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Not getting what you don’t not wish for

Posted on July 21, 2015 by

We’re sorry to keep going on about this, readers, but we’ve been going over and over it in our heads and we just can’t get it to make sense.

Below is the failed Labour amendment to the Welfare Reform And Work Bill:

wb1

As you can see, its sole intended purpose was to refuse a second reading to the Bill. Labour voted for their own amendment (an achievement, we suppose), which means they didn’t want to see the bill get a second reading.

You’re with us so far, right?

Labour’s amendment was defeated by 308 votes to 208. (Labour has 232 MPs, we’re not sure where the other 24 got to.) So then it was time for the government motion:

wb2

So let’s just recap what we know:

– Labour didn’t want the Bill to get a second reading.

– The motion proposed that it DID get a second reading.

– so the only logical thing to do is vote against the motion, you’d think.

Except they didn’t. Other than about a fifth of its MPs – who “rebelled” against the whip by voting for the thing their party actually said it wanted – Labour abstained.

There were no grounds for confusion. It wasn’t like the infamous vote in the Scottish Parliament where Labour voted against free school meals, but claimed they were partly doing so because the SNP had worded the motion in a partisan way such that it supported independence.

The vote last night was on the nine words in the picture above, nothing else. Labour said they didn’t want the Bill to get a second reading, then when asked “Do you want the Bill to get a second reading?”, decided to say “Um, well, we’re not sure”.

(Despite having said that they definitely didn’t in a vote just minutes earlier.)

It doesn’t matter how many times we write it down, it doesn’t get any less idiotic. It’s logically idiotic, semantically idiotic AND tactically idiotic, because nobody is happy with what happened. (Except maybe the SNP.)

Party members are resigning. Left-wingers are furious. The right-wing press is dishing out a kicking anyway. (Labour in crisis, jeered the Mail, while the Telegraph went with “absolute meltdown”.) Even the pro-benefit-cap Labour right thinks the abstention was a dreadful error. The party looks cowardly, purposeless AND incompetent.

Andy Burnham thinks it was a “mess”. Labour’s own MPs are so hopelessly confused that they’re going on television saying they voted against the bill when they didn’t, presumably because they can’t really believe what they just did either.

We have no conclusion to draw from this, because a conclusion requires reasoning and for reasoning there has to be logic. We’re just saying it over and over again in blind hope of some kind of epiphany. It’s basically group therapy. Feel free to join us.

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    180 to “Not getting what you don’t not wish for”

    1. Jim Thomson says:

      I think that right now would be a great time to rush out and buy shares in Squirrels ‘R’ Us.

      What a complete bunch of losers.

      I can’t even see any bizarre reason for abstention that might offer Lab a microscopically slim chance of redeeming themselves.

      Hung, drawn and quartered – by themselves.

      The only problem the rest of us, here in reality, have is that like some bunch of B movie zombies, they just keep on re-appearing.

    2. Morag says:

      The story Labour seem to be telling is that Osborne wanted Labour to vote against the bill, and therefore if they’d done that they would have played into his hands. So they didn’t.

      WHY would Osborne have wanted them to vote against? It makes no sense to me whatsoever. He wanted Labour to behave like the opposition, so they didn’t?

      Was this some sort of complicated double-bluff played on Labour because the Conservatives knew they couldn’t get all their MPs in to vote and thought they were in danger of being defeated?

    3. Donald MacKenzie says:

      What an outstandingly analytical piece. My compliments.

      It is impossible to get your head around this one.

    4. Paula Rose says:

      I would imagine that the party members leaving are of the left and therefore would have been likely to vote for Jeremy – now it makes sense.

    5. A Rykala says:

      Lots of comments on twitter about ‘changing (Labour) from the inside not the outside’.

      Thats like trying to stop a man eating lion by allowing it to eat you and then giving it indigestion.

    6. Alex Monaghan says:

      Wibble wibble Blair Brown burble burble

    7. Jim Young says:

      People of Cumnock don’t be alarmed! That noise you hear is just Keir Hardie turning in his grave!

      (Yes, I know he was cremated, not buried, but the phrase doesn’t work that way…..)

    8. But did you put the pellet with the poison in the vessel with the pestle?

    9. Coolheads Prevail says:

      The Labour benches, AKA the New Bedlam home for the terminally bewildered.

    10. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I would imagine that the party members leaving are of the left and therefore would have been likely to vote for Jeremy – now it makes sense.”

      Ha, good point.

    11. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Mr Murray – did you abstain?”

      “No.”

      “Don’t you mean ‘Yes’?”

      “No.”

      “So–that’s two no’s.”

      “Yes–I suppose so.”

      “So–that’s two negatives which makes a postitive, right?”

      “Em–well, I suppose so.”

      “So you DID abstain.”

      “Yes–I mean NO.”

      Someone put them out of their misery.

    12. ScottieDog says:

      Labour’s IT dept have just made a statement that their operating system was recently upgraded to Murphbot V3. A blairpatch will be made available this evening which should also remove the corbyn bug.

    13. Martin D says:

      Reasoning and logic left the party long ago. Whatever your views on the party in Scotland if I were in England I might be getting out the recall campaign documents in a great many constituencies.
      There is no excuse to let last nights vote happen the way it did when the chance to defeat it was was right there. To think that you can be effective at the committee level is completely daft when you are completely ineffective at everything else. Time for someone to form a new party in England who can dance with the SNP and step on the toes of the Torries.

    14. gordoz says:

      Parcel O’ … Doh !!

    15. Jim Thomson says:

      The only reason I can see for their behaviour is to justify having Corbyn elected as their leader.

      They need to ensure that they dump their right-wing hopefuls by surreptitiously engineering a left-wing revolt that has enough votes in it to give Corbyn a decent majority.

      The right-wing red tories will then slink back to their back-benches so they can concoct an even bigger fib about how they were misunderstood. Meanwhile, the rest of the red tories will pretend that they have “cleaned out” the bad people that lost them their “rightful” voters and that those voters can now return to the fold. – having just alienated EVEN MORE natural left wing supporters.

      Arseholes.

    16. Gordon Hay says:

      I think I’ve finally got my head around this.

      The purpose of Labour’s *Reasoned Amendment* was to allow them to register their opposition to allowing the bill a second reading – but in a way that would escape the notice of the majority of the so-called swing voters they believe they have to convince that Labour is electable by appearing to support benefit cuts.

      This also allows the likes of Ian Murray to claim he voted against the bill because he voted for Labour’s (lost) amendment to deny the bill a second reading.

      Or something…

    17. Robert Louis says:

      I don’t like to swear, but really, really, really, WTF is up with Labour??? I am truly astonished. They abstain from a vote, then tell the media that they voted against it. Have they truly lost the plot??

      Seriously, is William Hague drugging them all??

    18. Auld Rock says:

      Daaaaahhh!!!!

      Auld Rock

    19. Mealer says:

      FFS Rev,you’re not looking at the whole picture.When Mr Murray says he voted against the bill you have to factor in pairing.Cos that explains everything.Easy mistake for you to make,cos you’re not actually in parliament,where the important people go,so you can’t possibly understand what’s going on.Youre certainly not the right calibre of person to get an invitation to speak at the M.C.L.L.C

    20. SKapusniak says:

      They wanted to vote against the bill, only if they were also allowed to not vote against benefit caps.

      That the SNP joined with the Tories to prevent them from doing this proves SNP Bad.

    21. Hugh Kirk says:

      Sorry, can’t think this strategy through. It is beyond my capability for logical thought. I’d like to think there is a plausible purpose to this abstention like “sending the electorate a clear signal” and if it did then……..fuckedifiknowwhatitis.

    22. prj says:

      During the referendum you couldn’t separate the two parties. Maybe labour now relies that the ideology are the same making separation very difficult.

    23. Stoker says:

      And the Unionist Unions still back this lot of spineless cretins.

      And just a few short weeks ago these very same Unions had their members out on the streets marching against any “reforms” but they continue to back a sack full of Red Tory excrement.

      It’s time ALL the Unions dumped Slabber and got behind the SNP.

      btw, not a peep about Liar Murray on the 6pm BBC Scotland headlines.

    24. heedtracker says:

      STV teatime news just headlined with “Last night Labour failed to show a united front, SNP bad”

      Never mind Lab freak show, WTF are these weirdos huffing in UKOK newsrooms and where can you score some?

    25. Giesabrek says:

      Am I experiencing deja vu here? Did Labour also abstain from a Tory/Libdem budget last year that hammered the poor too? And after voting against some minor vote that allowed them to try and claim they voted against the main vote? If so then they clearly have form and were just as ineffective under Millibland as the current right-wing non-entity.

    26. Democracy Reborn says:

      On Twitter, Hothersall also makes the ‘defence’ for Labour abstaining that the Tories have a parliamentary majority, so essentially it would have made no difference if Labour had voted against.

      By that logic then, why table any amendments if the Tories are going to vote them down?

    27. Macart says:

      Chaos theory.

      Small changes to the initial stages of dynamic systems which render long term prediction impossible.

      Somebody swopped the rich tea biscuits for chocolate digestives at the tea break during their strategy meeting and the resulting sugar rush sent them all doolally.

      or

      They were paying lip service to opposition and fully intended to support the conservative government by giving their bill the easiest ride possible through the chamber.

      You takes your pick.

    28. Sunniva says:

      I know it’s confusing, but I think that’s how the Commons works. And I think it’s why Murray said that they had ‘voted against it’. You might have to retract your previous post. Murray is my MP, and before the election I contacted him to ask why he and Labour had voted against an SNP motion on fracking and he explained that they had their own anti-fracking motion and had voted for that and that he was angry the SNP were misrepresenting what had actually happenned. Petty, I know, but that seems to be how they work. They vote for their own motions, nobody else’s.

    29. caz-m says:

      Labour speak should be made an official language. It’s easy to start speaking it.

      All you do is talk pish for five minutes, ending in a outburst of blaming the SNP for every problem known to man.

      Fluent speakers include;-

      Ian Murray
      Kezia Dugdale
      Jackie Burd
      Gordon Brewer

      Plus, all employees connected with the Scottish Labour Party, BBC Scotland and the Daily Record.

    30. thorbor says:

      I think harmens deliberately making the labour party bottom out so when the new leader takes over they can only do things that make them look like their improving

      Either that or their trying to out tory the tories

    31. toobs says:

      @Gordon Hay,
      I think you got it one.
      They think they can adopt both faces.

    32. IvMoz says:

      Had to laugh at Andy Burnham:

      “It is quite clear that this is a party now that is crying out for leadership and that is what I have shown in recent days”

      “I as leader would have opposed this bill outright and would do so if I was elected leader”

      Why not show you’re leadership material by actually having a position now on something as huge as the Welfare Bill?

      He’s a human weathercock changing his position every interview.

      Wouldn’t surprise me if this fanatical Evertonian started supporting Liverpool, or Tranmere..

    33. The Isolator says:

      Sunniva@6.20

      Your taking the pish..right?

    34. jimnarlene says:

      Absolute lunacy.

    35. Stoker says:

      Murray MacGopher – The Toad In The Hole.

    36. Lesley-Anne says:

      Soap … a.k.a. Labor party or as it is now being re-branded … the Abstention party! 😀

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSaNWYHmUvI

    37. ScottieDog says:

      John Mcdonnell (labour): “I would swim through vomit to oppose the Tory welfare bill”

      There are few good ones still out there. Murray couldn’t lace his boots

    38. Snowy bottles says:

      To take a principled stance one must first have principles. That is why labour abstained.

    39. Jimbo says:

      In their amendment Labour also affirms its belief that there should be controls on, and reforms to, the overall costs of social security.

      We should never forget that Labour walked through the lobby with the Tories in support of the Tory’s £30 billion austerity cuts.

    40. Conan_the_Librarian says:

      @ Sunniva 6.20

      “They vote for their own motions”

      Scatoliacracy?

    41. heedtracker says:

      Socialist worker MacTernan in Torygraph explaining the inexplicable by not explaining anything at all

      “Perhaps it’s best to start at the beginning. When does Labour win? Whenever it proves to the voters that its head will rule its heart. British politics is actually pretty easy to understand. The public trust the Tories on the economy and trust Labour on the NHS. All you need to do to win an election is to neutralise your negatives and let your positives do the work.”

      At least half his Scotland region public don’t trust any of them at all. Another legacy of the red tory boys. But once again, its all up to BBC in Scotland to coral and terrify just enough Scottish vote to keep the whole teamGB shebang farting along.

    42. Escarii says:

      I Wonder if perhaps Mr.Corbyn could be convinced to form a new, English left-wing party? Take all the traditional labour voters with him and leave the Blairy mess to finally win those awkward marginal seats. And none but them.

    43. Johnny says:

      Sunniva @ 6:20pm

      Might be how they do it, but to people in the outside world it simply looks like ‘couldn’t be bothered signifying opposition to Tory policies’ while all the other parties could. So they can never mind their ‘we only vote for our own motions’ excuses.

    44. Balaaargh says:

      Rev Stu said,

      “Labour has 232 MPs, we’re not sure where the other 24 got to.”

      Ummm… Pairing? Sheesh, where have you been?! 😀

    45. Johnny says:

      Isolator:

      has to be, because otherwise why weren’t the SNP, DUP, SDLP, Lib Dems etc etc etc ‘only voting for their own motions, nobody else’s.

      Of course, you would expect that they will most enthusiastically vote FOR their own motions but I fail to see how that stops you voting AGAINST motions you do not like which were put forward by somebody else. Lunacy.

    46. Al-Stuart says:

      Might I respectfully recommend people share this list of shame, so that these political hypocrites are called to account for their disgraceful conduct.

      LIST OF SHAME – LABOUR LEADERSHIP WHO FAILED TO VOTE AGAINST TOXIC TORY WELFARE REFORMS.

      Andy Burnham
      Yvette Cooper
      Liz Kendall

      Harriet Harman
      Ed Miliband

      Ian Murray – Exposed as a liar by WoS.

      LIST OF SHAME – LABOUR MPS WHO FAILED TO VOTE AGAINST TOXIC TORY WELFARE REFORMS.

      Heidi Alexander, Rushanara Ali, Graham Allen, Jon Ashworth, Ian Austin, Adrian Bailey, Kevin Barron, Margaret Beckett, Hilary Benn, Luciana Berger, Clive Betts, Roberta Blackman-Woods, Tom Blenkinsop, Paul Blomfield, Ben Bradshaw, Kevin Brennan, Lyn Brown, Nick Brown, Chris Bryant, Karen Buck, Richard Burden, Liam Byrne, Ruth Cadbury, Alan Campbell, Ronnie Campbell, Sarah Champion, Jenny Chapman, Vernon Coaker, Ann Coffey, Julie Cooper, Rosie Cooper, Jo Cox, Neil Coyle, David Crausby, Mary Creagh, Stella Creasy, Jon Cruddas, John Cryer, Judith Cummins, Alex Cunningham, Jim Cunningham, Nicholas Dakin, Simon Danczuk, Wayne David, Gloria De Piero, Stephen Doughty, Jim Dowd, Jack Dromey, Michael Dugher, Angela Eagle, Maria Eagle, Clive Efford, Julie Elliott, Louise Ellman, Natascha Engel, Bill Esterson, Chris Evans, Paul Farrelly, Frank Field, Jim Fitzpatrick, Rob Flello, Colleen Fletcher, Caroline Flint, Yvonne Fovargue, Vicky Foxcroft, Mike Gapes, Barry Gardiner, Pat Glass, Kate Green, Lilian Greenwood, Nia Griffith, Andrew Gwynne, Fabian Hamilton, David Hanson, Harry Harpham, Helen Hayes, John Healey, Mark Hendrick, Stephen Hepburn, Meg Hillier, Lady Margaret Hodge, Sharon Hodgson, Kate Hoey, Kate Hollern, George Howarth, Lindsay Hoyle, Tristram Hunt, Rupa Huq, Huw Irranca-Davies, Dan Jarvis, Alan Johnson, Diana R Johnson, Graham Jones, Kevan Jones, Susan Elan Jones, Mike Kane, Barbara Keeley, Stephen Kinnock (your father must be so proud), Peter Kyle,
      Chris Leslie, Emma Lewell-Buck, Ivan Lewis, Ian Lucas, Holly Lynch, Fiona Mactaggart, Justin Madders, Khalid Mahmood, Shabana Mahmood, Seema Malhotra, John Mann, Gordon Marsden, Chris Matheson, Steve McCabe, Kerry McCarthy, Siobhain McDonagh, Pat McFadden, Conor McGinn, Alison McGovern, Catherin McKinnell, Alan Meale, Jessica Morden, Lisa Nandy, Melanie Onn, Chi Onwurah, Albert Owen, Matthew Pennycook, Toby Perkins, Jess Phillips, Bridget Phillipson, Steve Pound, Lucy Powell, Yasmin Qureshi, Angela Rayner, Jamie Reed, Steve Reed, Rachel Reeves (IDS Cheerleader), Emma Reynolds, Jonathan Reynolds, Geoffrey Robinson, Steve Rotheram, Joan Ryan, Naseem Shah, Virendra Sharma, Barry Sheerman, Gavin Shuker, Andrew Slaughter, Ruth Smeeth, Andrew Smith, Angela Smith, Jeff Smith, Nick Smith, Owen Smith, Karin Smyth, John Spellar, Keir Starmer, Wes Streeting, Gisela Stuart, Mark Tami, Gareth Thomas, Nick Thomas-Symonds, Emily Thornberry, Stephen Timms, Jon Trickett, Anna Turley, Karl Turner, Derek Twigg, Stephen Twigg, Chuka Umunna, Keith Vaz, Valeria Vaz, Tom Watson, Catherine West, Alan Whitehead, Phil Wilson, Rosie Winterton, John Woodcock.

    47. cearc says:

      The SNP sat themselves in the official opposition seats this afternoon.

    48. heedtracker says:

      Torygraph says research in London shows “Scots ‘are more Right-wing than the English'” Confused?

      https://archive.is/kRjAK

      So if you are not getting what you didn’t wish for Scots, the monumentally historic liars at the Daily Torygraph say its because you’re further right than an English tory.

      No wonder there are so many Scottish tory MP’s in Westminster, sitting with Fluffie.

      Findings from these fcuk heads http://www.niesr.ac.uk/about-us

    49. steveasaneilean says:

      It’s a right old boorach.

      Mr Darling has come out for Liz Kendall as their next leader – the Oxbridge graduate, former think tank researcher and Labour special adviser, who even the supposedly left-leaning Guardian described as “ultra-new Labour”.

      In his statement supporting Kendall Darling says “the centre is a good place to be” and that Kendall “best understands the need for change” (by which is meant a shift to the right).

      Not once does he address the fact that his party was annihilated in Scotland by a left-of-centre, anti-Trident, pro-nationalisation, anti-austerity movement.

      Indeed his only reference to the SNP is this: “Remember: we won the referendum decisively as Nicola Sturgeon admitted only last week. It was confidence and self-belief that won it”

      They really don’t get it. They have abandoned those who need them most trying to play catch up with “gloves off” neo-liberal capitalism.

      I really hope they do elect this “ultra-Blairite” as that will finish them in Scotland.

    50. Juteman says:

      It’s obvious. SNP baaaaad, the bastirts!

    51. caz-m says:

      I think that Harriet Harman would have had behind the scenes meetings with David Cameron regarding this Welfare Bill.

      After all, they are the political face of the English Establishment. It’s all a charade.

      The big Establishment picture would get priority.

      Party loyalties are a distant second place and peoples feelings don’t even enter the equation.

    52. DickieT says:

      Just proves that they never even read the bill – they just blindly follow their leader and the other Labour sheep.

      Labour’s Scottish meltdown is now seeping slowly across the rest of the UK as people wake up to what a bunch of self serving liars they really are

    53. Bob Mack says:

      @sunniva,
      The problem with voting for their own motions and no one else’s is that their own are total nonsense and designed to misrepresent what they really want.
      No -one I know misunderstood the fracking vote.
      It was as evident as the one on welfare last night. They voted for their Party,and not for the people.That is what is unforgivable.

    54. Tony Little says:

      From my Twitter timeline yesterday this exact point came up. My inclination was as follows. It is all part of a pattern of collusion between the MSM and UK Labour. But they still can not understand that there is now a new media presence, and increasingly people are using it! (Sorry rev I don’t know how to post this as a pic!)

      Mhairi Hunter Jul 20
      @WingsScotland apparently they will vote for their amendment at 1st reading then abstain on 2nd reading.

      Rab Dickson Jul 20
      @MhairiHunter What’s the point?

      Anthony Peter Little Jul 20
      The point is that they can claim (with compliant MSM) that they DID in fact vote against the bill.

      QED

    55. Grouse Beater says:

      Pontius Pilate faces the critical decision.

      After thought and debate he decides to wash his hands of the responsibility. He abstains.

    56. wee folding bike says:

      There is some logic in Andy Burnham’s position. If he aspires to be leader in a few weeks he can’t be seen to go against the current leader. If he did then he could hardly complain when people ignored his instructions.

    57. Al-Stuart says:

      MELTDOWN…

      http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/welfare-vote-boosts-support-for-jeremy-corbyn-in-labour-leadership-race-10404242.html

      At least Jeremy Corbyn is getting a good outing.

      Though what on earth Labour is for is beyond me.

      Keir Hardie must be burling in his grave.

    58. Malky says:

      I have only six words (seven if you count the contraction of ‘is’) in reply to all of this: Kezia Dugdale is Scottish Labour’s Frontrunner

    59. I just hope that WE, The media, SNP Politicians at every opportunity from now and ever, never let the public forget what the Labour Party or Abstention Party did last night.

    60. Jimbo says:

      Labour’s motions are shit.

    61. gordoz says:

      Labour are so ‘now’ against Independence that they may abstain in next Ref vote – 🙂

    62. galamcennalath says:

      I saw on Twitter someone referring to Labour as “the Tory reserve team”. 🙂

    63. Murray was telling the truth when he said: “we opposed the Tory cuts”

      By “we” he means, “all of Scotland’s representatives at Westminster”.

      [which can be interpreted as a true statement, if you write off Fluffy, Cardboardcutoot and the Red Panda as statistical errors]

    64. Grouse Beater says:

      WFB: There is some logic in Andy Burnham’s position.

      If you put your temporary preferment before the welfare of the people who elected you I suppose there is logic in it.

    65. tartanfever says:

      Picking up Morag’s point from earlier.

      I think the bill has a couple of positive clauses regarding apprenticeships or something. Harman was afraid that voting against the bill would give the Tories a free hand to accuse Labour of voting against job creation.

      Those positives in the bill are merely piecemeal and clearly are what Harman says they are, a Tory trap. However, the majority of the bill is overwhelmingly about cutting the welfare budget, something we know that Labour actually support and have said so for many months when Balls was still around. Harman is scrabbling around looking for excuses and hoping the pitiful explanation they have arrived at will satisfy the scrutiny of TV journalists who don’t ask questions but merely repeat party press releases.

      It seems that when bills are being formed and written or amendments suggested by the opposition, these are mainly designed to allow said party a get out clause with which the can repeat endlessly to the press.

      This pitiful state in politics will unfortunately continue until the likes of the BBC start doing proper news and asking awkward questions, until then it’s not about politics – it’s just about PR.

      In some ways Ian Smart was correct with that tweet last night, most people in the country don’t have a clue what Labour are doing.

    66. heedtracker says:

      Tony Little,

      “From my Twitter timeline yesterday this exact point came up. My inclination was as follows. It is all part of a pattern of collusion between the MSM and UK Labour. But they still can not understand that there is now a new media presence, and increasingly people are using it! (Sorry rev I don’t know how to post this as a pic!)”

      The collusion is red and blue Tory understanding perfectly that they need to keep up at least the pretence of opposition and especially in their Scotland region. Which is why they are coming across as dysfunctional shysters. That’s what exactly what they all are.

      Imagine how good it feels to be a UKOK Tory boy right now,, from No. 10 and No. 11, across the Home Counties and up in the blue English shires. Labour is dead, long live the red Tories, but we can’t let them know that out loud though.

      Purr purr

    67. IvMoz says:

      O/T

      A synopsis of Reporting Scotland tonight:

      Ian Murray lie repeated unchallenged.

      Success of A&E waiting time target met last week given a totally negative spin by Bradford & Bird.

      Good news that the A1 has an excellent safety record turned into a dig at the Scottish Government for raking in speed camera fees. What do they want – multiple deaths?

    68. MrObycyek says:

      I have read that article a number of times now and I am still none the wiser. I think I need to go and have a lie down.

      On another point, I think during the debates in parliament that all members should be forced to sit in the chamber for at least half the duration of all debates. Any MP who does not should not be allowed a vote. Let them justify their pay rise. I am sick of watching BBC Parliament each day and seeing the Labour and Conservative benches with only a handful of people whilst the SNP and other smaller parties are always well represented. How is it right that Labour and Conservative members can just make an appearance at the end? They should be there during the debates. It is especially insulting when you consider how important some of these debates have been.

    69. yesindyref2 says:

      It was suspected that Labour were infiltrated by the Communists in the 60s and 70s. I suspect Labour have been infiltrated by the Tories over the last few years, and in high office as well.

      What am I saying? Am I mad? Am I stating the blindingly obvious, thinking it’s some deep investigative intellectual insight?

      Oh, right, I am.

      By the way Rev, keep the reporting / comment coming. The way the Herald’s going with its appallingly heavily loaded ads on the pages, requiring a ctrl alt del to get out of it, that’s one less “news” source “competitor” to worry about.

    70. Chic Thomson says:

      You know, soon there’ll be nothing left to do but bayonet the survivors,

      not that I’d say that of course!

    71. G H Graham says:

      This well tried tactic is colloquially known as a Labstention in which MPs Labstain. The explanation for this action is very easy to describe.

      When presented with a motion that would logically require a NO vote for example, when an MP Labstains they either don’t bother or vote YES, even though they meant to vote NO.

      Furthermore, a Labstention can mean a vote for a YES or a NO simultaneously but that definition is left to the discretion of the MP who Labstains. Unless the MP meant meant to just Labstain in its purest form which means that they didn’t actually care one way or another because they were not in the chamber but at one of the subsidised bars most probably, chatting up the barmaid.

      Thus, no matter what the motion or indeed what the instruction was from their whips, an MP who Labstains can basically do whatever they want & contradict themselves at will. This means that getting caught telling lies is much more difficult to prove because they can deploy a secondary defence tactic called “Weasel Words”.

      This complete abdication of any sense of morality & duty is quite common among those who Labstain & is used in conjunction with help from the BBC to deceive voters into believing that they have actually done something useful.

      The BBC therefore provides MPs who Labstain an easy platform from which they can broadcast party political messages without fear of getting caught telling lies to the general public.

      Finally, Labstainers who demonstrate a chronic pattern of this behaviour are eventually rewarded with an ermine robe, a pompous title attached to a fictitious barony & a generous expenses account.

      The take away message then, is that chronic Labstainers provide for the benefit of the general public, a rose tinted view of Westminster within which members are dutifully rewarded for serving their country with an unshakable belief in British values.

      Better Together.

    72. The Isolator says:

      Johnny@6.52

      Lol exactly,consider now the need for the Labour “rebels” to vote against at this reading.

      It’s either subterfuge abounds or one almighty dugs dinner.I reckon the Rev has them banged to rights though unlike the sycophantic grunts in the MSM.

    73. yesindyref2 says:

      @Paula Rose
      Very possible. Short term sacrfice to get Labour to where its infiltrators want – to the right of the Conservatives to take over from UKIP as the protest party, who seem themselves to be displaced on the far right by the Conservatives. It’s all go in the extreme rightness of UK politics, Dougal would be going round and round on his Magic Roundabout. Right hand turns only please.

      Incidentally, a sensible unionist poster in the herald posted that perhaps scaring off the imbedded posters (mostly “older” like me) is the herald’s intention, and I think he’s right. Apparently it’s better on tablets, and it could be they’re going for a different demographic, younger readers who they think might be more impressionable. Fat chance from the younger demographic I talk to.

    74. stonefree says:

      @ Stoker 6:38 pm

      “Murray MacGopher – Toad In The Hole.”
      And should be and often

    75. Dr Jim says:

      They don’t want to do anything rash that might jeopardize their chances of staying in opposition forever

      F.U.B.A.R

    76. Tinto Chiel says:

      Alert readers will remember that before the WM elections there was speculation her that there would be a Con-Lab pact (formal or otherwise) to dish the Nats and minimise their influence. Isn’t this really what we are witnessing here? No wonder the Rev sounds as if he’s on the verge of a nervous breakdown trying to make sense of it all.

      Effectively Labour are morphing into the Blue Toalies, sorry, Tories.

      PS: have I missed a post from Ronnie Anderson? Hope the Santa Ponsa Kid is all right and hasn’t been picked up by the seguridad.

    77. Clootie says:

      Sunniva @ 6:20pm

      It must be nightshift at the 77th.

      You of course may vote for your own motions BUT you can, and should, still vote AGAINST savage cuts which will damage the most vulnerable in society.

      Did you read your post before submitting comment or do you just get handed a batch at the start of your shift.

    78. O/T [slightly]

      another example of the nu-labour elite working for the blu-tories to undermine democracy

      http://web.archive.org/web/20150721123505/http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33608344

    79. Xaracen says:

      What contraction of “is”? “Labour’s” is a possessive term not a contraction of “Labour is”.

    80. Jimbo says:

      Grouse Beater wrote:

      Pontius Pilate faces the critical decision.

      After thought and debate he decides to wash his hands of the responsibility. He abstains.

      Good one GB. That could just as well be Labour’s sobriquet – The Pontius Pilates

    81. Harry McAye says:

      At least Scotland Today had a shattered Labour logo above I’m John Mackay, have Reporting Scotland ever done that? Also, Ian Murray didn’t repeat his lie on STV. I wondered if BBC were just letting the lie sink in with the viewers as they did make it clear just before he spoke that the majority of Labour MPs abstained. Had it been an SNP MP though I feel sure that Bird would have leapt right in there and pressed David Porter into commenting on the duplicity.

    82. Richard Smith says:

      If Labour had all voted against, and won, it would have been with the help of the SNP. The SNP would have been seen to have a share of the credit for helping Labour defeat the government.

      And we can’t have that, can we?

    83. Dcanmore says:

      Abstaining is a way of letting your opponent win (because you secretly agree with them) but being seen to be pissed off at what they are proposing.

      Labour had no intention of opposing anything that Osborne came up with. They had already said before the election that they supported the cuts and continuing austerity. So the Tories then called them up on it when the time came and Labour obliged.

      This is Labour accepting that the country is to be re-shaped and the Tories are the best people to do the shitty work in the hope that in a couple of elections time people will be right royally sick of the nasty party and Labour can step in ala 1997 ‘things can only get better etc etc.

      This is no longer a political landscape of one term and you’re out, these two parties realise that each turn can be three terms without serious opposition all based off 30 or so seats in the SE England. Why? Because you won’t be able to tell the difference between the two parties as they both persue the same mid-Atlantic neo-liberal solutions to the country’s problems.

      The real losers are us, this is evident from the way the Labour leadership race has turned out. The Left or Social Democrats don’t feature in a future Britain, we’re all supposed to be Tories from now on.

    84. 7 of Wales’ 24 Labour MPs voted against the bill as did our 3 Plaid and 1 Lib Dem. That adds up to 11 which is precisely the same number of Tories we have in Wales.

      With ‘socialists’ like these, who needs Tories?

      http://www.welshnotbritish.com/2015/07/did-your-mp-vote-against-tories-welfare.html

    85. One_Scot says:

      Sunniva, what planet are you from. Planet mental or what.

    86. mr thms says:

      I read that Labour abstained because the government’s welfare bill had things in it that they liked and that the reason why the voted against their own motion ‘That the bill be read a second time’ was because they were able to give the reasons why they were voting against the government’s welfare bill. I hope that makes sense. I’m still trying to figure it out.

    87. Lesley-Anne says:

      Finally!

      We have a REAL opposition party sitting on the official opposition benches. 😀

      https://twitter.com/jordi63/status/623572521422557186/photo/1

    88. One_Scot says:

      ‘MP’s can say whatever shit they want and it means whatever they want it to mean, I know it’s confusing, but it all makes perfect sense’. WTF.

    89. The Labour faithful are not happy with their party but they voted for the party at the election when Labour actually said `Labour will cut welfare more than the Tories `

      This was the Oxbridge educated Labour MP Rachel Reeves and it was said well before the election.

      So any and all Labour supporters stop with the crocodile tears.

      You make me sick the lot of you.

    90. McV says:

      This is what Murray was on about, wasn’t he?
      Serial misleader.

    91. call me dave says:

      The Lords be praised! 🙂

      It’s all part of the Mad Hatter’s tea party.

      https://archive.is/XAZDz

      PS:
      Somebody’s got to do it!

      https://archive.is/gMleW

    92. Iain More says:

      Well Toady Murray got nailed in a lie. It didn’t stop STV Aberdeen repeating the lie though, it isn’t just Disreporting Jackie that has a problem, it is STVs little reactionary Unionist outpost in Aberdeen that has possibly an even bigger problem.

      The crowing over jobs going in Shetland plus Murray being given time to spin a lie and STV Aberdeen is well beyond a joke as well now.

    93. mr thms says:

      The new opposition takes its rightful place.. 😉

      http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/21/snp-opposition-seats-blasting-labour-welfare-bill-stance

      “SNP takes to opposition seats after blasting Labour for welfare bill stance”

    94. Grouse Beater says:

      The Tories are involved in radical alteration to society’s architecture in order to make it fit the free market model and globalisation.

      They are using exaggerated debts as the excuse – borrowing from the doctrine of US-originated shock economics. The instruction for up to another 40% in cuts is part of their hidden agenda.

      In a phrase: they intend to remove our democratic rights in perpetuity.

    95. call me dave says:

      @Lesley-Anne

      Good init! Copied and posted to my collection.

      You’ve got to hand it to them for thinking up ways to make their point.

    96. One_Scot says:

      ‘One and one makes two, well it does most of the time, but it can also make three if you really want it to, in fact it can make any number you want, I know it’s confusing, but it really does make perfect sense.

      I have now lost the will to live and I am now banging my head repeatedly into the keyboard. Bnkgtnmjofzgzf gnfgnfgc fg,/ fgn

    97. msean says:

      What a waste of time writing up a clause then getting it to a vote. Then 24 of your own side don’t vote for their parties own amendment.

      Waste of time,waste of votes. I thought they had to make it hard for the Tories.

    98. Macart says:

      @Lesley Anne 8.23pm

      Ooft.

      Nice one. 😀

    99. boris says:

      It might be time to agree a one month armistice with the Labour and Tory Party’s in Scotland.

      In the quiet period the SNP leadership would offer a free transfer of membership for 2 years, from any party to the SNP.

      Where appropriate any new member would also be gifted a free signed copy of Gordon Brown’s yet to be published book “My Way Or The Highway. The death of the labour party”

    100. Lesley-Anne says:

      I have to admit CMD, Macart, when the S.N.P. get something that drives them mad they certainly don’t sit and grin and bare it … they get off their earse and do something about it. If what they do pisses off the Speaker or the RED/BLUE Tories then so much the better! 😀

      I know folks ask what’s the point of the 56 cause nothing they do will ever be voted through. That is not the point in my view. Doing things like this is just as important in my view because it gets them noticed as doing something to fight against the Tory machine. People WILL notice the 56 in future well before they notice any of the Abstention party members!

    101. One_Scot says:

      ‘In fact, you may actually think ‘Yes’ lost the referendum, but they won, we just made it look like they lost. I know it’s confusing, but it does make sense.’

      Okay, I’m done. I’ve got it out my system.

    102. caledonia says:

      they are getting a hammering on facebook with members throwing in their membership cards

      some have voted for labour for 40 years
      not sure his name but the liverpool mp who is going for the leadership said he would vote against it but instead abstained he seems to be getting a hammering as well

    103. call me dave says:

      @mr thms

      Thanks for the link. Bur better archived.

      https://archive.is/IQT8n

      Here is the archive page. Best to use it, it’s easy and reduces the MSM hits.

      https://archive.is/

    104. Croompenstein says:

      @Lesley-Anne –

      The real opposition..

      http://goo.gl/athK4p

    105. desimond says:

      If only Scottish Labour werent so wise…

      What will it take to support this Budget?
      10000 Apprentices!
      Good idea..lets create 25000!
      We vote No!

    106. Peter Brunskill says:

      Strange tactics this. If Labour had simply voted against the bill and raised their opposition to welfare cuts in the debate, nobody would have batted an eyelid.

      To change the metaphor, they seem to have shot themselves in both feet and both arms, when they didn’t even need to be holding a gun.

    107. Dr Ew says:

      I understand and share the outrage expressed by everyone on these pages and across the country. What I don’t share – and don’t really get at all – is the apparent surprise at Labour’s actions.

      Even under “Red Ed” (he took us too far left!) Miliband Labour was sanguine about benefit caps, welfare cuts and demonising “people who live their lives on benefits”. Others may remind me of examples, but right now I can barely recall a quibble from the Labour front bench about any single cut during the ConDem coalition; a lot of bluster and posturing, yes, but no actual coherent intellectual, political or economic argument against the overarching Osborne agenda.

      Be honest, did any regular reader of this site really expect anything better from a rudderless, leaderless, soulless, principle-free grab-bag of corporate shills?

      The SNP cannot do this all on their own, but they can work with others inside and outside Parliament to inspire and lead opposition across the UK AND galvanise Scotland to demonstrate we can and will do things differently – very differently. In the 2016 manifesto the SNP leadership has a golden opportunity to present innovative, constructive alternatives to the entire neoliberal agenda. Five more years of council tax freeze will cut no ice, I’m afraid.

      Let’s hope Nicola and John seize the moment.

    108. Lesley-Anne says:

      Well at least the speaker gets the point of the S.N.P. jibes even if no one else does Croomp. 😀

      On an aside.

      Thanks to CMD I am now aware that that odious rat bag of a politician Mundell is to make an extremely rare appearance in Dumfries on Friday. Funnily enough the Hootsmon doesn’t have the guts or the knowledge of what time this *ahem* appearance is to take place. None the less I think a wee daunter along the road on Friday may be called for … just to say hello to the abnoxious little toad you understand! 😀

    109. Dan Huil says:

      “If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn’t. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn’t be. And what it wouldn’t be, it would. You see?” Mad Hatter aka Ian Murray MP [and the Labour party]

    110. BUFFALO says:

      Why don’t “We” just attack ? We being the Yes Alliance. Our opponents are in utter leaderless disarray. Let’s call the Holyrood 2016 election early i.e. before South/North Labour choose their Aunt Sally bosses. Make Holyrood 2015 (?) an Independence Yes/No decider. We WIN. Simples.

    111. Lenny Hartley says:

      Apparently Harriet Harman is a cousin of David Cameron (don’t know how close)

      Could that have a bearing on Labours inaction?

    112. Paula Rose says:

      Diary entries for the 24th July for David Mundell MP not available.

    113. Macart says:

      @Lesley Anne

      Oh they’re making their presence felt alright. Using any and every opportunity granted. Now I wonder just which crafty and experienced head has been coaching all these newcomers in how to work the system and procedures of the house so effectively?

      I recall a fella not so long ago who knew how to grab a headline right out from under the big two in the house. Spookily using some very familiar tactics. 😀

      You can’t keep a good man down. 😉

    114. X_Sticks says:

      So when Johann said that “Scots genetically incapable of making political decisions?” she was (as she often was in her few public outings) just a bit confused.

      It wasn’t the Scots she meant it was most of the UK Labour party she meant.

      I simply cannot get my head round what they have just done. Beyond me. Labour seem to have lost most of their marbles. Sad really.

    115. Rock says:

      Jeremy Corbyn will not be allowed to become Labour leader.

      If he does manage to pull it off, he will be sabotaged from both within and outside.

      He seems to be a genuine socialist.

      This is the moment for him to abandon Labour and start a Socialist Party with a clear agenda.

      Most of the other Labour MPs who rebelled will probably join him.

      We in Scotland have the SNP but South Britain badly needs a party which is genuinely on the side of the disadvantaged in society.

      It just doesn’t make any sense for genuine socialists to remain within the totally dishonest right wing Labour Party.

      If they still continue to remain within Labour, they are basically cowards.

      They should have left at the time of the illegal war.

    116. galamcennalath says:

      StevieMcB says:
      “OT Catalan shows the way”

      Very interesting. I don’t think Scotland is quite at that stage – firstly, I am sure a higher percentage of people in Catalunya are clear they want independence, and secondly they appear to being forced into a corner where UDI is the only option.

      It will certainly be worth watching because Scotland may have to follow their lead.

    117. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Red Tories bide their time – they’ll get their noses back in the big trough eventually.

      It’s like the old Jackie Gleason joke – why are prescriptions undecipherable to the ordinary citizen? It’s because legible script would give the game away – the prescription is really a note from the doctor to the pharmacist: ‘I got my money – get yours!’

    118. Lesley-Anne says:

      Paula Rose says:

      Diary entries for the 24th July for David Mundell MP not available.

      I wonder why? 😀 😀 😀

    119. Allan says:

      You make it sound easy Rev. I’m surprised they’re still voting for their own motions ‘cos by the looks of things they must be pretty runny by now. (Sorry for the toilet reference, but I haven’t been able to stop linking Labour & sh*te for years now).

    120. dakk says:

      Labour are either collectively as thick as shite or are brilliant strategists who will reinvent the Party as an electoral powerhouse.

      I’d go with the former.

      Either way, add war crimes to their CV and that is why they deserve decent minded people’s opprobrium – Jeremy Corbyn and every other ‘Labour leftie ‘ included.

    121. gorbalito says:

      LABSTAINERS: They certainly left a permanent stain on this once peoples party. So very, very sad.

    122. yesindyref2 says:

      Apparently David Torrance has already ghost-written an autobiography ready for whoever becomes leader of the Labour Party. Its title is:

      “X: My life as David Cameron’s apprentice”.

    123. Phronesis says:

      If ever there was a situation that required our elected MPs to pursue an ethical concept of the good and agree what is morally right it was during this debate. But no- we have a defeatist response (not withstanding the ‘rebels’ including the fab 56) that reduces the socio-political order of ethics and morals to a hologram image of a political party that once stood for something.

      There are many dimensions to poverty- the three I’s- the incidence of poverty (the headcount ratio)/the intensity of poverty (the income-gap ratio)/ the inequality of poverty (those who are below the poverty line). Under this WM government all will increase although statistical manipulation and erasing definitional boundaries will ensure that there are no meaningful counts.

      But poverty will be visible, it will be financially costly to everyone. There will be many impoverished families facing an uncertain future and there will be many hovering on the boundary of poverty unable to sustain any more financial shocks. This current government’s legacy to young people across the UK-most are consigned to being 3rd class citizens on a sinking ship without the hope of a life jacket.

    124. Lee Thompson says:

      The Labour game plan has remained the same despite the Westminster election and the local elections looming! The plan is simple, let the conservatives do whatever they want until the electorate vote for them because things are so bad. It’ll be too late to change anything so they’ll blame it on the previous administration for 10 years (just like last time) Our Imperial Overlords of blue, red and yellow persusions want exactly the same same thing the workers in the gutter with the Imperial jackboot on our neck! The only reason the welfare state was created was because the wealthy were terrified communism would take over and they would all of been deposed! (Denis Wheatley’s postcard to posterity on utube puts some context as to the situation after the second world war)

    125. caz-m says:

      Leslie-Anne

      That invasion onto the opposition benches by the SNP just made my night.

      Brilliant!

      Anarchy in Westminster. Keep them comin.

    126. Lesley-Anne says:

      I think that was what the Tories, RED BLUE and YELLOW, were most terrified of before May 7th Caz. 😀

    127. caz-m says:

      Labour leadership race.

      YouGov.

      Corbyn 43%

      Burnham 26%

    128. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Lenny Hartley –

      PIE-heid Harman is related to Dish-face Cameron?

      Seriously?

      FFS…

      On a happier note, comment 440k will probably happen soonish. 🙂

    129. call me dave says:

      “Scotland is a northern maritime nation and it is shocking that the UK Government needs to be shamed into taking its northern defence responsibilities seriously.”

      https://archive.is/M5so1

    130. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Ach, bummer, 444k was passed some time ago – I hadn’t ‘refreshed’ in the way I ought to have done.

      Never mind (hic)…we can look forward to 444,444. Paula Rose does like a bit of foreplay, so I warrant she’ll be interested.

    131. Effijy says:

      Sorry O/T.

      Just watched STV news at ten.
      In the last segment, they showed the space suit worn by Neil Armstong on his first walk on the Moon.

      You get a very clear look at the soles of the boots on the suit,
      and then later an archive shot of the first footprint on the Moon.

      The print is absolutely Nothing like the sole shown on the suit.
      No comparison what so ever, as different as can be!

      Can anyone come up with a reason as I really want to believe
      it happened???

    132. Legerwood says:

      Andy Burnham was quoted in The Guardian as saying he abstained because he did not want to split the party.

      So there you have it. Party before people everytime. Party before helping children out of poverty.

      And Labour wonders why people won’t vote for them!

    133. Grouse Beater says:

      I’m sorry, I don’t care who they are…

      I’ve stopped work for a few minutes, switched channels for some news, and there in all their dual smugness are two balloons discussing Scotland with our provincial Sarah.

      I simply can’t take seriously pundits on politics who are empty clothes horses, preening in front of mirrors, hours spent choosing eccentric attire before appearing in front of the cameras.

      Jeezus, one in a sweatshirt with a plunging neckline and a face screen-printed on the belly, the other a full beard, cravat and waistcoat under hot studio lights.

      Did I hear a word they spoke? Did I hell.

      Too busy wondering how two smug asses earning good fees can dress so differently and so badly.

    134. Big Jock says:

      Effijy.My theory has always been they did land on the moon. However the films could not survive the hostile environment. They had to recreate them in a studio for public consumption.

    135. caz-m says:

      The dried up and dying Red Rose of Labour:

      The National,

      https://twitter.com/ScotNational

    136. Grouse Beater says:

      “I am today…” announces Osborne at the Dispatch Box.

      Who begins a sentence “I am today”?

      I am today going to Greggs for some bacon rolls.
      I am today posting on Wings Over Scotland.
      I am today arresting you for vagrancy.

      Osborne is an Etonian and he can’t speak plain English. The phrase is, “Today I am”!!!

    137. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Effijy –

      Best not to raise dodgy questions about that stuff, elsewise Buzz Aldrin might punch you in the face:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wptn5RE2I-k

    138. a2 says:

      Brownites… following their heroes cunning technique of not turning up to do their job, perfectly logical really.

    139. caz-m says:

      Update on Labour leadership,

      YouGov/Times LAB leadership poll has Corbyn winning when 2nd & 3rd prefs factored in
      Corbyn – 53%
      Burnham – 47%

    140. caz-m says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      Called into the Saltcoats Fair on Saturday afternoon and was expecting to see you and an SSP stall but you were nowhere to be seen. lol.

      I was down that way for a wee dip in the watter. I was the only one in the water by the way.

    141. Famous15 says:

      John McTernan on Newsnight says that anyone who supports Corbyn is a moron. He said this when the latest poll shows Corbyn is in the lead. Ergo the majority of Labour members are morons!!

    142. Grouse Beater says:

      “The election campaign has been a disaster from beginning to end”, says John McTernan, sliding over the glaring fact he organised the Scottish end of it.

      “Labour members voting for Corbyn are morons,” he adds.
      Funny he should use the term ‘moron’. I was thinking that very thing as he waffled on to Kirsty.

    143. Fireproofjim says:

      Well, with the possibility of Jeremy Corbyn becoming leader of the Labour Party it is safe to say that they are totally split and unlikely to be in any shape to form government,or opposition at either Westminister or Holyrood for many years.
      So I guess it is just us now.
      We should be proud of our part in the demise of such a duplicitous and treacherous bunch of self-servers.

    144. caz-m says:

      You do realise that the downfall of Westminster was started by the YES campaign.

      Give yourself a big pat on the back.

    145. Mosstrooper says:

      You know Macbeth could have been talking about Labour when he says;

      Life’s but a walking shadow,a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.

      Yep, sounds like the Labour party to me

    146. HandandShrimp says:

      I can see why Corbyn is proving attractive to ordinary rank and file Labour people who want their party back.

      God knows what the party machine players like McTernan will do if he wins though.

    147. Thepnr says:

      Looks like McTernan still has a role to play in the demise of the Labour Party.

      What a moron lol.

    148. Grouse Beater says:

      Hand&Shimp God knows what the party machine players like McTernan will do if he wins.

      “Today I am” considering the delicious thought that Corbyn might be in a position to fire McTernan!

    149. heedtracker says:

      I really like Jeremy Corbyn because he’s an actual leftie and he’s a normal human being, not like any of their sneaks, creeps, thugs and goons that Project Feared us all, then got booted out May 7.

      And this is great too. Rise up and be a party, Labour, like ours!

      https://archive.is/J8M03

    150. dakk says:

      I am today declaring that the frock Kirsty Wark was wearing on Newsnight is an affrontery to haut couture.WTF

      McTeirnan was freaking over the Corbyn polls,and his hatred was palpable.

      They might be going down

    151. GrahamB says:

      Out chapping doors this evening for the upcoming by-election, came across a couple who had voted Labour in the GE but now were ‘disenchanted’. They were certainly not voting Lab again and if they voted at all it would be SNP. So the decline continues, the Welfare Bill disgrace last night seems to be the last straw.
      Down the street we met some guys in suits, collars and red ties – Labour’s ‘foot soldiers’, led by none other than Deputy Dug’s opponent, Ken somebody. There was a strong smell of desperation in the air!

    152. Paula Rose says:

      Ta Ian Brotherhood 10:44 – hopefully Rock will be able to enjoy the moment xx

    153. Morag says:

      The “film” from the moon was beamed live to Earth as it happened. They didn’t have to bring it back in canisters. It wasn’t actually film.

      Some of us got up very very early in the morning and went to our cousin’s house and made her put on the TV so we could see it happening, live.

      I can’t believe I’m actually saying this.

    154. Grouse Beater says:

      Heedtracker: I really like Jeremy Corbyn

      He was the committee member who warned his chairman he’d withdraw if the chairman continued with a prejudicial attitude toward SNP contributors. Not getting the civility and respect he thought the SNP deserved – he got up and left. That was the moment I got to know him better.

    155. Morag says:

      Graham, which by-election is this? We’ve been told to get to Midlothian to help out in one that’s coming up. Is it the same one?

    156. Thepnr says:

      @Grouse Beater

      He was the committee member who warned his chairman he’d withdraw if the chairman continued with a prejudicial attitude toward SNP contributors. Not getting the civility and respect he thought the SNP deserved – he got up and left. That was the moment I got to know him better.

      Can you tell me more about that event?

    157. call me dave says:

      @Morag

      Moon landing.

      Watched it in my first house, on my first tv, along with my brother who just lived up the street but came in to keep me company through the small hours. 🙂

      History!

      PS:
      Tony Teflon Blair making a speech tomorrow I believe to shore up the right and warn of labour lurching to the left.

      Surely the labour ball of string must be fully unravelled now, revealing …. nothing!

      HoC away on their hols tonight our 56 making their way North to their constituencies. I’m sending mine a wee card to say well done.

    158. GrahamB says:

      Morag at 12:14
      Anderson/City in Glasgow, for a replacement councillor for Alison Thewliss MP. Think there are 4 vacancies for councillors in Glasgow and several others round the country. Election Day here is August 6 so it’s a short, sharp campaign and as it’s a by-election it’s first-past-the-post and not PR as in the full local elections.

    159. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @caz-m –

      You go to Saltcoats, and swim in the sea?

      If you head south, and get anywhere near the ‘point’ at Stevenston, give me a wave so I’ll know you’re not a seal.

      🙂

    160. Rock says:

      Paula Rose,

      “Ta Ian Brotherhood 10:44 – hopefully Rock will be able to enjoy the moment xx”

      I might be wrong, but it seems that when you are sober you make reasonable posts.

      Unfortunately, most of the posts you make seem to be when you are not sober.

      I only mention your name when a post has something to do with you.

      Why do you have to mention my name when it has nothing to do with me?

      As to deciding not to have children to save the world, how many pets have you had in your lifetime, if any?

    161. Rock says:

      Moon landing.

      To dispel all the conspiracy theories, they could have sent more men to the moon.

      Why has a second moon landing not happened in nearly fifty years?

      The footprint question is interesting but no one has answered it yet.

      If the establishment says something is true, it is almost certainly false.

    162. crazycat says:

      @ GrahamB

      as it’s a by-election it’s first-past-the-post and not PR as in the full local elections

      Are you sure about that? Council by-elections usually still use STV, with second and lower preferences distributed, but since there is only one seat to be won instead of however many the ward contains, it is effectively an example of AV.

    163. crazycat says:

      @ Rock at 1.06

      There have been 6 manned moon landings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Apollo_missions#Manned_Apollo_missions), though none since 1972.

      I don’t remember any of them apart from the first, so it seems that they were very low key.

    164. dakk says:

      GB. 12.13

      Jeremy Corbyn may come across as decent enough but how can he still thole a party that committed war crimes in government.

      Its no different from still being in a German Nazi party now they have had leadership change.Or do thousands of Iraqi lives not count.

      No matter what party commits genocide I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole,what decent person would.

      We’re not talking about a few benefit cuts here or political dogma.Warmongering Labour killed thousands of innocent people.
      Harold Wilson’s Labour government also has history in the Chagos Islands etc.

      I wouldn’t trust any of Labours number ever.

    165. call me dave says:

      Aye like this you mean with the million dollar man. 🙂

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKbwdTCL8rA

    166. Stoker says:

      gorbalito wrote:
      “LABSTAINERS: They certainly left a permanent stain…”

      Aye, and the branch dwellers shall be known as Slabstainers
      because come 2016 they’ll be shitting themselves big time.

    167. Marco McGinty says:

      I didn’t see the news item on the moon landings, but I believe the reason that the footprints don’t match with the preserved spacesuit is because when the moonwalks took place, overboots were used. Sadly, many of these items (boots, gloves, backpacks, etc.) were left behind on the surface of the moon.

      If you look at this website http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/A11NAAFlownSuit.html you will note pre- and post-flight images of Armstrong’s suit, and if you look closely at the pre-flight image, you will see the overboots towards the left boot/shin area.

      I would be wiling to bet that the sole of the overboot would be a perfect match for the footprint on the moon.

    168. Ken500 says:

      If they can’t run a Hospital. They can’t run a country. Why would anyone be a Labour/Unionist member after Iraq. Why would anyone be a Tory/LibDem/Green member in Scotland? They have shafted Scotland forever. It is a small membership but totally destructive. No wonder they have such terrible politicians. They are so annoying and make people so angry.

      Alex, Nicola and Co are so popular they get mobbed with well wishers everywhere they go. They can’t get down the street for folk wanting to say Hello, hug them and shake their hand and take photos. They are inundated with good wishes and support. That is were they get their confidence. The people’s support. It is phenomenal, unprecedented. People know there is a better way, and they appreciate it.

    169. Grouse Beater says:

      McTernan – all your questions answered:

      https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2015/05/18/mack-the-knife/

    170. jackie g says:

      Scotland’s only Conservative MP to open a food bank
      To help people struggling with welfare reform.

      He will open a Trussell Trust food bank in Dumfries on Friday.

      Lesley Anne please give him a warm welcome!

      If the tories did Irony..

      😕

    171. The Moidart says:

      I can categorically deny the rumour that Devil Camoron and Harridan harman are cousins. If they were they would be married by now….

    172. Stoker says:

      The Moidart @ 9.12am: LOL 🙂

    173. Fred says:

      @ GB, so Mc Ternan’s never actually worked then? no surprise there! He looks like one of the junkie shoplifters who hang about the Barras.

    174. Rock says:

      crazycat,

      “There have been 6 manned moon landings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Apollo_missions#Manned_Apollo_missions), though none since 1972.

      I don’t remember any of them apart from the first, so it seems that they were very low key.”

      Or maybe they did not in fact happen?

      Western propaganda is more sophisticated that communist propaganda but it is still propaganda.

    175. Rock says:

      dakk,

      “No matter what party commits genocide I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole,what decent person would.”

      Tony Benn was always a fraud and the “left wingers” who remained inside the Illegal War party are basically cowards.

      Jeremy Corbyn seems to be a decent man, but like you say anyone who remained inside doesn’t have any credibility.

      Even if he becomes leader, he has absolutely no chance of changing anything in this rotten to the core party.



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