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Wings Over Scotland

More than numbers

Posted on March 09, 2017 by

First Minister’s Questions today (featuring stand-in FM John Swinney in a theatrical mood) was one long howl of “TOO WEE AND TOO POOR!”, with both Ruth Davidson and Kezia Dugdale using all of their questions to hark back to oil revenue forecasts from 2013 and insist that an independent Scotland would face economic apocalypse.


It was a dispiriting spectacle, and we found ourselves experiencing (not for the first time) pangs of sympathy for the remaining tiny rump of Scottish Labour voters, who must surely watch in broken despair at the antics of the hapless pack of squawking diddies representing their views in the Parliament.

But on the day that a new Ipsos MORI poll for STV found support for independence leaping to fractionally over 50%, we wondered how big a deal the economy really was for voters. And fortunately, we already knew the answer.


Because our Panelbase poll last month asked respondents how important the size of Scotland’s budget deficit was in terms of their support for independence, and the number who said it was “Extremely important” (38%) was only fractionally bigger than the number who considered it either not very important or completely irrelevant (36%).

The remaining quarter of the electorate – what one might reasonably consider the “battleground” voters who will decide the outcome – felt that the economy of an independent Scotland was only “moderately” important.

We suspect that as the details of Brexit increasingly unfold over the coming months, with the attendant disastrous effects on the economy of a Scotland within the UK, the Yes campaign will be very excited indeed about a starting position of 50%.

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  1. 09 03 17 13:56

    More than numbers | speymouth

207 to “More than numbers”

  1. Jazzscot says:

    Lets get this show on the road, Indyref2 bring it on!

  2. FatCandy says:

    Aye, watched FMQs, dispiriting indeed. Was like watching a pair of 5th columnists in full flow.

  3. heedtracker says:

    With a good YES campaign, it looks like we may really get our country back!

  4. Robert J. Sutherland says:


    Nah, “Disneyland” is what we have now, complete with all the clowns (as seen scattered on the opposition seats in Holyrood).

    Our “yes” will be to finally reach some kind of normality.

  5. JaceF says:

    They are obviously operating a Tory/Lab coalition, every week same united attack on a target topic.

    It’s really time to ask Labour supporters why they are supporting a party playing second fiddle to the Tories. They are willfully ignorant to the self harm they are inflicting upon themselves. From whom does Kezia receive her briefing on this weeks attack and does she do so with consent from the UK party?

  6. heedtracker says:

    Hope NO brings back this chump too.

    Blair McDougall?Verified account @blairmcdougall 24m24 minutes ago

    We should remember this isn’t an argument about oil. It’s about protecting the NHS, schools, welfare and pensions from catastrophic cuts.

    Blair McDougall?Verified account @blairmcdougall 22m22 minutes ago

    Oil is the foundation for that argument but we’ve got to keep bringing it back to public services, pensions,people’s benefits & tax credits.

  7. David says:

    Why not create a Scottish National bank that takes short positions in the oil market when the oil is on the down side (like when OPEC agreements mess up, or Saudi Arabia gets nippy, or when the Russians dont comply, or when the shale industry expands etc) to hedge against the drop in oil as one of our assets?

    In fact, a national bank run for Scotlands interests could do a lot more than just that.

    This is basic stuff and these clowns either dont know it or refuse to acknowledge it.

  8. Steve B says:

    All Swinney had to do was say to either opposition leader was: “Although you’ve not proved the too wee, too poor argument, you’ve proved the too stupid one”!

  9. Clootie says:

    Pound shop Kezia in full Tory Unionist froth.

    Well done Mr. Swinney for a great performance. Politicians who care about their citizens…are you listening Kezia.

  10. Graeme McCormick says:

    We have to demolish this argument for once and for all. Introduce Annual Ground Rent per square metre and abolish all other taxes. Ordinary folk will have much more in their pockets and more funding for public services.

  11. Macart says:

    Followed some of today’s FMQs and Mr Swinney acquitted himself well.

    As for Ruth Harrison and Kez? Bookends springs to mind. Well that and pretty grim. How much contempt do you have to hold for your constituencies and fellow citizens in order to continually tell them they are utterly incapable of managing their own affairs?

    There are of course only two possibilities here. Option 1. They do actually consider the population of Scotland uniquely and entirely incapable of succeeding as an independent nation. Option 2. They are lying through their teeth in favour of a system which has already turned the economy of the UK into a rolling omnishambles. Lying to protect party ideologies and a party system which has already proven catastrophic economically for the entirety of the UK.

    Neither is a very attractive thought and no, I don’t believe for an instant that the welfare of the general public crossed their minds.

  12. Mike says:

    I am at a loss to understand why when the price of Oil is sitting at 53 dollars a barrel with 1.4 million barrels a day being produced the UK Government only manages to take 60 million in revenues?
    I understand they have reduced PRT from 75% to Zero and they are using the results of this unbelievable self destructive policy to claim NS oil is unviable as an asset and is in terminal decline what I don’t understand is why the Scottish Government goes along with this farce and doesn’t challenge it?
    Potentially the UK can rake in a taxable proportion of 27 billion US dollars a year at the present price of Oil.
    At 75% that would be in excess of 20 billion and yet THROUGH CHOICE they literally give it away TAX FREE to Oil companies and charge ONLY VAT and Corporation tax giving them no more than little over 60 million after deductions are taken from the billions of public funding the same Government invested in NS Oil and gas extraction only a couple of years ago
    This is a blatant National betrayal nothing short of High Treason.
    Giving away public assets for no gain to Scotland or the UK. Perhaps members of the Government have a personal arrangement with some companies?

  13. findlay farquaharson says:

    woohoooo 50%| an rising

  14. Dr Jim says:

    Tweedledum and Tweedledee go behind the bike sheds and compare questions and decide to ask the same one because changing the words is too difficult and both get a belt in the gub from John (The slayer) Swinney who practically highland flung a wee dance routine with the merriment of it all

    I’m going to watch that all over again for the laughs
    especially Poundshop Dugs comedy top secret document waving gag secretly leaked from her secret printer by a secret informant secretly Hee Hee Hee

  15. Arbroath1320 says:

    I have not watched FMQ’s … YET. However others have and posted wee clips up on Twitter. I’ll just leave a couple of them here for folks to chew over. Get the popcorn oot for the second wee clip. 😉

  16. Mary McCabe says:

    I’ve been out canvassing three times recently and I notice a worrying trend: people who are happy to vote SNP forever and a day but have doubts about voting for independence, at least just now.

    In all cases its because theyve swallowed the two lines that independence depends entirely on oil and that the oil is more or less all gone.

    During the indyref I used to push the line (which I had read in varous sources) that even when the oil boom was at its height the Scottish economy was only 15% dependent on it because we had so many other assets whereas Norway’s economy is 25% dependent. And the vast majority of small independent countries have never had any oil.

    Lots of reports recently about the new oil fields being detected particularly west of Shetland. These aren’t being exploited yet as oil prices are low but theyre there for the future.

    Understandably these reports are hidden away in the back pages of the Unionist press, if they are reported at all, but why do our own SNP Ministers not push all these lines (alternative assets, new oil fields, other independent countries) in Parliament when the opposition repeatedly beats the “too poor” drum?

    And although you and I and nearly everybody who reads this site would vote for independence even if it meant the economy took a (temporary?) dive, most people are not as committed to independence per se and therefore need economic reassurances.

    We have to have these to hand to give them. Or we’ll also lose indyref2.

  17. ScottishPsyche says:

    Davidson and Dugdale – the Fran and Anna of Holyrood.

    Looks like Better Together are going to rerun all the 2014 arguments so we have been warned. These ridiculous FMQ ‘questions’. Will the SNP admit they are just rubbish and so is Scotland? Then some Yoon writes ‘they didn’t answer a single question’! SLab must be considering Roden’s position now.

    I agree about a Scottish Central Bank – to get it up and running. even as a digital entity, would seem sensible.

  18. John Walsh says:

    Too Wee Too Poor.
    The mantra of the Unionist parties.
    If the Yes campaign would start publishing our hidden wealth
    1 at a time i.e. Whisky exports £4.6bln and internal revenue figures and wait for the following stushie .
    Then next the games industry worth about £4bn Most Scots don’t know that this industry is bigger than Hollywood.
    science/ University research again £3 bn. Who knows.
    Then the fishing sector ( big bargaining chip with the Spanish)
    And my pet commodity WATER Scotland has 69% of all fresh water in U.K.
    Wait until 2039 when London starts to dry up. Why did Boris want a pipeline to divert water from Scotland .
    Anyway a campaign to show how wealthy we really are drip by drip, as that is how people start to accept facts.

  19. Ken500 says:

    Oil tax is 40%, from Jan 2016. The Oil companies cut back on exploration in 2010 when Osbourne increased the Oil tax by 11% (£2Billion) up to 80%. The Oil price fell 75%. Taxation was taken down to 60%. The Oil companies lost revenues worldwide. They could be using UK revenues to off set loses. They are selling assets to make more investments and exploration.

    Westminster shut down the Oil sector. More Oil & Gas gas has to be imported. Importing shale gas from the US. Gas from Norway. Spending £Billions on Hinkley Point. Exporting nuclear waste. Cutting imvestment in renewables and CCS. Banning wind turbines in England.

  20. heedtracker says:

    Bliar is not impressed by this poll at all, shock.

    Blair McDougall Retweeted The SNP

    Disgusting Blair McDougall added,

    The SNPVerified account @theSNP
    DFM: “I’ve got some advice for the Labour party, get on Scotland’s side.” #FMQs
    1 reply 2 retweets 0 likes
    Reply 1

  21. Arbroath1320 says:

    So apparently it appears that Scotland having close to 100 years worth of oil WEST of Shetland is not good enough for the RED and BLUE Tories.

    I have just one wee question. What are WE doing so wrong then? After all Norway seems to be just about coping OK with it’s burden of oil.

    Oops. I’ve just realised what WE are doing wrong. WE are letting Westminster steal all of OUR oil and its revenues and squander it all on their wars and tax cuts for the rich and infamous!

  22. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    We’re actually sitting on two gold mines. The oil is mature now but by no means finished, and there’s renewables to come. We could be the major energy supplier within the EU if we only had the self-confidence to trust ourselves.

    We could be bigger than Norway, even.

    Instead the nuclear-obsessed UKGov’s latest budget is hurting the solar power sector even harder than ever. It’s a direct attack on Scotland’s future wellbeing.

    It’s not just that the Unionists have this “too wee…” mantra; when they are in power, their negative blinkered mindset actively operates to prevent us becoming more prosperous.

    It’s not merely a self-defeating prophecy, it’s a deliberately-engineered self-defeating prophecy!

  23. frogesque says:

    Listened on Shortbread. Couldn’t believe Kez would parrot almost word for word what the other half of the Laurel and Hardy act spouted.

    Re 50/50 split and more males than females for Indy. The attacks on Healthcare and Schools is having an effect. It is, bye and large, women who worry more about these family issues.

    We need to promote how our schools, hospitals and healthcare are better than under Tory or Labour watch. Difficult when it can take a couple of weeks or more to get a regular ( non emergency) appointment at Drs. Tories in particular would just love us to have to pay for the privilege of paying twice for education and health.

  24. Mike says:


    Ancient history. PRT was reduced from 75% initially to 35% in 2016 and was further reduced to 0% later in 2016.
    At present there is ZERO tax on crude Oil production in the UK and because of UK Government public funding investment the Government is running at a loss less the revenues taken in by VAT and Corporation Tax which brings the total back to a small surplus of about 60 to 63 million.
    That’s a betrayal. The Oil companies at todays prices are raking in excess of 27 billion dollars a year TAX FREE!
    That’s a bigger tax give away than the Tories gave Google Yahoo and Amazon combined.
    Don’t tell me the UK establishment isn’t indulging itself in High Treason.

  25. Jim McIntosh says:

    findlay farquaharson says:
    9 March, 2017 at 1:19 pm

    woohoooo 50%| an rising

    Might even be better already. Hammond’s raid on the self employed could have a knock on effect. According to the ONS the average age of the self employed is over 47 (this was in 2014, it’s likely to be higher now). More than 32% are women and that figure is rising over twice as fast as men.

  26. David says:

    Rev Stu, who would you rate as the Top Ten Tory MSPs, and ditto for Labour MSPs? The ones who could actually help govern Scotland after independence?

    There must be some who will be able to shed their unionist party blinkers after indy, and work in Holyrood to build our new nation.

    There must be some…

  27. Big Jock says:

    A deficit under the present union ,is not an advert to retain the union. If the economy of Scotland is performing so badly. Then the question is should we remain in a union that prevents growth in Scotland.

    We only need to look at the demographics to see that one country in this union has expanded to 1000% of what is was in the 18th Century. Scotland meanwhile started with around 2.5 million and grew to 5.2 million. Less than 100% growth. Why is that, it’s not just geography.

  28. Bob Mack says:

    Too wee, too poor, too stupid?
    Well let us compare with our richer relatives down south.

    They have no oil
    They rely on Scottish gas production
    They are £1.8 trillion in debt.
    They have a deficit of around £60 billion.
    They are going to have to find a further £60 billion to exit the EU.
    They have no trade deals in place for exiting the EU.
    The pound is in free fall.
    They will also lose £60 billion a year if Scotland gains independence.
    They will have Gdp to borrowing of nearly 100%.
    They have no idea of the financial implications of Brexit
    They are going to lose many companies who will shift to the EU.
    England will be a joyous place to live yes?

    Too wee poor and stupid? Don’t think so.

  29. ballevullin says:

    Labour and Tories taking the same line each week at FMQs.

    Kezia Dugdale and Ruth Davidson are the Synchronicity Sisters.

  30. Dan Huil says:

    Davidson and Dugdale must really hate Scotland. There’s no evidence to suggest otherwise.

  31. Jazzscot says:

    @Robert J 1:02pm

    Good point Robert

    However it Disney really matter as the traveling circus is heading back to thon yoon toon darn sarf.

  32. Nana says:

    O/T sort of

    Oh dear I do hope Ruth and pound shop Ruth are sitting down

  33. Jack Murphy says:

    Scottish Parliament TV is placing First Minister’s Questions on YouTube.
    TODAY. Deputy First Minister,John Swinney MSP.

  34. Macart says:

    Nice one Nana. 🙂

  35. Macmina MacAllan says:

    There is plenty of evidence for the argument that we’re neither too wee nor too poor but unfortunately in September 2014 we provided firm written evidence that we are too stupid.
    That’s what we need to work on.

  36. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Big Jock @ 14:02:

    A deficit under the present union is not an advert to retain the union.

    That’s it in a nutshell. That message needs to be hammered home again and again.

    It’s the measure of how badly we are being managed by the UK, not of what we are capable of doing on our own.

    They incur a debt “on our behalf”, then accuse us of being useless. The nerve!

    We have to stop letting the Unionists get away with turning the victim into the perpetrator. Never mind arguing the nitty-gritty of GERS figures, just point out that whatever figure is produced, it’s clear evidence of the scale of the longstanding mismanagement we have had to suffer.

    And if we want, we can escape it. Be a proper small country like Denmark or Norway. Who are not exactly lusting to join the UK, are they?

  37. Tinto Chiel says:

    Arbroath1320: thanks for those clips of John Swinney Unleashed.

    Wow! In one bound he went from Honest John Bank Manager to Vlad The Impaler.

    Blood on the Yoon benches; great stuff.

    Whenever I see the unrelentingly negative, vapid bouts of cringing, corrosive drivel from Kez’n’Ruth and their kind, I remember the wise words of Good Ol’ Samuel Adams which a kind winger posted here some months ago:

    “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”

    Taxi for them both, please.

  38. Nana says:


    To quote Mr Swinney

    “It’s propped up the Uk economy for many years”

  39. Proud Cybernat says:

    BBC in Crisis…

  40. Dr Jim says:

    @Mary McCabe

    Following the oil price crash which was the Saudis decision BTW, Scotlands GDP fell by 1% that tells you how much having UK oil actually affects Scotland

    We never had the tax revenues in the first place they went straight to Westminster, we would only have those revenues if we were Independent and 100% of even a little is better than 8% of nothing

    Scotland the only country in the world ever to be told we have oil but keep getting poorer,
    because it’s always been a lie
    They told us 170 thousand folk have lost their jobs but what they didn’t tell you is those jobs were not all Scottish folk, they came from all over the world and went home again otherwise we’d have mahoosive unemployment figures and we don’t

    One other thing don’t have too much sympathy for oil and gas they wasted billions and made billions now what do they tell us, “we’ve become much more efficient at getting the oil out and made substantial savings” a bit horse has bolted and stable door there at the same time pretending they need more cash even though digging the stuff up has never been cheaper, they spent all their money just like Westminster spent all theirs, how come Norway can make a profit but we can’t, have they got better oil or a nicer colour or smell maybe

    There wouldn’t be new wells being sunk if there was no money in it, the Mariner field is drilling 42 wells as we speak

    Mugs is too good a word for us the stupid part is for the idgits who believe Unionist tripe
    We don’t need the stuff to survive but can you imagine the laugh if it went up after independence

  41. orri says:

    The reason the Treasury is making close to fuck all from oil is that they, or rather Osborne, were taxing it so heavily that the companies weren’t investing much if anything. In addition it’s kind of useful in a strategic sense to point to the fall in revenue rather than output or profits when there was even a remote chance that Scotland might vote for independence. Sacrifice more than you have to of potential revenue so you have a chance at getting more at a later date.

  42. Mike says:

    After just watching FMQs I am absolutely gobsmacked why the Scottish Government keeps allowing the Tory Lab narrative over NS oil revenues to continue unchallenged.
    The Tory Government deliberately and Ideologically decided to reduce NS Oil PRT revenues from 75% to 0%
    This ideological choice removed potential revenues of over 20 billion dollars from the UK economy.
    Kezia Dugdale actually stated that the NS industry was running at a loss to the UK. The NS industry is a Private sector enterprise! It is raking in 10s of billions of profit because it isn’t being TAXED on its crude Oil production!
    why is the Scottish Government allowing Yoonery to use this UK Government ideological choice as a stick to beat the economic argument for Scottish Indy without challenge?
    Christ its frustrating having to watch this level of duplicity go by without argument or challenge.
    The Scottish Government is failing to respond properly to these baseless claims and bare faced lies. AGAIN.
    They failed to do it during Indyref 1 and they don’t seem to be trying to challenge it now.

  43. yesindyref2 says:

    Didn’t see this, hope nobody minds if I repeat 2 postings from previous thread.

    The IPSOS Mori poll is a very interesting one. Firstly it has 48% EU, 27% EFTA / EEA for a total of 75% Single Market one way or another, and only 17% against. That compares with 62% Remain and 38% Leave, so it seems to me a large number of the Leavers are persuaded by the EFTA / EEA option. That’s good.

    But that won’t happen within the UK, we basically know May & Co aren’t having it. So where do they go? And how important is it? For me it’s up to us in our Indy campaign to try to strengthen peoples’ wish to stay in the Single Market, and get it above staying in the UK. Maybe just by asking them: “What is it about the Single Market is important to you?”.

    The mechanism is less important for those who need persuaded, whether EU or EFTA / EEA, and perhaps the YES can try to cover both options, something I don’t think the ScotGov can do as the justification for Indy Ref 2 is being dragged out of the EU. And the reason for the EFTA / EEA option was to bring onboard those who want both – single market and UK. In that respect I think the ScotGov’s compromise paper has been very very effective.

    There is a “But”, next posting …

  44. yesindyref2 says:

    The “But” is this, and a very big But. On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being Completely support Independence, and 10 Completely support the union, 28% are a 1, lower than we might have hoped. And 38% are 10 – way higher than we would have hoped by now. But that contradicts the single market question, where only 17% want out of both EU and Single Market.

    So that’s an extra battleground, and personally I think we go hard at the staying in the union choice of that 38%: “Why do you want to stay in the union?”.

    Mark Diffley says the battleground is the 4 thru 7, that sounds OK on the surface, it could give YES a bare 55%, but probably less. For me that’s too close for comfort, so I definitely want to get through to the 8 to 10s – which seem to be the hard Unionists.

    I suspect this means the economy is a very main battleground. Touchy-feely “What sort of Scotland do you want”, won’t cut the mustard. We live here already after all! Having said that, a factor for many living here is standard of life, as opposed to standard of living. We’re not so much a “keep up with the Jones’s” as they are “down south”, more an enjoy what we have ourselves. 🙂

  45. t42 says:

    Royal Bank of Scotland has awarded bonuses to its senior managers worth almost £16m, down from 17.5m last year.

    Its annual bonus awards were slipped out after the Budget.

    The taxpayer owned bank has been consistently loss-making for over 9 years.

  46. yesindyref2 says:

    OK, 3/3!

    So what is it about the economy people fear? Simple I think “Will I be able to afford my mortgage, will the interest rates be higher, will prices go up, will I still be able to afford a holiday once a year? Will I be able to afford to run my car / our cars?”.

    Mortgages were ignored last time, so BT managed to get away with scaring people “It’ll cost you an extra £25,000 a month to pay your mortgage”. That must be addressed – I researched for a few days about foreign country mortgages, and found nothing usable. We need the finance industry to do some stuff for us.

    But much of the second is around that “Deficit of £15 billion”. And that is where, I think, ScottieDog’s talk of currency, money creation comes in – but grossly simplified. It needs to be reduced to “With our own currency we can create money and reduce any need to borrow at all”. With a simple explanation if neccessary.

    If people in that hard unionist 38% are convincecd they will be no worse off personally then we can get their vote, and leave just the really hardened 10% or less. Because I think many of them are just as sick of the Union as we are.

  47. Clootie says:

    The Oil price versus profit:

    Most operators have cut their operating /”lifting costs” significantly. The Oil price does not have to return to anywhere near the previous price.

    Brexit devalued the pound BUT Oil is sold in dollars – a 10 percent bonus
    Lifting costs reduced by 20 to 30 dollars per barrel

    Another small increase in the Oil price and most companies/platforms will be well into profit.

    Remember lifting cost down and dollar up…don’t be conned by unionists.

  48. Ken500 says:

    Look up UK Gov accounts. Oil & Gas tax. PRT is 35% from Jan 2016.

  49. Ken500 says:

    Oil & Gas tax. UK Gov accounts.

    ‘Rings fenced Corporation tax charge’ is 30%

    Supplementary charge is 10%

    = 40% from Jan 2016

    PRT 35% is on older fields – pre 1993.

  50. Nana says:

    Just a few hours on from the poll…I smell panic don’t panic Capt’n Mannering!!!

  51. yesindyref2 says:

    Anyway, at last we can quote “50% YES”.

    Personally I hope it goes like this:

    Dev Ref 1: YES 51.6%, NO 48.4%
    Dev Ref 2: YES 74.6%. NO 25.4%

    Indy Ref 1: YES 44.7%, NO, 55.3%
    Indy Ref 2: YES 75%, NO 25%

    That’s our target !

  52. Ken500 says:

    OIL & Gas taxes

    Until Jan 2016. PRT was 50%

    ‘Ring fenced Corporation tax’ is 30%. Not deductible. Can’t set against excess interest charges.

    Supplementary charge is 10%

    PRT can be set against Ring fenced Corporation tax.

    Decommissioning is tax free. Can be set against profits. Even by new owners.

  53. scottieDog says:

    It’s quite a difficult one to put into simple terms but I’m working on it inbetween 101 other things…

    It’s about trying to get away from the tories idea that the wider economy is like a household..

  54. Ian Foulds says:

    Macmina MacAllan at 2.39pm

    I agree with your comment but may I also add that any figures and analyses provided need to be able to be substantiated.

    I particularly refer to Mr Swinney avoiding Ms. ‘Harrison’s’ request for comment on whether oil figures were incorporated in the figures calculated in the 2014 Referendum.

    Believe me I am no admirer of those in any of the Unionist parties but, I do believe we need to give truthful information to the Scottish people, otherwise we appear as a Yes campaigner or as SNP to be duplicitous

  55. Ken500 says:

    In the GERs figures there is £10Billion of ‘unexplained’ expenses. Weird. The reason accounts are done is to identify ‘expenses’. There is some kind of transfer of Oil to the EU. Refineries? Rotterdam?

  56. Macart says:


    There’s a piece in the Guardian by that Alex Bell fella. ‘Who will blink first. Theresa May or Nicola Sturgeon?’.

    According to your most recent link, that would be Theresa May then.

    Timing is everything. 😀

  57. Big Jock says:

    Perhaps when article 50 is triggered EU firms based in England will get twitchy. Meanwhile our campaign will be under way and if the polls show a definite lead for yes.

    Then many of those firms will be looking north to Scotland to stay in the single market. It will be easier for them to move up the road with some staff and employ new Scottish staff. Than to have to relocate across the sea to Eire. The exodus of firms and people might be what ultimately wins this for yes.

    People power!

  58. Ian S Sanderson says:

    John Swinney was in great form today,,,,, He should get more chances like this… It would also give Nicola a break from the whingers…1

  59. Nana says:


    Just read it, waste of time really. Same old from Bell. I wonder if he has the sense to see who blinked first.

    Blair Mc is having a bad day on twitter, it’s a joy to see, lol

  60. rog_rocks says:

    Been listeneing to BBC Scotland radio all day hoping to hear news of the Poll showing support for an Independent Scotland at 50% but this story has not been aired so far. Just so I knew they knew, I text them this…

    “So what about the new poll for STV by Ipsos Mori showing Indy @ 50%, does this not merit a mention? The bbc are very fond of showing polls against independence but now there is one showing things have evened up it is not mentioned. Another example of BBC bias generator straining at the bit,.. perhaps?”

    But still no mention of it, despite the subject of independence being spoken of several times 🙁

    Am so glad I no longer pay for this drivel.

  61. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    The problem with a poll showing a slight majority for indy, besides the usual question of reliability, is the very issue already raised by WGD: UKGov and their willing red-blue-yellow proxies will produce a counter-offer “out of the hat”.

    If they get really scared, rather than merely unsettled, they might even be willing to “vow” to accept the SG’s compromise offer wholesale. Then what?

    Like the first Vow, the UK bonhomie will evaporate as soon as the danger (to them) is averted. Nicola will have massed the troops, ready to do battle, then will have to tell them all to go home again.

    The chance will evaporate, and the UKGov will simply resume its devious reneging all over again. Even devolution itself will be insidiously attacked and undermined.

    We had just better hope that Theresa & Co. are as intransigent for a hard Brexit as we keep painting them to be…

  62. schrodingers cat says:

    The IPSOS Mori poll is a very interesting one. Firstly it has 48% EU, 27% EFTA / EEA for a total of 75% Single Market one way or another, and only 17% against. That compares with 62% Remain and 38% Leave, so it seems to me a large number of the Leavers are persuaded by the EFTA / EEA option. That’s good.

    brilliant news, it isnt the nos we need to convert to yes, it is the yesnownobrexiteers we need to target
    if we succeed, we will win indyref2,

    it is good to see polling evidence in support of the EFTA/EEA option

  63. One_Scot says:

    Twatter yoons clearly not happy with latest poll, have gone from trolling us to telling us just to GTF. Lol

  64. heedtracker says:

    One_Scot says:
    9 March, 2017 at 4:25 pm
    Twatter yoons clearly not happy with latest poll, have gone from trolling us to telling us just to GTF. Lol

    You’ll know we’re really back in it, when they start blaming Alex Salmond for the Chinese invasion and occupation of Tibet, in the 50’s.

    Take you back eh, UKOK yoon culture, zoom zoom.

  65. jfngw says:

    Dugdale has made her clarion call to the Scottish public.

    Her message is effectively, ‘your all useless, do yo not realise it yet’. Her ambition for Scotland is to be tied forever to the WM handouts, Of course the unionist MSP’s ambition is promotion to a WM seat and with luck eventually the House of Lords, how can they achieve this with independence.

  66. orri says:

    In case you haven’t seen them these are the questions asked by BMG to get the 51% against another referendum till 2019.

    To what extent do you agree or disagree with the following statements? “A referendum on Scottish independence should not be triggered until the UK & EU have completed their Brexit negotiations”

    51% / 24% /25% Agree / Neither / Disagree

    To what extent do you agree or disagree with the following statements? “After 10 years in office, the SNP Government has overseen significant improvements in public services in Scotland”

    35% / 34% / 30%

    To what extent do you agree or disagree with the following statements? “Nicola Sturgeon should prioritise improving public services over pursuing another independence referendum”

    59% / 29% / 12%

    To what extent do you agree or disagree with the following statements? “Scotland’s political elite is more talk than action when it comes to dealing with the problems facing Scots”

    54% / 30% / 16%

    Basically three variants of get on with the day job with and admission that the SNP have actually improved things. In all 4 cases there’s an agreement with the question being asked. When the question about independence was asked is unclear but if the later 3 were first that’s a wee bit leading. Not to mention that the BMG summary page omits mention of the other two and only mentions the getting on with the day job one. Possibly because the first actually favours the SNP and the second might be equally damning of any elected politician.

  67. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    One_Scot @ 16:25,

    I can see that kind of “sour grapes” thing coming from southern BritNats, but it must leave the northern BritNats feeling increasingly beleaguered. “The water’s rising and there’s nowhere to go.”

    It may not be any of the fine detail that we obsess about here that matters in the end, actually. The fissure that’s beginning to open up may just widen of its own account as people on both sides begin to polarise. In which case the diehard yoons here will become increasingly absurd and irrelevant.

  68. twathater says:

    Re David @2.01pm question to the Rev about naming good lab or tolies to run Scotch land after indyref. Answer nane o them they are ALL tractors as they are proving every day .

    My dream is that any current liebour voters will see the disgraceful display that the self serving elitist troop are putting on , come to their senses and realise there is NOTHING identifiably socialist about this current lots aims or ambitions for Scotland or the Scots , they are only interested in denigrating and undermining people’s hopes and aspirations .
    They have no pride or belief in Scotland or the Scottish people .

    As for the tolies it is just what’s in it for me me me

  69. finnz says:

    Its at times like these, when i see support for independence climb over the magic number of 50%, that I start walking with a spring in my step and a smile on my face.

    Its a feeling that the whole of Scotland will enjoy once we are finally rid of Westminster rule.

    And that will make us truly free.

  70. Nana says:

    Slab deserve to be thrown on the scrapheap. every one of them

  71. Bob Mack says:

    Explain the polls ? Why? If it has grown ,then it has grown. Let the Yoons worry about it. Just enjoy the merriment.

  72. Dr Jim says:

    Explain nothing!

    Independence means Independence and we’re going to make a success of it and get the best deal for Scotland

    Why the F… should we answer all the damn questions

  73. Proud Cybernat says:

    The home wrecker…

  74. Almannysbunnet says:

    Just had a guy at the door asking if I would be interested in taking out a subscription to the Evening Express or the Press & Journal.
    Me “Not a chance”
    Him “may I ask why”
    Me “Don’t like your politics”.
    Him “A lot of people are telling me that”

    We are getting there in Aberdeen and if you wonder why have a read of this excellent report. The guy deserves a medal for doing the job the local paper should be doing. Spare him a fiver if you can.

  75. Marker Post says:

    The fantastic thing about the new poll is that Ruth Davidson will never be able to say again that the majority of Scots don’t want a second referendum. Or rather, she can, but it will be blindingly obvious that she’s lying.

  76. Dr Jim says:

    We’ll gae ye some immigration powers, eh, we’ll gae ye maer boats tae build, eh, we’ll gae ye

    Listen to them starting already Vow Vow Vow Promise Promise Promise, Defo we will Naw really defo! A new hoose dae yees want a new hoose, Money we’ll gae ye money, Powers aye yees like powers eh

    …. off

  77. Andy Anderson says:

    Great news. Trend going up slowly over last six months.
    Nice to read all your comments.
    I am attempting to convert as many as possible.

  78. crazycat says:

    @ Nana

    I’ve just got round to following your link to the Kate Forbes interview – she did indeed do very well.

    I was particularly pleased that she without hesitation pointed out that the franchise for the 2 referendums was so different (when Julia H-B tried to say that more people voted No than Remain).

  79. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Almannysbunnet @ 16:55,

    A sobering indictment of SLab arrogance and incompetence that deserves to be referenced again. Kudos to its authors.

    I especially liked the dedication, to none other than Willie Young himsel: “Without him, much of this [report] would have been unnecessary.”

    What an epitaph, which it will deservedly be if Aberdeen voters have any sense come May.

    (Oh, and for those like me who are confused by the “download” that is presented unfamiliarly in Google Drive instead, just select the “print” option and you’ll get an actual download that you can save, if not actually “enjoy”.)

  80. velofello says:

    @ Robert J Sutherland: The summary of your post is Perfidious Albion. They cannot be trusted.The following gleaned from my Middle and Far East travels –

    On my word as an Englishman – Ha ha ha.

    Better the English as enemies than friends. As enemies they will try to bribe you, as friends they will try to sell you.

    When will the English stop taking the resources of others?

    Oil and Gas, cynical me. So PRT is reduced, UK experiences huge reduction in tax revenue,yet oil companies continue to produce and sell. Is there a back door payment scam by the oil companies to whoever, in the UK? The UK has plenty of offshore account opportunities. And the political bonus is to make the North Sea industry appear poor to contest the IndyRef campaign. Norway, on comparable production levels, I understand has pocketed +£10K billion receipts over a comparable period,whilst the UK is down to £27K, or is it £270K? Or whatever.

  81. Ian says:

    If they want to keep harping on about North Sea oil, lets start with looking at how much tax revenue the UK gained compared with Norway since 1970.

    “So how much revenue has each country generated from its oil and gas production over the past 45 years? Analysis of official government statistics show that the U.K. generated $470 billion in revenues whilst Norway has generated $1,197 billion since 1971 in real (2014) terms. The U.K. generated $11.0 per barrel of oil compared to Norway’s $29.8 in 2014 prices. Why did the U.K. generate (much) less revenue for the state than Norway from North Sea oil and gas?” –

    Then once that UK governmental disaster has been absorbed the next obvious question would be – how did the UK government use the (much reduced) windfall North Sea oil & gas tax revenues since 1970? Wasted or squandered seem to be the two main words used to describe the follow on UK governmental disaster.

    Still that’s in the past and as for the future, no doubt the UK government will achieve a much greater level of snafu with Brexit.

  82. Arbroath1320 says:

    sorry for going O/T but here is the latest, #6, in the wee video series “from NO to YES.”

  83. Luigi says:

    Don’t get too excited about the recent opinion poll, folks. A headline, yoon-commissioned poll showing support for indy dropping like a stone again is bound to appear in the next few days, as sure as night follows day.

    In fact we can start the countdown……..

    Any time now. 🙂

  84. Luigi says:

    24 hours until the next headline yoon poll. Surveyed weeks ago but ready and waiting on the shelf. A big majority against a referendum.

    Maybe 48 hours at a push. It all depends how much the 50% poll has spooked them.

  85. velofello says:

    And for clarification: By Englishman, take it to be the the UK Establishment ruling species of humanity that eats/lives off the meeker,better natured of whatever nation. It not about nationality. In the British Isles this species finds it convenient to call themselves English. And they have their servile camp followers here in Scotland.

  86. Mike says:

    Ken 500

    NO IT AINT! PRT has been reduced to 0%! from the previous value of 35%

    The 40% you quote is the “MARGINAL” Tax rate. Which on 0% is 0%.

    Are you deliberately misleading?

  87. Hamish100 says:

    Let’s just promote the independence and the right of self determination for this nation.

    Silly “English” type comments suggest an agent provacateur. Is your name McDougall by chance?

  88. jfngw says:

    Dugdale & Davidson – Together we’re stronger.

  89. Bob Mack says:


    You are spot on. The rigs are churning out the oi and gasl 24/7 but to no profit. Every other country with rigs on the N Sea is posting profits. Norway, Denmark, Sweden and even Germany are making money ,but the UK ends up with a pittance.

    My best bet is that they have found a way to circumvent the amounts going through the books as oil receipts. Do not doubt for a minute they are capable of getting the oil companies on board with such a scam.

    Why would the biggest pension company in Canada, amalgamate with other companies to buy N Sea oil rights from BP if they thought for one second they were drying up.

    The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

  90. The Dog Philosopher says:

    You just have to watch a few minutes of that BBC 2 programme about the house of lords to understand the subordinate mentality that permeates each of the British parties who still maintain a foothold in Scotland. Witness some well-kent faces of old (McConnell, Foulkes, Darling, Forsyth, Lindsey etc) trooping around, mouths drooling, overawed by the ‘opulant splendour’ and quaint, outmoded rituals of the elitist establishment, while picking up 300 bucks for just showing up. Ah, the peculiar fragrance of democracy, Brit style.

    How can little old Scotland ever hope to compete with such grandeur and majesty?

  91. yesindyref2 says:

    BMG are very poor for misrepresenting the findings of their own poll. I was going to report them to the Market Research thing they’re amember of but couldnae be bothered.

  92. yesindyref2 says:

    Article in the Herald about Babcock workers going on strike because of erosion of rights and privatisation. In my view the MOD is moving to outsource, privatise, even get tenders from abroad. So much for only building warships in the UK, is what I think is going to happen over the next 10 years. The MOD is skint, and so is the UK. Brassic lint.

    T31? Not on the Clyde. Maybe 3 T26, who knows after that. You mark my words!

  93. Ken500 says:

    The rate of tax is on the UK Gov website. It says nothing about zero rate, Except for decommissioning. Look it up. It is there for all to see.

    ‘Ringed fenced Corporation tax’ 30% and 10% supplementary charge = 40%. Ring fenced. So not tax deductible (avoided) or subject to high interest charges (avoided). Some funds buy up companies load them with debt, take money out and then try and sell them on. Or take out the pension fund (BHS). Or set other losses against NS profits.

    The production is metered. There are meters on the rigs. It would be nigh impossible to cheat, without being found out. Someone would clype.

    The high tax when the prices had fallen led to the drop in production. It the tax had been cut earlier or even now. More exploration would be done. It is starting to pick up. Shell and BP etc lost profits worldwide. Saudi sold off oil shares.

  94. Nana says:

    Tune in to channel4 news later for more on tory electoral fraud

    Watch here

  95. TheWasp says:

    Disreporting Scotland telling us we are too wee, too poor and too stupid, with nice graphics and video inserts. Would just telling us we are shite not save them wasting the taxpayers money ?

  96. galamcennalath says:

    “The Home Office has announced a new policy of reviewing whether all refugees require protection at the end a five year initial period of leave. …. Because refugees, employers and colleges can no longer assume a refugee will qualify for settlement, it will be harder for refugees to find work, commit to educational courses or simply settle down and rebuild their lives.”

    Question is, why would anyone seek asylum in UKOKland? Or, perhaps that is the underlying plan?

  97. TheWasp says:

    Up pops the auditor General again to rip Police Scotland, the ebc must have her on speed dial

  98. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    So we are on 50% in the opinion polls, does that mean we need just ONE MORE VOTE to win Independence???

  99. ScottishPsyche says:

    Absolutely shocking bare bones summary of Scotland’s ‘economy’ on Reporting Scotland by Douglas Fraser. Oil, deficit… only solution is cuts or increase revenue with the strong implication that the only revenue is oil!

    Unbelievable and remember that is where pensioners get their news.

  100. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    TheWasp 6.41pm
    “Up pops the auditor General again to rip Police Scotland, the ebc must have her on speed dial”

    Aye, she is one depressin’ wee wummin.

  101. Brian Powell says:

    Re Douglas Fraser and economy. If it is so bad why doesn’t the UK Gov just shut down Holyrood and take over running Scotland directly, I wonder.

  102. Bob Mack says:


    I suggest you look up siphoning of oil in Nigeria, Iraq, Libya. Kazakhstan. They are all metered but are still losing billions to western companies who are illegally buying the oil and try to cover it up.

    Oil equals money
    Money equals power
    Power opens doors to corruption.

    Maybe the UK is above that sort of thing ?

  103. One_Scot says:

    According to BBC Scotland were all going to die and your children are going to die, so you might as well stay in your box. How do these people sleep at night.

    Do they not realise how stage manufactured they look repeating the same fear stories they told two years ago. Is that really all they have.

  104. Clootie says:

    …Dame Auditot General shortly 🙂

  105. HandandShrimp says:

    A poll show Yes slightly in the lead and the fun time two are straight back into the deep end of Project Fear.

    Hilarious if it wasn’t so pathetic. However, at least we can be pretty clear, the crap we got last time is the crap we will get this time. They have nothing else in the locker.

    I see the Tories have slipped back to the teens on the council vote too. Sobering food for thought for Struth “use the council elections to judge Indyref2” Harrison. Wonder if we will hear that again.

  106. Marker Post says:

    @Scottish Psyche and Brian Powell.

    Is this the same Douglas Fraser who wrote in the Herald in 2007:

    “A series of myths about Scotland’s financial position in the United Kingdom are exploded today in a special investigation by The Herald.

    The research represents a vital contribution to a debate over whether Scotland should take on more tax-raising powers or become independent. Our findings come amid a growing clamour from English politicians and the London-based media to curb Scotland’s £26bn spending grant from the Treasury”

  107. Ken500 says:

    Scotland raised as much without Oil £54Billion.The year before it was £50Billion + £4Billion Oil revenues. Scotland still raises more than the rest of the UK pro rata £46Billion.

    BBC never show Scotland could save on Trident £1Billion. Minimum pricing £1Billion, tax evasion £3Billion, £3,5Billion on loan repayments it doesn’t borrow or spend, defence spending,. Increase Oil revenues etc. The claim is just that public services would have to be cut. Not necessarily.

    There could be more in ECB investment. Increased CCS, renewable grants, CAP payments from the EU. Charging or taxing on exported renewable energy, instead of having to pay to put it on the grid. The EU invests in energy lines between countries.

    There were illegal wars to take Iraq and Libya’s Oil. Nigerian officials were involved in transferring Oil revenues to Swiss bank accounts. There is an ongoing investigation against HSBC? involving £Billion fraudulently being transferred to a Swiss bank. The Bank refused to accept the payment. Shell? were involved. Any suspicous transferred are suppose to be reported to a UK Gov agency. The funds were illegally transferred through a London City intermediary. London City is the centre for fraudulent banking transfers and cover ups.

  108. Robert Graham says:

    BBC a bit slow with the STV poll ,They however managed to give us word for word the drop in the price of oil from the resident tory drama queen they go on to feature how the forecast by the snp government in 2014 was wrong .This was amongst every other forecast made the world over, everyone got it wrong ,but strangely omitting to tell folks the snp forecast in 2014 was actually lower than most of the predictions at that time, Funny how they managed to leave that little relevant point out its not like them is it now ,
    Pause for laughter ha ha . Same shit different day .

  109. Robert Peffers says:

    @jfngw says: 9 March, 2017 at 6:02 pm:

    “Dugdale & Davidson – Together we’re stronger.”

    Naw! They jist smell stronger.

  110. galamcennalath says:

    Latest poll with YES on 50.3% …. just shows how effective the Tories have been at campaigning for Scottish independence!

    Only explanation because no one else is doing so much campaigning! 🙂

  111. jfngw says:

    Could someone tell Ms Dugdale that World Book Day was last week and she can now stop wearing the Pingu costume.

  112. ScottishPsyche says:

    @Marker Post

    Interesting article – I hadn’t seen that. You have to wonder what happened to people like Fraser who did seem to have some objectivity at one time. I guess if you want to keep your job in the BBC news organisation you pick a side. He seems to have totally lost it recently what with the report tonight and his outburst at John Nicolson last week.

  113. ScottishPsyche says:

    Dugdale on QT tonight. She’ll be hurting and I bet the whining will be turned up to the max. What’s the betting she’s been put on to counter the poll today as soon as possible? English audiences may be more sympathetic to her sad puppy act as they won’t have seen her raging.

    Unfortunately Tasmina A-S is on and she doesn’t often come across well to the rUK. I hope she can keep it together.

  114. Rock says:

    What sort of people still vote for Labour in Scotland?

  115. Robert Graham says:

    These two clowns working together reminds me of Legends from the Glasgow Empire ,the story goes when English Comedians Mike & Bernie Winters took to the stage someone shouts OH F/K Theres Two of them , the laughter from both these clowns i expect they thought he was laughing with them , for f/k sake someone tell them they were the joke , the double act .

  116. Dr Jim says:

    I think we all got the gist of where BBC Reporting Scotland was going tonight as they screamed out from the telly



    I just get the feeling they’re against the proposition
    I did enjoy the interview with the woman who was proudly against Brexit but patriotically dead against Independence too
    So I guess she’ll have to fold herself up and sook herself up her own …nah I shouldn’t say it

  117. heedtracker says:

    Powerful stuff from Richard Dawkins, but who’s he left out of his Brexit polemic? Only half of the Uk, shock. Where is the academic discipline here Prof.

  118. Scott says:

    There’s more to life than bean-counting, much more.

    Independence is one of those things. It’s beyond the experience of everyday life.

    It’s something worth living for.

  119. velofello says:

    Oh c’mon jfngw, my wife and me are going through our fourth grandchild round of reading of Pingu.

  120. Effijy says:

    My wife still pays the EBC Propaganda Tax, although we agreed the quality of programme is generally complete rubbish, a repeat for the 100th time, or misinformation
    for the gullible.

    Anyway, tonight’s fare has,
    Britain on the Fiddle,
    Great British Hand Outs,
    A Very British Hotel and Extremely British Muslims.

    Can’t beat a bit of alternative English propaganda after misreporting Scotland.


  121. Brian Powell says:

    I suppose we should keep in mind when seeing any BBC output that the same TorySlab propagandists inhabit it as did in 2014.

    They have nothing more.

  122. ronnie anderson says:

    Ruth & Kezia.

    Own goals scored.

  123. harry mcaye says:

    Kate Forbes was great on Talk Radio, we could do with seeing her on TV a bit more. Tonight’s QT has Tasmina, for I think her third appearance. We’ve had John Nic and Angus several times, Joanna Cherry and Hannah Bardell once each and of course Big Alex has been on almost as much as Farage over the years but we could do with some new faces, like Kate, Phillipa Whitford or Stephen Gethins. And what about Mhairi for goodness sake, even if only to tell Dimbers that he’s talking a load o’ keech!

  124. ballevullin says:

    Ruzia Davidale and Keth Dugson had better watch they don’t keep saying the same things else the public will start to get the two mixed up.

  125. ScottieDog says:

    Really good explanation of deficits here’s from Randal Wray…

  126. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    I don’t think ‘misinformation’ is the best word to use when referring to the BBC. I prefer ‘disinformation’. Purely intentional. No hint of it being an honest mistake, guv.

  127. North Chiel says:

    TM at Euro council , looked as if she couldn’t get out of press conference
    fast enough. Looking desperately around for a friendly face to ask a ” dolly” question
    .Found Laura K and another couple her of ” Westminster media cronies” all preoccupied with
    the budget . The only ” foreign” journalist who got a look in was Danish and TM ” bolted” after
    virtually ” dodging the question”. Not even an ” aurevoir”!

  128. Mike says:


    “Table 11.12 – Petroleum Revenue Tax assessments (updated January 2017)

    PRT assessable profits increased by 106% between 2015 H2 and 2016 H1, from £361 million to £745 million, as a result of a fall in field expenditure. ?

    Income (gross profit) from oil and gas extraction dropped by 12% to £1,642 million between 2015 H2 and 2016 H1 while field expenditure claimed declined by 25% to £1,306 million over the same period. ?

    This left 2016 H1 profit after oil allowance of £701 million, an increase of £413 million (143%) from 2015 H2.

    With effect from 1 January 2016, the PRT rate was reduced to 0% – therefore there are no PRT revenues”

    Did you get that?


  129. Artyhetty says:


    Thats got me in a good mood, thanks. All this joining up of words and meanings, like mansplaining,
    but your take on it is class! Ha ha.

    By the by, went to the National (no longer royal :-)) museum of Scotland today, what a fabulous place it is. I was remembering when, was it liebour(?) tried charging people just to go into the museum, in the 90s, and breathed a sigh of relief that the yoons are not at the helm in Scotland.

    Looking forward to hearing by the minute reports from QT and with ‘Ruzia’ having an apoplectic fit after her day today. Lol.

  130. ScottieDog says:

    More myth busting stuff…
    Pictorial representation of balance of deficit/surplus. Note the mirror image..
    (Gov deficit is our surplus and vice Versa)

    A govt cannot become insolvent with respect to obligations in its own currency. A fiat currency like the ones we have today can produce such claims without limit
    Alan Greenspan

    Interview with Ben Bernanke after the financial crisis..

    Scott Pelley: “Is that tax money that the Fed is spending?”

    Ben Bernanke: “It’s not tax money… We simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account.”

    The thing thatcher and most mainstream economists failed to understand when they deregulated the banks…(from the horses mouth)

  131. joannie says:

    A documentary just starting on BBC2 about Brexit – there’s an interview with Nicola Sturgeon in it about another referendum.

  132. Breeks says:

    Whatever the numbers, and the truth about oil, I find it tiresome that the issue is dealt with using such tunnel vision as all sides seem to do. When oil prices are depressed, it’s terrible news. When oil prices flourish it’s a bonanza. Wrong!!! You need to judge oil over an extended period; long enough to flatten oil the peaks and troughs and give you a broader, balanced nett result, and an impact to quantify objectively.

    Naturally, we have no nett result of what an Independent Scotland would have done with its oil, but unusually, very unusually, we have the McCrone Report which predicted one.
    We have the nett result of what Westminster has done with our oil, and that frankly was to squander it by bailing out Westminster’s greed and profligacy for decades.
    But we also have another nett result, and that is what Norway has done over the same period, with broadly the same resource, in similar economic constraints.

    So do the math. We have great wealth predicted by Scottish nationists. We have great wealth predicted by Gavid McCrone. We have Norway, irrefutable physical proof that there was indeed great wealth to be made from oil, all as predicted. Then we have Westminster and the Uncle Tam Unionists telling us what fools we all are to believe Scotland should expect any benefit or return from its oil, and point us towards their abject failure to capitalise properly from our oil, like the Norwegians, as if this was somehow inevitable and unavoidable. Funny that, considering Gavin McCrone was right in every detail, but only where Norway was concerned. What Gavin McCrone failed to predict was the impact of an oil economy labouring under the obscene exploitation by a cash starved parasitic UK government running its economy close to bankruptcy.

    Well forget about the oil for a second, and listen to the words of Shashi Faroor on LBC…

    Let me highlight a couple of sentences:

    “Here former Minister of State for India, author of Inglorious Empire, and MP for Thiruvananthapuram, Shashi Tharoor, tells LBC Drive Presenter Iain Dale why that branding would “go down like a lead balloon”.

    He told Iain: “Well speaking specifically about the British Empire in India, the British came to one of the richest countries in the world, and over 200 years of plunder and exploitation reduced it to one of the poorest…”

    Ok, now start thinking about our oil again… The “British” haven’t robbed us as they robbed a rich and prosperous India, they robbed us of our oil wealth before we ever saw it.

    Frankly, to see the likes of Davidson and Dugdale attacking the Scottish government while pedalling the Britnat Party line that the oil wealth is a fiction that doesn’t exist, is as treacherous a deception as I have ever had the misfortune to witness. Yes, let me say that again, treacherous!

  133. Ruby says:

    Dugdale & Davison. Double Ds

  134. Scott says:

    Dugdale & Davidson

    Are these two meeting in secret to come up with the same questions or is another reason.

  135. ScottieDog says:

    Not having to import oil is the real winner. The point that people forget is that central banks are printing money like it’s going out of fashion. We live in a fiat currency world where we are exporting our pretty much worthless IOUs for real resources.

  136. Cadogan Enright says:

    Around 37.40 for the craic

  137. Conan the Librarian says:

    Anyone up for a drinking game during QT tonight?

    Every time Dimbleby interrupts Tasmin, Ruth mark II mentions independence, uncertainty and referendum; it’s a drink.

    Every time a loaded ignorant and arrogant question/accusation from the audience a drink etc.

    Any suggestions?

  138. Bob Mack says:

    @Conan the Librarian,

    Order a new liver beforehand ?

  139. Artyhetty says:


    Well said Breeks. We don’t have to go too far back, or look too deeply into things to see that Scotland has been robbed blind, for those who care to be bothered to see.

  140. Artyhetty says:

    Conan the librarian@9.19

    OK. 🙂

  141. BBC Scotland Tells Lies says:

    The old team are still there inside pacific Quay.

    Jackie Burd
    Glen Campbell
    Gordon Brewer
    Kaye Adams
    Douglas Fraser
    Gary Robertson

    All with endless funds and the full weight of the British Establishment behind them.

    Turn up on the 26th March just to give them a wee reminder that we haven’t gone away either.

  142. Conan the Librarian says:

    @ Bob Mack

    It should be OK, I’m drinking Budweiser someone left at Hogmanay. The American version…

    @ Artyhetty


  143. Ken500 says:

    Look up Oil & Gas tax.

    There is no reference there of PRT rate being reduced to zero. It is 35% from 1st Jan 2016.

    @ The tables being linked are revenues. I.e. It could be reference to PRT being zero because there are no revenues being produced. A different thing.

    I.e. The rate is not zero. It is zero production of revenues from PRT.

  144. Arbroath1320 says:

    sorry for O/T folks but here’s another wee video, #7, of “NO to YES”.

  145. Lenny Hartley says:

    Worked out revenues for oil in 2016 based on monthly ave price at over 13 billion pounds ave cost of extraction is around £13 per barrell according to oil and gas UK website so annual cost approx 5 bn pounds so profit of 8bn pounds . Even allowing for offsets on decommissioning etc , 60 million tax returns on 8bn pounds , I smell shite! Based on 1.21 usd to pound, I know it was higher for half the year but I ain’t gonna work it out with daily Er fluctuations 🙂

  146. yesindyref2 says:

    So David Davis who said immigration might be devolved after all has been over-ruled by Downing Street who say it won’t.

    David Davis doesn’t know his Foot from his Johnson.

    Just as well Ed does Strictly these days or we’d be in real trouble.

  147. ScottishPsyche says:

    @Conan the Librarian

    School night I’m afraid but I’d bet on:

    once in a generation
    deficit/black hole
    SNP obsession
    day job
    what currency
    Spain veto

  148. North chiel says:

    Entirely agree with ” Breeks” @0907pm.
    I am heartily sick of listening to the biggest con perpretated on the Scottish electorate by the
    Westminster state controlled media ; namely the absolute lie that the oil price has ” collapsed”.
    The widely quoted 100 plus usd/ bbl only existed for 3 years 2011,2012& 2013. In 2009 the oil price was 61.5 usd/bbl.
    From 1976 until 2003 it was only as high as 37 usd/bbl during one year only ( 1980). For 14 of these years the oil price was in fact below 20 usd/bbl!, and as recently as 2003 it was as low as 29 usd/bbl.
    This year so far the price has averaged 54.58 usd/bbl and this is significantly higher than the 41 year average Brent price of 39.39 usd/bbl.
    The Brent crude average yearly prices can be found on the website and
    perhaps some of our readers should have a look . The supposed oil price ” collapse”
    is a complete myth.

  149. jfngw says:

    I see Gordon Brown is to publish his memoirs. Could it be?

    Gordon: A Chancellors Tale, a giant roller coaster of a novel in 400 chapters. A searing indictment of financial ineptitude at the beginning of the 21st century. Foreword by Fred Goodwin former knight of the realm.

  150. call me dave says:

    BP cancels plans for new Grangemouth power plant.

    They’re making it harder for Scotland but we’ll get there. 🙂

  151. WMJunk says:

    Remain voting Englishman here.

    The question has to be,

    What benefits the Tories and Theresa May ?

    IndyRef Pre 2020 or post 2020 ?

    Arguably allowing IndyRef2 before 2020 makes it easier for the Tories to persuade voters to remain. It being impossible for voters to be informed (Democracy?) on either result. However, this would sacrifice elements of Brexit. Ultimately setting the SNP for back to back humiliating defeats at the hands of the plebiscite and exonerating the Tories of any responsibility for failing with Brexit. This could easily be a Tory ploy. Forcing the SNPs hand. If you’re not careful the SNP are being set up to be the fall guy.

    Going after 2020 gives the Tories a chance to persuade some Scots that Unionism is for the best. Although this will be hard with the potential for the Great Repeal Bill to nullify Holyrood. Does Sturgeon really hope that West Minster Vetoes IndyRef 2 ? Invigorating SNP support and demonstrating West Minsters control

    I’m trying to be non-partisan and not a WUM. Hope you all understand.

    Be interested to hear any opinions.

  152. stu mac says:

    @Conan the Librarian says

    It’s not healthy to drink so much – in one hour too. 🙂

  153. stu mac says:

    I see someone beat me to that.

  154. Artyhetty says:

    re;Conan the librarian@9.36


    Ken500 and Lenny Hartley

    Plenty oil n gas in Scotland’s territory. It’s just that the ‘tory’ bit means that Scotland sees non of it. Ruzia, tonight on QT, ‘too poor, and far too stupid’, I need my job and nice big fat wage cheque so Scotland=UK. I mean, north Britain.

    Interesting array of books at the shop at the museum today, all about Scotland’s past, present and looking at the unionists making a few quid from Scotland’s not independence, future as well, on yoon planet, yoon world, and in yoon universe.

    My current interest is geology, and oh boy does Scotland have a lot of it! Though that brings me to mind of an ex friend, from Edinburgh, who, when I said that Scotland’s geology is top notch in terms of interesting, they said, ‘really, no, there must be more interesting places’. That’s your folks who just couldn’t bare to hear a good word about their own country. Bizarre eh.

  155. boris says:

    distributing the information contained in this post will succeed in bringing the already disreputable Labour Party further into the mire it created in Scotland

  156. Tackety Beets says:

    BBC Scotland regularly carry out interviews for radio with camera running so they have same for TV X mission too

    We recently had GMS interview ( can’t recal his name, sorry) the “frontman” from Chrysoar who had just invested / Purchased huge sectors of SHELL in North Sea

    If I remember correctly Meg M ? posted a full verbatim of the interview shortly after my post.

    In said interview he was asked about making profit in such a volatile market.

    Chrysoar mannie rattled of how much oil was still there and , and this bit stood out for me

    “currently extraction costs of $15 / barrel leaves plenty room for profit”

    It was significant for me that ALL further Transmissions of said interview edited out the $15 per barrel costs !

    I apologise but I do wish I had the time and technology to save the interview on GMS, for me it was GOLD .

    Maybe Nana has already posted the link & I missed it ?

  157. cearc says:


    Clumps of visiting geology students are a year round feature here, in the NW geopark.

    If you’re coming up, let me know.

  158. Breeks says:

    @ ScottieDog.

    Yes, less imports, but another gripe about oil is the price we pay for domestic fuel. Currently, we pay about twice what they pay in America, and don’t quote me, but I seem to remember the difference being even bigger.

    We produce the stuff, but pay some of the highest fuel prices in the world.

    When I was at school, I worked weekends at a petrol station, and diesel was 1/4 price of petrol, and of course you get more mpg. Over the years, as diesel cars have become common, diesel has caught up and overtaken petrol. I’m kinda curious how they could sell diesel at the lower price 35 years ago but now it is more expensive. Strikes me that if it was viable to make and sell diesel commercially at 1/4 the price, then logic suggests somebody somewhere is now making a 4x the killing on a litre of diesel. There has to be a scam to explain the discrepancy.

  159. yesindyref2 says:

    Any date like 2020, 2022 or even 2019 are red herrings.

    It’s not a date, it’s a timescale, and the main timescale is either before actual Brexit or after Brexit. The secondary and very important time point is the end of Brexit negotiations which means the People of Scotland will know what we’re voting for, but it will be before Brexit itself when Scotland is still in the EU.

    Currrently it looks like the end of negotiations could be September 2018, but there are hints May could end them earlier by calling the EU intransigent and walking out with nothing.

  160. Meg merrilees says:


    I clocked that Richard Dawkins video this evening too. Left me wondering if he’s setting the scene for them to impose a two-thirds majority on the next Indy ref.

    All that bull about constitutional matters needing to have a 2/3 majority because it’s not just for 5 years but for keeps ( perfectly rational statement which i agree with regarding Brexit as 17 million pro-brexit out of a UK population of 68 (?) million is quite a paltry ratio of I in 4 of the population)

    Here’s hoping I’m wrong!

  161. WMJunk says:

    “Currrently it looks like the end of negotiations could be September 2018, but there are hints May could end them earlier by calling the EU intransigent and walking out with nothing.”

    Thanks for your response.

    What if WM refused to grant a legally binding Ref ?

    Sorry I only just realised this is supposed to be about oil. On that count many have mentioned the WM myth of prices. You guys are arguably sat on the biggest wells in the EU. Propping up the GBP £.

    Sorry if you feel I am intruding, I do have a sense of guilt.

    I’d just like to see a fairly represented Great Britain.

  162. Liz g says:

    WM Junk @ 10.07
    Well IMHO Indy Ref 2 needs to take place before Brexit Actually happens and for two reasons.
    Firstly……Any deal done that includes Scotland’s resources would be useless,if Scotland voted to leave after getting sight of the deal.
    So common sense tells me that to bargain over our resources they must be pretty sure they would keep them.
    Which brings me to the second reason….. I am not willing to take the risk that Westminster is trustworthy enough not to circumvent a vote,as soon as it is out from under the jurisdiction of the EU.
    It would loose much of what it had just bargained with,and at that point could claim the resulting discontentment in Scotland as an internal matter of a Sovereign nation.
    Not enough people in other countries understand that this UK thing is just an old Treaty between two nation’s on an island that’s had it’s day.

    To delay the vote until full control and ultimate Judgement was with Westminster,is exactly what I would do if I wanted to keep Scotland bound by the Treaty.
    Infact I would go much farther and redefine the whole set up so that Westminster rule could never be peacefully challenged again.
    I would also engineer the Reunification of Ireland,demonstrating that Westminster will part with territory if it’s the will of the people,and,what a wonderful distraction that would be, from what they really want to keep.

  163. Nana says:

    @Tackety Beets

    I don’t recall if anyone taped the programme, I will try and find out tomorrow. In the meantime here is what Phil Kirk said.

    Let’s speak to the company’s Chief executive, Phil Kirk …

    Tell us about this deal, it’s fairly mammoth isn’t it?

    It is a large deal and very important for the UK and the local economy, really positive, we’re going to be immediately one of the top producers in the UK, the boed (barrels of oil per day ) is 115,000 barrels of oil equivalent profitable, operating costs of about $15 per barrel and 350,000,000 barrels of reserves. Big numbers, yeah.

    Shell is retreating from the N sea and you are one of the bidders for these assets why do you think you can make it work when others can’t because Shell sees the N sea as too expensive?

    I’m not sure that Shell sees the UK as too expensive or really that they are retreating. I think Shell made a large acquisition with BP earlier and they’re now refocusing globally perhaps in Brazil and Australia but that enables us to acquire a while body of assets that maybe wouldn’t otherwise be available. There are some world class assets here, you mentioned Buzzard and Schiehallion, that anyone would be pleased to be a partner of, and the operator assets will be able to bring bring additional capital bear that perhaps Shell would have focused elsewhere in other countries.. We will have a bigger drilling programme than they would over the next few years and that’s really where we will add value.

    You’ve been described as a minnow… does that make you more nimble but also more exposed?

    I think we definitely are nimble. I wouldn’t necessarily describe us as a minnow. It depends on your measures. We’re going to have, when the transaction completes, we’re going to have a material …area, we’re looking to be a UK champion, champion for the base and for the supply chain, and for Scotland as well, so I wouldn’t describe us as being a minnow then, we’ll definitely be punching above our weight.

    I’m looking forward to talking to the local staff this afternoon. I think about 400 people are going to transfer as part of this deal. I’ll be reassuring them that we won’t be cutting terms and conditions. I’m not looking to lay anyone off, this is all about growth and investment for Scotland and the UK.

  164. Albaman says:

    Rev, what I’d like to know, why on tonight’s “question time”, when John McDonald who was soposed to be part of the panel, could not make it, so the B.B.C. gets Kezia Dugdale to be driven
    down from Edinburgh to take his place.
    Surely there are Labour M.P. s around Newcastle and Sunderland to stand in for McDonald,
    What’s the B.B.C.s agenda here?.

  165. ScottishPsyche says:

    Kezia sounding very scripted and unlike herself. I wouldn’t be surprised if John McDonnell dropped out to allow Labour’s version of what is going on in Scotland to be broadcast to the rUK.

    I was feeling sorry for her for a while but she really is a piece of work.

  166. WMJunk says:

    Liz g,

    Thanks for your reply. So many hypotheticals.

    I don’t know enough about the EU jurisdictions power and how it protects Scottish sovereignty in terms of legally binding votes in Scotland !

    That’s an intense irony right there…

    Trustworthy and West Minster are not words that go together.

    However, in the eyes of the rest of the world it would be hard to deny IndyRef2 post Brexit (Assume General Election 2020) if it were to occur.

  167. Tackety Beets says:

    Nana ,

    I was not asking you to go to all that trouble, I was merely acknowledging your magnificent ability to furnish us all with such magnificent links etc which we will all be for ever wiser

    Your post has surpassed my expectations AGAIN

    Thank you very much.

  168. yesindyref2 says:

    If May refused, firstly it would hopefully increase support for Independence. Secondly it’s likely the Scottish Government would call one anyway. That could be challenged in court probably, nobody really knows whether that challenge would be successful.

    But it would create a “constitutional crisis”, and whatever that means in terms of the Law, nobody really knows.

    But if it was against the UK Constitution for May & Co to block that referendum, which is possible, it could halt the Article 50 proceedings, as that has to be done in conformance with the member state’s Constitution. And the Scottish Government could use that as leverage.

    That’s the way I look at it.

  169. TheWasp says:

    Isn’t the shadow Scottish secretary a local MP?

  170. Meg merrilees says:

    Thanks Nana – you must have a good reference system!!!

    Hadn’t realised the significance of the admission that it only cost $15 dollars per barrel to produce.

    If I remember it was written up in the Telegraph a few days later only because they referred wrongly to the company as Chrys ‘O’ ar, not Chrys ‘A’ or. But can’t remember if they included the $15 per barrel fact.

    Seems a good news story for once.
    Also, picked up the BP /Grangemouth cancellation.

    BP is mentioned in the same breath as Shell in the Chrysaor article because they both made a large acquisition earlier in the year and they are now refocusing globally possibly in Brazil and Australia, so maybe their capital is best spent there, not on a power station in Scotland.

    Of course it will be presented to us as a case of jitters pre a second indy ref.

  171. North chiel says:

    Alba man @1109 . The BBC agenda is a first reaction to the rising support for Nicola.
    They require leadership of BT 2 and giving “the terrible twins” ( KD &RD)
    a UK wide platform with FULL BACKING from the Westminster state media
    will be the their plan to thwart Independence again.

  172. meg merrilees says:

    Re QT:

    Couldn’t they have got the shadow Secretary of State for Scotland Dave somebody or other ( (sorry forgotten his surname) who comes from that area of north England?

    Maybe they’re trying to make Kezia a household name before she leads up the Better Together 2 Campaign?

  173. WMJunk says:

    “But it would create a “constitutional crisis”, and whatever that means in terms of the Law, nobody really knows.”

    That’s where my concern comes from. I think the UK is already in a constitutional crisis.

    The current situation leaves a one party state. Right as it dives head first into a very shallow, ruthless and unstable world.

    Re QT: That will be ten drinks regarding Dimbley cut offs !

  174. yesindyref2 says:

    @WMJunk “However, in the eyes of the rest of the world it would be hard to deny IndyRef2 post Brexit (Assume General Election 2020) if it were to occur.

    At that point – post-Brexit – the EU and the rest of the world would lose interest, and have no real say in it. And by then Scotland is out of the EU, so there’s then no “material change”, and Scotland would leave the EU and have to apply to get (back) in.

    But before Brexit, with the 62% Remain vote in Scotland, and the SNP manifesto specifically stating “material change” and the EU as a reason for Indy Ref 2, the EU could have an interest as we are part of the EU, are being “dragged out” in spite of our vote, and if a Ref was refused, wouldn’t even be given a chance of escaping the UK and staying in the EU.

    Now that might well interest the EU.

  175. Training Day says:

    I don’t want another referendum. The people on the BBC confirm my view. 50 per cent want to vote yes, but the 75 per cent of us who don’t want another referendum will hold sway.

    On another topic, anyone see Tasmina ‘you’ve had your say’ Ahmed-Sheikh being chipper about walking away from a very nice gig at Westminster?

  176. Liz g says:

    WM Junk
    Well it is just an opinion, don’t have the kind of information that the SNP have…Numbers and stuff.

    It is my understanding that the EU Court does indeed have some input (self determination) while Westminster still has Treaty obligations that are active.

    And again just a ….What if…
    What if the eyes of the world were else where while a Scottish vote were being denied, I gave Irish reunification as an example of something big enough to catch the world’s attention and within Westminster’s gift to engineer.

    I guess what I am really sayin is there is no Trust in Westminster anymore….For anything.
    There is only looking for how they are trying to hurt my country next, and, that’s no how the contract between the people and their Government should be.

    There will be some here in Scotland who won’t like Holyrood running the country,but they could never argue that Holyrood was only ever acting in the interests of another country’s rulers.
    And please don’t be in any doubt…. I don’t think they give a shit about you and yours either.
    Infact if they were actually taking Scotland’s resources to improve people’s lives over the whole of the Island, I would just argue for a new Treaty.
    But they don’t….Never have …Never will…So we have to go!

  177. Mike says:


    Ok I get it now you’re being wilfully ignorant. Its a clear cut statement unambiguous and crystal clear in its meaning.

    You are deliberately denying what is in your face.


    There is no ambiguity in that Statement. Your wilful fake interpretations are blatant examples of deliberate denial of the reality.

    I can only wonder at your motivations.

  178. yesindyref2 says:

    The UK is in a constitutional crisis poltically, regards the EU, Scotland and Northern Ireland. But legally it’s still in the clear, as far as the UK Supreme Court is concerned, and the running of the Brexit Bill through Parliament, both houses. There’s a big difference between politics and Law, specially regarding constituional matters which in the absence of a written constitution, are a mix of laws, precedents, treaties and conventions. The UK is skirting very close to many of them.

    Ultimately of course the UK is still subject to the CJEU / ECJ in terms of the EU treaties, and whatever else it signed up for.

  179. yesindyref2 says:

    @Mike / @Ken500
    Regarding PRT it was a small amount of Revenue, and not that worth considering. It was on its way out anyway, as it’s only old mostly worn out UKCS fields.

    (PRT) “This is a field based tax charged on profits arising from oil and gas production from individual oil and gas fields which were given development consent before 16 March 1993.

  180. Mike says:

    Ken 500

    Here is another Government source telling you the exact same thing.

    “General description of the measure
    This package of measures will permanently zero rate Petroleum Revenue Tax (PRT) payable in respect of profits from oil and gas production in the UK and UKCS – a reduction from 35%, and further reduces the rate of supplementary charge payable in respect of adjusted ring fence profits from 20% to 10%.”


    Again unambiguous crystal clear statement.

  181. Mike says:


    Not surprised you’re jumping in on this.

    PRT initially was worth 75% on every penny of profit made by the Oil industry in the North sea UK sector.

    To try and pretend that was insignificant would beg the question why? What possible motivation would you have in pretending that 75% of profit margins in NS Oil and gas production was insignificant?

  182. Liz g says:

    WM Junk @ 11.33
    Westminster may very well already be in a Constutional crisis,and be about to go of a cliff edge.
    And as you have said that is what concerns you.

    Well…It really doesn’t concern me,why should all that impact my Country’s journey?

    I am afraid that England has voted Tory,and not for the first time.
    She has the government she voted for…We don’t.
    England is getting the Brexit it voted for..We aren’t.

    It may also be fair to say that since we know that Scotland doesn’t want the government or the direction that England has chosen,the decent thing to do is for Scotland to get out of the way… Don’t you think?

  183. WMJunk says:

    Liz g – “I gave Irish reunification as an example of something big enough to catch the world’s attention and within Westminster’s gift to engineer.”

    True but it would take some serious engineering.


    It may interest the EU. But that would take some serious engineering too. Just within the UK, let alone the EU.

    I would be preparing for IndyRef2 without banking on the EU anything. This shouldn’t be feared. The Tories are trying to manipulate IndyRef2 into the UK or bust.

  184. Mike says:

    PRT was the single largest tax charge on Oil production in the North Sea. The Total tax revenue at its peak was 85% on all profit margins. 75% of this total tax take on crude was through PRT. It was PRT more than any other tax on Oil and Gas that allowed the UK to rake in excess of over 300 billion in revenues.

    That’s how insignificant it was.

    Makes you wonder why some punters on here want to deny its significance.

  185. WMJunk says:

    “Ultimately of course the UK is still subject to the CJEU / ECJ in terms of the EU treaties, and whatever else it signed up for.”

    Great Repeal Bill coming up. I don’t mean to antagonise.

    “She has the government she voted for…We don’t.
    England is getting the Brexit it voted for..We aren’t.”

    I completely agree. I’m hoping you guys can escape because I hope (very naively) it would cause a political change in England.

    Anyhow good night and thank you all.

  186. yesindyref2 says:

    Check it out yourself, historically. This only tells part of the tale, but the proportions of total oil revenues due to PRT have been declining for years, as those fields age and are exhausted – up to 1993 remember. New fields and new licences aren’t and haven’t been liable to PRT since 1993.

  187. Liz g says:

    WM Junk @ 12.01
    Ach no really N.I is half way there,and I suspect Westminster has wanted shot of them for a while.
    Never let a good crisis go to waste ..So I hear.

    But while I am on the subject…Which I’m not…But since I have you hear Englishman,can I ask?

    Don’t you think that since a fair few Brexit voter’s are getting very insistent that they did look at all the issues,and knew exactly what they were voting for…..

    They canny think bloody much of us to have voted leave knowing fine well we didn’t want to and that they could out vote us.

    Tells us all we need to know about how much it matters to the English Electorate if the vote caused us to leave.
    Would like to hear your thoughts on it???

  188. yesindyref2 says:

    Sorry – page 6. The point is that if the PRT is inhibiting activiey, and hence extraction from liable fields – which include up to 3 billion barrels from small pools, then all revenue is lost, from corporation tax as well, not just a quarter or less of all revenues.

  189. yesindyref2 says:

    The Grand Repeal Bill at the same time enacts all EU legislation, unless actively repeadled.

    But that doesn’t come in until Brexit, it can’t come in before, or if it does, it can’t remove the ECJ until the day of complete Brexit. So that’s another red herring I’m afraid.

  190. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    WM Junk,

    The basic difficulty is that recent UK governments of all persuasions have been, and continue, behaving in the same monopolist fashion toward Scotland as they did historically to the American colonies. Instead of demonstrating a willingness to cede a reasonable measure of self-autonomy that would have held everything together, they have delivered changes late, reluctantly, with bad grace, and even worse, often in bad faith.

    It is ironic, but just three or so years ago, most people in Scotland would have settled gladly for a significantly enhanced degree of autonomy within the UK, and had they received such, it might have even made it possible to navigate the Brexit process for England+Wales separately from that for Scotland while holding the UK together.

    I believe that historians of the future will look back with dismay at London’s failure to share power meaningfully as the root cause of the disintegration of the UK. Obsessed by a mad fantasy of creating “Empire 2.0” and alienating a majority of people in Scotland by forcing them into an unwanted Brexit on English terms, they will rip the UK apart.

    I believe that Brexit is actually “Suez 2.0”, where UK neo-imperialist fantasies are starkly revealed by real events (such as the imminent EU negotiating position) to be nothing more than empty pipe-dreams.

    It’s not the SNP that has been the real danger to the integrity of the UK, actually, it’s the BritNat absolutists (on both sides of the border). They are losing the arguments, and their bluster and discomfort are becoming greater every day. Only fear of the unknown is holding the UK together, and it’s hanging by a thread.

    Perhaps the split would have come about eventually anyway, but Brexit has brought the process to a head. Scotland has been placed in a constitutionally impossible position by two irreconcilable referenda, and it can only be meaningfully resolved by a new independence referendum.

    It’s almost not even a matter for politicians to decide, really. It just has to happen, and happen within the Brexit timetable. The result, I believe, will be that Scotland will decide (reluctantly for some) that it is fundamentally necessary for its well-being, both socially and economically, to go its own way.

    (This is not driven, incidentally, by any fundamental dislike of the English, as some Unionists have been trying to assert lately. We just wanted more room to move as we pleased, and be treated as equals, and finding it impossible to achieve within the UK, we will have to leave. More and more people in Scotland are coming to realise that a split is actually the most effective way of becoming equals and friends. The upside for the English is that they will then be able to relax and speak again of “England” without worrying about offending anyone!)

  191. Liz g says:

    WM Junk @ 12.11
    Just incase you check back in tomorrow..
    RE.The great repeal bill.
    It won’t be law until the day and hour of the Brexit (the end of the EU treaty agreement) it’s not coming into force bit by bit,but rather sitting there good to go sort of thing.
    So if the yes vote is in by then it would mean that Scotland has voted to strike down the Treaty of the Union, and end her obligations under that treaty,before being part of that Union removes EU citizenship from the Scot’s.

    Also hoping that England has a Political shift,but I hope you understand that we don’t want to be at the mercy of it.

    Goodnight and you are welcome.

  192. WMJunk says:

    “But since I have you hear Englishman,can I ask?

    Don’t you think that since a fair few Brexit voter’s are getting very insistent that they did look at all the issues,and knew exactly what they were voting for…..”

    I maybe English. And I voted remain. Kind of makes unqualified to answer your questions.

    My constituency voted Remain. It’s all good “knowing” what people voted for but some of it wasn’t for West Minster to give. I’d argue the marginal vote didn’t really think but then I am a remainer/remoaner or whatever it’s called. My opinion is that it could ruin the very industries the UK has a comparative advantage in.

    Trumps gone quiet but the USA could pose some serious issues to Brexit and the EU.

    @Robert J. Sutherland

    I agree with most of your opinion. Although I’d swap Neo-Imperialist for something else. Neoliberal Tory clique ?


    Yes very true. Regarding Great Repeal Bill.

  193. Iain More says:

    Who is the smug looking git behind the Dugs right shoulder?

    Meanwhile the Yoons and their quizzer agents are attempting to sook as much oil as they can out of the North Sea and so on as they can before the end of their Empire occurs.

  194. Meg merrilees says:

    Sorry guys, my gut instinct is telling me not to trust WM Junk.

    WM as in Westminster Junk?

    Maybe I’m just paranoid!!!

    Still at least we know that David Davis can’t promise us a tailored immigration deal TM has ruled that out and left him with egg on his face.

    Tonight she’s done the same to Hammond, by putting the Nat. Ins. increase for Self employed on hold until the autumn – he’s got lots of egg on his face.

    Apparently she’s worried about her tiny majority and 20 rebel MP’s.

    Hope they hurry up with this election fraud investigation.

  195. WMJunk says:

    “Sorry guys, my gut instinct is telling me not to trust WM Junk.

    WM as in Westminster Junk?

    Maybe I’m just paranoid!!!”

    I come in peace !

    I stumbled across the conversation. Looking to gauge public opinion. Very unscientific I know.

    Usernames are tough to decide it was the first thing that came to mind.

    Now I must get some sleep.

    Again thanks for the input.

  196. yesindyref2 says:

    I come in peace, take me to your leader!

  197. Mike says:


    “New fields and new licences aren’t and haven’t been liable to PRT since 1993.”

    Who is labelling fields as “New” since 1993?

    PRT has been charged on every single barrel of Oil produced in the North Sea right up until the 1st of Jan 2016. When it was reduced to zero.

    Every single Barrel.

    In 1993 it was 75%. Up to Dec 2015 it was 35% Today it is 0%.

    There is no decline in the worth of Oil in the North Sea just a decline in the willingness of UK Governments to charge taxation on it.
    They are now literally giving it away TAX FREE.
    They actually admit as much in their reports. They say they are doing it in order to encourage more production and greater exploration and exploitation. Which is wonderful for the Industry and the Corporations involved but does nothing for the Scottish or UK economies.

    And it fits in perfectly with the right wing Tory ideology of allowing the private sector to exploit the public sector and feed off it.
    That’s the very nature of Conservative Neo Liberalism.

    Again I ask what is the motivation behind this moronic denials?

  198. Mike says:


    “The point is that if the PRT is inhibiting activiey, and hence extraction from liable fields”

    Jesus Christ you can say the exact same thing about all taxation charges.
    Taxation inhibits everybodies standard of living everybodies efforts to make a profit on anything.

    That’s the Neo Liberal excuse we’re getting for the ideological approach by our Neo Conservative Neo Liberal Government to allow further Private sector exploitation of Public sources in every industry where we have Privatisation.

    What good does it do our economy if we are giving up our public resources to private interests TAX FREE?

    And lets not forget the impact its having on the economic argument for Scottish Independence.

    We’re are being told that NS Oil and Gas is worthless because there is NO TAX coming in from the industry!

    We’re not being told its because of a UK Governments ideological choice and that 10s of billions of revenues could be taken from the massive profits the industry is raking in every day.

    Its bad enough when Google Yahoo and Amazon get a free pass on the bulk of their tax dues this is even worse. This is an industry getting off Scot free from paying ANY DIRECT TAX on their crude production per barrel.

  199. Liam says:

    Robert J. Sutherland said:

    “Instead of demonstrating a willingness to cede a reasonable measure of self-autonomy that would have held everything together, they have delivered changes late, reluctantly, with bad grace, and even worse, often in bad faith.”

    And, at the first opportunity, threatened to take them away again.

  200. Sinky says:

    Mike at 7.55

    Details of Norway’s oil revenues were pubished on 22 February but not reported by BBC or MSM despite oil being a huge issue in Scottish politics.

    Click on download data for excel spreadsheet on breakdown of oil revenues since 1971 see fig data shhet.

    No one has ever explained how Norway can still have effective taxation on oil and with twice UK production in 2015 raised £9.6000 million in oil revenues whereas UK raised £60 milion

  201. Mike says:


    Yes exactly. Norway is showing us that the revenue is there to be taken no matter what the value of Oil is.
    The UK Government in the 70s and 80s charged a total of 85% on every barrel 75% of that was PRT and that was when the price of Oil was as low as $20 a barrel.
    It didn’t prevent the industry from raking in massive profits while the UK Government used the revenues to prop up the entire UK economy for over a decade.
    Had the industry been run as a public service industry the UK would now be enjoying a massive Oil fund greater than that of Norways.
    But Ideological Neo Conservative Neo Liberal values ensured that our greatest asset was filtered off for Private profit instead of for Public welfare and benefit.
    That’s our Union legacy right there and now we’re being told the entire industry is worthless and cant help an Indy Scotland in any way shape or form.
    A campaign of lies and deceit fully supported by a corrupt institutionally owned media circus.
    And its all going unchallenged. Especially by the Scottish Government.
    Why are they so afraid to stand up and tell the truth in public? Why are they so timid when it comes to challenging the lying rhetoric?

  202. Jack Murphy says:

    A message for UKOK Labour and Tories in Scotland.
    Stop your moaning about Scotland’s education—-all is not well in your UKOK England with the Blue Tories in charge.
    I’m aghast that Kezia Dugdale and her supporters cannot see the error of their ways.They would rather swallow this Tory ‘medicine’ for the next 10-20 years! 🙁

    “Head teachers say they are axing GCSE and A-level subjects, increasing class sizes and cutting support services as they struggle with school funding.
    The Association of School and College Leaders says England’s schools have had to make more than £1bn savings this year, rising to £3bn by 2020.”
    Quotes from BBC England on-line TODAY.

  203. Abulhaq says:

    It is to our shame that Davidson and Dugdale are not unique.

  204. robertknight says:

    Dipity Dug is a one trick pony…

    Doesn’t give a fig about Scotland.

    Doesn’t give two hoots about the Yookay.

    She has been instructed that under no circumstances is she to let Scotland go, for to do so would condemn Labour to perpetual opposition at Westminster.

    Dipity only cares about herself, about Labour, and about her Labour chums. Nothing else shows on her radar.

  205. William Brown says:

    Reading economic plans and stats and deficits eventually start hurting my head. There’s just a wee, simple stat that I find curious (albeit I’m being very simplistic):

    UK deficit = £1.7 trillion

    Scottish deficit = 8% of £1.7 trillion = £139 billion

    GERS prediction of Scottish debt on Independence = £15 billion

    Reduction of debt on Independence(on shaky UK figures) = £124 billion?

    Is it just me or is this a no brainer??

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