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Wings Over Scotland

More help for Scottish journalists

Posted on June 16, 2014 by

This morning’s papers report that Labour, the Tories and a small fringe party whose name has slipped our minds for a moment will this week release a statement about their shared commitment to further devolution of powers to Holyrood after a No vote.


We’re sure that Scotland’s journalists are all on top of the situation as usual and will put the statement under microscope-like scrutiny, but just in case, we have a tip.

Labour, for example, propose an increased Holyrood share of Scottish tax revenues, mostly resulting from the devolution of 75% of income tax. This would raise the cumulative effect of tax devolution to Holyrood spending to (they claim) 40% of taxes raised in Scotland, leaving the block grant from Westminster to provide 60% of public expenditure in Scotland.

The three Unionist parties all assert that from 2031 the number of Scots of retirement age will increase by around 30%, combined with a sharp reduction in the Scottish workforce, increasing the “dependency ratio”. Better Together’s “Pensions Factsheet” puts it concisely:

“…in future Scotland will have a bigger proportion of people of retirement age and less people working than in other parts of the UK. It is a big, big challenge.”

They mean “fewer” people, of course. But the claim is that an ageing population will require increased public spending on services at exactly the point a decline in the Scottish workforce reduces overall earnings and leads to lower income tax receipts and implications for other revenues, eg fewer people able to finance house purchases must mean fewer sales, and therefore lower stamp-duty revenues.

The overall effect would then be that while the block grant would contribute 60% of the cost of needs arising from an ageing population, Scotland would be expected to continue to meet the remaining 40% from its own, shrinking revenues – which will already have dropped below even the level required to maintain existing services.

(And obviously if the Tory plan for Holyrood controlling all Scottish income tax was to be introduced, then that future would logically become even more difficult.)

We’re sure, then, that some alert reporter will inquire what the Unionist parties each plan as a remedy. (After all, the SNP have identified places where they’ll save money, most notably hundreds of millions from defence but also elsewhere.)

In the new post-No devo-schmevo Scotland, with hundreds of millions of pounds being sucked out of the budget to pay for needless tax-collecting bureaucracy on top of the demographic “timebomb” the Unionists keep warning about, will we have higher tax levels? Even bigger cuts to public spending than in the rest of the UK? An end to universal services like free prescriptions and personal care?

Or is their argument that the rest of the UK will simply happily bail Scotland out with more and more cash from London, as the declining oil revenues they also never stop going on about make Scots even more of a burden on the poor UK taxpayer?

It’s not unreasonable to ask, is it?

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  1. 16 06 14 11:54

    More help for Scottish journalists | Scottish Independence News

178 to “More help for Scottish journalists”

  1. Seasick Dave says:

    That big sign that says, “Press”; does the floor open up if you press it?

  2. Glenn says:

    Interesting incident on BBC Breakfast’s Scottish news report at 6:30 this morning. Following a report on the combined statement mentioned above, the broadcast went on to talk about the EY Scottish Item Club’s forecast of economic growth over the next year. This report concluded by pointing out that the forecaster warns that the Referendum however carries risks for the economy….( I paraphrase here)…”whether the vote is for Yes or for No with extra tax responsibilities”. So according to the BBC, its now Yes vs an embellished No. Interestingly, my wife later sent me a text to say that this “embellishment” was missing from the same news item when it featured at 7am. Do you think someone complained and they actually took notice?

  3. Jim Thomson says:

    Succinctly put, Keith.

    But we all know that there are no journalists who ever read Wings. Anathema.

    I do keep hoping though 🙂

  4. Neil Craig says:

    But only 3 of the 4 main parties – Better Together is a very exclusive kaffeeklatsch.

    There does seem to be a problem with you arguing both that Scotland needs total separation and that we cannot survive with slightly more separation than currently.
    The answer is, of course, a growing economy but that is something all 5 Holyrood parties are desperate to prevent us having (though only the Greens are honest enough to, sometimes, admit it).

  5. Doug Daniel says:

    They could perhaps also ask, amongst other things:
    1. Why these things were not included in the Scotland Act 2012
    2. What’s stopping the UK government from devolving these powers now
    3. Why devolution continues to be a case of “you’ll get what we decide” rather than asking what Scots want devolved

    The answers to these questions would perhaps nudge any “I want more powers but not full independence” folk over the line to a Yes vote… Which is exactly why they won’t ask them.

  6. kalmar says:

    “extra tax responsibilities” actually sounds a bit negative though, who wants extra tax!? Perhaps that was the reason they dropped it.

  7. Kenneth Shaw says:

    A good read and quite apt after listening to B.B.C Scotland discuss forced marriages this morning …..

  8. Jim Thomson says:

    @Doug Daniel it would also be nice to have a definitive answer on how the “Scottish” flavours of the parties can guarantee that their, predominantly English, MPs and Lords will step aside and let it all through.

    BBC has the following (which is sort of on-topic) in which they witter on about productivity and state that UK is about 20% lower than other “leading G7 nations” – errmmm, there are only SEVEN of them, so how far down do we feature?

    And, just a wee thought, would an Indy Ecosse have enough “wealth” to become a member of a Gn group? If so, what value would the “n” have?

  9. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    So, we get a larger tax responsibility and a reducing repatriation of our tax we send south to Westminster thereby forcing whoever is in Government in Scotland to put up the taxes we have to gather ourselves?

    Then the increased oil tax revenues from the West Coast Offshore well comes in and London wins even more, again.

    Sounds like a great deal!

    Where does Mickey Mouse sign?

  10. gordoz says:

    UK journalism in Scotland is very much alive and well – what the Hell happened to Scottish Journalism ? As conspicuous as the activities of the Scottish Wildcat.

    How anyone with any trace of sense will believe the NO Campaign guff about’promised’ more powers or the much suggested ‘Devo Max’ (Katie Grant / ‘Headlines Radio Scotland yesterday – yet again).

    Undecided – please remember ‘NO Campaign’ barred the Devo max question from the ballot paper (you have to ask yourself why?).

    The Labour / Tory unholy coalition ( + TV & Press core) has reluctantly been dragged kicking & screaming to this point of an actual referendum by a very, very successful & popular Scottish Government – No one else.

    The UK supporting patries will say & promise anything but please remember no matter what little they offer, it must be passed by a very hostile GB parliament (both commons and Lords).

    Far better to take this opportunity of developing a ‘real, Normal country’ from the much coveted natural and human resources we now have, than the prosepct of being a ‘jettisoned’ rogue region / province once the said resources are largely depleted and exhausted; because thats the alternative future, that the Unionists dont want to be honest about.

  11. Glenn says:

    As I said, I was paraphrasing (I can’t quite remember the exact wording). The implication that I got from the statement though was that were already buying into the “guaranteed powers” line and saying that its no longer simply Yes vs No, but Yes vs “New and Improved!!” No. I wish I could see that 6:30 report again. Have to admit, i was still kind of dozy at the time!

  12. Melanie McKellar says:

    See the Ian Lang Scotland Bill piece from a few weeks ago!
    In my view he effectively warned about the Scotland Act Tax ‘give away’ to Holyrood together with the the £4.5bn proposed cut in the block grant would mean at least a 7% tax increase (and that would be across the board as 1 level cannot increase alone) just for Scotland to remain the same. He warned that public services would need to be cut unless Scotland increased tax by an additional 8% meaning that it would become 15% higher than the rUK.
    So even though it is quite clear that Scotland has the resources and the potential to be a wealthy self-standing Nation, under a future Westminster budget Scotland will have a higher tax threshold than the rest of the UK with a much smaller public sector than we have now. Of course they could withdraw Tuition Fees, free prescriptions, bus passes, personal care and bring Scotland back in line with rUK that would reduce the tax strain… a wee bit …sounds like a train crash to me!

  13. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Incidentally on R 4 this morning the visit by the Chinese PM (me neither) and his trade delegation.

    Germany exports £72 billions to China last year, see they still make things that people want to buy, and we are up from about £8 billion to over £12 billion, projected annualisation. Hurrah!

    What they didn’t say was the growth was almost entirely due to Scotch Whisky exports.

  14. msean says:

    Devo max isn’t on the ballot.

  15. Walking on Sunshine says:

    The unionist parties are offering very little, all different, and with nothing guaranteed.

    It is a pig in a poke and an insult to our intelligence.

    They were offered devo max on the ballot paper and they refused it. They had their chance.

    They realise the gap is narrowing and they will promise anything to anybody at anytime.

    I don’t believe a word they say.

  16. good questions, Doug Daniel, let’s see which of our top journos have the _____ to ask them.

  17. gordoz says:

    @Doug Daniel

    As Doug says why are these ‘Devo’ ideas only on offer now, at the eleventh hour ? – Brown and Darling had control of the UK reins for a substantial period.

    Forget DEVO max; its a myth that would never get through Westminster system (no chance). No constitutional guarantees.

    Go for DEMO max – and thats Independence ! (nothing less)

  18. Dcanmore says:

    Simple fact remains that if Scotland stays within the UK structure it will continue to pay £billions every year for the privilege without any obvious gain.

    Scotland is a cash cow past, present and future as well as a convenient dump for all things radioactive. Maintaining this position allows pro-union Scottish politicians to be rewarded with titles, baubles, trinkets and directorships of private companies and banks.

    Scotland as a country, as a vibrant society, has been in deliberate managed decline since 1979. To allow the place to be nothing more than a retirement home will be to extinguish Scotland altogether. It’s not hard to see that Westminster politicians want generations of Scotland’s young and mobile graduates to flee elsewhere while representing constituencies with appalling life expectancy and high counts of child poverty.

    This doesn’t happen by accident, this is ideological design and the proof being that Scotland is a wealthy nation inhabited by poor people.

  19. desimond says:

    ‘fewer people able to finance house purchases’ –

    That may not quite be true. Under the Unionists, all the pensioners houses will all be getting auctioned off to pay for their vital healthcare so the carpetbaggers, I mean home-buyers market might be fullsome.

  20. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    I expected that Devo FA to be pumped up about 6 weeks or so before the Referendum.

    That they are doing it, or at l;east trailering it this early smells of fear.

    Pretty near to bottom of their sack of tricks, and this early too!

    Wonder what would the last throw of the dice; hit squad into Bath or talks in George Square and Holyrood annuled unilaterally?

    “Warning Approaching Meteorite Shower”

  21. Angus McLellan says:

    @Jim Thomson: An independent Scotland wouldn’t be in a G-anything. But it would be in the OECD.

    You can see the OECD’s stats for labour productivity (or “GDP per hour worked”) here on OECD Stats. If you sort them, you’ll see that Finland and Switzerland came below the UK, which could be a clue that crude labour productivity doesn’t mean all that much.

  22. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    tanks in George Square

    effin automatic spelling corrector

  23. desimond says:

    Are these 2031 figures calculated by the same folk who advise on Oil revenue?

    I Love this BT line, tongue is so sharp its double edged:

    The good news is that we are all living longer. However, this means in future Scotland will have a bigger proportion of people of retirement age and less people working than in other parts of the UK

  24. Training Day says:

    There will be no scrutiny – zero, nada, zilch – of the devo max claims of the Unionist parties by MSM ‘journalists’.

    Instead, those ‘journalists’ will enthusiastically repeat the vapid assertions of those parties without demur, and will effectively act as cheerleaders for those parties.

    Hope that’s clear.

  25. cearc says:

    BtP, @11.27,

    Don’t forget the salmon. There has been no recession in that industry. As with whisky, it is growing.

    The deal to be able to sell China salmon must have ‘netted’ quite a bit by now.

  26. gordoz says:

    “Labour, the Conservatives and Lib Dems have resisted calls for a united approach, saying they will present their individual offers to the electorate in a UK general election to take place after the referendum”
    – from NNS today

    Better Together ehh !!! (United and all that !)

    Jam a bit further down the road – (honest !)

    Ahh the ‘NO more Scotland campaign’ – the gift that keeps on giving.

  27. the water beastie says:

    One DK/N voter said to me that they understood it was AS that had blocked DevoMax from being on the ballot paper – I was gobsmacked by the scale of The Big Lie that they had swallowed, and couldn’t get a link to reporting at the time to indicate that it was CMD/the No side that blocked it. Can anybody direct me to a good report for this, please, to forward?


  28. Kenny says:

    On the pensions issue, I’m sure I saw recently that the UK Government had accepted that the resppnsibility for current state pensions still lie with it after independence, since they’ve collected all the NI up to now and it’s they with whom pensioners have a contract. Can anyone give me a citation for that?

    Also, has anyone got any idea what the Bank of England would actually do if we were forced to withdraw the issuing bank deposits as well as taking our share of the gold and other reserves?

  29. manandboy says:

    99% of the Governments of the World,
    with one exception,
    are envious of Scotlands’ wealth of resources,
    in particular it’s mineral wealth, oil & gas.

    They say that if they had what Scotland has,
    it would transform their countries and the lives of their people.

    The exception is England.

    No one could have guessed that.

    Let’s make no mistake.

    For David Cameron and the Eton Gang at Westminster

    the Referendum is just a smart word

    for a robbery.

    And for them, it is absolutely VITAL

    that it is successful.

    Stop the thieves.

    Vote Yes

  30. Luigi says:

    DevoTAX? – well, maybe, just a little bit more
    (after we have discussed it for another 10 years).

    DevoMax? – nae chance!

  31. MajorBloodnok says:

    …in future Scotland will have a bigger proportion of people of retirement age and less people working than in other parts of the UK.

    There are (at least) two things wrong with this that they have conveniently ignored.

    One is that the UK retirement age is set to increase substantially over the next few years so that older folk will in fact still be in work and contributing tax. The second point is that due to Scotland’s generally poor health record more older people will die even before they get to retire, compared to the rest of the UK.

    And of course Scottish tax payers put in as much as the rest of the UK but get fewer years of a pension in return. Another Union dividend.

  32. Marker Post says:

    Yeah, “cause 70% of income tax kind of feels right”. J Lamont, economist.

  33. NickR says:

    Giving us partial tax raising powers means nothing as long as Westminster controls the balance. If Scotland needs 100 and raises 80 itself, Westminster still controls whether we get the full 100 or not and can opt to give us 10 or 15 instead of the 20!

    Further,we replicate the UK tax raising authorities without actually saving anything on the existing HMRC infrastructure whereas an independent Scotland whilst needing its own revenue service, would not have to pay for RUk’s

    Finally the tax for which control is needed to make a difference is corporation tax and there is no way Westminster is going to do anything that might allow us to make it more attractive for companies to move here rather than London.

    Just on a slightly different but related point, whilst there has been a huge amount of misinformation about the cost of setting up government services in an independent Scotland, to what extent are those costs invested in new Scottish jobs and partially funded by not paying for the likes of the DVLA in Cardiff?

  34. Adrian B says:

    @ the water beastie,

    David Cameron was the one who wanted one simple question (No deco option) listen to the video piece – it couldn’t be clearer who had to have a single question

  35. Adrian B says:

    damn auto correct feature. deco should be devo.

  36. Alabaman says:

    Please tell me this, surely “they” can only indicate what exstra powers Westminster would give, because with the Scottish M.P.s consisting of less that 10% of the M.P.s in the house, I cannot see that a full agreement could be reached , and that is without considering the reaction in the ” House of Wasters”, is this not just “pie in the sky” ?.

  37. Clootie says:

    So they get together and put all the pigs in one poke. They don’t give any constructive alignment just a very public “trust us “. Now which one will win the GE? An alliance is unlikely unless Labour or Tories are less than a dozen seats short of an overall majority (the LibDems will lose 45 seats)

    Will it be in the manifesto of each party?
    Will it get through party review?
    Will it be amended?
    Will the other main party vote against it because it is not the model they supported?
    Will it get through the Lords (amended or otherwise)
    Will the Barnett formulae be part of the deal to get English MP’s on board.
    Will we have austerity cuts AND Barnett cuts (we have no plans at present speech:D)
    Will you be daft enough to believe this shabby con?

    Never mind we will still have food banks, Trident replacement, H2S, and we will be out of Europe.

    When they announce the new oil fields being developed as the oil prices rise I suggest you claim to have voted YES to avoid humiliation from friends and family.

  38. MajorBloodnok says:

    @Adrian B

    Art Devo is just like Art Deco, except with the naughty bits left in.

  39. IcySpark says:

    The third episode of the indyref weekly review by Stephen Paton is now up on youtube.

  40. joe kane says:

    But hold on, Ian Duncan Smith of the Better Together campaign has a great plan on how to save money and make the state pension system more affordable and more efficient. The man’s a genius. What could possibly go wrong?

    State pension service could be privatised under DWP plans
    09 Feb 2014

  41. Ali says:

    We need to get the message across to people in Scotland that its the money that comes from oil, whisky, food exports etc that makes us rich. This is the one area no WM party is willing to give us power over. Devolving income tax raising powers while WM controls our resources, block grant and defence spending is a trap.

  42. heedtracker says:

    “It’s a big big challenge” Ah projectfear linguistics of UKOK spivs and hucksters. Scottish History has rather a lot to work with in teamGB.

  43. bunter says:

    Landmark speech on Scotlands constitution is interrupted by report of Michael Schumacher’s health.

    14 weeks to go and the BBC shows its priorities, clear as day.( No harm to Mr Schumacher).

  44. heedtracker says:

    PM Cameron headed this campaign too and who remembers the teamGB fury at FIFA corruption and Qatar is a meany? Trust these guys and you’re on hiding to nothing.

  45. bunter says:

    Oh and the Chinese visit No10. Cue question from the BBC later on the indy question.

  46. Murray McCallum says:

    By incorrectly framing the independence referendum as Alex Salmond’s and a few individuals’ dream, the Better Together press have effectively painted the Unionists into a corner.

    Given the distorted picture they have painted, how can they possibly convince the English MPs / electorate to grant more powers to the Scottish Parliament?

  47. desimond says:

    Make no mistake, any actual implementation of “more powers/responsibility” will be placed on the to do list. After any No vote the first Queens speech will met huge MP applause when Betty states “My Governent will implement the rapidly drawn up “Union Guarantee Bill” to ensure Westminster never have to deal with those uppity Scots again except for folk like Dame Davidson, Baroness Lamont and Sir Blair MacDougall of Pacific Quay’

  48. Andrew Parrott says:

    The Scottish Independence Bill: A Consultation on an Interim Constitution for Scotland is now available on the Scottish Government website under publications.

  49. joe kane says:

    This could almost pass for a new Unionist campaign slogan –
    …“guilty of oversimplifying” the new pension to emphasise its appeal.

    Now that the Royal Mail and NHS England have been stolen from the public, the neoliberal Westminster elite are now trying to work out ways of handing over the highly lucrative DWP £100 billion state pensions systems to their fellow corrupt parasite pals in the City of London. Pensioners are already starting to feel the effects of their “reforming” shenanigans –
    One million pre-retirees to receive less than £155 ‘flat-rate’ state pension
    The Telegraph
    13 June 2014

  50. bookie from hell says:

    jim murphy

    “We know that the decision undecided voters are coming to is a considered one. ‘No Thanks’ matches that sentiment. It is thoughtful, polite but firm.”

  51. hetty says:

    This makes my blood boil, to quote my dad. The lies that bt are bombarding the Scottish people with are despicable. We all know that devo nowt is what we will get if it is a no vote.
    So one scenario being, people vote no having believed these utter lies, then realise fairly quickly, they were just that and their bus passes are no longer valid anywhere, and that their local library closes down. Worse than that, future generations will suffer much more than they and all because they were deluded and selfish. It has to be a YES for Scotland to have any future at all.

  52. Jamie Arriere says:

    @Water beastie

    This was the UK Government’s response as a result of their own consultation pre-referendum, posted on the BBC

    Note the clear proposal for a single question, as Independence and further devolution are “separate issues”. Really? I think they’re finding out now how linked they are.

  53. Murray McCallum says:

    I hope someone asks Ian Davidson MP of the Scotland Office Select Committee how his vision of “bayoneting the wounded” fits in with OneNation Labour’s rush to keep revising and promising new powers to the Scottish Parliament.

  54. cynicalHighlander says:

    An interesting half hour episode.

  55. Sinky says:

    Not sure how the promised extra powers squares with fact that the most popular party south of the border in the most recent nationwide elections, UKIP, wants to scrap the Scottish Parliament.

  56. muttley79 says:

    Training Day is right, there will be no scrutiny of the unionists by the MSM because they are on the same side as each other. Anyone who watched the shameless performance of Kirsty Scott yesterday on the Sunday Politics show will realise that they have no intention of even asking basic questions of the No campaign.

    Incidentally, Devo max is properly defined as meaning that all powers par foreign policy/defence, and a few taxes would be devolved to Holyrood. Therefore, the MSM are flat out lying when they say a No vote will mean we get Devo-max. Devo-max means we would get all the oil revenues, most of taxation powers, all of energy, all welfare powers etc. Devo-max is basically independence without having a foreign policy and keeping Trident (which admittedly are huge things). It is obvious why unionists rejected it, it is more or less independence, and it would be very difficult to implement.

    Is sum: the MSM are lying to us.

  57. Robert Peffers says:

    Anyone remember the WWI/WWII, “SNAFU”, acronym?

    It describes the normal MSM correctly.

  58. MajorBloodnok says:

    I think Ian Davidson MP was just showing his support for the Sheffield Steel industry.

  59. Jamie Arriere says:

    Also from the ScotGov consultation, 62% wanted single question – so no Alex Salmond ‘stitch-up’.

  60. heedtracker says: How to exclude yourselves from the referendum and fight desperately to shut it down, No. 1048.

    If it is a projectfear win, that crew up there at the BBC in particular will simply rub out most if not all “joint further powers and pledges” Whatever it actually is, it will be too BBCexpensive, will of the BBCmajority say no to any further AlicSamindevo, why bother its too risky, WestminsterBBC knows best and above all else, forgive the yes voters.

    No wonder people are planning to emigrate if bloated liars like Carmicheal, Bliar McLiar do win.

  61. galamcennalath says:

    “Scottish Independence Bill: a consultation on an interim constitution for Scotland”

    “35 Repeal of the Act of Union
    The Union with England Act 1707 is repealed.”


  62. Adrian B says:

    s sum: the MSM are lying to us.

    I think that as the referendum becomes closer the fact that the description being used by the MSM is Devo Max will actually move the Westminster parties towards a discussion around a future of a federal UK.

    None of this will happen – its all about setting up policy in the 2015 election – were people vote for their own choice across any number of different party policies.

    If Scots want more Devolution of powers to Hollyrood then the only way to get the power/powers that we actually want to get it to vote democratically at the referendum to give power to the parliament in Edinburgh and as an added bonus the people of Scotland will therefor become sovereign.

  63. Robert Kerr says:


    Does that mean I shall be eviscerated by clinically clean stainless steel rather than rusty old WWI blades?

  64. Les Wilson says:

    Sorry O/T on a brief lighter note, Greg Moodie has an amusing new cartoon ” An Ordinary mum”. Click the first picture and scroll down.

  65. Liquid Lenny says:

    Rev, come on we know you don’t know anything about Scottish Journalism, were you not told this the other day on TV 🙂

  66. orri says:

    My understanding was that Devo-Max was everything devolved other than defense and foreign policy. Greenland and Denmark in other words although in their case some foreign policy is different as Greenland aren’t in the EU. Definitely not what’s on offer by any of the unionist parties. The obvious problem they have with that concept is that it’s really yet another step towards full independence and in the case of Greenland it’s exactly what was intended.
    As to tax raising powers the combined desire of both Labour and Tories is that we couldn’t go above the rUK rates or below them. The one thing we get is an additional body collecting the tax “set” in Scotland to pay for as well as the central tax office or assuming we’re allowed to subcontract it back to the UK we’ll probably be levied a service charge we’ll be unable to decline.

  67. heedtracker says:

    BBC in Pacific Quay currently have 2 er challenges to contend with, ensure a BetterTogether win 18th Sept, then get Labour in Scotland elected.

    BBC/ukok media success means FM Johann Lamont has her hands on whatever devo promises her ukok colleagues are currently shysting Scotland with right now. So if your doing stuff like planning a uni and college career or retiring soon, think on.

    BBC helped Thatcherite Westminster annihilate UK mining industry, then helped them destroy Scottish industry. This is all pretty straight forward bettertogether stuff going in on BBC/ITV news rooms in London and Glasgow.

  68. Jamie Arriere says:

    This explains why Labour are getting away with calling their half-arsed proposals “Devo Max” – because they are the “maximum devolution that Scotland would want”.

    Well I never – is that a fact?

  69. dennis mclaughlin says:

    ‘The Revolution will NOT be Televised’…..

    Watch yer backs folks,the Establishment has a hair trigger.

  70. HandandShrimp says:

    I think we already know that the likes of the BBC are devoid of any sort of investigative journalism. They will simply run with You’ll Get No Thanks official press releases. They may even run with all three parties’ press releases even they are contradictory…presumably hoping no one will notice.

    I think the No Thanks slogan should be “Never mind the quality look at the width”

  71. Mary Bruce says:

    galamcennalath says: “Scottish Independence Bill: a consultation on an interim constitution for Scotland”

    In response John McTernan tweeted “Pretty sure the constitution remains reserved whatever the result of the referendum.”

    The mind boggles.

  72. Kenny says:

    On the partial devolution of income tax, I want someone to ask what happens to Scotland if the basic rate of income tax is cut substantially or if the threshold is raised significantly. It seems to me that with a 20% rate (Westminster controlling 10% and Holyrood the other 10%), then the UK Government reviving the 10p rate, the Scottish Government would have to effectively set a zero rate here to avoid a fairly unpleasant bit of tax competition. The UK Government could probably afford to do that because the additional spending in the real economy would flow back in VAT, corporation tax and maybe even a wee bit of employment growth. Scotland wouldn’t see much (if any) of that return but would have actually had to cut its own budget just to stay on a level. Beware of Greeks bearing extra powers, people…

  73. G. P. Walrus says:

    I like how they are standing in front of a big speech bubble that lists the increased powers they all agree on.

  74. Molly says:

    42 Lamentable Street

    Dear Tom,
    I know it’s a while since I’ve seen you and I hope your still enjoying your life in New Zealand . Your Mum told me, how the Company gave you a place to stay for 6 wks until you could find your own place and the use of the Company car to do it. You won’t find many like that.

    Your Mum also said , you’ve met a nice girl , whose Mum and Dad are Scottish, it’s a small World ?

    She said, they had been telling her, they used to save their small GB pension ( until the rammie) to come back to Scotland every couple of years , for old times sake and that’s really why I’m writing.

    You’ll know how great things are now in Scotland, we’ve really made progress and I feel as ( my favourite ) nephew, you shouldn’t miss out.

    Your uncle Archie and me are retired now. We’ve plenty of time on our hands and living the high life. We’re paying more tax noo and couldn’t be happier. It means we get to still use the hospital, well the bits that are left because remember they PPi things , well because we’re getting to pay more tax to keep things the same, the Secretary of State for Scotland manny, said we’d be better paying more tax so we could pay the likes of that PPI off first , than spend our money on free prescriptions and because , well your uncle Archie’s blood pressure has been fine, although sometimes when his face goes all red and he’s got things floating in front of his eyes, it makes you wonder what he’s been up to…

    Janine’s left the school now because and again because we pay more tax, she’s got a good job. The Company she works for are really flexible, they haven’t tied her down to any contract so when she finishes at midnight, the rest of the nights her own.

    She was talking about going to College or University but I told her , you’ve got to choose, you can either pay more tax or you can pay your tuition fees but you cannot have it both ways( well she could pay both but you know what the young ains are like?)

    Anyway, you’d hardly recognise the place, the social works away now, even though, the Council workers all offered to pay more tax.They had to close it down because well there was only really Brian the bucketman, Shirley manning the phones and the Head of the Council left because, even with all the old folk having paid their tax, an awful lot of them decided they’d rather pay for their buses , to get to the new shops that have sprung up all over,where you get to try fancy food. Mrs Benvie , down the street says some of the tins can last a week, if your careful.

    Anyway, I realise you’d maybe counted as an immigrant if you were to come back and not sure if your Masters degree would still be valid because there’s not the same need for new roads since the ‘incident’ at Faslane. Still , we’ll keep paying for it because the politicians tell us, it keeps us safe and that head man who spent the day in Scotland last week , he’s sorted out the flaming taps from his shale gas so I’m sure it’ll not be long until we’ re paying the same as the rest of the World for our gas and electricity too so keep that in mind.

    Anyway Tom, I hope your keeping well and you’ll consider this opportunity and just think a young thing like you, would only need to work another 50 years to get they benefits, I bet they don’t offer those kind of things in New Zealand ?

    Love Aunty Jean

  75. Clootie says:

    Why don’t Milliband / Cameron and Clegg step in and guarantee the additional powers?
    Is that a stupid question : D

  76. muttley79 says:

    @Mary Bruce

    John McTernan’s grasp of democracy is as shaky as his grasp on reality. Kevin McKenna absolutely filleted him yesterday in his column.

  77. gerry parker says:

    @ Mary Bruce.

    “In response John McTernan tweeted “Pretty sure the constitution remains reserved whatever the result of the referendum.””

    Can you get a screen shot of that, I can’t believe anyone could say something like that.

    A boggled mind here too.

  78. Chic McGregor says:

    OT OK I know its mid month, but feel this blatant plug for the BFS fundraiser is timely because it will run out in a couple of weeks.

    I have donated to Labour for Independence AND to Business for Scotland, because BOTH want an end to Westminster/Whitehall abuse of our country and both, I firmly believe, will strive for a fairer Scotland after independence.

  79. Grouse Beater says:

    Vote No and after a time we might give you more powers … if you’re good.

    Just don’t expect powers yours to keep or control.

  80. Democracy Reborn says:


    Your understanding of what “devo-max” originally meant is spot on.

    Since then the unionist parties, aided by a slavishly subservient MSM, have re-defined it to mean….well, anything they want it to mean. Bit more collection/variation of income tax, airguns, ‘alleviating’ the impact of the bedroom tax….yeah, right. By no yardstick are any of the the various proposals devo-max.

    At best we get the privilege of collecting some more of our “pocket money” (a la Ruthie). And despite already paying a proportionate share of HMRC costs to Westminster, we would have to incur the cost of setting up the admin structures to collect the proposed devolved income tax, thereby giving a net reduction in the block grant. You simply couldn’t make it up.

    So the new poster for No should in fact be:-


  81. Grouse Beater says:

    I bet they don’t offer those kind of things in New Zealand?


    New Zealand Cannot Exist – grousebeater.wordpress

  82. Derek M says:

    what a horrible shower of liars ,rogues and parasites if you swallow this tripe then you deserve all you get and at Robert Peffers i much prefer “FUBAR”
    vote yes to get rid of these scumbags once and for all.

  83. Grouse Beater says:

    McTernan said: Pretty certain the [sic] constitution remains reserved whatever the result of the referendum.”

    Even in cases of absolute pig ignorance better to spread uncertainty and doubt that withhold opinion.

  84. Kev says:

    In the event of a No vote (I know, it doesn’t bear thinking about) all the Unionist parties will probably begin campaigning for the General Election within a couple of months. Anyone who believes that they will suddenly delay penning their manifestos in order to make Scotland their top priority, or that somehow whilst they’re knocking lumps out of each other every week on the telly, Cameron, Milliband, Clegg and Farage will all get together at the weekends to sit in a room and amicably agree on future powers for a part of the UK that is irrelevant to the election outcome, is either in serious need of immediate mental assistance… or a BBC political correspondent.

  85. desimond says:


    Bravo, absolutely brilliant.

  86. Adrian B says:

    John McTernan’s comments on twitter:

    Pretty sure the constitution remains reserved whatever the result of the referendum.

  87. desimond says:

    A brief look at all the Union heads Diaries would no doubt show the Devo max talks marked in under “The Long Grass Initiative”

  88. HandandShrimp says:

    “In response John McTernan tweeted “Pretty sure the constitution remains reserved whatever the result of the referendum.””

    I am baffled as to what he could possibly be thinking when he typed that. It conjures up a bizarre notion of an independent Scotland checking with Westminster if it is OK to change Scotland’s constitution…that is so not going to happen.

    I do see from to time to time comments that seem to indicate that if it is Yes vote somehow Westminster can over-rule the result and say it is not happening. Is McT one of those?

  89. TJenny says:

    Molly – I concur with desimond’s statement re your comment/story, but could I ask you to remember to please press enter twice after the end of a paragraph (you need to do it twice for this website’s formatting) as not putting these para breaks in, makes it quite difficult to read, for those of us who are optically challenged. Oh, and it usually incurs the Rev’s wrath – Eeek! Fortunately, he seems to be occupied elsewhere today. 🙂

  90. Derek M says:

    O/T have i done something wrong Stu that i am on moderation? if i have i humbly apologize to everybody and promise to be on my best behavior 🙁

  91. TJenny says:

    Derek M – have you checked you’ve typed your moniker and email address in properly? That’s one of the most common probs – other than that, it could easily be the ongoing DOS attacks. It’s not usually personal (unless you’re a troll). 🙂

  92. Derek M says:

    O/T thank you T Jenny i was racking my brain trying to figure out if i had crossed a line ,my first post came up with awaiting moderation but my second didnt ,my moniker and email
    are correct ,a DOS attack now thats just underhanded and last time i looked i wasnt a troll 🙂

  93. MajorBloodnok says:

    [spoiler alert]

    Devo-Max = Full Fiscal Autonomy.

    Funny how the unionists seem to think they can call whatever they have discussed amongst themselves and thereafter may deign to grant us ‘Devo-Max’ and then expect us to fall for it.

    From my conversations with the public, where someone states they’d prefer more devolution/devo-max, they have a pretty good idea what that comprises and won’t be fooled by this hogwash from the congenitally perfidious Unionists and their lackeys in the BBC.

    Note to unionists – people want to know what those powers actually are and how they will be implemented, they won’t be fooled into voting no for some vague thing labeled “Devo Max (do not open until after May 2015)”, when that’s quite likely what it isn’t.

  94. HandandShrimp says:


    Seems unlikely as I can read your message.

    If there was a mistake in your email address/name or if you posted something without paragraph breaks it automatically goes in the pending queue. If is a mistake Stu will fix it, if it is paragraph breaks he comes round to your house with a baseball bat.

  95. Vince Diaz says:

    From Stephen Noon, Chief Strategist for Yes Scotland.

    People know us by what we do, not what others say about us

    Throughout my time with the independence movement, our opponents have tried to label us as extreme, threatening, angry, dangerous, vile, abusive, bigoted etc etc. It’s always been possible to locate an oddball associated in some way with the party or campaign, because Scotland has its fair share of the world’s oddballs.

    In days gone by, the oddballs were more difficult to find but in the era of the internet they are only a quick google search away.

    Back in the nineties, and even in the early noughties, these attacks did cause some damage to the independence cause, because the electorate knew very little about the SNP and few people had the experience of being represented by someone from the SNP.

    By 2011 that had changed and the over the top attacks by our opponents claiming the independence movement was extreme, threatening, angry, dangerous, vile, abusive, bigoted etc not only had no negative impact on SNP support, they began, in fact, to backfire.

    Research we undertook in the run up to the 2011 election, which led directly to the focus on the ‘team’ aspect in the SNP’s campaign, showed that the people of Scotland had good experiences of the SNP people they met or had dealings with. From party members or supporters to elected representatives, they saw the SNP team as most like them, most normal, most in touch. And so, when they heard our opponents claim we were extreme, threatening, angry, dangerous, vile, abusive, bigoted etc it just didn’t chime with their real life experience.

    They judged us on what we did and who we actually were rather than what opposition politicians said about us. And, equally, they were less trusting in the other claims the opposition were making about the NHS or the economy. The over-egged attacks caused more damage to the attackers.

    It is difficult, sometimes, seeing a wall of headlines based on the indefensible behaviour of a few online eejits and to see our movement being tarred with the same brush. However, we should be confident that the best and only way to deal with this onslaught, over-egged once again by our opponents, is to carry on being ourselves in the real world. Carry on leaving good impressions on every doorstep and in every face to face conversation. Show who we are, once again, by our passion, commitment, energy, belief and absolute confidence in the people of Scotland. That is what people will see and what they will remember about Yes.

    The No camp think they are causing us damage by highlighting the misbehaviour of a very few online, horrendous as it is. If we in Yes allow ourselves to be dragged on to this ground with recriminations and anger, then they might succeed. However, if we demonstrate, by our actions, the reality of our movement, have no doubt, their tactics, as in 2011, will backfire. Our grassroots are the most important part of our campaign and our most important job in these days ahead is to keep doing what we’ve been doing. Keep the spring in our step. Keep up the open and honest engagement. And, we will win.

  96. orri says:

    McTernan’s comment might have had the desired effect if it wasn’t for the fact that Westminster went through the whole face saving exercise of temporarily devolving the powers needed to hold a binding referendum. Can we assume that he thinks we’ve the memory capacity of a goldfish and will actually accept what seems to be a desperate attempt to set the scene for a get out clause in case Scotland says YES.

    Not only that but as he’s meant to be somehow in charge of the No campaign why is he even admitting that they might lose at this point in the game?

  97. MajorBloodnok says:

    Actually now I think of it – every time someone says “You’ll defo be getting devo max if you vote no, trust us,” just ask “So is that the same as full fiscal autonomy, then? (And if not, why not?).”

  98. Archie [not Erchie] says:

    BADGE ALERT – For the ultimate in the Wings Fashion department just take a look at these :

    I hope Ken McDonald has several thousand available.

  99. Derek M says:

    paragraphs? wats that i went to skool in the thatcher times so got no edumacation lol

  100. Grouse Beater says:

    McTearitup’s Law.


    During poll hours on the 18th the people of Scotland are sovereign, in toto – we can declare a bloody republic if we want!

  101. handclapping says:

    Belter from McT! He sounds just like Lard Wallace of Tanktop, Dr Lard Celtic or any of the others in the graveyard of the dinosaurs, completely out of touch with what is happening in Scotland.

  102. seanair says:

    Re Scottish Journalists, apologies if the following has been posted already.
    Torcuil Crichton in the Record today, in his article about AS staying on after the referendum, says that AS will use the BBC as a scapegoat if the vote is No.
    TC however opines that “The BBC, scrupulously, boringly unbiased, is an easy patsy”!!!
    Honest I’m not kidding.

  103. muttley79 says:


    You have to allow for the fact that Poor Old John McTernan is on record as saying that there would be no referendum on independence on the night of the SNP’s landslide election of May 2011. I can remember Iain McWhirter having a go at him for this (I have a freakish memory).

    FAO Mainstream media in Scotland/UK

    Devo-Max means Holyrood having control over all the oil revenues in Scottish waters (as we would be in charge of our budget), it means control over all of income tax, capital gains tax, corporation tax, alcohol tax etc (apart from VAT I think), all welfare powers, all energy powers, all transport powers. The only thing that it excludes is defence/foreign affairs, including matters of war and peace and Trident (which are naturally very important). We would pay a contribution towards the costs of Defence and other things. That is what Devo-Max means, and it is completely different to what the No parties are offering. Stop lying, and trying to con the people of Scotland.

  104. heedtracker says:

    Local vote no frighteners today from ever further right Press and journal with, vote yes and lose your pension, vote yes and you’re disloyal to the the royals and a very weird huge BetterTogether/No Thanks thing from ConDem Carmichael with fozzie bear wafflng. on and on about how important devo for England really is, how he does not think he has any right to vote on English affairs. It’s clearly part of Scotland wide puff propaganda for the cross party devo scam from now on but fozzie says English devo has nothing to do with anyone but the English!

    Ok it’s dopey old P&J but still.

    Prof Peter Strachan and Prof Alex Russell of RGU warn that Westminster energy policy is heading for rolling blackouts for the UK, OAP’s and families can’t afford teamGB energy bills and England will have no choice but to buy Scottish green energy. All of this in P&J under headline, Families and 9AP’s face power cuts, at bottom corner of page but at least they printed something than vote no or you’re for it today.

  105. Robert Peffers says:

    @Les Wilson says: “On a brief lighter note, Greg Moodie has an amusing new cartoon, ”An Ordinary mum”.

    Oh! I know another, “Ordinary Mum”.

    Her name is Elizabeth and she lives, (most of the time), in a wee hoose at the foot of The Mall in the town of London.

    ‘Cept when she goes for a well earned bit of respite care to her wee butt & ben in the Scottish Highlands. She is always so busy looking after her wee family as she, and they, have such a hard time making ends meet.

  106. HandandShrimp says:


    I have vague memories of the “No referendum” thing. I also recall people saying that if there was one the Scottish Government wouldn’t get to run it, no 16/17 vote and the question would be framed by Westminster.

    In short, the forecasts were pants.

    I do agree that the Devo Minimum on offer is confused and I suspect unworkable. There is nothing to entice and we need to make that clear to people. They are selling snake oil.

  107. Cal says:

    O/T Just found this cached article from the 8th June 2014 (don’t know why it’s been cached) on a Chinese exhibition company’s website. Interesting reading.

  108. Luigi says:

    “if you vote no, trust us

    Oops, I think the unionist parties may have a problem there.

  109. Luigi says:

    Last year, a number of unionist politicians deliberately tried to cloud the water by stating that devo max has never been properly defined.

    Unfortunately for them, most people now understand exactly what devomax means, and that we are not getting it.

  110. Mike Hamilton says:

    O/T and poss. a bit long but please bear with me. First time post anywhere although long time lurker. I am hoping that this passes muster with the Rev re the formatting.

    I have been thinking about the possibility of a currency union and George Osbourne’s flat out refusal that such a thing will happen. I know, I should get out more. I initially thought that this was just bluff as the costs will be significant if it doesn’t happen. However, ManandBoy and FlimFlamMan both made recent posts which made me think.

    FlimFlamMan said that a country that issues it’s own currency can never default, I’m guessing the reason is that they will just print some more money and pay the bills with that instead. Hence one reason that the CU will not happen is Westminster will have to give up the control of currency (to the Bank of England) and leave itself open to default.

    Second post was from ManandBoy who raised the point of who ‘owns’ the debt. This is something that has bothered me for a while, the UK owes £1.4trillion but who to? The answer I think, is the banks, probably the very same ones we bailed out, the pension funds (i.e. us!) and other countries. We, the taxpayers, are currently paying £450million per day in interest, (that figure could be wildly out, I’m sure I read it somewhere recently) to these people just to service this debt. Kerrching, as they say. So it is not in George’s interest, or more specifically, those of his friends in the City, to pay back the debt and the key point is, they don’t have to. As an aside, since some of the debt is held by the BoE, which is owned by the Treasury, where does that interest money go?

    So there will be no CU just as George said, because it is not in his interest to do so. The situation has been engineered so that the debt can remain in perpetuity, as the UK can never default, and the tax payer will have to continue paying the interest to the banks, etc., for ever. Money for nothing.

    Does that sound possible or have I got some fundamental bit wrong? I defer to the experts here to clarify. Thanks.

  111. G H Graham says:

    Regrettably I’ve had to add Scottish Field to my banned list of newspapers, products & magazines; you know, the publishers & producers who are delighted to promote the Loch Ness Monster, wet weekend breaks in Oban & a discount on those ill fitting, tweed clothes you apparently need to wear when out & about discharging bullets into a mammal or a bird.

    Inexplicably, most of these organisations are delighted to maintain the idea that Scots are a unique nation of people; unable to govern themselves despite having world class scenery, world class products, renowned institutions & an envious list of natural resources that many countries are surely envious of; wild mountains, stunning beaches, sea fish stocks, whisky, leading universities, fine art galleries, fresh water, seasonal snow, coal, oil & gas, hydro, wind, etc.

    So it’s hardly surprising that the media chooses to assist the British government & its various assortment of dysfunctional London based political parties to attempt to fool Scots into believing that there are substantial, meaningful & useful additional powers coming if we vote NO.

    These parties can’t even agree on a daylight saving time zone so there’s no chance they will agree on a complicated package of tax raising & revenue spending powers.

    And they will spare themselves the effort of scrutinising the flimsy proposals because they are not interested in Scots getting any more substantial authority, responsibility & accountability.

    The media & the establishment like things just the way they are; London knows best, doff yer hats, know your place. It’s a bizarre but comfortable place to be for these people.

    Sure, its broken. Yes, its wholly unfair. But when you are looking down from the top of the mountain, those that will get avalanched on are always those at the bottom trying to climb up. And why throw down a safety rope? They don;t think there’s enough room at the top for everybody anyway.

    But these people are nervous all the same? Scots proposing independence are like a global warming trend. It’s there. It’s measurable but there isn’t a bloody thing you can do about it. One day all the snow at the top of the mountain will have melted away.

    And when that happens, expect a stampede as people start scrambling for a view from the top.

  112. Pity the sign wasn’t ‘press to delete’


  113. TheItalianJob says:

    muttley79 says:

    “You have to allow for the fact that Poor Old John McTernan is on record as saying that there would be no referendum on independence on the night of the SNP’s landslide election of May 2011.”

    This is spot and you can find him stating this here on this YouTube clip, on Newsnight Scotland on 06/05/2011.

  114. Nana Smith says:

    I’m sure I read somewhere today that Cameron is in Orkney.
    Now why would he be there unless he is out to cause trouble.

    The article below won’t open for some strange reason,& not for the first time.

    Orkney to discuss Scotland’s Future Wired-GOV (Press Release) 14

  115. Midgehunter says:

    Well Mr McTernan you won’t stop us with a constitution.

    This says what it’s about.

    Preparing a constitution is not merely a matter of placing words in a document – important though the words are – but of the Constitutional Convention process being Scotland’s best opportunity to express our values, reflect our journey to this place, articulate our aspirations for future generations, engage our citizens, renew our institutions and methods of governance, and reinvigorate our democracy and civic society.”

  116. Clootie says:

    Just seen McTernan’s idiotic comment.

    He must feel he still holds sway over a quarter of the world I.e. All post Empire nations (including the USA).

    I think New Labour must have experimented with some form of drug during their time in office. I’m serious – look at Blair yesterday, don’t tell me Darling’s blink rate is normal, Brown has delusional behaviour and now this grazy tweet.

    It appears that DevoMax is anything they chose and Independence doesn’t actually mean what it says on the tin.

    The have lived for so long in a fictional world of their own press releases that they consider themselves able to change reality by stating a different version.

    Do we mock or pity. I’ve gone for mock. It will be even more fun now because his ego will drive home to prove that he is correct! 😀

  117. Matt Seattle says:

    What is the point of ‘devo max’ if it means we keep trident and take part in illegal wars – ?

    Seems about the worst kind of halfway house imaginable.

  118. Clootie says:

    Grazy? Doh! Crazy – not auto correct – just mucked up!

  119. galamcennalath says:

    John McTernan’s comments on twitter:
    Pretty sure the constitution remains reserved whatever the result of the referendum.

    My understanding, for what it’s worth, is that Westminster will be required under the Edinburgh Agreement to pass legistlation to enable Independence.

    John McTernan may be correct, ask a constitutional lawyer!

    It all depends on whether you believe rUK & Westminister will stick to the Edinburgh Agreement. After a Yes they will be expected to pass, without hurdles, all necessary legislation swiftly, I assume.

    You will note Salmond, Sturgeon and others frequently remind everyone of their obligations under said agreement.

  120. Edward says:

    Nana Smith

    You mean this link for ‘Orkney to discuss Scotland’s Future’

  121. Nana Smith says:


    Thanks for that. Can’t think where I read about Cameron being in Orkney.

  122. MajorBloodnok says:

    The Edinburgh Agreement (2012) says that:

    “The governments are agreed that the referendum should:
    • have a clear legal base;
    • be legislated for by the Scottish Parliament;
    • be conducted so as to command the confidence of parliaments, governments and
    people; and
    • deliver a fair test and a decisive expression of the views of people in Scotland and a
    result that everyone will respect.

    I think that just about covers it and I don’t see much wiggle room for the potentially perfidious UK government there.

  123. MajorBloodnok says:

    I see that the Unionist parties have pledged more powers if there’s a no vote.

    I won’t believe it though unless they are all photographed holding big bits of cardboard with those words and their signatures on it, especially the LibDems…er…

    Check out the photo of the Scottish parliament – nice blurring effect round the edges, like it’s just a miniaturized version, or merely a toy…

  124. donald anderson says:

    Three Stooges.

    Bams United

  125. Viking Girl says:

    Did I see J K Rowling in the photograph?

  126. Black Douglas says:


    It’s just the same Devo Nano that the three parties had offered previously. I was expecting some seriously major bribes at least to be put on the revolving sushi table.

    Especially by the Lib Dems as they are the past masters at that sort of thing!

  127. Morag says:

    Ooh, Stu fixed Molly’s paragraph breaks instead of deleting the post with extreme prejudice. He must have liked it a lot.

  128. Liquid Lenny says:

    G H Graham

    Scottish Field – Oban Times group, same mob that publish the Arran Banner, wont run any YES Stories but were falling over themselves to report on 4 BT’s Activists coming off the boat to leaflet a very small part of the island. The Banner reporter met them at the boat and had nervously hung around for about 20 minutes waiting for them.

    Don’t ask me how I know 🙂

  129. desimond says:

    Devo Max, its the equivalent of staying “F*ck Buddys” after you split up.

    You might claim its an ideal set up but deep down you both know its going nowhere and ultimately doomed to end in tears.

  130. galamcennalath says:

    Devo Hee Haw. Don’t they realise they’ve missed bus, most Scots have moved on.

    If they believe so much in devolution, why didn’t they put a lot more into Calman? Well, we know the answer. They never want to offer any more that the feel they need to. And, a few years ago, they thought they didn’t need to offer much.

    I am fairly certain it’s all too little too late. Don’t they realise they’ve missed bus? Now, most Scots have moved on. Yes will win.

  131. SquareHaggis says:

    When will the zip factory be opening?
    The back o ma heid is lettin a cauld win through…

  132. SquareHaggis says:


  133. Democracy Reborn says:

    @desimond 4.15pm

    Brilliant. PML.

  134. TYRAN says:

    All suddenly clambering like mad to be seen to be offering more powers. Nappies fu again, lads?

    Westminster couldn’t even devolve Air Passenger Duty, as recommended by Calman.

  135. Nation Libre says:

    I think with this, em, “promise” from the Union we should maybe start using their campaign names like, No Thanks Better Together, or even better, Better Together, No Thanks. Are they really that stupid that they can’t see how those two campaign names could be used together by the Yes Team

  136. Ken500 says:

    What they want is too take the bulk of Scottish taxes to Westminster to waste them on their crap projects, in order to increase their tax evaded personal wealth. Then for the Scottish Gov to have to out up taxes in Scotland to compensation for the shortfall they have created. i.e. Tax Scotland twice. They are already taxing the Oil industry at 80%, while (foreign) major multinational companies are tax evading through the City of London. Different tax Laws in each country, while under the Union both countries were supposed to be treated equally.

    Don’t let them do it. Vote YES.

  137. Ken500 says:

    Pensioners pay tax

  138. Ken500 says:

    Who elected McTernan? Must have missed that.

  139. CameronB Brodie says:

    Re. the HMG Better Together representation of a future Scotland’s shrinking tax base and decrepit workforce. 😀

    Independence would bring about fundamental change within the macro-economic framework of these isles (iScotland + rUK). Just in time, IMO, to provide a counterbalance to the structural boost the midlands will gain from HS2.

    Independence will shift the balance of factors that shape the economy and the spatial distribution of social capital AND DEMOGRAPHICS. With Scotland’s vast wealth and the correct policy frameworks, I see know reason Scotland should not retain it’s indigenous talent, at the very least.

    Leeches are quackery.

  140. Grouse Beater says:

    GH Graham said: Regrettably I’ve had to add Scottish Field to my banned list.

    The preferred reading matter of Posh Jocks.

  141. Paula Rose says:

    @ Nation Libre (5:21) – Better No Together Thanks!

  142. G H Graham says:

    Liquid Lenny,

    The editorial content of “Scottish Field” is very, er, well, “British”. It fawns over royalty, consistently attempts to emulate one of those pompous London society magazines & thus reads like it is stuck in a Conservative 1950’s Scotland.

    It’s read by what I would call a bizarre, subculture; a worsted & tweed clothed minority who consider killing animals on a mono-culture, treeless, moorland landscape, an enjoyment while out walking the dog.

    Homeward bound in a dark coloured Range Rover no less, this chattering class attempts to raise the academic tone by moaning about the impact of global warming & the deforestation of Brazil.

    These are some of the people to whom the idea of Scottish independence sounds worse than having their kids beheaded by the Taliban. They are not for listening & certainly not for turning. And nowadays, they might well be also supporters of the Labour Party for all the spiritual difference it makes anymore.

    My travels across Scandinavia revealed a quite different relationship with their landscape & their culture; all to be revered, protected & nourished.

    I hope Scottish independence heralds the beginning of a new relationship with our own landscape, resources & culture. An acceleration of right to buy & the reforestation of large empty upland bogs would be a good start. Banning all blood sports would be another.

    The more I study British history, society & culture, the more I struggle to feel a single shred of pride in any of it anymore.

  143. Rock says:

    Mike Hamilton,

    I am no expert on this, but if there is no currency union, Scotland inherits a ZERO share of the national debt. Alex Salmond and the SNP are on the record for insisting on that.

    The UK national debt is not Scotland’s responsibility. The UK has already been forced by the forces that be to guarantee 100% of it in the event of Scotland becoming independent.

    I have come to the conclusion that it would be in Scotland’s best interests to have no currency union and no share of the national debt. Let rUK remain in their bubble of perpetual debt.

    Even without a currency union, no one can stop us from using sterling as long as we want to.

    My view is that within a very short time our economy would be much stronger than the rUK economy and we would need our own currency anyway.

  144. mr thms says:

    About currency. I came across this interesting article..

    It is as if whatever problem you think of, the solution has been put in place…

    It can only mean one thing… Independence

  145. Mike Hamilton says:


    You are right but the basic premise still stands though, yes? If the vote is No George Osbourne will have the UK by the short and curlies for ever.

    Yet another reason to vote YES, as if one was needed. Let RUK pay off the bankers on their own.

    I have come to the same conclusion as you, no CU and lets move to our own currency as soon as possible.

  146. kev murray says:

    I wonder do you think the Chinese delegation visiting No#10 asked if Scotland might consider using the Yuan Renminbi?

  147. Derek M says:

    @ Rock i am also for our own currency however i also think a currency union is the right thing to do at first ,my main reason is because the last thing we need is our neighbors down south to go bust ,dont get me wrong its very tempting after all the lies they have used to let them fall flat on their face, but this would also have a massive affect on our own economy ,the difference will be that this time we will hold the power they will not,this is why they are crapping themselves and offering jam tomorrow and more jam to come because the people of the rUK will at some point realize what you and i and everybody who will vote yes does and that is they have been lied to in thinking Scotland is a subsidy junkie when the truth is actually the other way around.

  148. Molly says:

    Sorry Rev (and everyone trying to read my earlier post) and Thank you for sorting out the formatting. When I saw it up, I realise why you need the double clicks – Thanks

  149. CameronB Brodie says:

    Derek M
    I’ve heard a Scots currency straight away, might prove too ‘stiff’ to support growth. Ooh er missus. 😉

  150. Michael McCabe says:

    The Bookmakers are not giving odds on a currency union. Why not. because they believe there will be one. and there is no money to be made. Westminster will change there mind on a currency union by the middle of July.

  151. Derek M says:

    lol not at all CameronB we could cut them off like the giant pile they are but since we do lots of trading with them it makes good business sense to keep them afloat, unfortunately its in Scotland`s best interest to do so ,thats why we have went from no CU to yes there will be a CU from westminster as the polls narrow, they know it as well just didnt want to admit it 😉

  152. Rock says:

    Mike Hamilton,

    Heavens forbid, but if the vote is No, Westminster will enforce a scorched earth policy on Scotland. The food banks now will look like relatively good times in a few years’ time.

    I believe that democratically there will be a Yes vote but the British Establisment will rig the result.

  153. yabadabadoo says:

    Mike Hamilton

    SNP want a YESVOTE. The next day they want the Scottish people made debt slaves by taking on UK debt used for illegal wars and bailing out casino banks (£7000 for every child and adult in Scotland).

    Getting rid of UK debt is worth twice the North Sea Oil to the Scottish economy. Thats right 200 percent of all the oil left.

    The main point about issuing a Scottish Currency is that you break from the control of the British Empire Bank of England and are then able to issue SCOTTISH TREASURY NOTES at 0% interest.

    We need to establish the First National Bank of Scotland giving out lots of cheap credit to the Physical Economy which would support AS’s vision for a manufacturing revolution 2.0

    That’s right, the SNP will not tell you that. No country has to go to private banks to get money. Every country has the right to issue its own money at 0% interest. If the UK had done this all taxes in UK could be cut by 30% tomorrow.

    Here is a quote from one of the most famous bankers in the world:

    “Give me control of a nation’s money and I care not who makes it’s laws” — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild


    The bankers dont care what happens at the Scottish Parliament as long as it does not get in the way of keeping the Scottish people as perpetual debt slaves.

    rUK will not go bust if it passes a Glass-Steagall ACT as the USA did in 1933. This would immediately separate out fictional speculation debt from the real world financial system. This Glass-Steagall ACT (Bill now introduced again into USA Senate and House presently)would finish all the fake casino banks and institutions probably over a weekend. And who would miss them?


  154. CameronB Brodie says:

    Did we not go over exactly the same ground yesterday? Would it not be sensible to gain independence before planning on what to do with it? Does a journey not start with the first step?

  155. Rock says:

    Derek M,

    “Rock i am also for our own currency however i also think a currency union is the right thing to do at first ,my main reason is because the last thing we need is our neighbors down south to go bust.”

    Alex Salmond has said numerous times that it would be in the interests of both countries to have a currency union and I accept that as a fair and reasonable position.

    But what can we do if our neighbour’s ‘leaders’ are hell bent on opposing everything the SNP proposes?

    It will have no effect on our economy – we will continue to use sterling as long as it suits us and no one can stop us from doing that.

    The vested interests will continue lying until 18th September, but after a Yes vote, they will either be forced to come to their senses or see rUK reduced to junk status by their continued arrogance. But it will be entirely their own fault, not ours.

  156. Rock says:


    Someone asked you if you were a Green supporter by any chance. A simple question. Did you answer that?

  157. manandboy says:

    yabadabadoo says:
    17 June, 2014 at 12:16 am
    Mike Hamilton

    SNP want a YESVOTE. The next day they want the Scottish people made debt slaves by taking on UK debt used for illegal wars and bailing out casino banks (£7000 for every child and adult in Scotland).

    Getting rid of UK debt is worth twice the North Sea Oil to the Scottish economy. Thats right 200 percent of all the oil left.

    That is simply not true.

    Please reference your sources for the evidence for what you claim.


  158. manandboy says:

    Scotland 2014 Mon night highlighted the currency union with Ireland after Irish Independence. As the guy in the film said ‘it was a no brainer’. The parallel with Scotland was screaming off the screen.

    Andrew Hosie then spoke with Sarah Smith and he was very good.

    Alistair Carmichael made a fool of himself in his feeble attempt to rubbish the possibility of a currency union with Scotland.

  159. yabadabadoo says:


    Can you reference where the SNP guarantee to take on no UK debt as per the UN Charter ? why are the SNP proposing to breach normal international convention/ law for newly established states?

    The whole of the UK economy is presently based on debt: the government, local government, every business, every person, even students (not Scotland thank goodness). The UK government is running around telling us the economy is improving. Its not. All it is is the ripple effect of all the new debt people are wading into, mostly in London, for property. The British Empire Banking system is designed to keep people in debt servitude from birth to grave.

    The SNP, with its stated proposal to keep the parasitical Bank of England and it imperial monetary debt system is advocating this for the Scottish people. This does not reconcile with the stated position of AS to protect the commonweal.



    Absolutely not a green supporter. Will go into that sometime.

  160. Derek M says:

    @ Rock once a yes vote happens and we are independent the balance of power will shift and i expect westminster to huff and puff, moan and groan but thats when we wield our big stick called power ,they need us more than we need them and the threat of us taking oil revenue out of the pound into our own currency will have them all sitting politely at the negotiation table 😉

  161. Derek M says:

    mate you need to stop reading westminster propaganda it will make you not well lol

    Ok lets talk about debt to start with our share is nothing really compared to our resources ,but if thats not enough how about the gold deposits once we get our hands on the books we will see they have been cooking them and running a massive fraud with a paper gold ponzy scheme ,they dont have enough physical gold to cover our share never mind anybody else`s so we take that off the debt,then there is all the other assets which we will have a share off ,now some of these wont be able to be split so a cash compromise will have to be settled take that of the debt, so do you now see what the SNP are planning and why bitter together no thanks have got the jam pot out.

  162. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’ve heard it rumored there might possibly be a democracy in iScotland, where sovereignty will rest with the people. I’ve also heard this will be underpinned by a constitution, hopefully aspirational. The kind of constitution written in ink on paper, mind, not one made up on the hoof, to benefit the interests of the Crown and/or City.

    First things first. Naw?

  163. CameronB Brodie says:

    This is what I call real Project Fear. We need to get this done in September, while we still can.

  164. donald anderson says:

    Former UK. FUK.

  165. Ken500 says:

    Scottish Gov would tax, spend differently. No tax evasion. A fair and equal, progressive tax system. Different spending. More equal, fair society.

    Eg No Trident, redundant weaponry or illegal wars. Saving £1.5Billion. Forces based in Scotland approx £2.5Billion will mean the economic benefits accruing to the Scottish economy. Investment in Renewables £Billion Grants from EU. Chinese investment in Renewables £2Billion. Scotland lost out on the opportunity of EU and Chinese investment because of Westminster decision. No CC Project at Longannet in Fife because of Wedtminster (Hulne) refusal.

    A tax on cheap ‘loss leading’ cheap alcohol would save £1.5Billion.

    Putting up the driving age from 17 would save lives and public monies. 17 – 20 year old – less than 10% of drivers are involved in more than 25% of accidents.

    Better childcare and more women working would generate income.

    A fairer distribution of wealth would improve health/well being, take away stress and give pensioners, low paid, vulnerable people etc better incomes and everyone a longer and better happier life.

    Vote YES.

  166. donald anderson says:

    Also for the so called “Union”. BNP;NF,LOL, Celtic Labour Board, UKIP, EBC, BT, CPB, CPGB and HMQ.

  167. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry, but I’m at a loss as to what you are hoping to achieve by posting partisan and misleading commendatory. Perhaps I’m naive?

  168. Rock says:


    The referendum is about independence, not about the SNP.

    But as you seem to be more anti-SNP than Johann Lamont, GIVEN the SNP’s position on currency/debt, are you voting YES or NO?

    ‘Duggie’ didn’t answer that question, but as obviously you are not ‘Duggie’, I trust you will answer it.

  169. Paula Rose says:

    I’m feeling peckish – is that a wee hairy thing?

  170. yabadabadoo says:

    CameronB Brodie

    “Sorry, but I’m at a loss as to what you are hoping to achieve by posting partisan and misleading commendatory. Perhaps I’m naive?”

    Well you said it.

    For the record I was trying to helping manandboy who was having problems using google and demanded reference to sources for my post.

    Good to know WOS contributors welcome free speech. Or is only free speech that fits into your world view allowed?

    Your suggestion that:

    “Would it not be sensible to gain independence before planning on what to do with it? Does a journey not start with the first step?”

    These comments are really ridiculous. The SNP just spent from memory, £1.5 million of our money, on the most detailed plan of what they would do after a YES vote. Why should politicians be allowed to plan (using our money)for after a Yes Vote but not the people of Scotland?

    Sorry but you are not making much sense.

    I want the people to be sovereign not sheep. For that to happen people need to think and form a view, of what Scotland should look like starting from the 19th Sept.

    Your comment that there will be democracy in an Independent Scotland, with its implied -everything will therefore be okay- is naive: as you seem to think that this is enough. Just ask the population of Greece being systematically stripped of their social programmes and pensions. Try selling the democracy-protects-you line to the 50% youth unemployment in Spain. Or closer to home try telling the casino British Empire Banks induced austerity fest victims that democracy protects them.

    Democracy is not enough on its own.

    However you have hit the bulls eye with referencing the written constitution as central to protecting the nation.

    The is a central pillar of a Successful Scotland.

    The SNP politicians have had their version in their back pocket for years. However they are consulting right now an what should be in it:

    Its time that the sovereign people thought about the issue and instruct the public servants in Edinburgh what should be in it.

    My understanding is that the SNP are wanting to have the Queen as head of state WRITTEN into the Constitution.

    The present powers of the Queen includes the following.

    1.She has the absolute power to declare war.
    2.She has the absolute power to appoint all of the military commanders of all of the British military and intelligence services.
    3. She has the authority to dissolve parliament at any time she wishes, without explanation.
    4.She has the authority to dismiss and replace a prime minister at her whim.
    5. All judges are appointed by the Crown.
    All of the archbishops of the Church of England are appointed by the Crown.
    6. The Crown has the absolute authority to conclude all treaties; and finally,
    7.Only the Queen has the authority to issue pardons.


  171. CameronB Brodie says:


    These comments are really ridiculous. The SNP just spent from memory, £1.5 million of our money, on the most detailed plan of what they would do after a YES vote. Why should politicians be allowed to plan (using our money)for after a Yes Vote but not the people of Scotland?

    How long would you say it will be until it is the future? Will the White Paper’s proposals cover us until then? Of course they won’t.

    I want the people to be sovereign not sheep. For that to happen people need to think and form a view, of what Scotland should look like starting from the 19th Sept.

    What’s your rush man/woman? I bet you were murder on December 24.

    Yadda-yadda, yadda-yadda, quack, quack, Try selling the democracy-protects-you line to the 50% youth unemployment in Spain.

    Regaining Scotland’s self-determination, thereby ending a rather long-lasting empire, isn’t enough for you? Just how would you suggest Scotland should approach changing a global financial system that has undeniably been overtaken by criminal elements? Should we just take our ball away? Btw, do you have a link to the story about Betty?

    Sorry if I’m a bit sarky and thank you for answering my previous questions.

  172. CameronB Brodie says:

    Re-reading the above, I should perhaps clarify I meant the White Paper will not be expected to shape Scotland, until the end of time. That will be up to us and our children, our ambitions and our determination. Just my opinion.

    P.S. I don’t think Pele would have been such a champion, if he hadn’t kept his eye on the ball.

  173. wax says:

    Why are they all standing in front of a giant sanitary towel?

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