stooges of the Kremlin

Wings Over Scotland


Logic fail

Posted on July 10, 2013 by

We meant to mention this in yesterday’s post about the Future Of England Survey, but it was so hot the part of our brain holding the thought got incinerated when we foolishly went to the corner shop to buy some milk without an asbestos hat on.

resentment

52% of the good people of England believe Scotland gets “more than its fair share” of UK public spending, with only 19% thinking the distribution of cash was “pretty much fair”. Almost as many (49%) think Scotland benefits the most financially from the Union, compared to just 23% who say both nations do equally well and therefore, at most, 28% who think England gets the best deal.

(Oddly, the survey doesn’t actually put a figure to the latter.)

81%, meanwhile, think Scottish MPs should butt out of parliamentary matters that only affect England and Wales (although this neglects to consider the knock-on effect on the Barnett formula, which can impinge on devolved matters).

Why, then, do only 30% of them support Scottish independence?

foesindy

After all, the unfortunately-acronymed FOES finds that English people clearly (though entirely wrongly) believe they’re subsidising Scotland, and getting only unwanted interference with English affairs in return. Scottish independence would solve that problem. So why is it opposed by almost half and backed by less than a third?

There’s only one rational explanation possible from the data – that English people believe that the future of the Union is one where the supposed imbalance is going to be corrected. And since they believe that imbalance is currently in Scotland’s favour, that means a “correction” which is to Scotland’s disadvantage.

It’s plain that a Scotland which has just voted No will have no bargaining power in Westminster in any negotiation over more powers or spending. What, after all, could it threaten if it didn’t get a better deal? Another referendum, after Alex Salmond’s “once in a generation” pledge? What would be the SNP’s chances of repeating the miracle of 2011 and getting another Holyrood majority anyway?

In the 2015 general election, none of the UK parties will have much interest in Scottish votes. Labour will assume it has most of them in the bag as usual, the Tories won’t be expecting any anyway, and the Lib Dems will be lucky to hang on to what they have. All three will be frantically focusing instead on the people polled in the FOES survey – the English – and those people will not be won over by promises of more pandering to the ungrateful Jocks.  The opposite is much more likely to be true.

We’re sorry to go on about it. We know that the vast majority of you reading here know it already. But the future of Scotland’s relationship with the UK after a No vote is not a rosy one of more powers, more money or more autonomy.

The success or failure of the Yes campaign will hinge entirely on whether that message is brought home to the Scottish people.

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    91 to “Logic fail”

    1. Willie Zwigerland says:

      Alternative explanation – people ain’t rational and are biased against change.

    2. Memphisto says:

      Or maybe it is their little Empire mentality so they can have someone to look down upon

    3. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “people ain’t rational”

      That would certainly explain a lot of polling.

    4. John Lyons says:

      People can be presented with facts AND believe them and then simply ignore it all and follow the line of whatever party they vote for. Some of these people will be tories, they will believe Scotland gets more than it deserves and they will believe England will be better off without Scotland, but David Cameron wants them (The Jocks) to stay, so they’re against independence.
       
      And you can Substitue Tories for Labour (Why not, everyone else does!) and Cameron for Milliband and it’s still true.
       
      It’s like the Labour voter in Glasgow who has the lowest Life expectancy in Europe and is still planning to vote against change.

    5. John Lyons says:

      Big al, That’s a load of Nonsense. English MPs already have the ability to Veto EVERYTHING! by dint of the fact they outnumber everyone else 10 – 1. They did a pretty good job of Vetoing Scotlands opposition to the Bedroom tax without these additional powers!
       
      (Wait, additional powers? do they need a devolved parliament?)

    6. I think that, more likely, its just that those polled think ‘Scotland may get more than its fair share at the moment, but that’s not enough of a reason to break up Britain’.
       
      Just the same as the fact that there are some things about the EU that I don’t like, but I still want an independent Scotland to be part of it.

    7. Andy-B says:

      The majority of Scots seem to be apathetic, towards this referendum, the YES camp really need to be more pro-active, the sooner the better.

    8. Training Day says:

      Also had recent experience of another factor:  the paternalistic, ‘why would you want to leave us when we’ve been so good to you by paying for your prescriptions and education’ attitude.  This came from relatives in Ipswich, one English and one a Scot who’s lived there for 40 years, both singing the same tune.
       
      It wasn’t pretty.

    9. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “And you can Substitue Tories for Labour (Why not, everyone else does!)”

      Try the fish!

      😀

    10. Gordon Bain says:

      The future after a No vote looks bleak indeed.

    11. a supporter says:

      Rev Stu
      “There’s only one rational explanation possible from the data – that English people believe that the future of the Union is one where the supposed imbalance is going to be corrected. And since they believe that imbalance is currently in Scotland’s favour, that means a “correction” which is to Scotland’s disadvantage.”

      I don’t think that is true. It is my view that many English sincerely believe in their hearts that the UK as an entity that is worthwhile despite its faults and regardless of who gets the best deal out of it. And unfortunately, if you are an Independence supporter, many in Scotland feel the same.

      What is depressing for me is that a large percentage of the English still think that Scots are subsidised by them in spite of the overwhelming evidence that that is not the case. I suppose the reason is that Scottish Independence is not a main stream topic in the English media published in England. Independence and other Scottish affairs are seldom commented upon except on the Internet editions, and then only in special “Scottish sub sections” with separate “Scottish” Editors.

      Independence news and comment is not front page political news in England like it is in Scotland. And most of the top commentators and analysts there still dismiss the idea that oil contributions, and others, to the UK economy come from Scotland. They believe that the oil is the UK’s and not Scotland’s and it is reported in that manner.

      I think that will change when the White Paper on Independence is produced by the Scottish Government and as the Referendum date approaches. But who knows? I lived in SE England at the time of the Devolution Referendum and there was very little comment then either in the media or by your ordinary English person in the street or workplace. To them it was a non-event.

    12. Desimond says:

      England to only vote on English matters?, that will never work! How could Labour ever get someone selected for Falkirk!

    13. HandandShrimp says:

      An interesting and pretty lengthy report. Bognador picked up on it in the Guardian reagrding a piece on Englishness but it seemed to slide under the radar of the regulars.
       
      Can’t get my head around the 30% figure given their returns on other questions.

    14. Michael Granados says:

      Rev,
      See this story… “British public wrong about nearly everything, survey shows”
      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-8697821.html

    15. Luigi says:

      The logic fail is because they simply do not accept Scottish independence to be the solution to “the problem”. They want a solution that won’t hurt them. They would much rather the scots start behaving like nice little north Britishers again, and just keep that oil flowing, there’s a good laddie!
      Have your cake and eat it? 

    16. Jiggsbro says:

      There’s only one rational explanation possible from the data
       
      There’s at least one other rational explanation: that many English people are willing to trade ‘subsidised Scots interfering in their affairs’ because the alternative is to break up a 300 year-old Union. Never underestimate the power of sentiment.

    17. Brian Ritchie says:

      “What, after all, could it threaten if it didn’t get a better deal? Another referendum, after Alex Salmond’s “once in a generation” pledge? What would be the SNP’s chances of repeating the miracle of 2011 and getting another Holyrood majority anyway?”

      Pretty good I would have thought, because if by any chance it is a narrow NO, I simply cannot see voters flocking back to Labour; the SNP would be re-elected at Holyrood and possibly at Westminster too, as they will be seen as the only party fit to negotiate on behalf of Scotland.  If nothing is delivered by way of greater devo (which it won’t be) then sooner or later a vote for the SNP becomes a vote for independence anyway; they could even include it in their manifesto.
       

    18. Atypical_Scot says:

      With FOES like these, who needs real enemies?
       
      Got to be compiled by the Daily Mail / Express. One can read a sinister Dark Lord of the Sith aspect into it, but as is routinely the case the rags dish out counter-intuitive hypocrisy a line a minute. 
      For example – oil revenues – the average yearly income divided by the Scots population of 5.25 million is a lot more than if distributed across the UK. My London friends read the articles with quotes such as Scottish oil revenues saved the UK many years over – something quoted by pro independent reporters – which in turn is digested by English readers as Scottish oil revenues are as important to Britain as they are to Scotland. 
      The MSM’s attempts to rationalise the Scottish positive case for independence is the Project Fear for our Southerly brothers and sisters. 

    19. pa_broon74 says:

      I think the figures are as they are because people in England don’t see Scotland as a country in and of itself. They see GB as one entity and by default equate England to GB.
       
      I’ve had the same conversation on forums with English folk (and others living in England long term,) they just don’t understand or see Scotland is a country with its own laws, system of education and NHS etc. We see Scotland becoming an independent country, they see it as a part of their own country breaking away and they’d no more vote for Cornwall or Norwich to leave the UK than Scotland regardless of any financial settlement (real or imagined.)
       
      Is what I think innit.

    20. pa_broon74 says:

      (In fact, you could almost dress it up as a positive case for the union – I mean its massively patronising and underpins the TWTPTS thing – but they actually care in a weird paternal fashion about Scotland remaining within the union. I mean they’d see it as positive, we might think of it differently.
       
      This I think is why so many in England are insulted by the notion of Scottish nationalism – we’re throwing their paternalism right back in their faces, or so they believe.) 

    21. scottish_skier says:

      Well that’s the stamps thing fecked.

      Cable confirms Royal Mail flotation

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23249466

    22. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Never underestimate the power of sentiment.”

      Hence “only one RATIONAL explanation”.

    23. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Pretty good I would have thought, because if by any chance it is a narrow NO, I simply cannot see voters flocking back to Labour; the SNP would be re-elected at Holyrood and possibly at Westminster too, as they will be seen as the only party fit to negotiate on behalf of Scotland.”

      I didn’t say the SNP wouldn’t be elected again, I said it’d be hard for them to get a majority. There’s a valid argument that says people would vote for them to try to force through enhanced devolution, but I think the flaw in it is that Scotland has, by general consent, a pretty clued-up electorate.

      They elect Labour to Westminster not because they think Labour are great (or they’d elect them to Holyrood too), but because they believe – quite rightly, in my view – that even 59 SNP MPs out of 59 would be able to achieve very little in a parliament with about 550 English MPs.

      (Where I differ from them is the notion that Labour are more useful as an opposition, because they aren’t one.)

      I don’t think the SNP would implode after a No vote, but it would be bound to be damaged to SOME extent as party factions throw blame around, and if Salmond – who is still a very major personal asset – decided to quit as well, it’s hard to see them getting a Holyrood majority. Never forget or underestimate just how extraordinary and spectacular a result that was.

      tl;dr version – no matter who Scotland elected in 2015 after a No vote, they’d have bugger-all chance of forcing enhanced devolution.

    24. Doug Daniel says:

      Michael Granados – presumably other stories include “Bear Defecates In Woodland Area” and “Pope Revealed To Be Of Catholic Persuasion”?

    25. Jiggsbro says:

      Hence “only one RATIONAL explanation”.
       
      The sentiment may be irrational, but having it provides a rational explanation for the opinion.

    26. If the situation was reversed I would have no problem with England going for independence, I would genially wish them all the best, no name calling, no nastiness and no racism, it amazes me that a majority of English people don’t see it that way whether they think they subsidise us or not..
       
      Maybe these people need educated that Scotland is a country in a political union and not a part of England.  

    27. Brian Ritchie says:

      “Never forget or underestimate just how extraordinary and spectacular a result that was.”

      Of course, but neither do I think it was a one off; I think it was the maturing of a trend, and difficult though it might be to get a majority (or a majority of independence parties + independents) it’s certainly not beyond the bounds of possibility given the SNP’s continued dominance in the polls. Neither am I so sure about Scotland re-electing Labour MP’s to Westminster; increasing numbers of people are seeing the truth that voting Labour in such circumstances is a waste of time; it is now crystal clear that they are the new red Tories.

    28. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Neither am I so sure about Scotland re-electing Labour MP’s to Westminster; increasing numbers of people are seeing the truth that voting Labour in such circumstances is a waste of time; it is now crystal clear that they are the new red Tories.”

      I do think we’re getting close to a First-Past-The-Post tipping point in that sense, but I don’t think we’re there yet. It may take another Labour defeat and five more years of abandoning whatever principles they might still have left. This unions thing is completely bewildering.

    29. tartanarse says:

      The English have all been brought up with the same MSM as us Scots.
       
      You know the one that tells us they subsidize us and that Scots are dumb.
       
      Unfortunately the majority of Scots and English beleived the MSM.
       
      Now thanks to the internet, things are beginning to change. Thanks to the decent people getting SNP in, they have had a chance to show that they can govern effectively. There is absolutely no competitiion in Scotland. The other parties have already told us that there is austrity forever.
       

    30. Doug Daniel says:

      Buster – the problem is a lot of people view Scottish independence as being a rejection of England, hence the sort of “yeah, well we never liked you anyway” type reaction in some quarters. It simply doesn’t occur to these people that Scottish independence is about Scotland making the positive decision to run its own affairs.

    31. SCED300 says:

      One would expect all the Labour MPs from Scotland, and all the Labour MSPs, to see the danger for their constituents.
      Seems the fog of hate for the SG blinds them to their responsibilities, or maybe a fear of loss of their little bit of power.

    32. Vronsky says:

      “I don’t think the SNP would implode after a No vote”
       
      I’ve been with the SNP a long time, and endured failure after failure after failure.  The next failure is no more interesting than the last, and just as boring as the one after that.  However I, and very many friends, will remain in the trenches.  The only thing likely to ‘implode’ the SNP is a ‘yes’ vote in the referendum. A ‘no’ ensures that we continue.

      We are awful.  But we only have to be lucky once.  

    33. HandandShrimp says:

      I got 8 out of 10 on that British public wrong on everything
       
      Yes voters = informed 😉

    34. seoc says:

       “they’d no more vote for Cornwall or Norwich to leave the UK”
      I wouldn’t bet on that one. Cornish folk do not all regard themselves as English.
      There is only an English demand for more, except when it comes to WMD dumped in our fair land and paid for by us.
      Neither was there a demand for more when yet another of their incessant wars were resulting in a disproportionate casualty ratio, or when THEIR military were deploying OUR young men.
      We’ve been getting fobbed of with insincere promises for yonks, demonstrating that only fools would trust them in anything they promise.

      They are upfront in ceremonial occasions traipsing around London in pretendy uniforms, blowing bugles.
      Independence is the only cure for them.

    35. James Morton says:

      Its always been something that genuinely stumps me. If it were true that England paid for Scotlands way, then surely the Union has failed having reduced one nation to dependency on handouts. If its true then what do the English get out of this? One swivel eyed bampot UKIPer I argued with stated that England got our resources, and we in Scotland got indoor toilets, otherwise we’d be a starving backward nation, and that is a FACT!. I’m more embarrassed at having attempted a debate with such a swivel eyed simpleton, but it underlines how deep this malaise goes.

      If it’s not true and Scotland more than pays its way and in fact has been subsidising the rUK from the 70’s onwards – then why not admit that. Why not base that as your positive case. You could see why they wouldn’t want it to end considering just how much we bring to the table. It would also be a much harder prospect for Salmond. But…the unionists decided to portray and continue to portray Scotland as a nation that has not advanced one inch in 300 years of Union. Labour have also adopted the message of the tories about Scotlands continued non-contribution to the UK. In truth the tories only did this to distract attention away from Scotlands rejection of them and their market driven politics.

      You could say they have being doing it so often its just become habit, and that the Lib dems do it, because they will do anything to keep their seat at the table. But its important to bear in mind how corrosive this is. 

      Ian Mcwhirter said on an earlier documentary of Thatcher, that when she came to Scotland for her infamous sermon on the mound, it was like an unstoppable force colliding with an unmovable object and you could hear the ties of union begin to strain and snap. That was then of course and it led to devolution and the reducing of the tories to an irrelevance. Bettertogethers Project fear is having a similar and damaging effect on the Union, not just here in Scotland, but also in England.

    36. Max says:

       
      An English parliament means a return to the pre-1707 political settlement. 

    37. naebd says:

      “Alternative explanation – people ain’t rational”
       
      Bingo. 
       
      There are other examples of this kind of thinking. For example, in the Arab world, this is relatively popular: “The Holocaust never happened, and anyway the Jews deserved it.

    38. kevybaby says:

      Slightly OT, but a wee potential brainwave I was having and interested in your thoughts (feel free to maul!).
      I think the size of the SNP compared to the other independence parties is the problem here. Theres almost an analogy on the ‘you see britain as england as its so much bigger than the other bits.’ You dont get a sense of the green or ssp version, or the yes campaign itself. I think the SNP should split back into 2 parties if a no vote happens and campaign with different versions of independence (pound vs bawbee, EU vs EFTA etc), that way you kind of have every base covered, you get 2 mainstream versions of indy, the salmond haters can vote for the other party, and it would be impossible for labour to muster the forces to hate THAT many people all at the same time. Would also mean direct attacks from the unionists are minimised as they cant attack 2 different POV at the same time.
      Thoughts?

    39. naebd says:

      Thoughts?
       
      That’s what I would call the Nightmare Scenario. That way doesn’t lie electoral success. Perhaps the left-end of the SNP could leave and join the Greens? However, I don’t know if this would result in the Greens getting more votes.

    40. Macart says:

      I’d say its not about facts or information, there’s plenty out there for people to make an informed decision on. Its about the message and which one you believe. Fear and lack of confidence or hopes and aspirations. BT have all the big guns on their side in terms of getting a message across. Jeez they even had the brass to call their strategy project fear and they don’t appear to have a problem spreading fear and uncertainty amongst their own electorate. Who does that? Who deliberately sets about trying to scare the shit out of their own people?
       
      Anyhoo, back to the point. As usual it comes down to avenues and attitudes. They have plenty of the former to effect as much change as they feel like on the latter. Were it down to facts and information, logic or simple bloody common sense we’d have it in the bag already. People do listen to the pundits, commentators, crits and party politicians. Rarely do they head online and do the research or crunch the numbers for themselves. They put their faith in those who deliver the daily blah or the local politico who helped them out with that ‘wee problem’. So if those folks say ‘independence, here be dragons’ that’s what they’ll believe, until they either get angry enough, disenchanted enough or hopeful enough to change their mind.

    41. Scaraben says:

      @Rev Stu
      “tl;dr version – no matter who Scotland elected in 2015 after a No vote, they’d have bugger-all chance of forcing enhanced devolution.”
       
      As a bit of wild speculation, what about the following hypothetical scenario? Scottish Labour loses a significant amount of its support. Following a very narrow ‘No’ vote in the referendum, a triumphant Westminster makes it clear that there will be no additional powers for the Scottish Parliament, and starts making moves to reduce its powers instead, possibly combined with hints that Scottish funding will be cut. Many people who voted ‘No’ realise that they have been duped and turn to the SNP. In the 2015 general election, the SNP win most of the Scottish seats, while in England and Wales UKIP take enough votes from the Tories to let Labour win nearly half the seats. Unless an unnatural coalition is formed (Labour + UKIP or even Tories + Labour), the SNP could hold the balance of power at Westminster.
       
      I am not suggesting this as a likely scenario, just that it would be very interesting indeed. Could it even result in the UK parties ganging up to kick Scotland out of the UK?
       
      Another question relates to the proposals to possibly restrict the right of Scottish MPs to vote on anything that is deemed not to affect Scotland. Obviously at the moment it is a vague idea, and much will depend on the details, but if Scottish MPs are reduced to some kind of second rate status at Westminster, might this possibly be a breach of the Treaty of Union? Anyway, for nearly 300 years was it not considered OK for English MPs to vote on purely Scottish matters?
       

    42. G H Graham says:

      It’s really simple; many English people reluctantly view Scotland as part of Britain ; a locally administered region, a northern province, a crown territory etc but definitely not a country in its own right.
      Hence, despite all the moaning about subsidies & ‘freebies’, a proposal by Scots to return Scotland to full sovereign independence makes no sense to English people while they remain stuck with the imperial mind set due to centuries of propaganda that a significant slice of Great Britain (socially, geographically & economically) would be carved away. From their perspective, Great Britain would be reduced, diminished, become less important, damaged etc.
      It is this stubborn, old world view of what Great Britain means to English people that prevents them from generally encouraging Scottish independence.
      And we see the output of this by the British Establishment’s attempt to minimise the significance of the Saltire, despite Cameron’s token political gesture after Wimbledon (an aberration in my view) using instead the Butcher’s Apron as a uniform of conformity which appeases the English since they confuse it with Englishness anyway.

    43. muttley79 says:

      @Doug Daniel
       
      the problem is a lot of people view Scottish independence as being a rejection of England, hence the sort of “yeah, well we never liked you anyway” type reaction in some quarters. It simply doesn’t occur to these people that Scottish independence is about Scotland making the positive decision to run its own affairs.
       
      Correct, and it ties in with the ‘paternalist’ attitude that Training Day mentioned.  Unfortunately, many Scots believe we could not survive as an independent nation, irrespective of our abundant natural resources.  Hopefully this is changing, but the conditioning that the MSM have participated in has definitely had an effect. 
       
      On another note, if the voting system changes and Scottish MPs are barred from voting on English domestic areas, will the penny finally drop in SLAB’s ranks that the Tories have well and truly shafted them?  Their M.P.s will be even less inactive than they already are….I can see the 2013-2014 session of the Scottish Parliament being extremely fiery!!
       

    44. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I got 8 out of 10 on that British public wrong on everything
      Yes voters = informed ;)”

      Me too – just 4 and 9 wrong. Who knew so many people had Twitter accounts?

      SEE HOW UNCOOL YOU ARE, TWITTER HATERS?

    45. Juteman says:

      I think some folk are being too optimistic about getting anothet chance if this one fails.
      The UK government will act swiftly to take away the power from Holyrood to ever again hold a referendum.
      The democratic door will be firmly closed.
      That’s when things could take a tragic turn.

    46. Jiggsbro says:

      Anyway, for nearly 300 years was it not considered OK for English MPs to vote on purely Scottish matters?
       
      Yes, but that only affected Scotland, so it didn’t matter. Only a minority of MPs or voters to complain about that.

    47. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I think some folk are being too optimistic about getting anothet chance if this one fails.
      The UK government will act swiftly to take away the power from Holyrood to ever again hold a referendum.”

      I agree. Some subtle or not-so-subtle measure will be put in place to ensure that no matter what Scots vote for, there will be no second independence referendum in our lifetime. This is it.

    48. Yesitis says:

      Rev Stu
      This is it.
       
      Agreed. If Scots vote No next year, then the only real threat we have (that we will vote Yes in an independence referendum) is removed. We will be a global laughing stock and Scotland will be ‘dismantled’
      There will be no escape clause. As you and Juteman have suggested – this is it.

    49. Braco says:

      Juteman and the Rev,
      I agree too.
       
      It depends on how subtle and long term they try and play it. If they decide on an engineered long and slow decline in authority for Holyrood then Scotland could be in real trouble.
       
      Thankfully, I just no longer believe that Westminster has the statecraft any longer, or the type of leadership that understands the true nature of the UK enough to even start to design such a long term strategy able to successfully return Scotland to a pre devolution UK settlement.
       
      Therefor it’s probably going to be as subtle as a brick, jingoistic lawmaking to ensure ‘our UK’ is never again be threatened by these ‘separatist radicals’.
       
      That being the case, I can see Independence coming really very quickly through landslide SNP victories in both Parliaments. This following from what the ‘NO electorate’ come to see as SLabour reneging on promises of further devolution as well as a general lack of respect for Scotland as a Country, by so crudely tying our hands against ever again deciding upon Independence by ourselves together as a Nation.
       
      In these circumstances a referendum will simply not be necessary. Sept 18th 2014 (and the subsequent folk memory of 1979) will have seriously devalued the concept.

      All worthless chat as there will be an overwhelming YES vote on September 18th 2014! bigsmile.

    50. Big Jock says:

      The yes vote to my mind is around 45%.Not the 33 constantly reported in the media.They deliberately take any don’t knows as No`s because it suits their agenda.In other words if they fool Scots who are not sure into thinking that it is a minority in favour.This will convince them to say no because most others are saying no and they don’t want to feel uncomfortable.This is beginning to unravel already.I actually believe that it’s neck and neck and the battle hasn’t even started.Come next year I predict 60% yes leading up to the vote.As for the vote I confidently think 70% yes is achievable.

    51. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

      I think it’s very basic. The English have about as much knowledge of planet Jupiter’s economy as Scotlands.  

    52. clochoderic says:

      There is a surprisingly large number of thoughtful comments BTL on this article in the Telegraph:       
      http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/philipjohnston/100225816/it-is-time-to-answer-the-english-question/
      The usual Cochrane trolls are notable for their absence and it is interesting to see how some people are beginning to grasp the possible implications of a Yes vote for the rest of the UK.

    53. Brian Ritchie says:

      @Braco
      Spot on IMHO. 🙂

    54. seoc says:

      Is it likely that we should choose to be free Scots – or be designated to become English people courtesy of the UK-ippers?

    55. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I’m with big Jock – if we play our cards right. 
      We have to convince the uniformed (that’s a PC euphemism, I’m not allowed to use the term “half wits”))that the clever people are voting yes and the daft are the NO supporters.
      A huge section of the voting public always follow the opinion formers.> That’s how elections are decided.  Mmany who are presently in the NO camp because they think that is the sensible place to be will very readily change sides if it appears to them that the smart guys are for YES.

    56. KraftyKris says:

      Regarding the MORI poll and the British public, all the answers were at the extreme end of the spectrum, none of the answers where the middle option. If everyone chose randomly then you would get 33% for each answer and the British public would average a considerable wrong answer every time. I think comparing the real numbers with these “average” answers that newspapers are quoting is extremely misleading.

    57. roboscot says:

      If Westminster some how prevents a future Scottish referendum on independence then the SNP can simply stand at each Westminster election on a single policy of independence. A majority of votes and/or seats would be a mandate for independence. The only way Westminster could stop that would be a law similar to that in Spain which makes campaigning for independence  for constituent nations illegal. Having said that, I think we’ll vote yes next year anyway.

    58. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Rev (3.42)-
      ‘ This unions thing is completely bewildering.’
       
      Could it be that someone sees a chance to pitch hapless Ed into a fight he can’t possibly win?
       
      They’d have as good a chance of being led into power by oor ain wee Johann, so why not toss Milliband a rusty bread knife and watch him hack off his own head? Very messy, but worth it in the end. 

    59. Yesitis says:

      I read this comment (by a certain Harry Chapman) on the Better Together Facebook page:
       
      Let’s also dispel the myth that anti-English sentiment would just disappear forever once an independent Scotland came into being. If anything, it would only just worsen it, with the Braveheart muppets having been permanently empowered and given a sense of victory. Anyone who thinks that these people would turn into fluffy, Anglo-friendly pussycats after independence is having a laugh.
       
      Here is the actual comment.
      http://imageshack.us/a/img203/8082/ujd8.jpg
       
      This is the kind of crap that goes on day in day out in the Scotland of Project Fear.

    60. Braco says:

      Brian Ritchie,
      great minds man, great minds…     (wink)

    61. faltdubh says:

      Speaking of polls.
       
      Does anyone know why we have not had one in a good while on Indy? Wasn’t the last one the Panelbase one which had Yes on about 37/No 43 and if leaving the EU was involved Yes/No both on 44.
       

    62. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Yesitis says:
       
      Planet Fear?
       
      Their World, their reality; not ours.

    63. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Dave McEwan Hill
       
      We have to convince the uniformed (that’s a PC euphemism, I’m not allowed to use the term “half wits”))that the clever people are”
       
      Well that’s the Polis told off and you have not been dossiered by GCHQ, although I might just have.
       
      Bugger!
       
      Smiley thingy

    64. Macart says:

      @Yesitis
       
      Seems like this poor lad has bought into the whole hate filled independistas bullshit. Never ceases to amaze how readily some people are willing to hate what they clearly don’t understand.

    65. kininvie says:

      O/T
      Results of an hour & half doorstepping in an owner-occupied estate in Central belt:
      Yes: 13
      No: 17
      Don’t Know: 29
      Make of it what you will:
       
      (as an aside, using Yes Scotland’s 1-10 scale, most ‘don’t knows’ put themselves on 5 – maybe so as not to cause offence. No one put themselves on 2,3,or 4. A few put themselves on 6,7,8 – but the default position is 5)

    66. CameronB says:

      Macart says; “Never ceases to amaze how readily some people are willing to hate what they clearly don’t understand”.

      How else do our leaders take us into wars, including the perpetual kind?

    67. Macart says:

      @CameronB
       
      Good point.
       
      Mind you near total control of broadcast and print media helps. Then we can be told who to hate and when.

    68. edulis says:

      Another Unionist myth bites the dust but will the MSM see it that way. The privatisation of the Royal Mail, which is incidentally making a profit and likely to continue to make profits with internet shopping throws up the genuine threat of the end of the universal postal service. Vince Cable even admits it by only guaranteeing it until 2025. Wy not make it legally binding on the terms of sale?
      But the real story is that every single scare we have experienced Alister Darling’s Project Fear team has been undone within hours. You could’t make it up!

    69. Shinty says:

      Results of an hour & half doorstepping in an owner-occupied estate in Central belt:
       
      I have just come across about 10 folk who don’t even know about ‘Yes Scotland’ – that in my opinion sums up the lack of interest in the debate – all the same they all said they’d be voting YES.
      However, it’s not all good news, there are a bunch of office staff at my husbands work that are naesayers, why? – because their boss tells them so and they follow like sheep.
       
      Work to be done folks, work to be done.

    70. Bugger (the Panda) says:

       edulis says

      But the real story is that every single scare we have experienced Alister Darling’s Project Fear team has been undone within hours. You could’t make it up!

       
      It is almost as though they (The LibConDems) are doing it on purpose.
       
      Anyone think that this is more than a coincidence?

    71. faltdubh says:

      kininvie
       
      Thanks for your reply. I make that very, very positive! I still believe that at least 35% of the public are yet to make their opinion. I know a few guys who have been knocking doors and say that many times over 50% are undecided!
       
      A long way to go, but plenty of work to be done, but we can mostly certainly win this!!

    72. a supporter says:

       
      faitdubh at 7.25 pm
      Speaking of polls
       
      It seems to me that those who commission polls only publish them when they support their cause.
       

    73. a supporter says:

       
      Shinty at 8.10 
      “However, it’s not all good news, there are a bunch of office staff at my husbands work that are naesayers, why? – because their boss tells them so and they follow like sheep.”

      Ah, but the boss won’t be there in the voting booth. And maybe the boss will change his mind too?

    74. naebd says:

      The privatisation of the Royal Mail […] throws up the genuine threat of the end of the universal postal service. Vince Cable even admits it by only guaranteeing it until 2025
      That’s simply scaremongering. If Gordon Brown had written such a guarantee in his own blood dated up til 3000AD, such a guarantee would be meaningless, it’s up to democratically elected governments to extend any guarantee. It’s a more than ten years FFS, and yet people are painting this doomsday scenario. Honestly, the ‘Yes’ camp can be so intelligence-insulting sometimes.

    75. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      a supporter
      “because their boss tells them so and they follow like sheep.”
      Ah, but the boss won’t be there in the voting booth. And maybe the boss will change his mind too?”
      The point I was making

    76. HandandShrimp says:

      naebd
       
      We can see where the other privatisations have taken us. Before you know it the French or Chinese will have gathered up the shares and the service we get will be the service we deserve for letting it slip out of our hands. This has nothing to do with Yes or No and everything to do with yet more right wing party ideology. It will be a bag of shite for the customer just wait and see.

    77. Linda's Back says:

      Not entirely O/T
      This week’s Private Eye has fallen for the Unionist mantra of claiming that the Saltire is a political flag but not of course the Union Flag which is always non political.
      SCOTTISH first minister Alex Salmond has been accused of hijacking Andy Murray’s Wimbledon victory by standing behind prime minister David Cameron and waving a Scottish flag, in apparent contravention of the All England Club’s ban on political flags and statements.  
      Then goes on to mention that Alex Salmond has met with Rupurt Murdoch and News International executives  25 times (in six years) . Dont know comparative figures but in one year David Cameron has met News International 27 times in this period, Ed Miliband 15 times and Alex Salmond nine times.
      Article proceeds to refer to Murdoch’s Ryder Cup tickets. The Ryder Cup package was part of a pre-arranged deal with the organisers and not an additional extra specifically for Murdoch, who declined the invitation.
       You can respond to strobes [at] private-eye [dot] co [dot] uk

    78. HandandShrimp says:

      Linda
       
      If the Saltire is political why did Cameron fly it for Andy’s visit? Hislop not at his brightest.

    79. Karamu says:

      O/T but when did BBC Radio Scotland start reporting cricket in the news section? Twice heard updates on the Ashes on Newsdrive today. It’s been a while since I lived in Scotland but I don’t recall any cricket news on BBC (Scotland)….

    80. Hetty says:

      Yes exactly, why do they oppose Scottish Independence so strongly if we are such a costly burden? We all know exactly why…they’d go down the pan even more without us, and chaos will unsu and it will be a close call as to how they sort it all out. 

    81. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Yesitis-
       
      Good article, jam-packed with Top Ten Shameful Scots, and this great line –
       
      ‘The warnings over Faslane come as the British government issues stark warnings to the people of Scotland about the dangers of independence.’
       
      Aye…we’re all bricking it big-time, a la Bruce Grobbelaar.
       
      AS has made the situation as plain as day at every opportunity – if there’s a Yes vote, Trident goes.
       
      That’s it.
       
      Fanny Alexander and Menzies ‘Yes, I’m-still-here’ Campbell can bump their gums all they like – it’s not their shout.

    82. CameronB says:

      @ Yesitis and ianbrotherhood
      I think Slumpy nailed it with “Gitmo on the Clyde”.
       
      Of course it will never happen, but try looking at it from the perspective of an uninformed spectator. It could gain as much traction as say, Project Fear’s roaming charges fiasco. I don’t think we need to get worked up about this one, though it was interesting to note that the task of sowing doom and gloom has fallen to the Guardian’s chief political correspondent. If you were looking for the positive in this, I’d say the independence debate has just been promoted. 🙂

    83. kininvie says:

      @ shinty -8.07pm
      I have just come across about 10 folk who don’t even know about ‘Yes Scotland’ – that in my opinion sums up the lack of interest in the debate –
      That’s correct. But this is why making the hard yards NOW is so important. No one, apart from we few sad people, is really going to be much interested before next summer. But pulling in the data about the soft vote now, and by speaking to people, and by encouraging them to get information and to start thinking…..well, it may seem like effort wasted. But no one who has ever run a campaign will say anything other than it is of vital importance…

    84. john king says:

      rev stu says 
      ” Scotland has, by general consent, a pretty clued-up electorate.”
       
      Oh how I wish I could agree with you, but I dint, I had the usual depressing conversation with a young woman of about 25 years just yesterday, and a comment was made by a team leader about supermarket air conditioning which(at least she believes)  that if there is a heatwave in London (where the supermarkets have their headquarters?) then they throw a switch and turn down the heating in all their supermarkets across the UK irrespective of the temperature in other parts, which I gently (if unadvisedly) picked up and said better together eh? to which  the young lady in question then went into the twtpts mantra that has been drummed into her , when I attempted to point out the devastation wrought on Scotland by Margaret Thatcher at the alter of neo liberal policies ( I didn’t actually use that phrase) she responded by saying “that was another generation” (meaning what happened to them is in the past) I (attempting to keep my temper) asked her to to consider why Scotland is the most unequal society in Europe (along with England) and her response was there are too many unanswered questions about independence? and her point was what will Scotland be like when the oil runs out and what will it be like in twenty years time? we cant go into independence without answers,  finally I thought, solid ground, when I pointed out that the the chancellor doesn’t know what the financial climate will be from one year to the next, hence the reason he holds a budget review every year but the better together campaign have you believing the independence movement should explain what we’ll be like in 20 years time, but then asked her to consider what a population of 5.2 million could do with as much a 4 trillion pounds with of oil wealth as opposed to having to give it to an exchequer who use it to prop up banks at our expense meanwhile take away peoples homes from them because they cant afford their bedroom tax, she the turned to another person and I could see her reaction reflected in her computer screen ,she was rolling her eyes as if I was some sort of fruitcake, interestingly though, the young lady next to her was listening attentively to the conversation and could sense she was receptive to the points I was making but the young woman I was talking to although (I beleive) open to persuasion (in spite of herself) was ignorant of the facts to a really frightening level, which only goes to show just how much work has to be done to raise that level (substantially) before next september

    85. john king says:

      james morton says
      “One swivel eyed bampot UKIPer I argued with stated that England got our resources, and we in Scotland got indoor toilets, otherwise we’d be a starving backward nation, and that is a FACT!. I’m more embarrassed at having attempted a debate with such a swivel eyed simpleton, but it underlines how deep this malaise goes.”
       
      I agree James some of the conversations I’ve had with waverers and seen (and had) online suggest we’re speaking to Stepford wives.
      the level of ignorance is staggering and just shows even now the power of the media, this cannot go on of course and it seems they are fighting vainly to keep a lid on the public finding out the real truth,
      the people of the middle east can show the British public how its done,(even China has a more open society these days than the closed shop of the unionist establishment)  to look beyond the piffle put out by their governments and find the real story, lets be honest, its just not that hard. 🙂

    86. john king says:

      mccart says
      “So if those folks say ‘independence, here be dragons’ that’s what they’ll believe, until they either get angry enough, disenchanted enough or hopeful enough to change their mind.”
      ayup 
      that’s I’ve been saying all along people are just too bleeding lazy to find out for themselves they will believe their elected mp whether he/she stands to gain personally from a no vote is irrelevant to them, the BBC has always been there and the steady relentless drip drip of unionist propaganda is so insidious it takes even the most cynical to see it (in the normal course of events) however during this period of increased media lies and propaganda, you would need to be in a coma not to notice the avalanche of  negativity coming from them ,and this is what we need to turn to our advantage 

    87. john king says:

      “It is almost as though they (The LibConDems) are doing it on purpose.

       Anyone think that this is more than a coincidence?”
       
      What are you saying bugger?
       the unionits are trying to spike their own guns? 
      don’t think that they are that smart to attempt to coerce the Scottish public into reacting to the wall of negativity by telling them to poke it, that’s giving them more credit than sadly I think they deserve, its just as likely that for every scare story rubbished, another portion of the electorate will not see the demolition of the story but swallow it whole. 

        

    88. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Not the Unionists, just the Tories.
       
      See that in perspective and you begin to see a pattern of undermining Darling and ergo Labour.
       
      Cameron stands to gain if Labour lose their wodge of seats at Westminster.
       
      He will not have a guaranteed majority in Westminster but as near as makes it a lot easier. Then factor in some gerrymandering of English constituency seats and bingo.
       
      All Cameron needs to do is
      a) Ensure Scotland keeps Sterling
      b) Faslane is kept for a defined period (see shit fan scene from The Guardian) until an alternative can be found. (Cumbria)
      c) Some sort of deal can be done to take Scottish Water to supply London
       
      Scotland was only about 4 things to Westminster, Oil, Fish, Trident and Water.
      They have annexed a large slice of the N Sea off Berwick and that wasn’t for fish; think fracked gas (no subsidence on land and potable water pollution) with perhaps recoverable oil in there too?
       
      As for the Fish, I has no traction anymore at Westminster as it was only used to buy off the Spanish. That is to a Free Scotland’s problem to solve.
       
      As a conspiracy theory it is looking more and more plausible. cf Trident invasion threat (how not negotiate rule 1, also known as gunboat diplomacy)
       
       
      Scotland



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