Life moves pretty fast
Posted on
January 16, 2019 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
The world's most-read Scottish politics website
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Wings Over Scotland is a (mainly) Scottish political media digest and monitor, which also offers its own commentary. (More)
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A tall tale
Wee Books
Video
Probably a robbery
Transphobia
Front page not updating.
I’m an Irish friend of Scotland. I hope that your leaders inside and outside of the SNP successfully lead you to indepence.
If they do then Ireland will be your closest ally and friend in the EU.
Scotland be brave…
No lemons. 🙁
Ah, Murdo the unelectable strikes again.
Interesting result. The poll doesn’t ask about “hard” or soft” BREXIT so it is the very idea of leaving the EU which people want to decide on.
Also, with only 3% don’t knows the NO vote can’t increase significantly.
This will have zero effect any utterance Murdo Fraser may make as he is immune to factuality.
Fantastic, and that’s before a campaign is underway. Let’s call the referendum and campaign BEFORE we leave the EU.
Come on SNP, use the mandate.
Murdo…milking the Scottish taxpayer for years !
A Charlatan of the Highest order !
the poll doesnt seem to have asked the question of how they would vote in the indyref2
it is still an encouraging poll none the less
Murdo Fraser is one of Scotland’s most accomplished village idiots. But that might be overstating his importance.
When I was a naive, not particularly knowledgeable political non-anorak, I advised my sister, who lives in Strathardle, to contact him re their lack of a decent internet connection (they were on a very slow dial-up, being at the furthest reach of the Kikmichael exchange), as he was going on about poor rural internet connection.
I don’t think she ever did. Good job – what was I thinking? I bet Murdo wouldn’t know what to do with an empty horse…
It’s coming and soon. People starting at last to realise Westminster is not our friend.
Kirsty Blackmail just confirmed SNP will vote in no confidence vote on Tories should it be called again.
Apparently the reporter just lied about it. Unusual
Good old Fudo Fraser, the man with a heid like a thrupenny bit (and thats not a euphemism) . The unelectable clown milking the taxpayers for years. We should have a poll asking should Scotland leave Murdo?
Laaydeez n’ ginnamin! Hay gif yooz, the maunderings of the most unelectable man in politics…. Murdo Thingmaboab. 😀
No support for 7 times loser Murdo, get back in your box.
I also think Murdo is below average intelligence and thinking ability. I had a lab tech during my PhD a bit like that. Fine if he did things constantly but if not needed retraining after intervals off. I got given him as the boss didn’t have enough he trusted him to do.
I suppose it’s a luxury to have your own technical help during your PhD but it often didn’t feel like it. Though it served to increase my regard for every competent technician it has been my great pleasure to work with subsequently.
Here’s another poll: Do you think a person who has failed to win his Holyrood seat 5 times, and only became a list MSP because the previous incumbent resigned, should lecture others about support?
Yes: 1
No: everybody else
I hope he’s been saving for a rainy day. Putting by some of the £hundreds of thousands that he’s been robbing from the tax-payers, as his time is just about up.
Facts never get in the way of Britnat media and politicians when they are spouting their propaganda. They will still say there is no evidence that Scotland wants another independence referendum. They have said that for years even though the Scotgov has a mandate for one.
Britnats will and do lie.
What’s this? May to make statement in Downing St at 10, following talks with other leaders.
Corbyn giving in ?
I remember a former miner union man tell me:
Judge the Tories by what they do, not what they say.
Murdo the exception that proves the rule?
First I saw of that “SNP will support Tories in future confidence votes” was a post by Evolve Politics on Twitter.
Pure clickbait. Everyone responded to the post by calling them fckin liars.
@Bob Mack
Sky said her statement is “to speak directly” to the country.
That’s code for some dog whistling.
Murdo squeezes another one out, just for old times sake.
Half hearted effort really
So May’s going live outside Downing Street at 10pm tonight.
Doing all their own lighting etc, which seems pretty ‘official’.
Can’t have come to some sort of deal so soon? Speculation…she’s gonnae resign.*
*awright, awright…wishful thinking.
Resignation me thinks- well there’s a glimmer hopefully -well maybe not but lets see.
Val..shouldn’t think so in terms of dog whistling, it’s only been a couple of hours since she got her confidence vote, there’s nothing else on the table for her to get in front of everyone and say…’get on side’ etc.
K1
This is May we are talking about. She will be about to announce everyone else has to resign.
He’s no the brightest, but these people are not daft either. They are well versed in how to con people.
It’s getting close. The Britnats must be sh****g themselves re their Scotland colony, it just can’t last, and they know it but refuse to accept the end of the relationship. They are not ‘stable’ though, so could get nasty.
Loved Mairi Black at WM today, she is brilliant.
I have been bad, sent a wee rant email to a no voting pal, because this cesspit ‘UK’ is damaging Scotland already, majorly. It cannot be swept under the carpet anymore. :-/
I’m taking no prisoners now.
Nah H&S…lol
It’s less than 3 hours…she’s been talking to the other party leaders in Hoc, she’s stuffed…she can’t ‘guarantee no deal’ which is what Corbyn and Ian Blackford demanded before any discussions could begin.
She hasn’t the confidence from her own party on the deal. So she can’t get her ‘deal’ through.
As the way things are panning out I predict that if there is no referendum called before the 29th of March there will be no Scottish Government sitting at Holyrood to call it afterwards.
May is hell bent on dragging this whole schamozzle out with delay after delay with one goal mind. That is, get to the 29th of March and leave the EU without a deal.
Save the billions that would otherwise be forthcoming in the event of a deal.
Scupper Dublin’s written agreement of an NI backstop.
Create such a climate of economical unrest that she can fully justify calling a state of emergency.
Suspend Holyrood – due to the ‘civil war’ that is tearing the Scottish government apart (as headlined in all the Scottish newspapers.
Wait for the newly drafted acts of union to be passed by the House of Lords and then get the newly installed (3,000 civil servants) administration in Edinburgh to ratify it on behalf of the Scottish people thus sealing off all further thoughts of independence.
Chilling to think she is only a few months away from achieving the whole shebang.
The EU petition currently numbers 5,030 (not bad for two days). In all honesty, I would have thought that figure needs to be showing six figures to give the EU some sort of compulsion to act in Scotland’s favour.
The Rev did give this petition a shout out on his twitter feed. I think everyone needs to sign it and follow suit.
😀
How can Nicola drop a campaign which she hasn’t even started?
And which she is not going to start anytime soon, since she is more focused on a second EU referendum first.
What if there is a second EU referendum and less than 62% vote remain in Scotland?
No politician in Scotland has ever blown it as big time as Nicola did, in my humble opinion.
Fek it ah wiz looking forward tae FMQs tomorrow now ah know whit the theme is it’ll no be the same lol.
Pete Wishart:- ”They want a General Election but Labour can’t say if they are a party of Brexit or a party against.”
://twitter.com/PeteWishart/status/1085576241690935296?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
………………………….
Philippa Whitford:- ”Yet again the Scottish Secretary doesn’t answer my question on Scottish immigration but is just rude in response! Why does he NEVER #StandUpForScotland??”
link to twitter.com
Watched T.May nodding in agreement with DUP Dodds as he reminds her that they hold the ammunition to bring her down, and she had better take heed. So that’s only a defeat of 210 once she has the DUP on side, just another 105 MP’s to persuade, and they are not all ERG. Although you can never trust the LibDems, they are also a lot cheaper than the DUP, just a couple of promises and a few limos should do it.
Briandoonthetoon 8.57
What a great typo!
Bring on the empty horses for Murdo!
And wouldn’t it be funny if May announces her resignation.
The Maybot to announce that she is to set up a public enquiry into the Salmond/Sturgeon affair.
The Britnat media will now be able to say that there are 6 (or is it 7).
Meanwhile in the real world people are dying due to Tory policies and Westminster continues to suck out the oil from Scotlands waters and keep the revenues.
The lectern is the rampant and unicorn one…what does that mean again?
Ooops – Pete Wishart / Corbyn link..
link to twitter.com
FFS Rockshit is back.
You let me down Santa.
First minister’s questions tomorrow, possibly more pointless attacks on Nicola regarding Mr Salmond. What an utter waste of time, Nicola will see off both the ‘Better together’ Britnats and their vile media pals. A new Scottish Independence referendum is within our grasp, surely this time we will win.
Aye but he’s not copying and pasting.
[…] Wings Over Scotland Life moves pretty fast Read the full article:: Wings Over Scotland Life […]
To successfully defend the indefensible requires a great deal of skill and the system excelled in this regard.
But the final word goes to the relative who said, “thank you to everyone for their continuing support and this is not the end of it.”
The great Hank Williams is singing “Cold Cold Heart” in the background as I compile this. Appropriate in the circumstances.
link to caltonjock.com
Theresa May has the mindset of those who love to be portrayed as fighting against seemingly impossible odds to prevail.
A sycophantic media – they same criminals who traised Farage from the swamp – have done their best to broadcast that view.
The saintly Theresa has been knifed in the back, stabbed in the front and assailed from all sides during her herioc attempt “to get the job done”.
She is a Joan of Arcn figure *oops, poor analogy – she’s French* in the eyes of unthinking millions.
‘The bigger the setback the stronger my resolve’ is her mantra.
And tonight’s vote has poured new blood into the walking corpse.
Which is about to regale us in five minutes about her determination to plough forward.
I said earlier her biggest dread is losing Scotland. So I can see her sticking two fingers in the eyes of the DUP and hard Brexiteers and dangle the prospect of a customs union Brexit. We’ll see. I may be wrong. Whatever happens the SNP will be ready with a reposte.
Never mind Cubby, maybe the moderators won’t let him quote himself for the 2641st time.
Oh well all the speculation from the craven msm as saying this is just a ‘reassurance, I’m still in charge speech’. Looks like ye were correct Val.
treezas address to the plebs
suck it up folks, brexit means brexit
If I ever get a goldfish i’m going to call it Murdo.
Two and half years on and the loser has now decided to involve other political parties, except for Corbyn who’s no playing until she takes no deal off of the table.
Wahelll, There you go! Right from Treeza’s own mooth. Brexit (of some yet to be decided kind) WILL be delivered.
All she has to do is help folks decide what Brexit to deliver.
Meanwhile in Scotia… 🙂
Divide and conquer, mentioning the SNP and Plaid kinda ‘being cooperative’ but big bad Labour not, was an aspect to that wee pishy speech from her there.
“schrodingers cat says:
16 January, 2019 at 8:51 pm
the poll doesnt seem to have asked the question of how they would vote in the indyref2
it is still an encouraging poll none the less”
It also didn’t say anything about leave with a deal or a no deal.
Well that was a waste of time.
I’m sure Treeza is on the high functioning autistic spectrum.
It explains a lot.
Ha ha ha. “We must put narrow self interest aside”. From the lips of a woman who gave the DUP over a billion pounds to stay in power, and who is obeying the ERG and their ludicrous demands so they will vote for her. She has completely ignored countless pleas to listen to other parties, especially the SNP.
She is many thing is Mrs May, but she is the most self interested being in the country.
The woman is utterly in sightless.
O/T
Article about potential future economic effects of stockpiling in preparation for a no-deal Brexit.
Could a Brexit bullwhip cause turmoil in European industrial production?
If only Nicola had struck when the iron was hot, Scotland would have been on the verge of independence right now.
Rock (21st February 2016 – “More repeats”):
“Many in Scotland are not too keen on the EU.
But supporters of independence voting in Scotland should vote to remain in. Those voting in rest of UK should vote to get out.
If a clear majority in Scotland votes to remain in but the overall vote is to get out, there will be another independence referendum sooner rather than later, which Yes will most likely win.
My preferred outcome is for Scottish Yes votes to tip the balance in favour of remaining while England votes narrowly to exit.
The right wing press and the likes of Farage will fall over themselves to make Scotland leave the UK, debt free, keep sterling if you want, Shetlands are yours.
It will be the best revenge Scotland could have got in its 300 years plus as a “sovereign” colony.”
O/Tbit soon to be disruping thread with a long post so have posted over on OT post from Facebook about A scots constition, well worth a read.
Today in Herald article called:
‘David Mundell faces fresh calls to resign over Brexit vote’
‘Mr Mundell insisted he was “not out of step with opinion in Scotland”, adding: “People in Scotland do not want another independence referendum
Dominic Grieve just said on Newsnight That “there are 560 or 570 MPs out of 650 that will NOT accept a No deal”
Make your own mind up then as to where we go from here.
While backing a second EU referendum, does Nicola realise the consequences of a narrow Yes vote in a future independence referendum in Scotland, if it were ever to happen?
Another referendum to reverse the Yes result after 2 years of pointless “negotiations” and a waste of millions of pounds.
Like the Section 30 order in 2014, a precedent will be set which will prove to be a burden later.
Mark my words: No Section 30 order from Westminster, No Scottish independence referendum.
Most citizens would want their country to prosper economically for current and future generations. Who would vote to be poorer?
There are 2 inevitable outcomes accelerated by the external shock of Brexit. Scotland remains independent within the EU and this;
‘The 1998, Good Friday Agreement (GFA) has been largely responsible for ending the Troubles, creating conditions for economic growth, and, most importantly for our purposes, allows for a reunification referendum in Northern Ireland. At the time of its passage, this clause of the GFA was inconsequential as a vast majority of Northern Irish citizens would have voted against reunification. But as the years pass, it has increasingly become more likely that reunification through referendum will occur…Although this issue is immensely complicated, there are three discernible reasons that warrant believing that reunification is rising in popularity among Northern Irish citizens in the wake of Brexit: (1) demographic changes, (2) the influence of Europe, and (3) a likely economic shock…Even before Brexit, the demographic changes in Northern Ireland have weakened the recalcitrant Unionist position…However, the most significant demographic shift that will tip the scales is age. Northern Ireland’s youth supports reunification by healthy margins as Brexit and the hard border it could bring threatens the prosperous economic and social conditions they were raised in…The external shock of Brexit has accelerated these trends and made reunification near inevitable’
link to blog.politics.ox.ac.uk
Elizabeth Stanley @ 10.17.
Bit of an insult to lots of lovely, clever, kind people on the on the high functioning autistic spectrum.
@Phronisis,
Mr Varadkar tonight has warned that Ireland has to unfortunately step up plans for a hard border because the UK with no deal would have reneged on the Good Friday agreement by default.
Wow! I haven’t read Angus B McNeils Twitter account for a while and I must say, he isn’t mincing his words. I wonder how many other MPs are thinking like him.
He definitely hasn’t got comfy in the role, even though he has been down there for years.
I’m not on Twitter so anyone can read his thoughts on the current situation by searching for his name and clicking his Twitter link. Scroll back through his last dozen posts and read the replies. Let’s just say he is to the point and I don’t feel so isolated in my idea for the way forward.
A must read.
I always liked Angus.
Theresa May has no intention of talking to anyone, her intention is to threaten everyone with continually pushing on and on towards no deal while simultaneously holding her own deal in the other hand and waiting for Labour to do what they always do, give in, and the hard Brexiters in her own party will balk at the idea of the stock market collapse and give in as well (except for the well rich Tories who’ve moved their money already)
This is all about nerve and who’s got the bottle to see a no deal Brexit through or who’ll jump at the last minute
I can tell you who it won’t be, it won’t be the SNP Nicola Sturgeon’s been forecasting this for months
Theresa May is bonkers. she’ll do it she’ll crash the economy rather than let Jeremy Corbyn anywhere near Number 10 knowing the Tories can still win a GE with whoever is the next leader of the Tory party
Isn’t that right Mr Gove…..or one of his mates
Here’s hoping Murdo is attending the SIU Burns dinner in Glasgow next Thursday. He was there last year.
A few of us will be there to greet the guests.
Anyone have any specific questions for Murdo?
Tatu3
There was no insult intended. Just an observation. You said lots.I was pointing out a possible exception to the rule.
There are lots of lovely English people staying in Scotland.
They are not all the same & some even vote against Scottish independence!
@Ian Brotherhood
Is Murdo still a friend of Spongebob Squarepants
I feel that’s an important question that needs answering
@Ian Brotherhood
Question for Murdo:
Did you get any O levels?
Question for Murdo. I’ve got one, well two really.
Does yer maw drink wine?
Does she drink it ah the time?
@Elizabeth Stanley
If the worst were to happen and Scotland turned down the opportunity for Independence again I’d feel sorry for all the English folk who voted YES to help Scotland who will feel massively uncomfortable at the thought of being blamed for it
There are still some folk confusing Englands politics with English people
thepnr@10.53 pm
I have never doubted that there is a majority in the Hof Commons against a no deal Brexit but the important question is how do they change the law/date without cancelling Brexit as the PM and Corbyn both want Brexit. Until I see some sort of process being put together to do this then a no deal Brexit still seems a runner to me. Not a wholly bad result as a united Ireland and Independent Scotland will probably occur.
Mr Tory England Up the Gers Mundane Grazer couldn’t run a bath!
One of the best Brexit comments that I’ve heard in the last 24 hours came from the Head of the German Chamber of Commerce.
He would rather see Brexit having a Horrible Ending
than an never ending Horror.
Mhairi Blacks statement today about further UK theft of our state pensions has really shocked me at the Tory audacity and the UK media’s cover up of a National Theft.
Does anyone have a link to how this Universal Credit is supposed to work?
I’m think about a couple that I know. She is older and was told throughout her working life, starting work in 1973 aged 15, that she could have her State Pension at age 60.
The Tories then advise that she has to work until age 67.
Today this lady can now look toward Means Test Begging for a Tory Universal Credit, even after 52 years of working contributions, because her husband’s age is some 3 years less than her own.
From what I hear, she should get some money but a loss of £7,000 per annum during that 3 year period when compared to the State Pension rate.
The Tories can now give that £21,000 to their filthy rich supporters and a worker paying into the system for over 50 years will receive her pension at age 70, a full 10 years after what she was promised.
The next Westminster step is 70 before any pensions and then the short hop over to no state pension for an one.
For pity sake fight for your lives and free Scotland from the world’s most corrupt government in the Westminster HQ
@ Dr Jim
Thankyou.
A terrific take from another angle.
Robert Penton saying that the DUPS Niger Dodds is effectively the UK Prime Minister, as May cannot survive without his say so.
How sad is that ? Ruled by a relic of the Dark Ages.
DUP decides to ‘move forward’ – to 1691
Ian Brotherhood@11.25pm
For Murdo
1. Is your date tonight Clair Ridge
2. When you come for king Salmond you better get it right.
3. Why do you conflate politics with football.
If Murdo is reading this then maybe he will have time to think up some witty ripostes like …..well maybe not.
@Dr Jim & Thepnr –
Cheers!
🙂
Someone, somewhere, suggested that we ask him how he feels about Clair Ridge declaring that she will stand against him in the next Holyrood election.
Was it someone here?
Was it me?
I can’t remember anything these days…
😉
Just watching Scottish Questions, first one for a while.
I’d love to see some sort of infographic or table showing question asked, e.g. about immigration which is reserved to Westminster and a correct subject for Scottish Questions, with an answer from Mundell about tax policy of the Scottish Government which is nothing to do with Westminster or Mundell.
And questions from the Tories about the tax policy which should, of course, be ruled out of order by the Speaker.
@Cubby –
We overlapped there!
FFS!
It must be fated then, that The Murdo is to be directly quizzed about The Clair.
If the stars are so aligned on the night, believe me, it shall be done!
😉
link to youtube.com
Oh wait! Did you say Murdo?
Has Rockshit been limited to one post per day, no forecasts and no copy and paste from 5 years ago?
I think Murdo was only put on the planet to make Kezia look bright
Good grief, the defence minister has quoted the NSS (National Shibuilding Strategey) as defining warships as frigates, destroyers and carriers.
That’s plain wrong. Submarines are most definitely classed as warships, and I’d be very surprised if OPVs and even MCMs aren’t also classed as such.
Fleet Solid Support Ships are 50-50, but as far as EU regs are concerned, CAN be excluded on the grounds of national security.
By the way, on the basis that it’s better to look for friends than make enemies, all the Labour questions were hostile to Mundell. Still watching on pause / rewind 🙂
I hope none of Rock’s posts pass moderation, his posts and others have been putting even me off from bothering. This thread and the last bit of the last one are way better without his pathetic repetitive disruptions where all he does is quote himself or others from way back.
Great poll!
By the way what happened to the lemonade post Rev?
Agree submarines are warships.
One interesting stat I came across some years ago was that Germany lost nearly a thousand U-boats in WWII, more than twice the combined allied surface warships.
Far less chance of survival if you were a U-boat crew member than a naval surface vessel crew member during the war.
Kinda flies in the face of the sneaky, cowardly, propaganda meme propagated at the time.
yesindyref2 @ 00:31,
Isn’t it just? =whistles=
My prediction of 70% Yes ,30% No. Im 2016 doesn’t seem such a crazy result.
Brexit is a God send.
“By the way what happened to the lemonade post Rev?”
Don’t know to what you are referring but maybe it’s over on Scot goes Pop? 🙂
English Brexiteer MPs still telling us the EU needs England more than England needs the EU.
I am so glad we have these deluded halfwits on the other side of our border.
England is welcome to them.
Here’s a handy tool for polls. For instance the Herald poll with 337 sample poll gives a 5% margin of error, compared to the usual 3% for 1020.
link to surveymonkey.com
Most of the Tory and Labour MPs who pontificate on Scotlands politics and life in Scotland have never set foot in Scotland
They make decisions on Scotlands future yet have never even been in Scotland
They argue with Scotlands MPs that they know what’s best for Scotland and Scottish MPs should shut up and go back to Scotland, again a country they’ve never been to
They stamp their Union flag over all Scotlands produce to proclaim their ownership of Scotland, yet they’ve probably never even eaten any of it
They send their Queen to Scotland and people go out and wave Union flags in honour of the visit of a woman who’s house most Scottish people have never seen except from the outside on TV
This is the way it was for all colonial territories until they got fed up with the great white mother in England and took their Independence and not one of those countries or territories has ever asked to return to the bosom of the United Kingdom of mother England
Because their countries were all robbed blind by the same people who never set foot in them but took everything they could from them
Scotland has more assets than every single one of those places who don’t want to return, so they must be doing OK without the blessings bestowed upon them by the UK
So what’s the hold up, let’s vote YES and get happy like all those other places who celebrate their freedom every year with big goddamn parties of music and dancing and fireworks
What a thing to look forward to
Yes and that 56.55% contains the expectations of former no voters 2. Though it’s the potential previous NON voters that interest me… IF they vote, they will vote Yes2 this time.
Re the party leader comments following the confidence vote, oor Ian Blackford was also interrupted and abruptly cut off from the LBC wireless radio show earlier, how co-ordinatingly convenient.
LBC ~ Leading Britain’s Conversation
more like
LLC ~ Leading London’s Conversation
link to lbc.co.uk
Hey haul here’s today’s front page Scotland:
link to twitter.com
UK End of Days… Day 3.
@Cactus
The potential non voters in indyref2 are of interest to me. I would guess that there are many previous no voters out there who, whilst they cannot quite bring themselves to vote for independence, will abstain.
The opportunity that they present to aid a successful outcome is about the same size as the opportunity that they present for a “manipulation” of the final tally.
Along with scrutiny of the postal vote, it would be of huge advantage to the ensurance of fairness to have an individual tally of numbers of votes cast at each individual polling place.
Here’s a thought.
“Drip, drip, drip…” that’s how the MSM abuse the unaware.
So “PICK, PICK, PICK…” is what Yes2 has to do.
link to youtube.com
All it takes is pressure and time.
A merry 17th January 2019.
Use your hammers.
Andy knows.
Mornin’ Gerry ~
Agreed, it’s a kinda British Nationalist voter fatigue, magic:
link to youtube.com
‘Mon the new to Yes voters!
Nigel Evans, Tory, and Caroline Lucas, Green, being interviewed by the BBC this morning (LibDem, Cable interviewed earlier) about the meeting with Big T. No sign of anyone from the SNP. Here we go again.
Nigel Evans states:- ”We need the support of the DUP. Without them we can’t govern.”
That’s where we are, in a nutshell. The DUP representing a country that voted to remain is pushing to leave on their terms.
In other words Scotland is now being controlled by the cruel, callous Tories and the sectarian Orange Order. A party that we didn’t vote for and one that we can’t vote for. Say no more.
Turnout IndyRef1. 80%.
Average turnout GE etc 55%+ Local ecorction 40%+
Turnout for Indy Ref 80%. A much higher turnout, The most ever? The highest ever?
The people most likely to swing a change of mind. A percentage of people (25%+ ) that never vote. No so entrenched.
Many more migrants would vote YES because they want to stay in the EU. Or as close as possible. There are reports many voted NO before because they were told (untrue),they would lose EU membersjop. 200,000 is the reported nos. How they voted for sure no one knows. If that is correct. If they changed from NO to YES. That helps to get over the line. Or is 200,000 not the complete correct no?
Not to worry because the BBC is remaking episodes of Dads Army.
If you’re not familiar, it’s about plucky Little England standing up to a foreign bully.
I’ll bet money yhey don’t remake Auf Wiedersehen Pet.
DUP gets 300,000 (approx) NI. Sin Fein get 270,000. Total Opposition get 450,000 votes.
Electorate 1.2Million. Pop 1.8Million.
56% vote to Remain EURef, looks like DUP stance will lose them future support. If they losecsupport opposition gain. Demographically Ireland could vote to unite. The DUP stance could cause a backlash, that could result in Ireland unification.
The DUP break UK Law in NI, They are a Law unto themselves. They want to remain part of the UK so they can break UK Law. They get away with it. Bigoted, racist, misogynist. They do not uphold human rights comittment or legislation but discriminate. Their behaviour past and present discriminates against others. They are despicable.
The DUP stance could bring about, what they fear most, a united Ireland because they would lose their discriminately powers. They illegally discriminate against others. They get away with it for unionist votes in Westminster. The Tories bsck them up. Instead of enforcing UK Law. After Ireland was unlawfully Partitioned aganist the people’s wishes. Recognised as an illegal act worldwide. Lloyd George partioned Ireland. The British State enforced it against people in Ireland’s wishes.
The Balfour Agreement 1917 caused trouble, worldwide. Middle East partioned illegally.
Millions have died because of it.
@Ian Brotherhood says: 17 January, 2019 at 12:06 am:
” … Was it someone here?
Was it me?
I can’t remember anything these days… “
You are not alone – neither can Theresa May.
?
Thatcher was leader of the Tories from 1975 to 1990. She was PM for 11years 1979 till 1990. It was EU matters that brought Thatcher down. The Tories went in till 1997. Ruinig the economy. Especially in Scotland. They used the Oil revenues and Scotttish resources to fund London S/E. Stagnated the population in Scotland and increasing the population of London S/E causing congestion. Damaging the UK economy. Leading to a recession. High unemployment, high interest and high inflation. Civil unrest in the streets and violent confrontation. The only place unemployment was lower than 10% was London S/E.
Imagine admitting that one needs the support of the DUP to continue to govern?
What a bloody embarrassment.
And imagine giving a billion pound bribe to Neanderthals.
Petra
Snp, Gethins, was interviewed by john Sir humphreys.
It was before 7 am.
The ebc don’t want to frighten the Natives by having the SNP on before the watershed.
Balance and lack of Balance you see!!!!!!
R4 has been converted to a Tabloid and the shift change comes after 8, World news sets the broadcast news until the day shift comes on and applies the bias.
Note the maybot quote has No reference to the 19 vote margin as Overwhelming.
the 230 margin as Large.
Irish independent suggesting that Vardaker, Merkel, and Macron have agreed on offering UK a 1 year extension to article 50 should they request it. Will indyref2 be deferred again should that occur?
John Major was PM from 1990 till 1997.
If there was a GE, now after 10 years the Tories would lose. It shows how badly they are doing, Thry could cling on for two years+ Then they are out.
Unelectable Murdo is just another blot on Scottish politics, we have quite a few of them, unfortunately.
I look forward to the day that when being hung over, he accidentally uses a large tube of super glue instead tooth paste.
OK Murdo? MMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmm !
link to gov.scot
The @scotgov Resilience Committee is meeting weekly to manage and escalate matters as needed & we have a public information campaign in the final stages of development in the event of a ‘No Deal’ situation.
link to twitter.com
link to gov.scot
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
link to spice-spotlight.scot
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
link to theorkneynews.scot
link to insider.co.uk
link to caltonjock.com
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
link to barrheadboy.com
Ah now it becomes clear
link to twitter.com
Therc will be another Indy Ref when it can be won, That is the time to have it. If people vote for it. Not during a GE or an EU Ref which could be a distraction. It would not be advantageous to be holding an IndyRef when other campaigns were going on. There is time if people vote for it. Other campaigns can endorse Independence support. A High vote for the EU. Or a High vote for the SNP. This shows Independence support. Increased support for IndyRef2.
Vote SNP/SNP. The best chance for an Indy Ref. Then vote for Independence. The vote is in the people’s hand,
link to leftungagged.org
link to lesleyriddoch.com
link to peterabell.blog
link to grumpyscottishman.wordpress.com
link to welfareweekly.com
link to rte.ie
link to centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk
link to irishtimes.com
DUP leader accused of rewriting history with claim
link to archive.is
link to lbc.co.uk
Tories set up fund to give convicted aide a ‘short holiday’
link to archive.is
Hunger Striking Labour Cllr BLASTS UK Arms Sales to Saudi Arabia, Involvement in Yemen War
link to youtube.com
Fintan O’Toole writes
After Theresa May’s historic defeat, what next for Brexit? The past, imagined and real, offers fascinating answers
link to archive.is
Does Brexit risk overshadowing EU elections? | Raw Politics
Tony Connelly says
“There are all sorts of minefields on this”.
Video here
link to twitter.com
Sleekit lib dumb
link to twitter.com
Conservative party may now be heading for a major split
link to archive.is
Good old labour with noses firmly in the trough
link to twitter.com
while in his constituency
link to twitter.com
link to brexitshambles.com
link to ukdefencejournal.org.uk
ken 500
spot on . A referendum on independence has to be won. So likely time? After Westminster messes up more and we head for no deal Brexit within the transition period and before the next Scottish elections.
Independence in the EU or Norwegian option for me. The political attacks and imprisonment of Catalonians is a disgrace and the EU should be ashamed of themselves hence my drift to option 2 for us.
Slightly off topic I donated again to the indy 2 campaign volunteered to help and still wait for a reply. Can those with influence ratchet up ALL pro-independence groups as by all bets the independence referendum will be this year.
link to thenational.scot
In which Emmanuel Macron nails Brexit:
link to twitter.com
Brexit: the noes to the left
link to eureferendum.com
This Brexit business is a marvel. Genuinely. It’s borderline
link to threadreaderapp.com
Poll tax tax introduced in Dcotland 1989. Introduced 1990 rest of UK. Abolished in 1993. Community charge introduced.
Thatcher introduced student loans, (£3000? a year) but everyone got one. Not means tested. Living allowance. Instead of (non repayable) grants. Grants were means tested in household income. University fees were still paid (in Scotland) after Blair introduced fee repayment.
Condemns frantically inceased Fees, repayment and higher student loans (rest of the UK). Condems elected to protect NHS and Education cut the funding. Lied. Cut welfare funding. The UK tax revenues were increasing but they cut funding for essential services. Austerity a false economy. Creating hardship for people. Sanctionig and starving people. Killing the elderly who vote for them.
Re. the poll . . .
How is the Herald audience panel selected?
As someone who shares a home with a person diagnosed as having High Functional Autism I don’t think so. She’s just pig-headed, not that bright, and probably has got herself convinced that God is on her side.
Cameron on the other hand is a walking(away) talking textbook example.
So everything is not on the table. PM’s offer of talks is a promise to listen, but only if we all agree with her
link to twitter.com
The new trainspotting film looks pure shite …
link to twitter.com
link to opendemocracy.net
link to channel4.com
One thing I think Teresa May will not allow is the revocation of Article 50, a No Brexit (sane as that would be!) because it would expose all her tax havening cronies when the new EU Tax Laws come into force.
Nor does she want to find out that the electorate has in fact changed its collective mind based on the doomsday information they are finally receiving. So no EURef2.
I imagine she will oft repeat that she has listened carefully to colleagues from right around her parliament.
But I don’t recall hearing Teresa saying she would act on any of that ‘listening’.
I think the UK public will be presented with a Jolly Hard Brexit (it’ll be dashed good for you and character building!) or if they’re really naughty, a No Deal Run off the Cliff shouting Geronimo Brexit.
Scotland will be Independent.
Ireland will be reunified.
Wales will find some way to rebel.
And England will have alot of broken pieces to pick up and mend.
At the very least I think some folk will be a long time regretting it all.
What a fine mess you’ve got us into this time!
Theresa Mays handling of Brexit has been to say the least bad and in most bad situations no matter how bad you can always find a reason to say ” well it could be worse” but I can’t think of one solitary thing she can do now to make this worse than it is now it’s that bad
The EU are not responsible about how countries enforce their internal affairs. That is not the deal. The EU is a trading advisory organisation. Governance is mainly 10% for trade and employment rights. To guarantee free and fair trade. Movement of people for employment etc. It does not have jurisdiction over internal matters. If people do not vote for it. It is up to people of the countries for what they vote. The ECHR is a separate organisation set up after the 11WW by UK participation.
Blame the Spanish Gov for what it is doing. The people in Spain vote for it. It is up to them to change the Spanish Law. Their legal system and bureaucrscy. They have 4 months holiday a year. 1 month in December, 1 month at Easter. Two monther in summer July and August. It is too hot work. Religious festivals etc. The administration shuts down. Gov offices, schools close. Less people in work. There is a large black labour market. Deregulated but limited. That is why they are always on the streets. Plenty of time off.
The spin on the outcomes from the past couple of days hi jinks is truly bizarre. Apparently no deal has been ruled out by parliament. I’m not entirely sure the media have grasped just what no deal actually is yet.
Heh! Lindsay Bruce on the Rev’s twitter feed has the right of it regards no deal. It is in fact one of the default positions of Brexit. It cannot be removed regardless of what a parliament determined to pursue Brexit insists. If that parliament and its government cannot reach a satisfactory solution with the significant other in this farce (that being the EU), then there are only two default options available. Parliament can cancel Brexit, or no deal it is.
May set a bunch of red lines. The EU has its own red lines. Brexiteers in parliament and on the streets of the UK have their ideas on red lines t’boot. You can see why it’s fairly essential to lay out, and prepare for, precise outcomes in any ballot at this point. There was of course no Brexit outcome laid out or prepared for by either the leave campaign or Cameron’s government. He really is an epic (fill in as appropriate). Regardless, he did what he did and left the populations of the UK in an economic, political and societal mincer.
The ONLY people whose opinion truly matters in this farce? That would be the EU. They are the institution who are being left and have made it abundantly clear from the get go that the bod doing the leaving doesn’t get to alter their rules to suit themselves. It doesn’t matter what May’s government wants. It doesn’t matter what the leave campaign’s main players promised the voter. It doesn’t matter what jingoism in the past two years from the likes of May, Bo jo, Fox, Davis and Raab promised either. It doesn’t matter what the Brexiteer in the street wants, or thinks they are entitled to, from the EU. It only matters what the EU are willing to offer that won’t harm the integrity of their charter or disadvantage their twenty seven member states.
No deal is NOT off the table for the populations of the UK. As for what kind of deal can be returned by May’s government? I doubt very much the one already out there will change significantly. The EU have made their position pretty clear regards their red lines and no, I don’t think ooooohhhh Jeremy Corbyn would have returned a better deal either.
There is not and never was a Brexit deal for those seeking to enjoy all, or even some, of the access without complying with all the rules. No being in without being in. Right now there is only the difference between a 6% and an 8% contraction of the economy of the UK, a political meltdown and a society hopelessly divided (more like fractured).
For an idea of the scale of shit storm a 6 or 8% contraction means? Austerity legislation and over a decade of misery for huge swathes of the UK’s populations was brought in on the back of a 2% contraction in 2008. That’s basically a statement of public record.
Both of those estimates mean disaster. You can fill in your own images of what disaster means.
We do NOT have to go there. Probably worth a thought.
Have you ever heard so much Westminster Establishment desperation and panic stations as BBC Jockland Radio this morning.
The Call Kaye, (wi wan e’e), topic this morning is, “Should there be an upper age limit on getting the voting franchise”.
This in a country with the World’s biggest non-elected parliamentary body of mainly old retired alcoholic numpties and the elected governments at Westminster, in devolved countries and in local councils is most certainly biased towards the older demographic.
Only a desperate English nationalist propaganda organisation could dream up such an obviously desperate topic.
Theresa May is 62, Corbyn is 69, Trump is 72 and Boris is 54. So does this mean that Boris will automatically the Prime Minister when May gets over some arbitrary age limit?
Radio Jockland has been edging on the point of being totally irrelevant for some years now but this lot certainly is from outer space and a different galaxy.
Not to mention that one of the persons they are holding up as an example is that idiot – Jeremy Clarkson.
If tory Murdo Fraser seriously believes the rubbish he spouts about there being absolutely no support for a second Scottish independence referendum, and that Nicola Sturgeon needs to drop her campaign now, its not wanted.
What does he makes of Brexit and Theresa May ploughing on with it, despite her losing three votes in the commons.
And all polls indicate there is no support for Brexit in Scotland, has he told Mrs May that she needs to drop her campaign now-its not wanted
Teresa May listens to no one. Intransigent. It is her way or no way.
Some Tories have been trying to get out of the EU since 1975. Since the UK voted in. Hard right Tories. John Redwood, Tebbit, Duncan Smith, Hague etc, They have campaigned against EU membership ever since. When the population in the UK was much lower. The old guard hard right Tories plus some new additions, Boris Johnstone etc. He just wants to be PM. A total hypocrite. He would not last. He is a migrant born in New York. Raised in Brussels on EU monies. His father was an EU diplomat. Boris Johnstone is voting for measures and proposals that could see him (his family) deported. That’s how insane they can be.
They are actually arguing about who gets to be PM. Most of what they say about the EU is lies but they use it to cover their failings. They could have introduced measures to limit migration in England within EU menbership. Other EU countries do it. England is the second most densely populated countries in Europe because of Westminster centralist policies and borrowing. The UK caused the migration into Europe because of the illegal wars. Blowing the world to bits. It was Westminster unionist polices that caused it. Change their policies. There would be less migration in Europe.
Call Kaye what a waste of time and money. The voters would not vote for it. Honest to goodness who makes up the rubbish.
Should elected members retired at Official retirement age. (plus a few years. 70?) They decide for others should it be applied to them. Quite possibly.
Murdo Fraser is just a troughing loser. The electoral system in Scotland was changed without a mandate. To give unionists unfair advantage. STV and D’Hondt. Re Leslie Evans.
I note from the Rev’s twitter feed that, “not sure” is leading both the Maybot and the Islington Lenin as most people’s first pick for Prime Minister.
Where does “neither of the two” stand in the rankings?
——————–
graeme @ 9.26am
You said:
“I can’t think of one solitary thing she can do now to make this worse than it is now it’s that bad.”
She could always invade Poland.
The loser wins, The electorate can’t get rid of them. Even though they can’t stand the sight of them. The inadequate Democrscy in Scotland as part of the UK. Outvoted 10 to 1.
A huge plate of links, Nana: thanks for all that. May take a day to digest.
@chicmac 12.12: dig your groovy new avatar. Well worth a click/tap to enlarge.
You simply can’t trust any Tory MSP – especially one that looks like Richard Nixon
A very interesting piece in this morning’s Guardian,written by a professor at Princeton University in the USA.
link to theguardian.com
Plan B should be interesting. I read an article on the resubmission of motions in the HoC
in (I think) the Guardian.
The motion requires to be “substantively different” so that the same or nearly the same motion cannot be submitted repeatedly until MP’s give up or die. In this case to run down the clock.
I wonder what those changes will be, or whether a fudge is used to circumvent this requirement.
The Tories also need to remember there is no demand for Brexit in Scotland….
Literally, May wouldn’t be where she is today if it wasn’t for the DUP.
The DUP speak with forked tongues. They want a hard Brexit and were a conduit for dark money being spent in London for the Leave campaign. Yet they say they don’t want a border in NI. Frankly I don’t believe them. I think they’d be quite happy sitting behind a big fence – it’s in their bones. They were the only significant party to oppose the GFA, don’t forget.
The DUP want NI to be integral with an isolationist UK. They want as little to do with the Irish Rep as possible IMO.
And these are the people who are pulling all the strings.
Time for Scotland to cut all strings with WM.
Britain will leave the EU on March twenty nine that is the Tory target and they are on course to achieve it.
There will be no second referendum and no extension of article fifty.
This entire fiasco is to protect the tax havens of the biggest Tory party donors. What happens to the rest of the country is of no concern to these people, the plebs will get by somehow.
The people of England and Wales are harking back to a utopia which never existed.
If, against all the odds, Brexit is simply cancelled, I think the SG should declare a day of National jubilation. Let’s light beacons on hill tops, fly the EU flag from very public flagpole, ring the church bells, get together in town squares, and celebrate deliverance from the Tory threat of disaster.
Hey, it can be a dress rehearsal for Independence Day!
starlaw says:
Despite my flight of fancy at 10:29, I fear you are right.
This morning May and pals appear to be saying, “we will talk about anything as long as it doesn’t involve a threat to delivering Brexit”.
Nana says:
17 January, 2019 at 8:41 am
Does Brexit risk overshadowing EU elections? | Raw Politics
Tony Connelly says
“There are all sorts of minefields on this”.
Video here
link to twitter.com
Thanks as always Nana. Sorry folks, another long one….
Video is spot on, and I think Guy Verhofstadt was saying much the same thing yesterday,
Extending Article 50 is a dead option in my opinion. It goes too far, and not far enough.
The EU will not accommodate any poisoning of the forthcoming EU elections in May by far right toxicity from UK Brexiteers, so any extension if it happens at all will not extend beyond May 23rd, and in pragmatic terms, what can be achieved in an extra 7 weeks after two and half years has simply been squandered?
A delay doesn’t go far enough either. I don’t believe Europe will open the door on Brexit even if a People’s Vote was announced. I think they would need more. To reopen negotiations, the EU in my opinion would want to see the referendum having been already held and a the Remain option victorious…. which is kinda turning into a catch 22. You can extend Brexit deadlines unless there’s no Brexit to extend.
Merely promising to have a people’s vote is, in my opinion, too little to late. There is another factor too, and that is the perception that the Brexit rethink is not prompted for ideological reasons, but crass self interest having realised Brexit is going to hurt. Britain has revealed its darker xenophobic and sociopathic side, and far from welcoming a apparently repentant UK with open arms, I believe the UK’s constant obfuscation will come back to haunt it.
The UK has proven itself to be untrustworthy and sleekit it’s dealings with EU, from threatening war over Gibraltar to the preposterous suggestion that the Irish Backstop issue would be solved if Ireland left the EU too. Remember too the BBC drooling at the prospect of the EU’s collapse with Brexit blazing the trail for other far right disrupters to follow, – France’s La Pen, the Dutch Geert Wilders, and the ADF in Germany. Not so long ago, the UK was going to burn down the house, and yet might now demand to keep its feet at the table. Do we really expect the EU to roll out the red carpet?
Now we come to Scotland. Yes, thank god, Scotland gave itself a lifeline in 2016 by voting remain across every council region Coast to Coast, and that does I think warrant a kinder disposition from Europe, but in my opinion, we are still hostage to the same tipping point.
Here in Scotland need to understand that what Europe wants to see from Scotland is not another messy and truncated EuroRef, but a clear and unambiguous commitment to stay in the EU. We have already decided to stay in Europe. That issue was red hot back in 2016, when we should have stood up for our sovereign constitution. We didn’t, and we’ve let it cool to merely lukewarm.
Don’t be seduced by this pro or anti Brexit referendum. It isn’t our problem. It isn’t Scotland which needs head space for a rethink.The question for Scotland is whether WE determine our future as a SOVEREIGN entity, or we roll over when somebody else does.
Yes, the UK has an existential Brexit dilemma to address that is going critical, and Scotland too has an existential Brexit dilemma to address too that is also going critical,… BUT THEY ARE NOT THE SAME DILEMMA. To safeguard its prosperity, the UK must change it’s mind. To safeguard Scotland’s prosperity, we must stand fast and defend our Constitutional mandate to remain in Europe. It’s not our choice we need to defend or reaffirm, it’s our capacity to choose.
Do not leave ourselves spent after shoring up Brexit. Focus our energies on holding on to our place in Europe. Come on Holyrood… Europe needs a sign from us, a profound and unequivocal commitment, and I can think of nothing more timely or appropriate than for Scotland to actively pursue the unilateral revocation of Scotland’s Article 50 Notice to quit.
If we can revoke our Article 50, it is our sovereign prerogative, and neither Westminster, nor the EU 27 can stop us. We must use the revocation of Article 50 as Scotland’s Backstop on being forced out of Europe against our will, but equally, the same action serves as Scotland’s sovereign VETO on Brexit from within the UK.
Drop this people’s vote. It’s not our fight. Revoke our Article 50.
I get it, nobody wants to see England collapse into dust and flames. But after Scotland is secure in Europe and has a sovereign veto in the UK, we can negotiate with Westminster and Europe ON OUR TERMS, and if we choose to do it, present Scotland as a transitional trading intermediary where Scotland becomes the Istanbul of the North; not just the international but the intercontinental market place where the EU, Americas, the Commonwealth and Scandinavian trading blocks come together in a globally strategic bottleneck. Do the arithmetic. Do the geography. Check the history of Scotland trading with the Baltic’s… It’s the destiny Scotland should always have had. But one step at a time…we NEED that seat inside Europe. Revoke Article 50!
If you don’t stop and look around once in a while, you may miss it.
So where are we exactly ?
May won’t budge an inch on her unacceptable deal.
Corbyn won’t want to help the Tories out of this mess to help promote him in a future election.
Unless the Tories and DUP have a withdrawal agreement that suits them really N.IRELAND they will remain opposed.
Second referendum is off the table because that would set precedent for Scotland in their view.
Oh boy!!
Who will emerge as a saviour? Nobody unless the EU concedes time.
Stock up on tins and toilet roll.
Morning Tinto, as a southern belle once said
“tomorrow is another day”
Scots take heed!!!!
Civil service now on full No Deal alert
link to twitter.com
Socrates McSporran 10.06
That is a good read.
Similar to the Rev’s idea of moving the ‘hard’ border from Ireland to the mainland between Scotland and England.
Not a chance the English establishment would go for it, though.
We’re a world power and all that.
Not a bunch of insulars who need a bespoke arrangement!
Fantastic Breeks @10.37
But just what does it take to get someone in power, in Scotland, to try these ideas and other similar suggestions?
We should be moving on multiple fronts at this pivotal moment and yet we seem stuck outside number ten ,chapping the door to see if Theresa wants to come out to play.
Time is moving fast and so should the Yes movement.
@Dave Oga
8:24am
Irish independent suggesting that Vardaker, Merkel, and Macron have agreed on offering UK a 1 year extension to article 50 should they request it. Will indyref2 be deferred again should that occur?
I’d hope Nicola would call IndyRef2 immediately if that happened. An Indy Scotland could negotiate an arrangement with the EU in parallel with rUK. I wonder who’d negotiate the better deal? ?
It really worrying that so many political pundits and commentators believe that Brexit is a shambles and that nothing is going to plan. The fact is Brexit has been planned and executed from day 1. Everything that has occurred has happened by design in order to understand this you have to understand that the whole idea behind the Brexit negotiations was the FACT that the UK negotiating team were ONLY ever after a No deal exit. Make no mistake Theresa May has never ever been anything other than a hard core out at all cost Brexiteer who has constantly lied and deceived everybody including her own colleagues regarding her Brexit status and position.
Who else would use the excuse that the “British people voted” and we MUST adhere when she has never in her miserable career listened to anybody on anything.
Worse the leader of the opposition is also a hard core get out at any cost Brexiteer he has made that perfectly clear from the beginning and everything that is occurring is nothing more than a dance designed to run down the clock to a no deal exit which leaves Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish Government with the ONLY option now available the immediate imposition of the mandate to call the second Indyref. No more delay no more waiting there is nothing to wait for no reason left to delay nobody is going to change the inevitable course of Brexit because nobody who can wants to and that should be obvious to everybody by now.
We’re too late to save ourselves from being dragged out of the EU in March so we’re going to have to approach the EU to look at the mechanisms of getting back in and that’s something the Scottish Government should be working on NOW! not later or after we’re out.
The dance is over the orchestra has left the building and the fat lady is in bed. Time the Scottish Government woke the fuck up and starting acting instead of dithering.
2 years+ Mundell, the Tories and Labour can be voted out in Scotland. None of them left to cause trouble. Scotland can have another IndyRef. There will be no one to oppose it.
It is up to people to vote. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence.
Ken500
When? When do we vote? After the present mandate has run out? Seriously? You want to put the mandate on the line of another Scottish Parliamentary election knowing that the system is designed to deny anybody an overall majority? A system that can easily take away the pro Indy majority as well?
Jesus Christ.
@Jim McIntosh
I suspect strongly that it will be delayed I also believe delaying it over that period would be a horrendous mistake. Think how much damage the Tories could do to the Scottish Parliament in a year. Think about the time they would have to get legislation through the Parliament that can prevent any Scottish Government calling for an indy ref.
If the UK Government wasn’t so tied up with Brexit right now they would have closed the Scottish parliament down years ago.
Jim McIntosh,
I do not have the political savy to hurry our FM towards the Indyref.
Do you?
I want Scotland to be Independent many lifetimes ago, but this is where we are.
Hold.
Keep the faith.
The one party who live for the Independence of Scotland know what they doing 🙂
Just haud on =)
And same to you Mike =)
Just haud on!
@Mike
The probable emasculation of the Scottish Parliament during that time is another reason to call IndyRef as soon as anything close to a year’s delay is agreed.
Fluffy Mundel on Radio Shortbreadthis morning
Advising that May is talking to all party leaders
With nothing ruled out.
He then goes on to say that theTories will not
Consider a 2nd Referendum and they won’t take
Remove a No Deal scenario off the table??
That explains why the UK and Brexit are a complete mess
“Irish independent suggesting that Vardaker, Merkel, and Macron have agreed on offering UK a 1 year extension to article 50 should they request it.”
Extremely doubtful. (other member states would have to agree – just not going to happen IMHO)
Effijy, May’s new favourite witterings are around ‘listening’.
A latter day version of kicking the can down the road.
Zero promises about acting on what she hears.
The maybot will, I expect, come back with an identical deal, claim it is vastly improved (what with all that listening and all) and barge on with her very own version of catastrophe for the folk of the Uk (but a Grrrreat Deal for her Tax Havening chums)
Which is why we are ready for Indyref for Scotland =)
Hold and keep the faith.
Our folk know what they are doing =)
Just haud on =)
“Make no mistake Theresa May has never ever been anything other than a hard core out at all cost Brexiteer…”
Well, she appeared to support Remain in the EU-Ref.
“Well, she appeared to support Remain in the EU-Ref”
As did Ruth Davidson (lol)
People can vote the unionists out of power in Scotland within 2year+. If that is what they want. Within 2years+ ? EU elections, Holyrood elections, UK Elections and council elections. They would be no unionists in power to oppose. Then have another Indy Ref anytime, from now till then and after. Just vote them out. There would be no one to oppose.
Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get everyone you know to do the same. More people could join the SNP and help. Donate, canvass and campaign. If that is what people want. It is easy just vote and get everyone else you know to do the same.
Plan B vote on 29th Jan.
Just more can kicking.
Given all the red lines plus ruling out common sense, Plan B is bound yo be like Plan A. Also, it took two years to agree ‘A’ with the EU, if ‘B’ hasn’t been agreed it’s worthless.
All smoke and mirrors to make sure Brexit, any Brexit, happens on cue.
What would make Plan B worthwhile if it were simply Plan A plus a commitment to take it to voters as this plan versus remain, and no other options. That won’t happen. Too sensible. Too democratic.
@Mike says: 17 January, 2019 at 11:42 am:
” … I suspect strongly that it will be delayed I also believe delaying it over that period would be a horrendous mistake.”
But do you really believe, Mike. How much of the real history of, “The United Kingdom”, do you know? The old saying is that History repeats itself and it is true.
Leading up to the Treaty of Union there was a London Scot called, William Paterson. He was employed by Sir Robert Harley an English parliamentarian and the English Government’s Spy master. Now in those times the royalty had much more to do with running the English Parliament and the Kingdom Of England were much impoverished due to what is known as, “The English Transportation Acts”, and these acts had involved the English Kingdom in wars throughout Europe and the World at large.
In short they had massive national debts due to fighting these wars. The acts also led to the American War of Independence. Now this London Scot was chosen to instigate a subscription scheme to bail out the Crown/Parliament. Mainly by subscriptions from the many wealthy English Mercantile Marine owners who, obviously, had grown wealthy due to those Navigational Acts.
In short that London Scot’s scheme led to the creation of the private Company, The Bank of England.
Then, a little later that same London Scot was in Edinburgh setting up the disastrous Darien Expedition that bankrupted, NOT Scotland, but the wealthy Scots landlords who were also the Scots parliamentarians and that is what led to them signing away the people of Scotland’s birth-right by the Treaty of Union.
This against the wishes of the people of Scotland who were rioting against the treaty on the streets. Now we have a Scottish Parliament and the people have elected the SNP into power with a mandate to regain Scottish independence and they have brought us to the brink of gaining that independence. They did so because they know exactly what they are doing.
Now prior to 1706/7 the English had undercover agent working within the Scottish Parliament and they succeeded in getting the Scottish parliamentarians to sign away our birth-right into the hand of Westminster.
So here today we have people like you attempting to do the very same thing. There are unionist forces constantly at work. The unionist political parties all working together and using the Westminster funded SMSM to propagate propaganda and to attempt to destroy the reputations of leading indy political figures, including the FM herself.
And here are you, and your cohorts, beavering away here on Wings in an effort to get the FM/SG/SNP to jump before the time is right. It looks to me vey like Westminster is attempting to have history repeat itself yet again.
Good read…
link to nytimes.com
Oh! And BTW Mike. Bear this in mind – if it is good enough for you and the other likely suspects to accuse the FM/SG/SNP of acting against the people of Scotland’s best interests when they have mostly spent their entire adult lives devoted to the cause – it is equally good enough for Wingers to accuse the FM/SG/SNPs accusers of acting against Scotland’s best interests.
It is also true that it is far more likely that Westminster has spooks infiltrate the movement than to not have undercover agents seeded into the movement.
I’d be absolutely amazed if they had not done so long ago.
The lunatic government are going to call up the army reserves to handle no deal.
link to mirror.co.uk
Galamcennalath,
I liked your flight of fancy @ 10.29 🙂
Patrick Harvie totally skewered both labour and the tories at FMQ’s for using all their questions on Alex Salmond, considering events at WM this week and brexit disaster coming soon.
He then asked Nicola if, when she said about outlining the way forward for independence “within the next few weeks”, would she be doing that even if Article 50 was extended ?
Nicola : “Yes”.
Pretty clear, even certain folks on here can understand that surely ?
Given that you usually comment on sample size, surprised you highlight this one.
Post is below your usual high standard.
Red and blue Tories in the Scottish Parliament colluding to divert attention from the mess of Theresa May’ Brexit by going on about Alex Salmond at PMQs. Wonder if the MSM will call them out about it.
Jings! Too old to vote maybe. Radio shortbread ‘Your call’
Which reminded me of the final straw when in the Oban harbour restaurant about 2016 I suggested to my older parents-in-law 80+ that at their age (and mine) Scottish Independence one way or the other would not affect our lives one bit and pointed to their two great grandchildren at the table. Why did you vote NO! He was wearing his proud Scots kilt and jaicket and sgian-dubh.
“It’s the young ones who will make Scotland what it will be”.
I saw their Unionist eyes widen as they took in what I had said they were flummoxed. Lucky we had just finished the coffee.
I knew I had gone too far but …Ye ken… when your angry you say things that are,on reflection, best not said. 🙁
We have never exchange words since that night.
I did get a hug from one of the children aged 13yrs then which cheered me up. She’s SNP through and through and raring to get a vote. 🙂
PS:
Heard Jeremy a while back on the car radio. His speech touching all the bases but not promising anything either.
The Article A50 has to be delayed as a minimum for anything else to happen but not looking good.
Can I get to vote soon? 🙁
I’d love to be a fly on the wall of the room where the Brexit talks are being held with them all, other than Corbyn, arguing over their ”red lines.”
Nicola Sturgeon’s (SNP) red lines are remaining in the Customs Union and Single Market. If not we’re bailing out.
Big T has three sitting days to come up with a new proposal. In other words she can yakety yak all she likes over the weekend but will have to announce her Plan B on Monday 21st January 2019. Will anything have changed?
link to cnbc.com
Clegg spewing his obvious hatred of SNP to toodle-oo-the noo..
“I cant see any tory PM ALLOWING or GIVING CONSENT, to a 2nd independence referendum this side of 2021 Holyrood election” (yada yada-tories great result in Scotland…more slavers) then this, “the 2021 Holyrood election then becomes a referendum on hilding a referendum”!!
……..
How little self awareness or the real world can one fandang have ?
These feckers have a major shock coming.
The *journalistic* chums this morning included David Clegg of the Daily Record who even congratulated himself on Richard Leonard repeating the words David Clegg had put into his mouth
Oh and Mrs May will refuse a section 30 order on Independence so that’s it till 2021 then says David Clegg who doesn’t want to mention his newspaper the Daily Record is right at the centre of the leaked allegations of imropriety within the civil service enabling the smearing of political figures in Scotland
Has Neil Findlay got a direct line to David Cleggs house or are these things just cooked up at the Labour Party Daily Record meetings
To me I would take all the SNP MPs from WM, and only talk to the EU now.
David Clegg on Beeb Scot, is this not in the realms of conflict of interest?
Why should this individual get to comment on BBC on a controversial topic that he/ his paper is centrally involved with?
Famous Beeb neutrality my a…
Machiavellianism and Brexit
A Cabinet Office source tells me today No. 10 is considering agreeing a second referendum with three choices: No Deal Brexit, May’s Deal or No Brexit. It would be by alternative vote, ie you rate your preferences 1, 2. The thinking is that the first round might go No Deal 23, May’s Deal 37, No Brexit 40. The second round would then go May’s Deal 60, No Brexit 40….
link to craigmurray.org.uk
@Peffers
And as usual we can rely on you to offer nothing but demented in answer to a serious point and issue.
I honestly believe you have some serious mental health issues you need to deal with paranoia not being the least of them.
Nothing I have ever posted could in any way shape or form be described as accusing the Scottish Government of acting against the people of Scotland. That would be your demented diseased mind coming to conclusions based on interpretation only you could possibly fathom.
Go bile yer fucking heid ya roaster.
@Proud Cybernat?
“Well, she appeared to support Remain in the EU-Ref.”
What has she appeared to support since the vote?
Do you honestly believe for 1 nano second she is working her Brexit strategy based on what she believes the people of the UK want? Really the Tory Government is working its strategy on the basis that they want to deliver for the majority of people in the UK? That’s what we’re meant to believe?
There will be an awful lot of Daily Record/news media users, in for quite the shock when Nicola calls an indyref and dares Treeza to refuse a S.30.
Treeza knows for sure Nicola will have pre-planned for such an event as treeza simply repeating ‘now is not the time’.
And she has done, as anyone paying attention to recent legal cases will know.
Any delay to a S.30 request will be seen as a breach of the Treaty of Union as doing so is to subjugate Scots Sovereign will (2016 mandate given to SNP and affirmed by Holyrood) brexit is a breach of Sovereign Scots expressed will and as such, the Treaty of Union.
Remember when folk said the Continuity Bill was Win-Win ? This was one of the Wins, Scots Law was subjugated, more than once.
Just because WM used sleekit means to subjugate Scots Law, that does not make it any less subjugated.
Pretty sure that the document protecting Scots Law in perpetuity, does not caveat that commitment with “unless WM uses sleekit use of WM procedures”.
WM reminds me of the playground bully, and the smaller person in front of them says, “stop being nasty to me please”
The Bully says, “Why should i, i am bigger than you”
At this point the bully finds out his ‘victim’ has been taking martial art self defence classes.
Does the bully risk a blootering humiliation by swinging a punch, or back off and seek a way out the situation ?
Either way, the ‘wee guy’ wins.
It’s funny when you think about it but most of the people who buy the Daily Record only buy it for the football and the horses on the back pages and as long as it says something unpleasant in the banner headline on the front about the SNP they’re happy, the rest of the paper lines budgie cages in the same way as the Sun newspaper
People spend money on papers they don’t actually read
and that tells you much about those people and a lot more about the people who produce newspapers that are intended for litter before they buy them
Nobody reads the message on disposable coffee cups
1) “Make no mistake Theresa May has never ever been anything other than a hard core out at all cost Brexiteer…”
2) “What has she appeared to support since the vote?”
Compare your two statements (above). Surely you can see the inconsistency in your own statements? That is all I was pointing out to you.
Mike’s abusive comment at 1.26pm has been reported to the Rev for foul and abusive personal abuse to a poster (robert peffers).
mac got the boot for similair comments, so not looking good for mike. 1 2 3 ….Awww.
As Ian Blackford warned the Tories in his speech Scotlands claim of right sailed through the HOC unnoticed so they can refuse a section 30 order till they’re blue in the face but by acknowledging the claim of right in the Westminster Parliament they gave Scotland the legal right to law and as we’re still in the EU that means international law which the UK are signatories to
Wee Joanna Cherry QC MP will be all up in their business again and they won’t like it
See we have 3 cheeks oh the same 77th brigade arse posting now.
@Geeo
You can only laugh at the strategy that comes from banning pro Indy support from Pro Indy blogs.
Its this level of self harming that lost us the 2014 referendum.
House of Lords debate ‘Brexit and the Union’ starting 5.30 this afternoon on Parliament Channel. What will they be cooking up I wonder.
What makes me smile is when one of the ‘cheeks’ then tries to justify his ‘indy’ credentials – what a buffoon!
Its not only tick tock on Brexit but also on the mandate to call a second Indy ref yet folk prefer to believe in a 77th Brigade of fantasy goblins under the bed instead.
Tick Tock.
Unionists Trolling the FM today don’t seem to understand how economies work in that as they understand it there’s not enough working age population to raise enough tax to pay for the country when Scotland becomes Independent
If that’s the case all these Trolls better get hopping round the world to tell all the other 195 countries of this new inciteful economic news that they are not surviving because everybody doesn’t have a job
Apparently they think everybody in England works and pays enormous amounts of tax to subsidise the known UNIVERSE
God save the Queen chaps, Ooh! she doesn’t have a job either, how does England manage
@sassenach
I smile at somebody using the term “Sassenach” as a pro Indy credential. Only somebody who would campaign to have Brig a Doon made a tourist trap would come up with that.
@ geeo,
Am I correct in thinking, no S30 means, May and the ‘English Parliament’ would have to keep their noses out of indyref. ie. no activists or MP’s being bussed into Scotland from rUK?
If true then no S30 would have it’s advantages.
Its this level of self harming that lost us the 2014 referendum.
YES lost IndyRef1 because:
1) Media. BBC & MSM were largely anti-indy and did not give the YES side equal or fair coverage.
2) Project Fear. British Labour in Scotland telling our pensioners that they would lose their pension if they voted YES was just one big fat LIE among countless others. You wouldn’t be able to use the £, Oil running out, etc.
3) Breaking Purdah. NO Campaign leaders promised more powers for the Scottish Parliament (The Vow) if we voted to stay with the UK. They did this when NO Campaign saw they were heading for defeat in clear breach of the campaign rules.
4) YES Campaign Currency option became a hostage to fortune.
Those were the main reasons YES lost from what I witnessed.
@Proud Cybernat
What the fuck are you havering about? What inconsistency?
I have said she has ALWAYS been a hard core no deal Brexiteer pointing out that she has “APPEARED” to indicate this fact since the vote is hardly a contradiction is it?
It doesn’t contradict the FACT that I pointed out that she has been hiding her intent even from her own party and that the APPEARENCE since the vote is removing any doubt I ever had.
Christ what is wrong with you people?
@Proud Cybernat
In other words a campaign to divide opinion then?
Wibble wibble wibble.
The 77th Brigade are a real arm of the British military with responsibiliy for the monitoring of digital output both domestic and foreign and as the SNP have been deemed a threat to the British state they do monitor all output from Scotland on Independence matters, it’s their job
There was a whole programme on STV dedicated to the work they do in protecting the British state and co-operating with law enforcement throughout these Islands in the prevention of terrorism and other unlawful matters
They read and monitor everything, it’s a fact, nobody’s making it up
Shinty
No s30 means UDI. Kind of where we’ve always been heading since the result of an Indyref didn’t appear to be a foregone conclusion.
Remember where you heard it first.
Wings plan soars:
link to theguardian.com
@Dr Jim
And because they exist they are everybody you cant agree with?
I have said she has ALWAYS been a hard core no deal Brexiteer pointing out that she has “APPEARED” to indicate this fact since the vote is hardly a contradiction is it?
The evidence, such as it is, shows TMay supported Remain during EU-Ref. You are suggesting this was fake support, that TMay “…has ALWAYS been a hard core no deal Brexiteer…”
Well, all you have to do is provide the evidence that TMay, when presenting herself as a Remainer during the EU-Ref campaign, was actually a closet Brexiteer. Where’s the hard evidence that supports your assertion?
FMQs today
A SCOTTISH Parliament full of MSPs owing their allegiance to another country and another countries political parties. 3 BRITISH (English) parties and 2 SCOTTISH parties. A BRITISH Presiding Officer.
Not one of the British parties raised a question about the biggest crisis to affect Scotland for a long long time Brexit. Tory and Labour embarrass themselves with nonsense questions about who when did Sturgeon speak to about a smear campaign created by the Britnats themselves. If you vote to stay in the U.K. that is what you get. British parties ignore the real crisis and rattle on about a made up smear campaign against an EX politician.
Quotes from Clegg Daily Record:
“Leonard took a slightly more sophisticated approach.” Ha ha that is beyond that plonker. It’s a wonder he didn’t ask how many pencils would be available on each desk during each of the enquiries.
“this is the biggest crisis the SNP has faced in 40 years”. Laughable nonsense from a desperate BRITNAT
” SNP civil war” more nonsense from a desperate Britnat.
Clegg was continually fed his lines by fellow Britnat Taylor ” toodle oh the no”. It’s the BBC way – wall to wall Britnat coverage in a Scottish parliament.
“No s30 means UDI.”
Can you back that up? Where can I find information on that? Thanks.
Here’s the state of play.
Theresa cannot offer customs union or single market, since they imply freedom of movement, and most in her party would reject it, since they are full-on racists, and don’t like ‘foreigners’. So that is completely out. Therefore she has to work with the current deal, so Labour Libdems, SNP greens, plaid cymru, the DUP and many in her party would reject it.
According to one government bod on telly an hour or so ago, the thinking is, all they need is to get the DUP on board, since it is they who are calling the shots regarding the Irish backstop. If the DUP said they were happy with the backstop, then it would be hard for any other Tories to argue against it. So that is their focus – how to bribe the DUP.
So, what that all then leads to is this, in order to get the DUP on board, Theresa would need the EU to remove or significantly undermine the entire meaning of the backstop. The EU is not going to do that. Not now, not ever. So, we are back where we started, with either the current deal, no brexit or just full-on hard no deal brexit.
Labour don’t want an election – they do read the polls too. They know they won’t win.
DUP don’t want an election, since they may lose seats, due to their rabid pro brexit stance, when most in N.Ireland actually voted to remain.
Tories don’t want an election, since they would almost certainly get hammered in Scotland, making an all out majority even harder.
Tories will NEVER accept a second referendum, since that would damage their core hard right wingers and voters. In addition, they THINK it would mean Scotland could have indyref2 – although that is going ahead anyway.
So, in essence, what Theresa is currently doing with all her machinations, is simply running the clock down. She will know all of the above. She knows EXACTLY what she is doing. It is nothing but game play.
In all of this, their is nothing, absolutely nothing at all for Scotland.
Therefore, there is no longer any reason for delay, the Scottish Government need to call the indy referendum as a matter of priority. Nothing is going to change at westminster. Best case scenario, her own tories will, as the clock runs down, be forced to accept Theresa’s deal. Worst case, hard, no-deal brexit by default.
There is no longer ANY reason for delay. Nothing is going to change.
Anybody in the SNP leadership currently thinking ‘talks’ are worthwhile is indulging in some very serious dream-like wishful thinking.
The fact that a legitimate political party with the vote of the electorate and the government of a country can be deemed to be a threat when other political parties are not deemed as such must be monitored you don’t find disconcerting or at least undemocratically and selectively intrusive
He’s one of those guys who makes big statements like Church of Scotland should not commenting on Brexit but should have on Independence when he had so many failed attempts at even getting elected. Plus his grammar and punctuation is shocking which annoys me too. Murdo maybe just give it a rest for a while.
“No s30 means UDI”
NO IT DOESN’T.
Drone over Gatwick, drone over Heathrow, drone at FMQ in Holywood. Used car salesman (failed).
Only enlightening moment, the groans.
@Proud Cybernat
The ONLY possible evidence that could indicate Theresa May voted remain would be a copy of her ballot paper after she filled it in. Do you have one?
Theresa May is a pathological liar. She has consistently lied her arse off during the term of her career as Home Secretary and Prime Minister.
So how on earth can you claim that there is a shred of actual evidence available that PROVES she supported remain when all that exists is her own word.
@shinty re: S.30
An indyref with no S.30 would indeed mean no interference from ANYONE outside those in Scotland.
UNited Nations charters, state this in here.
link to un.org
…….
As for the treeza mantra “now is not the time”….
Same UN charters have something to say about that as well
……
3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.
………
Uk gov is a signatory to said charter.
I would go further, and suggest that, since all 3 unionist parties in Scotland are agents of WM, then there is a conflict with the UN charter which does not allow political interference from WM in a non S.30 indyref as they would be working for the political machine of another country and are known to have promoted against independence FOR that outside agency.
No idea how that would work tho, but interesting idea.
@Proud Cybernat
So tell me what other path do we take without an S30 that doesn’t involve UDI?
Mike@2.07pm
“Christ what is wrong with you people”
Who are “you people”.
It would be nice if you toned down the language a bit.
Mike @2.11 pm
“No S30 means UDI.” Using the term UDI helps the Britnats. As an independence supporter I am sure you do not want to do that. Can I suggest terminate the Treaty of Union 1707 as a more accurate comment and one that does not help the Britnats.
@Geeo
Just for starters Israel the USA Russia China North Korea an several African states have been ignoring UN charters since the UN existed so its not as if ignoring UN charters is not on the cards for the UK.
A little update on Hitachi withdrawing from the nuclear deal.
Mariko Oi on twitter a Japanese journalist posts the interview she did with the CEO of Hitachi in 2016, where he made it very clear that Hitachi would reconsider it’s investment if the UK left the EU.
They are writing off £2 billion so far invested.
The stuff about failure to agree financial and commercial terms is just a smokescreen.
No section 30 order does not mean UDI, that’s a mistaken conclusion
No section 30 order means if a referendum is to be carried out it would not be accepted as legal by the Westminster parliament and would not have to be upheld
However…the Scottish parliament has the legal right to carry out as many referendums on any subject they so choose, but in the case of section 30 refusal the route to appeal to law is clear and that will again be a choice of the Scottish government
Should the Scottish government proceed to law then as signatories to the United Nations charter on freedom of self dtermination the UK would be forced to abide by any decision of the ECJ and UN justices
Any last words mike ?
Make them semi legible perhaps ?
@Cubby
Helps the Britnats with what? ONLY the Britnats can cause of avoid a UDI. Its been the Britnats who have instigated every UDI throughout the history of the BritNat Empire by denying a Democratic route to Independence.
@Geeo
Oh bless it actually thinks its a moderator now.
@Dr Jim
Since when has fascism ever respected the rule of Law & legitimacy. The very definition of Fascism involves the suppression of Law legality and legitimacy.
Do you think the UK state is beyond fascism? Seriously?
Scotland cannot have a unilateral declaration of independence, since it is already a country in its own right, currently within a political union with England. What would actually happen is Scotland would rescind from the treaty of union of 1707, which either of the two signatories can do, at any time.
Anyway, as Iain Blackford made clear this week, in the HoC, Westminster fully accepts the Scottish claim of right. To paraphrase ‘It is the sovereign RIGHT of Scots to freely choose the nature of their government’. Nowhere does it suggest that permission is required by London first.
geeo says
“An indyref with no S.30 would indeed mean no interference from ANYONE outside those in Scotland.
UNited Nations charters, state this in here.
link to un.org ”
——
Thanks for that, I was fairly sure I was on the right track – but ma heid’s about to explode with all the shite doing it’s rounds 🙂
@Mike
If you are indeed an Independence supporter Mike that’s great and fine and I completely understand if you feel you’re being monstered but the best way to express your opinions is either to make sure of your facts or just state it’s your best guess and that’s OK because we all make mistakes, I’ve made loads of clangers and nobody hates me (I hope) but when or if you’re guessing at something mate just include that so folks know
Anxiousness is something we all suffer from, it’s not a crime
@Robert Louis
Ok so what is the process and procedure available to the Scottish Government for terminating the Act of Union and why hasn’t the Scottish Government simply done it? Surely they had a mandate when they returned 56 out of 59 MPs to Westminster or when they won a majority within the Scottish Parliament?
Let me tell you something about the UK there is no such thing as “What should be” There is only “What will be by decree”.
@Dr Jim
Good advice that you should take yourself before passing on.
Shinty at 233pm,
All of the info regarding the UN is very useful.
Can anybody on here outline how quickly an indy referendum could be held? Mainly in terms of emergency legislation if required, and necessary organisation.
I love the simple notion that its possible to approach fascism and point out that it has an obligation towards legality legitimacy morality and cooperation.
Trumpesque.
@Robert Louis
With or without the UK Gov on board?
Proud Cybernat @2.04 pm
I agree with your list of reasons and also the order of importance you placed them in.
The only point I would add is in connection with no. 4 Breaking purdah. I would change the heading to The Infamous vow and in addition to the points you made add that it went against the Edinburgh Agreement as it introduced a devo max option ( under the heading of vote no) which Cameron had previously ruled out. This devo max option was conveniently not defined as it would have been if it had properly been a separate option in the referendum. In summary, last minute cheating, breaking the rules of purdah and the Edinburgh Agreement.
Finally the extraordinarily high level of postal votes could be added as no. 5.
Thanks to those involved, we now who the trolls are, my input don’t engage.
@ Dr Jim.
My opinion is that it will end up in ECJ( if we are still in the EU) or at the UN.
It will be used as a delaying tactic by Westminster, whether they agree or not, terms on a Section 30 order.
Westminster will use the same waffle and arrogance displayed during the EU negotiations and I have no doubt Scotland will have to involve the UN ans the EU.
Westminsters attitude to Scotland will be no different to its embedded attitude to Ireland, you know that one expressed recently about Ireland not knowing its place.
However Scotland has the very potent weapons of control of the Crown and Scots law.
77th brigade seems busy today. Must be getting feart.
@ Mike
By saying *passing on* are you hoping for my imminant death or something else
You see how words can be construed
Doesn’t look like MAYhem is winning many friends in Germany.
A look-in from the outside:
link to spiegel.de
wull2,
Totally agree. Just keep passing on, when they are encountered.
@Dr jim
What I don’t see is relevance to anything.
Mike looking to go out on a blaze of dribbling nonsense…haha..gaun yersel wee mikey…!!
@Golfnut
Scotland would have to declare UDI before it can approach the UN on the matter of having its Independence declaration ignored don’t you think?
Graf at 250pm,
I think that is actually part of the issue, the current Westminster Government have no friends in the EU (aside from Farage – but nobody else likes him). I do not doubt that had they approached talks with a better attitude, they may well have been able to secure more of what they sought to achieve for Westminster.
I think Theresa May and her right wing racist cabal of brexiteers will not be remembered well in years to come.
@Geeo
And what happens when I don’t go out at all? How will you look then?
So all the media controlled from London could be banned without a s30!
Revoke Article 50 unilaterally and Scotland has an instant Constitutional Backstop against being removed from Europe, and an internationally recognised sovereign veto inside the UK. Both conditions are entirely lawful and legitimate, but neither condition is dependent or conditional upon securing a popular majority, nor are they compromised by critical time constraints the way a referendum now is.
Such a position would allow Scotland to remain in Europe, veto objectionable Westminster legislation, clip the wings of the BBC and wider Propagandists, and forever thereafter pick and choose the timing, or indeed necessity, for an IndyRef at leisure.
The only issue of critical importance currently is securing our sovereign failsafe BEFORE it is rendered academic to Brexit because we have already allowed Brexit to occur.
The SNP could then take 20 hours or 20 years perfecting their strategy for Independence, safely cocooned inside a sovereign Scotland that remains in the EU by its own volition, and can defend its UK interests by its own volition, and terminate the Treaty of Union by its own volition.
Unilaterally revoke Article 50. See how much BBC airtime the SNP gets after that.
Robert Louis
17 January, 2019 at 2:17 pm
“Therefore, there is no longer any reason for delay”
I, however, now think there is every reason to delay.
There is a significant difference in how soft no’s (and even strong no’s) are going to look at the alternatives available when the only alternatives left they will have in front of their nose are Scotland’s independence vs a catastrophic no deal than when you have only a remote possibility of “no deal” (notice how quickly tories, labour and even DUP are “rejecting” no deal for the gallery, because they know exactly what this means in Scotland), but you still have also the possibility of a People’s vote, some sort of deal that Theresa May will “agree” at the last minute with the other parties and the EU and of course the idea that Westminster MPs can even actually unilaterally revoke A50 and revert the whole nonsense is still lingering around.
Bear in mind that an awful lot of people is still in denial about this and they are hoping that at the last minute something is going to be sorted out, “as always is”.
So no, the way to secure a victory for indyref is by allowing the tories and labour to walk themselves into their own cul de sac and to the very end of it from where they cannot come out. They are walking into that cul de sac just fine, but there are still some options where they are standing, so let them walk a little bit further.
I never had a doubt that the tories were after a “no deal” since day 1. The minute I learnt about the EU tax avoidance new laws I thought this would be the case. Reading the draft for the potential trade agreement with USA that Hannan wrote and learning that, allegedly, the only thing this deal needs is to be signed, I knew “no dea”l is what they were after – The current EU withdrawal agreement does not allow for such a deal with USA because of the food, environment etc standards.
It is clear to me also that deep down, giving the choice between the backstop or “no deal”, Arlene’s dinosaur deniers would jump at the “no deal” option to force a hard border and separate for once and for all NI from the Republic of Ireland.
As per labour, I am not sure what to believe. Or these hypocrites are in the pockets of the English establishment and the tax havens or they are pursuing some kind of idiotic post-soft neoliberalism utopia while wedging the door open for the biggest neoliberal beast of them all: corporate America.
So no, there are still too many options lingering around and these snake oil salesmen can sneak out yet. All of those options bar “no deal” have to be pushed out of the table before the people of Scotland can be faced with the reality of what brexit really means and be in a position to really appreciate what independence for Scotland really offers.
England stands to lose control of Scotland’s precious assets, assets and revenues that are propping up its economy. I think we should expect a crushing interference from the English establishment on indyref. What we saw in 2014 was nothing compared with what we are going to see in this one – they started with around 77% support for the union last time. Their starting point now is much, much closer to 50% this time and progressively decreasing, so they do not have an awful lot of room for maneuvering.
Let’s be ready for more promises of cosmic devo max, an invigorated Sewell convention with a different word than “normally” in the text but with the same effect, some Barnet contraption on steroids, mahoosive federalism and other newly generated synthetic flavours of devolution.
We need every vote we can get, so if this means that we cannot trigger Indyref until we see the white of their eyes, so be it.
@ Cubby re postal voting.
Apparently, Stirling are actively encouraging people to vote by post. Lost the link, but it looked like a ‘Yes’ activist scheme.
I thought we wanted to reduce postal voting (especially for indyref).
Mike:-
Try “I believe” or “I understand”, etc.
That way, posters will respect your views & will also prevent your making yourself a bit of a laughing stock..
Even john major said, no nation should be held irrevocably in a union against its will. These latter day tories are absolute dictators. Get out of this rabid fascist union Scotland before any civil rights you have are totally eradicated.
Jesus!
Are the 77th paying by the word now?
@Golfnut 2.46pm
It’s as good a theory as any and it’s what Westminster does, they do like to kick the can as far down the road as they can
Of course Mrs May doesn’t want to be the PM who made a hash of the EU and lost Scotland and saw the reunification of Ireland all at the one go, WOW what a legacy that would be, so playing for time till the responsibility is someone else’s is par for the course
She’ll be hoping she can avoid everything just like she did when she was Home Secretary (hiding on the stairs for six years) so maybe it’ll be left to one of her other chums like Gove because even when there’s a GE Corbyn still doesn’t look like he can win so it’ll be Tories again and you know what they say about previous governments *they cannot bind the hands of subsequent governments* so it matters nothing what’s agreed now
My guess like yours is that our team probably need to be ready when the last T is crossed and I dotted on the withdrawal agreement or the No Deal agreement whichever one we get thrown at us
Just to reinforce my 77th Brigade credentials let me declare the following
Conservative Tories Vile shite
Labour Tories Lying shite
Lib Dem Tories Irrelevant shite
UKIP Fascists scum sucking vile shite
SNP progressive compassionate caring competent hard working and Scotlands ONLY hope of a future that isn’t Fascist self harming murderous and run on patronage privilege and deprivation.
Greens An unknown that hasn’t had a decent chance to shine or prove themselves because the braindead in England and Wales don’t recognise them as the ONLY progressive alternatives they have to Tory dominance.
Don’t know what else to say to further promote my transparent 77th Brigade credentials.
@Sandy
Ah is that because everybody else uses these terms?
Mike @ 15:04,
Why do you persist in filling threads with irrelevant dross like this? (Not to mention the occasional intemperate rudeness.) Just make your point and quit harping-on about it, please. Not everyone will agree, that’s just The Scottish Way.
“So how on earth can you claim that there is a shred of actual evidence available that PROVES she supported remain when all that exists is her own word.”
No – you don’t get to turn this around. I said she “appeared” to support Remain and I said that because there are many photos of her campaigning for Remain and of her even giving statements in support of Remain. So yes, during the EU-Ref campaign she “appeared to support Remain” – which is all I said.
Your claim, however, is that she was “…ALWAYS…” a Brexiteer, suggesting her apparent and evidenced support for Remain during the 2016 EU-Ref was merely a ‘front’. Your claim is an absolute statement without qualification. So, where’s your evidence to support your absolute, unqualified claim that TMay effectively lied in her EU-Ref stance? Let’s see it.
“So tell me what other path do we take without an S30 that doesn’t involve UDI?”
Once again, you do not get to turn the question around. You made the statement:
“No s30 means UDI”
I would like to know how you came to that conclusion? On what basis are you saying that and what evidence do you have to support this statement?
Thanks.
@ Dr Jim.
Yep, no long to go now.
@ Mike
No, Scotland isn’t a colony or even a region, though Westminster like us to believe both.
From Grousebeater’s twitter
link to twitter.com
Murdo “Nobody votes for him” Fraser makes a noise.
ZZZZZZZZZ
SNPx2.
Tick Tock
I wouldn’t get over confident wee mikey, the Rev is a busy lad, takes a wee while to get round to dealing with your types.
But deal with them he does.
Tick
Tock
@Robert J Sutherland
Every point I make is challenged with ignorance and distain by the same commentators who offer no actual argument that’s able to refute a single word and here you are pretending you don’t realise that. Kind of feels like Im the one being trolled here.
Mike @ 2-11pm
“Remember where you heard it first.”
Mike is a son of Rock, and I claim my doubloons!!
@Geeo
Lets see what you have to say about it tomorrow.
Tick tock.
@golfnut
Scotland is a subordinate concern to the UK state and nobody is going to tell it different least of all people like you and me.
Mike, @ 3.05pm.
You’re making a fool of yourself again &, I suspect, many others here think likewise. Manners are one of the few things that cost nothing.
I can imagine you in a bar discussion. You’d put Brewer & Neill in the shade.
@Shinty
He who hingeth aboot getteth Hee Haw
That’s magic!
@Proud Cybernat
Why are you persisting in this gibbering worthless pedantic manner of argument?
Look at the reality the Facts.
Theresa may has the authority and means to cancel Brexit not only that she has the perfect excuse and reason to do so but instead of following her “REMAIN” stance she chooses to wilfully take us to the HARDEST OF ALL BREXIT OPTIONS by including an ONLY ALTERNATIVE that NOBODY SUPPORTS OR WANTS KNOWINGLY. She accepts no other path or alternative that might give us a softer Brexit option.
She is driving the train of no deal Brexit full throttle and delaying anybody who is trying to apply the brakes until the clock runs down and according to you she’s doing it because she believes in remaining in the EU.
Are you truly this stupid or incapable of acknowledging any reality that makes you look wrong in your arguments?
@Sandy
And you think telling me Im making a fool of myself is polite? Or is it hypocrisy?
FMQs today. BREXIT SHAMBLES.
Patrick Harvie the Co-Convenor of the Scottish Green Party was the only Opposition Leader addressing the real issues threatening Scotland and the people who live and work here.
On Youtube—-just scroll along to 23:56.
link to tinyurl.com
A lot of thoughts and opinions.
A lot of pent up feelings.
Frustration perhaps? Impatience?
“Go now Nicola! She’s feart! She was never for independence!”
Come on. Really?
When you take emotion out of it and consider if you had the verified information she has would you pull the trigger?
You cannot answer that as we don’t have the information she has. If you had to make the call with what is at stake would you? Its easy for us as we wont carry the can if this is called wrong.
We assume that the polls showing the impact of Brexit will work in our favour, and hopefully they will.
But remember fear is a great tool, we know that well enough after 2014. What if the fear of being out of the EU AND the UK scares more people? And that line WILL be used.
Too many in this country it seems didn’t rate our ability to manage for ourselves, too many thought they had too much to lose, too many too comfortable with their situation to risk change.
What has changed? I mean in a way that people can feel. How are people being adversely affected by Brexit?
Not many. Yet.
If Indy ref2 is called now what are the choices?
Stay in the UK? Is the UK in or out of the EU? What type of exit is there? Maybe nothing is going to change? Brexit may yet be cancelled.
Independence?
Right now Brexit isn’t real for many, they don’t read sites like these so may still believe all will be well so why change?
Why risk Independence?
But when Brexit hits.
Shortages in food, medicine tariffs on exports hurting jobs, extra fees on holidays, no ehic cover,inflation, etc etc etc
Then it becomes real.
Then people will begin to look for an alternative,
Then when people are told that Scotland will get into the EU and all they took for granted and lost can be returned to them. Then it looks more appealing.
Then when the effects of Westminsters colonisation of Scotland can be laid bare and measured against a brighter future will we have our chance.
Westminster laughs at Scotland I mean look at verse six of GSTQ for crying out loud, and people in this country actually sing that shite?!
Nicola said she would call indy2 when the outcome of Brexit is clear. I believe the reason for that is what I suggest above.
She is doing exactly what she said she would do.
When people cannot delude themselves any more that nothing will change they must make a choice as to which kind of change they prefer.
“Why did the Scots not vote for Independence in 2014?”
“Because they have not suffered enough yet”
Its coming, (unless May revokes A50), Its coming.
Although I cannot say I have 100% confidence that the majority of my fellow countrymen and Women have seen enough to make a change.
To set aside “I’m alright jack”, “I believe the MSM” “Everything bad is the SNP’s fault”
No I am not yet confident that Scotland the Brave is not still Scotland the Feart, the country that embarrassed itself in 2014.
I know I know I shouldn’t say that on here, but it is my opinion and I hope beyond hope I am wrong.
So May just wants the other party leaders to ‘budge’ by giving them some concessions on worker’s rights and some no detailed ‘environmental protections’ but she will not move herself nor her government’s ‘principled’ stance on ‘her’ deal, that was ‘historically’ smashed out the park the other night?
No extension of A50 and delaying departure is on the table from the Tories her spokesman has said: ‘Because we do not wish to do it’.
No budging on second ref, regardless of rumours, this is the Tory gov’s ‘principled’ stance?
No budging on remaining in the customs union, again one of ‘her’ ‘principled’ stances?
No removing of any of her ‘red lines’ and yet there are so called ‘constructive talks’ taking place?
Basically no way forward apart from what? We just have to wait till Monday now. So another delaying tactic is underway whilst her whips try to get those Tories who rejected the bill back on board? And she once again goes to the unions to see if they can be bought of by a bunch of historically lying pieces of Toryshit?
I think the trigger is very imminent for us and I know Nic will be watching this last little manoeuvre very closely.
They drag us out on Monday and we go to all out fucking def con Indy2 on Tuesday.
Geeo..not only are you a towering intellectual genius on the constitutional ways forward for Indy…you are wee greetin faced grass…running off to bleat to the REV every time someone uses’abusive’ language.
Yet you spend your time on here abusing people as ‘talkin’ pish’ and droolin ‘spittle’ off their chins. Your analogy of the playground bully you used made me laugh…you are the type of hero that hings back when the square go kicks off and then runs in and boots the loser lying on the deck.
“Nicola said she would call indy2 when the outcome of Brexit is clear.”
The outcome is no deal seems clear enough to anybody who can see hear taste touch and smell.
Anybody believe that Theresa May will drop her “Alternative” for another? Anybody believe that Labour can win an election between now and the end of march and negotiate another alternative?
Anybody believe Theresa may can get her present alternative through Parliament with another go?
No? Then its as clear to you as it is to me then.
“Why are you persisting in this gibbering worthless pedantic manner of argument?”
Because you made some statements that I think you need to back up with solid evidence.
Now, since all you have offered so far is bluster and hot air, I’ll try asking you again:
1) Where’s your evidence to support your absolute, unqualified claim that TMay effectively lied in her EU-Ref stance? Let’s see it.
You made the statement:
“No s30 means UDI”
2) I would like to know how you came to that conclusion? On what basis are you saying that and what evidence do you have to support this statement?
Something more than evasion and obfuscation would be infinitely preferable.
Thanks.
But all this is to be thrashed out in the HoC on 29th January I heard on shortbread radio.
How did that happen?
More road to kick the can down.
@ Maolbeatha
Pretty much sums it up right enough although folk already feeling the first effects in places.
Brian Powell 2.11pm The guardian article
Also:
Havn’t seen Luigi post for sometime. Miss his good common sense posts
Lochside 3.43pm. Oh you’ve gone and done it now. The accusations will be flying in thick and fast.
Looking at the predictions that have been made by people on wings over recent months it is clear that some folk like to make out they know what the outcome will be when in fact ,just like the rest of us ,they don’t.
Personally I don’t think Brexit will happen now.
Having a hard border in Ireland would be the only way for Brexit to succeed now and existing law prevents a hard border unless Westminster and Eire agree to have one.
Stormont being out of action at present I believe would give Westminster the right to make decisions on behalf of Northern Ireland but I cannot see Eire agreeing to a hard border in any circumstances.
If Brexit doesn’t happen I can’t see Scottish independence happening ,not for the foreseeable future anyway.
“Why did the Scots not vote for Independence in 2014?”
“Because they have not suffered enough yet”
____________
A friend of mine has always said that “Scotland needs a bigger stick” (taken to it, only then will people waken up)
mike — trying to goad the FM ?
We know roughly what is likely to happen but not what is certain.
Independence referendum is coming soon. TORY/LABOUR BREXITERS need not worry.
Well, I”ve just addressed that Mike, let’s see what happens on Monday eh?
I know everyone is anxious about this, but none of us on here or anyone else but who we’ve elected can ‘act’ till it is ‘clear’ and the stars are aligning as we type.
What else is there to do right now?
Pointless going off on everyone just cause your’e frustrated, everyone has different coping mechanisms, some people get aw calm afore the storm and others rattled like fuck.
If and I say big IF, those bastards suddenly decide last minute to spring a delay or a customs union concession, then we, if we act too soon, will be forced to reverse. Politics is the art of perception as much as persuasion and rights now the Tories are trying to come across aw ‘willing to talk’.
May has to pull something out the bag by Monday and if she and her gov manage to get the votes for her deal then and only then does the withdrawal deal get ratified at WM. Having done so, then will be the moment of clarity of our position because we all know our reps will not be voting for her deal and therefore we will be ripped out the EU at that moment.
That is when I would expect Nic to announce imminent indy2.
Then the battle commences and the phoney war is over.
Maolbeatha @ 15:36,
Yes, of course there is a lot of Brexit denial still goin’ around, but the clusterbourach is beginning to be noticed, because (unlike our own situation) it isn’t being censored by the legacy media.
I disagree though about your timing. If we wait for Brexit to happen before we make a move, it will be too late. It will have become the new normal, whatever else happens. Peak fear will be just before Brexit, since by then everyone will be looking down the imminent precipice.
The time to move, I think, is as soon as it becomes clear to the public that a “People’s Vote” is not going to happen.
Even if May can be persuaded to compromise on an EURef2, how many Labour MPs would be willing to support it? Anyone know…?
Another scenario is that a VONC does succeed after Monday and again we will have to see how that played out. So again nothing we can do but wait and see.
There is not enough support from Labour MP’s nor Tories to get a ‘people’ not through Robert and she’s not for budging on this either.
Mike says:
17 January, 2019 at 3:44 pm
“Nicola said she would call indy2 when the outcome of Brexit is clear.”
The outcome is no deal seems clear enough to anybody who can see hear taste touch and smell.
Mike,
Until Parliament agrees to something, anything! or the clock runs out the outcome is still variable and some may cling onto the idea that “it’ll be fine”.
Once the outcome is set then people will have to face up to a new reality.
me @ 15:59,
Oh, and I should add, I have full confidence that the SG will make that move in good time. So hang on, we’re almost there now…
Oh dear, lochside in “dribbling pish” shocker.
Never mind, soon we will be independent, and you will be even more irrelevent that you are now…
The Guardian article linked by Socrates MacSporran at 1006 looks interesting. Is it a practical way forward?
Robert Louis says:
Here’s the state of play.
I pretty much agree with all of your post, this next round of the goat rodeo, starts on monday when treeza will come back with her deal, except this time mp can bring forward ammendments which will be put to the vote. expect the libdems table a peoplesvote ammendment, the snp a sm/cu ammendment, labour a delay to a50, another vote on treezas deal and lastly a vote to revoke A50
as each of these options is voted on and rejected all that will be left on the table will be a no deal brexit.
I would expect corbyn to then table another motion of no confidence, if 10 pro eu tories dont cross the floor, then that will be that.
ns will launch scotref and demand a s30 from treeza, I think while she will say “now is not the time” she has to officially refuse within 30 days (im not 100% certain of time period) if and when the s30 request is officially refused by wm, a legal challenge will follow. i dont know by which route, scots law, sc, eu courts etc or indeed how long it would take, but it will happen.
I wouldnt be surprise if sinn fein didnt turn back up at stormont, agree to the dup demands to drop the irish language act in an attempt to get the assembly back up and running for the sole purpose of voting through a iu referendum. Im unclear exactly how they would go about doing this, ben madigen would know better what possible routes exist to bring about this.
bear in mind, as all this is going on, as the deadline of the 29th march approaches, the pro eu tories will get more and more desparate and it isnt beyond the bounds of possibility for corbyn to table another vonc/ge. if a ge was called, im certain the eu would concede to a delay of a couple of months for the uk to hold a ge. (even better for us, i hate campaigning in the winter) so other nuclear options such as withdrawing our mps from WM should be on hold for the moment.
Shinty says:
The bottom line in 2014 was probably that too many Scots saw remaining in the Union as staying in a safe haven. Their lifestyles and status seemed more secure just leaving things as they were.
But things weren’t left as they were. The Union looks like stormy seas now. Nothing and no one is safe.
IndyRef2 will be a different ballgame. All we need is the right moment.
Geeo…I think the spelling is ‘irrelevant’…sorry..I know you have higher things to attend to…but don’t want Nicola losing faith in you..do we?
No Ron, I don’t think so. We are beyond ‘creative’ solutions. Scotland ‘underwrites’ Brexit, our oil does anyway, if the Tories had wanted to play fair in terms of the EU vote then that would have been on the table just after EU vote, as it has played out and our voice has been ignored, rejected and undermined in every sense, there will not now be a volte-face in the Curren gov’s position: ‘Brexit means Brexit’.
@ Brian Powell – great link. I went to archive the article so here’s the link.
(Would have posted sooner but I’ve just had to scroll past such an endless stream of consciousness squabble that has probably destroyed this thread.)
Still, this article is worth reading on how Scotland and Northern Ireland should stay in Europe and England and Wales should leave:
link to archive.fo
Nothing is *known* until it’s on a legal document and ratified as such, then it’s *known*
Until that time it’s all talk and talk changes all the time
K1 @ 16:03,
You could well be right. In which case, it just has to become obvious to folks, and that eventuality will get full media exposure, so everyone will know.
That’s what clever about the SG approach, however it may test our patience. The media will never give Nicola a fair hearing over Brexit (or anything else), so instead she lets the others create an unsortable mess in full public view. And people are beginning to wake up to the sheer incompetence of it.
Get the diversions out of the way, then strike. Offer Scotland a more-plausible and safer “out”.
Intersting article link to new-direction.scot
An annoucement in 2 weeks suggests the FM could be sticking to her original timeline of spring 2019 or it could suggest she feels that making a refreshed section 30 order would further push May towards a no deal and more ‘no’s’ into the ‘yes’ camp?
What’s lower than irrelevant ? Asking for a friend
Robert J. Sutherland says
Fair point on timing Robert. And I agree, unless some kind of almost re-admittance to the EU is clearly stated by the EU then yes it has to happen before we are out.
I should have said when the likely effects of brexit are believed or felt. Then people will have to choose.
I think people can easily forget that Brexit is going to cost the EU as well and you couldn’t blame them for not liking this whole procedure very much, the EU have really gone out of their way to accommodate the UK in the last two years when if you think about it was a pretty polite thing to do given the the UKs behaviour the whole of the time with their name calling and insults, none of this was the EUs idea they’re having to redesign their economics at the same time as dealing with the incompetence of the UK approach
The EU could have said right from the beginning OK sod off then and got on with sorting themselves out
Which I suppose is kinda what they’re saying now *We’ve run out of patience sod off or stay we don’t care anymore, we’re busy”
When will you all stop your playground abuse of each other we are all entitled to our views and rightly so we may not agree but that is no excuse for trying to have some posters removed from this site I thought we were all after our freedom so surely that includes our freedom to post our opinions on here and apart from anything else your abuse is Bad manners
Mike@2.37 pm
It is the Treaty of Union not the act of Union.
@K1 4.08pm
Sadly I think you’re probably right.
call me dave @ 3:53
That people are having to suffer is unfortunate and should have been unnecessary but if they make the connection between the hardship and Brexit as the cause.
And Independence as the best way out of the hardship then we are off and running.
With a bit of luck any suffering may be short lived and quickly remedied.
By independence of course.
schrodingers cat @ 16:06,
Still desperately hoping for that UKGE unicorn, eh? One might almost think you were a Labourite. For that unlikely scenario, I refer you to my last responses on the previous thread:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
link to wingsoverscotland.com
It’s far more likely that May could persuade Corbyn into some kind of Leave compromise than that she would willingly or unwillingly give up government. (Not that that’s saying much either way.) She is fixated on a Leave come hell or high water, and (whatever they may say) everyone else is only too happy for the moment to let her take full blame for the consequences.
@Blair Paterson.
Is this the type of free speech “opinions” you are defending as a right to give ?
……
Mike says:
17 January, 2019 at 1:26 pm
@Peffers
And as usual we can rely on you to offer nothing but demented in answer to a serious point and issue.
I honestly believe you have some serious mental health issues you need to deal with paranoia not being the least of them.
Nothing I have ever posted could in any way shape or form be described as accusing the Scottish Government of acting against the people of Scotland. That would be your demented diseased mind coming to conclusions based on interpretation only you could possibly fathom.
Go bile yer fucking heid ya roaster
……….
C,mon Blair, post these words.
“Mike, what you posted is completely unacceptable, apologise to Robert and desist from such vitriolic personal abuse”.
Well, Blair, what say you ?
@ Socrates Macsporran – apologies – I see you posted that link to the Princton prof article at 10.06. I sounds like such a sensible solution to keep everyone happy that we just know Westminster would never buy it.
A very general comment on Brexit :
All of “us” political anoraks can discuss the dots and commas of the Brexit brouha as much as we like.
But out on the street, among many folk I speak to every day, there is a huge amount of belief that “it will be alright on the night”.
Nicola Sturgeon is not unlike a chess grandmaster, imo, who can calculate to a depth of five, six, or seven moves to analyze a certain situation and then to systematically work out an intricate plan. Thank God she’s our leader because taking into account the twists and turns of this Brexit fiasco, if we had listened to / still listen to some people on here we’d be over and out. She’s also in contact with many Constitutional experts whom she no doubt consults with, so will know more, MUCH more, about what we can do to achieve our Independence, or not, than some of the so-called ”experts” on here.
………………………..
Spot on Maria.
@ Maria F at 2:56pm ……..”So no, the way to secure a victory for indyref is by allowing the tories and labour to walk themselves into their own cul de sac and to the very end of it from where they cannot come out. They are walking into that cul de sac just fine, but there are still some options where they are standing, so let them walk a little bit further.”
……………………….
Oh no! More bad news.
link to walesonline.co.uk
……………………………..
@ Capella says at 4:09Pm ……”@ Brian Powell – great link. I went to archive the article so here’s the link.”
link to archive.fo
Is that along the lines of what Stu suggested previously on here?
Also while that article from the Princeton prof is very erudite and practical, he clearly doesn’t factor in the sectarian aspect of NI politics…and the current DUP being in charge of UK wide politics. By doing so the article lacks the depth of understanding of the truly epic toxicity at the heart of UK politics in general. Another reason I’m afraid why something so straightforward in theory would never be taken on seriously by WM and our current UK gov.
Capella @ 4.09 & others
It looks on the face of it a solution…
But what about the oil and gas?
There’s nothing in this article that suggested who has control of it.
Westminster will never willingly hand control to Holyrood, as far as I can see!
So going forward… should we agree to take the ability to make international treaties about everything except our own oil and gas?
Will we not have much more “clout” as the EUs largest oil producer, and by extension would we no have devalued ourselves in the EU too ?
Also
Since this arrangement would potentially unveil Scotland’s true worth and the generational effects will also be a factor. This arrangement in theory would just be another step along the route to full Independence….. My concern would be that to move to Independence this in this way would mean
A. Having to argue for our own oil!
B. Finding that our Oil has been locked in to Westminster control the next time a British Nationalist party got control of Westminster. With the intention that we are not going to ever leave without it.
Naw all that’s a bit convoluted just to save England from what it actually voted for…
While it will make trading arrangements much more clear if England remains in the EU with us (Wales will have to do what England chooses sadly) that’s only the case for the first few years of Indy.
Once we bed in to Europe we’ll be fine….
So full Indy for me….
Geeo@12.41 pm
I was going to post the same info but you beat me to it. It does however seem that some people missed it. So I’ll repeat it.
At FMQs Sturgeon says she will be announcing a decision in the next few weeks about indyref2 -whether or not article 50 is extended. The Presiding officers face was tripping him when she said this.
@Proud Cybernat
Im being asked to prove that Theresa May tells lies. How about just googling Theresa May lies?
Where is the evidence that she voted remain? Do you have a copy of her ballot paper?
The evidence I base my accusation on is the FACT that she can cancel Brexit EASILY and REMAIN in the EU but she wont and the reason she gives is because she believes in the democratic will of the people of the UK and you choose to believe that because she’s a known liar.
On top of that she could just as easily reach a compromise on Brexit but instead of trying insists that an option NOBODY WANTS is the ONLY ONE she accepts as an alternative.
On top of that she deliberately delays acting wilfully running down the clock towards the DEFAULT position of no deal.
And here you are pretending that the REALITY of what everything she is saying and doing is not contradictory and you still believe she wants to remain in the EU when she and only she can absolutely guarantee we stay in the EU because its in her power to do so.
You are wilfully denying reality itself in order to promote what you know is a pitiful pathetic pedantic worthless argument with no substance or foundation because reasons.
Get a grip.
@ 4.57
Got control of Holyrood…. obviously…
I wait with bated breath for the stance of those who called me a narrow nationalist in 2014. Will they expose themselves as the British Nationalists I think they are demanding we stay tied to the isolated UK of 3 other countries (although I don’t believe NI was ever a country in its own right) or become a member with the many countries of the EU.
So what will people like flouncy hair and wizard woman’s position be, I think I can guess.
We are about to find out in the not to distant future.
Heads up Glasgow City council just agrees 500 million pay deal.
Labour will now brazenly claim its all down to their campaigning forcing the Scottish Government to do the right thing.
As predictable as Wednesday following Tuesday but worse the media will be their conduit.
Cheers Cubby, well worth a repeating.
In other news, after decades of Labour (and tricky dickie unions) shafting Glasgow’s Female workforce, the SNP have sorted out their sorry mess in little over 18 months.
(From the Herald, no link as story behind paywall)
…..
GLASGOW City Council has agreed to pay £500 million to settle its long-running equal pay dispute, putting thousands of historically low-paid women in line for an average pay-out of £35,000.
The historic deal has been agreed in principal by council leader Susan Aitken and the trade unions and lawyers representing the affected women.
……….
Getting on with the day job, sorting out Labours mess.
Well done to all involved.
@Cubby
And that decision could easily mean delaying it until the smoke of Brexit clears again.
What is she going to learn in the next few weeks she doesn’t already know today?
red sunset @ 16:49,
That attitude is only true among hardened Leavers, I think. The kind that feature amazingly regularly on broadcast TV.
Otherwise hard to explain why the polls are indicating a steady shift of opinion to Remain, and not just in Scotland either. Neutrals are beginning to suss who was telling the biggest fibs, and how much Brexit will hurt. Not least them personally.
But let Brexit happen, then that attitude will undoubtedly become the norm. “Pity, but what’s done is done.”
We don’t really have a choice but to act sometime soon, whatever the undoubted risks. If we fumble the ball now, we’ll bleed hope and support, and 2017 will seem like some kind of Golden Age in comparison.
@geeo
Thanks for that about Harvie and FMQs. Clears away a bit of uncertainty, as it could be thought acceptable to delay Indy Ref 2 for a year if MV2 (Meaningful Vote 2) was delayed for a year with a year’s extension. But the problem is that more damage is done to Scotland, house market frozen, EU citizens still leaving, the economy going down and inward investment reduced. Westminster being a shambles is sufficient “change in material circumstances” to fulfill the mandate foor IR2.
It goes to show by the way the great double act between the SNP and the Greens, as the Greens (opposition) can say what the SNP (government) can’t
For those that missed it, the question and exchanges between Partick Harvie and Nicola at FMQ’s today (12:24:30)
link to scottishparliament.tv
Dr Jim @2.26 pm
Not sure you are correct in saying it would be illegal. Is it not that the referendum is carried out without Westminster’s agreement/approval. That of course is not the same as saying it is illegal or unlawful.
According to Bloomberg *If Scotland becomes Independent it takes it’s oil with it that’s the legal position*
Now I’m quite sure the UK might like to take a different position by by their own petard are they hoisted when they agreed that UK fishing was devolved to Scotland but we’re taking control of those powers before they are returned to Scotland from the EU
I think they might find their position legally hanging by a thread with the logic that yes everything in Scottish seas belongs to Scotland except the minerals coz we want them
If everything inside UK borders belongs to them now then everything inside Scottish borders will belong to Scotland
except shared assets like MOD which will require negotiated removal time limits (Trident) and such like
Further to my 4.57 post
This arrangement also does nothing about Faslane !
And since Westminster will still need to claim to be the Sovereign Parliament..
Even the ability to fix Holyroods list system would still be beyond us.
There’s probably lots of other issues that this proposal doesn’t fix Brexit isn’t the only issue we have, that this pretendy federalism doesn’t address!
And I would wonder if this sort of “Vow” is the offer that the British Nationalists would hope Scotland would sign up to, and it will be called a New Act of Union!!!
I know this article is not coming from Westminster and don’t question the authors motivation for writing it…. but right now Westminster are bound to be looking for what might fly to head of Indy!
We can have the relationship described and be an Istanbul if that’s what we want… we don’t need to stay yoked to Westminster to do that!!!
All we actually need is to be rid of the Treaty of Union.. everything else follows on from that
Jist sayin!!
May still thinks she can get her deal through!
Her discussions are simply an empty gesture in the hope that when the clock nears zero everyone backs down.
She will not budge and the DUP will not surrender?
Corbyn will ponder his next view but fail to act
So it looks like a hard Brexit
@cubby 5:16pm
If we’re still in the UK it’s their legal system we have to comply with for an agreement we sign up to or we’re breaking their law, I should point out it might be a fine point of law and I’m not any legal expert I’m only repeating my understanding of other legal peoples judgements, but hey it’s law and any law’s a minefield, that’s why those lawyer guys get the good money for confusing the rest of with it
Unfortunately
@K1
I think we might have to wait longer than Monday for IR2. Sturgeon with her legal background is precise, as she was when she actually announced IR2 back in 2017, and nothing’s changed despite the MSM putting all sorts of interpretation like “delay” “shelves” on it, including Iain McW who really should know better by now, unless he’s in on the act. She said “weeks” and I think that’s what it will be. Over 8 weeks is months not weeks, so I think by the end of March before the 29th will probably do the job for the EU point of view, whatever the UK wants to do. Alyn Smith is busy in the EU Parl right now.
Yeah we’re all getting antsy, no I’m not, yes you fecking are 🙂
@K1 etc
Thinking back to 2014, Federal Broon etc – if Indyref2 is going too well could the article be used as a bribe to keep us in the precious, precious union.
“Im being asked to prove that Theresa May tells lies. How about just googling Theresa May lies?
Where is the evidence that she voted remain? Do you have a copy of her ballot paper?”
There you go again, trying to turn the issue round. You don’t get to do that I’m afraid.
Your are being asked about a very specific claim you made (which implies TMay has lied) to wit:
1) Where’s your evidence to support your absolute, unqualified claim that TMay effectively lied in her EU-Ref stance? (boldened for clarity). Let’s see it.
You made the further statement:
“No s30 means UDI”
2) I would like to know how you came to that conclusion? On what basis are you saying that and what evidence do you have to support this statement?
All this board has seen from you thus far is your complete evasion in giving a properly evidenced response to my questions. You see this is how WoS operates. The Rev will write an article and will, where appropriate, cite references (evidence) to back up what he is saying.
That you prevaricate and obfuscate would indicate that you have no proper answers to the specific question I posed you. I think that is probably the view that most reasonable thinking peolpe here will conclude.
In short, Mike – put up or shut up.
Thanks.
Under 16/18 in Scotland. 1.5Million
Over 60/65 in Dcotlabd 1.5Million
Rest 2.2Million in between.
Under 16/18 do not pay tax
Many pensioners pay tax. (Second pensions etc, savings, property)
Women who once worked P/T were denied pension rights. They were denied the right to joining pension schemes. Cherie Blair once fought )and won) a petion taken to court to pay claims retrospectively for P/t women’s pension rights.
Theresa May supports anything she thinks will keep her in power. Power corrupts.
Dr Jim @ 2.26pm
I think you are slightly wrong in your assertion that Indyref2, organised by the Scottish Governement, but held without a Section 30 order would be “illegal.”
As I understand it, a Section 30 Order is merely a statement whereby both parliaments – Holyrood and Westminster agree to honour the result. It is not a question of legal or illegal – it is a question of accepting the result.
I am quite certain, should the SG go ahead with Indyref2, and, the Noes win it – Westminster would accept that result.
However, should Yes win, they will throw everything they have, and more, at that result, declaring it null and void.
It’s what Westminster does – Britannia waiving the rules and all that.
Petra 4:50pm
Yes, the Guardian opinion piece is exactly what Rev Stu suggested months ago on this site.
You’ve got to say, the man is quite the analyst of situations and possible outcomes/solutions.
Hats off to him. He must be right in 95% of his predictions.
Not bad. Always room for improvement ?
Should the Westminster clique give another referendum on the EU, would it be better for indy supporters to vote No here in Scotland ?
That would be fun
If the oil ownership issue is going to rear its ugly head again, international law as in Conventions signed and ratified are very clear about it. The continental shelf goes with the maritime state, up to the median line boundary. So everything north of that within Scotland’s EEZ as actually negotiated by the UK regards Norway, Denmark and Holland, stands. Scotland is “lucky” – we have a clearly defined land border (possible exception of the old “Royal” Burgh of Berwick).
An exception is the 12 nm territorial waters and sometimes part of the up to 200nm EEZ, where it regards fishing rights. This was a cause of a dispute in the ICJ that lasted for years between a couple of the ex-USSR states I think, not sure I forget now, if it’s the Romania-Ukraine dispute which was only settled in 2009, or an earlier one, over the boundary in the Black Sea in any case.
To address the “stolen 6,000 miles” is more difficult. Firstly, one of the reasons for the more northerly line is not to split up oil fields, so that they are under one jurisdiction rather than two or more. So it’s likely around 70% theft and 30% perfectly reasonable, though the solution could have been to have a common area between Scotland and the rUK, even back in 1997. Mostly that reason doesn’t exist as these are old fields, so the line could easily be straightened – and should be. As much as anything, to simplify the maritime states Scotland and rUK rights and responsibilites for our EEZs.
Both of these mean though, that the media line could have more than one dog leg.
But in any case, the oild futher north, including off Shetland and Rockall, is 100% definitely iScotland’s – unless some fool of a negotiator gives it away for some odd reason!
This is a mix of opinion and a lot of old research, plus a smidgeon of old memory!
Whether or not it is TM’s plan or JC’s plan, I can see a no-deal Brexit happening and for the last year as the prevarications and f***-ups continued it has been the destination of our direction of travel.
Perhaps they will pull something out of the bag, but because all options don’t command a majority in the HoC, then I think the default (of no deal) will apply.
Now here’s my thinking. If that happens, from mid-March towards the end, that’s when things will start to go seriously wrong. Boats will stop as their owners don’t want to see them stuck in a British port on Brexit day. Lorries will stop – ditto. What EU haulier wants their lorries in the UK on Brexit day?
Therefore we need a vote then but before 30th March, because once we have it, then we can revoke Section 50 on behalf of Scotland.
Work backwards from then.
rjs
labour? me?
i mentioned the possibility of a future vonc/ge simply because it is a possibilty
but before then, next week in fact, all other brexit options, eg peoplesvote, customs union etc, will get an airing and be put to the mps to vote on. they will be rejected and will no longer be on the table. Proving that nicola’s support for them was correct as it cost us nothing but gained support from no voting remainers.
the only option which might gain a majority next week is to delay a50, but this would require the eu’s consent, so isnt a certainty.
I cant see treezas deal passing either, so that would leave the remaining option of revoking a50. oddly enough, this is the only way of taking no deal off the table, what corbyn is crying for, but i doubt there is a majotity for no brexit. that will leave the option of no deal brexit as the last man standing.
but at least we will finally know what brexit means. this the point we have all been waiting for.
the vonc/ge, the snp would support another and not as you claimed in on the last thread, that was just mischief making by unionists.
why, once weknow what brexit actually means would i support a ge?
1. holding a ge now would remove this option for the unionists while we hold indyref2. (they did this already remember)
2. it would force the unionist parties in scotland to face up to the clarity of their respective manifestos, ie, vote ruthie for a no deal brexit, or corbyn for a confusing brexit etc.
3. under these conditions, the snp would wipe the floor with the unionist in scotland and numpties like murdo would no longer be able to claim the people of scotland didnt want another indyref.
4. while I would predict large no of gains for the snp in scotland, no one knows what would happen in england, but perhaps, just perhaps neither the tories or labour would have an outright majority with the snp holding the balance of power.
5. then we ask for a s30
Re legality of any referendum, if Brian Souter could hold his own so-called referendum without an S30 order, so can the SG, or indeed any of us – just carefully worded is all. The question would need to be slightly differently worded from the 2014 one.
BBC QT line up tonight.
Rory ‘the tory’ Stewart.
Dianne Abbott
Kirsty Blackman
Isabel Oakshott (horrible article)
Anand Menon (chairs non party affiliated EU think tank, but taxpayer funded)
Oakshott will try talk over everyone, especially Abbott and Kirsty, she is pig ignorant.
97 year old squirrael has car accident ! At least you cant blame Phil the Greek for this one, oh what d’ya mean he caused it!
As I said on here some time ago, if I was Chooky Embra, I’d be worried, since the Establishment need a huge squirrel at the moment.
Maybe they should have got him to arrange the “accident”, after all – he is allegedly rather good at arranging such things.
Does Northern Ireland ‘require’ a section 30 or equivalent before a unification vote?
No comment needed on this, the URL says it all!
link to heraldscotland.com
It mentions Patrick Harvie’s question and the reply.
Incidentally, quite disappointed with Andrew Wilson’s 3 articles so far in The National, I was expecting more about the future, like economy and currency in Independent Scotland, not his opinions on relatively minor current legislation like cannabis!
@socrates macsporran.
How many times ?
ANY referendum of LEGALLY SOVEREIGN Scots people is LEGALLY BINDING.
No debate, no if’s nor what if’s, it stands in every case.
It stood in 2014, hence requiring the SNP to win a completely new indyref mandate this time.
And yes, as sovereign Scots, we CAN change our mind.
And lastly for now, an accident on the A90, nobody hurt I think, lorry jack-knifed. My boy nearly caught, was going to overtake in the outside lane but it was white so he held back. He was well trained 🙂
jfngw says:
So what will people like flouncy hair and wizard woman’s position be, I think I can guess.
————-
if there is a no deal brexit, many nos will immediately move from no to yes, we might be surprised by just who crosses the floor, we also need to be ready to accept them.
i have no love for hotherstall, jk rowling neil oliver etc, but if they came out for yes, i would just bite my lip and welcome them on board
Howdonwe find out from Norfolk Police if the 97 year driver who caused a RTA by driving without due care and attention was breathalised and if not whynot?
Ha ha, brilliant new update of Dave in the SNP latest PPB.
A certain hipster and his lackey politico’s wil be onto their lawyers again.
@cat
I don’t hold a grudge for any NO voters, or genuine honest campaigners – just the deliberately lying ones. Both sides were “robust” in Indy Ref 1, and it’s the same now. All who move over to YES are welcome, even a reformed Alistair Darling or Carmichael!
The unhitching of Scotland from England has begun.
As Brexit draws closer and the Polls begin to move in our favour,,,you get the feeling that this is for real,,,this is the real thing,,,Scotland could actually be an Independent Nation in 2019.
Let’s hope that when we do win our independence, we remember those who fought all their life for Independence and died before seeing it become a reality.
People like Margo McDonald who coined the famous phrase that if we can all convince one person to vote Yes, then we will win our Independence.
@Mike says: 17 January, 2019 at 1:26 pm:
” … And as usual we can rely on you to offer nothing but demented in answer to a serious point and issue.”
Oh! Grow up and start acting like an adult. You have consistently posted here on an open forum that the FM, who, by the way, as the leader of the SNP, does not, and cannot, make party policy. That can only be done by branch delegates at national conference.
As First Minister of the Holyrood Parliament she has to make decisions but these can only be in relation to Holyrood matters. She has no authority over the Westminster group as FM. She does as party leader but that too is restricted to party matters. Her opinions are, though, very much valued by the Westminster Group and their Westminster Group leader.
Thus, the truth of the matter is that decision are a matter of collective, and that means democratic, decisions. These will not only take account of the party members as the SNP is bottom up led. It will take account of both the Holyrood and Westminster elected members but will also benefit from advice from civil service and legal officers.
The SNP is far from being a leadership dictatorship. Thus when Nicola states a decision has been made on any certain matter it is not Nicola’s own decision. It is a collective decision and backed up by legal and civil service experts.
Yet here are people like you, and you are not alone, nor are you acting alone, who are here on an open forum telling the readership of the forum that Nicola Sturgeon is wrong and you are right. That the Scottish Government, both elected and either professional civil service or trained legal officers are wrong and you alone are right.
Furthermore, and it must have been posted here on Wings thousands of times, that if every active indy campaigner could convince just one non-indy person to vote YES Scotland would be independent. The converse, of course, is also correct. If every active unionist could make just one indy voter change their mind then Scotland would never be a free nation ever again.
Yet here you are on a daily basis telling the readership of Wings that Nicola Sturgeon is acting against the best interests of Scottish independence. Care to tell us what you imagine Nicola’s motives are for so doing?
She has been fighting for Scottish independence since she was a teenager at school. She is a trained lawyer and thus could be making a handsome income as such, and with a hell of a lot less bother, stress and aggravation. Quite obviously she is not in it for the money nor for an easy life. She won’t even get an honour from the Westminster Establishment and if it was offered would not accept it.
So are we to believe you are a more politically astute person and better informed of the current situations than the First Minister and her host of advisors?
Oh1 and by the way, how can I be paranoid when you factually, almost daily, comment on Wings that Nicola/the SG/The SNP are wrong and you are right? Furthermore I have never told you not to post whatever you like nor have I told you to go away.
As I already stated – if it is good enough for you to run down Nicola Sturgeon on an open forum then it is good enough for me to run you down on the same open forum. If it does nothing else it might just give you a wee insight into how Nicola must feel when she reads your comments on Wings.
Now, as ever, I may be wrong but I jalouse you are more than a little bit upset at the criticism – how do you imagine Nicola feels upon reading your comments?
Not to mention that any unionist who reads your comments will be well encouraged by them just as Nicola will be rather discouraged.
Anyway, you are free to call me all the names you can think up here on Wings. They are not going to upset me or even make me angry. I never post in anger. When you get angry you have lost the argument.
BBC talking shite yet again .
“Whether these independence supporters like it or not, the power to call a referendum rests with the WM government”
Jackson Carlaw…asked about indyref says: “my answer is, no way”.
Loony tune tv.
@geeo says: 17 January, 2019 at 1:41 pm:
” … Mike’s abusive comment at 1.26pm has been reported to the Rev for foul and abusive personal abuse to a poster (robert peffers).
Just to be clear, geeo, any complaint made was not from me. I believe that debate is healthy and if the participants sink to open abuse they have lost the place and lost the debate.
Last thing Wings needs is the Rev Stu posting a topic and everyone else posting, “Me too”.
geeo
As you say: the people of Scotland are legally sovereign.
It stands therefore: any referendum of these legally sovereign people, organised by the Scottish Government, must be legal in Scotland – under Scots Law.
The problem is: the UK Constitution is a reserved matter, it is Westminster’s responsibility, not Holyrood’s.
Therefore, it is, for sake of clarity, preferable that a Section 30 Order is in plce, whereby, Westminster agrees to be bound by the result.
And if, as I am sure they feel at the moment, Westminster feels they will lose – there is no way they will agree to a Section 30 Order.
As I wrote in my last post – Britannia waiving the rules and all that.
If Yes wins Indyref2 – even an Indyref2 without a Section 30 Order in place – then Scotland will have a quadruple lock on the result.
Under the FPTP voting system of Westminster – the majority of the Scottish MPs support Independence.
Under the Holyrood Parliament voting system – the majority of the Scottish MPs (SNP and Greens) support Independence.
A majority of the legally sovereign Scottish People – asked to do so in a referendum – supported independence
The referendum had the support of the members of the Scottish Parliament – who voted to hold it.
Under these circumstances, while Westminster would still try to say NO. If the Scottish Government took the case to the International Court, or to the United Nations – these bodies would surely find in favour of Scotland, th Treaty of Union would be revoked and Scotland would be Independent.
BUT, I repeat, Britannia will waive the rules. They will lie, they will cheat, they will do everything they can to deny us that independence.
@geeo 6:40pm
Absolutely, the BBC going full Britnat propaganda untruths all over the place
STV no different in their handling of the GCC wages dispute
and the nerve of once again interviewing Rea Wolfson Labour party activist and GMB member who’s Union it was who took the women to court in the first place to make sure they wouldn’t have to pay them what they were owed then march them out into the streets pretending to support them against the new GC SNP council who said they would pay them what they were owed is reprehensible and the BBC and STV know it so are complicit in this deception
@Proud Cybernat
Again I provide the exact same PROOF ive been providing all day. The absolute proof OF REALITY!!!!! that in spite of the fact that Theresa May can cancel Brexit and remain within the EU she CHOOSES of HER OWN FREE WILL to run down the clock towards a No deal Brexit by WILFULLY proposing a deal NOBODY WANTS and will vote for.
If she is a remainer then why is she not keeping us in the EU? She is the ONLY ONE WHO CAN! She has the power and authority and whats more the fucking MANDATE to do it!!!! She has everything she needs to keep us in the EU but WONT! Because she wants OUT!!! again SHE WANTS OUT!!! Did she come to this choice after the vote? Did she suddenly decide she wanted out after the she voted to remain? Because over the 2 year period she became convinced its the best option? In spite of everybody and his fucking dog telling her it is the worst option? That there is no Brexit scenario which sees the UK better off? All scenarios see us all worse off so she was convinced that’s the way to go.
Is that not proof of her intent? Is that not proof that its ALWAYS BEEN HER INTENT?
Rhetorical question because both you and I KNOW THAT IT IS you just choose to pretend you fucking don’t because yer fucking demented.
If anybody is a so called 77th Brigade member it has to be some cunt who would go out of their way to defend the PMs sick fuck position on Brexit with pitiful levels of absolute howling stupidity and pedantry.
his “carer” was with him.
@ Lenny Hartley says at 6:29 pm…. ”How do we find out from Norfolk Police if the 97 year driver who caused a RTA by driving without due care and attention was breathalised and if not why not?”
They’re still harping on about this. As you say was he breathalysed and will he be charged with careless / dangerous driving?
Some Bishop or other saying prayers for him with not a mention of the two innocent people who were injured. The BBC hasn’t got a great deal to say about them either. All about Philly. That should detract from the Brexit debacle for a few days or so.
The BBC STV and the Britnats all conveniently ignoring Scotland’s Claim of right that went through the Westminster parliament with barely a flicker because they don’t understand what that is, it’s not Scotland’s claim to have ice cream when we want it and I’ll leave it to @Robert Peffers to explain in far better detail than I ever could just exactly what Scotlands claim of right is
Indy ref 2 – Good news indeed! What I call a ‘safe accident’ that teaches you so much more than any lesson ever will.
…And RELAX….
SNP PPB
Next time they should use another Davy guy without the beard and a N. Ireland accent.
@Dr Jim
Which was inevitable and its only going to get worse as the media in Scotland focuses more and more on Alex Salmond and trying to create a divide between him and the FM while the UK Government denies the Scottish Government and Parliament its mandate to call a second Indyref.
Its going to get nastier and uglier with the gloves coming off altogether. That’s how the UK state rolls when it comes to constitutional crises.
@Dr Jim
Oh they understand they simply don’t care. Too many on here don’t see the reality yet we’re not dealing with Democrats or progressive politicians we’re dealing with an organised crime syndicate posing as political power adopting fascism as their ideology.
Christ people wake the fuck up and smell our future.
@Robert Peffers
Could I impose upon your time to post an accurate meaning and description of Scotland’s claim of right as in the mayhem of other subjects this important item always seems to be overlooked as unimportant
I believe like me there are many who would value such an education on the subject
@Peffers
And yet again we get the inevitable compulsive demented.
@Mike says: 17 January, 2019 at 1:54 pm:
” … You can only laugh at the strategy that comes from banning pro Indy support from Pro Indy blogs. Its this level of self harming that lost us the 2014 referendum.”
I’ll correct that statement for you Mike.
That’ll be, “You can only laugh at the strategy that comes from banning claimed pro Indy support from Pro Indy blogs.”
What he hell is pro indy about attempting to trash the actions of the FM, The SG and the SNP? Something you have consistently done since you began commenting on Wings.
You are an absolute delight to the unionists as is anyone else that runs down the only people who, as a government or just as a party are known the World over as the people who, as a political party, have fought for independence for Scotland since 1934.
Tell me this, who else is it that got us this far?
Bejeezus! A Royal health scare! Who’d have thunk it at this time of political turmoil?
RP @6.51
I reported his comment.
People coming on to this blog do not need to read such vitriolic garbage.
Gentle chiding and telling someone they are talking pish is a long way from what certain posters spew on this discussion.
If they want to behave like that, most unionist media provide such a platform.
It is not a case of them ‘losing’ the argument, as they never had an argument, they are in fact, looking FOR an argument, to disrupt the thread.
Look how much improved this place is minus the unedited slaverings of the troll, Rock for example.
These pages btl are much more pleasant and informed places to visit, and going by the volume of slavers posted by the person under scrutiny here, that clearly worries him.
If we need to clip a few wings (sic) to make this place somewhere folk can come for reasoned debate and clear informed information, then that seems to me a price worth paying.
@ Petra, K1, Liz g – yes, that solution of Scotland and NI staying in the EU and England and Wales leaving is basically what Stu suggested some weeks ago. A win, win, win, win situation – which is why Westminster would never countenance it.
BUT. It is being suggested by a PRINCETON professor. So it must be more worthy than anything a mere Nat could put forward.
Kim Lane Scheppele is the Laurance S Rockefeller professor of sociology and international affairs at Princeton University
Nevertheless, it is an obvious way out of the quagmire and in any rational state, which respected the wishes of its constituent parts, this would have been “on the table” from the beginning.
With full control of every lever of power, the fact that England and Wales were outside the successor state would not be of any consequence to Scotland, any more than the Isle of Man dictates UK policy now.
As for NI, the majority voted to stay in Europe. The DUP are not representing the wishes of their electorate and should have zero influence in Scottish daily life. If that outrage isn’t remedied then independence is an obvious solution.
mike cassidy says:
17 January, 2019 at 6:07 pm
Does Northern Ireland ‘require’ a section 30 or equivalent before a unification vote?
————
i dont know, i think an aticle by ben madigen on what possible ways that a iuref could be brought about would be of interest to us. if NI and Wales were clamouring for s30’s at the same time as Scotland it would help our case
facing a certain no deal brexit would cause many scot and welsh (maybe even tory) mps, msps am’s etc. to have a serious rething
“Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson has announced plans to call up armed forces reservists to deal with a potential no deal Brexit.”
link to archive.is
Feck, he’s intervening again.
He’s even accepting uncertainty.
Great foto of the big pudden on Ch4
@Mike says: 17 January, 2019 at 1:58 pm:
” … Its not only tick tock on Brexit but also on the mandate to call a second Indy ref yet folk prefer to believe in a 77th Brigade of fantasy goblins under the bed instead.”
Wise up, Mike. The Westminster Establishment spends a vast fortune every year on these, “fantasy goblins”.
They do indeed exist and there are a hell of a lot more than the 77th Brigade. Starting with the Police Force and the several, “Elite”, forces such as the RAF Regiment, The SBS and the SAS.
Not to mention MI5 & MI6, (wonder what happened to MIs 1, 2, 3 and 4)?
The United Kingdom is well known to be the most spied upon group of countries by its own government in the entire World and some of the government, so called, security forces are not even know by an official name.
Just so you know I spend 60 years in the MOD as an Industrial Civil Servant working on often top secret electronics projects.
@Peffers
Ok moron if by your judgement standards my posting alludes to an anti Indy stance based on YOUR PERCEPTION of my conclusions what does my openly critical stance on everything the UK state does allude to?
You judge me one way on some of what I post yet ignore everything else I post that doesn’t fit your conclusions.
If you’re going to judge me on my posting then you have to judge me on everything I post is that not so?
@Peffers
The point I was making regarding fantasy Goblins is the fact that I aint one of them and to state that I am is to believe in fantasy Goblins you howling imbecile.
schrodingers cat @ 17:54:
True in principle, but rather like the likelihood of a spontaneous gathering of ripples in a glass turning into a splash!
(I sometimes feel that my belief about the unlikelihood of a UKGE before E-Day is rather like someone in June 1939 declaring that a new world war is not likely, though in justification I think my opinion is rather better-founded.)
Agreed.
You miss the crucial fact, which I myself didn’t realise until recently, that only UKGov can revoke Art.50, not Parliament. An odd anomaly that, but there we are. So maybe the real question is, if it does come down to the wire, which of no-Brexit or no-deal would May choose? (Take a wild guess..!)
Yes. Hopefully.
A disappointingly facile response, which carefully dodges the issues I presented. It takes every single opposition party and some Tory rebels besides to bring down the government. The DUP being relentlessly wooed by May, the LibDems still fence-sitting (see my other ref) and the latter causing an irreconcileable split in the Tory Party. So, wishful thinking, even with the SNP eventually clarifying their position.
We get the message that you wish for a UKGE, but unfortunately for you, you don’t get to decide. Do try to face up to the realitues of the situation as I have outlined already. There’s far too much wishful thinking already.
But you could be right though, next week may clarify matters wonderfully. Let’s hope so.
Just waiting for Captain America and Scarlett Johansson to save us
You’re very ‘familiar’ Mike, with Robert, it’s as if you’ve been on here before but your name wasn’t Mike. The utter ‘contempt’ you are expressing for what he is posting seems a tad over the top for a ‘new’ poster on Wings. Just my opinion.
K1
Another fucking idiot or possibly the same moron under different accounts. Who knows?
Ah…there it is…do we have a ‘Danny’ back amongst our midst?
You do know there is no call for you to personally be going after all of us one by one Mike? No one has really said anything worthy of your rotten contemptuous comebacks, very curious way of engaging on a site that you are new to.
@Mike says: 17 January, 2019 at 2:01 pm:
” … I smile at somebody using the term “Sassenach” as a pro Indy credential. Only somebody who would campaign to have Brig a Doon made a tourist trap would come up with that.”
Oh! Dear! You obviously have no idea what the word, “Sassenach”, actually means, Mike. Do you know what its derivation is?
It is derived from the Gaelic word, “sasunnach”, and doesn’t mean what you obviously think it means.
It means, “Saxon”, or more correctly, “Saxon speaker”. In Gaelic, and I do not speak the language), it means anyone who speaks the Saxon, (English), language and in the Gaelic there is no differentiation between Lowland Scots language and English.
Both the lowland Scots and English languages are actually derived from Olde English and modern English Speakers would not understand Old English.
The term became used by Highlanders to mean anyone not speaking Gaelic i.e. Lowlanders.
It then got taken up by Scots lowlanders, (and the spelling changed, to mean only the English but the original meaning was non-Gaelic speakers including Scots lowlanders.
Anyone interested in reading the Hansard entry for the 3 hour debate in the House of Lords today should click on this link.
link to hansard.parliament.uk
they discussed a motion that this House should take note of the possible effects of BREXIT upon the stability of the Union.
This is a long read but it eye-opening on their attitude towards the Union.
They are concerned about matters in general – e.g. the lack of an Assembly in N. Ireland; the lack of proper regional representation for large regions of England, quite a bit bout Wales, but they think that there really is not that much support for Independence in Scotland…..as I say, it is an interesting read!
K1
Oh innocently jumping in with directed accusations provocatively followed by an indignant response post provocation. Very trollish of you.
Mike must be using a Dynamic IP to be so confident of escaping sanction.
Funny if he is, because mac was using a Dynamic IP and the Rev still got rid of him.
Enjoy posting abuse while you can mike.
The Tory’s firmly believe that Scots are, “subsidy junkies”, and they intend to further reduce public spending in Scotland.
This will be achieved through the implementation of recommendations resultant of a needs-based assessment, which will form the basis of a new funding system for the nations and regions of the United Kingdom.
link to caltonjock.com
Robert J Sutherland @ 7.32
Re. Only the Government can revoke article 50.
I did suspect the the reason the Speaker flexed his muscles and altered the rules the other week. Was in preparation for doing the same now that the Courts have ruled Article 50 can be revoked?
He might be able, to enable, the Westminster Parliament to instruct the Government to do so.
I’m not sure that he can,but it seems to me that there had to be a point other than the insignificant ruling he made!!
Thoughts??
@Peffers
If I don’t know what something means Im a google away from finding out you howling wee moron which means I can locate a definition meaning or informed description of anything before I need to respond so once again you STUPIDLY make assumptions based on you’re inescapable status as an imbecile.
@Geeo
Im confident that Stu knows and understands who are and who aren’t the trolling wee pricks on here.
Which begs the question how many accounts have you had to return under now?
@Mike says: 17 January, 2019 at 2:09 pm:
” … In other words a campaign to divide opinion then?
Wibble wibble wibble.”
Yup! exactly what you are attempting to do right here and now, Mike and exactly what you have done since you began on Wings.
Thanks Meg, here is the recording vid of that debate you have linked to, for those who may prefer to see them in action too.
Begins at 11:39:54
link to parliamentlive.tv
Meg Merrilees & K1
I’m still watching the Lord’s debate…
They are pretty much stuck in 2014!
Mike says:
17 January, 2019 at 7:29 pm
“you howling imbecile”
“Ok moron if by your judgement standards…”
Dear Mike
with all due respect, resourcing to insults like that does not do any service whatsoever to the credibility of your argument. In fact, it is showing where your weakness lies. If we want to win this indyref, we need to remain strong and cover our weakness so it is not exposed for others to abuse.
I am sorry if this sounds rather impertinent but this isn’t really a war zone and I do not think the aim of this blog is to unleash a clash of personalities among readers nor a competition for whose ego has been wounded the most.
This is a political blog that readers visit to learn, to read about all what the MSM or the BBC refuse to release, to read a precise deconstruction of the lies we are being fed by the UK state propaganda machines, to exchange information or even to feel that they are part of a group with a common goal.
I think it would be nice if we just keep it like that. It would be a irreparable loss to degrade this precious and unique site to the level of trash the Scotsman or the Express comments sections are.
We are all adults here (or at least I hope we are) and we don’t really need to like each other nor must have compatible personalities. Most of us visit this place because we have a common goal: Scotland’s independence. Fighting among us will not do our cause any service and will make the job easier for the “Fantasy gobblings” or those who are just attempting to use any excuse to trash this blog because they do appreciate their value but do not longer have the means, the arguments or the moral justification to fight Scotland’s independence in ethical and fair terms.
So, for the sake of the rest of us who are keen to continue enjoying the reading and exchanging information in this wonderful site, can we at least keep the criticisms to others’ contributions constructive, respectful and diplomatic and avoid the personal insults that don’t really help anybody?
Thank you kindly.
P.S.:
Now, excuse my appalling cynicism but didn’t somebody in the last couple of weeks mentioned here something about perhaps being time to take Prince Phillip out of the freezer to help distracting the plebs from the brexit fiasco?
Well…..
Janey Godley 🙂
Voice over Rees Mogg
link to instagram.com
@Peffers
Those who believe in one single opinion are either clones or are subjugated beneath a collective mind set.
The whole point of forums is to raise and discuss various options and opinions which helps to focus a wide variety of ideas into ideas which are more credible than others.
People like you believe in mantra.
How does it go in your world Peffers? “One of us” “One of us” “One of us”.
Seems to me you’re either suffering from High end autism or narcissism maybe even a bit of both. Something is definitely off with you.
Y’know Mike, given that those responding to your points, which I had actually done way before, I apparently ‘jumped in’, further up the thread, have been commenting on here for over 5 years now, it kinda beggars belief that you think calling us trolls and morons will leave any kind of mark on whoever you think you are appealing to on here, with your lamentable rotten contemptuous retorts to anyone who responds to your posts?
Have you been on Wings before under a different name Mike?
Your familiarity with Robert is unusual from a brand new poster, it’s like you really hate him, you are being very ‘personal’ with him, why? I think it’s a perfectly reasonable observation from anyone who has read the entire thread since you came on.
Wow!
The 77th really are paying by the word.
Up to a max of 2640, of course!
@Maria F
Insults and abuse comes in many forms for example wilful ignorance accusation and blind dogmatic arguing.
Im subject to all of them on here by people who then complain about being abused which is another form of abuse.
And actually yes those of us who take the time to comment on the day to day status of political reality understand there is indeed a war going on and its one we cant afford to lose because the consequences is nothing less than the quality of our lives for some people its their very lives itself.
@K1
Is the term “Self Awareness” something you might find interesting enough to look up?
Aw come on Mike, answer my question? Not too hard is it?
@K1
Why? you’ve avoided every one of mine.
Have I?
When?
@ Mike,
Your ego is dented. Let it go.
My impression is of you asserting a lot of what you think, which is fair enough Mike.
But what specific questions from you to me have I ‘avoided’?
@K1
Really? You’re going to pretend I haven’t asked any questions today? Including this one.
@Bob Mack
I don’t have an ego Im supposed to be a bot.
K1 @ 20:07,
It’s not his first series of angry disruptive diatribes, even under his current moniker, and you could be right, he may well have been here before. I’m beginning to mistrust all of these latterday “first name” posters. Too many unhappy common characteristics.
(I don’t know if it’s technically feasible, but it might be helpful if posters could accumulate a “troll” score from individual click responses on individual postings, so that Stu could quickly get a hint of who merited a closer look.)
Mike, I don’t really do riddles, what questions have you asked me specifically that I have avoided?
Just be straight forward with me. You cited this in response to me asking you if you had been on Wings under a different name before, which is a direct question to you.
Robert
Same question to you regarding self awareness. Do you understand the concept of abuse via wilful ignorance?
If you mean the ‘self awareness’ question that you posted, I have no idea what that meant in response to what I had posted. It seemed ‘odd’, and therefore I had no response to it. I do not see any other questions that you directed to me for me to avoid on this thread. Maybe you could direct me to them?
@K1
No Ive never been on Wings under a different name before. I posted as myself all throughout the 2014 Indyref campaign and since. The archives are still there go check em out and stop being a pathetic wee grievance Diva.
No how about answering my question regarding self awareness.
@rp
sassenach, sg or sais, w mean saxon, nowadays englishman.
english, the language is béarla
K1
You’re an abusive wee prick who clearly doesn’t understand when hes abusive because you lack self awareness.
Get it?
@Robert Peffers
Sorry to correct you Robert but the RAF Regiment is NOT an ‘elite’ unit. They’re called rock apes for a reason.
I think it unfortunate that some people on Wings, (who should know better) equate dissent with Unionism.
The very idea that all Yessers should think the same is ludicrous.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with disagreement and in my opinion should be welcomed, as long as it leads to logical and reasonable debate.
Accusing someone of being a Unionist troll because they beg to differ with the mainstream thinking of prolific commenters on this site seems to me to be rather lazy and unhelpful.
There are hundreds of thousands of readers here on this site and none of us should feel that we have all the answers, others should be allowed to express opinions free from attack.
Mike gives the game away with this.
“Which begs the question how many accounts have you had to return under now”?
………
That looks awfully like a reflective statement, an admission that in fact it is mike who “returns” under different accounts.
On that point, it also indicates that mike here is using a dynamic IP.
The Rev banned mac via other means than blocking his IP address, which suggests that is his preferred method of banning people, so it would make no difference if you set up a new account on the same IP address, as it would simply be blocked from the word go.
The only way to rock multiple accounts would be via a dynamic IP.
mac did it, and thought, like mike here, that he was untouchable by Stu.
It took a couple of days, but mac was made gone. Mike here will be off shortly, hence his mass abuse postings before he is gone.
Only the other day, rock made an almost identicle boast about Stu knowing who was what on here.
How is rock doing these days ? One post since that claim is it, minus his 640 years drivel ?
Only a matter of time mikey.
***Excellent article ~ here ah wee unexpected musical interlude hehe***
link to youtube.com
Popcorn and pickhammers in the bgm.
Keep pickin’…
Da-ra!
K1
Is that stupidity or misdirection being flung your way?
Ah canny tell… LOL
I save my harshest criticism and abuse for the UK Government and the UK state in general yet that counts for nothing its wilfully ignored in order to promote the idea that I am some kind of 5th columnist agitator ironically because of what I post.
I cant possibly be a critic of the UK state because I criticise the UK state openly yet I am without a doubt a critic of the Scottish Government and Indy movement as a whole because Im PERCEIVED to be critical of the SNP or FM or Indy movement.
You kind of see the levels of brainless fucked up stupidity and wilful pig ignorance it would take to come to these conclusions.
Mike says:
17 January, 2019 at 8:32 pm
K1
You’re an abusive wee prick who clearly doesn’t understand when hes abusive because you lack self awareness.
Get it?
Says an You’re an abusive wee prick who clearly doesn’t understand when hes abusive because you lack self awareness.
Get it?
Sounds like Teresa May speech writer.
@geeo
Wow. And I thought Desperation was a town in Nevada.
RP Raf regiment Elite ! Having seeved in the RAF when I was a boy, i can attest that the RAF regiment are anything but Elite!
@K1
Sounds like you’re being abusive again. Did you notice?
‘Mike says:
17 January, 2019 at 8:32 pm
K1
You’re an abusive wee prick who clearly doesn’t understand when hes abusive because you lack self awareness.
Get it?’
Mike, you won’t answer my question, and lied about me not answering your ‘questions’, because you didn’t ask me any questions specifically and now you attack/are being abusive to me in the manner you have been attacking/being abusive to anyone who has responded to any of your posts today?
Thing is Mike, it’s so clear who is being ‘abusive’ here. But you are insisting with no evidence that I’m the ‘abusive wee prick’ who doesn’t know it because I lack self awareness, when it’s self evidently you who lacks this quality of self awarenss in your very response to a simple question:
Have you posted on Wings before under a different name Mike?
Ah, just saw your answer, so you claim you haven’t been on under a different name Mike. Okay.
So why the abusive comment after that?
@Mike says: 17 January, 2019 at 2:11 pm:
” … No s30 means UDI. Kind of where we’ve always been heading since the result of an Indyref didn’t appear to be a foregone conclusion. “
Absolute havers, Mike.
It is not possible for a country/kingdom/state whose people are legally sovereign to declare a UDI.
If you are legally sovereign, as the Queen of England is in the Kingdom of England under independent English Law, then your word is law.
Except that under English law, in 1688, the Parliament of England passed a law that if William & Mary accepted the crowns of England, Wales and Ireland they had to legally delegate their legal, “Divine Right of Kings”, (a.k.a. sovereignty), to the parliament of England.
That left the pair still legally sovereign but had the parliament of England delegated to exercise the Kingdom’s sovereignty.
That made the Kingdom of England, “A constitutional Monarchy”. However, in 1688, the kingdom of Scotland was still independent and, in any case, they had changed the Scottish Rule of Law in 1320 to make the people, not the crown, sovereign and a sovereign’s word is law.
If your word is law you cannot declare UDI – especially seeing as under the terms of the Treaty of Union both rules of law are stated as being forever independent of each other.
Legally Scotland is, and always has been, (under the Treaty of Union), independent legally and an equally sovereign kingdom along with the Kingdom of England.
I’ll put that in a simpler way for you, Mike. You cannot Unilaterally declare yourself independent when the treaty that formed the United Kingdom plainly states that you are legally independent.
Alternatively, and yet again even simpler to understand – Scotland and England are two equally sovereign kingdoms that agreed to unite under one parliament but with two independent rules of Law.
In plain language Scotland is not leaving a union behind. You cannot have a continued union with only one kingdom left in it.
Scotland’s legally sovereign people are simply ending the union between the only two kingdoms of that union.
Every comment you post on Wings shows your ingrained unionist mindset, Mike.
You obviously think of the United Kingdom as the Kingdom of Scotland joining, “The Union”, so you naturally think that when the union breaks up. Scotland is leaving, “The Union”, but it isn’t so.
There was no union before 1 May 1707 and both Kingdoms that formed the union, thus, “United”, at exactly the same instant.
Conversely, when the Union ends, not by the Kingdom of Scotland, “Leaving the Union”, because there will be no union after they disunite, then both kingdoms revert to the legal, “Status Quo Ante”, (a.k.a. state existing before the union), no one is leaving behind a union – the union is simple ended.
There cannot be a UDI when two equally sovereign kingdoms part company. Just as there cannot be a continued marriage when two partners split up. You cannot have one partner still married to the other while the second other isn’t married to the first other.
O/T…. and VERY interesting….
From Maugham QC’s twitter account (nip over to Kirsty Hughes twitter and scroll down a wee bit) its more from the Andy Wightman case…
‘It does not need to be the instigating state requesting or implementing an extension to the
S 50. It can come from any of the 27, so long as there is a unanimous vote at the EU Council approving it. ‘
Other countries in the EU can defy WM and introduce a S50 extension for 2 years – even if WM doesn’t ask for it and doesn’t want it. HA, HA, HA, haaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
Go on Ireland, D’ya know you want to, g’wan, g’wan, g’wan, g’wan, g’wan.
D’ja boycer, (as they never say in Fife) or indeed d’ja whoor ye!!!!! This is superb . Possibly 😉
Pmsl Liz…he’s a hoot!
Re;Mike@8.06pm
Wow, ‘high end autism’? absolute disgrace to refer to anyone in a negative manner and to use a totally inappropriate term about an actual disablity, to attempt to insult a commentor on WOS.
How dare you use AUTISM to insult someone. People with autism deserve respect, care, support and acceptance. They also have rights under the Equality Act 2010! You are in breach of that act right now.
You should get the hell off of Wings for this disgraceful and insulting comment, it’s an utter utter disgrace.
People with autism are most often the least self centred, and in fact the most caring people on the planet who suffer a great deal because of that.
Take a hike Mike, off a very high cliff preferably.
mike cassidy says:
17 January, 2019 at 6:07 pm
Does Northern Ireland ‘require’ a section 30 or equivalent before a unification vote?
The Good Friday Agreement states that the Secretary of State should call a border poll if it appears there is a majority for reunification. This is to be done through an order of council. Should is an interesting word for a treaty. Very different to will. I’m confident that I should win Euromillions on Friday less confident that I will. This is Westminster we are talking about. Treaties and agreements are just a minor distraction. You can see them trying create a similar lack of clarity in negotiations after a yes vote. Blair’s stolen seas should return to Scottish jurisdiction. Preparations to relocate Trident should begin by 2025. Ruth Davidson should tell the truth when being interviewed by the BBC etc.l
If the squirrel had not run across the road the media would have had to tell us about the civil war In Scotland.
Thanks to those involved, I know it is just a game, we now know who the trolls are, my input don’t engage.
Nicola is telling us to:- ”Get out there and make the case for Yes.”
This is IT folks. If you aren’t doing so already think of joining those who are. WE need you NOW. YOUR COUNTRY NEEDS YOU.
…………………………
‘Depeche Mode – Where’s the Revolution – GLASGOW 26/3/17.’
link to youtube.com
……………………………..
@ Sunshine says at 5:46 pm (and Capella) …. ”Petra – Yes, the Guardian opinion piece is exactly what Rev Stu suggested months ago on this site. You’ve got to say, the man is quite the analyst of situations and possible outcomes /solutions. Hats off to him. He must be right in 95% of his predictions. Not bad. Always room for improvement?”
Too bad Stu didn’t opt to get into politics. If he had he could have been FM / PM by now and sorted the country out with his ”hammers” and telling the Tories, BBC – the MSM in general – to get to F***. They’d be so shocked it would probably have worked.
On a serious note he’s one highly intelligent, perceptive and persevering guy and all I can say is thank God we’ve had someone like him on our side. We (Scotland) would NEVER EVER have got this far without him.
@schrodingers cat @ 6.29pm
I salute your optimism. I’ve stuck them on the possible yes list, just below a Mr Mundell.
@Mike says: 17 January, 2019 at 2:19 pm:
” … The ONLY possible evidence that could indicate Theresa May voted remain would be a copy of her ballot paper after she filled it in. Do you have one?”
No one needs a ballot paper to prove the point.
What there is. Mike, is an accurate record of every vote held in the HOC. Hansard keeps those records. So anyone can trace the general trend of any MP on the whole Brexit votes taken in Parliament. It is not believable that May would vote in the actual Ballot one way then vote the other way on the many parliament votes taken during Commons debates before and after the ballot.
Does anybody know when the deadline to accept the EU deal by the UK gov is after which the UK will be crashing out of the EU on 29th of March if it does not pass the deal?
Presumably it is not just a question of passing the deal at the last minute, but there will have to be other legislation in place too and the EU parliament will have to pass the deal too, so I don’t think the deadline of 29th March branded by the MSM would be very realistic. I guess the “deal” if passed will have to be passed before that to allow for the legislation to be completed and to give time the EU parl to pass it too.
A50 cannot be delayed forever either. If I am not mistaken, Guy Verhofstadt said that A50 cannot be extended beyond the European Elections, which are in May. So there isn’t really an awful lot to wait here. We have been waiting for well over 2 years for our indyref. Surely we can stay put for another 4 months and see the whole fiasco unravel.
Now, lets not forget that the EU tax avoidance regulation should be implemented from 1st January 2019. The UK may get away with not implementing it if it is really leaving on the 29th March, but if the leave date is delayed and a delay in A50 is sought, one of the conditions by the EU may well be to implement those pesky regulations. I wonder if that is the reason why May and some tories are so desperate to leave the EU by 29th March…
Is it not also the case that an A50 extension is only possible if there is either a ge called or a second eu ref. They are not going to allow it to be extended just because the Tories can’t get her deal through parliament?
K1 @ 8.55
I jist wisnt sure whither tae tell ye
Dinnie Fash yerself…or Dinnie Flash yerself…
Lol
I see at least one of the 77th ooted himself as i didnt say any names, but like tommy troot he was on the hook.
It did the job Liz…draws them out and they expose themselves for what they are time and again. Lol
@Artyhetty
Maybe Im suffering from high end autism or Aspergers then eh? If that’s the case wouldn’t you look the tool.
@Peffers
If that’s true then why don’t you tell us what you found when you did it?
Well said, Artyhetty, and a lot of autistic people – my daughter included – are INCREDIBLY smart (with the test results to prove it), innovative, and focussed individuals.
Maria F @ 9.22
I think you might be right…
I’ve been struggling all day to remember a conversation on here about an absolute cut off date as January 21st,but I canny mind the way of it?
When Westminster states the they must respect the will off the people for the non binding EU referendum, then when we have our non binding Scottish independence referendum then presumably the same rules apply.
After all it is them that have set the precedent that non binding referendums are in fact binding.
And the idea that you can only have one referendum is also false, since we have already two EU (EEC) referendums and two devolution referendums.
@Peffers
You’re off once again on your merrygoround of fantasy wannabe reality. The UK state doesn’t do Democracy legitimacy legality peoples sovereignty or any other Disney world political consideration. What is right and what isn’t doesn’t concern Westminster. What concerns Westminster is what it can get away with and possession is 10/10th of the their law.
Stop gibbering like a demented wee arse over what should be and face the reality of what will be for once in yer blinkered one eyed little life bubble.
Mike dribbled this:
“No Ive never been on Wings under a different name before. I posted as myself all throughout the 2014 Indyref campaign and since”
…….
Thats odd, because i just had a quick peek through old 2014 posts from january to referendum day, randomly checking posts btl and the name mike never showed up once.
What are the odds of that Mr 30 posts a topic ?
@Liam
She sounds awfie like me perhaps I am autistic? How would that make the 2 of you look?
See that’s how important self awareness is.
Mike @ 7.44 pm.
Are you describing yourself? Are you admitting that you are not a very nice
person? Your self-assessment would appear to allude to the opinion of many of the posters on this site.
@geeo
What are the odds that you’re a pathetic wee wilful lying git?
Rhetorical question because clearly you just lied your stupid wee arse off again.
@Mike says: 17 January, 2019 at 2:21 pm:
” … So tell me what other path do we take without an S30 that doesn’t involve UDI?”
You just don’t pay attention, Mike.
The law of Scotland from 1320 states that the people, not the crown are legally sovereign.
The Treaty of Union that formed the United Kingdom states that the two signatory kingdoms, (and the Union is a union of only two kingdoms and is not thus, “A Country”), must forever retain their own independent legal systems.
The word of sovereigns is law- thus if the legally sovereign people of Scotland, (that is a majority thereof), then that is the law. In the first place, if Westminster wants to claim overall sovereignty, then Westminster is claiming that The Treaty of Union is void and does not apply. The union is a bipartite agreement – as such it becomes void if both parties do not agree.
To state that bluntly – Westminster is actually acting as the Parliament of the United Kingdom and the Kingdom of England simultaneously and it cannot legally be both and still be a United Kingdom Parliament.
It is the de facto parliament of the Kingdom of England yet no one has been elected to a parliament of England since 1 May 1707. Why do they need EVEL when there is no members of the parliament of England?
As I already pointed out your entire mindset is that of a dyed in the wool unionist. You simply are pushing all the illegal things Westminster has done that blow the Treaty of Union wide open while stating them as facts.
There is no actual legal United Kingdom if the Treaty of Union is not in force. Conversely, if the Treaty of Union is no longer in force there cannot be a united Kingdom.
You cannot run a united kingdom as four individual countries with one of those countries devolving its powers to the other three and it still be a bipartite union of kingdoms and if it isn’t a bipartite union of kingdoms there is no united kingdom.
@Daisy Walker
Regarding the A50 extension, if it needs to be a unanimous vote presumably the UK can vote against it as they are currently still members.
@Sandy
Well its all perspective after all.
@Peffers
You managed to post a shite load of meaningless waffle in order to fail to answer the question you posed at the beginning of your post. Now that’s proof positive of demented at work.
@Peffers
When May voted in the referendum she didn’t vote within the House of Commons she voted within her constituency so the HOC wont have a copy you absolute howling wee imbecile.
The power of adverts and the feeling of repetition:
link to youtube.com
On and on…
Hehe. 😉
we get rid of Rock and Mike turns up.
Stop the abuse. Have you no arguments?
It’s clear Mike is only on Wings to wreck this stream and create a false/poor impression of independence supporters. Why would he do this? No prizes for correct answers.
All he is actually doing is creating a true impression of Britnats. I think Mike would feel more at home btl The Scotsman.
How fondly I remember internet newsgroups, were you could mute people and their post would never appear on your screen. The web blog btl system has never reached this level of sophistication unfortunately.
I thought Mike was Danny returned but a “Mike” was here long before Danny, even back in 2014. You can google (cut and paste all the next line)
“Mike says:” site:wingsoverscotland.com
and in Firefox for instance, under tools put in a date range for 1st Jan 2014 to 31st Dec 2014 and you get a fair few hits. Seems to me some good postings in there, currency and oil.
Robert Peffers and other sovereign people of Scotland,instead of arguing the toss on Wings,here is where you complain to the EU about the EU and UK failing to respect Scotland’s sovereignty.
Best of luck.
link to ec.europa.eu
On yer bike Mike,
You obnoxious wee tyke
Robert Peffers @ 8.55pm
Since pre 2014 many here & elswhere have ref to Indy Scotland as iScotland , however when ref whats left we have usually ref it as rUK . Regulars will remember the fun when it was fist used by sorry cannot remember the r was REMAINDER / RUMP etc etc
Your posts have suddenly made me realise that after Scotland is Indy the remainder will actually be the Kingdom Of England?
Jeezo, cannot believe I catch on so quick. smiley fing.
The EU petition [on Forward as One website by Martin Keatings] has over 5000 signatures now but I agree with an earlier poster who said that to impress the EU we need more like 50,000+.
So please everyone sign, share and alert your local Yes group.
O/T the Roz Paterson GoFundMe that the Rev tweeted about has reached £98000 in 8 days. Roz has an aggressive cancer and needs urgent treatment in the USA. Target is £500,000.
Her behind Corbyn on the news, looks like wan o they former slab msps to me.
They huv a few right enough.
Dr Jim says:
17 January, 2019 at 2:26 pm
“However…the Scottish parliament has the legal right to carry out as many referendums on any subject they so choose,”
How many referendums has the Scottish parliament carried out since it was “re-convened”?
Apart from the 2014 independence referendum with Westminster’s section 30 order.
The section 30, for want of a better description, is a red herring. Westminster will only grant one when they think there is no chance of an independence referendum being won. Therefore we will only get one when we don’t want one i.e. The odds are against us.
No point in bothering too much if we get refused a sect 30 as that means Westminster are worried we will win. So let’s hope the Maybot refuses a sect 30 again.
Sturgeon should then tell the Maybot “now is not the time for Scotland to leave the EU but it is the time for Scotland to leave the UK “
Wales dodged a bullet there.
There should be limits to how low you will go.
For anyone’s that’s interested, a friend and I went up to Edinburgh today to the demo at Parliament. Just getting the dust off the Saltire and getting the feet broken back in for the upcoming referendum in ‘a matter of weeks’.
It was a good natured, compact group of about 150 people and a fair few ‘Dugs for Indy’ plus the Great Dane – much more than you would ever think from the photograph showing on the BBC Scotland website which looks like about 4 people and their dog attended.
Lots of beeps and honks from passing traffic and a few curious tourists taking selfies draped in Saltires.
A good, if cold, day.
I spoke to three women flying the WOS flag, introduced myself and asked if they were posters. No they replied, only ‘ Lurkers’ so I’ve encouraged them to contribute and hopefully they will soon.
Met another Lady, a farmer from near Linlithgow and she said that all the farmers around her are definitely anti-Brexit and pro-Indy.
Sorry Mike – it rather seems to me that you are just playing silly buggers and have no intention of answering the questions I posed you. Which makes me wonder what your true intent is here on WoS?
I think I’ve a fair idea what your ‘game’ is. Now, you’ve wasted enough of my time with your non-answers so, alas, I won’t be biting again.
@yesindyref2
Thank you that is very helpful and provides the indisputable evidence that the cunt posting as geeo is a troll. Bet you wont find Geeo going back last year let alone to 2014.
Sometimes I have look at the labourHame site to see what they think of independence. There’s a btl commenter called mike who always rubbishes anything said both in the piece and btl.
Initially I welcomed this, but the vitriol used was starting to put me off, especially when other btl commenters were so respectful but mike was so abusive in response.
Now I don’t know if WOS mike and labourHame mike are one and the same (sound the same to me), but I am starting to think that, whoever it is, is trying to put possible no to yes people off by tarnishing all yes people as mad nationalists
@proud Cybernat
I can absolutely categorically state without compunction that my intent was NEVER to come on Wings to specifically answer your questions if that helps?
@ Liz g (9:32pm) ………. ”I’ve been struggling all day to remember a conversation on here about an absolute cut off date as January 21st, but I canny mind the way of it?”
”NO DEAL STATEMENT
If there is no deal by Jan. 21, 2019, the British government must make a statement within five days on what the United Kingdom plans to do, according to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act of 2018.”
link to reuters.com
OT
Mike-Schmike(/u>
I do not do personal insults, nor do I ue pejorative language. However, in your case I will make an exception.
Cubby
Ian blackford touched on this ion one of his recent speeches this week in Parliament.
He gave a brief resume of what had happened in Scotland since 2014,
how the Vow had never been fulfilled,
the GE which returned 56 MP’s on a mandate for and Indy ref,
the Holyrood election which returned an SNP government on an Indy mandate,
the Remain vote in the EU ref,
the trashing of the Continuity Bill lots more and of course the ACE card.
He explained to a hushed House of Commons that in this very room, the House had agreed that Scotland is a Sovereign nation because of the Debate over the Claim of Right ( which none of them remember having taken place for the simple reason that there were only about 5 non-Scottish MP’s present in the Chamber during the Debate). Scotland’s Claim of Right was accepted, unopposed by this House and as a result, when the Scottish Government present a request for Section 30 for the inevitable Indy ref, they will be unable to deny it because they have acknowledged the Claim of Right.
The House stayed very quiet throughout.
A fine speech and a great moment.
Mike
You brit nat trolls really could make use of a thesaurus. Lol
geeo says
“Thats odd, because i just had a quick peek through old 2014 posts from january to referendum day, randomly checking posts btl and the name mike never showed up once.
What are the odds of that Mr 30 posts a topic ?”
Yesindyref2 says
“I thought Mike was Danny returned but a “Mike” was here long before Danny, even back in 2014. You can google (cut and paste all the next line)
“Mike says:” site:wingsoverscotland.com
and in Firefox for instance, under tools put in a date range for 1st Jan 2014 to 31st Dec 2014 and you get a fair few hits. Seems to me some good postings in there, currency and oil.”
I can almost here the sound of somebodies arse getting skelped with a paddle.
“and provides the indisputable evidence that the cunt posting as geeo is a troll”
It doesn’t prove anything of the sort.
@Hamish100
You Britnat trolls under the bed paranoids could make use of a good therapist.
Cactus 9 46pm
Hopefully we won’t be going on for much longer Cactus.
yesindyref2
It kind of proves he didn’t check back over the archives after claiming he did. Kind of looks like a troll to me.
@Tom Busza
And in doing so will once again highlight my point about self awareness.
We’ve ‘sparred’ before Mike?
You do have a rather ‘fighty’ aspect to your postings…but lately yes…you’ve become more agitated, no doubt. Why you getting at everyone on here thought, we are apparently on the same side?
I wonder if Kirsty Blackman will get a chance to mention the “I” word (Independence) on Question Time tonight.
And if she does will we get the customery English response of rolling about the floor laughing when they hear it???
@yesindyref2
Can you find geeo posting in the archives? He has nothing prior to Dec 2018.
Come on Mike, geeo has been posting on here since at least 2014
RE The EU petition that Sarah so kindly reminded us of @ 9.57
Listening to the Lord’s Debate about “The Union” tonight,more than one of them took great delight in pointing out that ” Scotland would be in a very cold place should it leave the UK because it would be out of both Unions “.
They inferred that Scotland would not ever be in a position to leave the UK Union,because the only reason that such a thing was feasible was when “we” were in the EU like in 2014.
It would infact take many years of being out of both Unions before we could renegotiate our way back in to the EU
(I know)
Now logic and memory doesn’t seem to be their strong point,and I mention it only to indicate where they are going with the anti Indy rhetoric.
But…
The petition could help mitigate this approach !
If we can get some comfort from the EU about our position post the Yes vote ….this could only be a good thing..
Soooo
Can everyone mind to sign and share please!!!!
Perhaps some kind Winger will put the link back up?
Oh FGS, we have just got rid of one and clamped down on another. Scroll back and count the number of posts by this guy PLUS the responses. The name of the game is disruption of the site and of course putting people off of visiting. Right now he seems to be winning. Ignore and he / she will eventually go away or be banned.
……………………………..
Corbyn is beeliebags about Benn, Cooper and Mann visiting Big T. Tory and Labour Parties imploding, again. It can only be beneficial for us.
‘Corbyn tells Labour MPs to boycott Brexit talks with government until Theresa May drops no-deal threats.’
link to independent.co.uk
Brexit.
After the incoming Brexit storm has left behind the effects of its destructive force on Westminster, then will be the time for the Scottish Government to properly evaluate Scotland’s independence strategy.
I suspect Nicola is already making plans on this basis.
Well, sovereign Scots, I’ve sent in my complaint to the EU, arguing Scotland’s sovereign people’s democratic will has not been respected by UK parliament and the EU, as Scotland’s democratic will was to Remain in the EU. However, the UK state ignored that by making it a UK-wide advisory EU Ref and /or failed to consult Scotland and treat it’s people as sovdereign.
UK State applied English ideas of sovereignty, that UK Parliament is sovereign, so UK Parliament voted to trigger Art. 50 of the Lisbon Treaty.
That violated my integrity and other sovereign Scots’ integrity by ignoring our democratic, sovereign free will to drag us out the EU against our will, when we have legal rights under the EU charter of fundamental rights and fundamental Scottish sovereign constitutional rights within the UK, that have been ignored by the UK and EU. So there.
So cancel Article 50 negotiations. cos youse both are acting unlawfully by ignoring the sovereign Scots who decided to remain or were not asked properly for their sovereign consent.
Hamish 100 @ 10.28 pm.
These trolls would baffle even the best therapist.
To all posters, “IGNORE ALL MIKE POSTS”
geeo has been posting here for years.
There could be one or two Mikes. One of them is in for a fail.
For the love of God, can people STOP rising to mike!!
OT
As the Rev says, “Do not engage with trolls” or words to that effect. In this case I will makwe an exception.
Mike-Schmike
I do not do personal insults, nor do I ue pejorative language. However, in your case, I will make an exception.
The word that comes to mind in you case is Fuckwit.
Fuckwit (definition) Urban Dictionary:
1. A person who is not only lacking in clue but is apparently unable or unwilling to acquire clue even when handed it on a plate in generous portions.
2. A fuck-wit is a individual with absolute no wits or intelligence and tries to come off smart when really they are just a fuck wit.
3. A person so lacking in intelligence that they cannot grasp the simplest concepts.
You have an obsession with UDI. You want Scotland to declare UDI, without undertsanding the basic concepts of UDI. You once claimed that Poland had declared UDI, when it clearly hadn’t.
You once said:
Fucking spare me Im from Poland (my emphasis) so anything said about Poland by me cannot be wrong shite.
(link to wingsoverscotland.com).
Well, for someone from Poland, you have a remarcable command of Scottish/English vernacular.
I know that you will reply with an insulting message, starting with a misrepresentation of my name. I do know that you live in an alternative world with its own reality. Maybe that world of yours is a huge flat disk on the back of 4 elephants being carried through the universe on the back of a giant green turtle.
geeo’s first comment on Wings on 20th February 2014:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
You’re talking shite Mike, if I can find it in 5 minutes anyone can
Equestrian Time just started on Radio 5 Live if anybuddy interested…
sassenach 10.47 pm
Sorry…was typing and missed your warning there.
The Rory on Question Time,,,is that the same Rory who tried to build a Cairn in Annan???
K1
We all want the same outcome but it seems some people refuse to understand what its going to take and entail to get it. Some people expect a fluffy lovey dovey transference of constitutional authority after a fair fight and campaign where the sovereign rights of the people and sensible argument coupled with truth wins the day. Totally denying all the reality they’ve experienced since 2007 and the beginning of hope.
We are still in the Union because the UK state doesn’t do Democracy or acknowledgement of any sovereignty over their own. We had a tainted referendum where full control was handed over to a UK state quango which allowed unprecedented levels of access to voting papers while disallowing a poll exit count. Where a campaign coined project fear was allowed to run unfettered shitting all over the truth employing fear intimidation and threats in order to impose its will on the result.
And all of that when they were high in the polls. What do you think it will be like now that the polls are telling them its anybodies game?
Do you think they are above putting troops on the streets of Glasgow Edinburgh Aberdeen and Dundee in order to enforce a “Now is not the time” mandate from Fascist May?
That’s the point Ive made several times that has me abused and attacked from several quarters accusing me of pro yoon trolling because some folk wont deal with reality.
We’re not going to get a fair and meaningful Indyref as long as the UK state cant be sure of the result. That’s a cold hard fact we’re going to have to deal with sooner or later.
Want to know why Trumps ‘fake news’ agenda is a winning ticket?
No one on England gives a shit about northern ireland and NO ONE in the press is saying it.
an agenda of silence and misdirection no longer works
@Mike says: 17 January, 2019 at 9:35 pm:
” … You’re off once again on your merrygoround of fantasy wannabe reality.”
That’s absolutely hilarious, Mike.
Every single thing I have posted is a proven fact. I’m quoting from the very documents that formed the United Kingdom.
Each and every thing you have claimed is either not provable as legal or already proven to be illegal or even worse your own erroneous personal opinions.
… The UK state doesn’t do Democracy legitimacy legality peoples sovereignty or any other Disney world political consideration.”
Ah! There it is- the unionist in you coming out into the open and the more rattled you become the more your unionist self comes out into the open.
You have just accused me of fantasising over what you say in the same breath is the reality.
” … What is right and what isn’t doesn’t concern Westminster. What concerns Westminster is what it can get away with and possession is 10/10th of the their law.”
Well no possession is not – ask anyone done for the crime of handling stolen goods a.k.a. Reset.
The thing is that the United Kingdom is now under investigation over several things by the United Nations and they are coming under several investigations in the international courts. One of the matters under review is the question of the Scottish Claim of Right.
Now here’s the point – just because a law is ignored will most certainly not see the perpetrator judged as not-guilty in a court of law and the Westminster Parliament, The United Kingdom, has been under investigation by the United Nations and there are outstanding matters in several international courts of law.
Some very old chickens are finally coming home to roost. Just within the past two or three weeks there has been reports of European nations willing to back Scottish independence. Let’s face it the Westminster Establishment has not endeared itself in either Europe recently or across the World in many past centuries.
Thing is, as long as the people of Scotland, Ireland and Wales were happy to sit there under English rule no outsiders were going to get involved. Now they are for there is every sign that the United Kingdom’s days are numbered.
There is every sign that Ireland will unify and there are a majority of voters in Northern Ireland who want to reunify Ireland. There is not as yet any clear evidence that there is a majority for independence in Scotland but many people, including myself, believe that there already is a majority for independence. Wales is a bit different having been so long under English rule and with far too many of English descent long established in Wales.
Anyway, the point is that there is ample documented evidence that Westminster has been breaking laws and treaties for a very long time and getting away with it. Now, though, the United Kingdom is not nearly the World power it once was. Now here’s a fact for you. I began an apprenticeship in Rosyth Dockyard in 1952. It is a fact the to get to a ship you were working on you had to climb across a minimum of five ships to get to your workplace and that was at every available berth across the entire yard.
Not only that but in each of the main drydocks there would be up to three ships and the largest dry dock had an extra caisson, (dry-dock gate), so as to be able to use this largest dry-dock as two dry-docks. This was the dry-dock where they built the new large aircraft carriers.
So where is all that naval power these days? There wasn’t even a destroyer or a frigate in Scottish waters when a Russian Carrier anchored off the Moray Firth. They had to press an old, clapped out destroyer with only one of two engines working into service at Portsmouth and dispatch that to Scotland.
The Russian Carrier was fully armed with planes and missiles and could have hit any target in the United Kingdom without reply. Few countries are frightened of the UK any more and some are openly backing Scotland as, it seems, is the EU.
Yer on a hiding to nothing, Mike. Your Britnat nuts are showing again. I’ve been rather busy the past couple of days but I’m reading that Nicola has confirmed she is about to call indyref2 and I’m sure she would not be doing that unless she knew there was a majority for indy. There was a big lesson learned over the last one. This time the push will not be peaking too soon and there will be much more supervision with perhaps the EU officially observing the procedure and the counting.