The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland

Lies packed tight

Posted on June 27, 2014 by

You might be able to find fault with the Scottish tabloid media’s honesty, readers, but you can’t criticise its brevity. Take this page 2 piece from this morning’s Daily Record.


Just a few dozen words squeezed into five short sentences. Let’s see how many lies the Record’s unnamed reporter manages to get across in them.

The story, which is picked up in most papers today to varyingly lurid degrees, is an exchange between Prof. Patrick Dunleavy of the London School of Economics and a colleague, Prof Iain McLean.

“Costs of setting up separate Scottish state could top £2bn”

That’s a lie. “Topping” £2bn would mean a figure MORE than £2bn. In fact neither Prof McLean nor Prof Dunleavy at any point comes up with a higher sum. Prof McLean’s worst-case analysis is a total figure that’s “probably closer to £2 billion than £1 billion, which is a very long way short of saying “over £2bn”.

“It would cost £1.5 billion to set up an independent Scotland, according to Alex Salmond’s favourite expert.”

Assuming the Record is referring to Prof. Dunleavy, that’s a lie. Prof. Dunleavy is absolutely unequivocal that that figure does NOT refer to “set-up” costs, but “transition” costs spread across a decade.

But even then, his actual estimate is far below what the Record claims as a categorical fact (note the absence of the phrase “up to” in the Record’s piece).


What Prof. Dunleavy actually estimates as the net transition cost is “less than £650 million”, including the £200m in set-up costs. The Record then somehow translates “less than £650m” to £1.5bn – an exaggeration of 130%.

Prof. Dunleavy at no point states as his OWN belief that it could get anywhere near £1.5bn in any event – he merely notes that that figure is the maximum which could possibly be arrived at on the worst possible interpretation of figures produced by Prof. Robert Young of Western Ontario University in Canada, which related to the independence of Quebec, not Scotland.

Prof. Young has in fact comprehensively rubbished the UK government’s claims that his figures represent any sort of valid comparison for Scotland. He in fact puts no figure of any kind on the cost of the process in the case of Scotland and the UK.

“Two reports on the cost of duplicating government services for a Scottish state put the price as high as £2 billion.”

No they haven’t. That’s a lie. Professor Dunleavy mentions a possible theoretical maximum of £1.5bn. Professor McLean says “probably closer to £2bn than £1bn”. Professor Young doesn’t identify a figure at all. None of them actually reach £2bn.

Also, there’s only actually been one “report on the cost of duplicating government services for a Scottish state” – Professor Dunleavy’s. Professor McLean has critiqued that report, rather than producing his own, and Professor Young produced a report on Quebec, not Scotland (which he wrote in 1995, almost two decades ago).

“Professor Patrick Dunleavy, of the London School of Economics, said a separate Scotland could face costs of up to £1.5 billion. That’s up from an earlier estimate of £200 million for the initial set-up costs the First Minister was keen to quote.”

No it isn’t. That’s a lie. Professor Dunleavy’s estimate for “the initial set-up costs” hasn’t changed at all. It’s still £200m, with another £400m of transition costs spread over a decade. And he at no point stated that the £1.5bn figure was his own view. Indeed, he explicitly says the £1.5bn figure is “not a number I accept”.

“Professor Iain McLean of the University of Oxford argued the cost could be ‘closer to £2 billion’.”

That’s the only true sentence in the entire article. But even that’s a complete misrepresentation in the context of the headline. Even the absolute maximum suggested by Professor McLean didn’t reach £2bn, let alone top it, he’s talking about completely different things to Professor Dunleavy anyway, and he freely admits that he’s just plucking “ballpark” figures out of the air, not doing a proper study.

This article is about eight times as long as the Record’s. But that’s how long it takes to pull apart the intense burst of falsehood it fires at its readers in the space of a few seconds. Scotland’s media spews out so many lies, keeping the record straight is like trying to hold back a tsunami with a cocktail umbrella. But we do what we can.

Print Friendly, PDF & Email

2 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. 27 06 14 10:44

    Start-up, the spin cycle | Are We Really Better Together?

  2. 27 06 14 11:42

    Lies packed tight | Scottish Independence News

213 to “Lies packed tight”

  1. Drew says:

    Excellent as usual

  2. steviecosmic says:


  3. Bill Fraser says:

    Never mind the quality feel the width.

    Since we are owed £1.3 trillion and we will be keeping all our wealth in Scotland £200 Million is not a high price to pay since we can save our proportion of this –

    “Elsewhere, in its equipment plan for 2012, the MoD has published figures showing that the UK’s annual spending on nuclear weapons is set to increase from £2.5 billion pounds annually in 2012 to £4.5 billion by 2022.”

  4. Patrick Roden says:

    So people who read the Daily Record, do so in the knowledge they are being fed lies and misinformation.

    Or in Headline News, ‘Record Readers taken for Fools’

    If you’re head is zipped up the back, you will trust the Daily Redcoat.

  5. Chris G says:

    I’m sharing your posts more and more Rev, and I’m getting less and less on my fb from better together peeps. Maybe the message is getting through…or maybe I’m just getting unfriended a lot lol. If we do manage to get Independence we’re going to need to take a long hard look at how Scottish media can be made to be accountable for deliberately not reporting the truth, because the last thing we’ll need in an emergent nation is the scaremongering and lies to continue.

  6. Hugh Wallace says:

    Not having the will power to tackle all the financial aspects of the arguments between Profs McLean and Dunleavy, I picked up on something else within Prof. Dunleavy’s follow-up article which will interest readers.

  7. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    At the Daily Record we pride ourselves on journalism that is honest,fair and accurate.

    Our journalists adhere to the Editors’ Code of Conduct, which sets the benchmark for professional standards and is enforced by the Press Complaints Commission.

    To ask for an inaccuracy to be corrected, all you have to do is: Phone 0141 309 3000,
    email readerseditor@dailyrecord>
    or write to The Editor, Daily Record, One Central Quay, Glasgow G3 8DA

    That’s what it says on page 2 of the Record

  8. Dr Ew says:

    Wait… the Daily Record LIED?!?!

  9. gordoz says:

    @Patrick Roden – all very true.

    Doesn’t matter who at the Record; their all in cahoots with SLABOUR and by default the LAB/Con/Lib/Ukip coalition.

    Swithering Labour supporters come on ?
    Its complete garbage.

  10. alexicon says:

    It’s a lying rag of a paper, the quicker it folds the better.
    Hope your reading this Daily Record.

  11. Nation Libre says:

    You must be up to your neck in law suits Rev what with all the people you are calling liars. Closure of this site must be imminent, unless…

  12. heedtracker says:

    Grotesque daily ukok propaganda display there from Daily Record but its still early and there’s dozens just like them across Scotland.

  13. MajorBloodnok says:

    Have they forgotten that the FT back in February said we’d be £7bn better off from day one, if I may quote an obscure website called Wings something something…?

    Looks like it.

  14. desimond says:

    Scotland : the only country were some see the value of Independence in pound signs.

  15. Camz says:

    @Chris G

    “or maybe I’m just getting unfriended a lot lol”

    Probably. I’ve found people online and in the real world that avoid you if you have Yes tendencies. At first I couldn’t understand it. Then I took the MSM into account and realised they are being told to distance themselves from Yes folk.

    Sad, but true.

  16. HandandShrimp says:

    I have always found the Record to be the most incompetent and dishonest of all the daily papers. A lot of it is simply because the writers are not particularly proficient at their job. However, in this instance I think it is clear that this is direct and unequivocal political spin. It is a deliberate attempt to mislead.

    It will be interesting to see how many polite but firm corrections they allow below the line. The Record comments sections are so heavily deleted they would put a North Korean paper to shame.

  17. Phil Robertson says:

    Misleading headline indeed!

    But while we’re on the subject of misleading, it now appears that the £200M that Mr Salmond latched on to so quickly was a result of Prof Dunleavy’s separating “set-up costs” from “transition arrangement costs” and “disentangling costs”. In other words, the £200M has always been far too low a figure for the costs of separation.

    So if we go back to the original estimates in May, it now appears that the Treasury’s estimate, that was so disparaged on WoS, turns out to be the better estimate.

    The real worry for an iScotland is that the Scottish Government and their advisors are not good with numbers especially those with a £ sign in front.

  18. mathie says:

    Even if it does cost £2 billion, its a substantially better deal than funding existing Englandcentric deals that have zero benefit to Scotland.
    I think we should be thanking the Daily Rag for exposing the savings that Scotland will make when it becomes independent ????????????

  19. desimond says:

    Few will admit it but almost every political journalist reads it(WIngs), from news editors looking for stories to follow up to producers keen to keep on top of the big political issues of the day. Its forensic and partisan deconstructions of No campaign messages and media reporting – Campbell doesn’t see much difference – are informative and infuriating in equal measure

  20. Bill McLean says:

    Phil Robertson – see Major Bloodknok post above. With respect I think I’d trust FT opinion before yours!

  21. Grouse Beater says:

    The ‘freedom of the press’ in the UK means the freedom to publish its own lies and subvert the democratic process.

  22. Macart says:

    I wonder if Mr Dunleavy will set the various titles straight for misrepresenting his work? He certainly took off like a greyhound when the treasury did.

    Regardless, another cracker Rev.

  23. galamcennalath says:

    Excellent destructive analysis.

    The Record has a big readership and let’s face it, some of their heads do zip up at the back (as suggested above).

    However, many more readers will have something more substantial between their ears. They must be becoming fed of being treated like fools.

    All the lies and negativity, week in week out, will be successful … in driving sickened and awakened voters to YES. I’m now certain of that.

  24. goldenayr says:

    Expect the Daily Retard to proclaim the “second coming” with this one tomorrow.

    If they can spin that dross,what will they do with that?

  25. HandandShrimp says:


    Not so, The treasury tried to palm off their initial £2.7b figure as set-up costs – that is Year 0 costs. When challenged they reduced this to £1.5b saying the earlier figure was a mistake. Prof Dunleavy challenged the £1.5b figure as a misunderstanding of his work also, pointing out that the Year 0 set up costs are about £200m. The disentangling costs are spread out over 10 years and include costs for replacement systems that have to be replaced at some point anyway. The £1.5b is also a worst case scenario with a much lower figure being suggested as the actual figure. If it is 0.4% of GDP then that is about half of what we would be paying in overseas aid (nearly half of what we pay in overseas aid now).

    These figures are not difficult and they are certainly not show stoppers by any stretch of the imagination. You don’t buy a new house and then carp about the cost of a tin of paint.

  26. alexicon says:

    That’s what YOU want to believe Phil.

  27. Dennis Webster says:

    Did anyone phone the Record to report these inaccuracies? Phone number and email address given in post above.

  28. Derek M says:

    hey Daily Record i dont care if its 10 billion we can afford it and it will be 10 billion spent in Scotland not siphoned off to the westminster gravy train ,i dont get all this doom and gloom you would think they didnt want Scotland to have the best modern infrastructural money can buy ,or that it will create jobs put money in peoples pockets so they can spend or dont you muppets understand a consumer society you know the very thing that lets people have enough money to buy your stupid rag.

  29. Nuada says:

    Well, the clear implication here is that journalists are not to be trusted, indeed, that the might actually be less than exemplars of virtue. Surely this cannot be so? Why, that would mean it was NOT the Sun wot won it, or that Liverpool fans at Hillsborough did NOT beat up police officers tending the injured, or that Europe is NOT completely composed of swarthy foreigners determined to get to Britain to live off the taxpayer. No, Stu, I think you’re going a bit far with this.

  30. Giving Goose says:

    The Daily Record effectively supports and is actively working for a Conservative Party re-election victory in 2015.
    That will be the consequence of the lies and distortions that it prints.
    I’m positive that they are aware of this, hence the obvious conclusion that the Daily Record is working to achieve that outcome.
    The Daily Record supports the Tory Party!

  31. donald anderson says:

    Most Daily Reptile readers only read the sport on the back pages or the celebrity or gossip columns and only glance at the huge headlines in the front.

  32. Robert Kerr says:

    When I worked in technical sales good advice from a colleague was.

    “An estimate is always wrong”.

    I don’t care about the costs. I want to make history in September.

    “le desespoir est un insult a l’avenir”.

  33. Macart says:


    The Institute for Government (IfG) and the London School of Economics (LSE) have published independent analysis which puts the average cost of setting up a new policy department at £15 million. Applying this to the 180 departments the Scottish government states it would need could see Scottish taxpayers fork out £2.7bn.

    From here:

    Seems fairly unequivocal. They specifically mention set up costs, not transition.

  34. NickR says:

    With regard to set up costs and replicating departments currently based elsewhere in the UK, do the reports take into account:

    a) How many Scottish jobs (and mostly good quality jobs) will be created by relocating the work to Scotland?
    b) To what extent the cost is offset by us not having to pay for services previously sourced from the rest of the UK?

  35. turnbull drier says:

    Man that doesn’t only take the buscuit, it gets it a taxi and buys it lunch…

    Normally I’d just shake my head, but just emailed them…

    Hello, Mr “ReadersEditor”.. I’m sure you will be reading this post…

    Dear Sir,

    I’m sure that you fully believe you claim:

    “At the Daily Record we pride ourselves on journalism that is honest,fair and accurate.”

    However, after reading the article on the projected setup costs for an Independent Scotland, I must take exception.

    There are no fewer than 4 (four) out and out lies in the, less than, 100 words in this article. That’s quite impressive going for a newspaper which prides itself on being “honest, fair and accurate”.

    I can supply you with the specific errors/lies if you require but I’m sure, on reflection, you will be able to spot them yourself

    I would suggest that you have a very close look at “honest, fair and accurate” in the dictionary and then have a really good think about their relationship to this article.

    Please let me know the outcome of your deliberations.

    Your Faithfully

    Turnbull Drier

  36. G H Graham says:

    Even if it was £2 billion, it’s still worth it.

    Compare that number to the cost of a nuclear weapons system we will never use; about £100 billion. Or the cost of the London Olympics, a mere £10 billion. Still feeling the benefit from that, Scotland? No, didn’t think so.

    What else? Hmm. Oh, HS2. Take your pick. £30 billion? £50 billion? Who cares? No one in Scotland will ever use it, cos it won’t be coming here for say another 50 years anyway if ever.

    Ah, those two carriers that we can’t afford to put planes on. They will sit in a dry dock next year getting an annual paint job! They cost about £6 billion each but of no use to anyone for years to come.

    So we have a British government which is quite happy to chuck vast sums at pointless vanity projects but thinks that spending £2 billion to set up a new, more efficient democracy is too expensive.

    The more I think about it, spending the best part of £2 billion to get rid of Westminster seems like the bargain of the century.

  37. Pentland Firth says:

    If we vote to stay in the Union, what is Scotland’s share of the various UK government’s departments IT costs as they “transition” to new or updated systems over the next decade? Will the Unionist media care to cover that story? Nope, I don’t think so either.

    Our media seem obsessed with the (relatively low) costs of independence, but ignore the costs of a seriously dysfunctional UK government apparatus which we are obliged to pay through the nose for.

    It’s like a business examining only the maximum possible costs of change, while ignoring the costs of continuing with the old failing organisation.

  38. Phil Robertson says:

    MajorBloodnok and Bill McLean.

    If the SG grasp of economics it is weak, then Stuart Campbell’s is even worse. The FT suggests an in improvement in the GDP of 11% if the oil revenues are sustained. That is then translated as being equivalent to an 11% increase in the Scottish Government budget.

    That direct correspondence doesn’t exist so the £7bn figure is bogus.

  39. caz-m says:

    David Clegg of the Record, detests the YES campaign and will print lie after lie about Scotland to keep it within the UK.

    I just hope upon hope, that the Record readers can see through the bullshit. Maybe they buy it for the sports pages or the gossip, because it certainly can’t be for their fair and balanced view of Scottish politics.

    This comic (The Record) is more bias than the Mail or the Telegraph and has to be ignored.

    Labour Party supporting Dvaid Clegg, BBC Scotland McQuarrie and Scottish Labour thought that a NO vote was in the bag.

    They didn’t bank on coming up against a very strong and knowledgeable grassroots YES campaign.

    And they don’t like it.

  40. HandandShrimp says:

    Another way of looking at this is that if we vote Yes we will spend say £600 to £800m in set up and transitional costs. This will equate to money spent over the 10 year period on jobs and installation costs of systems in Scotland. If we vote No our share of the tax expenditure on HS2 and HS3 will be a similar amount of money but we will see barely a farthing of benefit. Through in replacing Trident over the same period and….well you get the picture

    The sad thing about the Record is it isn’t even half a story. It is political analysis without the analysis. I don’t know why they don’t just finger paint butterflies – it would be as relevant to political discourse as what they actually do.

  41. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Even if it was £2 billion (which it is not) that is less than half of what Scotland will pay towards the £47 billion estimated for HS2 – the fast rail link to the “north” – ie the English Midlands – unless we get out of this end of empire farce.

    My early post above has all the contacts for the Record. They told lies about the fantasy bets on NO as well.

    Having got away with distortions and small lies initially without sanction the whole press is now telling whoppers with complete immunity

    Lots of people now know this however. If I had the wherewithall I’d make up a Daily Liar for posting into every home in Scotland and I wouldn’t spare the half wits who still believe the lies.

  42. alexicon says:


    Also, the set up costs would create 10s of thousands of new jobs in Scotland. Jobs that Westminster keeps away from Scotland at this moment.

  43. Clootie says:

    I’m old enough to have fooled myself into thinking that journalists once tried to report facts. The Telegraph and the Daily Record may have had a different slant on the story but in general facts were important.Each paper may have selected a different piece of a data report but it was still accurate.

    My thoughts were therefore that today’s hacks now appear quite happy to display their bias quite openly and print any data without any scrutiny.

    I had thought “Reputation was important at one time. Sadly this is no longer the case”.

    However I now accept that I have always been lied too. The MSM only appeared free and acting on our behalf to uncover the truth.

    Yes the internet is also full of crap but I now know that it is no different from the media. I cannot filter the media but I can use the internet to establish a group of reliable sources.

    Once again I return to the mantra “Thank God for the Internet”

    a) I can quickly gain a different insight on the story.
    b) I can work back to the source data of the story.

    It is becoming harder and harder to find a newspaper / BBC story that stands up to even the most basic cross check.

    As an example – It will be interesting watching the media over the next few months selling us the Iraq war story and the need to act.

  44. MajorBloodnok says:

    @Phil Robertson

    Yes you’re right, it’s probably an underestimate, because the FT assumes that Scotland will continue to put money to the things it spends it on now, like Trident, the London underground, London Crossrail, HS2 to Birmingham, new sewers in London, etc., so in fact the £7bn saving is bogus because it’s too low. Thanks for pointing that out, chum.

  45. goldenayr says:

    Phil Robertson

    Sooo…you admit you’re wrong on set up/transition costs and are now trying an attack from a different angle.

    Why not just realise that the figures you’re using come from a discredited treasury and dishonest sources.Save your blood pressure for the real problems faced by ordinary people and seek to improve our fortunes free from a system devoted to its perpetuation and not the welfare of its citizens.

    Give power to your YES.

  46. Neil Craig says:

    Obviously none of them are lies and it shows the dishonesty and desperation of separatists that they have to lie about it.

    Stuart even admits at the end that #5 of the “lies” isn’t (thereby admitting to being a liar).

    #1 is an estimated cost. Stuart may claim to disagree with it and claim that, while the SNP gave boasted that changing income tax by 1p would cost about £300 million, changing everything would cost less. That doesn’t make it in any way true.

    #2 is true and Stuart nearly admits this. The cost of setting something up is the set up cost. If the bureaucrats only count money spent in the first months it would not be the first time government bureaucracy have redefined costs to make them look smaller.

    #3 is a reasonable interpretation both because papers often take figures to the nearest whole number (& the SNP never object when it works in their favour) and because we all know that anything government touches comes out above initially promised price. If we consider the fraudulent overspend the SNP managed on the Forth bridge we could expect it to cost £16 bn rather than £2bn (ie 8 times what it ought to).

    #4 I admit I don’t know the background here but, seeing how the others go, the default assumption must be that Stuart is lying here too). I would be open to evidence from a trustworthy source.

  47. MajorBloodnok says:

    God, BT must be running a breeding programme.

  48. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Phil Robertson at 11.24

    Where is “this translated as being equivalent to an 11% increase in the Scottish Government budget?”

    Please provide the details and the proof of this statement.

    The Scottish Government makes no claims of increased budgets. It makes claims about using its existing budget situation more wisely in Scotland’s interest and building the economy as a result of doing so.

  49. scottish_skier says:

    ‘The United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP) is urging a No vote in the referendum on an independent Scotland. Does UKIP’s support for No make you more or less likely to vote Yes?’

    More likely to vote Yes: 23%
    Makes no difference to how I will vote: 67%
    Less likely to vote Yes: 6%
    Don’t know: 4%

    Panelbase June 2014.

    Thanks Nigel.

    Including leaners, conservatively, simply the fact that UKIP support the Union is enough to give Yes a majority.

    Not even the prospect of them in government or anything, just that they support No.

  50. caz-m says:




  51. handclapping says:

    Endangered species?

  52. HandandShrimp says:

    I would be open to evidence from a trustworthy source.


    Nothing you have said here to date indicates that this is in itself a true statement. 🙂

  53. R whittington says:

    All of the stuff on the Internet is 100% true. This is especially true of political blogs.

  54. Robert Peffers says:

    @goldenayr says: “Expect the Daily Retard to proclaim the “second coming” with this one tomorrow.”

    You beat me to it, goldenayr.

    The lies begin with Miliband’s first words.
    Even if the voters were daft enough to elect him there is nothing whatsoever that a Westminster Government could do to change the whole of,
    “Britain”, for the very good reason that Westminster is NOT the legislation of Britain but only of the United Kingdom part of Britain.

    This myth is the hardest pushed bit of United Kingdom Establishment propaganda ever. Witness Call Kaye this very morning and the large number of false claims made that : –
    (a), Elizabeth II is the Queen of Britain – She’s not.
    (b), That the commenters on the programme falsley claim they would NOT be British if there was no British Monarchy.
    (c), The constant lies that Cameron is the British Prime Minister.
    (d), Westminster is the British Parliament.
    (e), That Britain has just one lot of armed forces.
    Et Al.

    All 100% utter lies and never challanged by the, (Ahem!), “British”, Media outlets.

  55. mogabee says:


    By God you’re right sir!

  56. MajorBloodnok says:

    @R Whittington

    Plus 98.7% of all statistics are made up. Trust me if you dare.

  57. Proud Cybernat says:

    Proud Cybernat is becoming really effin hacked off by these hacks at the Daily MisRecord. Why can’t they tell the effin truth for once in their miserable lives? Do they really think people will believe their utter tripe? They spin stories so much that the DR HQ will end up docking with the International Space Station.

    DR – we don’t believe your lies. Have to do better.

  58. MajorBloodnok says:

    handclapping says: @MajorB – Endangered species?

    I sincerely hope so.

  59. Macart says:


    Its the whole feeding after midnight thing.

    They wouldn’t listen.

  60. The Man in the Jar says:


    Darwins theory will catchup with them eventually!

  61. Gillie says:


  62. Nana Smith says:


    Just received an invite from Eddie, sharing it with Wings so you can have a laugh people…

    Dear Nana Smith,

    There are 82 days to secure Scotland’s future in the UK.

    We already know the result is hugely important. And we know we have the right arguments. But whether we win the argument is going to rest on one thing: how many voters can we talk to before election day?

    Will you help our campaign reach more voters?

    Yes, I’ll volunteer to talk to voters.

    I can’t volunteer, but I will donate £10 to fund campaign materials instead.

    I’m in Port Glasgow with Johann Lamont today to commit that the next Labour government will build a fairer, better society for the many. The cost-of-living crisis and zero-hour contracts are a problem no matter whether you live in Stirling or Southampton and they need solutions that work across the UK.

    82 days to go – and I look forward to campaigning with you.



    Ed Miliband

  63. goldenayr says:

    In an infinite universe all things are possible.

    Except the “British” establishment telling the truth.Some laws of physics just can’t be broken.

  64. goldenayr says:


    Volunteer to canvas and then hand out YES leaflets(surreptitiously,of course).

  65. Nana Smith says:


    I actually thought to do just that but I would be sussed out too quickly as I’d be the only one smiling!

  66. MajorBloodnok says:


    That’s why study of the workings of the British Establishment is clearly an Impirical science.

  67. Taranaich says:

    @G H Graham: Even if it was £2 billion, it’s still worth it.


  68. goldenayr says:


    Give you an inch and you post a belter.

  69. handclapping says:

    Depressing thought for the day : The media haven’t signed up to the Edinburgh Agreement.

  70. goldenayr says:


    Just think of all the crap they tell when you’re doing it.That should give you the requisite angry/hacked of demeanour necessary of a no voter.Save the smiles for the folk opening the doors.

  71. Wayne says:

    The shock and awe comments about expenditure that the media like to bandy about are just designed to shock “the man on the street” who’s salary is measured in the thousands.

    If you look closely at how much governments waste it would make you either weep or be angry. As an example the cost of shipping all of the army’s equipment from Afganistan back to the UK will be over £300m, when my wife ran one of the divisions of the NHS in Scotland she was responsible for a budget that far exceeded that! Don’t get caught up in the “it will cost how much?” Headlines that the MSM love to use, it’s all reletive.

    Let’s also remember that Centre One is based in East Kilbride, our NHS is already autonomous, we have enough competent civil servants based in Victoria Quay and St Andrews House to start the ball rolling and don’t even get me started of the Currency issue!

  72. Bugger (the Panda) says:


    Just dashed off an e-mail to the DR Editor

  73. desimond says:

    Anyone who thinks people buy the Daily Record for its political content is very misguided. Another addition to the growing list of Yesterdays Men.

    Im sitting wondering what exactly is the point of Tweedle Dee and tweedle Dums postings above. They dont try and encourage any dont knows to consider a better life under the Union so why come and try and shit in our sandpit?

  74. Andrew says:

    Hi folks,

    I’m not trying to hijack this thread so apologies in advance if anyone is offended. But – any chance some of you kind people could repost this link on your Facebook or Twitter accounts to try and raise a wee bit of cash for the Yes Stirling campaign office?

    We’re still a wee bit short and your extraordinary generosity will make a difference as it has in the past for so many other similar worthy causes on this site.

  75. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Oh FFS. They’re all coming out to play today. If Norsey turns up we’ll have a full house. Someone open a firkin of mead…that should tempt him to break cover.

  76. heedtracker says:

    Crichton Torquil’s sex life’s a bit dull these days but he hears that kissing each others … is very exciting so he gives it go and when its his turn, nothing happens. What’s the hold up asks Torquil, nothing says partner, just reading about John Gregg, there’s a bit of the Daily Record still stuck to your…

    Billy Connolly, back in 76′ when he was really funny.

  77. goldenayr says:


    Saved that one.

    They’re probably at Mystic Megs(or whoever does horoscopes there)desk trying divine the message from above.

    I have this vision of redtop journos sitting at their desks with lit candles and offerings in front of their monitors waiting for instructions from on high.

  78. Neil Craig says:

    So no factual dispute then. Case proven.

  79. Democracy Reborn says:

    Cost of building the Millenium Dome : £789 million (£1.16 billion in 2014 prices).

    Cost of building Portcullis House (new Westminster office space/committee rooms for 213 MPs) : £235 million. This figure includes £400,000 for ‘decorative fig trees’.

    (Sources : Wikipedia, “Millenium Dome” & “Portcullis House”)

    Better together indeed!

  80. Harry McAye says:

    I used to buy the Record but it is an absolute pleasure every day now, not buying that filthy, lying piece of trash. I hope some Record “journos” are reading this. Shame on you, your sales are dropping like a stone and I will laugh and laugh when you go under.

  81. Dan Huil says:

    The Daily Record is a disgrace to Scotland.

  82. goldenayr says:

    Ian Brotherhood

    They must be missing us at the Scotsman.

    Not even checked that site for awhile.

  83. desimond says:

    This Ed Miliband stuff. Its only slightly less tragic than the response that “Oh People will vote YES as they fear a Tory Government”.

    Im sorry but I actually fear a Labour Government much more than the Tories. Least they feckers smile while telling you exactly how they’re gonna shaft you, unlike Labours plastic caring mask disguising a whole raft of new painful contortions as they lurch ever rightwards.

  84. Mary Bruce says:

    If I were Professor Patrick Dunleavy I reckon I’d be very, very pissed off by now.

  85. goldenayr says:

    Neil Craig

    Your dogma is not conducive to discussion.

  86. Calum Craig says:

    Ah, that’s where Bliar McDougal got his figure of 1.5bn from, saw him bleating about it on Twitter last night and did wonder. I did, naturally, assume it was a lie so thanks for clearing that one up Stu.

  87. Flower of Scotland says:

    The Daily Record is a SLAB paper. Always has been. Don’t buy it. It’s FULL of lies!

  88. Bob Sinclair says:

    Media strangely silent on the topic of the person arrested for abuse of Alex Salmond. I suppose its because the person in question never committed the heinous crime of saying Alex Salmond was someone’s daughter-in-law.
    They will bury this story.

  89. Murray McCallum says:

    I wish the anti-Scotland posters would just come clean and say that Scotland is not a country and that it can not, or should not, ever govern itself.

    They would save everyone a lot of time.

  90. Dan Huil says:

    In his pathetic pleading Miliband doesn’t mention his support of tory welfare cuts. Wonder why.

  91. Molly says:

    Actually, the biggest lie The Daily Record tells is to it’s Labour voters. The Record supports ( in New Labour speak) brand Labour.

    Not socialist, not even particularly left leaning anymore just Labour Inc.The Record perpetuates the myth that somehow the Labour Party and socialism are connected.

  92. T222Deracha says:

    Sorry for being O/T but my partner claims ESA and her doctor’s lines have to be sent to offices in Wolverhampton. Seems they may already have shut offices down in Scotland, austerity or perhaps a deliberate attempt to increase set up costs for an independent Alba?.

  93. gordoz says:

    @ Neil Craig (aka the cyberbrit clown)

    Case proven

  94. Flower of Scotland says:

    It’s not Chico time today! It could be SPOOKS time though!

  95. Phil Robertson says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:
    Where is “this translated as being equivalent to an 11% increase in the Scottish Government budget?”

    It’s in the post “unleashing a Firestorm”. Having quoted the FT article saying that the GDP may be 11% better, it goes on to say “Based on the current total Scottish budget (Scottish Government and UK government) of around £64bn, that’s somewhere in the vicinity of £7 billion a year.”

    Ironic then to accuse the Daily Record of misleading numbers!

    MajorBloodnok – you’ve got your income and expenditure mixed up.

  96. kenzie says:

    They are definitely trying to wear us down. We must be resolute in our determination to succeed; for our children and their children’s sake. We may never get another such golden opportunity.

  97. Patrick Roden says:

    @Neil Craig,

    No Neil we are ignoring you. come back with something that is worth responding to (do some research and not just regurgitate Labour/MSM nonsense) and someone may respond to you.

  98. R whittington says:

    Apologies if this is off topic but hopefully some of you may be able to help. I have a slight damp patch on the inside of my rear external kitchen wall. I have been led to believe that it is likely to be penetrating damp from the presence of salts (hydroscopic salts?). On further investigation the damp could be coming from one of two sources (or both). A number of years ago I employed (at some cost!) a local plasteror to re-render the rear of my house. Unfortunately it appears that he did not leave a gap in the render where the damp proof course is. As the damp patch only appeared a couple of months ago so I feel it is unlikely that this is the source of the problem (although I understand that I should sort this out). Could the damp instead be caused by a lack of chimney cowls on my neighbours part of the shared chimney? Money is an issue at the moment and I don’t want to make sure that the problem is solved first time. Any advice is appreciated.

  99. R. Duncan says:

    The continuation of lies the rags are throwing out are a sign of desperation. When will ANY journo get off their fat arse and do some checking of the drivel they write.

    People are fed up with the negativity and i think they are encouraging voter apathy. Which to be fair is a bonus for us.

    Every YES voter i have spoken to has stressed that they will vote regardless. The negativity and lies will ensure a huge turnout for YES and the impact on NO voters will suffer. It is the NO and DK voters who are becoming apathetic . A couple of hard No’s have said lately that they might not vote because they feel it will “make no difference anyway”

    Roll on 18th Sept.

  100. heedtracker says:

    £2+ billion gets you approx 10 mile stretch of HS2 rail line out of London or a £2+billion spend directly into Scotland, Scots multiplier kicks in, massive Scots jobs boost, modernisation and efficiency savings.

    Or we stick around teamGB and wait for ukok Barnett slash and burn, partly austerity cuts/national debt payback but mostly punishment for our damn cheek. Tough choices?

  101. Bob Sinclair says:

    Lets just wait and see if theres a Scotland2014 half hour special devoted to monstering the No Campaign then.

  102. R whittington says:

    *I meant I DO want to solve the problem first time!

  103. Bob Sinclair says:

    R Whittington, the dampness you speak of is indeed a major concern and I understand why you are worried.

    It’s more than likely caused by an overflow of the P**h you trot out on here day in day out.

  104. Helena Brown says:

    We called it the Daily Retard for years so not expecting much from them other than the standard they have kept up or is it down?
    Now wouldn’t it be nice if the Better Together/No thanks/UKOk would stop talking down their country and population, we are not quite as stupid as they would like.

  105. R whittington says:

    Bit harsh. *constructed* advice would be more helpful. Many thanks.

  106. Helena Brown says:

    Mr Whittington I suggest that you check that you have no problem with either your roof or guttering before worrying about your neighbours chimney’s lack of a cowl unless this has just happened. There are any number of damp walls caused by choked guttering.

  107. Luigi says:

    O/T: I think the YES web design team has been infiltrated by BT agents.

    The new YES web page is really crap. What a turn-off, and at such a critical time.

    Only a real spolier would have designed something so bad.

    YES Scotland need to sort out their web page, pronto.

  108. Bob Sinclair says:

    R Whittington – Ok, some constructive advice then.
    Seek professional help.

  109. Thepnr says:

    Ah the good old mejia. Daily distorting reality for your own good. It’s a laugh, people already scunnered with Westminster are now also scunnered with the UK’s mejia.

    Their function is simple to deduce, support the establishment at all costs, the editors and owners welfare relies heavily on printing outright lies and distorting facts.

    Unfortunately they have ignored the internet and the true facts are getting out there, maybe even now it is not more than a trickle but by 18th of Sept it will have become a torrent as voters seek information.

    I don’t think they can hold the Yes vote back, the dam will burst! Get visible folk, you know what I mean.

  110. R whittington says:

    Hi Helena. The gutters were last cleaned around four months ago and are cleaned fairly regularly so it’s unlikely to be the cause of the problem. Many thanks for your help though.

  111. Capella says:

    The British press are trashing the reputation of Jean-Claude Junker now. He drinks brandy for breakfast! See what you get if you upset the City of London and their press Baron pals.
    Can’t wait for the amusing cartoons.

  112. heedtracker says:

    @R whittington, just move and rebuild, like what out dear old BetterTogether BBC does. Pacific Quay is a big glass box of garbage but it’s pricey several hundred million quid garbage. They don’t like to talk about how they weewee away billions of tax payers hard eaned at the Beeb do they Dick?

  113. Thepnr says:

    And just to cheer you up. Yew Choob with a summary.–Ow

  114. Dan Huil says:

    The British nationalist media is strangling itself with its own tourniquet of lies. Delicious.
    When Yes is victorious internet websites like WoS will be seen to have played a significant part in that victory.

  115. dmw42 says:

    So what is the real cost of democracy?
    What is the real cost of social justice?
    What is the real cost of taking 200,000 kids out of poverty?
    What is the real cost of removing 90,000 households from the ‘bedroom tax’?
    What is the real cost of removing weapons of mass destruction from your shores?
    What is the real cost of having your young men and women die for illegal wars?

    If any politician, of any hue, dares to answer these questions in pounds, shillings and pence, you’re a disgrace!

  116. heedtracker says:

    @ R whittington, it is bizarre though Dick watching same BBC, teamGB media, monstering Scottish democracy costs today with the Daily telegraph cut n pasting the Daily Record again.

    But in 2010 “The development is four years behind schedule as a result of “weak governance” and poor planning, and its budget has spiralled to £1 billion, according to a damning report by the National Audit Office.
    A further £188 million was spent on the BBC Scotland headquarters in Pacific Quay, Glasgow, £62 million over budget.
    Moving Radio Five Live, BBC Sport and three other departments from London to the “MediaCity” site in Salford, Greater Manchester, will cost £877 million.

  117. MajorBloodnok says:

    R Whittington

    You think you’ve got it bad. I’ve got a chronic case of silverfish that even WD40 won’t shift.

  118. HandandShrimp says:

    The cost of setting something up is the set up cost. If the bureaucrats only count money spent in the first months it would not be the first time government bureaucracy have redefined costs to make them look smaller

    Neil this is the only one I will do because I really can’t be arsed going through all your gripes. This is more for the others than you though 🙂

    Set up costs are the unique one off costs that occur to initiate a project. These are distinct from recurring running costs and on-going replacement costs over the life of that project. In order to do a cost comparison one must set all three costs against the current running costs and replacement costs. It is the NPV comparison that determines the true cost of a particular course. This has nothing to do with bureaucracy, it is standard cost accountancy…which for my sins I am a qualified ACMA member.

    Professor Dunleavy quite clearly understands this…although I would expect an LSE professor to understand project costing. However, I would also expect Treasury Civil Servants to understand because they, through the FReM and regulations on Investment Appraisals abide by IFRS (accountancy reporting standards). That they did not was disconcerting.

    That is my last on this – I don’t like talking shop. I come here for the banter.

  119. Alan Mackintosh says:

    R Whittington, Damp caused by rain getting in at the top. If you repaired the wall with cement render rather than Lime render you have trapped the moisture in the wall. Nothing to do with rising damp. Thats a myth put about by damp proofing companies.

  120. Lesley-Anne says:

    Right that’s the deed done, I’ve just e-mailed the readers editor at the Daily Mail about the level of incompetence amongst the journalists at the Record. 😛

    Hope you don’t mind Stu but I sent them the body of this article. You are far better at blowing apart incompetent arguments over this than I could ever be. 😉

    I did suggest to them that they should concentrate more on the costs being sucked out of Scotland to pay for London’s vanity projects, not that I expect this to make any headway though. 🙂

  121. msean says:

    This was previously debunked. It’s the merry – go – round thing again.

  122. HandandShrimp says:


    Rising damp doesn’t tend to go above waist height. If it is below this height then although it may have taken time to become apparent it could be because your damp proof course is compromised. If it is high up and you think it is in the vicinity of the chimney then the cowl would not be an issue but the zinc flashing around the chimney or pointing (outside or inside of the chimney breast might be an issue.

  123. desimond says:

    “Oh the £2b costs”( next weeks Lamont Lament no doubt!) …what are the scaremongerers trying to do, put the cannae in canny Scots?

    If this is Too Poor, What will we get next week for too Wee or too Stoopid?

  124. R whittington says:

    I’m sorry to hear that Majorbloodnok. Have a look at this:

  125. HandandShrimp says:

    or what Alan said

  126. Training Day says:

    The Daily Record has been lying to its readers for decades. From its claim to be ‘Scotland’s Champion’, to its extolling of the ‘battling’ Scottish Secretaries Dewar and Clarke, to its endorsement of the ‘fighting fifty’, to its crocodile tears over Gartcosh, Ravenscraig et al. Measuring up its overall achievements for Scotland at the end of the day they amount to the square root of sod all.

    Not one journalist of true distinction has ever emerged from the Record, and the sole purpose of this London owned, London run rag is and has been to keep the Scottish people in thrall to Westminster by promoting a pernicious servility and a strangulating self-loathing among its hapless customers.

    Apart from that it’s terrific.

  127. Grouse Beater says:

    Dick Whittington said: Apologies if this is off topic but hopefully some of you may be able to help. I have a slight damp patch on the inside of my rear…

    Is that so? Must be painful.

    If you are going to persist with posting way off topic inane questions fit for a DIY site there’s an off topic thread you can use, coincidentally entitled, “Off Topic.”

  128. Capella says:

    Cost of refurbishing MOD Whitehall HQ in 2007 £2.3 billion
    Compare with build of Holyrood building at the same time and furore in the press about the £414 million pricetag.

  129. goldenayr says:

    R Whittington

    Slate,tiled or flat roof?

    Flashings lead?

    Cavity wall or?

    Location flood plain,open to elements?

    You see it’s important to know the construction of your house and the founds it’s built upon.

    Otherwise you’ll see it crumble like the british state.

  130. R whittington says:

    Or you could just mind your own Grouse Beater.

  131. Grouse Beater says:

    Hand & Shrimp: Professor Dunleavy quite clearly understands this

    I agree. He’s getting a taste of how easily and without shame both government and press can distort honest research and not trouble to correct lapses, content with their dishonesty.

  132. MajorBloodnok says:

    R whittington says: I’m sorry to hear that Majorbloodnok. Have a look at this:

    I tried that but an Avast warning came up and said that the site was unsafe as it was infested with silverfish. 🙁

  133. seanair says:

    I really hope that Professor Dunleavy writes to the Record to put the record straight. Ditto FM to write. For the few Record readers who don’t just stick to the sports pages, they deserve to have the true facts spelled out. I’m sick of these lies, but I’m also sick that YES/ SG doesn’t refute the lies. This is NOT a situation where we shrug the shoulders. We need every vote we can. Get after these liars Mr. Jenkins/ Mr. Salmond.

  134. Grouse Beater says:

    Goldenayr: Otherwise you’ll see it crumble like the British state.

    Chuckle … nice association.

  135. You and My Comb says:

    I think this report might put set up costs into perspective. The £15m quoted by UKOK seems to come from here

    I think the spin from the Noscotland side is evidence of desperation that their arguments are increasingly threadbare and don’t really stand up to scrutiny.

    If our uk govt Needs to ‘spin’ a story or headlines it doesn’t bode well. I re listened to Dunleavy’s interview on radio Scotland from elsewhere on this site and the £2.7bn was quoted by the presenter. Clearly that information came from Westminster. Even the subsequent claim £1.5bn has also been discredited. Yet the newspapers are less than attentive to that detail.

    O/T I had the misfortune to attend a No Thanks Scotland meeting last night where the Secretary of State for Portsmouth was the speaker. I missed the beginning where he seems to have denigrated cybernats and blamed them for all the ills of the campaign. He then trotted out standard project fear stuff on the EU, economy, currency and nuclear weapons. He seemed immensely proud that the UK had the 4th largest defence budget but didn’t deal with the debt issue in any way.

    It was significant that only 40 people attended at least a quarter of which were Yessers. Most of the questions from the Naysayers seemed to have a starting point that there had been a yes vote. Morale does seem pretty low on the No side. A £20 lunch date at the local sailing club was cancelled due to lack of interest. With the Orange Order due to march in Helensburgh this weekend morale can’t be great in the No side locally.

  136. Grouse Beater says:

    Dick Whittington: Or you could just mind your own Grouse Beater.

    Oh dear. Temper, temper.

    Seanair said: I really hope that Professor Dunleavy writes to the Record to put the record straight.

    You’d like to think so, although will it be pubished, and if so, will it be stuck next to a larger article restating the lies in bold print?

  137. You and My Comb says:

    I meant to say that the NAO report shows £200m wasted a year on reorganisation of Whitehall departments many of which don’t last.

  138. R whittington says:

    @golenayr as far as I believe it’s a cavity wall (it has air bricks, does this mean its cavity?). Lead flashing (which looks fine) and ceramic tiles.
    @Handandshrimp from what you say it looks like the render is the problem. If this were the case do you know a cost effective solution?

  139. Michael McCabe says:

    @Neil Craig Here is some Advice. That’s Nice Vote Yes

  140. Grouse Beater says:

    Item on BBC TV news about rising house prices in England neatly – for once – balanced with an additional comment that they’re falling in Scotland. “Two different systems going in different directions with different results.”

    You bet, you bet.

  141. Bob Sinclair says:

    Dick Waddington
    By posting on a public forum you make it everyone’s business.

    Anyhoo, you’ve had plenty of free advice on your problems, so maybe time to down laptop and shuffle of to B&Q for some tools/building materials. That should keep you busy for a while.

  142. BigRik says:

    I dont care how much it costs to distance ourselves from the hugely corrupt Westminster system, and folk like Ruthie, who seem proud that we have the fourth biggest defence budget in the world. while millions use food banks. Better together? No thanks

  143. Macandroid says:

    Major B

    How do I now get rid of WD40 stains, having sprayed it on my walls? 🙁

  144. Grouse Beater says:

    Bob Sinclair said to Dick: Get thee to B&Q!

    He’ll be happy there – their executive advocates a No vote.

  145. Squirrel Towers says:

    Scottish independence: Start-up cost ‘up to £1.5bn’ is the BBC website headline in Scotland now….its contagious…

  146. Grouse Beater says:

    Squirrel Towers names names: Scottish independence: Start-up cost ‘up to £1.5bn’ is the BBC website headline in Scotland now….its contagious…

    After the umpteenth reiteration of a lie there’s no other interpretation than they do it mischievously or are inept.

  147. Macandroid says:

    Squirrel & Beater

    Lazy journalists – sorry don’t know why I used the word journalists!

  148. Lesley-Anne says:

    You and My Comb says:

    With the Orange Order due to march in Helensburgh this weekend morale can’t be great in the No side locally.

    YaMC, goldenayr and I were discussing the Orange Order last night on another thread. The conversation began because I had highlighted this little beauty.

    As the Orange Order are now officially registered with the Electoral Commission they must now follow certain rules, one of which must be not to break the law. As the Orange Order march about Central Scotland during “silly season” wearing bowler hats and funny looking aprons and huge banners then they are, quite obviously wearing a uniform. Consequently under paragraph 1 of the Public Order Act 1936 they are breaking the law because paragraph 1 states:

    Prohibition of uniforms in connection with political objects.

    (1)Subject as hereinafter provided, any person who in any public place or at any public meeting wears uniform signifying his association with any political organisation or with the promotion of any political object shall be guilty of an offence:

    Provided that, if the chief officer of police is satisfied that the wearing of any such uniform as aforesaid on any ceremonial, anniversary, or other special occasion will not be likely to involve risk of public disorder, he may, with the consent of a Secretary of State, by order permit the wearing of such uniform on that occasion either absolutely or subject to such conditions as may be specified in the order.

    As goldenayr mentioned last night:

    Get a copy and,on the day of the march,hand it to the SPO.

    If he/she doesn’t show a letter from the SoS authorising the march,take their number and report the failure to carry out his/her duties.Tell them of your intentions.

    That should be good for a laugh.

    I can just see the Orange Order walking up to the front door of the Secretary of State for Portsmouth and asking him to sign a wee order to let them march in full uniform. 😛

  149. Bob Sinclair says:

    Grouse beater – no accident 🙂

  150. Grouse Beater says:

    Macaandroid: don’t know why I used the word ‘journalists’!

    Good wry humour on the site today…

  151. Cuilean says:

    I no longer buy any paper apart from the Sunday Herald, and not every Sunday either. I quite miss them, being of a certain age, but I simply refuse to finance their lies, lies and damned lies, with one penny of mine. Each day, I look forward, very much, to reading your erudite and thoughtful, accurate articles. I also visit all the other well-known referendum ‘veritas’ sites online or via facebook/twitter/youtube. My 17 year old would no sooner think to buy a paper, than a DVD or CD! When her generation is my age, papers will be in museums. Everything is in the ether. The paper industry is dead. The printed press is simply weaving their eventual shroud. Who will mourn them? You give me strength each day to keep going. Never, never, never give in to their lies. You are writing yourself into the pages of Scottish history, a folk hero, a latter day lay of the last minstrel.

  152. desimond says:

    @You and My Comb

    The BT desperation….yip, nail, head, bang.

    If Better Together think this is all about money, they once again are missing the point by a wide margin. Once again their arguement is “Look, pure rubbish so it is” regardless of £2 or £2b figures.

    The only relevant fact is they do not, for they cannot, offer alternative positive suggestions for the use of any “costs” cash in a retained Union and are just left sounding hollow.

    Its all rather embarrassing really, like watching your mate begging his ex to take him back because he stays nearer than her new boyfriend.

  153. MajorBloodnok says:

    Macandroid says: Major B

    How do I now get rid of WD40 stains, having sprayed it on my walls?

    Well my solution would involve highly trained silverfish so soak it up (naturally) or sarcoptic mange-mite at a pinch; but what do I know?

  154. CameronB Brodie says:

    Re. Ed Miliband’s appeal to Scots to stay and, his promises of great social change;

    “Changing our economy to make it more equal. Changing our society to make it more fair. And changing our politics to reform the British state so it works for people in every part of our country.”

    How is he going to achieve this without resolving England’s chronic housing shortage?

    Indeed in 2007 Gordon Brown promised to provide an additional 3 million homes by 2020 – some 230,000 per annum for a thirteen year period. That was probably unrealistic even without the recession – although there were 207,000 net additions to the housing stock in England that year. What it does do however is to put the current pledge into perspective as a very modest aspiration indeed. In particular it implies that there is likely to be very little additional money for social housing during the next Parliament. This is a very different message from the one that commentators seem to have picked up – and one that housing pressure groups should be fighting to change.

  155. Black Douglas says:

    O/T Now Tunnock’s get their reward for supporting the Union. 😯

  156. heedtracker says:

    Press and journal here in Aberdeen not that interested in set up cost but well into second week of their “Islamic terror threat for Aberdeen fears” so vote no fear mongering They must have tried every single angle possible to scare their readers into hard no but also massive boost for Ed Balls and “UK oil is safe in his hands”, I shit you not and Ed Davy energy minister is a handsome and brilliant finance god, here to save silly little Scotchland from itself.

    There’s loads more vote no P&J project fear mongering with the usual round of readers letters, mostly ric old farts worried about their cash but never actually saying that.

    Today though, Nobel prize winner Sir Hugh Pennington gets top readers letters slot with, “youre not a colony because Alexander Fleming discovered penicillin in London” so vote no.

  157. MajorBloodnok says:

    @Black Douglas

    Jeeze, I read all that. Must be a slow news day.

  158. a2 says:

    I’m looking forward to a solution to this damp problem. It seems lots of people know just exactly what’s wrong based on the slightest of information. Might start by wondering whether it’s at the top or bottom before attributing blame keeps us all occupied though 😉

    I’d have thought though dick that if you don’t know if you have a cavity wall, you might not be best placed to assert that your flashings look fine or make any other important judgements, regarding either the fabric of your building or the country.

    cripes, lunchtimes over…

  159. David Milligan Lvss says:


  160. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @MajorBloodnok –

    ‘sarcoptic mange-mite’?

    Gordon Bennett. I’m too scared to ask, and too scared to google it…

  161. Ian Brotherhood says:

    I overcame the fear and found this image…nice!

  162. MajorBloodnok says:


    Got it: Dick DoubleU’s wall cavity insulation is in fact Tunnock’s snowball filling and it’s not rising damp but rising VAT inspectors trying to tunnel through to get at the not-cake substitute.

    … some might say it’s clearly a slow day for me, getting even slower. And I’d agree with them.

  163. Black Douglas says:


    😀 Hope you had a suitable beverage and snack while you read.

    @heedtracker says “”Islamic terror threat for Aberdeen fears” so vote no fear mongering They must have tried every single angle possible to scare their readers”

    Is it beyond the realms of possibility that the UK establishment would ramp up the supposed Islamic threat before the Commonwealth games only for there to be an “incident” during the games. 😕

  164. Lesley-Anne says:

    Thanks for that Ian, just what I needed before going to make a nice wee cuppa. Don’t think I’ll bother now! 😛

  165. Bob Sinclair says:

    Black Douglas

    Has the ‘Daily Mash’ taken on all journalistic duties for the BBC?

  166. goldenayr says:

    Sarcoptic mange-mite…hmmm.

    So that’s what Darling keeps fidgeting for.

  167. goldenayr says:


    Would’ve said the same thing to Dick myself except I couldn’t be bothered.

    Ceramic tiles with lead flashings has me pondering though.

  168. Black Douglas says:

    goldenayr says:

    “Ceramic tiles with lead flashings has me pondering though”

    Public Toilets? 😮

  169. Ian Brotherhood says:

    In an alternate reality, right now, I’m an eighteen-stone sarcoptic minge-mite and I’m having Tony Blair for my lunch, legs first…yum-yum, belch…

  170. Lesley-Anne says:

    Hope you’ve had your injections first before tucking into your Tony Blair surprise avec creme surprise and boiled veg. 😛

  171. MajorBloodnok says:

    A sarcoptic minge-mite? ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT?

  172. Andy-B says:

    Echoing the set up farce by the ultra unionist and London owned daily Record, radio Scotland had the Daily Records political editor, David Clegg,on this morning, along with Alex Massie, both quoted the £1.5 billion set up price tag as gospel. Massie just mumbled about how bad independence would be for Scotland.

    Typical one sided BBC radio Scotland drivel.

  173. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @MajorB –


    In alternate realities, anything is possible, nay inevitable, and seeing as we’re talking Blair, the description is apt.

    In another reality I’m a similar creature who feasts only on elderly Lib-Dems. Yes, you’ve guessed it – a Ming-mite.

  174. IcySpark says:

    Once again the BBC headline is wrong:

    Scottish independence: Start-up cost ‘up to £1.5bn’

    Yet what he actually said was that the total cost of establishing an independent Scottish state would be between £600m and £1.5bn in the first 10 years.

    Misrepresenting the good Professor’s figures once again.

    To the BBC. Start-up costs are not the same as transition costs.

  175. MajorBloodnok says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    Whatever you do, don’t bring Cherie into this. Gah, too late.

  176. Lesley-Anne says:

    How long before you move on up to the Eddie – mite Ian? 😛

  177. Robert Peffers says:

    Ach! Gies a breck Daily Rekker.
    If yer daft figures wir richt wi wad jist dae a wee crowd funding drive an pey it aff.

  178. jake says:

    @ MajorB, havent you heard? they,ve given up on that programme and have just added a few thousand orangemen instead

  179. Ian Brotherhood says:

    …just trying to digest Blair…(barf)…keeps coming back on me…interesting, but it’s back to beans on toast methinks (rift)…

  180. manandboy says:

    News this good should be read and digested frequently particularly if your confidence in a Yes vote is shaky.

    Should also help with any costs in setting up an oil rich Independent Scotland – no matter how much !

    Flow test success at Lancaster

    26 June 2014
    Hurricane is pleased to announce that it has successfully completed the testing phase of its key horizontal appraisal well in the Lancaster fractured basement oil discovery West of Shetland. The well will be suspended as a future producer.

    Production tests achieved a sustainable oil flow rate using an Electrical Submersible Pump (ESP) of 9,800 stock tank barrels of oil per day (STB/d), the established oil flow rate being constrained by the capacity of the surface test equipment. The Lancaster Field, which is 100 percent owned by Hurricane, has estimated 2C Contingent Resources of 207 million barrels of oil equivalent (MMboe).

    The testing programme was designed to establish whether commercial hydrocarbon flow rates could be delivered from a 1km horizontal well drilled through faulted and fractured basement rock (granite) under both natural flow and artificial lift conditions. Artificial lift was achieved through the installation of the down-hole ESP, the inclusion of which was to investigate potential flow rates that could be expected under production conditions.

    The headline test results are:

    Natural flow – maximum sustainable flow rate of 5,300 STB/d

    Artificial lift (using an ESP) – maximum sustainable flow of 9,800 STB/d (the established oil rate being constrained by surface test equipment)

    Produced water – 340 barrels of drilling brine were produced during the test of which 20 barrels were recovered during natural flow

    Oil type – 38° API

    The Company anticipates making a further announcement following completion of operations and the rig moving off location.

    Dr Robert Trice, CEO of Hurricane, commented from the Sedco 712 drilling rig: “I am delighted to report the successful completion of our testing operations which have achieved hydrocarbon flow rates in the upper range of our pre-drill estimates. The maximum sustainable flow rate of 9,800 STB/d is particularly impressive as it was achieved despite being constrained by surface equipment. Whilst the artificial lift rates are important, the fact that the well also flowed oil at 5,300 STB/d unaided (natural flow) is a clear demonstration that Hurricane’s plans for progressing to a Lancaster field development are technically viable.

    I consider this year’s operational result to be major step in further de-risking the Company’s 2C Contingent (444-470MMboe) and P50 Prospective (432-442MMboe) resources and very important as we seek to enhance shareholder value.

    This successful outcome
    reinforces the potential importance
    of basement resources
    as a strategic resource for the UK.“

  181. Jim Bo says:

    This made me laugh-

    Ed Milliband today: “You won’t be voting for the status quo.

    “By voting ‘No’ you can say ‘Yes’ to the biggest progressive change for a generation.”

    Oh really Ed?

  182. Andy-B says:

    Yesterday we had Ed Balls in Edinburgh preaching how bad off we be if we went independent, today we have another Ed in Ed-inburgh, Ed Miliband, is in Edinburgh again preaching about how great we are as part of the UK.

    Miliband is spreading his message of how he’ll change the UK for the better, this from a man who’s popularity south of the border, has hit rock bottom. Miliband can’t even convince voters south of the border, to back him I wonder why?.

    I wonder if Miliband will do a David Cameron and stay the night and fly back in the morning,Miliband is just another 24 hour tourist from Westminster.

  183. manandboy says:

    …”keeping the record straight is like trying to hold back a tsunami with a cocktail umbrella. ”

    Don’t be bashful, Stu.

    The truth is you’re brilliant at it.

    If I was your PR man,

    I’d suggest said cocktail umbrella as a second logo.

    It is a wonderful image

    and suits you down to the sand.

  184. Macandroid says:

    Cherie image_of_scabie_mite.jpg

    Ooyah !

  185. manandboy says:


    have you noticed ?

    When did you last hear a No politician / campaigner

    talk about oil ?


    They’re shit scared to even speak the word.

    It’s what they’re after.

    If Scotland had NO oil & gas, and NO renewable energy

    does anyone really think the UK Gov would be bringing the

    full force of the Gov propaganda machine into play

    because they LOVE us ! and can’t bear to live without us?

    If Scotland had NO oil & gas, and NO renewable energy,

    THEN you would see a border -all concrete and barbed wire –

    keeping the ‘poor stupid Scots’ in their own backyard.

  186. geeo says:

    “A sarcoptic minge-mite? ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT”?

    Just reading the thread then this jumped out at me…it was as well i never had my coffee in my hand, thats for sure.

    Thats what i like about the Yes folks, bombarded by lies and trolls but do we abuse them ?

    No, we just pity them while disarming their efforts with humour.

    Well done guys, big tic in the box for that…lol

  187. north chiel says:

    ref Black Douglas, comment/ major Bloodnok at 0218pm.
    The Westminster establishment will undoubtedly be aware of
    the Scottish governments responsibilities as regards to SECURITY ISSUES with regards to the Commonwealth Games, and other forthcoming events. Nothing would surprise or even shock me, as “National/ front page news” aimed at the “embarrassment or even Humiliation ” of the SG over a security issue would be the “football equivalent” of the “Scottish goalkeeper letting the ball through his legs” in injury time at Wembley.( perhaps he was blinded momentarily by a laser or similarly distracted ?)

  188. Andy-B says:

    Not content with introducing ATOS and not backing the scrapping of the Bedroom Tax, whilst raiding the Pensions Pot, Labour have a poor track record. Leader Ed Miliband wants us to join his mission. It seems Miliband isn’t content with the hundreds of food banks that’s sprung up, around the UK, he now wants to throw us into his mission.

    Or maybe its mission impossible, “I’m Ed, and I’ll self destruct in five seconds.

  189. TJenny says:

    Breaking News on BBC rolling nonsense, ‘Ed Milliband will have to consider having border controls if Scotland votes YES and has different immigration rules to rUK. (Why is it always children of immigrants who appear the most strongly opposed to er, immigrants?)

    And on David Cameron’s EU debacle, they then go to Scotand’s first UKIP MEP, David Coburn (why?) who disparaged DC wonderfully and said that UK MEPs are now so marginalised that they are like:

    ‘eunuchs at an orgy, just looking in’. Think I’m starting to have a wee smidgen of liking for Mr Coburn – he does have a turn of phrase and is a bit of a gift for us Yessers. 🙂

  190. Andy Fields says:

    Dunleavy’s quote: “Scotland’s voters can be relatively sure that total transition costs over a decade will lie in a restricted range, from 0.4 of one per cent of GDP (£600 million), up to a maximum of 1.1 per cent (£1,500 milion). This is a step forward in debate and I am grateful to Iain for helping to bring it out.”

    I don’t really see what the issue is here – like all academic estimates you have uncertainty built in (only politicians throw estimates around as it they have 100% certainty). He’s accepted here that the total costs would be within that band. Whether we pay these costs now or in ten year’s time doesn’t make much difference to the argument. The productivity gains Dunleavy has mentioned would also take several years to appear so the only thing that matters is the total cost overall.

    McLean (who he was debating with) more or less puts forward similar figures – albeit he thinks they could be slightly higher and the high end estimate could rise to £2 billion. The McLean-Dunleavy argument is actually more about language (i.e. what does the term “setup costs” actually mean) than numbers. The figures they’re both putting out are pretty close to each other when you factor in confidence intervals. Dunleavy states the £600 million to £1.5 billion costs as a reconciliation between the two approaches – the sort of compromise academics make all the time, but which politicians are completely incapable of doing for fear of appearing to back down.

    Unfortunately the political debate never has any of the nuance you get in academia. We instead have people throwing one high end estimate (the ludicrous £2.7 billion original figure) around while the other side throws £200 million back at them. Where the two numbers differ we just resort to calling the other side “liars” and falling into line behind whichever number suits our cause.

    I don’t expect that to change, but on this one issue it would be beneficial to just listen to what the academics are telling us and accept it. It shouldn’t really make that much difference to our views on independence – we all know it will cost something to transition to an independent country and you either think that is worth it or you don’t. The difference between a billion pounds one way or the other isn’t going to sway that argument for most people.

  191. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Let’s build a wall, with gigantic sarcoptic mange-mites at regular intervals from one end to t’other. That’ll keep the Westminster daytrippers away.

  192. Will Podmore says:

    So Professor McLean’s worst-case analysis is that the cost of setting up a separate Scottish state would be “probably closer to £2 billion than £1 billion“.
    Professor Dunleavy says the transition would cost up to £1.5 billion over a decade.
    Compare these with the estimate of £200 million for the initial set-up costs made by the First Minister.

  193. Peter Macbeastie says:

    Wow. My powers of prescience are starting to astound me. One day it’s Man from Aberdeen in ISIS video. Never mind, of course, that the guy in question is said to have moved to England a few years back with his family and when he left Aberdeen he was a bog standard normal bloke according to his old friends.

    Couple of days later it’s;

    ”Islamic terror threat for Aberdeen fears.”

    Of course, my foresight isn’t exactly special here. Anyone who didn’t see that coming obviously hasn’t been paying attention to the media tactics.

    There is no major threat from Islamic, or any other kind of, terrorist group to Scotland. One utterly botched attack by rank amatuers at Glasgow Airport and that’s your lot.

    Almost the entire world sees Scotland as different to the UK. Let’s make that accurate.

  194. Bob Sinclair says:

    Will Podmore,
    I suspect you are being intentionally obtuse. This has been explained over and over again but still you don’t get it?

  195. Robert Peffers says:

    Labour are just like that Whackamole game.

    They pop-up a scare story and YES whacks it down again.
    Only for another scare story to to pop out of another hole to also get whacked. After a few whackings the original scare story pops up again and there really is no end to the game except exiting the game and statring a new one.

    After we switch off the Whackascare game I suggest we play My independent pound sterling is stronger than your independent pound Sterling. We can keep the format of every time their pound sterling pops up higher than our pound sterling we whack it down again. That is until they switch to another game.

  196. gerry parker says:

    @Black Douglas. As far as I know, Lees are completely neutral wrt independence.

    They also make better snowballs and teacakes.

  197. You and My Comb says:

    @will pod more

    You need to read more will. Mcleans figures appear to be plucked from nowhere as do the ICAS figures. If you go to Dunleavy’s blog he takes McLean and ICAS down and covers the up to £1.5bn as transition over 10 years or so. Dunleavy also makes the point that some of the old systems would need to be replaced anyway and would cost money that the uk doesn’t salt away for rainy days. In addition, dunleavy explains the origins of the uk govts figures based on a paper he did in reorganising Whitehall depts under labour (brown darling blair) you would find it helpful to listen to the recording from radio Scotland and Dunleavy’s take on the comparison between the 2 styles. Takes about 6 minutes and you won’t regret it unless you are determined to keep your position. Have a look also at the National Audit Office report I linked to earlier showing waste of £200m a year in Whitehall. Report itself is worth reading. However it’s your choice. Fact or no thanks fiction.

  198. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “He’s accepted here that the total costs would be within that band.”

    No he hasn’t. Read what he actually wrote.

  199. Tam Jardine says:

    It’s amazing how Westminster spending is signed off without significant scrutiny … HS2 costs are very much in the realms of ‘as much as it takes’- a budget that will be dwarved (dwarfed?) by the final bill. Son of trident is the same.

    Over and above the costs is the interest we will pay for decades on the borrowing. It’s a bit like a skint household buying a new jet on tick.

    When it comes to our new sovereign Scotland suddenly the double entry shit gets wheeled out and were counting the pennies, ignoring the fact that hey! WE HAVE A PARLIAMENT. SHE IS GOOD TO GO. WE DONT HAVE TO BUY ANOTHER ONE. And hey! Any cost is offset against the massive saving in not paying for the Lords, Commons, and all the vast innards of the UK state.

    And if they play hardball on currency we jettison the debt.

    Was there ever a country or nation so well prepared for independence yet so constantly belittled? All will be well once we break free.

    It’s all just tactics.

  200. Ken500 says:

    Saving over £10Billion+ a year. A bargain.

    £4Billion on debt repayment not borrowed or spent in Scotland, £3Billion surplus going to UK Treasury. £1.5Billion saved from Trident redundant weaponry, £1.5Billion saved by a tax on cheap,’loss leading’ alcohol. = £10Billion. + savings on HS2, tax evasion, illegal wars and corp tax paid through City of London HQ’s for commercial activity in Scotland.

    £1.5Billion over TEN years is a positive bargain and the economic gain. Instead of £8Billion+ a year going to Westminster.

  201. JWil says:

    The unnamed reporter?

    It was bound to be the dishonourable Chrichton and he has avoided putting his name to it so that he can disown it for evermore.

    Blatant lying just comes naturally to the Record. They have thrown discretion to the wind. No respect.

  202. Neil Craig says:

    So still no actual dispute that what Stuart called “lies” were not lies, merely did not fit the agenda of the pro-Fascist Yes camp.

  203. Adrian B says:

    So still no actual dispute that what Stuart called “lies” were not lies, merely did not fit the agenda of the pro-Fascist Yes camp.

    Please enough of the constant snippy remarks and name calling that imply that your somehow on a higher plane.

    The Professor has been quite clear on the facts surrounding his figures used in the public domain:

    No one on this sight is keen on replying solely because of your poor adult behaviour which can be seen by all as it is in the public domain.

  204. NODROG says:

    Neil Craig

    Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black Neil when you use the term “pro-Fascist” to describe a very large group.

  205. Tom Foyle says:

    As an Englishman who has lived in, and loved, Scotland for well over 20 years, I’m able to see both sides. But having witnessed the financial rape of Scotland by Westminster, and having a good understanding of the motives of politicians, I feel that Scotland could only benefit from independence, and benefit greatly. The revenue England receives from north of the border is massive and subsidises much of that country’s expenditure. Losing that revenue terrifies Westminster, which is probably the reason they have resorted to outright lies and character defamation to attempt to secure the “no” vote. What worries me is the possibility of some kind of false flag event created to scare people into voting the way they want. It wouldn’t surprise me. Keep your eyes peeled, folks, don’t let them fool you!

  206. Will Podmore says:

    So, You and My Comb, we all seem to agree that Professor Patrick Dunleavy’s report said that a separate Scotland could face setting-up costs of up to £1.5 billion, spread over ten years.
    It’s no surprise to any of us that Whitehall wastes £200 million a year – I’m surprised it’s not far worse than that. But why is that an argument for break-up rather than for a united struggle to change these abuses?

  207. Adrian B says:

    Scotland could face setting-up costs of up to £1.5 billion, spread over ten years.

    From the text of lies packed tight, the story at the start of this thread. I have added bold text for emphasis.

    “Professor Dunleavy’s estimate for “the initial set-up costs” hasn’t changed at all. It’s still £200m, with another £400m of transition costs spread over a decade. And he at no point stated that the £1.5bn figure was his own view. Indeed, he explicitly says the £1.5bn figure is “not a number I accept”.

    So that is setup costs with a one off cost of £200 million and a further £40m for transition costs per year for each of the following ten years approx.

  208. Will Podmore says:

    Stuart wrote, “Professor Dunleavy mentions a possible theoretical maximum of £1.5bn.” But even on Professor Dunleavy’s lower figure of £600, a breakaway Scotland would have to spend £600 million, that is, £600 million you would not have to spend if you did not break away from the rest of Britain.
    I’m sure we can all think of better uses for £600 million, when a sixth of Scots are in poverty, including 200,000 children; when a quarter of Scots are in fuel poverty; when 435,000 workers are paid below the living wage; and when only 56.6 per cent of 16-24-year-olds are in work.

  209. Murray McCallum says:

    Which one of the UK’s political parties has suddenly changed its manifesto and is offering change?

    They would seem to be limited and constrained by having to appease 60+ million voters across a wide political, economic and social spectrum.

    Maybe this explains why smaller countries tend to be more cohesive and successful?

  210. Will Podmore says:

    Murray asks “Maybe this explains why smaller countries tend to be more cohesive and successful?” Hmm, Haiti, for example? Greece? Which just loves being in the EU.

  211. Murray McCallum says:

    Will Podmore

    You don’t seem to comprehend the meaning of “tend”. Why don’t you research who tend to be the more successful, fair, and happy countries?

    You have to start thinking outside of your box, as they say.

  212. Will Podmore says:

    So evidence against your theory can be dismissed …

Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.

↑ Top