Learning to fall
Posted on
October 01, 2016 by
Chris Cairns
The world's most-read Scottish politics website
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A tall tale
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Bang on the money, Chris.
They keep saying Brexit has had no effect, but Brexit ain’t happened yet; when it does the brown stuff will hit the fan, big style.
Foxy!
Or to put it another way – “Up sh*t creek without a paddle!”
When he finally smacks the the ground, is that a “hard Brexit”?
jimnarlene:
I am minded of the old joke:
‘What’s the last thing that goes through a fly’s mind when it hits your windscreen?
Its arse.’
Ace, as usual, Cairns.
jimnarlene:
I am minded of the old joke:
‘What’s the last thing that goes through a fly’s mind when it hits your windscreen?
Its arse.’
Ace, as usual, Cairns.
Oh dear, oh dear.
Aye Jimnarlene,
The entite media keep running with the ‘oh, look brexit has not been as damaging as they said’ nonsense, when brexit hasn’t even happened. Looks like Liam Fox has believed his own spin.
The predictions of damage, were made prior to the vote, on the assumption article 50 would be invoked the day after the result. It is what was expected would be done. Brexit still has not happened.
ALL the signs show, that brexit is going to seriously damage the UK economy, jobs, and perhaps most ironically the UK’s standing in the world. An independent Scotland within the EU, will be seen as a progressive forward thinking smart country, compared to the narrow minded neo-fascist, bigotted, racist and isolationist England outside the EU.
Scary times.
Brilliant! Sums it all up really.
(Meanwhile down below, the BBC are covering the event and “explaining” that everything is just fine and dandy and nothing whatever for their viewers’ dear little heads to worry about, while The Daily Slug is extolling the proficiency of The Flying F*x’s aerobatic skills. Which is something the SNP obviously can’t do, ‘cos they’re so baaad…)
What’s the worst that can happen…..!?
@Mumsyhugs, up shit creek without a paddle…..or a boat 🙁
Robert Peston, he of ex-BBC, has a wee nuclear bomb about Foxy negotiating trade deals right, left and centre before Brexit; not allowed.
Assuming he does deals with USA, Canada, Australia, China and Bingo Bongo Land, the UK could never get direct access to EU single market as in all single country deals the EU makes will exclude goods containing a certain % of 3rd market components or raw materials. We would need to prove they are “substantially British.”
AS it is, all UK produce is designated to conform to EU rules and does not have to justify any 3rd party content. End of.
The rule is designed to block back door entry of 3rd Country products redesignated British.
So Fox is Ferked
link to R Peston’s facebook piece
link to facebook.com
The best analogy is surely the one about the fellow who jumps off the top of a fifty story skyscraper … and as he sails past the tenth floor he´s heard to remark, ¨So far, so good!¨ 🙂
[…] Source: Wings Over Scotland Learning to fall […]
Great toon. Free fall, not free trade.
Caught the moment superbly.
By moment, we mean months of aimless free fall!
Will he/they pull the ESM rip cord? Or, will he/they plumet on to a very hard landing?
Continued ESM membership is the only sensible form of Brexit. It is, however, everything the Leavers campaigned against!
They even try to claim the Brexit Vote has had no effect.
22 June 2016 $1.47 to £
Today $1.29 to £
They’re talking keech. Wonder where it’ll be when BREXIT really DOES happen?
Strictly on the basis – someone has to do it – I took a look at the Daily Heil’s website this morning.
I beseech all other Wingers: DON’T DO IT – PLEASE.
There is an article by the loathsome Quentin Letts, which is surely the most-offensive and deluded pile of keech which even that jumped-up prick has ever come up with.
Anyone who believes the absolute bollocks he has written must have more than one screw loose.
Truly, that man, and his rotten paper, have truly lost it.
“I can fly, I can fly!”
Och, you have to admit though:
Those yoons know how to fall with style. 🙂
They will get a fright when they pull the ripcord and find out Boris packed the parachutes with UJ underpants.
Aye Proud Cybernat and if they think their best of buddy neo liberal American capitalists will not take advantage of a collapsing sterling they are in for an awful shock.
A fine cartoon, Chris.
That’s what happens when Adam Werritty stows away in your backpack.
Socrates: I won’t look. Things ablow the dyke are going completely mad.
That looks like a faragechute he has on. When he pulls the ripcord a wee union flag pops out with the word BANG on it. Then the hard reality of gravity comes into play followed by the hard reality of the ground.
Brexit is like jumping from a plane…you are guaranteed a fall.
Plus you don’t need a parachute if you only do it once.
I see Ken Clarke is saying that the UK Brexit team are clueless.
The landing might be painful to watch.
What a complete phony is Fox, and allegedly with direct connections to weapon manufacturers. Another Scotsman on the make.)A fine cartoon, Chris. In time, a colleague will tamper with his parachute; so, your lampoon is prescient.
Your weekend reading:
Lesser of two evils: link to wp.me
Indiana Forrest: link to wp.me
Nail on the head yet again, Chris, and meanwhile the totally rotten Scottish media are nothing more than pawns in the employ of the Westminster Establishment.
Wingers may not have noticed the present Scottish media feeding frenzy about the exploits of a certain English, “Duke and Duchess of Cambridge”.
So just why are we in Scotland being regaled in the Scottish, and United Kingdom media, by the exploits of this foreign to us, “English Duke of Cambridge”?
He is, in a United Kingdom context, His Royal Highness Prince William Arthur Philip Louis,?
In an English only context he is designated as, His Royal Highness Prince William Arthur Philip Louis, Duke of Cambridge.
In a Scottish only context his proper designation is, His Royal Highness Prince William Arthur Philip Louis Earl of Strathearn
In an Northern Ireland only context he is designated, His Royal Highness Prince William Arthur Philip Louis, Baron Carrickfergus.
So just why do Scottish media outlets insist in completely ignoring the UK designation of Prince William and use by choice the English only title Duke of Cambridge?
Is it just one more, not so, subtle way to show the Scots, Welsh and N.Irish that England takes precedence over, not only the United Kingdom but also over Ireland, Wales and Scotland in all things.
Mr Guy Verhofstadt packed the parachute!
Even Anna Soubry calls Liam Fox “almost delusional”. You can’t get more delusional than that.
link to politicshome.com
Wonder if, when he pulls the ripcor,d all the cords in the ‘chute have sabotaged.
I was surprised to read that some north american indians
sent funds to ireland to help during the famine.
I wonder if there are any african pop stars planning a
‘feed the english’ concert when this lunacy kicks in.
And all this stuff about hard borders and walls…?
to keep people in?
Yoons just hope Liam &Co lands on somebody else’s head
“The way of the Yoon”
Brexit in cartoon form?
link to youtube.com
Robert Peffers says:
“So just why do Scottish media outlets …. use by choice the English only title Duke of Cambridge?”
… or when did we last hear Chas Windsor given his proper title, Duke of Rothesay?
Scotland has been subjected to the Greater England world view propaganda for 300 years. It has all stepped up a gear in the last 4.
Um – here in Brechin we always refer to him as Rothesay, just saying like.
parachute marked
Opens on impact
“Scotland has been subjected to the Greater England world view propaganda for 300 years. It has all stepped up a gear in the last 4.”
True, galamcennalath, but control of the media is being lost everyday with the decline of the MSM in the face of the interwebthingy and this site in particular, hence the ramping up of lies and xenophobia. I view this as a sign of their panic and desperation.
Robert Peffers outlined recently the almost complete UKOKian control in post-war UK: only one broadcaster until the late 50s and a highly-controlled Unionist press. We inhabit a very different Scotland today, for all we complain about 36 newspapers ranged against us.
Judging England by the tone and content of its newspapers reminds me very much of inter-war Germany and it feels more and more like what it is, a different country.
We just need to formalise it.
Excellent letter from our own Dave McEwan Hill in today’s National, answering the daft letter from Carole Ford yesterday. A great cut out & keep reference point sort of letter. That’ll likely be the same Carole Ford that was a failed Lib Dem candidate in the Holyrood elections for Glasgow Kelvin.
Remember brexit’s telling the Scottish Fishermen they would have full control come RUK day. How come on the local anglo radio the centralised Westminster folk are apparently thinking that Eng… sorry British fishing can be centred on Brixham or Plymouth.
I assume Scottish fisherman are too wee , too poor nah — just gullible
When Fox bought 100 parachutes for 50 euros he misunderstood the ‘no strings attached’ offer.
Tinto Chiel says:
“England … reminds me very much of inter-war Germany and it feels more and more like what it is, a different country.”
Yes, England and Scotland are on different paths and get further apart almost daily. Those who don’t see this are, for their own reasons, deluding themselves.
The trend has a dark side too … Both England (and the US perhaps) appear to have fascism creeping up on them and a lot of people don’t seem to see it for what it is, nor where it could disastrously lead. That too is a parallel with the 30s.
Right wing politics can be beguilingly simplistic!
I can unfortunately foresee an iScotland with a nasty neighbour. It doesn’t have to be this way, but the ultra right rumblings from England are now too numerous to come to nothing.
I do not understand why people who want independence for Scotland are happy to swap being ruled by one country England to being ruled by 27 other countries in the eu., I personally do not want to be part of the eu., or NATO the United Nations etc., and definitely no special relationship with America I want independence to be real and mean exactly that
Blair
If we are in the EU we can decide not to have nuclear weapons. In ruk union we are told we must have them. If ruk wants to go to war -we are told we are at war. In EU we are not.
Try thinking fOr yourself –or do you need RUK to tell you how and what?
Aye, ah richt fankle.
Blair, being in the EU is not being ruled by the EU.
‘Ouch!’
OT
What nobody seems to have noticed is that North Sea Oil and gas have just suddenly got a lot cheaper to produce and therefore more valuable.
This is because most of the extraction costs are in Sterling whereas oil is sold in dollars.
The recent loss in value of the pound means that North Sea extraction costs have suddenly dropped by something over 10%, or, if you like, the value of the oil against sterling has increased by 10%.
Not that Scotland will benefit. It is just more for Westminster to squander.
Blair Paterson says:
1 October, 2016 at 12:20 pm
I do not understand why people who want independence for Scotland are happy to swap being ruled by one country England to being ruled by 27 other countries in the eu.,
They are 2 completely different unions Blair, as you know full well. Tell us how Scotland’s ruled by 27 EU countries?
For starters Cameron didn’t need any EU permission to hold his referendum and the UK did not have the EU Project Fearing the living shit out of the everyone, BBC 2014 style. Nor did the EU pop up with a The Vow style historic fraud on the UK and so on…
Its your kind of faux ignorance that bleeds the life out of democracy everywhere. See current The Donald Trump for Prez campaign.
Looks like Liam Fox is finally going to make an impact!
Brexit hasn’t happened yet.
Expect crash on delivery…
re; Blair P@12.20
Where have you been all this time. We have been discussing this on WoS, and other online news sites for eons. At present, RUK cracks the whip over Scotland, the whip is getting longer and stronger, been going on for a few hundreds of years, what they say, we do. As far as they are concerned, end of.
Yes, we are in effect, ‘ruled by’ WM, with devolution light and the Scotgov working near miracles to keep us afloat, and to ensure we stay in the 21st century, not be taken backwards, as is going to be the case with england’s brexit.
As an EQUAL member, within the EU, we will be part of the decision making, unlike now, where we have nowhere near enough representation in the EU for Scotland.
If we will be under the ‘rule’ of 27 other countries, who ‘rules’ them? Do they ‘rule’ each other? Is there a higher being ‘ruling’ them? Hmmm.
Far as I know as a member of the EU, you have equal rights and responsibilities, which sounds like a sensible way to conduct our affairs in the 21st century.
The countries of the world need to work together. If we set adrift, wave the fleg just living on hope, listening to the very hot air from the unionists, ever more right wing politicians, it hardly bares thinking about what the consequences will be.
@Blair
The way the two unions work is completely different, and they have very little in common besides having the word ‘union’ in their names. If you want to differentiate between them it’s their differences you need to look at, not their similarities.
The EU has very little rule over the running of its members’ countries compared to the rule that Westminster has over the UK as a whole and even over Scotland.
We don’t have all our tax revenues funnelled direct to the EU treasury as happens in the UK to HMG Treasury. We just pay a membership fee to the EU, and a lot of that comes back, along with real benefits from the membership.
And they don’t claim absolute sovereignty over all aspects of EU countries’ populations as Westminster does over its population.
The only legislation they do impose is pretty much all about maintaining a properly level playing field in the European Single Market and related matters, and ensuring that the captains of industry treat their workers with respect.
The long and short of it is that you clearly haven’t been paying the slightest bit of attention to the subject, and that is why you don’t understand the position of Scotland’s desire for independence within the EU.
The Disgraced Liam Fox.
Another lie. There is no parachute!
Can you imagine the sweetners that May will have to offer the likes of Toyota just to stay in the UK for a wee bit longer?
There must be a time coming when the creditors have had enough and finally pull the plug on Blighty. It won’t be pretty.
Utterly mind-boggling.
I still say independence should mean just that nobody else has the power to tell you how to live you decide everything for your selfe It’s as simple as that
Blair Paterson says:
1 October, 2016 at 1:10 pm
I still say independence should mean just that nobody else has the power to tell you how to live you decide everything for your selfe It’s as simple as that
So is building a wall, a beautiful wall, along the Mexican border, style of nonsense. And you still cant say why and how the 27 EU members rule Scotland and Scots. Funny that.
@Blair Paterson
Funny thing with those ideas is that even if we manage to gain Independence we’ll still be actually physically part of the British Isles and there’s nothing can or should be done about that because we’ll still need to co-operate with one another but on a different basis
If you’re going to fall for the great UKIP idea that somehow one country no matter it’s size can go around dictating to everybody else what will and will not happen then I must suggest I believe you’re looking at things the wrong way with respect
Scotland can be one of the greatest little countries on earth but with the right co-operation from others in a consensus of Nations our strengths can be recognised as having a useful importance in the world
The remaining 27 countries aren’t daft, they might moan from time to time but don’t we all
The EU is not perfect, but it’s overall plan is not to stifle growth but to enhance it that’s just good management
The UK however does stifle Scotland and does it deliberately in order to maintain control and economic power over us otherwise why do they want to keep us in their Union and are now running around trying to stay in the EU but without telling the English electorate that’s what they’re actually doing while shouting publicly Brexit means Brexit
Englands democracy is based on “We decide what democracy is” and then they feed it to us afterwards in doses small enough to be acceptable until their whole rotten plan becomes obvious but by then it’s too late and they F….d us again
In the EU Scotlands Independence will go a lot smoother with support behind us whereas out of the EU England would make life difficult for us because that’s just what they’re like and I suspect you probably know that
Just one other observation, total Independence as you describe it, will never be voted for in Scotland ever in enough numbers to amount to even putting the question and I can tell you now it won’t be the SNP asking the people that question so you’d need to find somebody else
So who would that be?
Independence Live is broadcasting live video on RIC conference in Glasgow: After the British State.
link to tinyurl.com
There’s been some good stuff this morning.
blair
the point of indy is to be able to make these choices for ourselves, the eu result is nothing more than a lever.
your opinion and your vote count for nothing until indy.
you might favour the euref result, but it wasnt your decision. we could have all abstained, it wouldnt have made a blind bit of difference. Favouring the status quo with the UK because it supports your short term aim of leaving the EU, is an acceptance that someone else can make all decisions for you going forward. Such disenfranchement means there is no long term for you or Scotland
“After the British State” Independence Live is livestreaming video on RIC conference in Glasgow:
link to tinyurl.com
There’s been some good stuff this morning.
Blair at 12:20
Blair if you were to join a Golf Club, you’d be expected to respect their membership rules, but it’s pushing reality to say your life is suddenly ruled by the Golf Club. Truth is yes, there is a tiny, tiny part of your life which kinda is ruled by the Golf Club, but only where it applies to the Golf Clubs rules, and the Golf Clubs business, and only far as you signed up to joining it.
Spiked shoes aren’t barred from the clubhouse to rule your life and cramp you flair for fashion, they are banned because they wreck the carpets.
Independence is all about sovereignty, and having the power to make your own decision. You can choose to join the Golf Club, or you can choose not to bother, and the Golf Club has no other option but to respect your decision. If you choose to join the club, then you submit yourself to the clubs rules, but that’s as simple and as complicated as it gets.
The only control the Golf Club holds over you is asking you to respect their membership rules and pay their membership fees, and those are issues which you sign up to by your own free will because you want to be a member and play Golf.
What the UK wants is access to the European Golf Club’s manicured greens and fairways but without being a member of the Club or subject to the Club’s regulations.
Fox’s learning to fall
Cos he ain’t read Wings.
Coming doon oan his
Brek shit strings.
Blair Paterson says:
“I do not understand why people who want independence for Scotland are happy to swap being ruled by one country England to being ruled by 27 other countries in the eu.,”
I wouldn’t understand that either, but since no one has ever suggested it, it’s all rather hypothetical!
The ‘interference’ of the EU in Scottish affairs to date has been VERY Iight touch compared to devastation London has wrought on Scotland.
And I would propose what the EU has brought in terms of worker and consumer rights has been for the good. What good has London every done here?
IMO the EU is a mild positive and WM rule a massive negative.
Should Fox be doing a tandem skydive with Adam Whatshisface?
Liam Fox…on the ‘Brexit’ documentary was just about ejaculating into his boxers…’The happiest day of my life’ quoth he on the vote to Leave. I looked at his beaming physog and thought dirty fucking ‘Tractor!’
On the same doc was some old Etonian blimp who also was celebrating ‘leave’ and who had made £220 million…yes million..betting on the markets collapsing with the vote.
What a wonderful world we live in.
He seemed nicer, in his mullet haired radio presenting days.
There is now a consensus regarding our Imperial masters handling of the Brexit mega-shambles. The Yanks, Chinese,Europeans and now from within, all saying they’re not up to it.
I will enjoy Dr Foxes 2nd crash and burn. And on recent performance, crash and burn he will.
I’m beginning to think Cruella is either an evil genius, or an evil idiot being played by others. No in between. Either or.
schrodingers cat says:
1 October, 2016 at 1:22 pm
blair
the point of indy is to be able to make these choices for ourselves, the eu result is nothing more than a lever.
Do you want Scotland as an EU member state, with MEP’s that Scotland has elected, representing Scotland and all that that means? Or do you want Scotland represented by the UK and English MEP’s and all that that means?
Brexit and yoon culture tries to bullshit Scotland that Brexit meant taking back Scottish fishing grounds. Who gave them up and why is not discussed. What affects of EU fishing regulation, again not mentioned.
And none of its any different from the ongoing struggles like trying to get Scotland producing green energy to full potential, EU says YES, UK says no, go nukes. And its much more than tory yoons screaming NO to wind-farms in Scotland.
Whatever Scots think or want means absolutely jack shit in the UK.
Nice example of yoon double whammy rancid The Graun style, Scotland is SNP shite and badly run SNP shite. Also, EU bad too.
link to archive.is
“Gardner revealed, however, that ministers had lost £14m from the EU after bungling structural funds rules for business growth and skills packages. It also faced further financial penalties after a new £178m IT system for farm subsidies was badly botched.”
Blair – I think you need some perspective:
link to imgur.com
Or maybe you would like Scotland to be as isolationist like North Korea?
@Proud Cybernat
Yes, summed nicely in two simple graphs. Should be shown on Indy leaflets!
My but Mr Paterson is certainly getting a lot of attention. I could see the point if his comments were insightful or even mildly interesting. The guy’s a troll. Laying bait for the unsuspecting. Please wisen up, everyone.
@ Manandboy
Concern trolls are a pain but I look upon their faux concern as an opportunity to present evidence not to them but to those who may be lurking.
Ta Blair. You have your uses.
Proud Cycbernat@1.59
Couldn’t agree more.
Perfect, Breeks.
This was really meant for the last topic, bit late getting it finished had to work
link to videobin.org
They’re parachuting plastic BoE fivers into Scotland, got three in my change from three different outlets just this morning and guess what, as a wee act of defiance I bought a 3 pound Scottish flag and the shopkeeper refused to take the currency. It’s okay though, I had a legal BoS one in my hipper.
Ya gootta laff 😀
Has Free Falling ever come at such a cost?
You may recall Fox had a “mate” touring with him for “free”
when he went of on official government foreign trade business
His pal appeared to be officially endorsed by the UK government, when he was actually a gate crashing free loader.
It gave an unfair advantage to him over similar other UK manufactures.
Fox was given a slap on the right and took a back seat for a short time, before being promoted?
Break the rules, dupe foreign governments and companies, and get promoted?
Of course Liam’s mate wouldn’t have given him anything for his troubles?
Why can’t Fox and the right wing government not hear the EU when they say that they must be hard on the UK or it might encourage others to leave and kill off Brussels?
If they want to trade in the EU, they can pay vast sums and keep their borders open with Europe, forfeiting any voting rights that they previously had.
Why when the USA says join the queue for a Trade Deal with them, do they not understand that it would take many years to complete and the USA would have the stronger hand in ripping us off?
Fox really thinks that the countries of the old Empire that were raped, robbed, and pillaged by Westminster for centuries want to go back to the “good” old days.
Never!
Only Mad Dogs and Englishmen believe in Murdoch’s Sun.
Bugger (the Panda) says:
1 October, 2016 at 8:44 am
link to R Peston’s facebook piece
Whoa some comments on that FB page
“Mike Claydon: If a further referundum was held there would be an overwelming majority to LEAVE – far more than 52% according to my information. Scotland cannot opt out of the refereundum – they voted 55% to stay in the UK. In facet they are probably being supported by England duet o reduction in oil revenues.n any event if they want to leave UK they must have their own central bank and own currency otherwise England will control their economy.”
25 September at 06:23.
My God if they had a brain cell they would be dangerous!
Fcuk knows what “high” tories, geddit, are doing with Brexit but Scottish red and blue yoon culture is just as disorientating.
Vote NO or see your taxes hiked in indy Scotland, they raged 2014. 2016 and its all, hike our taxes under UK reign of the Scotland region NOW, they rage.
Confused.com. Wonder what UKOK dingdongs like these red and blue toryboys say when asked though.
Scott Arthur Retweeted
Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 3h3 hours ago
Dave Watson from Unison: The SNP have dumped austerity on to local government.
Scott Arthur Retweeted
Kevin Hague ?@kevverage 5h5 hours ago
Kevin Hague Retweeted Radical Independence
I wonder if he’ll recognise the possibility that maybe it’s such hard work because it’s not a very good idea?
Ultimately, all this UKOK “tax me more NOW” yoon rage on twitter, begs questions like, why do red and blue tory yoons like Dr NO! want to pay higher taxes in the UK but not in an independent Scotland?
You can ask the yoons of Scotland questions like this all day but all you get is SNP bad, shock.
Exactly Lochside what these Brexit idiots do not understand is that the only people who will feel the benefit is the rich and powerful the same people who tell them Brexit will be good,yes it will for them but for ordinary people well you will pay for it.
But as usual England`s electorate will moan about it,make satirical TV shows,criticize those in power for their actions but do fuck all about it until 20 years later when they figure out they were taking for chumps,then they will hold inquiries making the same bunch even richer with an outcome of inquiry white wash by the same establishment which they will then vote the same con artists back into power.
The only conclusion to this is that the people of England are incapable of running their own country never mind anybody else`s country.
I wish them well with their new momentum movement and i pray it will bring sense back to their country even though i do believe they are being conned once again and that the Labour party is not the vehicle to bring about that change since they are establishment.
heedtracker says:
“why do red and blue tory yoons … want to pay higher taxes in the UK but not in an independent Scotland?”
Confused is right.
“why” implies there is underlying logic to their ranting. There is no logic. They are panicked and hysterical, well beyond any logical thought.
Which is a bit disconcerting to listen to, but basically a good sign I reckon. Their world is so churned up now that it no longer makes sense to even them. We have no hope of understanding how they think any longer. 🙄
galamcennalath says:
1 October, 2016 at 4:12 pm
heedtracker says:
Yoon rage isn’t pretty or fair, but its very mental for tories red and blue to monster SNP Scots.gov for austerity cuts, considering their appalling and ongoing UKOK Project Fearing campaign.
Red tories like Dr NO! are even more disorientating than blue tories.
Say SLab get in and hike PAYE, the only The Vow thing that Westminster allowed, its oing to be very easy to dodge at the top end but impossible at the middle and lower end. Who are in the middle and lower end PAYE sectors, the public sector workforce.
Yet here we are watching the red tories rage away for tax hikes on the same workforce currently trying to deal with blue tory UK austerity, that SLab and the Tories raged at us to stay under control of.
And that’s not even going to near the likely economic catastrofuck, if PAYE goes up in Scotland and not in England. But for yoon culture and Britnats like Dr NO!, it doesn’t matter. Its all Sturgeon fault, get the SNP out, BBC Scotland will sell the rest.
If all this red and blue yoon tub thumping led by BBC Scotland does eventually work, and it should really theoretically, our PAYE goes up under Kez, SLab Scots gov Holyrood do the absolute bare minimum for its Scotland region, but the Lords awaits and a lovely seat next to Lord Darling , for ever. Tasty.
Future SLabour Scots.gov doing the absolute bare minimum for its Scotland region, is ofcourse a best case scenario.
Thanks again proud Scotbuts.
OT
A trick the Herald does sometimes is change the order of postings as they appear. So no matter which option you select, oldest, most popular, you get the posting theyw ant to be – at the top. I checked times even, and times on their own without am or pm, or date, still get put to the top out of sequence.
Very devious, and dishonest.
@blair
Give it a rest about EU. We just had a Referendum on EU and 62% of those that could be bothered voting in Scotland voted to stay in the EU. I am more concerned about the alleged 55% that voted to remain part of the sleazy corrupt warmongering UKOK State.
The EU even though I voted leave is now a dead issue for me. It is quite clear that there isn’t much chance of Scotland leaving the EU of its own “free will” anytime soon. I have moved on to the vastly more important issue and that is how to get free of British UKOK Misrule! Sooner rather than later!
I can assure you I am no troll I am 77years old and I have worked all my life for Scottish independence people who know me get fed up with me going on and on about all the time but I will still go on as long as I live untill we achieve it,but all your replies will not change my view of what independence should be look at a dictionary and see what the word means I did not write my first blog to upset or offend anyone I was was only stating what I honestly believe
“why do red and blue tory yoons … want to pay higher taxes in the UK but not in an independent Scotland?”
Scotgov should set up a special fund for people to pay into, if they want the opportunity to pay more tax. That should shut them up.
Ot .,can anyone tell me why I have to put in my name and email address etc., every time I want to blog in to this site on all the other sites my details remain on them ?
@ Blair Paterson
One step at a time Blair first step must be to get rid of the UK any way we can,once that is achieved all those other questions then become relevant but not before.
First we need an independent Scottish government so we are free to make those decisions on our own the status quo does not allow that and we will always be outvoted by England the latest example is Brexit.
@Blair Paterson
For my browser (Firefox) if I put in the first letter, or even click on the blank box, the rest appears in a pull-down list so I just click on the appropriate entry rather than entering the whole thing.
@Blair Paterson
I meant double-click. It’s cookies, some sites use them, some don’t, and also depends on your broswer settings. I guess Wings doesn’t use cookies which personally I think is a good thing.
@Iain More 4.48pm
“The EU even though I voted leave is now a dead issue for me. It is quite clear that there isn’t much chance of Scotland leaving the EU of its own “free will” anytime soon. I have moved on to the vastly more important issue and that is how to get free of British UKOK Misrule! Sooner rather than later!”
Precisely!
According to EUref polls around 35% of SNP supporters voted Leave, it would be interesting to know how many of those feel the same way as Iain More (not saying you are SNP). For IndieRef2 this would be one of the key segments.
@Blair Paterson
Read your posts. Yes, there are a lot of YES voters don’t want the EU, some of whom voted Leave.
From the hustings last week it appears Alyn Smith SNP MEP is doing a survey of people who voted Leave, haven’t looked so can’t help you find it. His idea is to reach out, see what the problems are, that sort of thing.
The EU issue for YES and Leave supporters is one I think the SNP and hopefully all of YES recognise as a vyer genuine issue. I have seen many pro-Indy posters over the last nearly 5 years now, wishing Independence wasn’t tied to staying in the EU. And I have little doubt some people voted NO in September against Indy for that reason.
My answer to that then was that after perhaps 5 years or Independence, Scotland should hold a “confirmation” referendum on EU membership, and theat YES should put that in the material, with the SNP putting it in Scotland’s Future. It didn’t happen 🙁
But it’s more difficult now. It looks very likely the EU will keep us in just as long as we’ve voted YES in Indy Ref 2, and that’s vital for the whole rationale behind holding Indy Ref 2 – “Material change”. So it needs to be tackled delicately, as otherwise the EU might say “What’s the point in keepign you in, you’re just going to have an EU Ref and aybe vote to Leave after all our trouble”.
I doubt the SNP or official YES will be able to say anything about that, but it doesn’t stop us discussing it, and let’s face it, after 5 years of Independence support for the EU might have risen to 80% which is fine, or dropped to 40^ or even 30%, in which case a Referendum would become inevitable.
‘From the hustings last week it appears Alyn Smith SNP MEP is doing a survey of people who voted Leave, haven’t looked so can’t help you find it. His idea is to reach out, see what the problems are, that sort of thing.’
My SNP hub on the eve of the EURef had piles of Wee Bleu Books sitting there doing f**k all. Could have been widely distributed. The UK media do nothing to inform about how the EU works, in fact they do the exact opposite, so a Leave vote shouldnt have been a surprise.
This is worth a read:
link to blogs.ec.europa.eu
OT Just saw a reference to this on Twitter which reminded me of it. A Panelbase poll last Nov for WoS….
Which of these statements is closest to your view?
30% I would never vote for independence under any circumstances
28% I’m not convinced by the case for independence, but I’m not opposed to it on principle
41% Scotland should definitely be an independent country
… which shows exactly why we can win this!
Put another way, 30% are BritNats beyond conversion, while 69% are open to persuasion or have already ‘seen the light’.
Interesting example of BBC ‘journalism’:
link to counterpunch.org
Independence and EU membership.
When Scotland becomes independent there will have to be a degree of renegotiation of the terms of our EU membership. It is unlikely that the terms under which the UK is currently a member would be transferred in full to an independent Scotland. Nor in fact would we want them too since some, eg fishing, as they stand may not be in our best interests.
Once the details of the new terms are known then they can be put to the people of Scotland for their final approval.
To do otherwise would be rule by diktat not debate and in no way reassemble democracy. Yet that is the way the UK government intend to proceed and for which they have been rightly criticised. It would appear that the UK government, and only the UK government will make the decision. Parliament will have no role and it is this sidelining of Parliament at every stage of the Brexit process that has resulted in the matter being taken to the courts.
That is not a model an independent Scotland should ever consider.
I cannot understand the rationale behind the position of those who say they will vote against independence because it is linked to continuing membership of the EU. That continuing membership is conditional on the deal an independent Scotland negotiated with the EU and it’s acceptance by the people of Scotland. You would get the chance to vote against it but surely you are democrat enough to accept the majority view if it is pro-EU?
I think it would be pro-EU because Scotland’s connection to Europe is deeper than mere trade.
@ yesindyref2
Agreed mate even the figures for the EU referendum we just had was not a real reflection on Scottish thought.
A lot of yessers voted to remain knowing that a leave vote in England would open up another chance at indy,when i put my X on the ballot paper i wasn’t thinking about the EU i was thinking about a chance to escape the UK.
I also spent the run up to the EU ref trolling England with how Brexit would be so great for them,i knew i was lying but then i will do anything to free my country from westminster tyranny 😉
Mumsyhugs says at 7:34 am
Or to put it another way – “Up sh*t creek without a paddle!”
Indeed, as I’ve said before..
They have seen where we’re headed so they’ve already started selling paddles, up SH+T creek.
Blair I understand what you’re saying, see where you’re coming from, however one step at a time. Let’s use this unique situation to get rid of Westminster and then if we have reservations about the EU we can hold our own Referendum: That is by considering the full facts unadulterated by lies and scaremongering.
The EU is far from perfect but it’s managed to rein in some of Westminster’s ‘excesses’. Have you considered what life will be like for Scots in an unfettered Labour or worse still Tory ruled UK? Have you considered the damage that’s been done by one Tory and Labour leader, after another, for decades now?
Have you considered the poor performance of UK MEPs in Brussels, how little they have done for us, over the last 40 years not just for Scotland but for the UK in general? As an example Farage hasn’t bothered to attend fishery committee meetings, not one, over the last 3 / 4 years. Don’t you think that our own MEPs could do a much better job for us? With Independence we’d also find ourselves in a position to hold them to account: Demand greater transparency.
I have reservations about the EU in particular the ‘finance industry’ and open border policy. I reckon that countries within the EU should have full control over who actually lives and works in their country. This could change of course and you can see that this very subject is top of the EU agenda. The EU could, in fact, implode altogether over the next few years or so.
So all I’m really saying is let’s strike while the iron’s hot. Let’s get out of this dictatorship while we can.
Don’t forget too that leaving the EU (with 500,000 million of a population / single market) and the UK (who control embassies abroad) at the same time, with all the red tape / legislation involved, would be a kami-kazi move for us. Vote for Independence and see where it takes us.
Blair I’ve just come across a post by Nana on the last article (2:06pm). On my IPad so can’t post the link.
‘Councils to be allowed to opt out of Child Protection Law.’ This is a good example of a UK unfettered by the EU. This is just the start. Article 50 hasn’t even been triggered yet. God only knows what’s coming next.
O/t
Condolances to the supporters, family and friends of the Rangers football supporters injured in today’s coach crash.
Special thoughts go to the relatives of the man reported to be fatally injured.
Whatever team anyone supports or even those with no interest in footie this is a tragic and nasty accident and I hope we all can wish the survivors a full and speedy recovery
Is it borders that define a country or is it her people?
Borders can and do shift all the time, countries expand and shrink and even disappear entirely. Think of the most recent examples such as Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia which are now 6 countries.
Denmark, Sweden and Norway were all one country at some point.
This is a different era from Victorian times Empires are gone and so to is the British Empire.
I’ll answer my own question. It is the people who define a country and Scotlands people are now so far out of tune with that of the rest of the UK that it is time to part ways.
I believe that there now is 50% support for Independence, a support though that is strongly of the younger age group, that is under 55 or so. In that group there is a majority for Independence in excess of 50% and there is no doubting that.
We all know the older generation are more likely to vote, more likely to read a newspaper and more likely to watch the BBC. Propaganda defines their beliefs and that’s difficult to counter.
We need to open their eyes to the reality of the media and their lying propaganda.
We all have mothers and fathers, grannies and grandads so it up to us that have relatives who voted NO in the referendum to persuade them of the case for Independence.
We don’t have to wait on Nicola Sturgeon announcing a date for the next Referendum.
We can all do that from right now.
Blair and everyone else. First things first: an end to the debilitating union with England. An independent Scotland can then deal with everything else [EU, NATO etc] from a position of what’s best for the people of Scotland – something Westminster and the britnats would never allow.
@Petra
I can tell you what’s coming next,a nice new shiny bedroom tax for state pensioners (coz technically that’s a benefit) with under occupancy of council or housing association houses to have their pensions cut or pay up
Can’t get an easier target than that one
Our relationship with the EU has been negotiated by England for the last umpteen
years. Although I’m not a great EU fan I think an independent Scotland could
probably negotiate a better deal than England has done for us. Obviously they have
put their own interest’s first. If we can’t, we would find it a lot easier to leave the EU
than it’s been to leave the UK.
Blair Patterson @ 12.20.
Do you want to see Scotland isolated like England/Wales – of which they are very likely to become?
The EU is not a totalitarian dictatorship which Westminster is progressively becoming. Are not Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands, France, etc. independent countries.
Discussions/debates are considered by the democratically elected Comissioners & than voted on in Parliement, democratically.
In England’s case, in spite of France trying to veto the original application to the then EEC & was successful, it saw itself as superior to the rest. This was France’s fear, the old “English Empire Synadrome”. Try as it may – no pun intended – over the years, it increasingly did not get it’s own way. After years of throwing the toys out of the pram, the spoilt brats have decided to go it on their own. I don’t think India, one of the rapidly emerging nations, will be very condusive to England & welcoming it with open arms, especially how it historically treated the sub-continent. Didn’t Churchill want Ghandi assassinated. Were not the Indian military part of many countries that saved England’s bacon during WW11. And how were they treated afterwards. Australia & New Zealand come into that catagory, albeit to a lasser extent.
No, Blair, the “World” is one planet & two of the deadly sins prevail, avarice & jealousy. Get rid of these then, suddenly, the world becomes a better place.
@Galamcennalath 5.34
The SNP believe there are 30% that are hard-core, will never support Indy. We know there is no point in trying to convert or even debate with them. These are the types that we encounter online, who are motivated to try and derail and deride the SG, and independence.
I hope there is 28% out there truly open to a new offer, and that is since June in particular, because THIS is our last shot at independence. Another loss will be fatal.
Western Isles fishing fleet forced from sea due to crew shortages resulting from work visas changes
link to archive.is
Roboscot 5.40
Many thanks for that.
Always good to have the BBC’s news manufacturing process exposed.
Any chance of linking to the story on the twitter feed, Rev?
The EU are not going to make life easy for the UK. They will want to discourage other countries from leaving so the numpties at Westminster are in for a real shock and so is the UK
@frogesque –
Condolances to the supporters, family and friends of the Rangers football supporters injured in today’s coach crash
Our FM tweeted condolences but some of the replies to her are beyond the pale. Dunno whether to be sick or angry….
link to twitter.com
Blair Paterson says:
1 October, 2016 at 4:55 pm
I can assure you I am no troll I am 77years old and I have worked all my life for Scottish independence people who know me get fed up with me going on and on about all the time but I will still go on as long as I live untill we achieve it,but all your replies will not change my view of what independence should be look at a dictionary and see what the word means I did not write my first blog to upset or offend anyone I was was only stating what I honestly believe
So why do you honestly believe the EU is bad for Scotland, as a nation state?
Why is it so hard to find actual bad things what the EU do to us?
It may be a bureaucrats dream job in Brussels, it may be corrupt, it may be that countries like Greece could be bailed out completely by the EU, it may be that an EU army is the end of days, but there is still no killer app that says the EU is a bad thing for you and me, or there is one.
It looks like just enough English people want to stop immigration from the EU. You can argue all day if this is good old Anglo Saxon xenophobia but this is what shits like Farage have exploited, via the shits that own the BBC. And they are all shits, vicious shits only interested in one thing, blocking progressive liberals that have the sheer gall to tell them they are a pack of shits.
If you haven’t already done so, do watch Craig Murray’s talk on the horrors of what our Establishment oligarchs are up to in the colonies. 20 mins
link to craigmurray.org.uk
LOL the FM trolls the yoons…
link to twitter.com
I think that independence will take as as long as it takes, I don’t think 50 % of the people of Scotland will change their view of the world. No matter what setbacks Scotland will be free. People will be fooled once by the bbc, but when their lies are exposed as such, they will never believe a word they say again. That’s the position of 50% of Scotland’s population and it’s up to us to recruit more believers.
It’s down to us, we will win.
As long as takes.
We will be free.
Blair Paterson (and others of a similar inclination),
Scotland within the UK is like being an indentured servant to a careless master – you get no pay, only board and lodgings, you get told what to do and all the fruits of your labour go to your master (the UK, in this analogy).
On the other hand, an independent Scotland within the EU is like being a member of a mutual club. There are some rules, yes, basically intended to help ensure that everyone is treated the same, but the (relatively modest) membership fee gives access to a whole gamut of useful resources that you wouldn’t otherwise have. A lot of people make that kind of choice very readily in their everyday lives (eg. as a member of a bowls club, a choir, a trade union or whatever) and benefit greatly from the sharing. Like all voluntary associations, in principle it requires some accommodation with the other members, of course, but not in any way that impinges on real autonomy. (Being a member of a choir, for example, obviously means you all have to sing the same songs together at the same time, but it doesn’t force you to sing those songs at any other time!) You could remain standing in isolation on a narrow issue of principle, of course, but the sheer practicality of sharing is far more beneficial, as most people recognise in their everyday lives.
The EU has its faults, and could definitely stand improving, but like all good mutuals, it’s an enabler, not the evil dictator of so much right-wing propaganda.
“L’unité fait la force.” An independent Scotland among its friends within the EU, for example, couldn’t be bullied into a disadvantageous trade deal with a resentful Tory-ruled England. Isn’t that alone worth something?
Blair my Android phone remembers my login details, but my IPad tablet requires me to type the lot in every time. If I had to guess, I’d say you’re on an IPad.
I didn’t/ don’t think you’re a troll at all Blair, but I personally find it frustrating that myths and untruths about the EU are believed and gain purchase when they really shouldn’t.
We’ve all been brainwashed to believe that the EU is this money guzzling undemocratic retirement home for overpaid European bureaucrats which has nothing better to do than dictate changes upon a suffering electorate. We can’t have pints, miles, or imperial measurements, it’s all got to be metric… the usual tosh. Anything for a gripe…
It’s quite natural that some people, in England it seems to be most people, start to believe the spin. Why wouldn’t they? Think about it Blair, when was the last time you heard any positive or progressive story you heard about Europe from the BBC or wider Press? So much poison is bound to colour folks judgement.
I would not dare to suggest you change your views Blair, I can respect your viewpoint completely, but I would perhaps ask you to suspend your judgement about Europe at least until we are Independent, and free to engage with Europe on our own terms, and see a broader picture of European issues unfettered by the BBC’s delinquent anti European agenda.
Its actually a bit like politics. To a large extent, Scottish politics is divided by the constitutional issue, but the pro-Indy lobby knows well this is not the time and place to divide amongst ourselves along divergent policy. That can all come later, but for now, getting independence is the greater priority uniting us all.
I feel the same about Europe. I am pretty pro Europe, but even so, I still want to reserve final judgement until I know what EU membership actually means, not what the BBC says it means.
I’ve definitely noticed a change of pace from Unionist posters. During Indy Ref 1 they were mostly relaxed, up for a laugh, even polite. The opinion polls were at the likes of 30%, 35% YES, why should they worry? Oddschecker had Indy at 4/1 against and so on.
Now the same ones twist and turn, insult and harrass, obsess and stalk. They really are getting desperate as Indy Ref 2 comes closer and closer, as do the Opinion polls.
“Twas brillig, and the slithy toves. Did gyre and gimble in the wabe”.
I’ve absolutely no idea what a slithy tove is, but it sounds appropriate somehow!
Keep calm, cool, collected, polite as possible. They’re on the run, tails between their legs, and emissions fit for a skunk. Meanwhile I think there are more undecided lurkers and even the occasional poster, about.
And so it begins: May to announce tomorrow a bill to repeal European Communities Act of 1972.
link to archive.is
ref. ” Blair ” The EU has been a good friend to Scotland. In the early years of our membership
many infrastructure projects especially in the Highlands& Islands benefited from EU funding ie . roads, bridges , Also, many Scottish fledgling commercial enterprises benefited from grant assistance etc. Think of it this way , membership fees levied on the UK London government were REDISTRIBUTED by the EU to assist the poorer areas ( eg Scotland) . Would Scotland have received any of this funds directly from Westminster ??. Perhaps our friends on the continent have over many decades NOTED how the Westminster governments ( both Labour& Tory) have mistreated Scotland over the years , and just perhaps ” redressed the balance” somewhat??. If after Brexit, you think that the Wesminster Tory government is going to change its policy & attitude to Scotland ” any time soon” then my opinion certainly would ” beg to differ” .
The probability is that we would return to the 1950’s and 1960’s situation whereby our young people would be forced to move South for work, where our own local authorities , health service and private enterprises thus would have to recruit skilled& managerial staff from RUK and overseas ( non EU ) and a UK government strict immigration policy would stifle any prospect of population growth and any consequent economic growth for our economy. This is exactly how the UK Tory government intends to chain Scotland to the Union and marginalise our economy. Our country desperately needs our own immigration policy , and full access to European single markets. Never more so than so poignantly put by Alyn Smith in his ” famous plea” in the EU parliament , do we indeed need ” our friends in Europe”.
yesindyref2 says:
1 October, 2016 at 9:08 pm
I’ve definitely noticed a change of pace from Unionist posters.
The whole UKOK toryboy freak show would be a laughing stock in any other country but teamGB. Its maybe tory BBC led propaganda that prevents them becoming a laughing stock or being tarred and feathered, or maybe just enough Britnats like being governed by them. Its what God and JK Rowling have ordained.
eg.
Ruth Davidson tells Boris Johnson he’s peddling lies over EU referendum
If the nation votes Remain on Thursday it will be hard to avoid the conclusion that it was Ruth Davidson wot won it
link to independent.co.uk
Breeks says:
“my IPad tablet requires me to type the lot in every time.”
Setting > general > keyboard > text replacement
Set up short codes for your name and email. Type your short codes plus a space. Saves a lot of typing in an iPad 🙂
Also stops mistakes which mean you message is lost!
@galamcennalath says: 1 October, 2016 at 12:01 pm:
“Yes, England and Scotland are on different paths and get further apart almost daily. Those who don’t see this are, for their own reasons, deluding themselves.”
You are, of course, correct, galamcennalath. The thing is, though, that previously those same people were also deluding a majority of Scottish voters. Now, though, the deluded ones are only themselves and those who no longer believe the delusions are in the majority.
PS . as regards my previous post : ” friends” are people you usually dine with eg. during say a European summit the sessions usually encompass the leaders having discussions over breakfast, lunch and dinner. When can anyone recall any Westminster Prime Minister ” dining” with any of our ” First minister’s ??
Conservatives want to be sovereign and independent.
Praise the Lord they have seen the light.
But,but,but they do not mean Scotland silly they mean England!
Tam Jardine says:
“And so it begins: May to announce tomorrow a bill to repeal European Communities Act of 1972.”
Lots of Twitter chatter.
It sounds like the Tories again forgetting that England is not the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Compliance with EU law and having the European Court of Justice is crucial in Scotland and Northern Ireland and the acts covering their devolved administrations.
May may provoke a constitutional crisis earlier than expected!
Famous15 says:
“Conservatives want to be sovereign and independent … they mean England!”
Aye, England voted for its independence and the rest of us should respect that 🙂
Now, will they please just fck off, do their own thing, and let the rest of us get on with ours!
Whether Scotland elects to be or not, a member of the EU is up to Scotland. For now a majority of Scots is in favour of continued membership. As ever, our majority wishes are secondary to those of England. In this case indeed, secondary to an ill informed Xenophobic mob, which the elected government is scared to ask Parliament to bend to for fear of being told to get lost.
The crux of our case is not about the merits or demerits of EU membership. The argument is exactly the same as it was in 2014. Scotland only gets what it wants when England wants that too. Otherwise we get what England wants irrespective of what we want. Is Scotland a region of England, or is it a nation in its own right?
Whatever the merits of the EU, I believe Scotland is a nation, and that it is time Scots got what they wanted irrespective of whatever England wants.
Independence cannot ever be conditional on EU membership or not. It is our right to determine our own future, on our own terms. So do you believe we are a nation?
Westminster is about to unleash the anti Scottish attack dogs in the form of Ruth the mooth, then start turning the thumb screws slowly and deliberately. Then they are going to sow the seeds of discontent or rebellion among the eu countries. To ENGERLANDS benefit, nothing else matters.
Things are about to get very nasty and interesting. ENGERLAND will prevail, at ANY cost. Scotland will do as it’s told or else,
@Blair Paterson says: 1 October, 2016 at 12:20 pm:
“I do not understand why people who want independence for Scotland are happy to swap being ruled by one country England to being ruled by 27 other countries in the eu.”
Then I believe you really need to think things through again Blair. In the first place the European Union is nothing like the union that Scotland is in with England. The EU parliament does not rule over anyone.
The European Parliament is a consensus parliament and is democratic in nature. The United kingdom is regarded by the all the UK unionist parties in quite a different and basically undemocratic manner.
It was described as such in a government commissioned paper during the Scottish Independence Referendum and best described by the Secretary of State Against Scotland, David Mundell thus:-
“The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”,.
And that is exactly how Westminster treats Scotland. In the first place the union is legally between two only kingdoms, (as its title indicates).
Yet Westminster runs things with England treated as, and directly funded as, the Uniited Kingdom but with the Kingdom of Scotland being treated like one of the countries that the Kingdom of England brought into the union.
That is exactly what they did by unequally devolving powers from the legally bipartite United Kingdom to only three of the four UK countries and thus we ended up with England as the master race lording it over everyone else.
In other words the United Kingdom is an undemocratic sham.
Now let’s consider the EU, Blair.
Its parliament is composed of all countries, or states, in the union. They all have votes on every matter and the majority is taken as the way things go. Every country has a voice in the EU parliament with the exceptions of Scotland, Wales and N.I.
That though is NOT the fault of the EU but is the fault of that Parliament of England masquerading as the parliament of the United Kingdom as we just explained.
Now give a thought to the only example I can think of today that claims it makes itself totally independent.
That country is none other than North Korea that purports to be a communist democracy but is in fact a real dictatorship.
Here is what Wiki says of North Korea :-
You will note that in spite of its claims North Korea does have other countries it relies upon and interacts with but its isolationism from most of the rest of the World has made North Korea one of the poorest nations on Earth.
So according to Theresa May, the queen of the brexidiots in England, the United Kingdom (which is NOT a single country, but a union formed from several countries and territiories together) is to be made a sovereign and independent country. Again.
Aye, follow that distorted logic if you can.
We must remember, however, that according to Theresa May, and her extreme right wing accolytes, independence for Scotland (which actually IS a single country) is very, very bad.
@Blair Paterson says: 1 October, 2016 at 1:10 pm:
“I still say independence should mean just that nobody else has the power to tell you how to live you decide everything for your selfe It’s as simple as that”
Aye! Richt!
Try telling that to your wife or partner, Blair.
The normal human state, indeed the normal state of most living things, is to be sociable and gregarious. From dogs living in packs to lions in prides and even cattle in herds it is normal to be interdependent.
Humans have many tiers of interdependence from pairing up as couples for the propagation of the species to living in hamlets, villages, towns and cities for the common good. To countries for defence and organisations like the UN, NATO and The WTO.
That is the thing – the so called United Kingdom that is no longer a United Kingdom but is effectively now the Country of England, or even more basic, the Metropolis of London, running things with everyone else subservient to London,(but then the Kingdom of England has been a Constitutional Monarchy sine 1688).
In effect the Queen legally owns everything including her subjects. It is, after all, Her Majesty’s Government.
yesindyref2 at 908pm
I agree, there really has been a change in unionist posters, and it suggests elements of desperation, more than anything else. With each passing day of brexit lunacy, the case for Scotland even considering staying in the voluntary union with England becomes ever weaker. Even the most rabid unionists can now see this.
You could say that even unionists are now realising the game’s a bogey. I think their desperation will only increase over coming months. We should just let them scream and shout and abuse people, as the more they do, the easier it is for us to win.
Link to Alyn Smith’s consultation for anyone interested:
link to alynsmith.eu
Big cheese toryboy says UK too small, poor, stupid, shock. Keeping Scotland big made him stacks of UKOK cash though, for the balance.
Blair McDougall Retweeted Tim Shipman
Nationalism. I’ll never understand people who think you make your country great by making it smaller.Blair McDougall added,
Tim Shipman @ShippersUnbound
May: “This marks the first stage in the UK becoming a sovereign and independent country once again.”
16 retweets 28 likes
@Paula Rose
Funny, when you say Rothesay, I hear Seaweed
Must be ma ears
FT says read this. Scotland completely and utterly blanked out. Welcome to teamGEnglandB proud Scotbuts.
link to jrf.org.uk
@galamcennalath
“And so it begins: May to announce tomorrow a bill to repeal European Communities Act of 1972.”
Gulp.
That IS Pandora’s Box.
link to legislation.gov.uk
(SCHEDULE 5 Reserved matters)
“Foreign affairs etc.
7(1)International relations, including relations with territories outside the United Kingdom, the European Union(and their institutions) and other international organisations, regulation of international trade, and international development assistance and co-operation are reserved matters.
(2) Sub-paragraph (1) does not reserve—
(a) observing and implementing international obligations, obligations under the Human Rights Convention and obligations under EU law”
“does not reserve … obligations under EU law”
Can’t come up with examples, but there is Scottish EU Legislation under the control of the Scottish Government. Fine, they can stand, but there is no past, present or future limitation in that, it simply says “obligations under EU law”.
It’s beyond me.
Seems to me though that it’s at least a partial Brexit WITHOUT invoking Article 50, and without any negotiation at all. Clearly it’ll take time for the Bill to go through though, become an Act and get Royal Assent. And the date of effectiveness wouldn’t be instant even then.
Cobblers last, I need a cup of tea!
Not to be outdone, rancid The Graun also blank’s out its Scotland region, Joe Rowntree style.
link to archive.is
I’d say are you listening proud Scotbuts, but lets face it, they love a good too small, poor, stoopid cringe. Only in Scotland, world famous cringers.
Splaaat
Hooray
One more from rancid Graun luck or, whatever happened to the great rebel red tory Ian Murray, Lab Scottish Secretary in waiting, forever.
link to archive.is
Jeremy Corbyn
The Observer
Jeremy Corbyn insists aliens must stay in frontbench jobs
Leader’s tough position underlines weakness of rebels following re-election as he believes he will have full shadow cabinet by start of parliament”
Changed letter or two, as it may aswell be for oor Ian.
link to caltonjock.com
@heedtracker says: 1 October, 2016 at 11:32 pm:
“Blair McDougall Retweeted Tim Shipman
Nationalism. I’ll never understand people who think you make your country great by making it smaller.”
Which only confirms what most of the Scottish electorate already knew.
Blair McDougall is a total idiot. First up it seems his English Language comprehension is not even on a par with that of my wee Papillon bitch. She knows quite a lot of English and even more Lallans Scots words.
McDougall though is, (allegedly), a human being who is, (also allegedly), well educated. Allow me to explain a thing or two to the congenital idiot.
The title of the resultant organ that was formed by the Treaty of Union in 1706/7 was, without doubt, legally, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland”.
It most certainly was not The United Country of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.
Furthermore the title, “Great Britain”, applies only to the geographic largest island of the British Archipelago. There are no other connotations of greatness than the size of the largest island.
There is also the simple fact that the term, “Britain”, refers only to that same, “British”, archipelago and does NOT signify either, “Great Britain”, the island, nor, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland” – no matter how much the idiot McDougall wishes it were otherwise.
The result of the Treaty was to form a joint, “KINGDOM”, of the only two kingdoms extant in the year 1706. Those two kingdoms were the three country Kingdom of England, that annexed the Principality of Wales by the Statute of Rhuddlan in 1284 and annexed the Kingdom of Ireland by the Irish Parliamentary Act, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, in 1542.
Thus the Treaty of Union was, and still is, a bipartite union of Kingdoms and it is not a country and it never will be. Only idiots like Blair McDougall seem to imagine otherwise.
Furthermore the so called Treaty of Union with Ireland in 1800/1 could not make any other legal difference to the United Kingdom than to change the name. This is because Northern Ireland had already been part of the Kingdom of England from 1542 until 1706/7 and thus was part of the United Kingdom from then until the partition of Ireland.
The plain fact is that Blair McDougall is delusional or he imagines we are if we were to believe his idiocy.
The best way to deal with McDougall is to ignore him, it won’t make him go away nor will it shut him up, but you will feel much better for doing so.
Sae noo Ah’m awa til ma lair fir Ah’m fair wabbit an forfochen.
Owersettin intil the inglis, “So now I’m off to my bed as I’m quite exhausted and played out”.
From Herald: “Also speaking at the conference [Radical Independence Conference], Scottish Green co-convener Patrick Harvie said Brexit had made a second referendum “dramatically more likely…in the near future”.
Ah, what was that about the Greens not being behind Independence?
Blair Paterson says:
1 October, 2016 at 4:55 pm
I can assure you I am no troll I am 77years old and I have worked all my life for Scottish independence people who know me get fed up with me going on and on about all the time but I will still go on as long as I live untill we achieve it,but all your replies will not change my view of what independence should be look at a dictionary and see what the word means I did not write my first blog to upset or offend anyone I was was only stating what I honestly believe
———–
It’s a reasonable opinion to want total independence for Scotland, as much as that applies in the modern world.
The problem is that independence supporters who voted for a Brexit didn’t think it through. I figured Jim Sillars and others who supported it would have had more sense.
The easiest way to achieve that aim would have been to leave the UK and *then* propose leaving the EU. But the UK leaving the EU first makes Scottish independence far more difficult. Because England is our biggest trading partner and can now threaten tariffs against an independent Scotland. If we were all in the EU that couldn’t happen.
If Theresa May is announcing the ‘Great Repeal Act’ tomorrow the one of Nana’s links from the other day is relevant and worth reading in the terms of Article 50 and its constitutional position.
From Nana:
“”Not read this, posting as it may be of interest
Professor Sionaidh Douglas-Scott has written a briefing on the Article50 lawsuit for the Brexit Committee
link to parliament.scot“”
The English press are all over the Great British Repeal Act as you would expect… it does seem to me to be very significant in that Theresa May is finally about to commit after months of dithering.
Tumbleweed rolling through the Scottish MSM- move on: nothing to see here *whistles avoiding eye contact*. Do they think we won’t notice?
The Herald is going with TM hints she could block indyref 2. The Scotsman has an article down there but Ruth Davidson gets top billing looking bonny and smiley and fighting for Scotland’s interest.
Nothing on the Daily Record site either (or if it was there it was buried guy deep)
BBC Scotland News website blanks it entirely and the Scottish Sunday Express is too busy reporting on yet another “setback” for the First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon (or Sturgeon as they rather coarsely insist).
One wonders if any single person in history has had so many “setbacks” documented. Probably one in ten “setbacks” in the world is suffered by Nicola Sturgeon. She has had so many “slapdowns”, “humiliations” and been “snubbed” so often according to the Express it is a wonder she is able to carry on.
Anyway- lets see if they even cover it up here when article 50 is finally invoked.
An advance peek at Theresa Mays speech to the Tory conference: link to wp.me
Theresa May has been keeping all her Brexit cards close to her chest, but at her parties conference starting later today, she will show us one or two. They will be clubs. To beat the EU and Scotland with.
The Prime Minister is not going to be nice during the next few days. Instead, she will be assertive, with a sharp point ; and slightly hostile, with all those in both the UK & the EU, whom she knows to be on the other side of the biggest poker game in town.
So, if you get a chance to listen/watch, pay special attention to her references to Scotland/SNP and the EU. When she reveals even a part of her hand, we won’t want to miss it.
BTW, don’t go worrying about the Ryder Cup. With the score going into tomorrow USA 9½ Europe 6½, only a miracle can stop a USA victory. I blame it on the Yanks.
Ah! That Great Repeal Bill to be introduced in the Queen’s speech in spring, not to come into force until Brexit itself. Weell, that is totally logical, and doesn’t to my mind, trigger Article 50 at all, nor yet, a constitutional crisis.
Back to sleep
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
A speech to the Tory party conference: link to wp.me
Bored can’t sleep watching BBC Question Time on the iPlayer what struck me was the only thing missing was a section set aside for the KKK pointy hats and burning crosses, it’s a bloody weird part of the country down there thank Christ it’s far away from us .
The BBC website updates about one in the morning that’s when the usual SNP are shit story appears, and the latest one that takes top billing is 200000 sick days taken by police officers over the last Three years well ,my on the back of a fag packet calculation works out at Four days per officer per year OH f/ck me let’s hope they don’t all fall sick on the one day , Quick hide under the bloody bed until the Tory. Labour. Wee Willie party sorts this National Crisis out thank goodness we have these people waiting to take over from this incompetent administration. zzzzzzzzzz nite.
First of all I don’t mind having to re type my details everytime I make a post. It’s like a buffer that allows me to stop and say “do I really wanna say that”.
Anyhoooooo!!!! Twitter – I only joined Twitter after the EU ref to try and gain some knowledge of what was happening.
I am interested to hear someone say the “yoons” recent twitterings have been very aggressive and agitated. I has just assumed they had always been that way. I suggest not engaging them – it’s counter productive.
Alex massie made the point that during indyref we spoke between ourselves in yes and did really listen to the real concerns of undecided voters. I think I was guilty of that as the day of the ref I was sure we would have won. My Facebook was full of people claiming yes votes. But it didn’t happen. I guess am trying to say the “yoons” are now falling into that same trap we did. The famous art of war book does say when your enemy is making a mistake do not stop them.
I think genuine undecided voters will see the hate and bile now being spurted by “yoons” and it will move them to yes or at least move them to explore sites like this so I suggest we be on our best behaviour and don’t feed the trolls who appear on here (am not naming anyone a troll) and we don’t get into tit for tat spats with “yoons” over petite garbage like the recent 3 MP’s who the police have spoken too. Just arguing with “yoons” is pointless. I’ve came to realise that.
Robert Peffers – What a champion.
I’m curious…
This Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty is the negotiated path out of the EU, so let us put that at the centre of the see-saw.
It isn’t however the only path out of the EU, there are other options which are less cordial. The EU could for example just arbitrarily boot the UK out, for flagrant violation of EU law by negotiating Trade deals when they are expressly verboten.
But at the other end of the see-saw, there is the UK’s capacity to do likewise, to exit the EU unilaterally in a similar arbitrary manner, and without the appropriate negotiation or amicable settlement. They simply vacate their membership by deed rather than agreement, and simply leave the table, … or perhaps even merely be “deemed” to have left the table.
I am kinda curious whether this GB Repeal Act will see the UK restored to its pre-joining condition, and place the U.K. outside the EU with immediate effect and irrespective of Article 50. Isn’t it in very real effect the UK’s own UDI from Europe???
Is it credible the Westminster government could be so shortsighted and poorly briefed? They do know that, right?
Can we just clear away the furniture and kids toys so that if we do have to lunge at our own emergency UDI break-glass unit, so that there aren’t any obstructions in the way we might trip over, and let us all be well rehearsed about the emergency exit drill, where everybody walks calmly but briskly out of the danger area to a pre-arranged assembly point which is safely inside Europe?
… just to add.
It is my firm conviction that any holding pen status extended by Europe will have Scotland’s status as a sovereign nation as a necessary precondition. However reluctant the parties might be to observe that status and wish it wasn’t so, I fear there simply isn’t any lesser option. Scotland has to be sovereign and recognised as sovereign, or the EU is not legally negotiating with Scotland, but putting itself at risk of sanction for interfering illegally with the internal affairs of planet UK.
If we are not technically independent when the Brexit clock strikes midnight, then out we we tumble as a single UK entity. Independence, or at the very threadbare least, a pro independence majority in a referendum is possibly enough, because full independence is assured to follow on, but only sovereign independence makes it actually safe.
Kevin Evans: “Alex Massie made the point that during indyref we spoke between ourselves in yes and did really listen to the real concerns of undecided voters.”
That is so far from the truth as to question where Massie was on vacation. It wasn’t Scotland. First thing you do is seek out like-minded, then begins the task of persuading others. It was a near impossible job given the wall of propaganda in front of us daily. ‘No’ voters had only to stay at home until voting day. I suspect many did. They were not in the street feverishly asking to be converted.
Re. today’s Scottish polis SNP Baaaad story . . . the Beeb (naturally) forget to mention that the problem is worse in England.
link to mirror.co.uk
I posted a load yesterday afternoon on the previous thread at 2.06 which might have been missed.
Here’s two more, all I can manage right now. Chest infection got me beat.
link to autonomyscotland.org
link to itisintruthnotforglory.wordpress.com
@Smallaxe Missed you yesterday, hope you are doing ok.
@ breeks.
The danger for Scotland lies in being reactive rather than proactive. Impossible at this stage to anticipate just exactly what route the UK gov will take, but there are alternatives.
Did May not say that, Scotland remaining in the union was more important than the EU, or words to that affect. We have little difficulty in understanding why, and we should be aware that if they arbitrarily withdraw from the EU, then Scotland will also be outside the EU.
The SG has already started the process of producing a new Bill for a second indi/ref, but perhaps should also start dialogue on creating a Bill for Dissolving the Union between Scotland and England should May dissolve the EU treaty.
Tavish Scott(cryptoTory),Murdo Frazer(Tory)Kelly(pretendy Labour) etc etc view any attempt by the Scottish government to protect our rughts or living conditions as hilarious.
They think we are forgetting our place as second class citizens. They think the back of the bus and silence is our best position.
Can any psychologist explain this self harmong?
The Police are putting innocent people in cells and traumatising people. The charges can never be brought to court. The cells are full of innocent people, so there is no room for the criminals. 50% of charges never come to court. The Police should get more training in Scots Law and additional needs training. Before the Police investigated then arrested. Giving a rebuke or a warning. Now the Police arrest people and put them in cells on ‘charges’ which can never go to court or are admonished. Trying to criminalise the whole population? A total waste of time and money. Is it to put the arrest rate up? The Police could get a weekend off.
The Police resources should not be spent regulating Orange Marches. They should be banned from the public highway. The Orange Lodge is a unequal, discrimination organisation and should not be supported with public money.
Councils are not spending allocated money on drink/drugs one chance ‘total abstinence’ counselling rehab or nursery/education, social care and additional needs training. There is no temporary accommodation for homelessness. More people end up in prison which is more expensive. Rehab/counselling facilities are less expensive and cost effective.
The councils cut funding on essential services and build grotesques, unmandated monstrosities. Wasting £Millions/Billions of public money. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. It is drink/drug abuse that can result in long term sick and homelessness. The Tories make people sick. People are sick of the sight of them. Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. Westminster Unionist criminals get away with murder. The UK is the most unequal place in the world.
Theresa May on Marr. We will do this, we will do that. Not good for the blood pressure.
An unelected PM with no mandate from the country. Feels like a Dictatorship!!
The Great Repeal, just a pile of self evident diversionary bollox.
May on Marr just now – Article 50 will be triggered by end of March, 2017
At least we have the timescale now.
‘Article 50 triggered by end of March next year’. T. May on Marr show
Huge if true. 😉
The people in Scotland want less control from Westminster. The Tories are liars. The EU Ref is just a fudge for Tories multimillionaires to plunder public money and ruin the world economy. Enough is never enough. Brexit is just a cover. The UK Is the most unequal place in the world. May is just a liar. What a disgrace.
For Blair Paterson
I think everyone has given lots of helpful advice about EU.
You will have to make a decision between the two Unions. The EU, as an independent nation, taking a full role as trading partner, or shackled to a dying, xenophobic global laughing stock, ruled by blood sucking Tories, for the foreseeable.
The UK was NEVER ruled from Brussels, so don’t fall for the Farage bullshit. Plenty reading out there as to how Scotland benefits.
We are a small country that would flounder for years whilst setting up trade deals, and political networks. Don’t do that.
March next year.
Another six months of this ‘phoney war’.
Why the delay? Probably to figure out how they are going to negotiate. That was ‘how’ not what. The UK Civil Service has few negotiators. They will need to buy in professional negotiators at great expense to the rest of us.
So when will we actually know what sort of Brexit they plan? What May et al want is probably irrelevant! I suspect WM will initially approach the EU with completely unreasonable demands. It could be well over a year from now before we get an idea what the EU will actually agree to.
That is unless WM go for a simple ‘cut all strings’ approach!
Doing so would certainly shorten the timescale and focus Scottish minds!
Nicola on Twitter…
“Nicola Sturgeon ?@NicolaSturgeon
Depressing conclusion from #marr is that UKG decisions are being driven by ideology of the hard Brexiteers, rather than interests of country”
… the harder the plan, the faster it will be done!
yesindyref2@12.41am
Did you not see Derek Bateman,s wee piece about how annoyed he is with folk giving their vote to the Greens?
“Despite my cynicism expressed forcefully before May about spreading votes around, even I am dismayed”
He gave them a right good telling off!
Having trouble commenting this morning.i get error or spam. First time that’s happened to me.
My previous post should have read that D Bateman was angry with the Greens not voters.
Expect EBC’s Brewer to attempt to try and balance Kezia’s car crash last week for trying to make him more stupid than he is. Independence will be boiled in oil and stuffed down the television channel curticy of EBC Pacific Quay.
It’s taken me a while but I think I’ve got the gist of it all now
The Tories will tell the rest of the world what’s happening and the rest of the world will say OK then
Phew!! Glad that’s all cleared up at last
@Breeks says: 2 October, 2016 at 7:58 am:
” … It isn’t however the only path out of the EU, there are other options which are less cordial. The EU could for example just arbitrarily boot the UK out, for flagrant violation of EU law by negotiating Trade deals when they are expressly verboten.”
Fortunately, Breeks, you are wrong about that.
The EU has no rules, laws or other mechanisms to boot out any member state and has no way to exclude any EU citizen from their EU citizenship. It is a basic tenet of the EU that the only way out of the EU is by the express request of the member state to leave the union. That is the whole point of Article 50. If a member state does NOT initiate Article 50 then they are still legally member states. Anyway the same applies to individual EU citizen.
Furthermore, if a state does so without the clearly expressed wish of a majority of the electorate, (who, remember, are all EU citizens), there would have to be EU protection provided for their citizens in that rogue state.
Remember too that in the event of an EU citizen from any member state getting into difficulties in a foreign country they can apply for aid from any EU member state’s Embassy.
” … But at the other end of the see-saw, there is the UK’s capacity to do likewise, to exit the EU unilaterally in a similar arbitrary manner, and without the appropriate negotiation or amicable settlement. They simply vacate their membership by deed rather than agreement, and simply leave the table, … or perhaps even merely be “deemed” to have left the table.”
Again that does not take away the EU citizenship of EU citizens in the rogue state.
” … if we do have to lunge at our own emergency UDI break-glass unit, so that there aren’t any obstructions in the way we might trip over, and let us all be well rehearsed about the emergency exit drill, where everybody walks calmly but briskly out of the danger area to a pre-arranged assembly point which is safely inside Europe?”
That, though, is the whole point of the EU NOT having any way to exclude a EU citizen if that citizen does NOT want to be an ex-EU citizen. Laughably the EU parliament have had this situation covered since day one of the EU.
BTW: I repeatedly pointed out during the indyref campaign that the UK government would be unable to force existing Scottish EU citizens out of the EU unless the individual joint EU/UK citizen wanted to leave.
I did this mainly when that numptie Barroso was being misquoted by the Westminster establishment and MSM.
Why are ‘former Conservative MPs’ given such elevated status?
They represent no-one but themselves, dragging arguments to safe, lazy or distracting conclusions.
Moral corruption folks.
The (mostly or wannabe ageing) grey Conservative vote need only remain ignorant to be conservative.
Sentimentality sells to those who are receptive to certain signals. It’s a science, marketing.
The BBC has its’ head in the sand. Values? That it assists it’s political establishment’s resistance to change, is embarrassing internationally.
The UK is frighteningly ignorant, with the conservative minds being numbed the most.
..’these young ones today couldn’t run a bath’.. is the BBC/MSM line/lie..’..look at these disastrous budget figures, while we show you pictures of fantastic Doric and neo-classical architecture..and animated silhouettes of families of four..’..
Change will come. Demonising the future itself, is pre-enlightenment, pre-hope.
The future isn’t a dead end. The past is. Somehow, some people, place hope in the past hoping for the good old days to return.
Remembrance time coming up soon. Busy time for the BEEB, hegemonic pressure to be liberally applied.
Representatives of the governments that SPREAD WAR…will talk about how bravery helped create the ‘peace’ we now share.
Who the hell put these guys in charge?
You’re having a laugh, surely.
More from Derek Bateman.
Can’t help but wonder though at those thousands of nationalists lured into handing their second vote to the Greens because they were told they were blood brothers and soul sisters when it appears they may be more like false friends.
Yet it won’t be long before Greens are again asking for votes under STV in the council elections and to be fair, I normally deliver for them a second preference. I don’t close my mind to doing that again but I’ll be weighing it more carefully than usual after this week.
SNP/SNP all the way May 2017
Please
Agree Ken. Just vote SNP and no other preferences.
Wow! Davidson telling us the access to single market is not a binary choice.
Not according to anyone that matters, Ruth.
I sincerely hope anyone who has an interest in living in a thriving country is paying attention over the coming months. We will sit and watch as we are drip fed what rights are being stripped away.
Anyone that is deluded enough to believe the Tories will retain anything like our EU rights, in the Great Reveal – that being the post apocalyptic landscape – are hugely gaga.
BBC London Politics show really pushing Sadiq Khan hard as Corbyn slayer this morn. Its not only BBC Vote SLab Scotland. Its a pretty convincing attempt from these liggers too.
England, with all its EBC media, is a foreign country which holds power over Scotland whilst ignoring it at the same time. Truly, britnats in Scotland are at best simple-minded eejits, at worse ("Tractor" - Ed)s to Scotland.
Yep. Great piece from Derek Bateman. I spread it far and wide. Three times now the “radical” Greens have voted with the Tories and the red tories, inflicting defeats on the SNP in Holyrood on two occasions. They are becoming Anas Sarwar’s best pals. And on issues of less than driving importance so they are, as usual, overplaying their hand to try to look as though they have some huge influence. Have a look at ex SNP MSP John Wilson’s results at the recent Coatbridge by election where he got enough votes to just about fill a bag of chips.
Real friends abstain on issues in which they do not find themselves in complete agreement.
Didn’t have to look far in today’s Sunday Herald for ASS (not ASSS this time – not “a SENIOR SNP source”, just “an SNP source”) in Tom Gordon’s wittering piece.
Rule of thumb – unnamed source – source doesn’t exist. Tom Gordon lives in a past political reality in which any old shite written in support of Labour was swallowed by a gullible audience – or so they believed.
Despite dodgy and inconsistent political coverage and a history of supporting RISE style divisionists SH still by far the best Sunday newspaper in Scotland. Needs Derek Bateman in charge
Katy Grant on Sunday politics. An old biddy with very strange ideas of democracy and logic. Absolutely hates the Scots
Given Maggie May’s announcement about triggering article 50 by the end of March and her stance that Scotland is getting no special treatment, it looks like May’s thinking is, ‘Scotland does not have the balls to vote for Independence’.
Let’s hope we prove her wrong.
@Breeks says: 2 October, 2016 at 8:31 am:
” … It is my firm conviction that any holding pen status extended by Europe will have Scotland’s status as a sovereign nation as a necessary precondition.”
Which, Breeks, is just exactly what I have been trying to get across since long before the present upsurge in Scottish independence support began.
After the foul smelly stuff hits the proverbial ventilation equipment the realization of basic truth will be forced to be faced by both the Westminster Establishment and the European Parliament.
Those facts are actually very, very plain, simple and very, very stark.
The actual legal meaning of the title, THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN & NORTHERN IRELAND”, will at long last have to be faced. The United Kingdom has always legally been a formal agreement by the signatories to unite the only two kingdoms extant in 1706/7.
That is two kingdoms and thus the resultant amalgam is a United Kingdom but that bipartite kingdom has always contained four separate countries and the documentary evidence remains available for inspection. It is the Statute of Rhuddlan, 1284, by which the Kingdom, (not the country), of England annexed, (not united with), the Principality of Wales. This was under the then laws of both those sovereign monarchies. The Divine right of Kings was only changed in that Kingdom of England in 1688 by the English, “Glorious Revolution”.
The Kingdom of Ireland was also annexed by the Kingdom of England by the forced Irish parliamentary, “Crown of Ireland Act”, of 1584, and at that time both of those kingdoms were still also under the law of, “Divine Right of Kings”. So point one is that the United Kingdom is exactly that. It has never been a single country – only becoming a two partner United Kingdom.
The truth will dawn that both the EU and the UK have erred in treating the United Kingdom as a country that it has never legally been and the hard truth, (for both), will have to be faced.
The primary reason the Treaty of Union could not legally be applied UK wide was because there were fundamental issues of legal system differences between the two kingdoms. The main one being that while both kingdoms were equally sovereign kingdoms in the three country Kingdom of England the sovereignty had been retained by the reigning monarch but the monarchy forced to delegate their, “Divine Right”, (sovereignty), to the parliament of England making that kingdom a Constitutional Monarchy.
However, the law of Scotland had been fundamentally changed forever in 1320 by the declaration of Arbroath. Under which the people of Scotland, and thus neither the crown or the parliament, are legally sovereign.
Thus there can be no legal doubt that the People of Scotland, (not just the Scots born), are legally sovereign. Thus there is no legal case for Westminster to over rule the sovereign people’s expressed will.
Simply put there is no case that Westminster can claim legal sovereignty over the people of Scotland. MPs from the three country Kingdom of England are legally delegates of the crown but chosen by a ballot of the people. In Scotland the Members of the Westminster Parliament from Scotland are not only legally chosen by a ballot of the people but are delegated as representatives of the people of Scotland and NOT the crown of Scotland.
Thing is there is absolutely no legal evidence to support the Westminster Establishment’s take on the matter. Not even custom and use for there have been several Scottish Claims of right.
Laughably it is the laws of the Kingdom of England that is the final nail in their legal argument’s coffin. Under English law, (and I paraphrase0, “a sovereign, just by being sovereign, cannot legally renounce the kingdom’s sovereignty”. They can, though, abdicate their sovereignty which means it instantly passes to the next in line to the crown. Thus, under English law the people of Scotland are not legally able to give up their sovereignty. It is actually against the law of England for Scots to renounce their sovereignty and the monarch of Scotland’s job is to legally protect the people’s sovereignty.
Not to mention that, under Scots law, the sovereign people can sack the monarch who does not protect their sovereign rights and in the Kingdom of England the monarch has delegated their sovereignty to the Parliament.
How ironic is that?
The fact ha they are bleating, wittering on and almost screaming that we shouldn’t have second referendum tells me we should – and as soon as possible.
More from Derek Bateman.
Can’t help but wonder though at those thousands of nationalists lured into handing their second vote to the Greens because they were told they were blood brothers and soul sisters when it appears they may be more like false friends.”
Big test of Green Holyrood political gamesmanship heading their way, as Dr NO! points out just there,
Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 13m13 minutes ago
The SNP claim there is a majority in Holyrood against the “Great Repeal Bill”. Really?
@Dave McEwan Hill – Really like the idea of Derek Bateman at the S/Herald; not the same paper since the passing of Ian Bell.
As Teresa May and her apprentice keep reminding us: Scotland will be fully engaged in Brexit, aye with a gaff in our mouth and a priest hovering over our head. Now that’s close engagement, thanks Terry & Ruth.
God bless.
Dan Huil says:
” Truly, britnats in Scotland are at best simple-minded eejits”
I can’t get my head round their mindset either.
It’s as if there really is a ‘Britain’ for them to be nationalistic about. It’s a myth – there is no clearer evidence than there may be North British, but there never were South British. There never was a South Britain to counter their North Britain. They should ask themselves why their ‘Britain’ is a concept held only by some Scots.
Unionism as a partnership is just as mythical. Unionists are a Scottish (and NI) phenomenon. The inhabitants of England simply do not consider they are in a partnership with Scotland. Truth is, from politicians to voters, they don’t think about Scotland much at all!
For most down south UK/Britain/England are interchangeable and when they do differentiate it still comes across as woolly!
Why don’t BritNat Scots see the reality of Scotland’s situation? Some are genuine wannabe English, their choice. However, the proud-Scot-but ones … they are a real mystery!
Tory in Westminster 25% of vote. Not elected in Scotland. SNP at Holyrood 50% of the vote. Held back by 2nd rate rejects for whom the majority did not vote. PR Westminster would have brought total SNP representation in Holyrood. In Scotland the losers win. The Tories are mucking up the UK/world economy.
I’ve never thought of the Green party as a ‘political’ in the full sense of the word, a pressure group, yes, and a necessary one, never a political party equipped to handle foreign policy, wars, poverty, and the like.
1)So the Rev was almost spot on with his Article50 prediction.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
They don’t want to go into the 2017 local elections without having already pushed the two-year button.
2)I have to say I first thought that the idea of absorbing all the EU law currently affecting us into UK law and unpicking it at your leisure was a clever bit of legal politics.
But it surely can’t be that straightforward with three devolved parliaments to be considered.
After all they can’t possibly be able to impose that on what they keep telling us is “the most powerful devolved parliament in the world”
Well a straight forward Green question that is never asked or proffered, what exactly is Green Brexit?
link to twitter.com
Trump, Trump, Trump, SNP bad for not “repealing” private schools. When leader of any party doesn’t mention the biggest issue facing the whole European, even a world wide one, there’s maybe something going on, or nothing at all.
No idea what “repealing” private schools means or if its a Green issue but Harvie’s twitter photo’s a blurry view of Shawlands, from west side of Queens Park, in case no one was wondering.
The Greens are lying hypocrites who renege on their own ‘policies’. They collude with Unionists at every opportunity. Reneging on their own ‘policies’ for remuneration and office. The collude with landowners, and are funded by them, to prevent land coming into public use for essential projects.. They waste public money at every opportunity then complain their is not enough for essential services. Causing £Million/Billions of delays and Inquiries.
They colluded with Unionists to build grotesque projects and prevent pedestrianisation of city centres. Wasting £Millions/Billion on grotesque, monstrosity in City centres, creating a concrete jungle, causing traffic chaos and no pedestrianisation. All for higher remuneration and office. Putting cities into massive debt. Against majority wishes and the public interest. They are not fit for public office. A disgrace.
I have to say that end of March is later than I expected. Easter is early this year late March and I think the recess dates are 1st April to 16th April. So it looks like they are going to lob the hand grenade between Easter and recess and disappear on holiday.
However, it I did feel a flutter of “Indy2 is on” excitement when I heard this morning.
Sept 2018 maybe?
Macart wrote
“‘Article 50 triggered by end of March next year’. T. May on Marr show. Huge if true.”
Indeed!
Now would be a very good time for someone to open up a book on the forthcoming delaying excuses. Put my money on May being ousted or some “national emergency” such as a war or royal death.
Either way i’m not waiting on the starter pistol, i’ll continue to plug away getting the truth out now and drawing people’s attentions to sites such as WOS, GAP & The Doc etc.
Time will tell!
Lets be clear about our democracy.
The referendum was prurely advisory and has no legal standing.
The Tory UK Government intend to invite the Queen to use her royal prerogative to enact into law us leaving the EU.
Her decision alone, not our elected MP’s, not or elected MSP’s, without your or my vote.
Her legal power to dictate over her subjects.
Setting aside The Act of Union and other legal challenges.
There may be a royal elephant in the throne room. Will she make a decision that may lose her Scotland and force the breakup of her United Kingdoms.
I believe there is preceded of a monarch refusing the royal prerogative.
I’m not trying to be rotten and mean here but the Greens as has been said already aren’t a political party, they’re a pressure group movement and many of us including me got shouted at for warning folk not to use their votes to elect them, now look where we are
It would appear the Greens are more interested in winning something, anything, and scoring a point and having themselves a wee backslap amongst themselves for their trouble
Kermit’s green for God’s sake it doesn’t make him a politician (OK Flippant) but still, big picture here
If people want to win Independence for Scotland I’m afraid this is the wrong way of going about it
Now those Green folk can shout at me again, but they’ll still be wrong, coz I’ve just been proven right along with all the other Baad Anti Green folk
I get the impression Westminster brexiteers think the EU will go easy on them concerning the single market, or alternative thereof. But if the EU was to do that then it would encourage other members to go for a similar “exit”. The EU can’t risk that; it must play hardball to protect the EU.
We must be getting close to the January 2017 date now the establishment are pushing the Article 50 date back to March 2017.
If the estabishment cannot work out what you want from Brexit in the 9 months since the Brexit vote, how will they manage to complete the Brexit agreement with 27 EU nations within 2 years?
May has a lot of work to do to come up with a Brexit scenario which will prevent IndyRef2!
“Today the SNP is publishing 100 Brexit questions 100 days on – it is by no means an exhaustive list, but is shows the sheer scale of uncertainty facing Scotland”
Question 100 is a cracker …
“100. In a joint statement of 5 August 2014 David Cameron and the Scottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson – along with Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg then Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont, the LibDems’ Willie Rennie, signed a pledge saying: “Power lies with the Scottish people and we believe it is for the Scottish people to decide how Scotland is governed.” How will the Conservatives keep this pledge on which they won a No vote if Scotland is pulled out of the EU against its will?”
link to snp.org
Either way i’m not waiting on the starter pistol, i’ll continue to plug away getting the truth out now and drawing people’s attentions to sites such as WOS, GAP & The Doc etc.
Very stuttery Marr asked and very stuttery May, who gave the date for the kick off but then she said “its up to the EU members what the process of negotiation is I hope that…”
@Flower of Scotland
I voted SNP + SNP, but I see things very differently with the Greens. One of the early problems with Indy Ref 1 was that the media tried to associate it toally with the SNP. Their calculation was clearly that since the SNP had 44% of the vote, or whatever, tie it to the SNP and it would be a NO.
Partick Harvie before the Holyrood Election made it clear he wanted to steer a different path behind supporting Indy, putting Green ideas which are more left than the SNP would like to go, before the electorate. That can appeal to a swathe of voters for Indy Ref 2, leaving the SNP clear to appeal to a more centre, and even a bit right of centre electorate. That takes us over the 50% in itself.
Meanwhile I think he and the Greens are making it very clear they are not the SNP’s lapdogs, by voting against them. On tax I think fair enough, their views are different. The recent vote I though was stupid, as the Greens are supposed to be local democracy and citizen democracy. But all the same, it certainly demonstrates they plough a different furrow from the SNP.
But shortly after they made it very clear they support Indy, and indeed, I’ve seen one or two activists around doing their Indy support bit.
Personally, I approve of their approach, it helps Indy and as far as I’m concerned, party politics are very much secondary to Indy.
@galamcennalath 2:12pm
Page bookmarked for future use. Thanks.
On the Royal prerogative issue it’s an illusion. Any monarch that thought to freely use would soon have the power removed.
Isn’t Maggie May’s “Great Repeal Bill” nothing more than a political fudge? Aye – we’re out the EU but still have all their laws (which we can unpick at our leisure if we so desire). So, we’re legally out but technically still ‘compliant’. In which case Maggie May will arguing that, as Britain upon exit of the EU, will still be compliant with the laws of the EU, we should be allowed a trade deal with the EU. That’s the game.
That’ll be the crunch – access to the Single Market and on what terms. I don’t think the EU negotiators will fall for it. They simply MUST show unity of purpose and demonstrate to member states that leaving the EU isn’t about having your cake after you leave.
@yesindyref2
@Flower of Scotland
An important position/approach/slogan even in IndyRef2 should be along the lines of … “You don’t need to support the SNP to support Independence”
It will be important to decouple the wider constitutional question from party politics. Obviously the SNP will have a major part to play, but so should as many others as possible. Some party orientated, some non party affiliated.
The media and BT2 will try to focus on the SNP and leading personalities. YES2 need to have a wide approach. The Greens have a big part to play with this. Also, ideally there should be significant Labour for Indy and LibDem for Indy. And on the non party affiliated side, Women, Business, Trade Unions etc for Indy.
The more visions there are for Indy, the wider the appeal. And it gets the notion more widely accepted that is it all beyond and above the SNP and about making our own choices, whatever they might be.
Yes Mr Peffers, I am hearing you loud and clear. I find your comments profoundly interesting, and thinking through some of the ramifications is a white knuckle ride sometimes, because you have to think the unthinkable.
I have an issue on this very subject. I’ve written it before, but it went astray, so I apologise if I am repeating myself.
To cut right to the chase, let me call Scotlands popular sovereignty “red” sovereignty; red because its in the blood of the people, and likewise, let me call England’s divine sovereignty white to reflect divine purity. One comes from the bottom up, the other top down, but both are “absolutes”.
I am troubled that many nationalists believe Holyrood to possess some kind of pink sovereignty, as some kind of half way house, as an amalgamation of the two sovereignties, one red, one pink. I am troubled because I don’t think that’s quite correct.
Once the penny drops and you understand the nature of sovereignty as something absolute, it is something that cannot be mixed. It can only be shared.
Now the awkward bit for me, is that when our MP’s and MSP’s swear fealty to HM the Queen before taking their seats in parliament, this is an act which completely foresakes the absolute essence of Scottish sovereignty. Because it does not respect the status of Scottish sovereignty, then those who take the oath are no longer acting in the good faith of Scottish sovereignty; they have declared that Scottish sovereignty has a superior. If so, then how can it be sovereign? They have turned off the tap on Scottish red sovereignty by declaring the Queen superior, and God superior to the monarch. Both “superiors” are not superior at all, not to Scottish sovereignty. See the dilemma?
Doesn’t this mean there is no red sovereignty in the veins of Holyrood? Only white? Holyrood is in truth a sub-committee of Westminster’s greater collective, and only has the power devolved to it from Westminster because it is merely an instrument which cover to cover fully belongs to Westminster? There isn’t even a ratification exercise to qualify legislation before Scottish sovereignty tagged on at the end, and there should be.
This is not being pedantic. If, as appeared in the Herald recently, Nicola expects Brexit to be resolved as a legal wrangle before Supreme Court Judges, then isn’t it vitally important to confirm, and confirm absolutely, that a Scottish “Parliament” which swears its allegiance to a Monarch before God, can properly present any case to the Supreme Court on behalf of a truly sovereign Scotland? Nevermind the semantics or the flexible interpretations, if it wants one, the UK Supreme Court surely has an ambiguous technicallity which it could use to throw out any case it so desired. It would be us sent home tae think again.
It could also be there is no time for any appeal if the Supreme Court was to throw out the Scottish Government’s competence to act for Scotland, and we would find ourselves out of Europe.
This issue of Scotland’s sovereignty could be the proverbial time bomb, and we really ought to be studying the matter in forensic detail, and I mean FORENSIC. If the recent debate on the Claim of Right is anything to go by, there is potentially a big problem here and we need heavyweight constitutional expert to examine it pronto.
O/T
Dipped into the Conservative Party Conference there on TV. Ugh! I get a visceral reaction from seeing them sitting applauding a vision of the world which is at odds with decency and fairness.
They seem dead behind the eyes.
You know the type, they will reel off their paper qualifications and monetary success as evidence of their superior political views but are completely devoid of any emotional intelligence or empathy.
Ruth Davidson has done her bit of course, presenting as unrealistic a picture of Scotland to the UK Conservatives as Dugdale does to the UK Labour party.
Yes2BFree
@galamcennalath
Indeed.
In Indy Ref 1 the media were able to gte a bit of leverage on the one-party state ide, something they really went to town on after the General Election. Well, it’s a minority SNP Gov, so they can’t use that one. Instead they’re now focussing on any vote the Greens make against the SNP – and distorting it as usual. Their hope is to drive a wedge between us – that’s something we can NOT let happen, or we’re doing the Unionist media’s dirty, sneaky, filthy, disgusting, smelly job for them.
One addition for me is a huge disappointment over an absence of Conservatives in Indy Ref 1. Just according to Ashcroft, 4% of Conservative voters. I want to see 25% of Conservatives vote YES in Indy Ref 2, and I hope to see Conservatives for YES being very active, taking a front role. That tackles the “grey” vote as well.
Add in RISE and Radical, with some far left views, Kerevan who knows defecting to that at some stage, and then the electorate is faced with full spectrum politics in Independent Scotland, where even the Conservatives can represent Scotland rather than being a poodle to Westminster as Ruth Davidson and some of her party are.
That should make a YES almost certain.
The huge irony in all of this is that the mainstream media mafia plus unionist politicians will be ranting on about how scotland doesn’t even know the terms in which it is joining the EU.
At the same time they will airbrush out the fact that no one knows what brexit means.
It’s almost funny.
Does yes2 have a ‘war’ chest.?
We are going to need one
. That can appeal to a swathe of voters for Indy Ref 2, leaving the SNP clear to appeal to a more centre, and even a bit right of centre electorate. That takes us over the 50% in itself.
That’s what they want you to assume Green wise. Maybe they are but in Aberdeen they successfully blocked the AWPR for nearly a decade and its a block that added maybe a £1bn to the cost of that road alone. Trump Golf at Balmedie was blocked too and that became a massive vote NO weapon, via the Greens.
Why they blocked the AWPR? roads aren’t Green, ergo, Greens say NO, and all blocks paid for by very wealthy tories who did not want a motorway anywhere near them in their Scotland region.
Andy Murray wants to build a tennis centre at Dunblane, all blocked by the Greens. Why? A tennis centre is not Green
Just watching BBC 2 show American football match. Its probably not live but the BBC can show American football and never show Andy Murray tennis abroad.
Yoons, Green or not, hate just the idea of a Scotland that prospers and succeeds. Its just not British.
or
No one in Spain blocked this
link to rafanadalacademy.com
yesindyref2 says:
“I want to see 25% of Conservatives vote YES in Indy Ref 2, and I hope to see Conservatives for YES being very active, taking a front role. That tackles the “grey” vote as well.”
You are of course correct, and I hope not over optimistic 🙂
Circumstances have changed (understatement) since 2014 and it is conceivable that more Tory voters no longer see the UKOK as a safe haven for their cosy lifestyle.
When will the penny drop with those groups who tend to err towards Tory voting, like farmers for instance, that an isolationist UK is no longer in their interests!?
Ideally, they should be branded strongly as Scottish Conservatives for Indy because that would show, perhaps more than anything, that Indy is above specific party politics.
There is another aspect too. Tories are, almost by definition, self centred people who put their own interests first. That obviously includes politicians. If Indy looks likely then perhaps some Tory politians might imagine a life in politics after Indy. I can’t see any who fought tooth and nail to prevent it, having the credibility to continue after it. Some may jump.
We can dream!
Looking a lot like May was a quiet Brexiteer and that the impetus under her will be for enthusiastic Brexit. This should make things very cut and dried for Indyref2. No fudges and half measures to placate Scotland. No pretense that we are part of the deal.
This is good.
@galamcennalath
Wealthy Nation (now Wealthy Nation Institute) did do its bit, and I often quoted them on currency, central bank, as they had a wealth of information and ideas there, from respected people as well. But my guess is the went a bit softly softly because the general approach of YES was to remove the stranglehold Labour had over Scotland for decades, and their point of view might harm that.
But it’s very different now, Labour are all but gone, their stranglehold certainly having been released. So perhaps we’ll see more of them, a more vigorous promotion of their ideas for a wealthy Scotland – one which the lefties can share out while still leaving the wealthy better off!
Or something like that 🙂
The Conservative Party Conference may be on TV but it is nowhere to be seen on the BBC website. Still showing articles about the Labour Party Conference. What’s the matter? Shy?
I was hoping for some updates and maybe a clip or two.
No time like the present:
link to wealthynationinstitute.com
An interesting article there from Michael Fry with this:
“THE Scottish government has at last put economic growth at, or at least near, the top of its political agenda. In her speech at Holyrood on September 6 setting out the legislative programme for the coming year, Nicola Sturgeon spent several minutes extolling the concept of economic growth in a way no other first minister has done since we achieved devolution in 1999. I hope it will turn out to have been a historic moment.“
heedtracker (2:16pm)
Didn’t watch it but thought as much, thanks for the clarification!
Still mibees aye mibees naw then?
_____
Tam the Bam wrote (@2:11pm)
“If the establishment cannot work out what you want from Brexit….”
ffs, Tam, i read that as – If the establishment cannot work out what you want for breakfast…. as the word CEREAL screamed around my cranial cavity. 🙂
@HandandSbrimp
Agreed. All that’s missing are the tackety boots. It’s a performance of Rule Britannia, which is what she needed to do.
Lot of delusional pomp there though, which is more good, cos it will be doubly embarrassing when they are told GTF.
Just musing here, but I wonder if the intelligentsia down south will get off their arse once they see the writing on the wall of EU rights being stripped away.
For sports fans, Murray’s in Beijing
link to bbc.co.uk
BBC gimps report, Novak Djokovic pulls out of China Open with elbow injury.
Also BBC 2 afternoon sports coverage,
NFL Live#
Nat Coombs presents live coverage of the first of two NFL International Series games in 2016 as the Indianapolis Colts take on the Jacksonville Jaguars at Wembley Stadium. The Jaguars are hoping their return to London delivers a similar result to their trip to the UK last year, which saw them beat the Buffalo Bills 34-31 courtesy of a late diving touchdown from Allen Hurns.
NOT the Indianapolis Colts and the Jacksonville Jaguars!
Looking a lot like May was a quiet Brexiteer and that the impetus under her will be for enthusiastic Brexit.
By the look of BBC sofa’d May this morning, in front of a very gentle ickle wickle Marr, all they can do now is begin art 50 and then wait and watch as the EU decides what they will do with the UK. Its that simple. The idea that the UK can tell the EU’s 27 countries what to do is clearly barking tory mad, Daily Heil/torygraph/BBC newsroom style.
The EU are going to tell May that the UK can have single market access to the EU but only with freedom of movement.
May and co then have to decide, do they accept that offer and face UKIP’s xenophobe onslaught to red and blue toryboy England, or do they say Non and watch more and more industrial investment disappear in front their teamGB rules the waves hooters?
What a historic legacy for pig fancier Cameron and all for toryboy politiky shite. Proud Scotbuts must be so proud right now.
Proud Cybernat
It doesn’t matter if they laws stay the same the trade agreements won’t exist.
heedtracker wrote (@3:32pm)
“..Also BBC 2 afternoon sports coverage, NFL Live#..”
I know! Seen that when scanning the tv listings yesterday, thank goodness i don’t pay them one thin dime for the tripe they serve.
NFL? Jeeez! What can you say? So glad our foreign masters (BBC) dictate and influence our sporting preferences, aren’t you! 🙁
I read this on The Independent’s comments section.
“I understand that by virtue of the Lisbon Treaty, Article 50 will not exist after 31 March 2017 and the amalgamation of the 28 countries of the EU (including the UK) becomes permanent with no provision for withdrawal.?”
Is this true anyone?
“Is this true anyone?”
No.
Capella says:
2 October, 2016 at 3:20 pm
The Conservative Party Conference may be on TV but it is nowhere to be seen on the BBC website. Still showing articles about the Labour Party Conference. What’s the matter? Shy?
I was hoping for some updates and maybe a clip or two.
………
I should imagine the BBC are hard at work editing the proceedings to make it look like the Tories were talking sense. Hence the delay in any clips from the conference.
Brian Powell
“It doesn’t matter if they laws stay the same the trade agreements won’t exist.”
Sure. But the whole point is Maggie May and crew are saying they will negotiate a NEW trade agreement with the EU post-Brexit and that, naturally, will be much easier to do if the UK remains compliant with existing EU laws. May is doing this, imho, to make it as easy as possible for the EU to continue to trade with the UK. Whether they will want to or not is another matter.
As I said earlier – the crunch will be on what terms the UK may be given access to the single market. I rather doubt the EU will make it easy for the UK to have their cake after they have left the party. What kind of message would that send out to the other 27 EU member states?
May says, “I will never allow divisive nationalists to undermine the precious union of the 4 nations of our UK”
How very odd coming from the group who seem to be trying their damnest to destroy the Union ….. I have to assume she is NOT talking about the divisive isolationist separatist Brexiteer nationalists who have been causing so much trouble recently!
Perhaps she has some other group in mind 😉
Alastair @ 2.06 pm
And Dave MacLean Hill.
The Royal Prerogative would not be the Queen making the decision but her Prime Minister in whom the power is invested.
Prime Ministers have the power to invoke the Royal Prerogative for example in declaring war. This allows them to bypass Parliament. The possibility that Theresa May would use it when it comes to the EU and all the attendant issues has been openly mooted.
If she, May, did then watch the sparks fly.
So I have this kind of vision.
In the van you have Sturgeon on her white charger, full armour and spear, with the SNP behind as the main charge. On the left you have the RIC and Greens, ready to mop up any breakaway left wing NO stragglers, and on the right you have Conservatives for YES doing the same for the right wing who really should realise the opportunities for them in Indy Scotland are fandamntastic.
In reserve you have Women for Independence, BfS and other groups, ready to swoop in at any opportunity, the Libs for Indy to persuade anyone worried about civil liberties, police stations and that sort of traditional Liberal values which the LibDems have deserted, Lab for Indy appealing to workers who don’t like the SNP.
And all around is non-aligned YES2, doing its bit. Soon there’s a bewildered group of just a couple of thousand hardcore NO activists, wondering where everyone’s gone and why they’re on their own. Oh, they joined YES2.
yesindyref2@4.08pm.
Yep that’s a great wee vision to have. We are however talking about elections and you can’t vote for Indyref2 grassroots can you?
Well. It appears the battle lines are well and truly drawn. What Scotland wants does NOT matter. What our people want does NOT matter. What matters is the will of the majority of English voters.
I think I see a Constitutional Crisis looming, because our devolved Parliament will have a say on this issue. If Westminster overrule that say , then we have real problems in our relationship. They may even look at disbanding our Parliament.
Over my dead body. The relationship clarifies and what we see is the stark truth. There is no affection or consideration. There is giving ,only to take more ..
They become my mortal enemy.
@Flower of Scotland
Sure. Council elections are on the STV, so anyone can happily put SNP 1 and 2, even 3 if there’s 3 SNP candidates, and put Green or RISE afterwards, without damaging SNP in the slightest, which is very different from the d’Hondt Holyrood elections.
Greens and RISE can do the same, putting SNP after their candidates.
Votes are transferred only when a candidate is eliminated.
yesindyref2 says:
“Council elections are on the STV … Votes are transferred only when a candidate is eliminated.”
One thing is certain – Unionists will be encouraging every voter of their persuasion to put Lab-Con-LibDem or whatever order of Yoon most appeals to each of their voters.
The secret of success in the council elections is to get our voters out! People have to appreciate that SNP run councils is another step towards Indy.
Back on topic
Will the impact zone when he hits be bigger than this?
link to earthsky.org
@yesindyref2
All I’m saying is that Patrick Harvey and the Greens have been a huge disappointment when they sided with the Unionists.
Social media is full of exasperation with the Greens.
Maybe they will take note.
Iain More says:
“the impact zone”
Aye, Brexit could well be a major extinction event 😆
@galamcennalath
“One thing is certain – Unionists will be encouraging every voter of their persuasion to put Lab-Con-LibDem or whatever order of Yoon most appeals to each of their voters.”
There has been ample evidence of Yoons voting tactically to keep SNP out since the last Moray Council By-election. Indeed at that election there was private collusion between Yoon candidates. The winning Independent Candidate getting in eventually on the backs of Tory second preference votes. The net result was to prop up one of the most corrupt and incompetent Yoon Council Alliances in Scotland. Oh and a hefty percentage of the effin Greens gave their second etc votes to the Yoon candidates.
The Yoons will be encouraging any and all Yoons to get out and vote even for ancient tribal political enemies to stop the SNP getting any control on any council. It wont matter to the Yoons how corrupt or incompetent their present Yoon controlled Councils are.
Breeks @
For what it’s worth and until Robert gets time to answer you.
I understood that when the MSPs were taking their oath in Holyrood, it was to The Queen Of Scot’s.
Also I think though I am not sure that the presence of the Mace (the great seal of Scotland) confirmed that it is the Scottish Monarchy,that is reverent here.
Therefore,its the concept of two Crown’s one Head that is at play.
You’re analogy of the Red/White concept sort of works but the Soverenty that the Red Crown’s represents is ours , and is Transferable.
Unlike the Soverenty of the White Crown which never is.
So it is indeed going to be a huge problem for the courts,for to claim that one kind of Soverenty is superior risks the legitimacy of the other.
Since 1707 the west Loathian,question is not by any stretch been the only unanswered one.
In fact it is looking like history will show that the only way not to have split the Union was just not to have asked.
They will probably go all round the houses to make the legal issues concerning Brexit to be about everything and anything else other than a decision on popular/absolute soverenty.
To keep the illusion that these two Sovereigns were ever compatible and avoid the general public understanding that they are Infact the direct opposite of each other.
Scotland could realise her power and England could finally understand she is owned and owned forever.
Hope that helps.
Re my comment @ 4.54 pm sorry forgot to and the time.
Replying to Break @ 2.40
Oops! The Great Escape Bill will require the consent of the Scottish Parliament – says the Scottish Brexit Czar, Mike Russell.
” Speaking to the BBC’s Sunday Politics Scotland programme, Mr Russell said such a bill would concern devolved matters and would therefore require MSPs’ approval.
He said: “This Great Repeal Act will require the approval of the Scottish parliament – a legislative consent motion will be required.
“So the Scottish government, the Scottish Parliament has a formal role there.”
link to bbc.co.uk
Proud Cybernat
If the UK do a deal then break any of the 4 central requirements of the EU the deal would become invalid.
In any event the EU wouldn’t trust the UK and I would assume the EU would be moving any banking dealing involving the euro to EU countries, and of course if the UK changed any standards or regulations that didn’t fit the EU standards the deal would need to be renegotiated.
In reply to Robert Peffers try telling that to your wife I freely admit that I wish I was as brave as my tongue
heedtracker says:
2 October, 2016 at 3:42 pm
Looking a lot like May was a quiet Brexiteer and that the impetus under her will be for enthusiastic Brexit
Based on May’s history, I always suspected her of being a closet Brexiteer. She did virtually nothing for the REMAIN campaign. IMO she was keeping low and hedging her bets until the EU ref result was clear. When BREXIT became clear, she made her move.
Coming soon (whether we like it or not):
Hard BREXIT.
Hell mend her.
Could someone correct me if I’m wrong but I’ve heard that the opposition parties are out to undermine the SNP on a vote on income tax. The Greens are expected to side with them.
Also I’d like to know why Dugdale is banging on about raising income tax when labour in Wales have refused to do this but are going to charge their students £9000 instead. It’s the hypocrisy and politicking that bugs me more than the policies.
Many in the indy movement support a lot of the Green policies. However if they are seen to undermine the best chance by far of us getting indy – the SNP – they will end up losing votes – surely they have seen what happens with parties that do that?
Capella
My guess is the UK Gov will be trying to bring in a law that will circumvent that, that will allow the spineless wonders in the LabLibs, who might have had a difficult choice to make to say, ‘oh well we tried, but fit can ye dae’. Maybe the Greens won’t join them.
@Iain More
“Oh and a hefty percentage of the effin Greens gave their second etc votes to the Yoon candidates.”
On the other hand, perhaps it’s Unionists giving their first vote to the greens.
It was made clear during the EU campaign,and before it,that voting for leave would lead to independence for scotland.They still voted leave.
To me,they accepted that as an outcome when they voted leave outside Scotland.
yesindyref2 @ 16:22
This is true but with a caveat, re STV. (I know because I’ve fallen into the same erroneous thinking myself.)
The first candidates to be “eliminated” from the reckoning are not the “losers”, as tends to be assumed, but the “winners”. And any “surplus” of votes over the predetermined hurdle that a “winner” has received are transferred to everyone else still in the running, in proportion to the next preferences of all the votes received. Only when there are no more “winners” do “losers” begin to be eliminated and their preferences transferred. So it’s “top-down” at first, and only “bottom-up” afterwards.
A strict SNP 1-2(-3) should still be OK, though, as you suggest. But any deviation from that could see next preferences accumulate for some candidate other than a trailing SNP one that eventually cause the latter to be eliminated.
Contrariwise, the SNP could benefit from a Green or RISE voter putting their party preference first (“voting according to conscience”) then SNP afterwards. Provided these voters cared about indy, which alas not all of them do. But they need to be kept on board as far as possible.
The absolutely essential thing to get over, though, at least in urban areas, is for all pro-indy supporters NEVER to put Labour as any preference. Correct me if I’m mistaken, but I believe that last time many (ex-Labour?) voters did put Labour in as later preferences. Partly this may be due to the mistaken belief of some that they have to rank everyone on the ballot. Not so. (The same presumably applies to the Tories and so-called “independents” in rural wards.)
It will be interesting to see if Tory voters are still prepared to give any preferences to a Corbyn-led Labour party. (Ian Murray MP’s nightmare.) Maybe at a local level though they still might…
I shall make this extremely clear from the off, NOBODY except the SNP are getting my vote next year.
Anyone not happy can simply get stuffed.
I am not currently convinced the Scottish Greens will back a referendum vote when it comes.
If the Greens continue to play games in the Scottish Parliament, the SNP will be unable to govern and would call an election.
The losers would be the Greens. If I were them, I’d sit down with the SNP and find some common ground, otherwise it’s oblivion for them.
Noticed Ruth Davidoon at the Tory conference gave a speech against a backdrop saying Scottish Conservative and Unionist.
Is that ‘Scottish’ word actually meant to signify anything. BLiS is forever playing on its supposed autonomy. This isn’t something we hear from the BCUiS though.
Given just how mega Unionist and BritNatthe Tories are, why would they want to be seen as Scottish in any way?
galamcennalath @ 17:51,
Ach, it’s just a “Proud-Scot-But” thing. (Think “Sunday Post”.) There really are Tartan Tories!
It is now plainly evident, post May’s speech, Scotland has two choices come IndyRef2.
Either to become Independent and create a better future for everyone, or be destroyed.
It really is that simple.
Re STV elections,would your ballot be counted as valid if you only voted for snp and not had any other preferences at all,or must the voter list other party as a second preference. I mean,is it required to have a second/third/fourth choice?
From Politics.co.uk editor, a snippet:
‘Instead, May bafflingly gave a date upon which to start negotiations. She announced it, in an offhand way, while speaking on the Andrew Marr programme this morning. She did so so flippantly that one wonders whether she even realised it gave her leverage.
Afterwards, she asked Europe for preliminary talks. This is how Donald Tusk responded: “Once Art. 50’s triggered, EU27 will engage to safeguard its interests.”
It was a clear no, followed by a robust statement of self-interest. It is a preview of the type of treatment she can expect once she goes to Brussels.
When the talks begin, she will discover that Europe does not even need to debate trade with us. The vague wording of Article 50 means it’s up to them. They can make it all about administrative divorce proceedings if they like. They now have all the cards.
The lunatics at the Tory conference applauded all of this. They cheered the Union, even as May announced the greatest strain she could possibly impose on it. They cheered when a speaker mentioned Gibraltar, even though it was now at risk like never before. They cheered dreams of British economic greatness, which are now in jeopardy precisely because of the policy they were jubilant about
May appears strong but she has wrapped herself in her own straightjacket. Everything now is in the hands of Europe.
If there is any hope it is with those who are still prepared to speak the things which are in front of their eyes. People who are still prepared to say that losing tariff-free access to our biggest market is not wise, that putting investment at threat is to handicap our own prospects. People who will point out that a two year timetable to unravel four decades of law and create a substantial trade deal is not realistic. People who believe that by having open borders and an open society, Britain is stronger and more beautiful and more successful. People who believe that sabotaging Ireland and pushing away Scotland is not how one keeps the Union together. People who recognise that a 52% vote on a vague question is not a mandate for the most radical possible interpretation of a referendum result.’
link to politics.co.uk
The lunatics have taken over the asylum. We need out and I say to the universe (aka Nicola) that we are ready to go whenever she is.
msean @ 18:03,
Yes, it’s perfectly valid to restrict your preferences in any way you please.
It’s good that you asked that, because you’re not alone. It’s a point that still seems to be poorly understood in general.
You just vote for whom you want, in the order that you want.
A wee question for Robert Peffers.
When you have time Sir no rush,espically are you are a popular man today and I do know that you take time to answer in depth.
When Nicola Sturgeon said that she saw the Brexit issues ultimately ending up in court,did you perceive that as a threat?
I have been wondering,because at the risk of sounding lyrical.
When it comes to Soverenty.
I know that she knows.
They know that she knows.
She knows they know she knows.
So who knows if her statement caused all this panic we are seeing.
I don’t know for certain,could you take a guess?
I think it matters because if that is the main line of the campaign we really need to be up to speed with it,as this is one area of argument that has huge potential for smoke and mirrors/let’s befuddle line from the No camp.
However many SNP candidates are on your ballot paper, vote for them all. DO NOT VOTE FOR ANY OTHER PARTY.
Does anyone think that May and the Brexiteers might just be daft enough to disband Holyrood if it votes down their Great EU Repeal Bill/Act??
I honestly think they might actually be that daft based on what they’ve siad and done since the vote in June.
K1 @ 18:03:
A point well recalled there. Most likely it will not, as was authoritatively explained in some detail by Prof. Michael Dougan during the EUref itself. To deaf ears, mainly, it would seem.
But for all the wishful thinking past and present, there’s going to be no avoiding the Big Splat when it finally comes!
“May speech makes it clear: We’re leaving the single market”
I cannot imagine any Brexit deal outside the ESM being acceptable to the SG.
IndyRef2 seems much closer today than it was yesterday!
link to archive.is
Liz g @ 6.09pm
The Brexit issue is already before the courts:
link to theguardian.com
And it is highly likely that there will be other legal challenges and this is likely to be what Ms Sturgeon meant particularly in light of the report by Professor Douglas-Scott. Links to it have been given on various threads possibly this one too.
I know a lot of people that fill up all the ballot during the Council Election. Do not do this. Only vote for the SNP. If only one SNP member is standing in your area vote 1 for SNP and leave the rest blank. Do not let any Unionist/Backstabbing Greens/So called “Independents in by the back door. I pity any Nationalist who “Loaned” their second vote in May 2016 to the Greens. They really are Fair Weather Friends.
So by the end of March 2019 is looking like the date???? So now we have a timetable for Indy Ref2?????
The question marks are because the British State is ever mendacious.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I feel upset and fearful today with May,s speech and the cheering of the conservatives for “British” laws. It’s almost like Germany in the 1930,s.
My son in law is German and he sees the similarities. This Government, to me, seems on its way to fascism.
We have to get out of this god awful Union.
Scary don’t you think? I’m now seriously following events whilst making comparisons to Nazi Germany. Inept, corrupt politicians botching up the economy, high levels of poverty, inequality, scapegoating, propaganda, brainwashing, rise in racism and so on. Then of course trying to instil the notion of National ‘greatness’ with mass howling of Jerusalem and more waving of ye old Union Jack. The latest example of course is Theresa May’s proposal for the ‘GREAT Repeal Bill’. They just couldn’t leave it out, could they? The only difference that I can determine so far, between the UK and Nazi Germany, is that Hitler didn’t create the financial mess that led to National fervour, that was in part due to Great British ‘interventions’.
So what next? The BBC and meeja moving up a gear with their promotion of the GREAT British Brexit. Best thing to happen since Great English sliced bread. Continuing to inform the masses of the poor and ill-educated (as per Joseph Rowantree Report) of the wonderful things to come? Backlash when the promises don’t materialise? Warning the Scots that we won’t be allowed to trade with rUK, thousands of jobs will be lost, Scotland will disappear down that great black hole, we’ll be invaded by millions of Turks and terrorists etc, etc.
Someone tell me FGS that some of the Scottish journalists who have been peddling lies are going to change their ways some time soon. Change their ways because they love their country and are conversant with true facts. This also applies to people like Kezia Dugdale. How on earth can she continue to bleat on about wanting Scotland to stay in the UK AND the EU. She’ll have to decide where her loyalties lie: With her bosses in London, current unelectable as she says, or the people of Scotland.
……………………..
Thanks for the great links folks:
Tam at 9:19 pm …. ‘Abolishing the European Act of 1972’. Massive repercussions for us now becoming clear as an example, ONE of many, all legal cases in the UK will now end in the House of Lords. No appealing to the EU Court of Justice. I’ve been down that (House of Lords) sleazy road and it’s totally corrupt.
Boris at 12:33 pm …. A really interesting read Boris.
Heedtracker at 11:55 am …. ‘Brexit Explained’. Just about sums it up. Those backing Brexit were in the main living on low incomes, lacking skills / educational attainment and felt ‘strongly English’. Sad to think that leaving the EU will no doubt exacerbate the aforementioned issues.
@ Galamcennalath at 2:12 pm …. ‘SNP 100 questions.’ SNP et al slogging away behind the scenes. Brilliant. I wonder if the Telegraph will publish this?
……………
Some good articles in the Sunday Herald today such as on Darren McGarvey (Loki) and ‘Digital Revolution: How Scotland’s computer games industry will be bigger than oil, according to global experts.’ “Predicting a Scottish bonanza in jobs and revenues from games created in Scotland which will ‘eclipse’ offshore energy.. ….. Trade association Tiga last week said Scotland has 1,290 permanent and full time equivalent creative staff working on game development in 85 companies.”
‘From Grand Theft Auto to Minecraft: Welcome to the Golden age of gaming’. ”Two of the World’s biggest selling games being developed here …. If the Scottish games industry is to become as big as oil then that success will be built on the backs of the young people now emerging as future talent.”
C’mon kids you can do it. Make this a success and don’t forget to vote Yes for Independence.
AND “scientists in Germany are using the ultra-realistic Scottish Grand Theft Auto to teach driverless cars of the future how not to kill. The artificial intelligence software systems that will steer vehicles are learning through the game’s virtual reality.”
Renewable energy said to be more lucrative than our oil industry and now it’s our computer game industry. We’ve got it all. Too wee, poor and stupid?
……………
Condolences to the loved ones of Mike Towell and the Rangers fan who died in the bus crash. RIP.
@Robert J. Sutherland
Absolutely, I forgot the winners first thing.
The other thing is that up to now the SNP have often only put forward 2 candidates when there say, 4 wards. But I get the feeling that with the 120,000+, there’s going to be more, so in a 4 ward with 4 SNP candidates standing it would obviously be best for SNP 1,2,3 and 4. For an SNP voter of course 🙂
@ Flower of Scotland and others:
I was at RIC in Glasgow yesterday, and Patrick Harvie spoke in the first plenary session.
Listening to him, I was almost convinced that he really genuinely supports independence but…
he also said that the Greens intended to make sure that the SNP did not manage to pass undesirable (I forget his exact words) legislation at Holyrood with Tory support!
Quite apart from the fact that I don’t see how he can stop the Tories voting with the SNP if they want to (would they ever?), he’s clearly not averse to collaborating with the Tories himself.
I considered challenging him about it face to face, but did not see him again. There were no questions in the session itself, and I’m not sure I’m brave enough to ask one anyway.
Ross Greer used the “we’re not SNP lapdogs” argument to excuse what they’ve done so far, but then he didn’t say anything about SNP/Tory agreement.
bugsby (and K1),
What you say makes perfect sense if you’re an SNP supporter, but not if you’re not. It’s also absolutely essential to convince as many non-SNP supporters as possible to put SNP as a second preference.
Don’t forget, that is exactly what Labour are counting on from dastardly Tory supporters, as we have already seen in recent by-elections.
Every transfer vote counts. This is not the wacky world of WM “winner takes all”. By all means convince SNP voters to stick to the straight-and-narrow, but don’t gratuitously offend others either. The joy of STV is that there is much to be harvested, if done with smarts…
K1 wrote:
“However many SNP candidates are on your ballot paper, vote for them all. DO NOT VOTE FOR ANY OTHER PARTY.”
That IS the only way to go! Spread the word, troops!
_____
Jockanese Wind Talker wrote:
“Does anyone think that May and the Brexiteers might just be daft enough to disband Holyrood if it votes down their Great EU Repeal Bill/Act?? I honestly think they might actually be that daft based on what they’ve said and done since the vote in June.
Oh please let that be so!
_____
Britain will trigger Article 50 before the end of March says Theresa May (From the Press Association Political Staff):
link to archive.is
Petra says:
“‘SNP 100 questions.’ SNP et al slogging away behind the scenes. Brilliant. I wonder if the Telegraph will publish this?”
That is a very relevant set of questions. Great fodder for interviewers at a loss about what to pin Tories down on!
I expect they will be ignored for being potentially damaging to WM!
It would also be a good game of bingo! Crossing off the questions as answers are given. No one will live long enough to win, though.
galamcennalath says at 6:17 pm
link to archive.is
I wonder how much the markets will react on Monday morning?
If there is to be no access to ESM for trade, movement etc. I think the Japanese will move Ops out of Sunderland as they said they would.
UK economy and Sterling will start to head South and reach terminal velocity once Article 50 is triggered.
Robert J Sutherland @ 5.34 pm
“”The first candidates to be “eliminated” from the reckoning are not the “losers”, as tends to be assumed, but the “winners”. And any “surplus” of votes over the predetermined hurdle that a “winner” has received are transferred to everyone else still in the running, in proportion to the next preferences of all the votes received. Only when there are no more “winners” do “losers” begin to be eliminated and their preferences transferred. So it’s “top-down” at first, and only “bottom-up” afterwards.””
I am a bit puzzled by the STV system. If what you say is correct then how do you end up with the recent results in by-elections where in one, Ms Sturgeon’s father, the SNP had the most votes but did not win the seat which would seem to accord with your description of how it works. But in the Fife by-election Labour had the most votes and did, eventually, win the seat.
I know by-elections under STV can throw up anomalous results such as the two mentioned above but does that hold too in a full STV election?
O/T I am getting messages when I hit the submit button that the site is unavailable. My Wi-Fi connection is working OK. Anyone else getting this type of message?
STV uses a combination of election of winners and elimination of losers, according to this article:
link to en.wikipedia.org
“An STV election starts with every voter’s first choice, according to the following steps:
1.A candidate who has reached or exceeded the quota is declared elected.
2.If a candidate has more votes than the quota, surplus votes are transferred to other candidates. Votes that would have gone to the winner go to the next preference.
3.If no-one new meets the quota, the candidate with the fewest votes is eliminated and those votes are transferred.
4.This process repeats until either a winner is found for every seat or there are as many seats as remaining candidates.”
@bugsbunny and @K1
As long as you vote for all the SNP candidates 1,2,3 and 4 if there is a 3rd and th, you are NOT voting against your own candidate.
After that, it depends on whether you’d like an out and out Unionist to get in, rather than a “fair weather” Green or RISE persuming they stand.
Personally I’d far prefer a pro-Indy Green, or even a neutral one, to a rabid NO voting SNP-hating one of the other lot.
What I say makes great sense if I’m a supporter of Independence Robert. It’s up to others to weigh up Tory Rule for the next decade or more outside EU versus Scotland Independent inside the EU. This isn’t about the SNP or party politics anymore.
This is about Scotland’s future.
@ Legerwood
My post was affected by the “you are posting too quickly” message, so I did not see yours till later.
I think the issue with the by-elections is that, with only one successful candidate possible, the “quota” is 50%+1.
If no-one gets this in the first round, the eliminations kick in. You cannot redistribute second or lower preferences of the winner, because there is no-one to give them to – once someone has been elected that’s it. (This does not apply in those rare cases where two seats in a ward are simultaneously being contested in a by-election.)
They do sometimes (?always) seem to dish out the lower preferences for completeness and maybe deposit-saving, but that cannot alter the result; one and only one candidate has reached the quota.
@Legerwood
Sturgeon’s dad got the most votes first round, but below the threshold. Being a by-election for one ward I presume that was 50%. So then the 2nd preference were taken in, nobody one, and so on. It was I think the final round when the winner went over the 50% – Labour, with Tory votes.
won not one, my so-called brain seems to be doing smelling by ear.
Legerwood @ 6.21
Yes I have heard about that court case,but that’s not Holyrood asking for a judgement,infact I did worry that when that judgement is handed down it will be used as a backdoor somehow to set the precedent for Royal Prerogative to supercede everything else.
One of those Scottish soverenty does exist cause it’s never been struck down but we don’t actually have to acknowledge it because a court just confirmed Westminster is acting within it’s power’s,and we didn’t get rid of Scottish soverenty cause we weren’t actually asked about it,so there.
Type of argument.
My only indication that this type of argument won’t be allowed to fly is the kind of statements that Nicola Sturgeon is making.
But they are so….quelle Suprrese…..under reported it’s hard to tell if this is indeed going to be a major issue in Indy Ref 2.
The STV system for your council is not particularly difficult, but is not really simple either. You rank your candidates in order of preference 1.2.3. etc.
The total valid votes cast is divided by the number of seats plus 1. The resulting number is rounded up, or has 1 added if its a whole number. This is the “quota”. So for a 4 member ward you need 1 out of 5 votes to be elected, and for a 3 member ward, 1 out of 4. Per councillor.
The SNP will likely issue fliers urging different parts of a constituency to place candidates in 1 or 2 or 3, because a clever cookie will have worked out how to maximise our vote.
Now so long as the SNP candidate wins 20% or 25% of the first preferences depending on number of seats, they will be elected. However there are many wards with popular candidates who attract votes even from people who don’t like their party. There are new issues with yoons who will only vote yoon – even though their council is run by yoon donkeys. Remember Red Morningside!
This is going to be a tough election. More important than anything else, we must get SNP voters to actually vote. The reason we did not get a majority at Holyrood is down to ” SNP guaranteed to win, so I don’t need to vote”. Turnout is crucial.
If a candidate exceeds the quota, he has a “surplus” vote. if 2 or more candidates exceed the quota, the one with the highest surplus has their second preferences redistributed first. That could be enough to elect a subsequent councillor. The second preferences of the other quota surplus are ignored at this stage.
So it is possible for a popular candidate from a yoon party to overwhelmingly take the first seat, and the second seat to go to a Yesser on the first preferences. But the surplus of the yoon may result in a second yoon winning the third place, even if that yoon was behind the second placed Yesser. And the yoon could be from any party.
So I would suggest you take heed of what order the election fliers you receive ask you to place the Yes candidates. And to vote only for Yes candidates. I would want you to vote only SNP, but I appreciate there are others who are also Yes.
If you do really want a good Yoon ( see how I admit there are some good ones ) as your first preference, please give your second/third preferences to Yessers. If you are canvassing and encounter voters who want to vote a Yoon because they like him – or he is good – please urge them to put the Yes candidates as second/third preference.
The only guarantee of SNP control of most councils would be a uniforn actual vote of over 50% in all seats across the country uniformly. And that ain’t going to happen. And despite that, we would still have substantial numbers of Yoons elected.
The simplest thing is to vote only Yes candidates. You don’t have to put any more than a 1 against a single candidate. Or you can rank them all. But ranking a Yoon even 4th may be enough to see one elected.
It doesn’t really matter what any other party SAYS about Independence there’s only one can be trusted to deliver it
When push comes to shove and the Ref gets started who do we think the media is going to pay attention to and give air time to
Ruth Davidson’s every word while she’s lickin a lolly, Willie Rennie’s every word on a bouncy castle , even Dim Kezia will get attention, but I’ll tell you who wont be seen much, Patrick Harvie because in media terms he’s not worth the effort nobody cares about him
The biggest coverage will go to Nicola Sturgeon pictures with the sound turned down and a narrator misreporting everything she says while they flash more angry face photos
We all know it’ll happen, every trick will be turned on us by the media and there’ll be no point complaining, they don’t care, they have their job to do in preserving the Union, although this time I don’t believe there’ll be much of a Westminster presence or even argument from the Tories
they’ll try and leave it all again to Labour so that if their campaign fails and Scotland wins it’s Independence the Tories can blame the LOSS of Scotland on Labour thereby securing forever Tory rule in England, which after all is all that really counts to them
Theresa May isn’t David Cameron who was prepared to do the bribery thing, she’s just the opposite, even though I believe her to be as weak as dishwater and her big brave mouth is for show, otherwise she wouldn’t have needed to surround herself with as many nasties as she could, we can expect big bad budget cuts to Scotland and as many punitive measures as the Tories can come up with to start the stripping of money and assets in preparation for their glorious future, and the horror of it all could be
We lose!
Then that’ll be a horse of an entirely different colour
after the disestablishment of the Scottish Parliament which they refused to make permanent after the Smith Commission
Remember that
Thing about STV is giving anyone any of your preferences is saying, “I’d be fairly happy if they were elected”
That doesn’t mean “elected after my first choice”, it possibly means “elected instead of my first choice”.
The idea of STV is to ensure that every candidate elected will make 50%+ of voters “fairly happy”.
So, give away none of your preferences to any candidates you aren’t willing to see actually win!
I have been pondering events for some time, and today the statement by May brought some clarity to a number of issues
Firstly why are England so desperate to hang on to Scotland,always portrayed as a ” sponger” and drain on the English finances. There has to be a tangible reason other than just the sake of having it in your portfolio. The reason is oil and gas. The Rev recently posted an article about Norway, citing the revenues they accrue in comparison to the UK They were significantly different.
The only answer that makes sense of these figures is if the UK had Mortgaged the fields off as security for loans. Where else could the money go ? This would also explain their desperation to conceal Scotlands finances.
Secondly it now makes sense as to why the Tories are hitting EU legislation first and foremost. They plan to deprive Scotland the opportunity for a second referendum.
After all, if the EU courts are not involved,they will claim the final arbiter in the decision to allow a referendum or not will lie with the English Supreme Court. I think we can all guess what that decision will be.
This is very risky strategy. She is gambling that the Scottish people will accept this decision, and/or that the numbers during the referendum in 2014 will remain valid.
In effect ,she is going to use a confrontational approach to Scotland, gambling we have no recourse to legal ability to overturn Westminster dictum, or that she can garner enough( seemingly) public display of support to justify her actions.
Remember the Rev has posted that the Unionists are fund raising for something earlier than seemed necessary. Is this behind that initiative ?
I would not be in the least surprised if it was also on the cards to disband Holyrood next year. We need to gird our loins. This is going to be a nasty business.
How in Daffy Duck Land have we been saddled with two totally baffling incomprehensible bleedn batty voting systems , you either vote for something or someone or you dont its that bloody simple. if some type of proportional system is prefered then allocate a seat by percentage of the vote, you dont lump all the other votes together to make the winner the loser , and to any clever f/kr who cares to comment along the lines of Oh you dont understand the subtle technical nuances that make the system fair and proportionate go f/k yourself and i give as an example the Holyrood chamber filled with chancers who the public told to piss off but are sitting on their fat arses laughing at the mugs who are paying their wages, what may look good in theory dosnt always work in practice.
From the link at the bottom of this post this, alone, is a veritable minefield, from all angles:
“The Bill is expected to be brought forward in the next parliamentary session (2017-18) and will not pre-empt the two-year process of leaving the EU, which begins when the Government triggers Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty.”
“Mr Davis will say: “It’s very simple. At the moment we leave, Britain must be back in control. And that means EU law must cease to apply.”
“To ensure continuity, we will take a simple approach. EU law will be transposed into domestic law, wherever practical, on exit day.”
“It will be for elected politicians here to make the changes to reflect the outcome of our negotiation and our exit.”
“That is what people voted for: power and authority residing once again with the sovereign institutions of our own country.”
“The repeal Bill will end the primacy of EU law, meaning rulings by the European Court of Justice will stop applying to the UK once the legislation takes effect.”
link to archive.is
Those who like it better stock up now on popcorn, i’ll get a big supply of Black Jacks at the ready. 🙂
Thank you Robert J Sutherland for your reply.
I just wanted to clarify that I don’t HAVE to vote 1-2-3-4-etc in order to have my vote made valid, I don’t want to be voting in any way for tories or their multi coloured variants. Ever.
I think that even if there are local reasons for voting for a certain party,as local politics seems to be different,nationally,certain parties will take any win as a reflection of their support for the union.
@galamcennalath
I don’t think that’s right, in fact I know it’s not right, your 2nd preference vote will ONLY be given to that candidate, if your 1st preference candidate is eliminated. So your 2nd preference can NOT be used to prefer your 2nd choice over your 1st.
Stoker,
“Now would be a very good time for someone to open up a book on the forthcoming delaying excuses. Put my money on May being ousted or some “national emergency” such as a war or royal death.”
I am of a similar view.
They definitely don’t want Brexit and will try to delay it as much as possible hoping that it can eventually be prevented completely.
Re by-elections for local government seat, they change from STV to become Alternative Vote just want the LD wanted in their referendum in 2011 for Westminster.
Now with the possibility of the Tories actually doing something on leaving the EU now is the time for the Yes side to start fundraising again.
I’m out, this anti-green thing does my head in, man!
I want 2 things only from Greens, but in fact just the 1 thing will do.
When there’s a vote in Holyrood about holding Indy Ref 2, I want the Green Party to support that vote so we get Indy Ref 2. That’s it, full stop, duty done. If they want to support a YES vote during the Ref campaign, then good, that’s a wee bonus.
Back to sorting out my stupid computers.
Is Theresa May working for us?
Hard Brexit
Anti-immigration….she will have the “get out of the country” billboards back up before long.
Fairly clear anti-Scottish interests stance
Threat to prevent Scottish independence
It is almost like she is ticking a checklist that will trigger a second referendum and make it difficult for anyone to side with the Tories (even Labour this time)
We live in interesting times.
@Galamcennalath 6.17
Ian Dunt is bricking it, and so am I.
Folks, excellent piece on the post above, do read it. Very cogent, but you can feel the fear.
SNP will be in their war bunker as we speak. Gonna be a white knuckle ride.
Rock (@7:17pm)
It’s as sure as the moon rising when the sun goes down.
@msean
You just stop placing your preferences when they run out. For me, I will place all SNP candidates, full stop.
You just stop. No way am I placing Unionist parties.
Davidson wants the best deal for the country ie uk.
In the tories eyes Scotland does not exist. They are devious sod’s willing to sell their granny, sorry granmama.
Scotland 1st.
Davidson tries to show she is negotiating with RUK. SHE HAS NO RIGHT. It is for the majority SNP group in Westminster . It is for the SNP Government at Holyrood.
Valarie @ 7.22
Wow you weren’t kidding that’s quite an article galamcennalath found well worth a read….it’s @ 6.17
Looking very much like game on.
yesindyref2 says:
“So your 2nd preference can NOT be used to prefer your 2nd choice over your 1st.”
Somewhere in north Lanarkshire you put LibDem as your first choice and think Labour are OK as Unionists go, so I’ll put Labour second.
Chances are, your second choice will be elected partly using your 2nd preference. Your first preference went out early.
Legerwood @ 18:38,
crazycat and yesindyref2 pretty much covered your question already. By-elections in STV are somewhat anomalous compared to the full-blown thing.
What happened in N. Ayrshire though is what can happen with second (and third, etc.) preferences. With dropouts they can begin to accumulate for someone other than the initial front runner. Which is why it’s not just essential to get turnout of your own support, but also important to convince supporters of other parties that a win for you is at least reasonably acceptable to them as well.
Robert Graham @ 19:04,
Robert, from the ordinary voter’s perspective, STV is actually dead simple, once you get used to it. You just put down your preferences 1-2-3 for as many as you want. While some of us may pontificate at length about the implications of how an accumulation of voters’ choices work out, it doesn’t affect most people going to the polls. The overall consequence is as galamcennalath @ 19:04 wrote. It generally maximises acceptability of the result for the greatest number of voters.
STV avoids the gross anomalies with FTFP where you can get councils that are permanent fiefdoms of one party elected on a minority vote, and everyone else’s viewpoint is basically represented by a wastebasket.
Bedtime reading: link to wp.me
Blair macdougell being as classy as ever calling me “a sad wee coward” on twitter. No need for that is there.
@ Bob Mack at 7:18pm …… Indyref2.
Don’t forget Bob that if Westminster tries to block Indyref2 we can appeal to the United Nations.
Dissolving the Scottish Parliament? I would LOVE to see them try. The sovereign people of Scotland were remarkably patient and civilised in the lead up to / during Indyref1 but I think they’d find that if they attempted to remove one brick (or stick) they’d see another side to us. A case of hell hath no fury like a Nation scorned.
I’m still trying to catch up with the details of disMay’s latest pronouncements, but has she now indicated a definite intention to invoke Art.50 by next spring, yet also point-blank refused to concede an indyref2? (Probably rightly reckoning that the Union will lose.)
Are we then heading for a Spanish-style standoff, with legal and constitutional knobs on?
Or… just a naughty thought… could she ultimately be persuadable that jettisoning Scotland and all its associated constitutional aggravations would in the end be a price worth paying for a quick-and-clean rUK Brexit? Two birds with one stone, so to speak?
Would it not be very interesting [hint: Rev Stu] to conduct a poll of English & Welsh voters right now, asking them that if the price of Brexit were also the loss of Scotland, would that be acceptable to them or not? Lose the EU and also lose Scotland, yes or no…?
Katy Grant, resident bbc scotchshire hack says over a million Scots wanted out of the EU. We must listen to them.
What stats say this?
How many Welsh in Scotland voted out?
How many Irish in Scotland voted out?
How many English in Scotland voted out?
= How many Scots?
Mind you 63% of the electorate in Scotland voted to remain. Are the people sovereign or not?
Bob Mack says at 7:04 pm
Aye, I agree re the Tories fundraising early comment.
Combine that with Corbyn saying prepare for an early election (Westminster leaks like a sieve), so it might be on the cards to put the kibosh on Brexit.
I posted on a previous link (and hoped R Peffers might comment on the viability) that to cover Scotland’s arse regarding Brexit:
1. If Scotland’s people are sovereign
2. And the EU Referendum was not advisory
3. Where Scotland’s people voted 62% to 38% to stay full members of the EU
4. And if Westminster cannot over rule an Act passed by the Scottish Parliament
5. If Scots Gov. were to raise a Bill to ratify the result of the EU Ref. in Scotland to maintain full EU membership status for Scotland (all opposition Parties say they want to be in both Unions so should support this) and the bill should pass into law as an Act of Parliament
6. Then if Westminster were to try to take Scotland out of the EU despite this Act being law in Scotland the UN would have to support Scotland (even if this meant UDI in a worst case sh*t or bust scenario)
Think it is time for Derek Mackay in his role as Cabinet Secretary for Finance and THE CONSTITUTION to get on the case.
Naw, don’t let’s fool oorsels. This Brexit thing is gonna happen, in England anyway.
But oh, to be a fly on the wall in Whitehall right now, especially in the Ministry for Exit (prop. D. Davis). Talk about an omnishambles inside a vacuum! Oh, Ianucci, where is “In the Thick of It” when you really need it? (Still, I don’t suppose the Better Together Corporation would possibly ever screen anything like that now anyway.)
Jockanes Wind Talker @ 9.55
While I no exactly the expert Robert Peffers is I can take a stab at a few of your questions.
1 Aye the Scottish People are Sovereign, but for Westminster it’s the thing they don’t like to talk about so much, so when you listen to them it’s clear most of them don’t really understand it themselves.
Reece Mogg seems to,Michael Forsythe definitely dose and Thatcher had quite a good grasp as well.
Thank goodness for Joanna Cherry she not only knows her stuff but can articulate it,she is razor sharp on it.
2.The ref was only legally advisory,but if Westminster follows what they call the Dicean model ……… which they have been doing for at least the past century……then – wont bore you with the details – they will be kind of obliged to act on it,so therefore Westminster will go ahead as if the result was binding.
3.Yes they did didn’t they…..oops.
4.Im afraid that Westminster has only agreed that they won’t NORMALLY overrule the Scottish parliament.
That’s what the stooshie was about last year,when Mundell was saying it will be ok he can’t imagine a scenario where that would ever be an issue.
I would bet the house that they will claim Brexit isn’t Normal so they have indeed reserved the right to override Holyrood
5 & 6.Are both dependent not on can the Scottish Government do this but dose it have the power to enforce the result by makin it Law.
Which brings us right back to point one,and how do we get our Soverenty issue sorted.
I’m sure there are many people working on it but as it ever was there are just as many keepin it on the back burner hoping never to have an answer given.
Unfortunately for them Brexit will most likely force the issue to be resolved
.
As for UDI… please don’t think of supporting that option my friend,we are a very long way Thankfully from that route,and as I hope you can see from being here on Wings we have much much better choices to take.
@ Liz at 4:54pm
Thanks Liz, but as I understand the nature of the popular sovereignty held by the people, it is not for the Scottish parliament to declare its allegiance to a monarch, even a Scottish monarch, but rather it is the monarch who should be swearing an oath of loyalty to the sovereign people of Scotland.
Liz g says at 11:19 pm
Thanks Liz.
I’m not a supporter of UDI and believe we will get our independence without going down that route, but:
As I said in my post UDI is a worst case (sh*t or bust scenario) which we hopefully won’t need to pursue
Charles II was only crowned king of Scots after he was forced to sign the Covenant, or no deal! He turned out to be another dud but!