Jim Murphy Debate Drinking Bingo!
Posted on
April 07, 2015 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
RULES:
One box: take a drink
Horizontal line: finish drink
Vertical line: finish bottle
Complete card: sing sectarian songs until arrested
I’m gonna take a totally different approach and ask the fundimental question … why did this debate happen at all?
There are no Scottish LibDem, Labour or Conservative parties. They do not exist. These people are Unionists and have only UK level parties everything else (as we so often discuss) are just local accounting entities.
As Unionists, they don’t see Scotland as a nation or country, to them it is a region.
Nicola Sturgeon demeaned herself and her office by appearing with these regional office staff. They are NOT leaders of anything of consequence.
Holyrood 2016 will be different, there these regional Unionist officers will have a ‘local’ case to put. This is a WM election, only policies for WM at a UK level should be discussed. And, the right people to debate are party leaders.
Add to that, and the potential for stitch up and manipulation at a Scottish level, and it should have never happened.
There is, I think, a separate LibDem party in Scotland but, as you say, no Labour or Conservative ones.
The Greens in Scotland are also separate and, in my humble opinion, it would have better for their English counterparts if Patrick Harvie had been their representative in the 7 headed debate.
Aberdeen/shire has returned Alex Salmond to Westminster/Holyrood for years. The NE is a SNP stronghold, with strong SNP support.
Oil Co. Bosses supporting NO are like turkeys voting for Christmas. BP are the worst company in commercial history. UK Health and Safety laws are not enforced with no Official Inquiries Helicopters are falling from the sky. Westminster are getting away with murder. Bond sold out in 2011 for £250Million. Families have not been properly compensated. Robert Goodwill UK Transport minister and Tricia Hayes Civil servant stated their was no need for any Inquiry. The CAA colludes with Westminster and protects Helicopter Companies from prosecution.
Watched Newsnight from last night lots of i’ve always voted labour and will never change JEEBUS feckin help us what is wrong with people “its shite and always gonna be shite so vote Labour” FFS
The Unionist ‘leaders’ in Scotland are all list MSP’s or not elected. Patrick Harvie not included because he supports Independence. It might have been more balanced. The ‘debate’ was a farce. STV shareholders controlled the ‘debate’.
@galamcennalath
“I’m gonna take a totally different approach and ask the fundimental question … why did this debate happen at all?
There are no Scottish LibDem, Labour or Conservative parties. They do not exist. These people are Unionists and have only UK level parties everything else (as we so often discuss) are just local accounting entities”
but it is in our power to remove the unionists and remove any ability for the bbc and stv to gerrymander audiences, party representatives and even commentators on any of their programs?
@ BIll McLean, very quick wiki summary below. Mind Cameron refused the third devo-max option and there was nothing anyone in Holyrood could do about it. Devo max would have won, if all Scots polls are right.
Both Edinburgh agreements are essentially like contracts that would hold up in court. As we know there is no UK constitution, so it’s all made up on the hoof, with the Supreme Court final arbiter. If you remember your contract law, there is no contract without both sides agreeing to said contract. Cameron or not so future PM Milliband can dissolve Holyrood and again, there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. Democracy UKOK style.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Bugger-“audience was based on the last GE” thought a week was a long time in politics never mind 5 years.
Hasn’t Stu already proven somewhere on here that the Holy Loch base was full of private contractors who aren’t based there and don’t spend much money to the area either?
I’m sure I read that somewhere. I thought it was here.
Carol – I’m also from Edinburgh
But the comments about Edinburgh should not be taken personally.
At least I’m not taking them personally
I was disgusted that my home town voted No in the referendum, but was hardly surprised
STV chose Edinburgh for one reason only and that it was and is a No city, so knew they would be able to achieve the dire mix of audience that they got
I watched last night and was dismayed at seeing what, looked like an outing of a white only Golf and / or bowling club.
But if you truly support the cause of independence, dont be put off by a few on here, after all they cant all come from Edinburgh 😉
I tried to watch the debate on my computer but Jim Murphy broke the STV Player.
It started buffering… buffering… buffering, and always when Jim Murphy was on. His endless, vacuous, dishonest waffle must’ve somehow jammed the STV Player. I gave up after the third time.
Carol, I’m getting the Edinburgh train in half an hour, we could meet for a coffee at Jenners?
PS Bring your purse!
galamcennalath,
You raise a valid question, about why do these ‘Scottish’ debates happen, for a Westminster election. The simple answer is that in the past, when the likes of the SNP and greens were locked out of UK wide debates, these diddy ‘Scottishy’ debates were used by broadcasters as a kind of cover for their undemocratic blocking of the smaller parties UK wide. They would glibly say – ‘oh, but you Scots get your own debates, snigger, snigger’.
This locking out of the likes of the SNP from UK coverage (even their party conferences get joke ‘Scotland only’ coverage) explains why people in England were so excited when they finally got to see just how good Nicola Sturgeon is, compared to the grey suit bullingdon boys club of the red and blue tories at Westminster.
Now that we have had the seven leader UK debate, these debates in Scotland, to me at least, seem utterly pointless. They are a proverbial joke – as evidenced by the partisan selection of the audience last night, and the frankly absurd, irrelevant questions.
The one tonight will likely be just as absurd, and, given it is run by the BBC, we can of course expect a wholly pro unionist anti SNP audience, with silly questions completely unrelated to a Westminster election.
This debate happened because, as far as I’m aware, you don’t actually have to be a Westminster MP to be either PM or Deputy PM. Whilst it might be impractical due to the distance involved Sturgeon could be either.
TOURISTS..COME TO ARGYLL & BUTE..
EXPLORE ITS..NUKES AND CRANNIES.. haha! 🙂
I think that both Clegg and Crighton at the Daily Record calling it a draw between Nicola and Jim, is a clear indication that Nicola won.
Interestingly enough, they both picked up on a point I have been making about how nervous Jim Murphy looked.
This isn’t something that I’ve ever saw with Murphy before, and when you look back just a few months ago, at the beginning of his stint as leader, he was positively oozing confidence, telling everyone who would listen that Labour wasn’t going to lose any seats and may even gain one or two!
His reasoning was simple, Labour had been ‘a bit shit’ (can’t remember if he was the one who used that phrase) As he pointed the finger at Johann Lamont.
He clearly believed this was the case, and political watchers will remember that Jim had a car crash interview right at the beginning of the indy ref, when he was asked if Johann was a good leader and found it hard to say so.
So Jim and his background staff, thought it was Johanns leadership that was the problem and when he used his powerful communication skills (stop laughing at the back) and his contacts in Scotland’s joke of a MSM ( stop growling at the back) the populace would see the light, and come running back to the Labour Party with cap in hand and shoulders slumped, apologising for ever doubting the Socialist credentials of Jim Murphy, Maggie Curran, Douglas Alexander et all.
Well it isn’t happening for Jim and the Scottish Labour Party, because they have become toxic in Scotland, and no matter how good the snake oil salesmen Jim Murphy, and his friends at the MSM are, getting people to swallow toxic material, is simply a task too far.
Macca73,
You are right regarding Trident, see here;
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Quote “We know that it costs Scotland £163 million in running costs each and every year. We also know that only 520 civilian jobs at Faslane and Coulport (formally and collectively called Her Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde) near Helensburgh are directly dependent on Trident, despite claims by various Labour politicians that the system supports up to 22,000 jobs.
Of those 520 jobs, 159 are employed by the MoD and 361 by contractors Babcock Marine and Lockheed Martin. The remaining jobs cited by the No campaign are based on the military and security personnel present on the base for standard duties, but even here it’s estimated that 85% of base personnel do not live locally but travel south when not on duty, thereby contributing little to the local economy.”
I find people to be rather strange sometimes. Today we have a great example of this strangeness. BBC Radio Scotland raising a big Hoo Ha over the possible disturbance of a nesting Osprey pair at the new site of Tea in the Park.
This is a Scotland we are speaking about. A Scotland that is witnessing the Establishment sanctioning people from their only income on the slightest pretext and thus children being fed by food banks. Yet I see no such high levels of outrage about the starved children as is now being shown by these outraged Osprey supporting people.
Now, I’m not by any means against Ospreys, but facts are available of USA Ospreys nesting on telegraph poles by USA superhighways and other traffic rich places. It seems they are either a quite different species, or Ospreys are not nearly so shy as these outraged people would have us believe.
Priorities and order comes to mind.
@ caz-m (9.29am).
Thanks for that post.
Have you ever noticed that the question of bringing the railways back into public ownership (No12 on your list) regularly arises.
But there is something far more important and valuable than anything else, including independence, which rarely ever gets a mention. More valuable than oil or precious metals.
WATER
This must be taken and protected from the hands of privatisation.
It’s THE most valuable asset our planet has.
Without it – all life is extinct.
‘The chronic gap between the incomes of the richest and poorest citizens in seen as the risk that is most likely to cause serious damage globally in the coming decade’ World Economics Forum 2014 (climate change comes second)
The Equality Trust in 2014 calculated that an extra 1.75 million living-wage jobs (enough for all the unemployed young people in the UK)could have been created if the richest 100 people in Britain had not seen their wealth increase by £25 billion.
A tiny elite hovering up the monies that could make a tangible difference to the UKs young people whose income between 2008-2012 has fallen by 3% year on year.
Why isn’t WM talking about that? – a global issue right on their doorstep-but let’s not forget we do not live in a ‘something for nothing’ culture- except many at WM are trust babies and have been getting something for nothing all their lives.
Maybe they could look to Denmark where there is more money available to help people into work because the rich take less.
The WM cartel continues to be in favour of austerity measures and workhouse conditions reminiscent of the Poor Law- unpaid labour(WM government in danger of breaking international laws on slavery)food handouts, the masses consigned to the charitable institutes of the poor-whilst WM work all the harder for the HNWI, giving 110% to the 1%.
Fortunately there is an alternative to this failed neoliberal agenda and we can collectively articulate this in May.
Something has bothered me for the past 2 years and it was reinforced last night,can anyone explain how and why Willie Rennie has attained his position cos he ain’t no politician.
Joemcg
The rest are even worse?
Younger wingers probably won’t remember GBH, the drama series by Alan Bleasedale on corruption in Labour in power in Liverpool in the 1980s where the wonderful Robert Lindsay played the increasingly demented leader of the council gradually adding twitches and stammers making the character more and more of a comical figure as these things undermined his gravitas increasingly.
Murphy is starting to look more and more like him.
Who says life doesn’t imitate art?
You know what? I’ve never, ever won at Bingo before!! That was easy!!
Cag-does-thinking says:@10.25am
Murphy is starting to look more and more like him.
Who says life doesn’t imitate art?
Yes indeed,
I well remember GBH a bloody brilliant TV drama the kind people (bar a few folk) are too feart to make anymore.
Murphy is twitching and stammering because like Lyndsey’s character he knows the game is up..
I was watching Murphy last night and I was struck by how much he looks like the penguin in Gotham City no offence penguin
Bugger (the Panda) wrote:
“The Greens in Scotland are also separate and, in my humble opinion, it would have been better for their English counterparts if Patrick Harvie had been their representative in the 7 headed debate.”
I agree, 100%.
@Macca73 says: 8 April, 2015 at 10:07 am:
” … I’m sure I read that somewhere. I thought it was here.”
You may have read it here but the original information came from the Government due to a Scottish CND FOI request.
You can read the information here : –
link to nuclearinfo.org.
Just to clarify – the Clyde Base, like every other naval base, mainly employes workers to do the basic work of maintaining the base itself and not just any particular type of vessel.
As the SG’s plans is to retain the base as the Scottish main naval base this class of workers numbers would probably vastly increase. There are in fact only 520 jobs reliant upon Trident and most of them are not even located in the base but by contractors based elsewhere.
Heedtracker – thanks again. Since there is no British constitution and since it would appear that one of the conditions of the referendum may well have been broken wouldn’t even the suspicion of breach be enough to justify a reconvened referendum. By the way I’m not involved with the law in any way – in fact I do my best to avoid any part of it!
Carol: I really don’t know what is to be gained by the continual snide comments against Edinburgh
We could always hide under the table when people express incredulity at the vote.
“Your capital city didn’t want Scotland’s sovereignty returned? A small village somewhere, a town on the edges of Scotland, yes, but your capital city? What does that tell the world?”
Spanish TV producer.
PS: Edinburgh was the centre of the Enlightenment. Where is it now, the Dark Ages?
Carol @9:27
+1 again – we need to get a room 😉
I read the site as there are many excellent and sourced articles giving a different perspective than available in the MSM but like you despair the mindset of a few.
The inability of some here to see that it’s their near constant invective that feeds into the MSM “evil cybernats” narrative and is beyond ironic at times. This is just not helpful to the cause independence IMHO.
If I was as paranoid and chippy as some I’d argue that they are actually MI5 agents posting here to feed into and maintain that narrative. And what a good job they are doing;)
@Robert Louis
Many Thanks!!
I knew that it was here somewhere!
So the loss of jobs is minimal and the loss to the economy is minimal too. If you opened what WAS a naval base up to the public as a tourist site then perhaps you’d get more money and jobs going that way!
Just make sure it’s safe first!
Stoker Re: Water.
In the years, decades AND centuries to come, water will be Scotland’s Ace card and it’s free. It also creates electricity for exporting.
We really do stay in a blessed country.
I just wish more Scots realised we don’t need London to look after our natural assets. We have proven that we can do a far better job of it ourselves.
Vote YES Sept 2014.
(Oh shit that one is away, OK Vote YES next time.)
I think it was a mistake to put NS and JM together in the middle of the stage during the debate. The other two were completely side-lined. Ruth did try hard to be relevant and did quite well, passionately selling an unpopular message. Wee Willie, on the other hand, was completely invisible 95% of the time.
It will be interesting what format Auntie comes up with tonight.
Here’s a wee interesting fact for some of you to get yer falsers intae.
Aberdeen, Edinburgh and Glasgow account for 25% of the Scottish electorate.
Out of these 3, Glasgow was the only ‘Yes’ voter.
Have a look at where these televised “debates” are coming from.
And at the same time, couple that with the amount of flying visits these 3 places are getting from various Unionists.
Glasgow City Council are also in the process of breaking up all its current boundaries within its domain and creating some extra
new constituencies, more affluent ones apparently.
It doesn’t take a genius to see what is going on.
It would appear to me that the whole idea is for the Unionists to get a firm grip on our Capital City (Edinburgh), The Second City of The Empire (Glasgow) and our Oil Capital (Aberdeen).
Politically, they are Scotland’s 3 most important cities
Mind you, i could be wrong!
@itsme 9:27
Is that an indirect confession? 😐
The elephant in the room is always the fact that we have not established with many of our people that Scotland is economically viable – with or without oil revenues.
All the other issues are distractions until we do so.
When we do so we win.
It would be useful in this context to stop debating economic figures for Scotland that are founded on a Scottish economy trapped in a bankrupted UK economy.
We don’t seek independence to do things the same
The figures we find ourselves debating are irrelevant in a context of an independent Scotland with an entirely different economic prospect and ambition
Edinburgh
It is a very diverse city ,wealthy,Ann street,to poorer Craigmillar,Muirhouse.
current polling,Edinburgh to become SNP
I thought audience listened to nicola,only time she got jeered was not ruling out referendum 2016(to be fair–alex and Nicola DID call it once in a generation vote)
I’m going to disagree with Craig Murray calling it a Unionist Fit Up
Edinburgh did vote NO
If Edinburgh switches to SNP it tells me this,The Scottish electorite think the Vow,smith Commision is,to be kind,pish
A Federal Union(home rule) by default next option
SNP to control westminster on issues that concern Scotland
I think NO voters have done the unexpected,not gone away hide in a cave
Like the YES voters moved the argument on
Westminster be very afraid
Dave McEwan Hill
Agreed.
Here is a thought on just how bankrupt the UK is.
The words million billion and trillion have no meaning for many – it’s just a big number. And the national debt is a terrifyingly big big number.
To look at it another way if we express million, billion etc in seconds you get this:
1 million = 12 days
1 billion = 32 years
UK national debt = 47,000 years and growing
gulp
Bookie: to be fair–alex and Nicola DID call it once in a generation vote
Salmond’s actual words repeated a few times, now and then edited to present a differing interpretation:
“Once in a generation, but that is my personal opinion not that of the government.”
House
itsme, 10.40 am, I’m fascinated with your take on Wings btl comments.
You ‘despair the mindset of a few’. If indeed it is ‘a few’ why not just ignore those that you despair of?
As your opening statement: “I read the site as there are many excellent and sourced articles giving a different perspective than available in the MSM…” conveys the positive and accurate reality, why bother with the ‘few’ that you ‘despair’ of?
Giving oxygen to those that rile us is what fuels disharmony. So it’s within our gift to maintain the harmony on Wings by not feeding into the narrative of those we find ‘difficult’ to deal with. In fact we become part of that problem when we start critiquing others from the sidelines, which comes over as ‘sniping’ and judgemental.
I would recommend focusing on those comments that are dealing with the subject at hand atl and being part of the solution. Starved of oxygen; those who may or not be ‘at it’ will be easier to spot by everyone.
More importantly the Rev is the ultimate arbiter in all things btl, so no need to police the btl for him.
K1
Fair point well put. Your right.
Thanks K1
@itsme (11:26 am)
Why do you think the debt is a problem? Serious question and I would honestly like a considered answer.
Thought I’d seen Jims suit somewhere else.
link to upload.wikimedia.org
Fiona
I don’t think debt per say is a problem.
It’s the size of the debt and more importantly the cost of servicing that debt that is, and will continue to be, a major problem.
Just an after thought…is the word ‘chippy’ not a particularly ‘anglocentric worldview descriptor’ of the Scots, by the msm?
Personally I’ve never heard it used in any other context, by anyone that I actually know who lives here. But I have heard it second hand from friends who have relatives down south who are completely tuned into and enthralled by the msm’s narrative.
Scots don’t refer to themselves as ‘chippy’.
We go tae the chippy, fur chips!
@itsme
Why is the size of the debt a problem? Why is the cost of servicing it a problem?
Fiona
Because the numbers involved are so gigantic?
K1 wrote:
“Scots don’t refer to themselves as ‘chippy’.”
“We go tae the chippy, fur chips!”
Or one may be a ‘chippy’ to trade.
I’ve heard Lundaners, like Jamie Oliver, refer to being ‘Chipper’
K1: We go tae the chippy, fur chips!
I’m multi-tasking here – writing a short biography on a half-forgotten portrait painter for a National Portrait Gallery exhibition, doing accounts, and enjoying your comments, especially that one! 🙂
Audience very cleverly selected by STV to reflect British values – Edinburgh seriously ??
Hope yes in audience will boo n sneer crap british comments in future and stop being so polite.
We also need someone to challenge Brits on interupting, sneering and talking over people; Happende with A Salmond and now Nicola – clever tactic by superior fairplay (?)Brits in audience.
Also Bernard Ponsonby blots copy book again by becoming the show – too clever by half. Ref comment & recurrence poor. Very establishment and calculated for effect except its not part of general election issue – thought better of him. Poor very poor
Alternatively…
link to img1.wikia.nocookie.net
Gives a link to a whole spiel about the temptations of Going over to the Dark side as being similar to the attraction of another conservative led government.
This is obviously the wrong Murphy…
link to milesteves.com
I am also from Edinburgh and I have been mixing with these pages for so long that it has taken me a while to realise what was going on. I think this set up by STV et al is probably a very big own goal.
This was an Edinburgh theatre audience. It does not hector and bully performers but believes in fair play. And it listens and watches very carefully every nuance of the performance. There is polite applause for participants for turning up and doing their bit, but the real judgement of the whole performance is at the end with stomping ovations for those who deserve it.
Most of this section of Edinburgh society was a very difficult section to persuade during the referendum as independence was very ‘out there’ for them. They would not argue and discuss. Disagreement is very bad, we are fine as we are, change subject and move on.
However the subject has not gone away, even the English are starting to take notice, and according to the polls more and more are changing to the SNP. But they do not know why because they cannot hear the SNP voice on TV, Radio 4 or in the papers. They are not stupid so are not taken in by the bias propaganda. They were invited and they came to engage.
What they found were JM and RD squabbling and in JM’s case treating them as fools, while WR told them he could feel their pain! JM’s body language towards Nicola would not go unnoticed.
Then there was Nicola who was outnumbered, obviously set up (not fair play) and who told the truth, whether they liked that truth or not. This was shown in the encounter with the man who was demanding why there should be another referendum and pushed her on it. She answered truthfully that they would respond to the democratic will of the people if they voted for them when it was part of their Scottish election manifesto. The man did not shake his head at her or dismiss her, but nodded in acknowledgement and respect for an honest answer and the democratic process, and shut up.
The respect for honesty and decorum under duress was expressed at the end of the debate. They may not have been converted immediately but it will have made them think and will colour everything they hear from now on. I think the true tipping point is not very far away now.
Aye Stoker, I’m aware of the ‘chipper’ term from Oliver, one of his more memorable overused words when describing anything that he felt was grand, even himself’.
And yes, ‘chippy’ to trade.
But the use I’m referring to is specifically a descriptor that I have only heard when describing the Scots in ‘temperamental’ terms. Mainly emanating from an anglocentric perspective.
I find it quite a pejorative term masel’, in this usage. As it has a smack of the ‘chip on the shoulder’ inference about it (that may just be me 🙂 ). Also a touch of the characterisation of us being ‘angry’ without quite stating it directly.
May as well just call us what they are inferring: ‘Bunch of angry bastards’…that would be more direct and easier to challenge the ‘tarring’. 🙂
But, I would never refer to myself as ‘chippy’. I think I am saying it’s not a term that, in general, Scots use to describe themselves in temperamental terms?
Luigi 10.50,
“Auntie” is a term of endearment wholly inappropriate when describing their state broadcaster.I try to avoid using it.Just saying…
Glad to be providing some form of mirth in these mirthless times Grouse, even wee distractions are a boon 🙂
K1
Goodness me, by jove, I say old chap.
I take your point – agree and thank you and now you troll me?
Aye the chippy…. but fritters fur me pal.
Erm…’troll you’? Think you may have to actually read my comments…in relation to ‘chippy’ which is what I presume you are referring to?
I start with ‘Just an after thought’ and make it pretty clear that it’s ‘conversational’ mode.
The fact that I use a word that you used as a starting point to my own musings, has little to do with you.
I elaborate further in response to another commenter. I think I make it quite clear where I am coming from.
Don’t ‘overthink’ this itsme, it truly wasn’t about ‘you’.
It wiz actually ‘aboutme’ 😉
Oops…forgot to acknowledge your earlier response…thank you 🙂
K1
Ok – must be me “over-thinking” or being er, chippy 😉
Cool itsme…d’ya mind a wee bit mare exploration… now that we are on the subject?
As you did certainly use the word in the manner that I have described: “If I was as paranoid and chippy as some…”
Do you agree with me that it’s not a word that is typically used by Scots to describe themselves…and in this instance to typically describe other Scots thus?
My point is that it is an ‘anglocentric’ descriptor that paints the ‘Scot’s’ temperament as ‘chippy’ in a pejorative sense.
This is what I feel itsme. It could just be me. You used the word, and so maybe for you this is not the case?
Have you picked this word up in the msm? Or have you always used that term when admonishing others when you feel they are opinionated/angry in some way?
Genuinely curious. (Not in a ‘chippy’ way mind 🙂 )
Actually Stoker, I think when I stayed in Dundee (many moons) I recall the chippy was called the ‘chipper’ there? Any Dundonians please correct me if I’m wrong on this. 🙂
It’s just a word. Who’s “over-thinking” now 😉
The meaning was as in chip on the shoulder.
As in the view, rightly or wrongly, that that there is a narrative that seeks to demonize the “evil cybernats” as paranoid and chippy – as well as many other things. This narrative exist and invective that plays into that narrative is not helpful to the goal of persuading undecided/soft no voters into voting for independence.
Independence will never be achieved until those voters can be persuaded.
Hmm…yi didnae answer any of ma points itsme 🙁
Anyway. Have a good evening. 🙂
K1
You’re right about chippers in Dundee, and as any civilized human being knows, it’s vinegar no sauce.
Saying that, sauce isn’t inedible, even if the chips are sometimes. 🙂
I do wish some folks here would realise that there really are people who wish to use divide and rule tactics against the independence movement.
A classic example is this Edinburgh V. Glasgow pish, typically expressed in couched language as ‘Glasgow good -voted YES, Edinburgh rich snobby bad- voted NO’. It is pure unadulterated sh*te.
Of course there are parts of Edinburgh which voted strongly NO, but then there are parts of Glasgow which would never in a million years vote YES. So what?
Fact is just as Edinburgh has morningside, Craiglockart and Stockbridge, so equally, Glasogw has its own similar areas. It doesn’t mean Edinburgh is bad, and it certainly doesn’t mean that the folks in Edinburgh cannot be won over – and I say this as a person who lives in one of the above mentioned parts of Edinburgh.
So folks, please stop falling for these divide and rule tactics – Edinburgh V.Glasgow, old V.Young etc. It is designed to distract and undermine our campaigners.
By the way, anybody in doubt about how strongly some folks in Edinburgh feel about independence, need only take a wee walk down Easter Road or Leith walk, where you will still see many,many YES banners and signs.
Ta Cameron, thought I remembered correctly 🙂
itsme says:
8 April, 2015 at 12:36 pm
Fiona
Because the numbers involved are so gigantic?
But they aren’t.
The debt is not high, historically speaking. See the graph of UK debt from 1692, here
link to ukpublicspending.co.uk
See also the fact that the government can never run out of money to pay debt, since they print it. And the fact that a great deal of what is counted as debt is money “owed” to ourselves, because it is held by the central bank
link to primeeconomics.org
It is true that if you do not have a sovereign currency you can run out of money: but that is not the situation here. It is one reason why an independent Scotland needs a sovereign currency and not CU.
The con is deliberate, because it suits neoliberals to justify austerity in this way. But make no mistake, they are perfectly aware of the situation, for if they were not they could not have bailed out the banks with the money they conjured out of thin air. QE is just printing money by another name. They can do it any time they like to any extent they like: and they do when their pals in the banks are in trouble (though not when their citizens are hungry)
The debt and deficit mantra is a complete artifice, and it should be ignored in its entirety. What is needed is a completely different approach to the economy, one which does not start from this absurd premise that it operates like a household budget
In particular we should be very aware that the plan, overt and perfectly plain, is to make every ordinary person a debt slave to the elite: OBR’s projection for private debt is not exactly a secret since they publish it. That is the aim and that is what the focus on public debt is designed to distract from
Just back from a day in Edinburgh, an awful lot of beggars about if I may say so without anybody taking the huff. As Robert says there are indeed quite a lot of YES windows, so hope springs eternal. 🙂
Debt is £1.5trillion. Assets are £7.5trillion.
The National Debt is what everyone owes. Mortgages. Personal loans, car loans, business loans, commercial loans etc Scotland would keep on paying it’s debt. The rest of the UK would keep on paying it’s debt. UK pensions/welfare benefits are paid by taxpayers in Scotland Scotland would need time to build up a Navy/Army. It would have to be shared for a while. Full Fiscal autonomy.
Jim said he wouldn’t want Trident moved to the North of England . Now why the North of England why not dredge the Thames and stick it up the arse of the Palace of Westminster.
Hi Robert Louis.
“Divide and rule”.
Like DFC vs DUFC. Like Aberdeen FC vs Inverurie Loco Works. Like Raith Rovers vs Cowdenbeath. And, dropping the standards a tad, Celtic vs Rangers or Falkirk vs Airdrie.
Robert Louis It doesn’t mean Edinburgh is bad, and it certainly doesn’t mean that the folks in Edinburgh cannot be won over
There’s nothing like stating the obvious.
It is near impossible to ‘win over’ people who laugh at the whole idea of Scotland running its own affairs.
Rather than castigate the passion of others for their supposed ‘divide and rule’ attitude, try calculating how many Embra folk require to be ‘won over’ and then tell us what category of class they are in, and what power they exert over people and institutions.