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If this were only cleared away

Posted on March 02, 2019 by

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    353 to “If this were only cleared away”

    1. Fergus Green says:

      Time to slay the Jabberwock:

      ‘oh frabjous day caloo calay
      He chortled in his joy’

    2. Robert Louis says:

      Sadly, it will take a lot more than seven maids with seven mops to wash those two wastrels away.

      The likes of Mundell likely know that their are no other jobs for talentless individuals, where it is possible to learn over 150k per year, whilst effectively doing nothing but betray your own country. That is also why the thickest people on planet earth also pop up saying any old rubbish for the Labour party in Scotland. James Kelly MSP, for example, will also likely know that outside of being a labour MSP (and earning over 70k per year), he might well be filling shelves at Aldi.

      That is why Labour MSPs regularly say things they know to be wholly untrue and, frankly, stupid. It is about their own self interest. They say what London tells them to say. The political gravy train. If you had zero talent, were thick as mince and no skills, wouldn’t you?

      You might call it ‘the Margaret Curran’ syndrome’.

      Mundell and his cabal of craven Tory weasels will, in my opinion, say and do anything, so long as he pockets his 150k salary plus expenses, plus free flights to London for him and his family, subsidised food and drink, PLUS (I do not doubt) his promised ermine robes and free 300 pounds a day for the rest of his life). These are the REAL enemies of Scotland.

      For London’s gold they are bought and sold. Principles have nothing to do with it.

    3. Hamish100 says:

      Cruel! but spot on!

    4. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Cabbages indeed!

    5. sassenach says:

      Best depiction of my own (ouch) local MP that I’ve seen.
      Great work, Chris.
      He’s befuddled, and that’s being kind to the hapless wee soul.

    6. Marie Clark says:

      Ouch! That’s a belter Chris, well done. They say the truth hurts don’t they.

    7. cearc says:

      Scrubs up well, doesn’t he?

    8. ronnie anderson says:

      Hey didle didle the Walrus speak’s in riddle , the man wie the bag is ah right slag an baith ur oota tune they might as weil be howling at the moon .

    9. X_Sticks says:

      Haha. they do make a wonderful couple, eh? Quality ‘toon as always Chris.

      Let’s just hope their dreams of a tory dictatorship don’t come to fruition.

      Looking forward to seeing the Wings gang today. Hope to get there about 4ish.

    10. Grouse Beater says:

      Oh, I love the reference to the Walrus and the Carpenter, Chris. Neat. I hope we are not the oysters, for ‘they’d eaten ever one.’ Beautifully composed cartoon, too.

      Your essential weekend reading:

      ‘Chagos Shows Us the Way’:
      ‘A Very English Parliament’:

    11. yesindyref2 says:

      A right couple of slithy toves.

    12. wull2 says:

      It is far to cleaver for me, I prefer the cartons where in don’t have to think very hard on a Saturday morning.

    13. galamcennalath says:

      After a pause, Alice began, “Well! They were both very unpleasant characters!”

    14. MajorBloodnok says:


      UK Government agrees out of court settlement with the Jumblies for awarding sieve contract to Owl & the Pussy Cat Holdings Plc without following proper procurement processes (some honey, and plenty of money, wrapped up in a five pound note).

    15. Golfnut says:

      Margaret Thatchers handbag I presume.

    16. Kangaroo says:

      Sorry this is OT so early but nearly time for my zzzz as I have been rather busy

      @ yesindyref2

      Since you are a Defence buff this may interest you

      North Korea

      Viewer rating PG

    17. Kangaroo says:

      A choice cartoon Chris. You are a star.

    18. frogesque says:

      When does a wet dream end with the waking realisation you are drowning?

    19. Valerie says:

      Ross Thomson is a tool.

    20. jfngw says:


      Rumour has it he is something of a collector, just can’t keep his hands off them.

    21. Macart says:

      And not a redeeming quality between them.

      On either side of the looking glass.

    22. 27 days before we are all `through the looking glass`,

      “But I don’t want to go among mad people,”

      i doubt even Lewis Carroll could make up characters like,


    23. starlaw says:

      heading for the Mad Hatters Tea Party.

    24. Morgatron says:

      Marvellous cartoon Chris, butt I wonder where that thumb of Thomsons going? Walrus Mundell looks well eager and receptive ????.Both are Tweedledumbers.

    25. Movy says:

      Where’s the Red Queen with her executioner when you need her (figuratively I hasten to add)? Great cartoon. Love it.

    26. Breeks says:

      Gonna go a bit deep here, but I once saw a program about horse whispering. It wasn’t your cliched mumbo jumbo about supernatural powers, but it was pretty profound all the same.

      I remember one segment of the program recalled the horse whisperer having an epiphany, because when giving talks and lectures about his horse whispering, he noticed there were often various women in his audience who appeared distressed to a degree, and often moved to tears. To cut a long story short, these women were listening to the mechanisms and techniques used to control the responses of a horse, but recognised many uncomfortable parallels with their own subjugation and control in an abusive relationship.

      The gist of the actual horse whispering had it origins in the First American culture, who had observed the behaviour of wild horses, and the way the stallion could hold together a herd of 50+ horses. It wasn’t just the way he asserted dominance, but created within his “harem” a strong desire or need to stay part of the herd.

      The Stallion would chase down a particular mare for many miles, never letting it rest, feed, or drink, and keep stressing the mare until she was exhausted, but then the stallion would change its behaviour, show kindness and compassion, which seemed to amplified in the mind of the exhausted mare, which was so very relieved by the pause in stressful treatment. The process would then start all over again.

      Next thing you know, the mare was submissive to the Stallion, actually started to follow the Stallion, and began to follow its lead when to rest, feed and drink etc. Something had changed inside the mare’s head.

      There is something physiological in the horse whispering… it is actual behaviour control which uses stresses and relaxations, positive inducements and negative consequences applied to a mind that has been already prepared and made receptive to the conditioning.

      The women in the audience who were bursting into tears where recognising the way their own behaviour had been controlled by their abusive partners stressing them out, being unpredictable, and frankly just wearing them down to demure subservience just to avoid the anxiety of confrontation. They put up with the shite because they’d convinced themselves there was no escape, then kidded on they were happy to fool themselves.

      People often cite the Walrus and the Carpenter as an allegory of competing religions consuming the souls of the niaive believers. Maybe it is, I don’t know. But for me, it’s all about behaviour control. It is Oyster whispering in action.

      The relevance? It’s difficult to articulate. Many of our fellow Scots are indoctrinated in their thinking. For a start, they’re not actually thinking at all. The constant denigration of Scotland, the belittling, the abuses and ridicule of our culture, the rewriting of our history, the disrespect… we are predisposed to anxiety. We are “discouraged” from feeling good about ourselves, and our self confidence is jittery at best. But then we have terribly “British” sweeteners, the occasional treat thrown our way, how we’re great soldiers, or “worthy” recipients of ermine robes, promotions, and better jobs. Life is more rewarding if you drink from the British cup and reject the pride you should feel in your country as heresy.

      The British Establishment, it’s powermongers, it’s politictians, it’s civil servants, and of course it’s damned media and BBC are all accomplished in the art of Scots Whispering. It is our behaviours being conditioned and indoctrinated, and I’ll be brutally honest with you, I fear our pro Indy forces, our SNP Government at both Holyrood and Westminster seemed stunned and incapacitated, when they could and should be shaking the United Kingdom to its rotten foundations.

      We are all of us Oysters, and March 29th is our dinner date.

      We must break our conditioning. All we have at our disposal that is immune to this indoctrination is the binary world of Constitutional absolutes… If we the Scots are Sovereign, then NOBODY else is. We MUST weaponise our Constitutional strength and break the Union’s back over Brexit.

      You still want to prevaricate until you know the details? That detail above is the only one you need to know. FIGHT BREXIT and take no prisoners. Scotland stays in Europe by order of the Sovereign people of Scotland. There are 27 days left to do this. What the mutha-f-ck are we waiting for???

    27. Street Andrew says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      2 March, 2019 at 8:46 am
      A right couple of slithy toves.

      Beat me to it 🙂

    28. jfngw says:

      Spotted this in a tweet.

      Exclusive: Internal report by German Parliament warns that #Brexit extension beyond May EU election breaks EU law. Legal action against U.K. only one possible consequence @welt

      Nothing to worry about though, I hear Mrs May has given the brief to Chris Grayling to handle.

    29. jfngw says:

      As the great BBC Comic Relief moves into full swing the government will applaud all those that donate and give awards to some of the celebrity participants.

      This masks the fact the the same government will be ensuring these countries remain poor by supporting the companies that strip their resources for peanuts. If these countries had better control of their own resources maybe they wouldn’t need the fund raisers in the first place.

      It’s the wealthy golden circle, they take the money and the public are encourage to replenish the cash, the wealthy then tap you on the head declaring what good people you are.

    30. john boy says:

      jfngw 10.25am

      And the price a one single smart bomb for one of their fancy jets costs about £100,000.

      Or the £270 Billion pounds they are willing to fork out
      for their Trident nuclear missile programme.

      In an independent Scotland this money will getting spent on the people.

    31. Calum McKay says:

      A pair of laughable buffoons, but sadly, for Scotland, hugely destructive.

      Personally I think Mundell gets away with being in his position and making the pronouncements he makes, because many Scots haven’t a clue who is is, what he does and whom he represents.

    32. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Breeks (10.07) –

      Thought-provoking stuff there, cheers.


    33. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 2 March, 2019 at 10:07 am:

      ” … Gonna go a bit deep here,”

      Don’t you always?

      ” … I fear our pro Indy forces, our SNP Government at both Holyrood and Westminster seemed stunned and incapacitated, when they could and should be shaking the United Kingdom to its rotten foundations.”

      And, eventually we get to the usual, Breeks, not so hidden agenda of, “SNP BAAAAD!”. It sometimes takes a long preamble to get there but it always does.

      In the Breeks comments the villains are always the FM/SG/SNP who, if you were to believe Breeks, are doing nothing because they have been brainwashed by the Westminster Establishment and they don’t know more than Breeks knows and we should all do as Breeks says and not listen to the false FM/SG/SNP.


    34. Petra says:

      Good one Chris. The ”Walrus and the Carpenter” a poem said to epitomise encroachment, entitlement, abuse and exploitation of others to get what they want. Fits the Tories to a tee. Too bad for them the worms … eh oysters … have turned.


      @ Breeks @ 10:07am …..

      BRILLIANT post Breeks and when I read this, and another couple that you posted recently, I just wish that you would consider submitting them to the ”Long Letter” page of the National.

      Really interesting ”stallion” story and clearly highlights the concept of ”gaslighting” that someone on here was asking about recently. Demonstrates succinctly the Scottish / English relationship over the last 300 years or so.

      Breeks: ”The Stallion would chase down a particular mare for many miles, never letting it rest, feed, or drink, and keep stressing the mare until she was exhausted, but then the stallion would change its behaviour, show kindness and compassion, which seemed to amplified in the mind of the exhausted mare, which was so very relieved by the pause in stressful treatment. The process would then start all over again.” …

      Breeks: Next thing you know, the mare was submissive to the Stallion, actually started to follow the Stallion, and began to follow its lead when to rest, feed and drink etc. Something had changed inside the mare’s head.”…


      Breeks: ”To cut a long story short, these women were listening to the mechanisms and techniques used to control the responses of a horse, but recognised many uncomfortable parallels with their own subjugation and control in an abusive relationship.”…..

      Breeks: ”The women in the audience who were bursting into tears where recognising the way their own behaviour had been controlled by their abusive partners stressing them out, being unpredictable, and frankly just wearing them down to demure subservience just to avoid the anxiety of confrontation. They put up with the shite because they’d convinced themselves there was no escape, then kidded on they were happy to fool themselves.”

      I’ve met two women in the last 3 months alone Breeks who have broken down and shed buckets of tears when they finally realised that they had been married to a narcissist and had been ”gaslighted” over many years. In one instance for over forty years. For them it was a watershed moment, an enlightening, and more than anything a relief as it helped them to understand the confusion that they had lived with and the feeling of ”craziness” (them being crazy) that had reigned in their lives. From that day on the ”fog” has lifted, both have left their partners and are now well on their way to recovery.

      Let’s hope that more and more Scots too are beginning to see that they have been gaslighted, waken up and see the light … the truth … and help to rid us of our narcissistic partner. Enable us, Scotland, to ESCAPE.

    35. Lenny Hartley says:

      Jfngw, there is something to worry about in that report in the independent which i cant be arsed archiving and i dont want to get my knickles wrapped, anyways it also says the option for extendion is 21 months which is getting close to Scots Elections, our mandate runs out in may 2021 , maybe they are thinking about kicking the can down the road until then.

    36. defo says:

      A fine rendering of The Governor General Mr Cairns, dare i say he’s looking even more magisterial than real life, if such a thing were possible.
      RT couldnae join hands, and i should know, being a veteran chippy.

      I’m guessing what he’s hiding behind his back, is the handcuff he hasn’t sawn off yet.

      I hope the party is fab guys & gals.

      There’s a game you could play.
      It’s called ‘Spot the Spook’.

      Reporter = 1pt
      MI5 = 2pts
      SIU gimp = 3pts
      Rock = You win!

    37. Fergus Green says:

      let’s not gyre and gimble much longer in the land of the mimsy borogroves. It’s time to outgrabe these mome raths!

    38. Petra says:

      @ Robert Peffers says at 11:23 am … Breeks says: 2 March, 2019 at 10:07 am:” … Gonna go a bit deep here,” ”Don’t you always?” … I fear our pro Indy forces, our SNP Government at both Holyrood and Westminster seemed stunned and incapacitated, when they could and should be shaking the United Kingdom to its rotten foundations.” And, eventually we get to the usual, Breeks, not so hidden agenda of, “SNP BAAAAD!”. It sometimes takes a long preamble to get there but it always does. In the Breeks comments the villains are always the FM/SG/SNP who, if you were to believe Breeks, are doing nothing because they have been brainwashed by the Westminster Establishment and they don’t know more than Breeks knows and we should all do as Breeks says and not listen to the false FM/SG/SNP. Aye! Richt!”

      I think that most people reading that post Robert will take that part with a pinch of salt. SNP politicians have known the truth, the ins and outs of Westminster ploys, from day one hence fighting, not ”stunned and incapacitated”, for our Independence and have been / still are the only politicians shaking the UK ”to its rotten foundations.” Shaking it so much so that Westminster is quaking in its shoes at the very thought of another IndyRef.

    39. Chick McGregor says:

      I fancy one may espy a subtle, stylistic homage to Tenniel there.

      Quite unlike Fluffy, who only does homage to number ten and with no subtlety or style whatsoever.

    40. louis.b.argyll says:

      Breeks, do you really think Cherry, Blackford, etc are blind to establishment strategy.

      Good initial point, irrelivantly ruined by your own finger pointing.

    41. Bob Mack says:

      Considering the English public reaction to Brexit ,I think they have more gullible and edible oysters than they can manage.

      Scotland may provide less edible fare. We know they feel entitlement in Toryland, and shall remain in our indy bed.

    42. chicmac says:

      There could only ever one candidate for the Cheshire moggy. Right century too.

    43. Macart says:

      Posted this a wee while back, but it still seems to fit the current situation.

      I’d imagine this isn’t how most folk wanted to see us approach self government. I’d guess it’s not how the SNP would want it to have happened either. It is however where we are at.

      We’re here because of a decision made a little over four years ago. We have multiples of constitutional crises, as mad and inept a Tory government as has ever been and as ineffectual and divided a Labour party as there has ever been. As for the populations of the UK? Better togetherness doesn’t appear to figure highly these days much.

      Why aren’t we independent already? Why do we have to wait to be saved from UKgov chaos and the ever more intolerant and aggressive UK we find ourselves attached to? Why oh why aren’t the SNP actively promoting or pursuing an openly aggressive independence line?

      Pretty common questions across the indyweb tbs (and all fair questions). But Jings! The explanations.

      They’ve got comfy in the role of devolution. The Westminster crowd have become equally comfy and could, in fact, have been won over by the darkside. They don’t have the bottle. There’s no spark or drive. They’re busy having a civil war (Oh FFS!).

      Yet whatever they’ve got in mind and whatever their plan? Whether we agree with it or not, they’re our best hope. The Scottish government have to literally negotiate a legal, constitutional, economic and societal meltdown with both hands tied behind their backs in terms of powers.

      It’s also entirely possible they’re the wrong folk to ask right enough. Might be the people to ask why we are where we are, should be UK gov and the people who voted no in 2014. It wouldn’t be wrong for folk to reason that we’re here in the middle of this shit storm because we didn’t take the exit door when it was lit with neon arrows shouting ‘this way to the lifeboats’.

      If the latter half of the equation above are fortunate? There might be an opportunity to light up those neon signs again in the not too distant future.

      Right now though? Now it’s going to be a process and legality ridden minefield in an unprecedented situation with spin, dirty pool and fibbery on display which’ll make indyref 1 look like the good ol’ days.

      And yes. At this point, you’d have to be a stone not feel the nerves fraying a bit.

      Given where we all find ourselves, I don’t think they were left with many options on their route of travel. Bound by office, the will of the electorate (as of 2014), caught in a constitutional crisis not of their choice or making. Jeez, what a mincer. I think most folk who are pro indy would almost certainly wish it were otherwise. And as for the appalling nature of the central government they are dealing with?

      However, if someone had said to me four years ago that there was an outside chance of us getting close to another indyref in under ten years? I’d have bitten their arm off up to the shoulder for the opportunity. So… silver linings (of a kind).

    44. KG here. Im heading for the WoS meetup later at Dows see you there.

    45. Luigi says:

      Folks, I appreciate the painful frustration that many indy supporters are suffering. The Scottish government seems to be doing very little, but big things may be happening behind closed doors at the mo. I hope, I really do hope that Nicola and her team are keeping their plans hidden and this is why it’s all quiet on the indy front. We may get a nice surprise (ie. a very nasty surprise for the British establishment).

      Things will become clear soon enough IMO. Covert plans to extend article 50 may work in the short term, but the EU elections in May mean that very difficult and unpopular decisions will have to be made before then. The chances of it reaching May seem to be rapidly evaporating in any case. The Brexit brown stuff is about to hit the fan big time.

      A request for a section 30 agreement will almost certainly be denied (or stalled more likely) by May or whoever succeeds her, so the SG will have Plan B, C, D and E at the ready. What they cannot do is meekly accept being denied and carry on the fight as usual. Worryingly, Nicola seems to have ruled out a ref without an agreed S30 and this would be a big mistake IMO.

      What I am hoping is that Nicola is happy to let WM think that and will play along with them until it is too late. Can you imagine the BritNat expression of horror if the SG did something completely unexpected?

      Squeaky bum time for both sides – who knows how this will unfold? What I would say is give Nicola the time an space to come up with the goods and strike at the right time. Our enemies are at their most divided and weakest in living memory. I am prepared to trust Nicola that she will not waste this opportunity.

      “Hold!, Hold!”. 🙂

    46. ScotsRenewables says:

      Great post Luigi

    47. yesindyref2 says:

      Not my cup of tea, thanks.

    48. john boy says:

      I don’t remember Treeza ever saying No to a second Indy ref.

      She has always used the term “now is not the time…”.

      Which is completely different from saying No.

      I think we have all the legal requirements on our side with the mandate we have.

      And when it finally comes down to it, we will get our referendum.

    49. sassenach says:

      This is, by far, the most frustrating time for us Indy supporters, but there is only a short time now before ‘something’ will have to happen about Brexit – and I’m happy(?) with how Nicola is playing it at the moment, so we must “hold,hold” as has been said.

      Nicola knows if she ‘goes too soon’ it could provoke reaction from Treeza, and we lose our moment.

      I trust our leader – who else is there to do the job?

      FGS get off her back and have some faith!

    50. Proud Cybernat says:

      Since UKLabour are now supporting a 2nd EURef it might be that after Brexit UKLabour will put SM+CU with EU in their party manifesto in order to spike SNP indy plan.

    51. Breeks says:

      louis.b.argyll says:
      2 March, 2019 at 12:00 pm
      Breeks, do you really think Cherry, Blackford, etc are blind to establishment strategy

      No. But I do wonder whether they are hamstrung by the “wait and see” strategy whereby for the last two and a half years all the initiative has been continually surrendered to Westminster, the British Establishment and the BBC.

      The only Brexit initiative the SNP contested was the Continuity Legislation, which was outplayed by the UK’s Supreme Court, but was only ever relevant as a Soft Brexit contingency.

      The YES movement has been given nothing to sustain itself, no steering or direction. Pro Independence voices from the London Calling crew, and wider disquiet about the stagnancy in the Pro Independence Movement have been ostracised to the wilderness with nothing to contemplate except their own exasperation.

      This isn’t a YES Campaign, it isn’t even an Independence Campaign. We are in the middle of a “Trust Nicola” Campaign, when you still can’t even tell me explicitly what it is we are trusting Nicola to actually do.

      You don’t want me to know what you’re planning? Fine. My country is about to be drummed out of Europe against it’s will, and to call our campaign of resistance anaemic is a disservice to anaemia.

    52. Golfnut says:

      @ breeks.

      Very good post, worth reading properly.

    53. Thepnr says:

      Will Brexit really be over soon? I have my doubts as May is a world champion at can kicking.

      Ministers are using the terms “MV2” and “MV3” to describe what they now view as the likely second and third meaningful votes…

      Under one scenario gamed by senior figures in government, the EU could agree to May’s request for a “short, limited” extension of around two months, but then either rule out a further extension beyond June, or insist any further extension would have to be much longer to incorporate an election or referendum.

      In this scenario, May’s allies believe, parliament would face a final choice in June between her deal, no deal, a softer Brexit, a lengthy delay, or revoking Article 50. Confronted with what ministers are calling the “real cliff edge”, they believe May’s deal could then secure a Commons majority, with the DUP, most ERG MPs, and some Labour backbenchers backing it.

      Alternatively, if the EU takes a harder line and rejects a two-month delay, instead insisting on a longer delay of around two years, May’s allies believe they could put her deal to parliament at the end of March, where it would suddenly look a lot more attractive to MPs.

    54. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ian B
      Thanks for pointing out Breeks’s posting, I’d skipped past it when I saw “horse whispering”.

      Yes, good post.

    55. yesindyref2 says:

      @louis.b.argyll “Breeks, do you really think Cherry, Blackford, etc are blind to establishment strategy.

      Good initial point, irrelivantly ruined by your own finger pointing.

      Not ruined I think, it’s for the reader to think whether appropriate to the likes of the SNP / SG or not. I think not. But warnings, even if not well-founded, can at least provoke thought.

    56. Abulhaq says:

      The issue with the Brexit situation is that not a few of us is wondering why Scottish politics appears to be in the doldrums at such a time of ‘crisis’. England is as usual leading the dance. Scotland seems a wallflower waiting for an opportunity to get on the floor.
      If a referendum is in the mind of the SNP leadership we ought to be firing up the independence propaganda machinery right now. The British State’s staying in our getting out of the EU has nothing to do with that. The public is growing bored and weary with the endless, fruitless London politicking, we need to cut to the chase, and on our terms.

    57. yesindyref2 says:

      Sorry, I said “even if not well-founded” that should have been

      “even if not well-founded – in our own opinion”

    58. HandandShrimp says:

      Excellent cartoon. May as the Red Queen and it would be complete. I can’t recall a time when UK politics was as fantastical and chaotic as now. It really is as dangerous and madcap as Wonderland.

      We need to get off this fairground ride asap.

    59. Muscleguy says:

      With the vorpal blade of true facts and figures instead of Unionist distortions.

    60. Puzzled Puss says:

      @Bob Mack at 12.15

      If they try eating us oysters, let’s give them a right bout of indigestion!

    61. Muscleguy says:

      Thanks Chris, this is my favourite Lewis Carrel quote and I know it by heart. I almost used it as the frontispiece of my PhD thesis, on mouse limb development.

      Why don’t pigs have wings? because they aren’t bats. But give them a few million years and the right sequence of selection events and maybe. But they’re more likely to develop flippers and they are already inclined, thanks to human selection, to accumulate blubber.

    62. Footsoldier says:

      Abulhaq 1.34pm

      “we ought to be firing up the independence propaganda machinery right now”.

      Could not agree more. This is the time for building, indyref2 when it comes is the lever.

    63. Lenny Hartley says:

      O/T Muscleguy, im not a follower of those who believe in talking snakes et all, however one thing about this selection theory , what evidence is there that any creature apart from homo sapiens have evolved like we have? Ie why have Chimps and other apes not moved on from pushing a stick into a hole to collect a few termites. Is their a scienfitic reason, just asking as I have never seen or heard any explanation.

    64. geeo says:

      Dear Nicola,

      Please tell Breeks your indy plans, as clearly you are doing feck all unless he knows about it.

      Sorry to say it Breeks, but that is how your underlying message/mantra comes across, which completely undermines otherwise decent posts.

      I was reading your horse whisperer post with interest as an exercise in ‘Proud Scot But’ indoctrination, but i just knew it was coming….”SNP HOPELESS”

      And as always, you didn’t disappoint.

      Since you seem sure of what the Scotsgov and Nicola are NOT doing, perhaps you could inform us as to what they ARE doing, since you seem to know everthing about indy tactics ?

      Personally, all i need to know is that in 2014 WE as Scots let the SNP down, THEY got us an indyref and WE fecked it up.

      In 2019, THE SNP are on the verge of getting us another opportunity to take our independence once more, in full knowledge that if an indyref is NOT delivered IN THIS PARLIAMENT (a detail people always forget due to obvious ukexit pressures, although, imagine calling an indyref after 18 months of post ukexit shambles/devastation) then the SNP will pay a heavy political price at the ballot box.

      If anyone thinks they would risk their very existance as a government force by not having an effective plan, they must be playing with a short deck.

      When i was a top class junior middle distance athlete many moons ago, i had a tactical plan to suit who i was racing against, did I ….

      a) tell my opponents my plan?

      b) show them at the critical point when they could not counter effectively ?

      My PARENTS were not even privy to my tactical race planning, hell, sometimes i even surprised my coach.

      But i ALWAYS had a plan, and almost always an effective one.

    65. Bobp says:

      Jfngw 10.25am. Yup, charity was invented by the rich, so the poor foot the bill for the poorer.

    66. Robert Peffers says:

      @Luigi says: 2 March, 2019 at 12:48 pm:

      ” … Worryingly, Nicola seems to have ruled out a ref without an agreed S30 and this would be a big mistake IMO.”

      Not true, Luigi. Nicola has categorically stated that no matter what happens she will call an indyref2 with or without a section 30 order, and in the very near future.

      It has been widely reported here on Wings and references given to the sources including those to Nicola herself.

    67. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 13:10,

      You make a fair point there. And it is particularly justified when you read in The National today quotes from one (or more?) “senior SNP MPs” saying we need to “reinforce the mandate” (jeez!) and “there shouldn’t be another referendum until at least 2025” (double jeez!). If that’s not undermining the hope I don’t know what is.

      A self-fulfilling prophecy of initiative failure and self-defeat. (Emanating from our London-based representatives, as seems to be usually the case.)

      The whole thing comes down to popular engagement. And that means putting a choice to the people while many are still reluctant to engage, but who in the face of a decision to take, and with robust arguments that finally have an opportunity to be properly aired, will come round.

      Nicola’s dilemma for the last couple of years has been to neutralise the anti-indyref propaganda by allowing the BritNats to dig their own graves, to allow the facts to mount, so that the expected accusations of reckless SNP rabble-rousing don’t have any credibility. As we have seen with Carlaw’s ridiculous “SNP really want a no-deal Brexit” nonsense.

      It’s been a difficult line to walk. Maybe you and me both would have liked to see something rather more energetic from the SNP across the board, but it has been all about establishing trust in that part of the electorate who are not yet on board, but are winnable.

      On the upside, it has been encouraging to view that video clip someone posted recently in which Keith Brown intimates that Nicola is aware of the danger of post-Brexit normalisation. So maybe the necessary fireworks are not so far off now.

    68. SilverDarling says:

      @ Breeks 10.07

      A post with lots to think about. We seem so often full of insecurity self-doubt as a country and it must come from somewhere. I think you have given as good an illustration as any others out there.

      This self-doubt is everywhere. The proposed Central Bank provoked lots of responses from supporters and detractors alike. The detractors say stuff like

      ‘There won’t be enough money to back it up.
      Why would I put my money into Scotland?
      I’ll put my savings where they will be safe – anywhere but Scotland’

      It seems ridiculous, after everything that we know now about the mismanagement of the Financial sector and UK Government and banking collusion there are some who still find the idea that looking after your own resources is too much of a risk and bow to the UK banking sector. Who can make it a safe investment? The people who have faith enough to back it.

      While we have dependent families and financial insecurity there is always a niggle that is it worth the risk? I have a relative who said quite seriously that if they were retired and their family grown up they would devote everything to Independence but just now it is too risky!

      That mentality of dependence and being risk-averse is still a stumbling block and where does it come from? Better(Together) the Devil You Know!

      Independence is a huge leap of faith for some people still but as time goes on it has become obvious to me that Independence is not only the best choice it is imperative that we take control of our own resources and destiny. That is a change in mindset many have to still make.

      Now, how to get there? Holyrood 2021 seems too far away. I feel real anxiety that the process needs to be started before then. Are those we have given our mandate to up to the task? Are they moving quickly enough? I confess to some niggling doubts there which will anger some of the posters here. Hopefully, I will get something to assuage that anxiety soon, but just now I feel we need something, anything, from those that demand somewhat blind faith.

    69. Robert Peffers says:

      @sassenach says: 2 March, 2019 at 12:59 pm:

      … This is, by far, the most frustrating time for us Indy supporters, but there is only a short time now before ‘something’ will have to happen about Brexit – and I’m happy(?) with how Nicola is playing it at the moment, so we must “hold,hold” …

      Very well said, sassenach, and so true.

      Now I won’t blame everyone who has doubts but there is mist certainly commenters on Wings who are deliberately doing their best to discredit anything and everything that the FM/SG/SNP does or attempts to do.

      It would be a miracle if the Westminster Establishment did not have planted agents within every independence organisation. If they do not it will be the very first time in the history of Britain that they didn’t and history stands witness to my claims.

      Furthermore you do not need to be too clever to detect who they are but some are a little bit more subtle than others. However, you have to be suspicious of those who hardly ever post without claiming the FM/SG/SNP are not fighting Scotland’s corner all the way. No one, outside the FM/SG/SNP is better placed to know the score than they are and no one should doubt that the likes of Nicola, who has been dedicated to Scottish Independence since she was a teenager, is now swinging the lead.

    70. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Lenny Hartley @ 14:16,

      I hesitate to expand another O/T discusssion, but I believe it’s due to environmental pressure (or absence thereof). Evolution stagnates in a stable environment and accelerates under stress.

      Same in politics. A party that doesn’t adapt under great change will eventually go under. As we can see happening with NorthBritLab right now. Instead of adapting to altered circumstances, it is desperately trying to maintain its familiar environment against all the odds. Meanwhile the SNP has successfully occupied the changed environmental niche.

      Adapt or die. With no change, it’s not a question of “if” it will die out, just a question of “when”.

    71. Thepnr says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      “The National today quotes from one (or more?) “senior SNP MPs” saying we need to “reinforce the mandate””

      Are you sure they are quoting the SNP?

      Looks to me like they are quoting the BBC’s Nick Eardley and why should anyone believe that source? If someone in the SNP has something to say then I’d rather see them put their name against it than listen to hearsay.

      Please tell me RJS that you’re not falling for bullshit propaganda from “unnamed sources”.

    72. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 15:06:

      there are most certainly commenters on Wings who are deliberately doing their best to discredit anything and everything that the FM/SG/SNP does or attempts to do.

      Yes there are, but far fewer than you seem to think!

      Equating each and every fair expression of doubt over strategy and timing with trolling doesn’t serve open debate, RP.

      macart‘s posting upthread @ 12:22 is a commendable recognition of where we are, I think.

    73. chicmac says:

      Keeping it frivolous:

      ‘Twas brylcream on the slimey coves
      They tried to gamble on their waves;
      For Mumsies’ job, the Boris, Goves,
      And Moggy too, their hairstyles gave.

      “Beware, the job they want, May’s on!
      The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
      Beware the JayCee bird, and shun
      That fluffious bounder, natch!”

      She took her verbal sword in hand:
      Long time the maxim ‘slow’ she sought-
      So rested she by the Tum-ti-Tum tree,
      And stood awhile in thought.

      And, as in huffy thought she stood.
      A Gibberjock, with eyes of shame,
      Came waffling through Hard Brexit wood,
      And blubbered as it came!

      One two! One two! and through and through
      The verbal blade went snicker-snack!
      She left it dead, and with its head
      She went galumphing back.

      “And hast thou slain the Gibberjock?
      Come to my arms, my Bringlish girl!
      O fabulous day! Close down Callaise!
      She chortled in her thrill.

    74. chicmac says:

      ‘Twas brylcream on the slimey coves
      They tried to gamble on their waves;
      For Mumsies’ job, the Boris, Goves,
      And Moggy too, their hairstyles gave.

      “Beware, the job they want, May’s on!
      The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
      Beware the JayCee bird, and shun
      The fluffy Scottish bounder, natch!”

      She took her verbal sword in hand:
      Long time the maxim ‘slow’ she sought-
      So rested by the Tum-ti-Tum tree,
      And stood awhile in thought.

      And, as in huffy thought she stood.
      A Gibberjock, with eyes of shame,
      Came waffling through Hard Brexit wood,
      And blubbered as it came!

      One two! One two! and through and through
      The verbal blade went snicker-snack!
      She left it dead, and with its head
      She went galumphing back.

      “And hast thou slain the Gibberjock?
      Come to my arms, my Bringlish girl!
      O fabulous day! Close down Callaise!
      She chortled in her thrill.

    75. Fireproofjim says:

      Lenny Hartley
      Re your interest in human evolution. Here’s a ultra -brief summmary.
      It is generally agreed that all life developed from very simple, one-celled organisms starting about 4 billion years ago. As each generation developed, some evolved slight advantages to their fellows and, as they were the most likely to survive, this advantage was passed on to their descendants.
      Over millions of generations these advantages and differences resulted in the millions of different animal species we see today.
      The apes appeared about six million years ago and the numerous branching descendants of the early apes include us and the chimpanzees. (Our nearest relative, with about 96% of our DNA)
      Why the humans became so smart is not clear but it happened in the last million years or so.
      You asked why no other species has developed such capacities. Well, somebody has to be first and it just happened to be us. Perhaps in another few million years it will be the dolphins or the meerkats who are top mammal.
      And what,you may ask, is this to do with Inderef2?
      Well, only that evolution appears to have escape those in the Orange order. It’s no coincidence that the words orange and orang are so close.

    76. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 15:09,

      The reference to “2025” mentions “the BBC”, so you could be right about that one at least. Though it still seems to me to originate in unhelpful loose talk from someone who should have known better. (And I can even guess who.) And not the first, other such being well documented at that. And if it’s fake news, why repeat it bare and unchallenged like that?

      On the other hand, the Slorance sketch on the same page is a beaut!

    77. Fireproofjim says:

      Wonderful poem. Lewis Carrol would be proud.

    78. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 2 March, 2019 at 1:10 pm:

      Claptrap – and you know it. Mind you your drivel does serve a useful purpose. It pulls the unionist woodworms out of the woodwork to support your claptrap. Claptrap that is becoming more desperate by the minute.

      Take awe look round and you will see things going on that the unionists don’t want you to know. The World has moved on and things have changed. There is, for example, the case of the Chagos Islanders who have just had their case against the Westminster Establishment upheld by the International courts.

      This after the United Kingdom Supreme Court had ruled it inadmissible. Now consider this will have repercussions upon the USA’s use of the islands and may well result in claims of compensation by the Islanders from both the UK and USA governments.

      Now you may not realise the significance of this in relation to the case for Scottish Independence and the precedence in law that it establishes but think on this. Could you have imagined the islanders winning their case just a few years ago?

      Not so long ago the USA , UK and other World powers could confidently trust they would get away with such human rights abuses and they could do so because they were, “The powers that be”, and no one could stand against them and win.

      This is no longer the case and the injustices they inflicted upon weaker states are going to be answered for – in spades.

      The Kingdom of Scotland has an ironclad case in more than one way. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the United Kingdom is legally an international treaty between two equally sovereign KINGDOMS, (The clue is in the title it gives itself). There is absolutely no doubt that, “The Treaty Of Union”, (1706/7), constituted the United Kingdom and thus The Treaty of Union is the written constitution of the United Kingdom and there is no other in existence.

      That Treaty of Union and its Articles of Union have been broken so often by Westminster that it is doubtful the bits will ever be able to be resembled like doing a jigsaw puzzle.

      The Kingdom of Scotland may regain its freedom by legal action and not by civil referendums or elections. Then there is that little matter of compensations. Now the thefts involved are so great that whay will be left of the Westminster Establishment could never repay what it owes Scotland but the outstanding debts should ensure that no other state or people will ever suffer at Westminster’s hands ever again.

      If Brexit does not curb Westminster the ending of the union most certainly will.

    79. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers “ It pulls the unionist woodworms out of the woodwork to support your claptrap

      Give it a rest Robert, according to you you’re the only person in Scotland who’s an Indy supporter, yet over 1.6 million of us voted YES in 2014.

    80. Gary45% says:

      Brilliant as usual Chris, but I would have to say, that wee prick could never be a carpenter.
      Had one of those “wish I had my phone” moments today.
      We were standing beside our local Yes stall, when I heard raised voices starting on one of the Indy squad, unknown to the “prick” doing the raised voice I happened to recognise him as a BBC shortbread reporter.
      He was basically spouting the same gutter garbage as the wee QT orange bigot.(So the proof was there that they are going to the same gutter media training.
      As I said I wish I had my camera/phone as this BBC. employee embarrassed himself beyond words.
      On the plus side, they are BRICKING IT.
      Tick Tock.

    81. Colin Alexander says:

      I’ll start by discussing the progress to independence in the last few weeks thanks to the SNP:

      Mibbies aye, mibbies some day, we might have our own currency.

      Okay, now I’ve done that, I’m away again to do something better with my time.

      Bye the noo.

    82. Gary45% says:

      What’s your point???

    83. Lenny Hartley says:

      Fireproofjim Lol,

    84. gus1940 says:

      As far as I can see Nicola has NOT said that she would consider a coalition with Labour at WM in spite of our wonderful media shouting from the rooftops that she would.

      What she said was she would be prepared to cooperate with Labour which is NOT a coalition.

    85. Hamish100 says:

      Breeks & all of us

      Ask not what Nicola is doing for her country

      Ask what we are going to do to make sure we do not fail

      Another glorious defeat is not what I wish for and for those calling for action over the past few years that is exactly what we would have had
      Tories/ Labour are at their own throats and the Scottish public sees this. The unionists are seeding the doubts all by themselves.
      We need to be ready for a quick referendum on Scottish Independence. 20th June 2019? Schools are still in full of enthusiastic young adults voting for their future and a few days before Bannockburn commemoration.

    86. yesindyref2 says:

      Here’s a good one, to get the blood boiling and the sinews sinewing.

    87. Iain Hamilton says:

      Great cartoon Chris. I am concerned that your work, however, is becoming a wee bit shoddy.I see that you have left a smudge on the drawing, perhaps a rubber smudge, or the leavings of a charcoally finger?

      There seems to be an unintended mark just under the wee mug’s neb. Obviously a slip of the pencil eh?

      //whistles innocently…

    88. jfngw says:

      Labour holding a majority at WM is useless to them unless they also hold a majority in England. With EVEL still in place they would be restricted to what bills they could get through parliament. Unless they scrap EVEL, but how well would that go down in England.

    89. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says: 2 March, 2019 at 3:20 pm:

      ” … there are most certainly commenters on Wings who are deliberately doing their best to discredit anything and everything that the FM/SG/SNP does or attempts to do.”

      Indeed there are – which of course is my point.

      … Yes there are, but far fewer than you seem to think!”

      Oh! Aye! And when did you acquire your long distance mind reading skills? How do you know how many I think there is?

      … Equating each and every fair expression of doubt over strategy and timing with trolling doesn’t serve open debate, RP.”

      Oh! Aye! And where did you get this idea I thought people were trolling? Did I mention trolls or trolling? Don’t think I did for it is much worse than trolling it is deliberate attempts to undermine trust in the First Minister, the Scottish Government and SNP.

      I’ve posted it often enough that Nicola Sturgeon is easy to contact directly and her email address and other contact data is published on the Holyrood and SNP websites. The SG can be got too and their data is not hard to find on the Holyrood Parliament website.

      Thing is these people do not want to get their information from the proverbial horse’s mouth – they have quite a different objective. Have you seen a single such post on Wings aimed at either Nicola, the SG or the SNP? Of course you have not because they are aimed at Wingers with the express aim of spreading doubt and despondency among Wingers.

      … Macart‘s posting upthread @ 12:22 is a commendable recognition of where we are, I think.”

      Which brings up yet another little facet of this matter – Is Macart or anyone else here on Wings, and very much including myself, in a position to speak on behalf of the First Minister, the Scottish Government or the SNP?

      So why are these matters being asked here on Wings when it is abundantly clear that doing so is harming the cause? Why talk down the FM, SG and SNP on a forum claiming to support the independence cause?

      What’s more why allow yourselves to be drawn into debating such adverse points when there are many, many readers who read but do not comment?

      If you have doubts or questions why ask wingers about your doubts? Why not ask the First Minister herself? Why not ask the Scottish Government itself on their website or the SNP on their website or go along to any branch meeting. I do not recall ever seeing anyone being turned away from visiting a branch meeting.

      Wings is an open forum and is read by many who are against independence. They kick off a debate that Nicola is sitting on her hands doing nothing then laugh at us getting dragged into debates exactly like you and I are having right now. Then perhaps one of the MSM outlets will tomorrow carry an item about the SNP involved in a civil war with itself.

    90. defo says:

      Ever considered the ‘talk’ of pushing the agenda back, re-inforcing guff, is intended to provoke a lot of noise, so as that she can hear the peoples call for Indyref2?
      Remember “the people will decide when…”?

    91. yesindyref2 says:

      Wings != (not equal to) SNP

      Indeed, and if everybody shuts up faithfully, the point is lost.

    92. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 2 March, 2019 at 4:12 pm:

      ” … Give it a rest Robert, according to you you’re the only person in Scotland who’s an Indy supporter, yet over 1.6 million of us voted YES in 2014.”

      Strange that, yesindyref2 – in around 70 years I cannot recall ever making, or even hinting, and such thing.

      Which raises the wee question, just why you are spouting such an obvious lie?

    93. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmmm, QED 🙂

    94. john boy says:

      Regards these Athletic championships in Glasgow,,,


      Anybody But Team GB.

      I will not support anything or anyone that uses the Butchers Apron to promote their cause.

      England own the Butchers Apron,,,they are welcome to it.

    95. handclapping says:

      “Well! They were both very unpleasant characters—” Alice began

      No credit for John Tenniel? He chose the carpenter, it could have been the Walrus and the Butterfly.

      I am not an oyster!

    96. yesindyref2 says:

      It’d be good if YES could choreograph and put together something like this.

      And a few dancing musical YES flashmobs 🙂

      Totally serious by the way, a new YES group “YES dance” or “YES flashdance”, going around like the very effective YES Bikers. If the UK state can come out with its insidious negative propaganda, we should come out with our equally insidious positive propaganada – a positive campaign beats a negative one.

      When I play that and it goes “dance dance dance dance dance dance dance …” I hear “YES YES YES YES YES YES YES …” so that’s what the main number should do.

      It’d need younger ones, but for the more sedate and leisurely, there’s always some foot-tapping or shoulder-shrugging!

    97. galamcennalath says:

      Britsnats, all of them, are totally bricking it over IndyRef2. They know it’s coming, but they don’t know how and that suits us just fine (once we put aside frustration and impatience).

      We have had years of anti Indy propaganda from multiple directions. Yes campaigning has been much more muted. And, moreso muted because the msm ignore and play it down. Despite all that, we sit at 50:50.

      When Nicola fires the starter and YES groups of every persuasion campaign in earnest it is going to hit the BritNats like Shock and Awe . They know this and there is bugger all they can do in return. They don’t have the grassroots activists.

      Ranged against us will be big and dark money. Online advertising and social media manipulation. A hostile media. However, firstly, they are going to struggle making a case that the UK is safe and secure, like in 2014. Secondly, to the undecided who has the credibility – faceless advertising and dodgy media … or happy cheerful activists, fellow Scots like themselves, who seem to be everywhere?

      I am optimistic. Simple as that. All the negative opinions expressed when we are down, all the impatience, all the ideas of what’s best strategy … I am certain Nicola and the inner circle have considered it all and ‘war gamed’ it all, and more.

      Returning to the demented BritNats. They know their UK has been screwed beyond resuscitate.

    98. schrodingers cat says:

      it isnt ns or the snp or the sg who will decide if scotland becomes independent. it is the voters, the people of scotland.

      if the polls had support for indy at 60%, the conversation would be completely different.

      unfortunately, the polls seem to be stuck at about 45-48%, not enough to win a referendum but enough to ensure the snp remains the biggest force in scottish politics

      it amazes me the resilience of the unionist vote, especially in the face of such cringing incompetence at westminster, but this is where we are.

      i have always believed that movements dont win political battles, it is governments who lose them and traditionallyyin scotland, changes in attitude and voter patterns tend to be incremental, the last large scale swing was in 2010-2011 when the libdems commited suicide by going into coalition with the tories. snp support went up to 45% from 38%. the 2015 49.5% snp vote was due to a large turn out of out vote, the fall in 2017 to 38% was due to the failure of out voters to show up, not to the recovery of the unionist parties.

      so what for us going forward? there are only two ways of gaining independence, by a referendum or an election. people will need to vote for it in one or the other, there exists no other electoral method that i know of.

      there are advantages and disadvantages to us in both methods, but i would point out that the route currently favoured by the snp is via a referendum. but that is our choice. wm can refuse or block indyref2, but it cannot block elections. even closing holyrood wouldnt stop ge’s.

    99. Petra says:

      At Westminster all week and traipsing around doors on their weekend off. Definitely puts some of the keyboard-bound SNP complainers to shame. Why wait for the starting gun to go off? I just don’t get it when I hear people coming out with such comments. Makes us all look like a bunch of bumbling zombies.

      ”Great to be out with @snpclacks & fellow @theSNP #NEC members in Sauchie today campaigning to get the excellent Jane McTaggart elected. The team on on the doors included @KeithBrownSNP & @alisonthewliss #activeSNP #VoteMcTaggart1”


      ”My goodness, the Tories really are terrified of the will of the Scottish people. This is not the look of a party confident in the strength of its own arguments.”


      ”Isle of Man is not part of UK but is in currency union. It has never been a member of the EU but operates under Protocol 3. If Isle of Man (pop 84,500) can have its own currency & EU relationship, why can’t Scotland?”


    100. Petra says:

      @ yesindyref2 says at 6:18 pm …”It’d be good if YES could choreograph and put together something like this.”

      There you go yesindyref2 something for you to do for the Independence cause in your spare time, lol.

    101. Lenny Hartley says:

      Petra i have visitd the Isle of Man over 40 times, and I believe it is not in a formal currency union with the UK. So looked up wikipedia and this is what it says.

    102. Petra says:

      WGD: ‘A Conservative stitch-up.’

      And once again, folks: …

      ”The reality is that Scotland doesn’t need Theresa May’s permission to decide on its future. There is, as this blog has explored, more than one perfectly legal way in which the people of Scotland can have a democratic vote on whether we want to remain subject to the whims of an incompetent, venal, and broken Westminster system or become an independent, grown up, normal nation. There’s a consultative referendum, there’s turning a future Holyrood or Westminster election into a plebiscite election on independence. One way or another, Scotland can have a vote on its future, and Theresa May can’t stop it.”….

    103. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, I’m not convinced this is just what I had in mind:

      maybe more like this:

    104. Petra says:

      @ Lenny Hartley says at 6:42 pm …. ”Petra i have visited the Isle of Man over 40 times, and I believe it is not in a formal currency union with the UK. So looked up wikipedia and this is what it says.


      Thanks for that Lenny. That part of my post was taken from Stu’s twitter feed. It’s kind of confusing mind you. The tweeter on there states that the, ”Isle of Man is not part of UK but is in currency union.”

      And in the Wikipedia link that you have provided it outlines that, …”Primarily this was because most of the Island’s trade is with the United Kingdom and other countries of Europe, and the break-up of the existing currency union with the UK would cause economic harm to the Island.”

      Maybe it will lead to a bit of a debate, lol?

    105. Jomry says:

      Robert Peffers
      You are quite right that there are many people who read Wings and rarely comment. I am one of those people and I keep coming back because I find it a very useful information resource (through such items as Nana’s invaluable links) and because my thinking about independence matters is informed by many of the comments and opinions btl. Indeed, I have found many of your own contributions of interest in the past.

      As you say, this is an open forum and one of its strengths is the diversity of viewpoint – including different perspectives on what political strategies are most likely to bring about independence. Some of these are necessarily critical of strategies currently being adopted by the SNP and offer alternative approaches. I find these of interest and where they have appeared sensible, I have in the past brought these up at SNP branch meetings.

      While I have a number of reservations about some SNP general policies, I remain a member because I believe they represent the best political force to bring about independence. I do not believe, however, that the SNP and its officials are infallible – nor do I believe that they always get it right.

      I have absolutely no difficulty with exposure to alternative ideas which may or may not be critical of current SNP strategy. I do not require your protection against such “heretical “ thoughts. In fact I find your attempts to encourage uncritical adulation of all SNP policies and personnel decidedly unhealthy.

      Your knee-jerk reaction to comments critical of SNP and your often insulting attempts to denigrate the commenters are tedious in the extreme and do little to encourage me to be a regular visitor to this site. They are counterproductive an I usually give them a wide berth. However, since it s a rainy Saturday afternoon, I took the trouble to read them today.

      I am reminded of PG Wodehouse’s character – the Oldest Member ——“The club’s members enjoy having drinks in the clubhouse after a brisk eighteen holes, they do so fully aware of the risk that the Oldest Member who, though he has long since given up golf, has seen all and knows all, might pick up on their conversation and begin to relate a story from his experience. Once he has started talking, he cannot be stopped.”

      If the cap fits…

    106. Petra says:

      Forget about The Shuffle. This real oldie is still brilliant for getting you going. Going? Better get a blooming move on. Get the makeup and dancing shoes on for, YAY, party time.

      Hope all you Wingers have a fantastic time too tonight X

    107. Lenny Hartley says:

      Petra, Isle of Man definately not in a formal currency union, the Manx Government do ensure parity with Sterling but the currency union if you want to call it that is decidedly one way.
      Last time I tried to exchange Manx Notes at my local bank I was knocked back!

    108. Al Dossary says:

      The Manx get just as tetchy about their Manx pound (Sterling) being refused on the mainland as do we Scots when south of he border.

      You will regularly get notes of Irish, Scottish, English and even the channel Islands in your change there – plus the obligatory Manx currency. Beautiful place when the sun is shining, but not so in winter when it can be a drab, dreich and dreary place.

      £180 a week pension, a little better than ours. 19 years ago when I was last there I can still remember the headline – “Lowest ever unemployment figures, with 198 people out of work on the Island (representing about 0.5% of the working population) !”

    109. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Robert Peffers 5.25 pm

      Dear Robert,

      Thank you for all your contributions on Scotland’s Constitutional History. I have learnt a lot from you and very much appreciate it.

      I find your continued bullying of any person who holds genuine concerns about ‘the how’ we reach independence – deeply, deeply hurtful and upsetting. Bullying in my opinion.

      Blind loyalty, can be incredibly stupid loyalty – one has only to look at the Labour Party to see how that works.

      They say the price of democracy is eternal vigilance – that means holding our own parties to account as much as, or even more, than our opposition. If questions are not asked, if they are not transparent – then those who pull their punches under the guise of keeping their powder dry, will continue to do so for a very long time – and those who silence the questioners – will have assisted them greatly.

      How dare you dictate the way, the method, the venue by which members of the public raise their concerns about their elected politicians. How Dare You. If this political blog site is the way or the place, they feel safest, or most comfortable to do so – then good for them.

      It is appalling that you would try to brow beat them into your chosen method and your method only. Appalling, and deeply anti-democratic.

      You must have an incredibly poor opinion of Nicola Sturgeon’s robustness, in the face of honest concerns. I do not – she is one talented, tough lady.

      You needn’t bother replying to this. I won’t be contributing btl again.

    110. yesindyref2 says:

      @Daisy Walker
      You needn’t bother replying to this. I won’t be contributing btl again

      Oh yes you will 🙂

      I hope …

    111. Cherry says:

      @Al dossary having lived and worked on the IOM, I can vouch very much on it not being dreary in the winter months…That’s when the people of the island party without holiday makers getting in the way of their local pub. I loved it! Many happy memories of my time amongst the Manx I even brought back my very own little Manx baby!

    112. Dan says:

      Petra @ 7.11

      That’ll be the new anthem the leavers play as they produce their innovative jams in an attempt to boost the economy in mitigation for the current exodus of businesses.

      I’ve previously pointed out to some committed jamers doon soof that it’s difficult to boil jam when you’ve no leccy.

    113. Jomry says:

      @Daisy Walker 7.30.
      Seconded. And in a much more coherent fashion than my earlier post.

      I enjoy your contributions. Keep posting.

    114. ScottieDog says:


      “This self-doubt is everywhere. The proposed Central Bank provoked lots of responses from supporters and detractors alike. The detractors say stuff like

      ‘There won’t be enough money to back it up.
      Why would I put my money into Scotland?
      I’ll put my savings where they will be safe – anywhere but Scotland’

      Yes The unionists will try to sew the seeds of self doubt. That would be the case whatever currency option we go for. If we decide (as we must) to launch a new currency on day 1, they will be quietly shitting themselves.

      So we must educate folk to the importance of a sovereign currency from the start. The two currencies will operate in parallel for some time but the government will need to start taxing in the new currency from the off thus creating a demand for it.

      It’s a choice between REAL borrowing (continuing with sterling) and pretendy borrowing (using the new scotpound).
      The first choice puts the city of London in charge. The second choice puts the Scottish treasury in charge.

      There are real challenges ahead and if we are damned if we do and damned if we don’t, let’s make the right decision.

    115. Lenny Hartley says:

      Al Dossary if you think the Isle of Man is bleak in Winter, you want to try Arran 🙂 i wont listen to the BBC radio or TV so listen to Manx Radio for several houes daily, the weather there is generally slightly better than Arran’s There might be a low unemployment rate but cuts arebiting, Gideon Osbourne screwed over the Manx with reform of a vat sharing agreement. Basically the long term future does not look good, Brexit could be the straw that breaks the camels back for the Crown Dependencies, maybe we should offer to make them part of the Scots Crown, I fancy a Scottish TT 🙂

    116. yesindyref2 says:

      You’ll get a laugh at this one, posted in a reply in The National:

      words almost fail me. The stupidity of your post is… well, stupid.
      You propose sterlingisation AND using the Scottish Pound at the same time?????? What? If you decide to go down the path of an informal currency deal with the UK (aka “sterlingisation”) then you CANNOT use a Central Bank. It is one or the other. You can prepare the foundations for a Central Bank (which is what Andrew Wilson is proposing) but you cannot have both at the same time. This is as basic as the two times table. You then somehow think that the Financial institutions of rUK, which I may add is worth £130+billion, a figure which dwarfs Scotlands, to the UK economy will up sticks and move to Scotland? What? Stay in London and be backed up by a currency and a bank 100s of years old or move to a country with some sort of Central bank with no reserves and no worth outside the borders of Scotland? Lemme think….
      We would then be able to “lend money to them”
      Really? And where would that money come from? Andrew Wilson states that an iScotland would need to cut our deficit by some £10billion, find money to fund this new bank after about ten years AND lend money to rUK?
      Insane, quite insane. And shows zero knowledge of finance.
      I despair, I really do.

      Ummm, where to start!

    117. Iain 2 says:

      Regarding Robert Pefers, he is a true friend of the Scottish independence movement.
      He has explained the act of union to me and I suspect many of the readers of this blog.
      Any atempt to undermine him is surely the work of youn agents.

    118. Heart of Galloway says:

      Just for information, The National’s story on IndyRef2 timing and control was indeed quoting Nick Eardley’s BBC piece directly.

      The relevant sections states: “A senior SNP figure at Westminster: ‘We have a mandate – we have to find ways to reinforce it.'”

      Then: “A senior SNP MP told the BBC there shouldn’t be another referendum until 2025. We’re just not ready.'”

      A few points need making here:

      1) These are anonymous BBC *quotes* allegedly gleaned by the journalist in question. We only have his word that they are a) accurate and b) came from the *sources* from whence he says they came. So treat with caution.

      2) This is Nick Eardley. The wee fella’s trying to make a name for himself among the heavyweights ‘dan sarf’. His story contained absolutely nothing newsworthy. So why was it aired at all? Answer – he is seeking to frame the constitutional debate, not report it – in this case by repeating the unionist meme that Scotland in powerless to act without Westminster’s consent.

      This habit has been in evidence throughout the whole Brexit farce, almost exclusively favouring the hard Brexiteers. Katya Adler’s wishcasting that ‘Europe only needs to bend a little on the backstop to give the PM what she needs’ refrain is a case in point.

      That was of course a fantasy – but had the unspoken aim of hardening public opinion against the EU. Therefore, treat Eardley’s report with a similar degree of scepticism.

      3) The the first BBC quote is NOT attributed to an MP – so it could be a staffer, even if the statement is to be believed. The second quote IS reputed to come from an MP, who mentions ‘2025’. Again, because the person is not named, we have no way of verifying whether the statement is true.

      Even if it is, would it not be surprising if there were NOT a range of views re the timing of IndyRef2 among our London 35? For obvious reasons, Eardley has gone for one voice at the extreme end of the scale.

      I do not believe it is a representative view. Not only that, there strong signals coming from the top that the phoney war is coming to an end. Tremors in the force, if you will.

      The FM’s response to the un-named Tory minister’s dismissal of Scotland’s European voice against Brexit – ‘once you’ve hit an iceberg, you’re all on it together’ – was portentous. She said: “Well, actually, no. Scotland does not have to sink with the Brexit ship.”

      Nicola Sturgeon is a skilled politician of high standing across the world. Throwaway statements are not her style – what she says always has meaning and import. For that reason, that short sentence carries a significance far greater than first impressions may suggest.

      It is at once a threat and a promise: the first to May’s British nationalists, that Scotland will not be subjugated; the second to the Yes movement and its all gloriouly diverse footsoldiers, that our long patient wait to fight for our country’s future, perhaps its very survival, will soon be over.

      I along with many others believe the backpedalling on IndyRef2 in the 2017 council and general elections was a serious strategic error. I was heavily involved in both campaigns. I saw first-hand how disillusionment among our voters led to many staying at home or, even worse, in a few cases switching their vote for lack of belief in our core message.

      I do not believe the SNP will make that mistake again. Nicola Sturgeon may be many things, but she is no kidder. She is acutely aware that doing nothing as Scotland’s EU lifeboat disappears over the horizon could have potentially fatal consequences for the independence movement.

      Therefore, having prepared a battle plan – which I believe will involve ‘internationalising’ the yes campaign – she will go ‘all in’.

      “We will not allow Scotland to be dragged out of the EU against its will” is no idle boast. Rather, it is a declaration of intent, one founded in the principal of Scottish popular sovereignty, from which there can be no retreat.

      It has another vital function – that of reducing the standing of the Section 30 consent issue to that of a house of cards. When May says ‘naw’ it will tumble like the walls of Jericho, brought down not by trumpets, but by a great Scottish clarion call – “we are the people and we say yes.”

    119. yesindyref2 says:

      @Heart of Galloway
      Personally I think the BBC is being used and abused.

      How shocking! Sweet Dreams are indeed made of this.

    120. ScottieDog says:

      I don’t understand half of it tbh. Incoherent nonsense.

      As for the Coty of London’s ‘value’ to the economy. Well we can start with the £1tr recession and the 100s of BNs in lost GDP due to their practise of creating money to inflate property and asset markets.

      The value of REAL assets Scotland has brought to the table is unsurpassed.

      His rantings are like a collage of daily mail headlines in Dahli form.

    121. yesindyref2 says:

      @ScottieDog “His rantings are like a collage of daily mail headlines in Dahli form.

      Good aren’t they.

      My posting was done to be a bit provocative I have to admit. It succeeded in trolling the trolls 🙂

    122. Dorothy Devine says:

      Just back from a brief but pleasing visit to Dow’s pub. Lovely to see some familiar and not so familiar faces and Ian brotherhood does indeed make a mean tattie salad!

    123. One_Scot says:

      Lol, Nick Eardley. Good to see that I am not the only one who sees what the wee fud is up to. Clearly his new found fame has gone to his head. Some of his tweets are desperate. This is a belter,

    124. ben madigan says:

      here’s how the debate/discussion of irish re-unification stands at the moment
      Hope you all enjoy it, think about the questions in it and see how it matches up or otherwise with the scottish state of play

    125. Cactus says:

      Burp, let’s keep the party fucking going Wings Over Dows!

      Furra now, lorra good people.

      Freedom imminent.

    126. Mogabee says:

      Wow Chris, that’s bloody genius and no mistake!

    127. schrodingers cat says:

      I along with many others believe the backpedalling on IndyRef2 in the 2017 council and general elections was a serious strategic error


      they back pedalled on the position they had in 2015 ge (49.5% of the vote) although indyref2 wasnt even on their manifesto ???

      the position the snp have taken, imho, has been the correct one. that does not exclude them putting indy front and centre of the manifesto in the next election.

      what dictates their position isnt bloggers, members or their own wishes….. it is the voters/public opinion

      if support for indy is at 59% after a no deal brexit (as opinion polls indicate it will be) then i guarantee you independence will be the only thing on the snp manifesto in the coming ge.

      the snp have nurtured their support (and support for indy) from a very small base to where it is today by doing exactly this sort of thing.

      we are at 45/48% at the mo. not long now. the buffoons in wm are our trump card in this goat rodeo, it is they who will deliver the last few % we need really begin to walk the walk.

    128. Heart of Galloway says:


      Eurythmics – nah.

      EU-rythmics – aye!

    129. cynicalHighlander says:

      Fiat money is only a piece of paper with printing on it.

    130. Cactus says:

      Ooh ah just a little bit…

      Ooh ah little bit more..

      Rockin 2 ra music!

    131. Heart of Galloway says:

      schrodingers cat@9.37

      The EU ref in between the 2015 GE and the 2017 GE changed all. The former saw an awful lot of people who voted ‘no’ in IndyRef 1 vote SNP in 2015 because they regretted their decision the second they stepped out of the polling booth.

      The FM’s announcement in June 2016, after every single one of Scotland’s local authority areas voted Remain, that a second IndyRef was ‘extremely likely’ was audacious but absolutely correct.

      But after securing a mandate for IndyRef 2 69-59 in the Scottish Parliament, in response Theresa May called a snap GE. The message to activists fighting those elections was that they were “not about independence or about another referendum”.

      But they were – because all the feckin’ Tories banged on about was “send a message to Nicola Sturgeon…” etc etc.

      The upshot was that our support – and many who had come over to us – stayed away in droves.

      But that is in the past. As I said, I think some hard lessons have been learned. Re opinion polls, I would be extremely wary of depending on them being a true reflection of Scottish public opinion right now, simply because their findings can be skewed depending on the questions asked and who commissioned them.

      In any case, when WERE the last opinion polls?

      I would not be so sure about a no-deal Brexit either – we should be prepared to fight and win under any scenario, with Scottish EU membership anchoring the campaign. That cannot wait for Theresa May to call a GE, which may never happen.

      You are right about the ‘yes’ base being much higher than pre-2014 but opinion polls should not guide our actions. We have not yet begun to fight.

    132. TJenny says:

      Found this on Peter Foster’s tl (he’s the Europe Ed of The Daiy Telegraph – views his own) wrt UK govt + Brexit,

      ‘depositing codicil at the UN so Cox (Attorney General Sir Geoffrey) can reference Article 60 of Vienna Convention 1986 on right of parties to exit treaties in even (think he meant event) of material breach’.

      Could be a way to indy for us. God knows how many times our treaty of union’s been breached by now.

    133. manandboy says:

      The British Establishment & Government are expert at window dressing, presenting an image of respectability and propriety. But behind the scenes, out of public view, they show their true & evil colours. Empire through Colonialism lives on. The killing of troublesome individuals, either singly, in groups, or in tens of thousands, is standard for the British Empire, particularly in the Colonies, like India and Ireland.
      Oh that Scotland would wake up to the truth about The Empire and about The Union.

    134. Ghillie says:

      To all our folks at the Wing’s Gathering in Glasgow – have a really lovely time 🙂

      Wish we could be there with you!

      Take care in those high winds!

    135. Cactus says:

      Listen to the wind blow Ghillie…

      We’re awe goin’:

      Watch the iScottish sun rise.

    136. Alexandra-M- says:

      I can’t find off topic, so here I am.

      Excellent night with the wings crowd. It was lovely to see so many known and loved faces and also meeting so many new (to me) people. I’m now on the train after a very undignified dash through Queen Street Station

    137. Ghillie says:

      Jomry. That was not a constructive comment.

      Just mean spirited.

    138. Ghillie says:

      Daisy. OTT deneigration.

      I think you are wrong.

      And I agree with RP.

    139. Elizabeth Stanley says:

      I just want Scottish independence.

      I loathe the Cons.I despise Labs.I spit on Libs.

      Err….that’s it really.

    140. Sassenach says:

      Completely agree, treatment of RP was uncalled for.
      He’s done more to ‘educate’ folk on this site and deserves credit, not abuse.

    141. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dorothy Devine –

      You do know how to flatter a man!

      Lovely seeing you, albeit too briefly.


    142. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Daisy Walker @ 19:30,

      Please stick around, Daisy. Your contributions are always interesting, and what you say here is true; there are many who can see it, even if there are some who apparently can’t.

      One can disagree without being gratuitiously (and apparently blithely) obnoxious and hair-trigger sensitive about it.

    143. Famous15 says:

      RP is a grumpy bastard but he is OUR love/hate grumpy bastard and I would rather have him write here than not…mostly.

      He has made me do more research than I wished and I am the better for it. The grumpy b

    144. Cactus says:

      We’re at the still of the night… Lewis:

      Chez ra after show Wings party…

      Many groovy cools.

    145. Petra says:

      Well Robert (P) you know what the opposition, any opposition for any cause great or small will always attempt to do, that is to attack their GREATEST enemy and try to undermine and discredit them (lawyers do it all the time) and by God you most certainly come into that category. I’ve learned more on here from YOU than any teacher that I’ve ever had throughout my lifetime plus any learning I’ve tried to do on my own and I THANK you most sincerely for that. I owe you. I’m also extremely aware of the fact that you are very elderly, sick and disabled. Well what can I say about that other than that I would REALLY love you to be young, fit and healthy. As it stands I’m totally gobsmacked and FULL of admiration that you can find the strength to go on. Carry on with your lifetime objective and put up with the flack that you encounter on here.

      The online Wings site and Stu must be the greatest threat to the Westminster Establishment (other than the SNP) followed by people like Nana (sorry Nana) and yourself. No one on here will EVER attack Stu or Nana for all of the obvious reasons so you, and the SNP, are next in line Robert. The perfect targets. I can see it clearly as no doubt thousands of other people who visit this site can see it too. Can see exactly what’s going on here.


      @ Daisy Walker says at 7:30 pm …. ”Dear Robert …’How dare you dictate the way, the method, the venue by which members of the public raise their concerns about their elected politicians. How Dare You. If this political blog site is the way or the place, they feel safest, or most comfortable to do so – then good for them. It is appalling that you would try to brow beat them into your chosen method and your method only. Appalling, and deeply anti-democratic.

      Dear Robert and then what Daisy? You go on to dictate to and browbeat him? ”Apalling” I would say. Can’t you see it? He has a right to say what he wants to on here just as you, with your constant SNP Baad messages, or anyone else does too. Most of us who visit Wings are extremely intelligent adults who are perfectly capable of separating the wheat from the chaff and by God there’s loads of chaff floating about on this site. My message to you now Daisy is, ”how dare YOU try to turn this into an anti-democratic site?”

    146. Dorothy Devine says:

      Round of applause Petra!

      Thanks to Mr Peffers I have learned a great deal even though he can be a curmudgeon at times – but then can’t we all?

      I remember someone giving me a sneery putdown because I didn’t hold with their ‘Blessed Obama ‘ spiel , but that’s all part of active debate is it not?

      Wingers, went the rest of the night well?

      I’ve already guessed who the last man standing was – someone not very prickly at all!

    147. Ken500 says:

      There are appalling comments against the SNP/members by people who support Independence. They are cutting off their nose tospite their face and can’t even realise it,

      The Greens car park tax. Giving the Tories the ammunnition to attack the SNP. Even giving May another opportunity to lie about Scotland in the Commons. Along with the other lies. The other useless unionists joining in as usual. How ignorant and arrogant are some people. Just giving the unionists ammunition they can use to ruin the economy. The Brexit/unionist shambles. The ignoramouses voting for them. Actualy voting to make themselves poorer.

      There are now less people coming from the EU and more people coming from the rest of the world. The Tory/unionists are just unbelieveable. Every word they utter is a lie. Another shambles. What a mess.

      The state Scotland would be in without the SNP in charge is unimaginable. Thank goodness for them standing up again the utter unionist shambles and mess. The SNP/members need all the help they can get. Scotland can do better without the Westminster shambles. A total disgrace. The time to have an Ibdependenc Ref is when it can be won. If it takes a little longer, so be it. Scotland is going its own way in any case.

      Corbyn is useless but the anti-Semitic lies are orchestrated by the Israeli embassy and the Press. Being paid to do it. Another attack on democracy by a handful of people. Many Jewish people within the Labour Party etc and Israel do not support the Israeli apartheid Gov policies. How many more people will die because of it. There are many people in Israel who do not support it. The Israeli regime is supported recently by a Russian neo Nazi emigre rep. Netanyahu is facing charges of corruption. Supported by £Billions of US dollars bribing people. Videos are available showing the corruption. Spending the money on arms instead of feeding people. Leaving people starving and destitute.

    148. sassenach says:

      Well said, Petra, re RP.

      I had the ‘honour’ to be on the end of one of his “that is pish” retorts some time ago, and felt a bit sore for a while!!
      But he has taught me so much about Scotland and our constitutional place, and I’m forever grateful.

      If I had to decide who’s posts I trust or not regarding indy then RP’s are at the top. Keep on “pishing”, Robert!

    149. Nana says:

      One from last year explaining the Scottish Claim of Right

      So @theSNP plan to establish a Scottish Statistics Agency…because of ‘cracks’ on the UK analyses. (i.e. WM is cooking the books as usual)

      Try this from 1964 about 1950s Scotland subsidizing rUK…

    150. Nana says:

      Will not archive

      Revealed: Facebook’s global lobbying against data privacy laws

      Yeah. It’s happening. The UK shall henceforth be known as the 51st state of the US, with Theresa May serving as Donald Trump’s caddy and stair navigator. Thanks, Brexit.

    151. Nana says:

      The beneficiaries of Help-to-Buy have put their name around party members’ necks.

      Thousands face incorrect benefit cuts from automated fraud detector

      Defra has put out a detailed Brexit preparedness notice, explaining exactly how dead the UK fisheries industry will be in the case of no-deal. (TL/DR version: very very dead.) No access to EU waters or automatic right to land fish in EU ports.

    152. Nana says:

      UK firms report weakest growth since April 2013 – CBI

      Brexit exodus as QUARTER of civil servants working on deal quit in six months

      Brexit: death cult Tories

    153. Hamish100 says:

      There are individuals on the web page who are getting a bit excitable.

      Debate is healthy – excluding the offensive posters we have been subjected too all to often in recent times.

      It would indicate the brexiters Tories and labour are worried as are thei mouthpieces such as the BBC.

      No doubt there are 5th columnists on here just as there are in the SNP ,Greens, SSP encouraging dissent , divide and rule, undermining or just feeding back to London HQ.

      Let’s remember our cause is great and noble.

      Brexit has been a godsend.

    154. Capella says:

      @ Petra @ RP – well said Petra, my thoughts exactly. RP has given us all so much insight into our history and political standing that we would never find elsewhere. A unique contribution.

      Others too provide valuable insight, such as you Petra and Nana and many more. Not forgetting Ken500.

      Thanks to Stu who provides the platform. It’s unique. Let’s not allow ourselves to be drawn into infighting. Divide and rule is always the way of the Westminster political class.

    155. manandboy says:

      This is an interesting read alright, though no access to ‘comments’. With 51% of schoolchildren nationalist & 37% Loyalist, Westminster can’t win democratically in NI, and with most of the border running through nationalist dominated areas, a hard border is not feasible without the presence of considerable numbers of the British Army. “Stupid stupid stupid English” That must be an Irish expression.

    156. john boy says:

      There seems to be a bit of a clique developing on Wings.

      If anyone dares to say a bad word about this guy Mr peffer, then they seem to be getting shot down in flames and being labelled some kind of agent working against the SNP.

      Mr peffer puts himself up their to be shot down. Some of his replies to certain individual are on the verge of inciting violence.

      If Mr peffer is big enough to give it out,,,,then he should be big enough to take it.

      And not depend on his little clique to keep digging him out of holes.

      So anyone who has a different opinion to the majority on here should be allowed to express that opinion.

    157. call me dave says:

      Cosy wee interview on shortbread between Douglas Fraser and Mr Gavin McCrone this morning.

      Worth a listen and I might post a link later.

      Not quite move along nothing to see here but it was all so tricky a problem at the time and still will be. 🙂

      Gavin not impressed with the WM negotiators and outlines three possible ways for Scotland but it’s so tricky!

      Oil fund is good opportunity missed.

      “Has it made you reconsider you position on Scottish Independence”?

      Well..erm..maybes aye! ACH it’s so tricky! 🙁

    158. Socrates MacSporran says:

      The thrwn auld bugger will probably not thank me for thi, but, leave Auld Boab Peffers alone. As another of the elderly awkward squad on here – although, my age begins with a seven, while Boab’s starts with an eight, can I say he, and I, have suffered more from the nefarious activities of Westminster than most of the posters on here.

      We are of an age that we still, to a certain extent, got Scottish History at school. Although, I must admit, Boab maybe paid more attention than I did, so, I (perhaps) and Boab (certainly) ken a wee bit mair about the subject than most.

      Also, we have been exposed togreater levels of bullshite in life and politics than most, we can smell it earlier, and, we have earned the right to call it out when it comes up.

      If you don’t like being telt-aff by your elders, it’s you that has the problem. Boab has earned the right to be short and sharp, and long may this continue.

      Arguing among ourselves has long been one of the things holding Scotland back. It is one of the facets of Scottish life which has held us back. Don’t take it personally.

      Finally, it isn’t Nicola Sturgeon’s fault we are where we are – she cannot call Indyref2 until we know exactly how bad a deal Brxit will be, and, until Theresa stops kicking the can towards the cliff edge and we know, Nicola cannot act.

    159. galamcennalath says:

      Nana says

      That is a MUST READ. In some ways it doesn’t surprise me about they type of EU laws which the UK opposed and were forced onto it.

      “According to the commons library just 4,514 out of 34,105 laws have been influenced by the EU, of which just 72 of them were forced on us against our will.”

      Things like …

      Ban on livestock growth-boosters

      Additives to mineral water must be safe

      Posted workers must be given the same pay and conditions

      … they should sound a big warning klaxon about the standards of safety and regulation we can expect once Brexit takes effect. As far as I can see the things they want to burn in a big bonfire of ‘EU red tape’ are things ordinary folks wouldn’t want removed!

    160. manandboy says:

      The Wings community is well informed, well educated – and ongoing – intelligent and articulate. As well as many others in Scotland and elsewhere, notably in Ireland and Wales, in Europe and the US and Canada, Wingers can see clearly that the writing is on the wall for the Union, and in consequence, for the British Establishment.
      In fact, already the walls protecting English Colonialism are crumbling, the more so as the scales fall from the eyes of an ever increasing number of the UK electorate, who now see clearly that the Ruling Class is not fit for purpose and that Irish Unity & Scottish Independence are virtually inevitable, and in the short term.

      What this means is that the tide which has favoured the suppression and exploitation of Scotland by Westminster, has turned. Not without typically nasty resistance from British Nationalism, nor without considerable efforts in the Unionist State media to completely distort the truth of ‘the writing on the wall’. But this era of change will not be denied either in its impact or its progress towards a new order.

      As for those who are seemingly determined to spoil Scotland’s Independence party, including by attempting to soil this otherwise excellent and very influential website, carry on, for no one can stop you. But there will be a day of disappointment for you which cannot be far off now. So reflect and consider carefully while there is still time. Everyone has the right to come to their senses. After all, isn’t that what Scotland’s Awakening is all about, and long may it continue, until we become truly one Nation again.

      Hail Alba.

    161. Ghillie says:

      If knowing some folk, having respect for some folk, and even liking some folk makes me part of a clique, gee whiz, I must be part of half a dozen cliques at least without even knowing it =)

      No body on this web site gets shot down (unless the moderator decides their posts are unacceptable) but some folk do get called out for being OTT with the denigration or for being simply mean spirited.

    162. Effijy says:

      Sunday Mail today, not mine, seems to be supporting Ruth Jung Un and the Tories over their incompetent Labour buddies?

      It seems that the Labour leadership are unashamedly left wing?

      They might have got somewhere had they been competent and their MP’s weren’t rejected Tories.

      Newspapers really are a waste of space in Westminster’s Scotland.

    163. john boy says:

      Sophie Ridge and Andrew Marr, both on for one you each and they managed to avoid talking about how Scotland Wales or N Ireland felt about Brexit.

    164. winifred mccartney says:

      We have all learned so much for RP, totally agree with Socrates MacSporran above and if you don’t like it don’t read it. On saying that we do need ‘bloody difficult men and women’ or we will continue to be trampled underfoot by bloody bad men and women.

    165. Gary45% says:

      I have just listened to LBC radio for the last time.
      They had “old has been Lipman” on talking about Labour, she mentioned a few names for a “New Party” Hodge, Watson the usual suspects etc, all Friends of Israel.(not a problem, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when the conversation is being oppressed by the Zionist lobby we have a major problem.
      Frank Luntz teaches the Zionists to simply , repeat, repeat often and loud to stop any discussion or criticism.
      Corbyn has to take the bull by the horns and silence the rise in a blinkered media.
      LBC= Leading Zionist Conversation.

    166. Sinky says:

      Richard Leonard is really thick On Politics Show and he says London Labour will block Section 30 if Scots Parliament votes to seek Indyref 2. Worth a watch on IPlayer

    167. john boy says:

      An Englishman called Dick just told me he personally would stop me having the right to have a vote on Scottish Independence.

      No fuckin chance Mr Englander.

    168. Kangaroo says:

      Just watched this video about how the Bankers have taken over. Goes deep into the history and is well worth the time.

      It is basically a radio program on the subject by the author William Stuart whose book is titled “The Invisible College”
      it’s less than $5 on kindle.

      To listen to the broadcast rating PG is 57mins long

    169. robbo says:

      Seriously wtf is going on ????

      Anyone watching that Hibs v Celtic game could see approx 30 stewards and police right next to the corner flag where incedent took place and they didn’t see who threw that buckfast bottle- give me peace. I saw at least six looking in that direction when it was thrown.

    170. Nana says:

      Last links for today

      They Fear Us!

      Cherry calls for Transport Secretary to be sacked

      Honda reveals it had plans to make electric cars in Swindon before plant closure

    171. Robert Peffers says:

      @Jomry says: 2 March, 2019 at 7:10 pm:

      ” … In fact I find your attempts to encourage uncritical adulation of all SNP policies and personnel decidedly unhealthy.
      Your knee-jerk reaction to comments critical of SNP and your often insulting attempts to denigrate the commenters are tedious in the extreme and do little to encourage me to be a regular visitor to this site.”

      I’m sure you think your comments are valid, Jomry, but as a declared member of the SNP you miss the most important points I have repeatedly stated here on Wings. The SNP is not led from the top but from the bottom.

      You are not alone in holding differing views from what you apparently think are those of the SNP leadership. I also have, over the years, disagreed with the party policies. The difference between you and I is I know these policies are those of the party and not of the leadership.

      Party policy can only be made, dropped or changed at National conference by a vote of the delegates sent to National Conference by the rank and file members of the branches and every member has the right to propose a motion at branch meetings. This, if it has a seconder, must be minuted and dealt with. Nicola Sturgeon has the exact same number of votes as any other party member and she has to follow the same procedure to get her proposals made party policy.

      Once dealt with at branch level a motion is either passed unopposed, is opposed and is debated and voted upon and either passed or voted down. If passed it goes on to Constituency Association and on to National Conference where it is dealt with in a democratic manner.

      Now you claim to be a party member – read your copy of the party rules.

      You cannot change party policy by debating it on an open internet forum like Wings. No one can. Policy can only be made or changed by democratic votes at National Conference. Party leadership members have exactly the same number of votes as every other party member.

      So the question remains, why, as a party member, do you harm the party by taking your opposing views to an open forum on the internet? Not only that but every elected to office SNP member can be directly communicated with by anyone and their contact details are easy to find.

      BTW: I don’t give a damn if you choose to scroll past my comments – we all have that choice on an open internet forum – BUT THE SNP DOESN’T HAVE THAT CHOICE AS ANY MEMBER WITH A SECONDER CAN HAVE THEIR VIEWS MUNUTED AND DEALT WITH AT BRANCH MEETINGS.

    172. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Agree with all above in support of RP.

      He has provided me (an a lot of others I suspect) with copious amounts of ammunition to shoot down British Nationalist bullshit and also to plant the seed in the minds of Soft NOs.

      Keep educating us Mr Peffers.

    173. john boy says:

      I personally am a member of the SNP, but,,,Wings is NOT an SNP forum.

      It is for those who support Scottish Independence. So to have views that are critical of SNP policies being posted on here should not come as a great shock to us.

      This is where the guy Peffer is getting it so wrong. He sees any criticism of the SNP as being anti Scottish or even anti Independence.

      Which is wrong.

      Even the owner of this website is not a member of the SNP.

    174. Dr Jim says:

      A lot of chicken and egg talk going on I notice so maybe there’s some context needed to what’s important

      Wings over Scotland the Independence website we all spout our opinions and thoughts on, which is great for us all, but would it have existed without the SNP, well no of course it wouldn’t because it was the SNP who made the hope of Independence more than hope, it was the SNP who made Independence the reality without which all the Independence sites wouldn’t be in existence so nobody would be getting the chance to air all those opinions and thoughts and nobody would have ever marched one yard with a flag or a banner or a dug wae a Saltire coat on it, or a pram with music blaring, or pushing our relatives in wheelchairs

      Make no mistake about this without the SNP it’s Over, Done, Kaput, a dead parrot, so when folk like Robert Peffers get annoyed at times because some folk look like they’ve become a little light on respect for the team that put us where we are and decrying that team for their efforts looks like you’re handing assistance to the opposition even though you might not mean to do that

      Everything that’s written on Wings is read by our opponents
      and those opponents will use and repeat evey word that looks like it even smells of division among the ranks and they love it, so all RP is saying in his own inimitable and sometimes brusque and blunt way is

      Don’t give the enemy anything they can hang on to, don’t give them in word or deed any hope of dissent, don’t give them air to breathe because in the final analysis without the SNP Independence will not happen……. ever ever ever

      The English in any political form have always won because of one thing, Unity behind whoever is in charge, even if that person is a complete and total monkey the English stand together behind that monkey and they win

      The trouble with Scotland is and always has been is *Too many mind* Mind what others think, mind people watching, mind if people think you’re not smart enough, mind what others are going to say or do

      Too many mind…….No mind just do

      Yeah I know be like water bend like a reed in the wind, but it works

    175. Iain mhor says:

      @Heart of Galloway 10:23pm

      It’s correct to be wary of polls, certainly individual polls.
      There are many ways to interpret the runes.
      In saying that, some might hazard an educated guess extrapolated from the data to “inform” strategy.
      For example; the data ‘appears’ to consistently show a preference in Scotland for devo/devo max and Scotland within the EU. Against that, Independence is second and does not exceed the 50% threshold.

      Now, on the few ‘polling analyses’ where Independence is the preferred option by a good majority, it is a very specific framing and context – stripped down, it is where devo and alternatives are not available. This “informs” the current situation and suggests campaigning tactics. Specifically the situation we are in now where there is probably no EU and devolved powers are being undermined.

      Fluffy & co will always push the “Scotland most devolved nation” and ‘gaining yet more powers’ narrative and confuse the “No deal” with the status quo (remaining in the EU) and it’s done for that very reason. The moment Scotland gets the idea there will be no EU and Holyrood is under threat of dissolution – No devo/No EU – then Indy support surges as the preferred option.

      My campaigning is focussed primarily on the inevitability of the emasculation of Holyrood, with a side order of Brexit (citizenship stripped & freedom of travel curtailed)
      The question of why the SNP do not push this narrative if it is so obvious; is it would require suggesting publically that they have few powers and will have even fewer. Not a great position to take and a dilemma indeed. They are focussed on the ‘valence’ politics of perceived good governnent, on the gamble that there is a tipping point which will take the Devo voters over to Independence.

      I understand the call for Indyref asap, but the polls don’t show it. They will when the penny drops amongst the electorate, but it must always be remembered that is a slow burner. We and the more politically ‘engaged’ see things faster hence the frustration. But I have no doubt the polls will swing and soon, as soon as Scotland susses there will be no more Europe and there is a Westminster coup undermining Holyrood. The polls to take note of will be where the context of Indy yes/no specifically excludes Devo/EU as an option – very few do because the results are extraordinary.

    176. Liam says:

      The English in any political form have always won because of one thing, Unity behind whoever is in charge, even if that person is a complete and total monkey the English stand together behind that monkey and they win

      As amply demonstrated by the polling which puts the utterly incompetent May and her catsack of fighting corrupt Tory bastards ahead in the polls.

      ‘Always keep a-hold of nurse for fear of finding something worse,'” Belloc

    177. defo says:

      The links between the City of London, Offshore trusts ala Panama papers, the accountancy World, HMRC,the HoC…

      I don’t like hyperbole, but this is Red pill stuff.
      It will change the way you see things
      Excellent film, which reveals just what we’re up against.

      The Spider’s Web: Britain’s Second Empire

    178. geeo says:

      Oh please, Iain Mhor, polling will never be consistently over 50%.

      Why not ?

      Well, because that DOES NOT SUIT THE NARRATIVE of those commissioning the bloody polls.

      Scenario: the Daily Mail Scotland commissions an indy Poll, which returns 60% Yes 40% No excluding DK’s

      Which of the following things will happen ?

      1. Daily Mail Front Page screaming : “Shock poll shows indy support at 60%, indy all but certain”!!

      2. “Poll, what poll”?

      Some polling companies have a database of previous respondants, which is even more ridiculous.

      Daily Record (to YouGov): “we would like to commission an indy poll please”

      YouGov: “certainly, what % of Yes/No would you like”?

      DR: “emm…how bout 45% Yes / 55% No”?

      YouGov: “yup, we can do that by phoning up those on our database, who previous voted absolutely vehemently No”

      DR headline: “45% Yes, massive blow to SNP as Scots totally reject indyref2/independence”

      According to you, Iain Mhor: “the polls just do not show enough support for Yes yet”

      Aye, right ye are then !


      Where are all the indy polls ?

    179. Lenny Hartley says:

      Geeo, the polls have been surprisingly accurate compared to actual election/referendum results heard that one will be out soon, its time for the Rev’s annual poll and there was a panelbase poll last weeks that had the hallmarks of the Rev’s questions. Will be interesting to see the results.

    180. Lenny Hartley says:

      Geoo forgot to say if your visiting all the island distilliary’s dont miss Arran, we have two now although the latest ones produce wont be ready for a wee while yet.

    181. Dr Jim says:

      If we ran countries based on polls we wouldn’t need politicians at all we could just have the one dictator who …Oh right aye that’s what we’ve got

    182. sassenach says:

      john boy @12-15 says “…the guy Peffer is getting it so wrong”.

      I don’t know much about you, but that sentence calling one of the site’s senior posters as “THAT GUY PEFFER” is an insult, and you should be ashamed of yourself – you are free to disagree with him but at least give him the respect due.

      Or are you up to something else on this site, yourself???

    183. john boy says:


      You kind of sum up the point I am making.


    184. Gary45% says:

      Mr Peffers, is a god send to this site, with his continuing posts on Scottish history.
      Some may disagree with him, but he deserves respect , no matter what you think.
      Divided we fall, if that’s your thoughts? go to another website.

    185. john boy says:


      Would you prefer I called him the almighty Mr peffer???

      What a fuckin tosser you are.

      Stop making an arse of yourself you fuckin halfwit

    186. geeo says:


      We are doing Campbeltown region next, perhaps at end of summer, but Arran is certainly near the top of next springs list, we (our whisky club) had about 8 bottles of Arran whisky at one point but they are almost all gone, very popular, especially the Amarone and Port casks.

      Best ‘hobby’ we have ever had..nomnomnom

    187. geeo says:

      @john boy 1.29

      Post reported.

    188. geeo says:

      1.26pm post by john boy also reported.

    189. Cactus says:

      Aye LOVE Wings Over Scotland.

      Wings has it all!

      Ah’ve no made it back HOME yet frae last yonder nicht, have staggered back intae The Clutha if anybuddies about furra Sunday cheers. They’ve got the afternoon open mic on for the kids… some cracking future musical talent in here ready to get out there. Just like indy Scotland they have the confidence.

      Adults on at 5pm… blues band… this could get messy 🙂

      LOVE The Clutha.

    190. Robert Peffers says:

      @Daisy Walker says: 2 March, 2019 at 7:30 pm:

      ” … I find your continued bullying of any person who holds genuine concerns about ‘the how’ we reach independence – deeply, deeply hurtful and upsetting. Bullying in my opinion.”

      Please yourself, so instead you choose to attempt to bully me and prevent me airing my opinions.

      ” … Blind loyalty, can be incredibly stupid loyalty – one has only to look at the Labour Party to see how that works.”

      That is a strange conclusion and the question has to be where did you get it from? I’ have no blind loyalty and my comments here on Wings make that crystal clear. I have never advocated blind loyalty – ever.

      I advocate taking your doubts and differences of opinion to where they may, perhaps, be listened to and acted upon by the people you are doubtful or critical of. That is to the FM herself, The SG and the SNP all of whom are easily contacted by Snail-mail, email or internet websites. I have never, in around 70 years failed to get a reply from the SNP upon contacting them. Better still by becoming a member of the party are using your rights, (as per rule book), at branch meetings.

      Views expressed on open internet forums will have no effect upon the FM/SG/SNP but will have effects upon the views of the internet forums readers and you, or anyone else, have no way of knowing how harmful your internet views can be for Scotland’s independence – because you have no idea who is reading them.

      ” … They say the price of democracy is eternal vigilance – that means holding our own parties to account as much as, or even more, than our opposition.”

      Now that bit is true – Thing is I hold them to account by direct interaction with them – not by airing them where the only beneficiaries are the Unionists who read such as Wings. Now I ask you just where did you get the idea that I do not criticise or question the FM/SG/SNP? I do but not on an open forum where the only effect is to reinforce the views of the Unionists. Ask yourself this wee question – Where did the MSM and Westminster controlled Broadcasters get the idea the SNP were engaged in a Civil War with itself?

      ” … If questions are not asked, if they are not transparent – then those who pull their punches under the guise of keeping their powder dry, will continue to do so for a very long time – and those who silence the questioners – will have assisted them greatly.”

      Yes! I agree wholeheartedly, Daisy Walker. Whatever gave you the idea I didn’t? It isn’t the first time I’ve got up on my feet in public and questioned a Hecht Heid Ane, of the SNP or SG. More so I’ve questioned them directly by phone, snail-mail, email or on internet sites. I just do not waste my time doing so where the only people to benefit from doing so are the Unionists.

      ” … How dare you dictate the way, the method, the venue by which members of the public raise their concerns about their elected politicians. How Dare You.”

      Why ever should I not? After all here you are dictating to me on an open forum that I shouldn’t do so. No doubt to the delight of the unionists, and the several undercover unionist agents who see their work rewarded by the argument such as you are stirring up. Get this right, I have never said anyone should not have doubts or differences of opinion with the FM/SG/SNP. I have only pointed out that in the first place it is absolutely futile to do so on an open internet forum and in the second place it actually only helps the unionists.

      … If this political blog site is the way or the place, they feel safest, or most comfortable to do so – then good for them.”

      Oh! Aye! Daisy Walker, so it is good for them right enough, thing is, is it good for the independence movement or is it good for the unionist cause?

      All indications are that it is bad for the independence cause and good for the unionist cause.

      ” … It is appalling that you would try to brow beat them into your chosen method and your method only. Appalling, and deeply anti-democratic.”

      But, of course, it won’t be appalling that you are now attempting to browbeat me and of course your browbeating will be properly democratic after a vote of a majority of one by you.

      Come off it – you are making false accusation right here and now.

      You accuse me of several things that simply are not true. See above. No where do I attempt to prevent anyone from holding or expressing views that are different from the FM/SG or SNP for I sometimes also find myself at odds with them. Thing is I take action that could perhaps influence them and I cannot do that by expressing them on an open internet forum. The only people to be influenced by reading open internet forums id the readership of the internet forum.

      However to express such differences on an open internet forum most certainly is helping the unionist cause. Which, of course, is a legitimate thing to do. The question then is why would a supporter of Scottish independence want to do so?

      Now I have always advocated that such doubts or differences of opinion can very easily be addressed directly to the FM/SG/SNP as these are all readily contactable directly.

      Now correct me if i an wrong but is that not a quite different thing from telling them the cannot, or should not, hold such doubts or differences of opinion?

      Let’s be quite clear – the SNP has not always been internally of the same opinions throughout the party. Did they not expel several rather more militant factions like, “Siol nan Gaidheal”?

      Did they not also expel such as Alex Salmond and Margo McDonald as a left-wing faction? However, at present there is no major splits within the party even although it is acknowledged the SNP is compose of a wide swatch of the political spectrum.

      Yet the MSM and unionist broadcasters were pushing very hard the story of an SNP internal civil war. Where were they getting these ideas from? Well reading Wings with two out of every three comments claiming that the FM was doing nothing and the party didn’t want independence certainly didn’t help.

      Yet every commenter on Wings that had doubts or different views were free to contact the FM/SG/SNP directly. The point being that the posts on Wings did not change the views of the FM/SG/SNP but communicating with them directly would have an effect if enough such contacts were made.

      Now why would I not defend myself against a load of lies even if the liar claims to not ever post again?

    191. manandboy says:

      I read somewhere in passing that in any relationship between a man and a woman, the most dangerous time for the woman is when she threatens to leave.

      In the relationship between Scotland and England this ‘most dangerous time’ is already well known by everyone in the Independence movement.

      Since the first Indy2014 campaign began in 2012, the treatment of Scotland’s independence movement by Westminster, principally with its relentless barrage of lies, threats, warnings and smears, mainly through State media, but also in the Westminster Parliament itself, notably of the First Minister, of Alex Salmond, MP’s, MSP’s, the Yes campaigners, AUOB and others, is a clear expression of the kind of abuse referred to above.

      The most dangerous time is when Scotland threatens to leave the Union.

      But, unlike in 2014, this time, it is already very different, and will continue to be so, and even more so, as England wades ever deeper into the Brexit quicksand.

    192. Confused says:

      speculation from a guy musing on how brexit could affect the pounds “reserve currency status” – its only the first part. I don’t think he ever adds in

      “and once Scotland fucks off with all the real wealth, its truly screwed”

      having a nice, hard, (oil backed), “reserve” currency was GREAT
      – so great, you could stop MAKING THINGS and doing all that manufacturing and basic capitalism nonsense (and you could fuck the working class by removing their jobs – try going on strike now!)
      – pull in all the worlds dirty money and fill your pockets via a series of asset bubbles (deliberately created by the bank of england)

      the raucous and insanely funny thing about this is how – the little englanders have NO understanding of how things really work – even if you explained it to them, it would fail

      – they thought


      (because all those commonwealth immigrants came from europe, didnt they?!?!)

      => britain is an empire again … mafeking is relieved … nyasaland rejoins the commonwealth …

      mabel, whys the stuff on amazon prices the same in pounds as dollars
      ah dunno luv …
      -shall we book a flat in spain this summer … whynot?
      – aargh!

      In the same week, we now have the scottish pound /poon/groat/merk/shekel being talked about (showing our leaders ARE on the ball) – and yet – EVERYONE IS STILL WHINING

      – the people who say “you cannot use the pound” are now saying “fancy a cheeky little currency union”?

      – and pricks on places like Bella are whining as well – dunno the reason TBH – it’s a constant whine isn’t it

      cleverer trolls will now attack “the scottish pound” as being “unworkable” as it would be too HARD – we jist canny win – as if that’s not bad enough, there’s even more of that bloody oil

      – when will this curse be lifted?

      The doom of Scotland is that once independent, it cannot avoid being extremely wealthy – it’s got too much; refugees and economic migrants from the south will become a problem – they will cross the solway in little zodiacs – the only solution, the solway canal, deep and wide.

    193. orri says:

      The major problem with polls is they can be gamed.
      They are adjusted to reflect a pinpoint in time. So EU wote, Westminster vote, Holyrood, sex age at all. Those votes are meant to be private and it’s likely even the polling companies have to “forget” what you told them. If you want to bias a poll against independence then say you voted SNP and YES and, perhaps, Remain but say you’re doing none of that if asked again. Pretend to have changed and it’ll have more impact than being put in a mass of honest/unchanging voters.

    194. Hamish100 says:


      john boy– yes he is up to something!

    195. Hamish100 says:

      john boy

      out of order. Lost the argument

    196. Cubby says:

      Jezza goes missing.

      John boy appears.

      What have they both got in common – they love swearing at other posters.

    197. Ghillie says:

      G night john boy =)

    198. john boy says:

      Usual bunch of wankers need to hold hands for a bit of unity.

      Too scared to act alone.

      I bet you wankers were slapped about at school.

    199. wull2 says:

      We are all still here, not divided, just quietly waiting to be told vote YES.

    200. Cubby says:

      1. According to the Britnats an independent Scotland is the only country in the world that cannot manage its own currency.

      2. According to the Britnats an independent Scotlands oil and gas is worthless.

      Just how big a halfwit do you have to be to believe this nonsense.

      Or is the truth really that large sections of the Scottish population have been conditioned to feel worthless as Scots by non stop propaganda through the previous generations. British is good Scottish is rubbish – that has been the message for hundreds of years and continues to this day. Racist propaganda.

    201. Cactus says:

      NOW is the time furra song like:

      This goes out to everybuddy…

      Do it do it.

    202. Capella says:

      OT Just listened to part 2 of Misha Glenny’s “The Invention of Britain”. I missed part one but it will be cracker if part two is typical. The utter confusion in Mr Glenny’s mind between England, Britain and the United Kingdom is incredible.

      If anyone doubted the value of Robert Peffers’ repeated description of the true significance of “Britain” and “United Kingdom” then listen to Part 2.

      If you suffer from high blood pressure then this is definitely not for you. But the fact that it’s been made and broadcast now does indicate the high level of anxiety in London about our “precious union”.

    203. wull2 says:

      Dear Cactus, thanks for the song, I saw them live a few times in the old Apollo along with my other band at the time Yes, I am still a YES man.

    204. Robert Peffers says:

      @sassenach says: 3 March, 2019 at 7:53 am:

      ” … If I had to decide who’s posts I trust or not regarding indy then RP’s are at the top. Keep on “pishing”, Robert!”

      You have no idea how much of a laugh your comment got here, sassenach.

      However, I’ll need to give a wee, or should that be wee wee, explanation.

      One of the many illness’ and disabilities I’ve collected as I get older is an enlarged prostate. So you will now understand the laughter at my own expense. I have always had the good fortune to be able to laugh at my own expense I’m glad to say.

      Regarding the current bad reactions to my comments about adverse criticism of the FM/SG/SNP on Wings some of it is deliberately destructive but most is probably just a lack of comprehension of what exactly I did comment.

      I’ve never said people should not disagree with the FM/SG/SNP views. Just they should not, if they really are indy supporters, do so on an open internet forum as doing so only reinforces unionist beliefs. Not only that but doing so will achieve absolutely nothing.

      Our FM, SG and SNP all are easy to communicate with and doing so might have an effect in changing opinions – commenting on open internet forums will not change their opinions but will give the unionists the opinion that the indy support is fighting within itself.

      It isn’t my fault that some people have poor reading comprehension skills. Quite simply I have never commented that people should not hold conflicting views – just not to air them on open forums and who can deny there are often more commenters on Wings running down the FM/SG/SNP than all the unionist MSM and broadcasters put together.

    205. manandboy says:

      OT. With apologies. Music for the Many

      Cutting funding for music tuition in schools by Councils is not short-sighted, it’s blindness. Music is food for the mind, heart & soul of a child, and feeds the confidence, their self-esteem, their performance in other subjects, the formation and building of friendships & community – it just goes on and on, and all of it is so enriching to the child, their parents & wider family, their classmates and the whole school and beyond.

      Kevin Pickford says: “Music is such a part of everyones every day life and whether you create it, perform it or appreciate it all of us use it as a vehicle towards our health and well being. The fact that its value doesn’t equate on a spread sheet and cannot be quantified by figures leaves our politicians and governing bodies unable to see its potential and importance in our lives. Another totally missed opportunity to give our children a full and balanced education in life skills. It is the only true world language and any barriers or differences in culture or beliefs have no boundaries. Its such an experience to meet people who only speak a different language, be given some music and all play and perform as if everyones known each other all their lives. Whenever there is a disaster or desperate need to raise money how often is music and the arts used to achieve this. Look at Live Aid, Comic Relief, Children in Need and more recently Ariana Grande and other Artists after the manchester bombing.”

      Kids are worth every penny.

    206. Cactus says:

      How ye doin’ too dear wull2, that would have been excellent back in the day dude, ah wisnae auld enough back then, aye am NOW though. Cheers for the Contact bro, ah needed that… Jodie knows 2. 🙂

      Sunday Sunday Sunday Wings.


    207. Hamish100 says:

      john boy says:
      3 March, 2019 at 2:19 pm
      Usual bunch of wankers need to hold hands for a bit of unity.

      Too scared to act alone.

      I bet you wankers were slapped about at school.

      eh naw! Lost the argument again auld son!!

      Who are you acting for!!!!

    208. john boy says:

      Vote Yes in Indyref2,,,no matter how big a wanker you are.

      No wit a mean?

    209. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Capella @ 14:32,

      Err, what do we do if we refuse to sign-in to the BBC snoopathon?

      Never mind, if the programme was as scrappy and slapdash as the 1st episode, it can be happily missed. Better for the blood pressure too, I expect.

      Like pretty much everything on R4 these days, it’s aimed at pandering to the English Home Counties. Nobody else.

    210. Hamish100 says:

      john boy says:
      3 March, 2019 at 2:19 pm
      Usual bunch of wankers need to hold hands for a bit of unity.

      Too scared to act alone.

      I bet you wankers were slapped about at school.

      eh naw! Lost the argument again auld son!!

      Who are you acting for!!!!

    211. john boy says:

      Ham dish


    212. geeo says:

      like all his chums before him, wee john boy going out in a blaze of expletives….

      Altogether now….”g’night john boy”…!

    213. galamcennalath says:

      In Chewin’ the Fat there’s the standard sketch where the young tradesman always ends up taking the banter too far, goes OTT. Trolls seem to be a bit like that. They pretend (often unconvincingly) to to going along with normal independista line of argument, then it all goes too far.

      Whichever troll training school is defining the tactics … they’re af’y shite at it.

    214. Cactus says:

      Here we go again wull2:

      Fuck sake with added exclamation… some of these youth harmonies are kickass. They’re doing awesomely amazing operatic vocals too!

      Mon the synth LZ.

    215. john boy says:



    216. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 15:19,

      Know what you mean. There isn’t a “school” in this case though, I reckon, it’s the same one bampot who keeps returning, but evidently has learnt nothing from one instantiation to the next.

    217. john boy says:


      Brilliant vid

    218. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The widely reported intention of Mrs May to say “no” to another referendum seems odd at this moment. Might there have been a
      pre-emptive little push here from the SNP,. I see it’s already got small Dick out making an arse of himself.

    219. Hamish100 says:


      john senior will be so upset that you have lost the plot!! sue ellen too

      night night


    220. yesindyref2 says:

      Attention Lurkers – VORSICHT! ACHTUNG!

      Rules of the Forum as defined by the few for the many:

      1). The SNP are Gods, you must worship every word they utter
      2). Sturgeon is the Anointed One you must fall down in worship
      3). Robert Peffers is her Chosen One you must adore and venerate him
      4). There is a group of his Apostles, you must not contradict him or them. Bring your own sick bag
      5). If you don’t support the SNP in everything they do and say or worship the Chosen One and his Apostles you are a Britnat and a Yoon
      6). If you support the Conservatives, Labour, LibDems, Greens or are non-aligned you are an atheist and will not pass through the Pearly Gates. Go away.
      7). The Second Independence Referendum may come in 3 weeks, 3 months, 3 years or 300 years. This is the will of the Anointed One. You will obey or be assimilated
      8). If you are accused of being an arsehole by the Chosen One or his Apostles, then you are. If you defend yourself the Apostles will eat you for breakfast.
      9). If you are accused of being a fake Indy supporter, then go hence from this place and vote NO. You know you want to.
      10). The purpose of the postings below the line on this forum is to reduce support for Indy. They want to be the 15.

      (note: if you don’t get the last one, then remember the previous was the 45).

      These are the 10 Commandments issued from on high, with apologies to religious people

      (If you want to know what the genuine rules of the forum are as described by the owner of the blog, click on the link below and go down to “COMMENTING” and particualrly “ETIQUETTE AND FORMATTING”)

    221. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Every body should contact Labour MPs and MSPs asking themif they beleieve in the Claim Of Right and the UN Charter on the absolute right of all peoples to decide how and by whom they are governed without interferencee from anybody else.

    222. Cactus says:

      Let’s keep the theme a goin’ on excellent Wingers:

      “Say what you see”, said Roy.

      The N-R-G.

    223. Robert Peffers says:

      @john boy says: 3 March, 2019 at 9:50 am:

      I won’t even bother to reply to you, john boy.

      Other than to say if you cannot make reasoned points then no one can make reasoned replies. However, If you consider making a reasoned point I may attempt to make a reasoned retort.

    224. wull2 says:

      While I was playing it Cactus I scrolled down. To find a lot of the music I was bought up with, like Pink Floyd.
      Thanks again for the memories.

    225. Capella says:

      @ RJS – you used to be able to listen to the radio without signing in. Has that changed now that it is called “Sounds”(stupid name)?

      I did register some time ago on the basis that I know they know where I’m listening from anyway. I don’t watch their TV or iPlayer so it’s not a problem. I don’t pay the TV tax.

    226. starlaw says:

      Yes Indy ref 2. 3-31

      There may not be an Indy ref 2. Plenty things going on that we know nothing about. Pay heed to Ian Blackford when he states time after time ” Scotland WILL NOT be dragged out of the EU, perhaps he means it.

    227. Gary45% says:

      You tube, Greta Van Fleet.
      Some young heeds that are miles beyond their years.
      I heard them in the local HMV last year, I thought I was listening to Led Zep.

    228. Cactus says:

      Excellent… and more tae the groovy memories bro:

      Let’s start another Sunday rammy…

      Dinnae haud back like folks.

      SAY what ye mean.

      i is coming.

    229. Cactus says:

      Aye Gary, some smashin’ high end vocals frae Greta.

      There’s still some gallus stuff that makes it thru:

      Good call.

    230. Robert Peffers says:

      @john boy says: 3 March, 2019 at 12:15 pm:

      ” … I personally am a member of the SNP, but,,,Wings is NOT an SNP forum.”

      Oh! There’s a surprise! Have you the faintest idea of what pish you are posting, john boy? You quite obviously do not.

      Best to keep quiet when people suspect you are a fool. If you speak up you just confirm their suspicions. You are out of your depth here john boy. You cannot even grasp what the argument actually is.

    231. Gary45% says:

      Man I never knew this was an SNP love fest site.
      I thought the whole idea was, this is a pro Indy site, there is only ONE party who can give Scotland Independence, that party happens to be the SNP, anyone feel free to criticise them, when the criticism I justified, and not some rehashed Brit Nat bollocks.

      11) Free Curly Wurlys on the day the Yoons make sense.

    232. wull2 says:

      I saw many bands live in the Apollo, From Tangerine Dream to the Shadows. but one of the bands is a band I saw upstairs in Clouds was (Focus)

    233. Proud Cybernat says:

      We see you.

      Your disruption tactic won’t work and it never will.

      (You know who you are).

    234. Hamish100 says:

      Dave McEwan Hill:

      Claim Of Right and the UN Charter on the absolute right of all peoples to decide how and by whom they are governed without interferencee from anybody else.

      Spot on. Normal rules do not apply to Scotland if you belong to the Labour Party.

      Leonard must be competing with Wullie Rennie for the worst interviewee on the box.

    235. Gary45% says:

      Tange at the Apollo, saw them I there 3 times I think.
      You tube, Big Wreck “War Baby” amazing version of the Tom Robinson song.

    236. Iain mhor says:


      I posted the reason the polls do not show 50+ is because the majority include forms of devo within them. In the interests of brevity I did not delve into the deeper psephological reasons. Polls can, do and will show majority support for Independence ahead, but those interpretations the public don’t get to see. It’s the reporting of them and the analysis that is manipulated. Polls don’t show, they suggest and from the ‘suggesting’ call for deeper analysis.

      So, much like “the headline is always a lie” anything prefixed with “Polls Show” or “Polls say” is always a lie. I understand the revulsion and suspicion of polls here, but they are extremely useful tools and can be used as much to effect for either side. It’s a case of taking pains to analyse them.
      On closer scrutiny they “suggest” that where the only option is Independence or Union, Independence leads by a good margin. I don’t mean a question buried within a plethora of others in a survey or poll; I mean when there is unequivocally no other option to take. Polls do suggest Scotland overwhelmingly wants its own government in preference to direct government rule from Westminster. Peering deeper, it does not even seem negotiable. Even a cursory reading of the analysis of Curtis et al backs that up.

      There are no Misreporting Scotland stories with “Scotland does not want direct WM rule” because they control the narrative and yes, commissioned polling can control the narrative depending on how the questions are presented and reported, But even then, a half decent psephologist can read the alternative runes buried in the data.
      As a side note, there is some interesting data on perceptions on Scotland’s perceived wealth. Again another controlled narrative, but the data suggest a much heavier weighting to Independence where unrelated questions relate to control of finance vs Barnett’ (Scotland viewed as too poor)

      Tl;dr – Take Devo away and when there is no other option but Independence, Scotland prefers that to direct rule – until then it’s an even split. Convince Scotland it is wealthy enough and Independence is the preferred option. I tentatively suggest that is exactly the narrative being played at the moment by the SNP – hence the push about Scotlands missing and stolen wealth, fiscal autonomy, the devolution power grab, the failures of the Smith commission and the ignoring of Scotlands voice at Westminster – Tactics informed by pollling data, not random inventions.

    237. Robert Peffers says:

      @sassenach says:3 March, 2019 at 1:17 pm:

      ” … john boy @12-15 says “…the guy Peffer is getting it so wrong”.
      I don’t know much about you, but that sentence calling one of the site’s senior posters as “THAT GUY PEFFER” is an insult, and you should be ashamed of yourself”

      Och! Sassenach, I don’t bother if folk show respect or not. It is of no consequence. Thing is, john boy, doesn’t really understand what the argument is about. Mind you he is not alone.

      The accusations range from me being 100% behind everything and anything the SNP has to say to me attempting to chase people away from Wings and bullying them.

      Yet there isn’t a bit of evidence to back any of that up.

      All I have done, and consistently so, is make the point that to keep running down the FM/SG/SNP on an open internet forum harms the indy movement and helps the unionist cause and that if they want to influence the SNP, whether government or party, they are not going to do so by posting on an internet open forum.

      I also always make the point that the FM, SG and SNP are all very much approachable by snail-mail, email and via their individual websites. By contacting them they can, and will, stand every chance of influencing their opinions but will never do so by posting on an open internet forum.

      Which beggars the question if I’m not bullying people but advising that their actions are helping the opposition just why are they getting so angry and why making false accusations?

      My posts are there to read – have I ever told anyone not to post? Have I accused anyone of being a Troll? Have I said it is wrong to have doubts or differences of opinion?

      The answer is no I have only said it is not good to do so on an open forum and thus help the unionist cause. It would be a miracle if the Westminster Establishment did not have some of their many so called security services here on Wings.

      They have, after all, been caught out having agents in far less threatening to the Establishment groups. Like for example CND. There are children in Scotland whose father was a proven undercover Westminster Establishment agent. Do people actually imagine I’m making this stuff up?

    238. Robert Kerr says:

      @ain mhor

      I put it to you that the polls do not move upwards due to the selection of respondents.

      The polling companies use data-mining to select a sufficiently anti-independence group.

      We cannot assume an honest random selection of respondents. That is a level of naivety that sits ill with our experience of the UK State.

    239. Robert Peffers says:

      @john boy says: 3 March, 2019 at 1:29 pm

      … What a fuckin tosser you are.
      Stop making an arse of yourself you fuckin halfw”

      John boy – take a wee bit of friendly advice. Behave yourself like an adult for you are well on the way to being removed from this blog for the way you treat other commenters.

      No one gets barred for their views but they do for how they treat other commenters.

    240. Lenny Hartley says:

      Geeo if your coming to Arran (same for any Wosser) five us a shoutvand i will show you about.

    241. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Capella @ 15:52,

      Apparently so. I followed your link and hit the “You now need to sign in” block. (I re-tried just now and encountered thes same thing.)

      Which is a damned liberty, given that you don’t even need a licence to listen to the radio. (Though just wait when it’s all-digital.)

      I’m seriously thinking about complaining to the Data Commissioner about this unwarranted intrusion by the BBC. Even for TV catchup viewing, the only thing they should be entitled to ask for is the licence number.

      Not so much “Auntie” these days, more like “Big Brother”. Creepy.

    242. galamcennalath says:

      Apparently (didn’t see it, just read online) Andrew Marr asked Liam Fox ….

      “Will the government be breaking a promise if Brexit is delayed?”

      It it weren’t so serious, that could be taken as humour. What a stupid, irrelevant and pointless question!

      Basically, what does it matter if the Tories break yet another promise? They break promises, that’s what they do, habitually. To a Tory, a promise is just a temporary statement to smooth things over, to be put aside when something else is in focus.

      Marr knows well the Tory unofficial motto is … Per Fidem Decipere .

    243. wull2 says:

      Gary45%, Tangerine Dream was the first band that in can remember using lasers, I bought the Albums but had to stop listening to them because the music confused my brain, which was not hard.

    244. call me dave says:


      Just caught twitchy Dickie’s interview with Gordon BBC Brewer there…really? 🙁

      He really said all that? He must think he’s Walter Mitty

      PS: For younger viewers. See also Danny Kaye.

      The name Walter Mitty and the derivative word “Mittyesque”
      have entered the English language, denoting an ineffectual person who spends more time in heroic daydreams than paying attention to the real world, or more seriously, one who intentionally attempts to mislead or convince others that he is something that he is not.

    245. Cactus says:

      Many of us are SO misunderstood.

      We have ways of stimulating, all the clues are in there.

      Think of a song by Mick Hucknall (chorus begins with “If”)

      Robert knows and sometimes things are necessary.

      Dinnae take things personally all ye groovy cools.

      All will be shared after indy. 😉

      To understand.

    246. sassenach says:

      Robert Peffers @2-48

      So glad I gave you a bit of a laugh, I feel (being 80 myself!) a somewhat kindred spirit in your water output ‘difficulties’!!

      Carry on, Sir, and keep holding idiots to account.

    247. Cactus says:

      To follow up on To understand…

      Just give as good as ye get..

      We’re brainstorming.


    248. jfngw says:

      I hear the Labour branch leader had a towering interview on the BBC today, he was truly exposed as Biggus Dickus.

    249. Dorothy Devine says:

      Cactus , young man I had money on you being the last man standing but I didn’t think you would still be on the go 24 hours later.
      Do you never sleep?

    250. Dr Jim says:

      UK to join the Euro

      Alex Cole Hamilton says after Brexit his party and others will campaign to rejoin the EU but the problem for Alex Cole Hamilton is he says Scotland will be forced to join the Euro if we join the EU post Independence, so does that not mean by his logic the UK would be forced to do the same

      There are lots of adjectives to describe Alex Cole Hamilton’s stupidity and I’d type them here, but I’d run out of Internet

    251. galamcennalath says:

      The British English Broadcasting Corporation devoting a lot of time to knife crime. Sadly, in response to another teenage death.

      On their main broadcasts, allegedly targeting the whole UK, they report raising knife crime as a national issue, across the whole country. Fair enough, if they made it clear that was England. However, since it’s a UK wide broadcast, without clarifying the geographic scope it’s highly misleading.

      Knife crime in Scotland is being tackled and is showing reductions. Yet no where (that I have seen or heard) do they make this clear.

      Basically, they make absolutely no attempt to present UK level news, the focus is on their England.

      They are not supposed to be the EBC. You’d never know.

    252. Cactus says:

      Hey Dorothy, no sleepy when ahm in the groove, ahm still stoatin’ about ma city, presently in The Scotia for the live music xx.

      Aye farewelled mes amis at Queen St station earlier, then went for a sit down on Freedom Square furra chill… the good people had set up a couple of stalls to feed and give company to our homeless people. Good guys.

      Gonna try powerin’ on thru… although battery is getting low:

    253. john boy says:

      If anything will get the Polls moving,it will be when an Englishman standing at a podium, looking straight down the camera and telling us (in his Dick English accent) that he will do everything within his powers to thwart a referendum on Scottish Independence.

      Go ahead Dick,,,I fuckin dare you.

    254. Dr Jim says:

      Remainers in the UK Labour party and the Tory party don’t want to leave the EU yet they don’t want Scotland to join the EU

      They say the UK will be poor if it’s not in the EU yet they say they’re going to put all their efforts into making sure Scotland stays in the poor UK

      Now you can only come to two conclusions with these statements from the *British* parties, either they just hate Scotland a lot and want us living in poverty or Scotland has got something they want to stop England and its territories becoming poorer

      In each case it does show up something else whether remainers or leavers both sets of these people hate the idea Scotland should be *allowed* a choice

      Why do these people hate us so much

    255. jfngw says:


      If you want to listen to live radio on your computer then try this link.

      Just type in the radio station you want and use something like VLC to play it (if you use windows 10 you just need to click on one of the AAC format links). You don’t have to go near iplayer or log in to anything.

    256. Capella says:

      @ RJS – I can’t remember now why I decided to register. I used my own name and post code. But there was nothing to stop me registering as Elizabeth Windsor, similar postcode. However, I assume they can trace exactly where I live and who I am but have to maintain the fiction that they don’t snoop.

      I suggest Philip Battenberg as a suitable nom de plume.

    257. Capella says:

      @ jfngw – Thx. Will have a look at that link. As it happens, it was a catch-up link I posted since I usually listen to live radio on my radio 🙂

      But, since I have already registered I can listen to catch up BBC radio without any problem – other than the hypertension effects of the rubbish they spout!

    258. john boy says:

      English news still obsessed with Corbyn,,,the Jews,,,and anti-somethin.

      You must admit,,,the Labour Leader takes some pounding on a daily basis down there from their Tory media.

      It’s relentless.

      He also got walloped with an egg today.

      And Have you ever heard a Jew sympathising with the Palestinians on the Gaza Strip???

      No,,,me neither.

    259. jfngw says:


      The reason I gave the links is that the BBC licence is vague about its wording, it just says the use of iplayer and doesn’t mention using it for radio only. If I had no licence I would steer clear of iplayer as I wouldn’t want to caught by some vague technicality.

      I do have a licence but don’t use iplayer out of principle, because they are tracking your usage and what you watch. This is also true for all the other services like Netflix, but that is my choice to join not an extortion charge as per the BBC.

    260. Cactus says:

      Powerin’ down people, gonna sit back and absorb the most excellent live music back in the Clutha. Glasgow rocks!

      Gettin’ down with the bluesy groovy.

      Perceived misbehaving encouraged le soir.

      It’s Sunday!

      MWAH X.

      Ahm gone.

    261. jfngw says:


      Just out of interest, the radiofeeds site does not broadcast anything, it just provides direct links to the servers for each station. The BBC Radio 2 one is as below, you can probably guess the names of the other services.

    262. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Capella @ 19:05,

      Yes, apparently there have been many humorous registrations, “Michael Mouse” etc. If I were ever inclined to register, I think I would be tempted to use some disparaging invention considerably more robust, too rude to quote even on here! =grin=

      jfngw @ 19:00,

      Accessing live radio on computer isn’t too hard. Rhythmbox will do the necessary on Linux, for example. It’s accessing catchup of BBC radio in particular which is the problem, because it’s now “gated”.

    263. Iain mhor says:

      @Robert Kerr 5:07pm

      I did acknowledge that commissioned polls may set their own agenda. However there is a wealth of difference betweeen a simple two-way poll purely on Indy yes/no and the very many in-depth polls on a plethora of subject matter. These data sets contain a wealth of buried information and the polls and surveys are not always conducted to inform purely on “independence” views.
      For that data, it is not in the interests of polling companies to target at tangents outwith the demographics the client is interested in. But absolutely, if the client’s brief is a specific demographic and a questionnaire purely to show support for Indy in a poor light, then that can and is done.
      That is a small subset of the myriad polls conducted though. Those whose reputation and careers rely on accurate reading of the runes can spot those from a mile off and weight accordingly. It is this additional wealth of data and these broad analyses which are of great interest. Wings itself conducts polls, every government conducts surveys and polls, many only tentatively connected to the Independence question.
      It is the heurustic aggregation and collation of such data and their patterns which informs government and business. Whether its argued that it is driving opinion or reflecting it, either way the data can be used as a tool for prognosis and a relatively accurate one at that.
      The alternative is deciding all projections of business and governments are based on “garbage in garbage out” sticking a finger in the air and gambling on gut instinct.

    264. Dorothy Devine says:

      Cactus, your song made me smile! Night ,night!

    265. Petra says:

      Amazing how the SNP manage to do so well under the circumstances. Take a look at what they’re up against.

      …”While the Tories took in almost £7.4m in total in three months, Labour took in just £1.6m, with trade union donations falling to an 18-year low. The SNP took in £15,240 in gifts from three donors over the three-month period. The Scottish Greens registered £48,541 over the same period, with donations coming from the party’s six MSPs.”…


      ”New figures from the Electoral Commission reveal that the secretive Scottish Unionist Association Trust (SUAT) at the heart of a “dark money” row donated another £12,424.72 to the Scottish Tories in the last three months of 2018. Since 2001, the trust has donated £350,187.66 to the party, but there have a number of questions over where that money came from.

      Because the SUAT is not registered with Companies House, the Financial Conduct Authority, or OSCR – Scotland’s charity watchdog – there is no public information available about the people who currently manage the organisation, and no public accounts to indicate donors, or assets.

      Last year the SNP Westminster leader Ian Blackford left Theresa May squirming when he brought up the trust in the House of Commons. He said the Tories were “systematically shielding their donations from public scrutiny”. About an hour after that exchange, the SUAT released a statement through the PR company of trustee Peter Duncan (above), a former Tory MP. It revealed that the trust was formed in 1968 from “assets of the [then] Scottish Unionist Association, primarily sales of property assets”.

      SUAT added that those assets had been invested and the proceeds were now “available to further the aims of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party.” It insisted: “All UK taxation liabilities have been and continue to be met in full.”

      The chairman of the SUAT is Robert Miller-Bakewell, who is also the chairman of the Scottish Borders Conservative and Unionist Association. He is an investment analyst and racecourse director and a former consultant at Merrill Lynch, the Bank of America’s wealth management division. He was formerly a member of the Tory executive in 2000 but left in a furious row over infighting.

      The Electoral Commission figures also revealed that the Tories had taken £146,750 of donations in November and December from Lubov Chernukhin, the wife of one of Russian president Vladimir Putin’s former ministers, eight months after the Skripal poisonings.

      The party also took £150,000 from Ann Said, the wife of Syrian-born former arms dealer Wafic Said, a family friend of Bashar Assad, who has been banned from donating because he is a tax resident in Monaco.

      While the Tories took in almost £7.4m in total in three months, Labour took in just £1.6m, with trade union donations falling to an 18-year low. The SNP took in £15,240 in gifts from three donors over the three-month period. The Scottish Greens registered £48,541 over the same period, with donations coming from the party’s six MSPs.

      Meanwhile, SNP MP Martin Docherty-Hughes used a debate in the House of Commons to ask the Government about the use of unincorporated associations to discreetly funnel money into political parties. The MP raised Richard Cook, chair of the Constitutional Research Council, the group behind a controversial £435,000 donation to the DUP, describing him as a “fraudster” and “cowboy”.

    266. jfngw says:


      You could try Kodi with the iplayer add on, it doesn’t ask you to log in and you can access the radio programmes. It’s not as easy to find the programmes though, you need to know the title to find it in a search.

    267. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Can anyone who was at the Dows gathering last night please give their honest thoughts on it as a venue?

      It wasn’t quite as busy as I’d hoped but busy enough that we got a proper feel of how it works as a space. A few niggles can be sorted (e.g. no draught lager?! Hand dryers in Ladies toilet not working) directly with the management but I really just want to get some sense of how folk felt about it overall.

      It’s been five years since the big night in the Counting House and this is probably the closest we’ve come to identifying a very central place which doesn’t charge over the odds for a drink and is quite flexible about us self-catering etc.

      Please let me know. Way things are panning out, we could be making use of it again before too long.


    268. galamcennalath says:

      Petra says

      the secretive Scottish Unionist Association Trust (SUAT) at the heart of a “dark money” row donated another £12,424.72 to the Scottish Tories in the last three months of 2018

      Sickening that there is a system which allows politics to be highjacked by rich donations of dark money.

      For IndyRef2 we can expect a fortune to be spent attempting to save their Union.

      On the face of it, it’s a threat which wasn’t there to the same extent in 2014 (thinking about inept VoteNoBorders). However, it’s also an opportunity. My gut feeling is that most Scots won’t like the idea of big money trying to buy favour and influence. It goes against our basic egalitarian, and underlying Presbyterian dare I say, instincts, if we identify and call out ‘mysterious’ and faceless campaigns then they could do more damage to the UK cause, than for it, IMO.

    269. Capella says:

      Re politicians, dark money, the secret state, tax havens and other corruptions, “The Spider’s Web: Britain’s Second Empire” is worth another look, as someone recently linked. 1hr 18 mins

      None of them ever go to jail. But since they make the laws that isn’t a surprise.

    270. Malcolm Hughes says:

      This is probably my first post on Wings. I celebrate its setting up and function. It is appreciatd. So much is revealed about people and their attitudes and character; a useful social reference. Thank you Wings, i see the Setem Up and the Knockem down. Good.
      I note the idiots and the bullies. The censors, liberals and the nasties.All getting an airing, good.
      My wheelchair is my chariot of revolution, my mind a dynamo of chaos, my heart a compass of Scotland’s Independence, and my hand the sword of Freedom!
      All of my Age Addition Pension goes to the Indy cause! All of it, 25 p per week.
      I could fall over and stop the traffic.

    271. Robert Kerr says:

      @Iain mhor

      I find your response quite insulting.

      The really basic question is why the reported support for independence reflected in the polls is not rising.

      That is quite specific and I postulate that it is held low by the polling organisations and doesn’t reflect reality.

      Your response is full of technobable e.g “heurustic aggregation and collation of such data and their patterns”

      These polls are a weapon used by the UK State against our independence.

      Independence for Scotland is a Clear and Present Danger to the UK State.

    272. Dorothy Devine says:

      Ian , it may not be the most glamourous venue but it is fantastically central and to have it to ourselves is a big plus.
      Drink prices were not excessive which is unusual in the centre of Glasgow so that is another big plus!

    273. Macart says:

      Just clocked this on the Rev’s twitter.

      Danish PM doesn’t mess about. That’ll leave a mark.

    274. geeo says:

      @iain mhor.

      “I understand the call for Indyref asap, but the polls don’t show it”

      As i said, falling for the enemy narrative.

    275. John from Fife says:

      O/T Just like to say keep on trucking RP.
      Do you agree with me that the Scots Govt. should pass the legislation regarding Indy Ref 2 so that they can hold the referendum when necessary.

    276. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dorothy –

      Aye, the location is unbeatable for Glasgow gigs.

      I got talking to a woman in the main bar downstairs, she was reading The National. Anne. Very active Yesser, but she didn’t know about our gathering. Eventually she did appear, after Ronnie had been speaking to her.

      She told me there used to be a bar very close to Dows which was a hub for indy-folk years ago. I forget the name of it, but got the impression it was on the same block or very close-by. If that’s true, and that place has gone, Dows could profitably harvest that old clientele as well as us. The splendid young barman was also a Yesser. We’ve got a potentially great wee hub there.

      As you say, it’s not the most glamorous space of all time, but it’s up to us to add that X-factor!


    277. ben madigan says:

      @Dr Jim who asked “Why do these people hate us so much”
      I don’t think its active hatred for ireland and Scotland that motivates Westminster.

      What drives Westminster is arrogance and ignorance, belligerence and aggression, combined with supreme confidence they are always right.

      And what’s right for England and the English upper classes will be forced down our throats, whether it’s right for us or not.(hence clearances, famine, forced emigration etc)

      Add in, at least in ireland’s case and in Scotland’s past,(and India’s and kenya’s pasts too) belligerent,aggressive use of the british Army to try and impose their way or the highway.

    278. Phronesis says:

      Scotland is not utterly divided on Brexit, she voted unequivocally to remain in the EU. As a nation state, a country that complied with a democratic process, that expression of collective national will must be honoured.

      Goodbye UKOK- you are rapidly descending into the realms of madness. No-one can make any sense of your ravings. No capable government would deliberately cause widespread economic and social harm and no sensible electorate would vote for such a calamitous chain of events.

      ‘Why did the Prime Minster present a ‘deal’ that was so awful that even her own MPs, in such huge numbers, rejected it? One answer was that no better deal could be negotiated. The bargaining position of the UK, in its attempts to leave the EU, is so awful that Mrs May and all her hundreds of officials and all the many resigning and rebounding Brexit and Exit ministers were simply unable to come back with anything better…

      The UK is utterly divided on Brexit. By a narrow majority the bulk of the votes to Leave were supplied by people who live in the South of England. At general elections most of those who voted to Leave normally voted Conservative or UKIP…

      The majority of British MEPs belong to European party groups that are to the right of mainstream European Conservatives. UK Conservative and UKIP MEPs are by far the largest group of far-right MEPS in Europe…
      No one who is numerate should blame the north, or the poor, or the working class for what is about to become us’

    279. galamcennalath says:

      Brexit reduced to the fundamental basics…..

      EURef was compromised by lies, impossible promises, and corruption, and should be struck off as invalid.

      EURef wasn’t legally binding so can’t be struck off.

      EURef result was the will of the people and must be delivered.

      EURef result cannot be delivered because it was based on lies, impossible promises, and corruption.

      Lewis Carroll could have used this for another novel … Alice in the Magical Kingdom…. a tale of mass delusion with unachievable goals full of ridiculous characters.

    280. Liz g says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 8.07
      I thought it was a wee gem of a find for a venue.
      Not just the location but the staff too, they were loving watching the Auction!
      The attitude of the staff makes a world of difference.
      The place itself is (when ye think about it) quiet flexible as well…
      Those tables could be moved around and separated…although that would make the dance floor smaller!
      The buffet area could be by the door or,form more of an L shape in front of DJ Jock.
      As for visibility….. it has its own entrance, so there’s potential there (right at an exit from the station) and that stairway could look a million dollars with a wee bit of imagination.
      All in all it could be a right wee Wings hub….
      Also could it be hired when there’s Yes events in Glasgow?
      Wingers could leave their stuff, potentially book catering and retire after the event to partake in a wee evening refreshment!
      Also as far as I can tell, Cearc and Cameron felt it was central to their overnight accommodation.

    281. X_Sticks says:

      Dow’s was good all round and I reckon we’ll get a good welcome from the staff next time. Sort out the early access and the draught lager and all would be good.

    282. ronnie anderson says:

      I take on board everything said in respect of Dow’s bar , problems not insurmountable for Wingers ( just muck in brigade ) Wingers come into their own taking charge of situations .

      Bar Feedback Young Drew the barman enjoyed working the bar last night ( lovely crowd of people he learnt a lot last night listening to & conversing with Wingers ).

      I had people phoning me saying how much the enjoyed last night & they want notice of next planned event ( even the comedic abuse of the Dragon & others who entered into the fray raised ah titter or two during the Auction for Nana’s plaque to which Nana’s extremely delighted with the £200 raised & further complimented by donations from X Stick’s & Jim Thomson .

      Raffle monies dispersement £ 217

      WGD £50
      Livestream . £50
      AyeMail £50
      iScot £67 ( Happy Birthday Ken )

      Thanks to all for attending & contributing edibles .

    283. Liz g says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      Also,when we are organising a night!
      We should Mibbi think about a buffet list!
      A list of everything we would need to pull it together!
      Not that last nights food wasn’t fine…But if we had a generic list on off topic,then everyone picked an item they would bring,we would pull together a more organised table..

    284. ronnie anderson says:

      liz g Here Mrs wummin ma days of furniture removal or relocation ur well an truly over , phone that lot oan ch4 60min makeover & see if their available lol

    285. Liz g says:

      Ronnie Anderson @ 11.01
      Och don’t you worry Ronnie…
      Those of us who aren’t actually Grannies ( in need of cake) or aren’t Gillians mum either !!!
      Can Handel it…. 🙂

    286. skydiver says:

      Brexit changes by the minute

    287. Nana says:

      As Ronnie says, I am delighted the plaque raised such a fab sum for Lindsey Bruce at ayemail, money raised has been donated to his crowdfunder.
      Thank you to all the bidders especially Quine & CamB.

      A big thank you to the auctioneer, our very own esteemed Mr Anderson.

      oh and someone had better have taken a wee video for those of us who couldn’t be there!? From all accounts it would be worth a watch 🙂

    288. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 20:07,

      I thought it was basically fine, Ian, the draught lager situation excepted (which was also a problem downstairs, as I understand it), but that was presumably a one-off glitch.

      Space was OK on the night, but could get somewhat tight with any more folk. And require more seats (+table?). I would therefore cheerfully do away with the mini-stage, if that were possible, but if not, use it for the food table to free up some room. The food table provided was also somewhat cramped for the generous spread assembled!

      The bar was fairly small but getting served was never difficult.

      Agree (as relative local) that location adjacent to the station was very convenient.

      That’s about all I can think of, except to repeat what I already wrote on OT, grateful appreciation to everyone involved (you know who you are!) with getting it all together…

    289. Liz g says:

      Nanna, the auction was fantastic,and so funny.
      The faces on the bar staff were a picture,they were thoroughly enjoying themselves!!!
      Felt a bit for X Sticks who really, really, wanted you’re art,but he was such a good sport in the end.
      All in all a great night… I hope you make the next one XX

      And that was a stunning picture, a classy piece,that would look good in any setting… Thank you for sending it…And thank you for the highlight of the evening it provided!

    290. Capella says:

      OMG – May giving a £1.6b bribe to English regions to back her deal. What a shameless hustler she is. So little. So late.

      Struggling towns to get £1.6bn post-Brexit boost –

    291. Capella says:

      BTW, forgot to say, that’s a stunningly well drawn cartoon. Those are two Hogarthian grotesques but, nevertheless, the execution is elegant. Better than they deserve.

    292. Cactus says:

      Night night… morning morning Dorothy, ahm back HOME xx.

      Just getting sorted…

      One went West End jamming and aye have NOW returned.

      Aye dedicate this song to you… Rev Stu:

      We’re on our way…

      Cheers bro.

    293. Liz g says:

      Night Cactus….take care of you X

    294. Cactus says:

      Howde Liz, what ah night we had… we did good xx 🙂

      Take care of U2 me Lovely.

      Ah’ll probs be up furrabit if ye wanna talk mischief…

    295. Cactus says:


      Ah should probably explain a previous reference just for those whom dinnae ken or huvnae picked up on it…

      “Contact” and “Jodie knows” like:

      Vega… it’s SO beautiful.

    296. chicmac says:


      Tenniel-esqe perhaps, Hogarth-esque, definitely not.

      Much more refined IMO.

    297. Capella says:

      @ chicmac – you’re right, of course. I was thinking of the original models. As Tony Hancock said of Sid James and Co in the pub, “A fine bunch of Hogarthian grotesques”.

    298. Liz g says:

      Hey Cactus….
      We need to get smart…
      We need to know stuff… I forgot tae tell ye the ither night.
      Pog mo thon.
      Thoir ifrinn ort
      Is the stuff we need tae know…
      Naebidy will pick on ye….. If ye speak this way..( I think)
      Let’s try it?

    299. Liz g says:

      Theresa May can pog mo thon!
      Her cabinet can, thoir ifrinn ort!
      Too daireadh true.
      Rach this fur a government…yay 🙂

    300. Liz g says:

      Kiss my arse!
      Go to hell!
      Isn’t the Gaelic so much more classy?

    301. Petra says:

      BBC actually covering the Scot’s, Laura Muir, gold medal win .. well. Splattered all over the television screen this morning with the Union Fleg behind her. Looks as though they’ve got piles of these flags at the ready now. Next time round it’ll be the Saltire. Anyway, well done Laura et al. You’ve done Scotland proud.

    302. Mountain shadow says:

      Having waded through the media this morning, you would have no idea that we’re only three weeks away from a catastrophic no deal Brexit.

    303. Petra says:

      What the BBC / STV don’t tell you from Professor John Robertson.

    304. Dorothy Devine says:

      Ronnie , fantastic result for the auction – wish I could have stayed to see your master of ceremonies!

      Ian , I have to agree , it’s the company that makes the venue – and what better company can there be than a bunch of committed Yessers/ Wingers!

    305. Breeks says:

      Mountain shadow says:
      4 March, 2019 at 7:57 am
      Having waded through the media this morning, you would have no idea that we’re only three weeks away from a catastrophic no deal Brexit.

      Yeah Mountain Shadow, the world is moving on…

      “Let’s create a single Euro-African economic area. It would have enormous potential, that today remains untapped: 1.5 billion consumers, 20 trillion in value, able to rival China!” said Guy Verhofstadt, opening the ALDEPAC Conference in Cape Town.

      “Stop the world, we want to get on”, ringing anyones’ bells as a progressive philosophy?

    306. Hamish100 says:

      Good win in the indoors. Of course you dont have to go for a photo opportunities with the Unionist flag. Sad to see.

    307. skydiver says:

      Brexiteers still think the EU is bluffing

    308. Socrates MacSporran says:

      The first time I was upstairs in Sammy Dow’s was for my now late cousin’s stag do, some 50 years ago. It was a good place then and in the sadly infrequent times I have been there since, it has never failed to please.

      A bar worth cultivating, although, I must admit, I have tended to by-pass it, usually en route from Queen’s Street to Central, then, if I have time for a libation, I have over the years become a Horseshoe man.

    309. Ken500 says:

      Farm ‘subsidies’ keep food prices down. It’s ‘subsidies’ or higher prices. Higher prices hit the poorer the most. Farm run as businesses pay corporation tax on any profits. Bigger farms produce more, EU policies were founded to preventing starvation in Europe after the war. Scottish food and drinks industry bring in £4Billion+ for Scotland with exports etc.

      Many estates are in debt. They mortgage the land to the banks. To ensure their opulent living. The banks own the land. A land tax could increase the price of land. The landowners could benefit. It would make land, housing more expensive for others.

      Anyone can buy an acre of land and put a hut in it in Scotland. £5,000 an acre (loan over twenty years?). People in Scotland do not have to because there is ‘a right to roam’ . People can go where they like for a smaller outlay. Plenty of open spaces. Scotland was depopulation by Westminster policies. The population has stagnated. One reason why the land has stayed in such few hands of ownership. Many landowners would want to sell land to pay off debt. No one wants to buy it. The highest value of the land is what is situated on it. Houses, development etc.

      There are reports more farmers are at risk from suicide and depression because of Brexit. Many farms are not very profitable. Average income £27,000. The average income? Elderly owners. (60+) Many farm members work outside the farm. Young folk will not go into farming. They earn more in other industries.

      The Tories are not helping the farming industry, especially in Scotland. Brexit. They have taken £Millions of CAP payments intended for Scotland and given it to wealthier farmers in the South.

      London S/E Voted Remain. So did May’s constituency. .

      What a total Tory shambles. What a Westminster mess. They cold not make a bigger mess, Thank goodness for the SNP/Gov standing up for Scotland. They need all the support they can get.

    310. Nana says:

      Tory taunts about controlling indyref are simply provocation.

      A Minister has warned that there are fears among hauliers that a No-Deal Brexit will leave them in an untenable position within Europe.

    311. Nana says:

      Brexit: shambles time

      Will not archive

      Not at all shocked to discover that when Liam Fox previously said the UK wouldn’t ‘lower’ food standards this wouldn’t in his judgement prevent a US trade deal meaning acceptance of US food standards
      Thread with links to articles

    312. Nana says:

      Senior politicians led by Ken Clarke and Nick Brown face questions about the secrets of the Whips’ Office by the inquiry into child sexual abuse.

      Blockading Venezuela: The Linchpin of the US Strategy of Aggression

    313. Ken500 says:

      Shocking knife crime. May cut the number of Police in England. Cut all funding for public services.
      Con/Dems cut Education £6Billions Year. Cut NHS £4Billion a year. Cut welfare £3Billion a year. (6 years) From 2015 -2020. They are having to put more into NHS because of the cuts.

      They are spending £Billions a year on HS2, Hinkley Point and Trident etc. A total waste of public money. The Tory slush fund.

      What a Westminster shambles. A total mess. They are starving and killing people and wasting £Billions.

    314. stu mac says:

      @Petra says:
      4 March, 2019 at 8:12 am
      What the BBC / STV don’t tell you from Professor John Robertson.

      It’s worth pointing out, I agree, that sectarianism isn’t the only form of bigotry based criminality, especially that racial-based is still in the thousands and sexual orientation hate crimes are increasing. However though 10% reduction sounds like a lot there are still far too many.

      Also, while it’s right to go to proper, official figures, one shouldn’t always accept them blindly. Figures like that can only be for reported crimes. Sexual-orientation crimes may be on the up because in the past victims would be afraid to report them (previous attitudes of police for instance). While other crimes may be being under reported for various reasons.

      For instance, a guy recently got jailed for shouting abuse and spitting at a priest during the Orange walk. However as has been reported, eye-witnesses have told of many more shouting abuse at the priest and his parishioners (some of them very elderly and frail) but not one of them has been brought to book about this. So here you have a hate crime committed by several people but just one will be included in the stats. And of course we know what goes on every week with a certain crowd of “football fans”.

      My point isn’t to diminish the seriousness of any of these crimes (there are still far too many of them) but to point out that just because you see an increase or reduction, that doesn’t mean there really has been either. The MSM of course will always try to twist the figures to suit agendas but we should remember the bare figures don’t always tell the whole story.

    315. Robert Peffers says:

      @John from Fife says:3 March, 2019 at 9:28 pm:

      ” … Do you agree with me that the Scots Govt. should pass the legislation regarding Indy Ref 2 so that they can hold the referendum when necessary.”

      There is no law to stop anyone holding a referendum, John from Fife, and the SNP already have a mandate to do so from the Scottish Electorate. The claptrap spouted by the Westminster Establishment about needing a section 30 order is a total red herring.

      Indyref1 had an agreement signed by David Cameron and Alex Salmond. The agreement was that both sides would respect the result. They also agreed upon the wording of the question.

      However referendums are normally only consultative and the result is not binding upon the organisation running the referendum unless it is agreed beforehand that the result is binding upon those running the referendum. In point of fact the EU referendum had no such agreement yet the Tory government is claiming they must obey the will of the people.

      So the situation of an indyref2 is that it is a referendum run by the Scottish Government who are consulting the Scottish electorate and it is up to them whether they treat the result as binding or not and the Westminster Government have nothing to do with it and it is not against any law. The SG already has a mandate given to them from the legally sovereign people of Scotland. Furthermore the Westminster government has already conceded in their UK Supreme Court that the people of Scotland are legally sovereign.

      There is no legal way for Westminster to prevent indyref2 and the SG have a clear mandate from the legally sovereign people of Scotland to hold one anytime they want to. It will be up to the SG if they treat the result as binding or not.

      Further to that the UK government is signatory to both the United Nations and the EU Human rights legislation and that legislation contains the part that an identifiable group of people who claim the right of self determination must be given that right.

      Note that within the past month the Chagos Islanders have just had the International Court tell the United Kingdom they must get out of the Chagos Islands at once and return the Chagos Islands back to the islanders.

      As to Scotland, the Scots were a recognized identifiable people long before the land called, “Angle Land”, was invented by the Angle Saxons after they took over south Britain after the Romans left south Britain.

    316. Dr Jim says:

      Scotland’s FM said her *preferred* route to Independence was a referendum that doesn’t mean a referendum is going to happen, if Theresa May does what we all think she’s going to do and refuses a section 30 order for a co-operative referendum then a referendum can still happen followed by the legal route which I believe the EU and the UN will be in full support (other countries have done this very thing)

      Brexit breaks the treaty of union and the Tories know it but they hope that loud noise and bluster and the use of the media will move things in their favour

      I don’t think it will, I think they’ve burned their own house down playing with matches and think if they burn ours down too they’ll look justified, plus they can’t afford to rebuild without Scotland’s assets as collateral

      Oh what a panic’s in their breasties

    317. jfngw says:

      BritNats in Scotland having a flurry over Scotland having its own currency and then moving on to Scotland would need to join the Euro misinformation.

      But if the choice was between the Euro and the Pound which would you choose. Would it be the one that is happy to tank your economy and has proven to work against the interests of Scotland, and in the future would do its best to make sure your country failed. Or something else.

      Of all choices the Pound seems like the worst choice for Scotland, keeps us tied to WM economic policies.

    318. Kangaroo says:

      Confused @ 1:44pm spot on, well said.

      To everyone on here. We must remember that we are all on the same side, #DissolveTheUnion. We just express ourselves in different ways, and our knowledge and experience is different. That is why we are sometimes at odds, it does not mean we are antagonists, just that we have different viewpoints and differing degrees of awareness.

      So chill, we are winning.

      In the short term it will become apparent that the Union is untenable, and paradoxically the unionists are going to be the ones who demand to leave.

      So here is another messenger. Viewer discretion required, not suitable for Yoons and others with delicate disposition.

      They can prevent publication of this information because they control all MSM, as I am sure you are all aware due to the excellent work of Rev. Stu.

      DJT is pursuing them and this will all become common knowledge by the end of March.

      Apologies to those who don’t like the unvarnished truth.

    319. Iain mhor says:

      @geeo @9:26pm

      So it’s stick a finger in the air and gamble a country on gut instinct then? Or do you have other metrics in mind?
      The only true poll is the ballot box, but how do you tell when it’s time to go, if not sample ‘balloting’ before you pull the trigger? I am not an evangelist for polls, they are flawed, but they are all there is other than the ballot box. It’s that statistical gap which is the gamble. I’d prefer the SPE’s and standing on an Indy ticket and would have preferred it last time and the GE as well. At least Scotland would (should) remain intact. Another nationwide referendum loss would bury Scotland, in my opinion anyway.

      We know empirically, the people of Scotland are choosing the SNP for good government within Devo, we know that YES transcends party lines, so there is a balance between non YES SNP voters and Yessers from other parties; The question is how much in balance are they and how do you find out?
      For a referendum to carry the day, there have to be more Yessers in the Unionist parties than No”s who vote SNP and that includes the don’t-knows. Elections would flush them out and flesh out the figures (Nothing like alliteration to make a point) Because that hasn’t been done, neither the SNP or the electorate know the score.
      I think that’s where we are headed – the Scottish Elections on a ticket and a possible confirmatory referendum thereafter. Because as I’ll always point out, how can you know when to gamble a country’s future?

      The marginal Tories stuck a finger in the air, relied on marginal polling and look at that shitshow. They had polling data going way back as well and it was marginal within error. Except subsampling, where Scotland was higher than error margins and consistently around 52% with a return much higher at 62%
      Consistency is key and YES has been consistently just under.If polling shows YES to get above error margins then I’m confident, but perhaps sometimes you do have to ignore data and grasp the thistle. I don’t really know. 2014 scarred me and perhaps I’m just averse to repeating that pain.

    320. Sorcha S. says:

      Another weekend of sniping BTL by the usual suspects.

      For the unwary, the Dramatis Personae are ‘Robert Peffers’

      You would be forgiven for thinking this was his site because for as long as anyone can remember, he has taken up residence, oxygen and time to inflict on us rehashed posts from his now-defunct blog. This toxic blowhard utilises the traffic WoS generates to get to an audience he could never dream of.

      Most of his rants can be summarised as ‘the Scottish people are sovereign’ but he often takes 500 words or so to shoehorn this into almost every post. Hardly anything is referenced. Claims are made as if they are fact. He has no qualifications in Constitutional Law but that does not stop him verbally assaulting anyone who dares to disagree.

      He is a member of the SNP, as are many of us, but woe betide you if you criticise them. He is the self-appointed Witch Finder General, seeking out unbelievers whose credentials he doubt and whose commitment to the cause doesn’t live up to his expectations. His attempts to control the narrative BTL are downright sinister. He is not a moderator but he acts like one. His posts are littered with gratuitous insults and overt paranoia. He is a parody of an SNP or Independence supporter and does nothing to dispel the idea that we are not all a bunch of cultish lunatics. Avoid at all costs.

      He is often bolstered and supported by ‘Dr Jim’ a seemingly benign poster who portrays a nasty side if, again, you voice any doubts about the SNP. His internet persona is, like RP, curmudgeonly, mansplaining and he loves the sound of his internet voice. Posts on anything and everything with little substance.

      ‘Petra’ the mean girl of the site. Veers between fawning, sycophancy to RP and any others she believes are worth cultivating as the main players with gushing ‘Great post!’. No originality and rehashes others ideas and posts as if they are her own. Portrays herself as a martyr to the SNP. Flies into histrionic rages if anyone disses ‘Nicola’. Could start a fight in an empty room.

      ‘Geeo’ the thug and bouncer of the site. Launches into diatribes if anyone attacks his homey RP. A lout with nothing to say. Avoid.

    321. Luigi says:

      In this climate, anything can happen, and anything will happen, folks.

      Whether its IndyRef 2 or simply withdrawing the treaty of union on account of Scotland being dragged out of the EU against the democratic will, this is going to be a very dirty, nasty fight, my friends. The tories of all colours (aka the British nationalists) are utterly desperate and know well that without Scotland’s resources, “independent” England outside the EU is down the toilet. They will do anything to prevent Scottish self-determination.

      The coming battle will make the dirty tricks of 2014 look like a Teddy bear picnic. We need to be ready and brave to take them on. When the goping gets tough….. 🙂

    322. Giving Goose says:


      Near Freudian Slip there with regards to a certain Tory politician – “Groping”?

    323. Kangaroo says:

      Sorcha S. @ 10:09am

      Deerie me. Spot the Orange Jaicket.

    324. Petra says:

      @ Sorcha at 10:09am ….. “Another weekend of sniping”….

      Ha ha ha. And on comes Sorcha to “snipe” on Monday. Sorcha the Sniper has a nice ring to it.

    325. Dr Jim says:

      @Kangaroo 10:21am

      I bet he/she’s got a bad tempered dug as well

    326. X_Sticks says:

      Who the fuck is Scorcha S?

      Certainly not one of us.

    327. Cubby says:

      Sorcha Sniper

      The person who posts comments slagging people of then disappears until some time in the future when this person reappears and does the same all over again.

      Cut and run disrupter. My advice scroll on by.

      You have to laugh at the hypocrites who post complaints about people criticising other posters then proceed to do exactly that themselves.

    328. Legerwood says:

      Nana @ 8.49 am

      Your link:
      “”Minister has warned that there are fears among hauliers that a No-Deal Brexit will leave them in an untenable position within Europe.

      This echoes what was said several week ago on CH4 news. A professor from Oxford University who specialises in trade etc was being interviewed on this topic.

      He said that if the UK came out of the EU without a deal it would be seen as a 3rd party country and as such would be limited to 2000 permits. Truck movements per day to and from Europe are numbered in the tens of thousands per day/week depending on the port.

    329. ALAN GERRISH says:

      Robert Peffers @ 9.04

      A pity more people on “our” side don’t read Wings, Robert.

      In yesterday’s Sunday National there was an article on “What should Scotland do next if the UK rejects a call for Indyref2?”

      Some good comments starting with WGD who was spot-on in saying we need to achieve a Section 30 refusal first and base the campaign on that; that, I feel is exactly what our FM plans.

      Disappointing then to read Lesley Riddoch saying we need a Section 30….by increasing leverage ….even if that is just raising political sympathy for Scotland among “liberals” across the UK because we have so obviously hard done by.

      So we need a sympathy vote before we can get what is within our our rights to carry out? Nah, don’t think so!

      Kevin McKenna who originally supported a quick move to an Indyref2, now favours going to the country in 2021 on an Independence referendum ticket. Although I personally disagree strongly with that approach, he then goes on to say the SNP should mount a diplomatic charm offensive across Europe.

      Merde,keep up Kevin! Have you not noticed that’s exactly what’s been happening since the Brexit ref in 2016 – 400 contacts since then by Nicola Sturgeon and other ministers, plus business and university leaders. And not to mention visits to China USA Canada Ireland Iceland etc etc?

      Michael Fry: The polls have been stable since 2014 with a small majority for the Union…an early referendum would be courting disaster Evidence, Michael?

      Rob McAlpine: ScotGov has a mandate to ask for a referendum and Westminster has a mandate to say no.

      Err, actually no, Robin. ScotGov has a mandate to call a referendum, not to ask permission to call one. And no Westminster has “presumed” to have a right to “refuse”, quite erroneously, of course.

      Apart from that there were 6 positive contributions in addition to WGD, so overall that’s a healthy balance I suppose. My disappointment stems from the billing that the National asked “leading YES figures how we should react”, yet there were 4 who don’t seem to be quite up to speed with the situation we find ourselves in at the present time.

      So I would humbly suggest again that these “outliers” would benefit from a regular update of Wings, with a particular focus on the basic constitutional facts as outlined tirelessly by the estimable Mr Peffers!

    330. ronnie anderson says:

      All monies raised from the Raffle in Dow’s is now in the bank accounts of

      Ayemail £ 50
      Livestream £ 50
      WGD £ 50
      iScot £ 67

      The auction monies for Nana’s plaque £ 250 has been forwarded to Ayemail by Norman .

      Thanks again Folks .

    331. Capella says:

      Hey – “Sorcha” – what about me!? I usually make it onto those “lists”. I must be slacking these days. Better luck next time.

    332. Nana says:


      I remember that clip and I think I posted it on here, or perhaps a related article?

      Some more links while I’m here

      How Does He Survive? The Curious Case of ‘Failing Grayling’

      Seems Grayling is scared of Joanna Cherry as he’s sending someone else to make a statement

      UK MPs to pull debate on Channel Island assets

    333. Legerwood says:

      Nana @ 1.11pm

      You may well have posted a link to it. I saw the interview live so that is why I remembered it. I have almost given up listening to the news in the last couple of weeks when they are covering Brexit because it is mostly just a lot of noise signifying nothing much.

      I expect Ms Cherry has had her teeth specially buffed and flossed ready to sink them into whatever hapless wee soul they send along to face her.

    334. Confused says:

      Sorcha S post was one of the funniest Ive seen on WOS for a while. At least she(?) put in the effort.

      The name is odd – only connection I can think of is Sorcha Faal (SUCH A FAIL) who was a notoriously wild and innacurate promoter of bizarre conspiracy tales – most people think she was an israeli disinfo op.

      Here’s a wee tune for all you bad boys and girls – I can see you all now – wearing leather biker jackets and flicking lit cigarettes at those who displease you

      – what are you rebelling against jonny
      – what have you got …

    335. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana.

      I see that another investigation is being carried out in relation to the Westminster paedophiles. All of these investigations and yet not one of them, even the dead, has been officially outed as being a paedophile and those still alive charged with any crime. Now they are questioning the Chief Whips. The men (and women?) who hold the dirty wee secrets and cover up for the dirty wee runts. Gavin Williamson was Chief Whip until the day before he became Defence Secretary. Politicians were gobsmacked when he was given the post, by T May, and wondered what he’d done to deserve it. Maybe they should have been thinking along the lines of not so much as to what he’d done, but to what he knew?

    336. Cubby says:

      Alan Gerrish@12.30pm

      Great post. You correctly identified the fact that there are Independence supporters who still do not possess an independent state of mind. The cringe is still hanging about in Scotland. These people need to ask themselves the question – does England own Scotland? If the answer is no, as It should surely be, then why do we need to ask permission or gain any sympathy etc. There is a mandate for Indyref2 from the people of Scotland – that is the only permission required.

      For goodness sake people shake off the cringe. In fact we would be better off without a section 30 as Westminster will just try and pockle any ref.

      Did the UK ask for permission from the EU to hold the 2016 EU ref.

    337. Petra says:

      @ Confused at 1:54pm. ….”The name is odd”….

      Just a different one Confused, IMO, from the other one that she used when she previously posted on here.

    338. Nana says:

      Petra @2.02pm

      The cons will do nothing Petra as the following video shows

      It would be better however if Labour were to mention a few of their own deviants.

    339. skydiver says:

      Akan gerrish

      Brilliant post

    340. Nana says:


      It is Day 1 of the IICSA – Westminster Investigation

      you can watch part of the proceedings here.

    341. Ghillie says:

      The resurgence of a very familiar voice under yet another name, the OTT denigration of Wingers and sheer spitefulness of tone is actually a useful barometer of the panic filling the minds and hearts of those unionists terrified of losing the last vestiges of an empire.

      Interesting to see who they chose to target with malice.

      Falling on stony ground.

      Wings flies above this.

    342. Liz g says:

      Ghillie @ 3.17
      Aye Ghillie, true enough, but still feeling a wee bit left oot 🙂
      Oh dear what a pity, never mind….
      Must try harder to annoy Claire!

    343. Petra says:

      @ Nana at 2:27pm …… “Tory paedophile cover-up.”

      I’ve just watched the video Nana and think of the “publicity” that Alex Salmond has received, by frothing at the mouth journalists, in relation to this, which looks like a journalistic blanket ban on exposing Tory politicians (maybe Labour too). You get to the stage that there’s no way to properly express your frustration and anger at what’s going on in this country with the Media and politicians: The lies, the coverups and double standards. All we can do is hang onto the hope that the situation will be very different in an Independent Scotland.

      As an aside, this story reminds me of a nurse that I reported for beating up mentally ill patients. Following my report she disappeared from the hospital immediately never to be seen or heard from again. I found that strange as I never had a witness (or rather they wouldn’t speak out). Thirteen years later I was working in a residential setting with children with multiple and complex needs and low and behold who should be working on night shift? And then she was exposed as being the cruel b*tch that she was as she’d been making the children’s lives an utter misery too for thirteen years. Beggars belief that not only was she not sacked (as I thought), but was moved to work with vulnerable children. Another case of move them up or sideways.

    344. geeo says:

      Sorcha S

      The latest reincarnation of jezza/mac/john boy/ take your pick.

      You may as well just start being abusive now, as we all know you surely will.

      I will then report your abuse, as will others, and you will be gone again.

      Since you like labels, you do your predictable thing, then we will do ours.

      Save a week, we can have you outta here in 48 hours.


      Prove everyone wrong, post something on topic, perhaps even sensible or thought provoking ?

      But we all know thats not how this shit flies, don’t we, Sorcha S ?

      We see you.

      Only a matter of time .

    345. geeo says:

      @iain mhor 10.03am

      So if (unionist) polls never shift, and i explained previously why they won’t, your answer is to sit forever with your thumb up your ass, paralysed with fear ?

      Pray tell, what were polls saying when indyref1 was called, and what happened to those numbers in 2 short years ?

      If we are frit, due to blatently rigged unionist commissioned polling, we are doomed by that ‘fritness’ (is that even a word) forever.

    346. Iain mhor says:

      Well, we’ll have to differ on polling, surveys and the ballot box and just invent another way of gauging Indy support. I never advocate doing heehaw, there are several tactics and I note the SNP following some.
      I clarified a couple of times that binary Indy polls are not the only polls in the world. I have a view on where I believe Indy support is, the size of shift needed how I’d achieve it and much else – I’ve shared it a few times. I get on with my way, and good luck with yours. We both need it.

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