If the Scots had won
There was (unintentionally, we presume) a very revealing turn of phrase used by Tory MEP Jacqueline Foster on today’s edition of Good Morning Scotland:
(Good Morning Scotland, BBC Radio Scotland, 28 March 2018)
.
“Scotland held a referendum on independence a couple of years earlier, and if the Scots had won that referendum to leave the United Kingdom, they’d have left the European Union.”
We suppose it’s nice that even the Tories finally agree that Scotland lost by voting No. But it’s interesting to hear that apparently there has never been any way for Scots to stay in the EU – if they voted Yes in 2014 they were out, if they voted No in 2014 they were out, and even though they voted Remain in 2016 they’re going out.
Any fair-minded democrat would surely then accept that Scotland’s voters deserve one chance to actually make that choice in a meaningful way, no?
It’s the way in the UK; Scots have no choice in anything.
Let us put that scenario to a test by having a Referendum. Call their bluff.
A Tory punting that spurious point yet again. Surely it was always a mute point. Scotland at the point of Independence would be a fully compliant EU nation. Sure, as an Independent Nation we had to go through the process of applying in our own right, but as I remember it, it was always protrayed by the EU as a formality. The Tories need to be challenged on this assertion.
You’d think.
Unionist logic however….
A case of Tory “heads I win, tails you lose”, Scotland!
We can and must do far better than this.
Our future, our decision.
link to crowdjustice.com
breaking all the records……
Bring it on. Just off to Ponsati demo outside Sheriffs Court.
Actually, by her logic, Scotland has therefore voted in both Referenda to REMAIN. Why should the Tories be allowed to take us out?
It may well have been an unintentional term of phrase, but it is undoubtedly how these people see it.
No Voters voted for all of us to be ruled over by people who see Scotland as a possession.
“if the Scots had won” This was civic nationalism during the referendum, is she suggesting that had it been Scots only voting we would have won?
We can’t pick and mix. Picking and mixing is very very bad. OK? Got that Scotland? Respecting the votes of Scottish voters would be picking and mixing. We can’t do that.
What you can have is dolly mixture, humbugs or gobstoppers. But no picking and mixing.
Their Facebook data must have indicated that Scottish voters have a strange aversion to pick and mix.
F.W.Woolworth had pick and mix dispensers. But they went bankrupt a long time ago because nobody bought their sweeties. That’s the Tory message.
Search me.
Interesting.
So, NOT an equal partner. NOT a valued member of the UK, despite being one of only 2 signatories, albeit under force, that begat the UK!
Only leaves one avenue does it not mes amis?
We won, you lost, Scotland. Welcome to the united kingdom.
Clear tory insight though, Scotland is ours to possess, Scots are to be defeated. The more things change etc.
Capella said: “…they went bankrupt a long time ago because nobody bought their sweeties”. That would be because there was always someone else with their sticky hands in your sweets. Yep! Just like Westminster I guess.
If we lost we lose and if we won we lost too. My aching head.
“If the Scots had won”
Referring to the Scottish independence referendum
So she is actually saying the Scots lost
Who won then ?
Clearly she sees this as being a British win and as we all know British is English
“Scotland’s voters deserve one chance to actually make that choice in a meaningful way”
There’s two ways to go with this, though.
The first and most decisive would be an independence referendum. If we vote NO then we stay in the UK and will be dragged out of the EU. If we vote YES then we get to make our own minds up about the EU. As the ‘jewel in the crown’ of the UK, I have no doubt the EU will want us to remain as close as possible to Europe.
The second would be another EURef. Personally, I’m against it because I see no reason for a rerun. Nothing has changed and there is nothing new about Brexit that an informed voter should have known in 2016. The outcome was clear. England voted to leave, Scotland voted to stay. That Scottish stance wouldn’t change one little bit with a second EU vote. Another reason why England’s secession must be honoured is because we would expect a YES vote to be honoured!
A second EURef is no solution to Scotland’s problem. We need ScotRef.
There’s more to this EURef stuff.
Firstly a lot of Leavers expect it to effectively offer – accept Leave deal, or leave with no deal! They don’t want nor expect a Remain option. Personally, I would boycott such a vote by spoiling my ballot writing Remain across it.
Secondly BritNats and their media are playing silly buggers with Scotland and talk of a second referendum here. Most folks (I believe) assume it means a second independence referendum. Yet the BritNats try to confuse and mix the two. I am certain when someone implies ScotRef when saying 2nd referendum, the media push this as meaning EURef.
how does that WW1 protest song go again?
Whiter than the whitewash on the wall,
Whiter than the whitewash on the wall.
Oh wash us in the water that you washed your dirty daughter in
and we’ll be whiter than the whitewash on the wall
on the wall, on the wall,
Whiter than the whitewash on the wall, on the wall
Oh wash us in the water that you washed your dirty daughter in
and we’ll be whiter than the whitewash on the wall.
Well, that sets a Wonderful Legal Precedent, doesn’t it. What’s good for the Britnat Goose, is good for wee Sottish Spiug.
The Case for Independent UN Referendum Monitors just gets Stronger and Stronger.
Perhaps they would like to do some training in this area now. Purely for practice you understand. Such an invite’s none of WM’s business or concern, the FM could just extend it as a courtesy to be helpful, like.
Betty Boop says:
28 March, 2018 at 11:50 am
“It’s the way in the UK; Scots have no choice in anything.”
You do still have the choice to be rude about the English. Don’t squander it !
The Tories will lose
Scotland will win
Wee Ruth and Willie were claiming to be Scots but to keep their own noses in the trough they supported the No campaign.
Tory Ms Foster obviously recognizes that they are not Scots but
would be Westminster Brits.
Lets hope they relocate there soon, and good riddance.
Something I really despise is the assumption that we (Scotland) voted in NO in 2014 UKref and therefore must accept the 2016 EUref result.
It ignores two simple fasts…
1) In 2014 we were told remaining in EU was the best way to maintain our EU membership. This turned out to be a lie.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
2) Scotland cant now be in the EU and the UK. So one of the results from either 2014 (55% UK) or 2016 (62% EU) will be disrespected….
Equal member of the union ?
Something I really despise is the assumption that we (Scotland) voted in NO in 2014 UKref and therefore must accept the 2016 EUref result.
It ignores two simple fasts…
1) In 2014 we were told remaining in EU was the best way to maintain our EU membership. This turned out to be a lie.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
2) Scotland cant now be in the EU and the UK. So one of the results from either 2014 (55% UK) or 2016 (62% EU) will be disrespected….
Equal member of the union ?
Cheating only counts if your not English and get caught ball tampering.
Or there’s a serious feud going on inside BBC News.
CA getting reported as a tech story. Investigative reporting exiled to C4, another publicly funded channel.
The Skripal poisoning grinding on and no mention of the possibility that it was a terror attack. The use of alleged nerve agents and the 3 ring circus with the fluffing of the lines as to whether clothes should be dry cleaned or not. Russia is generally tidier than that. Without the heroic cop being temporarily inconvenienced by the tentative toxin we’d probably , in the words of Sergeant Major Williams, be saying “Oh Dear, How Sad, Never Mind”
Aye Scotland lost alright.
Watch the video linked below from Dr Philippa Whitfords Twitter.
“Speaking to @PeteWishart the Minister of State for Immigration “I wouldn’t grant any powers to the Scottish Government that I wouldn’t grant to Lincolnshire county council”. Well that is Scotland telt! Still think we are #BetterTogether ???”
link to mobile.twitter.com
Well, duh, obviously a non member of the EU, in this case Scotland, will not be an EU member on independence day, irrespective of Brexit. That was always the case.
The difference Brexit (assuming it happens, which is a pretty fair bet now) makes is that we are out in any case. Brexit changes the entire balance of risk regarding Europe, compared to previously. The risky option is now clearly a No vote.
The question then is what do we do to recover the benefits of Europe, otherwise know as the Four Freedoms, which are embedded in the EEA Agreement, in the shortest possible time after independence day.
To me that’s clearly EFTA EEA, because the process of joining by that route is simple and potentially quick.If we do that, then our rights, the rights of EU citizens here, and the Scottish economy are protected
It may be that we would wish thereafter to seek to join the EU, at some future time, but the absolute priority is to get back into the Single Market ASAP.
@Rev Stu, There is, of course, another salient point that this supremely arrogant woman was unwittingly making.
Her claim being that if Scotland left the United Kingdom then Scotland would have also left the EU is utter tripe.
The flaw in her particular argument is that Scotland, by leaving the United Kingdom, would have also taken the only other kingdom that comprises the United Kingdom out too. This because what remains of a two partner United Kingdom when one leaves is no longer a United Kingdom. It instantly becomes a Disunited Kingdom.
This is, of course, the typical unionist mindset that, without any legal proof whatsoever, assumes the United Kingdom and the country and the Kingdom of England are synonymous terms for the same thing.
You can also add to that little list the terms, Britain, Great Britain and, “The Country”.
Neither the Kingdom of England nor the country of England are the United Kingdom and, in 1706/6 there were no other kingdoms extant in the British Isles. Ergo when the Kingdom of Scotland leaves the United Kingdom the United Kingdom immediately ends.
What remains is in no way an rUnited Kingdom it is the Kingdom of England as it was, (the Status Quo Ante), when it agreed to join a bipartite United Kingdom. It thus leaves the United Kingdom almost exactly as it came into it – a three part Kingdom of England but minus the Republic of Ireland
As for the EU. They can either accept both former parts of the United Kingdom as separate member states or reject both as no longer members. They could, though, decide to ask each of the two former partners if they would wish to remain as the legacy member state and that gives everyone what they want.
The EU membership numbers remain the same, Scotland continues as a member and England leaves the EU and sails off into the Sunset, (being careful to avoid Scotland, The Irish Republic, Jersey, Guernsey and Man, as she heads off towards the USA.
@Robert Peffers
Made this point in other places myself, to no avail. Some think the term ‘United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland’ could be used, albeit unilaterally, if the Scots were to protest.
Of course we might suggest the prefixing of Former. FUKEWNI does have a certain resonance.
@Derick fae Yell says: 28 March, 2018 at 1:58 pm:
“Well, duh, obviously a non member of the EU, in this case Scotland, will not be an EU member on independence day, irrespective of Brexit. That was always the case.”
Then Derek fae Yell, you would oblige us here on Wings by informing us the exact EU rule, law or legal mechanism by which the EU can expel founder member citizens of the EU from the EU?
I just cannot find any such EU way of expelling EU citizens against their expressed will. You do know, don’t you that there is only one legal way for a member state to leave the EU? That state has to formally, in writing, request that they can leave?
That was why the EU refused to just accept Theresa’s verbal request and made her submit a formal request. Now the exact same applies to individual EU citizens. They have to submit a formal request to leave.
Thing is that the EU cannot interfere in any member state’s internal government. This is because all member states have a veto and the EU cannot over rule that. Hence Sweden has never adopted the Euro and the EU has never forced Sweden to do so.
It is also why the EU will not interfere with Spain over Catalonia or Brussels over the Flemings and Wallonians. or even the over Brittany, Corsica and the French Basque Country or the German Zoar separatists.
You didn’t think that the UK was the only EU state with independence seekers did you? It affects most EU member states and that means the EU will not get involved in internal member state matters. That doesn’t mean the EU will not be pressuring Spain or indeed the UK in the background.
@Abulhaq says: 28 March, 2018 at 2:27 pm:
“Made this point in other places myself, to no avail. Some think the term ‘United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland’ could be used, albeit unilaterally, if the Scots were to protest.
Of course we might suggest the prefixing of Former. FUKEWNI does have a certain resonance.”
Yeah! I’ve heard all the arguments before and long ago, Abulhaq.
Tried every counter argument against them too but you cannot get through to a thoroughly brain washed Britnat or a committed English Nationalist.
Had one guy who I worked alongside once rage at me endlessly for days on end and he trotted out all the same old arguments over and over again. You know the kind of thing, “But you Scots have a Parliament and we English haven’t got one of our own.
At this point I asked him if he would get me an application form to join the English Nationalist party.
He kind of spluttered for a bit then burst out, “But! But! You’re Scottish”, Why would you want to join us?
Oh! I said, Don’t we want the same things for our country? We want out of The Westminster Parliament. He then almost deafened me shouting, “but Westminster’s our Parliament … …”. and then went very, very quiet.
Anyway! As light relief and a giggle there’s this:-
link to youtube.com
Have a good laugh and then think what that lot really mean.
If we choose independence, there is obviously a degree of uncertainty as to our position regarding the EU. But as RP mentions, we are currently citizens, so it is eminently plausible that the EU would be willing to offer us an ongoing bridge to full membership in our own right, should our newly-sovereign government wish to explore that possibility.
And why ever would the SG be unwilling? It would be duty-bound to explore all available options.
Furthermore, if the EU is willing to give the Leaver UK a transition period to exit, why on earth would they be making any difficulty whatever about making one to keep us in?
Life is problematic enough without erecting false obstacles in the way.
Orri 1.25pm. “Oh dear,how sad too bad, never mind.lol
‘If you vote YES you’ll be out of the EU!’ No doubt this persuaded some to vote NO to preserve our EU membership. And now we cannot even TRY for membership.
I would love to say ‘I told you so’ to the ones who voted NO.
It’s almost as though all the things they said in the campaign were deliberate lies, isn’t it???
Robert peffers 3.13pm. Thought there might have been at the end about bookburning.
Erse fur elbah. Awe thae rid, blue in musturt tories.
Oanlae naw migrants, tae Scoattish Independence, ahlood.
Basturts.
The document that extinguishes our individual EU citizenship is the Lisbon Treaty, Article 20, paragraph 1. “Every person holding the nationality of a member state shall be a citizen of the Union”
Such individual citizenship is contingent on being a citizen of an EU member state. It ceases next March, on Brexit, when the member state, in this case the UK, ceases to be a member of the EU.
Google “Contingent Citizenship and Reversible Rights in the European Union”
Read the Draft withdrawal agreement. It makes a clear distinction between Union citizens, and “UK nationals” because UK nationals will no longer be Union citizens after Brexit.
Caveat: the court case currently being brought by Jo Maugham seeks to establish EU citizenship, acquired by being a national of a member state, as independent of membership.
link to theguardian.com
Robert Peffers says:
28 March, 2018 at 2:50 pm
“Then Derek fae Yell, you would oblige us here on Wings by informing us the exact EU rule, law or legal mechanism by which the EU can expel founder member citizens of the EU from the EU?”
There are no “citizens” of Scotland, unless you can show us your Scottish passport.
Scotland has never been a member of the EU, unless you can produce a list of EU member states which includes Scotland as a member state.
As far as the EU and the world are concerned, rightly, Scotland is nothing more than a region of the UK, with the UK being a member of the EU, the UN etc.
If the UK gets out, so does its North British region.
Anyway, according to you, the EU is dead:
Robert Peffers says:
25 March, 2018 at 1:22 pm (The winds of change)
“If Germany has thrown in its lot with Spain they are, between them, signing the death warrant of the European Union and killing it off.”
“RIP the European Union, for except for now lying down, you are now declaring yourself dead.”
If the Scots didn’t win the 2014 independence referendum then who does Ms Foster suggest did win it? The English?
Derick fae Yell @ 20:20,
The same old bureaucratese. It’s as if truly historic events must never be allowed to intrude on the tranquillity of dusty old documents. As if that never, ever happened. (!)
Scotland voting independence changes everything.
Fundamentally. (And if not, what the hell would be the point of it?)
That’s the thing that some people with their own axes to grind just don’t want anyone to understand.
O/T
Wingers Night Out….A reminder
Everything is in place for our “wee do” in the in THE OTTERS HEAD in Woodside, Glenrothees on 7th April (only 10 sleeps to go)
Full details have now been re-posted over on Off Topic.
Amused.
The Lisbon Treaty is not a dusty old document. It’s the current and fundamental basis of the European Union!
But hey, magical thinking will make it all better
We tried the wish trees in 2014. We lost.
I don’t want to lose again, so the magical thinking needs to be packed away.
It’s like heads they win,tails you lose with the Tories.
I live in SW Edinburgh constituency (Joanna Cherry’s). And it was about a year ago (before the local elections and before Teresa May had the bright idea of calling an election), there was a knock at the door.
The bloke standing there asked me if I would mind answering some questions about politics, it was a survey of some sort.
I said I didn’t want to to.
He persisted and it turned out he was a representative of the Conservative party. He eventually asked why I was reluctant to answer his questions.
That was it. I really went for it. I told him his party had ****ed up this country for no good reason etc. etc. Telling him that Brexit was the most insane idea ever. I really wished I could remember exactly what I said. I think I finished with something along the lines of I’m glad Scotland has a possible ‘out’.
To be fair he took it well and didn’t argue back.
My younger daughter (who due to age missed out voting on both the recent referenda), was at the top of the stairs and said who was that Dad?
A tory wanting to ask questions.
She just stood there and gave the finger repeatedly to the front door.
I just thought I would share that with you.
According to the
Centre on Constitutional Change
Scots voted for independence in 2014.
It was rUK residents that swung it for No
See p5 – Demographics in here
link to centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk