Hung out to dry
Posted on
August 10, 2019 by
Chris Cairns
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Tee hee hee, Leonard has been pegged to the Labour line
Thought that was George Peppard at 1st with cigar…
Love it when a plan comes ra gither 🙂
Looks like time for the next Branch Manager??? Back to their usual selection method – Buggin’s Choice – except they have so little choice and certainly none of substance.
Spot on Chris.
Listening to MSM this week, non of the ranting “No Indy Ref” Scot Lab MP or MSP were able to explain how they can prevent it.
Even the above Dick head of Scot Labour explained what they could actually do to stop it.
One thing is certain, the NO Campaign has stepped up another gear.
Another excellent cartoon.
The labour ‘scottishy’ branch office, hung out to dry.
The problem for the ‘scottishy’ branch office of Labour, is simply this, they have clung on hard to a policy approach to Scottish independence, they developed sometime in the 1970’s. The whole world has changed, the UK has changed, and importantly, the people of Scotland have changed. Yet still, despite ALL the evidence, the clowns, including Mr. Leonard, cling on to their opposition to Scottish independence.
However, it is not per se, their opposition to independence which is the real issue here, it is, rather, their somewhat slavish devotion to parroting the EXACT same arguments as the Tories. Why oppose a referendum being held? surely that is EXACTLY what ANY socialist might argue for in any other country. A democratic right. Freedom for the people to speak and have their say. Yet still we see ‘scottishy’ labour folk, run with EXACTLY the same mantra as the Tories.
‘scottishy’ Labour do not like being called red tories, but the fact, is, that in Scotland, and on the matter of Scottish democracy, it the most apt way to describe them. Red Tories/blue Tories, no real difference in Scotland. They both oppose Scottish democracy, whilst on bended knee grovelling for crumbs from their English masters.
Great likeness.
Wasn’t sure if the Leonard’s tie or his tongue.
The First Ministers Independence Petition continues
To grow in numbers.
Just went through 271,000 signatures.
Superb! The expressions say it all…
https://www.yes.scot/
Drip drying.
The supposed guardians of the union (Labour and Tory Scottish branch office) now both seek devolution and further autonomy from their Westminster masters.
Such wonderful schadenfreude.
Richard Leonard is an English Nationalist pure and simple.
Labour in Scotland run by an English Nationalist on behalf of English Nationalists.
Richard’s jacket has been on a shoogly peg for a while. Surely he must welcome this opportunity to save any credibility he’s got left and get out of Dodge.
Another brilliant effort Chris,you’ve got Leonard pegged that’s for sure.
Topping cartoon as usual Chris and some likewise comedy posts from the early birds . Aye its good drying day and good to see a high and dry dick.
Poor auld Richard. The party line can leave you high and dry.
I suppose he’s the branch line manager now.
That gave me a laugh this morning Chris,excellent,you
never fail.
Richard always was a sacrificial lamb. He was just never told by the party.
As Kenny Mac Askill has recently pointed out at just 52% support for independence at a time when the British state’s prestige is flat lining what does it take to shift the sleepy Scottish electorate beyond that margin of error.
The possibility that as things get even worse Scots slide back into the comfy unionist shell is not to be ruled out; ageing Scotland is manifestly not a country of political revolutionaries
The more dithering Sturgeon does, the fewer signs of strategy and demonstrations of leadership we get from the party executive the greater the risk the SNP is the one hung out to dry.
So good, Chris. Well done!
Is John McDonnell about to hang up a white flag? The Red Tories really should pack it in, in Scotland. They are both an embarrassment and an object of ridicule. Unionist to the bone. They have long since lost all respect. Only the brain dead vote for them.
Abulhaq, one man’s ‘dithering’ is one woman’s ‘patiently waiting till Brexit becomes legally effective’.
That’s one drip that’ll never dry.
Who is kneeling down in front of McDonnell behind the white sheet?
Abulhaq 8.43am. ” the sleepy Scottish electorate “. Your being magnanimous there , right?
Abulhacker
Patience dear! Patience!
Let the Tories and labour continue their self destruction while we watch. It suits us.
Of course unless you are a britnat.
Labour branch hung out to dry , Davidson being undermined by her disloyal troops. What’s not to like.
Richard Leonard has served mainly to lower the tone of political discourse in Scotland, and to damage the reputation of the Scottish Parliament by his mere presence. Sadly, there are many others just like him among the Unionist seats. Self-serving careerists, with little knowledge and little brain, wholly dependent on the daily script handed them by Party managers.
Hung out to dry? Better they be thrown out on their ear.
There have been several SLab leaders since the SNP win of 2007 but Leonard has managed the difficult feat of being lower profile than the others yet at the same time more humiliated.
I wonder if Richard Leonard swaggers into Holyrood at the head of a new force?
A cream cracker of a toon.
The self styled “Scottish” labour in Scotland never learn anything and will continue to be unable to learn, adapt and survive. They are political Britnat dinosaurs – about to become extinct in Scotland.
Abulhaq at 8.53
We all know your game. What a bore.
Good one again Chris.
London Labour showing what comes first . . London Labour !
sort of OT is there a definitive number for the many not the few?
Surely we will get a counterpoint cartoon next week now that Kenny Farquharson has pointed out “Yet my impression is he knows exactly what he is doing and exactly what power he wields over his slavishly loyal and, in many cases, suggestible following. “
Leonard is an advocate of the Union. He should know how it’s supposed to work. London says jump and Scotland is expected to ask how high?
As always BritNats want it both ways. Hypocrisy is their motto. One rule for them another for little people. He can’t oppose autonomy and then become annoyed when his autonomy is challenged.
Why is big John hanging out a fictional character from a really bad tv advert?
What do you mean Renard Leopold is real nah never i am sure i have seen the actor that plays him doing commercials for incontinence pants.
LOL that is a cracker Chris 😉
Both London leaders are quite willing to throw the ‘Scottish’ leaders Dick and Ruth under the bus says the shortbread panel of experts this morning if it means getting the key to number 10.
Cartoon making this very clear. 🙂
Whose next please let it be Jackie B.
O/T
Having read most of the interview of Stu by Kenny Farquharson of the Times – he just doesn’t get it. His comment –
”
Yet my impression is he knows exactly what he is doing and exactly what power he wields over his slavishly loyal and, in many cases, suggestible following.” Same comment is for his newspaper readers and the rest of the MSM.
@Abulhaq
It is still not beyond possible with Westminster’s ‘Now is not the time’ that Scotland may need to use less conventional methods to gain independence. These will need international recognition to put pressure on UKGov to also recognise them. Look at how the Catalan Declaraton of Independence fell flat. Because they were not seen as having tried everything.
Sturgeon HAS to be seen not just to have tried everything but have tried them seriously and genuinely. It is an process which HAS to be gone through. I’m as impatient as the next person and don’t see why within that we cannae hae a campaign declared regardless to focus attention and get the polling numbers up.
So my criticism is off the lack of a declared campaign, not the careful, deliberate ruling out of options. The omens are good, I reckon the Brexited against Irish will recognise us in a heartbeat, the Norwegians might as well and there’s an outside chance our ancient friends in La Belle France will remember the Auld Alliance. Those three will drag in others and London will be surrounded.
But we have to be seen to have walked the walk.
O/T
The comments below the line on the Times interview with Stu are impressive!!!
What kind of world do they live in?
So, still some democratic principles left in Labour.
I don’t think the Liberal Democrats will follow suite, they are neither Liberal nor Democratic.
Leonard and tank commander Davidson have spent years telling us they were autonomous in Scotland. I think they forgot to tell their peers in England.
Westminster treats them and the rest of their party in Scotland for what they are—– house jocks.
Pliable and reliable.
Scottish Labour an empty shell never ever offering anything constructive to political debate.
It is indeed a party for dafties.
Time is now running out for the unionists.
To be frank, I am not really sure that Leonard has been hanged to dry as much as the blairites (tories in disguise) within the Scottish branch of labour have. Leonard does what Corbyn tells him to do. It is the blairites like UJ jacket and SIU dinners Murray who were keeping the pretence that the branch was somewhat autonomous. McDonnell has just reminded the labour electorate who actually makes the decisions for Labour and who determines what goes in the manifesto.
Having said that, I feel somehow that McDonnell is just telling us what we want to hear and being economic with the truth. labour has an spectacular record of deception towards Scotland, so it is hard to believe that such “impeccable” record is going to change now. I fear there is an ulterior motive here, like the expectation that there will not be a real opportunity for Labour to actually back indyref because somehow Holyrood would have been suspended by then.
I feel this is all part of a strategic game, a game where Labour, tories and libdems are just different pawns of the same team fighting against the SNP. I think they are purposely dismantling the Scottish labour branch because its services are no longer required. At this moment in time it is in fact a liability for the ENglish establishment because it is hoovering precious No votes that would be put to much better use against the SNP if combined with those of the other colonialist parties, the brexit party or the Libdems.
What do you do when you don’t longer have enough no vote to share between 3/4 parties and you have people in labour who would never vote tory or would never vote for brexit?
You concentrate it in two new alternatives:
The brexit party who are just rebranded tories will hoover most of the tory and labour brexit vote (and hopefully some the 30% pro-Brexit SNP votes)
The newly “reborn” Libdems, energised by Umuna and other labour members after the other new English establishment construct, change Uk did not manage to take off will hoover the remain vote
Anything to decrease the SNP MPs below half the 59. The motto of the English establishment is always divide and conquer. As it is now in defensive mode, it will do just the opposite: unite to avoid being conquered.
I feel this “turmoil” in SLab is engineered and a strategy to transfer votes from Slabour to the other English establishment parties in preparation for a GE where there is a now less than a 50% of No vote in Scotland and is the last ever chance the English establishment will have to stop indyref.
It is going to get really ugly. I wonder if the truckloads of dark money have arrived already to tory (or should I use now its rebranded name, brexit party?) HQs.
House jocks right enough.
Pity the so called media in Scotland can’t see the logic in Mcdonnel’s statement.
It’s either respect the democratic rights of Scotland’s voters, or send in the tanks and arrest the leaders.
If there’s an election soon red/blue/yellow Tories face a wipe out.
They know it. You can smell the fear.
Classic `gaslighting` from the British Labour and Unionist Party,
`Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which a person seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or in members of a targeted group, making them question their own memory, perception, and sanity.
Using persistent denial, misdirection, contradiction, and lying, gaslighting involves attempts to destabilize the victim and delegitimize the victim’s belief.`
the only thing you can be sure of with the British Labour and Unionist Party is that you can`t be sure of anything.
@Maria F at 10.23am
Good points and I tend to agree with you on what you say. We well know that when the Establishment parties (Labour, Conservatives and LibDems ++ MSM incl the BBC) fear Scottish Independence support rising they all gang up against Scotland. Look at Indy 2014 i.e. Better Together and snap GE 2017 on how they all ganged up to oust the likes of Alex Salmond and Angus Robertson.
I do think McDonnell is in the play of a coordinated attempt to again gang up and keep the Independence and Yes movement in abaeance.
We need to be wary as you say.
http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/blogspot/rznWQ/~3/om50zhQkX0w/the-august-serious-season-before.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email
IS BREXIT UNSOLVABLE
” the attempt to push through no-deal Brexit represents an undemocratic political fraud without any precedent I can think of. It has no mandate from either the Referendum or any election and every claim to the contrary by Brexiters is grotesquely dishonest.”
” The complexities, contradictions, fantasies and sheer lies of Brexit have simply overwhelmed the capacity of our political system to cope with them. “will
Whilst we can enjoy the discomfiture of Mr. Rich Lemoncurd the SLab branch leader we had also better remind ourselves of something. That McDonnell & Corbyn have played this game before, of making positive noises about agreeing to an indyref, only to retreat from it.
Conformation that Scottish Labour are completely irrelevant.
A cracker Chris, well done.
@ kapelmeister at 10.54am
Agreed as per Maria F and my comments previously.
TheItalianJob says:
10 August, 2019 at 10:42 am
What would be the odds of this new SLabour “turmoil” with members already resigning “in a huff” at the prospect of UK Labour “breaking ranks” with SLab by backing an indyref is just the “convenient” excuse to justify the exit of SLab blairites and join Umuna (another blairite) in the LibDems?
Watch this space.
Doing a deal with Britnats is like doing a deal with the Mafia. It won’t end well.
A 30 second VIDEO. Labour Leaders in the Scotland Branch four years ago.
Two for the price of one.
Jim Murphy The Saviour of the Fantastic Union with Kezia Dugdale.
https://tinyurl.com/y6dzpjjl
Cheer up—–there’ll be another along in a minute. [smile emoji]
So the question is
Am I
1)slavishly loyal
2)suggestible
3)both
4)Richard Leonard
Come on, Stu!
Help me out here!
If I was labour I would look to see who is keeping quiet waiting for an opportunity to grab Corbyns seat and Leonard’s.
The labour overtures are all a load of nonsense as is Tom Gordon in today’s herald. They know they can’t stop the tide we just need to ensure it keeps flowing in and then all done and dusted by 2021 regardless what they say they think they might allow.
Despite the ongoing tsunami of lies from the Brits, support for independence continues to increase.
All we need to do regarding Labour’s shambles is to note it as a matter of interest. Nobody in their right mind would believe anything they say. It is good that the public see their duplicity.
However the unionists collectively contrive to use this situation, it will be to their detriment. Behaving like plonkers isn’t a good look.
I’m only just getting over the terrible SNP civil war only to find the Scottish[sic] Labour Party have started another one.
I was about to rush out to stock up on essentials when I remembered.
It’s Labour…….they will simply abstain.
Deary me Rev i go out for an hour and come back and all the yoons are going batshit mental.
Have you been poking them with a stick again lol
PS Kenny F thanks for the free PR numbskull.
@Tackety Beets says: 10 August, 2019 at 7:34 am:
” … One thing is certain, the NO Campaign has stepped up another gear.”
Aye! Tackety Beets, and every time they do that the Independence movement moves up another few points in opinion polls. As a couple of things predicted long ago first was, “Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves”, and the other was that their negativity campaigning would reach a point where it would become counter productive because Scots people would realise the things being run down were not only far better than the rest of the United Kingdom but were actually very good.
Now every time they come up with another SNP BAAAD! story they rubbish their own case and help the independence cause. We have just witnessed such a case over the claimed contaminated school. This weekend the reports are that environmental tests have all come up proving there is no contamination.
Furthermore after the lies about the new Forth Crossing and the other new built projects most people now realise that all new projects are going to have shake-down things that need to be corrected.
Anyone who builds anything, whether it be structural or engineering, knows that there will be shake down adjustments to be made when the system is put into use. I was speaking to a guy a few days ago. He works for a company that designs, constructs and installs built in furniture, he was out to a house to sort out little faults the customer had reported in a new built in bedroom his company had designed, built and installed.
The SMSM and most political folks don’t seem to get that as a fact and cannot resist blowing things out of all proportion. The voters don’t take too long to understand what is going on and the unionist cause shoots itself in the foot once more.
Chris Cairns has hit the nail on the head once more.
Great cartoon Chris. Another Labour stooshie at the steamie?
…………………………….
Who will the Independence supporting Brexiteers, such as Sillars, vote for in Scotland? The Tory or Brexit Party?
‘Scotland’s Brexit Party MEP asks if it’s time to shut Holyrood.’
http://www.thenational.scot/news/17827511.scotlands-brexit-party-mep-asks-time-shut-holyrood/
‘Wee Ginger Dugcast – 9 August 2019.’
”In the latest edition of the dugcast, The National’s editor Callum Baird and I discuss what has been a momentous week for the Scottish independence movement. The anecdotal reports that many people who had voted No in 2014 are now switching to Yes were confirmed by the poll from the Conservative pollster Michael Ashcroft which put support for independence in the lead. We talk about the poll, the BBC’s shameful lack of coverage of it, the implications for the movement, and the meltdown in the Labour party in Scotland.”
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/08/09/wee-ginger-dugcast-9-august-2019/
So WOS are challenging the SNP.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/wings-over-scotland-plans-new-pro-independence-party-to-take-on-snp-1-4981043
The Tories are worried by trying to divide.
‘Hung out to dry’…in THIS weather?!
Oofft. Harsh 🙂
I enjoyed reading the Kenny Farquharson interview, not for what it said about anything important – it didn’t, but because of what it revealed about Kenny Farquharson and his small minded followers.
Desperate to demolish the influence of WoS he searches for “explanations” of Stu’s supposed vitriolic character. He wants the WoS readership to be cast as divisive and vitriolic too.
Delightful to read the comments BTL too. As a hatchet job it doesn’t quite hit the mark.
Must try harder.
https://tinyurl.com/y4p7urgc
@ Hamish100 says at 12:57 pm .. ”So WOS are challenging the SNP. The Tories are worried by trying to divide.”
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/wings-over-scotland-plans-new-pro-independence-party-to-take-on-snp-1-4981043
This just beggars belief. We’ve now moved over the 50% mark and Stewart Campbell is throwing this into the mix! Additionally running the only political party that will get us our Independence right down to the ground. What on earth is going on here? Has MI5 finally got to you Stu?
@ Hamish 100
Indeed, let’s hope no one volunteers to split the nationalist vote!
The SNP are not perfect, but by a long way are the best political party / movement in Scotland and the uk! Certainly the SNP should be gently reminded to focus from time to time, but what is the point of acting like the two parties infighting, as depicted in the cartoon.
Solidarity of cause has served the SNP and Scotland well over the past 15 years, let’s not throw that out the window and gift our future to the unionists!
I trust the FM, most commentators have her down as the most astute politician in Scotland and the uk, let’s get behind her and the cause!
@Robert Louis says: 10 August, 2019 at 7:39 am:
” … it is not per se, their opposition to independence which is the real issue here, it is, rather, their somewhat slavish devotion to parroting the EXACT same arguments as the Tories.”
That one was nailed a very long time ago, Robert Louis. It is because the Westminster system has always been a sham, in that there really is no party system at Westminster. With the exception of the Welsh, Irish and Scottish independence parties, all the rest are members of the Unionist party. The unionist party, like every other party, has a right, left and centre faction within the party.
So there it is, left right and centre, unionists are all bits of the Westminster Establishment. They all fight amongst themselves but when their, “precious”, union comes under attack, what else can they do but all follow the same form of attacks upon, “the outsiders”.
So the truth is they are not actually all Tories, they are all the Westminster Establishment’s right, left and centre factions.
Need I point out that when the United Kingdom, (wearing it’s false, “British”, hat),comes under attack they normally immediately suspend the sitting party in government and Her Majesty summons her choice of leader to her presence and commands that person to form, “Her Majesty’s, cross party, wartime cabinet.
Now, of course, they have a big problem for they are under attack from two different enemies of the, (cough!), state. The first is the usual, Johnny Foreigners, of the European Union and the second is the semi-Johnny Foreigners of the UK’s own Celtic Fringe.
If you have paid attention you will know there is a bit of a scrap going on at Westminster as we speak. It is about what to do about the threats of leaving the EU without a deal.
Not the problem is there has already been a deal negotiated with the EU who, perfectly reasonably, contend that they already agreed a with Theresa May who obviously thought this was acceptable until Parliament refused, (3 times), to agree to the agreed deal. This resulted in May leaving office.
Her successor, Boris, now thinks that the already agreed deal can be renegotiated but the EU says it cannot so Boris thinks he can thus just leave the EU without an agreement but claims this is all the EU’s fault. Meanwhile the Celtic Fringe is circling the UK Wagon Train looking for any chinks in their defences.
However, there are threats from the UK remain faction to call a vote of no confidence in the current Boris led UK Government which could mean there might be Royal call for a cross-party coalition UK cabinet – which does nothing the stave off the UK Celtic Fringe still circling the UK government wagon train — unless, of course, the wartime cross-party cabinet included the leaders of the Celtic Fringe.
Then there is the still unspoken threat that if the Westminster Government prorogues the Westminster Parliament the Celtic Fringe devolved Governments will cease the chance and declare themselves as independent while Westminster is prorogued and declare the Treaty of Union over and the United Kingdom ended.
The point is that it isn’t what the MSM is telling the people that matters but what the MSM is not telling the people that may be the way things go.
@ Petra
Could not agree more, we must have unity of purpose, united we stand, divided we fall!
Let’s hope that we’ve dissolved the Union way before then. And just wondering where the money will be coming from to actually set up a new party?
”Mr Campbell said he had already put forward the notion of a new party to several potential candidates but he will wait until nearer the 2021 Scottish election before deciding whether or not to create a new political group.”
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/wings-over-scotland-plans-new-pro-independence-party-to-take-on-snp-1-4981043
Kenny Farquarson, a true Unionist – treacherous to the core.
Stu v SNP. From where I’m sitting, not a good look.
Unity in diversity.
@Abulhaq says: 10 August, 2019 at 8:43 am:
” … As Kenny Mac Askill has recently pointed out at just 52% support for independence at a time when the British state’s prestige is flat lining what does it take to shift the sleepy Scottish electorate beyond that margin of error.”
It is never very long before the false flag wavers get to wave their false flags. So allow me to point out that 52% is an alleged 52% and the percentage quoted is for an opinion poll.
You may not have noticed, Abulhaq, that opinion polls have been known to be wrong when the actual official vote is held. Not only that but the Stu James Kelly, (no not that one), has pointed out that as Ashcroft has not published regular polls there really is no way of knowing if there has actually been an increase or a decrease since his last opinion polls.
So I will venture a guess that unless the SNP’s private polls are showing a corresponding increase then the SNP, as usual, will treat this one as they treat most others.
However, I have little doubt that the general upwards trend of opinion is indeed upwards for independence.
@Calum Mackay
He may stand candidates on the list. The SNP are hampered by their huge Constituency vote in the amount of Regional seats they can realistically achieve. 2011 was a fluke.
No one should ever feel compelled to vote for a party because they are the only option – we did that for years with Labour who became invincible in their own eyes and abused their power. To say it would divide the vote assumes there are a only so many votes to go around when we know there were 1.6 million in favour of Indy and not all of have not voted for an Indy party since then.
They voted at the Referendum and the GE thereafter and then disillusioned with Party politics some went back to abstaining.
Also this may give an option to voters who are Indy supporting but are uncomfortable with the impression that the ‘woke’ element has hijacked the SNP – Fiona Robertson, Mhairi Black, Lloyd Melville etc. and feel they can no longer vote SNP. Maybe target them?
Anyway, he is explaining it on Twitter now.
‘many have not voted for an Indy party since then’
I don’t believe Stu is throwing anything into the mix anytime soon. The Scotsman only HINTS at what Stu MIGHT have said, which was waiting until 2021 “but he will wait until nearer the 2021 Scottish election before deciding whether or not to create a new political group.”
Only Stu can say whether this is true, or if it’s typical of the Scotsman, and isn’t.
Richard Leopard claims to be a social democrat but he opposes Scots accessing the most widely supported human right there is, i.e. the right to internal sovereignty. He’s not a principled individual, he’s a British nationalist and so, subsequently, a bit of a fascist.
https://academic.oup.com/ejil/article/22/2/373/540688
Brilliant news Stu.
At last someone no longer prepared to accept the “vote SNP / vote SNP” SNP Scottish Parliament election strategy that is absolutely damaging to the independence cause, for the sake of getting the SNP one or two extra List MSPs at the price of dozens of anti-independence Unionist MSPs.
As an independence supporter who no longer votes SNP for Scottish Parliament elections, and has seen a very poor performance from the Scottish Greens, it is great news.
I just hope it’s not needed because hopefully independence will come first.
But, good to make preparations just in case.
The D’Hondt quota. Voters do not understand the system. They think the second vote must be for another Party. Evans took it in. So the SNP could not win. The 3rd rate losers win.
So remedial skooling is definitely in order for Scotland’s more [c]onservatively minded legal ‘thinkers’, IMHO.
Sovereignty, Human Rights, and Self-Determination:
The Meaning of International Law
https://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1770&context=ilj
Anyone who supports Independence and does not vote SNP is totally ignorant.
It would be such a delight to have the SNP as the largest party and another independence party as second largest, the the unionists reduced to third place and only two questions at FMQ’s. The LibDem’s disappear into oblivion.
At this minute the unionists are frothing, the MSM will be in disarray. I wonder if this party will receive the same treatment as UKIP when it had no MP’s or MSP’s, never off the screen, somehow I suspect not.
I would hope, following this interview in the Scotsman, that the Rev will maybe devote a blog to expand (or reject?) the idea that he is planning to split the Indy vote at the next election, with a new Party.
Surely that would be a death knell for our cause? If not I certainly would like to hear exactly how this new thinking would helps us.
Just when it looks like the Union side might pull together, are we intending our very own breakup? Please enlighten us.
@Muscleguy says: 10 August, 2019 at 10:04 am:
” … Look at how the Catalan Declaraton of Independence fell flat. Because they were not seen as having tried everything.”
Sorry to tell you this, Muscleguy, but you are way off beam. There simply is no comparison between the Scottish/United Kingdom and the Catalonian/Spanish situations so it is futile to attempt any other comparison than both are attempts for independence.
The, “UK”, is the initials for, “The United Kingdom”. It is not a country but is exactly what its title describes it as and it was the result of an international treaty called “The Treaty of Union”. In which treaty the two kingdoms must have been equally sovereign or there could not have been an international treaty.
The result of which treaty is the United Kingdom and thus Westminster is not the actual legal parliament of England it is the joint parliament of both signatory kingdoms. In any international treaty any signatory can legally end the treaty any time it wants to and needs no one’s permission to do so.
By the way the UK has no written constitution.
Catalonia is a semi-autonomous region of the country of Spain and as such is an integral part of the country of Spain and Spain has a written constitution that Catalonia is signed up to.
The Kingdom of Scotland is a signatory to the international, “Treaty of Union”, and the United Kingdom has no written constitution so is subject to the Articles of Union, in the Treaty of Union, as is the Kingdom of England.
So either the Kingdom of Scotland or the Kingdom of England can dissolve the union without needing anyone’s permission to do so and as Westminster legally represents both kingdoms then Westminster cannot legally represent either against the other.
The legal status is one monarch with two kingdoms and thus neither can the monarchy legally take sides.
The United Kingdom is unique in the World so there simply is no comparisons to be made. Two kingdoms agreed by treaty to unite as a united kingdom so either kingdom can just say the union is over and Westminster or the monarch, both representing both kingdoms, cannot legally stop them – excepting as the Queen of England is legally sovereign in the kingdom of England she can interfere for some matters but can be over ruled for matters that involve Scotland because the people, not the Queen, is sovereign in Scotland.
So, plese do not try and compare either Catalonia or Quebec to Scotland they are not legally the same.
Here is KH making the case for independence, though I suspect he doesn’t realise it.
‘i speak as a remain voter here – but the “equals” in the partnership are the *voters*; my scottish vote counts the same as your english one – please don’t fall for nationalists’ framing that suggests 5m Scottish votes are somehow democratically equal to 50m English’
What he is saying is even if 100% of Scots vote for something then England will decide. He doesn’t recognise there is a union and all countries opinions need respected in certain areas, another country having the power to remove my citizenship of the EU is one of those areas. The ability to fiddle a few pence with income tax here and there is of no relevance in comparison.
Something in the wind?
Interesting to witness the chaos and incompetence in London and the south east of England yesterday.
Why are the SNP in power?
Because unionism is split!
Go figure, if nationalism was split?
There is no sliver bullet for independence, SNP is and will be, the only show in town!
Who remembers the name of any of the socialist parties in the first reconvened Scottish Parliament?
Who will remember Chucks Umuna or any of the others who split from the unionist parties?
Unity is everything
@ sassenach says at 2:25 pm …. ”I would hope, following this interview in the Scotsman.”…
It’s worse than that sassenach. The interview was carried out by Kenny Farquarson of the Times, as far as I can make out.
”Speaking in an interview with The Times, Mr Campbell said….
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/wings-over-scotland-plans-new-pro-independence-party-to-take-on-snp-1-4981043
I’ve mentioned that British nationalism is a form of cultural patriarchy, so with the aim of assisting Scotland’s remedial legal eductaion, here’s some legal reason shaped by an insight into critical feminist legal theory and stuff, i.e. International Relations Theory.
https://oxfordre.com/internationalstudies/abstract/10.1093/acrefore/9780190846626.001.0001/acrefore-9780190846626-e-300?rskey=OAq7mS&result=3
“Mr. Rich Lemoncurd”
Is it not Record Lyinturd?
@Calum McKay
I don’t vote SNP for nationalism, but for democracy. I want to see Scotland governed by the people it votes for 100% of the time. If you are an independence supporter but don’t agree with the SNP policy you have nowhere else to go except unionist parties, unless you are a Green.
I would quite happily see independence supporting Labour, Tory and LibDem parties, but that is never going to happen when they are financed from London. The likelihood that any of them would try and a set up Scottish version is slim to zero, most of them in these parties are enthralled by the thought of being, as they see it, playing with the big boys and retirement to the HoL as a possibility.
@Maria F says: 10 August, 2019 at 10:23 am:
” … To be frank, I am not really sure that Leonard has been hanged to dry as much as the blairites (tories in disguise) within the Scottish branch of labour have. Leonard does what Corbyn tells him to do. It is the blairites like UJ jacket and SIU dinners Murray who were keeping the pretence that the branch was somewhat autonomous. McDonnell has just reminded the labour electorate who actually makes the decisions for Labour and who determines what goes in the manifesto.”
You are way of beam, Maria F, There is no party registered in the United Kingdom as, “Scottish Labour”.
Now there is an anomaly in the system whereby a candidate can call him/her self anything but must be registered as a party and only registered parties can run in an election and only registered parties can publish a manifesto but to do so is not required. What is more the voter does not vote for a party – they vote for a candidate.
Having said all that the salient point is that the candidates from Scotland can call themselves, “Scottish Labour”, but, “Scottish Labour”, (not being a registered party), cannot publish a legal manifesto.
The fallout of all that is, “Scottish Labour”, does not exist and as well as not being able to publish a manifesto has no legal right to publish its finances – which is why the Labour Party is UK wide and they describe Scottish Labour as, “A Labour Party Accounting Unit”.
I’ll point out an incident that highlights how things work. You may remember when, “The man from London”, came to Glasgow and deselected several sitting Labour Councillors against the wishes of the Glasgow constituency association, and installed candidates chosen by London. Where was, “Scottish Labour”, in all this? Sitting very quiet, doing as it was told to do. London holds the purse strings so London calls the shots.
Petra – apologies, it is very easy to carelessly mistake the Times for the Scotsman – I am very bad!!
@ Calum Mackay
The point is the SNP are not able to harness all the Indy votes because of their policies! They cannot be all things to all people.
They are actively alienating some voters with their perceived timidity on Indy on one hand and others are horrified by their stance on GRA reform.People are holding their nose to vote for them and that is getting more and more difficult for some.
There are diehard SNP supporters will vote for them no matter what because for them party trumps country but floating voters, Indy supporting or not, won’t. Giving an option to people who don’t vote, or who feel they cannot vote SNP and who want Independence is what it is about.
Recently the SNP have been moving into Green territory with their GRA stuff and you could equally argue that is cannibalising the Indy vote too.
Just repeating the mantra that voting the SNP equals Independence is not enough.
We are not independent yet and if this galvanises the the SNP to reevaluate its stance even just to stop WoS candidates standing then that is job done.
Petra 1.11pm
I certainly don’t believe in another indy party at this particular time but Stewart has done more to further indy than anyone else by continually highlighting the lies of the unionist press. After we lost the `14 referendum we were in a state of utter despair and it was this site that picked us up and gave us hope and I for one will be eternally grateful.
And as regards the recent poll showing a majority for indy that is down to Brexit and Boris Johnson more than any SNP masterplan.
I also see the Guardian has a story saying that Nicola Sturgeon is encouraging people in England to move to Scotland, if this is true then she has lost her mind as it would take a mere 5% to make an English majority in Scotland, and we know that their loyalty would always be to England.
Ken500
I voted SNP at the Euros, Council and GE. Ignorance has nothing to do with it.
The SNP’s constituency MSP broke his promises to me. He was also high on the List.
So, I won’t vote for him or any politician who treats constituents like that. It’s an unfortunate side-effect that that means I can’t vote SNP for Holyrood.
The same candidates, maybe the same parties too, shouldn’t be standing for the constituency election AND the Party List anyway; it’s undemocratic.
A “Wings” party is something that the Rev is apparently considering. If we get to another Holyrood election without Indyref2 having been called then something needs to be done.
Unless support for the SNP is above 50% then another party is needed to get the necessary votes to get a majority. The Greens have been awful in occupying that role and so another party is the logical answer.
This party will only stand in the List so will not affect the FPTP abomination element. It will not be voting for crazy things such as taxing people to go to work which is the price of having to rely on the Greens.
If we get to another Holyrood election without Indyref2 being called then there are going to be lot of pissed off Independence voters who may not give their 2nd vote to the SNP. It would be better if they were voting for one party rather than lots of different small parties.
Some more stuff to assist Scotland’s remedial legal education. Remember, the full-English Brexit undermines the interests of the “common good”.
Note: This is a draft. Please do not quote or circulate more widely.
The Role of the Law in Critical Theory
— The case of Property and the Commons —
As a Commentary of the first chapter of Négri and Hardt’s Commonwealth
http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/praxis1313/mikhail-xifaras-the-role-of-the-law-in-critical-theory-the-role-of-property-in-the-commons/
Assuming Holyrood still exists, if no indyref is held despite how many mandates????
and the SNP stand again on the same policy of indyref and waiting for permission from Westminster to hold one, it’s no just a List alternative pro-indy supporters will need.
We will need YES constituency candidates too.
Those who prefer the SNP’s devolution-first, and prioritising of saving England, gender-based and sex politics, as their priority, can vote for Nicola’s SNP.
And here’s why critical legal reason is crucial to the delivery of justice.
Sovereignty and Inequality
https://academic.oup.com/ejil/article-pdf/9/4/599/6723797/9-4-599.pdf
Let us hope that there is no need for 2021 Election and that Scotland is free
@ McDuff says at 3:15 pm …. ”I also see the Guardian has a story saying that Nicola Sturgeon is encouraging people in England to move to Scotland, if this is true then she has lost her mind as it would take a mere 5% to make an English majority in Scotland, and we know that their loyalty would always be to England.”
As far as I can make out many English people who have been moving to Scotland are doing so because they detest what’s happening in England and of course more than anything Westminster politics, McDuff. Many of them, including those on the O’Brien phone in as examples, will be voting for Independence.
………………………..
@ Colin Alexander says at 3:41 pm …. ”Those who prefer the SNP’s …. gender-based and sex politics, as their priority, can vote for Nicola’s SNP.”
Colin you’ll know full well, if you follow the site, that this has been put on the back-burner until further investigations / consultations are carried out.
If this is the way forward for the ”new party”, if they adopt your condemnatory approach towards the SNP, you can wave bye-bye to Scottish Independence for good. Is that what you want?
@SilverDarling says:10 August, 2019 at 3:02 pm:
” … Just repeating the mantra that voting the SNP equals Independence is not enough.
We are not independent yet … </i?
Well, now you have shown your true colours, we can safely ignore your subsequent posts. However, you are correct that we are not independent yet, and if such as you get your way we never will be independent.
There is absolutely no good reason for splitting the SNP vote in Scotland. Unless, of course, you are a unionist.
I’ll take some convincing to be assured an alternative to the SNP would not be damaging to our cause, but some in woke-wing the party better wake up to the fact that Westminster is a racist patriarchy, and remember that ‘the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house’.
@ Colin Alexander.
Nicola was asked what she would do if a Section 30 order was refused during an interview where she outlined the purpose of the new referendum Bill. Her answer was quite emphatic. ‘I will deal with that problem when it arises’
Sounded away like the lady expected it to be refused and was prepared for it. So forget 2021, that’s Westminster prefered option not ours.
…. but some in the woke-wing of the party better wake up to the fact….
Sovereign God, Sovereign State, Sovereign Self
http://scholarship.law.nd.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2110&context=ndlr
Petra
If the SNP always waits for permission from Westminster before Scotland can even decide if Scotland wants to be independent, we will never be independent. We’ll all die waiting.
Westminster will never grant permission for indyref if it facilitates Scottish independence.
WM only agreed last time because they were confident Project Fear and the SNP’s plan of sharing the Pound meant a majority would reject indy and the UK Govt had it prepared to interpret a No vote to be the green light for further subjugation of Scotland.
However, it remains unclear if Brexit will happen and if indyref is declared in response, so I’m not condemning the SNP. Yet.
I am forewarning the SNP, if it turns out Brexit happens and no Indyref called, and no alternative happens to establish democratically that the majority want indy, then I’ll condemn the SNP and stop supporting them, as would many thousands of other independence supporters.
Too many ex labour voters parading their views and hang ups as if they are experts. Perhaps a bit more self examination would be in order as they were fooled for a long long time by a bunch of self serving Britnats.
Independence independence independence – that is what ultimately needs to happen – all this party/policy squabbling can be carried forward to your hearts content afterwards. No independence no freedom – get your priorities right.
Have I upset you – sorry but that is my opinion.
@Golfnut 4.09pm
Scotland does not need permission to decide whether to become independent.
An S30 Order from WM is an unnecessary nicety, a 2014 convention, not a legal necessity.
Scottish Sovereignty and international law on self-determination trumps The Scotland Act 1998/2016.
So, I hope you are right about Nicola and the SNP.
Colin Alexander@4.19pm
If the SNP do not achieve Scottish independence or indeed do not carry out an Indyref2 then that is the time to consider new approaches. As I have said before it will not be long before it will be clarified if we are led by a modern day Bruce or a bunch of Charlies. If the SNP are a bunch of feart Charlies I will be criticising them as much as anyone.
“Then I’ll condemn the SNP and stop supporting them”. Your having a laugh eh. I couldn’t count the number of times you have criticised/ condemned the SNP on Wings.
Richard Leopard can neither be considered a rational liberal, nor an internationalist. It is not possible to value those virtues while wishing to impose the full-English Brexit on Scotland.
William Worster: Sovereignty – Two Competing Theories of State Recognition – William Worster
https://exploringgeopolitics.org/publication_worster_willliam_sovereignty_constitutive_declatory_statehood_recognition_legal_view_international_law_court_justice_montevideo_genocide_convention/
SECTION 30
The last time I remember Sturgeon talking about this she said she would PREFER a sect 30 as per 2014. She did NOT say it was essential. She did NOT say it was necessary.
I have challenged anyone on Wings previously to come forward and quote where she said otherwise. I have also challenged on Wings for anyone to clarify what if any law is being broken to have a referendum without a section 30.
Not a word from anyone not even the Britnats on Wings.
As I like to get my retaliation in first, one simple response to those that suggest Scotland’s vote to remain in the EU was not unanimous, is that every Scottish electoral ward voted to remain in the EU. At least I think that was the case.
Stu posted an article some time ago outlining a plan for maximising the YES vote in Holyrood. The SNP should romp home in the Constituency section of the d’Hondt vote as they do already.
However, this means that they gain very little from the Regional Vote. From hundreds of thousands of votes they get c 4 seats?
A YES party that only stood in the Regional lists would gain many more seats from the YES supporting vote. That would give an outright majority in Holyrood. If the candidates standing were high profile YES people – and we can all think of a few – say about 20 – then their chances of winning seats would be high.
That’s my understanding of the maths – but I’m no psephologist and my maths isn’t that great either.
Free online course from Glasgow University – Discover the Clans – you have until Monday to register. From the National:
http://archive.fo/HHmVD
Robert Peffers@4.04pm
It seems to me you are suggesting silver should be changed to Alistair.
Thanks for that Capella. This is the link for joining for free.
https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/the-highland-clans
How’s your Saturday evenin’ a goin’ John Lowe…
Ah see you got the first triple-comment on this thread, with ?????
Was it an emoticon ye were goin’ for, aye copy/paste can dae that
Care to share what they were meant to be John?
Ahm curious like… thx 🙂
Cactus
John is possibly on a Mac and new to this game.
John Lowe
You need Mac friendly code for smiley faces, if you’re on a Mac.
Aweright Cameron, aye mibbies writing on a Mac be John
Ah find the safest and best way is with, ‘key-strokes’… kinky
Upon reflection, the question marks could be “clothes-pegs” for the hanging up of the remainder of the Labour politicians in Scotland on the line tae dry oot…
?Richard Leonard?
?Anas Sarwar?
?James Kelly?
?Jackie Baillie?
?Jenny Marra?
?Johann Lamont?
?Alex Rowley?
?Neil Bibby?
Anna few insignificant others of no qualifiable mention
Ahhh… whit ah lovely waaashin’ that is
To produce a ‘smiley’ John, Just type: colon : dash – then right hand bracket ) altogether with no spaces.
The question marks always come when you try to just post already formed smiley’s on phone and or ipad/androed devices. We’ve aw been there 😉
Altogether 🙂
McDonnell’s intervention made it a good week, Chris, a very good week.
Your essential weekend reading:
And English honey trap: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-nSV
Too big to drive: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-nSc
I was ahead of the media with this: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-Li
How lang tae go NOW Leonard…?
Hannibal’s hung ye oot tae dry (and Jeremy hath spoken too)
You are a failing and falling branch, in real time
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-branch-office-jungle/
Richard, Richard, Richard…
What are we gonnae dae wae ye?
Once yer dry yer no even fit fur the basket
But you are an interesting case
.
Richard, time for you to join The long list of ex Labour leaders that occupied the Scottish branch office…
Kezia Dugdale
Alex Rowley (interim)
Jackie Baillie (interim)
Jim Murphy
Iain Gray
Johann Lamont
Anas Sarwar (interim)
Wendy Alexander
Jack McConnell…….
As for the supreme JC4PM deity PLEASE can someone call a doctor for Jeremy Corbyn…
https://tinyurl.com/VideoDr4Corbyn
That poor man finally admitted Labour would NOT object to IndyRef2, but Jeremy must have around 40 splinters lodged up his ar$e from all his fence sitting.
Is he capable of uttering a clear sentence?