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How to tell when Kezia Dugdale is lying

Posted on October 10, 2019 by

Her lips move.

On 21 June 2019 she said this:

But today we learned what happened in July 2019, literally just days later:

Ah, classic Kez.

After all, who could forget “I’m only in politics for the short term and I have no interest in becoming party leader”?

Right up until she DID become leader less than a year later:

And promptly said “I’m in politics for the long term”:

Before quitting 15 months after that:

Or “I might vote for independence, wait no I definitely wouldn’t”.

There was much fun when she said Jeremy Corbyn was incompetent:

Before dramatically rediscovering her faith seven short months on:

We all loved the righteous fury of “It’s inappropriate and outrageous for a party leader to stand both for a constituency seat and on the list to make sure they get in”

…coming as it did shortly prior to Dugdale using that exact route to occupy her own seat for eight years. She was in fact never once elected to a constituency seat.

And it seems almost needlessly cruel to bring up the whole “second referendums are absolutely wrong and should never be countenanced, right up to the point when I lose one, of course” routine:

But that’s mainly because nothing will ever top “as a matter of principle, everything I ever earn on top of my salary as a full-time MSP will be given to the charity of my best friend who has a dreadful terminal illness”.

“…unless it’s really LOADS of money, obviously, in which case sod principles, it’s going straight in my back pocket, LOL! What does he care? He’ll be dead soon anyway.”

We’re sure that faith and trust in politics will be restored any day now.

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148 to “How to tell when Kezia Dugdale is lying”

  1. Jules


  2. Alabaman

    That move has been on the cards for many a month or six.

  3. Alabaman

    Don’t think she’ll ever vote S.N.P. , but a vote for independence may,just may not be a vote too far for Kez.

  4. Robert J. Sutherland

    Kezia Dugdale? Who’s she?

    And should I care what she thinks (as told by the media) today anyway, since the chances are it’ll have changed by tomorrow..?

  5. Iain 2

    Labour, what a bunch of fannys.
    At the risk of being banned you could not make it up.
    They have the knack of snatching failure from the jaws of victory.
    Yesterdays men.

  6. Somerled

    I think someone should maybe keep an eye on her expenses at her new job

  7. Mist001

    Her partner is Jenny Gilruth, SNP MSP. I’ve been saying for a long time now, how interesting their pillow talk must be.

    Scotland. The home of Pink Politics.

  8. Bob Mack

    You dont think shes about go join the SNP or !ib Dems surely?

  9. SilverDarling

    She is a Blairite and her natural home now is with the Libdems. I would bet that is who she voted for in the EU referendum.

    I would be very surprised if she joined the SNP or even voted for them. There is a touch of the Chuka Umunna opportunism about her

  10. Independenista

    Dugdale is nothing more than a loathsome, self-serving, careerist arsehole. The left-over dregs of 1990s Blairite-ism, well beyond her sell-by date.

  11. Sinky

    Labour Welsh Government has just made a welcome acknowledgement of the right of any part of the UK to make a choice about its own constitutional future. Scottish Labour now out of step with their London & Cardiff comrades on this basic democratic matter

  12. Republicofscotland

    Dugdale was a usless flip flop of a politician, history will not look kindly on her. Good riddance I say.

  13. Douglas

    Oh Jeez! With the crazy way that the world of politics and media is going now, it would not surprise me if Kezia is to become the face of a resurrected ‘Better Together’compaign. Watch this space, as they say!!!

  14. SilverDarling

    *EU elections not referendum

    Kezia, Jo and and Ruth – Better Together Dream Team or the stuff of nightmares.

  15. Terry callachan

    Here we have an excellent report showing the close family ties between
    Westminster politics , BBC Scotland , Glasgow university , Labour Party in Scotland , its clear they groom their children for these jobs and move freely and unhindered to jobs in each of them

    Well we have seen Kezia Dugdale do it

  16. Phronesis

    This family of nations is not nurturing or protecting its most vulnerable , in fact quite the opposite.

    ‘This study provides evidence that the unprecedented rise in infant mortality disproportionately affected the poorest areas of the country, leaving the more affluent areas unaffected. Our analysis also linked the recent increase in infant mortality in England with rising child poverty’

    ‘One in three children – or 4.1m – are living in poverty in the UK. The charity UNICEF estimates that 2.5m British children, or 19%, now live in food insecure households. This means that there are times when their family doesn’t have enough money to acquire enough food, or they cannot buy the full variety of foods needed for a healthy diet. In addition, 10% of these children are also classified as living in severe food insecurity (the European average is 4%) and as a result are set to experience adverse health outcomes.
    The rates of hospital admissions due to rickets (a disease largely caused by severe malnutrition in the early stages of childhood) are at their highest for 50 years There is also increasing evidence of childhood stunting – impaired growth and development resulting from poor nutrition’

    ‘If politicians take the right action to address the causes of child poverty, no child need grow up experiencing financial hardship. This includes ensuring decently paid jobs; good, accessible childcare; and a strong social security system to keep people’s heads above water and provide support when it’s needed’

    ‘Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences’ Robert Louis Stevenson.

    “It is a matter of regret for the UK government that the transition of Cyprus from British administration to independence should have been preceded by five years of violence and loss of life, affecting all residents of the island.
    Now in their 80s, the Greek Cypriots filed the class action lawsuit four years ago. Two women were among the victims, whose claims of brutal treatment at the hands of British colonial forces ranged from rape to beatings and water boarding’

    This family of nations has been presided over by a narcissistic matriarch with a fondness for harsh parenting,thwarting healthy development with no concept of the rights of the child . Scotland has grown up and is leaving the crumbling family pile. Many other countries have also taken their leave and not looked back with any regret.
    Scotland will thrive as an independent nation standing on its own two feet, with its own written constitution and a strong focus on children’s rights. Mother will be compelled into lifelong therapy, finally relieved of her parental burden.

  17. dadsarmy

    Thanks for that. I think Carwyn Jones started it, and Mark Drakeford is continuing. And that it’s Sturgeon’s fault, she’s shown respect to the Welsh FMs and they ain’t used to it. Yes, Scottish Labour in comparison are back in Rees-Mogg’s era.

  18. Den Cairns

    Uch, that’s a wee shame. Now, regarding Scot Indy et al – please WOS, it’s followers and anyone else fir flucks sake please take a step back and consider that this denigrating into division is what has caused our demise in the past. We need an Independent Scottish Government NOW. Get a grip troops and hold onto that. Unity in that is vital for the survival of the Dream.

  19. galamcennalath

    Clearly Labour have always had followers of Marx in their hierarchy … “Those are my principles, and if you don’t like them… well, I have others.”…. Groucho, not Karl.

    There is nothing wrong with changing policy when circumstances change and / or new pertinent information becomes available. That’s sensible. However, u-turning on issues simply to improve your standing or chances of advancement is something quite different.

  20. Artyhetty

    These people such as her sold Scotland out, shafted Scotland, fuckd the people over big time. Troughing lying gits. Someone in comments says, ‘don’t be bitter move on’.

    Nah, call these liars out at every bloody opportunity, she is still in a cushy job within the political arena, in Scotland! Dangerous folk like her, conning people right, left and centre. Disgusting.

    Labour make me sick to the core, from their ten year reign at Holyrood, when they did absolutely nothing at all for Scotland, nothing for Scotland’s people, then sent £billions back to London WM, then plunged Scotland into £billions of debt for the next 25 years, then their disgraceful anti Scotland campaign in 2014, to now being in coalition in councils across Scotland to keep the SNP out.

    May Labour and their nasty little branch in Scotland rot in hell.

  21. Gary

    She can genuinely claim not to have lied. She DIDN’T quit when she left, she waited a few days. She didn’t ‘defect’ to another party – she left politics.

    That’s the kind of double talk we get from politicians, every dirty thing we always suspected of them is true. What WE call a lie, they call truth.

    Reminds me of how the rich treat the tax system. The tax system that is set up to benefit them, and only them. They don’t evade tax, they avoid it. They don’t embezzle money they get dividends just prior to their company going belly up owing small businesses and self employed people money with which they would pay others or their mortgage. Leeches on the body of the population. Despite billions in profit made by multinationals they pay no tax, the tax take comes predominantly from PAYE employees on lower than average earnings. To top it off the government subsidises these dodgy companies by allowing them to pay wages below what’s liveable and gives money over to top this up, instead of it coming out of precious untaxed profits. said politicians are rewarded for their betrayal of us by getting non executive directorships in these companies, vast sums for attending three meetings a year – a bribe by any other name…

  22. Effijy

    It is quite a skill to be a half Witt with 2 faces but FFS
    the establishment managed to her a job in a University
    Where she has so much less than nothing worthwhile
    To share with our students.

    She has already had the benefit of having a judge declare
    That see doesn’t understand what she is saying.

    Dippy Dug Dim and Delusional, Dead to Democracy.

  23. Welsh Sion

    First Minister Mark Drakeford:

    “British nationalism – good
    Welsh nationalism – bad”

    Not so very different from ‘Scottish’ Labour, then:

  24. Liz g

    Sinky @ dadsarmy
    Just finished reading the Welsh FM proposals ( thank you sinky )
    I’m afraid it’s really just pretendy federalism aimed at saving the Union.
    Westminster still the overseer of the whole thing when push comes to shove,but loads and loads of mutual respect!

  25. AndyMcKangry

    She’s a shallow media construct. Who gives a flying F**k what she says or what she does.
    Love must really be blind. How could a true supporter of Scottish independence look the road this MTV wannabee is on!!!

  26. Stephane Sechaud

    Labour movement in this country is a disgrace. Not one of them would admit to supporting Marxism in public. Even in England I’ve only ever seen one of them mention it positively. What type of moron claims to have a labour movement without promoting the critical analysis of capitalism that spawned the whole movement in the modern era?

  27. dadsarmy

    @Welsh Sion / @Liz g
    I know. The thing is though it really does put them ahead of Labour in S******* whose Smith Commission offering was the worst of the lot, with even the Tories saying their offering was the floor not the ceiling of the powers Shitland should get.

    Labour in Scotland have advanced Independence. I’d argue Labour in Wales have done the same. I remember in 2012 support for Indy in Wales according to a poll, was just 8%, which went up to 12% if Scotland went Indy.

    What’s the support for Indy in Wales now again? What was that expression, Indy-Curious?

    Carwyn Jones and Mark Drakeford – the march forward to Independence. LOLlers 🙂

  28. auld highlander

    And yet another here today gone tomorrow wannabe politician bites the dust.

  29. Cubby

    The dug is a Britnat and Britnats lie and they lie all the time about nearly everything.

  30. Cubby

    I really really hope the site owner wins his appeal.

  31. Andrew (Andy) Crow


    I don’t need to read the article.

    The lips move – she’s in fabrication mode.

  32. Robert J. Sutherland

    Welsh Sion @ 22:24,

    Oh dearie me, the federalism fairy flutters frantically afresh (however transiently) in Wales. Everything in London will get reformed now, just like Labour somehow missed out doing in the 18 years they were last in power. Aye right. While nearly half of England is positively lusting for a return to the 1950s under Rule Brittanamania.

    We gave up on this kind of pathetic drivel ages ago. Do the Welsh still swally the Broon Ale..?

  33. Andrew (Andy) Crow

    Republicofscotland says:

    “Dugdale was a useless flip flop of a politician, history will not look kindly on her.”

    History is going to notice….? I don’t see why.

  34. Dr Jim

    Kezia was always in the wrong party because they wouldn’t let her into the right party

    The bitterness followed then the failure made it worse then her own party turned on her

    If she hadn’t been such a liar it would be a sad story, an object lesson if you keep bitterness going life eventually punches you in the face

  35. dadsarmy

    Very true.

  36. Balaaargh

    It’s almost as if someone had a point to prove about Dugdale…


  37. Robert J. Sutherland

    Balaaargh @ 00:52,

    Not that it was hard to do, given a performance with more pirouettes in it than a ballet. (If rather less graceful.)

    Though at least it had more life to it while it lasted than the current clodhopping of Risible Lungebucket and his Diddy Ditherers.

  38. Osakisushi

    I have some trouble, if WoS appears as a List Party, believing Kezia will tick the box.
    For some reason, she may hold a grudge. (Kezia Fact Check #1482)

  39. twathater

    She ain’t no different to the shower of troughers who have permeated her party and Scotland for generations , I will celebrate their extinction

  40. Essexexile

    A fairly obvious link between this and the last article.
    I’m sure there’s a non elected position awaiting her aboard the good ship SNP whenever she’s ready (5 minutes after ruling it out probably).
    Her credentials are solid.

  41. Effijy

    Remember too how she didn’t like the STV voting system as 4th placed
    Politicians in an area could become an MSP.

    She chipped that she couldn’t accept an MSP position unless she was voted in as first choice.
    You guessed it.

    She was to become one of the back door MSPs!

    Her SNP partner must have in hell of a home life with a compulsive liar who doesn’t understand what she is saying. The perfect storm for a Labour leader.

  42. RM

    Be good if she joins the SNP and plenty other present labour, conservative and lib dem voters as well.

  43. Ken500

    Liars always get found out. Another one hits the dust. At least she is gone.

    Scotland has been held back for years because of lying Labour. Holyrood with as little power as possible. Tied to the Westminster rotting corpse. A bunch of shyster and liars. Taking £Billions out of Scotland. To line their pockets and then denying it. Scotland throughout history has been taxed and conscripted by the liars at Westminster to pay for their illegal wars, tax evasion abd financial fraud. Total mismanagement. Not treated equally. Used to subsidise London S/E.

    Thatcher misrule, lies and secrecy. Thatcher used Scotland’s funds to buy votes in London S/E. Subsidising bankers, building up Canary Wharf, Tilbury Docks and other projects. Lied about Scotland and scorched earth the Scottish economy.

    Blair/Labour caused all this mess. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. The illegal wars caused the worst migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. The Tories then used for crooked Brexit. The hedge funds could make a killing. A Gov illegally killing people. They are a disgrace.

    The contribution the UK pay the EU. £12Billion does not even cover the cost needed to try and sort out their mess. The EU countries have to carry the burden of the displaced people.Millions. Brexit will cost £Billions and ruin the world economy. UK Budget £666Billion. The evil troughers . The EU contribution for benefit a minute proportion. The Westminster imbeciles have caused the absolute shambles. If they had not blown up the Middle East there would no be so many refugees and migrants in Europe.

    Turkey now off again with the bloodshed. Do they not get sick if it. Just leave people to live in peace. The EU/UN might be able to stop the fighting. Gie’s peace, The UN should police the border or stop Erdogen starting more slaughter. The US is responsible for the slaughter in the Middle East. So has a responsibility for reconstruction and make a contribution.

    Lying Labour. The mass murderer appears to claim Scotland should not have it’s Independence. What’s it got to do with them. If Scotland gets better off, with better management. Somdoes the rest of the UK.

    Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Vote for a better world. Stop the imbeciles at Westminster destroying the world. The Westminster unionists crooks and liars are an international disgrace. Most of them should be in jail. Blair, Brown, Cameron, Osbourne, Clegg. Johnston. They can’t count or read a balance sheet. War criminals.

    What a complete and utter mess. They are even causing mental health problems. The worry, anxiety and frustration they have created. The rail line to nowhere while people are dying on the streets. The Tory slush fund, They are a complete and utter disgrace, Thank goodness for SNP good governance in Scotland. Improving the economy going to a better place.

  44. Ken500

    Another one hits the dust.

  45. Ken500

    People can’t help who they fall in love. There are plenty of divisions in many partnerships. Not always total agreement in many relationships.

  46. Breeks

    “Scotland’s first minister has insisted that a legal referendum is the only way for the country to win independence.”

    There you have it Scotland. Your sovereign First Minister is telling you that your democratic mandate means nothing and your Constitutional Sovereignty is NOT legal and counts for sweet fuck all, and that Scotland’s forced expulsion from Europe against its wishes is NOT an unlawful act of Colonial Subjugation contrary to International Law, but instead it’s Item B, subsection F on page 427 of Appendix D of the SNP 2020 Election Manifesto.

    No wonder the SNP promotes self ID when it’s led by so many invertebrates who ID themselves as Scottish Nationalists.

    As for Scotland, anybody have the will for an emergency crowd fund to see if we can buy our own Constitutional Lawyer who can take our case to the UN and EU? There is still time, but precious little of it left.

  47. Ken500

    There have been mixed toilets in the Forgan restaurant, St, Andrews for years. Separate cubicles Labelled individually men or women or whatever. Separate cubicles sink, soap and water. Quite handy for hygiene. They could not be more open and safer with absolutely no problems. More open often means more safety. Everyone can see what is going on. There is no exclusion for attacks. Just a row of toilets,

  48. Davie Oga

    Dont fret Breeks. The FM told us that Scotland would get the chance to decide after the terms of Brexit were known and before the UK left.

  49. Terry callachan

    Your argument is misguided shared toilets are not safer just because they are shared.
    Men cause the problem
    Many many many more men assault women than women assault men

    Logically a bathroom with ten women will have fewer assaults than a bathroom with five men and five women

    That’s plain logic and common sense

    There is no need for all facilities to be shared
    Women don’t want that
    They have the right to bathrooms that are not shared

  50. Ken500

    The only Referendum the voters will accept is a legal one. If it take a bit longer so be it. It is better to win it conclusively and legally. For future prosperity. Scotland is going in a better direction economically and spiritually. Support is rising. The voters will decide it.

    Adrian O’Neil was once totally not in favour of Independence. He claimed Scotland had no right to a Referendum. It was totally illegally. Until the EURef. His lucrative EU work could dry up. Hit his pockets. Now he argues in the Court of Session for Scotland’s right to be separate and Independent of the Westmibster insubordination.

    The separate Scottish legal system. Guaranteed under the terms of the Treaty of Union. Infiltrated for a period. The Terms of the Treaty of Union reneged upon before the ink was dried. Taxes and conscription to pay for Westminster illegal wars. Queen Anne of Orange, the last of the Stuarts. Cromwell had taken over for a period. The Jacobite rebellion 1715/45 cruelly put down. The fight for Scottish Independence continues. Through the Ballot Box 1928. Universal Suffrage.

    Westminster illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion have cost Scotland and the world dear. Caused havoc. Now the Brexit complete and utter mess costing £Billions. An absolute disgrace.

  51. Allan Watson

    Rev re my post yesterday regarding the GRA issue, from your research what are the figures of those directly effected by this issue?

    Interesting to see what the percentage is of the 5.5 million population of Scotland

  52. admiral

    BBC Scotlandshire propaganda in full flow. Just said that according to the CBI there will be huge amounts of investment released “once Brexit is complete”.

  53. Robert Peffers

    @Gary says: 10 October, 2019 at 10:17 pm:

    ” … Despite billions in profit made by multinationals they pay no tax, the tax take comes predominantly from PAYE employees on lower than average earnings.”

    No, Gary, The main tax burden predominately now comes from indirect taxation, not from direct taxation. This swap from direct tax, (on earnings and wealth), was changed by Labour to indirect taxation, (on goods and services), and everyone, w3hether they earn or not pays indirect taxation.

    Indirect taxation is such as VAT, Road Fuel Duty, Alcohol Duty, Tobacco duty, Betting Tax, and many more. It has always been known that indirect taxation shifts the main burden of taxation from those best able to pay to those least able to pay.

    Ask yourself this – what was the first things done by the Tory government upon taking over government from Blair’s Labour?

    The answer is they upped the rate of VAT, increased Road Fuel Duty and brought more items under VAT. Along with giving changing the tax bands to favour the wealthy. Statistics show that since Labour lost to the Tories the most wealthy in the UK have more than doubled their personal wealth. Note that you cannot be increasing your wealth and simultaneously be under austerity measures. So much for us all being in it together.

  54. Colin Alexander


    Ms Sturgeon is First Minister of the North Britain Colony aka Scottish Government.

    So, it’s no surprise to me that Ms Sturgeon regards Scotland’s sovereignty and right to democratic self-determination as something under the control of the UK state.

    The FM believes in Scottish independence delivered via a British Govt indyref2: Like believing the Christmas presents will be delivered by Santa.

    Ach well, I won’t be voting SNP at the General Election either.

  55. Essexexile

    Breeks 7.44am
    I would happily contribute to such a fund. Clarification is needed.

  56. Heart of Galloway


    Your slip’s showing son. In case you need reminding, the day after every region of Scotland voted to remain, Nicola Sturgeon said the people’s pro EU verdict made IndyRef2 “very likely”.

    So right from the kick-off IR2 has been the accepted route to giving the sovereign people of Scotland a second chance of saving their country.

    And they will get that chance in April-Sept next year.

    Why? Because in her interview with Brian Taylor the FM DIDN’T say she “would hold off on moving to actually trigger such a vote until she can get the UK government to back it via a “section 30 order.”

    Which is what the BBC said she said, on the link you provided Breeks.

    The FM’s actual stance – correct in my view – is that IR2 has to be be beyond legal dispute, IOW internationally recognised. Otherwise the British state will cut us down like new mown hay.

    “Beyond legal dispute” is NOT the same thing as requiring a S30 agreement. As I have said before, agreement on securing it will assuredly be sought, but if that offer is spurned the ScotGov’s Referendums Act – which it will soon become – will be the means by which that international legitimacy is secured.

    In yesterday’s interview – and this is NOT reported in the article – when BT pressed NS on what would happen if a S30 request was dismissed, the FM said the ScotGov would take “the appropriate measures”.

    Which is coded language for THIS REFERENDUM WILL BE HELD.

    “Your sovereign First Minister is telling you that your democratic mandate means nothing and your constitutional sovereignty is not legal”.

    Funny, I could have sworn I didn’t hear NS say that.

    Give us a freaking break Breeks, we have enough Duke of Hamiltons on here.

  57. Lenny Hartley

    Allan Watson regarding Gra think there are just under 50% of the population who if this act became law would be able to self ID as female. Of that 2.5 million odd people a higher percentage will be paedophiles, and those likely to be sexual predators than the under 1% of the population who are Trans and already have a Route to change sex legally.

  58. Footsoldier

    Time to drop Kezia topic.

  59. mike cassidy

    Alan Watson 8.21

    The answer is 5.5 million

  60. sassenach

    Coco @8-35

    “Ach well, I won’t be voting SNP at the General Election either.”

    To those of us familiar with your output on here, it is so obvious you never have and never will, vote SNP.

    So what’s new, my unionist ‘friend’??

  61. Ken500

    Labour liar Brown who caused world poverty. Illegal wars, tax evasion and financial fraud. The banking crasher who can’t count or read a balance sheet. Embezzling £Millions of public funds. Now claims child poverty is increasing. Thanks to him.

    The (SNP) is arranging a £10 a week payment for children to alleviate child poverty. Being held up by Westminster maladministration. The (SNP) Gov pay kinship payments so less children are in care. They give extra time and monies to children in foster care and education. Increased student support. More students from poorer families given grants and support.

    Building more affordable house, 6,000 a year the target. MUP will indirectly reduce child poverty. Save lives. More funding available to relieve poverty. Scotland could have had full employment. Without the mismanagement of Oil & Gas, fishing and farming sector by Westminster unionists. Scotland would have been better off.

    The Westminster austerity has increased child poverty and elderly death. The Westminster unionist imbeciles cut welfare benefits, education and NHS funding. The (SNP) Gov had to alleviate and mitigate the cuts in funding. Scottish Gov funding was cut. Despite tax revenues raised in Scotland increasing, The appalling Barnett funding and mismanagement holding Scotland back. The Tories attacked women and children, They bore the brunt of austerity. Mindless cuts. The wealthier got tax cuts. The poorer died.

    The Brexit mess so the Hedge Funds can tax evade. Mental health problems are on the increased because of all the worry and uncertainty people are not sleeping. Alcohol is a depressant. Too much for the human body, MUP will help to sort it. The more people drink/drug the more depressed they get. They can overdose and die earlier.

    Proper total abstinence, one chance rehab costs a few £thousands and often has to be paid privately or through insurance. Poorer people cannot afford it. Prison costs £40,000. Prison and social services costs £Millions. People on methadone prescriptions take other substances and die. It is more destructive than heroin. The State is acting as a drug dealer and killing people.

    Everyone should have access to proper total abstinence, one chance rehab counselling. They can get the chance and help to recover. It is more cost affective and cheaper. It should be keot primary under the SNHS. Instead of councils social care. Many do not have a clue. Nurse practitioners, who drink wine every night, prescribing endless methadone prescription. It should be for a limited period. Worse than heroin. People taking other substances and dying. The cause of all drug deaths in Scotland and suicides? Misrecorded death.

    Everyone deserves one chance. It is cheaper and more cost affective than all the other services needed. Police, fire, social care, justice system etc. Proper rehab care gets people well and happier. It affects everybody in society. Alcohol consumption in Scotland is going down. Decreasing the deaths. 25% down since MUP was introduced. A good start which will improve. Keeping people healthier. Young people are getting the message at last.

    Labour were the only ones against MUP and Blair introduced 24 hour drinking. People do not have to be out of their face to have a good time or face problems. Quite the opposite. People who need help should ask for it and get it. There are slight waiting times for mental health care but acute cases get it right away do not have to wait. They are committed as in patients, although some refuse and need other help to be available. Some patients will not take the drugs prescribed. Need other methods.

    People on the spectrum also need consideration and help with anxiety and tge noise of public places. Too many are in prison without proper support in place, they can be vulnerable to outside influence. They do get extra financial help, as a right for diversity. They need assisted job places and consideration. With a little help they can be great employees. Employers should be more enlightened.

  62. Footsoldier

    Ken500 08:16 Once Brexit is settled, one way or the other, only diehards will want more constitutional conundrums and the cause of Scottish independence will face an uphill struggle.

    If the Brexit outcome is dire, adding yet more chaos with
    Scottish independence is unlikely to appeal to the population at large who are tired of it all.

    It’s not as if the SNP are painting a picture of what an independent Scotland will look like, it is mainly blank apart from comments on equality, fairness, LGBT etc – hardly am earth mover.

  63. Bob Mack

    I will vote SNP for very obvious reasons. Wno else is there for indy?

    I was very unhappy at Nicola yesterday re the route to indy.

    It smacks of the old carrot on a stick approach to keeping your donkey moving forwar.

    There is no time left really to utilise Brexit as the medium of escape. There appears to be no will either.

    So here we are. Rev, hurry up and get your party started.

    I hope im proved wrong,

  64. HandandShrimp

    Not really a surprise, last three years of Labour whirling like a lost kite in a tree over Brexit has melted a lot of former Labour stalwart brains. If the polls in Scotland are to be believed it has melted their vote like snow on a duke in June too.

    Lib Dems? Possibly but they are becoming increasingly the former Tory Party Party. I can see Kezia going into the third sector or similar and turning her back on politics.

  65. Capella

    OT yesterday The National front page printed the declaration for independence by many high profile Scottish cultural figures.

    Some of the cringy comments btl are hilarious – top cultural figures?… from Take the High Road etc. This is how BBC Scotland presenters responded to the talk of a Scottish TV channel. “What would it have on? Monarch of the Glen? River City? Boring.”

    The poverty of vision of the BBC, mentally incapable of thinking beyond their cultural prison, saturates public discourse in this country.
    Deliberately I guess.

  66. Bryan Weir

    Balaaargh says:
    11 October, 2019 at 12:52 am

    “It’s almost as if someone had a point to prove about Dugdale…”

    I thought that too. Kezia Dugdale is now an irrelevance. Why spend time dismantling her further? There are more important things to be done.

  67. Socrates MacSporran

    Breeks, Colin Alexander

    You have both been contributing to Wings for some time now, yet you still do not appear to have appreciated Realpolitick

    In 1707 the Scottish Parliament, illegally perhaps, wrongly certainly, definitely in an undemocratic manner, prorogued itself and handed authority to the newly-formed UK Parliament.

    England immediately assumed by this act, they had taken-over Scotland, and that assumption was allowed to grow legs between 1707 and 2015, when, for the first time ever, there was a majority of pro-independence Scottish MPs at Westminster.

    Westminster works largely by custom and practice, in the four years they have had, that majority of Scottish MPs have tried and as yet failed to convince Westminster of the case for Independence.

    They have however, succeeded in getting the Claim of Right accepted, which says – The People of Scotland are sovereign

    However, having a majority of pro-independence Scottish MPs is not a mandate for Independence. BUT having a majority of the Scottish electorate vote for Independence at a properly run referendum IS such a mandate.

    This is what the FM is after, but, to get this, she requires a Section 30 order, this will tie Westminster to agreeing to the outcome of that referendum.

    I hae ma doots about this all our eggs in one basket approach; but, that appears to be the route the SNP is going down, which means, they have to work with Westminster, who hold the whip hand.

    I would like to see a Plan B, and have a hope that the likes of Joanna Cherry has maybe come up with an alternative route, perhaps via the courts, which we could use.

    I do worry, however, that time is running out for Ian Blackford and the Westminster SNP group to come up with a means of living-up to their oft-repeated mantra: “Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against its will.” They may have less than three weeks, and counting.

  68. Footsoldier

    Capella 09:28 – I could not agree more with what you say about the BBC but it is also at UK level.

    The narrow parochial vision of the London based media is there for all to see and exemplified by the BBC. Obsessed with America we get minutiae of what is happening in USA politics and elections while our nearest neighbours are ignored.

    Unless it was some disaster, before Brexit we heard nothing about Ireland or our neighbours across the channel. The EU and EU elections were something to be ignored in comparison with the BBC usual priorities and that included Scotland too and still does.

    Time the BBC put their hands up and admitted the disdain and ignorance of the EU by a huge swathe of the UK population is thanks to the BBC’s narrow vision. “Nation shall speak unto nation” don’t make me laugh. Time they had a good look at themselves because they are approaching “time’s up”.

  69. Ken500

    Less women are assaulted in mixed toilets, changing rooms and open spaces. They give women (people) more access to facilities. More women (people) can use them. Especially women as main carers.

    There is less attack by transgenders. A minute proportion of the population.

    The place were more women are attacked and murdered (statistically) by huge proportion is in their own space. Their own homes that is where the vast majority of attacks take place. By male family members and ‘friends’. That is the problem. The attackers are mainly men.

    More men (four times more) are attacked and murdered by other men, than women. Statistically.

    Crime is a gender issue. More men commit crime. Men lash out. Women internalise Nuture is nature? Crime is down in Scotland. An older population? .Younger 18-24 men commit violent crime against each other. Crime is often drink drug related. The drink’s in the wit’s oot.

    Most Transgender people would not hurt a fly. They are gentle people. There are so few of them in any case to be a massive problem. 1%. They still have to be accommodated as a right . If self ID is the answer so be it.

    Many people are not born to the norm. They can have conflicting to the norm DNA genetic tracts. A bit of empathy, sympathy and compassion would not go amiss. They are someone’s (woman’s) baby. Instead of a neurotic witch hunt of other’s people prejudice and ignorance. A storm in a teacup. A mountain out of a mole hill of mass hysteria and outrage of someone different.. Not borne out by statistics or the facts.

    Most transgender people would not hurt a fly. In fact quite the opposite, They can self harm and commit suicide because of anxiety and self loathing. They do not think they fit into they bodies, Although surgery should be put off, if possible, until 18/21 age. Teenagers are off their heads in any case. Their brains and bodies are expanding at such a fast rate, often causing confusion. Fastest rate of the human development. Except from 0-2 when humans need lot of one to one support.

    Transgender people need support just like everyone else. They should get it. If self ID is the answer so be it. It is not a major problem. People should just be more accepting. It is just a matter of changing a name or a birth certificate. People do it every day.

    Any transgender person who commits crime is punished just like anyone else. More transgender people in sport. More people would watch it. It is big business. Anyone who disapproved do not watch it. It is a team game with a mixture of strengths and personalities. In rugby many people get hurt. It is a dangerous, violent game. That is why it is a minority sport. Less people want to,play it for injury. Sectarian clubs. No wonder the terraces are empty. Less people want to view it. It is a business. Major debts if less viewers or participants. Lose of earnings.

  70. Scot Finlayson

    I remember my first trip abroad,1984 in Paris,and i am sure all the bars and cafe had one loo for all sexes and genders and most of the loos were just a hole in the ground,

    think the French see things different from the tight laced prudes of the UK,

    i blame the union and the unionists who still yearn for the glory days of Empire and the lie of Victorian values.

  71. Bob Mack


    Please shut up.
    . Its becoming embarassing

  72. Fireproofjim

    Hand and shrimp 9.26
    Sometimes predictive text comes up with a goody.
    Loved “ melts like snow on a Duke”

  73. Breeks

    Heart of Galloway says:
    11 October, 2019 at 9:02 am


    Your slip’s showing son. In case you need reminding, the day after every region of Scotland voted to remain, Nicola Sturgeon said the people’s pro EU verdict made IndyRef2 “very likely”.

    We need decisive sovereignty. You offer tepid alphabet soup.

    So right from the kick-off IR2 has been the accepted route to giving the sovereign people of Scotland a second chance of saving their country.

    Accepted by whom? I denounced Sturgeon’s abdication of sovereignty and wholesale surrender of initiative to Westminster the moment it was pronounced. To say it was ‘accepted’ is pure gaslighting/ wishful thinking by you.

    And they will get that chance in April-Sept next year…

    … after our EU Citizenship is stripped from us and after our Constitutional Sovereignty has been subjugated.

    Why the fk am I wasting time communicating with a cabbage which doesn’t understand the concept of international sovereignty? Any chance you could put the Brains of Galloway on the line?

  74. Golfnut

    @ Socrates MacSporran.

    Nicola has also said that the Referendum will be unchallengable, an S30 order doesn’t do that, the Edinburgh Agreement was supposed to be the failsafe, but I think even that would have been challenged in court. So, something else in the background, some action already completed or to be completed, which ensures neither the legality or result can’t be challenged. An action we are not seeing or are failing to recognise.
    Perhaps the Britnat obsession with the 2021 Holyrood GE, i.e. through the Scottish Parliament, is seen as the last chance saloon for the Union to reverse a pro Indy result and not the courts.

  75. Ken500

    The whole point is Brexit will never be settled. There is no chance. The fall out wiukdvsebt people back to supporting the EU. Rejoining? The Tories are so completely useless. It is alarming. The sooner they go the better. Theybwill have to have an election they can lose. The unionists always do. That is their way out of their chaos. Since 1928, Who wants the poisoned chalice?

    Thatcher was brought down in just the same way because of the Tory EU conundrum. The rest of the Tories (won) wanted closer ties with Europe. Geoffrey Howe.. it was only closer ties with The EU that improved the British economy. After the Thatcher violent misgovernment, especially for Scotland. The lies and deceit. Cameron should never have proposed an EURef. Too important for the UK economy.

    The Leave side lied and acted unlawfully. Johnston lied in order to be PM. Now struggling. Everyone is sick of it. They cannot exit. Especially without a deal. It is impossible. There will have to be another election. The Tories can lose, To get them out of their stalemate. The unionists do it all the time. The next lot come in and muck it up.

  76. Bob Mack


    Ba ha ha, What a belter of a !ast sentence. Patience has limits

  77. starlaw

    This transgender thing and mixed toilets, men in womens jails etc. this is the sort of thing MI5 would introduce to destroy a political party, Its like something out of the Westminster department of mis information used so successfully during WW2.

  78. HandandShrimp


    The predictive text on my tablet is particularly perverse. I usually catch most of them. If I knew how to switch it off I would. 🙂

  79. Bob Mack

    to summarise the roads to indy on what we think so far;

    1. A section 30 order agreed with Westminster.

    2. A devious plan in the background which is going to be legal and binding but is for now top secret.

    3.We just declare ourselves independent.

    Good luck with those. Two are feasible,whilst the other is highly dubious.

  80. Brian Doonthetoon

    A reminder…

    “Back in 2014 we brought in the first ever mass produced Yes Flags.
    It wasn’t easy, At the time it was the biggest single import we’d done and it was hit by snags , and delays, and initial doubts from donors.
    But eventually, with help along the way, we succeeded and provided #Indyref1 with a great shot in the arm at a crucial period. This time around we’re making another 6000 of the original Yes Saltires, 3000 EU Saltires, 1500 Yes Saltire Car Flags, and 1500 sets of Yes Saltire car wing mirror covers**.”
    “As in 2014 we will take no profit from this venture. Any excess funds that do come our way will be passed on to Yes causes as a future referendum, or political stand-off – we don’t know how this will pan out- unfolds.
    There will be various, basic, perks available to donors large and small.”

    More info at this link:-

  81. robert alexander harrison

    The only more screwed up scum than dugdale the English rule suck up who said no matter how beneficial independence is for Scotland shed still chose the union is boris Johnson.

  82. Capella

    Article in The National listing the writers, broadcasters, actors and artists who have signed the Declaration of Independence. Delighted to see so many well known names have stuck their heads above the parapet. Brave.

  83. Capella

    Article in The National listing the writers, broadcasters, actors and artists who have signed the Declaration of Independence. Delighted to see so many well known names have stuck their heads above the par*pet. Brave.

  84. Bob Mack

    looks very much like a Brexit deal is finding traction in the EU znd the UK.

  85. Liz g

    Scot Finlayson @ 10.03am
    Sigh…. For the umpteenth time… It’s about a lot more than public toilets.
    Do you really see Scots women as that shallow and needing educated by European examples?
    It’s about hospitials,the giving an receiving of intimate care,and mainly about the dignity and body integrity of children.
    It renders the most unusual places unusable one example being youth hostels…
    No one is saying Trans People are more or less dangerous than anyone else….
    What we are pointing out is…
    What they are proposing will give LEGAL cover to all sorts of Actual Perverts Across the board…
    Any ex who wants the address of a woman’s refuge ( you do know that they are kept secret and with good reason don’t you ) only has to say that they are Trans and escaping a violent partner…… These men to go extraordinary lengths to find the women who escape as it is….
    Why is that always being reduced to Toilets??

  86. Colin Alexander

    Socrates MacSporran said:

    “They have however, succeeded in getting the Claim of Right accepted”.

    I would dispute that. Your evidence please?


    That was a non-binding debate.

    This? The Claim of Right from the constitutional convention where the Labour and LibDems declared the belief that the people of Scotland have the right to decide the form of govt that best suits their needs. Those same parties who say: no to indyref.

    Maybe the Cherry / Miller cases that ruled the Crown (of England) in UK Parliament is sovereign in the UK State so UK Parliament exercises sovereignty in the UK?

    I’m open to your arguments: where’s the documentary basis for that assertion please?

    Ms Sturgeon is misleading people by implying that an indyref is THE guaranteed legal method of recognition of independence. It’s simply not true. States choose whether to recognise other states. There is no law saying they must.


    The UK and EU accept Ireland as an independent country. Tell me: when did Ireland hold an indyref? They didn’t.

    How about Lithuania, another EU member. Did they hold an indyref prior to declaring independence? No. They declared independence first. They LATER held a confirmatory indyref. This is comparable to SNP policy for many years, which I believe should be the “Plan A” now. The indyref first strategy was only adopted circa 2000.

    Assuming I’ve got it all wrong and the SNP loyalists are correct: If indyref2 is so assuredly coming in 2020, then I have no need to vote SNP. I believe Scotland should not be sending MPs to Westminster at all; logically I should abstain. I should be more logical.

  87. jfngw

    So far the SNP’s standing by EU citizens waiting to be thrown out has been about as effective as writing to BBC Point Of View with some complaint. It will be given some airtime then you will polity be told to F Off.

  88. Boudicca

    On Hampstead Heath in London there are natural ponds, three of which are for swimming, have been used for donkey’’s years. One for men, one for women, and one for mixed sex. The women’s only pond is now allowing self ID ‘women’ to use it, no checks. Thus this now unusable for women who do not wish to share with men, and Muslim women who certainly do not wish to share with men. That’s their safe space snookered. So please put a sock in it Ken.

  89. Liz g

    Me @ 11.53
    And it’s about denying science…
    I’d like everyone to imagine an elderly female relative in need of intimate care or an intimate hospital examination!
    And everyone insisting that the Bloke with the Beard is really the female nurse she requested?
    Oh and if she insists on misgendering NHS staff the police will be called,just like the notice on the wall says!!

    That’s not a “gentle harmless” thing that Trans People are requesting ….. And I’d say if anyone still thinks it is…
    There’s something far fucking wrong with them!!

  90. Liz g

    Me again @ 12.06
    Or an elderly r**e victim….

  91. Blair Paterson

    This trans gender thing let’s call them what they are freaks of nature men who think they are women and women who think they are men,they are only a small number of people but the publicity they are given is out of all proportion the whole thing is a farce as usual today minorty are given more time than majority as for independense Wallace and Collins knew the way to achieve it

  92. Elmac

    I have always thought that Boris the Buffoon has only ever wanted a no deal Brexit. He is a puppet for the dark money men who stand to make a financial killing if the UK crash out and who want to ensure that their offshore billions continue to avoid scrutiny and tax.

    So what are we to make of today’s suggestion that a deal is in the offing? My guess is that Johnson sees this as his only means of sidestepping the Benn Act. I think his plan is to appear to secure a deal in the next few days, subject only to tying up some “minor” details, thereby creating uncertainty for Parliament. He hopes Parliament will then temporarily suspend the provisions of the Benn Act to allow him time beyond 19th October to conclude the deal and bring it before Parliament. The deal may even be concluded prior to 31 October but Johnson will ensure that he has a method of scuppering it before it actually comes into force – just before midnight on 31st October. Hey Presto no deal applies with no time for Parliament to act. The UK is out of Europe, Boris is off the hook and his masters have what they want.

    Please tell me I am wrong.

  93. Ken500

    It is quite possible people have got their flags and do not need anymore right now. Supply and demand. They can be purchased in other places. It might be an oversupply. Great campaign in any case.

    The Waspi women denied their pension rights will have to claim unemployment, sickness benefit or receive payment on their husband pension rights. Or other welfare benefits. Housing benefit. It is possible this will cost more than just giving them their promised pension rights. An economic benefit. Women retired now who worked P/T were denied pension rights. They could not join pension schemes. Their work contribution was over looked. Some were told to pay the small stamp by Gov denying them pension rights. They get rights on their husband contributions. Or have to receive too up allowance. Now people can qualify for the basic £140 per week. A low amount.

    OAP should be increased to £180+ a week. The administration of OA Pension cost almost as much as the sum paid out, The administration costs of top up benefits are more than just increasing the sum of the OA pension. That can be seen on Gov accounts. All Scotland (UK) pension/benefits are paid from current tax revenues raised in Scotland. In Scotland the OA pension could be higher that would cut out the cost of administration for additional benefits. Cutting costs and raising benefit. Giving people dignity as a right. It is already being done with other devolved benefits.

    If the UK Gov stopped spending money on wasteful projects. £Billions. Illegal wars, redundant weaponry, Trident, HS2, Hinkley Point. All with safer better alternatives. Pension allowances could be increased. More monies could be spent on pensions and essential services. Pensioners pay tax if wealthier. Elderly women pensioners, who live longer, are the most likely to be in poverty and students. Students for a limited period.

  94. Ken500

    ‘Freaks of nature’. Where does that come from. So offensive and ignorant. Some people are just born outside of the norm. There is a spectrum for everyone. Different genes DNA. No one fits into a complete formation pattern. All shapes and sizes. All different brains. There just have to be compromises for a small consideration. That is a fact of human formation and nature. Nature or nurture. The advance of human science confirmation.

  95. Iain mhor

    @Golfnut 1020am

    There were screeds of column inches everywhere, dedicated to exactly the same topic back in 2012-2014, never mind the last three years. Result: who knows, inconclusive, unknown, open to interpretation. Whatever the legal magic beans are, they must be novel – I don’t believe there are any novel magic beans.
    The only conclusion then, was that a legal gamble was riskier than trying a referendum – for both sides. Things which go to court are practically by definition “challengeable” and always risky. It’s just one of those linguistic tells among many, such as: ‘Unarguable’, ‘Undeniable’, ‘Unquestionable’, ‘Undoubtable’, ‘Unchallengeable’ and anything with the exclamation ‘Fact’ in it.

    These and their variants, all mean much the same thing: ‘scrutinise everything this person just said, with an intense scrute…’ If uttered by a politician or lawyer, just assume it’s all a lie and work from there, it saves a lot of time.

  96. callmedave


    Jings! ftse250 up nearly 600pts (>3% up).

    £ up to 1.141 V Euro.

    Strange day at the stock market. the Yankee DOW kicks in soon?

  97. SilverDarling

    @Blair Paterson

    I think calling them freaks is harsh. There are conditions that result in people ultimately wanting to ‘transition’. For example, body dysmorphia where they believe their body is unnaturally ugly or deformed and gender dysphoria where they feel more akin to another gender perhaps in the way the world reacts to the body they inhabit and they feel they reject that and want to be treated differently and wont unless their body or appearance is different.

    The common theme with these is an unhappiness with the body they inhabit that presents as mental distress or illness. Sometimes the distress is alleviated by altering that body but many times it is not.

    We now have a repertoire of supposed ‘treatments’ that allows intervention with drastic surgery and hormone drug treatment at terrifyingly early levels as the medical and psychological criteria for transitioning becomes more and more relaxed.

    GRA reform in allowing a laxity of criteria around self identification legally makes it easier for men who just want access to women’s bodies and safe spaces for nefarious purposes.

    The whole thing is a horrible mess.

  98. Colin Alexander

    We haven’t even established whether there is any UK, if Scotland declared indy.

    Mr Peffers tells us there would be a reversion to the preceding situation: Kingdom of England and Kingdom of Scotland.

    Is that the case?

    Can the Union be revoked or unilaterally revised ( such as Holyrood being declared the representatives of Scotland instead of MPs)?

    How does Scotland go about doing such things?

    Does Scotland and England continue to exist or only GB exists now?

    All these questions are not answered by an indyref.

  99. SilverDarling

    I should add the GRA reform allows for men who do not have any medical or psychological conditions, ie they do not want to transition to say they are women anyway. They can then access women’s safe spaces much more easily.

  100. Bob Mack

    @Colin Alexander,

    Many questions ,but only one real truth.

    Whatever delays or hurdles or mechanisms exist to independence, only one serious pzrty is offering that option.

    That is the bottom line.

  101. jeff

    UDI sounds great, but how does anyone know a majority wants independence yet? Wld look pretty dumb to call UDI then have a confirmatory referendum and lose it?

  102. Breeks

    Not being an SNP member, how would you go about starting an initiative at the SNP Conference to demand a Scottish Constitutional Backstop?

    Can grassroots members demand it? Or would an Extinction Rebellion type disruptive protest be more effective?

    Asking for a friend…

  103. Dr Jim

    The Irish border has been making its way from Ireland to Stranraer under military escort then on through Paisley and has been last seen in Dumfries, reports are coming in it might be on its way to Wolverhampton, the public are warned not to approach the border or take photographs

    Neither the UK or Irish governments is accepting responsibility for this border and as it’s in Scotland at the moment claims are that the blame lies squarely on the shoulders of Sturgeons Scottish Nationalist separatists who are cynically using this as another push for their grievance agenda

    Prime Minister Boris Johnson said the Scots vermin would do better to fix their NHS which is the worst in all the Greek Islands of the world…bar none

  104. robertknight


    “In 1707 the Scottish Parliament, illegally perhaps, wrongly certainly, definitely in an undemocratic manner, prorogued itself and handed authority to the newly-formed UK Parliament”.

    No, it didn’t. It handed authority to the Parliament of Great Britain. The UK Parliament wasn’t created until 1801. The 1707 Act’s Article 3 states…

    III. ‘That the united Kingdom of Great-Britain be represented by one and the same
    Parliament, to be stiled the Parliament of Great-Britain.

    The 1800 act states…

    Article Third.

    That it be the third article of union, that the said United Kingdom be represented in one and the same parliament, to be stiled “The Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.”

  105. callmedave

    Hmm! Someone has blinked it seems on the Brexit conundrum.

    nu tell on discussions on the tunnel!

    Stock markets believe in the end of the rainbow.

    ftse 250 up 635pts now. £ up more V Eu.

    NI and DUP maybe thrown under bus who knows? 🙁

  106. Colin Alexander

    jeff said:
    11 October, 2019 at 12:58 pm

    Colin says:

    Pretty dumb to have an indyref when nobody knows what indy means.

    eg reversion to Kingdoms of Scotland and England or Scotland breaks away from UK leaving rUK.

  107. Dr Jim

    Thousands of people who voted to leave the European Union complain about flights being cancelled going to the European Union

  108. Bob Mack

    Brexit deal could be bluff by Johnson tk avoid sending letter for extension. Delicate negotiations and all that.

  109. Ian Brotherhood

    Almost at the 888,888 comments mark.

    Another milestone of sorts.


  110. Terry callachan

    The EU and Ireland are considering proposals put forward by B Johnston that are almost the same as those put forward by T May months ago.

    No border on the island or Ireland .

    Agricultural goods to be freely traded between Ireland and NI

    Other goods going into NI will have EU tariffs applied but there will be a scheme where people in NI can apply for a refund of those tariffs

    Basically NI is to be treated as still in the EU tariffs will be applied to everything except agricultural stuff that is traded only between NI and Ireland and NI people will be able to apply for tariff refunds

    So the border will actually be in the Irish Sea

    DUP didn’t like T Mays similar simpler version of this and stopped brexit with their votes in Westminster

    This time their votes are meaningless.
    DUP will be angry more so with the other part of this agreement which is the bit needed to satisfy the EU which is that every few years , 4 yrs last I heard, the people in NI will have a neverendum referendum to decide if the border in the Irish Sea continues or NI reunifies with the south

  111. HandandShrimp

    I see Marra was outraged that there was a Skoda waiting outside Holyrood, presumably to take Nicola down to Bute House (when the lazy bissom could easily have skateboarded down the road).

    Fake outrage is fake – as they say on the interwebs 🙂

  112. Dr Jim

    Aye but it’s a Skoda limousine

  113. Clydebuilt

    BBC . . . SRU VS SFA

    Weekly sports round up on John Beattie prog. Hosted by Ken. MacDonald . . . . 90% of time available given to Scot. Rugby team in Japan, followed by The Mull (car) Rally no mention of The Scotland football team game with Russia .

    In days up to the game there was often no mention of our football teams upcoming game, and on the rare occasion football got a mention it always came after Rugby was covered at length. This was the case on the day of the football match.

    Has Steve Clarke upset the BBC, are the BBC trying to remove our Football team from the National consciousness.

    Whatever The state broadcaster’s intentions are they are giving prominence to Rugby over Scottish football, undermining our national sport.

  114. Liz g

    Colin Alexander @ 1.48
    Everyone knows what it means Colin….
    It means Scotland is Governed from the Holyrood Parliament nothing more and nothing less…
    As to the status of the EX UK there’s nothing stopping that being discussed before the Referendum on the Yes side..
    In 2014 it was Westminster and the British Unionist parties who refused to discuss what anything would “look like” in the event of a Yes vote.
    There’s very little we can do about that!!
    Are you seriously saying we can’t have a Referendum because Westminster won’t talk about it??
    That’s like sayin a couple can never divorce unless they both plan the future!
    We are planning the future of Scotland and if Westminster still won’t plan theirs that’s their issue,don’t ye think?

  115. Gary

    What an absolute utter Loser!! poor lass needs to get back to the bascket weaving classes and have some purpose in life! her poor dad……. bet he gets fed up collecting her from the happy club!

  116. Iain mhor

    @Socrates MacSporran 9:36 am

    “However, having a majority of pro-independence Scottish MPs is not a mandate for Independence”
    Though I may understand the gist behind most of the post (?) That the mandate currently held by MP’s at Westminster is specifically to hold a referendum and not to ‘to declare for independence’, nor do they represent all of the Scottish enfranchised electorate.
    However, If I’m being ‘picky, a majority of MP’s (should they hold an Independence mandate, or any other) is the only acceptable means in a *cough ‘representative democracy under a sovereign parliament’ such as the UK.

    Their rules, don’t shoot the messenger. A referendum is well down the list of acceptable means and is always an advisory plebiscite (Under the UK) because (you may have guessed) if it wasn’t, the people and not Parliament would be sovereign and the result is not ‘representative democracy’ (Democracy via elected representatives) In short, a binding referendum invalidates the entire rationale & edifice of ‘UK Parliamentary Democracy™’.

    They really, really don’t like binding referendums. By losing in 2014, we were spared the ‘ahh but it’s advisory, you see, we’ll accept it, but here’s how that is going to work out for you…” Like Brexit, advisory, so they get to fanny about advising about the form it should take, or maybe ‘let’s just forget the whole thing’.
    They do like their Parliamentary system though – the only legitimate representation and so very many ways to legitimise ignoring the electorate.

  117. Heart of Galloway


    Your insults betray you.

    I undertsnd pefectly well the concept of sovereignty, or in layman’s terms, power and where it resides.

    “I denounced Sturgeon’s abdication of sovereignty and wholesale surrender.” Well good for you.

    “We need decisive sovereignty. You offer tepid alphabet soup.”

    What does that actually mean? In fact what relevance does any of what you actually write have to brutal political reality?

    You have never laid out how some kind of Scottish constitutional backstop would be achieved, and if achieved, honoured.

    If through the courts, would that be the CoS first, then the Supreme Court, then the ECJ?

    Leaving the EU still has not happened. How would that have played out in the minds of the ECJ judges when the UK remains the member state?

    Or the fact that the EU Ref question never asked whether people believed Scotland should remain in the EU. Rather, the question concerned the fate of the existing member state, the UK.

    It may well be that the Scottish petitioners (this all theoretical because you should be explaining this) would be able to overcome those arguments by invoking the UN charter regarding the rights of nations to self determination and Scotland’s equal kingdom status in the Treaty of Union.

    But I don’t know. And neither, I suspect, do you.

    Should such a case be lost – there would a legal impediment to independence.

    If won, it would mean a legal decision declaring that Scotland, in the words of Ian Blackford, should not be dragged out of the EU against our will.

    Then the Boris Johnson junta would be entrusted with complying with that decision. “Okay Scotland, off you pop, with your resources and riches. Thanks for Trident and shut the door behind you.”

    Well, good luck with that.

    Placing the power over Scotland’s future in the hands of three courts – potentially – is a dangerous road to go down.

    Rather, it the power of the people through their expressed sovereign will which must always prevail.

    I was among the 200,000 in Edinburgh on Saturday. It was wonderful uplifting day – adjectives which could never be ascribed to your comments.

    Their faith and their trust in Nicola Sturgeon and the ScotGov to deliver on IndyRef is conditional – in exactly the same way as the Court of Session’s “Sword of Damocles” hanging over BoJo on the EU extension letter is conditional.

    For that trust is conditional on those (very different) pledges being fulfilled.

    I continue to trust. You don’t Breeks and probably never have.

    Oh and by the way, I value my European citizenship beyond words. So I need lectures from nobody on how best to preserve it in perpetuity.

    I am deeply angry about the prospect of losing it. But I am prepared, on trust, to accept it being temporarily in cold storage until it re-emerges in its true form after we fight and win IndyRef2.

    And its physical manifestation? A joint Scottish and EU passport.

  118. Liz g

    Blair Patterson @ 12.11
    That’s not only a nasty thing to say Blair it’s also ignorant.
    And for the avoidance of doubt…it’s a million miles from my opinions about Trans People.

    There’s been what we now call Trans People for as long as there’s been people.
    They are a part of the – Diversity – of Nature and should be embraced as such,they are not freaks of Nature they are human beings just as you and I are.
    They are entitled to live their life as they see fit and not be judged for it!
    They should have all the rights and protections that everyone else has, and, are entitled to advocate to their parliament to enhance their right’s too.

    It’s the Parliament that has to balance the rights of everyone and at this point in time Holyrood for what ever reason is not doing that…..
    That’s the Issue……
    The only issue….
    Holyrood are about to make a stupid and in some situations a dangerous Law.
    All that women and, it has to be said, the Rev are doing is pointing out ” the flaws in this Law ” and there are many of them.

    Also FWIW I personally think that Trans People are being used and used badly in this..
    For whatever reasons this is some form of Social Engineering…
    But Freak??? No,,,That word has no place in the conversation..

  119. Robert J. Sutherland

    Footsoldier @ 09:19,

    My view also. Most ordinary folk will want to get back to a quiet life post-Brexit whatever the consequences, which in any event I expect will be insidiously accumulative (=austerity-plus) rather than immediately obvious, so if we wait until (say) the autumn of 2020 as is oft mooted, we will have thrown away the opportunity not just of a lifetime but of the century (at least). And Ian Blackford will truly be shown up (as per Raab’s recent stinging jibe) as being “all mouth and no trousers”.

    There has to be timely action from the SNP on its prime raison d’etre come what may and not this other footling displacement activity while the opportunity exists. Otherwise there will in any case, by default, be another twenty years of imprisonment and a new generation and – I dare say – a new party that will have to take up the struggle.

  120. Robert J. Sutherland

    Iain mhor @ 14:54,

    I would say the complete reverse. If recent events have shown us anything, given the vast effusions of Leaver politicians about “the will of the people”, it is that there is no longer any such thing as an “advisory” referendum, even in England. All those mountains of fine words can’t simply be swallowed up as if they had never been uttered.

    And in any case, within the constitutional writ of Scotland, there can be no “advisory” referendum. The will of the people is paramount.

  121. Shug

    Time for a new Labour party

  122. Harry Shanks

    £150 a week to write a column for a national newspaper?

    A) She works incredibly cheap
    B) It’s *still* more than her opinion is worth

  123. Robert J. Sutherland

    Heart of Galloway @ 14:55,

    What you said there is a fair summary of how things stand. What Breeks particularly misses IMO is the lack of definitive support for independence from the people of Scotland. If the polls were at 90% then even the most fearful Wishartite would be raring to go, and the UKGov would find it impossible to refuse a referendum. Except in those circumstances we would be in a “Lithuanian situation” anyway. (If only. But we’re not.)

    The crux of the whole thing is how UKGov will react to a new formal S.30 request. The current SG strategy appears to be to embarrass it into conceding a contest – a question of democratic legitimacy – and maybe even tempting it to go for broke while there’s still some hope of winning. It seems that Ruth Davidson is being lined up to lead the Union side, so maybe that’s indeed how it will unfold.

    But if a resurgent EngNat regime in London, uplifted by a “successful” Brexit and an ensuing majority – however thin – in WM from a UKGE, decides to bluff it out, I don’t see that there is an obvious alternative other than to challenge them constitutionally in the courts, given a far different result in Scotland.

    Or do we just give up, despite significant electoral gains for the SNP, and grind on towards 2021 in the hope we can somehow manage to sustain enough energy to keep the dream of IR2 alive? When the last desperate hope of the BritNat rump in Scotland is to destroy a pro-indy majority, even if they can’t themselves form a credible government? (Which is actually ideal from their point of view. They can continually snipe from the sidelines in a kind of mitigation hell. As Kipling said, “power without responsibility – the prerogative of the harlot”.)

    Maybe there is some more effective way of activating people to the omnipresent danger to their precious rights, but it’s hard to see a better opportunity ever being available than the current one presented by Brexit.

    And what many people seem increasingly to need is less theoretical legalistic manoevering of any kind and leadership that is rather more visceral and inspiring.

  124. Gary45%

    Bon Dias Troops.
    Totally agree with you on that one. But it has to be a 100% “old school party”
    DipityDug panto seasons coming up, Glesca Pivs panto horse taken care of.
    Intermittent Internet here, so struggling to get the drift of the SNP stance on the gender issue. When back home in God’s Country, I will contact the party, 10000% behind Joanna Cherry on the issue. Membership on the line here.
    Bit harsh on Blair Patterson imho. He is entitled to his democratic opinion.
    Call me ignorant, right back at you with?? I am to scared to say anything incase the ladies toilet seat gets pished on .

  125. Bobp

    Iain mhor 2.54pm Absolutely, I’d rather trust a majority of mp’s with an independence mandate as a route to indy, than trust a referendum that could be rigged in countless ways.

  126. Robert J. Sutherland

    Bobp @ 17:01,

    You are joking. Dream on. Even an nigh-on imposssible “full house” of SNP MPs can be just as easily ignored at WM as it always has been. The BBC (eg.) can continue to ignore it and give the FibDems the illusion of greater importance.

    All that an anticipated SNP gain at a UKGE does is put heart in people that we are getting somewhere. A springboard to what follows, as Ian Blackford (I think) recently said.

    If the number of SNP votes were greater than 50%, maybe something more could be made of that, but that’s extremely unlikely in such a multifaceted contest with full UK media emphasis. And even then, we would only likely get goalpost-moving with the dead and feckless being invoked on the Union side.

    Nope, SNP gains can – and damn well ought to – be used as valuable evidence of a shift in popular opinion, and that is a very useful lever for what follows. But no more.

    As to casually dismissing IR2 on the basis of unspecific conspiracy theorising, ‘sakes! You (and we) have to do way better than that.

  127. Golfnut

    @Iain Mhor

    Sorry, no magic beans, there are however 3 elephants in the room as an alternative.

    The individual and collective sovereignty of tge People of Scotland.

    Scots Constitunional law

    The Crown, without doubt the weakest link in the Establishments armour.

    Just a bit sabre rattling so far using the above

    2 very important events, both of which will happen.

    700 th Anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath arrives in 2020.

    The EU Withdrawal Bill has not yet been enacted.

    The judgements of both the Inner House of the COS and three SP have confirmed that neither Parliament nor the Crown are above the law..

  128. vlad (not that one)

    O/T As I like to say, do step back and try to look at the forest; I am giving up on the trees.

    Internationally, our world is still troubled by the last remaining long-standing conflicts, essentially inherited from the 19th Century imperial era – as in Ukraine, Kurdistan, Iraq, Myanmar, Yemen, Palestine, to name a few.
    (Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union are now, mercifully, history, though Serbia still seems to claim Kosovo.)

    For the future I am rather concerned about the likely fall-out from the inevitable demise of US global supremacy. Empires in death throes are dangerous.
    And global warming should surely be the overriding concern at this time.

    Now, as for Scotland, why on earth should we remain stuck to the rump of a failed empire?

  129. Bobp

    Robert J Sutherland 5.16pm..Good luck with that then!.

  130. Liz g

    Gary 45% @ 4.57pm
    Don’t you worry yer heid Gary,Women have lived with pished on toilet seats for most of their lives in their own homes and haven’t murdered anybody over it yet…
    So say yer piece and get ready for incoming 🙂

  131. Colin Alexander

    Liz g

    I’m suggesting we should have legal answers before the proposed indyref.

    Surely, one of the lessons learned from 2014, is as you pointed out: the UK refused to even countenance what comes next following a YES vote.

    What the UK Govt did do was produce their infamous Annexe A, if I remember correctly? Which asserted that Scotland didn’t even exist, so indy-Scotland would be a breakaway new state from UK. That rUK would be the continuing state, so rUK would own all the assets and debts of the UK.

    Others said that is complete tripe.

    These matters should be settled in Scots Law before an indyref, so people know what “independence” really means instead of relying on what the UK state tells us what it means.

  132. Shug

    Let brexit happen and let the farmers and fishermen see what’s ahead with westminster and let them all see what’s about to happen in Ireland then go for I dyref2
    Painful I know but at the end of the day they voted for it

  133. Lenny Hartley

    Watching Stenhousmuir v Watford on Alba, waterford just scored and one of their supporters has got a Yes flag, cant believe the BBC have it showed twice! Thats more airtime than the hundred of thousands of yes flags in aedinburgh last week got 🙂

  134. Kenny J

    Heart of Galloway @ 9.02 AM
    The FM’s actual stance – correct in my view – is that IR2 has to be be beyond legal dispute, IOW internationally recognised. Otherwise the British state will CUT us down like new mown hay.
    Socrates MacSporran @ 9.36 AM
    This is what the FM is after, but, to get this, she requires a Section 30 order, this will tie Westminster to Agreeing to the outcome of that referendum.

    In light of these two comments, could you perhaps give us an idea of what you think Westminster might do if there was a ref. WITHOUT a Sec. 30 agreement. Thanks.

  135. Liz g

    Colin Alexander @ 7.12
    You’ve got that backwards Colin.
    Scotland was and is going to be an Independent country and intends to negotiate assets and liabilities.
    It’s the status of the rest of the UK brand that’s the issue.
    When there’s nae Union what the rest of them do is indeed up for discussion as Scotland has a claim to the brand but Scotland’s way forward is clear.
    It’s not Scotland that was extinguished that was propaganda floated to test if it would fly. ( pre internet it might have)
    It’s the UK brand that’s at risk of being extinguished and any clarification in a court about that is not Scotland’s responsibility….
    Brand new Country or Reverting back to pre 1707 status as far as Scotland is concerned is really only about the best outcome from the assets and liabilities negotiation.
    Either one can work and it would,I think, be a mistake to wed Scotland to one of the other!
    I sure as shit don’t care and I’ve not yet met anyone who dose…

  136. Brian Doonthetoon

    Having followed the discussions on WOS for ages, as to the way forward to independence, I have come round to the old mandate of a majority of MPs elected to Westminster, as defined by Maggie Thatcher in the 80s.

    However, I’m persuaded by the argument put forward on WOS over the past months that the SNP achieving 50%+1 of the votes in any GE would make it watertight.

    Thus, the SNP going into a GE with a manifesto promising that if a majority of pro-indy MPs are returned to Westminster, with over 50% of the vote, then independence negotiations can commence, would satisfy me.

    The need for a S30 is negated – it’s no longer Westminster’s right to say “Now is not the time”.

  137. Heart of Galloway


    Kenny J@8.11

    RJS: “Or do we just give up, despite significant electoral gains for the SNP, and grind on towards 2021”?

    No, we don’t. The importance of the Referendums (Scotland) Bill being speedily progressed though Hoyrood at this moment will assume immense significance when it is given Queen’s consent.

    With an unassailable democratic mandate already in its back pocket the ScotGov would have the added power to hold IndyRef2 at a time of its choosing.

    This further democratic bulwark would then be used as compelling evidence in a formal invitation to Johnson to agree the sanctioning a S30 order.

    Despite the cast-iron mandate thus presented, no sentient human being really believes BoJo would consent.

    This would leave the ScotGov with two choices.

    1} Cede the argument to the “imperial parliament” and hope to win in 2021 (a very dubious strategy because the UK Gov would use the interlude to financially and strategically cut the SNP Gov to pieces) and thereafter seek “permission” – because that’s what it would be given its earlier acquiescence – for another indyref, or

    2) Stand its ground and prepare for IR2, while seeking international backing for Scotland’s unimpeachable right to decide its own future.

    And yes, RJS, this could well involve the courts, starting with the CoS. As I said this is risky, but Scotland would be left with no other recourse.

    The victory of JCQCMP in having BoJo’s proroguing illegal and in O’Neill persuading the Inner Housed to hold over the Brexit extension letter case until October 21 suggests a well madde case could find favour.

    I don’t see the need to go anywhere else after that because a legal thumbs up from the highest court in the land will have been secured.

    Critically, I believe the ScotGov has good reason to believe the EU would look favourably on such an outcome as meeting the criteria for holding an indyerf which would be “beyond legal dispute”.

    I cannot stress highly enough that the ScotGov WILL NOT back off this. AS stated previously, when NS makes the final play she will go all in.

    I and many others I know are already campaigning – in work places, within the family, in pubs and street corners.

    We have already passed the point of no return. The SNP has learned the bitter lessons of 2017.

  138. Andy Law

    Give it a rest Stu, she’s moved off that particular stage for now and folk do know these things. Treat her as a non-combatant.

  139. Liz g

    Andy Law @ 10.46
    On the BBC ain’t off the stage Andy.
    And the political quango she’s walked into isn’t either,that’s just out of the lime light…

    So till she’s out of the picture and of, of the scene she’s fair game… and Mibbi not even then….

    Tony Blair and Gordon Brown E.G. are you suggesting that their war crimes are spoken of now?

  140. SilverDarling

    Dugdale is now the director of a think tank promoting trust in politics.

    “The John Smith Centre promotes a positive vision for representative politics.”

    The utter hypocrisy of this woman who has lied and continues to lie and yet gets away with it. The Rev has just demonstrated her most recent lies. How can that be allowed to pass?

    Her entire career has been one of opportunism, gained by blagging her way to the top, albeit of a small muddy hill, but still an important position in SLab. That she is being given a platform of any kind after the way she has behaved is outrageous. If I never hear her breathy wee girly voice spouting disingenuous Unionist pish ever again, it will be too soon.

  141. ian stewart

    Is it not time to leave this Lassie alone ? Could be seen as bullying jist sayin like.

  142. Liz g

    Ian Stewart @ 12.30
    Just as soon as She leaves the electorate alone I’d be fine with that….
    She has a choice Ian does she no?
    As soon as She leaves the Political sphere and stays away yes she should be left to get on with it…
    But she hasn’t done that … has she?
    So no Ian… For as long as she CHOOSES to be a part of shaping public policy,she HAS to be scrutinised.
    Especially since she’s such a proven LIAR…. ( see above )

  143. Kenny J

    Heart of Galloway says:
    11 October, 2019 at 9:26 pm


    Kenny J@8.11

    I sure hope your scenario is correct. I think you can forget Act 1, Mr. Johnson and Dominic will simply rubber-ear it.
    It’s got to be the second course, the thing I can not understand is why there has been no action these past three years. I asked Keith Brown some time ago, before Mr. Johnson came along, about Sec.30 and he said the Conservatives would accede to it when asked. No chance now. So the Sec. 30 question is still unasked.
    And the Sec.30 appears to me to merely be a promise from UK Gov.not to invade us in the event of a Yes vote. Which is what I thought you were implying.
    Scotland WILL have no other choice.
    Campaigning. Was out this morning.

  144. Iain More

    Cant be trusted with formulating any kind of Public Policy let alone Legislating any of it. A non combatant she certainly isn’t.

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