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How to lie without even trying

Posted on November 29, 2014 by

This is a headline from Thursday’s Guardian:


You all know how it works by now, right?

Headlines are what control the news agenda. We’ve previously detailed at length some of the studies that show the precipitious drop in readership between the title and the end of a newspaper article, and we’re not going to go over it again. So if you get the headline wrong, whether by accident or design, it’s a serious matter, and the Guardian’s headline is a big steaming pile of it.

Because the Scottish Parliament has ALWAYS controlled that £14bn of income tax and welfare money. It’s just that it used to be called the block grant. It was money collected by HMRC, given to the Treasury, and then sent to Scotland as a lump sum. Post-Smith Commission (assuming the recommendations are implemented in full), it’ll still be collected by HMRC, it’ll still be given to the Treasury, and it’ll still passed to Scotland as a lump sum. It’ll just have a different badge on it.

(Paragraph 76 of the commission’s report says that “Given that Income Tax will still apply on a UK-wide basis, albeit with different rates and thresholds in Scotland, it will continue to be collected and administered by HMRC.”, rather than being handed over to Revenue Scotland.)

The Guardian’s headline isn’t a lie per se, unlike the Daily Record’s far cruder spin. Scotland WILL control that money, just as it does now. But the words give the unmistakeable impression that Holyrood is being given responsibility for a large amount of extra spending, which it simply isn’t. Under the Smith proposals, expressly and by design, Holyrood’s budget will be exactly what it is now.

If this is what Scots can expect from one of the less dishonest papers on the newsstands, they should probably steel themselves between now and Burns Night for an avalanche of deliberate misinformation from the rest of the media the likes of which has rarely been seen on these islands.

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      He marched Scotland up to the top of the hill (of beans)… and marched it down again | My Blog

    228 to “How to lie without even trying”

    1. Swami Backverandah says:

      Good analyses of the Smith recommendations:
      Same Spin, Different Cycle,

      Grauniad not one of the less dishonest papers. In fact, masking their true pro-Establishment intent by deceptively appearing to be less so, makes them, in my view, even more malign.

    2. benarmine says:

      I’m getting sicker of this by the day. How can these journalists live in this world of lies, and apparently succeed in taking huge parts of the population with them? It turns my stomach having to read it.

    3. Capella says:

      Despicable distortion of the facts. I posted on a previous thread the Financial Times at the same game:
      “The government in Holyrood spends around £35bn annually, but only a small fraction is raised north of the border, largely through property levies. Most funding is provided by a block grant from the Treasury in London…This is a radical step towards giving Scotland a level of fiscal autonomy normally seen in a fully independent state.”

    4. Grouse Beater says:

      I dread being in a friend’s house when one of his guests praises the ‘extra’ powers and expresses a hope his fellow Scot will shut up now, and I have to ask that guest to check the integrity of his host’s guests before spouting Unionist drivel. It’s sure to happen leaving me with the decision to bite my lip and not cause dissent in another’s home, or take the idiot to task there and then and risk losing a friend in my host.

    5. De Valera says:

      The media blitz continues, and will do so until May 2015.
      Lies about the Smith Commission running concurrently at the moment with stories of falling revenue/extraction difficulties with North Sea oil, because some of us are still tempted to vote for those horrible Nats you see.

    6. Indyracer2014 says:

      Its almost as if the Smith Commission report was written in a deliberate way to allow such obfuscation.

    7. Capella says:

      This is a propaganda war. Just repeat the lie over and over and turn up the volume till it’s DEAFENING.
      However, this site is doing an excellent job of pointing out the facts. Once the lie is exposed, people never believe the propaganda again. I think it was Paul Mason, formerly BBC now working for Channel 4, who pointed out that the BBC was on a war footing never seen since Iraq. Looks like all the press, even the “quality” papers are on the same page.
      We need to keep on pointing out the lies, patiently.

    8. Proud Cybernat says:

      Don’t these unreconstructed eejits know taht there’s a relatively new fangled thingmy called the Internet where this utter rubbish can be dissected, filleted and trashed in seconds?

      C’mon ‘The National’–let’s see your spurs. Let’s see what you’re made of and debunk this utter tripe.

    9. Lesley-Anne says:

      Surely not all journalists who work on these *ahem* joke newspapers are out and out LIARS. Working on the assumption that this statement is true then this leads me to conclude one other simple fact … those journalists who are NOT out and out LIARS can only be out and out incompetent, stupid ignoramuses who are thicker than two short planks … if that is indeed possible. 😛 (Apologies to short planks every where for this analogy that compares them to incompetent, stupid ignoramuses. 😉 )

    10. BrianW says:

      Looks like all the media are frantically trying to rub extra hard to polish the big smelly smith commission joby that’s been left as a grateful message on the desk of the Scottish masses.

      It’s funny eh, you get caught lying to your pals and/or family etc then you’re an arse hole and they are weary of believing you in the future.

      Mad how the media get away with it on a daily basis and never get challenged on their work at all (well they do but nothing changes in the way you’d hope it would).

      Seems that some folk don’t mind being lied to day in day out, again and again and again and again..

    11. heedtracker says:

      And then its followed through with this reprobate

      Good box off, apparently its box office that really drives Libby Carrell and chums, the harder they attack Scottish democracy the more bums on seats is the English progressive liberal phoney consensus. So what if a few irritating north Britons don’t like it. Englands a very proud country, they’re proud of themselves and they do not like be made to feel like whatever Scotland running Scotland actually makes proud England feel like, diminished? Watch Farage and co feed off English nationalism and proud English but fury at the world.

    12. manandboy says:

      BROWN ON TV and the rest – WHAT DOES IT MEAN

      I would suggest that the ongoing Labour/Unionist campaign is twofold: one to counter post Indy anti-Labour sentiment in the run-up to GE15;
      and two, to engage in a longer term war against the Independence movement in an attempt to destroy it completely.
      In this war, I anticipate some very dark politics indeed as the Unionists pull on the jack boots.

      Brown’s appearance tells us where McTernan is and what he’s doing – working the dummy, but much more importantly, he and his team, plus the Unionist establishment in London of Tory-Labour-Libdem, are FULLY ENGAGED IN A MEDIA/POLITICS WAR AGAINST THE INDEPENDENCE CAMPAIGN IN SCOTLAND.
      It may last for up to FOUR YEARS.

      Smith is over – if the proposals get through Westminster, I’ll be very surprised.
      Rats don’t smile.

      We are also reminded that the No Campaign team have not disbanded.
      The tactics will be exactly the same.
      The strategy of fear smear lies and bribery will be re-applied.
      The Labour/BBC/STV/Press coalition continues.
      There will be no let up over the Festive period.

      It is going to be a long 5 months until May 9.

      On the plus side:-
      The National is out there and getting better.
      SNP membership is heading for 100,000.
      The other Alliance parties are also getting stronger

      Many No voters now know they have been well and truly conned. Smith and Cameron have just f***ed us over – again, which only strengthens our resolve.

      Westminster could have gone about this in a truly democratic and fair way but they chose to be nasty barstewards instead – actually they’re just being themselves. Elected criminals.

      TV LICENCE CAMPAIGN MUST BE RENEWED. The very short term pain of losing whatever pleasure there is in watching live TV is NOTHING compared to the pain the BBC feels in losing£145 a year every year, and particularly if some of the £145 is spent on Indymedia.
      I’ve given up on TV completely and don’t suffer one bit as a result. In fact, I’m so much better off without it. My blood pressure is down and I don’t get upset every day through watching TV News.

      For perspective – there must be a hundred countries in the world where politics is conducted mainly through violence.
      If England leaves the EU, Scotland will have no protection from aUnionist Westminster unless we stay in the EU.
      Think about it.

      Give up TV – get active – get Independence.

      Finally, a question: Does anyone know where Dave keeps his £4billion pound fleet of 600 armoured personnel carriers?

    13. Jimbo says:

      @ benamine

      “How can these journalists live in this world of lies…”

      It would seem to me that UK’s mainstream media living in a world of lies is, to them, now a state of normality.

    14. Ian Kirkwood says:

      Well, let’s hope the National does its job and does it well!

    15. jimnarlene says:

      Why not let the “Londoncentric” media carry on, with the Scottish bashing; then London can have a referendum to get rid of the “subsidy junkies” up north.

      Well London thinks its a city state, so why not.

    16. arthur thomson says:

      Yes it is sickening how the media lie and a lot of people swallow it. Fortunately we have this medium to turn to for solace. We just have to keep going for the sake of our children and our grandchildren. Most of the people who oppose us believe that poverty, war, weapons for the mass destruction of ordinary people, foodbanks, fracking the environment etc etc are normal because the telly tells them so. We just need to keep repeating that we oppose such things and our numbers will steadily grow. When people say we should ‘get over it’ we should just say ‘this is forever’. That will make them think.

    17. galamcennalath says:

      What else do we expect, guys?

      The Union had a near death experience in mid September. For a few days they thought it was all over. The MSM switched back to the same old Lab-Con-Lib-UKIP London centric drivel. Then the swelling of the Indy parties and the huge poll swings to the SNP gave them a hard kick in the ribs.

      We are behaving like we won, the Unionists act like the losers they are. IndyPanic2 has set in!

      They are all back on a ‘defend the Union at all costs’ agenda.

      Every brain user in both the Indy and Unionist camps knows the Vow was a con, and now they all know that Smith is a con. However, the Unionists clearly believe there are a lot of gullible people both North and South of the Border. All this blatant propaganda is aimed at them. There will probably be fewer in Scotland that there were!

    18. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @manandboy –

      ‘Give up TV – get active – get Independence.’

      I like that. A lot.

    19. maureen says:

      I don’t understand how the very folk who couldn’t understand how a currency union would work with the back of England setting the interest rates or how we might have simply pegged or currency to sterling can see how devolving bits of the tax and having different bands is going to work.

      Basically they’re willing to believe anything if it’s said by folk who have duped them for decades.

    20. thomaspotter2014 says:

      Is what’s been delivered(?)from the Myth Commission and how it’s being labelled in their manipulative media any great surprise?
      I think not.
      It was always going to be like this.
      So don’t be getting too riled by it.
      The months running up to GE 2015 will be time enough to pull these ‘ new powers’ to shreds and show them for the- I’ll give you a tenner and you give me two fivers-kind of piss take that they really are,shouldn’t be too difficult.
      Focus on removing the cancer of Slab from Scotland is the only game in town and all efforts must be made to achieve this end.
      That will be the most positive end we can realise and will lead to the next objective.
      Patience is required even though at times you could seriously crush a grape!
      Gathering our brows like gathering storm ,nursing our wrath to keep it warm?
      On a much more optimistic vibe:
      The National is a breath of fresh air in the equation and this shouldn’t be underestimated for the welcome addition it is!
      All is not lost and the real game is now on.

    21. msean says:

      Been here before with the press based in the south,they don’t actually know how things work in Scotland,even though they should read up before spouting forth. Doesn’t stop them showering misinformed opinion about,unless of course,it is being done deliberately. Surely not?

    22. Capella says:

      RT news video on the Edinburgh rally “Storm is Coming”.
      There are alternative news sites!

    23. Tubes says:

      Yet again, complete misunderstanding. “We’ve give you some “power” now, so just stop it and vote Labour”

    24. msean says:

      And this about the making permanent of the Scottish Parliament,no one mentioned this except Mr Brown in his long BBC speech pre indyref,no one as far as I know. All the parties already accepted it was permanent years ago,so I guess it already IS in legislation.

      Why was it even mentioned,was it another threat? Trying to frighten Scots by threatening to take something away that they already ‘gave’ us? Just some extra padding to fill in the extra indyref busting airtime? Do you mean they would try and take it away?

    25. Valerie says:

      It’s a zero sum game. That’s the simple message we need to try and get over, and one which the SNP will eventually have to communicate, because anything less is dishonest and misleading.

      We have seen the Joe Public sound bites saying how good it is etc.

      Eg. Even the anti fracking folk were saying great we are getting control. No, hundreds of licences have been granted already by WM, and energy remains a reserved matter. The proposal is to allow any future licences to be considered by the SG,which is useless given the scale of what is already granted, AND given Smith has industry connections, it might even be pulled.

      I agree that this is just another skirmish in the propaganda war.

    26. fred blogger says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      “cheated not defeated” and “we are the change.”

    27. Macart says:

      Its what they do and yes they sleep like babies at night.

      They don’t have a conscience, they have a deadline and an editorial line to follow. They don’t represent us and they don’t speak for us.

      Forget them and concentrate on building our own media, our own means of reaching out to people.

    28. caz-m says:

      Their was an analogy made from someone in the Herald letters page, where the writer said the Smith Commission reminded him of when he was a wee boy, he found three ginger bottles and proudly took them home to show the family his new extra income.

      But right in the middle of him basking in all his glory, his did shouted out to him,

      “Well done son, that means I’ll only have to give you half your pocket money this week”

      Scotland finds itself in the exact same situation as the boy who found the three ginger bottles.

    29. panda paws says:

      The MSM lie – colour me surprised!

      Andy Wightman has tweeted that Matt Quovtrup says he wrote a paper for the Foreign and Commonwealth paper called “How to rig a referendum”.

      Any chance Wings could try another Freedom of Information request because that’s a paper I’d like to read (as well as the National!)

    30. 1971Thistle says:

      “If this is what Scots can expect from one of the less dishonest papers on the newsstands”

      It’s been some time since the Guardian has been honest on the issue of Scottish politics. Severin Carrell is a notorious offender

    31. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes Rev, exactly. Smith had to work within the constraint that neither Scotland nor the UK would be better or worse off in £££ as a result – at the time of implementation.

      That is indeed only “fair”, though there are some riders like if we’re contributing more or less than our fair share, that would have to be considered at least, if for instance, Devo-Max had been the result. Except that Devo-Max would have made it far easier – what’s ours is ours, what’s theirs is theirs.

      And thereafter it wouldn’t be what we have, but how we use it!

    32. caz-m says:

      BBC Scotland don’t seem to be getting this, “give with one hand, take away with the other” thing.

      I think we need to pay Pacific Quay another wee visit some time soon, with a few banners reminding them of the deal Scotland actually did get from the Smith Commission.

      They are starting to ramp the bias up to Referendum levels once again.

      They are needing slapped down. I haven’t visited the place since I stopped paying their License in September. Another visit is well over due.

    33. Chic McGregor says:

      Said it before and no doubt will say it again, it is a case of:


    34. Bob Mack says:

      I feel as if I am living in a state where all the media is subject to government control like N. Korea. Imagine having to tune into Russian State News station to get the low down on what is happening within your own country. It would be funny if not for the fact B.B.C. operates such services for other nations. Shall we organise an illicit listening session when they get round to taking R.T. off our screens? We could have our own Lord HAW HAW from among our numder.

    35. Roberto Esquierdo says:

      If the National is for independence WHY does it not expose the Daily Record for lying?. The Record are already in deep shit for the wording of the vow and IPSO have appointed a committee to look into the Record breaking the editors code of conduct on several counts. However IPSO have not revealed who are on the committee and i would not hold my breath for Murray Foote being held accountable.

    36. hetty says:

      The devil is in the detail as always, devil being the operative word.

    37. Lesley-Anne says:

      They can try and fool us by telling us that all this s***e in the Fudge Report is *ahem* new in the same way as they try and get us to look at squirrels but WE know different … squirrels are ARMED and DANGEROUS! 😛

      I say it is time to let loose the Squirrel army on the unionists! 😉

    38. Tam Jardine says:


      Seconded. The silage they produce is getting worse now labour is falling apart. The staff at BBC Pacific Quay are swimming in it.

      From the off, the weak as watered down piss proposals were getting the full beam treatment. You can tell when the high-heid-yins are involved and the whole tank turns round to face the people of Scotland. It’s like a switch is flicked.

      The establishment has been in control for so long, it’s like Scotland has had to learn to walk all over again but I see nothing but positive signs from the national movement. I would be interested to hear what the good Professor Robertson makes of the current situation – and where he thinks we can go from here to bring this sucker down.

    39. AndyC says:

      What?…..the armoured personnel carriers/water cannons that were bought to quell the undoubted riots that would’ve ensued down sarf if we’d got independence?
      The consequences of the Union no longer being in control of the oil revenues was really what it was all about, wasn’t it?
      The McCrone report is still proof of that.
      Rest assured, violence would have been deployed by the British state if it had really looked like they were in danger of losing control. They allowed the OO march in Edinburgh days before the vote just to give us a taster….

    40. manandboy says:

      With the ‘Yes to Devo Max’ No voters realising they have been deceived,
      the will of the majority of the Scottish people will soon set firm into
      an unbreakable desire for Independence.

      There will then be an irresistible force in Scotland
      facing a bankrupt and panic-stricken object in Westminster.

      That’ll be interesting.

      Don’t delay, sign on, join up –

    41. heedtracker says:

      TeamGB propagandists do alright too. This is from the Daily Heil that’s got it in for the BBC, which is a bit weird considering they all peddle the same UKOK saving grot. Still, nearly 700 hundred grand a year for what are in essence 2 civil service jobs is pretty scary and one hell of incentive to do what your told.

      “Strategy chief James Purnell, who earns £295,000, and finance director Anne Bulford, on £395,000, were accused of ‘scare tactics’ as they threatened to slash the programming budget to save more money.

      Miss Bulford said ‘tough choices’ would have to be made over which services are cut as further belt-tightening in pay, staff numbers and the property portfolio is impossible.”

      The bloater that runs BBC in Scotland gets 200 hundred grand a year plus expenses and there’s barely 1600 BBC staff in Scotland. Mid sized factory manager would love that kind of mullah but they’d really have to earn it.

    42. Stoker says:

      @ Roberto (7.14pm).

      Some weeks ago i was attempting to make a serious complaint to the Press Complaints Commission regarding ‘The Vow’ only to discover the PCC had been replaced by IPSO.

      I spent a few hours reading up on the newly formed ‘IPSO’ then decided it was a waste of time and decided the best course of action was to continue not buying these rags and encourage others to do likewise.

      Just take a look at some of the people associated with IPSO.

      The only course of action worth taking against the printed media is to not contribute financially to them and don’t participate on their web sites and keep encouraging others to do the same.

      Demonise them at every opportunity – they’ll supply an endless stream of material to assist you in their own downfall.

      Roberto, how do you know that IPSO have appointed “a committee” to look into the Record?

    43. Roll_On_2014 says:

      Aye Stu

      At least you can always tell when a unionist politician is lying… they move their lips. But these barstools are doing it without even moving their lips.


      Last week I wrote a piece for the Conversation. Time for the UK to give Scotland what it voted for: more control over energy matters:

      Hugely disappointing that the Smith Commission has failed to deliver on the ‘Vow’ in the field of energy and across a number of different policy areas.

      The whole package of powers to be devolved to Scotland resembles a cheap Christmas cracker; pull it if you must but don’t ask for your money back!

      A link to another article that I have written on this:

    45. Stoker says:

      AndyC says:
      “Rest assured, violence would have been deployed by the British state if it had really looked like they were in danger of losing control. They allowed the OO march in Edinburgh days before the vote just to give us a taster….”

      As far as i’m aware the decision to allow that sectarian filth to soil the streets of our capital city was a joint one between Police Scotland and Edinburgh councillors.

      And as far as i know that’s what it comes down to wherever this filth parades – permission rests with Police Scotland and the local council.

    46. manandboy says:

      I read so much guff today it fair knocked me down. Then I found Lorraine McIntosh singing ‘Freedom Come All Ye’ and it gave me wings and lifted me out of the gloom. And I felt transformed. – Dick Gaughan – Luke Kelly – Lorraine McIntosh

    47. heedtracker says:

      OT but this vid via Graun, shows at least one of the many reasons why teamGB UKOK propaganda is used to such great effect, why UK keeps a very tight grip of their Scotland territories, and why their Trident nuke strike sub pens are NOT 20 miles from London. Thanks again proud Scot buts.

    48. I was at the Rally outside Holyrood today. Great day, great songs, great speeches. One speech sticks out for me more than anything though,it was given by a disabled woman and what an inspiration she was. I would love to se her debate with any of the unionist politicians.

      A strange thing also happened. A woman in her late 50’s walked through the crowd wearing a real bright union jack t-shirt under her open jacket, with union jack badges on her coat. I thought she is trying to cause trouble. I am pleased to say the crowd ignored this troublemaker, and the day went off well.

      There were police on duty but stayed in the background on the whole.

      Again though so proud to have been there and to be associated with a great people.

      I also met four 6 wingers in a nice wee pub near Holyrood. Great day, walking 10feet tall from being in the company of thousands of great people.

    49. Alan McHarg says:

      Another Smith…another sinking ship. The HMS Union has just put a bloody great hole in its hull just below the waterline and there are not enough lies to plug the hole. Ayes to the life boats and naws to the pumps. Tick Tock..

    50. fred blogger says:

      it’s a great song whoever sings it, except if i do. 🙂
      but it’s dick’s version for me.

    51. manandboy says:

      So it came to pass that the big country said to the wee country only a tenth it’s size ‘Yir too wee, too stupit and too poor to go it alone. Ye cannae dae it cos yir f****in’ useless an yir always short so we hiv tae support ye and gie ye money a’ the time. Even then, yir always whingin’ an’ greetin’ cos yuv no got enough. Am F***in’ fed up wi yis’

      So the wee country said to the big country ‘Well we’ll jist go then if that’s how ye feel. We’ll hae a vote an’ then we’ll jist go an be on oor ane withoot you.’

      But the big country, who had been steelin’ fae the wee country said ‘Oh fu*k. Now what. If they leave, we’ll be in deep shit ‘cos we’ve nae money left since the bankers took it a’. An we’ve got massive fu**in’ debts that we’ll never pey aff withoot that money we’re steelin’ fae the wee country.’

      So the big country pulled oot a’ the stops tae trick the wee country intae stayin’. They telt them a load a lies and the stupit fu**ers in the wee country believed them.

      Ye unerston’? That’s how it came aboot, jist in case emdy asks ye, awright? Noo f*ck off.

    52. ClanDonald says:

      Has Henry McLeish made a statement yet? He must be so pleased that his decision to vote no for devo max has worked out so well. Congratulations in getting home rule for Scotland, Henry. You must be well chuffed.

    53. Stoker says:

      Scottish actor Ken Stott has criticised the BBC for its coverage of the referendum.

      He said the BBC was a mouthpiece for the establishment.

      He went on to say they (BBC) were pretty disgusting throughout the referendum campaign saying that in the majority of cases the last word was given to a No campaigner.

      In the recent interview for the Radio Times he went on to have a right good go at the BBC and criticised them on issues regarding the Scottish referendum and over use of special effects and said that their fixation with reality television was nauseating.

      Source: various.

      Well said Ken.

    54. Croompenstein says:

      @manandboy –

      Dick willnae be bettered singing our national anthem but I did like Luke Kelly singing it and also Lorraine, but this one also stood the hairs on my neck up…

    55. balgayboy says:

      @ manandboy.

      Got it in one, hard truth as it is, we have to do whatever is required to get rid of the shit that are holding our country.

    56. Lenny Hartley says:

      o/t new crowdfunder for a book on how the BBC Bias won the referendum.

      Draft of first chapter

    57. Croompenstein says:

      @heedtracker – Wow that has just set me off, I wish they would show that in cinemas to show the proud scot and thick as mince scot buts who live near this shit what will happen if we allow the imperialists to poison our nation. I wonder what the song is on the film as it is perfect accompaniment

    58. Thomas Valentine says:

      Perhaps we should consider this is a lie being told to the English. Such as to create the impression that their government is doing everything to placate the Scottish population but we are the ones being dishonest and unreasonable. Propaganda to justify future abuses.

    59. manandboy says:

      @ Croompenstein – Yes, Awesome and very moving. I hadn’t seen that before. South Africa – they know.

    60. fred blogger says:

      Thomas Valentine
      yes definitely, it is a lie being told to
      don’t fear though, many see right through it.

    61. manandboy says:

      I don’t know when we’re gonna get there, but I know for certain we’re on the right road and I am not turning back.

    62. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If the Smiff Commission recommendations were an episode of ‘Bullseye’, they’d be this one:

    63. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

      this was the highlight of the year for me and this should be our future national anthem.

      We should get Pumeza back again to sing Freedom come all ye when we finally get Independence.

    64. Stoker says:

      From RT:

      Arms firms dine at Tower of London days after ‘sea of poppies’ closed.

    65. Thistle says:

      Below is link to the video from the Skype live stream conversation we did with George Monbiot who writes for the Guardian. It’s a cracker.

    66. CRAIGthePICT says:

      Well these people (Graun etc) are shits and they most likely will never change. On the other hand we have several avenues of new media fairer/indie supporting media outlets coming through.

      One of these is ‘independence live’ and I’m sure many of you have tuned in to a few of their live broadcasts. I have certainly enjoyed a few events that otherwise I would not have seen.

      They are after feedback about how to go forward, and I get the impression they are in a real quandary about how best to do this.

      I reckon the regulars here would have some great advice for them and I sure they would appreciate it. They have made the request here:

    67. Big Del says:

      Hello friends,first post since the 1-0 aggregate score in September:

      @Capella says @ 5:27- reference RT today.

      I watched this also today,as I work over seas this is my chosen channel.Large amount of air time was awarded to us. Would never darken my tv with world service scum.
      First time to thank everyone for not throwing in the towel.
      Keep believing, keep your dignity, keep up the good work.
      Thanks Rev.

    68. manandboy says:

      More than any other Prime Minister in the history of the UK, the face of David Cameron is the face of Evil.

      Why? Because daily, he sets his face against those who need his help the most and decides in favour of those who need his help the least.

      This is the ONLY measure we need use in judging this man.

      Sooner or later, the people of these islands have to decide whether to continue with the well dressed, well educated millionaires who are determined to rob the poor, or to switch to leaders who have chosen to help the poor not because they’re poor but because they’re one of us.

      Paradoxically, it is the poor who will decide our future prosperity.

      Commit to Independence for then we all have a chance.

    69. Lesley-Anne says:

      Sorry for O/T here but anyone who watched FMQ’s on Thursday will remember Jackie Baillie having a go, or rather TRYING and FAILING to have a go, at Nicola Sturgeon over the alleged lack of hospital beds for children with mental health issues.

      Well I wonder how she feels now after the tweet from the A.C.C. of Devon And Cornwall police concerning the total lack of a hospital bed in the whole of the U.K. for a 16 year old who has spent 48 hours in police cells after being sectioned by the local authority.

      I wonder if oor Jackie will be using this instance as yet another futile attack on the First Minister on Thursday concerning the lack of special beds units in Scotland. If she does can someone please have a wee word in her shell-like and inform her that Devon and Cornwall is NOT in Scotland and therefore does NOT come under Scottish Government responsibility!

    70. kininvie says:

      Evening all…

      I was at the Yes rally in Edinburgh this afternoon, and there was a lot of very angry rhetoric from the stage (mostly over-amplified)

      I came away reflecting that I hadn’t learnt anything new and that the tone of the speakers was extraordinarily aggressive. It was barely recognisable as the Yes movement I worked for.

      I came home and found this:

      I don’t agree with all of this, but I think it points to a clear danger. Interested to know what others think.

    71. manandboy says:

      Herald on Sunday – this is what we want!

      Well done Richard Walker. Now you’re talkin’!

      Powers over BBC Scotland scrapped by the Westminster cabinet!

      Give us more !

    72. Marcia says:

      Interesting front page on the Sunday Express in regard to Willie McRae one of the best orators the SNP had;

      I won’t be buying it though.

    73. Lesley-Anne says:

      With a front page like that Marcia (Sunday Express) the absolute STENCH emanating from Westminster appears to grows stronger and stronger each and every day!

    74. manandboy says:

      @ kininvie

      I’ve read your linked material Kininvie and frankly it is seriously misjudged. It owes more to anxiety and imagination than anything I can think of.
      You would be as well saying that Angela Merkel is the reincarnation of Ghengis Khan’s mother.
      I have no wish to offend, but this stuff is just nonsense and the product of a vivid imagination.

    75. manandboy says:

      The more dishonesty Westminster perpetrates, the more it has to cover up, the more difficult it becomes, the more they are found out to be liars and deceivers and unfit to govern.

      Just ask the Washington Post re Richard Nixon and Watergate.

    76. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

      That would make a lot of sense. I have always wondered what was contained in “the file”.

      Just shows how long the abuse had been going on. There were a lot of strange guys in politics and in the BBC in the seventies and eighties. Some of them may still be in the HOL.

      I just do not believe anything will come to light of these matters. Too many important people are involved. Westminster will bury it.

    77. manandboy says:

      Cameron and Nixon go together, like – two bad apples.

    78. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @kininvie (10.19) –

      When you say that you ‘came home and found this’, what do you mean exactly? That someone sent it to you as a link? Just asking…

      Anyway, you asked for feedback. I’ve just read the whole thing: didn’t bother taking any notes; wouldn’t want to read it again; don’t believe for one second that the author voted ‘Yes’; the author, whoever s/he do be, is far too keen to conflate Yes/SNP with ‘fundamentalism’.

      IMO, it’s unionist propaganda, but high-quality, and deserving of respect.

      Thanks for linking to it. I’d like to know what you think of it Kininvie.

    79. Clydebuilt says:

      Whilst I’m VERY PLEASED that we have the National. I’ts not aimed at “Weak NO’s” IT’S AIMED AT the 45%. So it’s going to be ineffectual in getting the message out.
      This situatuion won’t change untill the front page strap line is changed.

      The BBC have been doing their best to put people of buying it. So far I’ve heard Laura Maxwell and Bill Whiteford at it. Maxwell was particularily aggressive, talking to a rep. from “The Drum” she came up with 4 negative comments.

    80. Stoker says:

      @ Kininvie.

      Agree with Ian’s point’s – apart from the ‘respect’ part.

      Couldn’t get Karen Dunbar out my head as i read it:

      “I smell sh!te”

    81. Croompenstein says:

      Always good for a laugh…. Iain Gray will be FM

    82. Lenny Hartley says:


      Thanks for posting that front page of the Sunday Express.

      There never has been a fatal accident inquiry into the death of Willie Mcrae, Nicola Sturgeon should order one asap. Its a national disgrace that 7 years after the election of an SNP Government that this has not been ordered before. Willie Mcrae stood for the leadership of the SNP, you would think they would afford his memory a little more respect.

      It has been obvious from April 1985 that Willie did not take his own life, how could somebody shoot themselves in the head and then throw the weapon 60 feet away?

      Anyway, its interesting that this is coming out now, maybe somebody within the Establishment is willing to spill the beans on the corrupt,perverted Westminster bubble.

    83. Lesley-Anne says:

      Sorry for going O/T here but apparently wee Georgie Porgie is to announce an extra £2bn for the health service across the UK next year.

      Now I may just be the village idiot around these parts but is this seriously meaning some EXTRA 3200 Million cash coming to the SCOTTISH N.H.S. or are we just seeing the good old BBC using the usual “whole of the U.K.” as BBC speak for ENGLAND?

    84. manandboy says:

      The government can pay for it because of the “growing” economy and its “tight control” of finances, he will say.

      The pledge comes after NHS bosses warned of a need for extra funds to keep the NHS going and maintain standards of care.

      Groups representing health trusts and analysts had said £2bn extra was needed to cope with the immediate, unprecedented pressure on NHS budgets.

      A press release with a purpose in mind. Usual PR exercise, in this case to deflect from the bad publicity over the Smith Commission proposals being interfered with by the cabinet. You get the picture.

    85. SqueuedPerspextive says:


      I agree. To be inclusive should be the goal.

      Can ‘The National’ find the balance to keep the readership of the 45%, but explore the issues of the 55%? I think this is where they need to go – don’t exclude readers, include balanced argument.

      Inform readers, not only of the political arguments, but the academic and civic organisation debate on issues. That can only stifle the voice of the Browns of the world and identify what Scotland needs to do (and have/lack in the way of powers) to actually address issues.

      Even as I advocate this I can already feel the tedium creeping in. It’s hard to report on this level of detail and keep the reader engaged. Could that challenge inspire the new reporters ?

      I hope so.

    86. crazycat says:

      @ kininvie

      Did you read the comments on that piece you linked to? There is one posted a 4.50 which demolishes it rather effectively 😉

    87. Dr Jim says:

      Just read your link,interesting,BUT,it’s just full of jealousy,there are some people who like being losers who struggle and complain, it’s what they do,it takes guts to be a winner and quite often those people back off and start thinking of excuses as to why they dont want to win anymore, it’s too scary, and too many other people take their thunder away,we’ve all heard it , NAW, IT’S GOAT OOT O HAND NOO, IT’S TOO BIG, whinge whinge whinge. When you have your opponent by the soft parts, better make sure you put them down or they get up and do it to you, and that’s exactly what the SNP are doing…We might not get another chance….

    88. ClanDonald says:

      Kininvie: I agree with the others: that article is completely implausible.

      Anyone who has come to support independence through an understanding of how the TeamGB system currently works is motivated by injustice, and as we all know injustice is the greatest motivator of all.

      It doesn’t go away easily and it certainly doesn’t convert to defining Nicola’s event at the Hydro as the “imperial phase.” within a matter of weeks.

      It reminds me of the attention seeking U-turn by the publicity hungry writer and ex-Marxist, now far right Uber Tory, Ewan Morrison who publicly declared for yes then a few days before the indyref suddenly declared that the yes movement were all extremist fanatics and we should all vote no.

    89. cearc says:

      Lenny Hartley,

      I remember a few years back the SG said something about re-opening it.

      I would imagine that there was no paperwork to re-open.

    90. Papadox says:

      In the event of an attempt to overthrow a government why do you think the next move that is made after securing the head of state and the government is the securing and control of the state broadcaster and its communication systems. Close all other broadcasters and close down msm and internet. They then control the information the peasants are allowed to receive 100%.

      The EBC is not controlled out the barrel of a gun but by patronage and the states cheque book, Who selects the board of governors at the head of EBC? Totally corrupt and guess what they get us to pay for this crap.

      The EBC IS A SHAM AND A ESTABLISHMENT TOOL OF COTROL. The last thing we want is that corrupt regime working on behalf of a corrupt system of government, like what we have at the moment. NONE ARE SO BLIND AS THOSE WHO DO NOT WANT TO SEE. Unless you are too stupid, or wee, or feert.

    91. caz-m says:

      Now look what we’ve started.

      “Tory shires join call for more cash and powers for England’s regions.”

      “Council leaders demand devolution and an end to austerity: ‘After Scottish reform pledge, it’s our turn now.’

      Why have these regions not been complaining about London getting more per head than them for years.

      It’s only when they see Scotland getting something that they open their mouth.

    92. SqueuedPerspextive says:

      I am sorry, but my hind brain made me hear this, so I am subjecting it on you. The hope being that it will be cathartic and I can stop hearing it…

      “The BlueCon and the RedCon had a race
      Having both worked so hard to create all this mess
      They both wanted to just lose and stuff their face
      Blaming all their problems on those of another race
      But smart old blue he took the UKIP way”

    93. Flower of Scotland says:

      I knew Willie MacRae,s brother. He was our Doctor. I remember talking about this with Morag at the Edinburgh night out but was told unreservedly that there was no conspiracy theory! What do you think Morag?

    94. Devorgilla says:

      It’s extraordinary that the police decided Macrae committed suicide. He was on his way to his highland holiday cottage and was about 30 mins away from arriving, having left Glasgow about 3hrs before, at 6.30pm on the evening of 5th April, 1985. I.e. it would still have been light when the incident leading to his death occurred, but light would be fading. It is claimed he was being shadowed by Special Branch. There was a layby some yards away from where his car went off the road. Tyre marks were found showing the car had left the road there and headed off down a slope. The police theory is that he was depressed because he had a drink driving charge coming up and feared he might go to prison. He was 62, and was a partner in his own law firm. Why on earth would a successful lawyer three years off retirement top himself over a drink driving charge? But even so, why would he top himself whilst driving his car on his way to his highland cottage for the Easter weekend? Wouldn’t you at least pull over and put on the hand brake? Why not wait til you’d got to your cottage, got a nice roaring fire going, and poured yourself a large whiskey in your favourite armchair? For the police case to be plausible Macrae must have suddenly taken a notion for topping himself half an hour before the end of his journey, pulled over into the layby, and shot himself in the head without even having bothered to apply the handbrake, so that the car slid down the slope and ended up some distance away from the road with the keys still in the ignition. During the course of which the car hurtling down the slope (rough ground) it jostled the driver side door open, and the gun fell out, into a burn, as the car came to a halt. The gun sat in the water all night and wasn’t immediately discovered for nearly 36 hours, which was apparently enough for it to lose any finger prints Willie might have put on it. The car wasn’t discovered until 10am next morning.

    95. Andy A says:

      for Lesley-Anne I have just 2 words….’Barnett consequentials’!
      If NHS England gets £2Bn of new money then Scotland should get around £200 Million. Sounds like a big voter bribe to me given the state of the deficit.

    96. Dr Jim says:

      Patrick Harvie does’nt agree with everything the SNP does, but for the common good he joins forces, remember during the referendum we faced Labour ,Tories ,lib Dems ,BNP,National Front,the Orange Lodge,The Rangers supporters lunatic fringe,the BBC and on and on,remember how you felt when we lost? who gives a monkeys whether we have a 12000 rally or a 100.000 rally as long as it leads to winning, i’m sure the bruised egos will get over it,and come out of their corners still whingeing about some principle or other…I’m going to my bed now,that tired me out…

    97. Alistair Grapevine says:

      kininvie says,
      Articulate troll,

    98. Devorgilla says:

      Winnie Ewing looked into it about 1990 but couldn’t get access to all the papers. Her verdict was that on the available evidence she couldn’t be certain it was suicide. Some files have been released recently under FOI and are online.

    99. manandboy says:

      After tomorrow’s headlines in the Sunday Herald re the BBC and devolved powers to Holyrood, something has to give.

      After all, there’s only so many drips a rock can take before it splits. My guess is that the Scottish Electorate is very close to the end of its tether.

      Not that Ken McQuarrie and John ‘the bully’ Boothman would know that. How could anyone expect the management of BBC Scotland to have their finger on the pulse of both the Labour Party and Scotland at the same time? The distance between the two is so great as to be unbridgeable.

      I knew a bully once. I kicked him in the balls and he peed himself. That’s what bullies are made of.
      They’re full of pish. And BBC Scotland is a latrine.

    100. yesindyref2 says:

      Kininvie + Ian B
      Fake. L8Z. No, probably genuine but volatile. I remembered I’d commented critically on an analysis he’d done over the three referenda, and his replies to me and others are “Thanks for this – an interesting response”.

      I’ve also checked through other articles, and I’d say he’s taken on board some of the Labour style terminology, but still probably did decide to move to YES, and having predicted a big win (as I did), is still disappointed, and looking for things to criticise – as did quite a few of us.

      I was at the Hydro with son and we thought it was a hoot, but I can also see how others could regard it as a bit over the top. I was unaligned all my life and joined releuctanly the SNP to give support to future Indy, so I can understand how a Party hat doesn’t fit very well with all its ra-ra-ra.

    101. Lollysmum says:

      It was alsways going to happen.The fact is that Scotland has had the temerity to tie it to getting rid of austerity. Until that point most people had accepted austerity as inevitable due to banks being seen as too big to fail.

      Regions in England were offered devolution several years ago but rejected it on the grounds that it was just another layer of bureaucracy to pay for.

      Scotland has just woken everyone up.

    102. Devorgilla says:

      Macrae: I’m not saying there is a conspiracy theory. Just that I find it a very bizarre suicide to not wait until you’d arrived at your cottage. I also find it unbelievable that a self-employed successful lawyer three years off retirement would top himself over a drink-driving charge.

      But the family didn’t want to pursue it apparently.

    103. No no no...Yes says:

      Happy St. Andrews day to everyone.

      I look forward to the state broadcaster’s cultural contribution to our nation’s patron saint.

    104. yesindyref2 says:

      Just to add to that, the blog was started 11th September, so it could be a honeytrap, especially considering that ref analysis article was reblogged by David Torrance, and there seemed to be indy supporters discouraged by it from the replies (that’s why I posted). On the other hand that almost proves it genuine but misguided, as otherwise that would be covered up! Probably just went to Uni together.

    105. Michael McCabe says:

      @ Croompenstein 9:35pm you commented on headteachers link further up the thread. The song from that link is. Promised Land by Hannah Miller

    106. Lesley-Anne says:

      Andy A says:

      for Lesley-Anne I have just 2 words….’Barnett consequentials’!
      If NHS England gets £2Bn of new money then Scotland should get around £200 Million. Sounds like a big voter bribe to me given the state of the deficit.

      OOPS! 😀

      My post about the £2 Billion BRIBE has, let’s nonchalantly call it, a wee typo. I didn’t notice it at the time Andy. I had intended to type £200 Million but as you can clearly see I *ahem* typed 3200 Million. Oh dear. 😉

      I do agree with your sentiment though a BRIBE it most certainly is!

      Whatever we think about this BRIBE though we must all NEVER forget that we are all too wee, too poor and too stupid to figure out what to do with all this *cough* extra dosh coming our way AFTER next May’s General Election. 😛

    107. Hobbit says:

      To pick up a point made above, ‘the Nation’ /should/ be engaging with the 55 percent. Demonising them is not the way to go.

      What was clear from one of the surveys of the match between voter behaviour last election and vote in the referendum, is that 95 percent of the people who voted Tory in the last election (15% of the poll), voted no; as did three-quarters or so of the people born outwith Scotland. Allowing for overlap between the two groups, that could be half the 55 percent. Why is’t there any thought being given as to how to connect with this part of the electorate?

      Also, a number of people who voted SNP last time voted no in the referendum – meaning that their original vote for the SNP was about the SNP’s good governance, but *not* the SNP’s core value (Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland have a similar problem). There’s more work to be done.

    108. caz-m says:


      The whole of the UK is going Devo-Mad at the moment. The regions want more power, Scotland wants more power, Wales wants the same as Scotland, Northern Ireland wants more power, London wants more power, The English Parliament wants more power, throw in the EU Referendum and it’s one almighty mess.

      That was us that started all that, am fair proud.

      And Gordon Brown has the cheek to tell the Scottish Government to stop going on about the constitution.

      Everybody is going on about the constitution Gordon. You should join in, it’s a right hoot.

    109. Morag says:

      I’ve often wondered about the Willie Macrae thing, and mainly about what the motive might have been if he really was murdered. It’s been portrayed sometimes as if he was murdered because of his SNP position but that’s ridiculous, he wasn’t that senior and there have been far better candidates for elimination in that area (up to and including Alex Salmond).

      Even the anti-nuclear activities motive, though more plausible, never really convinced me. I remember having a conversation after seeing 3000 Trees (both of them) at the Fringe, wondering if it was a nuclear-industry-related motive, if the dangerous information had actually come out yet.

      The thing is, for the state to murder a citizen is an enormously big deal. The stakes would have to be absolutely gigantic. I struggle to see how even nuclear safety issues at Dounreay really fit the bill.

      This child rape and murder in high places is a different matter. It’s plausible, depending on just how high the places were. But it’s also entirely out of the blue, and it’s the Express, goddamnit. Sorry, but having some experience of their journalism it’s going to take a lot more than one of their headlines to persuade me.

      I think the prospect of finding out for sure is a slim one. The scene of the car crash was irretrievably contaminated and fouled up by policemen and ambulance crews whose main priority was getting someone they believed was a road traffic accident victim out of the crashed car and in to hospital. Nobody realised he’d been shot until later, and I think the car had actually been removed from the scene by then.

      It wasn’t treated as a crime scene and there’s no guarantee any of the objects found was in its original position by the time the search was made. I think it’s hopeless.

      It’s still hellish suspicious though and I always said, show me a specific motive that’s a big enough deal to explain state murder and maybe I’ll believe it.

      But the Express? Gimme a break.

    110. Capella says:

      Happy St Andrews Day everybody. (Which is also my birthday and Nana’s .)
      Don’t forget to put out your garlic to protect yourselves from the wolves which are circling.

    111. Alistair Grapevine says:

      No no no…Yes says:
      30 November, 2014 at 12:28 am
      Happy St. Andrews day to everyone.

      I’ll echo that.
      Pleasure to meet you and Mrs no no no…Yes
      In the yes bar last week.

    112. kininvie says:

      @ian and others:

      1) I found it interesting that the Rev had bothered to comment at length on the piece I linked to. He doesn’t normally do that to obvious trolls.

      2) I do think there’s a danger in what the article says – that in our disappointment we are too ready to dismiss the 55% as ‘not being ready’. If you dismiss your opponents as stupid, rather than set out to convert them while respecting their views, you make no progress.

      3) I take what the piece says about triumphalism with a pinch of salt. But there is a clear danger – relevant to 2015. We may think we have it made, and that the unionist parties will vanish in a puff of smoke. They won’t. I genuinely thought that Yes might win because the No vote wouldn’t turn out in numbers. But they did. The machine worked. It can work again in 2015 – and we need to be rather more aware.

      4) I found the suggested parallel with the Covenanters interesting. That was another – possibly the most recent – occasion on which Scotland was carried away on a mass movement of popular enthusiasm. And it started to go sour when subscription to the Covenant was made compulsory.

      I have to say I’ve noticed a change of tone on Wings too. A lot of comments are angry and dismissive where they used to be thoughtful and funny. Rage against the machine is not the answer – it’s playing right into the establishment’s hands. I don’t know what the answer is, but I do know that if we lose the sense of humour and fun that was characteristic of Yes, we alienate people rather than attract them.

    113. Chic McGregor says:

      @Stoker, Roberto

      Ipso facto being a quite appropriate Latin phrase in that the result of anything set up by the Establishment will exonerate the Establishment of all wrong doing.

      Little public schoolboy joke there methinks.

    114. Capella says:

      re Willie Macrae – having read “Britain’s Secret War” by Andrew Murray Scott and Ian Macleay – it seems pretty certain that it was the nuclear industry connection that signed his death warrant. How he managed to shoot himself TWICE through the back of the head then throw the gun 60 ft away into a burn is a mystery.

    115. Hobbit says:

      @Kininvie – exactly. You’ve made my point better than I could.

    116. Devorgilla says:

      Morag, agree. But I also wonder about the motive for suicide, and what a bizarre kind of suicide it is to just decide to top yourself whilst driving en route to your Highland holiday cottage before even arriving there. And as for going off the road. Did he forget to put on the handbrake after pulling over into the layby to shoot himself in the head? Did he mean for the car to slide off the road after he’d shot himself by not applying it so as to avoid detection? He had no firearms certificate. It was a .22 Smith and Weston – looked like a toy gun. The bullet was so small that’s why they didn’t at first realise he was shot. And why he lived for 36 hours after being shot. He bought two bottles of whisky before leaving Glasgow, a half bottle of something cheap, and a full bottle of Glenmorangie. The half bottle had been 3/4 sloshed but the Glenmorangie was unopened. By the time the police realised he had been shot in the head the blood alcohol would have gone. He was a big fella. Their theory was he was driving and drinking at the same time, was drunk, got depressed, decided to top himself all of a sudden, and was so drunk he’d forgot to put on the handbrake. Plausible, I suppose. When firearms are concerned, it’s often spur of the moment. But over a drink driving charge?

    117. Morag says:

      Kininvie, thanks for pointing out that Stu had commented on that article as I hadn’t read far enough.

      Chortling now.

    118. Croompenstein says:

      @Morag –

      The thing is, for the state to murder a citizen is an enormously big deal. The stakes would have to be absolutely gigantic

      Are you for real??

    119. manandboy says:

      I’m told St Andrew the Apostle is Scotland’s patron saint as well as of Greece, Romania, Russia and Ukraine, and this is his feast day.

      So do have a happy St Andrew’s day everyone including our European neighbours in Greece, Romania, Russia and Ukraine.

    120. Lesley-Anne says:

      caz-m says:

      And Gordon Brown has the cheek to tell the Scottish Government to stop going on about the constitution.

      Everybody is going on about the constitution Gordon. You should join in, it’s a right hoot.

      I’ve always found it more than a wee bit funny Caz that Broon the Loon and all his compatriots in Westminster, past and present, keep going on abut the “constitution.” There is just one teeny weeny itsy bitsy little problem with this “constitution thingy as far as I can see … it does NOT exist, at least not in any WRITTEN form as far as I can see. Therefore when Broon the Loon, or anyone else in his RAINBOW Tory party, goes on about the “constitution” I can only think that this means anything and everything THEY want it to because there is absolutely NO way anyone can prove what they say is in the constitution or not.

      I think this is the ultimate “pull the wool over the electorates eyes” game. The longer Broon and co go on about the “constitution” the more likely it is that the poor unedumacated electorate, like our good selves, will eventually believe that it ACTUALLY exists and the longer Broon and co can go on pulling the wool over everyone’s eyes. The end result of this con trick to end all con tricks is that the “constitution” NEVER gets written!

    121. Capella says:

      I certainly will. Goodnight everyone. Garlic clove in hand, just in case!

    122. Morag says:

      Capella, virtually none of what you say is certain. The gun was fired twice, but he had only one gunshot wound. Bear in mind the cops and the ambulance people were all over that area for hours before anyone had any idea it wasn’t a simple accident. The car had been taken away before that was known, and the first try at going back to find the spot ended up at the wrong place!

      That gun could have been kicked anywhere, inadvertently, by anyone. Just about nothing is certain.

      There has also been no FAI. I know from Lockerbie how many wild rumours get about, which turn out to be absolute nonsense when the actual evidence gets an airing. We don’t have a solid base of known evidence to go on in this one. It’s all rumour, speculation and hearsay, and people sexing up their ideas because they’ve a book to sell.

      The motive has generally been believed to have been Dounreay, but to me that never really seemed big enough. The sheer enormity of a decision to eliminate an innocent citizen to cover something up implies that something extraordinary is being concealed.

      So far so good. I just don’t believe a word the Express says, on principle.

    123. Alistair Grapevine says:

      kininvie says:
      1/ the Rev is an Anomaly,
      2-3/ our local Yes group is certainly not sitting on our laurels ( after defeat? )with our finger up our bums, we are working the streets to ensure a victory for Scotland in the GE 2015,
      4/ where is JLT when you need him.

    124. Morag says:

      The thing is, for the state to murder a citizen is an enormously big deal. The stakes would have to be absolutely gigantic

      Are you for real??

      It must be something in the air, you’re the second person today to start going on about JFK from a standing start. Get back to me when you’ve proved that (a) the state actually did that and (b) the motive wasn’t something absolutely gigantic and ( c) Britain works like the USA.

    125. Capella says:

      OK but the Karen Silkwood case also suggests that nuclear power is imporant enough for state agencies to want to silence objectors. And that is precisely what Willie Macrae was working on when he died. Suspicious at the very least?
      How many people die of gunshot wounds?

    126. Croompenstein says:

      Get back to me when you’ve proved that (a) the state actually did that and (b) the motive wasn’t something absolutely gigantic and ( c) Britain works like the USA.

      Fuck me you are for real!!

    127. SqueuedPerspextive says:

      O/T but not that much – do we need to think bigger?

      Scotland is not alone in thinking that our democracy is broken.

      Democracy has been usurped by the elite and their ideas sold by the media that represents them.

      We the People, Not We the Corporations

    128. Morag says:

      Capella, yes, I know, I never said I discounted it entirely. I’ve just never really bought the nuclear motive as being big enough for what’s said to have been done.

      Apart from the Meryl Streep film I’m not that familiar with the Silkwood thing – was that actually proved, or is it just another allegation that has gained wide credence? There’s another one as well, a lady in England whose death is linked to anti-nuclear activities, can’t remember the name. (And as I said already, this isn’t the USA.)

      That’s why I was having the conversation after 3000 Trees. Wondering what it could possibly have been that he had discovered, to set the security services to murder him. And whether it was something that had already come out by now.

      I just find it a lot easier to believe that the paedophilia disclosures might have led to a violent cover-up, than any misconduct over nuclear waste. But then again, it’s the bloody Express so it’s probably another load of utter bollocks.

    129. Morag says:

      Yup, I’m for real. I like compelling evidence before I believe any wild conspiracy theory, not just a bunch of gullible idiots oohing and aaahing over a titillating idea.

      And unlike some people I know that mammalian bodies are soft and squishy and easily contort into all sorts of asymmetrical positions and very few people sit bolt upright in car seats staring dead ahead, especially after hearing gunshots coming from behind.

    130. Capella says:

      It was Hilda Murrell

    131. Morag says:

      Thanks, that’s the name, I’d forgotten.

      It’s all very nebulous, and people drag David Kelly into the same category, and nothing can be proved in any of the cases. Bad handling, bad PR, arrogant officialdom can simulate a cover-up quite easily.

    132. Morag says:

      You wouldn’t think I’d spent half the evening, earlier, outlining a conspiracy theory that would curl your hair, against some understandable scepticism – except I did just that. The thing is, I think you need to clear a very high bar before you can really go down that route and its not often that enough evidence is available to do that.

      I’d prefer to be dragged kicking and screaming to a conclusion I really didn’t want to reach, than to fall open-mouthed for every wild allegation of dark deeds and mayhem, though.

    133. Croompenstein says:

      not just a bunch of gullible idiots

      See..there you go again and then you wonder why people have a go at you! I respect your input on this forum but please don’t call me a gullible idiot.

    134. Morag says:

      If the cap fits, wear it. Jumping in with the hoary old JFK thing when we’re discussing McRae, as if it was in some way relevant, isn’t exactly demonstrating a keenly honed aptitude for critical thinking you know.

    135. Morag says:

      What do you want me to do? Derail the whole thing into a discussion of how the “magic bullet” really did travel in a straight line and the diagrams the conspiracy theorists rely on are entirely misleading?

      It’s lazy debate. The assassination of JFK is by no means generally accepted as a state-sponsored killing to cover up some nefarious misdeed, so linking to the Zapruder film with a “gotcha” comment as if it proves the British security forces are trigger-happy assassins ready to gun down anyone at the slightest pretext really doesn’t fly.

    136. Croompenstein says:

      very few people sit bolt upright in car seats staring dead ahead, especially after hearing gunshots coming from behind

      Well there is a theory for that.. 🙂

    137. Morag says:

      Sure. Any time. I repeat what I say, your introduction of JFK is lazy debate. There is no consensus or proof he was assassinated by the state, and he certainly wasn’t assassinated by the state we’re currently discussing, so a gotcha link to that film is simply a nonsense.

    138. Morag says:

      And then again, even if he had been, that wouldn’t negate the point that a state-sponsored assassination is something that needs an enormous reason to justify it, and a bit of a nuclear leak isn’t really all that big a deal.

    139. yesindyref2 says:

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying that many of the 55% weren’t ready, as long as it’s not done in any sort of patronising way.

      I posted a lot on such as the Herald, but apart from that I didn’t campaign “in the flesh” for YES, it’s not my style. I tend to empathise with people, and that’s how I was able to talk to a lot of NO voters without any confrontation.

      One thing I found with many NO voters was that they were actually in favour of the idea of Independence for Scotland, but had reasons – and many were valid reasons – for voting NO. Often risks and uncertainties – such as mortgage rates, currency and yes, even continued membership of the EU. They weren’t ready, or convinced – almost but not quite the same thing.

      Anyway, I too commented on the blog, partly because, like the other article (79,97 and 14), I was a bit alarmed at the replies saying “great article” apparently from yessers. I suspect that while the article may be genuine itself (not sure), the likes of David Torrance has pals (perhaps!!!) who are joining in, delighted with themselves.

    140. yesindyref2 says:

      Willie MacRae
      The chances of Special Branch having a surveillance operation mounted on him are normal. Special Branch certainly used to do those operations, as MI5/6 didn’t have the manpower in those days, and were missing many of the legal powers neccessary for effective surveillance.

      The chances of Special Branch itself having murdered him are 0.000000000000%.

    141. Croompenstein says:

      OMFG… night night don’t let the bed bugs bite 😀

    142. Morag says:

      Willie MacRae
      The chances of Special Branch having a surveillance operation mounted on him are normal. Special Branch certainly used to do those operations, as MI5/6 didn’t have the manpower in those days, and were missing many of the legal powers neccessary for effective surveillance.

      The chances of Special Branch itself having murdered him are 0.000000000000%.

      I’m inclined to go along with that, except that the circumstances really are bloody peculiar. There’s no guarantee another agency couldn’t have stepped in at the crucial moment.

      I keep an open mind, and I think it will have to stay that way because I don’t think the evidence even exists to settle the matter. The current interest is really just because the Express has provided a new and better suggestion as to a motive. And we all know how much faith we can put in the Express.

    143. Morag says:

      And you know what, the day it’s decided that everyone here has to agree without question that JFK was murdered by US security forces, and if they don’t they can simply be sneered at with a roll of the eyes – well maybe someone should notify Stuart of the decision.

    144. DrewSword says:


      try Awa Whigs Awa as our war song
      Aw this luv and peace business wullnae wurk we need iron fisted response tae the shite mongers o Westminster and the MSM

    145. john king says:

      msean says
      “Do you mean they would try and take it away?”

      One word msean

    146. bunter says:

      Nice article in Observer today by Kevin McKenna suggesting that ”The Vow” existed only in the mind of the Daily Rancid editor. Ouch!

    147. Nana Smith says:


      Happy birthday!!! Hope you have a good one.

      How do you know today is mine also?

    148. Marian says:

      It’s the end of democracy when you have politicians and a media that routinely tells lies rather than report facts.

      Couple that with increasingly intolerant politics and an increasingly oppressive state security system and the result is that Britain is no different from any other totalitarian state.

    149. Macart says:

      @Nana and Capella

      Happy birthday you two.

      All the very best. 🙂

    150. heedtracker says:

      Andrew Marr says he’s doing a thing on UKOK media going after “ordinary members” of public on his BBC Sunday politics bleh. Whats the chance of this one proud Scot but using Daily Heil, Rancid Record neo fascism from our noble media, as British journalists and editors attack people who they disagree with in their papers, eg

    151. Nana Smith says:

      Thanks Macart.

      I had hoped to celebrate this day in an independent Scotland.

    152. Macart says:

      Merely on pause Nana. 🙂

    153. ScottieDog says:

      Yep Guardian shows it’s true colours. Just ask Nafeez Ahmed

    154. heedtracker says:

      I must be hearing things:D

      Another teamGB day at unbiased BBC and lovely tory boy grovel fest from UKOK Marr show. Osborne tells Marr he’s going to build new roads from Cornwall to up North. You can’t take a left or a right down here in England without hitting a shiny new dual carriageway or an 8 lane motorway. £1.5tn national debt, £100 bn deficit and its all teamGB success.

    155. Roberto Esquierdo says:

      Stoker 7.15P.m. I know about the committee because I have an e-mail from IPSO telling me so . I went to great lengths to seek legal advice on how to word my complaint to IPSO and was also advised to inform them them that I had sought legal advice. My initial complaint was followed up two weeks later with another complaint that is when I received the E-mail. I notified the Rev that I was complaining. My phone number is 01290 426064 contact me and I will e-mail the IPSO response.

    156. Scotspine says:

      Whats up North? Birmingham?

    157. Brian says:

      Lenny Hartley : thanks for the link to the first chapter. Informative, well written, balanced and honest. A great read, though I was tearing my hair out by the end.

    158. muttley79 says:


      To be fair, many people do think that JFK was murdered by high ranking American security officers, along with their pals in organised crime (Johny Roselli etc), and anti-Castro Cubans. It is a fact that William Harvey was friends with Roselli. They think this for good reasons as well. To say there is no evidence for thinking this is absolutely ludicrous. To dismiss all the evidence which suggests this is myopic in the extreme.

    159. Famous15 says:

      I have not seen the article but I am guessing the Express has raised the Macrae case and suggests a motive for silencing him as him having some knowledge of paedophilia at the heart of British Government.

      This is the Express and they have set two hares running. The first is Indy supporters getting into a froth of conspiracy theories and indeed Croopmpenstein showing ordinary folks that we are wackos,justified or not. The second is the more obvious Beaverbrook mentality of discrediting anything with a whiff of civilised social democracy including the suspects hinted at.

      The security services have no powers of arrest and certainly no licence to kill. If they wish an arrest be made or a house broken into to get information they use Special Branch and these are constables in local police forces specially vetted for keeping secrets.That is not to say that off file ops by compliant security services of other nations are not used in more onerous cases.

      The clumsy mistakes by the Metropolitan Police “branches” in recent years are in some ways a reassurance that black ops do not take place routinely or regularly.If only MI5/MI6 were as competent as James Bond. The reality is grubby and pathetic and like the British Government over reliant on “public schools” and Oxbridge for its recruits.Not so nice but dim!

    160. caz-m says:

      Latest opinion poll on what Scotland really wants.

      “63% of people in Scotland support the full devolution of both taxes and welfare, the ICM poll has shown.”

    161. heedtracker says:

      It was Cockers of the torygraph wot won it, he says. Also he says he doesnt like being called a Tory. This is good though from a proud Scot but, and how to bullshit Scotland for the UKOK union.

      Who wrote THE VOW comical Cockers? tabloid journalism “in which” the leaders promised something. Another day in teamGB media defrauds away like the conmen they are.

      “At the root of this strange phenomenon was the Vow: a piece of brilliant tabloid journalism in which the leaders of the Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat parties promised “extensive” extra powers for the Holyrood Parliament.

      It has since been transformed in the public mind into something resembling Magna Carta. Talked of in hushed tones, it is normally now referred to as “the solemn Vow” which must be honoured, and which Nationalists insist pledges so much devolution as to make it indistinguishable from “pure” independence.

    162. AuldA says:


      And then again, even if he had been, that wouldn’t negate the point that a state-sponsored assassination is something that needs an enormous reason to justify it, and a bit of a nuclear leak isn’t really all that big a deal.

      Well, I’d like to agree with you, but even here in France, which is not known to be a banana republic, there has been strange cases:

      • Maybe the most widely known is Robert Boulin’s ”suicide”:

      • Then there is the case of the late judge Bernard Borrel:

      • Also François de Grossouvre, a Mitterand’s counsellor, who officially suicided in the Elysée’s palace, but was found with two bullets in his head:çois_de_Grossouvre

      • Last (but not least) the most debated “suicide” of the former prime minister, Pierre Bérégovoy: “Pierre Bérégovoy died on 1 May 1993, in Paris after being transported by helicopter from Nevers (Nièvre), where he had been found an hour earlier, in a coma with two bullets in the head. The second bullet was attributed to a nervous reflex.”érégovoy

      In each cases, there were different motives, but nothing even as much serious as a nuclear leak. Bérégovoy, for example, had almost certainly been framed into accepting a no-interest loan from one of Mitterrand’s closest friends, Roger-Patrice Pelat. Opportunely this affair was leaked and Bérégovoy was severely thrashed by the press (although it was by no means not illegal); this was the official motive for his suicide. However, people from Bérégovoy’s entourage reported that he had completely overcome this aftermath of this affair and was about to enter the run-up to the next presidential election.

    163. caz-m says:

      Listening to BBC Radio Scotland “Crossfire” programme this morning and the disappointment in the presenter’s voice when going through this mornings newspapers.

      He just couldn’t believe the lack of coverage that Gordon Brown got. he said, “considering he was on the TV news reports all day yesterday, you would have thought more newspapers would have picked up on it.”

      Or maybe it’s because Brown is now a toxic piece of shit and nobody wants to read about the lies that comes form him anymore.

      The BBC Scotland plan didn’t work. They were wanting mass coverage of Brown in today’s papers.

    164. Stoker says:

      @ Roberto (10.04am).

      Thanks for the response.

      No need to show me the email, Roberto, i believe you.
      I was just curious because i had never seen or heard any sort of public announcement.

      You seem to be determined enough to see it through and you seem to have taken all the appropriate steps. Well done and more power to you.

      I’m not sure its such a good idea putting your phone number up like that. You could end up inundated with calls from every village idiot.

      I’m not very optimistic regarding the outcome but nevertheless at least, thanks to people like you, the ointment has become considerably gritty.

      Looking forward to hearing and reading about the outcome.

    165. muttley79 says:


      The French security services tried to assassinate De Gauille did they not?

    166. Cod says:

      FFS, do people even bother reading things they write about? The column by Martin Kettle in the Guardian on Thursday seems to have been written in some parallel universe. Certainly, despite his assertions that Smith delivers what the majority of Scots want, he is bound to know that what he is writing is utter, utter rubbish, assuming he has more than two brain cells and a working pair of eyes to read with?

      Maybe I should write him a letter detailing where he is wrong in every single part of his column. Not that he would read it, respond to it, print it, or otherwise acknowledge it, I’m sure. His worldview is very firmly informed by his inbuilt biases apparently.

    167. Capella says:

      Thanx for the birthday wishes. Nana, you mentioed it a few threads ago that St Andrews Day was your birthday so hope it is a good one. Sun is shining and I’m off for a birthday lunch.

    168. Bill McLean says:

      Was the castration of Kenyans in the 50s a myth Morag? It was in the high court in 2012 but conveniently swamped by the London Olympics.Did British troops shoot Indians out of cannons? Did they kill an entire village in Malaya in the 50s? Did Britain invent concentration camps? Did they rape male prisoners in Kenya with anything they could including live snakes while playing “God Save the King” over the camp speaker system? Much of the evidence was ordered hidden by the then Governor of Kenya. They have been busily shredding the evidence at Caversham for years! Why Morag if they do now wrong?
      I don’t believe in conspiracy theories either Morag. You seem to dismiss anything at all that proves what we know about GB – it did not rule 2/3rds of the world with gentility nor for for altruistic motives!!! The MacCrae case deserves more than casual dismissal!

    169. AuldA says:

      @Muttley: you refer to the Petit Clamart’s shooting?

      A great birthday to all of those who were born a 30th of November!

    170. John H. says:

      Bill McLean

      There’s a book you might find interesting for sale online. It’s called Cruel Brittania- A secret history of torture, by Ian Cobain. It’s an eye opener.

    171. Bill McLean says:

      John H. Thanks for that info. I find it difficult to believe that Morag, surely knowing something of GB activities elsewhere, would dismiss the MacCrae case as “conspiracy theory”. I will get hold of that book. Thanks again!

    172. No no no...Yes says:

      Alistair Grapevine 1:00am Kininvie 1:04am
      Great to meet you and your crew last week in the Yes bar. The Alert Readers badges being worn with pride!

      “I have to say I’ve noticed a change of tone on Wings too. A lot of comments are angry and dismissive where they used to be thoughtful and funny. Rage against the machine is not the answer – it’s playing right into the establishment’s hands. I don’t know what the answer is, but I do know that if we lose the sense of humour and fun that was characteristic of Yes, we alienate people rather than attract them.

      I agree that there is a slight change in tone at present, but it is natural to vent such disappointment and Wings is a good place to do that. Humour and fun are fundamental elements of what generates a feeling of happiness, contentment and wellbeing within a person. Post referendum, this is continuing.

      Being part of a cause that seeks continued progression of devolution towards full independence is worthy indeed. The YES activism and membership of a political party stimulates that sense of belonging and further develops a positive state of mind which is capable of achieving great influence and change.

      Victories and progress are important, but so too is patience. Fortunately, the political timetable in the next three years with Westminster, Holyrood and local council elections provide the opportunities for that enthusiasm to flourish and thrive further.

      The People of Scotland have the sense of humour and fun and a “stickabilibity” to succeed and fulfil their dreams.

    173. Morag says:

      Here we go again. I express an opinion, and instead of putting forward a contrary opinion, or reasoned arguments, all I get is a pile-on.

      Bill, have you even read what I wrote?

      I was discussing the McRae mystery from an undecided perspective, and commented that I didn’t think that nuclear safety issues were likely to provide a big enough motivation for the British state to decide to murder a British citizen on British soil. That’s my opinion, for what it’s worth. I might be underestimating the importance of nuclear safety issues, but there it is.

      Instead of a reasonable argument, I was piled on first with a link to the Kennedy assassination. Now there are no doubt many people who believe Kennedy was assassinated by the US security forces but there are also many who do not, so it’s hardly a killer point in context. The response to my pointing this out was, in effect, that I must be “unreal” (and “myopic”) if I didn’t go along with that particular theory.

      How is this any sort of reasoned argument?

      Now Bill has come out with a list of atrocities carried out by the British state in foreign countries against foreign victims. I don’t see what that has to do with the discussion either, which is about a British citizen who died on British soil.

      Please point out where I dismissed anything about the McRae case as a “conspiracy theory”. I’m intrigued by the incident, and have certainly never dismissed the suggestion that he was murdered. Indeed, I disagreed with a couple of people who leaned to the suicide theory. My main issue is that because of the lack of evidence and indeed the inadvertent destruction of evidence, we’ll probably never find out.

      This discussion started because the Express provided a brand new potential motive for McRae to have been murdered. I joined the discussion by remarking that while I had always had reservations about the nuclear industry motivation being strong enough to lead to a murder, the paedophile revelations might be a more plausible motivation.

      Except, it’s the Express, and they don’t seem to have anything but a vague hearsay rumour to back up their story.

      What on earth have I said this time to provoke the tital wave of hate and fury that has resulted from what seems to me to be an unremarkable position on the incident?

    174. Grouse Beater says:

      Sorry to be the one, Morag, but that’s a lot of waffle to put forward the opinion that you have no opinion.

      Personally I don’t accept the view that Britain’s secret ‘police’ are unlikely to murder a British citizen on British soil than might be assassinated on foreign soil, or in a far off British territory.

      Making a death appear a genuine accident or planned force against a ‘terrorist’ is the only concern of official killers. (See assassination of Charles de Menezes.)

      But I share your interest in getting to the bottom of the death of McCrae – a man no relative or intimate felt was depressed or nearing bankruptcy – is a mystery that should be solved. If a man wants to commit suicide he generally does it at home.

      That McRae knew of a paedophile ring of MPs might seem far fetched – a recent development attached to an aged incident – but the ring seems to have been in existence a very long time. It’s just as likely as the theory he knew of other illegal goings on in the nuclear industry, or, dare I say it, a friend with a grudge. Where there’s big money involved there are nefarious plans for keeping power.

      I agree that it’s unsafe to attribute all such mysterious killings to knowledge of a secret child sex ring – Jill Dando’s assassination included – but then again every possibility should be left on the table for scrutiny.

    175. Grouse Beater says:

      I don’t believe in conspiracy theories either, Morag

      I do. Political history is littered with them.

    176. Morag says:

      Well, I don’t have an opinion about the McRae incident, because I don’t have enough information. Sorry if that sounds like waffle but there it is. I still fail to see what I said to deserve the monstering I got.

      I was doing no more than discussing what sort of motivation might be strong enough to provoke such an assassination, if assassination it was. There may be something about nuclear safety at Dounrey that’s a big enough deal, but I don’t see that it’s such a strange thing to express doubts about that.

      The other possibility that it could have been a plain vanilla grudge murder is also a reasonable point of view.

      The main problem with the paedophile ring/child murders motivation is that there seems to be no actual evidence and it’s only the Express whipping up a vague hearsay rumour.

      I don’t even know who I’m supposed to be disagreeing with at this point. Even people who are expressing the same views as I am are joining in to attack me. What’s the point, guys.

    177. Fred says:

      As if the British stste would stoop to murdering its citizens or anybody else’s, the very idea Miss Moneypenny!
      I can thoroughly reccommend “Gladio” by R.Cottrell for your Xmas stocking folks, a tale of everyday murder & mayhem by the US & UK security services in post-war Europe. Amazon have it for about £13.
      Northern Ireland was no stranger to state sponsored murder, we’ll never know the half of it.

    178. Morag says:

      I don’t believe in conspiracy theories either, Morag

      I do. Political history is littered with them.

      I think there’s fallacy on both sides of that argument.

      Conspiracies happen. Iran Contra, the Catholic church child abuse cover-ups, all sorts of things. On the other hand a lot of the more fevered presentations of “conspiracy theories” in the end turn out to be baseless when the so-called evidence is examined.

      The point is that each incident has to be considered on its merits, and on the strength of the evidence put forward. Sometimes the evidence will lead one way, sometimes the other.

      Arguably, one of the neater tricks of the establishment has been to brand the “conspiracy theory” as something which is by definition false. That leads to the dismissive chain of reasoning that goes like this.

      What you allege would require there to have been a conspiracy (whether that’s true or not!). Thus, what you are proposing is a conspiracy theory. That means that you are a conspiracy theorist. Everyone knows that conspiracy theorists are batshit mental and their ideas ludicrous. Therefore I don’t need to take you seriously.

      I’ve had exactly that argument aimed at me, several times, most recently and explicitly from Magnus Linklater. It’s a fallacy, but a very convenient one.

      So long as we have one group professing to disbelieve in anything that’s described as a conspiracy theory, and the other group monstering anyone who has the temerity to ask for evidence to support the proposition that a particular nefarious incident happened, the Powers that Be will be laughing all the way to the bank.

    179. Morag says:

      Fair enough, Fred. The discussion, certainly on my part, was about what motivation might be sufficient for a state-sponsored murder of a citizen to happen. Not about whether it could never happen.

    180. Grouse Beater says:

      Morag: The main problem with the paedophile ring/child murders motivation is that there seems to be no actual evidence and it’s only the Express whipping up a vague hearsay rumour.

      Actually, I agree with that view, but won’t be surprised if it proves incorrect.

      As for conspiracy theories: Mary’s private secretary, David Rizzio, wasn’t murdered because the nobles hated Italian music or lutes.

      “Those who agree with me are attacking me.”

      There’s a pattern, Morag. You see something unproven, spend a lot of effort proving it’s unproven, and then cry personal attack if more than one person disagrees with you. You ‘disagree,’ they ‘mob.’

    181. Morag says:

      As I said on Twitter, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, and it’s irrational to insist that the story must be false simply because the Express printed it. More evidence may emerge.

      I see something unproven, and a bunch of people insisting it’s gospel truth. Of course I point out that it’s not proven. For some reason that seems to attract a lot of hate round here.

      Even you can’t bring yourself to ease off your attacks, even when you can’t find anything specific to attack me for.

    182. Grouse Beater says:

      On political scandals involving murder: Jeremy Thorpe, the Liberal leader (1967-76) was charged with conspiracy to murder his homosexual lover, Norman Scott, who was about to go public over their split.

      Ultimately he was aquitted, but it ruined his reputation (he was also ‘happily married’) and he resigned as leader. If my memory serves me well I believe Scott’s poor dog got shot as an initial warning.

      There are other examples, people about to spill the beans on corruption falling off balconies while stone sober, that sort of freak ‘incident.’

    183. Grouse Beater says:

      Even you can’t bring yourself to ease off your attacks, …

      You’re doing it again, interpreting all rebuttal as attack on your integrity. I went to some length to agree with your general opinion while rejecting any naivety over aspects related to the British establishment’s capacity for silencing dissent and accusation.

    184. Morag says:

      None of that brings us any closer to knowing what happened to Willie McRae of course. Some deaths are accidents, some are suicides, some are common or garden murders, some are terrorism and some are state assassinations.

      Knowing that doesn’t help decide which category a particular death falls into without sufficient evidence to decide.

      What about the man who was shot by a stranger on his own doorstep, with the killer just walking off and no clues evern being discovered? That’s even weirder than Jill Dando.

    185. Morag says:

      You’re doing it again, interpreting all rebuttal as attack on your integrity. I went to some length to agree with your general opinion while rejecting any naivety over aspects related to the British establishment’s capacity for silencing dissent and accusation.

      Sorry, but your last paragraph was nothing more than a repeat of your permanent “attack Morag” strategy, for no reason at all. Now you criticise me for pointing out that certain allegations are unproven. Why shouldn’t I? Why is that not an acceptable line of posting?

      And I don’t believe I exhibited any “naivety” such as you allege. I was trying to discuss what sort of motivation might be strong enough to trigger a state-sponsored assassination. I think this is a legitimate topic. I don’t believe McRae was murdered for being a member of the SNP, as some have claimed, otherwise there would have been a lot more deaths. I’m doubtful about the nuclear waste suggestion. I was looking at the paedophile ring motivation and remarking that it was perhaps a more plausible motivation than the other, if it turned out to be true.

      Just what the hell is wrong with holding that opinion and expressing it, that I have to be subjected to such a barrage of misinterpretation and personal attacks?

    186. thomaspotter2014 says:

      Iraq and Afganistan were state sponsored murder of our soldiers!

    187. Grouse Beater says:

      The discussion, certainly on my part, was about what motivation might be sufficient for a state-sponsored murder of a citizen to happen.

      In modern times the CIA has a long list of assassinations to its record, especially in South American countries, (see assassination of Archbishop Oscar Romero) and all attacks on Cuba began as conspiracies, including the risible one to poison Castro’s cigars. The British establishment also murders by proxy in the Middle East.

      All conspiracies, Guy Fawkes included, have a single goal. The conspirators, whether instructed by an individual or acting from group concern, aim to retain power in one way or another by extinguishing opposition to theirs.

      It’s therefore not impossible to believe McRae was murdered for purely political reasons.

    188. Grouse Beater says:

      Morag: Just what the hell is wrong with holding that opinion and expressing it

      You have a problem accepting opposing opinion with grace.

      I show that political conspiracies to murder are historic record, and modern day politicians are not free of them.

      You made your opinion known, and I have made mine.

    189. Morag says:

      And I for one never said it was impossible. I was merely discussing what might amount to sufficient reason for them to go that far.

      Continually coming back with assertions that they’re certainly capable if it doesn’t advance the discussion in the slighest.

    190. AuldA says:

      The discussion, certainly on my part, was about what motivation might be sufficient for a state-sponsored murder of a citizen to happen.

      Take the example of the famous Air Korean flight 007, which was, officially, brought down by a Russian fighter. It turns out the plane was hit by an American missile, and the whole plane was used as a bait to monitor Russian response to aerial space intrusion. The flight instruments had been tampered with and rigged during the Anchorage refueling so that the pilot was unaware that he was encroaching on Russian space. Apparently, the plane was sneakily followed by American fighters and an AWACS plane. There appeared to be an aerial combat between the Russian and American fighters, and one American missile erroneously shot the commercial plane.

      This explanation has been categorized as ‘conspiracy theory’, but I’ve had some private talks with a former French secret service official that tend to support this interpretation. It was even semi-publicized on a French radio program called ‘Rendez-vous avec X’, which has not the reputation to talk rubbish.

      The Americans, of course, will not acknowledge this interpretation, all the more that one congressman was amongst the casualties.

      Of course, this is not a deliberate murder, but it illustrates that when a state, even democratic, has an urgent need in terms of intelligence, it rarely backs up because the life of one of its citizen is at stake.

      (And, no, I’m NOT into Morag bashing).

    191. Morag says:

      I show that political conspiracies to murder are historic record, and modern day politicians are not free of them.

      And I certainly didn’t dispute that at all so I don’t quite see why you’re making such a big deal out of it.

      You seem determined to attack me for things I haven’t said, and I’m sick of it. I haven’t even heard an opposing opinion. When I questioned whether nuclear safety was sufficient motivation for murder I didn’t get an opposing opinion, I got a link to the Kennedy murder, as if that was somehow relevant.

      I don’t have a problem with reasoned discussion. I’m getting sick of being confronted with non-sequitur assertions that somehow I’m required to agree with or else it’s the hate-fest all over again.

    192. Grouse Beater says:

      (I’m NOT into Morag bashing.)

      Good luck with that one. 🙂

    193. muttley79 says:


      When people challenge you on something you have said on here, why do you say you are being attacked? You post robust opinions, and then when they are challenged, you start saying things like people are piling in? If you start saying things like there is no proof that JFK was assassinated by elements of the American state, then people are going to strongly challenge this. This is because there is evidence that he was, not enough to be used in court, but certainly enough to have grave doubts about the whole Oswald did it alone version. For example, do I really need to go through a whole list of CIA officers and their actions (in Mexico City and elsewhere)?

    194. Morag says:

      AuldA, again I don’t see the relevance of what you posted to what we were discussing. I don’t know whether what you posted is true or not, but what does it add to the debate?

      Is it possible there was some scandal linked to Dounrey that was sufficiently embarrassing for the security services to decide to murder Willie McRae? I suppose there might have been but I can’t immediately see what there is about nuclear safety that would cause them to go so far.

      Is it possible rather that he had evidence relating to the child sex abuse and murder allegations that are now coming out and that this was in fact why he was got rid of? It seems to me this would be a far more plausible motive if it were true, but so far we only have an unsubstantiated rumour printed by the Express to go on, which isn’t much.

      That is pretty much the sum total of all I have been saying in the entire conversation. I don’t see how repeated postings about other examples of possible, probable or even proven state-sponsored killing illuminates the debate.

    195. Morag says:

      Muttley, I don’t think you’re reading what I’ve been typing.

      I was offered a comment-free link to the film of Kennedy’s death as a response to my post that I believed the British state would only go so far as to murder a British citizen on British soil if it had an extremely compelling reason. I saw no relevance to that link at all. I tried to point out that many people do not agree that Kennedy was murdered by the US security forces and so the comparison was invalid. I was then attacked for not believing in the Kennedy conspiracy theory.

      This isn’t a debate about the Kennedy killing. I don’t think Wings is the place for a debate about the Kennedy killing. I don’t think I’ve posted a “strong opinion” in this thread at all. I merely took exception to the implication that I was required to believe that Kennedy was assassinated by the US state, without any doubt at all.

      Some people believe that Kennedy was murdered by the security forces, some don’t. You can’t dispute that. You can’t cite Kennedy’s death even as irrefutable proof that the US security forces are prepared to murder, never mind of what their British counterparts are or aren’t prepared to do.

    196. AuldA says:

      @Grouse Beater:
      I’m mot into Grouse Beater’s bashing neither 🙂

      By the way, it’s a long time you haven’t written something on your blog!

    197. Grouse Beater says:

      long time you haven’t written something on your blog!

      ‘The Myth Commission’ written a few days ago!

      Maybe time for a non-political blog again – am thinking of wheelie bin wars! 🙂

    198. AuldA says:


      I wasn’t trying to add an element to the case under discussion, of which, I freely admit, I know zilch. I was trying to illustrate that state-murders can be politically motivated, and even mass murdering (even if it was accidental) in the case of the 007 Korean Boeing. Nothing more. I am sure some people have been killed by western democracies for more petty motives than nuclear shenanigans. If it happened elsewhere, it may just also have happened in the UK. But I don’t pretend it is the case in the particular affair you discuss.

    199. Bill McLean says:

      Morag – my pointing out the atrocities committed by GB seems to puzzle you! You don’t seem to be able to acknowledge that like people, countries have characteristics that define some of their actions. They have done these things so why wouldn’t they have removed Mr MacRae. You seem to have a mindset that whatever your view is correct and, by the way I did read your post, like I read all your posts with interest, sometimes admiration but sometimes with exasperation. You are inclined to agree that is was 0.0000000% unlikely that the security services were involved in Mr MacRae’s death yet state that you have no opinion” The rest of your response to me was totally irrelevant! What do you mean you get a “pile-on” – is no one to disagree with you? What “hate and fury” is there in disagreeing with you? How odd that you should express such a view! I do agree with you about the express.

    200. Morag says:

      Well, I don’t know. It was 30 years ago, and there’s no sign of anything emerging around Dounreay that might have provoked anyone to murder to keep it quiet.

      I only remarked that the child rape and murder stuff that is actually emerging might be a more compelling motive, if in fact McRae had stumbled across something. I don’t think the Express has any real evidence though.

      I just don’t know how we got from there to a litany of other allegedly state-sponsored crimes, or the requirement that I must agree that Kennedy was killed by US security officials.

      People hold different opinions as regards Kennedy. I happen to agree with those who believe Lee Harvey Oswald shot him on his own initiative. I might be open to persuasion by the other side, but I don’t think this is the place for that discussion.

      What I was objecting to is the sudden introduction of the requirement that I must agree that Kennedy was murdered by the state, because no other opinion is apparently acceptable here.

    201. Morag says:

      Bill, you’re still not reading what I’m writing.

      The post I agreed with said that it was vanishingly unlikely that Special Branch murdered McRae. It did not, specifically NOT, say that the “security services” weren’t involved.

      Although I said I was “inclined” to agree (hardly a strong endorsement), in my very next sentence I said that the circumstances were “bloody peculiar” and there was no reason why some other agency might not have stepped in at the last stage and done the actual deed.

      Why don’t you go back and read what I actually wrote?

      You accused me of dismissing the suggestion that McRae was murdered by the security services as a “conspiracy theory”. If you read my posts you will see that this is an absolute lie and I have never said any such thing.

      I was merely questioning whether nuclear safety issues were a sufficient reason for such a thing to have happened. And acknowledging that the child murder allegations might indeed be a stronger reason, if the Express story was true.

      You’ve come on here two or three times now and laid into me for saying things I absolutely categorically did not say. You have made up quotes and misquoted me and generally behaved very aggressively to me.

      Yes, it is coming on very much like a personal vendetta.

    202. Grouse Beater says:

      Bill McLean:
      Morag – You are inclined to agree that is was 0.0000000% unlikely that the security services were involved in Mr MacRae’s death yet state that you have no opinion”

      I’m afraid impeccable logic in the face of Morag’s fury will be your undoing. I do admire it, and am keen on it as a method of argument, but knowing the wrath it can trigger I feel tempted instead to tell Morag to take up gardening.

    203. Morag says:

      Here we go again. Grouse Beater continues the pile-on.

      Even after I have pointed out that Bill’s accusation is a lie, still you describe it as “impeccable logic”?

      The other poster (yesindyref2, why don’t you go after him then?) said that it was vanishingly unlikely that Special Branch murdered Willie McRae. Bill, and now you, are simply lying now. There was no claim that it was vanishingly unlikely that the “security services” were involved in his murder. Look back and check what was actually written and stop lying about it.

      I said I was inclined to agree with that, but continued by saying that considering how peculiar the circumstances were, surely it was possible that some other agency had come in at the final stage and actually carried out the deed.

      Why do you have this compulsion to attribute positions to me that I simply do not hold, and then attack me for these positions? It’s senseless bullying.

    204. Bill McLean says:

      Morag – it is clear from you many posts that you wish to dismiss the MacCrae case as a “conspiracy theory” – whether you actually used those words or not! I take serious exception to you writing that I am lying! Your use of words and phrases like “pile-in” and “hate and fury” and “personal vendetta” are as disturbing as your implying that I am a liar. I don’t know you but sometimes take exception to you high-handed attitude to people who are trying to find their way through the morass of lies and disinformation that many would like us to accept. Remarks like that have no place in this forum and I would hope that you will reconsider your form of attacks on anyone who disagrees with you. I am very disappointed that you adopt such an attitude to variance from your view!

    205. Grouse Beater says:

      ‘Infamy, infamy! They’ve all got it in fo’ me.’

      Night all.

    206. Paula Rose says:

      Hello boys and girls – nice to read that you have all had an outbreak of peace and love xx

    207. muttley79 says:


      You were the one who was commenting on the JFK case. I never brought it up, you were the one who repeatedly talked about it in a number of posts. I never said anyone had to agree with my own view that elements of the American state were involved in JFK assassination, you are putting words into my mouth for some reason. I was challenging what you were saying, not insisting that anyone should share my opinion of it. If you read your own posts then you will see how many times you bring up JFK, and then you say we should not talk about it on here!!

    208. Morag says:

      Bill, you are at best completely misinterpreting my posts, and in fact lying about me. I’m intrigued by the McRae incident, and have at no time dismissed any interpretation as a “conspiracy theory”. So how you can possibly think that I did, I have absolutely no idea.

    209. Bill McLean says:

      I will repeat I have not ever and will not lie about you or anyone! Read back through your posts and remember the “comprehension” you were taught at school! Calling people who disagree with you a liar has no place in this forum! How dare you?

    210. Morag says:

      Muttley, I replied to another poster who seemed to think that an oblique reference to the Kennedy assassination (without comment) was a useful and sufficient answer to a post of mine where I said that for the British state to decide to murder a British citizen, the stakes would have to be extremely high.

      Subsequent posts from him and others, including you, indicated that no dissent from your own opinion about the case was to be tolerated.

      As I said numerous times, even if the US security forced did murder Kennedy, it would tell us precisely nothing about whether or not the British security forces had murdered McRae.

    211. Bill McLean says:

      Enough Morag! How many people are you going to attribute your own fault too. Never again!!!

    212. Morag says:

      Bill, you accused me of asserting that the discussion about the death of McRae was a “conspiracy theory”. This is a lie, flat-out. I said, and think, no such thing.

      You stated, again flat-out, that I had agreed with a poster who stated that the chances of the security services having been involved in McRae’s death were 0.0000%. Again, this is a lie as the post I agreed with did not say that. Moreover, in my own post I specifically introduced the possibility of “other agencies” having been brought in to do the deed, if (as the poster had suggested) Special Branch would not have done it themselves.

      The posts are there for all to read. I have pointed your error out several times and yet you continue to badger me with false accusations. How dare you!

    213. Morag says:

      Show me where I dismissed this discussion as a conspiracy theory! Show me where I agreed with anyone saying it was impossible that the security services were involved!

      You can’t, because you made both of these allegations up yourself Bill.

      How many times are you going to repeat your attacks before you go back and check your facts and admit that you’re wrong?

    214. Bill McLean says:

      Morag – “I am inclined to go along with that” – your words not mine. I would not accuse anyone of lying. I’m afraid that your comments are becoming worrying. Now I am “badgering” you – like being called a liar??

    215. Morag says:

      Read what I said I was inclined to go along with. It is not what you said it was. I’ve pointed this out three times already.

      Not only have you lied about what yesindyref2 said (that I said I was inclined to agree with), you have steadfastly ignored the fact that in my very next sentence I expressed the opinion that some other agency (not Special Branch) might have been brought in to do the deed.

      You have lied and lied and lied about what I said. You refuse to go back and check your errors, even though I have explained them repeatedly.

      I don’t know what I’ve ever done to you for you to attack me like this. Is it just that Grouse Beater and some of his friends like to bully me, so you think you can get in on the act? Coward.

    216. Bill McLean says:

      OK Morag – I am worried about you. I am not “attacking” or “badgering” you nor have I called you a liar as you have me. Possibly your embarrassment at your allegation is skewing you subsequent posts. I am entitled to a point of view without being called names or demeaned in any way!

    217. Lenny Hartley says:

      Right boys and girls, not wanting to pour petrol on the flames but, watch the attached clip.

      If Willie Mcrae had plans to expose a Paedophile ring at Westminster, its possible that he discovered something when he was Aide de Camp to Mountbatten in India when he served in the British Army. David Icke (I know, I know) has long since claimed that Mountbatten was a Paedophile

      Now I take 99% of Ickes utterings with a pinch of salt, but there could be a connection, what is certain is that Paedophile rings have and probably still are operating at the heart of the British Establishment, and have done for a very long time.

    218. muttley79 says:


      Subsequent posts from him and others, including you, indicated that no dissent from your own opinion about the case was to be tolerated.

      Ironic much? 😀 😀

    219. Morag says:

      No. I’ve never said I thought it was impossible that McRae was murdered by a state agency to keep him quiet. And I’m sick of people who can’t read.

      Hounding me for not agreeing with you about Kennedy is petty and ridiculous.

      And I’m not embarrassed about anything. I am annoyed when people accuse me of things I haven’t done. And keep on doing it despite repeated corrections.

    220. Natasha says:

      I know I’ve only been posting on Wings for a few months, but I do have to say that there seems to be a pattern of having a go at Morag every time she posts. I’m not saying I always agree with everything she says (for example, I was at a loss to understand the outburst against Craig Murray) but I have always been impressed by her painstaking honesty and clarity of thought on other issues.

      Yet there are two or three people in particular who inevitably resort to abuse in response to her comments. In fact, as soon as I see a post from Morag, I know that in the next few comments there will be a diatribe launched against her. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that she is an articulate and strong-minded female? Just throwing that thought in there, mainly because the situation reminds me of my experiences at school when the local bullies ganged up on any girl who dared to have a brain and a voice. I’m distinctly unimpressed by the attitude of said two or three people.

    221. Grouse Beater says:

      Natasha: I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that she is an articulate and strong-minded female?

      Eh, no. Not a harpie either. But like some men, she sometimes has too much to say that amounts to nothing.

    222. Grouse Beater says:

      Morag: I am annoyed when people accuse me of things I haven’t done. And keep on doing it despite repeated corrections.

      Enlightenment lies in your own remark: ‘repeated corrections.’

      There’s the head girl again.

      What annoys is a perception by those engaged that you turn a professed open-mind into insistence your opinion brooks no alternative, a belligerence at odds with an open mind.

      It issues from superfluous repetition followed by insult.

      I wish you were more curious about how others arrive at their opinion. You don’t ask many questions but you have lots of incontrovertable answers. As posts mount it causes the anxious to leap in – see Natasha above – expressing for or against comments that ignore the topic.

      You become the topic – as here.

      The frustrating thing for you is, you’re often right. You do get misunderstood. Reading back here I can see that. But there is a good reason.

      Posters are jolted, bound to relatiate when their insistence of belief is invariably interpreted as personal attacks. (I expect my explanation duly denounced.)

      There are techniques that avoid unfortunate skirmishes. Calling friendly posters ‘liars’ isn’t one of them, nor accusing them of multi-attacks when it’s nothing more than treating you as a poster with an interesting opinion.

    223. muttley79 says:


      As far as I can tell you keep on accussing people of things. I never asked anybody to agree with me. Unfortunately you interpret people challenging you to them attacking you, hounding you etc. You launch highly personal attacks on people like Craig Murray, but get upset when you are on the receiving end of mild criticism. This should suggest something.

    224. Chic McGregor says:

      The question I would like to ask of both Morag and the n Morag detractors is Why? period.

      None of the topics in dispute bare any relation to the merits of independence but the petty squabbling could, though slightly at best, be deleterious to that cause.

      So I repeat. Why? and please stop it.

    225. geeo says:

      The bigger point to be made, imo, is why is there such a low key approach (media especially) to the alleged WM paedophile/murder scandal.

      It seems to be quietly accepted at least some of these things happened (not noticed any outraged or otherwise, deniers).
      Why would this not be the biggest political story in history (arguably)?

      It has been claimed there was a child murder at the hands of a WM connected paedophile and that a seemingly well known about paedophile from previous government cabinets is CURRENTLY still an elected MP.

      The question we should be asking as a people is, WTF is going on here ???

    226. Grouse Beater says:

      Geeo: The question we should be asking as a people is, WTF is going on here???

      Certainly not justice as we know it.

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