Honesty boxing
Shall we keep track of some of the falsehoods printed by the Scottish and UK media today with regard to the Lord Ashcroft polling, and see which ones ever get corrected?
It seems like that’s the sort of thing we usually do, so we probably should.
Here’s Simon Johnson in the Telegraph:
This, unfortunately, is total rubbish. The first sentence is true – 49% of respondents thought independence was the Scottish Government’s biggest priority. However, it also clearly means that 51% of people DIDN’T think that.
And the 36% and 61% figures apply to EVERYONE in the poll, not just the first 49%. That is, 61% of Scots think the Scottish Government has its priorities wrong, but they’re not necessarily the people who think its priority is independence.
(It would be a statistical miracle if they were, since the 61% comprises 461 actual voters, while just 40 more – 501 – rated independence the SG’s priority, and you’d have to assume that a fair number of those people were in fact SNP voters who were entirely fine with that being the case.)
Some of them are almost certainly – the poll doesn’t provide the data necessary to say for sure – people who, for example, think its priority is the NHS but should be creating jobs, or who think its priority is welfare but SHOULD be independence.
Johnson’s assertion is simply factually wrong. We’ll let you know when the piece is edited to fix the mistake, or a correction is printed. We’re not holding our breath.
You’ve got a job for life there or at least until next September.
Simon Johnson is a terrible journalist, factual inaccuracy I doubt would bother him, he seems more the type to take greater pleasure from an article the more he can spin it.
Its good Rev that you can deconstruct the BT’s polls and point out the lies, but theirs no surprise in the polls that are released from the BT camp their predictable, and as I said in the previous post, they will soon be forgotten by Joe Public, just like the runner up in the Grand National horse race.
The YES camp dont have the luxury of the MSM on their side, so a staunch Pro-Active position is required to counter the MSM, and not one of pointing the finger or denouncing the BT camp, but one of providing FACTS about the benefits of independence, bickering with BT will get YES nowhere, talking to Joe Public as much as possible and on as many levels as possible is the REAL KEY to winning the referedum, networking people from all different areas and backgrounds will get the truth out, I honestly think people are sick to death of polls that show nothing but percentages that are then bickered over.
The Telegraph? Johnson the editor who employs Cochers? Admit they were wrong? Ha ha argh ha ha hah!
And the 36% and 61% figures apply to EVERYONE in the poll, not just the first 49%.
To be fair I think this is actually what he is trying to say – he says “barely a third … of Scots” which would suggest he means the whole sample (Damn you for making me defend someone on the DT).
It would be nice if Lord A published the appropriate analysis and tables so we could see what these figures actually do suggest – at the moment they’re pretty meaningless.
“To be fair I think this is actually what he is trying to say – he says “barely a third … of Scots””
No – the “barely a third” is people who DO think the SG’s priorities are correct.
It’s going to be a real pleasure kicking this lot into touch next year!
O/T Rev but typical of the BT mentality.
link to newsnetscotland.com
Did Simon Johnson write this all by his self or did he just regurgitate what he had been told by the Better Together squad without carrying out any investigations on his own? Personally I think he has just regurgitated the lies, deceit and misinformation from Better Together without even giving it the slightest thought to questioning or investigating any of their ‘claims!’
The good thing is that when anyone CONTINUES to manipulate figures into nonsense it becomes obvious to everyone, even those not really concerned with politics, just like part one of project fear, all those doom and gloom stories, did not have the effect the No lot wanted because we kept going straight to the folk who really matter, namely the voters, with the simple truth.
We have to keep telling a clear, understandable story to the same folk, the most of whom think there is still too long a time to be weighing things up seriously just yet and won’t begin to do so until sometime next year.
In the main those who have made their minds up are folk like us who had already decided what way we are voting, I reckon that there is not much between the two camps despite the media dominated efforts the NO’s have put in.
I also believe that non-opinion poll efforts can be even more effective on the public and their views, that’s why things like the March and Rally are important, it’s difficult to argue against the sight of thousands of folk on the march.
O/T
BBC Scotland are having a debate in Inverness on the 18th of September on Scotland’s Future.
Details to apply on their website.
BBC debate Inverness application
link to wwwnews.live.bbc.co.uk
I did a poll of my own and the results are just in; 100% of the British media prints shite every day but some print more shite than others.
My data tables suggest The Scotsman is the worst followed closely by The Herald. Hardly anyone reads the English shite anyway so they don’t count unless it has the Saltire stuck on the cover to make readers think adverts for holiday homes in Cornwall are available to those willing to make the short drive just over the border.
And for the stupid ones, the M4 corridor isn’t upstairs in a hospital in Wiltshire, it’s outside.
On the subject of honesty I posted this in the Herald, unlike the poll results three posts, they published.
“It’s worth remembering that the anti-Independence politicians and pundits do not need to tell the truth or present real information, for the simple reason that if at some time in the future this is exposed, what could voters in Scotland do about it? Answers to that specific question from pro-Unionist would be interesting and welcome. What could voters in Scotland do about it?”
I didn’t expect any answers, but I wanted to raise this part of the debate for any readers on the site. maybe somebody would start to think about the future in Scotland, the options beyond the Referendum and what we are being told. It wasn’t really aimed at the hardened Unionists.
As folk are going to work, and the headline on the newspaper stand says ‘only 14% of Scots support Indy’, job done.
Yup, regurgitated by some of my colleagues at work. Needless to say they seemed surprised that it was a Tory poll, months out of date and included statistical contortions not out of place in a gym hall. This is the greatest risk, and that’s why BT are so confident. It would appear they’ve got it stitched up the back in that respect.
I’m tempted to ask Anthony Wells at Yougov how they can explain why the bigger the support for the SNP is, the bigger the No they get. It’s the opposite of all the other polls.
You never know, might get them to change their weighting. Now that would ruffle some feathers…
In fact, I think I will do that…
Tsk! Honesty and truth are just FRONTS for the SNP. You can’t take them seriously.
I am just happy that people can dissect these polls to enable a lay person like me to understand them. Although I am becoming increasing aware of the latest sound bite which is “Scotland on pause”!!
Anas Sarwar in the Scotsman and above article states “This poll reinforces what Scottish Labour has been saying for months, the SNP has put Scotand on pause while they focus on breaking up Britian”.
Guff like this drives me absolutely nuts – it doesn’t matter what the issue is but this phrase is being used more frequent and also by the Scottish Labour Leader who uses it quite often.
Juteman says:
9 September, 2013 at 7:18 pm
As folk are going to work, and the headline on the newspaper stand says ‘only 14% of Scots support Indy’, job done.
Good Point Brother / it can be effective on the dimmer citizens amongst us.
Juteman
” the newspaper stand says ‘only 14% of Scots support Indy'”.
Which paper was that?
If we did vote with only 14%, then we could and would be labelled ‘the most gullible, no, stupidest people on the planet’, and would be treated accordingly!
OT An interesting report from the Cuthberts written for the Jimmy Reid Foundation for all the economos out there. Starts giving ideas of what an independent government could actually do differently.
link to optionsforscotland.com
The issue is media bias. It could also be media discalculia, as it is a rare thing indeed to find a journalist with more than a rudimentary grasp of numbers and statistics.
@jamiearriere
Staying with alternative views the Common Weal are doing a fundraiser, for my money, and I have donated, Robin McAlpine is a real asset to the debate, here’s the page for anyone that wants to donate
link to indiegogo.com
Is that Count Discalculia?
No one supporting Yes should be surprised at the ramping up of the Propaganda machine. The Unionist establishment are probably the worlds foremost masters at the black art. They honed their skills in the 1st and 2nd World Wars and perfected their techniques during the Cold War and Thatchers war on the trade unions in the 80’s and 90’s.
Now it is Scotland’s turn, we are a threat, that makes Yes supporters the enemy. This is all very logical, this is not about Democracy but all about power, their power and the means of continuing it. They have two main tools, propaganda and censorship aided and abeted by the owners of the media including the state controlled media.
One definition is as follows:
“1. Propoganda
2. What is propaganda “ Propaganda is the deliberate, systematic attempt to shape perceptions, manipulate cognitions, and direct behavior to achieve a response that furthers the desired intent of the propagandist.” — Jowett & O’Donnell, Propaganda and Persuasion Any information, ideas, doctrines or special appeals, disseminated to influence the opinions, emotions, attitudes or behaviors of any specified group in order to benefit the sponsor, either directly or indirectly. __ NATO Definition
3. Let’s start with the (pre-) conceptions Propaganda is about lying or, at best, half-truths It is about playing to emotions rather than reason It is a ‘dirty trick’ designed to get people to do something they might not otherwise have done It is only done by ‘them’ i.e. dictators who fear public opinion – ‘we’ tell the truth It is only done in wartime by democracies It is an abuse of communications processes.”
link to slideshare.net
Albalha says:
9 September, 2013 at 8:24 pm
Their Guide to the Common Weal book is a worth a read as well !
“Albalha says:
9 September, 2013 at 8:24 pm
Their Guide to the Common Weal book is a worth a read as well !”
And now [CITE] tags? IT’S LIKE YOU’RE TRYING TO MAKE ME CRAZY, GORDOZ.
😉
@CraigP
Dyscalculia perhaps. One of my occasional habits is to compare Rep Scot with An La, the latter gives a much rounder, honest picture of our country. The resource analysis would be interesting, blows the too poor etc theory apart.
Their title, holding graphics are way ahead of Rep Scot. But they do have lots of repetiton.
For example tonight An La did a decent report from Faslane on an ecumenical protest, nowhere to be seen on Rep Scot.
Btw neither programme featured the Ashcroft ‘poll’.
Jamie Arriere says:
‘Options for Scotland’ thats the papaers name / sounds a bit positive …… but wait…….
And heres the positive spin the ‘UK State Broadcaster’ put on it on their News website.
Scottish independence: Document warns about making pro-Yes concessions
‘An independent Scotland could find itself tied into “crippling” constraints set by countries and organisations, it has been warned’.
Typical : Still sound positive??
o/t anyone know what has happened to BBCScotlandshire?
It seems to have been disappeared with only a jpeg appearing on their site!
@boorach
Working fine as far as I can see link to bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk
Albaha: An La, sounds interesting, is new to me, going to check it out.
Breastplate: 😀
Excellent current issue of the Scottish Left Review on the Commom Weal proposals and particularly the contributions by Jim Mather and Lesley Riddoch.
I have just emailed RT suggesting they come and do live coverage of our big march because I’m bloody sure BBC and STV will ignore it. After all there will be a pulsating gymkhana taking place at Scrotum-On-The-Mold to be covered
BBC are inviting questions for a webcast into the referendum centered around the common weal.
Scottish independence: Put your questions to Alex Massie and Willie Sullivan
link to bbc.co.uk
I’m getting fed up of bloody polls. And I’m sure the general public are too. Confused at the very least. Energies focused on promoting the positive benefits of independence must surely be more productive..
@Albalha
no good I’m afraid… all I get on ipad is a jpeg of superman’s ‘Y’ fronts
If it is the case you are only as good as your last poll then the Yes camp are in the lead.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Every other poll pre-dates the Panel base poll.
I did a poll of my own and allowing for rounding up of figures and naturally allowing for margins of error and weighting Brit Guff style I found that 1000% of my respondants thought that the Brit Press and Media was total s!!!e!
@boorach
Sorry can’t help out more. Y fronts, sounds rather disturbing ….even if they are from the Superman.
Walked past the paper shop at the bus station on the way home from work. Saw the headlines. Looked at the respective papers Scottish Daily Express, Scottish Mail. Nuff said.
English Papers pretending to be Scottish… and by the amount of papers that remained unsold most Scots are not fooled.
The only way to counter this is to keep spreading the word. I frequently share stuff from here and other sites on facebook. Best thing was that this weekend I found out that my posts are having some effect. Few people comment on them and I wasn’t sure anyone was even reading them but I found out that one of my FB friends has read them all and decided to vote yes as a result, even coming to the rally. Every little helps.
@gordoz
Yeah, I saw the link on that BBC report – well of course they’ll pick out the ‘dangers’ in the report, that’s just what they do. But the report doesn’t seem to underplay the difficulty of the negotiation process ; the currency question will be probably a dominant question and a possibly restricting factor to an indy govt to some extent. But nevertheless it identifies plenty of the problems there are with the UK currently, and how they can be tackled/avoided in future. It’s sometime hard when asked straight off what an Indy govt could do differently – this stuff helps.
@Albalha,
Money is tight, but I made a small donation. I’ve been impressed by their output too so far, and look forward to more. Other voices and contributions alongside the White Paper are to be welcomed.
Currency scaremongering is nonsense as without the backing of the Scottish economy its value would slide down faster than it is now.
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Is there no end to your intolerance and prejudice? 😉
link to bbc.co.uk
Scottish independence: Put your questions to Alex Massie and Willie Sullivan
The only question of worth is to ask, “How will you vote in the referendum?”
Without that declaration there is no way the viewer can compare and contrast the arguments put forward.
Apart from the statistical malapropisms surely the first sentence needs an apology and correction. The data was collected as far back as February through May. The article wrongly states that the polling took place a month ago. Maybe WOS should consider a twin two pronged attack and create a pirate radio station or spoof TV station to counteract mass media bare faced lies with mass exposure. Vive la pamphleteers .
Lanarkist.
G.H.Graham at 7.00 P.M., those results of your own poll are just dynamite. Could you post them to Prof. Curtice for his analysis.
Isn’t it about time some analyses/ projections were done on the massive negative effects that Scotland removing herself from Unionist clutches will have on the rump UK?
Perhaps it’s now past the point of all of the anxious forecasting of hopeful doom for Scotland and the beginning of realising that time is running out, so get busy on their own damage limitation strategies
Remember that kerfuffle about Sir John Elvidge’s comments a while back?
In the actual meeting referred to, he said that it would be interesting to know how highly the electorate rated the independence issue. In his opinion – the higher up the list of priorities it was, the more likely it would happen.
Just over a year out from the referendum and the MSM have done us a huge favour. There surely can be no one on our side who thinks the MSM will promote debate and accord a fair hearing to both sides. The trashing of the SNP Panelbase poll, the Nelson’s eye afforded to the WoS poll, and the uncritical and approbatory reporting of the You Gov and Ashcroft polls demonstrate beyond doubt that the MSM are the Better Together campaign, and Better Together are the MSM.
We now know, if we didn’t before, that we need to win this war on the ground. And we will.
Well, it’s now 15 hours since I posted my comments re the poll on the Herald website and, surprise, surprise, they have been blocked by the mods. I couldn’t have made them any milder, made no references to other websites didn’t abuse anyone, etc., etc. in other words I complied with every rule of posting. Still they didn’t pass my posts.
I used to think that the Herald was relatively neutral. No longer.
I used to think that the Herald was relatively neutral. No longer.
The polls are turning against the union. Once they turn, they can’t be turned back; they had one chance to scare people, that chance is now largely over. Same stories over and over again. Cry wolf and all that. We’re starting to see the pro-union camp respond to this situation with increasing panic.
By the end of the year polls should be regularly coming close to parity, this will really cause a pro-union shitstorm, which will drive the polls further to Yes and so on. The situation will begin feeding on itself.
A Yes vote in 2014 will be in a large part due to Scotland being forced out of the union by unionists. After all, you don’t stay at someone’s party when they continually lie to you, belittle you, shout at you etc. Eventually, you get up and leave.
Scotland is a human being, just one with 5.3 million minds. The No camp would do well to remember that. The recent article on human response to radical change is spot on. We’re entering the examination phase now; next is commitment.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Andrew – with respect give up on the Herald. I left because of unwarranted “moderation”. There is only a hard core of about 10 to a dozen unionist contributor – leave them to argue amongst themselves and pat each other on the back. Being ignored will drive them to be even nuttier than they are now. Is “Jezerna” still there – very very dodgy. Not my place to tell you what to do but the circular arguments on the Herald go nowhere – exactly what the unionists want!
Things aren’t all doom in MSM land. A quick look at the comments in the Torygraph article linked at the top by the Rev show a link to a Guardian article, link to archive.is, where Severin has picked up Gary Dunion’s rubbishing of Ashcroft’s poll:
A new “super poll” from Lord Ashcroft, the former Tory Treasurer, on Scottish Independence which discloses a headline-grabbing 40% gap between ‘yes’ and ‘no’ has rather backfired.