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From the archives

Posted on December 04, 2017 by

On today’s news that support for independence is back up to 47%, and that Henry McLeish is calling for federalism again, whatever that is.

(NB In 2009 apparently “home rule” actually meant “independence”. Keep up.)

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    1. 04 12 17 15:56

      From the archives | speymouth

    399 to “From the archives”

    1. Bob Mack says:

      No chance. I thought the SNP was the party for independence. How badly did I underestimate the Tories?

      I am simpLy watching as the country rips apart. Mrs May —I commend you.

    2. call me dave says:

      But but…!

      When I see Henry quaffing his caffe Americano in Fife he looks quite rational. Little did I know he still harboured these schemes and stratagems. 🙂

      Just been in the garage dusting the cobwebs off the SNP posters, well you never know.

    3. Dr Jim says:

      Support for Independence is falling so support Independence but on the other hand devolution would be fine if it was Federalism not Independence although Independence would maybe be better but not the answer to being as good as Blah Blah Gizorninplatt

      Aaww ffs, watch my next trick my hands will never leave my arms as I confuse the thick amongst you even more

      Still don’t know what to do? that’s the way we like it, Ooops just heard the bell *Division*!!

    4. Breastplate says:

      I’m pretty sure Henry McLeish doesn’t take Henry McLeish seriously anymore.

    5. ronnie anderson says:

      McLeish keeping Brown’s pish warm lol.

    6. jfngw says:

      Sorry too en-captured by May’s Green, White and Gold Brexit to really deviate and think about more Labour nonsense. Federalism, smedaralism is all that comes to mind.

    7. Macart says:

      Mr McLeish still on the fence then?

      Who knew?

    8. Themadmurph says:

      Wait! Home rule! Wasn’t that what that guy Kier stood for? You know the one Labour always go on about?

    9. Dan Huil says:

      I think Henry should move to Belfast.

    10. Henry again? Another one who scuttled away under a loud. Who bothers to ask him. Mystery.

    11. sinky says:

      The time for Federalism is long past. Remember it was only EU pressure that forced Tony Blair to agree to devolution which Lord George Robertson claimed would kill independence stone dead.

      A customs union for Northern Ireland / Republic transforms the case for Independence.

      More BBC impartiality on 24 hour TV news just a wee while ago:

      “The left leaning Joseph Rowantree Trust”

      when are the numerous right wing think tanks or organisations like the Henty Jackson Society described as Alt right wing groups?

    12. Robert Graham says:

      Sorry Rev I will give this another half hour and it shoot well off Topic, as I just caught a glimpse of the delectable Arline in the background, no doubt she will be opening her Gub shortly .

    13. Andy-B says:

      McLeish, is fast becoming the new Gordon Brown, reeling off incoherent drivel about federalism, everytime the independence movement makes gains.

    14. heedtracker says:

      Bet Crash Gordo’s phone ringing away in that Fife manse hall, ring ring, ring ring… Gordon, its BBC Scotland, they need you to do another Scottish home rule promise thingee.

    15. Robert Graham says:

      Oops a red faced DUP Sammy Wilson interview from the house of ill repute bumping his gums ,he looks like an angry guy that’s just found out he’s been dumped oops how sad ha ha , he looks like he’s going to explode . We are part of the United Kingdom really Sammy oh dear waken up yah dope,

    16. Proud Cybernat says:

      How can Federalism even remotely work in the UK when one of its constituent parts is around 10 times larger than the next largest constituent part?

      Henry – Fed cannae work in a UK context now just put a sock in it, will yae?

      Fed up wi’ Fed so am uhr.

    17. Robert Peffers says:

      @Macart says: 4 December, 2017 at 3:10 pm:

      “Mr McLeish still on the fence then?
      Who knew?”

      No one knew, Macart, not even Henry himself – and he is sitting there with a muckle big paling stab stuck up his arse.

    18. Thepnr says:

      O/T From RTE 15:53

      “British Prime Minister Theresa May and European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker are to make statements shortly. You can watch the statements live on:”

    19. ScottieDog says:

      Simplest th My of course is for England to secede. Of course no politician – even extreme brexiteer would go for that.

    20. stu mac says:

      Unionists hoped the NO win in 2014 would kill off independence but in fact what it killed off was the option for devolution. The lies that were told about devolution-max and the mouse sized devo we got proved that there is no real and honest will for devolution among unionists, no longer even with the Lib-Dems.

      Of course the SNP will accept any tiny extra powers we might be given as a sop because they know not doing so would get fingers pointed at them re not being serious about independence. Besides every little shift may help make new converts to full independence. The thing is if they had kept their word independence support would probably not be as high as it is now. If more folk had paid attention it would be much higher.

    21. Seriously, Henry McLeish?
      Did the Scotsman pay him for this reheated pish?
      No wonder they are going under.
      Most voters under 30 don’t even know who this political failure is, yet he keeps getting wee sinecures. Is it a masonic thing?
      He is of no relevance to anything.
      Henry, shut the fuck up, and tend your allotment.
      The DUP will be spitting teeth. No Irish Border,a United Ireland imminent as Land Rover, Jaguar, Toyota, Ford, and Hyundai quit England and head for the Emerald Isle. Scotland next.
      You couldn’t make it up.
      Nicola will be resubmitting her Scotland in Europe Paper again. Will Davis dismiss it with a one page rejection slip again?
      I bet Mike Russell’s on the phone to Lord Ian Duncan as I type.
      Oh what a lovely Messxit.

    22. galamcennalath says:

      Roll the clock forward ten years …

      Here is the early evening news from the Scottish Broadcasting Service.

      Today the EU agreed to fund the ambition plans for a complex of manmade islands, tunnels and bridges to connect the Federal Republic of Ireland to Scotland across the North Channel. Spokespeople for each of the two member states said they were delighted by the outcome.

      It is fitting that today also marks Scotland taking over the EU presidency. Prime Minister Black said this was a major milestone in Scotland’s long history as part of Europe.

      Also in the news this evening, we can report that Scotland’s tidal power stations exceeded generation of 50GW for the first time. This is sufficient to provide electricity for over 10 million homes across north west Europe.

      Finally, from the Border where we can report that refugees fleeing the political and social chaos to the south are being processed effectively before transiting on to welcome shelters around the EU.

    23. Robert Peffers says:

      @Themadmurph says: 4 December, 2017 at 3:16 pm:

      “Wait! Home rule! Wasn’t that what that guy Kier stood for? You know the one Labour always go on about?”

      Nah! I think it must have been Kier Hardie’s brother Oliver you’re thinking about. You know that one who went around with that Stan Laurel guy.

    24. Jack Murphy says:

      I see Gordon Brown was in Madrid last week WARNING about guess what?

      Catalonian Independence !

      Madrid seems a safe sort of place for him to be at a conference organised by El Confidencial, a Spanish news website, and investment management firm Pimco.

      Next time he might try Barcelona, Girona, Lleida or Tarragona

    25. Robert Peffers says:

      @Proud Cybernat says: 4 December, 2017 at 3:45 pm:

      “How can Federalism even remotely work in the UK when one of its constituent parts is around 10 times larger than the next largest constituent part?”

      Oh! It works just fine for Henry and his other unionist pals in the three Britnat unionist parties. You have to realise that they all see the so called, “United Kingdom”, as also both, “Britain”, and, “England”. It’s just different names for the same entity is all.

      To them that means the country, or indeed the kingdom of Scotland is just another remote region of Britain/England/United Kingdom. A bit like, perhaps, East Anglia, Yorkshire or Northumberland.

      Just as long as it is The Westminster Establishment that is in overall charge of those English/British/United Kingdom devolved regions it is all right by Henry and his Blue/Red/Yellow unionist pals.

    26. call me dave says:

      Jings! Mrs May what’s she like eh!

      Nicola wants more as do Wales and there’s wee Gibraltar jumping up and down at the back too!

      You couldn’t make this up… and she never told the DUP she was going to do it either.

      Bulk order of pop-corn arriving from Pound land. It’s great the sweet & salty one.

    27. call me dave says:


      Pound slips down since the DUP comment ‘no surrender’news.

    28. Dr Jim says:

      How does one say, if we don’t get what we demand we’ll blow things and people up without actually saying it

      The DUP manage it

      The English government are paying attention to the DUP saying it, the EU are paying attention to the DUP saying it, “journalists” are paying attention to the DUP saying it

      Everybody’s paying attention to the DUP saying it and they’re all using the same phrase when they say it

      “Unique circumstances” when what they’re actually saying is violence or the threat of it makes everybody pay attention so while everybody skirts around the subject by not saying it they’re actually justifying the fact that violence works or we wouldn’t be having a problem would we

      What was the UK governments well used phrase again
      “We don’t negotiate with terrorists”
      Well yes they damn well do and they do it every day and even pay them to be such in some countries

      They just paid the DUP over a Billion quid didn’t they

      The competent UK negotiation strategy always comes down to the cheque book in the end so it looks like Scotland might be “promised” a huge cheque and more “Powaahs” which will never ever be delivered (shocker) if we shut up and let us, the UK, bribe you Jockies into silence on referendums and the like then blame you for causing a deficit later

      Rule Brutannia

    29. Nana says:


      Foster pulling the strings.

      Hearing it was the DUP call that sunk today’s chances of a deal – Foster held her press conf, 20 mins later May leaves talks with Juncker to call her, goes back into the room and the deal is off

    30. geeo says:

      So…support for independence has went UP but support for the SNP has gone DOWN …!!

      On one hand, that seems a tad conficted.

      On the other hand, does that mean that more previous No voters are moving to independence ?

      When you have to start your article by boasting that Survation were the only polling company to call the 2017 GE…..your credibility is shot to shit.

      Since there is no chance of a Holyrood Election BEFORE the next indyref, and a mandate cannot be won nor lost anywhere else, lets have an indyref and see who supports what.

    31. Thepnr says:

      @call me dave

      What’s she like indeed!

      Stonewall fact, she’s like the most incompetent Prime Minister that the UK has ever had to suffer.

      That’s what she’s like and she surrounds herself with those just like her. Totally incompetent Ministers into the bargain, just look at Johnson, Davies and Gove.

      She can’t have long now, her days are numbered for certain.

    32. Petra says:

      C’mon folks. Taking it that there are around 4 million on the Electoral roll in Scotland now and we need another 4% (at least), that equates to 160,000 people.

      If there are around 300,000? people visiting this site get out there and ‘convert’ one person each. That’s all it’ll take. We CAN do it.

    33. Petra says:

      @ Dr Jim says at 4:46 pm …. ”How does one say, if we don’t get what we demand we’ll blow things and people up without actually saying it. The DUP manage it

      The English government are paying attention to the DUP saying it, the EU are paying attention to the DUP saying it, “journalists” are paying attention to the DUP saying it

      Everybody’s paying attention to the DUP saying it and they’re all using the same phrase when they say it

      “Unique circumstances” when what they’re actually saying is violence or the threat of it makes everybody pay attention so while everybody skirts around the subject by not saying it they’re actually justifying the fact that violence works or we wouldn’t be having a problem would we

      What was the UK governments well used phrase again “We don’t negotiate with terrorists” Well yes they damn well do and they do it every day and even pay them to be such in some countries

      They just paid the DUP over a Billion quid didn’t they

      The competent UK negotiation strategy always comes down to the cheque book in the end so it looks like Scotland might be “promised” a huge cheque and more “Powaahs” which will never ever be delivered (shocker) if we shut up and let us, the UK, bribe you Jockies into silence on referendums and the like then blame you for causing a deficit later. Rule Brutannia.”

      Spot on Dr Jim. The toxic DUP is now extremely influential and still positively dangerous. In light of that, I’d like to add to my last post about attempting to ‘convert’ one person each. If you know of any people who are Roman Catholic and who voted No last time round inform them of the DUP’s influence over Westminster, and therefore over us, and tell them about the DUP ‘dark money.’ I’ve been doing this recently and it seems to be working. Get down to the Church gates / Roman Catholic agencies with your informative DUP banners, lol.

    34. heedtracker says:

      Crash Gordo’s cheerleading the Spanish fascists, shouldn’t come as that much of a shock. Crash, Blair etc have wrought havoc across the planet, why stop now…

    35. Robert Peffers says:

      Quite frankly I think it has become more and more likely that the stark choice is between real democracy and civil war – and I sincerely hope real democracy is the electorate’s choice for the alternative does not bear thinking about.

    36. Meg merrilees says:

      ONLY 20 minutes left to get the donations in for YES East Ayrshire SHOP. We need £640.00

      Don’t let the DUP and their OO friends win the day – help support Indy 2 please donate.

    37. Robert Graham says:

      Eh Question and I know it’s off Topic

      Are the DUP acutely in receipt of Mrs Mayhems Cheque .

      I thought that the bung was dependent on formation or re conforming the NI Administration and some sort of aggrement on power sharing in place.

      Looks like Mayhems worked a classic pitch and switch con , now you see it now you don’t , as ever never take your eye off the ball when dealing with a Tory.

      How’s your evening going Arlene ? , your mp Sammy Wilson looked like he was having a fit earlier on , I haven’t seen a coupon that red for some time, tell him to calm down that can’t be good for him

    38. Nana says:


      Taoiseach, Tánaiste and Minister McEntee – Brexit Press Briefing

    39. Andy-B says:

      It looks like the DUP are trying to put the kybosh on May’s tentative Irish border deal.

      “Arlene Foster says DUP will not accept Brexit ‘divergence which separates Northern Ireland from rest of UK’.”

    40. geeo says:

      The way that Foster and co go on, anyone would think that Northern Ireland voted Leave…

    41. Petra says:

      I wonder how the phone call between Foster and May went? Something along the lines of, if you concede to the RoI you’ll have to concede to Scotland, because the Scots won’t put up with it. Especially that 62%. You’ll no get our backing either to push your bills through, so you and your party will be over and out. You’ll go down in history as the woman who broke up the Union, Treeza. Think about it.

      Treeza between a rock and a hard place. Hard or sea border, Treeza? Take your pick and open the box, but look out as either way there’s a rat trap in all of the boxes. Good enough for you.

    42. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The Scotsman: ‘Henry, can we use your federalism article?’
      McLeish: ‘What? Again?’
      The Scotsman: ‘This’ll be the last time. Maybe. And, we can only pay you in kind. A box of Space Raiders and a half bottle of Grants.’
      McLeish: ‘Aye, okay then.’

    43. crazycat says:

      Re: Yes East Ayrshire fundraiser

      That’s it officially ended – £1500 from 51 supporters, 75% of our target.

      Immense thanks to everyone who donated and/or spread the word; that’s a huge boost to our funds, especially given that we’d somewhat stalled before today.

      I know fundraisers often have a last-minute spurt, so I won’t attribute every donation made today to Wings, but I’m certain you made a massive difference.

      Thanks again, and please do come and see us; we’re aiming to be open every day, but timings haven’t been finalized. I’ll provide details when I get them.

    44. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Thanks to the incompetent British Nationalist Tories and her majesty useless opposition even daft folk are moving towards independence.

      There is no other option now.

      Is it just me or does it appear that the Ulster Unionists seem to be chewing wasps when speaking ?

      Wasps geddit.

    45. heedtracker says:

      One for the archives, stinky olde The Graun really laying it on thick for the triumphant return of Kez, who only went to OZ to change politics.

      Whatever you say about yoon culture, its got a very brass neck.

    46. Pacman says:

      Federalism in a UK context can only work if England is broken up into component parts the equal size of the other home nations.

      I doubt very things the English Labour party members will buy into that considering their normal heartlands have deserted them in droves for UKIP and a resurgent jingoistic Brexit Tory party.

      As usual, Scottish Labour members can spout whatever they want about constitutional issues but they are only a wee part of a whole with the majority have conflicting interests. Like every other policy, they promise the moon on a stick knowing full well that they can never deliver it.

    47. Nana says:

      First Minister comments on latest negotiations.

    48. Hamish100 says:

      If May was willing to give NI efta style arrangements this would be to the economic detriment of Scotland

      Is this agreeable to the Tory branch office tank commander? The tu labour branch office? Wullie re…. whits his name?

      Do they put Scotland behind England, NI interests?

      I think we should be told.

      As for May — she can say to the DUP that Irish language is ok and Stormont is back up and running with or without them.

    49. geeo says:

      Love it..

      Joanna Cherry just told Ian Murray to stop saying “uk single market” as it is a “UNITARY market”.

    50. shug says:

      It is interesting that Ireland looks like getting special status while Scotland will be out in the cold

      I can hardly believe that independence is still only at 47%. How stupid are the Scots

      They really do deserve all that is coming to them

      They are sheep about to be shorn!!

    51. North chiel says:

      Is it now time for another “ smoke-filled room deal” between the Tory Cabal and the DUP ??

    52. One_Scot says:

      Junker says May is ‘a difficult negotiator’, which is his polite way of saying, ‘she is a bloody idiot’.

      Seriously, if anyone in Scotland thought it was a good idea to stick with May and leave the EU, today is one hell of a wake up call.

    53. Dr Jim @4.46 pm.
      Scotland is teetering towards a big dollop of ‘unique circumstances’ if we let May and Co drag us out of the EU on the back of a weird bunch of 10 fundamental Christians who believe that Eve was made from one of Adam’s ribs..literally.
      I mean they really believe that.
      God help us all, wherever she is.

    54. HandandShrimp says:

      The latest gyrations of the Brexit negotiations certainly seem to have put the cat amongst the pigeons. The Yoons of a Brexity disposition in particular appear to be, not to put too fine a point on it, absolutely beelin.

      It is particularly apposite that the Survation poll today had Remain up at 68%.

      We live in interesting times.

    55. Daisy Walker says:

      So, if I can take the time to think out loud here, the DUP – in the face of a Northern Irish majority vote to Remain, and without a GE majority – want full UK Brexit. Wonder if they’ve got some personal taxes to hide from EU legislation, like some of their English compadres.

      None of the parties North or South will countenance a Hard Border in Ireland. This creates a customs border issue, which is a problem for the whole of the EU market.

      And the DUP think they can bully the whole of the EU (Including S Ireland) into doing what they want, regardless of any voter majority…. and all because they have leverage over TM’s shoogely government, which doesn’t have a voting majority…

      And some very worried employees in Aircraft manufacturing in N Ireland, must be tearing their hair out at the moment and cursing the day Arlene was born.

      People in N Ireland on both sides of the Tin Flute must be raging.

      And then, didn’t TM manage to vote through some Henry the 8th Powers just recently… hmmm, wonder if she can use them now and if so, does she still need the DUP? Plus they haven’t had their bung yet have they. Oh dear.

      I don’t think the lovely Arlene’s position is as strong as she thinks. Wonder if some James Bond types are forming a plan, even as we speak, and intend to make it look like the IRA.

      So then, if the UK Gov, get past this little upset, and get a Sea Border – that’ll mean major investment in Border Control Posts at UK ports… bet they don’t build any in Scotland.

      Right just now, I bet Southern Ireland are looking at the great big trading void in Europe that will be present, particularly for Agriculture, when the UK leaves, and is getting ready to fill it.

      Can’t get your quota of Welsh Lamb… try our Irish.

      And while all this is going on, the Scottish Government produced a plan, they did a risk assessment, they have a consistent policy to limit job losses and keep the economy on an even keel. What a marked contrast with the UK Gov. No wonder Ruthie’s gone to bunker.

      And while all this is going on Henry Macleish talks Federalism. Macleish is a Fanny.

    56. Robert Graham says:

      And tonight’s dramatic story is ? Well I notice a clip in the background of a BBC actor outside a hospital, looks like Livingston, so I guess the health services in Scotland are getting the dramatic catastrophic coverage tonight . Oops now a cop must be going through the whole cycle tonight , if I see a school the TVs oot the windy ,oh hell it Moray Council and their Tory leader not that he will be identified as a Tory , we can’t have Ruthie mob being implicated with the Tory government down south, you know that bunch that are actually chopping and cutting everything .

    57. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I like this from Nicola Sturgeon’s remarks on the Brexit negotiations today

      “Today’s developments also demonstrate in the clearest possible way, through the role played by the Irish Government at the top table in Europe, the importance of being independent when it comes to defending your vital national interests.

    58. Thepnr says:

      Ian Dunt of puts forward his reasoning for why May is toast no matter what she does now after today’s latest Brexit negotiating shambles.

      @One Scot

      Junker says May is ‘a difficult negotiator’ PMSL

    59. jfngw says:

      Surely the fact the the DUP has rejected the deal is irrelevant, the offer has been made to one part of the UK therefore it is not impossible as was stated by the UK government earlier. No matter what the outcome for NI I expect the same deal to be offered to Scotland & Wales.

    60. Dan Huil says:

      John McTernan says it’s 100% certain that the Republic of Ireland will soon rejoin the united kingdom. He says it’s only the SNP who are stopping them at the moment. Something to do with bridges apparently.

    61. Robert Graham says:

      After today’s events i wonder if any of the spineless tory b/rds in mayhem’s cabinet have got the guts to stick the Knife in and put the poor soul out of her misery , or will it be a collective knifing by unknown assassins .
      Arlene put that down . she only called you a hacket *u*t dont take it personally , it could have been worse .

    62. Thepnr says:

      The EU single market is the catch all that covers the “four freedoms”. The main principles of the EU that guarantee the free movement of goods, capital, services, and labour. You can’t have one without the other. If you wan’t to remain in the single market then you accept free movement of Labour as well as well as goods services and capital.

      The customs union is very different from the single market and for example the EU has had a customs union with Turkey since 1995.

      If NI is giving leave to remain in the customs union AND the single market it effectively becomes the 28th member of the EU and consequently will have erected a “hard border” between itself and the UK mainland.

      Will this ever happen?

      Highly unlikely I’d think, or for sure Scotland will be demanding the same deal. The Tories have truly made a total arse of these negotiations and have done since the very beginning. Not surprising looking at the calibre of politician making the decisions.

      BRB Just nipping out to the shops now, have eaten all the popcorn.

    63. Robert Graham says:

      What’s the most dramatic tear jerking thing moray Council can do to attract public attention, shut schools , sack teachers, cut off street lights ,make most Council employees redundant, something so dramatic it hits the headlines, they already have the BBC on side all they need is something really special that other Unionist councils can copy , a weapon Unionists can adopt that deflects any flack from them and directly to the SNP , all this while never mentioning Tory – Labour – liberal administrations are acutely in charge .

    64. cearc says:

      There was me thinking that even the comedy on R4’s shite these days and then I listened to PM today…….

      The comedy slot used to 18.30 not 17.00,

    65. scottieDog says:

      Interestingly iceland (rightly) imposed capital controls as it stimulated it’s economy after the financial crisis. Europe seemed to turn a blind eye.

    66. Bob Mack says:

      Ha ha ha ha STRONG ha ha ha ha AND ha ha ha ha STABLE.

      Help me somebody please!!!!

    67. Tam the Bam. says:

      Woops! Sorry about that.

      I have just sat through Ross Thomson’s stream of vitriol directed at the SNP.Not since my schooldays have I felt the almost overwhelming urge to rearrange someone’s dentition.

    68. ronnie anderson says:

      Bob Mack Strong & Stable & the FIve Bar Gate L o L .

    69. Support for Independence rising,

      even through all the full scale anti SNP war waged by BBC/STV and the gutter press,

      Nicola and SNP doing it the right way,as Aesop said “Slow and steady wins the race”

      lots of calls from Indy folk for premature referendums that would have put us back a generation,

      think even these doubters on this blog must see and get fully behind the strategy of Nicola and the SNP.

    70. Gary45% says:

      “We all know” Brexit is going to be the biggest calamity that has hit the UK for generations past, present and future.
      The main instigator Nigel “I’m only making plans for Nigel” has the brass neck to claim a pension from an employer that he referred to as basically a waste of space.
      If Brexiteers cannot open their eyes and see the blatant hypocrisy from this parasite then hell mend them.

      Robert Graham@7.59
      The answer is YERs.
      You will hear them screaming if wee get the forecasted cold snap that’s coming. If Moe-ray don’t grit the pavements etc for them. HEADLINE SNP BAAADD

    71. Tam the Bam. says:

      What is it with Ross Thomsons mad…mad….MANIC EYES!!!

    72. Scott says:

      David Duguid MP for Banff&Buchan. TORY
      Just heard this MP what a waste of space how the hell did people vote this fool.
      As for Thomson words fail me

    73. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Potential Cokeheid or Murphys Glue Bag?? @Tam the Bam says at 8:42 pm

    74. dakk says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker says:
      4 December, 2017 at 8:49 pm
      Potential Cokeheid or Murphys Glue Bag?

      Not sure,but a Cockheid undoubtedly.

    75. One_Scot says:

      Jeez, can you imagine if Theresa May was your lawyer, you would just ask the Judge what time’s lights out.

    76. Mike d says:

      My mother in laws neighbours (staunch tories) have just sold their ex 3 bedroom council house outside rickmansworh Herts, for £435.000 which they paid £20.000 for over 30 yrs ago. They are moving to join their daughter and family in Scotland. Two more yer’s for you Scotland. Hurry up with indy ref2, the clock is ticking.

    77. Alasdair Macdonald says:

      Mr McLeish’s target audience is not those of us who support independence, but, principally, the Labour Party and its voters. In order to achieve independence, we require some of these members and voters to change and they are more likely to listen to a message from ‘one of their own’, like Mr McLeish, than to pro-independence supporters.

      So, if Mr McLeish can shift some people from THE UNION FOREVER position then there is a chance that some might go the whole hog.

      The Scottish Government has never refused any powers that have been on offer, recognising that gradualism does bring about changes. Federalism, as it operates in many parts of Europe and North America, locates significant and difficult to reverse powers with the ‘local’ governments, provinces or, indeed, nations.

      David Cameron and his unionist acolytes explicitly ruled out ‘Devo Max’ as a ballot paper option to force people to make a polarised choice. And, late in the campaign we had the now-infamous “VOW”.

      So, let us not be too condemnatory of Mr McLeish.

    78. North chiel says:

      With the polls showing rising support for Independence and the impasse
      over Ireland will the establishment “ reserve government” now get off the fence and
      decide to stay in single market& customs union?, simoultaneously the Federal UK drivel will move up the agenda . Spring GE anyone??

    79. John H. says:

      Brexiteers phoning in to Nigel Farage’s show tonight, convinced that todays events are all a part of T. May’s master plan for a hard brexit, or a clean brexit as Farage prefers to call it. Deluded fools.

      Theresa May… master plan. Ha ha ha.

    80. Petra says:

      I must say that I was delighted with STV’s news coverage of the Brexit negotiations at 6PM. They basically said that it was a done deal until Theresa May received a phone call from Arlene Foster, as she was having her lunch with Jean-Claude Juncker.

      ”Frantic phone calls then went back and forwards between Brussels and Belfast.”

      What a bl**dy embarrassment for May! Can you imagine it. All smiles across the table at Juncker, run to the phone, then return to the table like a cowed schoolkid and say ”the deal’s off.”

      They then showed Arlene marching down stairs (akin to the goose-step) with her toxic cabal and outlining her demands. STV highlighting that the DUP is a real ‘baddy’, calling the shots, in effect blackmailing ‘week and unstable’ Prime Minister May. I’m just hoping that the news report was a real eye-opener for the ‘unenlightened’ in Scotland.


      ”Within 20 minutes, Ms May interrupted her talks with Jean-Claude Juncker, the EU Commission President, to telephone Ms Foster. When she went back to the lunch, the deal was off….”

      ”…..What galls me most is hearing the DUP saying that they want the same rules as the rest of the UK – if they believed, that they would have acted on same sex marriage and abortion but yet, they won’t. Maybe more public cash will now be sent across the Irish Sea to keep the DUP happy.”


      ‘Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp: Brexit deal will have big impact on indyref2.’

      ‘’Let’s ignore for a moment that UK voters were promised £350 million a week for the NHS, not a £50bn bill for a worse trade relationship, an end to grants, border controls, a weakening pound and soaring inflation. Let’s also gloss over that Scotland’s population percentage share of the £50bn is £4.25bn which will be removed from Scotland’s budget over roughly 10 years, and that the 2014 No campaign told us we couldn’t afford independence because Scotland’s transition to independence costs would range from £600m to £1.5bn over a decade. Its official, independence is roughly £3bn cheaper for Scotland than leaving the EU…….’’

      ‘’Brexiteers don’t understand that modern independence in an interconnected and interdependent global economy has changed dramatically from when Britannia ruled the waves. Modern independence doesn’t involve separation or isolation. Such old fashioned views on sovereignty are now a practical impossibility. There was a clue during the Scottish independence referendum when British Unionist No campaigners kept saying: “You want to keep the borders open, maintain trade between Scotland and the rest of the UK and EU and share some resources, even the currency – that’s not real independence.”

      Yes it is. Ask the Germans or the Belgians or the Swedes if they stopped being independent when they joined the single market? The Danes and the Swedes also refused the euro, demonstrating that the EU is not sovereign. Therefore, leaving it is not becoming independent, it is simply exiting a highly effective single market, customs union and powerful political power base. Arguably, nations have more sovereignty in the EU than out, as the EU is more powerful than any one nation and you benefit from greater shared influence. The very fact that the UK chose leave demonstrates that the UK remained completely sovereign within the EU. ….’’

    81. geeo says:

      Oh the games they play, the folly of fools, the twisted knots they tie.
      Who shall untangle this folly of fools, not you, for sure, not I.

      Just think, if only Cameron had listened to the SNP
      proposal that ALL 4 countries had a veto on Brexit…all this could have been avoided.

      Our wonderful SNP SG, the ONLY party with a clue as to what they want/are doing.

    82. Thepnr says:

      If you missed the news reports on today’s Brexit stushie since you don’t watch live TV then here’s a nice summary from C4 just up online.

    83. geeo says:

      This talk about Federalism (Yawn) again is completely “oh look a squirrel” material.

      There are currently plans for boundary changes, which are supposed to make constituences similair sized per population. Like a ‘federal’ sort of set up.

      Labour are apparently all for federalism…yet vehemently oppose the proposed “federal style” boundary changes…!!

      All over the place.

    84. wull2 says:

      You don’t have to vote for the SNP to vote YES.

    85. Jock McDonnell says:

      Hee Hee
      The UK single market – holed by the tories 🙂

    86. Tam the Bam. says:

      North Chiel …9-02pm
      I think there is every possibility of a Spring GE.Accepting it happens…who’s up for declaring ‘A majority of seats at Westminster is a declaration of Independence’…as was once mooted.It would save the time and expense of a 2nd Indyref.My thoughts are Spring 2018 is too early.Support for Indy is on an upward curve and this being the case 2019 is my choice.

    87. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “Cockheid” aye definitely @dakk says at 8:58 pm, PMSL 🙂

    88. Rock says:

      “On today’s news that support for independence is back up to 47%”

      Hopefully Nicola will soon feel brave enough to utter the “i” word again.

    89. Gonny no dae that says:

      Every day its getting nearer…………. Alba will have its freedom

    90. Tam the Bam. says:

      Rock 10pm

      Rock….do us all a favour and take a long walk off a short pier.

    91. Sinky says:

      SNP, third largest party at Westminster, silenced by BBC National TV news on to-day’s EU developments.

    92. geeo says:

      Indy support at 47%….

      Aye, sure thing…

      Hunners o’ polls to judge huh ?

      Nope, just the one, not been one for ages before this one either.

      How many commissioned polls not being made public ?

      As for 47%, after 5 years of SNP BAD and pure anti indy propaganda, our starting position is within the margin of error of winning indyref2…

      I will take that, 5.1% swing to yes = independence, or just another few votes from those who didn’t vote last time….

      Game is on.

    93. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Here’s yer next Tory Leader Rees-Mogg signing off on pure mad batshit mental Leave means Leave groups letter to the Weak and Wobbly Maybot (prior to DUP “No Surrender to the EU” statement today.

      These fuds really do think it is the Victorian Age and Bwitain is still a Gweat World Power.

    94. heedtracker says:

      Truly dreadful bias BBC r4 10pm news right now on latest Teresa catastrofucks. No UK gov tory will even talk to their pet beeb r4 gimps, so they leave out what actually happened, hint at what might have happened and then monster a Labour sap. No voice from Scotland whatsoever, as per, I mean.

    95. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Not sure which is the more reliable/predictable – the time when Rock signs-on for the evening, or the time when someone tells him to fuck off.

    96. Welsh Sion says:

      Off topic.

      Indicative of the usual Anglo mentality of arrogance: Example 427.

      Once the teams had been assigned to their respective groups in the 2018 football World Cup, commentators immediately identified Ingerlund’s group as being an “easy” one and plotted that country’s progress to the Final itself.

      I can only say that their group is “easy”, coz … they didn’t draw Iceland in their group 😉

      C’mon, ABE!

    97. Bobp says:

      Tam the bam 9.54pm. I’m with you on this one.”A majority of SNP seats at the next election, Is a declaration of independence “. That’ll be more democratic than any rigged referendums by those cheating barstewards in westmonster. And those that dont like it can get a train at Glasgow central.

    98. Muscleguy says:

      It wasn’t the EU it was the Council of Europe which put pressure on the UK as ‘the most centralised country in Europe’.

    99. Calum McKay says:

      Devolution can not with stand the compound pressures of brexit, austerity, unionism, tories and westminster.

      The similarities of unionism in Scotland and Northern Ireland are striking, both would sabotage a good deal if it varied from a uk bad deal. union means more to them than the health and prosperity of their people.

      Nicola needs to keep her powder dry, but at the ready as events may move very quickly and unexpectedly!

    100. galamcennalath says:

      ” … explosive question. It is no longer whether Northern Ireland will leave the EU on the same terms as the rest of the UK. It is whether the rest of the UK will now leave the EU on the same terms as Northern Ireland. Given what seems to have been conceded, there is only one way for Northern Ireland not to have a special status – and that is for all the UK to remain in the customs union.

      The hard Brexiters like to see themselves also as hard unionists. But these two positions have just become radically incompatible. “

      Glad someone is pointing out the obvious!

      The really big surprise is that some folks seem surprised by this.

    101. galamcennalath says:

      Calum McKay says:

      [The] union means more to them than the health and prosperity of their people.

      Yes, proof is proof were ever needed that Unionism is a mad irrational cult whose adherents suspend all humanity to stand by their warped loyalty.

    102. Jock McDonnell says:

      @ galamcennalath
      indeed, much on the news about UK leaving on soft terms, which of course they are paying €50 billion for – nuts

    103. Dan Huil says:

      So one rabid British nationalist party [DUP] scuppers another rabid British nationalist party [Tory] over the level of rabid British nationalism which they wish to pursue.

      The Republic of Ireland has every reason to be angry.

    104. stewartb says:

      “… let us not be too condemnatory of Mr McLeish.”

      Oh I am only too happy to be “condemnatory”!

      He is adopting a view that acknowledges, at least by implication, that the current Union falls short of what is good for Scotland. He does so having the benefit of knowing just how Westminster acted following the ‘Vow’ in 2014 – did Gordon Brown and Labour not tell us in 2014 that the Vow would deliver ‘the nearest thing to federalism’? And (for an experienced politician) he must surely realise that there is something close to certainty that the Westminster establishment is incapable of radical (and honest) constitutional reform of benefit to Scotland any time soon – if ever.

      So this man, time-after-time, perches on the head of the pin that in the search for some fanciful constitutional compromise. Too little and too late.

      For me, independence is for much more than any UK federal structure can deliver for Scotland – no Trident on the Clyde; no more seeking to ‘punch above our weight’ through aggressive, militaristic (and failed) foreign policies; Scotland choosing its own international alliances; and always getting a government that Scotland votes for to control ALL the many matters that other small and medium sized independent countries such as Norway, Denmark, New Zealand etc. take for granted.

      And even if this fantasy federalism did come to pass, should the Kingdom of Scotland, regardless of its historic constitutional status and its distinctive legal, educational and health systems, accept a ‘generous’ Westminster gift of a federal status equivalent to the Manchester or Birmingham city regions or the East Midlands region? Not acceptable to me!

      But there is more to consider here. The more complex the constitutional proposition – like federalism – the scope for Scotland to be screwed again by a duplicitous Westminster ‘system’ is huge. I no longer trust the Westminster establishment and its apologists. Keep it (relatively) simple – independence.

    105. Hamish100 says:

      So the majority of remainers in Northern Ireland are silent, invisible. BBC, SKY, ITV and Channel 4 ignore them all for they don’t count. Only the sash wearing no surrender brigade are worthy of a voice and to be listened too.. they speak for all northern Irish it appears.

      As for Scotland……. who? Watched a bit of the debate with the snivelling Tory ukip Tories representing us the tell us.

      Even watching on the tele I felt I had to wash my hands later such is their Brit nat bile. The colony of Scotland should just shut up. A most obnoxious bunch.

    106. Phronesis says:

      Scotland’s divergence with some and convergence with others will paradoxically lead to Scotland’s independence. Finally, a Gordian Knot that is disentangled.

    107. Thepnr says:

      What happens now?

      Do the DUP leadership get on a plane in Belfast tomorrow for tea and scones in Downing Street sitting around a table and trying to find the right words that will satisfy Ireland and the DUP hardliners.

      Something like that seems to be the plan if the talks between EU/UK are to resume on Wednesday and an acceptable deal found.

      The main problem with this is what about all the other players such as Scotland, wales and London, will their representatives be having scones and tea too? We can be certain that the answer to that is NO, so no matter what words can be conjured up that might be acceptable to Ireland any deal along the lines proposed today can only bring new additional problems for May and the Tories.

      Putting aside those I’ve just mentioned what of the hard Brexiteers such as those named in the link to the letter by Jockanese Wind Talker at 10:23? This “leave means leave” are not going to take to kindly to any deal on top of the £50 billion divorce deal.

      Any agreement reached before the end of the week is sure to be a fudge that just won’t last, can’t wait to see the whole house of cards come tumbling down with May landing in a heap at the bottom under Gove and Johnson.

      The more strife for them, then the better the chances of an Independent Scotland. Rubs hands with glee at the thought 🙂

    108. heedtracker says:

      Graun late show, omfuckingG it is just staggering that this is how it works, the future of all our lives and this is how planet toryboy goes about it all,

      “Confidence early on Monday that an agreement was within reach came to nothing when, during a working lunch with the European commission president, Jean Claude Juncker, May was forced to pause discussions to take a call from Arlene Foster.

      The unionist leader, whose party currently provides the Tories with a working majority in the Commons, told the British prime minister that she could not support Downing Street’s planned commitment to keep Northern Ireland aligned with EU laws.”

      Forced to take a call, is beyond bizarre. No wonder beeb Scotland gimps are keeping Colonel Ruth hidden.

    109. boris says:

      The Trump Putin investigation is opening doors allowing sleuths access to information that cross references providing clues to the intricate world of the richest 1%. It is torturous but well worth it.

    110. Thepnr says:

      BBC panicking, now trying to explain how impartial it is.

      Not worth reading but worth glancing at to get a sense of their fear that they’re losing it. Trust that is.

    111. manandboy says:

      Unelected DUP leader stops Brexit.

      All week and all weekend the EU and the UK are locked in negotiations over the Irish open border after which they agree on a form of words.
      All those at the political top table would be informed of this before May and Juncker sat down for lunch.
      Meanwhile the world’s media have been briefed about an agreement. And yet the DUP are not told even though as it turns out, they have the power to stop the agreement. Then during lunch the unelected Arlene Foster phones Theresa May and puts a stop to it all. It doesn’t add up.
      I for one refuse to believe it.

      But then I also refuse to believe that Theresa May’s Tory Party paid the DUP £1.5 billion for ten votes which were as good as theirs anyway. It doesn’t add up.

      It appears as if the DUP have a headlock on the British Government.

    112. meg merrilees says:

      Of course, by sticking to the awkward, no, downright pig-headed stance, Arlene could be about to wheedle several more billions from Theresa May over toasted tea-cakes and a cuppa tomorrow.

      Unbelievable turn of events today – Arlene Foster, who by her stubborn refusal to stand down when accused of bringing the N.Ireland government to its knees with her corrupt heating scam; who has refused to compromise over the Stormont situation in any way, leaving N.Ireland effectively ungoverned for 6 months and in danger of causing direct rule – probably a deliberate ploy-now finds herself the most dangerous woman in the UK tonight; the real deal maker, totally selfish and wants there to be no difference between N.Ireland and the rUK but won’t allow same sex marriage or abortion – double standards.
      She’s a hard woman! No surrender.

      So ‘our’ Theresa is between a rock and a hard place. If she decides to push through the original deal, she loses the support of the DUP and her certain majority but also risks Scotland, London and Wales asking for a similar opt-in to the single market ( and possibly Gibraltar). Brexit may go ahead but the UK government ultimately collapses owing to Tory rebels and the DUP refusing to support her.

      If she goes along with Arlene, she alienates the EU, Ireland, creates a hard border and wrecks the Good Friday Agreement, Brexit collapses and possibly with it, the UK government.

      2018 is going to be a momentous year, but 2017 has some surprises yet!

      Very interesting to read the various newspaper headlines for tomorrow. Several blame the DUP for breaking the deal but the Daily Heil talks about paedophiles; the Express and Star think it’s more important to tell us that an Arctic blast is on its way – in winter– and that the EU talks stall but May battles on, whilst the Sun says that Downing Street blames the Taoiseach.

      Meanwhile, how many squirrels can (t)Ruthless talk about at FMQ’s this week?

    113. Meg merrilees says:


      The BBC is absolutely BRILLIANT at talking the talk and producing some of the most amazing mission statements, briefing documents etc.. but it appalling at putting those guidelines into practice.
      Ultimately programme content is decided by humans and humans are fallible.

    114. geeo says:

      Couple points…

      1. Will Ruth Davidson be foind in time for Thursday’s FMQ’s ?

      2. Does oor Rev think 2018 will be as dull as 2017…? (LOL)

    115. Petra says:

      @ boris says at 12:53 am …. ”The Trump Putin investigation is opening doors allowing sleuths access to information that cross references providing clues to the intricate world of the richest 1%. It is torturous but well worth it.”

      Thanks Boris. What an article Boris. There’s some amount of work gone into that! I didn’t start to read it until just after 2:00am. I’ve basically skimmed through it but will read it again tomorrow.

      Worrying that Mifsud has been teaching at Stirling University (or has he?).

      ”Most recently a Stirling University spokesman confirmed Mifsud is employed as a professorial teaching fellow, since May 2017. But no-one can recall ever being taught by him. The University magazine The Brig is investigating the scandal and it’s published articles reveal a catalogue of intrigue worthy of a James Bond movie.”



      And is she a relative?

    116. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Remember back at the UKGE 2015 when the electorate were told that the SNP “tail” couldn’t possibly be allowed to wag the English “dog”?

      These days the SNP remains the third largest party in WM, but we see Arleen’s puny stub of a tail shaking May’s bulldog all over the shop, and yet no Tory is making even a peep about it (at least in public).

      Funny old world that the various tribes of BritNat inhabit, isn’t it?

    117. Dr Jim says:

      Work has gone on into the night on the NI border issue and we have a result, the DUP has finally agreed to the border being in Scotland at Gretna Green with an alternate West coast one at Stranraer

      Arlene Foster and the DUP to take seats in Holyrood as well as anywhere else in the England land they choose plus another few quid to keep them voting

      Arlene Foster said the opportunity to bring the Godless Scots the real message of her Christianity was a worthwhile endeavour plus the SNP must be silenced for the benefit of all England

    118. Meg merrilees says:

      Dr Jim

      I would just LOVE it if the DUP stormed out of WM only bump into Sinn Fein at Heathrow flying into England to take up their seats at the table….
      I know it won’t happen but we can fantasise!!!

      I see from the Rev’s twitter feed that Humza Yousaf has said: ” Good progress on snagging work to the QFC. It will open at 6.00 am Tuesday” ( ONE DAY EARLIER than projected)

      Expect it to be headline news on all media stations in the morning and also to be the main subject of a congratulatory Call Kay with an ‘e’…. Aye right!

    119. Meg merrilees says:

      Looks like the ScottishTories have voted with the UK government to support the WM power grab and ride rough shod over the devolution settlements by helping to defeat the various amendments tabled tonight trying to protect devolution and the ability of the devolved Parliament and Assemblies to legislate for their own areas.

      Wonder how that will go down with the fishermen and farmers of the N East

      Everything is beginning to line up amidst all this chaos – Indy ref2 might not be that far away now.


      I think we need a ‘Cairnstoon’ of a minuscule Theresa May popping her head out of Arlene’s jacket-pocket

    120. Petra says:

      If I didn’t detest Westminster, et al, so much I’d actually be feeling sorry for Treeza May right now. What a position to be in! Laughingstock of Europe no doubt and going down the stank rapidly in the UK. However, I’m just hoping that she’ll hang on in there, continue with the fiasco, because I reckon that we’ll lose more seats at Westminster if they decide to hold another Election.

      We don’t seem to be hearing too much from the NIrish that voted to remain in the EU. Can anyone from that part of the World give us an update?

      Nothing from Queenie’s quarters either. I wonder what she makes of the Great British Empire that she inherited heading towards total decimation? Left rattling around Buckie in the Kingdom of poor, wee, stupid, isolated Engerland with less money in her purse.

      Whatever the case, happy days are on the way for us, folks, with a meagre 160,000 people left to convert now. And yes we can do it.

    121. Nana says:

      Tory MPs just voted down key #Brexit amendments that would have protected the devolution settlement and stopped the Westminster power grab.


    122. Nana says:

      Investment firm part-owned by top Tory under police investigation over fraud allegations

      Ep. 553: John Pilger Special – NATO Wars, Nelson Mandela and Mainstream Journalism

    123. ScottieDog says:

      One to watch about the city of London- especially for your no-voting friends..

    124. Macart says:


      Hope you’re keeping well Nana and good to see you this morning. I’d hoped you would be about today given the constitutional stinker dropped by the DUP in the PMs lap yesterday.

      Clock’s ticking. 🙂

    125. Nana says:


      I’m doing ok Sam, thank you for asking. I took a few days off for my birthday, a wee break does us all good now and then.

      Geezo where to even start re what calls itself a government. Strong and stable, lol

      @Capella, while I remember I hope you had a smashing birthday!

    126. ScottieDog says:

      I’m quite curious to see how Corbin would have handled all of this. He’s watching from the sidelines laughing but what would he have done I wonder?

      One things for sure the press would be absolutely gutting him.

    127. Macart says:


      Twenty one again. 🙂

    128. Nana says:


      How did you guess?

    129. David Caledonia says:


    130. starlaw says:

      The DUP have publicly humiliated the UK on the world stage.
      retribution will follow sure as night is day. The Tories don’t do taking one on the chin.

    131. louis.b.argyll says:

      Devolution is not good enough to serve as Scotland’s default national status.

      We’re at our best when we’re either acting as cannon fodder in foreign wars, or completely independent.

      We give TORY elitism, home county expansionisn, too much respect.

    132. heedtracker says:

      Great coffee time links Nana! BBC r4 vote tory Today show with Nic Robinson and his creepy wheezy crisis, what crisis vote tory propaganda just signed off. Beeb r4’s tory crew haven’t worked like this since the last week of 2014 Scots indy ref campaign.

      What ever we may think about 21st century tory bbc attack propaganda, Nic Robinson and the gang will never tolerate a non tory Scots voice and view, on their national news progs, ever.

      Has anyone seen or heard from Colonel Ruth yet:D

    133. Ken500 says:

      The Tory 13 just stopped powers coming back to Scotland. How can people vote for them in Scotland? Most of them are not fit for public office. Lying hypocrites. Another Tory councillor not paying their council tax.

      Corbyn does not want the poison chalice. Or is playing the waiting game. Labour etc could have voted May and the Tories down.

      The DUP minority in NI now the focus. Corruption.

      A GE soon? What a mess.

    134. heedtracker says:

      Labour are extremely awful today. Another catastrofuck Blair, Brown, Darling legacy.

      Nicola Sturgeon
      7 mins ·
      This could be the moment for opposition and soft Brexit/remain Tories to force a different, less damaging approach – keep the UK in the single market and customs union. But it needs Labour to get its act together. How about it Jeremy Corbyn?

    135. Labour will contort and distort any argument to suit their own agenda.

      As for the idea of Henry Mcleish, possibly coming round to support independence don’t believe it!
      You only have to look at how he is now pushing federalism.

      He was my MP, and I for one don’t trust him even a 1mm.

    136. heedtracker says:

      As our imperial masters plot to strip Holyrood down to nothing much at all asap, blocking indy ref2 also helps their union cause too. Scots are being so unfair.

      on March 9, 2017 in Brussels, Belgium Getty Images
      Theresa May has ramped-up her criticism of Nicola Sturgeon and accused her of trying to force a “fundamentally unfair” Scottish independence referendum.”

    137. heedtracker says:

      Funny. But who did this tory dickhead not call vote tory Today show wise? UK zone’s 3rd biggest party. Why would he.

      Nick Robinson?Verified account
      2h2 hours ago

      Calling all those complaining that their party is not on @BBCr4today today : the DUP, Tory & Labour press offices asked their spokespeople not to appear

    138. j.denham says:

      Talking about public humiliation as a citizen of the so called United Kingdom, can anyone out there give me information as to how many countries within our continent of Europe find the necessity to operate foodbanks, and feed their children from charitable donations? Our own situation is indeed humiliating.

    139. Capella says:

      @ Nana – yes thx I had a lovely time and, like you, have been coasting a bit before the Christmas panic starts.
      Glad you’re back on the links though because this is one roller coaster with BREXIT. Blink and you’ve missed a crisis. But another one will be along in a minute.

      Ruth has emerged from her bunker. Humza Yousaf tweets her statement on siding with Westminster against the interests of Scotland.

    140. call me dave says:

      Ruthie taking the DUP line this morning and her miserable 13 vote to hand over returning powers to WM last night.

      Thanks for the links. A tour de force!

    141. heedtracker says:

      Other news what the BBC gimp network Today flagship radio 4 tories did not want to report Today style.

      Why would the greatest newsman of the age Nic Robinson not report any of this? it is mystery, not just because BBC is one of the Trump administrations greatest cheerleaders. And Orange Hitler’s son in law is also in the frame.

    142. jfngw says:

      Will the UK honour any agreements they sign, after all they are taking back control of elements of the devolution settlement which they legislated for. They are willing to run roughshod over the devolved parliaments when it suits them. They want to roll back devolution to the point that it is meaningless.

      Remember Scotland is currently being punished for not voting for unionist parties, abetted by broadcast media who are wiping Scottish opinion from our screens (unless it is a Ruth Davidson comment).

    143. cearc says:

      Boris, 12.53,

      That is some substantial piece of work, thanks.

    144. heedtracker says:

      Ruth has emerged from her bunker. Humza Yousaf tweets her statement on siding with Westminster against the interests of Scotland”

      I thought Colonel Ruth tweet says Colonel Ruth backs the DUP, Capella.

      Career first with Colonel Ruth, always career first.

    145. heedtracker says:

      I thought Colonel Ruth tweet says Colonel Ruth backs the DUP, Capella.

      Colonel Ruth pronouncement says stuff like, “no tory gov should countenance any Brexit deal that risks this lovely and wonderful UK.”

      Only 24 hours behind the times but English and Scots high tory creeps will love that.

      Colonel Ruth for Prime Minister, of the UK, if it still exists.

    146. Greannach says:

      heedtracker @ 10:12

      I agree with you that with Colonel Rape Clause it’s always career first, but am I the only one who now thinks her future is in the past?

      The media north and south of the Border encouraged her star to shine brightly, but she didn’t seem to realise that in England (HIGNFY) she was just a passing novelty like Rusty Lee or The Green Goddess. And her previous career was hardly earth-shattering.

      Jacob Rees-Mogg is now being touted around as the voice of the future. Poor flip-flop Mrs Harrison’s days in the sun are over.

    147. Clydebuilt says:

      David Cowan Chief Reporter at STV interviews Retd head of Civil Engineering if he is a member of the SNP. Because he said snagging works on a project the size and complexity of the Queens Ferry Crossing are perfectly normal

    148. heedtracker says:

      But then Colonel Ruth says, Colonel Ruth wants all sides to agree to NO border with Ireland too. And she also says there should be a “friction less” Northern Ireland/Ireland border aswell.

      A frictionless border that is not a border, but is a border, with no friction.

      Colonel Ruth is so wise and clever. I for one really hope she becomes Prime Minister of teamGB very very soon.

    149. Breeks says:

      Is there anything May hasn’t caved in about? – No! No! No! Oh all right then.

      I have never hated England, well maybe once or twice listening to their sports commentary, but in the real world, I have English friends and I’ve spent time in England, and England has such potential to be truly great place if only the English could purge their exceptionalism from their National psyche.

      But this Brexit, I mean from its inception to this point of international humiliation and economic disaster, it is like the dark manifesto of everything nasty and bad about England. I cannot bring to mind any campaign or political dynamic so narrow, insular, xenophobic, myopic and catastrophically misjudged as Brexit. Even the “up” side, the perceived deliverance, is a delusional throwback to a vicious 19th Century Imperialsm which has no future or friend in the modern world.

      In terms of argument, Brexit has no substance beyond hollow sound bites and guttural prejudices.
      In term of leadership, Brexit has no heroes, just spivs, liars, U-turners, charlatans and opportunists.
      In terms of debate, it’s case is made by the rabid BBC bias and vile hatespeak in UK newspapers.
      In terms of self delusion, a pro Brexit argument is tacit admission you haven’t read the small print.
      In term of reputation, well, how blind and insensitive do you actually have to be before you cannot see the whole world is laughing at you?

      The Devil might have all the best tunes, but Brexit is marching along to the Birdy song.

      Brexit isn’t an argument, it’s a malevolent spell or black art incantation that has worked it’s way into the heads of the Brexiteers, and has robbed them all of their wits.

      But what I genuinely don’t understand is the lack of cohesion and hope to physically confront and contest Brexit. It seems the same spell that inspires the nutters and fruit loops to march for Brexit makes all the decent, good people of England go home, lock all the doors and close the curtains. The sickening thing about that is they expect things to get better and settle down, but only after all the foreigners have gone and the poor have stopped starving. Brexit is a realignment which they all want but are too uncomfortable or cowardly to acknowledge.

      Brexit really has nothing. It doesn’t even have a worthwhile opposition. Brexit is a pernicious mental depression to which most of England has succumbed. They have thought themselves into a frame of mind they cannot think themselves out of.

    150. Capella says:

      @ heedtracker – oops, you’re right – siding with Arlene against the interests of Scotland while, last night, her 13 Tory MPs sided with Westminster against the interests of Scotland.

      Detecting a theme here.

    151. Breeks says:

      Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

      Explaining her position in The Times, Ms May wrote that another vote (IndyRef) “is not something to which any responsible government could reasonably agree”…

      A responsible government??? Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

      Fecking priceless.

    152. heedtracker says:

      Detecting a theme here

      She’s a sneaky old thing isn’t she, Colonel Ruth. And ofcourse Colonel Ruth has the great luxury of a fawning BBC Scotland led media too.

      Colonel Ruth says,

      We must have a UK wide border with the EU.

      And, we must also have a frictionless border with the EU.

      What’s that then Colonel Ruth? asks no one in our relentlessly ghastly meeja.

    153. Bob Mack says:

      Rather than accept any advice from those untrustworthy Scots, the Westminster cabal plough on relentlessly from disaster to disaster. They are blinded by hatred of the best politician on these islands.

      Time for cool heads, diplomacy and deep thought. I wonder if they have the ability to see that Nicola is offering everybody a solution that would allow respite and time for further contemplation. I hope so, but I fear not.

      They forget we are actually all in it together for the moment, and if one suffers we all suffer. Any politician who puts party dogma ahead of the good of the nation as a whole at this time is not worth their salt.

    154. liz says:

      There is a way round the Yers, have a 5 year minimum,living working,accepting benefits in Scotland limit.

      That will exclude transient students, who have their own reasons for voting No,loss of free education and receint influx of old Tories taking advantage of our superior NHS etc

    155. David Caledonia says:

      There once was a young lady called Ruth
      She has sided with one called the mooth
      She was thrown out of the jungle
      She looks like a bungle
      And she and the mooth are uncouth

      Yours Sincerely

      Rabbi Burns

    156. David Caledonia says:

      It’s getting better all the time
      It’s getting better every day
      It’s getting better all the time
      But it’s been a bad month for the may

      Yours sincerely

      The Beatles

    157. Dr Jim says:

      England, the only country in the Western world where the refugees are on the beaches trying to get out and much of the population are on their way but the trains are delayed. what’s left are waiting in line for the foodbanks and the ones who are staying are billionaire Tories having to pour their own champers

    158. heedtracker says:

      David Caledonia

      Kez was in the jungle. Although I didn’t watch it. Colonel Ruth may well be the next politico entrant on, “I’m a Nobody Get Me Out of Here,” and give me my ££££ too, anything is possible with the yoons of teamGB.

    159. call me dave says:

      Hark The Herald:

      Ruthie on Brexit.

    160. David Caledonia says:


      I only watched the bits where ruthie baby was on, she said she was there to promote labour to younger voters, if promoting being a twit was her aim, she certainly pulled that one off lol

    161. Nana says:

      Expecting Mike Russell to answer an urgent question on the latest Brexit ructions at Holyrood this afternoon. Here’s a flavour of his feelings on the matter:

      For anyone who missed Ronnie Cowan’s speech yesterday on the EU withdrawal bill. Here it is.
      Watch and share

      Patchwork Brexit, Soft Brexit, No Brexit?

    162. Bob Mack says:

      Any pronouncement yet from Kenneth Williams lookalike and soundalike Richard Leonard of Slab.

      What a palaver. ? tonight, and infamy, infamy, they’ve all got it infamy.

    163. call me dave says:

      O/T but interesting for older readers.

      Scotland boasts lowest levels of poverty in the UK

      It must be true it’s in the Herald.

    164. geeo says:

      Vince Cable just STATED that…

      “There is clearly a Unionist majority in MN.Ireland..eeerr..Scotland, and that seems to be growing…”

      Completely unchallenged of course.

      SNP/GREENS are a NON UNIONIST majority at Holyrood and SNP won an 11 seat majority over the 3 Unionists at WM GE last i looked…!!

    165. heedtracker says:

      David Caledonia says:
      5 December, 2017 at 12:27 pm

      I only watched the bits where ruthie baby was on,

      Ruthie babes was on though? only dafty girl Kez shurely:D

      I didn’t watch any of it, too embarrassed for Kez, SLabour, Kez’s cheerleaders, kez’s parents, creepy old Severin Carrell o The Graun trying to sell it as a yoon triumph, the future of SLabour in Scotland and so on.

      When they come to write the astonishing disappearance of SLabour from Scotland, after 70+ years of SLabour domination of Scotland, Kez in the Jungle, for a quick buck, will be the last chapter.

    166. Effijy says:

      Henry McLeish, a Former Labour 1st Minister who didn’t understand that he couldn’t just pocket money for renting out a section of his government funded offices.

      Unlike common people who would be charged with fraud, it seems Henry got to keep the money, resigned the Ministerial Roll and pocket circa £50,000 per annum from a Tax payer funded pension.
      All this for only 18 months of corruption.

      The DUP, the Party keeping the Tories in power.
      The party who record the leaders signing about hating Catholics,
      the Party who propose that the earth is only 4,000 years old,
      the party who insist that Dinosaurs never existed, and the party who has given £millions away to their friends and family through the corrupt Bio Fuels subsidy.

      How can you be surprised at this Mob demanding that Westminster continues to give them money for nothing?

      Disturbed Unionist Protestants. DUP.

    167. geeo says:

      Oops…not sure where that ‘M’ came from…N.Ireland not MN.Ireland..

    168. Mike d says:

      Liz 11.38am. Agree with this. Let’s hope it’s implemented before indy ref2.

    169. call me dave says:

      OK… So Ruthie says that a single market deal should apply across the whole UK and not just to a part of it.

      If that were to come about (Aye right) and Scotland gets that deal what are the implications for Indy2 ?

    170. heedtracker says:

      Nana says:
      5 December, 2017 at 12:30 pm
      Expecting Mike Russell to answer an urgent question on the latest Brexit ructions at Holyrood this afternoon. Here’s a flavour of his feelings on the matter:

      Wow, Russell is not holding back now. About time too. Question is, Teresa and co probably are considering a UK wide Remain in the EU customs union?

      Is it their only way out, Ulstermen are not exactly flexible no matter how much money Teresa offers them.

    171. TheWasp says:

      FFS,the usual bigging up of colonel tRuthless and a catalogue of lies about Scotland on daily politics

    172. Dr Jim says:

      Whoever you are you live in Scotland:

      The BBCs answer as to why SNP politicians are not invited on the telly as much as other parties is because they are not a UK party and do not represent the UK as a whole

      Ooo Kaay? and the DUP are what exactly?
      Or UKIP who have no HOC elected representatives at all are eh?

      So the fact that Scotlands MPs are in the HOC doesn’t count to the BBC or that Scotlands government is run by a party that is acknowledged by the English parliament still doesn’t count to the BBC as a legitimate reason to invite them to take part in most political programming begs the obvious question, does the BBC only recognise Unionist politicians from anywhere on any subject as long as they don’t represent the SNP or indeed Scotland except if they’re Unionist

      And yet there are people in Scotland who still find this not only acceptable but preferable and don’t recognise that what they’re being told is Scotland will never count as long as you don’t behave in the way the English government tell you and that devolution is a big fat lie, in that no matter who Scotland elects as a government the English government is always in charge so voting is only important as long as you vote for us

      Remember when Nicola Sturgeon said vote for the SNP to get our voices heard at Westminster and we did, well the whole of the English establishment went into coalition overdrive to silence those voices then they had the temerity to even tell us the SNP will never count here in our English Land

      The will of the Scottish people has to be the English will or it NEVER counts
      This is what England thinks about you, what do you think about that?

      You still undecided? Don’t care? Can’t be bothered?

    173. @Effijy
      5 December, 2017 at 12:44 pm

      What you say is all true about Mcleish.
      As I said he was my MP, I remember him long before the expenses scandal broke.

      He tried to con his constituents when he issued a press statement in my local newspapers giving the impression he hadn’t known about the extension of vat to standing charges.

      And he was going to get vat removed from the standing charges.

      After I had my letter published in response to his press statement, we heard no more from him on the subject of vat on standing charges.

      He had gotten the publicity he sought for himself and had given people the impression he was looking after their interests and that’s all that mattered.

    174. Jack Murphy says:

      If Ruth Davidson MSP had ANY influence in Westminster through her 13 Tory MPs she could put Theresa May under as much pressure as the DUP has done.

      Her 13 MPs demonstrated last night she has NO INFLUENCE in Westminster

      SHE AND HER 13 MPs COULD PLACE THE UK GOVERNMENT OVER A BARREL but she is FIRST and ALWAYS a British Nationalist at any price!

      The sooner Davidson and her MPs are OUT the better for all of us in Scotland.

    175. Thepnr says:

      Theresa May couldn’t get Arlene Foster to Number 10 today so instead she has had a visit from Mariano Rajoy.

      Wonder what the pair of them had talks about?

    176. One_Scot says:

      Does anyone remember The Sting with Paul Newman and Robert Redford.

      Lets’s just suppose that May is Newman, and Foster is Redford. And let us imagine that this whole fiasco is an elaborate set up by the two of them, where May looks to have done everything she possibly could to get an agreement with the EU, but the dastardly Foster scuppered her plans right at the death.

      Brexit negotiation predictably collapse and the UK leaves with no deal, avoiding having to pay a 60 Billion divorce settlement. Foster gets a 2 Billion bung and rides off into the sunset. No!

    177. heedtracker says:

      Colonel Ruth and Herald tories, monstering FM Sturgeon, with the great rolling tory Brexit catastrofuck.

      If we had actual journos, instead of sleezy creep propagandists, we might get an actual explanation of what Colonel Ruth is talking about,

      “While I recognise the complexity of the current negotiations, no government of the Conservative and Unionist Party should countenance any deal that compromises the political, economic or constitutional integrity of the United Kingdom.

      “All sides agree there should be no return to the borders of the past between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

      “Similarly, jeopardising the UK’s own internal market is in no-one’s interest.

      “If regulatory alignment in a number of specific areas is the requirement for a frictionless border, then the Prime Minister should conclude this must be on a UK-wide basis.”


      Are we in the EU or out, for the rest of our teamGB tory ruled lives.

    178. heedtracker says:

      Are we in the EU or out, for the rest of our teamGB tory ruled lives.

      Rolling The Graun, we’re staying in the EU, well our laws, goods, services, trade are staying European but we humans are no longer EU citizens.

      Cleared up that, Colonel Ruth is a genius, sooth sayer, next UKOK PM.

      Politics live with Andrew Sparrow
      David Davis suggests regulatory alignment plan to apply to whole of UK, not just NI – Politics live
      Rolling coverage of the day’s political developments as they happen, including Theresa May’s attempt to salvage a Brexit deal after it was rejected by the DUP

    179. Thepnr says:

      Looks like Arlene Foster was asked to meet with May at Downing Street today but declined to attend.

      Arlene Foster has ruled out flying to London on Tuesday for crisis talks with the Prime Minister, according to reports…

      The Telegraph quotes a DUP source as saying they did not think “it would be productive” for the DUP leader to make the trip, and she would go over “when they are close to agreeing something”.

      Something very fishy going on? Big bolt from the blue in coming days maybe.

    180. Robert Graham says:

      o/t as usual
      A few people mention last nights Tory 13 in the house of ill repute.
      Eh what happened ? Anyone throw any light on the subject.

    181. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Bob Mack Anna Soubry this morning on sky ( adam boulton ) said that Nicola Sturgeon was right .

    182. admiral says:

      Thepnr says:
      5 December, 2017 at 1:54 pm
      Theresa May couldn’t get Arlene Foster to Number 10 today so instead she has had a visit from Mariano Rajoy.
      Wonder what the pair of them had talks about?

      Be interesting if Rajoy maintains solidarity with the Irish Republic and demands the same deal for Gibraltar. LOL

    183. Thepnr says:

      @Robert Graham

      From the National

      May’s Scottish Tory ‘poodles’ are slammed in ‘devolution day’ debate on Brexit Bill

    184. admiral says:

      call me dave says:
      5 December, 2017 at 1:05 pm
      OK… So Ruthie says that a single market deal should apply across the whole UK and not just to a part of it.
      If that were to come about (Aye right) and Scotland gets that deal what are the implications for Indy2 ?

      She’s probably already preparing her next flip flop to a hard Brexit, ‘cos that might get her the gig in an English safe Tory seat.

    185. Les Wilson says:

      One_Scot says:

      And there was me just thinking, this is engineered to put another Billion£ into the DUP pocket by Arlene.

      While similar, I think your idea may be nearer the truth.

    186. Thepnr says:

      Remaining in the single market means accepting the “four freedoms” of the EU including Free movement of Labour.

      Can’t see that going down well with the rabid rightwing press and 17 million leave voters. That’s the UK wanting to have their cake and eat it again.

    187. Petra says:

      Great news on ITV in relation to Diabetes Type 2 … ”a watershed moment” they say (Glasgow University) with a diet that has reversed the condition in 50% of patients involved in the trial. Wha’s like us? Fantastic news for millions of people around the world.


      @ ScottieDog says at 7:51 am …. ”Petra, I’m quite curious to see how Corbin would have handled all of this. He’s watching from the sidelines laughing but what would he have done I wonder? One things for sure the press would be absolutely gutting him.”

      Totally agree with you SD. Corbyn et al are being let off of the hook. It’s high time that Corbyn and Leonard were pinned down and demands were made to establish how they’d deal with the hard Brexit that they seem to support. How much money they’d be willing to fork out re. the divorce bill and more than anything what they would do about the Irish situation. It’s imperative that we know especially as another Election could be looming with brainwashed Scots seeing Corbyn as the Messiah. And while we’re at it get Leonard to outline his stance on Trident and fracking.


      @ Mike d says at 12:50 pm …. ”Liz 11.38am. Agree with this. Let’s hope it’s implemented before indy ref2.”

      Yeah I wholeheartedly agree with you too Liz. A residency restriction of at least five years should be in place. I’d go even further but don’t want to bring the place down. If we get beaten once again by ‘foreign’ students, 2nd home owners, BritNat ‘freebie’ relocaters and the ‘on a wee 6 week holiday’ crew, I’ll crack up. If it were to happen in fact (which it won’t) I’ll be relocating. We should also have a similar system to NIreland, as posted on her recently by someone?, in relation to postal votes. Bring the stats down from 20% to 2%. Ensure that we hold exit polls. Absolutely crucial. Have the country flooded with International observers. Bring in the Polish electoral team that monitors the Media for 6 months prior to the vote and I’d also be taking a closer look at the Electoral Commission. More than anything raise the money, through this site and the SNP, to get the truth out there to combat the Unionists that are backed by millionaires / billionaires … and dark money too, no doubt.


      ‘Extracting the positives for Scottish Government from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation report on Poverty which you are unlikely to hear of elsewhere: Lower poverty, better qualified workers, lower domestic violence, smaller educational gaps and eating just as much fruit!’

    188. heedtracker says:

      Something very fishy going on? Big bolt from the blue in coming days maybe.”

      Teresa quits, gov collapse, snap GE 2?

    189. admiral says:

      heedtracker says:
      5 December, 2017 at 2:54 pm
      Something very fishy going on? Big bolt from the blue in coming days maybe.”
      Teresa quits, gov collapse, snap GE 2?

      National emergency, government of “national unity” T May, J Rees-Mogg, A Foster, K Hooey, N Farage in cabinet, P Dacre becomes government communications director.

    190. Robert Graham says:

      Thepnr .
      Many thanks for the link, I tend to skim over anything the 13 do down there, I never expect anything from them, and yet again I wasn’t disappointed, makes you wonder who they represent,
      The part time ref is really a nasty f/kr let’s hope his part of England he appears to represent are at the bottom of any and all lists for any assistance from Holyrood .

    191. Legerwood says:

      Petra @ 2.54 pm

      The story about the Joseph Rowntree report was covered in some detail in the Herald today which was a bit of a surprise to say the least. Mentioned all the positives – more in work, training etc,; better qualified; mitigation of bedroom tax etc.

      Full half page 2.

    192. bjsalba says:


      ‘DUP-ed’, ‘May humiliated’: How UK papers reacted to the last-minute block on Irish border deal

      Interesting to view UK papers with Irish eyes

    193. John H. says:

      Petra and Mike d

      I totally agree that the residency rules should be tightened up. Though I’m not sure if we can change the rules on our own. We probably can’t change the postal voting system without permission. Westminster might be mad, but they’re not completely stupid.

    194. heedtracker says:

      National emergency, government of “national unity” T May, J Rees-Mogg, A Foster, K Hooey, N Farage in cabinet, P Dacre becomes government communications director.

      Anything is possible, in this farce UK. And all Scots are mere by-standers too.

      Teresa may have no choice but to quit now. She didn’t even tell the DUP about her deal, they say they only got a letter while it was all in progress yesterday morning.

      This is really bad, beyond bad, she cant go on like this much longer. A fair media here would now be calling for Teresa to go. You can bet her own backbench roasters are.

      Get ready for snap GE 2. How many soft and new tory Scottish seats are too weak for the beeb Scotland gimp network to save?


    195. Petra says:

      @ heedtracker says at 2:54 pm …. ”Something very fishy going on? Big bolt from the blue in coming days maybe.” Teresa quits, gov collapse, snap GE 2?”

      One wonders if Arlene Foster and her DUP cabal have more of a hold over Westminster than just propping them up and their billion pound bung. Do they know about sleazy, corrupt military, and otherwise, goings-on in particular during the time of the troubles?


      And this is for anyone who’s interested in Marjorie Orr’s take on the May / Foster situation. And just to add that although Nicola’s birthday is close to Arlene Foster’s their astrological charts don’t equate.

      If you don’t want to click on the link this is the bottom line for her:

      …”Foster’s relationship chart with the UK is worsening dramatically through 2018/19 with tr Neptune in hard aspect to a composite T Square of Pluto opposition Mars square Jupiter; and tr Saturn square the composite Sun by 2019. Not good chemistry to start with and tr Neptune is turning bad feelings into a festering swamp of unpopularity…”

    196. Petra says:

      Is Corbyn listening? The 62% of Scots who voted to remain in the EU want to know.

      ‘Nicola Sturgeon calls out Corbyn on Twitter: Get it together and fight a hard Brexit with me.’


      And could the BBC pin Ruth Davidson down in an attempt to ascertain if she supports Scotland being in or out of the EU?

      ‘RUTH Davidson has “close to zero credibility” when it comes to Brexit, according to a spokesman for Nicola Sturgeon.

      Following a statement from Ruth Davidson calling for any regulatory alignment under Brexit to be extended across the UK, the spokesman said that Davidson was “playing silly games”.

      He continued to say that her position on the EU was “wooly and ambiguous” and that Davidson “flip-flops on this issue constantly and has done since before the EU referendum”.

      He added: “She’s held every position under the sun on this. So her comments today should be taken in that context. And I’m not even sure what her comments mean. Maybe they’re designed deliberately to be woolly and ambiguous. Ruth Davidson is in danger of having close to zero credibility on this issue. If she’s got something to say, she should say it unambiguously and clearly. Does she believe Scotland should remain in the single market – yes or no? And stop playing silly games.”

      Davidson had issued a statement saying that the UK should not be divided by “different deals for different home nations” following a disasterous day for May.

      Talks with the EU ended abruptly without agreement on Monday after the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) made clear it would not accept any deal that saw Northern Ireland become seperated from the UK in any way.

      The Conservatives, who rely on the support of the DUP in Government, had been ready to guarantee “regulatory alignment” between Norther Ireland and the Republic in order to avoid a hard border.’

    197. Capella says:

      Richard Murphy has an excellent piece on regulatory alignment and the hypocricy of the DUP who are only British when they want to be.

    198. Breeks says:

      liz says:
      5 December, 2017 at 11:38 am
      There is a way round the Yers, have a 5 year minimum,living working,accepting benefits in Scotland limit.

      That will exclude transient students, who have their own reasons for voting No,loss of free education and receint influx of old Tories taking advantage of our superior NHS etc

      It’s the postal voting which I have greater misgivings about. 96% votes returned, and uniformally pro Union? I agree with Twathater, the voting returns ought to be celebrated as world record votes being returned and nobody even wants to draw any attention to the matter, and it’s all swept under the carpet. Move along! Nothing to see here. Davidson and McTernan both knew too much, too accurately, and to soon. It stinks of interference, and unless we get to the bottom of it, or at least make absolutely sure the method is altered to prevent the same thing happening again, then we can take nothing for granted.

      I never liked the Edinburgh Agreement either. I don’t like the idea of the Electoral Commission regulating the media. The Commission seems as useful as a chocolate teapot.

      Lastly, I still struggle to reconcile the AstroTurf nature of Unionism. How can they win the ballot when they couldn’t fill a venue, and had to bus in activists from other areas? It just doesn’t add up. I don’t recall any pro Union or anti independence rally or march. Compare that with Catalonia, where both sides can get big crowds into the streets. Better Together couldn’t fill a minibus.

      Granted, if No was predominantly the vote of the elderly then that goes some way to explain some of the result, but ironically, the grey vote won’t be dented by a 5 year rule of occupancy.

      Supposing you looked no further than the reactions of Better Together campaigners, it feels like Better Together somehow bought their result. It was rigged, or it was lucky. Even if you did have your suspicions in 2014, you just have to look at the Unionist’ blind terror of a second referendum. That “feels” like they got away with something in 2014 which they know will be very difficult to repeat. “We won, so whatever happens, we must be sure never to risk voting on it again”.

      I liked Rev Stu’s pinned quote on Twitter, which reminded Unionists all they had to do was vote No again.

    199. crazycat says:

      @ Petra

      I’ve read that standard procedure for exit polls is to compare a representative sample of polling stations with the results at those places at the previous election, and then to extrapolate.

      That could not be done in 2014 because there was no comparable referendum. Next time there will be, so it is important to press for exit polls to be conducted.

      If there is another way of doing exit polling, it is of course possible that it could have been done last time but wasn’t.

    200. Thepnr says:

      Good little article about how 3 of the most vocal Newspapers in their support of a hard Brexit were all very quiet today when it came to covering the story of yesterdays shambles.

      Trying to hide the main story from their front page were the Daily Express, Daily Mail and the Sun. Instead they wrote of squirrels.

    201. Scottish Steve says:

      What is this obsession with federalism? Federalism in the UK would not work because England would still dominate federal matters by sheer numbers alone. Unless they introduced a veto system in which a home nation had the ability to veto a law much like an EU state can.

      But hell would freeze over first before they’d allow any kind of parity of power in the UK.

    202. Greannach says:

      A woman in Lochcarron bought a roast chicken in Dingwall and brought it home.

      That’s an illustration of the the UK’s Single Market. Rule Britannia!

    203. manandboy says:

      From my recollection of IndyRef14, exit polls were ‘not allowed’ in the Edinburgh Agreement.
      Perhaps someone knows precisely the reason why no exit polls were conducted.

      Exit polls were most certainly used at the EU Referendum.

    204. Referendum1707 says:

      Seems to me to be blatantly obvious that something needs to be done about postal voting, 2nd home owners and transient students. Whether or not you think indyref1 was rigged it’s only common sense that measures are in place to prevent fraud, vote rigging and distortion of the vote by people who don’t even live here on a residency basis.

      As far as I can see the SNP isn’t taking this very seriously. I mean of course I don’t actually know but the lack of any statement or comment from them about it, perhaps just quietly announcing that various measures will be in place to secure an honest vote in the event of indyref2, has me thinking that perhaps they’re just assuming that WM wouldn’t risk it or something. I’d suggest that they would be being naive.

    205. Les Wilson says:

      In Indy2 we really must have honest International monitors in place. If we do not, somehow it will be rigged again.
      Postal votes the most avenue for them to do that.

      However, there is all the dark money and total propaganda even more than Indy1.

      Prior to Indy1 I contacted the SNP and said this, their reply was that monitors are a reserved matter, quite nice for the Unionist conspirators.

      This time, we should disregard the reserved issue and request respected monitors in. They will complain like hell, however they would need to be asked what would be their reason to object.

    206. Bobp says:

      Les wilson. Yes if postal voting isn’t properly regulated,And without international/European monitors, an indy ref2 will be a rigged event once again. The other problem will be the full might of Pravda ie BBC and brit media liars.

    207. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Les Wilson @ 17:20,

      There seems to be a whole lot of recirculating ignorance and misinformation about this whole issue, alas, as exemplified by your posting, Les.

      Any UK citizen can register to be an electoral observer, and consequently has a right to gain entry to all aspects of the electoral process. (Subject only to sufficient room being available!)

      Registration is also open to overseas observers with some further requirements being required. Last time I looked at the list of registered observers (which is freely accessible to all) there were some people from Ukraine registered, for example.

      So let’s drop this oft-repeated grumble, please: no-one needs to “request” anyone for monitors to be present. You just need to be organised and have the volunteers.

      Maybe getting hold of enough of the latter who are willing to give up their time to participate is the real difficulty.

    208. One_Scot says:

      ‘Any UK citizen can register to be an electoral observer, and consequently has a right to gain entry to all aspects of the electoral process. (Subject only to sufficient room being available!)’

      With the greatest of respect, I think I would rather have experienced people with a track record of covering such occasions rather than some random dude who fancies a day out.

    209. Les Wilson says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:

      In regards to why you would not want proper, International respected,and experienced monitors is rather hard to fathom.

      We need experienced people who’s job it is to ensure fairness, most people perhaps, do not know all the ways we can be cheated, subsequently things could be missed.
      Better of with experts who are aware of all the scams via their past experiences. Is something in my view that we really do need.

      We cannot trust Westminster not to compromise a vote with so much at stake for them, they will cheat us in ways we could not imagine. Hence the need for real International monitors.

      If you think that they will not cheat us, then I ask you to think again. Do you think they reserved monitors for the sake of democracy?

    210. Old Pete says:

      Davidson on STV talking out her arse as usual no doubt.

      What is wrong with the over 55` s with still over 70% against Scottish Independence. Are they stupid?, are they cowed? don’t they care about the future of Scotland and don’t they care about their descendents? I just don’t get it, why don’t they care.

    211. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      manandboy @ 16:53,

      The problem with exit polls in the context of a unique referendum goes deeper than the earlier-mentioned difficulty of a suitable previous comparator.

      If there is a large proportion of postal votes, and for any reason there is also significant skew among them (as there could well legitimately be with something like an indyref, due to the elderly and service personnel, for example), the exit poll will then necessarily be unrepresentative in the opposite direction, and give an incorrect impression that something dodgy happened with the postal votes. But there’s no way to determine whether that was the case or not.

      Personally, I reckon that what may be the real weakness of the electoral process is the issue of proper registration. A lot of time and effort is devoted to checking that the person voting by post is the same person who registered, so any loophole lies at the very beginning of the process.

      I worry that people can register too easily for local voting, which is the list that is also used for our indyrefs. Some of this is even specifically allowed (eg. students can double-register, both at home and away) but it may also be due to lax administration, depending as it does on the local authority overseeing the process in their area (subject to legal requirements).

    212. Dr Jim says:

      Nobody wants Independence in Scotland now, there’s no support for it except for a few hard line Jacobite night crawlers clacking away on their keyboards

      That’s us by the way, only the 47% of us that they’ll admit to in their rigged polls, so what’s the real number

      47% and that’s without a campaign being called yet

    213. Les Wilson says:

      I noted in last Indy when I voted I was only asked my address, which was subsequently ticked off on the sheet, no ID requested.

      I had read about cases where people went to vote and were told they had already voted.
      If that was the case then who used their address and how did they vote? Who put them up to it?

    214. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Les Wilson @ 18:05:

      In regards to why you would not want proper, international[ly] respected,and experienced monitors is rather hard to fathom.

      FFS. There was nothing I wrote that said or implied that at all. On the contrary, I was making it clear (to those who can read and inwardly digest, anyway, which may be part of the problem) that the process is already readily open to that.

    215. Ken500 says:

      It was reported there was no exit polls at the IndyRef because it was the first one, ie there was no previous IndyRef vote to make a comparison. Ie pointless.

    216. Ken500 says:

      Voting list have been tighter up. Registration in most authorities.

      People without ID would not be able to vote. No everyone has a passport or driving licence.

    217. @Les Wilson,

      I think Mr Sutherland seems to have a piece of his own `recirculating ignorance`,


      you have to apply to become an accredited electoral observer,

      you have no right to become an accredited electoral observer,

      Electoral Commission have the right to refuse your application,

      `We will notify applicants in writing whether we have accepted or rejected their application, and we will give reasons for any decision to reject an application`.

      The Electoral Commission web page for clarification,

    218. Dr Jim says:

      I can’t get out of Jury duty without a doctors note no matter what I’m doing
      Why should anybody get a postal vote without the same reason
      People died so we could get that right

      If you don’t care (about others opinions) you don’t get to share (yours) coz you can’t be bothered to turn up, there are too many exceptions allowances and excuses made for the lazy … It takes 5 minutes for God sake, with polling places everywhere (churches Schools Local halls) for your convenience

      Ooh I could crush a grape!

    219. PictAtRandom says:

      “The problem with exit polls in the context of a unique referendum goes deeper than the earlier-mentioned difficulty of a suitable previous comparator.

      If there is a large proportion of postal votes, and for any reason there is also significant skew among them (as there could well legitimately be with something like an indyref, due to the elderly and service personnel, for example), the exit poll will then necessarily be unrepresentative in the opposite direction”

      1. It would still add to the sum of human knowledge / political science (assuming that)
      2. people have never carried out general / constituency exit polls when there have been large postal votes

      So, while I’m here, and in the light of recent events, can I request a Yew Choob version of the St Etienne pan-European classic “(S)he’s on the phone”?

    220. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      RE: all the perceived problems surrounding indyref2. (Observers, exit polls, postal votes and so on.)

      Perchance this could be the solution.

      If, as has been suggested by many, the UK’s exit deal with the EU collapses to a “no deal” scenario, due to the Irish veto, or the DUP witholding support for the Tory government, then there could be a snap general election.

      The SNP could treat this as a “superelection” and stand on one principle: if the voters of Scotland return a majority of independence supporting MPs to the UK Parliament, then this will be taken as a mandate for the Scottish Parliament to take a vote on declaring the dissolution of The Treaty of Union; regained independence, in other words.

      It could also be made clear that, at least, the independence supporting MPs would not take their seats at Westminster. Rather, they could be used as a basis for an “Independence Council” or similar.

      No doubt other commentators here could add flesh to the bones.

    221. Les Wilson says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says

      Robert, fair you pointed out the issues that concern you.
      However, to me anyway, it comes across that you were making the case that we do not need monitors. Just volunteers.
      I have no issue with volunteers but they may have little or no experience in such matters, few of us have.

      As I pointed out is the fact that, there are many ways we can be cheated that makes a requirement for cheating us to be made much more difficult, by putting experienced bodies in place via International monitors.
      That would be a big plus not a negative to our winning.

    222. PictAtRandom says:

      Briandoonthetoon @ 6.33

      That could be a viable strategy at a particular GE — but beware the Cat Boyd / Jezza Moonbeam Factor when a rotten Tory govt. may be about to fall and there’s a rush of Blair = Bambi naivety.

    223. geeo says:

      Not promoting my own thinking here, anything but that, but if I was Theresa May *(shudder)*…I would cut the DUP loose right now and declare that I am running with a minority gov until Brexit is completed, and if that means a suspension of ‘other business’ then so be it.

      On the plus side, it solves the NI issue to an extent.

      With no stormont assembly, a Brexit deal such as the one which failed yesterday, can be imposed on N. Ireland, clear of the threat of Foster.

      Lets be brutally honest here, labour are no threat to brexit, as they are as divided as ever on the subject.

      All i am saying here, is that the tories make poor choices for themselves, all because “winning” or getting one over on folk is more important than doing the right thing.

      The current action by the tories is a surefire winner for turning folk here to Yes.

      May they keep up the good work…!

    224. ScottieDog says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon
      In actual fact, if there is a snap election I really can’t see the point in the SNP standing for anything else. For me a wishy washy manifesto would be pretty pointless.
      I’d be rolling our my own version of project fear – namely WTO tariffs and trump trade agreements.

      The way for labour to diffuse Indy would be to stand on SM & CU membership otherwise they offer little that is different to the tories. I also wonder in that regard if there could be yet another challenge to corbyn’s leadership?

      A general election DOES have exit polls and any departure from that would be highly suspicious. Still postal votes are vulnerable.

      Of course a snap GE does run the risk of not having quite the same amount of time to drum up the masses and get the vote out.

    225. geeo says:


      You make the point well.

      People think what you describe is a UDI, but the reality is, Scotland cannot really declare UDI.

      We are not breaking away from England/uk/whatever you call it, because we are not a region looking to break away to form a new country (like Catalonia), we are a country with a Sovereign people making a decision to simply end a political union of which we are, despite impressions elsewhere, an EQUAL PARTNER in that Union.

      And because the people are sovereign, such an announcement in advance would surely stand up as a legitimate defacto referendum.

      Even if we do not use this, it sends a message to them we will not take it.

    226. Hamish100 says:

      All May had to do was to say to the DUP ” .. bring the government down..” They wouldnt as it would likely mean more remain parties to gain at the expense of the Tories.

      It suits the DUP for a no deal. Their little sectarian brains want a hard Brexit.

      Has Davidson gone into hiding to make rock cakes? She knows how to hide when things ain’t good.
      Coward is the word.

    227. Breeks says:

      Les Wilson says:
      5 December, 2017 at 6:35 pm
      Robert J. Sutherland says

      Robert, fair you pointed out the issues that concern you.
      However, to me anyway, it comes across that you were making the case that we do not need monitors. Just volunteers.
      I have no issue with volunteers but they may have little or no experience in such matters, few of us have….

      The problem with volunteers, and indeed trained observers too, is the quality and consistency of training, knowing what to look out for, and knowing what to do when there is an issue of concern occurring. I remember a much younger me on guard patrol of an army base armed with a pickaxe handle, but it was pretty much left to my imagination what I was meant to do if I actually discovered a problem.

      If there is a general consensus that we should have observers, then they should all be properly briefed about their roll, and appropriate protocols necessary to flag up malpractice. As far as I know, there were accredited Russian observers at some polling stations. Maybe that accreditation should be much more extensive. The Russian observers incidentally said the 2014 referendum was badly flawed and did not meet international standards…See Voting Irregularities about 1/3 of the way down…

      The Russian concerns were swept aside, dismissed as stooges looking for grounds to discredit Western democracy. Kinda ironic no?

      How can you properly police the transportation of ballot boxes? When even that is a struggle, how can you properly or even possibly police the transportation of postal ballots to be sure they have not been tampered with?

      Maybe as a safeguard, postal voters should be given a PIN number to verify after the referendum that the vote they posted is the correct vote recorded…

      I’m no expert in this, not even well informed, but surely there are enough of us spread around the country to create “squads” of volunteers focussing on specific actions, and doing the same job with the same consistency from place to place. Maybe you are both correct; lots of volunteer observers, but volunteers trained to a recognised standard of professional volunteer accreditation.

      I forget who posted the link a few days ago, apologies whoever it was, but it was a disturbing read about the Postal Ballot… Surely this must never be allowed to happen again.

    228. stewartb says:

      Arguably a ‘gold standard’ in the independent monitoring of elections internationally is that established by the Carter Center.

      Its election monitoring is not just something that happens on polling day or just related to the casting of votes, crucially important as these are, but to relevant processes leading up to and after polling.


      Among a long list of notable ‘endorsing organisations’ given in the above document are:

      Commonwealth Secretariat
      Council of Europe
      European Commission
      European Network of Election Monitoring Organizations (ENEMO)
      Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe
      United Nations Secretariat.

      Properly independent monitoring of an IndyRef2 with the credibility and clout to call-out any problem issues and be heeded internationally needs a very ‘serious’ institution to be approached to undertake this task.

    229. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi PictAtRandom at 6:46 pm.

      You typed,
      “That could be a viable strategy at a particular GE — but beware the Cat Boyd / Jezza Moonbeam Factor when a rotten Tory govt. may be about to fall and there’s a rush of Blair = Bambi naivety.”

      You have a point. We have to keep an eye on latent Labour voters who moved to the SNP after indyref1. We have to keep them pro-indy.

      I feel that the SNP have been working on the currency situation so that should be a ‘no show’ for the opposition. Much else of “Project Fear” has been discredited. We have to bear in mind that 62% of us voted to remain in the EU and that percentage is rising.

      If only 40 odd % are saying that they would vote for the SNP, who are the other 25%+ who want to remain the EU?

      I accept the premise that around 25% of the Scottish electorate are staunch unionists and will never vote for independence. That leaves 75% to work on – and 65%+ are already on board.

      Divisions created by the Cat Boyd types should be slapped down at every opportunity. The principle is INDEPENDENCE – POLICY comes after that, when WE SCOTS get to vote for the policies put forward.

    230. ronnie anderson says:

      Its coming soon fur aw that Raise your Voice .

    231. AlbertaScot says:

      Amazing post on the Sinn Fein website where the lovely and fragrant Michelle O’Neill reveals that Mayhem made a pretty please phone call to here today.

      Michelle’s come back was its No Surrender on No Border.

      Then she told her that Arlene’s OOers can take a flying **** at a rolling dough-nut because DUP don’t speak for a majority of NI.

      This is just getting wilder and wilder.

      The Westminster Tories wooing Sinn Fein.

      Can you imagine the MSM spitstorm if Nik placed the same call.

    232. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Well Ronnie, if you’re gonna do that, I’m gonna offer the song of Team YES Bus.

    233. crazycat says:

      Here’s the Sinn Féin article mentioned by Alberta Scot, archived:

    234. Thepnr says:

      May will crack soon, the pressure must be absolutely huge. Another thing why does she always wear that big chain round her neck?

    235. Les Wilson says:

      stewartb says:

      I agree totally with your comment, particularly the last paragraph

      “Properly independent monitoring of an IndyRef2 with the credibility and clout to call-out any problem issues and be heeded internationally needs a very ‘serious’ institution to be approached to undertake this task.”

      Why do I agree? Because it is a very serious issue.

    236. Meg merrilees says:


      If T May cuts loose the DUP all well and good, but if she then implements the plan of keeping the ‘regulatory alignment’ i.e. no hard border between N and S Ireland and both in the SM and CU then the Union is kaput, because the devolved areas will want the same, including the City of London where the big money is..

      That’s why (t)Ruthless has come out of hiding with HER proposal that the whole UK could stay in the SM and CU.
      Headline news on BBC Scotland website, totally attributing all sensible solutions to Davidson – despite the fact that the SNP has been proposing it since Dec. 2016 and Nicola tweeted about it at 8.30 this morning.

      It has no credibility if comes from ‘oor Treesa’ -it will seem like a desperate last attempt – which it is.

      Truthfully there is no other solution which allows for ‘no hard border’, but if it comes from Colonel Blimp , the great white saviour, then Treesa lives to fight another day, the Union is saved, AGAIN, and the DUP would have to climb down but because it was Hobson’s choice, they too would save face. It’s a brilliant masterstroke – only one snag, it doesn’t suit the rabid Brexiteers at WM … but if it saves the Union… Hmmm!

      The Union is on its last legs – another reason why the RBS is pulling out of Scotland – move the assets out before Indy.

      What a farce – Brexit is the gift that just keeps giving.

      Did she really go begging to Sinn Fein today – WOW.

    237. crazycat says:

      @ Thepnr at 8.22

      Maybe it’s an Opus Dei garter, and she hasn’t realized it’s supposed to be hidden, and round her thigh.

    238. Thepnr says:

      @Meg merrilees

      Truthfully there is no other solution which allows for ‘no hard border’

      Not sure that this is true, isn’t a possible solution that NI is “allowed” an EFTA type deal and can make it’s own arrangements with the UK regarding trade and free movement?

      I’ll admit that I really don’t know if that is the case or not because this situation is certainly unique. Also of course if a constituent part of the UK could have such a solution why couldn’t Scotland?

      It obviously could, so between a rock and a hard place for May and Davies.

    239. Sandy says:

      Moray council pleading poverty. Anyone know their history. What have they wasted their money on? Is Moray a Tory enclave?
      How do they compare with other councils, Aberdeen and Shire excluded, of course. Is Moray the champion or just runner-up.

      Details welcomed.

      Facts welcomed.

    240. Meg merrilees says:

      Watch this interview with Mike Russell on Victoria Derbyshire discussing the Brexit mess with David Jones. It’s about 4 tweets down:

      Brilliant from Russell; Tory MP talking rubbish and Derbyshire showing BBC Bias – at the end, credits the Tory his title of Former Brexit Minister but instead of crediting Mike Russell Scottish Government Minister for Negotiations on Scotland’s Place in Europe, calls him Mike Russell ‘of the SNP ‘ – shameful disrespect.

    241. Gfaetheblock says:


      If RBS are pulling out of Scotland, are they also pulling out of England where they are closing more Natwest branches? Or has this nothing to do with politics, rather business?

    242. geeo says:

      @meg merrilees 8.27pm

      Completely agree re goodbye to the union, but lets face it, the union is pretty much toast anyway barring a series of highly unlikely, and probably impossible, events.

      After decades of convincing English voters they subsidise Scotland etc…if ANY WM party decide to save the union and give up on england’s precious precious Brexit, there would be utter hell to pay.

      Meanwhile in Scotland….we watch as our shares in popcorn makers goes through the roof…!!

    243. Meg merrilees says:

      Nick Robinson caught telling untruths – oh, yes he is!

      Humza Yousaf tweet:
      Ruth Davidson sides with DUP against the Prime Minister.

      Let that sink in. The leader of Tories in Scotland sides with DUP & specifically calls for Scotland *not* to get differentiated deal which would help our economy & businesses.

      She puts ideology ahead of Scottish interest.

      Robert Peston tweets:
      Pincer movement against May by @DUPleader and @RuthDavidsonMSP who have spoken twice today and agreed to support each other. Foster also receives support from PM of @GibraltarGov

      Anybody, read, hear or see anything in the Scottish Media about the Queensferry Crossing opening this morning, 24 hours earlier than scheduled – because it’s such an important crossing. Without it millions of businesses go under within minutes, so re-opening it must be vital news to Scots economy.

      Speak up?

      Thought not!

    244. Breeks says:

      Here is something for those of us with too much time on our hands…

    245. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I saw this hours ago and thought that SOMEBODY would have provided the link by now.

      But nobody has. Comments?

    246. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I saw this hours ago and thought that SOMEBODY would have provided the link by now.

      But nobody has. Comments?

    247. Meg merrilees says:


      they are pulling out Nat West branches in England agreed and that is a business decision – they want the company to be in profit/ less in debt when WM tries to sell it off over the next three years.

      BUT they promised Scotland in 2010 that if they were the only bank left in a town they would not pull out – England still has Barclays, Lloyds, TSB, HSBC etc..
      Plus they closed down about 180 in March this year already.
      It’s hard not to see a link to possible independence swaying some of these Scottish decisions.

      This is a Bank that is owned by the tax payer. Devastating for the Island of Barra, Bannockburn and many other Scottish town and communitiess targeted in this round of closures.
      In my area there will soon only be one RBS branch in Stirling and one in Falkirk and that will cover an area form Dollar to Doune and Kippen to Denny – massive. What do the old, disabled, young mums with children, shopkeepers and traders do then?

      The islanders on Barra will all have to take a ferry to the mainland to carry out their ‘offshore banking’.
      Can they bill the RBS for costs incurred travelling to a branch to access their money or pay in their takings.
      Ridiculous decision .

    248. Ian Brotherhood says:

      This is worth a read – how the DUP ‘think’:

    249. Robert Kerr says:

      Ruth and Murdo started the “Ulsterisation” of Scottish Politics.

      Now we see where that leads. So far!

      Be careful with your wishing.

    250. Meg merrilees says:


      You may well be right about the EFTA type deal but I can’t see Arlene wanting that either if it creates any difference between N.Ireland and the rUK. Arlene wants a hard Brexit and still thinks she is in charge in N. Ireland
      The tail wants to stay firmly attached to the dog.

    251. Thepnr says:

      @Meg merrilees

      I agree with you that there is no chance of an EFTA type deal happening for NI alone. I was just saying that it may have been a possible “practical” solution albeit one that nobody would likely accept other than Scotland maybe 🙂

    252. Thepnr says:

      Should also have said that without a solution we’re all up the swannee. Brexit with NO deal.

    253. Les Wilson says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Who instructed these polls? Can’t be coincidence?
      But I will comment “WOW”

      That is going to make the Yoons really lose the plot, yes even more than prior. or they might just pull the covers over their heads and shake uncontrollably!

    254. galamcennalath says:

      I am having difficulty deciding whether the Tories really are as astonishingly stupid as to not expect this backlash from NI’s über Unionists. It should have been predictable that the DUP would have opposed anything shifting NI away from the UK.

      Also, didn’t the Tories expect the reaction of the SNP too? If special deals are on the menu, we’ll have some of that!

      A conspiracy theorist might wonder if it’s all a grand plan to finally settle on a single market Norway solution. They can claim that everything else has been explored and only full single market membership protects their Union. A fundamental question has always been – what matters most to the Tories? Is it Brexit or maintaining their Union?

      Another conspiracy theorist might claim that we are seeing a quite different grand plan …. going to great lengths to prove that if the UK wants to take back control and curb immigration, this can only be done by a hard no deal cliff jump Brexit!

      Or maybe the Tories really are as thick as mince and without a scooby!

    255. Bunny Daft says:

      I was wondering about this after I heard that the Tories had pushed through their power grab last night in Westminster, and wondered if anyone else had any thoughts…

      As I understand it, the London government can now strip any devolved powers away from the Scottish, Welsh and NI assemblies at will. Or as soon as the whole bill becomes official law, anyway. Could this mean that, even if Holyrood is currently entitled to legislate on passing a consultative indyref right now, that this power is likely to be withdrawn in the near future?

      And if so, what would this mean?? The London government will never in a million years ever grant a Section 30 order, and if Holyrood is stymied like this from holding our democratically mandated referendum, seems to me there’s only the Catalan-style insurrection model or a UDI. None of which will be backed by the EU, and both would be politically incendiary even here in Scotland.

      NB: I’m starting to feel like the whole Brexit farce must be a sideshow to the real political purpose of gathering the Henry VIII powers all into the House of Commons cabinet (under the radar of the opposition), and seizing the UK executive in a fascist coup before anyone knows what’s happening. Kinda like Emperor Palpatine’s evil plan in the first shit Star Wars film. How can any modern administration with access to mobile phones and Wikipedia technology be so jaw-droppingly incompetant otherwise??

    256. boris says:

      Petra: Mifsud is employed at Stirling University where INTO has just finished building their new faculty: Paid education is big business world wide and £400billion and growing fast. They are working up their newest venture aided by Trump and the Equity Funds. Trump’s Finance Bill reverses the Obama protection of public education funding by allowing taxpayers to deduct all fee payments to private schools before tax. The move is intended to persuade parents to remove their children from state run education the funding of which will be reduced over time reflecting the new reality. Scots need to be alert to what is going on since it is entirely possible the Tories will take England down the same path. The subsequent reduction in finance to Public education will be reflected in the Barnett formulae. Finance for Scottish education would be much reduced making it difficult for the Scottish government to sustain free education.Scots Universities will soon experience the Trojan Horse they invited into their Campus

    257. stu mac says:

      @Dr Jim says:
      5 December, 2017 at 1:43 pm

      You are preaching to the converted. Post that on some sites where it will be read by folk that need convincing.

      A fault to some degree or other with all of us on occasion I suppose.

    258. @Robert Kerr,

      When people use the word `Ulsterisation` are they meaning the three part strategy used by UK Gov to militarily disengage mainland UK from NI and use NI combatants during troubles,

      `Ulsterisation`,part one,”primacy of the police” of a three-part strategy the other two being “normalisation” and “criminalisation”`

      this was a copy of the `Vietnamisation` used by the Americans to disengage American soldiers (too many getting killed bad for reelection) and use mostly South Vietnamese soldiers,

      so does Ulsterisation of Scotland mean UK Gov and UK BBC/Media disengaging and using more Scottish Parties and Media to attack SNP/Nicola,

      or does it have another meaning entirely?

    259. Lenny Hartley says:

      Hi Brian Doonthetoon, how’s it going?
      re the radio station polls, looks like online polls, you know us cybernats rule the roost online, Rock can’t be everywhere so the other side don’t get gets the votes on online polls as most of there supporters are having their afternoon nap in their care homes.
      So take them with a pinch of salt

    260. Rock says:

      An open Irish border would be nothing less than a backdoor entry for the UK into the European Single Market and the other way round.

      A massive fudge opening the door even wider to massive corruption.

      The only reason it might happen is both the UK and the European Union are massively corrupt politically.

      The “plebs” of the UK democratically voted to get out of the EU and the single market, not for a fudge to protect the City of London.

      As for Scotland, Nicola spectacularly squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      As a result, instead of being on the verge of independence, Scotland and its political leaders helplessly and cluelessly look on at the theatre going on.

      The clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here have not guts to put their money where their mouths are and go on the record to predict what they think is going to happen.

      Rock (28th June – “Slight reprise”):

      “The UK will have a “snap” Brexit while we are caught napping with no legislation in place for an independence referendum.”

    261. Lenny Hartley says:

      Bunny daft, so wrong on your thinking, we don’t need permission from Westminster for a referendum full stop

    262. heedtracker says:

      The clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here have not guts to put their money where their mouths are and go on the record to predict what they think is going to happen

      I predict a unionist arsehole called Rock, will keep on posting same ol same ol, Sturgeon bad, SNP worse, right up to the first Scottish independence day parade, down Princes street, Edinburgh, Scotland.

      You read it here first:D

    263. Thepnr says:


      You had me nodding in agreement there for the first three sentences with that last post. Then once more it was “plebs” “squandered” and your absolute favourite “flogging a dead horse”.

      Tell you this Rocky nobody in Scotland has spent more time since the last referendum in “flogging a dead horse” as you have done here on Wings.

      Nobody here wants to buy any rubbish you are selling, go and flog it elsewhere. I hear the Mail is looking for a new pleb.

    264. heedtracker says:

      As the beeb Scotland gimp network goes batshit mental trying to smear FM Sturgeon, with the greatest torboy catastrofuck of our time, probably since Labour went to war in the middle with the Bush nutters, its starting to mess up the EU negotiators too.

      ‘We can’t go on like this’: mood of resignation in EU as Brexit talks stutter
      Theresa May is ‘afraid of her own shadow’, her government is weak and Brexit is proving ‘nonsense’, observers say”

      It’s the end this shithead union. We just need to be cool.

    265. Legerwood says:

      Meg merrilees @ 9.33

      Cannot remember whether I heard it on the news last night or saw it online in the Herald or on the Rev’s Twitter but there was a statement last night that the Queensferry Crossing would open today. But the work is not completed.

      They were opening the southbound lane today because high winds were forecast and of course the QC is windproofed, to a degree, unlike the Forth Road Bridge so traffic can keep moving. The work that is needed to complete the current job on the southbound lane will be done overnight.

    266. Davie Oga says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      5 December, 2017 at 9:49 pm
      I saw this hours ago and thought that SOMEBODY would have provided the link by now.

      But nobody has. Comments?

      Those are not reliable polls as far as giving an accurate assessment of future referendum voting intention. They are biased towards a yes and discriminatory. It’s a well known fact that local radio stations refuse to question imaginary postal voters during the course of their polling. This sort of naked exclusion of a minority demographic should not be allowed to continue in a modern, progressive Scotland. I believe in Scottish independence but I’m not sure I would want to live in the sort of country that so readily treats imaginary postal voters as second class citizens.
      Their silent voices should be a reminder to us all.

    267. ronnie anderson says:

      If any of you’s in or around Glasgow have a spare couple of hours this Thurs night 7pm Livestream need a audience & interviewees , any takers .

    268. Proud Cybernat says:

      Did the Rev once say he expected 2017 to be a quiet year politically?

      Just asking.

    269. Phronesis says:

      The Disunited Kingdom is collectively losing its mind.

      Brexit- A Tragicomedy;

      ‘The debate over the Irish border may well come to be seen in retrospect as simply a precursor of other even more intractable dilemmas thrown up by the self-contradictions of the whole Brexit project…The Irish government rightly believes that the openness of the inner Irish border is an important expression of the success of the Good Friday agreement in vastly reducing political violence and promoting co-operative integration within the island of Ireland. Many in Dublin remain convinced that even today the British government is incapable of realizing the objective complications and contradictions of the path towards Brexit on which it is engaged… As so often in the Brexit tragicomedy, there are no good choices for Mrs May.

      Progress towards the second phase of the Brexit negotiations is dependent upon giving an undertaking that one part of the United Kingdom will not move far away from the European regulatory model. This undertaking will be unacceptable to an important section of her own party and inevitably lead to calls for similar exceptions to be carved out for other parts of the United Kingdom such as Scotland, Wales and London..

      It has been fear of this loss of confidence which has led her over recent weeks to important readjustments of British negotiating positions. If even these readjustments are insufficient to secure progress on 14th December towards the second phase of the negotiations, Mrs May’s political position within the United Kingdom will be perilous indeed…The present Irish controversy will have played an important role in that process of learning throughout suffering…“Taking back control” may have been an attractive slogan during last year’s referendum. It bears little relationship to the realities faced by the British government in trying to “make a success of Brexit.”

      ‘A Train Wreck’;

      ‘this makes the idea that after a Hard Brexit, the UK will enter a period of sunlit highlands and a global El Dorado misleading and delusional…The results here are sobering…Those regions that voted most strongly to leave the EU, notably the West and East Midlands, the North West, North East and Yorkshire, will endure greater economic losses proportionate to their regional economies than will the South East and London. From a sector view, the sectors most strongly negatively affected by a Hard Brexit are Transport Equipment, Textiles, Rubber/Plastics, food processing, electrical equipment and agriculture…

      Unlike some other countries, the UK has no formal arrangement where issues of regional equality have any constitutional role… And in terms of government policy there is the (in)famous Barnett formula, which is a back of the envelope arrangement for dividing up government funding across the United Kingdom according to a pre-determined formula…The chart shows how England dominates the economic picture. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all score less than 10% each. The two largest sub regions are London and the South East, between them accounting for around 35% of the total UK GVA…To put the results shown below into perspective, they are equivalent to another Great Financial Crisis, quite possibly stretched out over a longer period of relative decline…the odds of the Brexit negotiations ending in a “train wreck” have shortened…

      Those areas that voted most strongly to leave the EU suffer the most for it. A cruel outcome for voters who had no idea that this might be a result of their voting decision. It is tempting to think that had these possibilities been more widely explained, many might have changed their minds’

      Exit from the ECJ-Irrational, Self-Inflicted Damage;

      ‘At present these opponents of exit confine themselves to resisting specific manifestations of the policy of departure, not the policy itself. Until they can overcome their reluctance expressly to oppose leaving the EU and fully to deploy their authority as parliamentary representatives, the UK faces choices only between different varieties and degrees of irrationality and self-inflicted damage’

    270. heedtracker says:

      Their silent voices should be a reminder to us all

      Issues are serious though. Anyone can get on the electoral register in Scotland, anyone at all. There is no qualification at all. You can be from anywhere in the world, and if you want to vote by postal ballot, there is no formal check whatsoever why you want to vote in Scotland either. All they do is check your on the electoral role.

      Try voting in the USA, by postal vote. First off, if you’re not an American citizen, with a social security number and birth certificate, you cant vote, postal or otherwise. Even if you have a social security in the USA, you cant vote. Foreign students in the USA cant vote but they can get a social security number. Its like our National Insurance number.

      So you can see, there are a huge number of issues, qualifying for a postal vote in Scotland. And the USA is the world’s second biggest democracy, behind India.

    271. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Despite the efforts of the media to portray it otherwise Ruth Davidson has just exposed herself for what she really is – London’s little helper happy to work against Scotland’s interest for the Tories with her soulmates the DUP.

    272. Brian McHugh says:

      Brexit negotiations ongoing…

    273. North chiel says:

      Ruth Davidson aligning her Scots Tories with the DUP for one reason and that is
      clearly to reintroduce sectarianism into West of Scotland politics. Hopefully , the majority of the Scottish electorate will see through this cynical divisive ploy and reject the bitter and divisive agenda which she and her “ media friends” wish to pursue.

    274. Still Positive says:

      Scottish Tories are a shower of complete bastards. No question about it. They voted last night to remove powers from the Scottish Parliament in spite of the fact that at least 3 of them had been members of said parliament.

    275. Thepnr says:

      This article below above all else shows clearly that for leave voters immigration was all that concerned them.

      Some of the results to my eyes at least are simply amazing:

      •52% now think Britain will get a bad deal, up from 37% in February

      •61% now say the UK government is handling the negotiations badly, up from 41% in February

      •The proportion of Leave voters who think the UK will secure a good deal out of Brexit has fallen from 51% on February to 28%

      •21% of Leave voters think the UK government has handled the Brexit negotiations well, down from 42% in February

      That’s not the worst of it, the most amazing is this:

      64% still think that ‘people from the EU who want to come to live here’ should have ‘to apply to do so in the same way as people from outside the EU’, only slightly down on the 68% who backed this provision in February.

      Brexit for many was ALL about immigration, this is the evidence. It seems that people might not care that they end up poorer as long as no more Poles or Muslims get into the UK.

      Thanks a bundle BBC, Daily Mail and Daily Express, job done.

    276. Thepnr says:

      120,000 job losses in Scotland alone and more than 1,000,000 across the UK.

      Higher inflation and rising interest rates but with little prospect of pay rises. Fuck up of the century.

    277. Stoker says:

      As we run into the final hours, a desperate call for help folks:

    278. geeo says:

      @bunny daft 10.31pm

      Pathetic attempt, worse than the resident cut and paste moron.

      The standard of yoonionist on here has really nosedived over the years..

      Deary me..!!

    279. geeo says:

      Apparently there was a thwarted plot to kill Theresa May last week…

      News just released tonight…!!

      Oh look…a squirrel with a suicide vest…how unusual !

    280. geeo says:

      Laughed so much…forgot the link…!

    281. Les Wilson says:

      I came across a statement made by president Lincon, a long time ago and immediately thought, it applies today to the Tories and perhaps Westminster itself.

      “In June 1858, Abraham Lincoln, then a U.S. Senate candidate in Illinois, gave us a related warning: “A house divided against itself cannot stand.”

      With all the back stabbing going on down there, I felt it was quite appropriate to be repeated for these times.

    282. cearc says:


      I really can’t see the point of them targeting her. She’s doing more damage to the country than them.

    283. Michael McCabe says:

      Trump Vs Talking Heads

    284. Breeks says:

      Thepnr says:
      6 December, 2017 at 1:10 am
      120,000 job losses in Scotland alone and more than 1,000,000 across the UK.

      Higher inflation and rising interest rates but with little prospect of pay rises. Fuck up of the century.

      They’re not done yet. Even IF they get Advance to Go and are able to start discussing trade, the talks are going to come to a grinding halt, and pretty much on day 1 so far as I can see.

      Theresa May is charging on with tearing up EU laws and jurisdiction which will no longer apply to the UK, but Michel Barnier has already stated that such action is going to be a massive problem for any trade deal.

      The EU will protect the Four Freedoms in any Trade Deal, and to protect those freedoms obviously requires legislative control over standards and protocols.- the very thing which the Tories are currently throwing out of windows and heaping onto bonfires. Barnier has said a favourable disposition towards any trade deal with a non-EU country largely depends on that country trying to meet convergence criteria and essentially trading in exactly the same way as a member state would trade; something along the lines of “if you’re sure you can meet the EU standards, then sure, let’s talk and have a trade deal”.

      By comparison, the UK already meets convergence criteria for EU trade, the benchmark which non EU traders aspire to, but the UK is already declaring its deliberate intention to diverge AWAY from EU standards, and paddle it’s own canoe with its own UK standards. We are already seeing it happen with the UK respect for sentient animals being a lesser standard than the EU standards.

      This is a “double whammy” for Barnier, because first, the UK is actively pursuing a divergent course from the EU, steering itself away from EU standards. And second, without any legislative control and final say over those UK standards, the EU has no say or control over how far the UK might diverge in the wrong direction. The EU will simply say no. “It’s my way, or the highway”.

      May has prevaricated for months over the divorce bill, before a humiliating capitulation to what the EU said consistently from the beginning. Everybody saw it coming except Theresa May. I can confidently predict that any Trade Agreement between the EU and the UK will be exactly the same; terms dictated by the EU and the UK will be obliged to take it or leave it. Negotiating as a bloc empowers the EU and greatly strengthens its bargaining position. That’s one of its primary raisons d’être.

      We now have the crass spectacle of Ian Duncan Smith bringing pressure on May to cast aside all the EU legislative authority of the ECJ. On you go champ, but do that, and you can kiss goodbye to any EU Trade Deal in the foreseeable future.

      The UK will whine about being punished by a cruel EU, but the EU is merely observing the mundane protocols which the UK has never bothered to read. Britannia might like to waive the rules, but it won’t impress the EU this time…

    285. Al Dossary says:

      @Geoo 2.05am,

      Let’s assume just for a second that the “the squirrel” about May was a real squirrel and not just the usual diversionary fake news.

      Just who would be behind the attempt. Some (for fun) guesses could be…..

      The Remembrancer (City of London rep)
      Arlene Foster’s DUP
      Ruthie Baby in a coup attempt.
      A cabal of Brexit endangered banks aghast at Brexit.
      MI5 / MI6 acting on behalf of any or all of the above.

    286. Skintybroko says:

      BBC now to teach students how to spot fake news – well there’s money for old rope, just get them to watch the BBCNews – NIck he never answered my question Robinson anyone?

    287. Shinty says:

      BBC’s new festive slogan ‘Christmas Together’

    288. Nana says:

      ‘We can’t go on like this’: mood of resignation in EU as Brexit talks stutter

      Dodgy dossiers /Dodgy Brexit assessments

      MPs and peers criticise tight security around Brexit impact reports

    289. Macart says:

      Thanks Nana. 🙂

      Nearly there.

    290. Brian Powell says:

      North chiel

      The greatest enablers for sectarianism in Scotland was/is Labour. They ran Scotland and were strongest in the West for 70yrs. Sectarianism tainted every part of peoples lives there. Virtually every centre of strong Labour presence was rife with Orange Order.

      Davidson has latched onto it, but the base support is still Labour.

    291. Nana says:

      Good morning Macart, I sure hope so, blood pressure rising again!

      Could we have a debate about libdem/Tory/labour failures, and another one on the propaganda media Scotland has to suffer.

      MSPs to debate motion of no confidence in Police Scotland

    292. heedtracker says:

      Skintybroko says:
      6 December, 2017 at 6:13 am
      BBC now to teach students how to spot fake news – well there’s money for old rope, just get them to watch the BBCNews – NIck he never answered my question Robinson anyone?

      Robinson’s BBC r4 Today show has simply not even mentioned yesterday and the staggering tory Brexit tragedy. Its like it all never happened on Nic Robinson’s planet toryboy with the DUP.

      Just another jaw dropping display of tory beeb gimp propaganda, with no actual vote tory propaganda.

      Maybe its all been just a bad dream but to be fair, beeb r4 tory gimp headline news, a man is convicted trying to blow up Teresa.

    293. call me dave says:

      Radio shortbread can’t get Mundell or Davidson on to
      Comment about Brexit and Scotland so get a Pr.AT (Prof A Tomkins to stand in.

      Gary soon had him struggling on all things about who’s running the UK Brexit negotiations Arlene or/and Ruthie but he says it’s still May.

      Gary like most of us is not convinced. 🙂

      What happens next is anybody’s guess!

    294. Les Wilson.
      That ‘A house divided’ was quoted earlier than Mr Lincoln. It was Jesus.

    295. wull2 says:

      If there is a snap GE, the SNP should say that if the majority of MP’s returned to WM are SNP, then Scotland will call for another ind ref immediately, on the same timescale as this one.

      We have nothing to lose, as the PM says, it’s the tory MP’s that make the difference to Scotland. (VAT)

    296. HandandShrimp says:

      Tomkins had to show loyalty to his leader but he convinced no one regarding how the DUP pulled the rug from under May.

      Bottom line is a very soft, possibly soggy, Brexit. The Brexit types will not be pleased and May could find her coat on a shoogly peg.

    297. Nana says:

      Starting shortly

      David Davis questioned on Brexit sectoral impact assessments

    298. heedtracker says:

      Yup, its all about Teresa getting blown up, beeb r4 gimp headline news today, no BBC r4 mention about Brexit disaster yesterday at all, shock!

      Other news, lucky sods.

      European Commission
      15 mins ·
      ? ? Happy Finnish Independence Day ? ?
      Did you know that there are 188 000 lakes in Finland and that 39 % of the energy consumed in the country comes from renewable energy?
      2017 is actually the centenary of Finland’s independence! The northernmost country in the EU has been one of us since 1995. Let’s celebrate Finland’s big year together

      Is it a coincidence that all we ever hear about Finland, from teamGB gimp network media, is that Fins are blighted by SAD and or, drink themselves to early deaths?

    299. PG_Newark says:

      Life is just a bowl of cherries, but if your a scottish unionist MSP, its all raspberries all the time
      If i was asked to describe them in one word, that word would be liars

    300. Cuilean says:

      Chrissakes, Henry, give it a rest. They promised us that in 2014 and instead of federalism they’re doing a power grab so that Holyrood will no longer be in charge of fishing and farming, to make it easier for them to sell us down the river again. Just feck off now Henry, we’re all tired of your pie in the sky shite.

    301. David Caledonia says:

      Listening to any scottish news these days is like watching that film groundhog day over and over again, so pointless

    302. Sinky says:

      Usual unionist establishment figures on Call Kaye Radio Scotland re Brexit.

      For some balance after 10 is an interview with Kez Dugdale.

      I’m not joking

    303. Les Wilson says:

      Well, BBCs are now wanting people to tell them what they think
      of Brexit. Odd to do this, after the almost blank sheet yesterday/
      It suggests the psychologists have now instructed the way to spin the ” Brexit meeting”and the shambles incurred.

      So now they have had time to garner their usual crowd of hardest brexiteers. They are the most devious media outlet in the world.

    304. Thepnr says:

      Just listening to David Davis from the link Nana gave earlier. Absolutely awful, waffling doesn’t come close to describing his response to questions.

      He’s denying having done any impact assessments! Pure mental case.

    305. geeo says:

      Apologies if this has been posted already, and tbh i would be surprised if it has not been…

      Heidi Allen, the tearful hypocrite.

      Then you read her voting record…

    306. geeo says:


      Watching Davies now …unbelievable waffle does not even come close. Cant take much more of this drivel..make Jeremy Kyle seem a good viewing choice…!!!

    307. Breeks says:


      David Davis just told the Commons EU Exit Committee that the government has not done “a quantitative economic forecast of outcome” of Brexit. “The Government has not written an impact assessment”.

      I’m speechless. Wow.

      Can the Government last the day I’m wondering?

    308. Tinto Chiel says:

      I noticed some talk above of a simple majority of SNP seats at a UK GE being regarded as a mandate to declare independence, as in the Olden Days, when the Milk-Snatcher told us that was how to do it.

      This has obvious attractions: even with unreformed postal voting, a GE is much more difficult to rig than a binary-choice referendum and when all the parties are fighting each other, and the SNP would be in a strong position given its present number of seats.

      The difficulties I can see are: there are sufficient muddled-headed “Indy supporters” like Cat Boyd et al who might consider voting for Saint Jeremy for One Last Push for Socialism in One Country, and, since a GE is unlikely to produce an SNP vote of 50+%, there would be the usual claims such a result would not be sufficient to declare independence.

      My concern is that unless steps are taken to safeguard the integrity of postal voting and tighten up procedures in voter registration and residency, it will be very difficult to win a referendum, given the desperation of rUK to hold on to Scotland, the unspoken Jewel in The Crown.

      And that’s not taking into account the Force 10 OrgasmoBrit Onslaught we’d undergo from The State Propaganda Corporation, of course.

      The FM’s New Year statement on independence will, I hope, make matters clearer.

    309. X_Sticks says:

      Just like to throw something into the mix about voting. In Catalonia when there is an election or referendum vote ALL ballots are counted at the polling station in front of local observers (I think *anyone* can observe if they want). There are no postal votes. If you want to vote you need to turn up and be identified. There were old folks voting at the 1 Oct referendum. They were assisted to the polling stations by friends or family. The eldest were applauded into the polling stations.

      Once the votes heve been counted locally the outcome is then advised to the central collection of votes.

      There is almost no way to rig the vote when it is done this way. No postal, no ballot boxes being ‘transported’ to central counting, no opportunity for black ops. I like their system. We should adopt it for the next indyref.

      Links excellent as always.

      Wanted to add that Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, met with the Chinese Vice Premier Liu Yandong on Monday. Not so much as a mention on the MSM. You’d think we were a third world colony.

    310. Les Wilson says:

      Joe of the Coutts says:

      Well I did not know that, but fail to see what that really has to do with my pointing out that it now could apply to the Tories for the reasons I pointed out.

    311. Capella says:

      Re the Lib Dem justice spokesman bringing a “No Confidence” vote against Scottish Police in Holyrood today – Nana’s link above.
      A brilliant thread from Callum Steele on Lib Dem collusion with tory austerity, the cause of lack of public sector funding.
      A must red from Stu’s twitter.

    312. Breeks says:

      @ X_Sticks 10:02am

      Thumbs up from me.

    313. Robert Graham says:

      Well Davis ain’t getting a grilling is he , nothing happened this week, being allowed to waffle, a district lack of any accents other than English ones , I notice Joanna Cherry is there what’s the chances of Dear Hillary son of a real MP allowing her a question,
      A real distinct lack of women’s voices , just a jolly little chat between the chaps , get a f/n grip this is serious , get him sweating, start asking searching questions yah useless tossers .

    314. Nana says:


      Add to that the Vice Chair of the Scottish Police Federation criticising Scotlibdems

      @Xsticks Nice to see you and yes indeed so much of what Nicola and the Scotgov do for us is never mentioned on BBC Reporting Westminster

    315. Breeks says:

      Robert Graham says:
      6 December, 2017 at 10:16 am
      Well Davis ain’t getting a grilling is he , nothing happened this week, being allowed to waffle, a district lack of any accents other than English ones , I notice Joanna Cherry is there what’s the chances of Dear Hillary son of a real MP allowing her a question….

      Give it time Robert. David Davis has in the past made any number of direct references to Brexit Impact studies being done, and even Bercow the Speaker was threatening contempt proceedings if they weren’t released. Davis has now just admitted they aren’t being kept secret, but there aren’t any.

      “Somebody” has been telling some mighty big porkies…

      Get your popcorn ready…

    316. Tinto Chiel says:

      Those voting procedures you describe are far too sensible, X_Sticks (dig the new groovy gravatar, btw).

      The ones we have are the result of years of questionable practice which benefited the anti-SNP parties. In particular Labour has had a long history of dodgy postal voting scams, particularly in the North of England.

      The next time the Yoons will be even more desperate since it really will be The Last Stand for The Glorious Union and they’ll do anything to stop us.

    317. Greannach says:

      Maybe the bumbling amateurism of the British government is a deliberate tactic. They know they have nobody up to the standard of the EU negotiators, so they send in the clowns, hope for a few laughs and some sympathy, but really plan on exasperating the EU side and boring them into acceptance of imperial demands.

      It won’t work. Just like it didn’t work with Northern Rhodesia, the Gilbert and Ellice Islands, British Honduras et al.

    318. Robert Graham says:

      Just when Davis is starting to be quizzed by a SNP mp the ever helpful Hillary starts to intervene to break up the questioning , the question he decided to cut is now being allowed by Sammy yer DUP man, Davis still denighing any impact assessments being available, no wonder he was laughing as he left, a more useless chairman would be hard to find , is Darling Hillary a Tory ? .

    319. X_Sticks says:

      Just noticed the IndyApp crowdfunder only has 11 hours to go. They are just over a grand short of their target.

      If we are serious about independence then we need to support this excellent connectivity tool. With any luck we’ll need it soon 🙂

      Please dig deep folks. I know it’s a difficult time financially for many, but even a couple of quid will make a difference. I’m going to chuck in a few more quid myself. It’s important.

    320. Capella says:

      @ Nana – wow, it’s amazing how astute the police reps are compared to the shoddy opportunism of the Lib Dems.

      I’m recalling the submission they made to the Smith Commission which spelt out the pressures on Police Scotland loud and clear.

      Maybe it’s time the Lib Dems paid their outstanding police debt?

    321. galamcennalath says:

      Sat down to catch up and what greets me …. David Davis coming clean and telling us the government has not done any formal impact assessments of Brexit at all … nil, nada, sfa.

      All the ballyhoo going on for weeks. Fancy procedures in parliament. Threats of court action. And it’s all lies!

      Who in government knew nothing existed!?

      What is worse? The lies to pretend that they are taking Brexit seriously? Or, the fact that they don’t appear to be taking Brexit seriously?

      Governments have fallen for less that what has transpired over the last 48hours.

    322. heedtracker says:

      Beeb propaganda farts one into the teamGB ether, one a day makes you vote tory. Comments open too. Has Donaldo allowed commenting under her beeb Scotland gimp network stuff at all. Guessing not a one.

      Impact assessment of Brexit on the UK ‘don’t exist’

    323. Robert Peffers says:

      @Sinky says: 6 December, 2017 at 9:29 am:

      “Usual unionist establishment figures on Call Kaye Radio Scotland re Brexit.”

      Call Kaye wi wan e’e has really hit rock bottom today.

      Could they manage to get any more absolute numptie zoomers on one programme together?

      There were more raving loonies on the show, even before we got Kez, John McTernan and Prof John on.

      One random, (cough!), caller called Margery was shouting at the top of her voice that the EU stopped the United Kingdom, sic erat scriptum’ [sic], from trading with other than EU countries. One wonders how Margery explains all those Japanese, Chinese and Korean cars running around UK roads or the plethora of far Eastern electronic stuff sold in the likes of Currys and PC World.

      Kaye wi wan e’e has gone well past her sell by date and completely past her use by date. You will get far more logical and reasoned content on any of the Loony Toons cartoons. In contrast to Call Kaye wi wan e’e yon Wile E. Coyote is a paragon of logical reasoning compared to Call Kay wi wan e’e.

    324. heedtracker says:

      Governments have fallen for less that what has transpired over the last 48hours.

      My money’s on Teresa resigning by Friday. Cometh the hour cometh the real tory crazy, Mike Gove and BJ the Clown.

    325. Les Wilson says:

      X_Sticks says:
      A link please

    326. X_Sticks says:


      Sorry Les, I meant to add a link:

    327. X_Sticks says:


      Second try.

      Sorry Les, I did mean to add a link. May have fallen foul of the spam filter.

    328. Bill McLean says:

      Breaking News! “British exceptionalism has created another disaster – and has no solution to it”! Not news you say …….!!!

    329. harry mcaye says:

      I’ve said it before, the Call Kaye team call these people, they don’t just hope they happen to call in. BBC calls THEM. Don’t ask me how I know, I just do.

    330. Robert Graham says:

      I guess we will learn our future when the delectable Arlene gets off the phone after telling Mayhem what to do , there is no point Mayhem saying anything Arlenes in charge .

      Don’t yah feel welcome in this Union, the last to leave the building please turn out the lights .

    331. One_Scot says:

      Not sure if there is a book open, but my moneys on ‘No deal’.Lol

    332. Giving Goose says:

      In reply to Robert Graham

      “is Darling Hillary a Tory?”

      Yes! A BritNat Establishment Tory!

    333. Nana says:


      Gings have they still not paid up, do you remember how much it was? Perhaps one of the police reps should go along to the debate and personally hand the bill to the libdems.

    334. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Re postal ballots and electoral irregularities at the last referendum there are two points

      1) the notion that the UK state would not interfere with the electoral system in a referendum if it felt it had to is absurd. Of course it would.

      2) We will never know if the referendum was rigged. Impossible 96%+ take up of postal ballots in at least five Scottish constituencies suggests it was. The thought that some fiddling went on at counts is probably inaccurate. There would have been no need.

      The UK postal voting system is a “recipe for large scale fraud” was the determination of the EU over ten years ago. They were right. In fact it is worse than that. In UK it is simple to register for a vote. Unlike in most advanced countries there are no proper checks. Fictional persons can be added to the electoral roll fairly easily. Once they are there they remain there. They can get a postal vote. Such was the avalanche of applications for postal votes pre referendum appropriate checks were not done in most council areas. “Appropriate” checks don’t need to be done so completely lax are the regulations.

      You are talking here of a member of staff at the local council with lots of other duties being tasked with checking for the proper address etc of thousands of applicants and just ticking them off if the address was registered.

      But they don’t even have to be fictional.

      I have anecdotal reference to a house in my area with five postal votes at the referendum in a the family home of people who had not lived in Scotland for over twenty years.

      With postal voting applications sitting for months on Council computers they were open for access to any serious interested party.

      “Recipe for large scale fraud” indeed.

    335. Nana says:

      David Davis has been called to resign over lies about the Brexit impact assessments.

      The Brexit Secretary was today forced to admit that the government has not assessed the impact of Brexit for different sections of economy to the EU select committee.

    336. Alba 46 says:

      Brilliant interview with John Pilger the Australian documentary film maker. He is perhaps the best in the world at what he does. This interview covers the Americans in Vietnam, Mandela in South Africa and his assessment of the bias of the BBC.

      Journalism needs more of his type of input. Sadly we in Scotland are subjected to non stop state bias and bullshit.

      It lasts 30 minutes – well worth watching.

    337. Mike d says:

      X_sticks 10.02am. Completely Agree, ballots should be counted at the polling station in front of observers, and not ‘transported’anywhere else for “counting. And no postal voting allowed.Anything other than this, will result in another farce.

    338. Les Wilson says:

      X_Sticks says:

      Thanks, however I found it on Rev’s twitter feed. It is doing well and I will add my bit later on, but today.
      Cheers, note glad to see you back, hope all is well with you.

    339. Robert Peffers says:

      @Giving Goose says: 6 December, 2017 at 11:19 am:

      “In reply to Robert Graham
      “is Darling Hillary a Tory?”
      Yes! A BritNat Establishment Tory!”

      In truth, with the exception of the SNP and Plain Cymru, they are all unionists and thus members of the Westminster Establishment.

      Do not let the various unionist party names and the unionist party colours fool you. They are fundamentally all thus right wing unionist at heart. In many cases the Tory policies in force today were factually originally instigated by the Labour Party or were helped into force by the LibDems.

      Mind you the Tories may well have slightly changed the basic concept but the present set-up that has transferred main taxation from direct to indirect taxation was by Labour. It has long been recognised by the main leading economists, such as Adam Smith, that indirect taxation places the main burden of tax upon those less able to pay and thus enriches those already well able to afford to pay.

      This has been the system supported by all Westminster governments since it was instigated by Labour yet for some reason the general public seem still fixated upon the belief that income tax is the most important for of taxation – it most certainly is not.

      You really couldn’t shove a RIZLA fag paper between any two of them. If they do not support each other directly they will abstain or just not turn up for the debate and vote.

      Oh! Shit! I’m now listening to Fluffy Mundell, (The Secretary of State for against Scotland). It is enough to make a muckle proverbial Wally Dug greet.

      The background sounds, even although suppressed by the BBC, is still unacceptable and a disgrace that Westminster supports.

    340. CameronB Brodie says:

      OT and please believe me that my intention is not to be cruel, or to play party politics. This is a crucial time in Kezia’s life and I hope she keeps clear of BLiS___d, which lacks a coherent sense of self-identity itself.

      “I wish I’d had a role model like me when I was a teenager” – Kezia Dugdale

      Handbool of Self and Identity

      Self, Self-Concept, and Identity

      ….So what is this self (or identity) that is so important? Self and identity researchers have long believed that the self is both a product of situations and a shaper of behavior in situations. Making sense of oneself-who one is, was, and may become, and therefore the path one should take in the world-is a core self-project. Self and identity theories assume that people care about themselves, want to know who they are, and can use this self-knowledge to make sense of the world. Self and identity are predicted to influence what people are motivated to do, how they think and make sense of themselves and oth­ers, the actions they take, and their feelings and ability to control or regulate themselves (e.g., for conceptual models, see Baumeister, 1998; Brewer, 1991; Brown, 1998; Carver & Scheier, 1990; Higgins, 1987, 1989; Oys­erman, 2007).

      Basic Operationalization


      ….While we focus on the structural aspect of self-concept (e.g., individualistic, collectivis­tic, proximal immersed, distal other), much of the literature focuses on content and evalu­ative judgment, asking what people describe when they describe themselves and how pos­itively they evaluate themselves. This focus on content plus evaluative judgment is quite common in research on children and adoles­cents, and typically involves closed-ended rating scales in a series of domains (e.g., physical appearance, athletic ability, emotional stability, peer relationships, family relationships; see Harter, Chapter 31, this vol­ume; Marsh, 1990).

      However, content can be studied separately from evaluative judgment, often with open-ended probes asking people to describe their current, ideal, and ought self-concepts, or their desired and undesired possible selves (for a review of measurement of possible self-concepts, see Oyserman & Fryberg, 2006). In the same way, some re­search focuses explicitly on self-judgments or self-attitudes. These self-judgments are typically operationalized as self-esteem or self-efficacy and are a distilled evaluation of the person’s sense of worth and competence in the world (e.g., Bandura, 1977, 2001; Crocker & Park, Chapter 15, this volume; Rosenberg, 1979). Self-concepts also differ in how they are structured. Researchers have documented differences in which content domains are organized together, in complexity, in how positive and negative information is stored, and in the likelihood that strategtes for ac­tion are linked to self-goals.

      Consider first the structural implications of how content is considered. People may organize and structure their self-concepts around some domains that others commonly use to make sense of them-their race or ethnicity, their gender, their weight, their age, or their academic standing in school. If this social in­formation is used to organize self-concept, people may be said to be schematic for the domain, which implies that they will pro­cess information that is relevant to it more quickly and efficiently and remember it bet­ter than information that is irrelevant to it (Markus, Crane, Bernstein, & Siladi, 1982). It also implies that people will act in ways that fit their schemas (Oyserman, 2008; Oy­serman, Brickman, & Rhodes, 2007).

    341. Shug says:

      Has anyone any thoughts on the best way to review and monitor the number of people on. The electrolyte register

    342. Shug says:

      Sorry electrol

    343. X_Sticks says:


      Never been away Les, just taking a backseat unless I have something useful to add. All good with me just been busy.

    344. Iain mhor says:

      Just musing about a General Election next year, based on two things:
      First, the seats the SNP shipped via the targetted campaign.
      Second, the ‘Neutrals’ who vote SNP for government but not neccessarily Indy voters. On the basis it absolves them of any decision making about staying in the Union.

      Now, the SNP had no particular stance to campaign on the last GE. A GE being irrelevent to Scottish votes anyway. We get what England voted. The dialogue in Scotland just reverts to : “Labour or Tory – pick one” So my musings were on the possible repercussions of standing on an Independence ticket at the next GE (Looking more probable next year by the minute)

      How hard would that really hit the SNP?
      If not standing as ‘Indy’ I expect similar outcomes to the last GE – at best hanging on to what they have. Certainly it could improve again, but to what avail? Still little power to influence anything at Westminster and the nebulous Indyref2. At worst they lose further. Currently, without a majority and a tenuous grip under constant assault, is it really that much of a gamble? It does risk losing power early.

      Tough decision. There are a few years yet to stay in power at Holyrood before a Scottish Election & a week is a long time in politics as ever. So I can understand the decision to wield a loaded indyref2 on the hip and wait. By the same token, further losses in a snap GE takes yet another bullet from the chamber of the Indyref2 gun (Agressive Unionist type metaphors are fun aren’t they)

      But supposing, if there is a GE next year and the SNP do stand on an Indy ticket? I suspect the ‘Neutrals’ (as I’m describing them) vote SNP to avoid making a decision. But that would force them to make one. Vote Indy or lose the governance they want. It also means in the event of a loss of SNP power, there are still a couple of years for Brexit to bite and subsequent Scottish Elections (if SNP again stand on an Indy ticket) to allow them to ‘come over” – if they experience any of the ‘voting remorse’ we heard over Indyref1 & Brexit.
      It would certainly nullify the incessant “No Indyref2” dialogue which had gained so much traction and pull the dialogue away from the usual “Labour/Tory” of a GE.
      How would shelving Indyref2 for an Indy ticket hurt?
      Hard to say, it was mandated. Would it be perceived as betrayal? Perhaps not – an Indy ticket is really just an Indyref2 (a rose by any other name)

      These Neutrals, floating voters, waverers, call them what you want, are the percentage needed to tip the balance – An indyref2 next year though still allows them to waver, keep their SNP government and postpone a decision.
      On the SNP side, I dare say there is argument for the reverse, gamble on taking a hit again in a GE, run Indyref2, if it fails, try and pick up the final decision at a Scottish GE standing on an Indy ticket.

      It seems to me though, recent events have shown the “New Zealand” model of incremental independence has been blown out the water, with the recent power grabs by Westminster.
      It was a laudable enough long term strategy in relatively benign political decades, but I feel (obviously so does Westminster) peak SNP powers of government are now. They need it killed, or at least mortally wounded. How long before “The government they like & want” can no longer deliver for the neutrals and the inevitable shuffle back to “Labour/Tory”?

      Mind you, the first order of business for a Unionist majority at Holyrood would probably be to dismantle it and go home the same afternoon! I’m glad I’m not the one trying to make the executive decision on what to do that’s for sure.
      I’ll leave “99% & 100%” certainties to our astrologer in residence.

    345. Robert Graham says:

      Rober Peffers – a more vomit inducing stuttering performance from a complete arse wipe I can’t find , Fluffy stands alone as be able to stand and never attempt to answer a question any question, the constant reference to the hounerable member for Renfrewshire , in the end totally baffling to all listeners, how anyone could actually vote for this article is beyond me .
      As for Mayhems dismissal of any problems with the EU negotiations, these people are on a whole different planet, indeed a different universe and let’s face it Corbyn is not the answer , clueless .

    346. HandandShrimp says:



      Yes, it does look like the constant attacks on Police Scotland by the Lib Dems must be motivated by something close to their heart. Perhaps if Police Scotland are disbanded they won’t owe the money to anyone?

      Who remembers Rennie’s flailing about over trained officers carrying their arms? A couple of years later and a few terrorist attacks and nary a peep out of him. The Lib Dems are a party searching for a relevance…as yet unsuccessfully.

    347. heedtracker says:

      “I wish I’d had a role model like me when I was a teenager” – Kezia Dugdale

      So she would grow up to be someone completely not who she is today?

      Yoons really be crazy.

    348. Capella says:

      @ Nana – nobody knows – but lots asking on twitter. Amount is said to be £800,000 which would be a welcome addition to police funds. They will all have to go on I’m a Celebrity (NOT) to cobble together the funds.
      Or a Lib Dem lord might cough up.

    349. One_Scot says:

      Theresa May there at PMQs being so full of shit with regard to Scotland it is hard to believe.

    350. galamcennalath says:

      Iain mhor says:

      Just musing about a General Election next year

      The big issue will be getting SNP potential voters enthused and voting.

      General elections ….
      2010 491,386 votes
      2015 1,454,436 votes
      2017 977,569 votes
      2018 ????

      Independence has to be in the air, IMO, to get the numbers up again.

    351. call me dave says:

      Ruthie in the Herald but not on Radio shortbread.

      The union retained at all costs, even if it’s Scotland in the Single Market better together till the end and attempting to put the simmering Indy2 off the hob it seems.

      Some wag suggesting the dog ate Davis’s Brexit impact assessments
      on WOS twitter. Will he resign? Oh wait he’s a Tory!

    352. wull2 says:

      Shug says:
      Has anyone any thoughts on the best way to review and monitor the number of people on. The electrolyte register

      Compare the people on the Scottish tax register. Just the names.

    353. Macart says:

      After that David Davis admission, I’m not sure I’ve got enough snacks in the house.

      PM and cabinet have a couple of simple questions to answer. 1. Was the PM and cabinet aware that these reports never existed? 2. If these reports have never existed and you were aware, why have you allowed Mr Davis to repeatedly and publicly mislead the UK’s electorate for the past several months?

      Answers on a postcard… etc.

    354. geeo says:

      Pete Wishart raising point of order on Davis evidence at committee earlier.

    355. Robert Graham says:

      It’s a comfort a Scottish lib-dem commenting on the fourth crossing , I believe she said something along the lines of a vanity project ,that is shut, this allowed a Tory minister to further compound the total misinformation , by adding and shut for months to come I might add .

      Are there any Unionist MPs in Scotland whose aim is to acutely represent Scotland and not use every opportunity to stick the boot in , a shower of gutless cowards, looking for a spine to attach to

    356. Breeks says:

      Can’t believe this. Nothing. I thought Davis would be gone by lunch time. Still waiting for the resignations to start…

      Surely lying, repeatedly and wilfully, about these Brexit impact assessments must make his position untenable no? This is a big thing, – at least “sexed up Iraq dossier” big. The man negotiating the UK’S catastrophic exit from Europe seems like he’s never actually read the Lisbon Treaty, cannot grasp the negotiation protocols to save his life, and now it transpires he hasn’t even prepared impact studies of the economic ramifications of Brexit, but worse still, has lied to deliberately mislead people that the studies did exist and the consequences were known. Davis has been blagging Brexit from the beginning. The only saving grace for Davis is that he’s neither the biggest nor the baddest lying bastard in the frame. But he might be the first one held to account.

      I am truly stunned. A new low for Westminster.

    357. ronnie anderson says:

      Bercow waffling on the Davis contempt of Parliament & awaiting the report from Hilary Benn s committee THE LIE WAS IN THE HOUSE reiterated in committee & should therefore be held to account by the Parliament forthwith .

    358. ronnie anderson says:

      Further to my previous post , notice the change in the wording from Impact assessment reports to Sectoral brext reports .

    359. geeo says:

      Iain Mhor gibbering again.

      Get a grip man.

      You are obsessed with elections.

      There is ZERO chance of a GE in 2019, just as Brexit is concluding.

      So, unless there is one in 2018, and the tories surely know they would lose it, so are unlikely to hold one, there will be no more elections of any kind before March 29th 2019, other than maybe a tory LEADERSHIP election.

      If we do not have an indyref before then, we run into other legal complications, which is exactly why the timetable has always been AFTER THE DEAL IS KNOWN but BEFORE March 29th 2019.

      The EU have indicated they want 6 months to study and ratify the deal, meaning by 29th SEPTEMBER 2018
      the terms of the deal WILL BE KNOWN.

      Because the terms are known, then the effects will begin to show more and more as the Yes campaign moves on through this 6 month period until referendum day, whenever that date is chosen to be.

      All the SNP need say is, that if WM did call another Snap election, we will be considering it as a litmus test on independence, to see where we are, but NOT a definitive resolution of the issue.

      That would give them food for thought, especially if SNP increased their seats on the back of such a statement.

      “Vote SNP if you want independence” and then winning a majority of seats with an indyref already called, WM would really be in a panicked state.

      So, you keep chuntering on about hypothetical elections, but I will keep focussed on the real world issues.

      We ARE winning here, 47% in latest poll is 50% taking into the 3% margin of error, i prefer to look at that and say that we are just 1 vote away from independence. 50% + 1 vote = independent.

    360. Al Dossary says:

      @Brian Powell,

      Yes sectarianism has always been encouraged by the Tory and Labour party both.

      However, the Tory party was heavily supported by the “protestant” working class and the Labour party the “Catholic” working class – especially in central Scotland.

      Not so long ago the orange order had a dictator from their grand wizard (or whatever the hell they call him) that a “vote for the SNP is a catholic vote” in a general election.

      These people basically lent their vote to Labour in the knowledge that only Labour could beat the SNP in their constituency.

      There are movies of that pompous, alcoholic murdering oaf Churchill on youtube where he is addreasing 50k “Conservative and Unionists” at Ibrox.

      In the aftermath of Thatchers destruction of the country ot seems that even the OO couldn’t bring themselves to vote for the Tories.

      Unfortunately now we are seeing the re-introduction of these old battle lines in Scotland.

      Some if the “Irish” vote has gone back to Labour, much of the “Protestant” and Grey vote has gone to the Tories. There were pictures posted after the last elections of certain orange lodges with pictures of their candidates in the glasgow elections stelling them to vote 1 & 2 for them.

      Sectarianism has served the establishment well in the province, and it currently is serving hem well in Scotland now. In the central belt an fife we have the religious sectarianism whilst in the Borders and Highlands we have the sectarianism of Yoon against Indy.

    361. geeo says:

      @nana 11.29am

      I believe the lib dem police bill was around £800,000.

    362. schrodingers cat says:

      the tories will throw NI under a bus, they tried on monday and failed, but even if they dont do so again in time for the EU’s announcement on 15th DEC, they will do so before the spring.

    363. Fred says:

      Bella has a couple of good articles on Foster, Ruth & the Rednecks!

    364. geeo says:

      In the odd world of ukok politics…Theresa May’s Tories are currently running Northern Ireland, and Arlene Foster’s DUP are running the uk…!!

    365. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Why hasn’t Davis gone yet?

      Why did his ‘secretary’ manage to slither around what most would regard as pretty straightforward questions?

      Why didn’t the members of that committee – who have plainly been lied to, repeatedly – go for the jugular? Why didn’t they even look that bothered?

      Thinking out loud here: any of these people, Hilary Benn included, can put their hands on their hearts and state, in good faith, on a stack of bibles or whatever else, that they believe what they’re doing is ‘in the best interests of the country’ if the country they’re referring to and concerned with is The City of London.

      We already established this in an exchange last week, with Robert Peffers, Petra and others here – The City of London has the same status as The Vatican. It is, technically, a ‘country’.

      Brexit isn’t exposing cracks in Establishment institutions – it’s just forcing them to close ranks.

    366. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Graham says: 6 December, 2017 at 12:14 pm:

      ” … how anyone could actually vote for this article is beyond me .
      As for Mayhems dismissal of any problems with the EU negotiations, these people are on a whole different planet, indeed a different universe and let’s face it Corbyn is not the answer , clueless .”

      To my mind, Robert, until the electorate realises the stark staring truths that really are all so obvious but are used in almost every sentence these duffers spout, then we cannot expect to have an informed and reasonable result in any election.

      Now that statement probably requires an explanation from me as it seems few people really have realised the enormity of their brainwashing propaganda.

      Let’s just state a few of the real facts against the lies and let the implications sink in.

      The Westminster Government is NOT “THE”, British Government it so often claims to be. It is only, “A”, British Government and should be referred to as, “The United Kingdom Government”. Theresa is thus constantly lying to herself and to everyone else. Westminster only thus speaks for The United Kingdom.

      The United Kingdom is exactly what its title describes it as – a united kingdom comprised of only the two equally sovereign, still extant, individual kingdoms of Scotland and England. It is not a union of four countries as three of those countries are integral components of the Kingdom of England. Scotland alone is both kingdom and country but The Republic of Ireland broke away from the Kingdom of England as a republic cannot be part of a kingdom and as a republic it is a country that therefore has its people as sovereign. i.e. it has no dictator and no monarchy.

      Jersey is a Bailiwick but has the Queen of England as its monarch but is independent of Westminster as a Crown Protectorate.

      Guernsey is also a Bailiwick and Crown Protectorate.

      The Isle of Man is another Crown Protectorate.

      Ergo Westminster does not govern Britain it governs only the United Kingdom.

      Here’s another little lie for the unionists to swallow: There is no such thing as the British Navy – in the first place it is The Royal Navy and in the second place there is a Republic of Ireland navy and it is not part of a, “Royal”, Navy:-

      The Irish Military:-

      And the Irish Air Corps:-

      But the Westminster Establishment don’t want you to know that when they speak of, “THE”, British army, navy and air force they just mean A British army, navy and air force.

      BTW: the Irish military are a well respected part of the UN White Helmets.

      But Westminster doesn’t want you to know that.

      So there you go – Theresa and her minions will continue to lie in just about everything they ever say or write. Now I ,leave it to wingers to decide for themselves if these liars are lying to themselves and believe they are the rulers of Britain or if they really know the truth that they do not govern Britain and are brain washing the electorate deliberately.

      So what of those of the electorate who claim that Britain, or even the United Kingdom is a unified country? Why would they believe that when it so obviously is not true.

    367. Robert Kerr says:


      Had given 20 sovs already but added 55 to get the little badge.

      400 sovs or so to go.

      We shall be ready.

    368. ronnie anderson says:

      @ wull2 should that ? not be witch electoral registers as there are 2 .

    369. Thepnr says:

      Watch David Davis waffle as he now claims in front of the Brexit committee that there are no impact assessments.

      This is truly astonishing, seriously gobsmacked. When will he walk or be shoved off the plank?

    370. call me dave says:

      UK electoral system faces ‘perfect storm’ of threats, says watchdog

      Not directly related to Scotland but a tightening up recommended all round.

    371. X_Sticks says:

      Great news! That’s the IndyApp 2.0 fully funded.

      Well done everyone.

    372. Gary45% says:

      harry mcaye@11.05
      Aye they do just that, “personal experience a few years back. “Nuff said”

      Missed the start of “Shortbread K wi an e” this morning, was Buchan introduced as a failed Tory candidate as well as an “absolutely fantastic man of the people”!!!! all round smashing bloke/fisherman, with all the nations interests at his heart!!!
      (wee bit of sarcasm there) I very much doubt it, I think it was “Marjory?” who summed up the United Empire attitude for me. TOTAL ROASTER.

    373. Bill McLean says:

      Robert at 1.37 Pm – “the Irish military are a well respected part of the UN White Helmets”. Blue Helmets Robert. The White Helmets were a somewhat suspicious and discredited body in Syria during the worst of the Aleppo siege.

    374. cirsium says:

      @X sticks, 10.02am
      In Catalonia when there is an election or referendum vote ALL ballots are counted at the polling station in front of local observers (I think *anyone* can observe if they want). There are no postal votes. If you want to vote you need to turn up and be identified. There were old folks voting at the 1 Oct referendum. They were assisted to the polling stations by friends or family. The eldest were applauded into the polling stations.

      Once the votes heve been counted locally the outcome is then advised to the central collection of votes.

      There is almost no way to rig the vote when it is done this way. No postal, no ballot boxes being ‘transported’ to central counting, no opportunity for black ops. I like their system. We should adopt it for the next indyref.

      Seconded. Transparent, local, allows citizens to monitor – sounds good to me.

    375. Gary45% says:

      Yep, nailed it, if the elderly in Spain can manage then there is no excuse for postal votes here.
      If you don’t show up at the polling station= No vote.

    376. Hamish100 says:

      In North Ayrshire a hardy tory couple go around the care and nursing homes gathering postal votes with the tacit support of the home owners.

    377. Meg merrilees says:


      Indy app fully funded and one hour to go… well done all and sundry who have contributed. Another weapon in our Pro-Indy armoury.

      Currently on £13,000 +

    378. meg merrilees says:

      Heard a great interview this morning about 8.45 Today programme BBC R4.

      John Humphries was interviewing a Civil Servant about the recent DUP/Tory Brexit collapse.

      The man, Johnathon ? was succinct.
      He basically said all politicians are stupid, the civil servants do all the hard work and a without them none of the deals would get done.

      E.G. for this recent fiasco, it was civil servants who thought up the phrase ‘continuous regulatory alignment’ the Irish Gov wanted to say’ avoiding regulatory divergence’

      They deliberately create ambiguous phrases and statements that each government can happily interpret to give the specific result they are seeking.
      ‘Continuous regulatory alignment’ was created to cater for things like movement of water, across the border between N and S Ireland without there needing to be a border as such.

      He said that the Good Friday Agreement was worded in such a way that it allowed people to feel Irish and British, Irish N.Irish and British or just British but the wording created that flexibility.

      He said that the Irish gov was happy with the document which had been produced over the weekend, the EU was happy and the UK gov was happy, but NO-ONE told the DUP anything.
      Mind you, he said that the DUP would have been expected to tear it apart, so that’s probably why they weren’t told.

      He firmly laid the fault at NO.10’s door and whilst he didn’t think ‘THE TROUBLES’ would start up again, he thought the whole thing was now probably impossible to square.

      I think Humphries was shocked by his bluntness!

      It’s well worth a listen

    379. meg merrilees says:

      Meant to post yesterday –
      Heard a great item on Woman’s Hour taking about Nursing being in crisis in ‘this country ‘and they had got in a spokeswoman from Nurses’ training to discuss the problem.

      She started by saying:
      The real problem lies in cuts to training in England.
      In Scotland there is an increase of +9.2% in numbers being trained,
      In Wales +6.4% but in England it is -2.6%.

      This is because Jeremy Hunt has removed £1.5 billion from training funds which covers bursaries to help them pay for accommodation, food and living costs and training fees as you can only train through a University now. This has impacted hugely on numbers of women coming forward to train and especially on mature women who want to train at a later stage in their life.

      Amazingly, she wasn’t interrupted or hustled off the microphone.

      So the next time it kicks off in Holyrood, remember Scotland has 9.2% more nurses in training than England.

    380. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      call me dave @ 15:01,

      After a return yesterday to that off-topic old faithful, the electoral process, an interesting coincidence that this very morning the head of the Electoral Commission, Sir John Holmes, was talking about “the mess” (his description, I believe) it’s in. Which thus very much does impact on us up here.

      The little media coverage so far of what he was saying seems to major on “the Russian influence”, but this seems to be merely a handy PR hook for what he was really saying.

      One very significant point I recall him making on the radio concerned the very diffuse and ramshackle state (my words) of the registration process, something I touched on yesterday and concerning which DMH also had some very troubling comments to make.

      Holmes also indicated a need for more stringent penalties for rule-breakers, eg. diddling the spending limits. Personally, I feel the main deterrent to that will only be felt after someone gets real jail time for crossing that line. (Nota bene, Jo Swinson.)

      He also recommended more stringent checks of voter identity, NI-style. Which is fair enough as far as it goes, but he said nothing I can recall about postal voting, probably because the Electoral Commission has been very hot on that. Not for any nefarious purpose, paranoiacs please note, but simply out of a well-meaning desire to make voting easier and increase turnouts (and to hell with the unintended consequences).

      Hmmm. Like many others here, I’m not convinced, and believe that except for very good reasons, the vast majority of voters ought to spend a few precious minutes of their TV-watching time by taking their sorry asses to a polling station instead and doing their civic duty in person.

      The obsession that some have with ballot boxes is misplaced, though, and stems from a general lack of awareness of the precautions that are routinely taken. (Eg. ballot boxes sealed by non-reproducible means until opened at the count, separate records taken of the count – which is one reason why names are crossed off as ballot papers are issued – and forwarded separately, and the numbers tallied in the first phase of the counting process. So “ballot box stuffing” or replacement can’t happen.)

      It’s important to identify the real loopholes. My dislike of postal voting stems from two main factors:

      + As mentioned above, the current registration process itself is far too slack, and is open to wrongly-enabled and even “phantom” voters.

      + The process is highly vulnerable to “personation by proxy”. Some protagonist offers to “assist” a bunch of pre-registered old dodderers place their postal votes by doing all the box-ticking for them. The forms are then signed-off by the unsuspecting dodderers, and consequently pass all rigorous later checks.

      Same applies to housemates in places of multiple occupancy. A convenient means of giving multiple votes to one unscrupulous resident, or at the very least an opportunity to breach the necessary electoral confidentiality of the others.

      The first of these concerns can in principle be addressed by suitably-enhanced administrative rigours, but by its very nature the latter just can’t be.

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