stooges of the Kremlin

Wings Over Scotland


The faithful pet

Posted on December 02, 2017 by

(It’s nearly Christmas! Buy a cuddly Hamish The Lion toy here! Plus maybe some cartoon books.)
Print Friendly

    1 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

    1. 02 12 17 07:56

      The faithful pet | speymouth

    389 to “The faithful pet”

    1. Baldeagle58 says:

      Wow! Nailed it again, Chris.
      The real reason Mayhem won’t criticise the Orange Nazi is because Britain will need to trade with the US even more after Brexit. Trump feels he has Britain exactly where he wants it, following the US around like a little puppy.
      (Chris, you should’ve given the dog May’s head as in ‘Mars Attacks’. That would’ve really summed it up!)
      Hopefully Scotland will be away from the Union before that.

    2. Dorothy Devine says:

      Streuth! I just picked up on that ‘shrinking violet’ the Modest Mone talking about Nicola Sturgeon – thanks Rev Stu , next time put a health warning on any of that bloody woman’s comments.

      I have NEVER bought her underwear and never will and I sure as hell won’t buy her jewellery either.

      What an egotistical know all – and she has the audacity to criticise others.

    3. Fergus Green says:

      Another brilliant cartoon Chris. These make Saturday mornings sparkle.
      Perhaps the bulldog/terrier should be depicted as a poodle?

    4. K.A.Mylchreest says:

      I’m seeing a wee scottie dug doon under the chair, quietly growling and ready to bite an ankle 🙂

    5. X_Sticks says:

      When Trump is the London government’s only hope then you know they are in deep trouble.

      Worse, it now looks like the beginning of the end for the Trump dynasty. The whole house of cards is looking very shaky.

      Where will the tories turn for succour and trade then?

      If Trump falls can London realistically continue with brexit? If they do they will reduce the UK to a marginalised little backwater with few friends in the world. (not that that wouldn’t be the case anyway)

    6. K.A.Mylchreest says:

      Och, an is that no an Irish Setter approaching ready to cock his leg … ??? 😉

    7. Effijy says:

      Chris you just go from strength to strength!

      Maybe the mutt should be on its hind legs begging? lol

      On a serious note, I took a strange interest in historical
      cartoons, particularly political ones dating back to the
      Napoleonic wars.

      These cartoons also have the quality and depth to be enjoyed in 200 years time.

      Wonderful skill to sum up the feelings of the day with one
      picture.

    8. Calum McKay says:

      Loyal beyond stupidity!

      When a friend abuses you, mocks you and lies about you, it’s time to ditch that friend.

      Both uk and Scotland should look to realign thier allies going forward!

    9. defo says:

      Trump ?
      Meh!
      He’s got an invisible collar too.
      Betcha. Shekel to a penny.
      Holiday boy can see it too.

    10. Clootie says:

      Trump certainly trained his pet to “roll over”.

    11. Jim Corse says:

      Another great job. It looks like the union flag is in the distress mode!

    12. Breeks says:

      This insane clot Trump is about to pour petrol onto the Middle East by recognising Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, and thus spawning a new grievance and provocation to Muslims, which will agitate yet more hatred and terrorism.

      And for what? Why is this in any way necessary? The man’s a fecking idiot, but at least there are people in the US angry enough to seek to bring him down and be impeached.

      The man’s a fecking idiot, but he’s still a NeoLiberal godsend, and Theresa’s Tories have the English NHS primed and ready for privatisation, the idea already sold to the masses as a vital reaction to crisis, forgetting its the crisis which the Tories themselves engineered, dancing to the tune of American Health Insurance and Drug companies who were big sponsors of the US TPP Trade Deal which had its eyes on European Healthcare.

      The same Theresa’s Tories who just elected to omit recognition that living animals are sentient beings under UK law, thus rolling back EU standards in animal welfare and protection which exposes our domesticated livestock to US inspired use of steroids, growth hormones and chemicals in food production for human consumption, and our wildlife and other animals once again exposed to the barbarity of fox hunting, trapping, culls, gassing and vivisection. No less an auspicious newspaper than the Times has already carried an article where the Duke of Buccleuch talks up the merits of fox hunting, to a UK Prime Minister who cannot grasp the enormity of Brexit ramifications, but can take time out to back her own agenda to support fox hunting. Interesting priorities eh?

      Perhaps Theresa May has plans to send a fox’s head mounted as a stuffed trophy for the Big Game Hunter Donald who wanted the trade of Elephant trophies made legal again. Wake up Scotland, these are the self serving morally bereft imbeciles who are making plans for our country.

      Scotland’s golden future in renewables is right now imperilled by the same London conspirators who lied through their teeth about Scotland’s oil, plundered it for decades while Scotland saw virtually no benefit, no shipping manufacture, support infrastructure, or capital oil fund anything like that which Norway made prudent plans for the benefit of generations of Norwegians.

      There are even credible arguments to be made that the catastrophe of Brexit itself was wilfully engineered and all part of the same conspiracy to allow the Tory’s UK to escape all the constraints and high standards of European law, actually manufacture a collapse in UK economics and industry so that John Redwood and his Tory ilk can hoover up the UK’s assets at bargain basement prices and later restructure UK industry and finance from the ground up, to the Dickensian ideal of the Tory delusions of Empire and class privilege. For the rich few, lives of privilege and entitlement. For the poor, a lifetime of poverty and servitude.

      The Tories tried to destroy Scotland before, because they covet the buoyancy of Scotland’s resources to bail out their grasping greed and self serving interests, but see us Scots as a nuisance and a threat to their cosy exploitative practices. They will harvest the useful ones of course, the Mudells and Davidson’s, and they will tolerate the red ones who can be useful too. Every puppet government must appear credible and democratic after all….

      Aye, we all a nuisance. Scotland will stop you fracking. Scotland will stop you plundering our seas. Scotland will stop you harvesting the poor and the sick like cattle. Scotland will stop slaughtering wildlife for bloodlust. Scotland will deny you our soldiery which has squandered itself so bravely for your Imperial influence. Scotland will resist you nuclear program and raise the global benchmarks and standards of sustainable energy production. Scotland will ban your genetically modified foods. Scotland will argue against you war mongering.

      Heads up Tories, and lets be kind include the laughable “useful idiots” from Scotland who call themselves Tories, – you are losing Scotland, and despite your best efforts, Scotland once free of you, will begin to thrive and excell for decades, once it has cast off these centuries of exploitation and manipulation. Scotland will renew its vows and trading links friends from all over Europe as the European nation which Scotland is destined to remain. Scottish interests will lose the BritNat nepotism in its board rooms, councils and management agencies, where a persons credentials will not be who they went to school with, but their capacity to be clever and to put Scotland first.

      Our culture, or Scottish culture, will be shared and enjoyed with European cultures, mixing together with our differences adding colour and enrichment to our individual time on earth, while south of the Border, you will celebrate a frigid, joyless winterland of Narnia for as many years, decades, or centuries as it takes to see your English exceptionalism and right to exploit others as cruel and self defeating delusion. You will have nobody to blame but yourselves,…. and your BBC.

    13. Alba woman says:

      Excellent cartoon and comments thank you Chris……..Top class edition of Bella Caledonia magazine in National today.

    14. ronnie anderson says:

      Great Toon Chris we hiv aw different variations but you would need ah big wa tae put it oan , mibbee’s Trump wid gie permission tae put them oan the Mexican border wa lol.

    15. ronnie anderson says:

      http//www.thenational.scot/news/15698067.Frenzied_weekend_of_talks_will_see_Theresa_May_try_to_fix_unfixable_post_Brexit_Irish_border/

    16. Bob Mack says:

      Usual brilliant cartoon Chris. We are indeed lapdogs for Trump, or T- rump as I call him. He is a dinosaur from another age.

      Reflecting on these past years I come to the conclusion that the majority of the Scottish public suffer from a condition called “learned helplessness”. They have been conditioned over the past few centuries to have no belief in themselves whatsoever. Here on Wings we have many who have put aside that belief and have grasped the fact that we are a resilient and capable nation.

      I hope events over the last few months also inspire others to see the light.

    17. Robert Graham says:

      All the political commentators on the English media lined up rushing about to give their view on the donalds latest wee tweet,

      All voicing an opinion on the Donald , all this while making sure the only person outside Mrs Mayhems circle to have had direct dealings with him , Alex Salmond ,will they ask him for his take on this , will they Dixie the same media who vilified Alex for having the cheek to host a show not controlled by them .

      The vindictiveness of the English media and their establishment masters knows no end it goes on for ever , Alex will never be allow to sully their airwaves again , Persona Non Grata for ever .

    18. cearc says:

      K.A.Mylchreest,

      Nae, it’s an Irish wolfhound (leading a pack of 26). More pee and from a greater height.

    19. One_Scot says:

      Trump could take a dump in Mays soup, and she would still welcome him with open arms.

    20. heedtracker says:

      UK pooch should have the cross of st george, with a BBC dog tag. Looks like Orange Hitler’s on the impeachment channel soon though. Last night Trump’s biggest UKOK cheerleader BBC r4 news gimps, were really struggling with the Trump’s man Flynn confessing. The whole of the UK media is as neo fascist as Trump.

    21. Breeks says:

      ronnie anderson says:
      2 December, 2017 at 10:16 am
      http//www.thenational.scot/news/15698067.Frenzied_weekend_of_talks_will_see_Theresa_May_try_to_fix_unfixable_post_Brexit_Irish_border/

      Is it just me? Or isn’t it desperately disappointing that Northern Ireland is having a pivotal input into the Brexit negotiations, perhaps even enjoying commanding leverage on bringing down the UK government or securing themselves a soft Brexit peculiar to Northern Ireland, while all that Scotland, with a whole lot more to lose than Northern Ireland, can boast about is a polite and cordial meeting with Michel Barnier, who was at pains to point out such contact should be mistaken for negotiation.

      Is there date set in Nicola’s calendar for a “frenzied weekend of talks” about Scotland?

      Or are we planning a “Gladiator” type last round on negotiations where we send a headless Mundell tied to horse galloping towards the Brexiteer army as a message that the Scots say no?

    22. HandandShrimp says:

      Trump doesn’t take criticism, any criticism, well. The little May has made is probably enough to ensure the UK is at the bottom of the trade deal pile.

    23. heedtracker says:

      Its the World Tonight, last night, if you want to hear how beeb gimp network, hard core support and cover for Orange Hitler like he’s one of their own, now face reality. Also, catch beeb gimp excitement at Britain’s draw at next World Cup in Russia, oops he meant England. Just before though, he bashes on and on about Britain ruled Ireland for centuries, not England, Britain.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09gbnk3

    24. Street Andrew says:

      Breeks says:
      2 December, 2017 at 9:46 am
      “This insane clot Trump is about to pour petrol onto the Middle East …………….You will have nobody to blame but yourselves,…. and your BBC.”

      But apart from those few minor problems everything is just tickety-boo wouldn’t you say, Breeks? 🙂

    25. heedtracker says:

      Or are we planning a “Gladiator” type last round on negotiations where we send a headless Mundell tied to horse galloping towards the Brexiteer army as a message that the Scots say no?

      Its a gordian tory knot. DUP can rant and rage but the EU are very clear, Brexit will only happen if one of their EU members gets exactly what they want from the tories, no border with Northern Ireland.

      If the Irish do not get non border with NI, there is no deal. Brexiteers made Ireland far more powerful than the UK with just a cross in the Leave box last year.

    26. Legerwood says:

      Robert Graham says:
      2 December, 2017 at 11:00 am

      Jack McConnel had direct dealings with Trump. It was Mr McConnel as FM who negotiated with Trump to get his golf course built in Scotland. Although ‘negotiated’ is perhaps too strong a word – rolled over and did as he was telt would be nearer the mark.

      The SNP coming to power in 2007 inherited the mess.

    27. The situation is really becoming worrying with Trump, this guy’s becoming more unstable by the day.

      And what’s more his base, those American rednecks don’t appear to have a problem with what he says or tweets as they continue to give him their support.

      As for May did we really expect anything more from her as she refuses to withdraw the invitation of a state visit to the UK for Trump.

    28. Ken500 says:

      Scotland has Westminster over a barrel re powers coming back on Brexit. Or no concessions on Brexit. Scotland to stay in single market etc. Then an IndyRef2.

      After all the slagging off of Scotland. Nicola has an article in the Guardian. Guardian hypocrites.

    29. heedtracker says:

      Legerwood says:
      2 December, 2017 at 11:23 am
      Robert Graham says:
      2 December, 2017 at 11:00 am

      Jack McConnel had direct dealings with Trump. It was Mr McConnel as FM who negotiated with Trump to get his golf course built in Scotland. Although ‘negotiated’ is perhaps too strong a word – rolled over and did as he was telt would be nearer the mark.”

      Yes Legerwood, but its just a golf course! Its not a nuclear missile dump, toxic chemical factory, meat rendering plant, Pacific Quay stuffed with tory roasters and other horrid things.

      Its a golf course, at Balmedie, well just past it, where can sit and freeze your golf balls off, 9 months of the year:D

    30. heedtracker says:

      Stinky old The Graun never ever reports anything really about Scotland, Scottish nascent democracy and above all else Scots FM Nic Sturgeon.

      Your average progressive liberal The Graun reader must be wondering who on earth this actually is.

      http://archive.is/gCmmu

      “The prime minister of course rushed to extend the hand of friendship – literally – to Trump when he was elected, and she is right to ensure that the deep, longstanding links between these islands and our friends in the US endure.”

      Meh, UKOK war dogs maybe, useful idiots, really. Scotland’s just part of their wildly insane global nuke missile madness. Even St Obama shat hard on Scottish democracy, 2014 because they’re all so into democracy n shit over there.

    31. K.A.Mylchreest says:

      Breeks & Heedtracker :
      “a headless Mundell”
      But would anyone notice the difference?

      Cearc :
      Aye, the whole pack of 26, casually trotting up one by one to leave their mark … and the smell will linger …

    32. John H. says:

      It’s still unlikely that Trump will be impeached, but even if that happens, he will simply be replaced and Britain will still be in the same subservient position. The USA has the same regard for Britain that a dog does for the nearest lamp post.

      Dorothy Devine 7.56am
      I won’t be buying any more of Lady Mone’s underwear either 🙂

    33. Phronesis says:

      It is tragic that our American friends thought that the election of Comrade Trumpinsky was the answer to the challenges to their democracy. The FBI is not letting this go it seems;

      ‘For the second time in a little over a month, the White House on Friday was forced to distance itself from a person implicated in criminal activity on President Trump’s behalf…The implication is that Flynn was removed from the president, just some guy who’d worked for Obama and who temporarily served Trump in the White House. It’s nonsense both because of what we know about Flynn’s time with Trump, and because of how hard Trump once fought to defend his friend.

      Flynn was one of the first passengers on the Trump train…There are any number of indications that Flynn agreed to the charges from Mueller in exchange for testifying against other senior members of the transition team or administration — perhaps including Trump…The statement of offense indicates that Flynn lied about two conversations with Kislyak. One came after speaking with a “senior official” from the transition team about sanctions the Obama administration was imposing because of Russian meddling in the election’

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/12/01/trump-put-his-presidency-at-risk-to-defend-michael-flynn-what-happened/

      It’s tragic that Scotland is still under the cosh from a WM cabal that thinks this;

      ‘It [Customs Union] puts up the price of food, clothing and footwear. These hit the poorest in our country the most because the largest portion of their money is spent on food, clothing and footwear compared to the richer in society’

      Someone is confused and in denial about his party policies that are aggressively dismantling the state and destroying the fabric of society (although not his entitled society) of the disunited kingdom,ending lives prematurely- a million lives to be exact.

      ‘In 1891, life expectancy for women in England and Wales was 48 years. For men it was 44…By 1921, women lived to 60 and men to 56…Life expectancy continued to soar ahead. By 1951, 30 years later, women lived to 72 and men to 66… By 2011, women in England and Wales were living to 83 years and men to 79 years…And then, after 2011, under the Conservative-led governments of David Cameron and Theresa May, nothing. No improvement. Life expectancy flat-lined.
      The latest figures for the period 2014 to 2016 were published in September 2017. Women can now expect to live to 83.06 and men to 79.40. For the first time in over a century, the health of people in England and Wales has stopped improving…The most plausible culprit was a combination of the particular kind of austerity for the poor and elderly that the 2010 Conservative-Liberal Democrat government so quickly enacted By 2016, cuts in welfare spending, especially to older pensioners had been linked to a rise in deaths – initially among elderly women and later older people in general living in poorer areas.

      Public health experts writing in the British Medical Journal called for an inquiry, but none came. Instead, the government’s public health officials continued to claim that: “Recent high death rates in older people are not exceptional.”
      The situation in Scotland was even worse than that in England and Wales, but again there was no official response when this was pointed out. In hindsight, there was wilful neglect by politicians, tinged by officials’ fear of upsetting their political masters in a time of savage spending cuts On November 16, an article in the British Medical Journal Open concluded that severe public spending cuts in the UK were associated with 120,000 deaths between 2010 and 2017. Just over a third of these occurred between 2012 and 2014 and almost none in 2010 or 2011. The rate of death due to austerity was rising and there was what is called a “dose-response relationship” between cuts and rising mortality.

      In almost all other of the most affluent countries, apart from the US, people live longer lives than in the UK, often many years longer, and the best countries continue to pull away – leaving the UK and US even further behind.’

      https://braveneweurope.com/danny-dorling-and-stuart-gietel-basten-life-expectancy-in-britain-has-fallen-so-much-that-a-million-years-of-life-could-disappear-by-2058-why.

      Toxic politicians, toxic policies, toxic stress nationally and being exported around the world- slow deaths here- rather quicker elsewhere-building our economy on the proceeds of war, famine and pestilience.

      https://iraq.savethechildren.net/

      http://www.unicef.org.uk/donate/syria/

      http://www.savethechildren.org.uk/Yemen-Crisis?

      ‘More than two million children (in Yemen)are malnourished and thousands have died from preventable illnesses. One child is infected with cholera every minute.
      In areas affected by fighting, children are being killed and maimed by airstrikes and explosive weapons. Hospitals are being bombed and many health services have completely collapsed’

    34. heedtracker says:

      John H. says:
      2 December, 2017 at 11:44 am
      It’s still unlikely that Trump will be impeached, but even if that happens, he will simply be replaced and Britain will still be in the same subservient position. The USA has the same regard for Britain that a dog does for the nearest lamp post.

      Collusion with Russia or any foreign state is treason and Trump’s not above the law.

      What Trump will do is go to war, with North Korea probably, bettertogether with his useful UK idiots.

      War is peace, freedom is slavery, worship the royal family, SNP bad… its quite easy being a UKOK media gimp.

    35. call me dave says:

      Aye The Donald. Running out of staff at the White House daily.

      Edging closer to a possible impeachment and a friend to Britain.

      Good cartoon as always. 🙂

      PS:
      Sturgeon in the Guardian:

      https://archive.is/DqN5N

    36. Phronesis says:

      It is tragic that our American friends thought that the election of Comrade Trumpinsky was the answer to the challenges to their democracy. The FBI is not letting this go it seems;

      ‘For the second time in a little over a month, the White House on Friday was forced to distance itself from a person implicated in criminal activity on President Trump’s behalf…The implication is that Flynn was removed from the president, just some guy who’d worked for Obama and who temporarily served Trump in the White House. It’s nonsense both because of what we know about Flynn’s time with Trump, and because of how hard Trump once fought to defend his friend.

      Flynn was one of the first passengers on the Trump train…There are any number of indications that Flynn agreed to the charges from Mueller in exchange for testifying against other senior members of the transition team or administration — perhaps including Trump…The statement of offense indicates that Flynn lied about two conversations with Kislyak. One came after speaking with a “senior official” from the transition team about sanctions the Obama administration was imposing because of Russian meddling in the election’

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/12/01/trump-put-his-presidency-at-risk-to-defend-michael-flynn-what-happened

      It’s tragic that Scotland is still under the cosh from a WM cabal that informs us;

      ‘It [Customs Union] puts up the price of food, clothing and footwear. These hit the poorest in our country the most because the largest portion of their money is spent on food, clothing and footwear compared to the richer in society’

      Someone is confused and in denial about his party policies that are aggressively dismantling the state and destroying the fabric of society (although not his entitled society) of the disunited kingdom, ending lives prematurely- a million lives to be exact.

      ‘In 1891, life expectancy for women in England and Wales was 48 years. For men it was 44…By 1921, women lived to 60 and men to 56…Life expectancy continued to soar ahead. By 1951, 30 years later, women lived to 72 and men to 66… By 2011, women in England and Wales were living to 83 years and men to 79 years…And then, after 2011, under the Conservative-led governments of David Cameron and Theresa May, nothing. No improvement. Life expectancy flat-lined.
      The latest figures for the period 2014 to 2016 were published in September 2017. Women can now expect to live to 83.06 and men to 79.40. For the first time in over a century, the health of people in England and Wales has stopped improving…The most plausible culprit was a combination of the particular kind of austerity for the poor and elderly that the 2010 Conservative-Liberal Democrat government so quickly enacted By 2016, cuts in welfare spending, especially to older pensioners had been linked to a rise in deaths – initially among elderly women and later older people in general living in poorer areas.

      Public health experts writing in the British Medical Journal called for an inquiry, but none came. Instead, the government’s public health officials continued to claim that: “Recent high death rates in older people are not exceptional.”
      The situation in Scotland was even worse than that in England and Wales, but again there was no official response when this was pointed out. In hindsight, there was wilful neglect by politicians, tinged by officials’ fear of upsetting their political masters in a time of savage spending cuts On November 16, an article in the British Medical Journal Open concluded that severe public spending cuts in the UK were associated with 120,000 deaths between 2010 and 2017. Just over a third of these occurred between 2012 and 2014 and almost none in 2010 or 2011. The rate of death due to austerity was rising and there was what is called a “dose-response relationship” between cuts and rising mortality.

      In almost all other of the most affluent countries, apart from the US, people live longer lives than in the UK, often many years longer, and the best countries continue to pull away – leaving the UK and US even further behind.’

      https://braveneweurope.com/danny-dorling-and-stuart-gietel-basten-life-expectancy-in-britain-has-fallen-so-much-that-a-million-years-of-life-could-disappear-by-2058-why.

      Toxic politicians, toxic policies, toxic stress nationally and being exported around the world- slow deaths here- rather quicker elsewhere-building our economy on the proceeds of war, famine and pestilience.

      http://www.savethechildren.org.uk/Yemen-Crisis;
      ?
      ‘More than two million children are malnourished and thousands have died from preventable illnesses. One child is infected with cholera every minute.
      In areas affected by fighting, children are being killed and maimed by airstrikes and explosive weapons. Hospitals are being bombed and many health services have completely collapsed’

    37. Ruby says:

      Anyone else use Kaspersky anti-virus software?

      I’ve just had an email from Barclays who offer Kaspersky anti-virus software to customers FOC. telling me

      ‘The UK Government has been advised by the National Cyber Security Centre to remove any Russian products from all highly sensitive systems classified as secret or above.
      We’ve made the precautionary decision to no longer offer Kaspersky software to new users, however there’s nothing to suggest that customers need to stop using Kaspersky’

      I find that a bit strange. I think I might trust Kaspersky more than the UK Gov.

      Any thoughts?

    38. One_Scot says:

      ‘I find that a bit strange. I think I might trust Kaspersky more than the UK Gov.

      I would trust Del Boy and Arthur Daily more than the UK Gov.

    39. Ruby says:

      http://archive.is/vUoN1

      Article about Kaspersky.

      Talk about paranoia!

      Next we’ll be warned about Russian vodka & caviar.

    40. John H. says:

      heedtracker 11.52am.

      Then the sooner he’s got rid of the better, or this could be the last war, for all the wrong reasons. I wish it were otherwise, but there is a long way to go. It’s not easy to impeach a president, even Trump. The Republicans seem determined to keep him in office.

    41. Robert Graham says:

      Heedtracker – Of course i meant someone with some sort of standing in the wider current political scene .

      Jack would be lucky to be recognised in his own street , or in jacks case Road – Mews – Grange you get the idea .

      The only thing jack while in office did in Scotland , that he will be remembered was to send barrow loads of cash south because the labour clowns couldn’t think of anything to do with it .

      Of course your perfectly correct for pointing my error out , its just Jacks input to Scottish life slipped my mind , just like the last labour administration , thats until their legacy of PFI – Edinburgh trams – vindictive opposition to a second bridge .and costs associated with their mess continue eating into the Scottish governments budget . Thats when i remember Labour .

    42. dakk says:

      Nice one Chris.

      What will be hurting the arrogant British Nationalists even more is the fact that the once great empire is now even the poodle of the little Irish Paddys(courtesy of the EU).

      Stick it to them Paddy!

    43. Dan Huil says:

      It underlines the desperation of British nationalists in Westminster that they’re still banking [!] on Trump to shore up britnat Empire2.0.

      Delusional dimwit britnats.

    44. heedtracker says:

      I find that a bit strange. I think I might trust Kaspersky more than the UK Gov.

      Any thoughts?

      Everything we do online today is recorded and stored, everything. Its recorded and stored commercially by corps like google and the US/UK gov store exactly the same under their “Domestic Surveillance” programmes.

      Here its the spooks at,

      https://www.mi5.gov.uk/what-you-can-do

      If you do anything or say anything online that the above class as dodgy, you will be examined completely, without your knowledge of consent.

      Cops can show up at your door and look physically at your hard drive contents. Just ask toryboy like,

      “GREEN CPS PROBE ‘Extreme porn’ allegedly found on Damian Green’s computer was referred to CPS by cops”

      At no point in all the media coverage has any hack said why Green’s hard drive was actually examined by the cops. Its not hard to see why though, or is it?

      Beneath all that, organised crime has probably hacked every single commercial database they can, collecting millions of customers personal details, to later steal everything from bank accounts, or black mail the hacked corps.

      We should probably ask why the assorted UKOK tory media corps out there report/use all of the above, as in why the BBC is going big with UBER hacking and ofcourse now Kasperski?

      So the least of your worries online is your anti virus.

    45. heedtracker says:

      US satire. Satire’s dead in the tory UKOk zone today for obvious reasons,

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-v6HDIdC94

    46. Clarinda says:

      Yanis Varoufakis on the last QT slaughtered the idea that the UK government were in command of Brexit negotiations by remarking that when inevitable outcomes are celebrated as breakthroughs – you know you’re in trouble. He pointed out that the UK ‘negotiators’ have caved in on every single point so far demanded by the EU. The whole clip of his QT contribution is on You Tube but WOS readers will not be surprised to see Mr Varoufakis cut off from his measured observations by the ever fawning establishment sycophant – Mr D Dimbleby.
      If Mr Trump does visit London in February will he require to be hidden away from the public to preserve the faint hope of the ‘special relationship’ trade deal – or will his ego prevail.

    47. Valerie says:

      Excellent, Chris.

      I like the suggestions up thread about an Irish Wolfhound, they are huge dogs, which would dwarf that wee pug thing.

      Most appropriate with the Tories under the cosy to stop their magical thinking on the Border by Monday. There is no solution, other than customs union, single market. The UK govt trying to sell some shite about ‘trusted traders’ status to speed up border control, is just that.

      Just caught a wee bit of Shireen this morning. Peter Geogeoghan? saying the Irish are shocked that after 100 years, there is no parity, and England just regard them as savages.

      I’m shocked, the Irish are shocked.

    48. John H. says:

      Valerie 12.35pm

      “Just caught a wee bit of Shireen this morning. Peter Geogeoghan? saying the Irish are shocked that after 100 years, there is no parity, and England just regard them as savages.

      I’m shocked, the Irish are shocked.”

      Well I’m not shocked Valerie. I lived in Ireland many years ago, and noticed the arrogance of English visitors. Some of them still think they own Ireland, just as they think they own us. To some of them the empire has never ended. The generation of Irish people I knew realised this too. The younger ones are now learning some hard truths.

    49. Dr Jim says:

      @ Valerie

      As a half breed product of an English Mum and a Scottish Dad but born and bred in Scotland with half my family being English and half Scottish I can say categorically that the English think everybody, not just Ireland, but every country who’s not them are savages or nuisances or even worse

      In their defence they’re brought up and educationally propagandised that way so they know no differently, so folk who hope England will somehow change are way off the mark

      Until the world changes towards Englands bad behaviour and points out to them they are nowhere near as important to anybody as they think they are they’ll stay the same

      When you’re born and brought up to believe you have a right to rule then how can you accept you’re not, and only a lowly equal like everybody else

      Unthinkable

    50. Derek says:

      Just a question; was the basis for this cartoon the appearance on the Today programme of Ann Coulter during the last week?. It was a really strange experience.

    51. jfngw says:

      Tories moving to full attack mode, who to believe a politician or an ex-police officer. I expect revelations about police officer to emerge any time now, the forces of the establishment are converging.

      Also now that asking interviewees what their political affiliations are is a legitimate question surely every journalist should also declare their political background prior to presenting any ‘facts’ to the public.

    52. Robert Peffers says:

      Nice one, Chris,

      Not only is Trump’s country going to the dogs but so are some of his camp followers. The so called, “British”, bulldog has never represented other than England and the Westminster establishment.

      Quite appropriate really. The Bulldog is perhaps the most inbred disaster of a canine that has ever been inbred to the extent of heading towards extinction.

      The first example I ever saw has a wee story all to itself. A local bookie, (back in the days when bookies were virtually illegal), lived on a wee smallholding just outside Pumpherston. He had a wee son and a big bulldog.

      One day the wee son came in crying to his Dad that the dog had bit him. The Bookie, in his usual manner, told the wee laddie, “Ach weel awa an bit it back”. However the wee lad, still crying, went looking for his mother hoping for a bit more sympathy from her.

      On his way, though, he had to pass the dog’s kennel and the animal was lying inside the kennel with its rear end sticking out the entrance. The next thing was that there was an absolutely horrendous squeal of pain from the dog and it vanished into the dim distance still howling in great pain.

      Wee Billy had indeed bitten the big dog back on the wee stub that is the bulldog’s apology for a tail.

      Tell you what, though, that bulldog was a changed dug afterwards. It had such a fright that it began to follow the wee laddie around and was the canniest animal you could ever hope to meet. Another effect was the wee laddie had a great confidence boost and he too was a changed wee laddie.

    53. jfngw says:

      @Ruby

      My goodness I’ve just installed a Russian made z-wave z-uno to control my blinds, are they spying on what times these are opened and closed. Will these dastardly Russians go to any length to control us, Putin may at this minute be perusing my blind opening/closing habit.

    54. call me dave says:

      @jfngw

      Radio 5 last night a supporter of Greene referred to a ‘constable’ who was not as reliable as a government minister was in terms of who to believe.

      So there! 🙂

    55. Graf Midgehunter says:

      @ RUBY

      “Anyone else use Kaspersky anti-virus software?

      I’ve just had an email from Barclays who offer Kaspersky anti-virus software to customers FOC. telling me…..

      I find that a bit strange. I think I might trust Kaspersky more than the UK Gov.

      Any thoughts?I find that a bit strange. I think I might trust Kaspersky more than the UK Gov.

      Any thoughts?”
      ———

      Ruby, I’ve used Kaspersky Anti-Virus software for years and think it’s way better than anything from Norton or McAfee.
      It’s professional and easier to use, it actually works..!

      Secondly, see the cartoon above. America and Trump are up to their back teeth in dodgy dealings with Hilary baiting, Russian businessmen, fake news, right-wing shenanigens and, and, and…..

      Using Kaspersky is imho just a part of the deflection campaign which Trump and Co. are using to take the flak away from the swamp of corruption surrounding the present Whie House family clique.

      The UK poodles are jumping in with both feet as well to try and please their masters. Basically subserviant scum.

      Here on the continent/Germany the topic is barely registering on peoples minds, probably because folk here are more pragmatic and see this as an American/Trump problem (see above) and also because Germany does a lot of business with Russia and is thus more attuned to the daily way of life within the EU and its partner Russia.

    56. Robert Graham says:

      Totally o/t , The BBC have on their website a reference to Harry’s burd having to take the UK citizenship test.
      Just for a laugh I started part 1 , it starts to become obvious it’s not a UK citizen test but surprise surprise an English citizenship test.

      Who would have thought it , yet another better together bonus aren’t we lucky the BBC and the medias quest to eradicate us looks like working , if no one knows we exist who’s going to miss us , then they can sit down and enjoy their British Whisky , ah what are they like .

      Oh just for fairness they include who is the patron saint of Scotland, to placate the jocks probably.
      Nice of them eh ? .

    57. jfngw says:

      @call me dave

      Just need to throw a journalist into the mix and I will be in a complete quandary.

    58. Ian Foulds says:

      Breeks at 9.46 am. Thanks. I enjoyed that. So true, if we all (including OUR Government) extract the digit.

    59. Lenny Hartley says:

      Ruby the Russian anti virus program is that a program, any programmer who uses the same programming language can go into it line by lone and check if there is a back door to the Kremlin, the fact that they say that they can’t find any backdoors tells me that there is none, it’s a squirrel

    60. cearc says:

      Heedie,

      Green’s computer was looked at during an enquiry into a leak. This has been widely reported.

      There are two sides to this. One being if it was not illegal what is the problem, other than wasting time during working hours?

      If, say, the drug sqad turn up to search your house, find no drugs but spot 50 cases of whisky which match the ones that fell off the back of a lorry last week. Should they ignore it because it’s a different investigation?

      Personally, I tend to think that his possession of large quantities of porn on his work computer is of public interest as it is the public who employ him.

    61. call me dave says:

      Red squirrel news. 🙂

      Kaspersky internet security software banned on US government computers over Russia links

      https://archive.is/qt2na

    62. Valerie says:

      Regarding Kaspersky. It’s sounding like some joke.

      They have physical offices all over the world, including London. I used their anti virus software in the past, and it was very efficient.

      What pisses me off about these pronouncements is there is never any pretence to even give evidence.

      In other news, how noble of David Davis, the saviour of Brexit, to defend his pal’s right to have a hobby to pursue during working hours.

      It must be boring between votes. What’s a guy to do, other than peruse his porn collection.

      We remain in this Union to be demeaned by this collection of half wits, deviants and those that delight in the suffering of the general population.

    63. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Dorothy Devine Just tae be clear ave never bought any Mechelle Moan’s mammary hammocks nor her range of crutch laced frillies LoL an ahm no interested in her cheap bling jewelry , am to auld tae git ma ears pierced .

    64. schrodingers cat says:

      o/t

      Peter A Bell? @BerthanPete
      57m57 minutes ago

      Speaking at SNP National Council in Perth today, Nicola Sturgeon gave her strongest hint yet that we will be fighting an independence referendum campaign in 2018. I reserve the right to say, ah telt ye! #Referendum2018

    65. geeo says:

      With all the hysteria about Russia interfering in elections, RT being a direct link to Lucifer Morningstar etc…how strange that the English FA rocked up to the world cup draw held in THE KREMLIN and enjoyed a day of full Russian hospitality…

      Surely they should be asked why England got an easy draw…what did they promise those pesky russkies in return for getting an easy draw..???

      Inquiry, surely ???

      Ps..if ypu detected sarcasm in this post…well spotted…lol!

    66. Fiona Laing says:

      Off topic and apologies if someone else has already mentioned this in a previous thread.

      What do Scottish Water, Transport Scotland, the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service and the Scottish BMA all have in common?

      They have all felt the need to issue statements or press releases/tweets to correct misleading statements about their area of expertise given by both MSP’s and repeated by the media.

      Scottish Fire and Rescue Service – “Many public comments have been made recently about the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service which are broad brush and largely inaccurate, and which have been repeated in the Scottish Parliament and through the media.”

      BMA Scotland – ” Unfortunately, it has come to my attention that despite these efforts, inaccurate information about the proposed contract and it’s impact on rural areas has been circulated to the media and some MSP’s” . “I am extremely disappointed that incorrect information has been able to circulate in this way, and in particular regret the lurid language that some have chosen to use that will undoubtedly cause alarm to patients”

      Scottish Water’s media team Scot Water News have pinned a tweet on 27th November directing people to the part of their website explaining the governance of Scottish water making clear it is a public body.

      Transport Scotland have also required to mount a campaign to get the truth out about the works on the Queensferry Crossing.

      I can’t remember a week where 4 such disparate organisations have all felt the need to expand time and effort putting out statements where they feel both MSP’s and more notably the media are putting out inaccurate information.

      We all know this has been happening but to see such organisations having to react confirms that we’re not all paranoid. On top of Andrew Neil being found to have basically used an inaccurate Tory press release against Alex Salmond it seems that their is mounting evidence of at the very least very poor journalism with failure to factcheck or contact relevant bodies and at the worst a “conspiracy” to put out misinformation to the public to cause alarm- or that such is their visceral desire to put down the SNP they don’t care if people become alarmed and worried about health, fire, transport and water services

      Does anyone else know of any other organisations EIS etc who have had to do the same thing. It may be worth keeping copies of all such statements as they can be directly quoted back to people when needed.

    67. Simon Curran says:

      Re. Green and pornography stored on a work computer, what will strike most people is the double standards. What Green is alleged to have had on his computer may not have been illegal at the time but we all know that if that was one anyone other than an MP they would, rightly, have got the sack. It’s just a window into the souls of those who rule over us.

    68. ronnie anderson says:

      @ shrodingers cat ( I reserve the right to say, ah telt ye! ) aw naw Mr ah hiv ah share in that tellin ave been saying there wud be a GE in 2018 & the SNP would need to fight that oan a Independence Mandate , there is no point sending SNP MPs to westminster to play the same game ie being ignored .

    69. Ian Foulds says:

      Robert Graham at 1.36pm.

      My wife also tried this and we found, like you, it was generally an England citizenship test.

    70. Robert Graham says:

      Off Topic- Apologies .

      It looks like the good old USA never really let go of the McCarthy era , still shit scared of the reds under the bed hysteria .

      This latest attack on Kaspersky brings the whole commie Witch hunt season back into fashion again , yeah if it’s Russian it’s bad.

      Maybe Kaspersky refused to roll over to the NSA , refused to cooperate the way all the other big players have by allowing access to all their clients and users .

      RT are next, expect their license to be revoked.

      All the reporting on the state sponsored and funded BBC comes with the added phrase ” could ” we are not saying that the Russians are spying just that they could be , Aye ok .

    71. Bobp says:

      And nice to know that Ireland has the brits bent over a barrel.

    72. Bobp says:

      Should have added,squeal piggy squeal,ha ha ha haaaaaa.

    73. ronnie anderson says:

      @ cearc I seem to recall a MP paying for her husbands porn mags on her expenses , the question must be asked did Damion Green pay for the porn on his Ministers Credit card .

    74. Robert Graham says:

      Thanks Ian , I thought it was just me being paranoid again, I thought of complaining but just like the BBC I guess it would be made that difficult in the end you loose the will to live before you complete it .

    75. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Robert Graham Am thinking along the same lines the spooks can’t get access to Kaspersky’s data , ive used Kaspersky in the past this can only be good free advertising for Kaspersky lol .

    76. galamcennalath says:

      Bobp says:

      And nice to know that Ireland has the brits bent over a barrel.

      If there is to be any silver lining from this Brexit fiasco, it will finally be the humiliation of Perfidious Albion. They have evolved a unique superiority complex of entitlement and exceptionalism which no other nation has. (perhaps the Yanks are erring that way too)

      Maybe, just maybe, they will be brought to their knees. They have painted themselves into a corner where any outcome will make them look utterly stupid. It doesn’t matter whether they cancel Brexit or go for a cliff jumper, they will be viewed as causing damage for no reason, and no possible gain. Even anything in between will be the worst of all worlds – still confined by EU regulations, but with little say in their formulation. They may lose trade deals negotiated by the mighty EU and replace them by being ripped off by the US, India, and China.

      Lose, lose, all round. What were the dimwits thinking!?

      With every possible outcome they will have moved from potential leaders, to definite followers.

      And after all these centuries, who better that the Irish to bring them down to earth!?

      Of course I speak in the third party, them not us. Scotland needs to step out of this.

    77. Jack Murphy says:

      TODAY. OT. The Royal Grocers and Brexit. BBC London Local News:

      “The boss of Fortnum and Mason says the Brexit vote has damaged the UK’s brand.

      Ewan Venters told the BBC the store was suffering European staff shortages due to the vote with 16 of its 80 chef positions currently unfilled.

      He said Brexit had made European workers worry about their welcome and the lower pound had made working in the UK less profitable for them…………”

    78. CameronB Brodie says:

      How can we hope to understand what is happening around us, in these times of fake news and post-truth politics?

      What Feminist Epistemology Would Say to Donald Trump

      Since Donald Trump announced his candidacy for president of the United States in June 2015, the internet has exploded with reports and analyses of the candidate, with a special emphasis placed on the shocking and dramatic statements Trump has made the forefront of his campaign. As of yet, however, there has been relatively little attention paid to what feminist epistemology has to say about Trump, and his shocking and dramatic statements. This blog post is a small attempt to remedy this gap in the conversation, focusing specifically on Trump’s position as an epistemically privileged subject, and how this epistemic privilege shapes Trump’s approach to the truth….

      https://blog.apaonline.org/2016/09/27/what-feminist-epistemology-would-say-to-donald-trump/

    79. Robert Graham says:

      Fiona – Agreed and its being ratcheted up recently, I guess it’s to try and gum up the works , make it difficult for our government to operate while trying to deflect all the flack.

      It’s the same with the Flurry of FOI requests, aided and abetted by some in the YES movement who really should know better , the NUJ that bastion of fairness and equality whose members daily attack the Scottish government, and surprise surprise common space and assorted hangers on who attach themselves to the SNP for a free ride, Remember RISE and the trouble that lot caused only to emerge under a different name with the same lot at the helm .

    80. TheWasp says:

      I was on another forum last week, and a link was posted to the “UK citizenship” test. It took me four goes to pass, as I didn’t know the answers to the english questions.
      On another point, when I was working for a well known multinational, within days of the computer guidelines being tightened up concerning personal use, several employees were instantly dismissed for accessing porn in works time. No inquiry or disciplinary action, dismissal, as rules had been broken.

    81. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Fiona Laing @ 14:37,

      Well said there, Fiona.

      Regarding the incorrigible political authors of these monstrous fictions, as matters stand they’re legally free to lie through their teeth about virtually anything, as Carmichael proved beyond all doubt.

      One also wonders how much effort is made by the offending (careless or deliberate) media purveyors of these distortions and fake outrage to give the necessary corrections anything like as much coverage as the original liberties taken with the verité.

      So the damage often remains out there to be continually regurgitated among the poorly-informed.

    82. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Fiona Unfortunately those same bodies don’t demand a retraction either in print or in broadcast nor issue the media with formal notice that they will take legal action to protect their business in the case of Scottish Water .

    83. John H. says:

      My wife has just completed an online BBC survey asking the public what they think of the BBC. So she told them :-). We don’t expect a reply.

      She stumbled onto the survey while trying to get into the BBC Scotland website.

    84. ronnie anderson says:

      Anybody in receipt of benefit/tax credits or on low income or under pensionable age can get money from the Warm Homes scheme , contact your power supplier £140 can be awarded Please Share this post .

    85. geeo says:

      A tale of 2 bridges.

      Contrast the utrer hysteria of a lane closure on the queensferry crossing to this incident darn sarf, which involved a truck hanging from a bridge!!

      http://archive.is/RUk1e

      “Two lanes were shut while the incident was dealt with, which caused some traffic delays”.

      All you need to know huh ?

    86. Capella says:

      @ Ruby – I use Kaspersky. It’s very reliable and better than AVG which I used to use but it conflicted with other software and was a pain to remove. Kaspersky support is also very good.

      Best security software for we Kremlin stooges!

    87. Breeks says:

      galamcennalath says:
      2 December, 2017 at 3:23 pm
      Bobp says:

      And nice to know that Ireland has the brits bent over a barrel…

      Let’s not forget Spanish eyes on Gibraltar either. Spain, whom the UK was happy to threaten with war not so long ago, can also veto a UK free trade deal just as readily as Ireland…

      But these “individual” arguments are misrepresentative. The EU is a collective agency which negotiates as a bloc, and the bigger problem for May is Michel Barnier. The EU only agrees Free Trade agreements with non EU countries where the EU retains power to legislate over the Trade covered by the agreement, so the EU is in control of standards and compliance. The UK however is fishing for a Trade Deal but is openly disparaging of the European Court of Justice and the Four Freedoms which are central to the EU’s economic trade, and has been very vocal about widespread deregulation – precisely the things which Barnier does NOT want to hear.

      Westminster has championed its great repeal bill will strip the EU of its powers over the UK, leaving Michel Barnier with a Trade Deal where the EU is no longer in charge of the legislative control, and which does not respect the Four Freedoms which are indivisible to the EU. The more the UK wants to diverge away from EU standards and protocols, the very “taking back control” they are currently boasting about, the progressively narrower and more remote the options for any Trade Deal become. The British head strong arrogance is catastrophically stupid, claiming to want a Trade Deal, but doing everything possible to sink the prospects of ever getting one.

      Scotland has to break away before our interests are irreparably damaged, because they will be. The EU does not recognise our sovereignty, does not respect our capacity as international interlocutor, and until that changes, like it or not, Westminster speaks for Scotland.

      And don’t be complacent about EFTA membership for Scotland either. Yes, if it could be agreed, and that isn’t as straight forward as people imagine, (see previous paragraph), EFTA Membership could in theory maintain access to the EU’s single market, but that does not extend access and protection to the 3rd Party Free Trade Deals which the EU has with over 140 non-EU nation’s; Canada, Indonesia, Mexico, South Africa, Morocco, Egypt, to name a few, plus further FTA’s currently being negotiated with India, Brazil, Argentina and vast areas of Africa.

      Scotland in EFTA could trade with Europe yes, but Scotland would lose existing EU protection and require its own Trade Negotiations with each of these other 140 countries, and would need these agreements in place quickly to prevent for example, bootleg production of “Scotch” Whisky which is made abroad but sold and marketed as Scottish.

      Scotland is both a manufacturer and global exporter of high end Scottish brand products which bootleggers and pirates would readily capitalise upon. Inside Europe, we would have the collective voice of Europe to speak up and protect our interests. Just as Donald Tusk says about Ireland and Brexit, if Ireland is unhappy, then the EU is unhappy.

      I agree, the EU has Westminster over a barrel, but Scotland has to decide whether it too is held over the same barrel as part of the UK, or whether we seek to hold Westminster over a barrel of our own.

    88. galamcennalath says:

      What is it with Daily Express and violent language in headlines!?

      In the past we the following have appeared in headlines, always in capitals, always in context of what one persons did to another person or group.

      “SLAPS DOWN”
      “SAVAGES”
      “DESTROYS”
      “SLAMS”
      “LOSES IT”
      “SLAPPED DOWN”
      “LASHES OUT”
      “ROASTED”

      They really need to back off from this behaviour.

    89. Dr Jim says:

      Damian Green:

      It’s all a storm in a secluded wooded area where backpacking naked young American girls accidently Ooops!

      Does the free porn count as Baad? Says David Davis, because I haven’t seen this one yet

      Not that Iv’e seen any either you understand said his mate the Judge who’ll let him get away with it for a copy of that one

      For evidence! evidence!!

    90. Petra says:

      Great cartoon Chris. Clearly sums up the current situation, once again.

      As the winds of change swirl around the heads of the Trump cabal, Mike Spence, his Depute, attempts to distance himself from the corruption and stands waiting patiently in the background for his turn to be President. Spence et al, some say, being Christianities answer to Afghanistan’s Taliban.

      Trump and Spence do have a great deal in common however they differ in one major respect. Trump’s background is as a Protestant, as Spence’s is as a fervent Roman Catholic. Trump has been influenced by his mother who at the very least was a great admirer of the Monarchy. Spence learned his stories of the English / Irish relationship sitting on his grandfather’s knee and through many childhood visits to his relatives in County Clare. He often mentions his grandfather’s influence on him in his speeches and that his grandfather did a stint in the Irish Army (constituted initially from IRA volunteers) before leaving Ireland in 1923. He also holds the Oireachtas in high regard.

      Just mentioning this as I doubt Mike Spence holds Theresa May and Westminster in high regard. If he becomes President in the near future will it make a difference in relation to trade deals with the UK? Will he always plump for putting Ireland ‘first’. What does he think of the DUP, lol? More than anything I wonder if his opinion of Scottish Independence differs from Trumps?

      ……………………………..

      Some great posts on here today such as Breeks (9:41am), Phronesis (12:02pm) and Fiona Laing (2:37pm), to name but a few.

      And Breeks at 11:13pm ….. “Is it just me – DUP influence.”

      No it’s not just you Breeks. I’ve also pointed out previously that it’s totally incongruous, and utterly dangerous, for the DUP to have such influence over the Westminster Government and by extension of course over us. To add insult to injury the Scots are forking out financially to support this coalition from hell. I’ve started informing some elderly Roman Catholic individuals (no voters), friends of my mother-in-law, about the state of affairs. They’re absolutely horrified and I’m hoping as the implications sink in, given time to check it out / think about it, their attitudes to independence will change.

      Thanks for your post Fiona. It looks as though the biased MSM has gone too far. Hell mend them. And yes I agree that it would be a good idea to list all such statements which could be used effectively when required.

    91. heedtracker says:

      They really need to back off from this behaviour.

      Its just the usual fascist stuff, UK style. If indy ref2 is nearly “next year” away, watch the whole tory media start demanding arrests and jail time, Catalan style.

    92. cirsium says:

      @Fiona Laing, 2.37pm
      Good post, Fiona. Another example, would be the BBC Scotland’s misinformation about accommodation on Skye at the height of the summer tourist season which Police Scotland had to squelch.

      @Ruby, 12.04pm
      Kaspersky Lab’s business is to help customers defend their computer systems against cyberattack. It has a global reputation. Kaspersky Lab helped identify the malicious computer worm, Stuxnet, the software which disabled the Iranian nuclear research programme. Kaspersky Lab also identified cybersurveillance worms, Duqu and Flame, which use coding related to Stuxnet. The US/UK governments are now advising that this cybersecurity business should not be used because it is Russian. This advice has the same provenance as the Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction.

    93. Thepnr says:

      @Breeks

      EFTA Membership could in theory maintain access to the EU’s single market, but that does not extend access and protection to the 3rd Party Free Trade Deals which the EU has with over 140 non-EU nation’s; Canada, Indonesia, Mexico, South Africa, Morocco, Egypt, to name a few, plus further FTA’s currently being negotiated with India, Brazil, Argentina and vast areas of Africa.

      Scotland in EFTA could trade with Europe yes, but Scotland would lose existing EU protection and require its own Trade Negotiations with each of these other 140 countries, and would need these agreements in place quickly to prevent for example, bootleg production of “Scotch” Whisky which is made abroad but sold and marketed as Scottish.

      Breeks that statement is factually incorrect, EFTA has in place it’s own Free Trade agreements with many of these countries including the 5 that you mentioned in your post that the EU also have an agreement with, the exception being Indonesia with which it is currently in talks.

      If Scotland became a member of EFTA it would not need to negotiate with any countries with which EFTA already had an agreement in place. See link for full list of countries.

      http://www.efta.int/free-trade/free-trade-agreements

      Here’s some background to the why/when/how these treaties came about.

      EFTA began to negotiate FTAs around the world in the 1990s. Today, EFTA’s network of preferential trade relations consists of 25 FTAs covering 36 countries…

      Because EFTA is a free trade area not requiring the harmonisation of member countries external trade policies, EFTA members are free to decide their own trade policies towards third countries. They have therefore signed bilateral FTAs with a number of third countries. The Iceland-China FTA, China’s first with a European country, is one noteworthy example…

      For the most part, EFTA has been able to speak with one voice whilst allowing its individual members to decide their own bilateral policies.

      Note that “EFTA members are free to decide their own trade policies towards third countries.” This could be a very important issue when it comes to trade with the rest of the UK once Scotland is Independent. In theory we could have a single market and customs union with the rUK if we and they so choose.

      http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2016/580918/EPRS_BRI(2016)580918_EN.pdf

    94. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 17:42:

      This could be a very important issue when it comes to trade with the rest of the UK once Scotland is independent. In theory we could have a single market and customs union with the rUK if we and they so choose.

      Note the “they” there. Which of course dumps us right back into same old BritNat/rUK dependency in indyref2 that the EFTA advocates incorrectly claim we would somehow be free of. Just one example of how EFTA isn’t the “get out of jail free” card that some too easily assume.

      (Yes, I know it would ultimately be different in practice post-indy, just like currency last time, but why gift any lever to our opponents beforehand all the same?)

      Whereas being continuing members of the EU in our own right gives us enhanced power, as Ireland is demonstrating so very clearly right now. The EU gives that wee country a serious influence multiplier. It is the example that we could emulate.

      As we are seeing, rUK just can’t take on the EU, and the BritNats won’t be able to use that scare on us next time. In fact it could be the other way round, if we are smart enough to deploy it.

    95. Gary45% says:

      Heeds@5.00
      Aye and the Daily Heil/ Shortbread etc daily headline Nikla Sturjin ate ma hamster.

    96. call me dave says:

      Children’s commissioner may consider legal action over Universal Credit BBC website.

      https://archive.is/p7syA

      OK but there is a lovely picture promoting labour
      Good old auntie! 🙂

    97. Robert Graham says:

      And so it begins this establishment are so predictable ,

      Mr Green caught in the library with eh oops (censored ) ,

      Mr Plod who discovered Mr Green his previous good record is now being rubbished his character dragged through the dirt,

      Before we know it he will be charged with loading photos on to greens computer aided by those pesky reds kaspersky.

      Yes folks this evil British establishment really believe we are all bleedn stupid , we have seen them in action before ,it wasnt convincing the first time round ,using the same tactics again is just plain stupid .

    98. jfngw says:

      Two Unions:

      First one ‘we will honour the wishes of all our members regarding any negotiations’.

      Second one, ‘shut up and do as you are told, we voted out so you are out, the opinion of your nation is irrelevant’.

    99. Thepnr says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      Note the “they” there. Which of course dumps us right back into same old BritNat/rUK dependency in indyref2 that the EFTA advocates incorrectly claim we would somehow be free of.

      Robert I fail to see your arguement here. If Scotland remains in the EU and rUK is out then we are in exactly the same quandry that is the Ireland/N. Ireland border.

      That quandry can’t be sorted without some “special deal” that involves EU and UK agreement and we can see how much trouble that is proving to be.

      My point is that Scotland in EFTA would NOT need EU agreement to come to it’s own arrangement with rUK over any deal. Sure the rUK could decide to cut off it’s nose to spite it’s face and give us a hard time. Is that likely? Somehow I doubt it.

      EFTA would give us an option to have “no hard border” with England. Being in the EU doesn’t give Scotland that option, it’s as simple as that.

    100. Capella says:

      Kaspersky may be too much of a threat for our cybergoons. Like RT, they don’t kowtow to the British Establishment and probably not the US elite either.
      I now seem to operate on the principle that, if the British Government and the rabid media and the BBC say it’s a BAD thing, then it must be good in some way.
      General rule of thumb.

    101. starlaw says:

      After brexit the EU will hold all the cards over UK. Any spiteful action Westminster took against Ireland The EU could take similar action against UK. The UK is almost totally reliant on EU for foodstuffs and parts for its manufacturing plants. and the UK know it. The DUP will continue to support the Tories they have no where else to go. If the people of NI have to choose between EU and UK its a no contest and the DUP know it. Westminster with all its austerity has ensured that.

    102. galamcennalath says:

      Just spotted this on Twitter….

      David Allen Green
      @davidallengreen

      Brexit was to mean UK taking back control of its borders, its money and its laws.

      Now:

      Ireland decides what happens about the border.

      UK to pay €50-100 billion to EU.

      ECJ likely to keep jurisdiction during transition, for foreseeable future.

      Not what was intended, really.

      The word “intended” is the interesting one here. It could equally say “planned”. Plan? What plan?

      The pish that was spouted by the Leave folks who sold the idea of a cherry picked best of everything without all the bad bits, was fantasy. Nothing more. No substance no possibility of actually happening. It was a mix of deceit, ignorance, arrogance, and wishingful thinking maybe.

      Those Leavers who wanted (still want) to crash out with no deal, no payments, no EU interference at least had/have a scenario which is possible. Their flaw is, the damage would/will be massive. Of course they hide that embarrassing reality,

      Soon we may hear if Trade Talks begin. If they do then the result will be a long way from the fantasy picture peddled to voters.

      We may of course hear that no Trade Talks will begin. That takes us one step closer to the cliff jump. And the results of that will be even further from anything Leave voters hoped for.

      The consensus seems to be Leave voters wanted a curb on immigration, but not at the cost of being poorer or unemployed!

      What the shadowy people behind Brexit wanted, well, that’s something quite different.

    103. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 18:33,

      My argument is fairly obvious, I would have thought. If we go into indyref2 saying we can join EFTA and thus be free to arrange our own trade deal with rUK, all the BritNats will line up together, just like last time with currency, and say “no you won’t, because we’ll refuse and you can go hang since we’re bigger and stronger than you.

      It may be a lot of pish, but people will believe it.

      But you are correct, staying in the EU would likely put up some kind of harder border with rUK. One of the UK’s entire making I should add. I think we’ll have to recognise that reality now. The way things are going, there’s no easy way out. There’s going to be a hard border somewhere whatever. That’s the consequence of UKGov’s decision.

      It would make a whole lot more sense if the UK as-is were to stay in the single market and the customs union, as the SG keeps vainly trying to persuade the UKGov to do. But entirely fruitlessly. Brexit is going to be some variant of hard and nothing is going to change that, so it’s time to stop pathetically trying to mitigate this thing away, and start seriously upping the ante.

      Being in the EU puts us on the bigger and stronger side instead. The tables are turned. As we are seeing by the day, the UK is having to adjust its manifest self-delusions to EU realities. Whatever trade deal they reach will be to the EU advantage, and it would be to our advantage too.

      Which is why the Irish situation is so interesting. The cull of UKOK pretensions. This is going to become more and more obvious by the day. What Ireland shows it can do, iScotland can clearly also do. No BritNat counter argument possible.

    104. Gary45% says:

      starlaw@6.59
      Basically,
      We’re FKD if we do and we’re FKD if we don’t.
      Hopefully the message is getting out to the electorate that there is a better path to follow. Indy is the only way.

    105. scottieDog says:

      @Thepnr
      Correct and we can say – yes EU is the preference but the English and Welsh electorate have made that impractical hence efta as the compromise.
      We have said that is a good way for the uk to go -:and we would support it. They have refused and hence leave us no option but to put it to the Scottish electorate alone.

    106. Breeks says:

      I stand partially corrected Thepnr, but not completely. Scotland’s Trade with the EU is existing, whereas Scotland’s Trade through EFTA would be a new scenario with ramifications for agreed quotas. Scotland would have to negotiate its way into those quotas for a share, or renegotiate deals which do not adequately cover Scottish products. As far as I know, neither Norway, Iceland or Switzerland manufacture their own Whisky, so why would such trade feature in their trade deals?

      In such negotiations, Scotland would be negotiating its case alone and bilaterally. In Europe, negotiations are collective, and you would have the bargaining clout and volume of trade to agree better deals.

      If there is no free quota for the “new” trade, then if I understand correctly, WTO tariffs will apply.

      This is also going to be a massive hurdle for rUK to join EFTA, because of the impact the UK’s economy would have on EFTA.

    107. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      me @ 19:15,

      And I should add, there have been some Leavers arrogantly telling the Irish that since so much of their trade is still with the UK (albeit changing fast), the Republic should follow big brother UK out of the EU.

      The response has been a predicatable hearty two-fingered salute.

      I truly envy their self-confidence. We should have the cojones to do exactly the same, instead of all this pussy-footing about, trying to pretend that we can have some kind of nice cosy Brexit-Lite of our own and it will be “all right on the night”. Well, it won’t.

    108. Ruby says:

      What annoys me most about the Kaspersky nonsense is that the only reason I have kept a Barclays Bank account is because they offered free Kaspersky for a PC, a Mac and a mobile device.
      They haven’t said they will be offering an alternative anti-virus. I might have to withdraw my £25!

      That’s me £400 out of pocket because I bought my Mac after Brexit when the £ when down and now no free Kaspersky!!!!

      Is there any good news about Brexit. and being ‘Better Together’ in the UK?

    109. cearc says:

      A hard border twixt Scotland and England would not really be a huge problem. We don’t have the nearly 300 road crossings that Ireland has, nor the numbers of cross border workers. In addition border posts create a small economic boost in their immediate environs, banks/bureau de change, shops etc.

      A pretty small price to pay for Independence.

    110. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ruby @ 19:30,

      Oh, don’t worry, the UK get a great special deal with China and the £50 Apple clones will come pouring in…

      …oh, wait a minute, we’re supposed to be protecting all our home-grown producers, “Britain First”, aren’t we, seeing as how we’ll be “in control” again, won’t we…?

      … won’t we…?

    111. Thepnr says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      I know with 100% certainty that you and I are only wanting what’s best for an Independent Scotland. Where we differ is how that may best be achieved in the short term.

      I really would rather be in the EU than out of it, that’s a given but and it’s a big but. In watching how the EU leaders responded to what happened and is happening in Catalonia I don’t have too much faith in their support for an Independent Scotland.

      Whereas with all the noises that have come from in particular Alex Salmond and to a lesser extent Nicola Sturgeon about the EFTA route then I do think that is where we are headed for now.

      Provided that a Yes to Independence vote is achievable in another referendum, that is still in the balance of course and we will have the fight of our lives on to make it happen.

      I believe we are a “shoo in” for membership of EFTA which is far from the case of remaining members of the EU or how long it might be if Scotland needed to reapply after we are out.

      It is for this reason alone that the SNP leadership are heading in the direction of EFTA. They want and need support and it’s possible that the leadership of the EFTA countries will publicly state YES we will accept an Independent Scotland as a member. That’s something the EU leaders will never do. So removing another layer of “uncertainty”.

      Let’s face it Scotland WILL be out along with the UK and it will be no easy matter in a short time to rejoin. Compromise where necessary, EU or EFTA means absolutely nothing before Independence.

      Focus all our energies on that, becoming Independent. Play the hands that we are dealt with and the path will become clearer. I appreciate that a time will come when the SG needs to be upfront on what it’s plans are before another referendum takes place. They will need concrete policies on Europe, currency, the border ect. all of which can be backed up by facts. I trust them to put this all together in order to give us our best chance of winning.

      Until then I would rule out nothing and EFTA remains an option.

    112. schrodingers cat says:

      re efta eu membership

      there is a difference between campaigning and winning indyref2 and the reality we will face immediately after we win.

      i personally think the eu will be begging us to join after a yes vote but we still need to win and the discussion should be on what is the best policy to adopt which gives us the greatest chances of winning.

      for me, that is efta, for many of the reasons the pnr pointed out

    113. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 19:48,

      There’s a huge difference between preparing people for EFTA as a possible necessary stepping-stone to a transition into the EU in our own right (as other EU members have previously done), and EFTA as an end in itself, motivated largely by trying – vainly in my view – to appease a minority protectionist element.

      SNP policy on EFTA hasn’t changed, and when questioned precisely on this point, Nicola has made it quite clear that SNP policy is still to remain in the EU. But if the party does swing behind EFTA as an end in itself, I believe it will be a catastrophic misjudgement that will lose us an eventual indyref2. Brexit-Lite is too weak to inspire anything like enough conversions. Maybe none at all, as even all the new Yessers lose all incentive and motivation.

      (That’s why I do worry that the SNP have lately lost a lot of their esprit de combat, and hence are bleeding support, as at the last UKGE. A self-defeating passivity.)

      You are indeed correct to say that EU officialdom is lukewarm – fearful in fact – about independence movements changing the borders of nation states. That much has become clear. But we, by wishing to remain in the EU while trapped in an existing polity that is heading for the exit, have a unique advantage. While the EU will likely, as a consequence, remain neutral during any referendum campaign, once we show sufficient mettle by voting to become independent and creating a fait-accompli, they will quickly bow to political realities and expedite our membership. I don’t think anyone seriously doubts this possibility, provided we are willing to take it. The only thing that remains unclear is how that transition would be arranged. If it takes a promised post-indy referendum to validate the terms of any agreement, that would be a perfectly reasonable platform to take into indytref2.

      In the meantime, ordinary people are slowly coming round to realising that any kind of Brexit is a total economic fuc catastrophe however you slice it, and to abandon that potential rising tide of opinion just as it is beginning to flow would be to wantonly throw away a truly “once-ever” winning chance.

    114. Liz g says:

      Cearc @ 7.44
      I’m wi you Cearc I’m no all that fussed about a hard border either.
      In the early decades of Indy having a physical demarcation line might no bad a bad thing.

      Ireland however in this instance will teach us much!
      I think what Westminster are trying to do is to tell the EU
      “Youse are,the one’s concerned about yer precious standards, we don’t care what the North sells into the South,we are all about the marker dear boy!!
      You want a border, you put it up and you pay or it”
      Then we will get “Our citizens in Northern Ireland said they didn’t want a border.
      So the democratic thing to do was not put one up.
      That Wisnay us that wiz Dublin and Brussels” that did it.

      We on the other hand have mibbi a bit more to worry about with Brand Protection…. All this Union Jackory going on!
      What is to stop Westminster, importing our good’s and slapping oan a jack and selling them on as British.
      They always wanted to keep the UK/British label and we know that those labels are always interchangeable,and that not many make the distinction.
      Therefore between EFTA & the EU Scotland’s best bet is to pick the block that has the fastest Brand Protection and go for that one.

    115. schrodingers cat says:

      rjs
      If it takes a promised post-indy referendum to validate the terms of any agreement, that would be a perfectly reasonable platform to take into indytref2.
      —————

      agree with this
      but another euref need not include the options of leave or single market access, only what sort of eu membership(full, no euro etc) or not

      brexit is a disaster because the uk is leaving the single market, not the because it is leaving the eu.
      the uk would have been alright had it opted for efta/eea membership, indeed the norway option was farage’s prefered option. but without the free movement of people.

      they were told time and again by the eu that this was not an option. the penny is now beginning to drop

    116. Iain mhor says:

      Re: Kaspersky.
      A Synopsis.
      Kaspersky AV (and others) use a form of ‘heuristic’ and signature analysis.
      Signatures are the known virus/malware code, easily matched from a local database on your PC and recognisable.
      ‘Heuristics’ is a way of analyzing and flagging something which has the characteristics of known virus/malware code, as potentially bad.

      This has two parts.
      The first, the software informs you of something which it thinks is potentially bad and may ‘quarantine’ it locally on your PC.
      The second part is the issue : this is where the AV software copies and sends suspicious files back to the lab for analysis – Almost all major AV players utilse this form of collecting suspicious files for analysis. It’s how they spot new variants etc.

      The story as currently known:
      A US government contractor had Kaspersky installed, removed Kaspersky AV to install a dodgy copy of Microsoft office and re-installed Kaspersky AV.
      The AV found a virus signature in the dodgy copy of ‘Office’ when it was re-installed. During its subsequent full scan it picked up many ‘unknown viral signatures’ and sent them back to Kaspersky.
      However, these signatures were because the contractor had a shedload of classified US Intelligence ‘hacking’ tools and software on his machine.

      The ‘what’ and by ”whom’ is being argued about.
      Was it really routine collection of some dodgy looking code and stuff? Did Russian ‘Cyber Agents’ intercept it and went and blagged the rest? Is Kaspersky AV actively an agent of cyber-espionage? Has Russian Intelligence turned Kaspersky AV into a virtual ‘botnet’ (With or without Kaspersy’s knowledge) scouring the planet for secrets and goodies, not just with “Heuristics” Was it a setup by someone else, even a black-flag operation?
      More importantly – Who cares?

      How did the US gov’t discover that their classified software & other files had been ‘hoovered up’ by Kaspersky AV?
      Israeli intelligence squatting in the systems saw it and alerted the US govt. They were already hacked in both US gov’t & Kaspersky servers with ability to monitor and exfiltrate or implant data themselves.
      Quite, quite fascinating cyberspace…

      Shades of Campaign for Free Galilee meeting the Judean Peoples front if you like haha!

      So there you have it. Can Kaspersky AV clandestinely monitor you? No more than Google, GCHQ and a hundred others tracking your every move right now. However, if you do hold some intriguing software code on your PC, I have some bad news…

      Sleep easy, nobody much cares what you have, until you become “a person of interest”
      Which is everyone who posts here probably, Lol!
      You can be sure the database is already easily searchable for everyone’s personal details.
      Live with it. Facebook and a shed-load of advertisers have as well. More than most can conceive. But most here probably only want to not lose the grandchildren’s photos to a virus. If it’s good enough for Nation States, it’s good enough for me ?

    117. schrodingers cat says:

      Liz g says:

      I’m wi you Cearc I’m no all that fussed about a hard border either.

      me neither, but the point here is what is the best policy to win indyref2? rebuilding hadrians wall is a difficult sell,

    118. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 20:56,

      You are right, in the short term it’s all about how best to “sell” the concept of independence. (And I don’t mean that in any false way.) It has to be both about minimising irrational fears and about inspiring people about possibilities.

      That’s why I think Ireland will be a good exemplar here. If they show how Brexit can be handled with the EU at their backs, it might neutralise several concerns here and make people better appreciate the advantages of sovereignity within a co-operative of states.

      Still an evolving situation, this, which doesn’t make it easy to navigate right now.

      There will have to be an adjustment process post-indy though, however it happens, and I think that’s something we have to be more open about than last time. People don’t trust excessive optimism.

      PS: I did very much enjoy your wee McGonagall-esque spoof on the Quensferry Crossing Disaster yesterday. =grin=

    119. cearc says:

      Rebujilding Hadrian’s wall none of our business, purely a matter for the north of England where it is situated.

      At present when travelling to England you need to get english banknotes as not many places will accept oujrs. If you fly you need a passport (or official id) to board a plane. Customs clearance in an airport just fills in some of the time you have to wait for baggage. Even without baggage passport checks are a trivial delay when added to security screening.

      On trains, passports are usually checked on the train casing no delays. By road it is about the same as going onto a toll road of which there are quite a few in England.

      So, just tell people. it’s no big deal for private travellers and if we are in the EU/EFTA businesses will route most of their trade through EU ports, it is only goods actually going to England that will be affected. It will provide a big boost to our sea and air ports.

      I wonder how many people travel to England compared to, say, Spain etc.

    120. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers cat 8.56
      Yip we’re on the same page, it’s all aboot The Indy!

      We should not let a border going up be used as a Threat.
      We cannot control if Westminster do or they don’t,and just saying
      ( not you personally) that they “probably”won’t as it wouldn’t be in their interests (Brexit…FFS) is not good enough any more.

      I’m getting at remove the concept as a Threat.
      As in, something like…

      We don’t need to plan for a border it’s no actually necessary for Independence but if you insist England….here is how WE will make good use of it…… World’s Newest and Oldest Border get it on yer Bucket list!!!that sort of thing.
      Look at what Gretna did and could only do because it’s on the Scottish Border!
      If I was saying let’s make any new Border a Word Famous wedding location right now as a new idea… some would think me mad….but it worked!
      We are also not in anything like the position of Northern Ireland,where our Border is and should be is no in dispute,so why be frightened of one?
      The minute it stops being a “Hadrian’s Wall” type of Threat and becomes an opportunity it’s not in the way of our vote,and that’s the tact I’m suggesting.
      And I take that view because as I have said ….we can’t control what Westminster do….
      Or believe what they say they will do.
      But we can and I think should, make our own plans!

    121. Albert Herring says:

      The Irish border is totally different from the Scotland/England border. The former is an internal border imposed by a foreign power, while the latter is a international border.

    122. Thepnr says:

      @Liz g

      Any border is a barrier to trade unless the countries involved are in a customs union. This would potentially be the case between an Independent Scotland and an rUK out of the EU.

      If goods are subject to tariffs for example it would be a huge hindrance. That is exactly we are all complaining about now with regard to trade between the EU and the UK once we are out.

      Indyref2 will now be fought under different terms than the first was, back then we expected that the UK would remain in the EU and so too would Scotland. Clearly that is no longer going to be the case.

      The “border issue” will replace the currency issue once the next campaign gets underway, you can be certain of that. “The UK single market is worth 4 x times the trade with the EU” ect. ect.

      This has to be nailed down or if left to it’s own and the manipulation of the BBC and other media could be our downfall.

    123. Rock says:

      Donald Trump has exposed the lying hypocrite leaders of western “democracies” as never before.

      I doubt if a single one of them is any better than him.

      They are only slicker with their diplomacy.

      I would rather have a Donald Trump than a Tony Blair or Saint Theresa of England and Wales.

    124. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “What Trump will do is go to war, with North Korea probably, bettertogether with his useful UK idiots.”

      Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend, should the west not have attacked North Korea instead of Iraq, if it was “democracy” and “human rights” they cared about, instead of cheap oil?

      For the record, if reading the lying, warmongering British Nationalist The Guardian helps you keep sane, then I have no problem with it.

    125. Rock says:

      schrodingers cat,

      “Speaking at SNP National Council in Perth today, Nicola Sturgeon gave her strongest hint yet that we will be fighting an independence referendum campaign in 2018.”

      Did she really utter the “i” word?

      What exactly did she say?

      Has she finally abandoned her pursuit of a separate deal for Scotland in the EU?

      Whatever happened to her “experts” who were going to find ways for a seperate deal for Scotland in the EU?

    126. galamcennalath says:

      A fascist, a sexist, and a racist walked into a bar … so the barman says, “what will it be Mr President?”

      (Courtesy on Na Trad on BBC Alba)

    127. Ian Brotherhood says:

      ‘Simply put, there is no Media Industry anywhere that can cook up a dish of pure BS, mixed with mendacity, seasoned with utter falsehoods and garnished with libel like the Brits.’

      http://stateofthenation2012.com/?p=87585#more-87585

    128. schrodingers cat says:

      rjs

      ah the Tay, the Tay, the silvery Tay
      gings in an’ oot, twice a day 🙂

      once indy, i think a border would benefit scotland for a miriad of reasons

      but that isnt the point. we still need to win indyref2 and the uk “single market” and our exports to england will be the BT2’s main attack line. the idea of a border will be one of their main platforms to do this.

      the issue of englands trade with scotland wont even get a mentioned. but fyi, england stripped scotland of its manufacturing base years ago. what is left is raw materials. england however produces very little which is unique to england. once indy, why would tescos in glasgow import heinz beans or coca cola or a BMW from england 10% more expensive than from the ROI/EU ? they wont, englands exports to scotland will shrivel to nothing and the people in Scotland wont even notice. we should down play this fact but highlight scotlands actual exports.

      scotlands exports to england and the ROW are made up of 82%

      oil, water, electricity, timber, seed potatoes, whisky, gas, fish, gas, salmon, petrol and stud beef.

      these products cannot be grown or produced in england.

    129. schrodingers cat says:

      Rock

      i dunno, i wasnt there, i meerly posted peter bells tweet.
      but i think, as do many here, that sept 2018 will be the date of indyref2. i think the rev thinks spring 2019.

    130. Moonlight says:

      About the border. There will need to be one somewhere between the EU and the third party states.
      Gretna sounds ideal to me. Not a huge number of roads cross the border, land in the area is fairly undeveloped and sparsely populated. Open between Scotland and all of the island of Ireland.
      But and there is a but. To show we are serious investment needs to take place into the facilities required. Dundee has lots of underused dock space, so investment now in modern container handling facilities ready for the day. Something for the SNP council to think about, great opportunity for development and prosperity.
      Rosyths ro ro facilities need an upgrade as well, quiet since DFDS decided that “Scotlands Ferry” should run from Hull.
      Prestwick is ideal for ultra long haul aviation and the rail connections can simply be upgraded to connect all of Scotland and northern England.
      A litle preparedness, at not much cost will go a long way to convince our doubters that we have the facilities to completely bypass England if needs be.
      Meantime, just keep voting SNP at every opportunity. Plenty of time after independence for different factions to arise and put their case.

    131. schrodingers cat says:

      Thepnr says:

      The “border issue” will replace the currency issue once the next campaign gets underway, you can be certain of that. “The UK single market is worth 4 x times the trade with the EU” ect. ect.

      This has to be nailed down or if left to it’s own and the manipulation of the BBC and other media could be our downfall.
      ————————

      agreed

      actual figures for our trade with england are difficult to come by and generally made up by the yoons

      although, i did see an article that showed the biggest load flown out of heathrow in any year was scottish salmon. whisky is accredited as english produce etc,

      but we can work out what we produce over all and create our own stats, as i did above

    132. Famous15 says:

      There is so much in the Brexit rhetoric that can be used to spike the anti independence propaganda and I hope there are researchers collecting the quotes from Davis et al.

      The 4 times the trade with the rUK versus the EU. has no downside problem if we use the same arguments as the UK Government does in its Brexiteering. There are many other arguments where
      they have shot their own fox so to say!

      Rock on Nicola! Hope it is true!

    133. Grouse Beater says:

      Your essential weekend reading:

      Scotland’s Guide to exit Brexit: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-mcT
      Car museums: Wheels of Desire: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-mcu

    134. schrodingers cat says:

      Liz g says:

      We don’t need to plan for a border it’s no actually necessary for Independence but if you insist England….here is how WE will make good use of it…… World’s Newest and Oldest Border get it on yer Bucket list!!!that sort of thing.
      —————

      too complicated Liz, bear in mind we would need the bbc and the msm to give this a fair hearing. and we both know that wont happen. better to keep it simple.

      since all seed potatoes and fish in england come from scotland,
      shame if those brit favourites, fish and chips and a bag of smoky bacon were to disappear 🙂

    135. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 22:03:

      The “border issue” will replace the currency issue once the next campaign gets underway, you can be certain of that. “The UK single market is worth 4 x times the trade with the EU” etc. etc.

      schrodingers cat @ 22:50:

      …the idea of a border will be one of their main platforms to do this.

      the issue of england’s trade with scotland wont even get a mention.

      Absolutely, I agree with both of you on that. It was an issue the last time of course, where we were supposed to be out of the EU in the cold, but it will be back, together with a resurrection of the “blood and soil” scare about the “cleaving of families”. Richly ironic really given the Leaver claim to be hot on controlling borders.

      We should certainly be ready to equalise that thing: what happens one way happens the other too. We have the electricity, the oil and the whisky, but we have to be able to rebut their expected claim that they will boycott us and buy their energy from anyone but us. Aye richt.

      All of this kind of attempted bullying is totally neutralised if we aim to stay in the EU, I would remind.

      However, whatever its actual form, we can’t deal with the inevitable border issue like last time by simply trying to pretend that a Scotland:England border has a cost-free option. There isn’t one. It would be much more easier if the SG’s urging, or hard negotiating reality, coupled with a change of UKGo were to occur, but how likely is that?

      Last time we didn’t get this right; people thought our offer too unrealistic, and therefore implausible. That’s why we have to be more hard-nosed and upfront next time, in order to be more believable. Provided we also have a plausible plan. That’s why I believe the Irish border issue will prove very instructive. It will reveal UK reality and expose any later attempted fable.

      (The Irish border question might of course cause the UKGov to fall instead, if the DUP take a strop and pull the plug. What an almighty guddle. Who wants to share a country with these morons?)

    136. ScottieDog says:

      The Uk ‘single market’ is effectively the UK economic straight jacket. As I mentioned to the tuba player on social media recently how can you have a ‘single market’ when one government exerts power over both entities. According to him that isn’t the case. So I’ve been living in an independent Scotland all along!

      Of course if they wish to play that game then EFTA skewers the argument. I suppose we could use that better together phrase ‘Best of Both worlds’. If WM wants to play hard to get then they lose big time.

      I noticed Chris deerin shout that England should declare independence from the UK. I’m sure mr angry from Grimsby might like the idea but There is absolutely no chance ANY MP in England (including the uber-brexiteers) will call for that. Reason: economic suicide. You have an economy dominated by financial services – aka ponzi fiat economy backed by Scotland’s resources.
      Overnight their trade deficit would soar and the currency depreciate. An increase trade deficit somewhere is balanced by a trade surplus elsewhere. That surplus would be enjoyed here unless they really cut of their nose to spite their face. They would be hugely dependent on imported gas and (nuclear) energy until the Hinckley white elephant arrives.

      Independent England isn’t viable.

    137. heedtracker says:

      Rock says:
      2 December, 2017 at 10:13 pm
      heedtracker,

      “What Trump will do is go to war, with North Korea probably, bettertogether with his useful UK idiots.”

      You’re just another unionist arsehole Rock. Compare, contrast, tory scumbags have been doing since the FibDems got them in.

      https://www.snp.org/the_cost_of_tory_government

      In a Scotland blessed with great wealth, scumbag tories loot and pillage.

      Orange Hitler, satire what you do not see anywhere in mainstream UKOK media gimp network, I mean, imagine Pacific Quay liggers making UKOK telly like,

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duAv7Sc8jwk

    138. Old Pete says:

      Just heard on the BBC the usual England means UK means England nonsense. Why can’t we be like Eire and escape from English clutches, they don’t in the main rate us so why do so many of us want to be with them so much?

    139. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “You’re just another unionist arsehole Rock. Compare, contrast, tory scumbags have been doing since the FibDems got them in.”

      Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend, should the west not have attacked North Korea instead of Iraq, if it was “democracy” and “human rights” they cared about, instead of cheap oil?

    140. Rock says:

      Old Pete,

      “Just heard on the BBC the usual England means UK means England nonsense. Why can’t we be like Eire and escape from English clutches”

      Robert Peffers (4th February – The Sirens):

      “The Irish, whether they like it or not, live in the British Isles and are thus British. If they choose to claim not to be British then, like you, they have conceded their right to be British to the United Kingdom.”

      Rock (4th February – The Sirens):

      “Conceded”?

      They escaped from being “British” after a long and bloody struggle.

      Who in their right mind in an independent Scotland would want to be called “British”?

    141. geeo says:

      You do not half talk some amount of crap, Robert John Sutherland.

      If we do not achieve a YES VOTE then it matters not what the post referendum strategy is. We are OUT 100% of EVERYTHING EU.

      The SNP position is, IN the EU post Yes vote.

      That is the position which helped win the last Holyrood elections, that is the position which won a HUGE mandate to hold indyref2.

      That position is an integral part of the very mandate to hold a referendum, so why would it be changed ?

      62% REMAIN.

      Lets not forget that number.
      ……

      If the EU are difficult, then that is the time to explore options.

      That however, is a question for AFTER a YES VOTE.

      We cannot be WORSE off regarding the EU, if we vote Yes, since a No vote is, as said previously, 100% OUT of ALL EU institutions and at the mercy of a Scotland hating WM government, regardless of which party rules that place.

    142. heedtracker says:

      “Why can’t we be like Eire and escape from English clutches, they don’t in the main rate us so why do so many of us want to be with them so much?”

      Because Scotland is the last great jewel in the crown, like a chilly India.

      Scottish democracy is also rather revolutionary, in that there is a good chance that this Scottish democracy journey that we’re on, may well see Scotland becoming a nation state that the majority really want, not what you know who, you know where wants:D

      Scrap that we may well. We will see Scotland becoming a democratic nation state, the majority wants.

    143. Rock says:

      Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend, good to see you are finally taking my advice:

      Rock (25th November – “The National FAQ”):

      “Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend, is it really beyond you to use quotation marks when quoting someone?”

    144. geeo says:

      “British” is a GEOGRAPHIC term, like “Scandinavian”

    145. heedtracker says:

      Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend, should the west not have attacked North Korea instead of Iraq, if it was “democracy” and “human rights” they cared about, instead of cheap oil?

      If you don’t know why Blair, Crash Gordon, Labour, Westminster went to war in the middle east, devastating a secular Islamic country like Iraq, killing and maiming hundreds of thousands of entirely defenceless and innocent Iraqi civilians, I’m not going to waste my broadband explaining how UKOK tory fascism embraces and worships war Rock.

      I guess the ultimate fear, for progressive liberal YES Scots like me is Rock, that the SLabour freaking deaky creep show does eventually slime back in to Holyrood power, thanks to the sterling efforts of massed ranks of Pacific Quay gimp propagandists.

      And ofcourse creepy gits like you online too Rock.

    146. Thepnr says:

      @Rock

      Luvin it!

      Watching you make an arse of yourself again on Wings, keep it up 🙂

    147. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      geeo @ 23:52,

      Tell me something new. =sigh= It’s staringly obvious that we need to win independence first. That’s what the discussion has actually been all about, though you don’t seem to have noticed: “how best to present a winning case?”

      Sorry that you appear to have failed to appreciate that, or what I have been saying. I happen to agree with you, the 62% Remain vote is what gives us the indyref2 mandate. That and the consequent majority vote in Holyrood, which I was fortunate to observe in person. Of course the SNP should respect that.

      I can’t think anyone else can have any doubt whatever of my belief that Scotland should remain a full member of the EU, for all sorts of reasons, including that. So I’m not sure what you are reading, or what you are on, but for the life of me I don’t see what is “nonsense” that you and I appear to be agreeing about?! =wry grin=

      (Unless you are simply itching to start another of your shouty and pointless arguments with somebody, that is.)

    148. Iain mhor says:

      I see a few comments along the lines of “going to war for cheap oil”
      It’s the opposite – Going to war to raise the price of oil.
      Though, granted, there’s also taking control of the oil production. In that way it may be construed as a way if gaining oil cheaply (highly debatable… Define cheap!)
      But it’s not in oil corporations, or any governments interest for the price of oil to remain cheap. No less Russia, whos economy took a tanking with the depression in oil prices.

      For a precis of the situation, I’d recommend this article About Trumps Government, from June this year; Among other analysis, it quite accurately predicts why the price of oil shpuld now soar beyond the $80 a barrel mark

      Extract: (Economic Shocks)

      “There is no faster or more effective way to drive up the price of oil, especially if the violence interferes with the supply of oil to the world market This would be great news for oil giants like Exxon Mobil, which have seen their profits drop dramatically as a result of the depressed price of oil — and Exxon, of course, is fortunate enough to have its former CEO, Tillerson, currently serving as secretary of state. (Not only was Tillerson at Exxon for 41 years, his entire working life, but Exxon Mobil has agreed to pay him a retirement package worth a staggering $180 million.)

      Other than Exxon, perhaps the only entity that would have more to gain from an oil price hike fueled by global instability is Vladimir Putin’s Russia, a vast petro-state that has been in economic crisis since the price of oil collapsed. Russia is the world’s leading exporter of natural gas, and the second-largest exporter of oil (after Saudi Arabia). When the price was high, this was great news for Putin: Prior to 2014, fully 50 percent of Russia’s budget revenues came from oil and gas…”

      https://theintercept.com/2017/06/10/the-worst-of-donald-trumps-toxic-agenda-is-lying-in-wait-a-major-u-s-crisis-will-unleash-it/

    149. schrodingers cat says:

      Iain mhor says:
      I see a few comments along the lines of “going to war for cheap oil”
      It’s the opposite – Going to war to raise the price of oil.
      —————

      one day, we will have a war for rice

    150. Al Dossary says:

      Trade – how I long for the day some enterprising Tayside soft fruit farmer strikes a deal with am Emirati businessman to ship his Strawbs to the middle east via those big Airbus things that leave Glasgow twice daily. Maybe by then Qatar will also be an option.

      Trust me, the American crap we get over here is tasteless. The only country that betters our strawbs is Norway. Salmon, vacuum packed Scotch Beef or smoked haddock – all high value exports that would sell well.

      Believe it or not the cheese I tend to buy in Saudi is Manx cheese – it’s as close as I can get to a proper extra mature scottish cheddar.

      Further tourist and trade boosts would come from extra air routes. There already are daily flights from Turkey, Dubai (twice daily), Qatar and a few flights from Abu Dhabi. The US and Canada would also add extra flights after independance. Take the need to use London as a hub further away from tourists and do what Iceland has done – offer a free stay in Scotland on flights from the Americas to Europe on one leg (afer all they mostly fly over Scotland anyway)

      High speed rail link from Prestwick to Glasgow and Edinburgh would certainly boost the airports.

      I’m sure that a Ferry service from Rosyth to the Scandinavian countries would also be viable. Stavanger/Bergen and Oslo/Gothenberg. Hell why stop there – Hamburg, Hook of Holland & Ostend also.

    151. twathater says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood 10.31pm
      WOW what a link even if only a small percentage of that article is true it is absolutely mind boggling ,as for the link about serco when you weigh it up and look around it all makes sense , the question is how do you stop these new world order manipulators as ALL governments are complicit in their compliance and spread

    152. Sandy says:

      Apparently, 14% of Free Ireland’s trade is with the UK. 40% of “bulk”.
      Go on, Eire, go for every thing you can.
      England, your past is coming back to haunt you.

    153. ScottieDog says:

      I see all rail lines into Euston station are closed today.
      Waiting for 3 days of press outrage and PMQs calling tories to step down.

    154. Muscleguy says:

      @Breeks
      If Mundell is headless nobody will know who he is. El Cid wasn’t headless, just deid and propped up.

    155. John H. says:

      Andrew Marr this morning talking about more government money for the British education system. He knows very well that there is no “British” education system.

      Never trust the BBC.

    156. Breeks says:

      twathater says:
      3 December, 2017 at 4:08 am
      @ Ian Brotherhood 10.31pm
      WOW what a link even if only a small percentage of that article is true it is absolutely mind boggling….

      I agree Twathater, but I’m more inclined towards Occam’s Razor type explanations rather than the grand conspiracy theories and existence or otherwise of the all knowing and interfering Illuminati.

      My belief is that history is just like a big game of bagatelle where the ball bearings are historical timelines which change trajectory according to how they bounce off each other and influence each other. Yesterday’s enemies might turn out to be tomorrow’s allies.

      I’m cynical about the UK’s special relationship with the US. It reminds me of Scotland’s Auld Alliance with France which traditional belief suggests meant a lot more to Scotland than it ever did to France.

      Look back to the beginning of WW11 and circumstances surrounding Roosevelt’s release of 50 clapped out relics of WW1 Destroyers to help defend UK convoys. The US was extremely reluctant and didn’t want to be involved in a European war on the side of the Colonial and Imperial British or indeed French. It wasn’t until German Uboats started sinking ships of the US coast that Roosevelt released the Destroyers to Churchill, and only then in exchange for generous land rights on British held territories. The US was still technically neutral until it was directly attacked by Japan, and after declaring war on Japan, it was Hitler who declared war on the US. If Hitler hadn’t been so hasty, there is an awkward question about how much longer the US would have stayed out of the war, but sat back getting rich selling arms to both sides.

      In fairness, there were also covert actions of support which did compromise US neutrality, but there is still a picture which emerges that in 1939 to 1941, the UK’s “special relationship” with the US was barely even lukewarm.

      Countries draw closer together when liaison pays dividends, and draw apart from each other when they dispute things and see things from different perspectives. But off course, owning a countries media is a tremendous tool when it comes to manipulating popular opinion.

      Coming back up to date, I seem to recall Trump’s camp describing Theresa May looking for a Trade Deal but “not having very much to offer”. Seems that special relationship needs an awful lot of elbow grease and Brasso to keep it’s shine… that and reliable gung-ho enthusiasm for US militarism of course…

    157. Gary45% says:

      Rock@10.13pm.
      If its democracy and human rights you are talking about.
      Why the F*CK are we not at war with Israel? they are causing the worst atrocities by any country on the planet.

    158. TheItalianJob says:

      @Breeks

      Excellent post Breeks as usual. I gain a great deal of insights into your posts here on Wings.

      Keep them coming.

    159. Al Dossary says:

      Yet even in WW2 the “Allies” were selectively bombing factories.

      German industry throughout the 1920s and 1930s was heavily funded from the US especially (GE, Ford, JP Morgan, Dupon and Standard oil all had massive investments. Prattle & Whitney and Douglas were involved also with the aircraft industty)

      Many cases occurred where the British wanted to bomb certain factories, but they were overruled by tbe US. In particular those factories owned wholly by Germany were bombed whilst those that had been invested in by US companies were taken off the list.

    160. Dorothy Devine says:

      Just stepped out my door to look at the blue sky and two airy planes have drawn a gigantic Saltire – it’s an omen I tell ye!

    161. Mike d says:

      Scottie dog 8.23am. You can bet your bottom dollar if it were Glasgow central, the red and blue tory scum in Scotland and their Scottish media pals would be screaming for nicola’s resignation. Two faced barstewards the lot of them.

    162. ben madigan says:

      @ Sandy who wrote “England, your past is coming back to haunt you”.

      The historical echoes are deafening as ireland faces up to the UK in the Brexit negotiations

      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2017/12/03/the-five-demands/

    163. Les Wilson says:

      We keep saying the US is our greatest friends.Well we do have much in common, and important despora connections.

      But, in both world war one and two. America was late to the party.
      What it did do though was supply armaments and finance, so while not at war themselves they made fortunes feeding others their needs. Only at the last moment did our friends join the fight.

      The result was that after both wars, warring nations were heavily indebted to the US, probably some still are.

      So have no doubt, the US government will only serve the interests of America, and that can be justified. If only we could say the same. So we are in reality, great friends until it suits them not to be.

      The American people are really not much different from us, but their government has many more agendas in it’s sights than being kind and helpful to the UK, unless of course they can make something from it. That is the American way. Another something we should keep in mind.

    164. galamcennalath says:

      ben madigan says

      The historical echoes are deafening as ireland faces up to the UK in the Brexit negotiations

      Indeed. I doubt is many Tory politicians in London understand the deep roots of Irish history being dug up. It goes back a lot further than the Good Friday Agreement and the Troubles which preceded it.

      The border and acceptance of the partition of Ireland are associated with Fine Gael whose origins lie in the pro-Treaty side in the Irish Civil War and Michael Collins.

      “Fine Gael would be politically very foolish to bring home yet another Irish Border Treaty. They wouldn’t dare, would they?”

      No they wouldn’t dare! No Irish politician is going to want to be seen to strengthen the border.

      They too are between a rock and hard place. If NI diverges from common regulations across Ireland, it is the Rep and EU who will need a hard border to protect their market.

    165. TheWasp says:

      Al Dossary @ 9.45

      I bought a book years ago in the USA, now sadly loaned out and lost, that was about the Bush family. The book was written by a republican insider and published by penguin, but the name escapes me.
      There was a very interesting section about US involvement in rearming Germany during the 1930s,mostly through the sending of armaments labeled as “farm machinery” or the supplying of machinery to make planes etc. I can also remember seeing pictures when I was a teenager taken by our neighbour who fought in WW2. The pictures showed Mr Russell’s regiment with captured Germany transport, dozens of lorries and all Fords, the same models as used by US troops.

    166. gus1940 says:

      What is it with The BBC and UKIP?

      Thursday’s QT – latest UKIP leader on the panel.
      Today – Farage on The Marr show.

    167. Jack Murphy says:

      OT. The Guardian yesterday.

      “Labour faces subversion by Momentum and far left, says Roy Hattersley”

      “Labour is facing the biggest crisis in its history as the leftwing pressure group Momentum tries to purge it of moderate MPs and councillors in a systematic takeover of the party, former deputy leader Roy Hattersley has warned.

      His dramatic intervention comes as details can be revealed of a vicious power struggle between moderates and leftwing forces in Momentum and the Unite union that now threatens to split the ruling national executive committee (NEC) and reopen party divisions………”

      http://archive.is/BTWZx

    168. HandandShrimp says:

      gus1940

      I agree, the joke is that UKIP’s only safe seat is the one on BBC shows. The BBC gave Farage and UKIP so much oxygen of publicity that the BBC became a significant player in the Leave campaign.

      In years to come media analysts will uncover a lot in the BBC from Savile to political corruption.

    169. Abulhaq says:

      If we had real news eg SNP state there will be a Scottish independence referendum in 2018, all this pettyfogging TrumperyTweetery would go back across the Atlantic where it belongs.
      English language media really should get out more.

    170. Andy-B says:

      Hats off to Susan Deacon today, on the Politics show, she held her nerve and didn’t give into Gordon Brewer’s sling some mud on Police Scotland line of questioning.

    171. Sinky says:

      Brian Spanner still going on about Alex Salmond and RT in Scotland on Sunday

    172. John H. says:

      Farage on LBC this morning to a remainer. I’m paraphrasing. What is it you don’t like about a country running it’s own affairs and having it’s own border? Exactly!

    173. schrodingers cat says:

      james kelly http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/

      To turn to a different subject, this month’s issue of iScot magazine features Peter A Bell and myself making entirely opposite points about the timing of the second independence referendum, and doing so with equal confidence. For reasons that I find hard to pin down, Peter is certain that the referendum will be held in September 2018, whereas I think a 2018 referendum is close enough to being impossible as makes no difference – although of course I do firmly believe that it should (and probably will) be held before the current mandate expires in May 2021. Yesterday, Peter claimed that Nicola Sturgeon had dropped a heavy hint that 2018 was going to be The Year in remarks to the SNP National Council. Others disputed that she had done any such thing, and I’m not surprised, because I’m baffled as to how Peter thinks a 2018 referendum is even feasible in practical terms.

      If the UK government were prepared to pass a Section 30 order without fuss upon request, then of course holding a snap referendum at almost any time would be a trivial matter. But all the indications are that they intend to persevere with the “now is not the time” tactic for a few years, which means any vote in 2018 would have to be of the consultative variety, held without Westminster’s permission. That makes it harder to do on a tight timetable, because the following steps would have to be followed –

      1) Nicola Sturgeon would need to allow ample time for a renewed Section 30 request to be considered, in order to demonstrate that she isn’t just going through the motions in making it. She’ll want to establish in the public mind that she bent over backwards to reach an agreement, and wasn’t hellbent on going it alone.

      2) She’ll then need time to explain to the public why an “unauthorised” consultative referendum has become necessary – not least because the media will point out she’s changed her own mind on that subject.

      3) The Scottish Parliament will then need to go through the process of legislating for a referendum, which from a legal perspective will not necessarily be that easy. The Presiding Officer’s legal advisers will have to be satisfied that the proposal is within the parliament’s current powers, which will require very careful wording. If that is achieved, it’ll still be important that the SNP are not seen to railroad such controversial legislation through parliament – there’ll have to be proper time for reflection and debate.

      4) There may then be legal challenges to overcome.

      5) Last but not least, Ms Sturgeon will need to allow an appropriate length of time for the campaign proper. I don’t think anyone would want a campaign anything like as long as the one that preceded the 2014 vote – but any attempt to cram it into a few short weeks would look like a cynical tactic and might backfire badly.

      I would suggest the last realistic date for a 2018 referendum is late October – anything beyond that would lead to concerns about the weather. (Alex Salmond initially proposed that the first indyref should be held on St Andrew’s Day 2010, but fate proved that wasn’t such a great idea – there was heavy snow and traffic chaos on that day.) So basically we’re talking about a little under eleven months from now. If Ms Sturgeon got the ball rolling right now or very soon, there might be just about enough time. But that clearly isn’t going to happen. There’ll be no announcement this side of Christmas, and probably not until well into the New Year. That means the 2018 option will be effectively timed out, and we’ll be looking at a probable date of 2019 or 2020. I’m not at all downhearted by that, because it wasn’t very long ago that siren voices within the SNP were seemingly trying to use the general election result as an excuse to “park” any talk of a referendum until beyond the 2021 election. They now appear to have comprehensively lost the internal debate.

      Does the near-impossibility of a 2018 vote mean that the referendum will be held after Britain officially leaves the European Union? Quite possibly, yes. Is that sub-optimal? In my opinion, absolutely. But if we wanted a September 2018 referendum, the time for making that case was during the summer. It seems to me we lost that particular battle, but won the wider war to keep a pre-2021 vote firmly on course. Speaking personally, I’m more than satisfied with that outcome.

    174. Jock McDonnell says:

      @schrodingers cat
      Yes, I can’t see how at this point in time, NS can call a referendum. She has always said she’d wait until the Brexit deal was clear. That won’t be until perhaps June 2018, then all the preparation etc. So an indyref in March 2019 is possible, I’d rather not wait till we leave – but it has to be this term.

      Plus, I think she’d like to hear a public outcry for it – that would be the best option.

    175. galamcennalath says:

      @schrodingers cat

      Timing of IndyRef2? There are big uncertainties.

      Will the Tories go for a cliff jumping Brexit? When will that outcome be known? Or, will there be a long transition within the single market? Will theTory government last and might there be an election? Who might win that election, Corbyn? Will there be a pro Indy majority if we have no ref prior to Holyrood 2021?

      Some outcomes have huge influence on the timing of IndyRef2.

      If talks collapse (by incompetence or by intent), a cliff jump seems certain, the Tories survive, then an early Autumn 2018 might turn out both ideal and necessary.

      At the other end of the spectrum, a change of government, a soft Brexit on the cards, and a long transition being agreed, even pre-2021 Holyrood seems difficult. The campaign wouldn’t have the justification of impending disaster.

      As for Section 30 from WM, they will do everything to avoid that. I suspect their plan would be, not before Holyrood 2021. They hope for a Unionist majority. If there was a pro Indy majority with a no-caveat-mandate to call IR2, only then would they agree to S30, IMO.

      Personally, I think there is more than enough case for IndyRef2 anytime! However, I accept prudential timing will increase the chance of winning!

    176. liz says:

      Thanks for the cartoon Chris,
      O/T @RobertPeffers and others might like to know that on his marriage, it has been suggested that Harry takes on the Duke of Albany title, last held by Bonnie Prince Charlie.

      Talk about rubbing our noses in it.
      Let’s get the feck out of here.

    177. Abulhaq says:

      Working on the hypothesis that relations between the British state and the EU will further degrade and might result in a granite hard Brexit maybe sooner than anticipated, something English nationalists probably desire, the option for a 2018 referendum should be very seriously considered.
      Being caught out in such a situation without having prepared our ground would result in a battle lost before it has even begun.
      Preparing the ground involves the explicit education of the electorate as to the consequences of political pacivity. What three centuries of hard incorporating union with England ought to have taught us is that we are peripheral. England’s interests will always dominate. Whinging after the event would make us look even more pathetic in the eyes of the world.

    178. heedtracker says:

      Farage is on BBC gimp network again because Orange Hitler is in very deep impeachment shit. And who’s the big Orange Hitler flower girl in this farce UK today, the BBC.

      You want to hear the tory creeps that own BBC World Service, as they go about their vote Trump beeb world propaganda.

      We’ll do rather well to shake off that crew of tory creeps alone, indy ref2:D

    179. Croompenstein says:

      I see Moray’s part time MP is running the line at Pittodrie today. prick

    180. heedtracker says:

      Some Sunday stinky olde Graun lol’s anyone,

      http://archive.is/JdiTV

      Graeme Norton

      “He’s proud to work for the BBC (he’s their biggest entertainment star, with a salary of £2.5m), but often finds it frustrating. “They don’t defend themselves robustly enough.

      They’re so intent on being above criticism by offering ‘balance’, but sometimes there isn’t a balance to be had! Like in the Brexit referendum – every argument needs equal time?

      Actually no: one opinion from a lad in Bristol compared to 16 Nobel prize winners – that’s not right. And everybody, both left and right, thinks the BBC is biased. Which to me is a sign it’s succeeding.

      If you fuck up, the BBC will point it out. I worry that’s being undermined, because they’re so cautious and defensive, trying to avoid criticism. It should be more confident.”

      No wonder Snatcher Thatcher sold off everything bar the beeb gimp network. BBC certainly came good destroying Scottish democracy, or at least hobbling it for a generation.

      Maybe mass ranks of beeb dudes like Norton are worth a million nurses salaries.

    181. Jack Murphy says:

      liz sa at 12:50 pm:
      Thanks for the cartoon Chris,
      “O/T @RobertPeffers and others might like to know that on his marriage, it has been suggested that Harry takes on the Duke of Albany title, last held by Bonnie Prince Charlie.

      Talk about rubbing our noses in it.
      ………”

      People may be unaware that Prince Andrew,Duke of York,morphs into the guise of Earl of Inverness the moment he crosses the Border from England,—-it’s a subsidiary title granted to him by his loving mother.

      As a divorcee of the Earl of Inverness that grants ‘Fergie’ the title of:

      The Dowager Countess of Inverness!

      That’s nice. 🙂

      Rejoice.

    182. schrodingers cat says:

      some interesting points by james kelly

      for my part, our opponents, the british state, are a formidable force but are facing a very damaging brexit. the economy, the currency and even its standing in the world are facing a downward trajectory.

      opportunities for us to make a bid for freedom are very rare and with the UK media stacked against us, very difficult to win. Indyref2 should be held when we are most likely to win and that will be when our opponents are weakest.

      We can speculate, predict, guestimate when that will be but none of us has a crystal ball.

      so for now, we wait.

      one positive today, james kelly has speculated that a scotland wide poll has taken place but whoever commissioned it seems reluctant to publish the findings

    183. Legerwood says:

      liz says:
      3 December, 2017 at 12:50 pm
      Thanks for the cartoon Chris,
      O/T @RobertPeffers and others might like to know that on his marriage, it has been suggested that Harry takes on the Duke of Albany title, last held by Bonnie Prince Charlie.

      Talk about rubbing our noses in it.
      Let’s get the feck out of here.
      …………….

      More likely to be Duke of Clarence which is usually the title given to junior royal although it seems to have fallen out of favour. Possibly Duke of Lancaster but perhaps not a strong possibility because it is one of the Queen’s titles.

    184. KOF says:

      @ Liz 12:50

      “Bonnie Prince Charlie” was never Duke of Albany, his father King James vii was. Charles Edward Stuart did however pass on the title to his daughter Charlotte, making here Duchess of Albany.

      The last person to hold the title Duke of Albany was Charles Stuart, Duke of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha. Howver he only held the title until 1919. It was removed from him for backing the Germans during WW1. No one has held the title since.

      However, yes, does seem to somewhat smack of nose rubbing if Henry Windsor is indeed to be given this title.

    185. schrodingers cat says:

      @gala
      you correctly point out many of the variables which could effect the timing of indyref2. I would add, we have little or no control over these events

      Jock McDonnell says

      Yes, I can’t see how at this point in time, NS can call a referendum. She has always said she’d wait until the Brexit deal was clear.

      —————————-
      it never ceases to amaze me that with all that has happened, support for indy stays stubbornly at 45-46%. I fear that many more people will need to suffer before the tide turns.

      thats my point about the future trajectory of the uk. it is down in every department. whether it is a sharp decline (cliff senario) or a slow decline isnt known yet. eitherway, it is down and will cause heart ache for many. somewhere along that trajectory is an indyref2 we can win.

      we also need to avoid being blamed for the down turn, which means waiting for brexit to really start hurting people. Sad

    186. schrodingers cat says:

      more from scot goes pop

      First things first: a Survation-Watch update. Stuart Dickson has spotted an article in the Sunday Post about a Scottish poll conducted by Survation between the 27th and 30th of November. It was commissioned by an organisation called 38 Degrees and asks whether EU powers over devolved areas should be transferred direct to Holyrood after Brexit (as would happen automatically if it wasn’t for the UK government’s power grab in the Great Repeal Bill). The results are predictable, albeit devastating for the UK government – almost two-thirds of the Scottish public want the powers to go to Edinburgh, not London.

      The poll looks for all the world like a bolt-on question added to a full-scale poll commissioned by a different client. So it looks like Survation have carried out the Scottish poll they promised – but so far the voting intention results are nowhere to be seen. Maybe those will still appear over the coming hours or days – and if they don’t, there’ll be the tantalising possibility that maybe, just maybe, the client is holding them back due to disappointment with the numbers. Something like that happened a couple of months ago, as you may recall.
      ——————————————

      i would add, 38deg is a unionist front for the labour party

    187. John H. says:

      schrodingers cat says: 1.22pm.

      “one positive today, james kelly has speculated that a scotland wide poll has taken place but whoever commissioned it seems reluctant to publish the findings”

      Ipsos MORI polled me just last night, so that may be a different poll. I was asked how I would vote if there were to be another Scottish independence referendum, and if I would be certain to vote.

      I was also asked the same questions re. a future general election.

    188. galamcennalath says:

      KOF says:

      smack of nose rubbing

      … well, how about a nice vacant title like Duke of Munster? 😉

    189. bjsalba says:

      O/T Article in LeMonde on Trump isolationism.

      http://www.lemonde.fr/donald-trump/article/2017/12/03/migrants-unesco-climat-comment-les-etats-unis-se-desengagent-des-accords-internationaux_5223890_4853715.html

      Migrants, Unesco, climate: how the United States comes out of international agreements

      The withdrawal of the Global Compact on Migration on Saturday is just the latest example of Trump’s isolationist policies.

      Very interesting.

    190. Breeks says:

      Jock McDonnell says:
      3 December, 2017 at 12:45pm

      …Plus, I think she’d like to hear a public outcry for it – that would be the best option…

      Why would there would be any public outcry and momentum for a referendum when the SNP has been so lacklustre and indifferent about even contesting Brexit? SNP Plan A from the off has been to retain access to the single market, which isn’t an anti-Brexit option but a soft Brexit option, and a soft Brexit option which we’re apparently going to be eligible to join as a sub-Sovereign region of the UK with no international recognition of our capacity to act as our own interlocutor. Any “outcry” about Brexit had the rug pulled out from under it when Scotland’s Remain vote was sidelined in lieu of merely salvaging access to the Single Market.

      If our SNP Government now finds itself running out of time, then speaking for myself, I’m going to be going “radio rental” about the months that have been wasted without actively promoting an anti-Brexit pro-Independence mandate from the day after the 2016 Remain vote.

      We are close to the point on no return on Brexit for Scotland, but we have no ultimatums pending, no defining issues coming to fruition, no hierarchy of preferred options from optimal to feast favourable, no choke points in the dialogue, and no yardstick except polls and anecdotal conjecture to judge the mood of the country, and no Clearwater understanding of our actual constitutional status in law. We remain passengers in the bus being driven by everybody else except ourselves. Even Northern Ireland has its affairs coming to the crunch, while we in Scotland seem airbrushed from the proceedings with all our hope resting upon an elusive electoral majority which is slapped about the head on a daily basis by Unionist propaganda.

      The SNP has got its way, and YES momentum is truncated and currently unsure what to do with itself, waiting it would seem for the SNP strategists to give it purpose and direction, and it’s place in the order of battle.

      We wait. We all wait…. And still we wait…

    191. HandandShrimp says:

      I do trust that Derek will not be announced as the new Rangers managers otherwise I will want a steward’s inquiry. :/

    192. schrodingers cat says:

      i’m glad it is nicola who decides these issues and not you breeks

    193. geeo says:

      There is no chance the referendum will be held in September 2018.

      The campaign would be shorter this time, granted, but even a short 3 month campaign say, would mean calling it around june.

      This is nowhere near knowing the full effects of brexit on Scotland, as the uk gov are desperate to hide the effects on the whole uk for as long as possible.

      So, no hope of a referendum held in September 2018.

      However, announcing the referendum in September 2018 is more likely, in my opinion, with maybe a late January/early Feb date for it.

      This allows campaigning to take place when the final deal has been sent to the EU to be studied and ratified.

      This creates obvious problems for BT2, given they cannot lie about post brexit effects, like the effects on the economy etc.

      Project fear becomes project “is that right, aye”?

      As for the S30 request.

      There has not yet been a formal request for a S30 order by the SG.

      When that request is made, it MUST be granted, and granted without delay.

      The U.N. Charter on it is fairly unambiguous on this.
      ………..
      3. . Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.
      …………

      In other words, now IS the time.

      A request for a S30 being flat refused, or obfuscated by WM is a huge error by WM. They know this, so it WILL be granted. I have ZERO doubt about that, and granted to suit the SG at that.

    194. schrodingers cat says:

      John H.

      did they ask you how you voted in indyref1?

    195. Iain mhor says:

      @Ian Brotherhood 10:31pm

      Finally got round to reading that link (and subs)
      Interesting stuff.
      My takeaway from the article was that the combined Intelligence & media operations both sides of the Atlantic were unable to swing an election away from hero Trump. Hmmm… colour me cynical.
      Still an intriguing read.

    196. Legerwood says:

      A piece in the Guardian with something positive to say about Scotland. Subject is knife crime and how Scotland has tackled it

      http://archive.is/pZuJK

    197. Abulhaq says:

      @Breeks
      The growing popular indifference to or simple disgust with politics, the loss of gravitas and authority besetting the political class and the socio-political ‘movers and shakers’ generally is not the ideal backdrop for the revolutionary change which Scottish independence would certainly be.
      However, that the British system is in turmoil even progressive decay is our golden opportunity. That there might be something in the national psyche preventing such opportunism I prefer not to comtemplate.
      The national movement needs to start making a real nuisance of itself. We do not require the ministrations of the clichéd, cautious ‘Scotch lawyer’ types. Our country never was safe in their sweaty hands.

    198. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Breeks

      Why an outcry ? Well the only way many people will move heavily towards independence is when its seen as safer & less painful that what they have now, a positive choice when framed against a deteriorating unionist alternative.
      Thats been the way in Scottish politics for years, I have knocked on many doors & fear is the thing I have noticed most. They like the idea, they feel its right, but they are afraid – a significant number are afraid. Even devolution was eventually achieved because people saw that it could be no worse than what they had experienced.
      We can make & win the argument, but much of our electorate will only vote Yes when the UK experience really hurts, otherwise they just suck it up.
      In retrospect our happy-clappy 2014 campaign engaged many people but seemed too light-weight for many of the fearful.

      NI is instructive though, whether you are on one side or the other, asserting your identity is what works. They don’t support English parties and that makes a difference. They always seem to get their voices heard either way. Hopefully some of that will dawn on Scots voters.

    199. heedtracker says:

      The national movement needs to start making a real nuisance of itself. We do not require the ministrations of the clichéd, cautious ‘Scotch lawyer’ types. Our country never was safe in their sweaty hands.”

      FM Sturgeon, lawyer, to name but a one. Joana Cherry QC, lawyer, to name but two, and so on.

      If the Law is scaring you or you distrust it all, try a law degree, OU is fantastic for this kind of academic challenge. You probably wont get a law job but it will make you think.

    200. Fireproofjim says:

      Re Inde2
      I agree that September 2018 is too soon.
      The full horror of Brexit will not be apparent by then. There are a lot of Westminster disasters to come and each will add to the case for inde.
      Apart from that there would be no time to organise a fully fledged campaign. Off course it should be shorter than last time, but the late summer of 2019 would be best. By that time we will know the worst about Brexit and the longer evenings and good weather are vital for campaigning.
      On a technical point, the Yes campaign should produce many fewer leaflets, and those it does produce should be of much higher quality than last time. The Wee Blue Book was head and shoulders above anything produced by Yes. There is still a case for a good Yes Newspaper, but last time it never exposed the lies of the No campaign and was full of bland mini-celebrity comments. – I know, I delivered thousands of them but was never inspired by them.

    201. Proud Cybernat says:

      @Breeks

      “We remain passengers in the bus being driven by everybody else except ourselves. Even Northern Ireland has its affairs coming to the crunch, while we in Scotland seem airbrushed from the proceedings…”

      Scotland’s ‘crunch moment’ is well on the way. We have already read in the Sunday Haerald today that the Brexit Bill, in its present form, will not be able to obtain legislative consent from Holyrood.

      That meand WM will have option but to over-ride the Holyrood parliament, over-rdie the expressed will of the people of Scotland.

      THAT is our crunch momet. THAT is the moment when the FM of Scotland can stand up and say to the people of Scotland, ‘Devolution is dead’. That is the moment when the people of Scotland will have there eyes fully open and realise devolution for the utter sham it actually is; that ultimately WM are STILL in control; that power devolved really is power retained.

      And they will further realise that there really is ONLY ONE proper answer to WM-style devolution. It’s one word and it begins with the letter ‘I’.

      That crunch moment, I suspect, is way closer than we think.

    202. Robert Peffers says:

      @Les Wilson says: 3 December, 2017 at 10:38 am:

      “What it did do though was supply armaments and finance, so while not at war themselves they made fortunes feeding others their needs. Only at the last moment did our friends join the fight”

      It seems, Les, that you are somewhat influenced by the USA/UK propensity to re-write history to suit their respective own ends.

      Fortunately the bare facts show that it is nothing more than Washington/Westminster propaganda.

      Here are a few of those actual facts.

      Right up until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour the USA was selling scrap iron to the Japanese who had no iron ore sources of their own. However, the other main facts are damning.

      There were several deals made by the USA, (reluctantly and had to be fought through congress). One was the sale, it was not a free gift by any measure, of 50 USA clapped out WWI destroyers. The price of which was 99 year leases on United Kingdom overseas bases to the USA, (one of which incidentally is Guantanamo Bay).

      Destroyers for Bases Agreement between Britain and United States, signed on 2 September 1940:-

      https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Destroyers%20for%20Bases%20Agreement

      Those 99 year leases of UK bases began in September 1940 and we will find out, in 2039 if the UK will see them returned to the UK’s ownership. I’ll likely be dead by then but will not, in any case, be holding my breath. Some of those old warships didn’t even survive the Atlantic crossing.

      Then came, “The Cash and Carry Act”, this was a policy requested by US President Franklin Delano Roosevelt at a special session of the United States Congress on September 21, 1939, subsequent to the outbreak of war in Europe. It replaced the Neutrality Acts of 1936. The revision allowed the sale of materiel to belligerents, as long as the recipients arranged for the transport using their own ships and paid immediately in cash, assuming all risk in transportation. It also applied to both the Allies and the Axis combatants. The first line in this act begins, “In defense of the US …”.

      The Cash and Carry Act was followed by the Lend-Lease Act when the Allies ran out of cash the USA began the Lease-Lend Act. This of course a buy now pay later scheme we usually refer to as the Never Never method of payment. Guess what? This also begins, “In defense of the US”, and both schemes were by a nation that was still struggling to free itself from, “The Great Depression”, that was partly caused by their own stupid isolationist policies.

      Now just think on those facts for a moment – first of all the USA was selling to BOTH sides in the conflict and in spite of acknowledging that it was in, “defense”, of the US they were not fighting their own corner until the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour and thus declared war upon the USA. Then Hitler followed a few days later with a declaration of war upon the USA.

      The came, somewhat belatedly, to fight their own corner and by the end of hostilities they were out of The Great Depression and we were virtually bankrupt, (along with the rest of Europe). Thing is the UK was the only nation that settled their debts to the USA and that took until 31 December 2006.

      On that day the UK made a final payment of about £45.5m. It thereby discharged the last of its war loans from the USA. By the end of World War II Britain had amassed an immense debt of £21 billion and we paid back our debts to the USA who had admitted in, “The Cash & Carry Act”, and, “The Lease-Lend Act”, that these acts were in, “defense”, of the USA.

      It remains to be seen if the USA has any intention of ever returning the, “Destroyers for UK Territory Leases”, territories back to the UK.

      As an aside a search through the internet will expose that there was USA financial influences applied to the Allies bombing of German factories in WWII. This was because of USA big business holdings in German Industry. Where these USA financial interests were present the factories were NOT bombed. Furthermore, to quote just one example, Volkswagen:-

      https://www.thelocal.de/20150925/the-brit-who-saved-vw-after-the-war

    203. heedtracker says:

      As an aside a search through the internet will expose that there was USA financial influences applied to the Allies bombing of German factories in WWII. This was because of USA big business holdings in German Industry. Where these USA financial interests were present the factories were NOT bombed. Furthermore, to quote just one example, Volkswagen:-

      Again this a very post imperial UK world view/historic perspective.

      After America entered the second world war, they effectively took overall command of everything, under the supreme command of Eisenhower in 1942, based in London.

      Everything war effort British then came under the direct control of Washington in WW2. Almost all RAF bomber crews were trained in Arizona for example, from that point onward.

      The desperation of the British during this period, to get the USA to enter the war, is as compelling a history as any. If they hadn’t, the history of Europe and the world would a lot more Stalinist Russia today.

      We need a proper history of what actually to the UK and Europe, in WW2 because it is being airbrushed away, for the good of the tory UKOK nation, ofcourse:D

    204. heedtracker says:

      The desperation of the British during this period, to get the USA to enter the war, is as compelling a history as any. If they hadn’t, the history of Europe and the world would BE a lot more Stalinist Russia today.

      We need a proper history of what actually HAPPENED to the UK and Europe, in WW2 because it is being airbrushed away, for the good of the tory UKOK nation, ofcourse:D

      Sorry.

    205. Abulhaq says:

      @heedtracker
      In your native literalism you’ve totally missed the point….’Scotch lawyer’ ….note the punctuation marks.
      Oh dear!……such a cognitive mountain to climb.

    206. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 3 December, 2017 at 2:35 pm:

      “i’m glad it is nicola who decides these issues and not you breeks.”

      And you are not alone in that gladness, schrodingers cat.

      Thing is that I have a great feeling that when it comes to the point it will come suddenly, without prior warning, like a bolt from the blue. The feeling is that the present Tory Hecht Heid Ains will either just crumble away or more likely, be pushed before the jump.

      There will then be an immediate change of Government as a fractured Tory Party will be unable to retain a majority and have no one else to support them. So while the Westminster lot collectively descend into internal party politics in their efforts to gain power and thus abandon their united unionist front against Scottish independence there will be an open goalmouth ready for a score.

      With the ever increasing disorganisation at Westminster I suspect that there will be a very sudden breakdown of Theresa’s party.

    207. Lenny Hartley says:

      Heedtracker the German oil and gas industry is centred on a town called Celle north of Hanover, I visited there a lot when I worked in Aberdeen. beautiful town, stunning in fact with all those 15th buildings , wait original 15th century buildings, apart from a couple of low scale American bombing of the canal docking area not as much as a damp squib dropped there, I wonder why, I was told by some German Colleagues it was due to some cousin of the Queen lived there.I have not been able to back this up. But rather unusual that every town in Germany was flattened except Celle.

    208. Dr Jim says:

      It’s too soon, no it’s not, I want more detail, I don’t need any more detail let’s go, but what about Yada Yada Yada

      Not a lot of sense in second guessing the FM whether the time or circumstances is right or not without the information she has, and she’s certainly not going to disclose it and give the BBC and their pals a look at it and then mount their Anti Campaign against it, whatt,s important to us is will we vote for it

      Of course we will and anybody who wont can take a dive off a high place

      We shouldn’t ever again be defending ourselves against the forces who would try to stop us, rather we should be ridiculing the pathetic excuses for staying in a draining toilet waiting to be flushed away

      If you go on a garbage holiday at least you can get your money back or leave, this has been the crappiest 310 year holiday ever in history and the travel agent (England) refuses to let us leave and is demanding money from us to stay with them in their crap destination that we don’t want to be in and refusing to let us go to the destination we do want to be in and they’re not even ABTA registered

      Here’s another wee thing I was thinking about, they keep telling us as if we’re stupid that we have to stay with them because we buy more from them, y’know the trady argument
      But see they keep force feeding us English products in our Supermarkets stamped with their British flag to convince folk we need their grub and other such things when their rotten to the core Supermarkets deliberately don’t buy Scottish local produce to stock the shelves with, so our Scottish producers sell more overseas than here, the sooner we get rid of these lying parasites the better for us all round

      Find a Supermarket in Scotland who stocks your Scottish reared Christmas turkey and you can claim your £5
      Doe anybody seriously think we don’t have turkeys? well we do but ours tend to be top quality stuff for the quality market, but take Bernard Mathews out of the equation and we can do the frozen shit too, it’s not turkey science

      Ya think it’s a coincidence you don’t see any gobble gobblers from your local farm turkey man/woman

      Vote YES for a better holiday destination

    209. heedtracker says:

      Oh dear!……such a cognitive mountain to climb.

      But worth the effort too:D

    210. heedtracker says:

      Lenny Hartley says:
      3 December, 2017 at 4:58 pm
      Heedtracker the German oil and gas industry is centred on a town called Celle north of Hanover,

      Maybe, but the bombing of Germany was under the command of the US. The UK became the US’s 51st state, as soon as they entered the war. That was the actual price the UK paid.

      And its why Scotland’s a Trident nuke base and why twerps like Blair and Brown went to war with the US right and Bush… that heavy heavy hand of war history, on Crash Gordo’s shoulders, who then went on to redeem himself in 2014, by destroying Scottish independence, for the the UK.

      The threads of history:D

    211. John H. says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      3 December, 2017 at 2:38 pm

      John H.

      did they ask you how you voted in indyref1?
      ……….
      They did. And how I voted in the last GE.

    212. Ealasaid says:

      @Gus1940 ‘What is it with The BBC and UKIP?’

      I would say that the BBC shamelessly promoted UKIP to get the working class man to vote for right wing politics. That working class man then voted for Brexit.

      Yesterday a nationwide Survation poll put Corbyn and Labour ahead in the first time for a long long time and suddenly UKIP is everywhere on the BBC.

    213. heedtracker says:

      Ya think it’s a coincidence you don’t see any gobble gobblers from your local farm turkey man/woman”

      Speaking of turkey’s, its God what votes Tory and Brexit.

      Crash Gordo was also born and raised by a vicar in a vicarage. They’re not exactly what you’d expect to be produced, in a vicarage, depending on how tory UKOK you are, I guess.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-reveals-how-her-faith-in-god-makes-her-certain-she-is-doing-the-right-thing-a7442616.html

      Ms May spoke about growing up as the only child of a clergyman. Her father, Hubert Brasier, was the vicar of an Oxfordshire village.

      She said: “Being brought up in a vicarage, of course the advantage is that you do see people from all walks of life, and particularly in villages you see people from all sorts of backgrounds and all sorts of conditions, in terms of disadvantage and advantage.

      “What came out of my upbringing was a sense of service.”

      How many of the poorest and most vulnerable Brits are now dead and gone, thanks to the vicar’s parenting skills?

      Its always the parents, and God, or the baby Jesus:-(

    214. Socrates MacSporran says:

      heedtracker Gordon Brown was NOT the son of a vicar, brought up in a vicarage.

      He was a minister’s son, brought up in a manse – and, sadly, while some”Sons of the Manse” have done great things, they also have something of a reputation for going awry.

    215. heedtracker says:

      He was a minister’s son, brought up in a manse – and, sadly, while some”Sons of the Manse” have done great things, they also have something of a reputation for going awry.

      OK! Are they not twa cheeks of the same airse though?

      Manses get on my goat too. They’re like palaces for the clergy, the reps of God on earth, although with nothing on the queen, God’s ultimate rep on earth, now worth £60+bn and getting richer by the UKOK day.

    216. galamcennalath says:

      Ealasaid says:

      I would say that the BBC shamelessly promoted UKIP to get the working class man to vote for right wing politics.

      Definitely. Their biggest ‘success’ must have been getting a UKIP MEP elected from Scotland.

      UKIP would have got nowhere without the BBC. Brexit would never have happened.

      Imagine if they had given the Greens (English and Scottish) the same level of exposure they gave UKIP! Of course they wouldn’t have.

      The UK Establishment is Right Wing, always was, always will be. They occasionally tolerate leftish parties coming to power, but I never think it’s what it seems. i.e. New Labour replacing Threatening Labour, and then taking over when the Tories had been discredited. Did Blair change much? Did he roll back the huge increases in equality under the Tories?

    217. Tinto Chiel says:

      Since we’ve been well O/T for yonks:

      Happy 100th Independence Day, Finland!

      Don’t know how this small, cold, northern country managed without the pooling and sharing and broad shoulders of an indulgently generous Westminster, though.

      While whipping up a gourmet meal for The Home Secretary, caught the start of a Pravdasound4 programme at 5. Subject: how could we possibly make access to university more affordable?

      Could only listen for about ten minutes before we had to eat, but I betcha there wasn’t much said about university provision in a small, cold, northern country not so far away from Londinium.

      Those beans were good, btw.

    218. Thepnr says:

      Indyref2 in the Autumn of 2018? I don’t think that would be a good idea. Last time in 2014 they, the BBC and the rest of the establishment that is, celebrated the start of the 1st WW. It was never off the telly.

      Can you just imagine what it will be like in the run up to Armistice Day 2018?

      Totally serious wall to wall WW1 propaganda about GREAT BRITAIN.

    219. Thepnr says:

      If we wait until Spring 2020 and the 700th anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath and it WILL be ignored, then that gives all of us another opportunity just to point out to those that know no better just how the UK state is fighting a propaganda war in Scotland.

      This is just tongue in cheek, we shouldn’t let any significate dates be the reason for choosing to have a second referendum.

      Let Nicola choose that date when she believes we have the best chance of winning. Hopefully before 2021 but there is a lot yet to happen between now and then.

      I’m happy to bide my time until it is the right time.

    220. Bobp says:

      The 2nd Indy referendum will be down to the soft no’s. You can continue to be afraid,or you can change and be strong.

    221. Chang Sha says:

      Switching channels this morning I had the misfortune to come across the Mogg interview on BBC.
      First time I’d ever heard him; a very creepy individual; sounds like a total nutter

    222. schrodingers cat says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      With the ever increasing disorganisation at Westminster I suspect that there will be a very sudden breakdown of Theresa’s party.
      —————–

      i think with brexit this maybe the case. but i think many people i see on social media predicting this forget that a vote of no confidence now (since 2010) needs 66% in the commons and not the 50%.
      so the DUP may be able to stop bills going through the commons but to precipitate another GE will need half of the tory MPs to rebel.

      i’m not saying that this wont happen before 2021 but it is will be a long drawn out affair. the upshot of this situation (and corbyns pro brexit position) means that brexit will continue until it becomes really bad.

      to that end, the trajectory for the uk is downward, very far down and i believe that somewhere on this line is an indyref2 we can win.

      after a life time campaigning for independence, i am a tad bemused by the arguments about whether indyref2 should be in 1, 2 or 3 years.
      the fact that independence is a real and tangible possibilty within touching distance warms my soul

    223. Swiss Perspective says:

      Headtracker.

      I think you need to take a closer look at the message of Jesus Christ which was very much about empowerment and liberation. Jesus was on the side of the peace-makers and the poor The institutional church has often been misused by power establishments, but there are many people in the Church, ministers, vicars, priests and countless simple parish-goers who work tirelessly in the service of making the world a better place. God speaks not in the booming voice of power, but in the whisper of the downtrodden, and that is where His true might resides.

      I for one am offended if lumped together with opponents of independence on the basis of my faith, and many more like me would feel the same. But I will say no more, as I do not intend an argument about religion on this forum.

    224. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Some good comments this afternoon. I also did rather like Breeks wee gem about the bus being driven by everyone except us. DUP included. Now, how shameful is that?

      This is a chicken-and-egg / horse-and-cart situation if ever there was one. There was a sorry lack of rightful indignation in Scotland at the EURef result, and in that pathetic reaction we all let Nicola down rather than the reverse.

      So some kind of breathing space was necessary. But for me the SNP totally lost the plot after the unwanted UKGE. Which left every party in the doo-doo actually, but the SNP seem to have taken their win (!) far too hard, especially the WM (or ex-WM) contingent. They only seem to have begun to recover their individual and corporate nerve now.

      Thing is, people are now needing a lead. I believe the tipping point over Scotland’s rogering by Brexit is rapidly approaching, and the cool attempt heretofore to persuade the UK to stay in a single-market/customs area has clearly failed, both in terms of persuading the UKGov and also in offering a clear lead to the Scottish people. We need to wake up to reality: Brexit-Lite just won’t set the heather on fire for indyref2.

      We need some hope and inspiration for the future soon from somebody. The time for triangulating over Brexit from the sidelines is over.

    225. heedtracker says:

      Swiss Perspective says:
      3 December, 2017 at 7:15 pm
      Headtracker.

      I’d like to say I am sorry for causing offence to you but I’d be lying. Religion is one of the great cons on humanity, probably the greatest. Just look at what religious parents like Gordon Brown’s or Teresa May’s produced.

      I do not need ten commandments or an invisible man up in the sky, to tell me right from wrong.

    226. Fireproofjim says:

      Thepnr
      You are right. I did not think about the 100th centenary of WW1 in August 2018. There will certainly be a Yoon-fest then, but that may be a another good reason for late Summer 2019, when there are no obvious events.
      Anyway, I think that our campaign needs a summer timetable for all the evening canvassing and weekend events. What to do? Nicola will sort it out!

    227. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      heedtracker @ 19:29,

      Religion isn’t any different from any other aspect of life: you get out of it whatever you’re willing to put into it. Applies to enlightened, bigots, exploiters and indifferent alike.

      But as far as indy is concerned, individual preferences on such matters are far better irrelevant than conditional. We need everyone on board to win.

    228. Liz g says:

      Swiss Perspective @ 7.15
      If what you say is true then your god has no moral’s
      If I had the power to change things and have world peace,I would do it!
      And that’s the difference between me and your God…..well not just yours…all of them really!

      So no I don’t think that you can just tell anyone that they just haven’t got the right message yet
      That’s pretty insulting and offensive.
      But you are right about this not being the right place to discuss it.
      After all we are figuring out democracy here…and as I understand it your God’s no a fan.

    229. schrodingers cat says:

      the fact that independence is a real and tangible possibilty within touching distance warms my soul

      correction

      the fact that independence is a real and tangible possibilty within touching distance warms the pit of my stomack

    230. heedtracker says:

      But as far as indy is concerned, individual preferences on such matters are far better irrelevant than conditional. We need everyone on board to win.”

      Mr Sutherland, do you actually think my lack of faith in a god, or my endless whining about the breathtaking hypocrisy of products of the manse/vicarage, like Crash or Teresa, will have any bearing whatsoever, on people who are religious and how they vote indy ref2?

      No.

      People can believe in any thing or anyone they like, as far as I’m concerned. Its democracy.

    231. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 7.52
      Well I see it differently Robert.. If we get caught up in the “God is on our side” narratives then we must have a winner!
      I have never known that to end well!

      That’s no what we are looking for here as far as I can tell.
      We, I think, are looking for a Constitution to protect everyone equally…. So by default no Deity has any input cause as I said they are no that big on the democratic process.
      And as a double default everyone can make of religion what they will without fear or favour.

      So like heedtracker I am no doing this to give Jesus or any the rest of them an advantage, and I won’t pretend that I don’t mind if they did….I would mind very much!

    232. geeo says:

      To be honest, if someone votes No due to what a stranger said to them on the internet, they are unlikely to have ever been Yes voters, nor likely to be.

    233. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “Tony Blair has confirmed that he is trying to reverse Brexit, arguing that voters deserve a second referendum because the “£350 per week for the NHS” promise has now been exposed as untrue.”

      http://archive.is/lZuZc

      Didnae hear much about him trying to reverse the Indy Ref No Vote ‘cos of all the Unionist lies.

      Bliar (no typo) still a wee shite.

    234. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      heedtracker @ 20:18,

      Any attempt to virtue-signal about individual o/t hobbyhorses is at best boring and at worst merely succeeds in deterring potential converts. Obvious, you would think.

      Your opinion on such irrelevancies is your business, and better to stay that way as far as indy is concerned.

      (It’s not exactly as though there is a shortage of relevant outlets for your other concerns, if you really harbour an irresistable urge to share them with the wider world.)

    235. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland …re my 8.22 comments.

      I do realize that you weren’t the one suggesting that if we only understood Jesus better we would see he was on OUR side.

      What I am sayin is …. that’s no an position to appease.

      Being equal is the only thing on offer,and I think that’s a much better offer.
      Also one we should be very clear about!
      We can’t leave anyone thinking that a Yes vote will give Any particular brand of religion the edge.

    236. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 20:22,

      It would be a fair point, Liz, if there was any kind of attempt happening to create some kind of Christian equivalent of a Caliphate on independence. But there just ain’t, is there? I mean, really?

      The whole point is that religion just isn’t an issue here, so no need for any kind of self-indulgent posturing on the subject, trying to claim some kind of superiority. Who cares what anyone else thinks about this? So why self-advertise about it? It risks entirely unnecessary splits over absolutely nothing.

      Like this diversion now…

      ’nuff said…

    237. heedtracker says:

      Your opinion on such irrelevancies is your business, and better to stay that way as far as indy is concerned.

      Telling strangers to shut up online hardly ever works. But Jesus said,

      “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

      I like that a lot but his rep on earth, the queen, is now worth sixty thousand million of your British pounds.

      So you can probably see why I ain’t shutting up any time soon. Although if I get struck down in the next minute, see you in Hell Mr Sutherland:D

    238. galamcennalath says:

      ” Theresa May will take personal charge of Brexit negotiations as she visits Brussels for crucial meetings hoping to clinch an agreement on the Northern Ireland border issue, which has so far proved impossible “

      Oh well then, everything will be just tickity boo.

      http://archive.is/6qwGe

      There were only ever a few outcomes to this fiasco. At one extreme is the cliff jump without a parachute, and at the other stay in the single market with all that entails.

      In between is the stuff of fantasy – super trade deals, cherry picking, best of everything – EU rolls over and subimits to England’s superior will. Nah.

      Any eventual trade deal will be basic and damaging. Importantly, it won’t be allowed to threaten the single market.

      So if May rejects the views of her hard liners and does manage to get past this phase, it’s still going to be a calamity!

    239. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      heedtracker @ 20:46,

      Heaven forfend that you should ever be struck down, heedy.

      How ever would I then find out what’s happening on our old paper, eh? =laugh=

    240. ronnie anderson says:

      Is everybuddy oan communion vino the nite .

    241. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 8.44
      Oh I am sure that their are some who would love to make it an issue Robert.
      We do really need to be careful of that.

      And while I still feel “something” should be said when such comments appear… it is, as you said, no appropriate either to get caught up in a whole theological debate.
      I am happy to leave it here too….

      Nuffs A Nuff Right E Nuff…

    242. Les Wilson says:

      Thinking about Indy1, and possible frauds in the voting system.
      I came across this which may have to make us think a bit more
      on how to get a genuine vote in Indy2. Worth reading as a reminder. What is glaring about this is we NEED independent monitors in place.

      https://joequinn.net/2014/09/28/scottish-referendum-rigged-mi5s-phony-postal-votes-and-ballot-boxes/

    243. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Blimey – it’s like an episode of The Comedians in here tonight.

      Not that I’m complaining…

      😉

    244. Mr Muddle of Dumfries says:

      Michty me, what’s the world coming to? 17/6 for the Queen Mum’s tea cosy!

    245. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Having said it was like an episode of The Comedians in here tonight, I now apologise.

      Just visited YT, watched some clips of The Comedians from the early 70s. Unbelievably toe-curlingly dire, but heartening because it shows how far we’ve progressed as a society in the last few decades.

    246. heedtracker says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      3 December, 2017 at 8:56 pm
      heedtracker @ 20:46,

      Heaven forfend that you should ever be struck down, heedy.

      Still here:D

      I wish Jesus Christ would actually come back, to the UK especially, although he’d been nicked instantly by immigration goons and deported.

    247. stu mac says:

      @heedtracker says:
      2 December, 2017 at 11:52 pm
      Scottish democracy is also rather revolutionary,
      ===============

      Anent this particular point, democracy up here is … well, actually properly democratic (excepting the MSM which since information is a key part of democracy, so we are partially lacking in full democracy.

      However the rest of the UK also has the same anti-democratic MSM problem and of course the antiquated Westminster parliament is badly in need of reform. In fact instead of reform it has been becoming even less democratic in recent decades.

      Thatcher, then New Labour, changed internal regulations so that a system which limited government officials and ministers working for big business has changed so that now we have a revolving door between government at all levels and big business. Several times recently we’ve seen election rules blatantly broken and nothing done about it.

      I’ve not noticed Labour North or South making much comment on this. They are happy to let most of the corruption go hoping they’ll get their “Buggins Turn” and jump aboard the gravy train. The fact that we have a much more democratic system here – and a government actually trying their best for the people they represent – shows what they’ve got at Westminster up for the charade it is. And that’s one more reason why they’d like to shackle it if not do away with it altogether.

    248. ronnie anderson says:

      I just looked back this thread to see where this religious thing started Swiss Cheese at 7.15pm and like swiss cheese religion has as much holes in it whatever religion that may be.

      As Dave Allan said wherever you are may your god go with you but in the name o the weeman go quickly .

    249. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “If you don’t know why Blair, Crash Gordon, Labour, Westminster went to war in the middle east, devastating a secular Islamic country like Iraq, killing and maiming hundreds of thousands of entirely defenceless and innocent Iraqi civilians, I’m not going to waste my broadband explaining how UKOK tory fascism embraces and worships war Rock.”

      Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend, you would need hardly any broadband to answer a simple question, unlike the Gigabytes you waste on waffling here.

      Should the west not have attacked North Korea instead of Iraq, if it was “democracy” and “human rights” they cared about, instead of cheap oil?

    250. stu mac says:

      @TheWasp says:
      3 December, 2017 at 10:53 am
      Al Dossary @ 9.45
      There was a very interesting section about US involvement in rearming Germany during the 1930s,mas used by US troops.
      =========================================

      I came across some stuff, which atm I can’t remember, re US foreign policy leading up to and during WWII. The US saw this as an opportunity for it to become top dog. Supporting Germany – against Russia at first as they were anti Communist. Supporting first the UK then Russia during the war as they then didn’t want a super-power Germany (if Germany won the war).

      Basically they wanted to see the UK (then still a powerful empire though declining), Germany and Russia tear each other apart so that there would only be one big western power. They would have delayed joining the war a bit longer too but Japan kind of forced their hand as did Hitler by immediately supporting his eastern ally and declaring war on the US.

      Of course there were people in the US who genuinely worried about the Nazis and wanted to fight against them but the elite who run things saw things a different way.

    251. heedtracker says:

      Rock says:
      3 December, 2017 at 9:29 pm
      heedtracker,

      Oh god, deliver us from this biblical pain in the arse Rock.

      Amen.

    252. schrodingers cat says:

      INCOMING: New @survation Scotland poll in 2moro’s Daily Record. Here’s a flavour: #indyref2 voting intention: Yes 47% No 53%

    253. Bob Mack says:

      As Buddha said.” Work out your own salvation. Do not depend on others”

    254. Rock says:

      schrodingers cat,

      “For reasons that I find hard to pin down, Peter is certain that the referendum will be held in September 2018, whereas I think a 2018 referendum is close enough to being impossible as makes no difference – although of course I do firmly believe that it should (and probably will) be held before the current mandate expires in May 2021.”

      Against “heavyweights” like yourselves, I can say with 100% confidence that Saint Theresa is not going to give permission to Nicola to hold another referendum before Brexit has been completed.

      I can say with 99% confidence that Nicola will not dare defy Saint Theresa.

      Which means, in my humble opinion, there is a 1% chance of a second independence referendum being held before Brexit has been completed.

      After Brexit has been completed, Scotland will be at the mercy of the Westminster government, with no official status in the EU other than a region of the UK.

      There is 0% chance of winning a referendum held after Brexit has been completed for the next 620 years.

    255. Meg merrilees says:

      Croompenstein

      Is that part-time referee/Tory MP , the same person who ‘forgot’ to vote on the SNP WASPI motion, the one Mhairi Black won, yet he accused the SNP of Political point scoring. Or was it his pal Ross Thompson… either way it looks as if all the tory MP’s ‘forgot’ to vote on that motion.

      I wonder if the guid women of the north east realise they are being ignored and shafted.

    256. heedtracker says:

      Of course there were people in the US who genuinely worried about the Nazis and wanted to fight against them but the elite who run things saw things a different way.”

      Yet American boomed in the post war 50’s and 60’s. Post war USA became rich but it was middle class America that saw the biggest rise in living standards and pay. Look at how the US could afford a very hot war in Vietnam and go to the Moon.

      Then we come to post war Germany. Fact is, the UK and then the USA, in the 80’s, have been totally fcuked by the right, starting with Snatcher Thatcher and Regan, via red tory charlatans like Blair and Brown, culminating today in Orange Hitler and Brexit.

      History is always with us.

    257. Rock says:

      schrodingers cat,

      “Nicola Sturgeon would need to allow ample time for a renewed Section 30 request to be considered, in order to demonstrate that she isn’t just going through the motions in making it. She’ll want to establish in the public mind that she bent over backwards to reach an agreement, and wasn’t hellbent on going it alone.”

      Apart from clueless pompous armchair pundits, the public is actually clever enough to know the difference between “bending over backwards” and “flogging a dead horse”.

      And it is the latter, that Nicola has been doing.

      Quite unexpectedly, a one in a 1000 years golden opportunity arose with the SNP having 56 out of 59 MPs, 50% of the vote, a remain vote in Scotland, the EU’s eyes favourably) on Scotland, the unionist parties without leaders and completely lost.

      That was the moment to strike. Scotland was on the verge of independence.

      But Nicola spectacularly squandered this once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      The result: Nicola outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%, loss of half a million voters and 23 MPs.

      There is no guarantee that the SNP will get a majority in 2021. In my view, it is highly unlikely. The black arts department of the British establishment will make sure it doesn’t happen.

    258. heedtracker says:

      Rock says:
      3 December, 2017 at 9:49 pm
      schrodingers cat,

      Yes we get it Rock, lets sack FM Sturgeon and then it’ll all work for the best.

      God you are one sneaky unionist arsehole Rock.

    259. Meg merrilees says:

      Liz g and others

      https://www.yahoo.com/news/meghan-markle-apos-title-expected-112204016.html

      Here’s an article about a possible future title for ‘Harry and Meghan’. The newspaper went to the editor of Debretts who actually suggested Duke of Sussex as being most likely.
      Ruled out Clarence because they think it is ‘tainted’ and Connaught would be inappropriate. Funny how they accept that an Irish title might not be a good thing… because this next sentence is a belter…

      The Dukes of Cumberland – surely not!!!!!!!, Albany and Teviotdale are suspended so they could become possible titles They really are that thick!

    260. Rock says:

      geeo,

      “There has not yet been a formal request for a S30 order by the SG.

      When that request is made, it MUST be granted, and granted without delay.”

      I can say with 100% confidence that it WILL NOT be granted for any referendum before Brexit has been completed.

      We will soon know who is proved right and who is proved wrong, so kindly reserve your personal attacks till then.

    261. @Chang Sha

      Rees Mogg is waiting in the wings for a potential coup to take Theresa`s place as Prime Minister of United Kingdom,

      very much English nationalist with a hankering for the old days of the class system and the abominations of the Brutish Empire.

    262. ScotsRenewables says:

      You really are an obnoxious wee moron, Rock. You waste a lot of peoples’ time and energy on here. I really don’t see why Stu tolerates you.

    263. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Nae doot a “New Blow for Sturgeon” @schrodingers cat says at 9:33 pm

      “#indyref2 voting intention: Yes 47% No 53%”

      Even though:

      Yes up +1%
      No down -1%

      After so much shite flung our way and wartime levels of hostile Anti SNP/Scots Gov Propaganda Yes still increasing.

      I wonder if it was a landline only survey?

      And this is before Brexit bites.

    264. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “If the Law is scaring you or you distrust it all, try a law degree, OU is fantastic for this kind of academic challenge. You probably wont get a law job but it will make you think.”

      Rock (2nd July 2015 – “The member for The Vow”):

      “Given that the Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low, Carmichael will almost certainly win the case.

      That will be 60,000 pounds of independence supporters’ cash down the lawyers’ drain, while people in Scotland are starving.

      But even if my prediction comes true, we will have no choice but to continue playing the game according to the unionists’ rules.

      We are a pathetic people. Even Ghandi or Mandela couldn’t have done much for us.

      While their people were ready to sacrifice everything, we are meekly hoping that our 56 MPs outnumbered 10 to 1 at Westminster, and 7 to 4 on the Scottish affairs committee, will bring us independence without any suffering.

      If we want to achieve anything, we will need to get out onto the streets, starting with a massive poll tax type boycott of the Pravda GB tax.”

    265. schrodingers cat says:

      Rock

      wasting yer time, i’m not dr dolittle

    266. TheItalianJob says:

      Good result on the Indy Poll. Yes up 2% on the 2014 result.

      Heading in the right direction slow but sure. We Scots are not tolerating the consistent negative spin by the propaganda MSM on the SG and what they are achieving on our so called “hand out” from Westminster.

      We are canny and smart right enough.

    267. TheItalianJob says:

      @JWT

      Good point about the voting intention being even before Brexit “bites”.

      Looking good mon braves.

    268. Liz g says:

      Meg Merrilees @ 9.55
      Oh Meg I really think they could be…
      But stupid the right way…aka sleekit!
      Espically if Charlie opts to be King George

      Then we would have a King George with his 2nd son the Duke of Cumberland….. I actually do think that there are some Scots who would welcome it…and the message it sends!
      And of course we would all be paranoid and living in the past,if we said anything.
      Is the guy still in the Army by chance,dae ye know?

    269. heedtracker says:

      We are a pathetic people. Even Ghandi or Mandela couldn’t have done much for us.

      You’re pathetic you mean Rock.

      No voters are no different from Yes. Most of the Scots that I know who voted no are decent, very decent, hard working, tax paying people. They’re kind and considerate, get up for work everyday, work hard, raise families, and contribute to this Scottish/UK life of ours, regardless of whatever Westminster and their scumbag media do to us all.

      You Rock and the assorted arseholes at the 77th might reflect on all of the above and go out and get proper jobs yourselves.

    270. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @heedtracker (9.17) –

      ‘I wish Jesus Christ would actually come back, to the UK especially, although he’d be nicked instantly by immigration goons and deported.’

      Heedy, ya bass – laughed so hard ah think ah’ve hud a hernia. You owe me a visit and a bunch of grapes.

      🙁

    271. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker @ 10:02,

      Yes, very encouraging stats, given the “Scotland’s not working” guff about near everything we’ve had to endure all year from the gang of usual suspects, echoed by their battery of faithful mouthpieces.

      And not only has Brexit not started yet, an indyref2 campaign hasn’t started yet either.

      We’re not going away, are we, peeps?!

    272. crazycat says:

      @ Meg merrilees at 9.42

      The part-time referee managed to vote for Mhairi’s motion, along with a handful of other Tories. Given his perfomance earlier, though, I don’t class that as a full-sized redeeming feature – maybe an eyelash or two.

    273. Liz says:

      Meg Merrilees @ 9.55
      Is looking like they canny insult us wi butcher Cumberland’s title.
      The suspended bit according to the article means that there may be claims on it,so they can’t use it!

      Although they could, I think, probably get around it if they wanted to….ye know whit thur like!

    274. Thepnr says:

      @TheItalianJob

      Yes we are definitely still headed in the right direction, I wish that dam would burst though and see support for Independence smash through 50%.

      That might just happen then there will be no stopping it.

    275. TheItalianJob says:

      @Thepnr

      Yes agreed and that’s why the establishment is pulling all stops out now to undermine us Independence voters. Look at this year’s GE as an example. Full blown Conservative, Labour and LibDem alliances formed to get the SNP WM politicians out. They did succeed to a certain degree and the SNP lost some big hitters e.g. Alex Salmond and Angus Robertson.

      But the polls are switching back to the SNP with the Cons the biggest losers.

      By the way I enjoyed your posts and story during Indy 2014 on trying to convert you mother in law to Yes.

      Have you succeeded yet?

    276. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      If we are at 47% now we will win a referendum in autumn 2018

    277. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “No voters are no different from Yes. Most of the Scots that I know who voted no are decent, very decent, hard working, tax paying people. They’re kind and considerate, get up for work everyday, work hard, raise families, and contribute to this Scottish/UK life of ours, regardless of whatever Westminster and their scumbag media do to us all.”

      Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend, those very people are the reason Scotland remains a colony of England after 310 years and will remain so for the next 620.

      Perfectly happy with “Westminster and their scumbag media” because it doesn’t hit them in the pocket – the nice SNP protects them and gives them the best of both worlds.

      Pathetic I would say, but let us agree to disagree, as we do on almost everything.

    278. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      “If we are at 47% now we will win a referendum in autumn 2018”

      We were at 51% a week before the last independence referendum.

    279. TheItalianJob says:

      Yes DMH

      Tend to agree with you there. The tide is definitely turning.

    280. Hamish100 says:

      Och

      Another year or so to go. More NoEE’s will meet their maker in the sky before then.
      Rock must be worried.

    281. Thepnr says:

      @TheItalianJob

      My Mother in Law had to come and live with us for 3 months earlier this tear after spending some time in hospital after a fall.

      I didn’t waste the opportunity 🙂 and she left as a committed Yes voter having seen the error of her ways. To be fair all I had to do was show her the Truth compared to what she believed to be the truth.

      Wish they were all as easy, but I’m certain now she will vote YES

    282. Thepnr says:

      3 months with my Mother in Law in the house was a bit of a tear 🙂

    283. Meg merrilees says:

      Re the indy poll

      There is an article in the Times today – behind paywall – titled
      ‘Brexodus in reverse as EU migrants flood into Scotland’

      Surely they’ll vote to stay in Europe and for Indy – and there was me thinking that so many of them would be leaving that it might have a negative effect on the vote.

      Good to hear that the Indy Poll is sitting pretty.

    284. TheItalianJob says:

      @Thepnr

      Well done Sir. And through your posts and endeavours during Indy 2014 through to today I’m sure you have convinced many others to vote Yes.

      We will prevail.

    285. heedtracker says:

      Pathetic I would say, but let us agree to disagree, as we do on almost everything.

      Why don’t you just make a case, any case for this union Rock?

      Do you really think you’re making one, with all this low brow sneaky shit Salmond bad, Sturgeon worse, SNP even more bad, you’re all pathetic Scots really garbage?

      Or is it that there is no actual good case for Scotland, in this union with England Rock, and that’s why?

    286. TheItalianJob says:

      @Meg merrilees

      That’s interesting. Even they must think an Indy vote with EU Nationals being allowed to vote they see some hope in Scotland saving them to stay on in an Independent Scotland in the EU.

      Nice one. Just need to be aware and watch that Westminster don’t try and not allow EU nationals to vote in an Indy ref.

    287. Meg merrilees says:

      Crazycat

      Thanks for the correction on Tory MP voting stats …good to keep the truth out there.

    288. Thepnr says:

      @TheItalianJob @Meg merrilees

      Talking of EU citizens in Scotland I saw this tweet earlier today on the Rev’s feed. As they say in Ireland “It’s a cracker”

      https://twitter.com/solerolady/status/937130824239079425

    289. Sunniva says:

      Off topic maybe, but this RBS closure thing is a bit of a disgrace surely? What are folk to do that live in rural places to bank their cash? Shops, cafes, the like. If the nearest bank is 35 miles away?

      I mean, they’re going to have to keep it on the premises, aren’t they? A safe or something? Then at some point, unless an armoured RBS van comes round to collect (fat chance) somebody’s going to have the chunter the 35 miles (70 round trip) to the bank with maybe thousands of pounds in the back of the car, aren’t they?

    290. TheItalianJob says:

      @Thepnr

      Thanks for the twitter link as I don’t do twitter or Facebook.

      My nephew and his Polish wife were committed Yessers in 2014 and they were also “remainers” like me.

    291. Still Positive says:

      The Italian Job @ 11.16

      Don’t think the Westminster Parliament can veto it as it has already been passed in the Scottish Parliament that EU citizens and 16/17 can vote.

    292. TheItalianJob says:

      @Still Positive at 12.12

      That’s good to hear.

    293. louis.b.argyll says:

      ..the shadowy people behind Brexit..

      Well put! They hide well, their stolen privilege and don’t want foreigners snooping around in their elitist malignancy.

      The desire, by some Scots, to be governed by some Tories from 500 miles away is weirdly disgusting in my opinion.

    294. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      TheItalianJob @ 23:16,
      Still Positive @ 00:12,

      They can fix it by stalling indyref2 until after 29.Mar.2019 – then all EU citizens have no rights and no votes. (Excluded like in the EUref itself.)

      EU residents in Scotland are worth something like 150k votes (and climbing!), given a decent turnout.

      Which is why we must have a decent offer for them, and before Brexit is imposed as well.

    295. Breeks says:

      Swiss Perspective says:
      3 December, 2017 at 7:15 pm

      Headtracker.

      I think you need to take a closer look at the message of Jesus Christ which was very much about empowerment and liberation. Jesus was on the side of the peace-makers and the poor The institutional church has often been misused by power establishments, but there are many people in the Church, ministers, vicars, priests and countless simple parish-goers who work tirelessly in the service of making the world a better place…

      It depends on your perspective. Nazi soldiers in WW2 had “God with Us” on their belt buckles. I am sure a ?reat many earnestly believed it was true.

      I respect the faith of others, but it’s not for me.

    296. twathater says:

      A long but verrrry interesting read , and the implications are so severe for indy2 that it MUST be addressed if we are ever hoping to be successful

      https://docs.google.com/document/d/13OPs4c91U4ggD1XrHWGAig8YOoXbehVSEpGwaJJWtpc/pub

    297. twathater says:

      This link also although dated has a very significant bearing on indy2

      https://joequinn.net/2014/09/28/scottish-referendum-rigged-mi5s-phony-postal-votes-and-ballot-boxes/

    298. twathater says:

      although dated another interesting read with mega implications for indy2 if the SG don’t get it sorted

    299. twathater says:

      Les Wilson 9.06pm sorry Les doubled up on your post as my brain?? fried

    300. Breeks says:

      That really stinks Twathater. Big time.

    301. twathater says:

      Whit part Breeks

    302. twathater says:

      Sorry Breeks get it now obviously i need sleep more than i thought

    303. Meg merrilees says:

      Good Luck to Puigdemont and the jailed Catalan politicians today as they await the decision on their fate.

    304. Petra says:

      @ twathater at 2:45 / 2:48am …….. Thanks for the reminder that things will have to be done totally differently next time round TH. Exit polls for a start off.

      …………………….

      I see that Kezia, not surprisingly, has been bombed out. So much for her getting her message across to millions of young people! The message coming across loud and clear is that she was a failure, a bore and unpopular. A bit like her party in Scotland. Never mind she’ll get a holiday out of it and a few bob to help to pay for any forthcoming bills that she has to meet in the New Year.

      ……………………

      Good luck and best wishes to the Catalan politicians X

    305. heedtracker says:

      Great breakfast links Nana! Thank you.

      Breeks, this is the luck of the draw on planet toryboy teamGB. In God, the tory shits trust, red or blue.

      https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/shocking-nhs-stats-show-nearly-half-esa-claimants-have-attempted-suicide/

    306. Tatu3 says:

      The link to the report from A&B by Mr Anderson was from when? 2014? If so did the police investigate, did the Scottish government investigate? Is there any up to date information about this possible fraud?
      Also can someone tell me please why, in the campaign period before Indy1, was England and English ministers, groups, allowed to campaign? Surely it should have been a purely Scottish campaign? With only the Scottish parties/branches and groups, being involved? After all only residents of Scotland were allowed to vote. As in the EU ref, the campaign was fought in the UK and the EU did not campaign to keep us in or even tell us to go!
      Apologies for asking if the answers to these two questions are obvious, I haven’t lived in Scotland for a very long time.

    307. bjsalba says:

      BBC this AM is not mentioning Irish Border but talks about the other two areas – Financial Settlement and EU Nationals rights. Then goes on to express optimism at the possibility of moving on to Trade Talks.

      If so why was this leaked to Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung?
      http://www.faz.net/aktuell/brexit/f-a-z-exklusiv-eu-bereitet-sich-auf-scheitern-der-brexit-verhandlungen-vor-15319932.html

      EU prepares for failure of Brexit negotiations
      The EU Commission has set up a working group that is preparing for Brexit’s failure. This has the F.A.Z. from internal EU documents. The plans read like a concrete preparation for the worst case.

      From prior reading France has a similar group set up and German Industry has one.

    308. heedtracker says:

      bjsalba says:
      4 December, 2017 at 8:53 am
      BBC this AM is not mentioning Irish Border but talks about the other two areas –

      BBC r4 Today is though, but its Nic Robinson, so its all britnat tory chat, all Leavers, all pro Teresa, absolutely NO opposition whatsoever, shock.

      Or just another day of vote tory from the BBC, probably the most tory corrupt public broadcaster in the free world, Today.

      Next up on BBC r4 tory gimp network, Andrew Marr, and he’s going to smear the pesky Ruskies next.

    309. Sinky says:

      More than a million voters in the General Election may have been influenced by the BBC’S Question Time leaders special, a new study has found.

      A study for the Electoral Reform Society found the programme – when Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn faced an audience days before the poll – swung a third of viewers’ votes.

      Another democratic deficit as the third largest party at Westminster was not given a slot on this influential debate.

    310. heedtracker says:

      Another democratic deficit as the third largest party at Westminster was not given a slot on this influential debate.

      And never will either. So get used to it. BBC are erasing the SNP from their UKOK political scene.

    311. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Next up on BBC r4 tory gimp network, Andrew Marr, and he’s going to smear the pesky Ruskies next.”

      And verily he did, heed, verily he did.

      Putin bogeyman dial up to 10, too.

      Wot a carve up!

    312. heedtracker says:

      Thanks Nana!

      “Thread about postal voted in Aberdeen” is a bit scary. I have a postal vote here too, for ex offshore oil reasons but I’ve not changed it back.

      Easy to get paranoid. Aberdeen’s a small town really, with a fair few very tory, quite wealthy, extremely britnat proud Scotbut zoomers.

      Are they above cheating postal vote wise?

      Do they really need to, relentless BBC Scotland SNP smear campaigning?

      If this is happening in the north east of Scotland today, they can be confident that our deeply corrupt bbc led media will not investigate, let alone report it and that the Electoral Commission is almost completely toothless. Its the perfect tory double whammy.

      ?rthur ???????Stramash?
      @ArthurStramash
      Nov 29
      More
      I checked again. You seem to have a total registered electorate of 67,601. At #GE2017 41,643 voted (61% turnout) and of those 12,121 were postal ballots included in the result. By comparison, only 1.9% of entire NI vote are postal ballots 🙂

    313. galamcennalath says:

      bjsalba says:

      BBC this AM is not mentioning Irish Border but talks about the other two areas

      Guardian reporting, “The Irish government is not immediately ready to approve Brexit talks moving on to the next phase”.

      I also suspect the EU won’t be happy about the money on the table being tied to the outcome of trade talks. The money is for commitments made in the past and needs to be honoured. It has little to do with the future, with the exception of the contribution the UK would have made from 2019-20.

      I suppose it actually depends on whether the EU want to bend everything because they genuinely what to move on. Or, perhaps everything is still too far short of target. This week will tell!

    314. Ottomanboi says:

      Patently Scotland is no longer news worthy. The third largest party in the structurally crumbly UK assembly is, in BritMedia world. the Liberal Democrats.
      We witness the powerwashing of Scots, except for the politically compliant, and Scotland’s interests from the great British scene. Know your place guys, it is not among the decision making elect.
      There is a lesson to be learned from this and a conclusion to be drawn. I do trust we have the nous to rationalise our situation and act, with all urgency, accordingly.

    315. Nana says:

      For updates re the Irish/ Brexit talks situation follow

      https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/937641775467986944

    316. galamcennalath says:

      Thanks @Nana. Interesting.

      “BREAKING: UK will concede that there will be no “regulatory divergence” on the island of Ireland on the single market and customs union, acc to a draft text seen by @rtenews ”

      But then the comments ..

      “Looking forward to Scotland being offered the same!”

      And

      “If they don’t offer Scotland the same deal then devolution will be proved to be worthless. This is going to get interesting.”

      If NI gets to maintain full EU regulatory compliance, why not Scotland too?

      They Tories won’t of course, but it gives strong new fodder for IndyRef2.

    317. Les Wilson says:

      RT news saying they have seen a draught document that the UK has written up and being discussed at no10 this morning, which is saying Ireland N&S, will remain as is, no border.
      But I expect the Mi5 spooks will be upset.

      Rt quotes “According to two well-placed sources”
      Gotta laugh at that, in Westminster they will be spying on each
      other to try and find who the sources are. Excellent.

    318. cearc says:

      Just for a bit of time-consuming fun. How about driving the brexit bus along the value of the pound road?

      https://advisa.se/en/research/brexit-bus/

      Oh, and it seems the ‘world-leading greatish british ever taking control team’ have just bowed over to Ireland. Who’d have guessed it?

    319. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      A very significant point in James Kelly’s excellent summing up of the Survation Poll is one with which a very large percentage of us agree. My reaction to anybody shouting that we talked all the time about independence would have been “Correct. And we intend to continue doing so.”
      I have written to HQ on several occasions making this very point.

      James Kelly says
      “It strikes me that a minority of people within the SNP were determined to learn the wrong lesson from the general election result – they thought the party had talked about independence too much, but it seems far more likely that the opposite is true. Quite plainly independence is significantly more popular at the moment than even the SNP, so it’s hard to see what the harm would be in campaigning on independence more vigorously. Remember that holding the first referendum in 2014 was the key to unlocking vast support for the SNP from ex-Labour voters who might not otherwise have ever made the jump. The recollection of that lesson now that the dust has settled on the general election may explain why the SNP leadership seem much more bullish about a pre-2021 referendum than they were a few months ago.”

    320. Ian Brotherhood says:

      For those who didn’t get Saturday’s National, here’s a link to the excellent essay by Naomi O’Leary.

      ‘Britain’s ignorance of Ireland is leading it blindly into crisis’

      http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/12/03/a-wake-up-call/#comment-363461

    321. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      What we need now is a hands-up moment from the SNP hierarchy to admit that that general election effort (in which all mention of independence was avoided) was a disaster entirely of their own making. It actually had the effect of pissing off activists and losing us members and all across the country local SNP branches are struggling to get turnouts at branch meetings

    322. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      For those who entertain no doubts about the postal vote in the independence referendum the Dunoon Report should open some eyes. There were five areas in Scotland where the postal vote take-up was over 95% which is virtually impossible.

      https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwix3u22p_DXAhWG7hoKHT3WAsEQFggpMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpermalink.php%3Fstory_fbid%3D816197151794309%26id%3D664987453581947&usg=AOvVaw0lvEJT2lRD2Qtpu9xS45M8

    323. cirsium says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill, 12.05

      I archived the Dunoon report. http://archive.is/GhrEF

    324. Les Wilson says:

      There will be small print at the bottom of the EU document which will need a magnifying glass.

      ” These agreements will only stand if the EU as a block, reject Scottish Independence,and actively work against it. failure to carry this out will make this document null and void.”

    325. Iain mhor says:

      @Robert Peffers 4:23pm
      I’m good with most of that but have an issue with “Thing is the UK was the only nation that settled their debts to the USA and that took until 31 December 2006”

      It’s a bit disingenuous. No-one else really had that specific debt – a “Loan” The UK had it because it pissed its Marshall Grant up a tree and had to go cap in hand to the USA for an ‘extraordinary’ loan. One they were disinclined to give.
      As it was, other countries (Notably Germany) paid back their “Grant” in full even though they were under no obligation to do so. Nor did the other countries require to take out a loan.
      It should also be noted in passing, that other beneficiaries of eg: Marshall Plan grants, drew up and presented fiscal, fully accountable plans showing how the monies would be invested. The UK didn’t and to this day no-one knows where the money went.
      So yes, the UK was the only country to repay its loan (debt) because it was the only country with one to the USA.

      As ever, I stand to be corrected.

    326. One_Scot says:

      Have always said if the postal votes are not dramatically tightened up, then we will be in trouble.

      Hopefully lessons have been learnt from the last time, which will hopefully prevent Ruth Davidson calling the result before a single ballot box vote has been counted.

    327. galamcennalath says:

      If appears the UK may have offered a sensible arrangement for NI. We may indeed move forward to trade talks.

      Brexit has been an exercise is lies, deceit, false promises, and duping the gullible voter at every opportunity. We can see the latest twist developing.

      WM and its loyal media are pushing the idea ‘concessions’ have been made in order to ‘buy’ something in the future. That way they try to justify doing that which always had to be done anyway. Their problem is they never made clear what had to be done to voters!

      A good analogy I read was …. in a restaurant you can leave your share on the table and leave, or you can stay behind with your friends – but the bill remains the same. And leaving your share behind doesn’t in any way ensure you have a good taxi journey home!

      The divorce bill had to be paid, if not it would have been pursued through international courts! Citizens right too had to be resolved, preferably not in the court. And Ireland and it fragility had to be respected.

      It will become clear with even the most gullible Leaver that little they have been promised will be delivered. Worst, what will happen will be negative. At some point, this is going to cause political upheaval. In Scotland, hopefully this will mean independence. In England, well, I hope they can achieve modern democracy in their own way.

    328. Robert Graham says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,
      Thanks for the link and info re-postal voting ,

      Of course the usual conspiracy junk will be thrown at this , any questions will be refered to as total fiction , like every other theory until its proved true ,despite all the impediments to ensure the truth is hidden .

      I first thought something wasnt quite right when we saw on our TV screens Ballot boxes being delivered to the Emirates in Glasgow , cars -vans with no type of escort ,just turning up to a pretty confused looking bunch of staff just grabbing anything that came to hand , i thought for such a important vote , we have all this confusion , something is not quite right here .

      The days after the result little things started to make a bit of sense , i lost count of the meetings that were organised only at the last minute for speakers on behalf of the NO side to pull out , leaving the organisers having only one view expressed .

      I wonder why the NO side were so confident that the never bothered turning up to express a defence of their union , its as if it was a forgone conclusion so why bother .

    329. Abulhaq says:

      I often get the impression that Scottish nationalists can’t see the wood ie independence for the trees. Anglo-saxons, which English speaking Scots are culturally, linguistically reason from the particular to the general. Picking away at detail is the besetting sin of anglophones. Failure to determine the global picture hampers strategy. It impedes for example the political strategist from making bold decisions as he/she is constantly searching for particular reasons not to be seen to be ‘rash’. It seems he/she is looking for certainty of outcome where in political praxis certainty of result can never be expected.
      Sympathetic observers of the Scottish political scene are perplexed by the seeming reticence of our leaders to be assertive. We do appear prisoners of events rather than attempting to influence events to suit our ends.
      The ‘might’ of the British state is our enemy. We might start by being less deferential to its ethos, its outmoded conceits.

    330. Jack Murphy says:

      Home for my quick Break and saw all Nana’s links at 7:56am.

      This one made me weep:
      “Revealed: Universal Credit Requires The Terminally Ill To Meet ‘Work Coaches’
      http://archive.is/g1iQq

      It beggars belief how anyone in Scotland can vote for a Tory.Just how can the Tory voters sleep at night I just don’t know.

      I think the expression Truly Toxic Tory has crept back into May’s and Davidson’s agenda. I’ll say no more. 🙁

      “……The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) has been forced to defend the situation, described as “outrageous” and “beyond the pale” by end of life charity Marie Curie…….”

    331. mike cassidy says:

      Catching up after a few days –

      and it was good to find the BBC being handed their testicles yet again for not being the fair, impartial, objective source of news they claim to be.

      http://archive.is/rO5Yc

    332. ScottieDog says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill
      I did watch a presentation about the Argyll votes a while back. I guess there’s nothing we can do about that. Best use of energy is making sure it doesn’t happen again.
      But how do we achieve that?

    333. Undeadshaun says:

      If they can do it for NI if theyby can do it for Scotland!

      https://archive.is/B47gy

    334. Undeadshaun says:

      If they can do it for NI they can do it for Scotland!

      https://archive.is/B47gy

    335. John H. says:

      Undeadshaun 1.14pm.

      If we demand the same for Scotland Westminster will no doubt claim that NI is a special case. I hope that no one in Scotland interprets that as meaning that violence works.

    336. Bill Hume says:

      They can, and they may well do the same deal for Scotland as NI. May can then go to the DUP and say, hand on heart, that NI is being treated exactly the same as another major part of the UK. Whether this will be enough to keep the DUP ‘on side’or not, I cannot say.

    337. Ian Brotherhood says:

      We need all hands on deck if oor ain Crazycat is to reach the £2k target for the new Yes shop in Kilmarnock.

      Only four hours to go and it’s just at £905 (45%)

      Come on abody, let’s do it…

      https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/build-the-yes-campaign-across-east-ayrshire

    338. Robert Graham says:

      Priorities.

      It’s a comfort that our media are certainly keeping up important current events.

      BBC & SKY the ashes & a marriage proposal in Australia , a hint of Mayhems cave in over the Irish border , presented as a good negotiating tactic to progress trade talks,

      Just going to check RT – France 24 or any other EU station for a true reflection of events .

    339. Robert Kerr says:

      Just to remind us all about Electoral Details in Northern Ireland.

      You need a photo I D to present before voting.

      http://www.eoni.org.uk/Vote/Voting-at-a-polling-place.

      No just walking in and giving your name as I have done here in Scotland.

      You need a valid reason for a postal or proxy vote.

      http://www.eoni.org.uk/Vote/Voting-by-post-or-proxy.

      I accept that voting in N Ireland is for the most part binary, Nationalist or Unionist, but surely that must also be the case in our next IRef.

      If the Britnats concede special Brexit status to N Ireland then they must also concede same to Scotland and it follows that identical voting registrations to both N Ireland and Scotland MUST also apply.

      Further an amusing but loaded question on the location of the EU/England border would be “Stranraer or Gretna?”

      The game is really afoot peeps.

    340. One_Scot says:

      Not really following this very well, but has Ireland just become unified with an imaginary border in the DUPs head.

    341. Robert Graham says:

      Moray Council pleading poverty,

      Oh Dear how sad ,

      I am sure that the Unionist councillors you elected will sort things out for you, and the truly tragic information that the councils reserve funds might run out in three years, yep not 3 weeks 3 Years .

      Your councils plea for more funding, might be better directed to the recently elected Tory MPs who seem to be able to get things done in Scotland, and according to Ruth the Mooth the best way forward, or you could maybe increase your Council tax , just a thought the ones who can afford a bit more can possibly make a contribution .

      Maybe yer part Time referee mr Ross or is it part time mp mr Ross can chip in , maybe donate his match fee , that should get a few bins emptied, until then your heart felt pleas will be filed in the same bin as the VOW , let’s see what’s attended to first, — Tough Shit eh folks .

    342. John de Soulis says:

      Given the fiddling that we know went on, should we not set up/fund, or at least find out more about how to set up an exit poll of our own?

      Exit polling seemed to frighten them. So let’s make sure there is a poll conducted in the next referendum.

    343. Highland Wifie says:

      @ John H 1.28
      “I hope that no one in Scotland interprets that as meaning that violence works.”

      No, I would expect Scots to be emulating our friends in Catalonia where that’s concerned.
      However, it does demonstrate the importance of the judicious use of political power where necessary and a warning against giving up any leverage we have. Do we really think WM would have given any consideration to Ireland without them wielding the power they had?

      Let the games begin.

    344. gus1940 says:

      The fact that our colonial masters and their media fan club appeared to have dropped all mention of The Great Queensferry Bridge Disaster Fiasco would appear to indicate that all the hypocritical jumping up and down and huffing and puffing failed to impress the public who saw what was obvious that it was just another example of the everyday infantile political opportunism excreted over us daily.

    345. Proud Cybernat says:

      BREAKING from Pravda Quay
      with Jackie Kim Ono

      https://imgur.com/a/Ip1H1

    346. call me dave says:

      The Guardian: Brexit…Ireland.

      https://archive.is/B47gy

      Waiting to see the dust settle later today…maybe.

      PS:

      Hamish arrived today a bit squashed and toosled but fine now. 🙂

    347. Ref gus1940

      The new Sir Ian Wood multi-storey car park at Aberdeen Royal Infirmary was opened for one day to small celebrations.
      The lifts and lights didn’t work so it’s been closed for weeks.
      No one blamed the Lab/Tory Aberdeen Council.
      It’s true, the MSM and opposition MSPs must have their own agenda, nothing to do with the public good.

    348. Bill Hume says:

      “And the walls came crumbling down”
      We need to increase popcorn production.

    349. Thepnr says:

      London Mayor want’s a “special deal” like NI
      https://twitter.com/SadiqKhan/status/937687376167604225

      Nicola Sturgeon wants one for Scotland too
      https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/937675437764960257

      Theresa May and plenty of Tory Brexiteers will be waking up with headaches tomorrow. It’ll all fall apart very fast, I hope 🙂

    350. Dan Huil says:

      Aye, Westminster britnats have painted themselves into a painful red, white and blue corner. [Oh dear what a shame] They seem to be eager to betray their britnat chums in the north of Ireland. It seems a de facto re-united ireland is on the cards. Thus another crumbly domino will fall and the so-called united kingdom continues to disintegrate. Game about to be over.

    351. Brian Powell says:

      If there were a deal for NI, bringing out the argument, but Scotland voted to stay in the UK so it goes along with the England and Wales, wouldn’t work because NI votes to stay with the UK every GE.

    352. Petra says:

      Does anyone know if the Wetherspoon owner supports independence for Scotland, lol?

      https://uk.yahoo.com/finance/news/brexit-tap-jd-wetherspoon-hands-500000-beer-mats-exposing-brexit-lies-100314313.html

      ………………………………………

      @ Robert Kerr says at 1:56 pm ….. ”You need a valid reason for a postal or proxy vote. I accept that voting in N Ireland is for the most part binary, Nationalist or Unionist, but surely that must also be the case in our next IRef….”

      /www.eoni.org.uk/Vote/Voting-by-post-or-proxy.

      Thanks for that Robert. This should definitely be introduced in Scotland. That and ensuring that Exit Polls are carried out. Absolutely essential. Worth watching if you haven’t seen it before.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEzY2tnwExs

      …………………………………….

      ‘ENVIRONMENTAL projects in Scotland receive 20 times less private grant funding than in England and Wales, according to a study to be published this week.

      Environment charities north of the border are losing out to to those down south, despite the importance of Scotland’s unique natural heritage.

      Major funding disparities have been criticised by environmental groups, who want more money to be spent in Scotland. They say it’s crucial that Scotland receives its fair share of grants.

      The report has been compiled by the Environmental Funders Network and is the first to examine the situation in Scotland. It analysed 1,347 grants from various sources between 2012 and 2016 totalling £80 million.

      Private foundation grants amounted to £1 per head in Scotland compared to £2 per head in England and Wales, the report concludes. The money equated to £70 per square kilometre in Scotland and £768 per square kilometre in England and Wales.

      “Whichever way you look at it, Scotland’s environment appears to get a rum deal in terms of philanthropic support,” the report says.

      It points out that Scotland accounts for 56 per cent of the UK’s coastline, but coastal and marine ecosystems received only three per cent of grant funding from foundations, the Lottery and other sources. “Climate and atmosphere-related work receives even less – a tiny 0.4 per cent of all grants by value,” the report adds.

      “This suggests very little available funding for campaigning work on climate change or air quality, though the latter is a particular problem in Scotland’s cities.”

      Hugh Raven, chair of the Environmental Funders Network, pointed out that philanthropic trusts and foundations are an important source of money for charities. “It’s disappointing to see how little is available in Scotland compared to England and Wales,” he said………..’

      http://world.auke.hu/news/scotland-losing-out-on-green-grants

    353. Bob Mack says:

      One Scot

      Basically if there is convergence ,then N Ireland would come under EU legal jurisdiction whilst the rest of the UK did not.
      Degrees of separation.,

    354. Breeks says:

      One_Scot says:
      4 December, 2017 at 2:05 pm

      Not really following this very well, but has Ireland just become unified with an imaginary border in the DUPs head….

      I’d say technically no, but it is much closer to it yes, but therein lies the problem for Scotland. The “deal” as presented so far means no “new” border hard or soft being created in Ireland. But the exact same deal for Scotland would see the creation of a border. There would have to be a customs check between EU aligned Scotland and non EU aligned England.

      I’d like to think the EU will go for that, but that’s not a sure thing by some considerable distance, and even if the EU does like the idea, Westminster is still their only recognised sovereign interlocutor to agree terms with. Sadly, it looks like Scottish Independence is remaining a matter of internal domestic “regional” politics for the foreseeable…

      Sounds bleak, but the foreseeable might be very tricky to actually foresee…

      But PLEEEEAAAASSSEE can we be dogged and inflexible for this point forward. No more shooting ourselves in the foot with unforced compromises to find a solution. We need a watershed issue.

    355. Mark Fletcher says:

      In HOC today, I see a new Tory attack line opening up on the SNP government – a lack of ambition in the provision of affordable housing!

      It seems to be policy to target areas of conspicuous SNP success and to deride them using bare-faced lies and distortion.

    356. Thepnr says:

      @Breeks

      There would have to be a customs check between EU aligned Scotland and non EU aligned England.

      I also believe that the same will now apply between NI and UK. This “new border” will be just as big a headache for NI as the one supposedly just resolved with Ireland.

      Somehow I don’t think this has been thought through at all.

    357. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Nana @ 14:27,
      call me dave @ 14:30,

      That tweet by Foster and the apparent guarantee by May to the Irish of continuing “regulatory alignment” between NI and the Republic can only both be true if May expects that the (now likely) phase 2 will conclude with the UK as a whole remaining in the single market.

      So either UKGov Brexit policy has changed or somebody’s being economical with the verité.

    358. Petra says:

      Ooops!

      http://www.eoni.org.uk/Vote/Voting-by-post-or-proxy

      ……………………………………………

      Ha, ha, ha. What a shambles. First responses to Nicola.

      Rob Coster #FBPE?
      @bertnotbob

      Replying to @NicolaSturgeon

      Go on Nicola get stuck in…one request, can you extend the Scottish border 10 miles south?

      David White?
      @ytdaveyt

      Might as well round it up to 400.

      https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/937675437764960257

      …………………………………………..

      Get the popcorn ready for the high noon shootout, folks.

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15700693.DUP_will_oppose_any_Brexit_deal_that__separates__Ireland_from_rest_of_UK/

    359. Thepnr says:

      The best possible trade deal that the UK can get with the EU would involve remaining in the single market and customs union.

      If that was to be achieved wouldn’t freedom of movement of people and services also have to be agreed.

      Is there even going to be a Brexit?

    360. heedtracker says:

      Snap GE 2, on the way? Teresa gets a chance to fall on her own sword, retire to the south coast with her husband’s hedge fund millions.

      Arlene Foster?Verified account
      @DUPleader
      44m44 minutes ago

      We will not accept any form of regulatory divergence which separates Northern Ireland economically or politically from the rest of the United Kingdom.

    361. ScottieDog says:

      @gus1940
      Overheard a conversation in the park the other day – in a reasonably salubrious part of fife. It was all about the queensferry crossing. I edged closer – being nosey and expecting the SNP bad line.
      Must say I was pleasantly surprised. Both people (one from overseas) thought the whole thing had been completely blown out of proportion. Maybe things are getting through!

    362. Petra says:

      ‘Differentiated Solutions for Scotland.’

      http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0051/00512073.pdf

      ……………………………………..

      Where does your ice come from? Smelly London?

      ‘…Earlier this year, faecal bacteria was found in samples of iced drinks from Costa, Starbucks, and Caffe Nero.’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15698086.Scotland_has_the_best_water_in_the_world_____but_are_we_importing_London_ice_for_our_drinks_/

      …………………………………………….

      ‘SNP’s Fergus Ewing accuses Tory MPs of spreading misinformation over broadband and selling Scotland short.’

      ‘…Wrongly suggesting that Holyrood has authority over broadband, May responded: “Members of the Scottish National Party come down here to Westminster, they spend a lot of time talking about powers for the Scottish Government.

      “Actually, it’s time the Scottish Government got on with using its powers for the benefit of the people in Scotland.” ….’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15698045.Tories_accused_of_spreading_misinformation_over_broadband_and_selling_Scotland_short/

      ………………………………………

      Wee Wullie gone all quiet for once?

      ‘Senior LibDems won’t intervene after councillors back savage Tory cuts.’

      ‘SCOTTISH LibDem leader Willie Rennie and the party’s under pressure UK deputy leader Jo Swinson have refused to get involved in a row over the party’s East Dunbartonshire councillors siding with the Tories to cut a redundancy scheme for employees.

      Unison, GMB and Unite trade unions have suspended partnership working with the council and have launched a vigorous protest against the LibDems in particular. It was the LibDem group backed by Tory councillors who met behind closed doors last month and voted to defeat the SNP administration and Labour councillors in slashing the terms of the council’s voluntary severance arrangements, paving the way for compulsory redundancies….’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15698118.Senior_LibDems_won_t_intervene_after_councillors_back_savage_Tory_cuts/

    363. crazycat says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood

      Just got back in from buying The National and saw your post at 1.31.

      Thanks (blushes).
      I felt uncomfortable about raising it, so put in Off-Topic, but either from that or from your transferring it here, there has been a small surge in donations.

      Two hours to go.

    364. meg merrilees says:

      https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/build-the-yes-campaign-across-east-ayrshire

      Only 2 hours left for Crazycat to raise the necessary £2,000 for the YES shop in East Ayrshire. Crowdfunder closes at 5.41 today and we’re about £800 short.

      C’mon folks, please contribute – we’re gonna need this fighting fund pretty soon.

      Reposting Ian Brotherhood’s link…

    365. ronnie anderson says:

      http://www.facebook.com/grahambrownband New song launch Dec 16th

    366. Petra says:

      Another two ”flabbergasted”people who’ll go on to vote for Independence? Maybe? Keep it up Westminster. You’re doing a grand job, lol.

      ‘French wife of Royal Marine denied residency card despite living in the UK for 24 years.’

      ‘The UK Government’s promises that no EU nationals will have to quit Britain because of Brexit look flimsy following the case of Francoise Milne, wife of the head of the Royal Botanic Garden in Edinburgh.

      Her husband Simon – a member of the honorary Queen’s Bodyguard and a Royal Marines officer for 20 years – hit out yesterday at what he called an “extraordinary decision” to refuse his wife of 24 years and the mother of their three children, who are all UK citizens, a residency card.

      Simon Milne, 58, who is also an honorary professor of Edinburgh University and an MBE, said he was “flabbergasted” by the government’s decision in October that his wife was not “self sufficient” enough to gain a card.

      The case was raised in parliament by their local MP, the SNP’s Deidre Brock.

      Brock told the House of Commons that Milne “is French and has lived in the UK – mainly in Scotland – for 24 years. She has been married to a Scot for those 24 years and they have three children together.”

      She added: “She has been refused a residency card for not exercising her treaty rights. She maintained the family home and reared three children while her husband served in the Marines, including on tours of duty in Bosnia and in Northern Ireland.

      “He spent more than two decades in service and rose to the rank of lieutenant colonel. He is a member of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen at Arms, which is perhaps more commonly known as the Queen’s Bodyguard. The Home Office says that his wife cannot prove that she can support herself. Her husband’s income and her smaller income together provide the matrimonial home and family life…..”

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15699527.French_wife_of_Royal_Marine_denied_residency_card_despite_living_in_the_UK_for_24_years/?ref=mr&lp=8

    367. Thepnr says:

      It’s these little Yes groups and their volunteers that will help get the message out around Scotland. Not just when the time comes but all the time.

      Support if you can, just over £700 needed in the next two hours.

    368. Petra says:

      @ crazycat says at 3:38 pm …. ”Ian Brotherhood – Just got back in from buying The National and saw your post at 1.31. Thanks (blushes). I felt uncomfortable about raising it, so put in Off-Topic, but either from that or from your transferring it here, there has been a small surge in donations. Two hours to go.”

      Put an address up Crazycat. Such as of your premises. Some people don’t like to donate online. Would rather just send a cheque or hand money in. And remember to add who it’s to be paid to.

    369. Thepnr says:

      Thanks Nana.

      I broke protocol and just put a link for RTE live at exactly the same time on the MT. Oops but worth it on this occasion. I’m having a great laugh 🙂

    370. Nana says:

      If you missed the press release, it was very short and basically this is the outcome

      Juncker despite our best efforts it was not possible to reach a complete agreEment today

      Juncker: still confident we can reach sufficient progress before the December summit

      Theresa May: we’ve been negotiating hard and a lot of progress made. On a couple of issues some differences do remain, which require further negotiation and consultation

    371. crazycat says:

      @ Petra and everyone else

      Thank you.

      We do understand that some people don’t like online donations – but until we know exactly what our opening hours will be it could be tricky getting post delivered.

      If people want to call by, though, we’re at 31 Titchfield Street, Kilmarnock. We are Yes East Ayrshire (there’s a Facebook page, but I don’t have an account so don’t use it).

    372. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Need another £713 in this pot in the next 90 mins or so…

      It’s for Crazycat’s new Yes shop in Kilmarnock!

      If, like me, you can’t donate right now, please at least get the link out there. Tick tock…

      😉 🙂 🙂

      https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/build-the-yes-campaign-across-east-ayrshire

    373. Nana says:

      @Thepnr

      lol, let me know if you need some arnica for the bruising from the hammer blows.

    374. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dave McEwan Hill @ 11:58
      Breeks @ 15:00,

      I’m with you both there. The loss of SNP self-confidence in their core project into and especially after the UKGE was very unfortunate, and I fear it may ultimately cost us very dear indeed.

      The ongoing attempt by the SG to keep us (all?) in the single market has an upside and a downside.

      If the UK were to firmly remain in the single market, it would make a transition to an iScotland within the same single market a non-issue, that’s true.

      But the downside may now be becoming apparent. What if UKGov (increasingly being directed over Brexit now by May and not Davis) agrees to remain fully within the single market but only for a transition period of (say) 3 years? Then the current SG mandate for an independence referendum based on being dragged out of it (rather than the EU as a whole) loses virtually all its immediate justification at a stroke.

      A chance for the current UKGov to “kick the can down the road” and in the meantime get everyone mentally resigned via an initially low-attrition slow-mo exit with a belated sting in the tail.

      Then there’s the 2021 Holyrood elections coming along, and then what…?

    375. One_Scot says:

      I’m beginning to think that May has not thought this Brexit thing through properly.

    376. Thepnr says:

      Thepnr says:
      4 December, 2017 at 2:44 pm

      Theresa May and plenty of Tory Brexiteers will be waking up with headaches tomorrow. It’ll all fall apart very fast, I hope ?

      Must admit I didn’t expect things to fall apart that quick LMAO

    377. Support for Independence rising,

      even through all the full scale anti SNP war waged by BBC/STV and the gutter press,

      Nicola and SNP doing it the right way,as Aesop said “Slow and steady wins the race”

      lots of calls from Indy folk for premature referendums that would have put us back a generation,

      think even these doubters on this blog must see and get fully behind the strategy of Nicola and the SNP.



    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




    ↑ Top