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Fenian blood never failed me yet

Posted on May 17, 2016 by

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    1. 18 05 16 00:57

      Fenian blood never failed me yet | speymouth

    136 to “Fenian blood never failed me yet”

    1. Frank Mooney says:

      Alch! Excellent!

    2. Simone says:

      Bonus cartoon, we are lucky.

      And it’s bloody brilliant

    3. Conan the Librarian™ says:

      The bee’s knees.

    4. cearc says:

      Naughty but nice!

    5. Alan McHarg says:

      The unionists would have it a damn sight deeper if they could get away with it to put an end to the SNP/Independence question once and for all!

    6. jimnarlene says:

      A nutter from both sides, of the stupidity coin, should’ve been included; purely for balance you understand.

    7. Jamie says:

      I wonder what a nutter from the other side “of the stupidity coin” would say? Possibly glorify a political group with the aim of achieving independence? That would deserve criminal charges for sure…

    8. Scott Cameron says:

      “The cry was Murdo Fraser, OBFA and you’ll die…..”

    9. Tery says:

      I don’t believe how stupid the opposition is. The first thing they get their dander up about is a bill that’s supported by the public. Ha ha. An own goal. How appropriate.

      Sturgeon will boot these lot into the back of the net.

      Ps. Loads of Indy folk are saying they will vote out. Well bye bye Hollrood if they do. Indy 2 first peeps then vote out if you wish. Otherwise Indy 2 won’t come about and Scotland will sink – shackled to the Tory uk

    10. bobajock says:

      The quality of an argument distilled.

    11. Henichen says:

      As an atheist, i struggle to know why anti-religous chanting is more offensive than pro terrorism chanting. Thinking back to hebdo. Its about time we stopped giving religion the power to control us through the courts or through a weapon.

    12. I’m afraid some people don’t yet realise that the “other side ” (as described carelessly above) are now very strongly with us.

    13. jimnarlene says:

      @ Jamie, not sure what you mean?

      I don’t understand why one side of the SAME religion, hates the other; especially as both communities were being used, to further the agendas of men who wanted to sit on a throne.

      It, religious bigotry, should be consigned to history, for that is where it belongs.

    14. Jamie says:

      One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. Let us just recall a simple fact, Ireland requested the right of independence, this was rejected, they then proceeded to fight for their independence and in the end took it. Was William Wallace a terroist? I personally do not think so.

    15. Jamie says:

      jimnarlene – Name me one song that Celtic fans sing that mentions the protestant religion? The only Celtic songs I know of that are ever used to convict Celtic fans are songs that glorify the independence of Ireland and the struggle to gain it without mention of any religion. I put it to everyone that only one side mentions religion, and the picture let’s those in doubt aware which side that is.

    16. MacRocker says:

      From what I’ve read, Liverpool had the same problem as Glasgow with Catholic and Protestant sectarianism yet it has now virtually disappeared there.

      It is hard to know why the two cities are different but hopefully with any luck, the Red Tories get kicked out everywhere next year and new forward looking councils can implement policies that help tackle sectarianism better than the current lot.

    17. Bob Mack says:

      @Jamie,

      Presumably you have not heard “off to dublin in the Green” fan version.?

    18. jimnarlene says:

      @Jamie
      I couldn’t tell you any songs, that either side sing at football games, or elsewhere; not being a fan of either team, nor indeed football.

      As I said, I don’t think bigotry has a place in modern Scotland, I’m an atheist and I don’t understand why it, the Catholic vs Protestant divide, gets perpetuated; it benefits Scotland in no way.

    19. Ghillie says:

      Crab and Goyle.

    20. JustTheFacts says:

      42 charges included behaviour that was derogatory towards Roman Catholicism, a decrease from 46 charges last year and 88 charges in 2012-13. Six charges included behaviour derogatory towards Protestantism, a decrease from 11 last year and 16 charges in 2012-13. One charge included behaviour derogatory towards Judaism and one charge was in relation to behaviour derogatory to Islam.
      http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Offensive-Behaviour-Act-evaluation-published-19ec.aspx

    21. AhuraMazda says:

      The word “sectarianism” is really a sort of diplomatic device and code word for picking on innocent Catholics and Celtic fans. Over 90% of the sectarian problems we face derive from one side of the divide. We all know that.

      In a bid to try to make it sound like a more palatable two-sided problem, we call it sectarianism and say things like “both sides are to blame”. History suggests otherwise. It’s a bit like saying both sides were to blame for the racial problems of the deep south in the 50s.

      People don’t even know they are doing it. Just yesterday nearly everybody on here was advocating an attack on Catholic schools. In diplomatic code that’s a “noble crusade to close down faith schools”.

      History books are generally pretty clear on noble crusades; they are the real bloody and nasty chapters.

      If 266 out of 270 faith schools are catholic schools, closing down faith schools is an attack on catholic schools and an attack on catholicism. That’s a no-brainer.

      Did anybody think to ask the catholics if they wanted their faith schools closed down? I went to a non-faith school, they shoved religion down our throats constantly. I guess that’s what catholics can expect if the anti-faith school campaign wins.

      Basically the plan is to get rid of their faith and replace it with some presbyterian notion of faith. I guess most on here are fine with that. Just last week someone on here was arguing that Scotland’s tendency towards socialism and altruism had its roots in presbyterianism. Nobody skipped a beat.

      “This little light of mine… let it shine for Jesus.”

      I know a few Catholics. Most of them are very smart, well educated. My guess is they get a better education than those of us who attend non-denominational schools. They know Latin and stuff. They’re also just as open-minded about the idea of religion being a pile of horse shit as the rest of us.

      Clarity and substance as always, my friends.

    22. Ghillie says:

      I don’t pretend to know what a real and immediate solution to this problem could be but the OBFA does seem to be to be a move in the best direction.

      Am not hearing anything clever being suggested as an alternative. The existing laws certainly didn’t seem to be working.

      Long-term solutions, working within communities and with the next generation of football supporters, breaking a cycle of hatred and appaling behaviour is exactly that, a necessary but long-term solution.

      Nice cartoon Chris.

    23. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The word “sectarianism” is really a sort of diplomatic device and code word for picking on innocent Catholics and Celtic fans.”

      Oh do fuck off. 84% of prosecutions under OBFA are for anti-Catholic sentiment.

    24. carjamtic says:

      Hello,Hello…here’s the news,where you are.

      A&E miss their target…………

      ‘Toe sucking,aye Fergie…..aye,it’s cool man,they call it a Royale with Cheese…..true by the way’

    25. Jamie says:

      AhuraMazda – A lot of factually correct points, maybe a wee bit too straight to the point though as afterall Catholics are a minority and minorities are not supposed to stand up and be heard but be quiet and take what they are given…

      Ghillie – I guess the alternative would be that if someone is singing a song and is also being aggresive e.g kicking or hitting somone they should be charged for assault.

      If someone is committing domestic abuse apparently because of a football match the person should be convicted of domestic abuse. If people are telling me the punishment should be worse because the domestic abuse took place during a football match, I say that is madness, a punch to the face is just as sore during a football match as when one is not being played both instances should rightly be severly punished as all domestic abuse should be.

    26. AhuraMazda says:

      Thanks Rev, you give me my point and it’s always useful to back up a point with hard facts.

      I said 90% as a guess.

      So by your measure, 84% of what we call sectarian attacks are in one direction. That’s essentially what I am saying, so why call it a sectarian problem? It’s really a Rangers problem.

      Ergo, we don’t have a two sided sectarian problem. We have an anti-Catholic problem. Why not call it that?

    27. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Catholics are a minority and minorities are not supposed to stand up and be heard but be quiet and take what they are given…”

      Once again: spare us this wallowing-in-victimhood pish. 84% of OBFA prosecutions are for offences AGAINST Catholics, and the Act’s entire existence was triggered by offences against Catholics (particularly a Celtic manager).

      “If people are telling me the punishment should be worse because the domestic abuse took place during a football match”

      No, absolutely nobody is doing that.

    28. schrodingers cat says:

      Did anybody think to ask the catholics if they wanted their faith schools closed down? I went to a non-faith school,

      um, i went to a catholic primary and was brought up a catholic

      i would withdraw state funding tomorrow for all religious activities in these schools

      sorted

    29. George Wood says:

      When I was at primary school, pupils used to go down the road to the catholic school to fight with them. We didn’t really know what catholics were, but they were different because they went to a school that wasn’t based so much on where they lived but on what they were.

      In secondary, I naively gave the wrong answer when asked by some catholic school pupils as to which football team I wanted to win at the weekend – Scotland or Ireland. Saying Scotland resulted in a kicking for myself.

      In my experience, faith schools either cause problems that weren’t there in the first place or exacerbate problems that already exist. We would be far better taking religion out of schools altogether.

    30. geeo says:

      Great cartoon as ever..

      I went out with a catholic girl when i was about 16, she hated religion and i just didnt see the point of it.

      Her parents were pretty keen practicing catholics however. After a time i met them, and within minutes i was asked if i was a catholic.
      Of course, being me, i was as brutally blunt as i am now and stated that i didnt see the point of religion in ANY form, personally, but respected the rights of others to believe what they wanted.

      Her parents went mental !!

      Apparently, it would have been at least a wee bit acceptable if i was a protestant, as at least i would be a Christian !

      I was ‘requested’ to leave after i responded that they were not exactly taking a very Christian attitude towards me, and they had only asked a single question of me.

      I never dated anyone with an overly eager religious viewpoint again, it seemed not to be worth the bloody hassle.

      As a Falkirk fan, one week i was a “fenian bastard”, the next, an “orange hun cunt”.

      They were both wrong, i have supported Falkirk all my life, i was a masochist !!

    31. Jamie says:

      schrodingers cat – I would increase funding for faith schools tomorrow. It is widely reported that they tend to record better exam results than other schools. I found this after a quick search

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/secondaryeducation/3852653/Faith-school-pupils-outperforming-others-at-every-age.html

      I have also seen news reports saying a similar thing.

    32. Truth says:

      @AhuraMazda

      I really don’t think it’s an anti catholic problem as you suggest.

      They see themselves as Brits and they hate us Scots as much as they hate the Irish. I don’t think Catholicism actually comes into it.

      They refer to Catholics as a proxy for Irish.

      For the 16% the other way, which by your reckoning isn’t a problem, are they anti Protestant? Surely they can’t be anti British? Maybe that’s it!

      Maybe the whole thing isn’t religion after all and is merely distasteful behaviour relating to the independence of Ireland. One side concentrating on the sacrifices and struggles to obtain it, and the other resenting the loss.

      One things certain in my book, both “sides” most certainly do have a problem.

    33. Truth says:

      @Jamie

      Did you read your article or just the headline?

      “Critics claim that higher scores are achieved because faith schools use admissions policies to cream off middle-class pupils.”

      And those critics would be correct.

    34. Jamie says:

      All schools use their admission policies to cream off middle class pupils because all schools are competing to be the best so that is an invalid statement by the critics.

    35. Ghillie says:

      I do not think Faith or faith, or religion of ANY denomination or where or how we school our children is any excuse for the recreational violence we see at some football matches.

      And most definitely is not the source of wars and hatred throughout the history of the world.

      All of the religions I know of are based on love and caring for our neighbours. Every one.

      George Wood @ 1.32 am: you make the very interesting point that it was because the youngsters at the ‘other’ school seemed to be different. Humans seem to have to a problem with that.

      On top of that there is an historical background in Glasgow, of Protestants and Catholics being set up against each other by the political/economic climate of the 1800s (Robert Peffers! Help!! I don’t know enough about the history!)

      There is nothing inherently wrong with anyone’s choice of Faith or not. The problem lies in any individual who would do ill to any other being. Homogenising the entire human race into athiests is not going to miraculously bring about peace and harmony among the populations of Earth. Quite the opposite.

      Love thy neighbour = )

    36. AhuraMazda says:

      George Wood: “When I was at primary school, pupils used to go down the road to the catholic school to fight with them… In my experience, faith schools either cause problems that weren’t there in the first place or exacerbate problems that already exist. We would be far better taking religion out of schools altogether.”

      This is very typical. With one breath you talk about pupils from your school going to great lengths to visit a catholic school and attack the pupils, in the next you say we need to close catholic schools down.

      Stand back and look at what you are saying for what it is. It sounds to me like the problem of catholic schools is that because of them you need to walk to get your hands on the catholics; I suppose it would be easier for you if they shared the same playground so that you could attack them there.

      Truth: “For the 16% the other way, which by your reckoning isn’t a problem, are they anti Protestant? Surely they can’t be anti British? Maybe that’s it!”

      You assume that the 16% is Celtic fans attacking Rangers fans. I can’t remember the exact numbers but it isn’t as many as 16%, some other teams’ fans played a part too.

      Here’s a very odd and difficult to comprehend thing that happens just about everywhere where you have one larger group victimising a minority. The victimised group tend to fight back, defend themselves, and even on occasion instigate attacks against those who persecute them. Goodness gracious me.

      It’s so hard to explain, isn’t it? I mean, here we have a clear situation where a particular religious group are being attacked and persecuted, as they have been for years, and the bastards have the nerve to react in an entirely predictable way.

      It would be a lot easier for everybody if they turned the other cheek and lay down and died like well-behaved victims should.

      Incidentally, I agree if we were to be more specific that the attacks seem to target Irish-Catholic immigrants and their descendants rather than just catholics. I don’t see where that gets us but yes, you are right on the score.

      “they hate us Scots as much as they hate the Irish” — They seem to, I agree. But at least they recognise you as Scots. The slogan WATP translates to something like “this is our country and you are an immigrant.”

      The history of this stuff shouldn’t be so neglected in these discussions either. I don’t see how you can possibly look at the present here in isolation of the past, as bad as the present is.

      It was only 100 or so years ago that Irish people were being described and depicted as ape-like in journals and newspapers in Britain. That’s all on the record, along with the SPL (not the Scottish Premier League, btw) and the role of the Church of Scotland, Orange Order, and the rest.

      The whole subject fills me with nausea and boredom, btw.

    37. “Soon there’ll be no Prodistents at all.”

      I support a United Ireland, but the Buckfast Brigade singing in crowds in the street do not “Republicans” maketh, especially the Green Brit variety, like the whole of the Royal, Loyal, Sellick Board, or “Celtic Fans For Labour” and the Jim Kellys.

    38. Bob Mack says:

      Religion has played a part in many acts of persecution on these islands. We have had people maimed ,burned,or brutally tortured for either being Catholic or protestant, depending on which monarchy was in power.

      We have actually exported this bigotry all over the world. A prime example is that the American President cannot be a Catholic,as the Queen or King of the UK cannot be Catholic.

      Religious leaders of all denominations have been backing these acts for centuries

      Humankind has inevitably morphed religion into something that started with noble intentions into something which empowers even the most heinous acts with spiritual permission from their chosen God. Sad.

    39. Bob Mack says:

      To clarify my last post,the only exception to the Presidency of the US being a Catholic was the famous JFK.
      In order to run for the presidency however he had to appear be for the Methodist Council of Bishops in 1959 ( I think), to reassure them that his faith would not in any way affect his tenure in office as President.

      Without their sanction he could not have run for president.
      They say faith played no part in democracy?

    40. Adam Davidson says:

      It took a second for it to click why it was knees and not neck.

      So many people are looking for logic behind who hates who; it is mostly Catholics or whatever. As any rational person knows, there isn’t logic behind it. It is simply ingrained bigotry handed down over generations. Someone I work with is very much into the Orange Walk which is very bizarre as he is actually a very sensible guy. His whole family do it; dad, mum, sisters. It is a big event in their year. I asked him what the purpose is. Why do they do it, what is the aim, what do they want to accomplish. He couldn’t answer, got embarrassed then angry. (I wasn’t being argumentative, I kick with both feet) I was truly interested.

      Rev, I love your comments to people. Your diplomat of the year award is on its way.

    41. Robert Penffers says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill says: 17 May, 2016 at 11:29 pm:

      “I’m afraid some people don’t yet realise that the “other side ” (as described carelessly above) are now very strongly with us.”

      D’ye think so, Dave McEwan Hill?

      If I thought that my country could only regain her freedom with the support of a bunch of, “Celtic Supporting nutters”, or for that matter a bunch of, “Rangers Supporting nutters”, (and note not because they support any particular football club), then I would be voting to allow Scotland to die as a country and as a kingdom.

      I’m going to be generous, Dave, and assume you are inadvertently confusing the perfectly reasonable followers of both the Catholic & Protestant Christian faiths with the two bitterly twisted minorities among both sets of supporters of both football and Christian faiths.

      The point being that not all Catholics support Celtic, not all Celtic supporters are bigots and likewise not all Rangers fans are Protestants and not all Rangers supporters are bigots.

      Like the Scottish legislation, which we are debating here – (designed specifically to root out both sets of minorities of nutters), the first, and most obvious, beneficiaries, from the rooting out of the nutters among them, will be the genuine non-nutters who support both football clubs.

      Celtic Football Club, Rangers Football Club, both sets of genuine football supporters and all religions, or sects of religions, Glasgow, Scotland and innocent bystanders will benefit from the eradication of Irish politically motivated sectarianism.

      The wonder is how such a minority of bigots, (both Green & blue), have managed to hold such a depressingly evil hold in Scotland over such a long period of Scottish History.

      The majorities of football supporters, the Christian faiths and Scotland all deserve to be free from the bigoted lunatic fringe that lurks within their ranks.

    42. Robert Peffers says:

      @Jamie says: 17 May, 2016 at 11:37 pm:

      “Was William Wallace a terroist? I personally do not think so”.

      Neither do I, Jamie, but he most certainly was captured, tried and horribly executed as one by the Westminster Establishment.

    43. Martin Richmond says:

      By far the worst catalysts toward violence and hatred are religion and tribal politics… and worst of all the combination of both around a single issue. You’ll need a time machine to eradicate these from Scotland or anywhere else they exist. Well intentioned and popular as this act clearly is, it’s a sticking plaster on a gaping wound that’s by no means unique to Glasgow or Scotland. It is, however the reason I and others I know left to raise our families elsewhere.

    44. Ken500 says:

      They is rivalry between some pupils of some school. Unless the Authorities they are enlightened and they put in place measures, to stop it. (ie a scud in the lug – joke). This has nothing to do with religion it is just an excuse. It could be any perceived difference. Or just going to a different school. ie it could be majority Protestant school against dominant Protestant. It could be boy’s school against girl’s school. It could be boy’s school against boy’s school. Religion could be just the excuse, where their no other excuse. The point is it is up to the Authorities to put in measures to stop it. In Scotland especially in the centre belt, the Authorities have never taken the necessary measures in place to cut it out. That is why it is so rampant.

      By not putting measures in place the Authorities have actively encouraged it. They have played one side against each other for political capital. Peceive political benefit. In most other parts of Scotland the authorities have taken action. With the support of the voters who are majority non religious. The majority in Scotland. Scotland is a secular country. The majority are non religious and that is increasing rapidly.

      They have banned Orange Marches completely. They have intergrated schools, most pupils go to intergrated or shared schools. The authorities have taken action. More could have been done in the Central Belt but there was no enough political will. That is why Unionist authorities in the Central Belt have lost support. May 2017.

      The SNP gov have tried to take action. The ‘Offensive Football’ Act. A bad Law but the only thing that has stopped them. That is why they are moaning. It was introduced by two (lapsed?) Catholic Minister’s to stop (Celtic) perceived Catholic supporters being intimidated by (Rangers) perceived Protestant supporters. It caught all offensive football supporters in the same net. Now they are all squealing. Instead of them thinking ‘maybe it would be better no singing or shouting offense’, they want the Law changed.

      Rangers Football Club will go into administration in 2019 when the HMRC come for the £Millions which have been tax evaded. Even corrupt, tax evading, Unionist politicians will not be able to bail them out. There are more revelations to come out. Some extremely wealthy individuals are taking advantage of the supporters of football clubs. No wonder the terraces are empty. The punters go off and do something else. The Opium of the people – Shopping, Football (sport), TV. The main leisure pursuits.

      The SNP have put more into education. Tried in difficult circumstance to keep class sizes down. Teachers should be given more training in additional needs. It will help all pupils. The SNP have put more help into areas of social deprivation. £100Million to mitigate the benefit cuts. There are no prescription charges for the ill. It was means testing student loans on household of average earnings, that was preventing students of household of average earnings getting a a full loan to go to University. Even those with the necessary qualifications. The main reason? why a % of students from less well off backgrounds were not going to University.

      Some of the problems stemmed from inner city neglect and poverty which manifests it’s self in expression of rivalry. The unity for them and which gave them power was as supporters at a football match/club People like people who are like themselves. A religion base gave them an identity, to identify with, when there was no other alternative. It can be a form of rage against the machine by some disaffected people whose life chances have been violated. Of it can just become a problem of social discourse where a large mass of people are gathered which can turn into a protest group.

      If UK Gov policy is not changed, there will be more chance that gathering of a large mass of people for whatever reason, will engage in civil disobedience and civil unrest. This was defined in the Thatcher era and is now rearing it’s head again in the rest of the UK. Despite or because of the Gov draconian measures. Austerity, sanctioning people and starving the vulnerable.

    45. T.roz says:

      I have been at park head for a few games against Rangers and there is religious hatred and a silly ‘class’ hatred. The song hello hello, probably always got the worst reaction. I was a student in Aberdeen and went to pittodirie quite a lot, when celtic visited the atmosphere was good. When rangers visited pittodirie, the atmosphere was vile, with no anti religious singing but the ‘class’ thing was there with ‘rule Britannia’ this riled the dons fans, saltiires would be whipped out and waved at the rangers fans and ‘flower of scotland’ would start up. (This football experience was 20 years ago)

      It’s a kind of sick grovelling to the crown which I found sparked similar reactions both in glasgow and Aberdeen. The problem being the Rule Britania mob as I like to call them, on the plus side I know loads of good strong YES rangers fans, let’s hope that group gets larger.

    46. Auld Snody says:

      @george wood.
      It is not the fault of faith schools as there are faith schools in other parts of the U.K. without these problems. It would seem the problems if with bigots and the people who need religious strife to bolster their already low, low self esteem.

    47. Bill says:

      I’m writing some anti-yoon songs for publication once the Act is repealed. So it’ll be legal to sing at Yes Rallies about being up to my knees in Yoon blood!

      Lyrical suggestions welcome.

    48. Famous15 says:

      @Auld Snody.

      Correct! Sectarianism like racism is not born of strength or confidence it is evidence of weakness and low self belief.

      That fanatic ,near to tears,screaming “Stick your Independence up your arse” infamously displayed the poverty of thought of the Orange Order. Bullies are not strong but are still vile.

    49. davidb says:

      Apart from the family history researchers, ask yourself what you know about your ancestors prior to your grandparents. Do you know where you come from?

      Do you realise that as Scots left for Canada and Australia into Scotland came people from all over Europe to find work here. Here in the mills and shipyards of the then second city of the empire? Here as Edinburgh professionals catering to the growing wealthy community.

      And now, decades, centuries later, we care so much about some of those migrants that we try to identify them and keep them somehow as “other”. As alien.

      Everyone in Scotland is an immigrant if you go back far enough. Be they of Flemish or Viking, or Norman, or Huguenot descent or if their ancestors were in a band of hunter gatherers when the ice melted. I do not care where your ancestors came from. I understand they all came from Tanzania once.

      This religio-racism is a divide and rule strategy used very successfully throughout the British Empire. It has no place in a modern society. I felt strongly about the race relations act – it was an assault on free speech. And I was uncomfortable about the OBAF legislation for similar reasons. But put yourself in the place of the person on the receiving end. You think its OK for someone to abuse you for being Scottish? Would you think it was OK for your relatives in Canada to be name called because their ancestors arrived there on the Hector?

      The law may be flawed. Maybe it can be improved. But this politically motivated attempt to make it an issue is 100% about separating groups of Scots. It is 100% about dividing and ruling. We are one Nation. We are all Scots. Racism is wrong. Discrimination is wrong. And be honest, you all know that to be true in your hearts.

      So can we raise our game. Can we decline to play “theirs”. What is it about us that we grumble about smoking or alcohol restrictions: We demand the right to be stupid and reckless in all things:Yet we know the intentions are good, and that in the end our government is actually doing the best thing for us?

      Aye Wha’s like us?

    50. Robert Peffers says:

      @Jamie says: 17 May, 2016 at 11:40 pm

      ” … The only Celtic songs I know of that are ever used to convict Celtic fans are songs that glorify the independence of Ireland and the struggle to gain it without mention of any religion.”

      That, Jamie, is a very transparent, cop-out. It is plain to all that Irish politics have always been equally composed of politics and religious opposition by both sides.

      If you know your Irish history you will know that Scottish sectarianism was deeply involved in the historic annexation of Ireland by first the Kingdom of England and then by the embryo United Kingdom.

      The, “Plantations”, in 16th and 17th-century Ireland were the confiscation of Irish land by the English crown. This involved the colonisation of Irish land with settlers from Great Britain, (England, Wales & Scotland). These followed small scale immigration to Ireland as far back as the 12th century. These were known in Ireland as, “The Old English”, or, “The Ascendancy”, and formed a distinct ethnicity in Ireland. There was also unofficial plantations by privately by landlords in Antrim and Down.

      The 16th-century plantations were achieved throughout Ireland by the confiscation of lands occupied by the Gaelic clans and the Hiberno-Norman dynasties,. Mainly in the provinces of Munster and Ulster.

      The English Crown granted these lands to colonists (known as “planters”) from England. This was begun by Henry VIII and continued under Mary I and Elizabeth I. It was then greatly accelerated under James I of England/VI of Scotland, Charles I and Oliver Cromwell when Irish land was granted to Scottish planters. This phrase refers to the, “implanting”, of foreign to Ireland immigrants , not to them being planters of crops.

      In the 16th century these tended to be based on small “exemplary” colonies. While later plantations were based on mass confiscations of land from Irish landowners and subsequent, “implantation”, of numerous settlers and labourers from England and Wales, and later, from Scotland.

      The later official plantations were established under the English Commonwealth and Cromwell’s Protectorate during the 1650s. Thousands of Parliamentarian soldiers were then settled in Ireland.

      Apart from the political plantations, significant immigration into Ireland continued well into the 18th century, from both Great Britain and from continental Europe.

      The faiths of the implanted immigrants was, Protestant while the Irish peoples were mainly Roman Catholics and thus the politics and religion have always been intertwined. In effect the Westminster Establishment have always used Christian Sectarianism to bend the people of Ireland, or indeed the entire British Isles, to do their dirty work for them.

    51. Ken500 says:

      The problem will not exist in 2019 when the tax man cometh. The are more revelations to come. Rangers will be out, completely, No if’s no but’s. No one has more power in Scotland them Her Majesty’s Gov. it’s all kind of ironical. The corrupt UK gov are going to put the corrupt UK Gov supporting Football club out of corrupt business. The corrupt management have taken their supporters and others for total suckers.They have sucked the muck out of the club. Football, sport have been the loser. No wonder the terraces are empty. Unsporting behaviour. Deceit and lies.

      Sex is fun and healthy but there is a time and a place for it. Distance does not make the heart beat stronger. Any comments will be made in the right places.

    52. Giving Goose says:

      IMHO

      God doesn’t exist. Religious belief is simply a symptom of an inability to grasp the complexity of the natural world.

      Equally, if you indulge in various behaviours that are simply reserved and are generated by the colour of a team strip, then that is pretty sad.

      When you drop down to the level of the subjects under discussion, then what you see demonstrated by certain sections of Scottish society equally demonstrates the multi layered aspects of the human character.

      Sometimes it easier to simply pigeon hole people on the basis of their behaviour in order to understand where you, the individual sit in relation to others.

      So, with my pigeon hole metaphor in hand, I’m going to pigeon hole the individuals that indulge in the various behaviours. No need to stretch out great lengths of prose, or historical fact and figures to justify it.

      There are pigeon holes available, labelled “Rational Individual” etc.

      Equally there is a pigeon hole labelled “Arse Holes”

      If you understand the concept of the pigeon holes, then you can reshape behaviours in order to occupy the pigeon hole of choice.

      Simples!

    53. Robert Peffers says:

      @Truth says: 18 May, 2016 at 1:48 am:

      ” … Maybe the whole thing isn’t religion after all and is merely distasteful behaviour relating to the independence of Ireland. One side concentrating on the sacrifices and struggles to obtain it, and the other resenting the loss.”

      See my post on the history of Ireland. Remember also that large areas of the USA are historically inhabited by the so called Scottish/Irish.

      The derogatory USA term, “Hillbilly”, stems from King Billy following immigrants from Ireland of Scottish descent who settled in the mountain areas of the United States.

      The suppression of religion by sectarianism is at the heart of much of the English speaking World’s history due to it causing much emigration when people sought freedom to follow their chosen religion.

      It has always been, and still is, a tool used by governments to bend the hoi polloi to the government’s will. Remember the Witch Finder General?

    54. Dr Jim says:

      If Muslim United were to have Forty or fifty thousand supporters in their ground singing and chanting and waving foreign Flags proclaiming death to the Brits or celebratory songs of victorious deeds over Scotland or England or maybe up to their knees in Christian blood or Freedom songs about their brothers illegally held in Guantanamo

      Would that be tolerated by government or the people would that be defended by those who would herald it as freedom of expression
      or do we think somebody might suggest we come up with some law to make that behaviour offensive

      Would the same little jumped up Arseholes want to bin that law to make a political statement of their own bigness and self importance in those circumstances

    55. AhuraMazda says:

      I like your post, Peffers, surely you can’t say “pish” to that.

      A lot of people here think our problem with “sectarianism” would be solved if we kept Irish problems out of our country and culture. It’s the other way around. The problem’s roots are in us meddling with their country and culture. That isn’t as historical a problem as you might think either.

    56. Old dearie says:

      O/t

      @Cearc
      Posted a reply on other thread but here too in case. Delighted to meet today at noon. Ceilidh Place coffee shop. Black and white jumper. Husband with yellow jumper.

    57. orri says:

      When your resident troll is trying to push the only one side line as hard perhaps it’d be wise to pause and think why that is. Billy Boys originated in the Fullerton gang in Brixton. The full lyrics make it clear at the end. Their rivals were the Tim Malloys, a catholic gang, hence Billys and Tims. That makes it slightly easier to prosecute based on a song originating in criminality with obvious violence in its lyrics.

      A Soldier’s Song is a lot more subtle mentioning the “race” of the enemy only once at the end. Shares a lot with “Men of Harlech” in at least one version which is why it dropped of the radar as far as a sporting anthem for Wales went. “Flower of Scotland” at least limits itself to a particular army as the enemy rather than a whole ethnicity. The running theme is there though.

      The Ulster Plantations were forced resettlements of hardline protestant scots and english troublemakers by James VI.

    58. Ken500 says:

      In Ireland a majority of Catholics and Protestants supported Home Rule. A majority of the people supported Home Rule. It was a mass Home Rule movement. Led by a Protestant landowner Charles Stewart Parnell. Catholics did not have equal rights under British rule. No right to own land ,carry a sword or own a horse – ie the same policy in Scotland An attempt by Westminster Gov to suppress Scotland and Ireland. To keep England Dominant. Ireland would have been Independent long ago. There is still the possibility of Ireland reuniting. Demographically.

      It was Westminster which discriminated against Catholics in Britain, but also it was the (unelected) British Gov who caused the problems. The Act of Union terms guaranteed a shared Protestant Monarch. Only a Protestant can be a Monarch in The UK. Scotland was guaranteed it’s own legal system, Church (education) system, and equal treatment for ever. That promise has not been met ever.

      It has precious little to do with Scotland. It was Westminster (no universal suffrage) policy which discriminated against Catholics in Iteland and Scotland as well. Westminster (the British State) discriminated against Ireland and Scotland. It had precious little to do with where people settled. It was a Protestant King who gave land for the plantations. The settlers were massacred, Then the settlers massacred the incumbent population. The Westminster establishment descriminated against Catholics. They also descriminsted against Ireland and Scotland. They still do.

      It is the UK Gov which has continued the campaign against Ireland & Scotland to this day.

      Cameron who doesn’t care. He said ‘the next time the Scottish Gov comes down to Westminster to ask permission for another Panda for Edinburgh Zoo from China’. The VOW. Hoping Scotland would go away. Not come back stronger.

      China – ‘Scotland the land of discovery and invention’

      China – ‘Britain is a land without influence and without Empire’.

      China – Osbourne’s new ex best fiend. Tory tax evading Queen Bee can’t keep quiet but insults the Chinese Premier. Osbourne (tax evader giving the Chinese £60Billion for a Nuclear Station by the sea. A total waste of time and public money. Taking 12? years. A total disgrace to line the pockets of his associates. HS2 is the same. A total white Elephant. A total waste of time and public money.

    59. October 1993, two IRA bombers entered Frizzell’s fish shop in Shankhill Road Belfast, with the intention of blowing up UDA activists reportedly meeting in a room above the shop.
      The intention was (as if it matters) to empty the shop of customers and activate a time bomb.
      The bomb went off prematurely, killing one of the bombers, a UDA activists, and unforgivably innocent shoppers.
      A reprisal attack took place in the Rising Sun Pub on Hallowe’en, when UDA gunmen mowed down innocent citizens; It is known as the ‘Trick or Treat’ atrocity, because one of the psychos muttered ‘trick or treat’ before letting rip.
      Psychopaths, evil men, the ISIS of their day.
      Yet in Scotland 2016, we are discussing repealing laws which prohibit these ‘football’ endomorphs glorifying this bestiality on the slopes of Ibrox and Parkhead?

      Kelly, Fraser, Massie, Tomkins, Johnstone, and , yes, Harvie, get a life.
      Is there nothing that you will not do to hold on to your little grubby pointless sinecures?

      Scotland is not Ulster.
      The cartoon is a terse reminder that selling copies of Dead Tree Scrolls, and BBC viewing figures are more important to the Unionist Better Together careerists than the health, wealth, wellbeing and safety of the citizens of Scotland.
      Perhaps the OO and the Hibernians can organise a joint Better Together march against this Act?
      Aye, that’ll be shining bright.

    60. galamcennalath says:

      It is always worth remembering that religious troubles, even open warfare, in Scotland and Ireland was a three way split – Anglicans, Presbyterians, and Roman Catholics.

      The 17thC in Scotland saw a century long struggle between Covenanter Presbyterians and Charles 1&2 who wanted to impose the Episcopalian Anglican style church on this country.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenanter

      In Ireland, Presbyterians in Ulstar (who had come from Scotland) were also persecuted by the Anglican Establishment. The Society of United Irishmen ….

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_United_Irishmen

      … and the 1798 Rebellion had radical Ulster Prebyterians at its core …

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Rebellion_of_1798

      My point is that recent Catholic Protestant troubles in the west of Scotland are only part of a much more complicated history. The tendency of the sides to simplify their history does no justice to the struggle of people like the Covenanters and United Irishmen.

    61. cearc says:

      Dr Jim,

      In a nutshell, no further comments needed.

    62. Breeks says:

      Google Jane Elliot’s experiment on YouTube, where she tells her classroom full of kids that blue eyes are better than brown eyes.

      It doesn’t matter whether it is eye colour, skin colour, ethnicity, football team, or religion. You sow the seeds of hatred and they take root alarmingly fast. It never does make sense, it doesn’t have to. It never has any logical foundation, but doesn’t require one. Hatred is a switch in your head that is easily turned on, but devilishly hard to switch off again because it feels such a natural condition.

      The hope for Scotland lies in those young kids still uncorrupted by sectarianism, and growing up wanting no part in the sectarian bullshit so relished by their fathers/brothers/peers, and breaking the chain so the hatred isn’t passed down to the next unsoiled generation.

      It is not about religion. Don’t kid yourself. It is a primal and malevolent, yet wholly artificial, distinction between “us” and “them”.

      In 21st century Scotland, sectarianism is nothing more than a chronic embarrassment and a refuge for self righteous bigots. That it exists at all is a dismal dereliction in our collective education.

      It isn’t the words in any particular hate song that matter, nor its history, nor its symbolism, it’s the venom in your heart that makes you want to sing them, and inflict your hatred onto somebody else for no better reason than to provoke them. Here’s a suggestion… Grow the fuck up eh?

      Never mind the Anti Social Behavior act, if shutting down every football club in the country was certain to eradicate sectarianism from Scotland, then I would do it in a heartbeat. Once sectarianism was certified dead, we could start our football afresh, clean and uncorrupted and safe for our kids to go and watch. It wouldn’t work of course. Sectarianism is a cancer which would just move into something else and ruin that.

    63. Rookiescot says:

      Would the cartoon still be humorous and pithy if the two guys were dressed in Celtic garb?

    64. Clydebuilt says:

      Would BBC logos on the track suit be a fitting touch……

      What about KAYE’s show, and all the papers ……. Sex scandal …..SCottish Nookie Party…… What a coincidence, same Female journalist in both stings……..

    65. Ruby says:

      It seems to me there are a lot of similarities between these hate filled sectarian football fan bigots and the hate filled opposition politicians at Holyrood.

    66. Dan Huil says:

      The britnat media, especially the bbc, would love to see sectarianism on the rise in Scotland. I believe, however, more and more people in Scotland are seeing the britnat media for what it is: sick.

    67. Robert Peffers says:

      @davidb says: 18 May, 2016 at 8:18 am:

      ” … Everyone in Scotland is an immigrant if you go back far enough.”

      Actually, davidb, you are quite wrong in that claim.
      Genetic testing throughout the entire British Isles shows that by far the greater numbers are descended from the same aboriginal Stone age Britons.

      We have no way of knowing if or who inhabited these islands before the Ice-Ages. The ice wiped out any signs and there was no written history pre-Roman Britain.

      Mesolithic Britain was claimed to have been inhabited by hunter-gatherers, constantly on the move. More recent excavation of a Northumbria dig reveals that our Stone Age ancestors were actually house builders.

      The Middle Stone age, (Mesolithic period), seemed remote and mysterious. About 10,000BC, was when the last Ice Age ended. After which came wild animals to graze and these were followed by people. We now know that Britain was part of the European landmass in the Mesolithic Age. It was joined to what is now France and Denmark. Those shallow fishing grounds in the North Sea known as The Dogger Bank were then a very large island. As the ice retreated northwards it was accompanied by a rise in sea-levels as the ice melted.,

      The people who first returned were not settled farmers but were hunters/gatherers and constantly on the move in a search for food. Thing is that idea is now rubbished for there are several very large long term dwelling sites to be found on these isles.

      A dig at Howick in Northumberland shows the stone age peoples did indeed have long term bases and a very significant discovery was thrown up when genetic research found a woman living a few miles from the Howick dig was a direct descendent of a stone age person whose remains were discovered at the dig.

      In fact the main population throughout Britain are descended from those stone-age settlers. Any great differences of the several British countries are mainly cultural for we mainly share the same genetic roots. The so called Anglo-Saxons of the south really only adopted the culture and language of their Anglo-Saxon masters but remain descendants of Stone age Britons.

      The so called Celtic Fringes are no more Celtic than the English are Anglo-Saxons for the Celtic settlers were mainly Holy-men and mainly celibate. The Scots, Irish and Welsh, just like their English counterparts, just adopted the Celts cultures and languages.

      As to the Romans, these too were a ruling elite who mainly did not interbreed with their slaves or underlings. In truth our taught history has been bunk and is now proven to be so by simple genetics testing.

      Not so our lords and Masters, though. The British Royals and aristocracy, some still sitting in thr HOL today, are descended from those elite rulers at least right back to the very start of our written history by the Romans.

      So there you go, Davidb. The mixed immigrants are mainly among the ruling classes and the rest of us are mainly descended from the original aboriginal stone-age Britons.

    68. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT but the Herald on line has surely plumbed the lowest of depths with the spurious drivel it has headlined today.

      I beg , yet again , that no-one goes to comment – treat them to their usual bunch of unionists .

    69. Andrew Brophy says:

      I love the Gavin Bryars reference in the headline.

      Very clever.

    70. Dr Jim says:

      A great day to be had in Yoondom today with the call Kaye program and all the participants trying to avoid screaming down the telephone line what they’ve really called in to say
      which is SNB Baad and we’re so happy about it

      It’s amazing the lengths these people are going to to sound as if they’re reasonable people (Honest we are)

      But once again it comes down to the so called newspapers “Alleging” stuff, because if they don’t allege other stuff then it’s purely and simply salacious sleaze and SNP Baad and unjustifiable to print it

      On my admittedly not great counting skills that now comes to thirty SNP MPs who have allegedly done stuff that to date none of which has resulted in any criminal charges to anybody

      By any stretch of anyones imagination that’s got to be a record for any political party to have over 50% of it’s representatives accused of wrongdoing without guilt being found in any of the cases

      So any sane person would then be forced to look at exactly what’s going on with a media that’s so obsessed with finding and reporting stuff that’s either irrelevant or flat out untrue practically all of the time about one particular political party

      I’m completely stumped as to why the media in the whole of the UK doesn’t like the SNP
      Will anybody be able to come up with the answer I wonder?

    71. carjamtic says:

      Dr Jim @ 8:57

      Spot on,the collusion by all involved is a new low,in Scottish politics.

      So desperate,so grasping,it defies any logic,any normal rationale……sure make the corrections,tweak what needs to be tweaked,job done.

      What they are ‘knowingly’ doing with this,(when I say ‘they’ I mean BBC/MSM/Tories of All Shades at Westminster and Holyrood,let there be no doubt),will come back to haunt them.

      Of course, they know all of this,but have nothing left to lose,not even the any last remnants of their own self respect…..they really are that blinded by hatred……hatred of themselves.

    72. Dan Huil says:

      @ Dorothy Devine 10:04am

      Spot on, Dorothy. Boycott all britnat media – print, TV and internet.

    73. galamcennalath says:

      Dan Huil says:

      “The britnat media … would love to see sectarianism on the rise … more people in Scotland are seeing the britnat media for what it is: sick.”

      Yes. I think it will ultimately be another case of BritNat, especially media, activities being counter productive.

      The tactic is to use fear, aggression, violence, when all it achieves is showing them to be the type of people who would use anything to achieve their goals.

      Anything – I could say the same of ‘lies’, ‘deceit’, ‘false promises’, ‘false accusations’, etc etc.

      Once people see through it, it’s BritNattery en masse which loses respect and credibility.

    74. Bill McLean says:

      Someone mentioned President John Kennedy earlier – I was at East End Park (as a Dunfermline supporter) the day after he was shot dead in Dallas. The Pars were playing Rangers and there was no crowd separation in those days. I think it was the legendary Jock Stein who asked over the PA system for a minute’s silence in respect of the President’s death. Within seconds the Rangers supporters started up with one of their pleasant ditties. I, as a foolish kid of 17, asked one of them why. He’s was only a “Kafflik” came the reply. I wondered for years how you change that sort of mindset. Not easy but at least our Scottish Government is trying – not turning a blind as the Government in London used to, and the law up here did!Unionism is the plague that caused all of this division in these island and the sooner we rid ourselves of it the sooner sectarianism and bigoted driven hatred will die out completely!

    75. Capella says:

      O/T this has gone viral – film of an Osprey catching a trout from a TV programme on the Highlands. Might make an exception and watch it!

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-36320841

    76. Ruby says:

      Dan Huil says:
      18 May, 2016 at 9:57 am

      The britnat media, especially the bbc, would love to see sectarianism on the rise in Scotland.

      Ruby replies

      They are particularly interested in encouraging sectarianism in politics.

      SNP bad
      Scotland bad
      Unionism good
      UK good.

      ‘Sectarianism is a form of bigotry, discrimination, or hatred arising from attaching relations of inferiority and superiority to differences between subdivisions within a group.’

    77. Truth says:

      @Bob Mack

      “… the Queen or King of the UK cannot be Catholic.”

      The monarch cannot be a Roman Catholic. They can be a Protestant Catholic (to give it its full name).

      A Roman Catholic as head of state means your head of state is beholden to another head of state – the Pope in the Vatican. It’s the last vestige of the holy Roman Empire.

      By the way, I’m fairly certain JFK was a Roman Catholic, so that blows your other claim out the water.

      Personally, I’d get rid of the monarchy for a whole host of reasons before their religion of choice.

    78. Haggishunter says:

      The unionist ‘movement’ is on a loser with the stereotypical thug, well known; they cant spell, they can’t debate without abuse, they hate everything except white protestants.

      I am a Republican, but not a Catholic, I couldn’t give a monkeys what religion anyone is, most people think like this

    79. Dr Jim says:

      I heard a Yoon woman this morning complaining bitterly about SNP MPs all being the same as the ones in London yet at the same time managing to say the SNP ones were worse

      Making their mind up in Yoonland seems to cause difficulty for the inhabitants of that world and they do seem to demonstrate a deep desire to keep telling us we’re all the same and no better than the rest of the UK, and in that they completely miss the point which is

      We know we’re no better, but we’d like to be

    80. Bob Mack says:

      @Truth,

      Re JFK. See my follow up.

    81. Haggishunter says:

      Robert Peffers;
      No, I dont agree with your views.
      Did you know that 1/3 of Scottish males are related to the siberians, and some of our closest relations are with the Sammi people, of Northern Finland / Sweden /Norway and Russia. They came thru the Dogger bank lands you mentioned.
      Highland Cattle are direct relations of the Yak, that came to Scotland with migrating people after the ice age.
      This is where the Picts come in, and the traces of the Picts cannot be found in England and Southern Ireland

      Davidb is correct, Scotland is a nation of immigrants, like any other country in the world

    82. Tinto Chiel says:

      Capella, the quotation you were looking for is at the end of the previous thread.

    83. Papadox says:

      The English Broadcasting Corporation is in the van of the anti Scotland propaganda. They are becoming more obvious as they follow and implement the instructions from their control room handlers in MI5 and their hangers on. They are intent on destroying the SNP at any cost and are slowly tightening the screws till they achieve their objective or get a reaction that will justify their behaviour.
      WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE ALLOWED TO GO QUIETLY I FEAR!
      Never thought they would sink so low, how stupid am I, you only nead to look a the history books for the mother of parliaments past form.

    84. Ruby says:

      The only thing missing from the cartoon is a couple of ‘Ruth Davidson Party’ rosettes.

    85. Haggishunter says:

      Yoons cherry picking what group can be legally hated. Racism and Homophobia don’t really divide Scotland the way Sectarianism has done

    86. Dr Jim says:

      Before I was born my Mum came to Scotland married to my Edinburgh Dad and when asked at that time, as were all folk by their neighbours what religion she was, she proudly stated

      Church of England, whereupon folk would say but that’s Anglican isn’t it, that’s almost Catholic, my Mum would then retort, but that’s what the queen is, and the answer once again was, Aye, almost catholic

      From that time my Mum decided she was a Baptist and nobody knew how to answer that one Coz that’s almost Proddy
      There were more Proddies in my street than Kafflicks

      My Mum never went to church and nor did most of the people doing the asking

      But many of them went to football, Proddies walked down the right side of the street and Kafflicks on the left

      My Dad had little to no interest in football except to moan about the Scotland team of the day, win or lose
      I remember my Dad laughing and mocking the rubbish in newspapers from over 60 years ago and here I am doing the same all these years later and wanting what he wanted then

      Scotland Free of the dominance, lies, manipulation and bad governance of the south

      Doing the best I can Dad

    87. Truth says:

      @Bob Mack

      Sorry I missed your follow up.

      Perhaps the council of bishops were concerned with the other issue in my post, ie being beholden to the Pope?

    88. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ken500 says: 18 May, 2016 at 9:16 am:

      “It was a Protestant King who gave land for the plantations.”

      Whoa! There! Ken500.

      The Irish Plantations covered hundreds of years and began long before King James. If you really want to learn Irish History you might consider this:-

      http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?groupid=2913&HistoryID=ac70&gtrack=pthc

      It lays things out in a logical and easier to follow and understandable manner.

      If memory serves the first mainland British attempts to settle in Ireland began in 1494, by Welsh based Norman Knights. To my mind the Establishment are still attempting to make all Ireland a Kingdom of England annex.

    89. AhuraMazda says:

      orri, we can say with certainty now that this site’s owners and managers know I am here and guess what… I am still here.

      That means I am not deemed to be a troll and it also means that you are the one who is sailing close to the wind in terms of etiquette — the rules of the site are very clear on calling people trolls, go read them.

      That’s a small victory for diversity of thought and liberty and a huge defeat for you and your gang.

    90. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Chris Cairns You have me confuddled is that auld rangers fans or new-co fans. Great addition for midweeks laughs.

    91. Ruby says:

      https://archive.is/UwciW

      Breast cancer is bad enough – imagine enduring it in Gaza
      Philippa Whitford

    92. Ruby says:

      I suppose if the site owner does deem you as being a troll you can always re-register with a different user name.

    93. ronnie anderson says:

      Poster 10.55am ( orri, we can say with certainty now that this site’s owners and managers know I am here and guess what… I am still here.) I would,nt crow about it Troll,the Rev is tolerant to a point, you have pasted that point with the many posters on this site.

    94. Petra says:

      @ George Wood says at 1:32 am …. ”In my experience, faith schools either cause problems that weren’t there in the first place or exacerbate problems that already exist. We would be far better taking religion out of schools altogether.”

      Totally agree George. Religious bigotry usually begins on your ‘mammy’s knee’ but if all children went to the same school over a period of a few years working and playing together their mindset would change to some extent. It would probably take a generation or two to wipe the ingrained bigotry out but we have to start somewhere and it should be now.

      Additionally Scotland is no longer predominantly Catholic and Protestant it’s becoming more and more multi-cultural – multi-faith. So where does it all end? How many faiths will we have to cater for in Scotland over time? How many more divisions will we be creating by continuing with ‘faith’ schools – and no doubt storing up even more trouble for the future?

      If the parents of children are ‘big’ on their particular faith let them teach it at home, in their particular ‘churches’ or send them to classes …. somewhere …. outwith normal school hours.

    95. I am heartened by some of the posts here. There has been a general change of view in Scotland in more recent years and an understanding that the the root of sectarianism in our society was in fact anti Irishism. The anti Catholicism was almost incidental.
      There was already strong anti Catholic sentiment, a lot of it with political baggage, in Scotland before the Irish arrived.

      Between 1850 and 1900 around 400,000 poor Irish people made their ways to Glasgow and surrounding areas. The same will have made their way to the Liverpool area. Many more set out to America.

      There was lots of work in the vast industrial revolution that Scotland experienced in those days. The real problem came in the depression.We can see the same sort of strains today in parts of England where a large immigrant population gets lots of blame for the troubles caused by a contracting economy in which they are prepared to work.

      Sectarian sentiment in Scotland until fairly recent times was sadly entirely respectable. My father’s generation kept their heads down. Sectarianism becomes a problem when the next generation comes along and says “Fuck this, We’ve had enough of this” and won’t put up with it any more. You then get defensive aggression if that is not a contradiction. We’ve been through much of that now. We have a generation of people of historically recent Irish descent in Scotland who now are ScotsIrish or just Scottish in identification. They insist on being Scots. Equal Scots. And most of them will march with us to independence.
      It’s some on the other side that we have to work on.

    96. AhuraMazda says:

      Good morning, Ruby.

      Still going around the Internet stirring up apathy, I see.

      Did I see something in the site rules about changing names? I don’t think I did, can you point to that for us?

      Is a troll the same thing as someone who changes their username? Maybe people change their usernames for understandable reasons — when they are under sustained mind-numbingly boring attacks from a clique of bullies, for example.

      ronnie anderson, good morning to you too.

      It’s unfortunate that you feel angered by my presence. Yet again you call me a troll and that, as I said, is something I think you should reconsider.

      It isn’t good for the flow of debate to bog Wings down with these baseless accusations and I wish you would stop it and simply ignore me, as the rules on etiquette suggest you should.

    97. Petra

      I tend to agree with you. Religion is the province of the church and the home – but this issue is much more complicated than that.

      The “faith schools” were provided as a protection from a nasty division that already existed. They are not and never have been the cause of the division. There is however a perfectly sensible argument that doing away with them may help to heal that division. That can only happen peacefully however when the community that supports the faith schools feel confident of their position in our Scotland.
      That thankfully is coming.
      I actually don’t think this will be an issue at all a few decades from now.

    98. Can we get to the position where anybody that disagrees with us on some points is not accused of being a troll?
      I am happy to debate things. It’s a conversion exercise we are on.
      In my judgement a troll is an agent who pretends to strongly agree with us while sowing seeds of confusion and introducing biased facts and figures.

    99. Andrew McLean says:

      AhuraMazda says:
      Ok you may or may not be a troll, but you most certainly are a patronising arse-hole.

    100. Robert Peffers says:

      @Rookiescot says: 18 May, 2016 at 9:35 am:

      “Would the cartoon still be humorous and pithy if the two guys were dressed in Celtic garb?”

      Well! RookieScot, the answer is YES & No. What’s more you can stop playing the victim’s card – it won’t work.

      Yes it would be every bit as humorous but NO it would not be nearly so pithy. The reason being that while the Celtic supporting lot of sectarian scum who also indulge in such obnoxious behavious and are every bit as brain dead as the as the idiotic and brain dead Rangers supporting lot they are not unionists.

      The fact is that this forum is a pro-Scottish supporting independence forum and as such is not either anti-football, anti-Rangers Football club nor anti-Celtic Football Club, What is more it is not anti-Rangers & Celtic supporters.

      The obvious target is, to any non-bigoted, non-biased reader, the significant minority of bigoted, sectarian thugs who propagate hate and discrimination from football grounds throughout Scotland. These thus causes fear and alarm among all decent Celtic, Rangers and every other team’s supporters throughout Scotland.

      It also affects any innocent bystanders that happen to be in their vicinity.

      Which vicinity includes trains, busses, and the streets and by-ways of Scotland.

      Pity you lacked the simple common sense to know the actual significance and target of the Chris Cairn’s cartoon and imagined it was aimed at all the decent Rangers and Celtic supporters whose only fault is not making a good enough stance against the thugs that disgrace their supporters clubs.

      It just happens the Rangers club are part and parcel of the Loyal Orange Order and espouse the Union flag, English Royalty and wear the same red, white an blue colours. None of which have the slightest thing to do with Scottish football.

    101. DerekM says:

      Oooft they are just going to love you over that one Chris lol

    102. Fred says:

      When Fred was at the school he had an RI teacher who occasionally waved his arm vaguely & told the class that we were acting like “that other lot!” a veiled reference to RC kids whose school was so far away I never discovered exactly where it was? He had been in the war & had a twitch so mebbes we should make allowances! Anyhow, the Tims had the best songs & truth be told, the best singers.

      This business is a not-very-cunning Kellyesque ploy to distract the hard of thinking from Slabs own shortcomings, their disastrous election results & PFI craws coming home to roost big time.

    103. Jamie says:

      I guess the problem is Petra, your belief that your opinion is superior to those who wish to send their kids to faith schools and as such your belief that you can force other people to do as you say, regardless of how they feel.

    104. Jamie says:

      AhuraMazda – I would just ignore the person, they are also fishing/trolling you by calling you a troll, the more you respond the more they will do it. Don’t bite.

    105. Chic McG says:

      Funny, but in the sake of balance I offer the image of a couple of Celtic fans singing:

      “Oh we’re all off to dub them with the Greens with the Greens…”

      🙂

    106. ronnie anderson says:

      How many profiles can one person have when Trolling I think weve expearinced this in the past, Multiple as they TROLL many sites with they,re various screen names, why so ?.

    107. Petra says:

      @ Jamie says at 12:12 pm …. ”I guess the problem is Petra, your belief that your opinion is superior to those who wish to send their kids to faith schools and as such your belief that you can force other people to do as you say, regardless of how they feel.”

      I don’t think for one minute that my opinion is ‘superior’ to anyone else’s at all. It’s my opinion just as you seem to have yours and make it known on here with your tag team mate. I’m just saying that schools should be about education (3 R’s plus) and not about God, Jesus, Allah, Shiva, Jehovah etc etc.

      A study of history, and current affairs, informs us that a major cause of most (but not all) wars and conflicts is religion. It creates division between people who otherwise have little differences and justifies hatred, mayhem and murder. Why perpetuate this state of affairs in our schools is all I’m saying.

    108. Rookiescot says:

      Robert Peffers says: ……..

      Had the cartoon depicted a Rangers supporter talking to a Celtic supporter then your argument about it being aimed at the extremist sections of both clubs would be valid. It would have made a far better point in my opinion.

      However it does not.

      It is extremist views like your comment about “It just happens the Rangers club are part and parcel of the Loyal Orange Order and espouse the Union flag, English Royalty and wear the same red, white an blue colours. None of which have the slightest thing to do with Scottish football.” says a lot about your own sectarianism.

      As a Rangers supporter this kind of comment makes my job of convincing fellow supporters to view independence in a positive light far harder.

      Perhaps you and others on this site could take this on board.

    109. Jamie says:

      Petra, the difference is my view does not propose banning particular schools, your does. My personal belief is live and let live, but there are elements in society, becoming increasingly influential that wish to ban, outlaw or introduce ever more authoritarian measures in a society that is already seeing its freedoms and privacy erroded at an astonishing rate. Basically I would like the right to send my kids to a catholic school and I do not appreciate anyone telling me I should not be allowed to.

      Rookiescot – “As a Rangers supporter this kind of comment makes my job of convincing fellow supporters to view independence in a positive light far harder” – pissing in the wind comes to mind here.

    110. orri says:

      Think my point was made when I mentioned focussing on only one side of the equation as being a tactic used by a troll.

      There a bigots on both sides. There may also be idealists. There are also those who see our independence as only being a way to further their own ambitions for a united Ireland rather than as for the good of Scotland. We don’t need any credence to accusations that this website is actually pro IRA or any such shite. Corbyn is being dragged over the coals with similar accusations at the moment.

    111. AhuraMazda says:

      I can see the usual pattern develop here, with most of you arguing that sectarian bigotry is a two sided problem, both sides to blame, and blah, blah, blah. I sincerely wish it was true.

      Rookiescot, a Rangers supporter (whatever that actually means these days), wants us to shut it in order to make his job of “convincing fellow supporters to view independence in a positive light”.

      Meanwhile, Orri is concerned that we might give credence to the accusations (which nobody has ever heard, btw) that this website is “pro IRA”.

      Reminds me of something Churchill said about the truth being so fragile it needs a bodyguard of lies to protect it…

      You’re all insane.

    112. Petra says:

      @ AhuraMazda says at 3:13 pm …. ”Reminds me of something Churchill said about the truth being so fragile it needs a bodyguard of lies to protect it … You’re all insane.”

      It reminds me of something else that the great British Imperialist had to say. Agree with it or not:

      “How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property – either as a child, a wife, or a concubine – must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the faith: all know how to die but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.”

    113. orri says:

      AhuraMazda says:
      18 May, 2016 at 3:13 pm
      I can see the usual pattern develop here, with most of you arguing that sectarian bigotry is a two sided problem, both sides to blame, and blah, blah, blah. I sincerely wish it was true.

      Bullshit.

      if 84% of those convicted are from one side where do the other 16% come from.

      You know it’s true. Your last sentence is an attempt to deny it. It might be a 5:1 ratio in convictions. Doesn’t mean there’s only one side involved.

    114. AhuraMazda says:

      Petra, Churchill said a lot worse than that. You should look into what he said about using chemical weapons on Syrians etc.

      Agree with it or not? LOL. I’m not so vain to assume my views on Churchill matter to anyone likely to read them on here.

      I have business interests and friends in the Levant though; I guess that makes me biased or something. We all agree that Britain should keep its nose out, and that most of the problems in the region can be directly attributed to British meddling.

    115. AhuraMazda says:

      orri, I already discussed the 16%. It turns out that 16% isn’t all Celtic fans as you would wish. There are fans from other teams in there.

      It’s not often I quote myself but here is what I said on the subject earlier (I can’t be bothered typing and genuinely find this subject incredibly straight-forward, nauseating, and boring);

      “You assume that the 16% is Celtic fans attacking Rangers fans. I can’t remember the exact numbers but it isn’t as many as 16%, some other teams’ fans played a part too.

      Here’s a very odd and difficult to comprehend thing that happens just about everywhere where you have one larger group victimising a minority. The victimised group tend to fight back, defend themselves, and even on occasion instigate attacks against those who persecute them. Goodness gracious me.

      It’s so hard to explain, isn’t it? I mean, here we have a clear situation where a particular religious group is being attacked and persecuted, as they have been for years, and the bastards have the nerve to react in an entirely predictable way.

      It would be a lot easier for everybody if they turned the other cheek and lay down and died like well-behaved victims should.”

    116. Out Of Affric says:

      Good here. I’ve just joined.

      I come from a parallel universe – over there, the Cathars are Third Lanark supporters.

    117. James Cormack says:

      The idea that all Rangers fans are unionist, indy-hating bigoted individuals is simply wrong. I know many who voted both SNP and Yes.
      I just think that this long and drawn out argument about bigotry and sectarianism has run its course and the modern world is full of much more serious questions.
      For example, Sharia Law and the penalty of death for those who choose apostasy: why does no-one debate that? It affects millions of people yet the mainstream PC media and the social media seem to be reluctant in case they offend anyone. Cowards!

    118. Joannie says:

      I disagree, sectarianism is still a serious problem in some places. Just because other problems also exist in the world that doesn’t mean sectarianism should be ignored.

    119. Clydebuilt says:

      To me a TROLL is a poster who attempts to Make themselves and their posts the topic of debate.

    120. Jamie says:

      James Cormack – I guess the reason why Sharia law is not discussed in the UK is because Sharia Law is not applied in the UK and in fact is not fully applied in most Muslim countries either.

      Another reason might be that the UK has stuck it’s nose into enough countries and left a hell of a mess behind afterwards.

      Countries may naturally grow out of such things if they were allowed to progress in their own way without constant western criticism and bombing back into the stone age. How can a country progress when it’s infrastructure is constantly destroyed?

    121. Jamie says:

      Clydebuilt – you mean like your post? Your daft if you think people can’t see right through that lame post.

    122. Thepnr says:

      @Jamie

      Clydebuilt has been posting on Wings for a long time and I have never saw that he/she has tried to draw attention to themselves. Unlike you Jamie.

    123. Bill says:

      That’s why Lord Yoon is a Loyalist

      In The Style Of Frank Sinatra
      by Bomber Bill

      “Have you met Lord Yoon?”
      Someone said as we shook hands.
      He was just Lord Yoon to me.

      Then I said, “Lord Yoon,
      You’re a gentleman who understands,
      I’m a man who must be Free.”

      “‘You better Vote SNP, you better not vote Leave,
      You better not Vote Tory, I’m telling you why,
      Nicola is comin’ to town!
      Nicola is comin’ to town!
      Nicola is comin’, comin’ to town.”

      I practiced every day,
      To find some clever lines to say,
      To make the meaning come through…

      And then I went and spoilt it all, by saying something stupid like:
      “You’re up to your knees in Fenian blood.”

      I can see it in his eyes, that he despises SNP,
      Like the day before.

      He loves The Queen,
      He hates Scotland,
      He loves Britain.

      That’s why Lord Yoon,
      That’s why Lord Yoon,
      That’s why Lord Yoon is a Loyalist.

      You’re up to your knees in Fenian blood.
      You’re up…

    124. Petra says:

      @ Jamie at 8:03pm …. ”Sharia Law is not applied in the UK.”

      Search online for Sharia Law UK. You’ll find that there are at least 30 Sharia Law Councils in the UK.

    125. George Wood says:

      “AhuraMazda says:
      18 May, 2016 at 2:21 am
      George Wood: “When I was at primary school, pupils used to go down the road to the catholic school to fight with them… In my experience, faith schools either cause problems that weren’t there in the first place or exacerbate problems that already exist. We would be far better taking religion out of schools altogether.”

      This is very typical. With one breath you talk about pupils from your school going to great lengths to visit a catholic school and attack the pupils, in the next you say we need to close catholic schools down.

      Stand back and look at what you are saying for what it is. It sounds to me like the problem of catholic schools is that because of them you need to walk to get your hands on the catholics; I suppose it would be easier for you if they shared the same playground so that you could attack them there.”

      No, you missed the point. The problem occurred because of the existence of the Faith school. If the catholic pupils had been at our school instead of a separate Faith school then they would have just been pupils like the rest of us.

      At my secondary school, there was no Faith school nearby and we didn’t have problems with religion.

    126. Jamie says:

      Thepnr- i am just outspoken if you or anyone else have a problem with that, hardlines.

      Petra- so a small number of places take some recommendations on sharia law it is not the same as the uk applying sharia law or what are you saying, I should be terrified of the Muslim (as that was the point of the poster)? Nah, no Muslim ever caused me any harm. Last I looked, other than the CIA trained and funded ISIS a sick group (and they did not invade the west) no Muslim country has invaded a western one in the last two decades. Shame the same can not be said of the UK.

    127. davidb says:

      @ Robert Peffers.

      I often read your historical pieces with interest. However what you have stated does not disprove my original comment. If anything it reinforces my point.

      There is no evidence of human habitation in Scotland prior to around 12,000 BC. There is no genetic evidence from that find either – only flint artefacts. Ergo, since the bit we reside in was under several miles of ice sheet immediately prior to then, it is highly likely that those artefacts were indeed left by “migrants”.

      Since it is generally accepted that modern humans – H. Sapiens – arose most likely in the rift valley, my original comment that we are all Tanzanians may have some merit.

      You may find this link interesting

      http://www.hhmi.org/news/genetic-history-ice-age-europe

      And that brings us back to what this whole article is about. The Irish immigrant population being identified by adherance to a particular faith. That Irish population will, I have absolutely no doubt, have a very similar if not identical genetic profile as the “native” Scots. We are likely to share the same aboriginal ancestors. But are we all Spaniards or Greeks? And indeed what were all those Vikings, Flemmings, Huguenots, Lithuanians, Italians, etc etc etc. Greeks or Spaniards?

      We are all immigrants here.

    128. Andrew McLean says:

      I remember the Scots were Irish who displaced the indigenous tribes after a battle in Fife, later Scots planted Northern Ireland, in America they call themselves Scots Irish! Anyhow I don’t care what you think you’re genetics say, as long as you want the best for Scotland and all our people that’s just dandy.

    129. Thepnr says:

      @Jamie

      “Thepnr- i am just outspoken if you or anyone else have a problem with that, hardlines.”

      LOL. Of course I don’t have a problem with being outspoken, tend to be a bit abrupt in drawing attention to myself because of this.

      Just as you have done while accusing other innocent posters of drawing attention to themselves, something that you are guilty of, not them.

    130. Joannie says:

      @George Wood
      “No, you missed the point. The problem occurred because of the existence of the Faith school. If the catholic pupils had been at our school instead of a separate Faith school then they would have just been pupils like the rest of us.

      At my secondary school, there was no Faith school nearby and we didn’t have problems with religion. ”

      The problem wasn’t the faith school at all, it was your bigotry against them. There are Catholic schools all over England and Wales too, children from other schools don’t go round attacking Catholic children, so its clearly not the faith schools that are causing such sectarianism.

    131. AnuraMazda says:

      Jamie: “no Muslim country has invaded a western one in the last two decades.”

      Hard to think of an example in the last 100 years. The only one I can think of is Indonesia attacking East Timor… Of course, we supported and armed indonesia in that attack.

      Hmmmmmmm.

    132. Fred says:

      How about Turkey’s invasion of Cyprus & Franco’s use of North African troops in the Spanish Civil War?

      Europe doesn’t have much of an interface with Muslim countries which is why we go to them.

    133. AhuraMazda says:

      The Turks were of the view that Cyprus was theirs though… More of an attempt to take back what they thought was theirs than an attack on a Christian country per se. And I don’t know the breakdown but about half the country regarded themselves as Turks.

      Hard to see how Franco fighting his own people with North African help amounts to a Muslim country invading a Christian country.

      Anyway, there must be an example somewhere, otherwise these Muslim countries look like the most peaceful countries in all history and we can’t have that eh…

    134. Fred says:

      Turkish Cypriots were a small minority, the resulting land-grab was nowhere near in proportion to their numbers. If the Turks were to have what they thought was theirs half the Balkans would go. What was Lord Byron fighting for. I won’t mention the genocide of the Armenians or the massacre of the Greeks by the same Turks.

    135. Mick DIAMOND says:

      Bill mclean 10.19am. Spot on bill. When we get rid of unionism, we’ll get rid of sectarianism.

    136. Andy MacNicol says:

      When I was at school, a long time ago, I had a woodwork teacher who was known to be a bit of a bigot. One day, a fellow pupil made a mess of a piece of wood and was told to “do it the Protestant way”. I commented that that was probably how he had got into that mess in the first place. After that, I never passed another test and was always in trouble for one thing or another. I gave up woodwork.



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