Wings Over Scotland

Thanks Rev, you give me my point and it’s always useful to back up a point with hard facts.

I said 90% as a guess.

So by your measure, 84% of what we call sectarian attacks are in one direction. That’s essentially what I am saying, so why call it a sectarian problem? It’s really a Rangers problem.

Ergo, we don’t have a two sided sectarian problem. We have an anti-Catholic problem. Why not call it that?

Did anybody think to ask the catholics if they wanted their faith schools closed down? I went to a non-faith school,

um, i went to a catholic primary and was brought up a catholic

i would withdraw state funding tomorrow for all religious activities in these schools

sorted

Great cartoon as ever..

I went out with a catholic girl when i was about 16, she hated religion and i just didnt see the point of it.

Her parents were pretty keen practicing catholics however. After a time i met them, and within minutes i was asked if i was a catholic.
Of course, being me, i was as brutally blunt as i am now and stated that i didnt see the point of religion in ANY form, personally, but respected the rights of others to believe what they wanted.

Her parents went mental !!

Apparently, it would have been at least a wee bit acceptable if i was a protestant, as at least i would be a Christian !

I was ‘requested’ to leave after i responded that they were not exactly taking a very Christian attitude towards me, and they had only asked a single question of me.

I never dated anyone with an overly eager religious viewpoint again, it seemed not to be worth the bloody hassle.

As a Falkirk fan, one week i was a “fenian bastard”, the next, an “orange hun cunt”.

They were both wrong, i have supported Falkirk all my life, i was a masochist !!

@AhuraMazda

I really don’t think it’s an anti catholic problem as you suggest.

They see themselves as Brits and they hate us Scots as much as they hate the Irish. I don’t think Catholicism actually comes into it.

They refer to Catholics as a proxy for Irish.

For the 16% the other way, which by your reckoning isn’t a problem, are they anti Protestant? Surely they can’t be anti British? Maybe that’s it!

Maybe the whole thing isn’t religion after all and is merely distasteful behaviour relating to the independence of Ireland. One side concentrating on the sacrifices and struggles to obtain it, and the other resenting the loss.

One things certain in my book, both “sides” most certainly do have a problem.

All schools use their admission policies to cream off middle class pupils because all schools are competing to be the best so that is an invalid statement by the critics.

George Wood: “When I was at primary school, pupils used to go down the road to the catholic school to fight with them… In my experience, faith schools either cause problems that weren’t there in the first place or exacerbate problems that already exist. We would be far better taking religion out of schools altogether.”

This is very typical. With one breath you talk about pupils from your school going to great lengths to visit a catholic school and attack the pupils, in the next you say we need to close catholic schools down.

Stand back and look at what you are saying for what it is. It sounds to me like the problem of catholic schools is that because of them you need to walk to get your hands on the catholics; I suppose it would be easier for you if they shared the same playground so that you could attack them there.

Truth: “For the 16% the other way, which by your reckoning isn’t a problem, are they anti Protestant? Surely they can’t be anti British? Maybe that’s it!”

You assume that the 16% is Celtic fans attacking Rangers fans. I can’t remember the exact numbers but it isn’t as many as 16%, some other teams’ fans played a part too.

Here’s a very odd and difficult to comprehend thing that happens just about everywhere where you have one larger group victimising a minority. The victimised group tend to fight back, defend themselves, and even on occasion instigate attacks against those who persecute them. Goodness gracious me.

It’s so hard to explain, isn’t it? I mean, here we have a clear situation where a particular religious group are being attacked and persecuted, as they have been for years, and the bastards have the nerve to react in an entirely predictable way.

It would be a lot easier for everybody if they turned the other cheek and lay down and died like well-behaved victims should.

Incidentally, I agree if we were to be more specific that the attacks seem to target Irish-Catholic immigrants and their descendants rather than just catholics. I don’t see where that gets us but yes, you are right on the score.

“they hate us Scots as much as they hate the Irish” — They seem to, I agree. But at least they recognise you as Scots. The slogan WATP translates to something like “this is our country and you are an immigrant.”

The history of this stuff shouldn’t be so neglected in these discussions either. I don’t see how you can possibly look at the present here in isolation of the past, as bad as the present is.

It was only 100 or so years ago that Irish people were being described and depicted as ape-like in journals and newspapers in Britain. That’s all on the record, along with the SPL (not the Scottish Premier League, btw) and the role of the Church of Scotland, Orange Order, and the rest.

The whole subject fills me with nausea and boredom, btw.

Religion has played a part in many acts of persecution on these islands. We have had people maimed ,burned,or brutally tortured for either being Catholic or protestant, depending on which monarchy was in power.

We have actually exported this bigotry all over the world. A prime example is that the American President cannot be a Catholic,as the Queen or King of the UK cannot be Catholic.

Religious leaders of all denominations have been backing these acts for centuries

Humankind has inevitably morphed religion into something that started with noble intentions into something which empowers even the most heinous acts with spiritual permission from their chosen God. Sad.

It took a second for it to click why it was knees and not neck.

So many people are looking for logic behind who hates who; it is mostly Catholics or whatever. As any rational person knows, there isn’t logic behind it. It is simply ingrained bigotry handed down over generations. Someone I work with is very much into the Orange Walk which is very bizarre as he is actually a very sensible guy. His whole family do it; dad, mum, sisters. It is a big event in their year. I asked him what the purpose is. Why do they do it, what is the aim, what do they want to accomplish. He couldn’t answer, got embarrassed then angry. (I wasn’t being argumentative, I kick with both feet) I was truly interested.

Rev, I love your comments to people. Your diplomat of the year award is on its way.

@Jamie says: 17 May, 2016 at 11:37 pm:

“Was William Wallace a terroist? I personally do not think so”.

Neither do I, Jamie, but he most certainly was captured, tried and horribly executed as one by the Westminster Establishment.

They is rivalry between some pupils of some school. Unless the Authorities they are enlightened and they put in place measures, to stop it. (ie a scud in the lug – joke). This has nothing to do with religion it is just an excuse. It could be any perceived difference. Or just going to a different school. ie it could be majority Protestant school against dominant Protestant. It could be boy’s school against girl’s school. It could be boy’s school against boy’s school. Religion could be just the excuse, where their no other excuse. The point is it is up to the Authorities to put in measures to stop it. In Scotland especially in the centre belt, the Authorities have never taken the necessary measures in place to cut it out. That is why it is so rampant.

By not putting measures in place the Authorities have actively encouraged it. They have played one side against each other for political capital. Peceive political benefit. In most other parts of Scotland the authorities have taken action. With the support of the voters who are majority non religious. The majority in Scotland. Scotland is a secular country. The majority are non religious and that is increasing rapidly.

They have banned Orange Marches completely. They have intergrated schools, most pupils go to intergrated or shared schools. The authorities have taken action. More could have been done in the Central Belt but there was no enough political will. That is why Unionist authorities in the Central Belt have lost support. May 2017.

The SNP gov have tried to take action. The ‘Offensive Football’ Act. A bad Law but the only thing that has stopped them. That is why they are moaning. It was introduced by two (lapsed?) Catholic Minister’s to stop (Celtic) perceived Catholic supporters being intimidated by (Rangers) perceived Protestant supporters. It caught all offensive football supporters in the same net. Now they are all squealing. Instead of them thinking ‘maybe it would be better no singing or shouting offense’, they want the Law changed.

Rangers Football Club will go into administration in 2019 when the HMRC come for the £Millions which have been tax evaded. Even corrupt, tax evading, Unionist politicians will not be able to bail them out. There are more revelations to come out. Some extremely wealthy individuals are taking advantage of the supporters of football clubs. No wonder the terraces are empty. The punters go off and do something else. The Opium of the people – Shopping, Football (sport), TV. The main leisure pursuits.

The SNP have put more into education. Tried in difficult circumstance to keep class sizes down. Teachers should be given more training in additional needs. It will help all pupils. The SNP have put more help into areas of social deprivation. £100Million to mitigate the benefit cuts. There are no prescription charges for the ill. It was means testing student loans on household of average earnings, that was preventing students of household of average earnings getting a a full loan to go to University. Even those with the necessary qualifications. The main reason? why a % of students from less well off backgrounds were not going to University.

Some of the problems stemmed from inner city neglect and poverty which manifests it’s self in expression of rivalry. The unity for them and which gave them power was as supporters at a football match/club People like people who are like themselves. A religion base gave them an identity, to identify with, when there was no other alternative. It can be a form of rage against the machine by some disaffected people whose life chances have been violated. Of it can just become a problem of social discourse where a large mass of people are gathered which can turn into a protest group.

If UK Gov policy is not changed, there will be more chance that gathering of a large mass of people for whatever reason, will engage in civil disobedience and civil unrest. This was defined in the Thatcher era and is now rearing it’s head again in the rest of the UK. Despite or because of the Gov draconian measures. Austerity, sanctioning people and starving the vulnerable.

@george wood.
It is not the fault of faith schools as there are faith schools in other parts of the U.K. without these problems. It would seem the problems if with bigots and the people who need religious strife to bolster their already low, low self esteem.

@Auld Snody.

Correct! Sectarianism like racism is not born of strength or confidence it is evidence of weakness and low self belief.

That fanatic ,near to tears,screaming “Stick your Independence up your arse” infamously displayed the poverty of thought of the Orange Order. Bullies are not strong but are still vile.

@Jamie says: 17 May, 2016 at 11:40 pm

” … The only Celtic songs I know of that are ever used to convict Celtic fans are songs that glorify the independence of Ireland and the struggle to gain it without mention of any religion.”

That, Jamie, is a very transparent, cop-out. It is plain to all that Irish politics have always been equally composed of politics and religious opposition by both sides.

If you know your Irish history you will know that Scottish sectarianism was deeply involved in the historic annexation of Ireland by first the Kingdom of England and then by the embryo United Kingdom.

The, “Plantations”, in 16th and 17th-century Ireland were the confiscation of Irish land by the English crown. This involved the colonisation of Irish land with settlers from Great Britain, (England, Wales & Scotland). These followed small scale immigration to Ireland as far back as the 12th century. These were known in Ireland as, “The Old English”, or, “The Ascendancy”, and formed a distinct ethnicity in Ireland. There was also unofficial plantations by privately by landlords in Antrim and Down.

The 16th-century plantations were achieved throughout Ireland by the confiscation of lands occupied by the Gaelic clans and the Hiberno-Norman dynasties,. Mainly in the provinces of Munster and Ulster.

The English Crown granted these lands to colonists (known as “planters”) from England. This was begun by Henry VIII and continued under Mary I and Elizabeth I. It was then greatly accelerated under James I of England/VI of Scotland, Charles I and Oliver Cromwell when Irish land was granted to Scottish planters. This phrase refers to the, “implanting”, of foreign to Ireland immigrants , not to them being planters of crops.

In the 16th century these tended to be based on small “exemplary” colonies. While later plantations were based on mass confiscations of land from Irish landowners and subsequent, “implantation”, of numerous settlers and labourers from England and Wales, and later, from Scotland.

The later official plantations were established under the English Commonwealth and Cromwell’s Protectorate during the 1650s. Thousands of Parliamentarian soldiers were then settled in Ireland.

Apart from the political plantations, significant immigration into Ireland continued well into the 18th century, from both Great Britain and from continental Europe.

The faiths of the implanted immigrants was, Protestant while the Irish peoples were mainly Roman Catholics and thus the politics and religion have always been intertwined. In effect the Westminster Establishment have always used Christian Sectarianism to bend the people of Ireland, or indeed the entire British Isles, to do their dirty work for them.

IMHO

God doesn’t exist. Religious belief is simply a symptom of an inability to grasp the complexity of the natural world.

Equally, if you indulge in various behaviours that are simply reserved and are generated by the colour of a team strip, then that is pretty sad.

When you drop down to the level of the subjects under discussion, then what you see demonstrated by certain sections of Scottish society equally demonstrates the multi layered aspects of the human character.

Sometimes it easier to simply pigeon hole people on the basis of their behaviour in order to understand where you, the individual sit in relation to others.

So, with my pigeon hole metaphor in hand, I’m going to pigeon hole the individuals that indulge in the various behaviours. No need to stretch out great lengths of prose, or historical fact and figures to justify it.

There are pigeon holes available, labelled “Rational Individual” etc.

Equally there is a pigeon hole labelled “Arse Holes”

If you understand the concept of the pigeon holes, then you can reshape behaviours in order to occupy the pigeon hole of choice.

Simples!

If Muslim United were to have Forty or fifty thousand supporters in their ground singing and chanting and waving foreign Flags proclaiming death to the Brits or celebratory songs of victorious deeds over Scotland or England or maybe up to their knees in Christian blood or Freedom songs about their brothers illegally held in Guantanamo

Would that be tolerated by government or the people would that be defended by those who would herald it as freedom of expression
or do we think somebody might suggest we come up with some law to make that behaviour offensive

Would the same little jumped up Arseholes want to bin that law to make a political statement of their own bigness and self importance in those circumstances

O/t

@Cearc
Posted a reply on other thread but here too in case. Delighted to meet today at noon. Ceilidh Place coffee shop. Black and white jumper. Husband with yellow jumper.

In Ireland a majority of Catholics and Protestants supported Home Rule. A majority of the people supported Home Rule. It was a mass Home Rule movement. Led by a Protestant landowner Charles Stewart Parnell. Catholics did not have equal rights under British rule. No right to own land ,carry a sword or own a horse – ie the same policy in Scotland An attempt by Westminster Gov to suppress Scotland and Ireland. To keep England Dominant. Ireland would have been Independent long ago. There is still the possibility of Ireland reuniting. Demographically.

It was Westminster which discriminated against Catholics in Britain, but also it was the (unelected) British Gov who caused the problems. The Act of Union terms guaranteed a shared Protestant Monarch. Only a Protestant can be a Monarch in The UK. Scotland was guaranteed it’s own legal system, Church (education) system, and equal treatment for ever. That promise has not been met ever.

It has precious little to do with Scotland. It was Westminster (no universal suffrage) policy which discriminated against Catholics in Iteland and Scotland as well. Westminster (the British State) discriminated against Ireland and Scotland. It had precious little to do with where people settled. It was a Protestant King who gave land for the plantations. The settlers were massacred, Then the settlers massacred the incumbent population. The Westminster establishment descriminated against Catholics. They also descriminsted against Ireland and Scotland. They still do.

It is the UK Gov which has continued the campaign against Ireland & Scotland to this day.

Cameron who doesn’t care. He said ‘the next time the Scottish Gov comes down to Westminster to ask permission for another Panda for Edinburgh Zoo from China’. The VOW. Hoping Scotland would go away. Not come back stronger.

China – ‘Scotland the land of discovery and invention’

China – ‘Britain is a land without influence and without Empire’.

China – Osbourne’s new ex best fiend. Tory tax evading Queen Bee can’t keep quiet but insults the Chinese Premier. Osbourne (tax evader giving the Chinese £60Billion for a Nuclear Station by the sea. A total waste of time and public money. Taking 12? years. A total disgrace to line the pockets of his associates. HS2 is the same. A total white Elephant. A total waste of time and public money.

It is always worth remembering that religious troubles, even open warfare, in Scotland and Ireland was a three way split – Anglicans, Presbyterians, and Roman Catholics.

The 17thC in Scotland saw a century long struggle between Covenanter Presbyterians and Charles 1&2 who wanted to impose the Episcopalian Anglican style church on this country.

link to en.m.wikipedia.org

In Ireland, Presbyterians in Ulstar (who had come from Scotland) were also persecuted by the Anglican Establishment. The Society of United Irishmen ….

link to en.m.wikipedia.org

… and the 1798 Rebellion had radical Ulster Prebyterians at its core …

link to en.m.wikipedia.org

My point is that recent Catholic Protestant troubles in the west of Scotland are only part of a much more complicated history. The tendency of the sides to simplify their history does no justice to the struggle of people like the Covenanters and United Irishmen.

Google Jane Elliot’s experiment on YouTube, where she tells her classroom full of kids that blue eyes are better than brown eyes.

It doesn’t matter whether it is eye colour, skin colour, ethnicity, football team, or religion. You sow the seeds of hatred and they take root alarmingly fast. It never does make sense, it doesn’t have to. It never has any logical foundation, but doesn’t require one. Hatred is a switch in your head that is easily turned on, but devilishly hard to switch off again because it feels such a natural condition.

The hope for Scotland lies in those young kids still uncorrupted by sectarianism, and growing up wanting no part in the sectarian bullshit so relished by their fathers/brothers/peers, and breaking the chain so the hatred isn’t passed down to the next unsoiled generation.

It is not about religion. Don’t kid yourself. It is a primal and malevolent, yet wholly artificial, distinction between “us” and “them”.

In 21st century Scotland, sectarianism is nothing more than a chronic embarrassment and a refuge for self righteous bigots. That it exists at all is a dismal dereliction in our collective education.

It isn’t the words in any particular hate song that matter, nor its history, nor its symbolism, it’s the venom in your heart that makes you want to sing them, and inflict your hatred onto somebody else for no better reason than to provoke them. Here’s a suggestion… Grow the fuck up eh?

Never mind the Anti Social Behavior act, if shutting down every football club in the country was certain to eradicate sectarianism from Scotland, then I would do it in a heartbeat. Once sectarianism was certified dead, we could start our football afresh, clean and uncorrupted and safe for our kids to go and watch. It wouldn’t work of course. Sectarianism is a cancer which would just move into something else and ruin that.

Would BBC logos on the track suit be a fitting touch……

What about KAYE’s show, and all the papers ……. Sex scandal …..SCottish Nookie Party…… What a coincidence, same Female journalist in both stings……..

The britnat media, especially the bbc, would love to see sectarianism on the rise in Scotland. I believe, however, more and more people in Scotland are seeing the britnat media for what it is: sick.

OT but the Herald on line has surely plumbed the lowest of depths with the spurious drivel it has headlined today.

I beg , yet again , that no-one goes to comment – treat them to their usual bunch of unionists .

A great day to be had in Yoondom today with the call Kaye program and all the participants trying to avoid screaming down the telephone line what they’ve really called in to say
which is SNB Baad and we’re so happy about it

It’s amazing the lengths these people are going to to sound as if they’re reasonable people (Honest we are)

But once again it comes down to the so called newspapers “Alleging” stuff, because if they don’t allege other stuff then it’s purely and simply salacious sleaze and SNP Baad and unjustifiable to print it

On my admittedly not great counting skills that now comes to thirty SNP MPs who have allegedly done stuff that to date none of which has resulted in any criminal charges to anybody

By any stretch of anyones imagination that’s got to be a record for any political party to have over 50% of it’s representatives accused of wrongdoing without guilt being found in any of the cases

So any sane person would then be forced to look at exactly what’s going on with a media that’s so obsessed with finding and reporting stuff that’s either irrelevant or flat out untrue practically all of the time about one particular political party

I’m completely stumped as to why the media in the whole of the UK doesn’t like the SNP
Will anybody be able to come up with the answer I wonder?

@ Dorothy Devine 10:04am

Spot on, Dorothy. Boycott all britnat media – print, TV and internet.

Someone mentioned President John Kennedy earlier – I was at East End Park (as a Dunfermline supporter) the day after he was shot dead in Dallas. The Pars were playing Rangers and there was no crowd separation in those days. I think it was the legendary Jock Stein who asked over the PA system for a minute’s silence in respect of the President’s death. Within seconds the Rangers supporters started up with one of their pleasant ditties. I, as a foolish kid of 17, asked one of them why. He’s was only a “Kafflik” came the reply. I wondered for years how you change that sort of mindset. Not easy but at least our Scottish Government is trying – not turning a blind as the Government in London used to, and the law up here did!Unionism is the plague that caused all of this division in these island and the sooner we rid ourselves of it the sooner sectarianism and bigoted driven hatred will die out completely!

Dan Huil says:
18 May, 2016 at 9:57 am

The britnat media, especially the bbc, would love to see sectarianism on the rise in Scotland.

Ruby replies

They are particularly interested in encouraging sectarianism in politics.

SNP bad
Scotland bad
Unionism good
UK good.

‘Sectarianism is a form of bigotry, discrimination, or hatred arising from attaching relations of inferiority and superiority to differences between subdivisions within a group.’

The unionist ‘movement’ is on a loser with the stereotypical thug, well known; they cant spell, they can’t debate without abuse, they hate everything except white protestants.

I am a Republican, but not a Catholic, I couldn’t give a monkeys what religion anyone is, most people think like this

@Truth,

Re JFK. See my follow up.

Capella, the quotation you were looking for is at the end of the previous thread.

The only thing missing from the cartoon is a couple of ‘Ruth Davidson Party’ rosettes.

Before I was born my Mum came to Scotland married to my Edinburgh Dad and when asked at that time, as were all folk by their neighbours what religion she was, she proudly stated

Church of England, whereupon folk would say but that’s Anglican isn’t it, that’s almost Catholic, my Mum would then retort, but that’s what the queen is, and the answer once again was, Aye, almost catholic

From that time my Mum decided she was a Baptist and nobody knew how to answer that one Coz that’s almost Proddy
There were more Proddies in my street than Kafflicks

My Mum never went to church and nor did most of the people doing the asking

But many of them went to football, Proddies walked down the right side of the street and Kafflicks on the left

My Dad had little to no interest in football except to moan about the Scotland team of the day, win or lose
I remember my Dad laughing and mocking the rubbish in newspapers from over 60 years ago and here I am doing the same all these years later and wanting what he wanted then

Scotland Free of the dominance, lies, manipulation and bad governance of the south

Doing the best I can Dad

@Ken500 says: 18 May, 2016 at 9:16 am:

“It was a Protestant King who gave land for the plantations.”

Whoa! There! Ken500.

The Irish Plantations covered hundreds of years and began long before King James. If you really want to learn Irish History you might consider this:-

link to historyworld.net

It lays things out in a logical and easier to follow and understandable manner.

If memory serves the first mainland British attempts to settle in Ireland began in 1494, by Welsh based Norman Knights. To my mind the Establishment are still attempting to make all Ireland a Kingdom of England annex.

@ Chris Cairns You have me confuddled is that auld rangers fans or new-co fans. Great addition for midweeks laughs.

I suppose if the site owner does deem you as being a troll you can always re-register with a different user name.

@ George Wood says at 1:32 am …. ”In my experience, faith schools either cause problems that weren’t there in the first place or exacerbate problems that already exist. We would be far better taking religion out of schools altogether.”

Totally agree George. Religious bigotry usually begins on your ‘mammy’s knee’ but if all children went to the same school over a period of a few years working and playing together their mindset would change to some extent. It would probably take a generation or two to wipe the ingrained bigotry out but we have to start somewhere and it should be now.

Additionally Scotland is no longer predominantly Catholic and Protestant it’s becoming more and more multi-cultural – multi-faith. So where does it all end? How many faiths will we have to cater for in Scotland over time? How many more divisions will we be creating by continuing with ‘faith’ schools – and no doubt storing up even more trouble for the future?

If the parents of children are ‘big’ on their particular faith let them teach it at home, in their particular ‘churches’ or send them to classes …. somewhere …. outwith normal school hours.

Good morning, Ruby.

Still going around the Internet stirring up apathy, I see.

Did I see something in the site rules about changing names? I don’t think I did, can you point to that for us?

Is a troll the same thing as someone who changes their username? Maybe people change their usernames for understandable reasons — when they are under sustained mind-numbingly boring attacks from a clique of bullies, for example.

ronnie anderson, good morning to you too.

It’s unfortunate that you feel angered by my presence. Yet again you call me a troll and that, as I said, is something I think you should reconsider.

It isn’t good for the flow of debate to bog Wings down with these baseless accusations and I wish you would stop it and simply ignore me, as the rules on etiquette suggest you should.

Can we get to the position where anybody that disagrees with us on some points is not accused of being a troll?
I am happy to debate things. It’s a conversion exercise we are on.
In my judgement a troll is an agent who pretends to strongly agree with us while sowing seeds of confusion and introducing biased facts and figures.

@Rookiescot says: 18 May, 2016 at 9:35 am:

“Would the cartoon still be humorous and pithy if the two guys were dressed in Celtic garb?”

Well! RookieScot, the answer is YES & No. What’s more you can stop playing the victim’s card – it won’t work.

Yes it would be every bit as humorous but NO it would not be nearly so pithy. The reason being that while the Celtic supporting lot of sectarian scum who also indulge in such obnoxious behavious and are every bit as brain dead as the as the idiotic and brain dead Rangers supporting lot they are not unionists.

The fact is that this forum is a pro-Scottish supporting independence forum and as such is not either anti-football, anti-Rangers Football club nor anti-Celtic Football Club, What is more it is not anti-Rangers & Celtic supporters.

The obvious target is, to any non-bigoted, non-biased reader, the significant minority of bigoted, sectarian thugs who propagate hate and discrimination from football grounds throughout Scotland. These thus causes fear and alarm among all decent Celtic, Rangers and every other team’s supporters throughout Scotland.

It also affects any innocent bystanders that happen to be in their vicinity.

Which vicinity includes trains, busses, and the streets and by-ways of Scotland.

Pity you lacked the simple common sense to know the actual significance and target of the Chris Cairn’s cartoon and imagined it was aimed at all the decent Rangers and Celtic supporters whose only fault is not making a good enough stance against the thugs that disgrace their supporters clubs.

It just happens the Rangers club are part and parcel of the Loyal Orange Order and espouse the Union flag, English Royalty and wear the same red, white an blue colours. None of which have the slightest thing to do with Scottish football.

When Fred was at the school he had an RI teacher who occasionally waved his arm vaguely & told the class that we were acting like “that other lot!” a veiled reference to RC kids whose school was so far away I never discovered exactly where it was? He had been in the war & had a twitch so mebbes we should make allowances! Anyhow, the Tims had the best songs & truth be told, the best singers.

This business is a not-very-cunning Kellyesque ploy to distract the hard of thinking from Slabs own shortcomings, their disastrous election results & PFI craws coming home to roost big time.

AhuraMazda – I would just ignore the person, they are also fishing/trolling you by calling you a troll, the more you respond the more they will do it. Don’t bite.

How many profiles can one person have when Trolling I think weve expearinced this in the past, Multiple as they TROLL many sites with they,re various screen names, why so ?.

Robert Peffers says: ……..

Had the cartoon depicted a Rangers supporter talking to a Celtic supporter then your argument about it being aimed at the extremist sections of both clubs would be valid. It would have made a far better point in my opinion.

However it does not.

It is extremist views like your comment about “It just happens the Rangers club are part and parcel of the Loyal Orange Order and espouse the Union flag, English Royalty and wear the same red, white an blue colours. None of which have the slightest thing to do with Scottish football.” says a lot about your own sectarianism.

As a Rangers supporter this kind of comment makes my job of convincing fellow supporters to view independence in a positive light far harder.

Perhaps you and others on this site could take this on board.

Think my point was made when I mentioned focussing on only one side of the equation as being a tactic used by a troll.

There a bigots on both sides. There may also be idealists. There are also those who see our independence as only being a way to further their own ambitions for a united Ireland rather than as for the good of Scotland. We don’t need any credence to accusations that this website is actually pro IRA or any such shite. Corbyn is being dragged over the coals with similar accusations at the moment.

@ AhuraMazda says at 3:13 pm …. ”Reminds me of something Churchill said about the truth being so fragile it needs a bodyguard of lies to protect it … You’re all insane.”

It reminds me of something else that the great British Imperialist had to say. Agree with it or not:

“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property – either as a child, a wife, or a concubine – must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the faith: all know how to die but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.”

Petra, Churchill said a lot worse than that. You should look into what he said about using chemical weapons on Syrians etc.

Agree with it or not? LOL. I’m not so vain to assume my views on Churchill matter to anyone likely to read them on here.

I have business interests and friends in the Levant though; I guess that makes me biased or something. We all agree that Britain should keep its nose out, and that most of the problems in the region can be directly attributed to British meddling.

Good here. I’ve just joined.

I come from a parallel universe – over there, the Cathars are Third Lanark supporters.

I disagree, sectarianism is still a serious problem in some places. Just because other problems also exist in the world that doesn’t mean sectarianism should be ignored.

James Cormack – I guess the reason why Sharia law is not discussed in the UK is because Sharia Law is not applied in the UK and in fact is not fully applied in most Muslim countries either.

Another reason might be that the UK has stuck it’s nose into enough countries and left a hell of a mess behind afterwards.

Countries may naturally grow out of such things if they were allowed to progress in their own way without constant western criticism and bombing back into the stone age. How can a country progress when it’s infrastructure is constantly destroyed?

@Jamie

Clydebuilt has been posting on Wings for a long time and I have never saw that he/she has tried to draw attention to themselves. Unlike you Jamie.

@ Jamie at 8:03pm …. ”Sharia Law is not applied in the UK.”

Search online for Sharia Law UK. You’ll find that there are at least 30 Sharia Law Councils in the UK.

Thepnr- i am just outspoken if you or anyone else have a problem with that, hardlines.

Petra- so a small number of places take some recommendations on sharia law it is not the same as the uk applying sharia law or what are you saying, I should be terrified of the Muslim (as that was the point of the poster)? Nah, no Muslim ever caused me any harm. Last I looked, other than the CIA trained and funded ISIS a sick group (and they did not invade the west) no Muslim country has invaded a western one in the last two decades. Shame the same can not be said of the UK.

I remember the Scots were Irish who displaced the indigenous tribes after a battle in Fife, later Scots planted Northern Ireland, in America they call themselves Scots Irish! Anyhow I don’t care what you think you’re genetics say, as long as you want the best for Scotland and all our people that’s just dandy.

@George Wood
“No, you missed the point. The problem occurred because of the existence of the Faith school. If the catholic pupils had been at our school instead of a separate Faith school then they would have just been pupils like the rest of us.

At my secondary school, there was no Faith school nearby and we didn’t have problems with religion. ”

The problem wasn’t the faith school at all, it was your bigotry against them. There are Catholic schools all over England and Wales too, children from other schools don’t go round attacking Catholic children, so its clearly not the faith schools that are causing such sectarianism.

How about Turkey’s invasion of Cyprus & Franco’s use of North African troops in the Spanish Civil War?

Europe doesn’t have much of an interface with Muslim countries which is why we go to them.

Turkish Cypriots were a small minority, the resulting land-grab was nowhere near in proportion to their numbers. If the Turks were to have what they thought was theirs half the Balkans would go. What was Lord Byron fighting for. I won’t mention the genocide of the Armenians or the massacre of the Greeks by the same Turks.

When I was at school, a long time ago, I had a woodwork teacher who was known to be a bit of a bigot. One day, a fellow pupil made a mess of a piece of wood and was told to “do it the Protestant way”. I commented that that was probably how he had got into that mess in the first place. After that, I never passed another test and was always in trouble for one thing or another. I gave up woodwork.