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Doing something

Posted on December 02, 2015 by

Alex Salmond in the Syria debate with the non-pacifist case against bombing.

(Features brief cameo appearance from Alberto Costa MP, noted twat.)

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193 to “Doing something”

  1. gordoz says:

    Absolute barnstorming speech –

    Labour a total shambles

  2. Geoff Huijer says:

    ‘Civilian casualties of note’ FFS!

  3. Swami Backverandah says:

    Erroneous assertion that ‘not bombing is equivalent to doing nothing’ made so many times today in the House of Commons that you’d be forgiven for thinking that those making that assertion probably asked Santa for another neuron to keep their solitary lonely one company.

  4. galamcennalath says:

    Alex Salmond speaks for me. Simple.

    Why bomb when there are other approaches? Perhaps because bombing is all Cameron is wiling to do because the other actions would trample on too many powerful ‘friends’ and corporate interests?

  5. Peter Craig says:

    Is it possible for Alberto Costa to be anymore odious than he already is?

  6. David McCann says:

    An early Christms present from the UK.

    I wonder if the UK will get one back.

    The season of goodwill just ended before it began

  7. Fireproofjim says:

    Go on yersel Alex.
    A great speech. Spells out a clear alternative strategy. Shows up the Tories/Labour for what they are.
    What a man to have on our side.

  8. Proud Cybernat says:

    We bombed Iraq. Result? Shambles. More people want to kill us.

    We bombed Afghanistan. Result? Shambles. More people want to kill us.

    We bombed Libya. Result? Shambles. More people want to kill us.

    We’re on the cusp of bombing Syria.

    The definition of madness, most eloquently defined by Einstein, is repeating the same mistake over and over and expecting a different result.

    It will end in tears. More people will want to kill us. And the result of that it will bring even more restrictions to our civil liberties (perhaps part of the plan).

  9. Sooz says:

    As Alex pointed out, the government has dragged its feet in actually doing something to stop the flow of Daesh money and oil or to sabotage their internet presence that helps them spread their propaganda.

    That fact alone makes this call for bombing a complete sham, because the reading of the UN resolution is being interpreted by the war hawks as “only bombing is acceptable”, when the wording includes “by all means possible”.

    The case against bombing has been made, time and time again, by those who know the situation on the ground. It will not help, and instead will exacerbate the chaos and lead to thousands more dead, maimed and fleeing refugees.

    So let’s do what WILL work.

    But the government won’t, because their interests are tied up with those who aid and abet Daesh, and doing what works restricts the profits being made by those who benefit from the war machine.

  10. Angra Mainyu says:

    If there’s one positive in all this; look at the now pathetic scale that the RAF operates on compared to others.

    Britain is a military tadpole.

  11. galamcennalath says:

    Alberto Costa, a Scot holding an English seat for the Tories. He must know his political future is on a shoogly peg given the rapidly evolving situation in Scotland.

  12. No no no...Yes says:

    Alex Salmond has made many speeches in the Commons, but this is one of his best.

    Cameron’s feeble case merely exposes his thinking as a PR chancer hoping to hoodwink the nation into a conflict that has no prospect of any measurable success.

    I only hope there are sufficient Labour and Tory MPs that see sense and vote with the SNP and Plaid Cymru against the government.

  13. How is an ‘allied’ campaign with Putin who wishes to support Assad supposed to come to any kind of satisfactory solution?

  14. manandboy says:

    Alex Salmond, the voice of reason. From Scotland.

    He makes the Tories look like confused schoolboys.

  15. ahundredthidiot says:

    Thanks Alex, great contribution, and I am sure others will make similarly good points, and, while grateful to hear my point of view aired in HoC, these speeches will be like UN resolutions.

    Like cockroaches in the the road as the Meat Grinder wagon of war trundles over all those in their path.

  16. ian says:

    And theres a proper statesman all the ‘i dont like Alex salmond’ should be forced to watch this and apologise.A Scot to be proud of.

  17. pa_broon74 says:

    Good speech hitting many of the points that need to be made.

    Listening to stuff on the radio through out the day, I got the impression that the current UK government just can’t admit that they’re essentially held to ransom by their own circumstances – they can’t afford to offend the Saudis etc and they don’t have the reach to make a difference with ISIS or what ever we’re calling them today.

    They just can’t admit it, so they think being seen to do something (how ever pointless) will stop people from realising just how impotent the UK is on the world stage.

    MP’s in favour of bombing are engaged in a hugely expensive and ruinous confidence trick – if not that, then they’re just deluded.

  18. Les Wilson says:

    A terrific sensible speech from Alex, I would also give the same to Angus Robertson who had the Tories on the ropes, and he really did sqeeze them,they had no answers to his question, and the whole of the UK should see it.

    Tories are trying every trick in the book to get their war.
    Their strategy is faulty, they should be denied.

    In general, all our MP’s who spoke did well.

  19. jimnarlene says:

    Whit planet is Alberto Costa on? “Civilian casualties of note”, what the f**k does that mean? A single innocent life, is one life too many.

  20. ahundredthidiot says:

    Please remember that, while Labour is irrelevant in Scotland, it is still relevant in HoC.

    Oh Mr Corbyn, what a let down you and your party are.

    I want labour finished, but I want war less, with 60% of his party’s backing, he should’ve gone on the offensive within his own party weeks ago. What a weasel of a man. Almost as bad as Cameron.

  21. Free Scotland says:

    @jimnarlene

    Spot on.

  22. ahundredthidiot says:

    Jimnarlene @5:42

    Couldn’t disagree with you more. If all the MPs who vote for this are drinking in a HoC bar with the Labour cabinet of the day which backed Iraq, well, I am thinking a single Brimstone missile (or whatever the feck they’re called), well, I’d be happy to make an exception.

    That, and I would’ve personally been happy to put a bullet in Hitler’s head if I’d been born early enough and had the opportunity.

    Same beast.

  23. Anne Roberts says:

    Absolutely excellent. A true statesman.

  24. Clootie says:

    oh to be a nation in which statesmen such as Alex determined our position on World affairs….but alas

  25. Skooshcase says:

    Again, Alex Salmond nails it. He speaks for me.

    I have good friends in Turkey. They are of the younger generation. They detest Erdogan and what he has done in his time in power and is trying to do with the Turkish state. Turkey was much more secular in outlook before he took office. But now there is a slow creep back to non-secularism. The youth and the moderates of Turkey are an unhappy lot due to Erdogan and his policies. Yet, he was re-elected back to power in the previous election… by the conservative middle-class, the rich, the corporates and the elderly, as he was when first elected.

    Familiarities there with Scotland’s Yes and No to independence voters and their social demographics…

  26. Valerie says:

    No, Costa could not be one iota more odious, he is at weapons grade odiousness.

    Great speech from Alex, though I have noted of late, he looks knackered. 🙁

    In case you missed this. A good little k to use about the impact thus far, on children.

    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBREA291TC20140310

  27. Macart says:

    Ooft! (with nobs on)

    Well, folk wanted to see Alex get stuck in and he didn’t disappoint.

  28. Swami Backverandah says:

    What they’re not telling all those hand-wringing must bomb fannies in the Commons.

    William Hague in the Lords – from Groaniad liveblog
    Hague says Syria and Iraq may need to be broken up

    “William Hague did not speak for long in the House of Lords, but he made two important statements.

    Hague said it might be necessary to break up Syria and Iraq.

    We should be open to new solutions. In the end, if communities and leaders cannot live peacefully together in Syria and Iraq then we will have to try them living peacefully but separately in the partition of those countries, regretfully though I say that.

    He said it could be necessary to deploy ground troops, like special forces, to defeat Isis. They could not be defeated without the use of military force, he said.”

    Short version: military takeover and carve up.

  29. Valerie says:

    Disgusting. BBC reporting as if we are at war!

    Despicable performance.

  30. ahundredthidiot says:

    Swami@6:05

    It’s Hague’s turn to plant the seeds of the future, just like it was Dr Liam Fox (aka grade A arsehole in his own extended family) when he was banging on months ago about the threat of Isis to western Europe and how we might need to revisit our strategy on syria to prevent it. He can’t tell the future, ergo, it is planned, promulgated and executed in an orchestrated manner – insidiously so, and anyone who spots it is labelled a crank conspiracy theorist.

    It’s just the way of things I guess.

  31. Jimbo says:

    I wonder how many Labour MPs will have listened to Salmond’s argument against bombing but will still go ahead and betray the innocent people of Syria at 10.00 pm tonight?

    Will they care how many they’re condemning to death?

  32. Graf Midgehunter says:

    This speech and the one from Angus just goes to show up the sheer quality of the Scottish 56 who represent our country in the UK Parliament.

    Whenever one of them (esp. the “Big Yins”) makes a debate speech or asks a question at PMQs, the amount of noise seems to quieten down as people have already noticed that the SNP folk are very well briefed with facts and are more interested in contributing to a debate and not scoring malicous tittle-tattle points.

    Compare them to Mundel, Murry and the odious Costa.

    I’d like to see the SNP go into the SE16 campaign with the same fighting spirit that Alex showed us how today. 🙂

  33. Skip_NC says:

    Robert Knight, I was thinking that this morning. The only way this will work is if our exit strategy involves keeping Assad in power. Has the UK cabinet thought that far ahead?

  34. Jimbo says:

    Meant to add: There’s a lot of gaps in the Unionist benches for what is, in essence, a life or death debate.

    Have those who’ve absented themselves already made up their minds?

    Are the Labour pro-bombing MPs at the bars drinking from bottles courage?

  35. Marie Clark says:

    Chapeau to Alex Salmond. Well said that man. Speaks a lot of common sense, and has at least some idea of how to handle the problem, without obliterating men, women and children in the process.

    You certainly speak for Scotland Alex.

    As for that twat Alberto Costa, dear oh dear. Without turning the air completely blue, I’ll just leave it at words fail me.

  36. Skooshcase says:

    @Swami Backverandah at 6:05 pm

    “Hague said it might be necessary to break up Syria and Iraq.”

    “In the end, if communities and leaders cannot live peacefully together in Syria and Iraq then we will have to try them living peacefully but separately in the partition of those countries, regretfully though I say that.”

    we will have to try” “the partition of those countries [Syria and Iraq]

    FFS, just listen to that/read those words! William Hague says we* will have to try to partition two sovereign countries….

    Is that right, Hague? So, would we* ask the people or the governments of those countries first, or would we* just go ahead and say, ‘Sorry guys, but we* have decided what’s for the best! So you lot will have to move to that bit, and you lot will have to move to that other bit, and so on. Easy!’…?

    Is it 2015 or 1815? Is the British Empire still a thing?

    The utter arrogance of this British Establishment past-relic has-been is truly amazing.

    *not in my name

  37. jacksloan2013 says:

    Alex Salmond at times just containing his anger at the jingoistic stupidity of Tory Government policy.
    Forceful and certain, he is clearly a Scottish statesman to be proud of.

  38. heedtracker says:

    Great speech. But why does toryboy world, BBC etc all want another war? Follow the money and oil no doubt.

    Alberto’s just another red or blue tory sock puppet because endless war is great, for Westminster politics.

  39. Iona says:

    Given that Cameron, as AS pointed out, asked the Westminster Parliament to support bombing the other side just 2 years ago …. does that not mean that officially in 2013 he was the terrorist sympathiser? Surely not!
    Cameron wants a seat at the big boys’ table and that is all he cares about. There is nothing he wont flip on in his own best interest. Morally bankrupt.

  40. Ken500 says:

    The planes have left.

    So much for Democracy

    The Westminster psycopaths

  41. Awizgonny says:

    The City Remembrancer will have not been keen on calls to check links to Daesh from financial institutions…

  42. Jimbo says:

    @Swami Backverandah at 6:05 pm

    Hague said it might be necessary to break up Syria and Iraq.

    We should be open to new solutions. In the end, if communities and leaders cannot live peacefully together in Syria and Iraq then we will have to try them living peacefully but separately in the partition of those countries, regretfully though I say that.

    FFS.

    Why’d he not just suggest killing off half the natives, put the other half on reservations and take over their land? It’s not as if Britain doesn’t have a history of doing that already.

  43. McBoxheid says:

    I agree, not only from Alex and the other SNP MPs but with all of those against this bombing of Syria. What the warmongers who condone this action have all failed to address, is what about cutting off the money that finances it. Without that happening, bombing is not only a waste of time, it is killing innocents to boot.

    Secondly, this magic 70,000 force ready to overwhelm Da’esh, what have they been doing while every other belligerent has been bombing Da’esh? How many are prepared to fight alongside each other?

    Thirdly, why is the UK prepared to bomb but not put boots on the ground if their cause is so righteous? Has the answer to do with the number of bodybags that will return and upset the “Country” that might cause loss of faith by the public in such an action?

    I’ve been to war for the UK, funnily enough, the UK wasn’t directly threatened then, but hey, political vested and making a few million for your own personal benefit is far more important than the lives of those that actually have to do the fighting.

    It is suprising the number of Tories that oppose, but they are outweighed by the Blairites that are for it.

  44. scottieDog says:

    Aye and we know the (unelected) remembrancer pretty much runs the show.

  45. mealer says:

    It looks like Scotlands MPs will vote against the bombing by 57 to 2.We’re about to be dragged into another futile war by a government we didn’t vote for.

  46. Hugh Kirk says:

    Alberto Costa, “Civilian casualties of note”. I watched him say that live. The odious little cunt.

  47. Ken500 says:

    It was British/French Imperialists who formed Syria/Iraq. They refused to give the people the vote and illegally took their Oil and resources. If people resisted they bombed them to bits M15/CIA caused unrest and killed the people. Put the leaders, PM in jail. UK/US and France did it all over the Middle East and left the people in poverty and deprivation. Westminster sanctions vulnerable people and starves them to death. They use the Offical Secrets Act to cover up their crimes. People can’t eat, heat or sleep and are worried sick because of the psycopaths at Westminster. May they rot in hell. Spending taxpayers money illegally killing folk and starving them to death. Westminster psycopaths have caused the biggest migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. They are disgusting. They should be helping people, not killing even more.

    When Scotland gets tax raising powers, the No voting tax evaders will pay their tax, to make up for
    the Westminster deficit. Some No voting tax evading £Millionaires will not have to worry about having so much cash.

  48. HandandShrimp says:

    Costa needs to be cut some slack.

    If he were a civilian casualty he would be a casualty of no consequence to anyone…anywhere. He simply can’t see past his own personal circumstances to others.

  49. john king says:

    Alex Salmond
    A political giant to Camerons political pygmy!

  50. yesindyref2 says:

    Excellent speech, made a lot of good points. I’m still not decided personally, and I’m glad it’s not my vote.

    As for the “8 Tornados” and some Typhoons not being able to make any worthwhile contribution as some have said I disagree. They’re well capable, and presumably these will be T3 Typhoons fully fitted and trained for ground attack, as are the Tornados. It’s not quantity these days, not 1,000 bomber raids on Berlin or Dresden, it’s precision and effect, and the RAF is undeniably trained and effective.

  51. Truth says:

    I was thinking, surely the way to solve problems like this is to disarm?

    Can some sort of bounty system be worked out? Concentrate on ammunition rather than the guns. Once you have no ammunition, the guns are useless. AK47s can be made very easily yourself anyway. If you have no military might, then your only option is to get round the table and talk.

    Another thing, could degradable ammunition be invented and adopted? That way at some point in time their bullets will fail and its round the table they go.

    Probably bring supremely naive here.

  52. MrObycyek says:

    To be fair to Costa he is not the only twat down there.

    The speeches of Alex Salmond, Julian Lewis and David Davis have been absolutely superb and have raised the questions that nobody in the government is interested in answering or even attempting to address.

    What is actually being done to cut off Daesh’s funds?
    What is being done to secure the Turkish border?
    What is being done to make sure Turkey does not bomb the Kurdish fighters?
    Russia attacked the oil fields but why were they not targeted before by the US and its allies?

    How there can be any actions in Syria without the government addressing those points I mentioned for me is just beyond belief but sadly it seems there are many politicians who don’t care or perhaps just don’t understand.

    Also, I am sick of politicians continually mentioning the seven thwarted attacks in the UK. What evidence is there for people to check the claims of the security services? In what way were they connected to Daesh if at all? Or were they simply inspired by Daesh propaganda meaning of course they had no connection to Daesh. It seems clear that people are engaging in blind faith here.

  53. john king says:

    Costa
    A new single celled life form!

  54. HandandShrimp says:

    yesindyref2

    Think it is just 2 Tornado and 6 Typhoons. The 6 Tornado planes in Iraq I think will still be required there although it would be just like it if we took our eye off that ball.

    I don’t think the Typhoons are Brimstone ready yet so they will be dropping muckle paveways. Of course it may be that they struggle to find any worthwhile targets but I am sure they will bomb something early doors just so Cameron can mark his territory. If they screw up and kill civilians Cameron will ignore it.

  55. Gary45% says:

    Just saw Caroline Flint on the Brillo politics show on the I-player.
    The only reason I can see why the Labour politicians are going for war, is to undermine J.C, this will give them the perfect excuse to overthrow him.
    That is their only reason, or they really are MURDERING BAS*ARDS, along with the rest of the warmongers.
    Not in my name.
    O/T
    On a lighter note.
    Plod Scotch-shire has a new Chief Constable.
    Having been previously in charge of the Norfolk Constabulary.
    Plod Scotch-shire will now be known as the Wurzels.

    Wurzel will be liveried on all the vehicle’s and the new siren will be ,
    Oo Arr, Oo Arr, Oo Arr.

  56. heedtracker says:

    Better Together Slovenia branch is on fire today. Faux anger in Slovene maybe means something different.

    Adam Tomkins ?@ProfTomkins 8 hrs8 hours ago
    Salmond doesn’t even do faux anger very well any more, does he? Compelling performance from the PM.
    12 retweets 11 likes
    Reply Retweet 12
    Like 11
    More

  57. brobb says:

    Two points struck me after listening to some of the debate (and reading/watching speeches not reported).

    Cameron says we have to support our close friends/allies – where was that support when other “allies” called for a united policy on resettling refugees in Europe?

    Second, perhaps the only way the MSM will eventually diminish the strength of the SNP is if they start to report a more balanced viewpoint of the wide range of political thought, without the establishment pulling up the drawbridge approach they have now. If the public had better access to a respectful wider range of views it would be better placed to form a more nuanced opinion, rather than the polarisation we have just now.

    Sadly the tone of parts of the debate as reported on the BBC just emphasises the hatred or contempt of both Tory and Labour MPS re anything the SNP might support, and an unwillingness to listen or admit they have a point. Cameron’s hollow victory if the vote goes his way and the situation evolves like Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc etc will be no comfort at all to anyone opposing military intervention because it will only result in a more dangerous world for us all

  58. David McDowell says:

    David Burrowes MP (Conservative, Enfield Southgate): “his parliamentary leader, the Right Honourable Member for Mo-RAY…” (04:13 – 04:15)
    Do these “twats” ever stop to think how ignorant and out-of-touch they sound to us?

  59. heedtracker says:

    Slovenia says Vote NO, also boosts Ruth Davidson.

    Why far right toryboy world in Scotland thinks IS’ is an existential threat to the I can’t begin to guess. The West survived WW1, Nazi Germany and the Cold war, but somehow the far UKOK right will make IS the next threat, somehow

    Adam Tomkins ?@ProfTomkins 12 hrs12 hours ago
    I was opposed to the Iraq War in 2003 but, if I was an MP, I’d support today’s government motion. IS pose a clear threat to the UK and –>

    Adam Tomkins Retweeted
    Herald Scotland ?@heraldscotland Dec 1
    Ruth Davidson: IS pose ‘existential threat’ to western civilisation & Britain’s way of life

  60. HandandShrimp says:

    Wurzel will be liveried on all the vehicle’s and the new siren will be ,
    Oo Arr, Oo Arr, Oo Arr.

    That is Somerset, Shirlry?

  61. McBoxheid says:

    MrObycyek says:
    2 December, 2015 at 7:26 pm

    Also, I am sick of politicians continually mentioning the seven thwarted attacks in the UK. What evidence is there for people to check the claims of the security services? In what way were they connected to Daesh if at all? Or were they simply inspired by Daesh propaganda meaning of course they had no connection to Daesh. It seems clear that people are engaging in blind faith here.

    This is what the Tories do. They use deception to paint an image to get people to believe there is no alternative and then bray at anyone with the audacity to question them. They also use the BBC and the press to drive any point they want to be made in advance of any possible dissent in the Commons.

    At least this time, people have been allowed to speak against them without the normal abysmal behaviour they default to when they don’t get their own way.

    What a difference between Kwasi Kwarteng and Mark Durkan. The first completely clueless and the second to the point and precise as any Brimstone strike by the RAF

  62. john king says:

    “Cameron says we have to support our close friends/allies ”

    What?
    Like this you mean?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17256975

  63. Conan the Librarian™ says:

    “We have a hammer, and we want to use it.”

    Brian Eno.

  64. heedtracker says:

    Followed Prof Tomkins Herald link boost for Ruthie babes, and wish I hadn’t. Maybe Slovenia is tory free

    “Ms Davidson said airstrikes would “diminish their capacity to strike against a country, whose way of life they said they want to destroy”.

    She stressed: “This isn’t a war that we’ve chosen; this is a war that we’re in. Paris didn’t choose what happened to it. It could have been Edinburgh, it could have been Birmingham, it could have been Cork or Dublin, Ghent or Bruges, Munich or anywhere else.”

    A war we didn’t choose.

    When bluetory freak show peddle this UKOK fraud in a rag like the Herald, Slovenia may be the only safe haven left from the tories.

  65. onelessday says:

    Has anyone noticed fluffy today?

    John Nicholson spoke well

  66. r baxter says:

    politicians in the employ of corporate mafia have no reason. when supplying taxpayers money to their friends in the arms industry.

  67. nodrog says:

    Come back Alec and run the YES Campaign. Please,please,please. We need you.

  68. Gary45% says:

    handandshrimp@7.46
    Oops!!
    I just tried to lighten the subject.

    A cracking speech by A.S.I will always believe in diplomacy, when it comes to conflict, but I am resigned to the fact, the warmongers will get their way.
    I am totally embarrassed to be a part of this sorry isle.
    I knew guys who were at the Falklands, and when you hear it from the horses mouth, war is not the answer.
    As someone asked earlier, why didn’t America bomb the oil supplies?
    It had the magic word OIL.(That is why Westminster is also going in.)
    Sad times ahead folks, I do hope I’m wrong.

  69. Robert Peffers says:

    @Swami Backverandah says: 2 December, 2015 at 6:05 pm:

    ” … Short version: military takeover and carve up.”

    Which is exactly the very actions of the Yanks & UK that began the troubles in the Middle East in the first place.

    This ended by with the artificial creation of the Jewish state of Israel and the consequent increased friction between the several sectarian factions now killing each other with such gusto. It also has the entire mix of them all hating the so called Christian World.

    The Christian West has been killing them since the first Crusades but the present trouble was by creating several countries with lines on the map. When the real solution was to clear off and allow the several native religious factions in the area sort it out among themselves.

    It will end up eventually sorting itself out in that manner anyway. In essence it really is not our problem – we just caused it to drag out for so long and become much, much worse.

  70. HandandShrimp says:

    IS pose ‘existential threat’ to western civilisation & Britain’s way of life

    This is just so much hyperbolic crap from Ruth Davidson. Far from an existenial threat I consider the very existence of IS life affirming. Whatever faults we may have the deranged utterings of weirdy beirdies in a desert are patently not the answer to anything.

    Ruth can’t have much faith in her own sense of being if she finds their bullshit an “existential threat”.

    Yes nut jobs can be a physical threat on a small scale. However, they have zero chance of changing our way of life. Part of their anger and willingness to die is that they know they are not going to succeed and they don’t want to be around when it all turns to disillusion and dust.

  71. john king says:

    nodrog
    Don’t even say that as a joke!
    You know he’s the best person for the job, I know he’s the best person for the job, the public? meh not so much.

  72. heedtracker says:

    HandandShrimp says:
    2 December, 2015 at 8:05 pm
    IS pose ‘existential threat’ to western civilisation & Britain’s way of life

    This is just so much hyperbolic crap from Ruth Davidson

    Another tory sock puppet, Ruthie babes.

    The appalling fact of our lives is that the right in which ever country, US or here, are a real threat to civilisation. The last who knows how many years alone have been that of extraordinary struggle and battles to overcome the right, wherever they are.

    Or look at our neighbouring countries that have shaken off tory rule once and for all.

  73. schrodingers cat says:

    glad alex brought up the question of funding of isis and also that we shout heavy arm the peshmerga

  74. nodrog says:

    john king says:
    2 December, 2015 at 8:09 pm
    nodrog

    I’ll carry his kit. Can you help as well?

  75. john king says:

    “IS pose ‘existential threat’ to western civilisation & Britain’s way of life”

    She hasn’t been talking to George Robertson has she?

  76. Robert Peffers says:

    @Jimbo says: 2 December, 2015 at 6:23 pm:

    “Meant to add: There’s a lot of gaps in the Unionist benches for what is, in essence, a life or death debate.

    Have those who’ve absented themselves already made up their minds?”

    Of course they have not made their minds up, Jimbo.

    They are what is known as, “Lobby Fodder”, (the ones with no personal opinions of their own). The Lobby Bell rings out, the Lobby Fodder flows out of the many Westminster watering holes and get whipped through the division Lobbies and drift back into the Westminster Watering holes – many not even aware of what they just voted for.

    That is exactly the function of the party whips – to whip their party members through the correct division lobby.

    Face it, if the Lobby Fodder knew what the score was they wouldn’t need whipped.

  77. yesindyref2 says:

    @HandandShrimp
    Thanks. I’d guess the Tornados would light up the target for the Typhoons then, as they’ve done before. I’ve lost track of when the Typhoons would be fully capable. just presumed it’d had happened.

    If the Typhoons do need the Tornados, it’s not the properly effective force I’d described.

  78. Iain says:

    O/t .I noticed tonight that Tory government is looking into making public service workers redundant for a lot less money. Well how would you vote now in a Scottish independence referendum? (I have two no voting friends)

  79. velofello says:

    Nice piece of lateral thinking by Truth: ban the manufacture of the munition calibre of popular weapons, e. g. Ak47s or whatever they are termed.Of course there will be illicit manufacturers, but costs will rise, and quality uncertain.And learn from the washing machine obsolescence strategy “Sorry, parts are no longer available”.

  80. Andrew McLean says:

    Bernard Jenkin

    15 years since 9:11 and we are still learning? Well time to start!, bombing hasn’t worked!

    Eternal war is all they offer! This is the crux they’re out of their depth, the have no answers just war, eternal war!

  81. Simon Curran says:

    Four arrested in Luton over terror plot, watch out Bedfordshire the Tornadoes will soon be on their way.

  82. galamcennalath says:

    Should MPs with a vested interest / investments where they could make money from arms sales, or benefit in any financial way, be allowed to vote on war?

    Suppose same is true on drug company / private healthcare interests and voting in NHS matters.

    When you work for a private company, conflicts of interests are never tolerated. So why are MPs allowed to make decisions where the is a conflict of interest ie. their personal finances and what is best for their constituents!?

    They are supposed to declare all interests, but I don’t believe this means they have to avoid voting.

    My guess it it would exclude a lot of Tories from a lot of votes!

  83. Petra says:

    Sad to say, it looks as though we’ll be bombing Raqqa within the next 24 hours. Bombing babies out of their cots …. some of the ”no civilian casualties of note”.

    Take heed of ‘reduces’ to ‘eliminates’ on here.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXr1HOC0YPc

    Well first of Cameron’s list of aims now achieved. Then it will be UK boots on the ground as mentioned by Hague already. And of course anything can happen next such as Russia accidently (or not) taking down a US jet or vice versa. Another World War is not out of the equation, as we all know, then it’ll be conscripted UK boots on the ground with Scots at the forefront as usual.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic2fdmAioZg

    Interesting to note too that Scotland is lumbered with warmongering Westminsters Nuclear weapons at Faslane and their jets at Lossiemouth. Huge attraction I would have thought for terrorists or foes in general …. bomb Scotland first please.

    All we can hope and pray for now is that Cameron will be forced to deal with, as ‘forcefully’ requested for by people like Alex Salmond, Daesh finances, Daesh control of Internet sites and Turkeys nefarious behavior etc etc.

    Alex Salmond made a real fool of Cameron today by pointing out that the price of one bomb would have paid for the ”squadron” of personnel required to cut off Daesh cash (lifeline) and access to youngsters on the Internet. Also highlighted that Cameron had sat on a Committee for two years to deal with these particular issues and they had done nothing … come up with nought. How they must detest having our highly intelligent and extremely articulate SNP MSPs sitting in the Commons now ‘outing them’ after years of having callow ignoramuses, SLab politicians, such as ‘gimme ma expenses’ Curran and Hood sitting on their backsides doing nothing at all other than embarrassing the Scots.

    The Scottish Labour numpties will keep their mouths shut of course until they see which way this goes (they’ll have a long wait), especially taking into account that most of them, such as Joanne Lamont, were herded like ‘sheeples’ into supporting the Iraq War. Only fair to mention too that one half-decent SLab member of note at that time, non-sheeple, was John McAllion.

    http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politics/angry-scenes-as-scottish-parliament-debates-iraq-war-10-years-on-1.78224

    My thoughts are with the thousands of poor, innocent, desperate souls tonight who now know that more fire and ‘brimstone’ is heading their way. I can hear their pleas for help and woeful cries from here. Praying for a miracle …. for peace the World over.

    And once AGAIN I’m saying, along with most others on here I’m sure, ‘NOT IN MY NAME’.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWr9ZZWASuQ

  84. schrodingers cat says:

    glad alex pointed out that funding for isis and other jihadi rebel groups be stopped.

    snp mps standing up for the kurds, natalie mcgarry, phillipa whitford, want an independent kurdistan. including alex who wants to heavy arm the peshmerga

  85. neil bruce says:

    onelessday says:

    2 December, 2015 at 7:54 pm

    “Has anyone noticed fluffy today?”

    Yes, I did, briefly. He looked as if he had been cast adrift on a sea of bewilderment.

    Which I suppose is normal for him.

  86. Gary45% says:

    galamcennalath@8.35
    Agreed, conflicts of interest should automatically debar MPs from voting (e.g. sugar tax – food companies have effectively scuppered this before it gets anywhere by having influence within government circles).

  87. schrodingers cat says:

    sorry for repeat comment.

  88. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Velofello, Truth. Nope, non starter, its a lot easier to make ammunition than it is to make Arms. The world is awash with AK’s in any case, and ammunition would either be bought or made.

    Good to see the Turks being fingered for bombing the Kurds, and for buying the oil/supplying IS with weapons and fighters. They should be chucked out of NATO, or suspended til they get rid of Erdogan.

  89. Lenny Hartley says:

    Re euro fighter or typhoon ground attack capability following from Wikipedia
    Quote
    Due to the limited ground attack capabilities of the RAF Typhoons in the campaign against ISIL, the UK has delayed the retirement of one squadron of Tornados and is attempting to bring forward the deployment of Brimstone missiles on the Eurofighters to 2017.[190]
    Unquote

    Also the tornadoes are unreliable pieces of junk, they probably are still carrying a lump of concrete in the nose as the radar system was scrapped as it did not work.

    To describe the R.A.F today as capable is like describing Corbyn as a born leader of men.

  90. schrodingers cat says:

    erdogan said he would resign if evidence was found of turkey buying isis oil
    Russians published evidence today of erdogans relatives gaining financially from isis oil, they said that Erdogan wouldn’t resign even if his face was smeared with isis oil

  91. Albaman says:

    IF those fighter planes do go to Cyprus to carry out bombing raids into Syria, I ask have these aircraft been fitted with “anti collision warning devises” yet?, as the M.O.D. has promised to “look” at for many a year.
    Some really compelling speeches from the S.N.P. m.p./s and others against the bombing.

  92. Free Scotland says:

    I’ve just been watching http://www.parliamentlive.tv and, within 10 to 15 minutes it became obvious that the only difference between most of the male labour and tory speakers was that the labour lackeys were wearing reddish ties and the tory lackeys were wearing bluish ties.

  93. Cadogan Enright says:

    Erdogans family benefit from DAESH stolen oil

    Cameron needs to explain what he is doing about it

    http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/02/europe/syria-turkey-russia-warplane-tensions/

  94. Robert Peffers says:

    @Truth says: 2 December, 2015 at 7:17 pm:

    “I was thinking, surely the way to solve problems like this is to disarm?”

    NO! Way!
    Look, Truth, the Western powers have been interfering in the Middle East since it was the Ottoman Empire. There were various religious sects throughout the area who all wanted to just have a bit of the area for themselves.

    Left alone they would have certainly fought to gain a country of their own but simple numbers of the various sects would have sorted out how much of the area they settled down in.

    However the European, (and subsequently also the Europeans who became the USA), colonised the area and carved it up between themselves – creating artificial countries in the process.

    The area was thus never at peace as none of the native sectarian divisions got an area, (country), of their own.

    Then, the various European Empires got involved in fighting World Wars with each other which obviously involved their Middle Eastern colonies and at the end of WWII the Yanks & UK instigated the Jewish state of Israel which was a very large and powerful cat among the Middle East pigeons.

    So the only actual religious sect in the Middle East that, with the help of the US & UK, got a country of their very own but who then proceeded to colonise the lands around them and are at present attempting to wipe out Palestine by military force is the Israelis.

    Can you actually see the Yanks agreeing to deprive the Israelis of arms and funds?

    The various religious sects in the Middle East all hate each other with a religious fervour but they all hate the Christian Western World even more.

    Have you not noticed that as the West bombs one lot of what they call terrorists, all to hell there is, like London Buses, another one coming along in a minute or two.

    The more the West bombs to hell the more they hate the West and there is more than enough wealth in the Middle East itself that cutting off outside funds and arms is not going to stop them. How many, including the Israelis, have or are working towards nuclear arms?

    Now think on this – if you believe you will get the fast lane into paradise by killing non-believers are you not going to take that route and become a terrorist for your God? Who needs more than a death wish to take down the enemy you hate?

  95. K1 says:

    That Tory Hilary Benn is speaking right now…he’s on the wrong side of that table…

  96. Frank Wright says:

    I’m watching the debate on BBC Parliament TV – it’s about one before the vote.

    The case for bombing looks poorly thought out. If UKgov get the go-ahead for war in Syria on the backs of votes by Labour MPs, I do not see this working out well for Labour.

    I even wonder that it might negatively affect Scottish Labour in May.

  97. Dcanmore says:

    and here is tonight’s London Evening Standard’s trite response to Alex Salmond’s speech courtesy of Tory lickspittal commentator Matthew d’Ancona …

    “Alex Salmond, meanwhile, condemns the government for ‘running scared from the scrutiny on its plans which don’t stack up’. This is rich coming from the SNP’s foreign affairs spokesman who missed last week’s Commons debate on Syria to unveil a portrait of himself in Edinburgh.”

    Insightful commentary and journalistic nuance there from Fraser Nelson’s big pal (and just as dim).

  98. K1 says:

    I take it he sees himself as the next leader of the Labour party?

  99. Valerie says:

    The false flag of the terror suspects in Luton was right on cue, early this morning. Also, some kind of evacuation took place.

    When will folk stop falling for this shit?

    I’ve listened to the bulk of the debate today, and those supporting the bombing are spouting such flimsy rhetoric, it’s embarrassing.

    Two points.

    Almost everyone in HoC, using the term Da’esh, thanks to SNP.

    No one has touched on the number of deaths, current living conditions, the vulnerability of children, starvation etc. in Syria.

    Now Hilary Benn is showing up his poor dead father. Relying on the UN resolution to justify murder.

  100. schrodingers cat says:

    @Cadogan
    thanks for posting the link

  101. K1 says:

    Oh I see he’s going for ‘shock’ value to justify his stance…hmm…his faux outrage is repellent. Fearmongering careerist.

  102. Swami Backverandah says:

    Who was that MP pro-bomber deploring ‘finger-jabbers’.
    He should direct his attention to Hilary Benn.
    He’s demonstrating the rare two-handed art.

  103. K1 says:

    This guy Benn loves himself doesn’t he…the Tories are lapping him up…is he the Tory’s lap dancer….

  104. Iain More says:

    The British Establishment and its Press and Media lickspittles showing once again that they are nothing more than psychopaths.

  105. msean says:

    Thought you weren’t allowed to clap. Looks like someone wants Mr Corbyns job there.

  106. MrObycyek says:

    Hilary Benn makes my skin crawl. What a horrible horrible man. He used his speech as an opportunity to try and portray himself as some kind of leader and how the Tories saluted him.

    I will never understand why Corbyn gave them a free vote. He could have killed two birds with one stone: opposed the strikes and forced some of his back stabbing cabinet to resign.

  107. schrodingers cat says:

    @Robert Peffers
    you are correct

    the problem is due, in large part, to the historical division of the land mass

  108. K1 says:

    Disgusting. They are all clapping, but the speaker did not stop them. Fucking hypocrites.

  109. caz-m says:

    K1

    Hilary Benn is after Corbyn’s job. A Red Tory in every sense of the word.

  110. Swami Backverandah says:

    Benn pushing Cameron’s line that international borders are a fiction.
    No sovereign states.

    Disgraceful Commons applauding civilian deaths, and the flouting of international law.

    Shame on them.

  111. heedtracker says:

    That Tory Hilary Benn is speaking right now…he’s on the wrong side of that table…

    Back in early 80’s even my tory friends thought his dad Anthony Neil Wedgwood Benn, was a tory plant.

    England is a weird place sometimes

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/29/hilary-benn-tony-families-betrayal-rightwing

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/11189430/Tony-Benns-inheritance-tax-dodge-how-it-works-and-how-you-can-use-it-too.html

    But now publication of the details of his will – coupled with records held by the Land Registry – suggests he took practical steps more than a decade ago to reduce the impact of this tax on his heirs.”

    Red or blue, tories are a crazy breed.

  112. K1 says:

    Now Hammond is guilt tripping the Labour party…pathetic.

  113. Valerie says:

    http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/12/02/wests-deadly-mideast-fantasies

    Good analysis by someone who should know.

    Hilary Benn being congratulated by Fallon – vomit inducing.

    How could anyone still in Labour believe in those types? Ugh.

  114. Jon in Chicago says:

    Can we trade a first round draft pick and a reasonably sized bag of cash for Alex Salmond?

  115. Swami Backverandah says:

    The Vienna players agree to transition Assad out, but Syria is not represented there.
    Russia doesn’t necessarily agree Assad should go, just because they back elections.

  116. Bob Mack says:

    The RAF do have precision weapons,but I do not envisage those other nations like France America,Russia and all the rest waiting about if they see a target of opportunity, on the RAF coming to have first shot.

    Not all the other nations will work that way.The RAF may have “clean” kills,but the others still use munitions that are deadly to all within half a mile distance and will use them as they see fit.

  117. Valerie says:

    @Bob Mack @9.55

    What do you mean by precision? I thought the only precision kill was made by a sniper?

  118. caz-m says:

    To think this is what has been happening to Scotland for years. Dougie Alexander and the rest of the Scottish Labour contingent would have waved this through, without any arguments.

  119. Free Scotland says:

    Osborne looks half-cut.

  120. K1 says:

    I do not trust a word out of Hammond’s mouth. This is a grave mistake.

  121. K1 says:

    I thought Osborne looked like he needed a wee snort of snuff maself Free Scotland.

  122. Grouse Beater says:

    Given that the Tory party has, for over thirty years, only religiously pursued policies that benefit big business and corporations, what evidence do we have to assume that this time they are solely concerned with protecting British citizens at home?

  123. Stuart says:

    Which Alex Salmond are we talking about?

    The one who spoke today?

    Or THIS Alex Salmond in favour of bombing Syria in 2013?

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/syria-action-backed-under-independence-salmond-1-3071423

    “AN independent Scotland would not have rejected the prospect of military intervention in Syria like the UK has done, Alex Salmond said today.

    The First Minister said Scottish MPs at Westminster backed the possibility of action through the UN – if the use of chemical weapons had been proved by weapons inspectors.

    This gives an “indication” of the way an independent Scotland would have acted, Mr Salmond said in a speech in Fraserburgh.”

    Seems the SNP have mair faces than the toon clock!

    In case someone says chemical weapons have not been used in Syria, yes they have, and the UN has mandated action.

    The SNP’s stance on Syria is nothing more than naked opportunism, to score a few cheap points.

    So will the real Alex Salmond kindly stand up!

  124. heedtracker says:

    It’s never going to happen but if they lost this vote tonight, Cameron’s gov would be brought down tomorrow. If only there was an actual opposition in Lab, with some sane backbench Tory back woodsmen.

    SLab cowards are way too quiet. Creepy dysfunction and SLabour unionists go hand in hand.

  125. K1 says:

    Here we go.

  126. mealer says:

    I see Hilary Benn got a big round of applause in the House of Commons.

  127. Lochside says:

    @ Stuart…so you’d rather vote for a pig in a poke rather than a poke in a pig?

  128. sinky says:

    Salmond did not back the bombing of Syria in 2013 or at any other time

  129. Breastplate says:

    Would they still be having this debate if they voted in the previous debate in 2013 to bomb Assad forces?
    Britain could have ended up bombing both sides including ourselves.
    How far down the rabbit hole are we?

  130. K1 says:

    ‘The First Minister said Scottish MPs at Westminster backed the possibility of action through the UN – if the use of chemical weapons had been proved by weapons inspectors.’

    He also backs potential military involvement in Syria under similar caveats as above.

    Tell me Stuart, did you enjoy that, your breathless excitement at posting that is noted. Thanks for your input into the debate.

  131. skozra says:

    ^http://www.scotsma …… stopped reading there and onto the next post

  132. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Stuart, re the chemical weapons incident in Syria. They were supplied by Saudi and the rebels themselves triggered them killing some of their own people in the incident.

    “Evidence leads directly to the White House, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Martin Dempsey, CIA Director John Brennan, Saudi Intelligence Chief Prince Bandar, and Saudi Arabia´s Interior Ministry.”

    http://nsnbc.me/2013/10/07/top-us-and-saudi-officials-responsible-for-chemical-weapons-in-syria/

  133. Del says:

    @Swami Backverandah at 6:05 pm
    Hague said it might be necessary to break up Syria and Iraq.

    France and the UK have a long history in this respect, going back 100 years to the breakup of the Ottoman empire at the end of the First World War. In fact much longer than that, considering Egypt and Mesopotamia.

    Who was responsible for the borders between Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, northern Arabia? France and the UK. Who was responsible for the puppet kings and dictators of that time? France and the UK. Read up about Sykes and Picot, the Paris Peace Conference, San Remo, Sevres, Lausanne, running up to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, with Ataturk deposing the last caliph in 1924.

    Russia would have been involved as well had they not been involved in their own internal Revolution. Italy was on the periphery. The USA not directly involved, but wielding influence.

    Alex Salmond took us back only as far as Libya. He deliberately refrained from talking about Iraq and Afghanistan except in passing; the latter of which brought both UK and Russian invasions to their knees prior to that.

    I’d like to hear a historian’s perspective on UK involvement in the Middle East. Forget the romanticism of Lawrence of Arabia; our fingers are dirty. I’d prefer to assume Hague is ignorant rather than he is willing to ignore past grievous errors.

  134. Bob Mack says:

    @valerie.

    By precision in this case.it means they occassionally hit the target.(sarcasm)
    The Brimstone has a relatively small blast area as opposed to a 1000lb bomb. Still enough to kill anyone within 100yds as opposed to half a mile.

    It will just kill less people per hit which is no comfort whatsoever.

  135. Lochside says:

    Hilary Benn not fit to lace his old man’s boots..really? see this from 2013:
    http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-letter-to-tony-benn/

    Apples don’t fall far from the tree.

  136. Petra says:

    Interesting comments from Dr Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative). Chairman of the Defence Committee at 2:25pm

    http://www.parliamentlive.tv

  137. Luigi says:

    A momentous decision, many innocents will now die, and all Stuart can think about is:

    SNP bad, Salmond bad.

    It’s a bit pathetic, mate.

  138. Croompenstein says:

    I know I shouldnae respond but I’m really not in the mood for bawbags like Stuart posting pish on here tonight. Stuart take off your union jack underpants and put them over your sad fuckin unionist nut skiddy side front you utter fucknut…. (and breathe)

  139. Simon Chadwick says:

    Thanks Stuart for the link to the Scotsman story from 2013. Your quote from it seems to have been inexplicably truncated though:
    “The amendment gave an indication of the sort of role an independent Scotland will be able to play on the international stage – we will work with our allies to help the victims of conflicts, contribute to conflict resolution and ensure that war criminals are brought before the international criminal court.”
    Was the proposed action in 2013 against ISIS/Daesh, or against the Assad government? Its not clear to me. Perhaps you could clarify as you seem to have more info on these importnt details.

  140. Macca73 says:

    Gutted, I think we need to be pushing for UDI now to get away from this.

  141. Petra says:

    Ayes: 397

    Nos: 223

    Thanks for that Labour. Bunch of bl**dy warmongers and a total waste of space.

  142. Cadogan Enright says:

    397 v’s 223

    Looks like lots of Labour and LibDems giving most of their supporters the two fingers to please the Corporate Media Bubble in London

    I am sure that will go down well

  143. Jimbo says:

    Well there we are then. as expected the warmongers have their way.

    Onward Christian bombers…

  144. Lochside says:

    So Cameron the latter day Crusader is literally going to pour fire and brimstone on Syrian civilians? How so bloody apt: wrathful and vengeful destruction on a biblical scale.

  145. Ken500 says:

    The low lives have done it again.

    The sooner Scotland is Independent the better.

  146. Petra says:

    I posted something earlier, hours ago in fact, and it still hasn’t appeared. I’ve tried again and it says ‘duplicate post’. It also goes on to ‘wp-comments’. This is happening fairly often now. Does anyone have any idea as to what’s going on?

  147. Fran says:

    Here we go again then eh. Cammers has got his wee war after all.

    The 1st sorties will be in the morning no doubt and the B.U.M front pages will be full of how great rule Britannia is.

  148. scottieDog says:

    The purple majority.
    Red and blue tories aligned.

    Who sad cameron had a slim majority of tories.

  149. Joemcg says:

    The alleged 55% have got blood on their hands now. Fucking disgrace the lot of them.

  150. Quakeawake says:

    Scotland is now dragged into a military campaign, against its obvious will, that will kill innocent people.

    SNP have to put Indyref2 in its manifesto now. If this isn’t a material change I don’t know what is.

  151. Gary45% says:

    BASTARDS, every one of them

  152. James Barr Gardner says:

    Well that’s that! Labour have dragged us into another illegal war, they can only be described as the lowest placemen of the elite wastemonster toalies.

    Labour in Scotland are now totally finished and so is Corbyn, both as welcome as the Plague!

    We must walk very quickly away from this cesspit and the scum creatures that reside in it.

    Scotland is about Hope and reaching out to people and helping folk needing help not this further madness, we are better than this, and we will prove it, Scotland rise up! Get us away from these lunatics, aye before it gets any worse! These money grabbing megalomaniacs are already looking at Iran, what’s next?

  153. Petra says:

    Just heard that the Tories would have won without Labours help anyway. What a bunch of numpties. A party in shreds for nothing at all it would seem. Well not exactly nothing at all. We’ll soon have a list of their names and in doing so will be able to identify the Blairites, as will their Constituents.

    It’s also become clear that Hillary Benn is after Corbyn’s job. Did you note the hand-clapping after his speech (thought that wasn’t allowed?)? No doubt engineered in advance by Cameron …. manipulative wee man.

  154. yesindyref2 says:

    According to the scotlandvotes poll, for whatever that’s worth, 72% of Scotland were against the air strikes.

  155. The Rough Bounds. says:

    I was talking to a Turkish Kurd to day. (yes, really). He seemed very well informed, as you would expect as he still has family over there. He told me bluntly that western governments’ secret service have spies within Daesh/Isil, and that the west and presumably Russia know pretty much everything Daesh/Isil intends to do and what their plans are.

    I hadn’t thought about that possibility, and it may just have been his own opinion, but then I thought about the IRA and the fact that the British had placemen right at the very top of that organisation.

    This is a very murky business we are getting involved in. I think the bombs issue may just be some kind of diversion and that we’ll be sending young men there before very long.

  156. Pedro says:

    Not MORE point ed sticks.. when is humanity gonna look itself in the eye and find a commonality among the codes we live by?

    (Besides, when we all realise the price we’re paying for point ed sticks these days, heck it just ain’t worth it, Folks!)

    This has the potential to go tits up very quickly.

    Please pray it doesn’t.

  157. Angra Mainyu says:

    Petra, I think the principle that underpins the no clapping rule is based on the idea that Parliament is about tongues and talking and not hands or any other part of the body — the word parliament itself derives from the old French Parlement which pertains to talking.

    I can only assume they made a clapping sound with their mouths. That said, my golfing friend Jack had a hip replacement 3 years ago and he makes a similar sound when he’s doing practice swings. Maybe a lot of the house have similar hips.

  158. HandandShrimp says:

    No great surprise I suppose. The biggest factor in all this has been the split down the middle of the Shadow Cabinet.

    That is Labour’s problem and one that may haunt them for some time.

    The main issue now is to ensure we don’t end up in some idiotic slide into confrontation with the Russian/Iranian/Syrian side and think we can slip easily from chasing a few weirdy beardies around the wastelands of Syria into full blown regime change.

    Cameron either doesn’t know what his goal is or he has deliberately kept it out of sight. If it is just so he can sit at the top table and say we dropped bombs too then it may all pass out the news pretty quickly. If there is a hidden agenda to oust Assad then it could all seriously fall apart and a number of Labour MPs may feel betrayed…more worrying is that some may be hoping there is a hidden agenda and are still on message abour regime change and power politics.

  159. James Barr Gardner says:

    I am feeling a wee bit better after my previous comment, just made a belated St Andrews donation to the SNP.

    The Rough Bounds. says:
    2 December, 2015 at 11:05 pm

    This is a very murky business we are getting involved in. I think the bombs issue may just be some kind of diversion and that we’ll be sending young men there before very long.

    Totally agree with you there, how many secret tractor placement are within our communities it makes you wonder, shades of East German Stasi, and Benn talks about ISIS disrespecting our democracy, what democracy?

  160. mrbfaethedee says:

    For Fuck’s sake!

    It doesn’t matter how great Salmond, or Robertson or anyone else was in arguing against this.

    Any political, military, or strategic ‘analysis’ of this is utter wankery.

    The only thing that matters is the fact that it didn’t matter what they said – it never will.

    get us the fuck out of here!

  161. heedtracker says:

    Even Max Hastings says its “bonkers”

    Cammers used same stuff in his let’s bomb Libya debate and look at that. Russia and war near them is a v v bad thing, says Max, Newsnight England. Newsnight Scotland, SNP bad no doubt.

  162. Petra says:

    (Splitting up my post to see if that works)…………

    Sad to say, it looks as though we’ll be bombing Raqqa within the next 24 hours. Bombing babies out of their cots …. some of the ”no civilian casualties of note”.

    Take heed of ‘reduces’ to ‘eliminates’ on here.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXr1HOC0YPc

    Well first of Cameron’s list of aims now achieved. Then it will be UK boots on the ground as mentioned by Hague already. And of course anything can happen next such as Russia accidently (or not) taking down a US jet or vice versa. Another World War is not out of the equation, as we all know, then it’ll be conscripted UK boots on the ground with Scots at the forefront as usual.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic2fdmAioZg

    Interesting to note too that Scotland is lumbered with warmongering Westminsters Nuclear weapons at Faslane and their jets at Lossiemouth. Huge attraction I would have thought for terrorists or foes in general …. bomb Scotland first please.

    All we can hope and pray for now is that Cameron will be forced to deal with, as ‘forcefully’ requested for by people like Alex Salmond, Daesh finances, Daesh control of Internet sites and Turkeys nefarious behavior etc etc.

  163. Petra says:

    Alex Salmond made a real fool of Cameron today by pointing out that the price of one bomb would have paid for the ”squadron” of personnel required to cut off Daesh cash (lifeline) and access to youngsters on the Internet. Also highlighted that Cameron had sat on a Committee for two years to deal with these particular issues and they had done nothing … come up with nought. How they must detest having our highly intelligent and extremely articulate SNP MSPs sitting in the Commons now ‘outing them’ after years of having callow ignoramuses, SLab politicians, such as ‘gimme ma expenses’ Curran and Hood sitting on their backsides doing nothing at all other than embarrassing the Scots.

    The Scottish Labour numpties will keep their mouths shut of course until they see which way this goes (they’ll have a long wait), especially taking into account that most of them, such as Joanne Lamont, were herded like ‘sheeples’ into supporting the Iraq War. Only fair to mention too that one half-decent SLab member of note at that time, non-sheeple, was John McAllion.

    http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politics/angry-scenes-as-scottish-parliament-debates-iraq-war-10-years-on-1.78224

    My thoughts are with the thousands of poor, innocent, desperate souls tonight who now know that more fire and ‘brimstone’ is heading their way. I can hear their pleas for help and woeful cries from here. Praying for a miracle …. for peace the World over.

    And once AGAIN I’m saying, along with most others on here I’m sure, ‘NOT IN MY NAME’.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWr9ZZWASuQ

  164. Andrew McLean says:

    Ok so it is on, so no matter how accurate our bombs are we have 10 different countries who are bombing and I am sure the recipients relatives will be relieved when we say they weren’t ours, they have just poked the bear.

    So let’s use our voice to hold Cameron’s nuts to the fire, he wanted a war, make him answer for ever bomb, we have our MPs all of them, bring back the innocent two! As for Stewart you didn’t follow Alex’s comments in the commons prior to your post, he was complaining we weren’t providing heavy armour to the rebels fighting the nutters who think they talk to God. Idiot.

    And as for sensible you are a hypocrite, I have read your previous posts on here condemning and picking fights with posters who were not in favour of war, well you got your war so fuck off, enjoy it you will love it. How fucking dare you post on a Scottish minded website about war, Scots made up a higher percentage of fighting solders in the British army than the English ever did. And still do.
    Watch a play called Black Watch, it’ll explain more than I ever could.

    First on the agenda the Labour Party is finished in Scotland thanks to Tony Benns lad, well that’s a shocker , but I’ll take it. The Labour Party is wonded let’s finish them off hold them up for the Hippocrates they are, Nicola needs a vote to see how many support this action in Holyrood. They are dammed if they do dammed if they don’t. It’s a question for them that has no correct answer.
    Then this 70 thousand weekly questions on where are they, even the American defence chiefs tonight say it’s a insignificant token force, Cameron has done a Tony his dodgy dossier is soking with pish and falling apart already!

    Good night, thank you, Wosers and may you’re god go with you.

  165. Fran says:

    Where do we fit in, in this little mess now its chalks away? As far as I can make out this is how things stand.

    The Saudis, UAE and Jordan have not flown bombing sorties against daesh since the summer and the Canadians have refused.

    The Saudis are backing NAS & Al-Qaida (if they are not daesh then are they classed as “moderate”?)

    The US are backing the Kurds which the Turks are bombing and Russia has been giving air cover to the Kurds, who in turn are co-ordinating with the Syrian Government forces in pushing back daesh.

    The US and France have been arming the Free Syrian Army which in turn are selling/passing onto NAS & Al-Qaida.

    The US have just recently started bombing the illegal oil trains to Turkey due to the fact that Russia has shown them up.

    Turkey is supplying money and arms to daesh while pretending to oppose. They also shot down a Russian bomber which the US seem to acknowledge with out comment was brought down over Syrian airspace.

    Russian strategy seems simple enough, clear the country of everybody against Assad, whether we like it or not is still the legitimate government in Syria. Any regime change there that Russia will agree to will need to benefit Russia, they still want their friend in the middle east.

    Iran? they would love to blow the Saudis off the face of the planet given half a chance.

    If we fit in anywhere in here it would be to back the Lebanese and protect their border as daesh are now crossing in, but that would piss Israel off, as that’s their perfect excuse for going back in hunting down Hezbollah.

    No, the RAF don’t fit into anywhere in this tragedy.

    There was a quote that 60 countries are involved in the middle east war. How many countries need to be involved in a war before its classed as a world war, given that China has declared war on deash, or is that just a geographical term?

  166. Angra Mainyu says:

    HandandShrimp, seems odd hearing that from you given that you trust them in Iraq, the British bombing of which you support.

    This is about bombing Syria, as I have said all along. The appeal is oil. The British were scheming to get rid of Assad two years before the Arab Spring or any of this ISIS stuff even started — as early as 2011 it seems.

    If there’s one group of people capable of taking us into an apocalyptic war with Russia, it’s the British Tories. So we should all sleep well tonight.

    I guarantee you they start bombing Syrian military targets within 48 hours.

  167. Robert Peffers says:

    @Stuart says: 2 December, 2015 at 10:08 pm:

    ” … So will the real Alex Salmond kindly stand up!…

    He did, Stuart, on both occasions.

    Quite obviously you have failed to understand both that the two situations were very different and exactly what Salmond was saying in both cases.

    It is really best to keep silent, Stuart, and let everyone suspect you are an idiot than open your mouth, as you just have, and thus prove everyone’s suspicions were correct.

  168. Andrew McLean says:

    Fran
    I was looking for a silver lining! Your excellent post just made me depressed.

  169. AdamH says:

    The reason Corbyn hasn’t imposed a whip is that he knows it would never hold. Little point fighting a war you can’t win. Which takes us neatly back to the topic.

  170. yesindyref2 says:

    Things have changed a bit since the Ref, but though the Typhoons are Paveway IV capable, it looks like they’re still not able for Brimstone, though as part of a £5 million program, one was fitted with 6 Brimstone missiles alongside 2 Paveway. Not clear if that was for photo op, or operational, doubt if operational though.

    The program to fit Brimstone looks like it was accelerated early this year, no further info could I find. Which means nothing I guess. Was scheduled for 2018 or so, but it is possible that it’s been accelerated. Who knows, there could be 6 AC ready to use, doubt it though.

    I personally can’t see the point of 6 Paveway IV Typhoons being stationed at Akrotiri if the UK Gov sticks to its “accurate and small explosive, very limited civilan deaths”. The Paveway is 250 Kg as opposed to 50Kg. Unless they’re there for their fighter interception role which would be a bit worrying in view of Russian involvement.

    There’s a lot of clarification needed, and I have to ask if the right detailed questions were asked of Cameron before the vote. Such questions as I raised are important.

  171. donnywho says:

    You do know that any “mistakes” will not be reported or if they bomb a hospital they will interview somebody thanking them for the rapid response and post war crime medical care.

  172. Robert Peffers says:

    @sinky says: 2 December, 2015 at 10:15 pm:

    “Salmond did not back the bombing of Syria in 2013 or at any other time.”

    The point, Sinky is that in the former instance the action was a properly UN backed action and had a properly costed and planned exit laid out. In other words there was a UN point to it.

    This latter is just a shambles – a real Tory boy Eton schoolyard bullyboy situation. Hameron is just jumping on the bandwagon under the impression it is safe because everyone else is doig it.

    There are so many nations of bullies flying around loaded with bombs that they are in more danger of flying into each other than getting downed by ground-fire.

  173. Saor Alba says:

    I am so very, very proud of you Mr Salmond.
    I always have been, but my admiration for you has grown immensely after listening to your speech,

  174. yesindyref2 says:

    As another reply to Stuart, the purpose of Salmond in 2013 was to say that iScotland would support UN approved intervention, and would only support NATO if UN sanctioned.

    In the case of Syria he, like others, doesn’t believe the current UN resolution sanctions such military intervention and theoretically at least it would need to invoke Chapter VII of the UN charter which authorises military action.

    Others would argue that it doesn’t need to, that because of the politics with Russia the UN Security Council went as far as it dared and could get agreement on.

  175. donnywho says:

    Tony will be spinning in his grave after his son Hilary’s warmongering and divisive speach.

  176. yesindyref2 says:

    Hammond by the way on C4 made it clear that Russia would want to protect its assets in Syria (which includes its bases). What Hammond didn’t make clear was would the UK fully support that understandable purpose.

    In my not so humble opinion, Russia would fully support efforts to stabilise Syria, even to allow “interim governance” as long as its interests were fully satisfied. In other words what would or should be the “status quo”. I would support that, common aims would encourage 100% co-operation. What it seems to me we have is, something less. An element of sneakiness in the UK Gov perhaps.

  177. mrbfaethedee says:

    The bombs don’t matter.
    Evil people killed don’t matter – Innocent people killed don’t matter.
    Saving enemies while killing allies; doesn’t matter.
    You made it happen.
    We made it happen.

    We have decided that his system of representative parliamentary democracy is how we decide things.
    We decided we’d be better together – when that extra token fraction of bombs kills people in Syria, we elected to do it. Together. Better.

    Once we’re done with the varied analyses, get us the fuck out of here.

  178. K1 says:

    The petition is on the main thread so just in case anyone on here hasn’t been on the new thread, please sign and pass along…it’s climbing rapidly…

    http://www.snp.org/dont-bomb-syria

  179. mrbfaethedee says:

    The natural polity of Scotland would not have dropped more bombs on people in Syria right now.

    We’re dropping more bombs on people in Syria now.

    that’s all.

  180. Fran says:

    @ HandandShrimp 11.24

    Bammeron doesn’t have a goal, he is getting out. I give him 18 months then a change at the tory top. This is neither something or nothing that he is doing.

    Russia and America will avoid a war with each other. They play a dangerous game but both know the rules, they have been at it for 70yrs. America will cut Turkey loose first, they are becoming a problem for the west.

    Russia is strong but not strong enough on her own, America is the same (America needs NATO, needs Europe). Aye, they both have enough nuclear arsenal to destroy each other ten times over, but what’s the point when you have no pals to show off to and another big boy would step in anyway?

    China is the big concern for both of them, she is branching out military as well as financially.

    The only thing that ties Russia and Iran is the distrust of the west, your enemy is my enemy type of thing, that is a flimsy alliance which Iran would break first.

    There are a lot of sparks and powder kegs around the world, how’s India and Pakistan getting on? The Korean Peninsular is due a wee attention seeking tantrum soon.

    The answer you are looking for is nothing to do with Britain or Cameron, its when will America and Russia stop pricking about? Syria is just another side game.

  181. ben madigan says:

    felt sick when I heard vote had gone through, though i was not really expecting anything else

    https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2015/12/03/no-terrorist-sympathizers-in-westminster/

  182. yesindyref2 says:

    @Fran
    Yes, pretty good analysis.

  183. Fran says:

    @ Andrew McLean

    Sorry pal but that’s just how it seems at the moment.

    If Britain wants to be a major player she has to break the mould and get the deal breakers talking.

    This is part of why we want an Independent Scotland, a small country without alternative motives that can speak to and attempt to bring sides to the table on a world stage.

    We just don’t want the best for our country but for the world in general and we would have a small part to play. A lot of small parts make a large collective.

    Aye, an IScotland may need to deploy forces but I would hope it would be for the right reasons.

    There is always a silver lining, there is always hope, even in the darkest of times!

  184. ScotsCanuck says:

    Now that is a Statesman !!! … eloquent & reasoned argument. even the usually braying Tories were hushed by his speech. Alex Salmond may not appeal to all political persuasions …. but to label him as an opportunist who doesn’t understand (Westminster) politics, is being as gullible as believing in Santa !! (sorry bairns & Cameron).

  185. Fran says:

    @ Angra Mainyu 11.47

    The RAF wont target Syrian Government troops. Some reasons below.

    1: The Americans would not let them
    2: Britain would be seen as collaborators with terrorists as Assad’s forces oppose deash.
    3: There is no military reason to attack Assad (no UN mandate)
    4: He is the internationally recognised government.
    5: Even Bammers is no that daft.

    All we are going to do is kill a few daesh (with some civilians as note of course)

  186. Fran says:

    @ yesindyref2

    Its just what I think pal

  187. AndyH says:

    Salmond is a Titan of a politician.

    The man fills me with pride.

    Let’s get away from these blood thirsty imperial bastards as soon as possible.

  188. All the SNP MPs speeches against bombing in Syria were very good and did much to expose the paucity of Cameron’s case for extending the bombing campaign into Syria.

    While I hate to say but, I have to give credit where credit is due.

    I thought the Tory rebels Edward leigh, David Davis and the chair of the commons defence select committee Julian Lewis who described Cameron’s 70,000 moderate FreeSyria fighters as bogus battalions were excellent as well in speaking up against bombing in Syria.

    As for Labour I wonder what many of those ordinary members in the Labour party feel seeing Hilary Benn being cheered to the rafters by the Tories for supporting Cameron.

  189. The Rough Bounds. says:

    I watched Cameron’s face while Alex Salmond was speaking. You could read Cameron’s face like a book. He was thinking ‘Boy, I wish I could speak like that.’

    Then the Brit Nat smugness took over when he recalled that The Brit Nats were going to win the vote anyway.

  190. Will Podmore says:

    Alan, thanks for that reference, have printed it , will study.
    Parliament has sunk to a new low. Ed Miliband stopped war against Syria in 2013. Corbyn had his chance and failed to take it.
    Useless shower.

  191. michael diamond says:

    Wonder how tory rebels edward leigh,david davis, and julian lewis feel at being labelled by their leader as ‘terrorist sympathizers’?.

  192. I believe the Tory rebels weren’t happy and said so, about Cameron attempting to smear those who were opposed to extending the bombing campaign to Syria as being
    ‘Terrorist sympathisers’.



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