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Cops and cobblers

Posted on December 26, 2016 by

While its pages are mostly filled with toadying drivel about the Royal Family, today’s Scottish Daily Mail does manage to squeeze in a bit of supposed politics news.


We say “supposed” because as alert readers may have already suspected, the story quickly disintegrates under inspection. The figure of 3000 police officers leaving the force since it became Police Scotland (buffed up with a hysterical editorial on page 14 talking about the “truly alarming scale of the mass exodus”) is presented without any context as to whether this is a higher number than one would normally expect.

And sure enough, a few paragraphs in we find out that the vast majority have quit after 20 to 30 years of service, which is entirely normal – the article notes that “most officers retire in their late forties or early fifties”.

The line that caught our eye, though, was this:

“Last night, Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson said: ‘Officers seem to be leaving Police Scotland in their droves.'”

Last night? You mean on Christmas Day Ruth Davidson had nothing better to do with her life than offer vacuous quotes to justify meaningless non-stories in the Daily Mail? For the love of God, someone get the poor woman a Netflix subscription.

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  1. 26 12 16 11:57

    Cops and cobblers | speymouth

243 to “Cops and cobblers”

  1. Marcia

    “For the love of God, someone get the poor woman a Netflix subscription.”

    Lets do a crowd funder. 🙂

  2. jimnarlene

    Ruth, try telling the truth; for once.

  3. Buggger (le Panda)

    Daily is just going through the motions, again.

  4. Ken hunter

    Does anybody believe this rag

  5. HandandShrimp

    I could believe that Ruth’s life is that dull, although I am surprised it wasn’t Willie Rennie.


  6. gordoz

    Just how many political editors does that rag need.

    They do seem to go through an inordinate amount.

    Ruth Davidson would be better served by applying her energy into ending the £25m Tory cash grab via VAT.

    How about sorting that out !!

  7. Marj

    how much does this rag earn?

  8. Thepnr

    So people retire from the Police after 20 or 30 years service and that’s news?

    The Unionists really are scraping the bottom of the barrel if that’s the best SNPBAD they can come up with. It really is that pathetic.

    Ho Ho Ho!

  9. donald anderson

    Don’t forget that there are plenty of people who believe all this drivel from the GB Media.

  10. Gordon Hay

    All the usual ‘rent-a-quote’ sources will have been out of it or actually had the sense to turn their phones off for the day.

  11. Legerwood

    The Daily Mail is not the only paper running a story on Police Scotland and the number of police officers.

    Today’s Herald also has a story about likely cuts in police numbers because of the Police’s budget deficit. The paper says talks about cuts are taking place in secret.

    Clearly Police Scotland is going to be the topic of choice this week.

  12. Les Wilson

    gordoz says:
    I think the VAT grab also applies to the fire brigade.

    Yes, Ruth the Mooth would rather try and speak down anything Scottish than show any seasonal cheer. She is beyond contempt, and the Mail? A desperate case of that virus, Yoonyism.

  13. louis.b.argyll

    Maybe the Daily Mail have given Ruth a Baaad Phone so they can get quick quotes to thwart Gotham’s nationalist underbelly.

  14. heedtracker

    All to maintain the wealth and privileges of our imperial master baiters, many of whom are dressed up like clowns on horse back today, chasing down and ripping foxes to shreds. Cant beat Xmas sadists on horseback, torturing small furry animals. Vote tory.

  15. Stoker

    Ken hunter wrote on 26 December, 2016 at 10:46 am

    “Does anybody believe this rag?”

    Does anyone in Scotland actually buy it Ken?
    I’m still waiting on Nicola’s Xmas message getting a mention on TV.

  16. HandandShrimp

    If Police Scotland have lost 3,000 in the last 3 years then that is a turnover rate of about 5.8%. Which is low but typical of a public service where there is a defined career path. The all industries average for the UK is about 15%.

    It is harder for journalists though because they are not allowed to do any research.

  17. louis.b.argyll

    That article IS propaganda- pure and simple.

    We can see, with (pro UK govenment) deviancy like this,why the press regulation was so badly and deliberately fudged.

  18. geeo

    Wullie Rennie wouldn’t risk being reminded about the £800,000 police bill his party (still?) owe, surely ?

    Maybe Ruth the mooth thought she could sneak one out under the Wings Radar ? (As if….hah!)

  19. Robert Peffers

    @Marcia says: 26 December, 2016 at 10:44 am

    “Lets do a crowd funder”

    Tory over ruled Scotland is awash with many destitute, ” Tiny Tims”, (and many destitute Tiny Proddies too), who all must needs rely upon food banks for a meagre dinner at Xmas and you suggest we Wingers crowd fund the arch rich bitch Tory leader in Scotland to an on-line film subscription?

    Have certain wingers been over indulging in the Rid Biddy over the Winter festive season?

  20. Clootie

    …the truth doesn’t matter.

    An SNPbad headline is delivered, to be quoted and repeated.

    The unionist plan is very basic – keep throwing muck, some will stick.
    The media is their last line of defence now.

  21. Fred

    Doubtless Ruth was at a loose end & ran out of batteries!

  22. Stoker

    HandandShrimp wrote on 26 December, 2016 at 10:48 am:

    “I am surprised it wasn’t Willie Rennie.”

    My thoughts exactly! Mind you, he probably supplied them with a Freedom of Information request response, i believe that’s what they call an ‘investigation’ these days.

    Dugdale, Rennie and Davidson = Dippy, Dopey and Dunderheed.
    Naughty little elves!

  23. Thepnr

    This bullshit makes me wonder if Alan Roden the former Daily Mail political editor and now Scottish Labour communications director is moonlighting for the Tories?

    I can’t get over this “story” where people in work retire, some move on to other jobs. WHERE IS THE STORY?

    Thanks Rev for bringing this to my attention, it has really buoyed me up to see how pathetic the Unionist case against Scotland’s Independence is.

    The truth is they have no case, nothing at all. They are finished.

  24. Meg merrilees

    Wonder if Queenie has blown her nose yet, this morning. Och, wi a bit o luck, we might get a ‘breaking news’ update from her loyal broadcasters any moment. Mind you, my auntie’s 92 and she had a terrible cold last week- wouldna wish it on any auld biddy.

    Mervyn King withering on BBC R4 this morning about the single market and how ‘we’ could do so well trade wise if ‘we’ are no longer part of it. No mention of Scotland in the discussion.

    The Daily Heil is good for lighting the fire – must be something to do with all that hot air it contains!

  25. Sunniva

    It was the last sentence that got me. £188 million overspend by 2021? Quoi?

  26. louis.b.argyll

    Highlandshrimp..It is harder for journalists though because they are not allowed to do any research.

    Aye, but they’ve got a trade unions/associations, workers rights and codes of ethics on their side.

    These gutter types have destroyed their own profession, like in many other UK industries. Thanks, retired middle-class types with massive pensions that the taxman has provided.

    When the truth outs, and the world gets back control, the journalists (in whatever guise) will be working for the good of humanity.

  27. Stoker

    Nah, better still:

    Dugdale, Rennie and Davidson = Dippy, Dopey and Dafty.

    Altogether now; Hiiiiiiii Hoooooooo….

  28. Anne Gorman

    So Ruth the mooth has concerns about the single police force. Isnt this the same women whose manifesto, in 2011, called for a single police force in Scotland. What a hypocritic.

  29. Les Wilson

    louis.b.argyll says:

    I agree, they must keep their northern province in check by any means. Otherwise Yoonland would suffer badly. It is all about bleeding Scotland dry, they think they can keep us to impoverished
    that we will not be able to do without their, (cough) generosity.
    It has worked for over 300 years.

    But no matter what they do, times they are a changing!.

  30. Fran

    Ruthie has shown true commitment in the fight against the vile separatists. There is no day of rest, no pause in the fight for the union.

    Peace and good will to all men ( apart from vile separatists)

  31. Brian Powell

    Also worth mentioning the ‘story’ of dissatisfaction in the police, which the ConLabLibs went with a couple of years back, was to do with the Treasury scuppering an improved pension package that the SG had put in place.

    The Tories caused the problem and Lab and Tories then missed out the real reason.

  32. Wrinkleyreborn

    If you are into such things, I think you will find that following WWII many servicemen joined the police when demobbed, They themselves retired around the 1980’s and were replaced in a recruiting drive. Many of the officers leaving the service now would be those engaged then

  33. gus1940

    It’s not just The Mail printing desperate lies this morning.

    The Scotsman’s own tame disgraced ex Tory MSP has a ludicrous article in which he maintains that Nicola and The SNP are heading for the rocks.

  34. Socrates MacSporran

    I feel we should face facts here, all is not well in and around Police Scotland.

    A friend of mine, a former high-ranking officer, whose career was spent in the City of Glasgow Police, then Strathclyde Police, still keeps in touch with various similarly high-ranking officers, whom he met at a Police Command course at Tulliallan. These guys are from the likes of the former Lothian and Borders, Grampian, Northern, Central and Fife forces. All, like him, now have children or sons/daughters-in-law who are serving police officers.

    He tells me, all are concerned at the road down which Police Scotland has seemingly gone since its inception. He and his colleagues, however, are firmly convinced the problems with Police Scotland are largely down to an influx of former English officers, brought north into top jobs in the wake of the appointment of Stephen House.

    The feeling among my friend and his mates, who between them have hundreds of years of experience, is that there has been a Westminster-led attempt to bring the very different English style of policing to Scotland, this has caused culture shock and, senior Scottish officers, finding themselves side-lined by English-trained newcomers, are not exercising their right to remain in-post past the minimum time they are required to serve.

    He also tells me, the VAT question has also had a knock-on effect on operational matters. My mate is an arch-Tory, no friend of the SNP, but, he believes the main cause of the troubles within the Force are decisions made by Scottish Office civil servants, rather than SNP politicians.

  35. Robert Peffers

    @HandandShrimp says: 26 December, 2016 at 10:48 am:

    “I could believe that Ruth’s life is that dull, although I am surprised it wasn’t Willie Rennie.”

    Going by the way that Ruthie, Rennie and Kez collude in almost everything else to do with Scottish politics it very well may have been Willie Rennie’s thoughts originally.

    It just depends upon which of the three wooden headed puppets the Westminster master puppeteer picked up to make the Westminster propaganda pronouncement.

  36. RabMacPhoto

    louis.b.argyll wrote at on 26th December at 11.20am

    “These gutter types…”

    They’ve sunk so low surely sewer press would be more appropriate? They broke through the bottom of the barrel they’ve been scraping a long time ago.

  37. Robert Peffers

    @Les Wilson says: 26 December, 2016 at 10:59 am:

    ” … A desperate case of that virus, Yoonyism.”

    Should that not be YoonYawnism, Les?

  38. Macart

    A Mail regardless of which edition. Basically right wing, reactionary and never, ever, knowingly honest.

    As for those who read the Mail? Well they say you read the title which suits and reinforces your own world view really.

  39. Dr Craig Dalzell

    HandandShrimp beat me to the pocket calculator there.

    You could blame this on journalists copy/pasting press releases except, as mentioned, they went as far as writing an editorial too. A bare minimum of factchecking – something you could fit on a tweet – spikes this story.

    It isn’t even analysis at this point. Basic arithmetic.

  40. Arabs for Independence

    How many were recruited over same period?

    There were 17,245 full-time equivalent (FTE) police officers in Scotland on 30 September 2016.

    This is an increase of 1,011 FTE police officers (+6.2%) from the 16,234 FTE police officers recorded at 31 March 2007.

    Police officer numbers have increased by 3 FTE officers in the last quarter from 30 June 2016, and have decreased by 16 FTE officers (-0.1%) in the last year from 30 September 2015.


  41. Les Wilson

    Yea gods, just watched the Queens Xmas message for curiosity.

    The pomp and ceremony is astounding, what did all that stuff offer in a Xmas message other than show just how privileged the Royal class really is.
    The money spent on all this guff, would have been better spent on the poorest in society at such a time especially. Now, that would have meant something.


  42. Gary45%

    What’s a Ruth Davidson????
    A pointless nobody.
    Nobody cares.

  43. Sunniva

    I think Socrates makes a very significant point. I have heard similar tales from police at community council meetings, about the foreign and culturally unsuitable style of policing brought in by Stephen House, and the Englishing of the Scottish police force in general. A large number of the officers who attend our community council meetings as community police are English. There has been a cultural take over in recent years and it’s very concerning. Not new though – I first noticed English police appearing in the 1990s under the last Tory governments. I remember being stopped by officers for a tail light that had gone on my car. But it was the way they dealt with the incident that I thought was harassment. It was near midnight on a dark winter Sunday night. I was alone. They made me get in to the back of their car, where they proceeded to caution me. I wondered what the heck was the matter. When they told me it was a tail light I suppressed my laughter. Then I asked them if I could buy one off them (playing the daft lassie) and that floored them. I said ‘I thought you were trying to help me to be safe’. And that floored them too. The style of Scottish policing to that date wasn’t to terrify and intimidate for the sake of it and out of a power trip but to assist members of the public. I contemplated reporting them for harassment.

  44. Les Wilson

    Robert Peffers says:

    Ha Ha, yes that would have worked nicely to. Have a nice seasonal
    time Robert.

  45. Finnmacollie

    Maybe Ruthie should lighten up and have a mine pie, after all it is Christmas.

  46. Pete

    As Socrates has stated there is a big problem within Police Scotland and whose fault it is is open to debate.
    My son in law is a high ranking officer and can’t wait to retire as are lots of other officers.
    Morale is rock bottom with the force being riddled with initiative sapping political correctness.
    It is now much harder for rank and file officers to climb the ranks with the top echelons being filled with fast track graduates with little operational experience.
    I’m not especially blaming the current SG but the situation has been coming for many years and needs to be sorted out pronto.
    As to the VAT situation the SG were warned about the structure they were creating and, I’m afraid, the blame stays with them as they new at the outset what the position was.

  47. Scott

    Don’t forget the north British P&J they are running with this story as well.

    North east at forefront of regions losing ‘swathes’ of experienced police officers.
    They have a break down and over 1500 of them have more than 20 years service.

  48. Les Wilson

    Pete says:

    Well yes, they complied with the law as it was, however it does not justify the law been changed for Grammer schools in Yoonland to go Vat free. That was Nicola’s point, and a valid one.

    If the law can be passed to protect them, how is our Police force any different? In fact is it not even more important.
    Apparently not under a corrupt Tory government.

  49. Andrew Mclean

    Yet again the unionists prove they haven’t a clue about Scotland. They’ve nothing nada, bugger all, absolutely hopeless. A waste of space the lot of them.
    This is proof that the lack of news is news.

    Actually running a stupid story about how employees retire at their retirement age? Really is that all the have, oh and Ruth this year you have been an absolute disgrace, you take money from the taxpayers on the promise that you are a effective professional politician, and your sole contribution was to ride a beast in some drug induced excuse for a political campaign.

    Willie is a absolute joke, Kezia is trying her best, with the limited talent she has, and Harvey your card is marked, let’s see how you react when one of your MSP’s is being attacked next year by the unionists!

  50. Free Scotland

    Talking of job-related matters, have you seen this?

  51. gordoz

    The issues of peoples wishing to retire early are not purely limited to the Police & Fire in Scotland.

    Lets nail that one; ask the folks in Universities and Teaching and other industries.

    Regardless of the SG position. They are extremely limited in what they can really do within the ‘peoples’ settled will of that silent & aged majority. So lets nail that one.

    Gordon Brown & Tom Hunters silent majority can moan about this till the cows come home. This most devolved and powerful regional parliament in the World (Aye sure) will be ham strung till ‘Scotland the feart’ grows and evolves back to normal nationhood status.

    The world awaits for the ‘swithering brits’ in Scotland to realise there is nothing in Brexit for the North of Hadrians wall & the US holds no endless love for the UK.

    The press will pursue this line on behalf of WM but not Scotland and that’s the whole point.

  52. scotspine

    Regards the N East and former Grampian Police.

    After Police Scotland came in to being, Westminster forced swinging pension changes on to Police and increased qualifying service from 30 years to 35.

    The Scots Govt (read SNP) tried to put in place the means to mitigate these changes. That was stamped on by Westminster (read Tories, The UK Treasury and the then Home Sec. T. May)

    This occurred just before the oil industry crash, when there were still plenty of jobs going.

    Consequently, mid service cops, who were then facing working more years for a significantly less pension jumped to the Oil Industry.

    Indeed, an in joke dubbed one Oil Company (Petrofac) as Legacy Grampian.

  53. TYRAN

    The Tory’s don’t want people to retire!

    I seem to remember something similar like this a few years ago. It’s a rehash / trick.

  54. Les Wilson

    Ruth should get a really rough ride over this, she has more heads than a hydra, each talking a different way.

  55. gordoz

    Press, TV, Big business, Lab/Tory/Lib Dems –

    Coordination – its a wonderful thing

  56. Mik Johnstone

    dear god…. someone get that poor woman a mince pie, maybe it’ll shut her up for a while …. merry jingle bollocks people, and a’ the best for 2017 …

  57. galamcennalath

    “Police Scotland’s 40,000 years of lost experience

    ….since April 2013, there have been 1426 police men and women leave the force whose length of service spans between 26 and 30 years.”

    Let’s call that 400 a year retiring. Wiki says “17,261 Full-time Officers”

    Seems normal and expected.

    A lesson on how to create a baseless negative story. A perfect example of false news.

  58. Norman Stewart

    HandandShrimp No research.

    0-2 probationary period so 310 failed to make the grade.
    26-30 main retirement age group so 1426 retired.
    No mention of people leaving due to injury or sickness. Stress alone in England accounts for 15% of absentees some of whom will not come back to work. No mention of how many transferred out of police Scotland to other UK police forces, once you get to a certain level in the police you have to move forces to go up the ranks, that will help account for the 99 over 30 years.And so on.

  59. Thepnr

    Education in Scotland FAILING!

    NHS in Scotland FAILING!

    Policing in Scotland FAILING


    The number of students attending University from the poorest 20% is UP and for students in Scotland there are still no fees. Work is underway to increase these numbers. When I was a boy barely anyone from the poorest background attended University. That’s just the way it was. Not now.

    “The Scottish government said university access for students from poorer areas was up by 29% since it came to power.”

    The NHS in Scotland has a 95% target for A&E treatment, the same in England, Scotland averages around 94% meeting the target the English NHS around 85% in the past year.

    “In October 2016, 93.9 per cent of patients waited less than 4 hours.”

    And in England:

    “So far in 2016, 10.4% of all patients – and 15.6% of patients in major departments – have spent more than 4 hours in A&E. An average of 2,700 more people each day waited for 4+ hours than in 2015. The total number of people who have waited for 4+ hours has risen by 67% in one year.”…/NHSE_mandate_16-17_22_Jan.pdf

    Scottish police numbers are up over 6% since 2007, English police numbers between 2007 and 2015 have dropped by 11%.

    That’s the best they’ve got. Just lies, nothing to see here. Move on. The media reporting this crap are collaborators in state propaganda to keep the Scots (yes you) subjugated.

    Ignore their drivel, search for the truth.

  60. galamcennalath

    The pro Indy camp / Yesser must never stoop to the level of the Yoons. We don’t need to. By being positive and sticking to facts, we will win. By being negative and deceitful, the Yoons show they are already losing,

    Having said all that …. just imagine the fun it would be to generate completely false news about the Union and its adherents! Pick a story, any story really, then spin and headline it into UKBaaad!

    Then watch it propagate across the interwebbie. The papers and BBC would ignore it, of course.

    Alas we shouldn’t, therein would lie the road to defeat. Just look at the state of Yoonery as it approaches 2017!

  61. handclapping

    Anent the VAT, it wouldn’t matter if we were independent as it would be money out of one hand and into the other.

    And of course when we actually get the powers of the most powerful devolved Parliament in the World (TM fluffy) we will be assigned half of it. Ho, ho, ho.

  62. Fred

    Blaming The SG for the VAT situation is nonsense, this didn’t come down the mountain carved on a stone tablet. Change this “pronto!” The only force paying VAT is a disgrace, time we were out of this shite union!

  63. Robert Peffers

    @Finnmacollie says: 26 December, 2016 at 11:58 am:

    “Maybe Ruthie should lighten up and have a mine pie, after all it is Christmas.”

    Fir guidness sake dinna gie her ony mair mince.

    She blethers mair nor enuch mince withoot feeding her ony mair.

  64. SOG

    Down here in the South of England the statistics must be the same, or worse. Theresa May’s years as Home Sec left the Police at the sharp end feeling undervalued and underpaid. Being short-staffed leaves the rest working more hours and more rest days to cover, and it’s not going to get better.

    Will someone please tell Ruth that, if she’s going to admit that there’s a nationwide problem, it’s down to her boss.

  65. heedtracker

    Todays front page Times banner headline, is probably not that much of surprise to YES voters,

    “Use Brexit to steal UK trade, says Trump aid,” and “Commerce chief urges rivals to exploit confusion.”

    As their grip round Scotland’s throat tightens by the tory day.

  66. Jack Collatin

    I doubt that they even contacted Davidson. She will have given carte blanche to Red Blue and Yellow Tory editors to attribute meaning less soundbites to any SNP Bad propaganda lies.
    Trains: ‘The Scottish travelling public are outraged at:-
    (a) cancellations; (b) ticket price rises; (c) the wrong kind of snow.
    Education: ‘The SNP’s record on (a) closing the Education Attainment Gap; (b)raising literary and numeracy standards; (c) recruiting teachers; is abysmal.’
    And so on.
    Who needs a Ruth Wullie or Kezia when building a completely false Police Terrible pack of lies?
    The MSM don’t really need the actual opinions of any of the Third Division Branch Managers.
    Just as we don’t even need to know of their very existence. They contribute nothing to Scotland .
    £1200 a week and your kicks for free. Money For Nothing.

  67. Legerwood

    Free Scotland 12.12 pm

    More on job related matters:

    Then of course there is the EU’s Marine Energy Research Centre in Orkney. What will happen to that post-Brexit?

    Certainly a lot more newsworthy than ‘policemen have retired’.

    Given the news from down south about cancelled operations I expect the BBC, or similar, are putting in FoI requests about cancelled ops up here. When news such as this breaks down south the MSM try to get similar stories up here – or spin stories to make them sound similar.

  68. Clapper57

    Try as they may to deflect, and they all will, again and again and again , NOTHING but NOTHING can deflect from BREXIT.

    The potential catastrophic consequences of BREXIT will far exceed any SNPBAD spin the Tory/Lab/LibDem aka the Unionist Political alliance party generate .

    They can choose to run with their SNPBAD stories, and they will for sure , but they cannot hide from the reality that is BREXIT ……………and 2017 and beyond is where the REAL shit will get ever so REAL.

    There will be nowhere for them to hide then but it will be fun watching them all try to run away from the shit that is BREXIT will it not.

    Ruth needs to remember it was HER party that is responsible for BREXIT and thus SHE needs to take some responsibility (She won’t though) …..and no amount of SNPBAD deflection can deny that fact. It is therefore sweetly ironic is it not that the party who state they are the ONLY ones who defend the Union should ultimately be the ones who destroy it Wahahahha……..and this people is the REAL shit of BREXIT.

  69. Breeks

    Hmmm. Quite concerning what Socrates and Sunniva are saying.

    Call me paranoid, but why would Police Scotland be having its top echelons filled with English officers? I find that rather sinister, as if it might be preparation for civil unrest in Scotland where Westminster needs “friends” in strategic places.

    I’m thinking about events like Freedom Square and the misrepresentation of what happened in the papers. Apply similar manipulation/ interference to Police strategy for handling and commenting on such incidents, and it all takes on a very sinister perspective, and alarming potential,

    The VAT issue is a flat out disgrace.

  70. heedtracker

    Fred says:
    26 December, 2016 at 12:35 pm
    Blaming The SG for the VAT situation is nonsense, this didn’t come down the mountain carved on a stone tablet. Change this “pronto!” The only force paying VAT is a disgrace, time we were out of this shite union!

    SNP were warned repeatedly by the Treasury, if they centralised Police Scotland, they would lose local authority control VAT exemption. Treasury were adamant throughout the process of centralisation and made sure understood the £25 million VAT charge.

    Its really up to Scots voters what to make of it all and how its spun by our tory BBC media led chums.

  71. Robert Peffers

    @Pete says: 26 December, 2016 at 12:00 pm:

    ” … As to the VAT situation the SG were warned about the structure they were creating and, I’m afraid, the blame stays with them as they new at the outset what the position was.”

    So, pete, you subscribe to the view that because the Westminster Mafia establishment send out a diktat to their subservient English owned dominion of Scotland that it is the Scottish government’s fault for NOT agreeing with Westminster diktats?

    Thank you for endorsing the views of what is now a majority of Scots voters for complete Scottish independence from Westminster.

    The United Kingdom is legally exactly that – a united KINGDOM composed of only the two British KINGDOMS extant in 1706/7. The two KINGDOMS were/are equally sovereign.

    So perhaps you could explain to us all just how Westminster can legally now divide up the bipartite United KINGDOM, along the lines of four unequal countries with Westminster as the Parliament of the Country of England as the master race legislating for the Country of England, using English law and funding only the country of England directly as, The United KINGDOM while Westminster decides the level of Block Grants it graciously hands down to the other three countries and then regulates those block grants further by use of Barnett Consequentials.

    This illegal corrupt system was not good enough for Westminster so they illegally introduce the EVEL system in order to prevent the other three countries that The country of England’s parliament graciously devolved the minimum of the country of England’s sovereign powers to from interfering in the Westminster Country of England’s English only matters.

    No, Pete, I do not expect you to answer those questions for your kind never do. You are all quite content to suffer happily the diktats of the Westminster Establishment without question and will always remain good little subservient underlings to your masters in Westminster.

    You, and the Westminster Establishment, are utterly rotten to the core and neither of you can even begin to justify the many, many breeches of the Treaty of Union that began from day one of this utterly corrupt United Kingdom

  72. scotspine

    Re VAT and The Police.

    I believe that for all intents and purposes the PSNI is a “National” Police Service. Does it pay VAT to UK Treasury?

  73. Arbroath1320

    WOW 3,000 officers have left Police Scotland. Bloody hell we must really be in a bad way then, I mean what with the lowest crime figures in decades, murders in decades etc. No wonder they are all leaving Police Scotland they must be bored out of their minds. 😀

    As for clueless Ruth best she gets a new photo op. pdq her insanity level is reaching crisis point. Failing that can someone find a leetle tankette for her to command, buffalo to ride, fish to kiss, set of bagpipes to make a gawd awful noise on or perhaps just a set of spoons for her to ‘play. Thanks awfully. 🙂

  74. Hamish100

    Davidson works for the English Laws for English people government. As does Mundell and all the tory rest. I’m also for English Laws for English people — once they stop interfering in Scots law. Then we can work as 2 equal nations under the UN.

  75. Ken500

    The Police do not what to put in £100 a week/month into their pension fund – UK Gov policy. The Scottish Gov wanted to help but Westminster refused.

    The Police should not be policing Orange Marches. Or putting people in cells overnight on ‘charges’ which cannot come to Court. A waste of money. The Police could get a weekend off.

  76. Hamish100

    To Peter re vat and Police Scotland. There is a way forward. Inland revenue stop being political and enforce vat payment. How easy was that.
    After all the tories and labour– remember co-conspiritors Brown and Darling paID off the criminal banks without a wimper– AND OUR MONEY

  77. heedtracker

    Royals what never get involved, cost hundreds of millions a year in police protection, queen voted Leave,

    “Speaking to BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, Kuenssberg revealed she had been told something similar but decided not to report it because it came from a single source. The BBC generally requires a story to be double-sourced before it can run.”

    That “generally” is pretty good. Graun also disappearing behind Murdochian pay wall, in stages.

    Hurry up and go rancid:D

  78. Sunniva

    Breeks, I would hate to be paranoid too, but I think there needs to be positive discrimination by whoever interviews and selects top police in Scotland. I think they should have to have knowledge of policing in Scotland, Scottish society, and Scottish police culture and priorities, not just simply experience of heading a large force. House was ex-Met, and was ex-Strathclyde police as well which had also absorbed a high number of ex-Met high heid yins. It gives the lie though to the unionists’ constant bleat of the SNP SG’s centralisation and ‘political control’ over the police, because from where I’m standing control of the police via the selection of top police officers and new officers recruited by them to join the force in Scotland is not controlled by the SNP and is not running to a Scottish agenda.

    One of the consequences of House’s brief rein was that in Edinburgh he dissolved all the house-breaking teams (house-breaking is the most common crime in Edinburgh) with the result that house-breaking crime rocketed and there were fewer culprits caught. Officers were told they had to prepare for knife crime (low in Edinburgh) and riots (low in Edinburgh) and terrorism (low in Edinburgh) and were to form large teams from a wider area of officers who did not necessarily know one another. The police officers we spoke to all were moaning about this. But I believe that since House left and house-breaking rocketed, the house-breaking teams have since re-formed.

    But it just goes to show that he was the wrong man for the job if he thought that metropolitan police strategies were applicable to Edinburgh and across Scotland. Why was somebody chosen who had little aporeciation of the fact that Scotland was highly diverse in terms of the crime demographic and other considerations?

    Where were the Scottish Government?

  79. Sunniva

    Scotspine, no, I believe PSNI does not pay VAT despite being a ‘national’ force.

  80. Ken500

    2000 have retired. 1000 have left. 300 a year. How many left a year before Police Scotland was formed?

    There are vacancies in the NE. Same as teachers. Posts to fill. No key houses?

  81. Ken500

    Labour/Unionists appointed House. To cover up their crime. GCC.

  82. Robert Peffers

    @scotspine says: 26 December, 2016 at 1:14 pm:

    “I believe that for all intents and purposes the PSNI is a “National” Police Service. Does it pay VAT to UK Treasury”

    Ah! scotspine – you miss the obvious out that the Westminster Establishment has at its fingertips.

    They always exploit to the full the anomalies on what are countries and what are kingdoms and they manipulate the confusion in people’s minds about this to the full and always to favour the Westminster Establishments established views.

    The difference, in truth, is that Scotland is both a country and a kingdom while England is also both a country but as a kingdom it contains, as integral parts, the two countries that the Kingdom of England annexed long before the Treaty of Union that formed the United Kingdom.

    Thus the Scottish Police are both a unified country force and also a partner kingdom unified force. However, in Wales, N. Ireland and the country of England their unified police forces are only country wide but not English Kingdom wide.

    This is the same kind of thinking exploited in order to relegate the Kingdom of Scotland to being just another country annexed by the Country/Kingdom of England in order to justify the devolution of England’s sovereign powers to subservient countries annexed by the kingdom of England.

    In essence Westminster exploits the confusion in voter’s minds as to what the United Kingdom actually legally is.

    What is legally a bipartite union of kingdoms is actually now being run as Westminster, while still calling itself the United Kingdom Parliament, being the Parliament of the country of England now devolving a few useless English powers to the full Kingdom of Scotland while treating Scotland just as it treats the two actual two Kingdom of England’s pre-Union annexed countries.

    Yet at no time has the Kingdom of England ever legally annexed the Kingdom or country of Scotland as an integral part of England. Which, if you think about it, was the reason for a Treaty of Union in the first place.

    If The Kingdom of Scotland had already been annexed by the Kingdom of England, (and they insinuate wrongly that it was in 1603), then there would have been no need for a Treaty of Union to form a United Kingdom in 1706/7 as there would already have been a United Kingdom.

    However the mental perceptions have been so thoroughly brainwashed into Scottish minds that even long committed independence supporters fail to see the glaringly obvious anomalies now extant in the Westminster setup.

    What is legally a two partner Kingdom of two equally sovereign Kingdom’s government is now being run as a country of England Government with three unequal subservient countries with their devolved parliaments granted English country government powers and ruled over by the, all powerful, parliament of England government.

    It really is that simple and there is nothing that legally justifies this system other than a Westminster Establishment claim of, “Because we say so”.

  83. Sunniva

    Heedtracker, I’ve heard that too, that the SG were warned that centralisation would mean that the police would lose local authority VAT exemption. I have a pal who works with the council in Edinburgh in the department reclaiming their VAT. She said her unit repeatedly warned SG about this and advised them of a solution which would involve the local council but the SG said, ‘No, Treasury won’t do that’ and declined.

  84. Artyhetty


    Sorry so soon, but only just heard about the Russian plane downed in the Black Sea. 92, dead, on way to Syria, included Military ensemble, high profile humaitarian worker and several Russian journalists. Weather good, no distress calls. Make of that what you will.

    2016, is still looking like a git of a year on a global scale.

  85. yesindyref2

    Last night? You mean on Christmas Day Ruth Davidson had nothing better to do with her life than offer vacuous quotes to justify meaningless non-stories in the Daily Mail?

    I saw a story in the Herald about this and didn’t even bother reading it, past the point where Davidson was having such a great Christmast she had to do an anti-SNP charade. Poor thing, I seriously think we need to feel sorry for her.

    Fair enough Torrance’s usual mono-directional “I read a book about X and it fits the SNP and I’ll make it do it”, but Davidson? Wow.

  86. Ken500

    Only 300 have left within the three years since recruited under Police Scotland. The going rate for before Police Scotland was formed. 250 a year. i.e. less per average have left since Police Scotland was formed. More Police Officers. 1000 more maintained than 2007 when SNP came to prominence. Another bull story.

    Police in Scotland should be informed in Scottish Law. They should have training in ‘additional needs’. Too many by proportion of people with additional needs are in prison. Not getting enough support in society. Drug/drink addicts sound be given proper ‘total abstinence’ counselling rehab. Cheaper and more affective than prison. Most crime is committed while under the influence of drink/drugs. Violent crime by (16) 18-24 year old males. Against each other. Crime is a gender issue.

  87. Graf Midgehunter

    Apart from the fact that Roothie and the Mail are just mouthing off another facile attempt to try and get any mud (sewage) to stick, there is as Soccerknees MacSporran said, another side to the tale.

    As a big fan of NS and the way she’s driving forward to an Indy settlement once and for all, outwitting May/WM all the time, I still don’t get why the Scot.Gov. lacks so much self-confidence in broaching general governing problems and implementing ways to solve them. E.g. as above – Police Scotland.

    If we are a country, Scotland, then we need Scottish solutions to Scottish problems. Is anyone going to tell me that we don’t have senior police officers who are capable of taking on the top jobs of Police Chief and the senior management? Why does our Scot.Gov. “import” English officers? Do we lack the confidence to stand up on our hind legs and say “Scotland first”

    It’s the same with constitutional issues, A.o.Union, Sovereignity, founding partners, Scot. Parl., broadcasting, energy, etc, etc.

    We meekly accept what the yoonies say when they come up with their BS in interviews. Instead we should be cracking the whip.

    Derek McKay showed how it should be done..!

    Self confidence and use those words: WE WANT…
    Not what you’re willing to give us.

    AND while I’m at it, why is the SNP Website so pathetically bad? It’s still a mass of yellow sauce and no invitation to stop more than a few seconds. If the SNP are building up a “war chest” for the up coming Indy2 🙂 then spend something on getting a decent website together.

    I don’t expect perfection but at a bare minimum it should be at least as good as the new “Business for Scotland” website.

    *Developed by Untangled Web.*

  88. Les Wilson

    Despite what Nicola said about the £25 mil tax issue, it still shows how the Tories changed the law at will, to allow Grammar schools to be VAT exempt. If they are now exempt, the must have previously paid VAT.

    As she rightly pointed out if they can do that for Grammar schools, just why can they not exempt an important thing like Police Scotland?

    No one seems to be addressing this issue on here, I cannot understand why not. If I am correct (I am sure someone will tell me if not) This situation also applies to the Scottish fire brigade. A double whammy for Westminster.
    Just another soaking from corrupt Westminster,yet grammar schools…..

  89. heedtracker

    Sunniva says:

    She said her unit repeatedly warned SG about this and advised them of a solution which would involve the local council but the SG said, ‘No, Treasury won’t do that’ and declined.”

    What was their solution though?

    I got some VAT info via toryboy yoon of the year 2016, Kevrage.

    well via dear Kevrage and on to another tory, who was as comprehensive as a tory can get. He says that SNP were repeatedly told, no VAT deal if you centralise. Its Treasury rules. I think he did a FOI to look at the Treasury coms and the ruling handed to Scots gov, which cited stuff like, its against the Treasury rules, British Transport Police also do not get VAT relief, like what centralised Scottish Police will now have to pay.

    Its gets a bit hard to understand quite quickly though, as Kevrage’s tory blogster also notes that Northern Irish police get a VAT exemption and they are clearly centralised.

    Its all in the Treasury rules.

    Please Sir, who interprets Treasury rules?
    Please Sir, who writes Treasury rules?

    You voted NO, Silence! etc UKOK ect.

  90. Grouse Beater

    Scottish police officers taking retirement is a crisis?

    From my notes for car essay:

    “The number of full-time traffic police operating in England and Wales was cut by almost a third from 2010.

    Officer numbers fell from 5,327 to 3,742 recorded in 2015. In addition, 36 of the 42 English and Welsh forces stated they had too few staff to handle an increase in the number of road laws they’re required to police.

    For example, new lane hogging and tailgating offences were introduced, along with roadside drug-driving tests, and changes to speed limits for HGVs. Also in-car smoking ban was introduced.

    West Midlands force has seen the most dramatic fall in full-time police, down from 351 to 115, while the City of London Police no longer operates an independent traffic unit at all, due to budget limitations.”

  91. Fred

    Anent Polis VAT, half of Scotland’s police were already in a Strathclyde which had swallowed up several forces already to save money, so how “Local” is that? The Northern Ireland force doesn’t pay VAT? & in addition Police Scotland, which pays VAT, is smaller than English forces which do not pay VAT. It’s complete nonsense. What happened to “Pooling & Sharing?” We’re not talking about shillings here, the single-force was designed to save money, avoid repetition & share resources.

  92. Sunniva

    Heedtracker, I didn’t quite follow what my pal was saying, about her solution, to circumvent police Scotland VAT, but the gist of it was that financial links with local authority would be somehow maintained. It’s one of the things I want to follow up with her when I next see her. She seemed to be suggesting that the SG had not wanted to maintain finance links with local government for political reasons.

    I.e., most local authorities are not SNP run.

    I think the SG have really boobed here, fallen into a trap of some sort, but I can’t seem to get to the bottom of it and who was to blame. Either they were misled by the Treasury or they were inept.

    One thing that is suspicious is that the SNP keep so quiet about this issue. If it is so fricking unfair, why aren’t they making political capital out of it?

    I can’t get out of my mind a thing a pal said to me about Ireland after independence, that the civil service remained in the hands of unionists for decades afterwards and that was one thing that caused Ireland to struggle economically, and I wonder if the same is happenning here?

  93. yesindyref2

    The Queen’s alternative speech was not wldely reported in the Mail, but I have managed to obtain a transcript of it, and for those of you unfortunate enough to have missed it on Christamas Day, this is roughly what her Crimbo message to us in Scotland was.

    The Queen pointed out how in the 2016 Olympics, there were 4 gold, 12 silver and 2 bronze medal winners from Scotland, and how in 2012 there were 7 gold, 4 silver and 3 bronze, implying that we really should think of going it alone in the world as we’re well able in Scotland, and in fact might be able to do even better.

    She said they’re an inspiration and we should all take a deep breath of good Scottish air, and consider Mother Theresa who once said: “Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love“.

    She invited all independence supporters to lunch in Holyrood Park, with entertainment to be provided by various members of the Royal family, all of whom are expected to do a turn, and said that Nicola Sturgeon was a great inspiration to us all, she wished the rest of the UK had someone half as good.

    She then pointed out how inclusive Scotland is, with not just one religion or religious belief, but many, and indeed none, and then wished us all a very happy Christmas.

    This was not widely reported in the media.

  94. galamcennalath

    Scotsman, “Police Scotland losing ‘swathes’ of experienced cops, Tories claim”

    Herald, “Police Scotland losing ‘swathes’ of experienced officers, Tories warn”

    Plagiarism, conspiracy, or just that bull shit can take on a life of its own?

    The REAL news in all this is … how and why does such fake news stand?

  95. Les Wilson

    yesindyref2 says:

    I saw it on the Record website, video.
    I commented on the fortune spent on the guff.

  96. Jack Collatin

    Even during the so called period of good will these nasty little peddlers of lies, lies designed to keep Scotland enslaved, in poverty, and subjugated by our neighbour to the South, continue unabated.
    Get a fucking grip, ye Dead Tree Scrollers.
    You are selling your country out for money, and consigning hundreds and thousands of your fellow Scots citizens to early deaths, deprivation, poverty, and a into continuing downward spiral of despair and hopelessness.
    We, the People, shall no longer stand by and let this treachery continue.
    Davidson, Dugdale, and Rennie, and their miserable little Unionist crews are anti Scottish, and like the peddlers of lies in paper and over the airwaves, should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
    No more. We’ve had a belly full.
    If Scotland is such a shit heap fuck off out of here.
    We shall no longer be serfs , forelock tuggers, in our own country. WE are not an English Colony.
    The time has come. The time is now.

  97. Ken500

    How much does Police Scotland formation save. £1Billion? More than the VAT. A tax on ‘loss leading’ drink would save even more.

  98. velofello

    Hi all, If you you’ve just skimmed thro’ Robert Peffers response to scotspine (at 1.14), I recommend a second read as he describes the core policy of Perfidious Albion – division and confusion.

    Concerning the police ,doesn’t Denmark have a single police force? And Denmark of similar population to Scotland.Performs OK?

    Concerning Anglicisation of the police, didn’t Alistair Gray express a similar concern over the Arts in Scotland?

    Concerning Wee Ruthie, suggest you read Andrew Tickell’s article in the National, Dec 21st on Ruthie’s shapeshifting.

    Shapeshifting? You need to get on to USA stuff on U-Tube – creepy.

  99. heedtracker

    Sunniva says:
    26 December, 2016 at 2:50 pm
    Heedtracker, I didn’t quite follow what my pal was saying, about her solution,

    You just invented her for the sake of it, you mean.

    That’s fine, there’s all kinds of info free unionist stuff floating around. Comparing Ireland a hundred years ago, to 21st century Scotland, is a hoot, a hoot n half, a very good UKOK hoot.

    You nearly had me Sunniva, nearly.

  100. Robert Peffers

    @Les Wilson says: 26 December, 2016 at 2:23

    ” … No one seems to be addressing this issue on here, I cannot understand why not.”

    I suppose, Les, and it is just my own supposition, that it depends upon what the main priorities and main aims are.

    As always, in such matters, it depends upon what the eventual aims are how you go about achieving those aims.

    In these instances I see there being two quite different ultimate aims. If the main aim is just to get a short term gain for Scotland by forcing/persuading the Westminster Establishment to grant Scotland a better financial deal then you go at them, hammer and tongs just to get that better short term financial deal for Scotland.

    However, if your long term aims are to get shot of Westminster rule once and for all then it will be counter productive to slowly, for short term gain, remove these bones of contention.

    By doing so you only reinforce the Westminster claims of Scotland being, “Better together”, in a union where Scotland is now treated not as a fully sovereign partner kingdom in the bipartite United Kingdom but as just one more English annexed country that England has defeated and won under the laws of Divine Right of Kings that was not in force in the Kingdom of England after the English Glorious Revolution of 1688.

    It is, after all, those who cling to the Westminster, “Better Together”, mantra who prevent a majority of Scottish voters from clamouring for independence in order to run things our own way and not be always subservient to Westminster and thus forever forelock tugging supplicants to the Westminster Establishment that has forever stacked the deck against their Scottish partner. Stacked it to such an extent that we are being treated as just one more part of England’s previously annexed countries.

    We are not just another previously annexed to England country but are an equally sovereign partner Kingdom of the, (now so called), United Kingdom.

    Either we are still a fully equal co-partner in this corrupt union or we are not.

    We are now being treated as an English annexed country when it suits Westminster but never now treated as a fully sovereign partner Kingdom in the bipartite United Kingdom.

    For example – why are we in the Kingdom of Scotland, subjected to the United Kingdom’s Supreme Court that treats us as, at best, a junior partner but mainly as an English dominion. In effect the Supreme Court is the Supreme Court of England because the only parliament of the country of England resides at Westminster. There is no Parliament of England except Westminster.

    My view is that the Westminster Parliament, and my view is reinforced by the Westminster commissioned paper that Mundell claims states,

    “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”

    The obvious question we should all be asking be answered by every Yoon at every opportunity is, “Are we a fully equally sovereign partner kingdom in this so called United Kingdom or are we not”. We should also demand that the answer giver is restricted to either yes or no. No ifs no buts and no may bes.

    If we are a fully sovereign partner then why is the United Kingdom treating us as if we are not by dividing up the UK along country lines but with Westminster the Parliament of England?

  101. galamcennalath

    Almost 2017 and there are now only five aspects to the UK and it’s Union left ….

    The monarchy
    The military
    Pensions and benefits
    The BBC

    … though you could say WM no longer represents UK, because not so long ago the list would also have included UK wide political parties. At a WM level, government and opposition only really represent England & Wales. WM still wields power of war, peace and taxes, but only in a dictatorial sense.

    For news, comment, and information the BBC is tottering with half of Scots having lost faith, even while most still watch entertainment.

    Back further and there were nationalised industries delivering essential services, employing many, and tying the UK together. Powerful UK wide trade unions. Shops full of UK focused goods with ‘foreign stuff’ the exception. All gone.

    Looking at it like that, the centralised UK hold on Scotland is hanging on only by fingernails!

  102. Grendel

    There being no National today I bought an Edinburgh Evening News. I wish I hadn’t bothered. The same story there, given the best part of a page coverage, and anyone with an ounce of critical analysis would see right through it.
    As Alex Harvey said; “There’s no such thing as a dirty book, it’s just the way you read it…” and this is an article cobbled from the barest of material.
    And I quote: “Police Scotland has lost more than 40,000 years of experience as over 3,000 long-serving officers left the single force since it’s inception”. It quotes the already laughable and discredited October 2015 survey which found a third of the organisation planned to leave in the next three years.

    Let’s be honest, the biggest obstacle to retaining long service police officers is their extremely generous pension package, which has been the biggest reason for officers leaving for many years and will remain so for many years to come.

  103. Grendel

    On the subject of the Edinburgh Evening News, Dr Scott Arthur has a letter published where he says that Project Fear has been reborn… and it’s all the SNP’s fault.
    Dr Scott thinks pretty much that on any subject.

  104. gus1940

    Robert Peffers @ 3.25

    The question in Robert’s penultimate para would be a good one for Angus Robertson at the first PMQs after the Xmas recess.

    It would be interesting to see how Maggie May handled it.

  105. Les Wilson

    Robert Peffers says: Well you are right but my post was to highlight the injustices that are inflicted upon us, and how they get away with it, and of course a myriad of others are long in place. Something most of us know already.

  106. Legerwood

    Police Scotland and VAT. There have been reports that the reason that Police Scotland is not exempt from paying vat is the absence of the local connection particularly the element of local funding that existed when there were the individual police forces.

    This begs the question with regards to the National Crime Agency.

    Does the National Crime Agency pay VAT? It is a UK wide agency. From its web site:
    “”We lead our own operations, develop and disseminate intelligence to partners, support and coordinate national and international activity, recover assets and prevent and disrupt criminal activity. We also provide specialist operational capabilities such as offender profiling and serious crime analysis to support police and partners in law enforcement.

    We operate across the UK, respecting the devolution of policing in Scotland and Northern Ireland.””

  107. defo

    Have a swatch at this, and count how many senior officers started out outside Scotland. esp. at the Met.
    You might need to get the Bacofoil ready. 😉

  108. heedtracker

    Sunniva says:

    Saw this and thought of you!

    “The 77th is being named in tribute to the Chindits, a British guerrilla force created during the Second World War and led by Maj Gen Orde Wingate. The Chindits would use unconventional and sometimes controversial tactics to cause chaos within the Japanese army and in turn undermine the confidence of its troops.”

    That’s for you, and your special friend in Embro council, don’t let it undermine your confidence though:D

  109. gus1940

    Ken500 @ 2.16

    Re criticism of The SNP Web Site can I sugggest that Ken and anybody else dissatified with it submit draft specs. for an improved site for consideration and possible consolidation into a new revised web site which satisfies their requirements.

  110. gus1940

    Sorry – Ken500 in my comment above should read Graf midgehunter.

  111. Lochside

    Re. Police Scotland, apart from the English head of Police Scotland , of the two chief constables, Rose Fitzpatrick is English and ex-met; and out of the nine deputy chiefs listed, only four are Scots ( one is ex Met), three are English and two are Northern Irish. Two of the nine are or have been under suspension for dishonesty (Mawson and Maugher) both are English.
    Not a great vision of Scotland’s national police force. Yet again dominated by RUK leaders, like many of our Universities etc. No wonder many cops feel disallusioned.

  112. Dan Huil

    It’s the Daily “Zinoviev Letter” Mail, what did we expect?! When the current monarch kicks the gold-plated bucket we can expect the dm and britnat others to blame the pro-indy separatists for giving the queen sleepless nights of health-destroying worry.

  113. Andy-B

    “Last night, Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson said: ‘Officers seem to be leaving Police Scotland in their droves.’”

    Ruth, then finished off with Bah Humbug!

  114. defo

    This guy stood out in particular, being the only one without an accompanying picture.

    Johnny ‘the spook’ Gwynne.

    I’m sure he’s a lovely guy. (So no need for me to go on any more lists.)

  115. Patrick Roden

    Thepnr says:
    “This bullshit makes me wonder if Alan Roden the former Daily Mail political editor and now Scottish Labour communications director is moonlighting for the Tories?”

    Isn’t it Magnus Gardham the political editor at the Herald who is working for the Tories?
    They slipped him in by employing him as a press secretary at the Scottish Office, but he works for the UK government, ie the Tory Party.

  116. Dr Jim

    What were you thinking about on Christmas day ? The celebration of the birth of Jesus perhaps, children and presents, lovely food, maybe goodwill to all

    In WW2 they said the Germans were the bad guys but they also said they couldn’t have been all that bad because they took Christmas day off from the fighting

    Ruth Davidsons Tory sense of entitlement hate and jealousy 365 days a year along with her pals in the Daily Mail and Express suggests a level of nastiness even Adolph Hitler couldn’t brainwash folk into

    So what does that say about Ruth Davidson?

  117. Dan Huil

    Keep boycotting the britnat media. Slowly, surely, britnat influence wanes.

  118. Robert Peffers

    @galamcennalath says: 26 December, 2016 at 3:27 pm:

    Almost 2017 and there are now only five aspects to the UK and it’s Union left ….
    The monarchy
    The military
    Pensions and benefits
    The BBC

    Almost but not quite, galamcennalath. This is what I always have described as, “The Westminster Establishment”, but with the additions of The top hierarchies of the Civil Service, Police Services, Education, Security Services, Arts, The C of E, The City and the MSM.

    I would suggest, but it is only my own opinion, that now the hierarchy of the major Trade Unions and Business Associations, (like the CBI and even the Chambers of Commerce), may be included. I except from that list Scotland’s FSB.

  119. Douglass McGlashan

    It all does tie up at davidson’s door as does the garbage from dugdale in the rancord,

    Policy appears to be the drip, drip and more dripping of negative invented stories to hurt the SNP.

    Sadly others including bbc and famous celebrity unionists without an ounce of feeling for Scots or Scotland perpetuate the story so the incesnt drip never stops. When labour and liberals were messing up big time on single every policy I never saw any scrutiny.

    An oft reapeted statement is “at the end of the day”, unionist press are what they are, truely the scum of the eart on viagra with horns!.

    Dismiss them, they are pond life!

  120. Sunniva

    Heedtracker, no, I didn’t invent my pal who works with the council doing their VAT. I just couldn’t follow the technicality of what she was saying. But I will try again when I see her next.

    And don’t you ever insinuate I am a unionist. I’ve voted for independence for nearly fifty years!

    But there is something just not right about this police Scotland VAT business. And I don’t know who is to blame. But if it is Westminster then SG should be making much more fuss about it.

    There’s a lot we could do with £18 million a year instead of it going back to the Treasury in VAT.

  121. Gary45%

    Ruthie Jong Un’s main problem is, to raise your head above the parapet, you must have the sense, integrity ,knowledge and ability to take on your opposition.
    Sadly for Ruthie she has none of the above, as she just comes across as a ill-informed mouth piece for the Westminster establishment.
    Roll on 2017 and watch the daily “Ruthie making an arse of herself show”, but don’t tell the Westminster Tories, as she is helping the Indy cause by simply being Ruthie.

  122. Stu Mac


    Why make up UKBAAAD stories when the truth will give you plenty to spread around?

  123. yesindyref2

    The SNP could do worse than copy BfS, the Scottish Conservatives, LibDems, Scottish Greens, Labour Party, all of whose websites are way better.

    The first page of any website is the most important, capture people in 10 to 30 seconds and they may browse around, the SNP website is garbage – as was the YES website.

  124. Robert Peffers

    @Les Wilson says: 26 December, 2016 at 3:37 pm:

    ” … but my post was to highlight the injustices that are inflicted upon us, and how they get away with it, and of course a myriad of others are long in place. Something most of us know already. “

    Indeed, Les, and I was really not criticising anyone in particular. It is just that there is so much going on, and so little of it ever gets highlighted in the general welter of never ending propaganda, that most of us just haven’t had the chance to draw it all together and reach a firm conclusion.

    Or to put it another way. Most of us are kept far too busy on the front line fighting immediate front line skirmishes to find any time to step back and consider the bigger picture of the main battle.

    That, though, is the main thrust from Westminster. They have, after all, the entire resources of, “The Establishment”.

    For example the Government Ministries, The Civil Services, The Security Services, The Police Services, The Education and Church Establishments, The Mainstream Media and Big Business Associations.

    Not to mention the Financial Sector and even the Boys Brigade, Scouts and other such brainwashing organs or such as the Loyal Orange Order.

    Is it any wonder we unpaid, front line troops, who volunteer our services, cannot often see the wood because of the trees in the way? We are mostly just far too close to the action to see the much bigger picture.

  125. ronnie anderson

    As the Cobblers used tae say buy ah good Last and it will Last ah lifetime . Daily Mail wont last .

  126. Cactus

    Awe ra best to all of the officers at Police Scotland, yous do a sterling job.


    Cheers Meg, we had good fun last night and aye, plenty of water always, from a bottle or from the tap.. best to always filter tap water at the very least, as ye can smell the chemicals it’s been treated with otherwise. Tap water should not have a flavour. Tis also a long way from the source to yer faucet!

    Also good to drink coconut water too for potassium and to sort out yer electrolytes 🙂

    Mon the Police!

  127. heedtracker

    Sunniva says:
    26 December, 2016 at 4:46 pm
    Heedtracker, no, I didn’t invent my pal who works with the council

    At ease soldier. Back to boot camp for you. But its nice that you think you can do your thing though, warming up for the last big push etc.

    UK military is used to crush Scottish democracy all the time. Look at SLab’s vote NO or you’re going to lose 19 thousand Trident nuke jobs. Vote Yes or you wont get all 13 RN destroyers on the Clyde. You can list red and blue tory UKOK military threatening us all day.

    You’re working for a toryboy creep show that “gave” Scotland only PAYE devo 2016, after promising devo max 2014. And now exact same toryboy reprobates rage away at Scotland being highest taxed of their UK regions. You deserve a medal from them Suniva.

  128. Breeks

    gus1940 says:
    26 December, 2016 at 3:37 pm
    Robert Peffers @ 3.25

    The question in Robert’s penultimate para would be a good one for Angus Robertson at the first PMQs after the Xmas recess.

    It would be interesting to see how Maggie May handled it…….

    I’ve been asking a similar question for months, but from a different perspective. Where would an independent Scotland draw its sovereign authority from?

    If the answer is the civic popular sovereignty enshrined 700 years ago, then we must account for how and why we are currently “disconnected” from a sovereign authority which was bestowed upon the people of Scotland in perpetuity.

    If however the new parliament in this Indy Scotland was to follow the precedents set by Westminster and Holyrood, which swear fealty to the Monarch and enact her divide sovereignty, then that is a constitutional dilemma within itself; a new constitutional model with no point of legitimate origin or historical provenance.

    So yes, it’s essentially the same binary question but it carries some constitutional baggage. Are we sovereign, yes or no, but if the answer is yes, as it should be, the ramifications are going to be seismic. And if by some deception, the answer is no, then Scotland and its institutions, independent Laws, Education, and NHS, suddenly have a constitutional revolution knocking at their door. Not before time some might argue…

    When people talk about the calm before the storm, they are talking about the period of calm before the question of Scottish sovereignty is asked in earnest. The time to face that question is coming. But in my scenario, it isn’t a question for Maggie May to answer. It is our Scottish law lords who must surely call time on the legal competence of this faux Act of Union.

  129. mike d

    Heedtracker.11.o3 am . furry animals!give them a few years after Brexit and it might be the homeless and the unemployed they are hunting down. Tallyho chaps spiffing sport.

  130. Dr Jim

    Just reading a guy talking about how the world will wake up about Brexit when they realise they’re missing Britains military presence so they’ll all be begging to do deals

    I just didnae have the heart tae tell him, poor soul

  131. Sunniva

    Heedtracker, don’t know where you’re coming from but you need to chill out, you’ve got the whole wrong end of the stick there. Or maybe you’re a Tory plant? Trying to divide up the indy side? Pick needless fights?

  132. scotspine


    Your posts are at times entertaining and “informative”, because a lot of what you write about in detail is outwith my ken (no pun intended).

    However, your assertions over the training that Police in Scotland get, don’t get or should get are utter pish.

    You would think we are uncaring brutes by your account.

    As a recently retired bobby, I have at times pleaded with mental health nurses to take vulnerable people with mental health issues into their care for them to turn the request down because the person had been drinking or had “personality disorder”.

    I have spent hours looking for missing vulnerable persons let down by health care professionals.

    I have had a knife held to my neck by a little 14 year old girl I traced that had been failed by mental health professionals.

    I have lifted old dead folk off their toilet floor and put them to bed before their families arrive to save their dignity.

    I have worked my arse off to get the evidence to put a 17 year old to jail for attempt murder on a vulnerable man, to then speak at a prison meeting with Social Workers to get support in place for the young offender to try and help him on his release and prevent his re-offending.

    I have saved a young lad from a drug overdose for him to assualt my female colleague and I days later.

    I have entered a burning building that fire service personel refused to, to save a man who was distraught and had tried to burn that building down and take others with him in other parts of the same building.

    I have wept at times with “mans” cruelty to “man”.

    I don’t want medals or accolades or acclaim, I just want ignorant, prejudiced people like you to wind their necks in.

  133. Thepnr


    A great post. Thank you.

  134. Legerwood

    Sunniva @ 4.46

    The vat issue is relatively simple. Local Councils can reclaim VAT, the Scottish Government cannot. Therefore once Police Scotland was formed and control was the responsibility of the Scottish Government then they could no longer reclaim VAT which the individual forces could do when Local Police boards were responsible for the police forces in their areas.

    The SG were told about this but seem to have proceeded on the assumption that HMRC would make changes in its policy in light of the formation of the single force. This did not happen.

  135. Dek

    Yes the SNP website is poor . They must pay professionals to design and manage it so either a clear out is required or some people need to buck up their ideas.
    On a related point why does SNP not have a rebuttal unit as was so integral to to the despicable Blair retaining his electoral advantage ?
    How many recall in the run up to the 2014 referendum waiting for the fight back gainst the MSM distortion which never came ?

  136. Smallaxe


    Thank you for your excellent service, police officers such as yourself are a credit to you, your colleagues and the Job.

    I wish you many years of peaceful retirement.

    Peace and Love to You and Yours Always

  137. mike d

    Re police Scotland,who appoints the chief constable? Is it the sg or westmidden. I believe the position should be awarded to some one who has risen up through the ranks in a Scottish force.

  138. Graf Midgehunter

    @ Gus 1940

    About 2-3 years ago I sent a couple of mails to the SNP with suggestions for improving something, can’t remember what now but anyway I never received an answer in any shape or form. Complete silence.

    After that I didn’t bother anymore.

  139. Malky

    Nae polis. Shockeroony! Streets are running with blood.

  140. Dan Huil

    Usually better, more fruitful, to email a particular SNP MSP or MP.

  141. heedtracker

    mike d, the Highlands are an open air slaughterhouse, let alone fox hunting. Its a rich dude environmental catastrophe and unique to their Scotland region of greater England, probably because anything shootable is now extinct in England. This is a smaller Scottish campaign group but PETA UK’s involved too.

  142. mike d

    Graf midgehunter 2.16pm agree. Its what about Scotland wants . and it’s what the snp should be demanding . not what westmidden throw to us from their table like we are whipped curs.

  143. sinky

    Channel 4 prog on Lego just referred to the Queen of England

  144. packhorse pete


    scotspine says:

    “Your posts are at times entertaining and “informative”, because a lot of what you write about in detail is outwith my ken (no pun intended).

    However, your assertions over the training that Police in Scotland get, don’t get or should get are utter pish.”

    Quite agree scotspine. Don’t take it to heart – some posters are experts in everything. Or so they think, without any knowledge or evidence. Others are wiser and realise the difficulty people on the ground have. I’m afraid there will always be armchair warriors.

  145. heedtracker

    packhorse pete says:
    26 December, 2016 at 8:13 pm

    scotspine says:

    No job exists in a vacuum, especially public sector. Ofcourse people are going to form and state opinions about them. The melodrama here, over a pretty benign opinion, on WoS, is hardly cause for meltdown.

    Who knew cops were such wilting lilies. 😀 Police get thousands and thousands more applicants than there are jobs too.

  146. carjamtic

    Scotspine you forgot to slag of the ambulance drivers,the hospital doctors and nursing staff….oh wait you didn’t.


  147. sinky

    Lever wood @ 7.03 Northern Ireland single police force doesn’t pay Vat and Theresa May recently exempted centrally funded school academies in England from vat. Britannia waves the rules again

  148. stewartb

    Dek @ 7.22pm

    I agree with your comments Dek, about an SNP/SG rebuttal process and I also recall waiting in 2014 for the formal Yes Scotland organisation upping the fight back against corporate media’s scares. I do not underestimate the difficulty, but with the resources and talent available to the SNP/SG, is it not reasonable to expect to see now signs of a shift in strategy and/or tactic towards an almost wholly oppositional media? If there has been a shift since learning from the 2014 experience, I’m not seeing it.

    I posted the following here on 3 November, 2016:

    ‘On who could establish a ‘rebuttal unit’, SNP or SG?

    This from the Guardian online (13 June, 2007) on “…. how New Labour made the news’:

    “Rebuttal was developed as never before in Whitehall. In opposition, Labour had its Excalibur computer, to provide material at an instant to combat Tory attacks. A similar system was brought into the Cabinet Office.”

    For the avoidance of doubt, I was not a supporter of New Labour, but this points up that a government can act proactively and robustly to rebut. Not at all convinced that ‘rebuttals’ communicated via the SNP web site would be sufficient.’

  149. Giving Goose

    An advantage of being stuffed with good food and wine is the clarity of thought that it brings on.

    Britnat thoughts and anger are essentially an indication of their struggling to bring into focus a coherent Britnat identity.

    What is “British”?

    For your average Scottish Britnat it is extremely unclear and they simply cannot articulate this.

    It’s a muddle of monarchy, The Royal Navy, something about Dunkirk, dim memories of Empire and a sense of “Greatness” lost.

    But the reality of potholes, crap service industry jobs, Johnny Foreigner being on an equal footing and the fabric of society not being exactly “Imperial” creates confusion.

    Hence the anger on display. If you had invested considerable capitol into something that was then observed to be visibly going down the toilet, you’d be mad!

    I guess that ultimately it’s about identity and backing the right horse.

    Most people are not going to back a turd in a race even when the turd has historically been their favourite horse. But it’s hard to let go. But let go they will, gradually.

    The UK is a turd, swimming round the vortex, battling against the suction pulling it down. But down the toilet it’s going.

    The Britnat anger is understandable but they are backing the wrong horse. What they cannot accept is that the turd being flushed away is all for the best. And as the turd dives away into the sewer the rats will abandon the sinking turd.

    They’re going to be angry but at least they’ll be dry (and less smelly)!

  150. Thepnr

    Wings Over Scotland at Christmas is always a pleasure. When folk rage about this, that and the other I smile.

    Personally I love it the nuttier it gets.

  151. Dan Huil

    @Giving Goose 8:24pm

    Exactly right GG. The britnat crap is crumbling. In the new year we’ll hear the so-called supreme court’s decision on voting on brexit. It doesn’t matter what the SS decides because britnat hysteria will be guaranteed to reach a new high. Then just wait for brexit to actually begin.

  152. gala

    I agree with those saying the SNP website isn’t good enough.

    Their RSS feed stopped and never started again, as far as I know. I use a RSS app (Newsify) to pick up news as it is released, including WoS, Bateman, Scot Goes Pop etc etc.. Everyone seems to have RSS and the Greens use it very effectively. So what is the SNP’s excuse?

    That aside, it’s not a very friendly or functional site. YesScotland was pathetic. These two should have been Yes flagship sites. Nah, the wider Yes movement was successful online despite SNP and YesScot!

    Before IndyRef2 they really need to get sorted out!

    But there are other shite sites around. Almost 20 years, in the early days of the interweb, badly designed sites had text which jumped around as graphics and other elements loaded. Then this all stopped and now …. so many media sites are back to the old days of jumping around! You start reading and then something pops into the page and you can’t even see where you were! Of course it’s all advertising and perhaps intentional. Off putting, though.

  153. CameronB Brodie

    Re. the VAT, the repeated warnings from the Treasury and sovereignty. I agree with Pete, Scots should know their place.

    Their place is below that of their English counterpart, as England’s MPs effectively control Westminster and the policy and funding framework it requires the Scottish Government to operate within.

    The colonised don’t tend to rule over the coloniser. Don’t get ideas above your station Scotland! Isn’t that correct Pete?


  154. Glamaig

    Rebuttal – Scotgov could run something like this

    UKmyths or Unionmyths or Britpish

  155. louis.b.argyll

    There is nothing more predictable than a Conservative playing the ‘but..wisdom’ card.

    Blindly following be-suited respected reason above logic itself is what has got us here.

    ‘Here’ being where 1% control our planet’s wealth and a small nation cannot shake off medieval style suppression.

  156. Liz

    Just catching up..

    Breeks..Et all..

    The Soverenty question has facinated me for year’s.
    But please remember I am just giving a (very very lay ) opinion as I see it,and ONLY for the purposes of discussion.
    Though discuss it we must, and, IMHO, right soon,as getting this right is not just what really matters,for Scotland it is always going to matter.

    And as far as I can work out we are going to need a Philidelfia lawyer to get anywhere.

    That turns out to be no as much of a joke as is first seems.
    If we are to claim , define and operate Soverenty.
    Then we I think must somehow build on the “founding documents”….Which would be the declaration of the Clergy & Arbroth.

    Then draw up a Constution and as with the US (hence the Philidelfia lawyer reference) agree at this point in time to invest our Soverenty…. Forevermore…In the documents of our Constution.
    That’s where we put it!!

    How we get there is or seems to be very contractory in itself.

    Dividing out Political Soverenty and Legal Soverenty is the starting point,and as much as Robert Peffers and I agree,and I will always acknowledge his superior knowledge of this.
    Sometimes I find that Robert relies on Legal Soverenty a wee bit too much,to the detriment of accounting for the political elements.

    … Although I suspect that he understands it very well and is choosing to prioritize the Legal side of things…

    In the current set up we won’t, I think get very far Leagally unless and until we nail the Political aspect,The Court’s will never settle things, mainly because, with the lack of a written Constution they are always only ever enforcing the will of the Politicians.

    This is as paradoxical as the Treaty of the Union itself.
    IE….1 MP = 1 Vote Is surely Democratic?
    ……2 Equal Countries = Equal Say because everyone’s vote counts for the same?…. Purlease …..The existence of Santa has more credibility…Yet the Santa some claim doesn’t exist manages to deliver for the kid’s year after year.

    Who would want to interrupt that and spoil the magic for everyone..Well certainty not the MSM..But I can’t think why!!!

    Anyhoo…We are stuck with defining a Constution that by the very act of claiming the right to do so,calls upon the very concepts that the “plebs” aka the people want to amend.
    Unlike the Americans we are not discounting the devine right of King’s….We have already done that!!
    Yet we charge a King as our Guardian??
    We claim Devine Sovereignty…Have we checked Scot’s are on board with that?
    Are we to acknowledge,then subvert God??? How tricky is that??

    We are going to have to be very careful about what happens after the Yes vote is delivered.
    I can understand the mindset…We voted for you to do what you said so get on with it….
    But I would invite everyone who is interested in this stuff to go and read the .. Interim Constution.. Proposed..Had there been a yes vote in 2014.
    Paying most attention to how we moved from the interm one to the Actual one.
    Civic Scotland.
    Religious Scotland.
    Business Scotland.
    Political Scotland.

    Are we talking. In reverse order?
    Ruth. & Kez.?
    Aberdeen Oil Guy..Sir sumbidiy?
    People who canny organise tae no employ pedoes?
    Civic… Bankers..Then em???…
    Who ever it is in that proposal..It certainly was not us “plebs”

    We need to work out how it gets done differently if it is going to be done differently, espically if we are going to get our Constution right.

    How stupid is the right to a house???

    Well no, it’s not, ofcourse it is not but if those words are in the Scottish Constution then it’s a joke.

    We have to define , how we are organised to create a path to achieve what society need at a given point in time.
    All points in time.

    How about the right to Life… In Scotland that means a house,it doesn’t need said,Aye ??

    Nowhere in the American Constution does it say that a flushing toilet is a Constutional right…But every home insurance policy states that the absence of a flushing toilet…Renders a house in unhabitable??
    All I am saying we need a living document.
    But more than that.
    We need to be paying attention to the who how and why of what we finnished up with.
    So while Aye Breeks we definitely do need these questions asked.
    Our challenge. I think is because we are trying to do this peaceful and leagal.
    Is not to let the ruling elite define our documents..Em to…Take back control… Which was never an option for those under English Soverenty….Us now that’s a whole other conversation!!
    Get rid of that stupid feudal Treaty,and we can define our own future.. Because we are Sovereign!!
    But it must be we/us/the people doing the defining!

  157. Cal

    Why don’t the Scottish government set up a police force in the smallest village in Scotland? Then you’d have two police forces in Scotland: Smallest Village In Scotland Police Force or SVISPF for short (covering only the smallest village in Scotland) and Police Scotland (covering the rest of Scotland). It would cost only slightly more than the situation now – SVISPF would need their own chief and they’d need a different livery for their car/byclcle and some different letter heads but apart from that the Scottish government would keep all the economies of scale that they enjoy with the current Police Scotland set up BUT avoid the £25 million tax bill every year because Police Scotland would no longer be a national force.

    It’s all a bit silly really but the unified force tax rule is a stupid arbitrary law. Stupid laws require stupid solutions. No?

  158. Capella

    After the 2014 referendum, Stu’s objective was to destroy Labour in Scotland. That has been accomplished IMO.

    Now it’s time he moved on to destroy the Tories in Scotland. This article is a well timed salvo aimed at the total farce that is the “Ruth Davidson No Surrender Party”.

    Mind you, the Tories are making a pretty good job of destroying themselves. BREXIT is the irresistible force which is destroying the immovable object of Tory unity. There will be a confrontation between the factions soon which might make an election inevitable.

    The vagaries of the electoral systems here make democracy impossible as long as Westminster is a First Past the Post system. That guarantees that Tory majorities in England out-vote anyone we in Scotland elect. The Tories are effectively in power in Scotland because the reserved powers control the most important tools of government.

    So let’s attack the real enemies of democracy, the Tory Party. That includes their financiers, their fellow travellers (the Lib Dems) and their Press apologists. Let’s not be lulled into a dwam of navel gazing about whether or not the SNP should revamp their website, put out more press releases etc. The problem is not lack of information, The problem is control of the basic functions of the state.

  159. Lenny Hartley

    Cal fraid not, if the smallest police force were accountable to there local authority they could claim their vat back, the remaining national police fore being accountable to the sg would still not get their vat back.
    Somebody posted earlier that the sg should have known they were not going to get the vat back . However, I’m sure the SG looked at the situation with psni and seen that they were a national police service and got there vat back. The SG need to and Nicola Was doing it last week mention at every opportunity that we don’t get to reclaim it.

  160. Robert Peffers

    @Breeks says: 26 December, 2016 at 6:02 pm:

    ” … I’ve been asking a similar question for months, but from a different perspective. Where would an independent Scotland draw its sovereign authority from?”

    From the legal system that Scotland has in place right now and that legal system is based upon the premise that the people of Scotland are sovereign. There are legal precedents and fairly recent affirmations of those precedents that have enshrined the premise into Scots Law.

    For example, when the Road Traffic Act was changed to allow local authorities in England, (that is the Kingdom of England and thus incorporates both N. Ireland and Wales). There was a judgment made in the High Court of Scotland that clamping, or towing away, of vehicles, (even on private land), and demanding money to release these impounded vehicles was contrary to Scots law.

    The judgement was that it was demanding Money with Menace.

    Then there is the Scots law that Scots, being sovereign, cannot be prevented from free roaming anywhere in Scotland with a few exceptions mainly due to safety and privacy reasons. For example you can be charged for trespass on Railways or MOD bases. Also if you get too close to private dwellings then you can be charged with invading the occupier’s privacy. In all cases you can be sued for any damage you do on private property but it is not a criminal offence.

    Here also is a rather odd one. If you go into a farmers field and, for example take a neep from the field you can be charged with theft. However, if you steal the neep but peal and eat it in the field you cannot be charged with theft.

    Anyhow, the point is that under Scots law the people are still legally sovereign and sovereignty of the kingdom cannot be given away by the sovereign. Furthermore, the Members of the London parliament from Scotland can choose to NOT swear by God on the bible but to make an affirmation thus:-

    I (name of Member) do solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law.

    However, under Scots law all MSP’s at Holyrood must swear allegiance to The People of Scotland. As per the people’s sovereignty and not to the Queen who is NOT sovereign in Scotland.

    “If the answer is the civic popular sovereignty enshrined 700 years ago, then we must account for how and why we are currently “disconnected” from a sovereign authority which was bestowed upon the people of Scotland in perpetuity.”

    And that is exactly the question for no where is there any such law in either Scotland or under English law that says the people of Scotland are NOT sovereign.

    Westminster therefore cannot claim legal sovereignty over Scotland. As a matter of both fact and law the swearing of oaths of allegiance to the Monarch was introduced into the law of the Kingdom of England by the Magna Carta.

    King John of England, (1199–1216), signed and sealed the English Kingdom’s Magna Carta on 15 June 1215: on an island in the River Thames.

    Just a wee whiles shy of the 1706/7. Treaty of Union, (492 years of a wee whiles actually).

    ” … If however the new parliament in this Indy Scotland was to follow the precedents set by Westminster and Holyrood, which swear fealty to the Monarch and enact her divide sovereignty, then that is a constitutional dilemma within itself; a new constitutional model with no point of legitimate origin or historical provenance.”

    Well no, actually – Holyrood respects the independent law of Scotland and MSPs at Holyrood already swear loyalty to the sovereign people of Scotland as per Scots Law.

    In fact, under Scots law, the Monarch is the subject of the sovereign people of Scotland. The Monarch is appointed by the people who reserve the right to depose any royal who fails to properly protect the people’s sovereignty.

    Here is the translation of the part of the Declaration of Arbroath that states just that :-

    “Yet if he should give up what he has begun, seeking to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own right and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be subjected to the lordship of the English. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself. “

    ” … So yes, it’s essentially the same binary question but it carries some constitutional baggage. Are we sovereign, yes or no.”

    We are undoubtedly legally sovereign and Holyrood already respects that law. There needs be no big constitutional upheaval. We have the parliament, we have elected Members of both Holyrood and Westminster and the Westminster ones can come home. The only remaining question is do they just get absorbed by Holyrood or do we have an elected upper and lower house?

    ” … When people talk about the calm before the storm, they are talking about the period of calm before the question of Scottish sovereignty is asked in earnest.”

    I would venture an opinion that the Law Lords have enough sense as to accept the precedents already enshrined in Scottish law that Law Lords themselves have set in the not too distant past.

    ” … The time to face that question is coming.”

    I would suggest it has already passed that time but has remained an almost taboo subject.

    ” … But in my scenario, it isn’t a question for Maggie May to answer. It is our Scottish law lords who must surely call time on the legal competence of this faux Act of Union.”

    I would also suggest that both our Law Lords and our elected representative have wisely held back from doing anything about it just now. For the very good reason that, as we, the people, are legally sovereign then it is no one else’s legal choice to make but ours as a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland.

    Until that legal majority is assured and certain it is best for all concerned to hold fire on that particular issue.

  161. Phronesis

    The Scottish Police Force contributed to the Smith Commission in 2014. It’s worth reading because several of its statements reflect the ambitions of the YES movement.It notes the divergent approaches to the sustainability of public sector services between WM and SG. We are fortunate that SG isn’t waging war on public services (and by implications, its citizens) despite the limitations of a financial straight jacket. A Scottish budget/pocket money that WM deigns to hand out as a supposed ‘reward’ for the enormous financial contribution that Scotland makes to the UK coffers whilst thwarting any aspirational plans that further Scotland’s progress.

    ‘There can be no doubt that a marked difference in policing policy emerged in 2002 when Police Community Support Officers were introduced in England & Wales. This different policy approach was reinforced in 2008 when the then Home Secretary in England and Wales reneged on a police pay award for the first time since the establishment of the police pay negotiating machinery in 1979. This occurred again in 2011 when police pay, terms and conditions in England & Wales were subject to sustained attack leading to substantial loss of value. Whilst it may be debated by the governments then and since, the Scottish Police Federation is firmly of the view that since 2002, the UK Government has embarked on a course of action to, shrink, weaken, cheapen and de-value the police service in England & Wales…

    The Scottish Police Federation believes it is in the interests of the people of Scotland to have a parliament with all necessary powers to ensure it can deliver the best possible life chances for our citizens, regardless of where they happen to live or how rich or poor they happen to be…

    The Scottish Police Federation believes that ALL UK spending decisions should clearly identify by each budget line, the proportions of spending drawn from borrowing, income tax, national insurance, corporation tax, excise duties and any other clearly identifiable income stream…

    The Scottish Police Federation believes that unless the relationship between the Scottish Parliament and Annually Managed Expenditure is addressed, that ‘control’ over income tax will prove to give the appearance of more powers without actually delivering so…

    The Scottish Police Federation believes that Barnett bypass is manifestly unfair, deprives devolved administrations of funding that could be utilised to tackle social injustice…

    The Scottish Police Federation believes the Scottish Parliament should have full policy as well as legislative responsibility for public sector pensions in Scotland’

    Someone argued that nationalists do not make a nation- quite- it is patriotism of the demos not ethnos that makes a nation. Civic nationalism or constitutional patriotism evolves when the political culture crystallises around its constitution and has a universal content of a system of rights.
    Scotland should be writing its constitution now in anticipation of independence.

  162. Capella

    @ Robert Peffers
    In fact, under Scots law, the Monarch is the subject of the sovereign people of Scotland. The Monarch is appointed by the people who reserve the right to depose any royal who fails to properly protect the people’s sovereignty.

    So, in that case, HRH Elizabeth I is obliged to support our expressed will to stay in the EU. No wonder she has a bad cold.

  163. Capella

    @ Phronesis – well said. I too remembered the excellent contribution the Police Federation made to the Smith Commission. Deserves to be acknowledged for the progressive values it supports. The Scottish Daily Mail’s attempts to divide and rule are pathetic.

  164. Brian Doonthetoon

    O/T – Just picked this up from GA Ponsonby’s Twitter feed:-

    “Inform Scotland has finalised the billboard campaign for BBC Misreporting Scotland for the final two weeks of January.
    We have been working with the three main providers of traditional billboards to get our billboards up across the country. These are JCDecaux, PrimeSight and ClearChannel.
    Despite there being no legal reason for not running the poster, JCDecaux refused to run it because they said it was “too controversial”. Primesight refused to run it apparently because the BBC itself is one of their major customers.
    That left us with ClearChannel, who agreed to run the poster, but only in a slightly revised format, which turns our statement
    BBC Is Misreporting Scotland
    Is the BBC Misreporting Scotland?”

    You can read the rest of the update at this link:-

    It has info about the advans and the locations for the static billboards. I find the Dundee one particularly inspired. It’s on the Corner of Dens Park, on a main bus route and also at the junction that most fitba fans will negotiate getting to a match. You can see see the location at this Streetview link:-

    I wonder if this campaign will generate any BUM coverage?

  165. Ken500

    Statistically there are as a percentage of the population too many people with additional needs in prison. Fact,

    Too many people with drink/drug addiction in prison, Fact. They would be better placed in proper ‘total abstinence’ rehab counselling. Cheaper and more effective, Fact.

    A tax on ‘loss leading’ drink would cut down on police costs. Most crime is related to drink/drug abuse. Fact.

    Crime is a gender issue. Most violent crime is committed by (16) 18 to 24 year olds usually against each other. Fact. Females commit far less crime. Fact. Usually related to shoplifting or no paying TV licences. Fact.

    Too many people are detained in cells overnight for ‘charges’ which cannot come to court. 50%? Fact.

    Orange Marches should not be policed they should be banned. They are in most parts of Scotland. Fact.

    More Police could get a weekend off.

    Care in the Community – Prison. Thatcher shut many of the mental care units. Fact.

    Police Scotland was set up to share facilities and save money. £Billion? Even paying VAT more saving are being made. Even with the ‘so called’ deficit.

  166. galamcennalath

    Glamaig says:


    Now there’s a word which deserves to find its way into universal usage! 🙂

  167. Dr Jim

    I’ve never been a Polis, would’nt want to be one either
    horrible difficult hard job of work for anybody to do and I’m frankly amazed at the low turnover of manpower doing it

    So the Unionists can use it politically till they’re blue in the face to try and score points off the SNP until we look what’s happening in other countries and we see that all things considered between the SNP and the Polis there seems to be a pretty good relationship going and given the nature of any public service job that’s almost a miracle these days

    I do remember talking to a Polis once about a criminal story in the Daily Record and asking him if he’d seen it and this was his answer

    “I’m a Cop I don’t read the Daily Record”

  168. Pete

    Regarding VAT rules and regs
    I rather thought that many of them emanated from an EU level.
    Probably wrong but I’m sure that some of the EU lovers will correct me.

  169. Fred

    “I’m going to smash that shite Creech!” Robert Burns.

    True dat! 🙂

    @ Sinky, well said.

  170. Ken500

    Surprised some Police do not know the basic statistics, as taught in basic Uni modules. Just as well they are retired.

  171. Thepnr


    I have always thought that the billboard campaign would run run into problems, that two out of three of the major companies have refused to have anything to do with it comes as no surprise.

    This is a media war between good and evil. I can only hope that good will win in the end.

    It’s all about truth for me. The BBC is Misreporting Scotland.

  172. Graf Midgehunter

    Robert Peffers:

    “Well no, actually – Holyrood respects the independent law of Scotland and MSPs at Holyrood already swear loyalty to the sovereign people of Scotland as per Scots Law.

    In fact, under Scots law, the Monarch is the subject of the sovereign people of Scotland. The Monarch is appointed by the people who reserve the right to depose any royal who fails to properly protect the people’s sovereignty.”

    Then surely Robert, Elisabeth. Queen of Scots should be the one who “yearly” swears allegiance to the people of Scotland.

  173. Capella

    On a lighter note (not) – Person of the Year, the Russian Hacker:

    “In fact, some would actually have us believe that Brexit was a Russian hack job.

    Labour MP Ben Bradshaw appeared to be auditioning for a stand-up comedy job when he told his peers it is “highly probable” that Russia interfered in the UK’s Brexit referendum.

    “I don’t think we have even begun to wake up to what Russia is doing when it comes to cyber warfare,” Bradshaw said without a hint of irony. “Not only their interference, now proven, in the American presidential campaign, [but] probably in our referendum last year. We don’t have the evidence for that yet. But I think it’s highly probable.”

    Take a moment to reflect upon that last line, because it’s the same line being used as ‘proof’ of Russian infiltration across the pond in America: “We don’t have the evidence for that yet. But I think it’s highly probable.”

  174. packhorse pete

    packhorse pete says:
    26 December, 2016 at 8:13 pm

    heedtracker says:

    “No job exists in a vacuum, especially public sector. Ofcourse people are going to form and state opinions about them. The melodrama here, over a pretty benign opinion, on WoS, is hardly cause for meltdown.

    Who knew cops were such wilting lilies. ? Police get thousands and thousands more applicants than there are jobs too”

    I have no idea what you’re talking about. What’s your point? What melodrama ?

  175. Brian Doonthetoon

    Hi Pete.

    You display an ignorance of how the EU works. The commission comes up with ideas which may or not be put into law by the Parliament. Individual member countries then adopt the laws into their own systems to suit the needs of that country.

    The TUPE regulations are a good example [Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981 (updated 2006)].

    The regulations in Germany are different to the regulations in Denmark are different to the regulations in the UK and so on. Each country has the freedom to tailor the regulations to suit their own situation.

    Maybe you should read the wee booklet at the link below so you can, eventually, take your foot out of your mouth?

  176. Footsoldier

    Agree with some other commentators on Wings that the SNP needs to buck up. As a member, I know a few long term members who are unhappy at quite a lot of things with the SNP.

    I also see increasing reference to this in the letter pages of some newspapers from people I know to be SNP members.

  177. Dr Jim

    You’d think even by now Unionists would be getting a bit suspicious that newspapers only ever report SNP Baad every single day

    I point that out regularly to doubters and ask them why they think newspapers would do that constantly
    The truth is that it only works on the rabid nutters the selfish and the uninformed and the uninformed are lessening bit by bit

    We know that in the General Election both Tories and Labour voted SNP and will again because they know and understand the SNP are better managers of the country than the rest of them it’s the matter of Independence that’s holding some back not SNP competence

    Scotlands only enemy is not other political parties, it’s division, and division is what’s always been used against us, the longer we stick together the stronger we get and that’s how you win

    So Fukc the BBC and the media dark arts, stand together and there’s shit all they can do about it except greet

  178. heedtracker

    I have no idea what you’re talking about. What’s your point? What melodrama ?

    Quite a lot of jobs can involve being assaulted, insulted, spat at etc by the public. So the comment up there by a policeman about not accepting criticism from non cops, stuck out. At least cops can nick them.

  179. Graf Midgehunter


    “I have always thought that the billboard campaign would run run into problems, that two out of three of the major companies have refused to have anything to do with it comes as no surprise.”

    What are the odds on that the two refusniks by pure “coincidence” allow a pro Beeb run..!?

  180. Ken500

    Relatives in the Police. People have been put in cells overnight for mild misdeanours (charges) which could never come to court. Ridiculous. Glasgow Police fabrication of evidence. Dropped. Lying Reports. A total waste of public money.

  181. Jockanese Wind Talker

    Couldn’t agree more with you @ Thepnr says at 12:31 pm.

    The defenders of the Union have nothing left but the repetition of lies on Education, Policing, Healthcare and Council Funding.

    They are running on vapour left in the tank from Indy Ref 1.

    As long as we all do our bit in countering these lies when they come up in everyday conversations, sow the seed, highlight the evidence to the contrary.

    SNPBaaad is our biggest weapon.

    Once a person sees the truth there is no way to unsee it.

  182. Thepnr

    @Graf Midgehunter

    It is what it is. He who pays the piper calls the tune.

    That’s what we are up against and to win we will have to fight, that’s why I support the billboards. Fighting does not need violence and I believe that must be avoided. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fight back against their propaganda though with methods of our own.

    Just the thought of billboards have the establishment shitting themselves. That makes me happy, we win when we start calling the tune.

  183. Effijy

    Poor Ruth’s partner, spending Xmas with 2 Turkeys, distinguished only by one having a Red Neck and the other
    a Brass one!

    Get Stuffed!

  184. shug

    Looking forward to the BBC’s range of Hogmanay programmes

    How to talk about new year and not Hogmanay and not mention the dirty word – Scotland

    I never cease to be astonished at how their employees and presenters in Scotland continue to deliver their masters words

  185. Graf Midgehunter


    Yes, what I want is for us to be pro-active and not as in 2014 to often reacting and having to defend ourselves against BT’s accusations.

    Our initiatives should catch them on the wrong foot so that we can chase the ba****ds back to their lairs.

  186. Effijy

    I was sent thing while away for a few days:

    The Inform Scotland BBC Misreporting Scotland Billboards Campaign – Update
    Inform Scotland has finalised the billboard campaign for BBC Misreporting Scotland for the
    final two weeks of January.
    We have been working with the three main providers of traditional billboards to get our
    billboards up across the country. These are JCDecaux, PrimeSight and ClearChannel.
    Despite there being no legal reason for not running the poster, JCDecaux refused to run it
    because they said it was “too controversial”. Primesight refused to run it apparently
    because the BBC itself is one of their major customers.
    That left us with ClearChannel, who agreed to run the poster, but only in a slightly revised
    format, which turns our statement BBC Is Misreporting Scotland into Is the BBC
    Misreporting Scotland?

    The enemies of Scotland are many and cluster around the
    Elitist bodies who control and pay those in Westminster and all UK Media out-lets.

    Every UK newspaper, Every TV & Radio Station and now it seems we are not allowed to expose the Truth to the people of Scotland on Our Billboards.

    Scotland is to England what Tibet is to China,
    What Sevastopol is to Russia.

    We have been invaded by propaganda suggesting that our people always wanted to be ruled by a neighbouring country and we must give up all rights to support those who steal our revenues, our culture and our own destiny.

    Just how much more proof do impartial Scots require before they see the obvious, you are being manipulated, controlled, and deceived by your English master at every turn!

  187. Macart

    I don’t know much about police, about their budgets, their inner workings, their admin, their inner politics and such. Wouldn’t dare even hazard a guess tbh. Don’t know if I could walk a mile in those shoes.

    I do know they’re people though. You get the good. You get the bad. You get justice and sometimes injustice. That’s people and that’s life I reckon.

    They uphold the laws that others make and swim in the sewers that most folks wouldn’t or couldn’t. They see the worst of us and sometimes the best. It’ll break some and make others. No one could do that job I reckon and come out the other side untouched. They’re people.

    Like any public body they need to be held accountable as is right and proper. How and ever, Police Scotland has done a remarkable job in deteriorating financial circumstance. Its not what many wanted I’m sure and its not what many in the police force wanted either, but their record and the public record speaks for itself. Crime across the board is down at a 40 year low and that surely has to be acknowledged.

    Personally I’m kinda tired of having politicians use our institutions as punchbags for their own agendas. Doesn’t matter whether its the SNHS, Police Scotland or Education. We know what they’re doing and WHY they’re doing it and it has fuck all to do with resolving any problems or failings of those services.

    Folk want to fix what they consider to be wrong with a thing? Mibbies best to put the politicians in their place first. Take the rhetoric and the soundbite out of the mix first and foremost.

  188. Dr Jim

    If you read the Wiki description of the 2014 referendum, the history described therein of events and their outcomes is slightly different to the truth, creating the overall impression the Better Together campaign was the nice one and the Yes campaign contained intimidation and manufactured “facts” although they did include Nick Robinsons “mistake” but does refer to Salmond not Mr or FM just Salmond

    Other people had first names

    Division folks, it’s how they do it, including the “I’m a member but I’m no happy” brigade

    I would suggest to anybody to copy a list of the countries who have left the UK and ask folk to point to one that’s worse off, just one, even the African ones and that’s after they’ve been asset stripped

    Or just take a wee holiday to the Republic of Ireland to see the difference Independence makes to a people, it’s startling

  189. Alan Mackintosh

    Re the police article, the P&J ran with it as well today. Pretty much the same as the others, guess it was easy news, just reprint the Tory press release. They ran an editorial on it as well.

    @ Graf Midgehunter, re Brenda’s oath. One of the interesting snippets which appeared out of the Supreme court submissions was one piece in (I think) the submission by Aiden O Neill QC who was acting for the International Workers Union (or something like that). Apparently she has to reaffirm her oath every year in person or in writing to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland.

  190. yesindyref2

    Makes me wonder – did Davidson pay the police bill for the last Tory Conference in Scotland? Was there VAT on it?

    As for the Queen bit for what it’s worth. For the opening of Parliament, the Queen is given the keys of Edinburgh. The Crown of Scotland is processed up to Holyrood in the Riding, so she’s opening Parliament with the Crown of Scotland, not whatever other one she wears. The Riding also existed before the Union, so it’s officially a continuation. Probably more for cereremonial reasons, but hey, that’s legal too.

    The Police are fine, they have my support.

    Is BBC Misreporting Scotland? as a question is better, I think. People remember a question, but challenge or ignore an assertion.

    Happy non-Christmas and Happy non-Stephens Day.

    May your God if you have one, be with you!

  191. Iain More

    My brother in law has not long retired from the police he was in his mid 50’s.

    In the case of the Daily Heil the goose-stepping doesn’t even stop at Xmas. I wonder if they can ever get out of the jack boots.

    Stop the presses as my cold has turned into something nastier but I cant find any Yoons near at hand to cough up green coloured phlegm on as they are to busy drooling over the Royal sickie to leave their castles and holiday homes.

  192. CameronB Brodie

    “We don’t have the evidence for that yet. But I think it’s highly probable.”

    How many hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians have had their lives destroyed by this sort of logic, as Britain takes even more of an interest east of Suez?

    @Ben Bradshaw
    Did you think the WMD threat was real? Are you not a bit credulous to be an effective representative of your constituents, if so?

  193. heedtracker

    Dr Jim says:
    26 December, 2016 at 11:51 pm
    If you read the Wiki description of the 2014 referendum,

    The owner of Wiki Jimmy Wales was and presumably is a ferocious opponent of Scottish indy. He was never off BBC pure propaganda. Its an odd thing to watch too, if you can find him giving it laldy for the BBC, 2014. Its odd in that he’s never written anything vote NO, online at least but was extremely No on tv. Got him on the UK box more often maybe.

  194. Cactus

    Aweright BDTT,

    Re the latest developments with the BBC billboard campaign.. there’s always a way to regain the upper hand, quite poetically.

    On previous protests I’ve seen people carrying big Yes! placards on long-poles (just like we do with our Scotland flags), SO, when the billboards go up..

    Is the BBC Misreporting Scotland?

    Who’s got a camera?

  195. yesindyref2

    I remember back in 85 I think it was when riots against the police were spreading over England and were rumoured to be coming to Scotland. A few of us in my local pub decided if they came anywhere near we would protect the police even if it meant breaking the law. They protect us after all.

    Curiously some guy did try to start a riot in Dundee, but a sympathetic passer-by gave him a Kids Meal. True story!

  196. Thepnr


    Correct and well said. Get in there wie the head down.

  197. Robert Peffers

    @Capella says: 26 December, 2016 at 9:47 pm:

    ” … So, in that case, HRH Elizabeth I is obliged to support our expressed will to stay in the EU. No wonder she has a bad cold.”

    Exactly, Capella. I think there is a bit of a cold draft blowing along the Buck house corridors since Cameron informed the public Her Majesty was purring when he phoned her the indyref results.

    As Her Maj has never contradicted Cameron then her tenure as Queen of Scots might indeed be setting a wee wind of change to blow up the Royal passages – in more ways than one.

  198. CameronB Brodie

    I remember both sides of Buccleuch Street, Edinburgh, were lined with a couple or three anti-riot squadrons, on the day of the first big Yes march during indyref1. The ones I spoke to were all English, so I suppose this was outside assistance to boost Police Scotland’s lacking capabilities. So it would appear BLiS___d weren’t the only ones busing in support from down south.

  199. Robert Peffers

    Graf Midgehunter says: 26 December, 2016 at 10:13 pm:
    Robert Peffers:

    ” … Then surely Robert, Elisabeth. Queen of Scots should be the one who “yearly” swears allegiance to the people of Scotland.”

    Well Midgehunter, believe it or not my naturally enquiring mind did not make me go and look that particular fact up.

    Now I’m sure I must track down a transcript of whatever the words are the Queen does say when a Holyrood session is opened. Sometimes being of a curious nature can be a right pain in the rectum.

  200. Cadogan Enright

    Scottish Daily Mail claims that they achieved 6% of Scotlands population in Saturday – their best day

    I’d say the BBC does a lot more damage mis-reporting Scotland

  201. robertknight

    Xmas Cracker joke of the year…

    Q. What is wet, green and has two million ar$eholes?

    A. Scotland

  202. crazycat

    @ Cameron

    That sort of thing pre-dates Police Scotland. When the G8 summit was held at Gleneagles in 2005, there were protests at Dungavel detention centre many times the size of those that were regularly organized by Ayrshire Friends of the Refugees (before anyone points it out, I know Dungavel is in Lanarkshire; AFR just happened to be the ones who got the protests together). The police in attendance were from Manchester, and much nastier that the local ones, with whom AFR had a good relationship.

    Similarly, whenever there was a bigger-than-usual demo at Faslane, there were English police present. Those were officers from English forces, rather than English individuals working for the Scottish police.

  203. Meg merrilees

    So, Christmas day they attack the Polis;

    Tonight on the BBC Scotland website the headline is “Head of BMA Scotland says NHS Scotland is ‘struggling to cope’ ” and quotes Conservative Donald Cameron as saying ‘it is on its knees’.
    Pathetic article as it implies the service is not doing very well when, in fact, it is out-performing the NHS in England, NI and Wales ( I think?) and we are also taking in some English patients with anorexia because there is nowhere to treat them in England.

    Ruthie must have been too busy at the Boxing Day sales to comment!

    Further down I read that Scottish teachers lose more days due to mental illness: – Statistics obtained by the Lib-Dems showed teachers, head teachers, teaching support staff and nursery staff took a total of 158, 639 days off work in 2015/16 compared to 150,000 in 2014/15 and 140,000 in 2013/14.

    A few lines down Alex Cole-Hamilton, Scottish Lib-Dem health spokesman, said that Scottish teachers had taken 477, 000 days off in the last three years which clearly showed that they’re under ‘severe strain’.

    158,639 + 150,000 + 140,000 = 448,639??

    Where does he get the other 28,361 days from?

    We’re also told that there are about 50,000 teachers and early learning staff in Scottish schools (but not how many head teachers and teacher support staff.) If I do my sums right, that means the average Scottish teacher has taken off 9.54 days in three years as a result of mental illness – 3 days a year….less if the number of head teachers and teacher support staff raises that 50,000 number significantly.

    Think there are some mountains being mischiefed from molehills during the season of ‘goodwill to all men’ except the SNP!

  204. CameronB Brodie

    I’m sure it does and I’m pretty sure it will be down to reducing risk of officers going ‘native’. Probably reflected in the makeup of the senior ranks, commented on earlier.

    I wasn’t really taking a pop at Police Scotland, more inviting an informed defense of their organisation.

  205. yesindyref2

    As far as anything like the G8 is concerned, there are foreign heads of state and other senior ministers, and it’s a specialist protection and security squad from the Met that take care of that, used to be SO6 I think, but that merged with SO17 (Royal etc) and the thing is called something else now.

    Police Scotland also have a squad, as they do for terrorism, with a very good reputation apparently, and the two work together closely. For the G8 there were thousands of extra police drafted in, and though some would be at Gleneagles, a lot would be working around, even in Glasgow and Edinburgh and other places, doing the background stuff.

    If such an event is “down south”, extra police are also drafted in from Police Scotland. They co-operate.

    MOD have their own police, and if there was a demo planned at Faslane, as well as regular police, there would have been extra MOD Police bussed in from other installations I expect, probably from England.

    Nothing sinister there.

  206. CameronB Brodie

    I wasn’t thinking there was anything particularly sinister going on either, more standard procedure. Aren’t police cadets normally stationed away from their home towns, after graduation?

  207. yesindyref2

    @CameronB Brodie
    Sorry, my comment was a general one, not specific to you.

    I lose track of police policy of in-towners, out of towners, it did vary a bit as it was better to have local knowledge, or officers got too close. No idea which is more important these days! I think too many stations shut though.

  208. Jack Collatin

    Imagine the look on one of the Dead Tree Scrollers’ faces if he/she were trapped on the third floor of a burning building ,perched precariously on the baking window ledge and they realise that their rescuer is a clearly infirm and elderly (say 65 year old) fireman, slowly hauling his arthritic body up the swaying turntable ladder to carry the hack to safety.
    Imagine a scroller in the process of being mugged in the City Centre and two elderly constables with only the puff to walk with difficulty are the only thing between the hack and a good kicking from a young thug.
    It matters nought to these vile little Unionist scribes that they peddle lies and half truths about our Police Service and Emergency Services.
    They do vital work, and in the main, do it outstandingly well.
    The work is arduous, physically demanding, and distressing on many occasions.
    They attend fatal car crashes, control mobs of knuckle draggers at football matches, (qv the OF Hatefest 31/12/2016)and on many many occasions save our lives and preserve our security and society.
    30 years in a demanding job like that seems more than enough to me.
    They get a pension, it is argued , and that’s why they leave? Shite.
    Like footballers, their careers are short because of the physical demands of the job; and no footballer has had to enter a burnt out building with the charred remains of people inside.
    As for this ‘good pension’ claptrap.
    Every working man and woman in the alleged fifth largest economy om this planet should be retiring on a good pension.
    I ask you dead tree scrollers; how would you manage if your income were halved in your early fifties? Would you sit back and watch the world go by on your ‘good pension’?
    To attack out vital services in this way, by distorting figures, lying, and undermining the morale of serving police and fire officers( and ambulance, hospital, care workers) by printing obscene lies and Unionist propaganda like this in unforgivable.
    I hope that those involved in this latest Round Robin SNP BAD propaganda liefest who have children old enough to know better can face them in the morning.
    WE are taking our country back. Nothing you print or broadcast from now on in goes unchallenged or debunked as the lies they clearly are.
    As for Davidson Rennie and Dugdale?

  209. Jim Morris

    Re Police pension mentionned by Jack Collatin at 6.44 am. Police friends of a relative of mine pay 15% of their salary into their pension fund. The “good pension” is self-financed, and to deprive them of it would be theft. Just to indulge my conspiracy side, I believe many more “English” accents appeared to weigh the Indy vote towards Naw. For me, aye then, aye the noo and aye eyways.

  210. Smallaxe

    Jack Collatin:

    I pick my friends for good reasons(see post above).

    I hope Santa was good to you, my Friend.

    Peace, Love and Happiness to You and Yours Jack


  211. Dr Jim

    Yaay!! Three cheers for the Queen, she backs Brexit somebody overheard somebody say at a garden party sometime, and then Laura Kuenssberg reported she said it first but didn’t tell anybody right away (I want the credit I want the credit)
    But now it’s been confirmed that there was indeed a rumour that the Queen definitely might have said she supported Brexit by saying the words “get on with it” which as we all know is confirmation of the Royalist kind

    And the mentally challenged internetters and Daily Crapspressers take it all as a sign from God and believe every word of Dolly Mail drivel once again and don’t think for one single second they might be being manipulated at infant level, and we worry about Scotlands educational attainment gap, Sheesh! We’ve got a country full of geniouses compared to that lot down south

    More importantly I still know that Santa’s real (Fact)
    I said (fact) so nobody can argue once that’s been stated, no, no naw!

  212. Breeks

    I understand the inflammatory nature of the sovereignty question, and understand too why it is a taboo subject, but what conflicts with that is the absolute nature it, and absolute by strict definition. It is not a choice we can make, and it does not require democratic affirmation. We are sovereign whether we like it or not, and whether we choose to accept it or deny it. Our sovereignty is not the preserve of any majority, it is an absolute condition, irrespective of whether we recognise it or not.

    It makes a mockery of our sovereign status that Westminster is allowed to dictate to us that we have no control over broadcasting, and that we are required by law to pay for BBC propaganda. That is nonsense. If we want broadcasting devolved, then devolved it should be.

    What vexes me isn’t the current lack of any democratic mandate to wield our sovereignty independently, but the widespread ignorance and lack of awareness of the whole situation, not just amongst Scots, but throughout the UK. Clearly, a U.K. Prime Minister who believes she has the power to remove Scotland from Europe against its will is not a U.K. Prime Minister who is fully briefed about Scotland’s sovereign status. Wouldn’t it be prudent to make sure that she is?

    It changes the tone of the whole constitutional argument. No longer could the SNP be portrayed as the constitutional “home wreckers” of the UK, provoking outrage and venomous bile agitated by the media, but instead they become guardians / advocates of the truth, truth which has been set aside for three centuries to enable the Westminster Parliament to run roughshod over Scotland’s sovereign entitlements. It is Westminster which has exceeded its capacities and acted improperly, and Scotland which has been meek and submissive about letting it all happen.

    It thus strikes me there are two steps to this. The “pull the trigger” issue about enacting Scottish sovereignty outside of Westminster, but there was is also the “cock the weapon” state which precedes pulling the trigger, whereby the U.K. and quite literally, both Scotland and England is made aware of the constitutional reality, and given time to get used to what it means. (I apologise for emotive metaphors like cocking a gun and pulling the trigger, and any violent connotations brought to mind. I absolutely want a peaceful process without violence or conflict).

    However, it seems absurd to me we to have come through the YES referendum, suffered Brexit, and all the years of Unionist propaganda and media manipulation which have brought us to the the point we are now, where Scotland is preparing itself for another Indyref, and yet the greatest majority of people in Scotland, both Unionist and Independentist alike, are still blissfully unaware of the constitutional reality, and the fact we are shortchanged of our rightful status within the UK.

    I return to my unfortunate metaphor; we sought to pull the trigger for Independence in 2014, but we hadn’t cocked the weapon by making sure the constitutional reality was widely understood. It strikes me we may be at risk of doing it again.

    I agree wholeheartedly that whatever legal precedents say, Scotland’s transition to Independence should be progressive, democratic and voluntary, but how can we be confident of crossing that threshold while so many of us have such a poor appreciation of the dysfunctional constitutional reality?

  213. scottieDog

    It’s hard to envisage any public services improving in times where money us being sucked out of the economy.

    Folk have to realise that until SG has power to create money or totally control revenue from exports there is little it can do.

    Of course the mainstream mediarely on the low intellectual capacity of its followers to airbrush the facts.

  214. Dr Jim

    If there’s one thing the Britnat Government can’t take it’s public and international humiliation like the Gina Miller case, that’s driving them nuts
    It would be a nice strategy to employ against them at every opportunity, especially internationally where particularly our European cousins do enjoy laughing at the Britnats expense and their newspapers aren’t bound and controlled to do as they’re told as is the case here in Britgland

    And SKY news will repeat it as (How very dare they) news

  215. manandboy

    With January 1st 2017 coming up, the tradition of making New Year resolutions will once again be triggered for many.

    Might I suggest learning the words of ‘Freedom Come All Ye’ – after all, everyone should be able to sing their National Anthem.

  216. Les Wilson

    Breeks says:

    An excellent, thoughtful, posting.One that I fully agree with.
    We need to firm up the reality of our sovereignty at every opportunity. We need to bring it up in every media interview made by SG on our behalf.

    Long ignored and abused by Westminster, we cannot allow it to carry on. It is not dependent on size, nor population. It is meant to be an equal partnership between two countries. Currently and in fact up to now, we have been used and abused on every level. Simply, it cannot go on.

    I feel the only time it will fully come across to all Scots, would be acknowledgement through our own Scottish Courts.
    Something people will see and hear. that will encourage them to be able to say we are sovereign, and hold their heads high.
    With right comes might, a resurgence of our rightful place is more assured and very long overdue.

    It is not only Scots that need to be assured
    our abusive partner and it’s population needs to know it too.
    The SG need to see to this, address it now.

  217. Hamish100

    Ah the highlights of Call Kaye 2016 on now.

    Amazing 1st time Tory voters on cue. Strange though that 1 lady was from the Irish Republic whose main worry was —— Scottish Independence.

    Same British state broadcaster.

  218. manandboy

    We’ve had two political earthquakes in the West this year, Brexit and Trump.
    But the resultant economic tsunamis have yet to reach the shore, and many are filled with a false sense of security, saying to themselves and to those around them, ‘ Look, nothing happened after the earthquake. Everything is going to be alright. Let’s go down to the beach again.’

  219. Socrates MacSporran

    The longer I have been reading and posting on Wings, the greater has become my belief – the 56 pro-Independence MPs at Westminster are the Praetorian Guard of Independence and the Act of Union is their best weapon.

    Thanks to Robert Peffers, we know the 1706/7 Act was a binary one – which combined the two Parlieaments, the Scottish one in Edinburgh and the English one in Westminster into a new UK Parliament, still meeting at Westminster.

    We also know, and this has never been challenged, that, while the English Parliament dissolved itself, handing over its powers to the new UK one, the Scottish Parliament susppended itself, and remained suspended until Winnie Ewing formally reconvened it in 1997.

    Now HM the Queen, as both Queen of England and Queen of Scots was in the room when Winnie reconvened the Scottish Parliament, while Tony Blair, the Prime Minister of the UK was also in that room – neither quibbled with Winnie’s statement or the wording thereof.

    However, while the Scottish Parliament was reconvened, it was given only limited devolved powers, handed down by Westminster, and controlled by them. Therefore, ultimate power as to Scottish sovereignty and our place within the Union, in my view, rests, as it has since 1707, with the Scottish Members of the UK Parliament.

    I would therefore suggest, were Angus Robertson, as the Leader of 56 of the 59 Scottish MPs at Westminster, supported as he is by the majority of the MSPs at Holyrood, to tell the UK Parliament: the decision of the majority party in Westminster to take the UK out of the EU, in defiance of the overwhelming majority of the people of Scotland constitutes a breach of the binary Act of Union. Such action does not have the approval of Scotland, a signatory to the Act of Union, and therefore – Scotland is withdrawing from the Union and reverting to our 1707 position as an independent nation, he would have a very strong case.

    The situation as regrds our noble Scottish Lords might be interesting. I am sure there are still successors to the Parcel o’ Rogues still around, but, some may have died off. In any case, only hereditary peers, successors to the original Scots Lords who were given places in the Upper House of the new UK Parliament should be involved.

    Lords Foulkes, McConnell, Darling, Forsyth Laing and Co, are Life Peers, an invention of the UK Parliament – their views don’t count.

    That would surely give Mother Theresa and her gang something to think about.

  220. galamcennalath

    manandboy says:

    Might I suggest learning the words of ‘Freedom Come All Ye’ – after all, everyone should be able to sing their National Anthem.

    Yes, excellent idea 🙂

  221. K. A. Mylchreest

    @ Breeks 7:56

    It´s generally understood, here at least, that Scottish sovereignty lies with the Scottish people. Two years ago, keeping to your metaphor, the Sovereign People of Scotland were handed the loaded gun of independence … and promptly shot themselves in the foot.

    Are you saying someone nudged their arm?

    There´s a deeper point though. You talk of facts. There are physical facts which most of us accept exist out in the world regardless of what we think or believe about them, and then there are social/cultural/political facts which really do depend to a large extent on what people on the whole believe. So your assertion that Scotland is an equal sovereign partner to England, while no doubt historically correct (an historian could produce the evidence), is only legally correct if and when a court so rules, and only politically true when it is widely accepted by Scots.

    Indeed if everyone believed Scotland was a free and independent nation, then that would be the case, quite regardless of factual history (barring only its suppression by force). The importance of the historical and legal facts are primarily that they help persuade people of the ´truth´ of your assertion.

  222. Jack Collatin

    Jim Morris, on the contributory element of Police (and other public services’) pensions.
    You are absolutely spot on. They pay a high price for a fairly modest pension.
    On contributions towards retirement pensions, we were all conned by successive Governments and their graduated and incremental contributions schemes towards our State Pensions.

    We have the fifth lowest state pension in the EU, which England and Wales are about to WEexit, yet I and many others dutifully paid towards this ‘safety net’ pension for decades while working. (In my case, 45 years, give or take.)

    Yet we are now told that current workers are paying for our retirement. We are a ‘demographic time bomb’, filthy rich baby boomers.

    Lies of course, Red Blue and Yellow Austerity lies fed as Westminster and Whitehall propaganda to the population through the BBC, and privately owned broadcasters, and mogul owned newspapers.
    The State Pension? £119,30 per week. The price of a lunch in Michel Roux’s London plush London eaterie?

    £212 per head. I know this because he is reportedly charging 13% service charge ,not paying his staff the minimum wage, and not passing on the 13% ‘tips’ to his underlings.
    Your average pensioners could perhaps afford the soup and a pudding.
    We live in the grips of London SE based Oligarchy control, an Establishment which controls the printed word, broadcasting, Finance, Higher Education, the Civil Service, the Armed Forces, the actual Westminster Administration, be it of Blue Red or Yellow Unionist Hue. We hear that Empress Elizabeth is ‘purring’ at the prospect of regaining control of her Empire. We are not amused.
    Smallaxe, good to see you back.
    The greatest gift? As always checking out that the family are still ok, no matter where in the world they are.
    That and waking up on Christmas morning to the delicious aroma of Belfast Ham sizzling in a mustard honey and cider sauce. Mmm.
    Freedom Come all ye.

  223. galamcennalath

    The Scotsman appear to have messed up with this headline!

    ‘Clean Brexit’ could cost UK £24bn a year

    Then the first two paragraphs say exactly the opposite.

    The UK economy could benefit by £24 billion a year … by leaving the European single market and customs union, a pro-Brexit pressure group has claimed.

    The Change Britain group said that the option – which it describes as “clean Brexit” – is likely to deliver annual savings of almost £10.4 billion from contributions to the EU budget and £1.2 billion from scrapping “burdensome” regulations, while allowing the UK to forge new trade deals worth £12.3 billion.

    The confusion seems to have come about because Change Britain refer to what everyone else calls ‘dirty Brexit’ as ‘clean Brexit’!

    So what the group call ‘savings’, the Scotsman assumed ‘cost’!

    All that aside, this group claim ‘new trade deals worth £12.3 billion’. Is that after 5-10 years of negotiations without all the current EU deals in place? Aye, pull the other one!

  224. Luigi

    O/T Thousands celebrate Christmas in liberated Alepo:


    Mass gave found in area previously held by “moderate” (i.e. western backed) opposition forces in Alepo:


    Both headline news items, yet absolutely nothing on the BBC or in the UK press. They sure don’t like to report the awkward stuff. Makes you wonder what exactly the BBC and the “free” press are really for.

  225. Molly

    ” the rich declare themselves poor
    And most of us are not sure
    If we have too much
    But we’ll take our chance…”
    George Michael

    The biggest problem for me isn’t the funding of the public services it’s the management.

    It’s appears to be all top down with decisions being made by people trying to tick boxes to please the SG.
    While protecting their own position and pension.

    Caught in the middle are long experienced staff damned by a management limited and caught up in producing results ( which management also benefit from)

    And a public whose confidence is being undermined by an aggressive media.

    Throw into the mix, changes made ( on their behalf, how kind) to a pension they were promised was one of the best 30 years ago and the financial uncertainty – no wonder folk are retiring while they still have their health and something that resembled their original pension.

    In a Scottish context many of these managers in the public services and councils are if not rich, very well rewarded – yet how many of the public are aware of the impact they have on their daily lives/services?

    Call me cynical but for folk who certainly would never vote for Independence far less vote for the SNP, there seem to be an awful lot of ‘ managers ‘ aspire to get a job with the SG.

  226. Cuilean

    Watching Star Wars over Christmas I had a quiet laugh that the Imperial Empire (the baddies), always referred to the freedom fighters as the ‘separatists’.

    If our ‘Imperial Masters’ pull that stunt again during Indy2, we’ll all be there in costumes to give them a full Praetorian Guard escort up to the Concert Hall!

    The Imperial Masters walk from Central Station to the Concert Hall was definitely my Indy1 highlight.

  227. carjamtic

    Jack Collatin @ 06:44

    Nailed it,great post.

  228. galamcennalath

    Luigi says:

    They sure don’t like to report the awkward stuff. Makes you wonder what exactly the BBC and the “free” press are really for.

    They do seem to like to take a consistent line on anything, then only report stories and claims which fit it with their existing narrative.

    This could be for several reasons, the obvious being they have a political message to promote and stick to e.g. Assad bad, rebels not bad. Perhaps, it’s all part of modern dumbing down where they feel the need to simplify a very complex situation. Just as likely, it’s sloppy journalism where thorough investigation and analysis takes time and resources.

  229. geeo

    The tories clearly do not do irony…..

    “Government Minister Chris Skidmore said..”the government view is that electoral fraud is not acceptable at ANY level”.

    Well, apart from when it’s 39 tories, who are under POLICE investigation yet NOT suspended from the Tory Party…. ….obviously !!

  230. Breeks

    K. A. Mylchreest says:
    27 December, 2016 at 9:58 am
    @ Breeks 7:56

    It´s generally understood, here at least, that Scottish sovereignty lies with the Scottish people. Two years ago, keeping to your metaphor, the Sovereign People of Scotland were handed the loaded gun of independence … and promptly shot themselves in the foot.

    Are you saying someone nudged their arm?

    There´s a deeper point though. You talk of facts. There are physical facts which most of us accept exist out in the world regardless of what we think or believe about them, and then there are social/cultural/political facts which really do depend to a large extent on what people on the whole believe. So your assertion that Scotland is an equal sovereign partner to England, while no doubt historically correct (an historian could produce the evidence), is only legally correct if and when a court so rules, and only politically true when it is widely accepted by Scots….”.

    But it already has been ruled… indirectly. In the 2011 Supreme Court Case between AXA and the Lord Advocate. To cut a long story short, AXA contested whether the devolved Scottish Parliament could enact laws, and the Supreme Court ruled it could, but further, that Scottish sovereignty expressed though its elected voice at Holyrood was not something which fell under the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court and was thus something it could not overrule. The pending Supreme Court Case regarding Brexit is likely to come to a similar conclusion… if it even goes there at all.

    With regards to Scotland shooting itself in the foot, we’ll yes, that pretty much does sum up Scotland voting No in 2014, and as for having its elbow nudged, I would say the disgraceful conduct of the media, and BBC in particular did indeed amount to such a thing.

    What confuses me is where legislation can exist on the statute book, be recognised and legitimised as indeed Scotland’s sovereign status was, and yet be ignored by those who find that sovereign power inconvenient. It has not been repealed, therefore it remains legislation, and applying the law can only deliver one interpretation of that law. The issue for Scotland is not what the law declares, which is unambiguous, but the bizarre convention whereby the law is ignored.

    Why should it fall upon Scottish sovereignty to prove it exists, when it existed without contest or ambiguity prior to the Act of Union? Doesn’t it fall to Westminster to account for how the Act of Union reconciles the obvious incompatibility of Scotland’s civic popular sovereignty with England’s divine sovereignty?

    What is the point having any law at all if robust, certain, and unambiguous legislation can be superseded by faulty ambiguous legislation which professes to do a thing which cannot be done? Isn’t that saying the law does not require to be competent, merely accepted by popular convention? Isn’t that akin to “making things up as we go along”?

  231. Graf Midgehunter

    @ Breeks
    Les Wilson
    Soccerknees MacSporran

    IMO I think we’re starting to get to the crux of the problem in Scotland.

    The large majority of the people here are just simply not aware of the real constitutional situation and the real power that the people hold in their very hands.

    ” widespread ignorance and lack of awareness” says Breeks. And that is exactly what WM and their Gauleiters/troops/media/Beeb want to keep that way.

    “Ignorance is bliss” and to keep it that way they direct us to yoon manipulated propaganda about anything else that you can think of.

    If the websites of the SNP or SG were attractive and interesting then they SHOULD have pages explaining the Sovereignity, A.o.Union, roles of SP. WM. the Queen. A couple of pages about the Scottish economic area – waters/oil/gas.
    All with downloads for further use.

    Important: a copy and explanation of the McCrone Report as well as a page about the 6000 sq/miles of Scottish sea “loaned” to England.

    As already said, these facts should be brought up on every interview, article, Parl. question times. At every opportunity. (sigh..)

  232. Dan Huil

    The SG has to do something special to wake up the x-factor zombies. Political martyrdom if neccessary.

  233. Robert Peffers

    @Footsoldier says: 26 December, 2016 at 10:26 pm

    ” … I also see increasing reference to this in the letter pages of some newspapers from people I know to be SNP members.”

    You post that as if it were abnormal for some numptie members to clack their gums together in complaint. May I point out that there always will be those who do not agree with party policies.

    They usually haven’t a clue as to how the SNP is democratically run. Most members do not agree with every party policy but that is normal in a really democratic party.

    Here’s the thing, Footsoldier. There will always be such people who carry membership cards who do not have a clue as to how the SNP, as a party, works.

    There is only one political party in the entire United Kingdom that is really democratically run. The hierarchy of the party does NOT make party policy. They will certainly greatly influence the party policies but each one of them has exactly the same number of votes as any other card carrying member and it is National Conference who decide party policy – not the party office bearers of the elected to office councillors, MSPs, MPs or MEPs.
    In a democracy you expect the members, (all of whom have only one vote), to accept the majority decisions.

    How policy is decided in the party works like this – any member can move a motion for a new policy, or an amendment to an existing policy, at branch level. If that motion is seconded then the policy will put it forward to Constituency Association level. Unless, that is, there are counter motions or amendments.

    In which case the branch will debate and vote on the matter and then it passes to Constituency level where the same procedure is gone through and eventually the motion or amended motion goes forward for Annual Conference to consider and the same procedure is debated and voted upon by the delegates at conference.

    Yet still we get members, who never attend meetings, and never take part in policy forming meetings thinking they know best and mouthing off to the detriment of the party and hence the entire independence movement.

    This is the totally democratic SNP you are complaining about and not some dictatorial top down Westminster Unionist outfit.

  234. Fred

    Judging by the mooth, Laura Kuenssberg is another ex-taxi driver. (see Sarah Smith)

  235. Tombee

    In 1971 I joined the then, Edinburgh City Police, after demob from the RAF, where I served a 12 year engagement. About that time there was panic abroad at the number of officers in the police generally, who were about to leave due to retirement age. These officers were those who, of considerable number, joined the Police Force after war service, some of them at any rate were.
    On reaching Tullialan for my recruit training, I noted that the intake ahead of mine was full. The intake I was a part of was full. The intake which came behind mine was also full. So panic, it would appear was short lived. I suspect that there are a majority of officers leaving the Police Scotland Service, who will be leaving due to retirement age. Also bearing in mind that retirement for costable and Sergeant rank is 55 years of age, (unless an extension is granted by the Chief Constable).
    Taking into consideration the size of, and greater numbers in, the single National force. The numbers retiring or about to retire, having served their full term, will be greatly magnified.
    There is of course always the exception to the rule, as officers may well be leaving for other reasons. For example as I was 30th years of age on joining. I could only serve 25 years and retired at 55 years of age. Old enough for any officer to be who is engaged on front line policing. In my opinion.

  236. K1

    And finally…some graphic perspective*

    *Warning, this image may seriously damage further the already batshit insane credibility of this so called ‘news’paper that produces pish articles full of verifiable lies whose sole aim is to rubbish Scotland and all our sectors for no other reason than SNP BAD!

  237. Breeks

    I agree Socrates at 9:31, but there are two flies in that ointment; the 2014 referendum result which must be held as a more immediate expression of the public will, and second, that Unionism in all of its extreme forms, from UJ neds waving flags in the streets to hysterical journalists, must not be given cause or excuse to agitate trouble and dissent, for we must surely expect they will try.

    That is why I think clarification and recognition of Scotland’s sovereignty cannot be allowed to lead directly to Independence, but should instead lead to a “suspended” constitutional status, a “void” transitional status, pending a constitutional plebiscite to determine where we go next.

    I have said that it cannot lead to independence, but in reality it must by definition do exactly that, because only Independence is compatible with our inalienable and perpetual sovereignty, however to keep the peace and diffuse impassioned arguments, the plebiscite has to offer an “alternative” Act of Union; some kind of hybrid constitution to preserve the Union as far as humanly possible, but simultaneously reconcile the very problem of Scottish sovereignty which bedevils Westminster today. What this means I believe would be an Act of Union similar to our membership of the EU. Essentially, that’s a UK condeferation of nation states, Scotland and England.

    Naturally, as a firm advocate of Independence, I want Scotland to take its sovereign place upon the world stage, and be true and faithful to itself. My preferred option in the plebiscite would be an Independent Scotland with sovereign control over full EU membership. However, as Graf M. is saying, we are finally getting to grips with the nitty gritty issues and ramifications of our constitution and sovereign status. Sovereignty is something vital in the debate and central to it, but something which barely broke the surface in 2014.

    Another feature of this approach to the constitutional debate which never happened, is that once the sweet (or bitter) pill of sovereignty has been swallowed, we enter into a phase of discussion beyond our disputed sovereign status, and that situation could be a radical and exciting place for all of us, because it will no longer be a Unionist versus Separatist agenda. The option before us would be a consensual Union which respects our Scottish sovereignty, (in short, Unionism which Yessers can readily live with), or vice versa, an new Independent Scotland well disposed towards a competent and consensual Union with England, (Independence by technical default, which isn’t the humiliating defeat of Unionism, but a thing which also empowers Scotland to reestablish the boundaries and choose to renew its vows with England, or choose to part, but part on amicable terms without acrimony.

    That void status I mention, where the only certainty there is, is the founding principle that our inalienable and non transferable sovereignty is sacrosanct, provides us all with a carte blanche opportunity to redefine our country, but do it properly, with due and diligent legal competence, with all ambiguity and duplicity removed, and ratified properly by a democratic mandate delivered a plebiscite deliver the constitutional option the nation prefers.

    Yes, of course we would still have to sell the idea of a fully independent Scotland to undecided voters, but with carte Blanche menu, the Unionists would similarly be required to articulate their case for Union; another missing facet of the 2014 debate.

    Settle the technical issue of sovereignty before the debate about independence even starts, and we might actually sit down and start speaking to each other constructively. Something else which didn’t happen in 2014.

  238. Grendel

    “Socrates MacSporran says:
    27 December, 2016 at 9:31 am
    The longer I have been reading and posting on Wings, the greater has become my belief – the 56 pro-Independence MPs at Westminster are the Praetorian Guard of Independence and the Act of Union is their best weapon.”

    Would that it were so simple. I have long stopped believing that all of those 56 are working diligently, night and day, to put themselves (and sometimes their family members) out of their current jobs.
    Would someone whose long term aim was always to be an MP and with no other life skills really be busting a gut to do away with that job, with no post at Holyrood to fall back on?
    If we are so gullible as to believe that then we will get what we deserve.

  239. K1

    Many of those 56 did not have a ‘long term aim’ ‘always to be an MP’ Grendel?

    Quite the opposite, many rose from the grass roots and found themselves because of their passionate belief in an Independent Scotland and their engagement during the ref, with their diverse skills and background, pushed forward as candidates at that time. Remember this was on the back of the No vote and the astronomical numbers joining the SNP once we knew for sure the ‘fit up’. Labour fatally wounded itself during the ref, these were not ambitious and driven career politician types striving for the comfort of a pension.

    So I dispute your cynicism, although there will be the temptations and the usual wanting to do well. But they are very much fighting like troopers in their capacity as representatives of their own constituencies here in Scotland. I would like it if you furnished us with evidence to support your claim that they are not ‘working diligently, night and day’?

    Further, perhaps it is that we do not get to hear much of their work as Scotland does not have a media which reflects back to us our true state of affairs, but your assertions seem based on believing that narrative and if this is indeed the case then it is your own gullibility that needs examined with regard to being ‘taken in’ by those whose only aim is to diminish and obscure the diligence and rigour of our our MP’s, MSP’s et al.

  240. Grendel

    K1 says:
    27 December, 2016 at 5:41 pm

    Further, perhaps it is that we do not get to hear much of their work as Scotland does not have a media which reflects back to us our true state of affairs, but your assertions seem based on believing that narrative and if this is indeed the case then it is your own gullibility that needs examined with regard to being ‘taken in’ by those whose only aim is to diminish and obscure the diligence and rigour of our our MP’s, MSP’s et al.”

    Some of the statements on social media display breathtaking fawning and gullibility- mine ISN’T one of them. Local knowledge plays far more part in forming my opinions than “the media” of which I hold in universal low regard anyway.

  241. Liz g

    Breeks @ 5.21
    I can see what you are saying Breeks.
    But I can’t see how it would ever work.
    The Union only ever made some kind of sense when Westminster was full of feudal landlords who had interests in both countries up to and including defence of the Island.
    Other than that there is no framework that I can see that would work.
    One Country has to be disadvantaged.
    England has the numbers….So straight democracy as we know to our cost won’t ever work.
    It would also take a very brave Politician to suggest that half of all tax was Scotland’s or what is raised in Scotland stays in Scotland.
    If that’s not on the table then what’s changed?

    Scotland has all the resources….Why would it share them and not sell them.
    Why should Scotland’s resources support England espically since anything the public fund gets sold off.
    But more than that because of the type of resources that Scotland has,that would be handing over a lot of power to this side of the border.
    The balance would totally shift.
    I can’t see the English electorate tolerating that.
    They could not stand to be in a Union with Europe mainly because they were not in charge.
    Take back control could develop a whole new meaning down south,and not in a good way.
    Westminster has no intention of making changes to how it’s run,and there is no demand that I can see, from the English for it to do so.
    This means that all the upheaval would be seen as pandering to Scotland… Again.
    Why would they go for it?
    Us that want Independence don’t want to try a new settlement.
    The English public as far as I can tell aren’t fussed.
    So all this would be to keep around 30% of Scotland from having a hissy fit.

    We are never I think going to get control of all that is ours as part of a negotiated Union,they have it all just now and will not part with a thing that they don’t have to.
    And as you well know there are a fair few in Scotland who will help them do it.
    We have seen Westminster’s version of Devo Max,of leading the Uk and have seen how broad it shoulders really are!
    Also if I was on the other side of the border I would be shouting about the tail wagging the dog.
    Because the voting system would have to change so radically to reflect Scotland’s Equal Status it would have to disadvantage and devalue the English vote.
    There really never was a Union and IMHO there really never can be,the sad thing is that both Countries could have been in the European Union, which is about as integrated as it’s possible to be to be fair to both Countries.
    But a Union with just Scotland and England was and is never workable.
    At least we can say we gave it enough time to see if it could work,but as you know it never did.
    Anyway I think that as soon as Soverenty and all that it means becomes common knowledge who in their right mind would ever agree to a Union, espically with Westminster?

  242. Weechid

    donald anderson says:

    26 December, 2016 at 10:54 am

    “Don’t forget that there are plenty of people who believe all this drivel from the GB Media.”

    Yup, I had a visitor last week who went on about the Scottish Government ruining the rail service in Scotland. Thanks to the Wings article on the same subject I was able to put her right.

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