Context phobia
Alert readers will know by now that there’s nothing the Scottish media – and the Scottish Daily Mail in particular – likes more than printing scary-sounding figures with no context whatsoever by which people could judge how big or small they really are.
Nothing’s changed today (other than a rather sneaky inset shot of an old story about a different statistic which misleadingly makes today’s one look like a big increase), so rather than bang on we’ll just fill in the blanks: ScotRail runs around 760,000 trains a year, so this year’s cancellation figures amount to about 3.5% of all trains.
Which is to say, around one time in every 30 that you go to get a train it’ll have been cancelled and you’ll have to wait for the next one, which on the average commuter line will probably mean 15-20 minutes.
Which is still a pain in the hole, of course, but if it’s such a high number ask yourself why the Mail is so pathologically averse to simply telling you what percentage it is.
We’ll see you again with these figures in a few weeks, folks.
Isn’t it about time that this ‘newspaper’ came out of the closet and changed its name to what it really stands for – The Anti-Scottish Daily Mail !
Scottish Daily Denigrate
Your daily dose of doom and gloom for just 70p.
Should you ever be in any doubt that you and your country are just, well, shit.
Scottish *newspapers* print 100% crap in a *Decade from hell*
Before the SNP took over, Scotland was veritable paradise when Labour were in charge
We remember it well
You might have missed this one – understandably with everything that has been going on – but on 20th April Michael Blackley published an astonishing piece in the Scottish Daily Mail, under the headline “Buy a new boiler ….. or face a huge fine”.
The whole thing is underpinned by the drive to lower emissions from our homes, but includes such phrases that will give home owners a good night’s sleep such as “Details of the punishments for failure to comply have not been revealed, but are believed to include fines and restrictions on sale of properties” (ie you wont be allowed to sell your house). A Quango will be set up and so on and so forth.
After the first half dozen or so paragraphs it gets a wee bit more sane (not difficult) and references start to be made to a “report”. It is though only right at the end that it becomes clear that the proposals are made in a report that has “been conducted independently of the Scottish Government and provides an impartial view of the options. We will carefully consider the findings …..” and once we have consulted with local government will set out their next steps. Even the Tory spokesman says they should be more bold! But not that you would know that from the first few paragraphs!
Here’s a train journey that’s on the right tracks and will not be cancelled.
53.(of 60.)
Passenger announcement for those travelling by Free Caledonia Rail
“Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome aboard this Free Caledonia Rail express service to Independence, which is the end of the line and where this service will terminate.
My name is Nicola and I am your chief guard on this train today. We started out from Essennpee at 19:34 and we will be calling at the following stations: Ewing Central, Devolution Halt, Parliament, Referendum Junction, Fortyfive Central, New-vote and Independence.
Please note that owing to outside engineering work on the line, this could slightly delay our journey to our final destination.
Additionally, work in replacing the track by outside contractors in the Devolution Halt area will mean that we will be shunted off the main track and find ourselves in the sidings for some time.
However, please bear with us, as we hope to be back on the main track before too long and making up for that lost time. The train will pick up speed again after leaving Fortyfive Central.
We wish you a pleasant onward journey with us and we thank you for travelling with Free Caledonia Rail.”
______
Parables for the New Politics
2012-2019
I still haven’t forgiven Beeching. Pity the newspapers don’t get more incensed at why Scottish infrastructure resembles a colony.
Excuse me for commenting, it will not now happen often, but I have not seen any Wings comments about the important, “National”, article by Nicola Sturgeon about the path to Scottish Independence. Did everyone on Wings miss it? I wonder why.
Ah! Well! Back to lurking and watching.
It does need context. Like, it seems to me, Network Rail have – rightly – become more aggressive on cutting down trees lining embankments. But once they move in, some trains if not all would be cancelled at times, for obvious safety reasons.
It’s also possible Network Rail are doing more than before, in the way of preventative maintenance. Short-term loss for long-term gain.
Not everyone’s a villain, apart from reporters who don’t do their job of – reporting.
Scotland is shite…when are you Jocks going to believe the ProudScotsButters of the Fourth Estate Fifth Column who are basically a talentless bunch of Winston Smith agents of the Anglo Iron Heel Oligarchy who own the media and who are determined to lie distort and threaten Scotland back in to colony status.
When the history is written in Independent Scotland, their names will be Mudd.
Anything for money like a one trick shyster.
England is going down the plug hole. We are not going with them
Get that into your evil little heads.
Threaten one, you threaten us all.
I say they “Network Rail” move in, but they use contractors for the cutting and disposal. Network Rail themselves would do the safety and any track straightening.
That’s still too many cancellations though, no matter how its reported. And on the ScotRail routes I use, there is no next service in 15 or 20 mins… Quite a large area of the SR network does not have the E-G type frequencies enjoyed by many in the Central belt or suburban Glasgow.
yesindyref2 says:
22 April, 2019 at 12:30 pm
It does need context. Like, it seems to me, Network Rail have – rightly – become more aggressive on cutting down trees lining embankments.””
……….
They were cutting down trees along the railway lines last year. If I remember correctly the UK Government had given NR extra money to fund it. But it came to a stop when people down south objected to the trees being cut down and the UK Gov pulling the money that was supposed to fund the programme.
So ‘leaves on the line’ may still be a reason for delays although I have seen some signs that the programme, or truncated version thereof, may be underway again.
[…] Wings Over Scotland Context phobia Alert readers will know by now that there’s nothing the Scottish media – and the […]
Nigel says:
22 April, 2019 at 12:36 pm
That’s still too many cancellations though,…””
……………..
Much of the apparent increase in cancellations is probably the result of the industrial action taken by train staff from October through to the start of December. They stopped working on rest days in pursuit of a claim to be paid the same as drivers for rest day working. Drivers are paid £300 for working rest days.
Of course the decision to take this ‘action’ had nothing to do with the announcement by Abellio in August last year that they were going to take on 140 additional staff in an effort to reduce the amount of rest day working.
Then there was the late delivery of the new electric trains from Hitachi which contributed to the number of cancellations and delays to the introduction of the new, speedier service.
@Legerwood
They were doing it round my way recently. It’s not so much leaves on the line, though that’s a problem – they get compressed by tons of metal on narrow wheels and get slidey.
It’s trees falling, branches coming off, wind blowing brances and overheads together and they don’t get on very well!
One answer is to scrap HS2 or HSx, and spend the money instead on the existing network. And trains. Not a glam project for attention-seeking Westminster politicians though, and sadly ours follow suit as well. I mean, shaving two minutes off the Glasgow to Edinburgh train, like, wow.
Is it beyond the wit of engineers to fit blowers to the front of trains to blast the heaviest fall of autumn leaves from the tracks at peak times?
Just saying.
I recall reading about a links golf course which suffered badly from sand blown up from the beach on blustery days. The solution was to send up a helicopter to blow the offending sand back onto the beach.
Or am I just being stupid here?
In 2018, 7.6 %of the trains in France were cancelled. Is this another reason for Brexit?
How many of the cancellations are due to work being carried out by Network Rail. Network rail are controlled by the Britnat state are they not, it’s a reserved power so to speak.
SNP government are not allowed to renationalise the railways in Scotland, and if they were, would English controlled Network Rail still be in control of the actual technical side of the system working or not as they are now?
Devolution is a farce, the masters in England’s government have Scotland under their big bullying colonial boot. Didn’t the Labour London based, UK party refuse to devolve powers to renationalise Scotland’s infrastructure?
Scotland only has roads because the land thieves needed to get to their mansions and move the sheep around Scotland’s countryside. Scotland’s infrastucture is only just being brought into the 20th century, nevermind 21st century.
The Brit colonial masters spent Scotland’s revenues on infrastructure in south of England, bugger the Scots!
Ther’s an excellent book, by Christopher Harvie, called, ‘Deep Fried Hillman Imp, Scotland’s transport’. Argyll publishing, 2001. Very eye opening about the neglect and refusal, by the Britnat state, (under their rule including and importantly Labour’s reign at Holyrood) to improve, upgrade, or expand Scotland’s dire transport system.
There would be NO Borders rail line, and No new arterial bridge across the Forth if the Britnats parties had their way. Utter disgrace. Only the SNP have begun to invest in Scotland’s transport.
Just as a note, when I came to live in Edinburgh thirty years ago, worked in Glasgow, there was one train an hour if you were lucky, to get from one city to another, and it was over an hour train journey, so when they cancelled them, it was disastrous.
Now it’s brilliant, trains are running all the time, must be every few minutes, and the express runs every fifteen minutes. That’s how it should be.
Scotland’s fine. It’s Abellio that’re shite.
Does anyone have the worst year cancellation stats for when it was FirstGroup?
Jack Collatin, blowers no good, needs to be high pressure water cannon and because of the volume of water required it needs to be a special train.
Simply isn’t economically viable to run them on all lines every day.
link to networkrail.co.uk
It’s all part of Scottish unionist exceptionalism, they believe Scotland is the only country in the world that is totally incapable of running or having the institutions that every other country takes for granted.
Scotland can only survive if it uses another countries money, and even more precisely it is only one other countries money that would work, the use of any other currency would lead to disaster. They warn that using the Euro would result in the loss of control, somehow forgetting that currently we are effectively in a currency union with another country in which we have no meaningful control
I know some will say the pound is also ours, but I don’t consider a currency that you have virtually no control over as ‘our currency’.
As someone who rides NYC subway on a daily basis.. I’d love if the MTA’s delay/cancellation rate was only 3.5% …
O/T but Scotland Union green ink scribe Keith Howell is attacking Rev Stu and Wings in Edinburgh Evening News letters page to-day.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Leaves on the line cause problems for the railway – here’s how, and what we’re doing to reduce the impact
link to archive.is
Artyhetty @ 1.22pm
If you want the most recent info on Scotrail Performance and a breakdown of who is responsible for delays you will find it here
link to networkrail.co.uk
It compares performance in Feb/Mar 2018 to same period in 2019. Scroll down to see a pie-chart breakdown of who or what was responsible for delays.
Why was there no SMSM news about the FM’s, “Path to Victory”, article?
This is all I could dredge up from the mud that is the SMSM:-
link to thenational.scot
Any I saw not a single mention of, “The Path to Victory”, article by those on this forum who have been castigating the FM/SG/SNP so frequently over the years. In fact several of them have still been harping on about the FM/SG/SNP in the last couple of days.
Perhaps they just prefer reading, “The Scotsman”, to reading, “The National”.
Jack collatin says:
22 April, 2019 at 12:58 pm
Is it beyond the wit of engineers to fit blowers to the front of trains to blast the heaviest fall of autumn leaves from the tracks at peak times?””
………
See Mike Cassidy’s post at 1.38pm which contains a link to a very good article on how leaves on the line are dealt with which includes specially adapted trains to clear the lines
@Jack Collatin
link to networkrail.co.uk
“Network Rail Scotland look after Scotland’s railway and infrastructure, including the world-famous Forth Bridge which connects passengers in Fife, north of Edinburgh, with Edinburgh and the Borders. The ScotRail Alliance was formed in 2015 and is a close working relationship between Abellio ScotRail and Network Rail Scotland Route. The aim is to improve the railway in Scotland for passengers and businesses by working better together. While remaining separate companies, both organisations will work to achieve common aims and objectives led by a single managing director and senior management team under the ScotRail brand.”
and then
link to hitrans.org.uk
It’s a fluff piece of course, but the two parts of rail, operator and network are not totally unco-ordinated!
The story also does not mention how many of the cancellations were caused by network rail. Nor does it say how many were caused by trespassers, vandals, lorries hitting low bridges. And various other things out with scotrails control. In fact only about 39% of the delays and cancellations are attributable to scotrail.
STV luchtime news giving James Kelly a London Labour branch office lackey at Holyrood plenty of airtime on its anti-SNP/Scottish independence “news” programme to run down Scotrail.
I loathe the “Scottish” media.
When I was at Engineering College, we were told that a good performing machine would hit 96 %
Efficiency!
Congratulations to the SNP government for running the best performing rail network in the UK inspite of having the most difficult geographical area and years of under investment from red and blue Tories over decades.
Rev, Thank you so much for all of your wonderful endeavours!
The idiot Dugdale and Corrupt Sheriff scenario must have taken a
Lot out of you so please do try to get a break and we will soon need
You more than ever.
Happy Holidays!
Robert Peffers
Keep posting, auld yin.
Don’t let the epistemologists get you down!
@ Robert Peffers – GMS on Sunday morning mentioned it and had a studio discussion about it between 8.05 and 8.20. I put a link up on a previous thread.
No SNP person was there. Peter Duncan (Tory), Gerry Hassan and Shona Craven, a National journalist – she at least knew what she was talking about.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
But you are right, I haven’t seen any analysis on WoS comment thread. Yet. I have not read the article either. Yet.
Spring comes late to these high pastures – all in good time. why not kick it off?
RepublicofScotland , you are far from alone in your loathing – I would love to know of any other country which puts up with the kind of denigration , lies and spin as this .
Was in the countryside yesterday and it was gobsmackingly gorgeous!
Sorry I missed the bikers easter egg run but thanks to those who put up video of the event as the BBBC nor STV bother their bahoochies to give it prominence , I suppose that’s because the many folk who give up their time to do it might ( heaven forfend!) give Scotland a good name
Never in all the time I have cheered then on have I seen decent coverage by the two ‘Scottish’ channels – despite the fact that on a couple of occasions , thousands left the carpark opposite both broadcasters.
I am wondering if it was ‘our’ Cactus who put up one of the videos –
It gets one wondering why anyone in Scotland bothers to tune in , though maybe with the Nine having low viewing figures somebody might begin to think that they are not most popular with the populace.
There is a logic to the yoon’s fear of context, which enables “inductive” reasoning and strengthens judgement. Subsequently, yoon hacks will avoid providing context as that would empower their readership to conclude that they are reading partisan pish.
Learn more about Inductive Reasoning
link to sciencedirect.com
A link to this article about a report written by Murdo Fraser was posted on fb today. He thinks the UK should become a quasi-federal state after Brexit to stop separatism!
brightblue.org.uk/federal-state-separatism/
I’ll try the link again!
link to brightblue.org.uk
This purging of context has huge significance, as it impairs reasoned logic and good judgement.
Structuring inferential reasoning in criminal fact finding: an analogical theory
link to academic.oup.com
I wonder if the stats take any notice of the geography, and the proportion of single lines. So with summits of 460m, 400m and 310m, at Drumochter, Slochd and Beattock, weather problems are going to be significant.
I’ll guess not. Objectivity won’t be one of their strengths.
Time for some Philosophy of Science?
The Material Theory of Induction
link to pitt.edu
Not enough rope, not enough lamp posts for the servile North British media…..figOuratively speaking of course ?
Robert Peffers
Regarding the FM and SNP.
There’s been too much talk, too many announcements and little or no action.
I no longer have any expectation of indyref2 or a plebiscite election. I feel the FM is just stringing us all along.
Of course, I would love to be proved wrong. But won’t waste my time reading the FM’s thoughts or more announcements about announcements.
OK, they were sledgehammers, here’s a lump-hammer. 🙂
Introducing Critical Media Studies
link to researchgate.net
Re, leaves on rail tracks
If my memory serves me well, weren’t steam engines (well. some of) fitted with a tube affair that blew sand onto the rails to increase traction.
So many train stations in Scotland don’t have as many as thirty trains in a day
Without context, rational thought is impaired and moral judgement is harmed.
link to tandfonline.com
Its in the “Daily Racist” , where CHURNALISM brings a whole new level of depravity.
In an Indy Scotland this gutter, scum, bigoted garbage should be banned from shops/outlets.
Nothing more to say.
Thank you Welsh Sion at 12:12
A pretty good description of the route to independence. Expected future hazards will no doubt include “leaves on the line” (establishment dirty tricks), snow drifts (‘now is not the time’) and misreported delays on our ‘national media’ but we have the momentum now to keep going to our final destination.
Goodness me I hadn’t realised just how lucky I was all those years ago when the branch offices were in Government at Holyrood.Not one train broke down,they all ran on time the fares never increased blah blah blah.
It’s utterly pathetic listening to these tired out old dinosaurs in Labour desperately, absolutely desperately trying to pin every problem with our train network on the SNP. The sad thing is they actually think we’re listening.
Dr jim 11.34am. Absolutely. Some of us know who were in government in Scotland when bathgate,ravenscraig,mining industry,shipbuilding all happened under their watch. Clue! It was’nt the bad essenpee. We remember you lying liebor troughers alright.
Gary 45%. I remember when i first came down to england in the early eighties, i would always buy that sh***rag for the scottish football roundup. No internet/social media then. Never bought one since 19th sep 2014. Seen the error of my ways, but as my old dad used to say, you cant put an old head on young shoulders.
Graham B @ 5.20pm
And thank YOU for the acknowledgement. It’s good to know I’m not just typing into the ether.
You’ll have noticed that I have another 59 pro-indy stories/allegories like that one. Feel free to contact me off topic if you’d like to read/share any more.
Scotland’s railways do perform better than in the rUK, but they could be in a much better shape. Under-investment still plagues the network. Literally every study undertaken for new lines and stations has grossly underestimated passenger numbers subsequently realised. THE SG could be onto a winner of they focussed more on reopening railways and electrifying existing ones. Sure they have a small number of projects, but the spend on rail has been a fraction of that allocated to the Aberdeen bypass, A9 dualling and other big road projects. Railways are still popular and are well used if properly invested. I just wish the political will was there. 🙁
The SNP Gov builds and improves railways, roads and bridges. The unionists/greens oppose them. AWPR, Queensferry Crossing saving emissions, time and expense by 2/3 ie 60%. Cutting travel times/working days by 2 hrs. Improving conductivity.
Here’s another lump-hammer. This stuff might be hard going but these are the scientific tools needed to rid ourselves of partisan media.
Text, Context, Pretext
Critical Issues in Discourse Analysis
link to epdf.tips
Built the Borders railway. Improving Edinburgh/Glasgow. It would be good to cut journey times, in the North and Scotland instead of spending £Billions on HS2. A total waste of moneyed. Instead of cutting journey times throughout Britain. To rival flight times. A better more comfortable journey. Intercity to intercity centre.
OK, “The Material Theory of Induction” might have been a bit OTT. 🙂
I get your point but the thing is Abellio Scotrail are underperforming. The context is of course that the SG have little or no power over the rules of rail franchising which are essentially a license to print money whilst under very little obligation to provide a good service.
They increase profits by running the thing on a shoestring – permanently understaffed, no spares etc so the service to the punters is shite and if they do start loosing money they can hand back the keys and walk away from their obligations with little financial consequences.
So yes, wrong to imply it’s all the SNP’s fault but IT IS A MESS.
I’m not suggesting folk strive to become critical practitioners of political philosophy or linguistic science, I’m simply drawing attention to the relevant knowledge.
The Scottish Daily Mail is harmful to Scotland’s social cognition and should come with a health warning. Simples.
Book Review: Text, Context, Pretext: Critical Issues in Discourse Analysis
link to journals.sagepub.com
@luigi
There are projects to electrify existing lines.
link to egip.info
Once electrified to dunblane, hopefully perth/dundee/inverness/aberdeen will be logical extensions in future years.
Likewise a dual line to inverness.
OK, re. trains and their operation.
BRITISH RAIL PRIVATISATION ~ COMPETITION DESTROYED BY POLITICS
link to bath.ac.uk
Luigi says:
22 April, 2019 at 6:16 pm
Scotland’s railways do perform better than in the rUK, but they could be in a much better shape. Under-investment still plagues the network. Literally every study undertaken for new lines and stations has grossly underestimated passenger numbers subsequently realised. THE SG could be onto a winner of they focussed more on reopening railways and electrifying existing ones””
………..
A quarter of the rail network in Scotland is electrified which is not bad considering that electrification just a few years ago was non-existent. The Cumbernauld line was the first to be completed – in 2014
And the programme is set to continue.
link to transport.gov.scot
Rail electrification is estimated to cost £250 million to £500 million for each of the five phases.
The Aberdeen bypass was a fixed price contract of £745 million. The A9 dualling has an estimated cost of £3 billion.
Something doesn’t sit right about those figures.
They give the total for cancellations and delays as 3.7% But that seems to be the figure for delays the Rev worked out. Which seems a bit odd. It’s as though they’ve inflated the problem by dropping the word cancelled and hoping no one will notice.
More on trains and their operation.
A public future for Scotland’s Railways
How public ownership could be the start of a transformation in Scotland’s transport system
link to tssa.org.uk
And a bit more on trains and their operation, for those uncertain of public ownership.
The Privatisation of Infrastructures in the Theory of the State:
An Empirical Overview and a Discussion of Competing Theoretical Explanations
link
link to ecpr.eu
The rail service is terrible just now. I’m surprised it’s not been in the news more often.
Scotfail should be ashamed. They’ve been cancelling loads of trains daily going through Fife.
Apparently it won’t get back to normal until Decemember according to one of the station staff at Waverly.
And a bit of backstory.
Rebuilding Rail
Final Report June 2012
link to transportforqualityoflife.com
@ Tatu3 says at 3:44 pm … ”A link to this article about a report written by Murdo Fraser was posted on fb today. He thinks the UK should become a quasi-federal state after Brexit to stop separatism!
link to brightblue.org.uk
It would make you laugh and this from a Scot! So-called that is. They just don’t get it, do they? One of his four key recommendations is as follows:-
“A new English Grand Committee would finally resolve the West Lothian question, allowing the people of England for the first time a proper voice within the institutions of the UK, distinct from that of the UK Government.”
@Legerwood
Electrification down my way (Ayrshire) was done in the 80s!
Scotland in Union house economist Ronald McDonald spouting usual rubbish in Daily Telegraph regarding currency options.
Petra says:
Hmm, is he serious or just trying to ‘having us on’?
Many of his colleagues have a more probable solution in mind ….. the UK could become a quasi-fascist state after Brexit to stop separatism, and clamp down on any other democratic notions.
yesindyref2 @ 7.50pm
The Ayrshire line was electrified in the 1980s but my reply to Luigi was on his specific point about the SG doing more with regards to electrification not historic schemes that did not lead to a wider roll out of electrification across the Scottish network.
Electrification of the Airdrie-Bathgate line around 2010 was one of the first of the current on-going programme of electrification promoted by the SG
@ Jack Collatin, blowers no good, needs to be high pressure water cannon and because of the volume of water required it needs to be a special train.
Simply isn’t economically viable to run them on all lines every day.
link to networkrail.co.uk
The SNP cancelled GARL. Sitting on the buses spewing emissions on the M8 is an SNP Tory idea. Then of course they like the bus oligarchs.
OT..
Can I just take a wee minute to point out to any kind Wingers who donate to food/clothing/baby banks,that Sun Screen is horrendously expensive for young parents 🙂
It should be free for kid’s in low income families, or better still every family should have income enough to afford it!!!
Petra @ 7.39 pm
Re: Murdo’s proposals:
… … the designation of an English Grand Committee composed of all MPs representing constituencies in England.
– That’s us Celts telt, then. The Welsh Grand Committee has always been populated with some MPs from constituencies in England. ( Maybe you can clarify if the same has applied in Scotland.) Will this situation pertain if Murdo’s proposal gets off the ground – or will the Welsh Grand Committee only consist of Welsh Members? He doesn’t say.
– Nor would any UK Government want representatives of devolved governments who are separatists, and thus committed to the disintegration of the United Kingdom, to have a right of veto over policies that would affect the entirety of the UK.
– So … in a situation where you have a Nationalist Government elected by the people of Scotland (and, hopefully, Wales) – it’s called ‘the will or the people’ or in Greek, ‘democracy’, Murdo – do you intend that these peoples’ representatives are debarred from taking part in discussions …
Murdo avers that ‘separatists’ can’t veto policies that affect the entirety of the UK … yet, by his own lights, he wants … ” a QMV system, with weighting to reflect the relative population of the component UK parts, and a representation for England …”, which given the weighting he proposes, gives undue representation – a veto – to England, a veto moreover over a policy which may be beneficial to Scotland and Wales (e.g. control over migration numbers), but which England does not want.
And then there is this problem of the composition of the UK Government as overseeing all this bright, new, shiny democracy. There is no mention of allocating Members to it (Cabinet) on a pro rata or equal representation from Scotland, Wales and England. We will all retain our national Secretaries of State (whoopee-do!) England will get its own SoS, I guess. What of the other SoSs? Are these all going to be ‘pure UK’ representatives? Unlikely, they will be fighting for their own part of UKanian territory, and in any case mostly figure as England’s proxies. The Celts will be outnumbered, talked out and rendered ineffectual – as usual (Alun Cairns, David Mundell, anyone?)
Did Murdo issue this on 1 April? The Cottingley Fairies – whose photos were recently auctioned off – were shown to be a hoax. I put it to Murdo Fraser that Federalism, particularly that which panders to an English (imagined sense of) grievance is likewise completely useless. And to think it’s a so-called Scot who is proposing such imbecility …
Nothing short of independence for Scotland and Wales (and England too if it wants shot of us both) is good enough by now. Now that, Murdo, is truly representing your people. And we the good people of Scotland and Wales are going to win it for our own people.
@Legerwood
Ah yes right, that context thing again 🙂
And a bit deeper in to the backstory of trains and their operation. Remember neo-classical economic theory is old-skool pants and rational choice theory is undermined by the fact that folk simply aren’t rational economic agents.
Sorry for the length of this post but I think it provides valuable context.
Hi peeps
Why are not all railways in Scotland electrified?
Is is the Union Dividend?
Better together!
CameronB Brodie. It was a long saga! The railways were not really in a bad state prior to privatisation. Even Michael Cho Cho has stated this. The privatisation was merely for profit. It was also the death of many by accidents due to lack of maintenance by rail track. The money made by the original train stockholders was phenomenal and they never did supply new trains. If you admire capitalism the bus and train industry was the best ever sell offs. The job loses in the bus industry were around 100.000. And did the SNP get any donations from that industry!
Mad Unionist
I’m old enough to remember British Rail before privatisation and it it suffered from under investment and rent-seeking unions. I’m not a fan of Thatcherism, simply providing context. You, however, appear to ken feck all.
I do agree that the privatisation of much of Britain’s public infrastructure, was ideologically driven and harmful to public finance and social well-being.
Train planning in a fragmented railway: a British perspective
link to dspace.lboro.ac.uk
The key word is “context”.
We will never have a balance press while we remain in the Union. It is a relentless campaign of negativity
What sort of regulatory state do Scots want to live in, one that employs a written constitution to support a “right-based” approach to government? Or a regulatory state that has developed a blind eye to the rule-of law, is institutionally integrated with global financial corruption and money laundering (see City of London)? What sort of regulatory state will Brexitania be, given it is founded on political corruption conducted by the New Right?
CameronB Brodie. Who is Ken?
Mad Unionist
Dinnae ask me, I dinnae ken. 😉
yesindyref2 says:
22 April, 2019 at 9:02 pm
@Legerwood
Ah yes right, that context thing again ?
…………..
Aye, your a wee sweetie right enough.
……….
Mad Unionist @ 9.24pm
British Rail was awful. Old rolling stock, infrequent trains, ever rising fares with no improvement in service and ever more frequent strikes – one day strikes whose effects were felt over 3 days – culminating in a complete shutdown of the entire UK network in July of 1982 or 83 just as Scotland went on holiday.
Passenger numbers were falling throughout the 70s and early 80s. It was not until Mrs Thatcher’s employment legislation took effect that BR started to improve. Fewer strikes. Increase in passenger numbers and improvements in the frequency of trains.
Mrs Thatcher did not want the railways privatised so it did not happen until after she left office.
Railtrack was the privatised company that took responsibility for the track but used outside contractors so all the experience of BR engineers was lost. The Potters Bar crash in 2002 was the end of that system – Railtrack was insolvent. Network Rail was formed to take over but had to build up the in-house experience lost under Railtrack.
Network rail is effectively a nationalised company. It has debts of more than £45 billion. It receives an annual direct grant from the Government of around £4 billion.
Over the last 6-7 years the majority Train Operating companies (TOC) make direct payments to the UK Government, under the terms of their contracts, that are sufficient to cover the subsidies paid to the other TOCs and leave the Gov with a ‘profit’ in each of the last 6-7 years of several hundred million pounds. Usually the TOCs that receive subsidies are the smaller companies such as Scotrail
The Office of Rail and Road produces an annual financial statement which sets out all of these figures.
If people are proposing re-nationalisation then they had better take a really hard look at the sums of money that will be involved
@Legerwood
“Ah yes right, that context thing again ?
…………..
Aye, your a wee sweetie right enough.”
Emmm, it was a pun on the title of the thread, not about you.
Legerwood
I wasn’t trying to give rail nationalisation the hard sell,I was simply trying to provide context. It’s all a bit pie-in-the-sky without indy.
The cost of the tendering process of buses and trains is only something that Ken would Ken.
‘Privatisation’ is a Blue Tory mantra, enthusiastically taken up by Tory Blair and Clunking Fist, hence the ‘red;’ Tory jibe.
Thatcher’s diktat was ‘public bad, private good’, and from the get go she sold off everything she could to her pals in the City. Remember Tell Syd?
Gas, Electricity, the Prison service, air Traffic Control, you name it the Blue Tories sold off the ‘Family Jewels, a Supermac MacMillan decried in Parliament.
It is part of the Blue Red and Yellow Tory Grand Plan to destroy our civic society and return it to Edwardian penury for the many, riches for the few.
Nothing is safe in th3e hands of the Red Blue and Yellow Tories. Our NHS, Police, GP service, roads, railways, air sea rescue, well, just about any publicly owned, financed and staffed organisation or service has been and will be sold off.
They hate the thought of a powerful body of public servants, well paid, unionised, with pension rights.
The Postal service was sold off by that sinister little man Vince Cable to his pals in the City at a knock down price, and none of the Unionist Parties in WM batted an eyelid.
Remember Cameron’s ‘Big Society’ nonsense, where he painted a picture of Hoi Polloi relying on charity and handouts just to eat heat and be clothed.
15 years ago, nobody had heard of Food Banks, now Baby fucking banks.
Zero hour contracts on low wages were the brainchild of ‘privatisation and ‘Arms Length’ Red Tory Council contracts.
It was Blair who announced that there was no such thing as a ‘job for life’. Fuck the Many then, Tony.
WE get the services the Oligarchy allow us to have, because our lives depend on Spanish French and Dutch ‘companies’ running things, rather than services owned by, financed by, staffed by, and accountable to our own citizens.
Come the Revolution, guys, we must drive the carpetbaggers ,big land owners, Robber Barons and Pay Day Loan shysters from our land.
The essentials of life, water heat food a roof over our head a steady income health, public transport, and so on are not ‘commodities’ to be sold like Mars Bars for big profits.
It’s time to put a stop to this madness now.
Private Bad, public good.
@ Legerwood – I have a very different recollection of B.R before privatisation. I travelled a lot by train without any problem. The Tories and Labour starved BR of investment for decades which caused deterioration.
AFAIK most European countries run public service transport. Switzerland is a good example of an integrated system.
Re cost of renationalisation. This could have been by Labour c 2005 when the franchises came up for renewal. Simply let them lapse.
It seems to me to be complete folly to privatise a national network of any kind. It is a natural monopoly. Operators will just act as a cartel.
Is it not true that the public spend far more now on the privatised rail system than we ever did on BR?
As many know, you can gauge my rage by my typos.
Why would we put up with this any longer.
Capitalism globalisation and privatisation have been massive failures for the Many, but not the Few.
It is time to act now.
Education is the cradle of culture, so it is a concern that the New Right have been shaping England’s education system for decades now, along narrow, homo-economist, utilitarian lines. A veritable infusion of reactionary, right-wing, ideology in to the fabric of English culture. There will be no alternative allowed, apparently.
Scotland is doing better in providing a balanced education, and must ensure everything possible is done to protect our EU membership and a pluralism of economic thought in our schools and universities.
link to jceps.com
Jack collatin. Excellent post, on the money.
BBC say Nicola will update Parliament on Wednesday afternoon.
Nicola Sturgeon to issue Brexit and indyref2 update – link to bbc.co.uk
The UK shaped education by sending children to different schools and the people accepted this. My Mrs went down the same lift in her multi storrie with her cousin and they walked seperate ways. Fortunately they are not divided as was intended by the State.
Some more on the restructuring of the neo-liberal “regulatory state”.
link to tandfonline.com
Petra @ 0739 pm “ new English grand committee proposal” . I thought that we already had one called “ the Tory Downing st. Cabinet” ??
*Nationalisation* because Labour and the Unions did a great job of that
I remember its smell well
The Grand Committee
This was originally a proposal by Helen Liddle, Michael Forsyth, and Michael Moore, and they’re not even kidding
Ffoukes is behind this as well, as if he doesn’t get enough cheap drink in the HOL he wants one here as well
They said they had the experience to understand Scotland and we needed that to help run our country because the SNP don’t have enough apparently,they did offer to have elections over it though, Pete Wishart smiled because he was chair of the Scottish affairs committee that day
I doubt whether I could have just smiled
Dr Jim @ 12.09
Thing is, the world has moved on, old chap.
Central Heating, electrified lines, the Common Herd not being treated like cattle, the Great Unwashed crushed by their betters…
The Old Days of Steam and workers dying of industrial related illnesses and disease, asbestos, hardening metal using arsenic, working ’til you drop, should be a thing of the past.
The world has moved on.
To compare ‘nationalised’ industries of the ‘fifties and ‘sixties with 21st Century technological advances is the usual canard of the ‘private best’ lobby.
If we have publicly owned services and institutions staffed by public servants in well paid valued jobs with security and a living pension at the end of working life, rather than carpetbaggers paying peanuts for profit, then our world will be a better place.
Zero hours cleaners, catering staff, porters…
Pay peanuts, hire monkeys.
Who gives a fuck about public service? Certainly not the Rees Moggs of this exalted world.
The Red Blue and Tory way.
Let the Market decide?
It did, and we are plunging into Edwardian serfdom with a Ruling Class sitting atop the dung heap, the rise and rise of the Rentiers, and the Oligarchy closing ranks and stifling progress.
That’s what Brexit and ‘taking back control’ is about.
Ignorance is Strength?
Why would a train driver not have a well paid ‘job for life’?
Well, why not?
Other countries have ‘nationalised’ public services, why not Scotland?
I remember going to the lavvie on the stairhead and wiping my bum with cuttings from the daily record and express. The poor were very right wing in those days although they did not know it. Personal hygiene was not good and that is why we old Unionists are still around.
Happy St George’s Day, I’d forgotten.
And of course, Dr Jim, this is not the right day for Sturgeon to give her update, tomorrow never dies.
Here’s one for those who suggest re-nationalisation of Scotland’s railways would be prohibited as EU members.
link to theconversation.com
Mad Unionist
I left a reply to you on the previous post, re. sovereignty in the EU.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Dr Jim @ 12.22
I think he smiled because he Knew that they are desperate to sell “New Act’s of Union” ….
We all know it’s the TREATY of Union that’s the problem…
AND we are never going to shut up about it!
# Dissolve the TREATY wasn’t really a feature in 2014, (but it is now) about all we got was, “if the Union didn’t exist, would you sign up to it again?
A campaign tactic that, IMHO, was grossly understated.
Not this time though…
All the British Nationalists saying that we need to have a “Federal UK” should be getting asked…..
Are you willing to Desolve the TREATY of UNION and then Discuss it???
Because nothing less changes anything,if we, (Scotland) are going to sign up to a new UK. Then the old Treaty has to go where old Treaties go to die, otherwise the new proposals are as fake as the old 2014 Vow…..
We need to be shouting this from the rooftops,before the British Nationalists seduce the soft No voter’s into buying what they are selling…
Because it all they have now,and they’ll punt it!!!
Aye, it’s their St George’s Day, today
Ain’t it strange how schgoogle’s homepage today, recognises this annual English date, yet on oor Saint Andrew’s Day last year… there was no similar recognition for Scotland. If aye remember correctly they featured some famous lady’s 700th+ birthday or other instead, shocking
Right England, dae yerselves ah favour, put down and stop waving around that ukUnion flag fur just a minute eh and replace it wae yer own Independence for Yes England flag – yay
Here’s a question for the people in England on ur special day…
Independence question for England:
“Would you like England to become an independent country again?”
Available options for answers:
– Yes
– Naw
– Not sure / don’t know / spoiled paper / where am I?
– Keep things the way they are (by stealing Scotland’s resources)
Get on yer ain train and go figure, England
@Jack collatin 12:59am
The world has moved on but *Britain* and it’s oldies haven’t
and they’re the ones who still run it and vote
Get rid of *Britishness* and the mindset and you have a chance
I’m quite some time retired now but am an expert in my field of digital musical technology because I moved from analogue 30 years ago and still spend time doing it, but in my age group I’m an oddity because most folk my age don’t learn anymore because they don’t think they need to, so when it comes to new technology old folk don’t like it, they want the same old stuff but better and don’t want to embrace the idea of new better stuff
Removing the mindset of what was or what people thought was, isn’t easy but unfortunately governments are run by people my age and even older (House of Lords)
The Japanese have done it pretty well but even they are still coping with two societies where we’ve just got one big mess
Independence is the first step then the work has to be put in to create change
@Liz 1:58am
You’ve gotta laugh at them though with their federal nonsense it’s another sign of desperation from the *British* it’ll be a VOW next that they give themselves more votes on like the Myth Commission
*We’ll give you more powers Scotland* they said then the three *British* parties voted against the very powers they vowed to give, and not one newspaper or TV news channel mentioned the fact the whole deal was a confidence trick perpetrated on Scotland’s people
Scotland can be Independent and I bet money the English won’t federalise their own country they’ll keep right on doing what they’ve always done, making promises they never keep
@Cactus
England should be Independent and stand on its own two feet instead of Scotland’s sair backs
Aye Dr Jim it would do them good on the long run
link to youtube.com
It’s like carryin’ aroon’ ah bag a coal on yer back
Sing!
The idea of the British union is dead, long live Brexitania. So where does Scotland’s future sit as a result of the full-English Brexit? What does the Scottish Law Society have to say about the way the human rights of Scots are at risk of abuse by Westminster?
link to journals.sagepub.com
Regarding our railways, all we need are ALL of Scotland’s levers to make THIS and all else work for Scotland, ah can imagine a toon with Cairnstoon Hamish in the train operators shed with his paws on the auld track-line-wooden-changer-levers, Yes that could look nice in sepia colours
Hmm, mibbies they’d be metal levers, not wooden like 🙂
link to youtube.com
Lever 17 is…
For the pleasure of all the new readers that huvnae seen THIS one:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
It’s awe aboot dem fiscal levers, folks
And being in control of them all
Dr Jim @ 2.31
Aw, Dr jim
I am so looking forward to the day the”British Nationalists” in Scotland stop being deferential to their “Landlords” and start working out that they are much better served by…
Bringing their Government within slapping distance..
The Westminster Government is never going to serve Scotland,and the quicker they works that out the better!
Hey Cactus …. 🙂
The time is vital…. We’re looking for the answers ….
Nicola needs to go cold… 🙂
And to let us know…
OT
Nobel Peace Prize winner, Mairead Maguire, accepts GUE/NGL Prize on behalf of Julian Assange
link to youtube.com
Happy St George`s day to all our English guests,
roast beef and mustard and jellied eels for dinner,
stand up and free yourselves from the Scottish yoke,
Independence for Englandshire.
A true Year from Hell would be forced to read the Daily Heil every day. Worthless, pro- fascist, imperialist scumbags.
Am I the only one missing Nana’s links?
Always informative… In many ways a better news source than all the mainstream press combined!
Davosa ,I think a year from hell would be being forced to read the Herald in its current form.
I had a brief jaunt over there and SNP BAAAAAAD is in overdrive.
All the crap with which they can attempt to force feed the populace is there – it makes me wonder what their circulation figures have told them , how far they have plummeted, not far enough for my taste!
David P @ 8-30
Nana said she was taking a break, expect her back anytime soon.
Donald Trump is getting his state visit at last which is making him happy because he has many words to tell us, and many of them really good words, some of the best words in fact, and he knows them and thinks we’ll be very surprised at how good his words are
I’m really sure we’ll all be impressed by President Trump, because he says so with his really good words
Brent Crude $74.23
Poor wee stupid Scotland, doomed, doomed we are.
Well, we will be if we don’t get away from this full English Brexit.
Greens are dishonest says Scot goes pop’s James Kelly
Greens slammed for demanding SNP voters vote for them in the Euro elections
Why do the Greens not target Labour Tory or Lib Dem voters (we have to) say SNP voters
Richard Leonard talking usual p*sh in Scotsman on rejecting both Scottish and British nationalism . His English internationalism stops at Dover and Berwick.
Anyone else having trouble accessing Business for Scotland web site, as keep getting “Error establishing a database connection”?
Happy St Jordi’s Day to all our Catalan friends.
(This Welsh dragon has to negotiate Luton town centre, the home of the English Defence League today. Wish me luck.)
Sky news reports 8 out of 10 doctors in NHS England and Wales are burnt out according to a poll, with up to 10% suffering mental health problems
Safe in their hands said the Tories
Not reported in Scottish newpapers, apparently they don’t want to tell us that
Wonder why
” BBC Scotland bosses have defended their new channel after audiences for one edition of flagship news show The Nine dropped to just under 9000 “
link to thenational.scot
Scotland doesn’t need alternative ‘fringe’ programming, it needs to have some of the London centric, often irrelevant output on BBC1 replaced by more relevant Scottish material.
The original concept for the SIX was that it did in fact replace the London six o’clock news. The idea was to report world and European events from a Scottish perspective.
The new BBC Scotland channel will be deemed to expensive and be closed. That will declare, no demand.
@ScotFinlayson
If England has an authentic patron saint it is St Edward the Confessor. George, about whom according to the Catholic Encyclopaedia next to nothing is known, there may have been more than one, and whose exploits possibly derive from late pagan folk mythology was at the English Protestant reformation the only permitted saint, hence his survival.
His legendary militaristic imagery acquired from the Levant at the time of the Crusades and latterly imported to England served during conflicts with Scotland and France.
The vagueness and uncertainty surrounding the St George legend is so very English. Great noise about something of little substance.
Context phobia from Stu’s twitter, a superb example
link to twitter.com
Brent Crude Oil,which is the type found in Scottish waters and considered the bench mark for quality,is trading just of $75 per barrel,
could go down could go higher,
has been well over $50pb for nearly 2 years with a high of $85pb,
the average price over the last 40 years is just over $50 pb,
nearly 1 billion barrels taken from Scottish waters each year,
40,000,000,000 barrels X $50 = 2 trillion dollars,
that`s $2,000,000,000,000,
we are basically being robbed blind by the crooks of Westminster and their Big Business bankers/lobyists.
Jack collating @ 12.59am
“”Why would a train driver not have a well paid ‘job for life’?””
Train drivers working for Scotrail are earning just over £47,180 plus overtime and rest day working payments (£300 per day). They are paid £26,813 during their training year and probationary year post-training.
They are by no means the highest paid drivers.
Some of the Train Operating Companies down south such as Virgin West Coast are paying drivers £65,520 plus overtime etc. in 2018 while Customer Services Assistants are paid £28,789 and their line managers up to £33,000.
Not sure how much I could trust a politician that tries to deviously replace the Treaty of Union by one that effectively gives our sovereignty to another country, makes me question where the loyalty is placed.
The ‘new treaty’ gives the power to the unionists, they want it impossible to ever have independence, it’s like the 1979 choice but on steroids. The unionists would only need 34% of politicians to stop it ever getting to a vote.
We need to ensure when the next vote happens these people who lied to Scotland about the powers it was going to get are highlighted. They lied to you in 2014, they are lying again.
The English education system under the Tories.
Early April brought news of a school in West Yorkshire that has introduced a once-a-week “dark day” when all the lights are turned off. I’m actually going to write that again. Early April brought news of a school in West Yorkshire that has introduced a once-a-week “dark day” when all the lights are turned off.
link to archive.is
And a direct link to the article revealing the ‘dickensian’ cost-cutting initiatives.
Including one school being told it should keep half the money its pupils raise for charity.
link to archive.is
Legerwood @9.53 am
‘Collating’ here:
And your point?
Private best because they are getting a decent wage? Until the company goes bust, or there is a round of ‘downsizing’, ‘rightsizing’, and profits matter more than service or people’s livelihoods?
My point, as the intelligent but deliberately lightheaded wooden top you contrive to be buries under the train drivers’ wages quote, is that the ‘essentials’ of life in any modern caring society, like health, public services, utilities like water and energy to heat and light our lives, security of employment, and freedom from eternal threat from Oligarchs who see all of this as a commodity on their Market Place under the control and influence of the Invisible Hand of unfettered Free Trade, is how a civic society should run, not Rees Mogg’s Monopoly Board.
The failures of privatised services since Thatcher are legend.
And we, the mugs keep giving the Rich more of the wealth of Scotland to store in their private vaults.
We are being robbed blind, and we just sit by and let it happen?
Look at the wedge a train driver is getting in take home pay.
Really? Really?
I would drive them from our land tomorrow, every last man and woman jack of them.
And the Robber Barons and their ilk.
Capella @ 10.47 PM
I commuted to Glasgow by train in the 1970s. The carriages were holdovers from the days of steam – corridors and compartments seating 6 or 8 if you put the arm rests up. Quite good in the winter because you could huddle together for warmth.
The train in the morning was often late due to ‘the late running of the train ahead’. Strikes, one day ones, were frequent usually in pursuit of a pay claim. Fares increased annually but no compensation if train did not run because of strikes.
The reason I remember the shutdown in the early ’80s was that I was due to travel to York to attend an OU summerschool but had to go by bus and return by bus because they were still on strike.
I started commuting again in the late ’80s. By then the employment laws had kicked in so hardly any strikes. There had been some investment in rolling stock and, more importantly, an increase in the frequency of the trains driven no doubt by the increase in passenger numbers.
I did not see any point in privatisation at that point. There was a clear improvement in the system and it looked as if it would continue albeit slowly. However, the Tories post-Thatcher were determined to push it through and botched it.
I commuted by train post-privatisation in the mid-’90s and again in the noughties by which time privatisation had bedded in. I still travel frequently by train. Overall I think privatisation in its current form edges it over nationalisation even with the improvements see in the late ’80s.
Labour did very little to fix it other than to bring Network Rail into being and it is Network Rail that is the major recipient of subsidies although in the past 10 years or so that has been cut by around 40%.
There has also been a huge investment in new rolling stock and on the back of that several new train manufacturing companies have opened up in the UK eg Hitachi.
There are also more people working on the railways than under BR. The major expenditure of the TOCs is on salaries.
I (respectfully) disagree with the interpretation of context in this case. Looking at it as ‘one time in every 30’ is assuming that the trains that are canceled are completely random/mixed across all routs and times. Unfortunately this is not the case. Some routes are getting it much worse than others. The cancellations are concentrated on some routes and at the busy periods.
As a result, my wife has experienced cancellations more days than not. I personally have also experienced four canceled trains in a row leading to waiting more than an hour in Edinburgh with two very tired children.
Context is important. But it is also important not to ignore that averages don’t necessarily show the whole picture.
The Great Dictator – David Haymsn – Scottish Independence.
link to youtube.com
@ Legerwood – you seem to have had n unfortunte expereince of ril in the 70s. I won’t lunch into the ghastly experiences I have had since privatisation wxcept to say, IMO, it is an expensive mess.
The rest of Europe retains its state owned railways. In some there is a devolution to regional, but still publicly owned networks.
If anyone wonders what it is like to travel on efficient, clean and cheap public transport I recommend a long holiday touring Europe.
link to tssa.org.uk
Oops – sorry abut typos. I seem to have lost my aaaaa key!
Scot Finlayson says
Another way to look at it. That ~$50 billion worth of oil. More in a good year.
So what has gone wrong? This article from last year clarifies …
link to businessforscotland.com
State owned railways.
In China at the moment, couple of weeks ago made a journey off 600 kilometres for £20 of course on high speed train 250 to. 300K per hour. The passage way on the train was constantly washed and swept clean. Dread coming home to the pigsty that the unionists Havel mashed of Scotland.
Have made of Sjcotland. ffs
Capella @ 10.45 am
I was not alone in my experience of 1970s BR.
Yes, many European countries still have state owned railways and offshoots of some of these state owned companies are over here running rail franchises in the UK.
Now ask yourself this: if the positions were reversed could you ever see BR doing that running rail services in other countries?
Jack collatin says:
23 April, 2019 at 10:21 am
Legerwood @9.53 am
‘Collating…””
…..
Predictive text strikes again.
Not news, the EU say the Withdrawal Agreement negotiations have been completed and won’t be reopened.
link to uk.reuters.com
… and still the Loonies in London discuss making changes.
@ Legerwood – well I don’t see why BR couldn’t have run rail services elsewhere. It would have needed adequate funding by the Westminster government. Underfunding was always a problem but the expertise was certainly there. It’s the Dutch state owned Abellio which runs Scotrail services here. It’s the German state owned DG which runs the Arriva services down south.
I’m tempted to provide a litany of the disasters which followed on privatisation in my experience. But I won’t. The fact that no other European country has followed the UK example is sufficient, IMO.
I can only recommend travelling in Europe to experience the huge difference in levels of service. Or go via Youtube!
Trainspotting Swiss style:
link to youtube.com
Nationalised/ing railways. Then, and now (well near future).
Then – run badly, by British!! Rail (British government)
Now – run well, by an Independent Scottish government
BIG difference.
galamcennalath says:
23 April, 2019 at 10:51 am
Scot Finlayson says
nearly 1 billion barrels taken from Scottish waters each year
Another way to look at it. That ~$50 billion worth of oil. More in a good year.
So what has gone wrong? This article from last year clarifies …
link to businessforscotland.com
To my mind, this is a scandal just as epic as the McCrone report, and yet we all shrug our shoulders. I just don’t know what is wrong with us. It isn’t cowardice, or frustration but a horrible sense of forlorn impotence… what can we do?
Just imagine the impact it would have if Scotland changed places with Norway for one single year… then just imagine that windfall happening every year.
Just imagine too that a renewables industry extracting limitless, clean environmentally sound energy, and exporting that surplus to mainland Europe indefinitely. With appropriate foresight and planning, Scotland could have both an oil fund, and a renewables fund, making Scotland richer every day, even if every one of us stood still.
What a curse this Union has been for Scotland, yet there are still those who would forfeit more and more until we have nothing.
I am so heartily sick of this same forlorn impotence, bickering amongst ourselves while our attitude towards the Union reeks of supine appeasement.
We should crowd fund one of those millennium clocks and have it ticking over how much revenue Scotland loses every day compared to Norway. Did I say one? Have loads of them above our motorways and congested ring roads where people have time to think.
The Soviet troops destroyed the morale of the German 6th Army at Stalingrad broadcasting “Every seven seconds, a German dies in Stalingrad”, and then an ominous countdown… tick, tick, tick…. It was effective in destroying morale because the German soldiers knew it was true.
Thousands of trains cancelled in Liverpool alone!
Major Liverpool train station CLOSES for TWO MONTHS – starting from today
LIVERPOOL’S main train station has closed – and will stay shut for another eight weeks.
By Nicholas Bieber / Published 2nd June 2018
It’s not 1 billion BoE per year, even at 365 days per year at 1.7 million per day in 2018, it’s 620 billion.
link to ogauthority.co.uk
Not sure if that 1.7 million a day though is per calendar day average, or on production days.
Or even peak day production.
So, announcement tomorrow at Holyrood re: indyref plans.
The 3 branch office accounting units will be fuming tomorrow !!
Now they have to explain why they were talking mince about there not being an indyref any time soon because they said so…oops 🙂
re. Scotland’s political inertia and submission to English Tories. Time for some Evolutionary Psychology and stuff?
link to journals.sagepub.com
@yesindyref2
There was a forecasted 5% increase in production expected for 2018/19 by oil and gas producers.
Posted a link to it a while back, but can’t find it.
I’m sure the barrel/day production was a daily average figure in said mentioned article.
As you say, not 1bn but imagine that hitting an independent Scotland’s treasury !!
And more being found all the time, and thats before exploring West Coast basin potential.!!
The Mail is a mendacious bumrag of a paper but, as someone who has commuted by train for the last 20 years, the last 12 months have been the worst I have ever experienced with the highest number of cancellations and delays. To dismiss this out of hand is just as wrong as exaggerating the problem
Which lead to.
Political Psychology: Inequality & Prejudice
link to lse.ac.uk
Of course, one shouldn’t forget the negative light the indy movement has been refereed to, for decades now. This misrepresentation of our desire for rational self-determination, has lost much of its’ power due to technology, but it is the last weapons the yoons have. Their argument is one of prejudice and fear, as contemporary British nationalism has nothing to offer Scotland other than more exploitation.
Social psychological research on prejudice as collective action supporting emergent ingroup members
link to onlinelibrary.wiley.com
@geeo
Indeed, it’s a ferociously large amount.
I just correct because we need to be accurate, not exaggerate – leave that to the Unionists is what I think.
In case folk are interested, there is a post of mine @1:53pm that goes in to the science of Jockholm syndrome. It is caught in moderation, for some reason.
@ CBB – have you checked for a banned word – eg r*pe? Not sure how many there are.
Capella
I think I’m just being too busy, there’s no banned words that I can see. 😉
Posted this on wrong thread doh
New panelbase poll , looks like its for SNP or to co-incide tith SNP Spring Cnference. Amongst questions asked aside from obvious are ones regarding OBFA and transgender issues.
See all this talk of Independence, that’s the oil run out again
See if we never mentioned Independence ever again do we think they’d be nice to us, thought not!
If we banned all *journalists* from Independence statements and events do we think they’d write anything different, thought not!
Afternoon Capella ~
SO true about the trains in Helvetia, here’s a journey up Mount Rigi, we went there once in winter, it was a white-out up top back then, there is a whole new civilisation living up there in them mountains, some view frae the tap 2
link to youtube.com
iScotland can do anything and everything
We would have a better train service if Westminster was not ripping Scotland off. All those hundreds of billions of oil money going south over the last 50 years and potentially another 100 years more.
What words can you use to describe Scots who have lied to the Scottish public over the last 50 years. They said in 1979 oil would run out in the mid eighties. They said in 2014 oil was finished – at best 5 years left.
In summary:
1. The original oil fields Brent/Forte from the 70s are still producing and Forte forecast to continue for another 20 years.
2. New oil fields are producing oil – Clair Ridge is forecast to be bigger than Forte/Brent. 30 new fields since 2015.
3. The UK gov is currently selling off exploratory licences for a large number of areas West of Shetland that are forecast to be in production for 100 years.
4. Unexplored areas north of Scotland and down the west coast are still there as a future possibility.
This is a robbery on a massive and unprecedented scale. No voters please wake up.
I repeat no thanks voters please wake up. You have been lied to – swallow your pride – open your eyes to the facts.
Norway is one of the richest countries in the world. Scotland has even greater resources. No voters you are sending Scotlands wealth down to London to benefit non – Scots.
It is my opinion that we have allowed the Britnat media/politicians to convince independence supporters to play down the value of the oil removed from the North Sea to date and potential future revenues. That is what the Britnats want.
The truth is that there is loads of the stuff and loads of revenues. It’s time the truth was shouted from the rooftops – not softly stated in a cringe like fashion. It’s like independence supporters cannot believe it themselves the extent to which Scotland is being ripped off.
Well believe it.
Scotland is being ripped off.
Breeks idea of the clock counting how much oil revenues are going down south is the type of thing needed.
It’s about time all those liars over the last 50 years are also called out. All those Britnats complaining about this or that service not being good enough but at the same time promoting the union that takes all the oil revenues from Scotland.
The wholly successful exploitation of North Sea Oil & Gas is down to the blanket suppression of its existence, as with the McCrone Report, kept secret for 30 years, till 2005 when it was ignored, presumably under instructions from Downing St..
In the politics newsmedia, oil and gas are rarely, if ever, discussed, while politicians avoid the subject. It is true to say that Theresa May, by her silence, is apparently pretending that the North Sea Oil & Gas Industry doesn’t exist.
Forget Trident nuclear missiles, State Propaganda is by far the UK Government’s most important weapon.
It is depressing to realise how many of Scotland’s educated classes refuse to believe in Scotland’s vast mineral wealth, while insisting we are so lucky to have the Barnett Formula charity handouts.
Just completed a YouGov poll which asked specifically about independence and Scottish Elections including the EU Election.
Hi Cactus – great video. Maybe the ScotGov should send everybody to Switzerland for a holiday with a travel pass. Trains, buses, boats all co-ordinated and affordable. Why? Because it makes life so much better.
You can’t drive to Zermatt. you have to park down the valley and take the train to Zermatt where you can get around on an electric bus or a horse and carriage.
German lorries travel through Switzerland on their way to Italy. But they have to get on a special train (the Swiss built the railway specially for this) and pay to train the lorries through Switzerland thus saving their motorways. The drivers get to relax and sleep then wake up in Turin etc.
Swiss engineering is first class too. We could learn a lot from them. And people live right up the mountain slopes. Not like Scotland where the population was cleared and herded into the cities.
Oil is it, Scottish oil is it, you can bet yer TOP dollar it is.
iScotland’s Oil will be a 100% bonus coming in
It is also God’s oil:
link to youtube.com
We’re leaking it out by the gallons…
Capella Yes indeed, that’s the kind of things unrestricted international independent countries around this world do… we look around and see how other places function, then take some of their good ideas back HOME with us, to model, customise and form as part of our own clever transport network infrastructures and way beyond. Then we continue to assess, review and improve upon it (if necessary)
As each unrestricted international independent country continues to learn, share and implements what works for itself… aye give reference to the following…
“There’s no limit to what a man can do, or where he can go, if he doesn’t mind who gets the credit.”
THIS can only begin when Scotland becomes iScotland
Capella @ 12.36 PM
I am well aware of the state owned companies from Germany and the Netherlands who run rail franchises in the UK. That was my point. They tendered and won contracts to run these services but the idea that BR could have done the same whatever the money poured into it is not credible.
I am also well aware of train services in Europe since I have travelled by train in many European countries as well as in China, India, NZ, Canada and the US. Therefore I do not require the third-hand experience of a YouTube video to know that they have their good points and their bad points. Just like the services in the UK.
yesindyref2 @1.56pm.
Absolutely, the numbers involved are huge enough without making them bigger, and therefore rubbished by opponents and hard to defend.
So why did the UK make such a bad job of managing the oil income? Why didn’t it follow a ‘Norway model’ and ensure maximum income for the state? Why does it appear to have handed it all over to oil companies?
The answer is probably very simple and goes right back to the ‘advice’ the UK government received in the McCrone Report. Scottish oil is an existential threat to the continuation of the UK. It was/is absolutely essential that the true value of our oil is hidden from us so the UK could survive as an entity.
The the UK had adopted the same approach to oil as Norway did, the UK itself would have dissolved decades ago.
Keeping things in context aye…
Question:
“Is Scotland an unrestricted international independent country?”
Answer:
Nope, Scotland is currently a
unrestricted internationalindependentcountry————-
Should the Tories try to take Scotland out of Europe, that’ll change to “Scotland is a
unrestrictedinternationalindependentcountry”Given half the chance, the Tories would try to have us as:
“Scotland is
aunrestrictedinternationalindependentcountry“————-
Scotland’s goal:
– To return to being an unrestricted international independent country
Seeing as how this is another CORE issue, I hope I can interest folk in wafer of Political Science. Remember, much of British cultural history is one of supremacist expansionism. I’ve got another paper that goes in to some detail of “implicit associations”, but I don’t want to be a space-hog.
IMHO, British nationalism is a harmful social pathology that is hard to avoid on the subconscious level.
link to cambridge.org
#WorldMurdoDay
jfnjw 9.56
“We need to ensure when the next vote happens these people who lied to Scotland about the powers it was going to get are highlighted”.
Unless the SNP and Yes movement get their finger out just how exactly is that going to happen?
I’ve actually got three papers to share now, on fighting prejudice. 😉
#WorldMurdoDay
Second thoughts, I’d better stick them in OT.
#WorldMurdoDay
Given the posts on oil & gas matters appearing today, this comparison by the independent Natural Resource Governance Institute in 2015 of the policy/fiscal approaches taken by the UK and Norway to their offshore assets makes for interesting (but hard to bear!) reading. The figures (reproduced below) from this article are startling. Although this is a topic covered in the past by Business for Scotland, an independent source is likely to bring additional weight.
(Source: link to resourcegovernance.org )
“Whilst the geology and resource base in each country is similar, the two countries have taken very different approaches to governance of the sector. Since 1986 the U.K. government has had effectively no direct equity participation in the North Sea and has had a fully private upstream sector, with taxation as the only channel of government revenues from hydrocarbons.
Norway has taken a different approach, with over 50 percent of production coming through Statoil (of which the state owns a majority) and state ownership of assets via the State Direct Financial Interest (SDFI), held through Petoro (wholly owned by the state). Norway generated more than double the revenue the U.K. did from each barrel it produced.”
The NRGI article goes on to note: “For other countries seeking to extract more from their resources this case study suggests a valuable lesson: given political stability and competent institutions, a state can have both a relatively high tax burden on its industry AND direct ownership of assets, AND deliver more revenue for its citizens AND still attract investment.” (With my emphasis.)
And on the actual tax take: “So how much revenue has each country generated from its oil and gas production over the past 45 years? Analysis of official government statistics show that the U.K. generated $470 billion in revenues whilst Norway has generated $1,197 billion since 1971 in real (2014) terms.” Think of the share of this UK revenue gained by Scotland and what might have been … and weep!
And then there is this conclusion: “The $18.8 per barrel extra government revenue Norway enjoyed equates to $727 billion in money of the day terms. On the face of it, this is a staggering sum, equivalent to 35 percent of the U.K.’s national debt stock in 2014.” – and then recall this scale of UK national debt is one whose costs Scotland has also had to bear.
(As far as I can ascertain from the article, these differential benefits accruing to Norway do NOT even include those also being realised through the investments made by Norway’s ‘Oil Fund’.)
Garry Henderson, you gov as well!, i just did a Panelbase one with similar questions, just like a bus you wait for ages then two come along at the same time 🙂
Breeks says:
23 April, 2019 at 1:00 pm
I have never understood why Westminster has never made a big deal about spending oil revenues on capital projects, infrastructure, schools, housing, hospitals etc.
They make a big deal about tax raised by business, money raised by the Lotto, money raised by individuals or even money raised by the big ticket items such as Red Nose Day etc.
Even more bizarre, nobody seems to ask the question of politicians what is the oil money being spent on. It is like it is some dirty secret that should not be mentioned.
Auld highlander 10.38am A cracking uplifting video by David Hayman who is also a great Scottish export . If videos like this had been unrestrictedly shown in 2014 we would have won.
That , the oil revenues , and the vast natural resources , gas , water , renewable energy , whisky , gin , tourism , is the reason the establishment will hold broadcasting in its death grip , until we have our own properly funded independent broadcaster to tell the REAL TRUTH the Scottish asleep public will continue its zombie walk into oblivion
When all the sniping and fighting is put to one side this site and it’s contributers are a class above when it comes to information and exposure , eyes on the prize INDEPENDENCE AND DISSOLUTION OF THE UNION
You have got to see oil in the context of price and production goung up and down,
so always go with the average over the years,
from wiki,
`Over the last four decades, 39 billion BOE have been extracted on the UK Continental Shelf (UKCS)` = just under 1billion per year
link to tinyurl.com
price has gone from low of $12.80pb to high of $111.63pb
but average over 40 year is just over $50 pb,
link to tinyurl.com
which means $2,000,000,000,000 dollars in someone`s pocket.
f
@galamcennalath
Let we forget one of the things the UK did with our oil:
link to en.wikipedia.org
@Scot Finlayson
Absolutely, in your own posting you made that clear. It’s when figures get requoted it accidentally becomes unclear and bit by bit distorted – and then becomes the “new reality”.
I refuse to allow England to steal any more of our resources, period.
It’s my oil, my water, my energy, my fish, my agriculture, my land.
Now is the Time, now’s the hour.
Who the fuck do Hunt and May think they are?
My colonial masters?
Join me in driving out the invader.
Or are we just to wring our hands anxiously while Mundell and Jackson supervise the loading of plundered Scots booty on to freight trains for shipment South to their Imperial Masters’ coffers?
Our children starve while the rich get ever richer?
It is getting beyond farce, the notion that I need permission from a fat fuck of an Englishman to announce my freedom from tyranny and oppression.
Had enough. Driven beyond reason now.
yesindyref2
And that feeds in to “system justification”.
Norway has Equinor previously known as Statoil, but let us not forget the UK had British National Oil Corporation which Thatcher sold off in 1982. At the time we assumed … ‘fast buck’, to help a near bankrupt economy. However, there was almost also an element of hiding the wealth from the Scots.
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
Jack collatin
….and breath in….and breath out. It’s not the fault of British nationalists that their world view is harmful to the well-being of Scotland. Social identity isn’t a thing that most folk considered. Then you have the BBC in Scotland, framing Scotland and all things Scottish as parochial and shite.
Principles of Social Psychology – 1st International Edition
3. The Self
The Social Self: The Role of the Social Situation
link to opentextbc.ca
The Telegraph tells us (from behind paywall) ….
” Brexit latest news: Theresa May accuses Labour of dragging its feet in compromise talks as Jeremy Corbyn says PM is still refusing to budge “
… or to put it another way, there is no Brexit news.
May gives the distinct impression that her idea of compromise is to get the other side to agree with her position by stating it over and over again.
Corbyn must be listening to the polls. If he I is true to form and puts party before country then he has no incentive to help the Tories out. He wants them to fall and an election to follow.
They have days to make progress or there must be EU elections. Those will not go well for either Lab or Tories.
galamcennalath
Don’t forget English local elections on 3 May.
Perfectly not timed for the Scottish Tory Conference starting the day after.
And which sees the return of Jesus…eh Ruth Davidson
link to archive.is
link to archive.is
Hehe ah just realised what our shared sixth sense is called…
“The Indy Sense!”
That’s an Indy sensation 🙂
Ahm renaming the Pineal gland to the Indy sense:
link to en.wikipedia.org
Ra is shining
@ Douglas Mitchell – what you fail to understand is that our oil is worthless. It costs a fortune to extract and then decommission. It comes from terra incognito and nobody knows where that is.
Westminster pays for all this. So count yourself lucky that you don’t have a huge invoice for the effort they expend on our behalf.
Ungrateful wretch. 🙂
Thank goodness we’re blessed in Scotland with world class broadcasters like Bryan Taylor who despite having zero knowledge of the First Ministers statement tomorrow because it’s a secret, Bryan is able to phsychically tell us every word
Or on STV they had Archie McPherson who was happy to inform the nation that if it hadn’t been for him and his broadcasting Celtic football club would never have had Billy McNeil, he came from the same place as Archie y’know, and Archie gave him a job in broacasting, and taught him how to do it, who was I talking about again, Oh aye Archie McPherson talking about a fella that played for somebody or other, he was British y’know
*Scotoil* wonder why nobody ever thought of that, or did they
Back in the day we had Scottish oils This was the amalgamation of all the small shale oil companies. Eventually taken over by BP.
Dr Jim @ 6.56pm
Lets not miss out the appearance of Michael Kelly, of Glasgows Miles Better fame, but only if its part of the union. I half expected John Reid to pop into view.
Hi starlaw.
Typing about “Scottish oils”. These two snippets are from the following link.
“The company was founded as the Rangoon Oil Company IN GLASGOW (my emboldening) in 1886 by David Sime Cargill to develop oil fields in the Indian subcontinent.
In the late 1890s, it passed into the ownership of Sir Campbell Kirkman Finlay, whose family already possessed vast colonial interests through their trading vehicle James Finlay and Co.
In the first decade of the 20th century, Burmah Oil became an early and major shareholder in Anglo-Persian Oil Company (APOC) – later Anglo-Iranian Oil Company, then British Petroleum and eventually BP. It restricted its downstream interests to the Indian subcontinent, where BP had no business interests.
In 1923, the company gave £5,000 (£236,000 in 2011 money)[2] to future Prime Minister Winston Churchill to lobby the British government to allow them sole control over oil resources in Persia.”
and
“In 2000, Burmah-Castrol was acquired by the then BP Amoco (now renamed BP).”
link to en.wikipedia.org
Dr Jim @ 6.56 pm.
Both STV and BBC Propaganda Wings of the Brit Nats referred to Billy McNeill as ‘British’, not Scottish.
Like conquered slaves of the Roman Empire,who were ‘Roman’ by conquest, Scots are British by dint of conquest by ‘England/Britain’,’
They even denied this truly Great Scotsman his birth right in death.
Fuck you all, ye ‘Britons’.
Brian doonthetoon, Denis Thatcher was a senior executive at Burmah, strange that the only Scottish Oil company went tits up on the eve of the North sea boom
“It’s my oil, my water, my energy, my fish, my agriculture, my land.”, says Jack collatin @ 5.47.
Noo hang on a wee minute there, Jack. You and I know that as Scots, we are expected to ‘pool and share’ all our wealth. Wisnae that what ScotLab told us way back in 2014, and being good little weans, many obeyed, said “Aye”, and voted “Naw”. EngLab on the other hand, in the guise of the great Marxist/Communist/Leftie/Internationalist/Brexiteer/Whatever, Mr Jeremy C, (and his many buddies), believes that pooling and sharing is for everybody else, but not for England.
It is indeed unfortunate for Scottish culture, that Scotland is joined in political union with England, and England is wedded to an historically-bound self-imagination and Anglo-American neo-liberalim.
link to ujpir-journal.com
Jack Collatin
Hi, Jack. Like you I hold no brief for the BBC, but to be fair, it is a fact that Billy McNeill WAS the first British player to lift the European Cup, and I don’t think this was an attempted put down for Scotland as they gave a fair summing up of his career a Celtic and Scotland player.
Nobody could be in any doubt that he was Scottish.
Sky news reported McNeil as British as well
The other day Sky news talked about Englishman Paul Scholes which would be correct
There was also a question on the Chase quiz show about someone’s nationality and the answer was *British* You can say someone comes from Britain you might even suggest incorrectly someone is British, but nobody’s nationality is British, you can’t be born from four countries simultaneously, it’s like refusing to call a Frenchman French and substituting european for nationality
It is also unfortunate for Scottish culture that the human mind is not always a reliable source of reason. Remember, a sense of self-preservation is a foundational component of being a rational individual. Subsequently, I expect the BBC in Scotland will downplay the threat posed to Scotland by the full-English Brexit.
link to journals.sagepub.com
P.S. for those that have the time and are interested, it might be worth while checking out the links that only link to abstracts and not full documents, as you might be interested in the click-through links that you’ll find.
CameronB Brodie. I always liked the term Culture. Is that like the English like sugar in their porridge and we like salt! Are the Carlisle working class different in Culture from the Dumfries working class?
Mad Unionist
My English granny came from near Carlisle, which is reasonably close to Dumfries. I imagine that the culture of that region is a mixed hybrid. Scotland and England do definitely have separate cultures though (see Churches of Scotland and England, for example).
While we don’t particularly like it, news in the UK is London-centric. So, for the death of a Scottish sportsman to get a mention on the London-based news is pretty big.
It still bugs the English rotten that Celtic were the first team from these islands to win the European Cup, so they muscled-in on a Scottish triumph, putting a Union flag on it.
Celtic’s win was a “British” first, so, it had to be recognised. However, in the eyes of the London media, the main events were the year before: 1966, England winning the World Cup, and the year after, 1968 – Manchester United, albeit a team managed by a Scot – Matt Busby, and with a Scot, Pat Crerand, and three Irishmen, George Best, Shay Brennan and Tony Dunne in the team, winning the same European Cup. This could, like 1966, be sold as an “English” triumph.
It’s nothing personal, it’s what they do in their quest to have everyone believe in the greatness of Mother England.
Yeah, Mo Farah, Ooops! Sir Mo Farah who lives in Portland Oregon apparently he’s still *British* and he’s adopted all the *British* ways as well
He’s a tax exile
Mad Unionist at 930
“Are the Carlisle working class different in Culture from the Dumfries working class?”
Are they different from the working class in Dublin or Paris? Should they all be ruled by London as well? We got tired of this infantile argument a long time ago.
O/T
The week before 18th September 2014 the polls showed “Yes” winning.
I don’t agree that the currency issue or any other made that lead disappear.
It was the lies that did it. The Vow, and the Unionists telling old people that their pension would stop the day after a Yes vote.
In my view the approach now should be simple, straightforward, and not hung up on currency or any other detail. I wish and pray that tomorrow’s announcement will state that all countries are equal so Scotland is going to regain its equality. No more trying to bring a hopelessly biased media and political system round to accepting that Scotland’s subservient position is an outrage.
That is my hope.
CameronB Brodie. My granny was from Carlisle and moved to Glasgow to obtain work. Her culture was no different from those others in the tenements and her Anglican religion was not a problem. She did apparently call a roll a muffin and she married a Scotsman. My other Scottish granny married a Belfast man who came to Glasgow looking for work and she was a rabbit, twelve weans. They are all buried in Glasgow East End. I think I am a multicultural British bloke! ?
@Dave McEwan Hill 10:13pm
Have you no sense of history man
Everybody should be ruled by London it’s in their DNA, they’re born to rule they were the master race first and will be again, they just haven’t seemed to get used to the idea that no other countries agree with them
They should have ruled the EU but the Foreign Bastirts wouldn’t let them, see how evil and mean other countries can be when they don’t knuckle under like they’re supposed to
Ungrateful bloody foreigners, they had their chance to be ruled and blew it
Dr Jim..
Good point about nationality
The British passport states your nationality as British it mentions the town you were born in but it doesn’t say if you are Scottish English Irish or welsh but I’m sure the government record shows which it is.
Under nationality on your passport it says British citizen
Imagine that on a french passport it said European citizen under nationality ,the french wouldn’t allow their country to be erased like that.
Of course England don’t mind the passport saying British because England and it’s westminster government and allies such as the newspapers and BBC continuously refer to British or Britain when they mean English or England they are trying their best to erase Scotland wales Ireland and just call everything English or British with English British being one and the same thing.
To mad unionist….
When you say your granny is from Carlisle is she English or Scottish or what ?
Saying someone is from a town doesn’t really cut it when talking about nationality
You can be from Carlisle and have Malaysian nationality or Russian nationality or whatever …
@ british working class 9.30
Sugar or salt in porridge. Dumfries working class or Carlisle working class.
The working class of Baghdad and many more were incinerated and eviscerated by this britnat warmongering union.
Wonder what they took in their porridge.
David McEwan Hill. Of course the Irish and French should be ruled from London. Might stop them moaning like the Jocks and give them a sense of humour.
Terry callachan. It was during the late nineteenth century until the Irish arrived to take our jobs.
I saw the report on the 6 o’clock news about Mr McNeil and noticed the ‘British’ reference when talking about the European Cup but I felt they had to do it that way so that there would not be any doubt that it was a Scottish team, Celtic, that had been the first team in the UK to win the European Cup.
If they had said, ‘the first Scottish player…’ then to anyone who did not know football history it would have suggested that another team from the UK, most likely an English one, had lifted the Cup before Celtic.
Saying first British player left no doubt that Celtic were the first in UK to lift that Cup and the rest of the report covering the Lisbon Lyons left no doubt about that.
@Terry callachan 10:12pm
Because of the EU I’ve travelled backwards and forwards all over the place and never had to show my passport hardly ever
The Brits are now going to experience a whole new level of displaying their passport and having it checked thoroughly everywhere they go much more than ever it used to be before we joined the EU because customs will not be smiling and welcoming like they used to be
Because that Brit country will be out of the club so will be immigrants in the same category the Brits put immigrants in if they come here
I wonder how quickly the flood of returning *expats* (stupid expression) will start because they’re not being treated like the proper Brits they think they deserve to be
To Sarah….
Good point.
I think it would be easy for the SNP to say that they will increase state pensions by 50% overnight once Scotland is independent it wouldn’t be too costly 3 billion or less ,compare it with the hundreds of billions spent on trident.
State pension is only about £150 a week at present which is £7500 a year so increasing it by 50% would mean an increase of about £75 a week max just over £3500 a year.
There are about a million pensioners in Scotland
Not all get state pension for various reasons
Announcing such a state pension increase on independence would change a lot of NO,s to YES overnight
“The first man to lift the European Cup for a British side has a special place in world football.”
From the Hootsman. QED, Fireproofjim @8.39.
It is trailed as a ‘British’ triumph, lumping us in with England/Britain, not a Scottish triumph, whereas Man U was the first English team to win the Cup in ’68.
But you know what I’m getting at.
When Murray first won Wimbledon the Great Unwashed watched from Henman Hill.
Murray was ‘the first British player since..’ rather than the first Scottish Player ever to’.
Scotland’s triumphs are tributes to modern Rome, London, and the English Establishment.
Why was McNeill hailed as the ‘first Scot’ to lift the trophy?
Because Scotland is Shite, and McNeill a colonial serf of Great England?
Dr Jim. I travelled with my ten Bob Post office passport all over Europe before we joined the EEC and never had it checked. It is not the passport but who runs Scotland and the UK. If you want to give up the Scottish Parliament and let the EU run Scotland then propose it.
Just looked it up: Quote: “United’s win meant that they became the first English team to win the European Cup, just a year after Celtic had become the first British team to do so.”
Scotland no more, we’re ‘British’, but Manchester is ‘English’.
Fireproofjim @8.39 pm.
You get my point now?
To Dr Jim.
Very true.
I’m 63 now I can still remember the delays and questions when travelling overseas before we had freedom of movement being an HM Forces family we travelled a lot overseas and it took a long time to get through passport checks.
I was actually overseas when my mother died she was in Dundee Scotland I was in Greece, I had to go to the British embassy in Greece and get a letter from the high commissioner personally signed by him confirming my reason for leaving Greece earlier than I had said I would be leaving when questioned on length of stay on entry.
I then had to take the letter to the Greek police and only after that was I allowed to book a flight out of Greece it took me 36 hours to get back to Dundee.
It’s not just getting into a country that will be more difficult after brexit it will also be more difficult getting home.
Mad Unionist@ 10:12pm
My granny ran away from service at 14 and found work in Dundee’s mills and yes, you appear to have a mixed heritage. You also appear not to grasp the time-line of cultural significance. Scotland was an independent nation for roughly a millennia before union with England.
Three centuries later, England’s larger population, the outdated British constitution and a blind eye to illegal political practice, now threatens to undermine Scotland’s economy and social environment. It also annihilates the principles of the Treaty of Union. Where is the protection of my human rights? Remember, “harm prevention” is the most compeling of moral and legal arguments.
link to researchgate.net
To mad unionist….
I don’t believe you …
Travelling around Europe was not that easy before freedom of movement, I’m 63 my family being HM Forces travelled a lot never in one place or country for more than a year most of the time.I can say with certainty you didn’t sail through passport checks the way you do now especially if travelling anywhere other than France ,photographs were checked rigorously and photos had to be kept up to speed with how you look at time of travelling or you would very likely be held up or even taken aside for further questions.
I remember all this very well, I became a passport officer later in life.
“They should have ruled the EU….”
That was certainly Mosely’s view re. the EEC. 😉
For all you Scottish Irish anti British Catholic bigots. Celtic were the only team ever to win the European Cup with an all Scottish football player team. And not all the team were Catholics. Billy McNeil was a decent charitable man and will be remembered.
Jack collatin
I hear where you’re coming from but have you thought about what Legerwood said at 10:22pm?
….Hear what your saying, see where your coming from. Doh!
Terry callachan. I visited sunny France 1968 and travelled on the British rail boat from Dover to Calais. The French polis customs didnae give a shit. We stayed overnight in a German concrete pill box before moving on. Only two of the five still alive!
Hi, Jack,
Legerwood at 10.22 has perhaps put it better than I did.
If they said McNeill was the first Scottish Captain to raise the European Cup the implication was that an English team had won it earlier. By saying he was British they made it clear that no English team had done it. In this instance they can be forgiven perhaps.
I notice that both my local Tescos have decided to change from the Saltire and Scottish branding on a lot of their meat produce to the Union flag and British branding…
Has anybody else noticed this in their areas?
If it’s got a Jack, put it back!
#Keep Scotland the Brand.
What a spanker on Scotland tonight just now!
Chris Musson, ‘Scottish’ Sun:
“Indy support is 24% now, 11% in next 5 years, and its 10 years before there’s an appetite for it”
Then of course, “I’m John Mackay” pipes up with:
“any referendum would need to be authorised by WM, OF COURSE”!
….
Panic stricken unionists are quite the sight to behold.
STV are every bit as bad as BBC.
dan at 11.11
Head for Aldi instead, plenty of Saltires in there.
Terry Callachan
Hope you are enjoying your conversation with your mad unionist pal.
Now how about answering my question from the previous thread – just when and what did you disagree about a comment of mine that led me to calling you a Britnat. Or did you just make it up?
Scotland tonight interviews a *Scottish Sun* *journalist* who tells us in a serious voice that polling for Independence is at 22% and there’s just no appetite for Independence and John McKay just sits there like a useless waster and doesn’t even question it
So the Sun is telling us that all the people who previously wanted Independence have changed their minds and don’t want it now, that’ll be why Police Scotland issued notice to the YES movement that the expected crowd for the next march would be possibly too big to handle because in excess of 100.000 are expected
Remember 23% of us who voted YES don’t want it anymore
If that were truly the case the SNP would have already made a statement to that effect and ditched a vote, if we are going ahead then the SNP internal polling is high, remember what Nicola Sturgeon said *I don’t want to just hold a referendum I want to win it because like everybody else on that day in 2014 I don’t want to feel like that again*
So this psychic *journalist* was able to predict what the FM and all the other parties would say tomorrow, I would suggest it’s very easy to predict the Unionist patter because that never changes but the SNP have kept their lips zipped on this and the Yoon press don’t like it
Oh and John McKay what are you, what is your function, because if it’s only to read words from an idiot board autocue and nothing else they can train monkeys to do that,
are you unable to think up a question when a guest makes a statement they say is fact, see that’s kinda the job you’re supposed to be doing otherwise bring on the monkeys
Ach Scottish British English Nationalists they make me sick with their religion and their Queen and their sashes playing at wee loyal forelock tugging soldiers
More than 22% have marched in the last 6 months and the next march will be a Tsunami of people
Geeo@11.11pm
I’ve also heard Rhona say on a few episodes of Scotland Tonight that permission must be granted by Westminster or it would be illegal or it would be a Catalan style referendum. I think they are being coached to say this.
I agree with your comment that STV is as bad as the BBC. All the foreign controlled media operating in Scotland are run by lying deceitful Britnats.
Take the Union flag branded produce to the checkout then look surprised and tell them you made a ghastly mistake and leave it there
Indy live dot Radio…
We’re the only place to go
Back in 5
Hey jj, ah missed tonight’s quiz
See ye over on webcomradio
Ahm requestin’ ROCK!
I love lorne sausage with fried Union und tomaten ketchup. Good Scottish German EU food.
Cubby
Britain’s industrial society was structured through the political economy of colonialism, which has left us with many social problems today. The BBC and STV journalism is biased in its’ focus and presentation, but I don’t know if we can conclude that the presenters are necessarily lyres. They have nice hair and can read auto-ques, they don’t necessarily understand the complexities of political economy or moral philosophy and stuff. They have a ‘safe’ One Nation perception of the world and a comfortable life. Why would they question their own beliefs, as they appear to work (from their perspective anyway).
link to dhss.delaware.gov
@Dan at 11.11: we were talking about this a few weeks back. I emailed Tesco customer complaints about it and they replied saying they had recently changed packaging and were not planning another change [whatever people like me were saying about not buying anything with a UJ on – my words, not theirs!].
Lads, there was no need to lump Celtic in with the progress of other ‘British’ teams, was there?
To state that they were the first Scottish Team to win was enough, since the 4 ‘home’ nations had distinct football associations.
The British allusion is to ‘pool and hsare’ the Scottish triumph, but not apparently Man U’s a year later.
Mo Farah and Lewis Hamilton draping themselves in the Butcher’s Apron celebrating a ‘British’ win, when they live elsewhere for tax benefits says it all.
When a Scot wins the golf, he is not tagged as ‘British’ is he?
Rory Gallagher is Norn Irish isn’t he?
I’m done with this.
Tonight, McNeill was a British hero, according to the BBC and STV Brit Nat Propagandists.
Nothing will sway me from my belief that our broadcasters and Dead Tree Scrolls are not united in doing down Scotland and anything remotely successful Up Here.
John McKay allowing a Sun hack to lie about the % Yes vote says it all.
He is paid to look the other way when these hacks lie to the public.
Those who get paid to defend the status quo will always look the other way.
McNeill was a Great Scot, not a Great Brit.
There was no innocent unintended slight today.
It was, and always is, deliberate.
P.S. I’m not try to excuse the acceptance of obvious mince. That simply smacks of bias and collusion.
@Cubby and Dr Jim.
Actually, something the wee Sun churno said, stuck out.
He mentioned about how the legal route has “never been tested” (to rule if Holyrood can hold an indyref minus a S.30)
Any yes, i know we know this is unionist spin and bollocks, but it got me thinking, does someone on here not promote that notion ?
Is it Coco maybe, or another british nationalist ?
Jack collatin
How many English teams have won the European cup and how many Scottish teams?
Where’s the DJ?
Trains, trains, trains
Choo, choo, choo
Toot toot toot
Jack collatin
Sorry I should have finished that off. Man U were the first English team to win the cup, so it is not unreasonable to describe them as “the first English team to win the cup”.
4.8K people liked this Brexit (past tense)
link to howmanydaystill.com
Here’s the next:
link to howmanydaystill.com
Ah can’t wait, not like
Cheers jj
The Camouflage is on
“Things are never quite the way they seem, Stan”
Just like the Tories smoke n mirrors
CameronB Brodie@11.58pm
Thanks for your comments. If you read my comment I presume you were referring to @11.32pm I never said the presenters were liars. I said ” run by lying deceitful Britnats.” I was talking about the owners and managers behind the scenes. The ones who control the show and the approach taken.
For those that missed it NOW and previous…
link to youtube.com
Cheers jj
Cubby
Sorry, I must not have been paying enough attention. That’s not a comment on your contribution, but an acknowledgement of my error. 😉
Cameron, Celtic were the first Scottish team to win the cup.
That statement stands alone; to say ‘British team’ is take ‘Scotland’ out of the equation.
Alan Wells was ‘british’ when he was winning medals, but ‘the Scot’ when he started losing.
SO check out the news, the excellent Greta from Sweden has been characterised by the MSM already, the MSM and radio have been derogatory about her already, ahhh that’s the UK way, eh?
They are forming opinions and making assumptions, can you tell?
Mon the Climate!
CameronB Brodie. George Best did his best for Man U. Dennis Law was injured and missed the game.
For and to Swedish Greta:
link to youtube.com
Get on yer own highway girl, don’t let them get to you
Keep it real
Jack collatin
As I said, I hear where you are coming from and I’m not saying you are wrong. All I’m saying is that from the perspective of linguistic logic, it is absolutely appropriate to describe Man U as the “first English team…”.
If ah was standing next to Ed Milliband, ah would feel the same 2 Greta
He’s one creepy fucker
Hey sweary time 😉
@ Sarah at 11:59 pm
If that’s the case then I guess I’ll have to boycott their stores.
I’m out in the sticks and only in town to shop about once a week anyway as I’m getting more self sufficient.
With spring arriving I’ve been developing the veg garden.
I reckon 45 tattie plants should keep me going for a while! Especially if I get a bumper crop from the seaweed boosted ones.
Geeo@12.07pm
You better watch out you’ll have British Nationalists on complaining about the use of the term British Nationalist. Always a good sign that someone is a Britnat when they complain about the use of the term Britnat.
Britnats hate being called Britnats.
or ‘the second British team’, Cameron.
That would never do, would it?
Enough already. Great to blether. ‘night.
….Hear what your saying, see where your coming from. I’ve done a fair bit of research today and I’m not particularly bright and bushy. The BBC and STV have been rumbled, what are they going to do about it?
CameronB Brodie @12.30am
No problem.
Jack collatin
That’s me myself, night night.
“Who’s in the house, hit house…”
link to youtube.com
When naebuddy gave ah shit about HOW they danced like hehe
@geeo
To refuse a co-operative section 30 order if requested by the constituted government is a rejection of democracy
The United Kingdom is a Union to which neither country may be held within against its democratic will
If a section 30 order is refused the Westminster parliament has reverted to an English parliament against the constituted agreement of a voluntary Union opening them up to legal challenge in whichever courts the Scottish government might choose
If England decided it wanted to remove itself from the Union they would not require an agreement from Scotland to do so making this not a Union of equals but ownership and dictatorship by England
The FMs preferred option is agreement on section 30 and an agreed referendum, but that’s not the position of many in the party if Westminster does not agree
You can’t just keep asking and being refused because if that’s the plan conference will not go well and the FM will suffer for it, so I kinda don’t think it is the plan, like everybody else we’ll just have to wait one more day to find out then we can moan or cheer depending on your point of view
Ain’t it fresh and ain’t it fun to be able to listen to THISmusic?!
Hey restricted Scotland (as an ‘equal part’ of the ukUnion)
Wur ready tae be aye
THIS is NOW
Indy will come quickly
Ah’ll be feelin’ the hair of the dog ra morra, Norrie Hunter ~
link to youtube.com
When we on at?
Scotland Tonight
What a liefest.
The guy from the Sun ( not a paper known for its past adherence to the truth ) quotes figures from polls but provides no details of the polls he quotes. Did he just make up his only 24% want indyref2.
Of course the friendly McKay never questions him on anything. It was like reading a Sun column.
McKay says Westminster needs to authorise any referendum but they then both subsequently contradict themselves by the Sun guy saying it has not actually been settled whether or not Holyrood could have a legal footing to have a referendum without a sect 30 order. Not very good at the lying these two. What of course they never say is what law is being broken in holding a referendum without a sect 30. They never say because there is no law being broken. The Britnats just wish there was one so they just lie instead.
Britnats are in panic mode.
Scotland Tonight
I meant to include the the fact that the guy from the Sun repeated the lie that Sturgeon said she would not proceed with indyref2 without a sect 30. What she actually said was she would PREFER a sect 30.
Britnats lie and they lie all the time about nearly everything.
Just in case you didn’t get this one next on your AutoPLAY:
link to youtube.com
“Fox on the run”
Tis a Belter
Scream!
Ye should listen back to that song several times endorphins
Wow, excellent soundy sounds hehe
Harmonious Yes!
Let’s get back to talkin’ about n sortin’ out about independence
Looking forward to yours laters today, Nicola
How ye haudin’ up, y’all Scotland
Ye rarin’ tae go like
Somebuddy won 38 million UK dollars today on the lottery
link to youtube.com
Was it YOU?!
Sing it in 14th upper octave in the key of C, girly
link to youtube.com
“In the cool cool cool…”
Nae Fear
Vroom
Ah’ve been downtown, NOW we going Motown baby
link to youtube.com
Use it as necessary
THIS was PLAYing on the radios earliers peoples
link to youtube.com
Sleepy time xx
Sometimes ah big cake is the answer tae…
Nae questions asked
Eat and sleep
Tune in later today for LIVE coverage of Nicola’s statement
link to scottishparliament.tv
UK
Brexit vs indyref2Won’tMight not be long now …Terrorism. The Middle East bombed to bits, P/P checks queues all over the place.
May cut the border staff. Hours of p/p queues. Absolute airport chaos. They had to let travellers in unchecked. She blamed the guy she had appointed. He resigned and called her out. Imbeciles. There are more airport queues because US/UK (France) illegally bombed the Middle East to bits. Retaliation. (Apartheid Israel, Palestine etc). Illegal Balfour Agreement and Partition of Ireland. Illegal under International Law. The Westminster unioniists criminals have made the world an unsafe place. Many of them should be in jail. Countries that do not engage in illegal wars are much safer.
Iraq War, Dunblane, Lockerbie kept secret under the Official Secrets Act for 100 years.
Going through Middle Eastern airports there are hardly any checks, as it once was here. No one is going to bomb their flights. UK airport security over checking. Especially considering low level of threat. A form of State control. Railways do not have the intensive checks. Impossible to do? Same level of threat? Terrorist threat level still quite small by comparison of national disaster. Quoted out of all proportion for political reasons. To cause more trouble between nations. The lying Gov/MSM.
In the US 16,000 are killed by gun crime. 26,000 people killing each other. (More than any terrorist threat). More than any illegal wars (pro rata) The availability of guns/ammunition. People are more likely to be killed crossing the road/accidents) than any terrorist. People are more likely to be killed by a wardrobe falling on top of them than any terrorist. Still quite shocking.
There is hardly any crimes in Middle Eastern countries by comparison. They do not drink/drug. Higher crime levels linked to drink/drugs male gender. Less crime in Japan etc. Society culture. Murders pro rata. Mexico etc. Drug addiction and consumption UK, US, Iraq etc highest in the world, Ruins communities and nations. Avoidable deaths and anxiety. The ailment of developed nations. Consumer availability.
The Police trying to criminalise the population. Making false ‘arrest’ on innocent people. Knowingly On ‘charges’ that cannot come to Court. Building a criminal empire. A total waste of public money and a national scandal. Wasting £Millions. Swept under the carpet, They should be carpeted. A waste of time money and energy. Trivial malicious complain. Putting up the crime rates. Intentionally?
There should be proper ‘one chance’ total abstinence rehab counselling. Not prison. The unionist collusion. Thatcher ‘care in the community’. Prison. It is the unionist way. There are far too many people on the autistic spectrum in prison. They should have been getting proper support in the community. Not prison. Not enough diversity in society. Total ignorance in public service.
The unionist way still continues in local communities. Total ignorant arrogance, The unionist collusion not providing proper services. Building grotesque monstrosities of no value instead. No one wants. People want pedestrianisation and open green spaces, Not a concrete jungle. Sheer ignorant, arrogance indulgence, wasting £Billions of public monies which could be better spent. The unionist pre occupation of self indulgence. Selfishness, ignorance and damaging. E.g. Brexit. A complete disasterous shambles. Lying bastards of monumental proportion. Especially for Scotland.
McKay/Sun liars. Newnight or whatever – is nonsense. . A S30 can be easily obtained through the Courts. When the time is right. Demographics. Why bother with it. No viewers, A total waste of time and money. A piece of total self indulgence of ignorance. Kept going by Coronation Street. More trivia. Entertainment? Consumerism.
Murdoch one of the biggest criminal liars on the Planet. Responible for millions of deaths. Away with £30Billion for fraud, criminal activity and getting away with murder. He should be in the dock/prison. Illegal hacking, surveillance and bribing public officials. A master criminal.
The unionists are going down big time in Scotland. Labour going down into oblivion. Troughers out. The Tories Party members average male over seventy. Into oblivion. LibDems liars who colluded in Brexit. Habitual liars. D’Hond’t, STV the surge of Democracy in Scotland. Imposed by useless unionists, without a mandate. The third rare loser wins.
Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Vote for a better world.
Will Nicola’s speech be shown live on Tv in Scotland?. The TV 24 hour news channels would do so if it was Westminster Premier making such an important speech. Surely the new hardly watched Scotland channel should carry the speech and subsequent debate on such an important topic as he future of our nation.
An excellent article by Iain MacWhirter in Herald this morning on currency and why it is not as important as getting independence in the first instance.
Unionists will slag off whatever the SNP or Yes come up with and recent Progress Opinion Survey of 2000 Scots put currency as the 11th most important reason for voting in 2014 referendum.
I have just found the Heralds circulation figures for 2019 also the P&J , Evening express and the Scotsman – good news all round!
link to holdthefrontpage.co.uk
It seems that the Irish have better more appreciated reporters – which we all knew thank to Nana’s links.
Nicola Sturgeon set to reveal ‘detailed’ indyref2 update today
link to archive.is
Ireland takes steps towards cementing Wales and Scotland as allies
link to archive.is
Brexit lights touchpaper for next political firestorm – Irish unity
link to archive.is
Currency is just a name. Totally irrelevant. The way a countries economic, foreign, social policies are managed is what is important. The UK totally in £Trns of debt because if Westmibster unionist mismanagement. £Billions being lost e.g Hinkley Point, Trident, HS2. The list (historically) is endless. Illegal wars, tax evasion, frinancial fraud on an industrial scale. An international disgrace. Brexit an absolute shambles of monumental proportion. A total waste of time,monies and evergy, Farague an international crook should have been put in jail years ago for fraud, embezzlement and cirruption. Instead of protected by Tories psychopaths. Farague is a psychopathic liar. An alcoholic. Alcoholics make poor decisions without rehab counselling.
The total mismanagement by Westmibster unionists flaunting every Law. An international disgrace and a laughing stock.
Scotland is an extremely wealthy country. The wealth has been plundered by Westminster unionists on their malicious campaigns fur years. For centuries. Scotland over taxed to pay for their malicious, illegal wars. Lying sychophants. Democracy denied in Scotland by lying unionist parasites in Westminster. Every word they utter is a lie.
Irish Republic shadowed the £pound for years with fantastic growth. The best in the world? Joined the Euro in 1997.
Currency argument is a load of nonsense. Scotland wealth and resources taken illegally and secretly to fund London S/E. The North/south divide. Scotland depopulated by Westminster unionists centrist total mismanagement. The Westminster unionist total mismanagement of Oil & Gas sector, fishing and farming etc in Scotland. Absolutely appalling. Losing Scotland £Billions.
Green MSP fails his psephology test.
… under this voting system it’s almost impossible to know which way to vote if you want to cast a tactical, negative vote against a particular party. The only way in which it might be possible would be if you knew in advance, and in precise detail, how everyone else is going to vote – and you can’t know that, because opinion polls simply don’t offer that extreme level of accuracy
link to archive.is
I wish it was as easy to find viewing figures for BBBC , STV ‘political and news’ output.
Will Trump be permitted to make a speech to Parliament? The Establishment pulling together to sook up Trump’s backside? Desperate to make trade deals with the US? Let’s hope that the sight of this State fiasco further scunners the Scots.
link to independent.co.uk
Thanks Rev Stu for the Dugdale action/verdict. It will make the unless liars think twice before they tell their lies in the future, The liars making other people!’s lives a misery. They can’t count, read a balance sheet. Or even care a jot about others. The stinking unionist political bastards. The absolute havoc that they cause. Along with their MSM colluders. Lie, after lie, after lie. Brexit an absolute nightmare harming people. Austerity totally unnecessary harming millions of people.
At least Trump has not started WW111 yet. Like the other bastards.
Goodness sake. Stop someone winning. Just do not vote for them. Obvious,
BBC Scotland former health corespondent Penny Taylor on GMS this morning falsely claiming that Gordon Brown was last person to reduce the gap between rich and poor.
Under 13 years of Labour Government the gap between the richest and poorest widened thank’s to Gordon Brown’s policies.
Along with Alistair Darling, Gordon Brown bankrolled the Iraq War and Trident nuclear weapons of mass destruction; doubled the 10p Tax band for the poorest while wealthy Non-Doms get off with limited tax bills and praised the City of London bankers just months before the financial crash.
@ Dorothy Devine – your link leads to a page not found. I’ve hunted around but can’t find the figures. I did find the weekly figures though. Good news is that the Sunday Herald has had a fall of 26% over the year and the Scotland on Sunday a fall of 33%!
The Sunday National circulation is on a par with the Sunday Herald at 12,844 but no previous year figure to compare it with.
link to holdthefrontpage.co.uk
OK Dorothy – just found it!
link to holdthefrontpage.co.uk
So, Widders is going to stand as candidate for the latest Farage ego-trip Party in the forthcoming Euro elections … but still vote Tory at the forthcoming council elections.
No fag paper between the Brexit Party and the swivel-eyed loons/yoons in the Conservatives then …
A quotation from the Irish Times today.
“Members of the National Union of Journalists, of which Ms McKee was a member, will form a guard of honour at the funeral.”
link
link to irishtimes.com
In the year of Grace 1558 in another church Mary Stuart was married
link
link to historytoday.com.
Give some thought to these events and what might have been.
Lets build a better Scotland and a better world.
oh Capella , I usually make a mess of such things! Glad you found it and sorted it for others.
Makes lovely reading don’t you think!
@ Dorothy Devine – no problem. you just somehow lost the bit at the end of the URL.
It’s an interesting site. I noticed an article by that illustrious journalist Kezia Dugdale MSP. She is appealing to JPIMedia not to ax 70 jobs because we need to have a “healthy” press.
That word “healthy” gets into most of her pronouncements on the media these days. I wonder if she, or more likely her spin doctor, is trying to create a distinction between “healthy” print journalism and “unhealthy” online journalism. Seems to be a bit of a theme lately.
Another Big T botch-up.
link to independent.co.uk
Capella 9.21
Judging by the numbers for the Scottish papers in that circulation article
Dugdale should avoid using the word ‘healthy’
And start looking for a press hospice.
In 2014 I thought using the pound was the most sensible as it involved the least disruption to peoples use of money. Now I’m not quite as convinced, Westminster has proved to be mendacious in it’s dealings with Scotland. I’m now convinced they would use financial policy to undermine an independent Scotland to try and have the decision reversed. And as we have seen there are plenty of politicians in Scotland that will sell their soul for a few baubles like a lordship.
Also England looks to be too unstable to want to have a financial partnership with, they have a proven disregard for Scotland. The EU and the Euro would look a more attractive long term option if a currency union was needed.
@Welsh Sion
Widders is and always has been a nasty piece of work, no matter how much the BBC has spent trying to beautify her.
Very amusing seeing Chukka Umunna on Newsnight saying he won’t deal with SNP/Plaid because they are nationalist and he is a unionist. Just to prove that British Nationalists don’t see themselves as nationalist or perhaps they consider it a purer version.
Cactus@3.24am
Cactus has very kindly provided a link to the Scottish parliament for live coverage of Sturgeons speech today giving an update on Scottish independence.
Anyone know when it is scheduled to start.
AUOB independence march in Glasgow on Sat 3rd May. Anyone know if it is the same route as last year and what the start time is?
Cubby @ 10.24am
According to the National, Nicola is due to speak at 1.30pm.
I can watch on Scottish Parliament TV, but, I wonder if BBc Shortbread might cover it on their new Scottish Channel.
Probably not, they would not want to give the pro-Independence movement, or the SNP, the oxygen of publicity.
Welsh Sion Give the flair ah liberal dusting of Slippereen Ann W is back again sliding oan her arse lol.
Ann Widdcome can join whatever party she likes, she will still be a backward thinking, nasty wee, homophobic bigot.
Hi peeps.
BBC Scotland is rebroadcasting BBC2 at that time.
11.15 – 1pm Politics Live
1.00 – 1.10 Charity appeal
1.10 onwards Snooker
link to freeview.co.uk
Socrates MacSporran @10.27am
Many thanks for the quick reply. Logically you would think a new Scotland channel would broadcast the speech but there is no sign of it on their tv schedule. They will of course give their version via toodle ooh the noo later on no doubt.
The new BBC Scotland channel is in my opinion doomed to fail. Reasons:
1. Tiny budget.
2. Britnats see it as Scottish therefore it is rubbish.
3. Independence supporters see it as just another BBC propaganda channel.
Re Nicola’s speech – we will just have to rely on the “fake news” of the online webcast and leave the “healthy” MSM to broadcast snooker.
Petra says:
24 April, 2019 at 8:16 am
Will Trump be permitted to make a speech to Parliament? The Establishment pulling together to sook up Trump’s backside? Desperate to make trade deals with the US? Let’s hope that the sight of this State fiasco further scunners the Scots…
Nancy Pelosi has said there will be no chance of a US trade deal with the UK if the Good Friday Agreement is undermined by Brexit.
Richard Neal, chairman of the House of Representatives Ways and Means Committee, was speaking after meeting Irish Foreign Minister Simon Coveney, who was in Washington to ask members of Capitol Hill’s Irish-American caucus to use their influence to ensure nothing is done to undermine peace in Northern Ireland.
I’m not sure, lost the link, it might have been Richard Neal, but I saw another US Trade representative said something along the lines of “a trade deal, and trust me I’ve negotiated them for 20 years, will be impossible if the Good Friday Agreement is undermined.
Theresa May will find all roads lead to the Irish Backstop. The Brexit BritNat media will also blame Europe for its intransigence over the Backstop, but ignore the simple truth the EU cannot renegotiate the Good Friday Agreement, and is simply respecting what it says.
They can suck up to Trump all they want. He can’t renegotiate the Good Friday Agreement either.
The healthy MSM says that Scottish independence is a trivial issue and Westminster has far more important matters to think about.
link to twitter.com
cubby,
The new channel will fail because it is from the government’s paid liars at the state funded propagandist BBC.
Nobody in their right mind believes a word the BBC says about Scotland. Come the next indyref (if their ever is one), the BBC will lie again. It’s what they do.
It has to be said though, I fully expect indyref will NOT be called today. Not even close.
Breeks @ 10.54 am
“”They can suck up to Trump all they want. He can’t renegotiate the Good Friday Agreement either.””
……….
But he could tear it up and say, as he has done with other treaty/agreements, this is a bad deal for the US and withdraw from the treaty. Think Paris Climate Agreement and Iran deal.
If Trump thinks the good Friday Agreement stands in the way of the US profiting from the UK’s exit from the EU he will ignore the Good Friday Agreement and withdraw the US from it.
@jfngw says: 24 April, 2019 at 10:14 am:
” … In 2014 I thought using the pound was the most sensible as it involved the least disruption to peoples use of money. Now I’m not quite as convinced”
Sorry to be commenting after saying I would only comment occasionally but this one is important.
You are getting things wrong, jfngw.
Keeping our own Pound Scottish is not a problem. The Problem, if any, is whether we tie the Scottish pound to the Pound English. First of all England doesn’t own the pound and neither does Scotland. The current situation is that the Pound Sterling is an international trading currency and is thus a commodity bought and sold on the international trading currency open market.
This is where you see the financial news where they publish the values of the trading currencies against each other so readers can buy low and sell high for profit.
So Scotland can just continue to use her own Pound Sterling that we have used just as long as has England but we have the choice of whether to tie the Pound Scottish to the Pound English or let it freely float or we can withdraw it as an International Trading Currency. That’s the choice of an independent state.
If we did tie it to the Pound English what would happen is exactly what spooked Westminster when they read the McCrone Report. McCrone warned them that a Scottish Pound would force the English pound to drop like a stone so Westminster locked the McCrone Report away marked Top Secret.
Now I’ll quote you a case of two big countries that share a border and use the Dollar as their currency but do not tie them together and neither country has any problem with that.
The USA uses the USA Dollar and Canada uses the Canadian Dollar, (they call the Canadian Dollars, “Loonies”, because their notes feature a picture of the animal called a Loon). Their Dollars are not tied to each other with no problems.
So the pound belongs equally to both kingdoms of the United Kingdom so why give Scots the bother of changing their own currency – just decide if we want to tie the two together or not?
Now to the other great misconception – The Bank of England. The Bank of England has never in its entire history ever belonged to the Kingdom of England. It began as a private company, (its real title is, “The Governor and Company of the Bank of England”. In fact it is still operated as a separate company by Westminster but was nationalised by The United Kingdom Government in 1946.
It thus belongs to both Kingdoms in the United Kingdom and an independent Scotland could either demand seats on the board , (and thus influence), or demand that the Kingdom of England either bought out the (negotiable), Scottish Kingdom’s share in the B of E or if they don’t then change its name to reflect the Scottish share in that company.
The idea that the B of E belongs exclusively to England is a myth. So bang goes the idea that a Kingdom of England Parliament would be in charge is mince. In the first place because there has been no legally elected Parliament of England since 30 April 1707. Westminster is the United Kingdom Parliament and it legally ends the instant that Scotland disunites the United Kingdom and thus leaves The Kingdom of England without a legal parliament to negotiate with.
So where is there a problem of Scotland keeping her own currency – The Pound Sterling? The choice is ours whether we tie it to the pound English and thus destroy the Pound English, or let it float against all other currencies on the open currency market and, being an oil & gas backed currency, rise while the English pound sinks.
Adaam Boulton Sky news says the polls show no support for Independence, Stephen Gethins says 59%
The English government and the news media seem to think that the Scottish government should not be in charge of Scotland and polling companies should decide constitutional affairs
Seems we don’t need a government at all in Scotland, we can just do a newspaper poll and that settles any issue
The polls consistantly show that Theresa May is rubbish, she’s still there
So government by newspaper poll in Scotland and government by divine right in England
What’s that word again Hmm, er, oh, eh, Oh yes………
*Dictatorship*
Any bets on May deviating from her mantra of ‘suck it up losers you lost in 2014’ in response to Ian Blackford today?
He won’t want to steal the FM’s thunder so will he avoid the topic altogether or suggest just enough to trigger a deranged robotic reply.The Scottish Tories will also have been working on their scripts for today.
PMQ bingo suggestions?
‘There is no appetite…’
The state of education, NHS, potholes blah blah, the FM should be getting on with the day job…’
‘The precious union…’
‘Better Together…’
So what have the EU and Scottish Parliaments done for us besides the foodbanks, bread ques and dosers all over the streets drugged out of their minds.
Cubby
KELVINGROVE-GLASGOW GREEN
LEAVE 1.30PM SHARP
Kelvingrove, Kelvinway, Gibson St, Woodlands Rd, Sauchiehall St, Pitt St, West George St, Blythswood Sq, West George St, Nelson Mandela Pl, West George St, George St, High St, Saltmarket, Glasgow Green
BBC Scotland feels no need to transmit the FM live when they have Brian Taylor available to ‘interpret’ the speech for the masses. After all he has already pronounced what is about to be said.
DrJim@1.06am
Totally agree.
The SNP/Scotsgov, have been busy over the last couple of years, ensuring that whatever WM do, we are in a prime position to strike down the Treaty of Union, and certainly to be in a position to present such a scenario to an obstinate WM PM/Gov.
Unless of course they comply.
Said it for long enough now, WM has ONE viable option for saving their union.
A Section 30 referendum, and even to get that, it MUST be on Scotland’s terms.
Only a S30 ref gives WM a voice, an opportunity to lie, cheat and bully Scots into voting No.
Every other route that WM takes, ends in the Threat of dissolution of the Treaty of Union, the ACTUAL dissolution of the Treaty of Union and/or, a trip to the international courts to affirm what we on the Yes side already know.
The Treaty of Union is of just 2 LEGALLY EQUAL partner Kingdoms.
A treaty can simply be ended by one party if the other has breached its express terms.
Scots people are sovereign.
The Treaty of Union is built on protecting Scots sovereignty forever.
The Treaty of Union is built on protecting Scots Law forever.
The Treaty of Union, is DEPENDENT on those protections being maintained forever, so ANY breach/subjugation/ATTEMPTED Subjugation even, of just those 2 items of Treaty, dissolves the Treaty without question or legal doubt.
The only obstacle is, ironically, Scots People’s Sovereignty itself.
However, in my opinion, that can be circumvented by holding a politically protective dissolution, caveated by a promise to hold a plebiscite to either affirm dissolution or instruct Scotsgov to enter into negotiations to engage in a NEW Treaty of Union, which better suits Scottish needs, and with terms appropriate to said needs.
Of course, WM could never be seen to concede what Scotsgov would want, so in reality, talks would fail, and Scotland would “regretfully announce that a new Treaty could not be agreed due to WM intransigence” and independence remains our default position as per the protective political dissolution.
The fact WM are seen to not have negotiated a new Treaty in good faith, and subsequent failure of talks, is evidence that the protective political dissolution of the Treaty of Union was fully justified.
I do not present that as THE plan which must be followed, it is of course, just my thoughts on a possible plan.
I am more convinced than ever that we may not see an initial indyref as our vehicle of choice and WM refusal of an OFFICIAL/FORMAL Section 30 request would make that a requirement rather than a notion.
I reckon Nicola has to request a S.30, it is the final box ticking exercise.
I remain unconvinced that she cares if she gets one or not, as we can progress our case with or without it.
Perhaps easier without a S.30, hence the last couple of years work closing off the WM escape routes, in preparation.
Remember the jibe in 2014, “Whats your Plan B” ?
WM are potentially about to be asked what THEIR Plan B is, if they refuse to agree to a S.30.
Scotsgov/SNP clearly have a Plan B, possibly a Plan C as well.
I remain super confident in our top team to deliver on our mandate.
I see no reason not to be.
Legerwood says:
24 April, 2019 at 11:08 am
Breeks @ 10.54 am
“”They can suck up to Trump all they want. He can’t renegotiate the Good Friday Agreement either.””
Trump or USA for that matter cannot touch the GFA .
What gives you that idea Ledgerwood?
GFA is a treaty between UK and Ireland- no other country is involved!
Countries own printable trademarks of currencies they don’t own currencies in the same sense as a building or the rest of the world wouldn’t be allowed to buy and sell them and you wouldn’t be allowed to walk into a bank and just buy any currency that took your fancy
It’s the same as trading a banana for an apple, the world trades money of any description and spends it perfectly legally
The only thing affected is the value of the trademark and that’s mostly decided by other countries attitudes to behavioural trends
Anything could be used as currency if the world agrees it has a value, peanuts, oranges, shiny buttons, it’s all just whatever’s considered a tradeable commodity
@Robert Peffers
My point was not about who owns the currency, but a currency union. If we have a Scottish pound then it is a separate currency, even if we initially tie it to the pound. In 2014 the proposal was to use the same pound and have it controlled by the BoE.
We can say for as long as we want that the pound is as much ours as theirs but if control of it lies with them then it is purely a symbolic claim. The same as sovereignty will be if we are removed from the EU.
robbo says:
24 April, 2019 at 11:31 am
Legerwood says:
24 April, 2019 at 11:08 am
Breeks @ 10.54 am
“”They can suck up to Trump all they want. He can’t renegotiate the Good Friday Agreement either.””
……
That is a quote from Breeks @ 10.54 am
Canada has a very similar relationship with America that Scotland has with England
America derides everything about Canada, rubbishing their money, their lifestyle, their policies even their TV and film and keep as much of it as they can from American TV
But Canada has grown and grown and the rest of the world think it’s a fantastic place but you never hear America say so
O/T
A Tory MP admits to invoice fiddle forged claims for £700 and gets community service,now if someone was to fiddle £700 from DWP I just wonder what they would get,Tories would be up in arms calling them scroungers and they should be jailed for fraud.
What do you all think.
Oops! Sorry but couldn’t let this one go without comment:-I just did a Google about the Nicola Sturgeon statement to be made today.
If anyone doubts the collusion by the State Propaganda Machine a got 27 identical hits. All with the exact same photo and wording in 27 different dead tree press publications. What’s the chances of that? Most even had their comments sections filled by the usual suspects, Headed by Prof Tompkins and featuring History Woman.
You couldn’t make this stuff up.
It bothers me that STV , Sky news and other sources tell us that there is no appetite for independence and that Police Scotland are saying the march is too big.
Part of me is so disgusted and wary of the media and it makes me think they are all cooking up ‘smaller march ‘ so that they can say ‘look no appetite , only 10,000 on the march not 100,000 plus’
There again , it doesn’t really matter how many of us take part both BBBC and STV will report some cat up a tree story so that they can avoid giving it publicity.
Oh what a tangled web we weave , when first we practice to deceive.
@Dr Jim 11.38am
To highlight your currency comments, we already know what happens if currency is not tradeable, by looking at countries who have a ‘closed’ currency, like the Tunisian Dinar.
You cannot, as you say, walk into a bank and change your uk pounds/Dollars/Euro’s into Tunisian Dinars.
You have to take it with you, and change it in Tunisia.
If you are caught taking Dinars OUT the country, like say, the Dinars you didnt spend, it is taken very seriously and infact travel reps will tell you to ensure you do not do it.
Even if you did get it out, it is worthless to you anyway.
Imagine if the whole world operated currency like that ??
Legerwood says:
24 April, 2019 at 11:41 am
robbo says:
24 April, 2019 at 11:31 am
Legerwood says:
24 April, 2019 at 11:08 am
Breeks @ 10.54 am
“”They can suck up to Trump all they want. He can’t renegotiate the Good Friday Agreement either.””
……
That is a quote from Breeks @ 10.54 am
Legerwood says:
24 April, 2019 at 11:08 am
Breeks @ 10.54 am
“”They can suck up to Trump all they want. He can’t renegotiate the Good Friday Agreement either.””
……….
But he could tear it up and say, as he has done with other treaty/agreements, this is a bad deal for the US and withdraw from the treaty. Think Paris Climate Agreement and Iran deal.
If Trump thinks the good Friday Agreement stands in the way of the US profiting from the UK’s exit from the EU he will ignore the Good Friday Agreement and withdraw the US from it.
AYE it is, just forgot to quote whole thing.
USA has nowt to do with GFA. Only UK and Ireland are the two countries involved. It has nowt to do with Trump or any other Chump.
Trump cannot rip up anything to do with GFA.
Petra says:
24 April, 2019 at 10:07 am
Another Big T botch-up.””
……
Huawei is just the latest in a long line of Chinese involvement in sensitive areas in the UK such as oil, gas, nuclear and now telecoms.
The Chinese State Oil Company owns around 10% or more of North Sea Oil production and one of the largest finds in that sector in recent years was found in fields owned by the Chinese.
The Chinese Investment Company was part of a consortium that bought a 61% stake in the National Grid’s Gas Division. The Chinese have the biggest stake, 10.5%, within the consortium.
The Chinese, in partnership with EDF, are building Hinkley Point nuclear power station. A contract awarded by Mrs May against the advice of the British Security services. The Chinese also have an option to build another nuclear power station.
So together with Huawei and its involvement in the roll-out of 5G the Chinese have built up an impressive portfolio in some very strategically important areas within the UK.
What Geeo says @11:30am.
Sky news this morning saw a Scottish journalist pointing out that Northern Ireland didn’t vote for Brexit and that it was being imposed on them just the same as in Scotland
At that point he was immediately cut off by a *technical problem*
These things are NOT accidents, have you never wondered why all TV presenters have louder voices than the guests they interview? Well of course they don’t, their microphones are turned up louder so they can drown out the guest whenever they want
Listen to Adam Boulton who practically mumbles yet the slightest raising of his voice drowns out everybody, Andrew Neil employs the same thing, as did Paxman, as do all of them
I’ve been in showbusiness all my life, the sound guy worked for me, as did the lighting guy, I was in charge, guests? Pftt totally unimportant
Afternoon all.
Hopes and expectations from this announcement?
A line in the sand with a date for indyref2 if Scotland’s terms are not met would be brilliant.
A non committal statement about continuing to fight Scotland’s corner with a vague threat of indy somewhere down the line would be a disappointment.
If it’s in between then let’s hope for something nearer the first one.
Today will see a concerted effort by all broadcasters to ignore as much as possible any doings in the Scottish parliament even to the extent as we’ve already seen of informing Scotland that no matter what we might say we’re not important enough to listen to and we can’t do or say anything without permission from on high
This was the very tactic used on Ireland that led to people becoming enraged by the English government’s use of power to silence people
They’re doing it to us and crossing their fingers either that somebody does something violent so they can impose even more shit on us or that we just fade away if they keep telling us we don’t want what we say we do
It’s 2019 and Scotland isn’t Ireland, they had no power at that time, Scotland does have power and now many International friends and allies plus all the oil all the sea all the water all the bloody everything
@Legerwood
This is a species of foreign investment model that an independent Scotland ought not to follow.
The Chinese so called Belt and Road initiative is a form of neo-colonialism. I have seen it at work in ME countries, it feeds into and profits from endemic corruption. It also creates technological dependency.
Let the English have their infrastructure owned by foreigners, they seem to lack pride in such matters, Scotland must stay well clear.
Hinckley has already been critiqued as a bad choice both financially and technically.
jfngw says:
24 April, 2019 at 11:28 am
BBC Scotland feels no need to transmit the FM live when they have Brian Taylor available to ‘interpret’ the speech for the masses. After all he has already pronounced what is about to be said.
So the FM’S words will be spoken by an actor?
The BBC just can’t help oozing contempt, like a festering sore.
@jfngw says: 24 April, 2019 at 11:39 am:
” … We can say for as long as we want that the pound is as much ours as theirs but if control of it lies with them then it is purely a symbolic claim.”
I’m not going to enter into debate, jfngw. I’m fed up making the same points over and over again to people who do not listen.
The Bank of England has NEVER belonged to the Kingdom of England. It began as a subscription scheme to bail out a deeply in debt Crown/Parliament of England. It then got a Royal Warrant as a private company called, “The Governor & COMPANY of the Bank of England”, (Because the England parliament banked with it).
It remained a private company, after the Treaty of Union. Then, in 1946, it was nationalised by, “THE UNITED KINGDOM”.
It thus belongs as much to The Kingdom of Scotland as it does to the Kingdom of England. Got it now, jfngw?
It is NOT an English Asset it belongs to the United Kingdom and there are only two equally sovereign kingdoms in the United Kingdom. Ironically there has not been a legal parliament of England since 30 April 1707 and Westminster is NOT the elected Parliament of England.
So on the union disuniting England is left without a parliament and Westminster legally represents BOTH kingdoms and thus has conflicts of interest. No court would agree they could stand in court as representing one kingdom of a two kingdom United Kingdom against only one kingdom in a case between the two kingdoms.
Now I’m finished with this debate.
Just popping in for a moment. Does anyone know if Nicola Sturgeon’s statement is going to be broadcast? If so when and where?
The 5.4 million people of Scotland are denied access to their elected Government and First Minister of that government’s statements on its constitutional future by the BBC who specifically stated that a new channel had been created to report on Scotland’s issues using Scottish taxpayers money
Instead that channel will show the regular BBC 2 sheduled programmes designed for England
Before the new channel for Scotland was created the BBC claimed that programming was for the whole of the UK, since the creation of the new BBC Scottish channel paid for by Scottish taxpayers Scottish viewers have been enjoying the doubling up of BBC 2, so in effect twice as much English programming as opposed to new Scottish content
The BBC lied to Scotland then have the temerity to charge us money to lie to us
The Ministerial Statement’s being broadcast live on the Scottish Parliament Facebook page Petra.
1.30 today, link to scottishparliament.tv
The cameras are already in the Scottish parliament yet the BBC after pocketing around £32million of Scottish taxpayers money for the new Scottish channel can’t manage to switch them on live for that £32million they said they needed to broadcast Scottish affairs
The BBC are deliberately silencing Scotland to its own people
This is worse than North Korea
@Dan 11.49: great to hear about your tatties and seaweed. We do the same – have only just finished last year’s crop, and in fact eating the ones we missed that I find as I dig the beds for other veg!
Like you we only shop once a week, and only have Tesco, so we’re adjusting what we buy and what we grow – shopping and diet made more tricky by also boycotting Spain and Israel! Good thing we like our roots, especially roasted – beetroot, carrots, parsnip, turnip, swede…
Cubby says:
24 April, 2019 at 10:26 am
‘AUOB independence march in Glasgow on Sat 3rd May.’
3rd May is a Friday. Please confirm Sat. 4th May.
The new BBC Scotland channel is broadcasting the snooker tournament instead of Sturgeons speech. Says it all really about the BBC and this channel. A Scottish channel you must be joking.
impossible to know what will happen next with brexit. ns
Indyref before 2021, no matter what. That’s the gauntlet thrown down now.
our future in our own hands
no indyref2 before brexit is known
indyres2 before the end of this parliament
referendum legislation to be put in place
a citizens assembly to be created
Had to switch off Carlaw – doesn’t seem to recognise the ‘divisiveness’ of Brexit just trundles out the usual grumblings of the Tory party in Scotland and the toady’s in Westminster and I have no intention of listening to Rennie and Leonard coming away with the same guff.
It amazes me that between them they are incapable of thought.
So Holyrood will pass legislation to hold IndyRef without S30 – have I got that right?
And what happens when WM undermines the HR legislation like they did with Scotland’s Continuity Bill? What then, FM?
Proud Cybernat says:
24 April, 2019 at 2:08 pm
So Holyrood will pass legislation to hold IndyRef without S30 – have I got that right?
And what happens when WM undermines the HR legislation like they did with Scotland’s Continuity Bill? What then, FM?
As I said before:
“Beware the Presiding Officer!”
The process is getting started which is the minimum of what many of us have wanted. Slightly flat tone to the FM speech as if she doesn’t want to fully engage yet with IndyRef2 with Brexit being allowed to determine dates.
I agree the need to make the case with or without Brexit. The democratic deficit is by far the most important aspect as I see it. However, if you are a Unionist who likes to have decisions made for you it will be hard to persuade them otherwise.
The usual ‘divisive’ slurs being thrown around in the Scottish Parliament, with each party deciding its priorities are the ones that people should agree on!
What is within the competence of the SP will yet again be called into question. And before the usual crowd descend that is the FMs own words. I agree the Presiding Officer will be the sticking point. Legal arguments will abound and bold statements with no foundation will be made on both sides UNTIL it comes to court, if it comes to court. The FM seems to be relying on the political rather than legal argument that Westminster should not refuse a S30.
So, no indyref called, Yet again. Great rhetoric, but little else from the Fm.
But she promises to call one in the future, sometime, whenever. No, really, really ,really, she really means it this time, so London better watch out or else she might, she really, really might etc….
Meanwhile Scotland is being dragged hither and tither by London over brexit.
No doubt come 2021, the next ‘announcement’ will be that we’d best wait until after the Scot parliament elections. The brexit result was in 2016, and here we have the SNP still ‘thinking’ about when they might hold indyref.
Lots of talk. Zero action. I hope they enjoy their last couple of years in ‘power’.
Anyway, independence now safely kicked into touch for the duration of their party conference, where they will talk a lot about independence…in theory, anyway.
The SNP, still on bended knee, asking England’s permission to go to the freaking toilet. Meanwhile Theresa May will be laughing her socks off at just how timid the SNP have become. Deservedly so.
They will not get my vote.
Nichola said Holyrood will do all the preparatory work getting every thing in place before asking for a S30 to hold the referendum. She feels Westminster will be in no position to refuse.
Nichols said that Holyrood would do all the preparatory work before asking for a section 3o order. She feels Westminster would be in no position to refuse.
OK
link to gov.scot
My reading of this is that it answers the second concern, we’re having an Indy Ref regardless of Brexit, even if Article 50 is revoked and the UK doesn’t leave the EU. Good.
But it doesn’t address “Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against our will” if Brexit proceeds next October.
It’s a 50%, we might have to wait to see if the Brexit 50% is addressed, but it is progress in the right direction all the same.
So from me, half hooray, half boo.
Robert louis 2.28, watch it again you seem to have missed something important !
@Robert Louis
Having one in this parliamentary term, doesn’t mean it can’t be in say September. And if that “framework bill” is in place, it puts a lot of pressure on getting the S30, which is Sturgeon’s “preferred” route – as it should be for all of us, as it makes the whole thing smooth and unchallengable.
For me it’s another wait and see, so my fuel gauge shows 50% full, and if it gets tapped a bit, maybe it’ll shoot up to full!
Wait and see – yet again, and perhaps that is the best can be done until, yet again, Brexit is clarified.
Meanwhile there is still the SNP manifesto promise to “give Scotland a Choice”, and the rhetoric “Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against our will”.
There are perhaps 6 months to see if that promise will be kept, or is it broken and the rhetoric empty. The jury isn’t really out yet, there’s still evidence to hear, and the murder of Scotland is still in progress 🙂
Patience is difficult.
Something we must all bear in mind …. the mandate is to hold IndyRef2 if Scotland is taken out of the EU against her will. At the moment that’s still just a threat, it hasn’t happened.
The mandate could not have triggered IR2 with EURef or the A50.
Nicola cannot name a date for IR2 when we don’t even know when (or even if) Brexit will happen.
Now, some might argue there is plenty of alternative reasons to call an IR2 but Brexit is the biggest and best reason.
So we wait. But what I definitely do hope is the time isn’t wasted. Campaigning needs to start. Folks who aren’t politically engaged day to day need to start thinking about Indy being the best outcome on offer.
What of Nicola’s offer of broad talks on areas of agreement? I may be wrong, but I suspect she knows BritNats will never cooperate. Same as her compromise approach to Brexit… she must know the Tories will not accommodate anything an SNP gov proposes!
unionists only argument
“the people of scotland dont want indyref2 or independence”
and that’s it folks
recent polling shows that support for indy is about 48-52 against. it also shows a large number of undecideds in these polls.
i believe we are on the verge of a shift in our favour.
yesindyref2
I admire your positive attitude.
When will the legislation be on the table (start next week??), WHEN will the section 30 request be made (by June??), and WHAT will be done (and how quickly) when it is refused (as it will) again.
Timelines, or it is meaningless.
OK, further opinion as I have to do some business phone calls.
If this is a game of brinkmanship between Sturgeon and May, Sturgeon is still in the game. She’s put the backstop in play – we have Indy Ref 2 before the end of this parliamentary session, regardless of Brexit or no Brexit. Which is what a lof of us wanted anyway, there’s been enougn material changes and indeed, devolution is under severe threat, to trigger one part of the triple mandate.
But a pre-Brexit referendum is still on the cards, and May still can’t just revoke Article 50 to beat Sturgeon in the game of bluff and double-bluff.
So I’m probably completely in favour of what Sturgeon just did.
God help me!
My take on the offer of talks/requesting ideas for new suggestions for change from the Britnat parties is to head off a Vow2 coming along during indyref2. Get the Britnats to say now what extra powers they would concede (if any) rather than as per the 2014 vow.
Independence is coming.
galamcennalath at 248pm,
The mandate is not just IF we actually leave the EU, it is if their is material change of circumstances. I think overriding legal holyrood legislation is mandate enough. Destroying Scottish jobs by planning to forcibly remove Scotland from the EU, is mandate enough. Their are many, many other examples.
@Robert Louis “When will the legislation be on the table”
That’s a crunch question 🙂 It has to be very soon to keep that other 50% pre-Brexit option open.
As for the S30 request, as soon as Brexit date is clear, or some time soon after Article 50 is revoked and the UK stays in the EU. It’s options open, and confusion to the enemy.
Meanwhile, Sturgeon has perhaps full mobilisation, and exercises on the border. Watch out for that feint and the reserves coming in!
” Westminster will reject Nicola Sturgeon’s plans but saying no to Scotland and disadvantaging Scotland is what they like to do and the Scottish FM knows it – the game is afoot. “
link to businessforscotland.com
Timing is tricky. If there’s going to be a UKGE, the most likely time IMO will be right after May’s “deal” – however modified – or some Brexit replacement – gets through WM and May can bow out with as much grace as she can muster.
Which would evidently also be the same timing as IR2.
Not too sure how that would work out. 2017 repeated, albeit with the SNP likely to do much better this time round. But an unwelcome diversion all the same.
Robert Louis says:
They will not get my vote
————————
rl, the veruca salt of wings 🙂
Nicola’sspeech is online for anyone who wants to check out what she said. Couple of excerpts below:
link to news.gov.scot
Mmm, I might change what I was saying, if this is a valid quote from Sturgeon’s speech by Sturgeon:
———
“That is why I consider the choice between Brexit & a future for Scotland as an independent, European nation should be offered in the lifetime of this Parliament.
“If Scotland is taken out of the EU, the option of a referendum on independence within that timescale must be open”
————
Thas doesn’t say Indy Ref 2 regardless, and it doesn’t seem to give any hope of Indy Ref 2 BEFORE Brexit.
Which would make it 0% satisafaction from me.
But the 2 statement are not actually consistent, one implies a choice, one implies no choice.
Confusing, and not just to “the enemy”.
By the Herald I meant.
Hi Robert J. Sutherland at 3:12 pm.
You typed,
“Timing is tricky. If there’s going to be a UKGE, the most likely time IMO will be right after May’s “deal””
and
“Not too sure how that would work out. 2017 repeated, albeit with the SNP likely to do much better this time round. But an unwelcome diversion all the same.”
In the event of an imminent GE, the SNP should campaign on a mandate that if a majority of SNP MPs are returned from Scottish seats, then Scots have voted for them to immediately begin preparations for independence, ie negotiation with Westminster and so on. No indyref2 required.
re. patience. Time for some Positive Psychology?
link to positivepsychologynews.com
@Robert Louis
I might completely reverse my opinion, I’ll have to read the full speech when I have time (thx Capella for the link). Some of that quote looks like rhetoric and fluff.
It’s going to happen or make me an offer
That’s what the FM said knowing perfectly well the offer will be NAW! thus denying the people of Scotland their democratic right of choice they expressed by electing a pro Independence party of government
Nobody in their right mind expects the Tories or Labour or the Federal party to actually come up with something else and the FM and indeed all of us know that
The SNP will prepare the legislation for power transfer, present it to Westminster and dare them to openly state they are a dictatorship by refusal of that section 30 transfer
The FM didn’t mention the legal route because everyone knows it’s the big fat elephant in the room that Westmister can’t ignore, if they do try ignoring it they’ll bring a world of legal hurt on themselves and they know it
The FMs statement was well crafted delivered and contained the positive meaning that won’t be lost on Westmister, they will have heard exactly what she meant even though it was couched in all that soft comfy malleable language
Don’t think for one second because the FM is Mrs Nice Guy she isn’t capable of being a velocirapter, and I have no doubt when the time comes *this clever girl* will come at them from every angle
Nicola Sturgeon’s been preparing 30 years for this moment and Westminster smells like lunch so she’s not going to alert the prey by snarling noisily before she bites
Trying to untie indyref2 from Brexit is a smart move as the latter is likely to rumble on for years.
Still a bit disappointed at the vagueness re dates and the almost apologetic tone at times from the FM when talking about indy.
Ian Blackford has impressed lately in the commons with his passion about Scotland’s right to self determination. That was missing from NS and that’s a shame.
Anyway, a fairly solid ‘steady as she goes’ type announcement which is probably all NS feels able to give at the moment.
I see the usual suspects dripping their poison into Wings even before the Holyrood session was over.
It indicates preconceived mindsets. It is not too hard to see what their real agenda is and I could have shown exactly who they would be even before the session had begun. They just couldn’t wait for Nicola to finish to get their knives into the FM/SG/SNP backs.
Sensible statement from our FM . Putting the unionists “ on notice” whilst nothing to dramatically shift the focus of the establishment and their “ wholly owned” propaganda outlets away from the current main focus of the “ disastrous Brexit ongoing shambles” and probable “ internal coup” against the “ hapless May” as a result of the “ Grand Canyon” split in the Tory party . With the possibility of an out and out Brexiteer taking over from May ( eg Boris J.), our FM must know that this will only further the cause of Independence via another sizeable shift to “ Yes” by the Scottish people. In the short to medium term , time would appear to be on our side and I continue to put my faith in our FM to “ play her cards” astutely as she has done so very well recently.
yesindyref2
Perhaps I might clear your confusion at 3.24pm.
Nicola Sturgeon has no intention of making any decisive push for Independence, as that may endanger her very nice berth as First Minister.
The latest cunning plan is the Citizens Assembly which can waste two years waffling about “compromises” around “federalism”.
I really don’t understand how much evidence of the truth of this analysis would need to accumulate, and over how many years, before this rather evident state of affairs became accepted by my fellow regular devotees of this site.
a sop to the adolesent types in the yes movement and their relentless “are we there yet” bleating.
for everyone else, as you were,
Having just had time to catch bits of the statement, it seems to me that Nicola has served notice on WM that refusal of a S.30 WILL result in action which absolutely leads to Scotland’s Parliament ending the Treaty of Union regardless.
We have effectively removed a S.30 refusal from the WM gameplan.
We also appear to have served notice that WE in Scotland, shall drive the narrative on timing etc.
The offer to engage all parties is also clever, by challenging them to present ideas as to why the Union is better than indy, negates 2 things.
1. It takes away the Unionists negative whining strategy, as we can simply ask, if xyz is “SNP BAD” then WHAT do YOU suggest via the new forum to do better ?
2. It removes the credibility of a last minute fake ‘Vow’ as we can simply say, “why didn’t you mention this via the forum we put in place asking what you wanted”?
Without a proper review of the whole statement, thats all i have to say for now, clearly the legislation needs to get started on, so the Sleekit tactics of the PO’s office can be dealt with before it can be a problem.
What i have seen so far, looks pretty good and about as much as can be done in the meantime.
Should certainly panic the unionist horses a tad.
@Robert Peffers
It’s all the imaginary sword waving and pretendy outrage and the attempts in pointing out the powers Scotland’s parliament doesn’t have that undermines the very case they pretend they’re making, all culminating in what they really want to say which is the SNP are rubbish see we told you so
Pathetic!
Dr Jim @ 3.29pm
Excellent post, exactly what i was trying to say.
I see Craig Murray’s personal bitterness has finally shown itself.
Nae wonder the SNP didn’t want you.
Brian Doonthetoon @ 15:25,
Yes, that’s the best response. There certainly seems to be virtual unanimity that the SNP should put indy right up there in big neon lights at the next UKGE, if that’s the first of those two challenges to be addressed.
Despite Thatcher’s previous pronouncement on that subject, no doubt the opposition will argue that it has to be 50%+1 of the votes cast, or even of the total electorate (where the dead and shiftless get to vote no). But at least it’s one contest they can’t avoid.
But the EU elections should prove interesting first!
Citizens Assembly? Jesus Wept.
When the SNP had 56 MPs and a mandate from the voters For independense all they had to do was declare it even Margaret Thatcher said all Scotland had to do to gain independense was have enough MPs well the SNP did nothing and are still doing nothing the only tlme they did was when their MPs walked out of Westminster and the membership went up by thousands you see people want deeds not words believe me I support the SNP and all the good things they have done but I feel they must use their power while they are in power or people will become disheartened and they will lose power
“If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies will float by.” – Sun Tzu
@Dr Jim
I hope you’re right, and thinking about this the last few days, with that problem of the possibility of A50 being revoked, or even a GE, I couldn’t see what she could do – apart from make clarification where possible, and set out some sort of roadmap. I’m going to read her full speech, with the knowledge that she is very precise and careful in what she says. And maybe hold my counsel and my peace – wait and see as we – and she – have been forced to do for so long.
@Craig Murray
Unlike some I do have a lot of sympathy for wont of a better word, with your view. It’s a big toughie, and I don’t think any of us should be complacent and let the pressure drop. To put it another way, it needs rebels 🙂
But regardless, it is some progress, even on the worst interpretation of what she’s saying. There should be an actual undated referendum bill sitting in place, ready to go, but I do have complaints about “by the end of the year” – it should be way earlier than that, June at the latest.
But, another but, smoking too many roll-ups I daresay, it does keep pressure on, while keeping cards up the sleeve, And with such a Bill in place, it could be a bare 3 months from decision to Referendum.
I’m open-minded, a lot of people say that about me 😎
Abulhaq at 12:42 pm
Agree about avoiding the Chinese model.
Would also point out that they are heavily involved in Africa too and not always to the advantage of the African countries who let them in.
Dr Jim 11.45
You’re way off the mark there with what you said about everyone thinking Canada’s great. Canada used to be quite widely seen as a kind of sane version of the US but these days, not so much. They’ve lost their way since Harper got in and there’s been nothing much better since.
Ask any thinking Canadian about it.
@Merkin Scot says: 24 April, 2019 at 3:52 pm:
” … Citizens Assembly? Jesus Wept.”
Who is this Jesus guy you speak about?
Didn’t the story go that the Romans executed him 2019 or 2020 years ago? Wasn’t he supposed to return again but hasn’t yet made it again? Are you expecting him back soon?
The feeling grows that the current SNP leadership is not going to pull any surprises from the strategic hat. Seems we must play by the rules, but whose rules?
A citizens assembly sounds like a ‘king’s new clothes’ conceit.
Something is not right in the kingdom of Scotland. Is the locomotive running out of energy and grinding to a halt?
robbo @ 11.57 am
The USA may not be a formal signatory to the Good Friday Agreement but the certainly had a lot to do with it happening at all. Do the names, President Clinton and Senator Mitchell ring any bells with you?
As recent statements from leading American politicians have demonstrated they are still invested in the continued application of the Agreement in Ireland north and south.
Not so Mr Trump. As I pointed out in my original post he has withdrawn the US from agreements that the US has actually signed therefore is unlikely to recognise those that the US has not signed even if the US invested time and effort bringing them about such as the GFA.
If he thinks there is an advantage to the US in terms of trade by getting the GFA set aside in some way then he will work towards that.
yesindyref2@4.25pm
I know Nicola referenced an indyref bill by “the end of the year” but if need be, a bill can sail through parliament in around a week, especially when there is a majority for it.
As for ‘sleekit Ken’ trying to delay any such legislation again, you circumvent that by declaring a motion to dissolve the Treaty of Union to be voted on to protect the interests of the Scottish people from aggressive ‘outside’ interference on a Scottish matter.
WM certainly does not have legal authority over Scotland re: our remaining membership of the legally equal Treaty of Union.
We charged our elected MSP’s to protect our best interests, we elected a pro indy majority at Holyrood, with that comes a certain level of expectation regarding matters from agents of WM, like ‘sleekit ken’, to be dealt with, which best protects us.
Ken says “ask WM SC to rule on no S.30 Holyrood Bill”
I say “lets put a dissolution of the Treaty of Union motion to Holyrood and declare Scotland reverted back to pre Treaty of 1707 status with immediate effect” and inform the international courts/community that Scotland has entered the building.
No point asking betty to sign that off, sleekit ken, as we will have just effectively sacked her pending that affirmation plebiscite.
Main point here, we can get a referendum bill through Holyrood in very short order if required.
Now WM knows “not now” or “No S.30” is not going to fly, WE have effectively took that WM option/strategy off the table.
So the question to be asked is, when WM says No, and we say, “tough titty, we are doing it anyway”, what will WM do next ?
Go to the courts ?
That might work at the WM sponsored, SC concept, but it will not fly in international courts.
We know we are sovereign, we know the protections afforded to Scots Law and that people’s sovereignty (hell, WM recently accepted that very fact unopposed) and we have such evidence in black and white (treaty of union) to present in the right places.
WM has nothing but bkuff and bluster.
If today has only made WM realise “not now” is going to be met with “want a fecking bet and hère’s why”? then that works for me.
Not gave much away, but effectively took “No S.30” (without consequences) off the table and said, “look, we are starting without you (legislation) what you gonna do about THAT ?
Not bad days work imo.
@geeo
I read her full speech, took my time, thought about it, and it’s just the ticket, 100%.
The PO isn’t really a problem, it didn’t stop the EU Continuity Bill, the SG just ignore him and carried on, as is it’s right. And yes, a Bill can be pushed through, given a priority, other business cancelled if neccessary. Dog licences might have to wait a bit 🙂
And when passed, there’s just one month to challenge before it gets Royal Assent, and after the lesiurely UKSC case about the Continuity Bill, that can be quoted as precedent, and UKSC “urged” to get a move on, like within a week or so.
Meanwhile the passage of the Bill through Holyrood is hanging over the Unionists’ heads, like the sword of
DamocleseBruce. All through 2019 if needs be. Sad innit! Don’t panic Mr Unionist, oops, too late. Clean up on aisle 3. We’re going to need more nappies.@yesindyref2
“Outbreak of skitters in British Nationalist households” reported.
Verbal and otherwise !
Watch as they try convince themselves that somehow indy is dead still .
Scotsgov: “We will hold indyref2 with or without a S.30”.
Media: “Sturgeon cancels independence obsession, nothing to see here”
Yeah, ok then 🙂
@ Sarah at 1:17 pm
I already boycott various products for a number of reasons.
I just wish more folk were switched on and understood the power they actually have and how they could potentially make a difference.
Far too many folk don’t appear to care. Show them pics of new plastic continents forming in the oceans and wildlife dying from that pollution and they’ll think it’s terrible, but will they have the discipline to boycott purchasing food in ridiculous amounts of plastic packaging…
Plastic contains a high level of calorific value, more so than some fuels which we pay a fortune for. Modern technologies can utilise that embedded energy yet the State fails to have adequate infrastructure in place to deal with the waste that same State generates. That’s a pathetic indictment of where we as a supposed advances society are.
We could put a plastic tax on the production of packaging at source to set up and cover the reprocessing costs.
I’ve heard of firewood being imported from other countries because the economics of doing so make it profitable. Think of how much energy it must take to process and then transport tonnes of wood across the continent. There’s nothing environmentally sound about that business model with the renewable energy potential Scotland is blessed with.
Earlier today I heard of glass bottles being imported from Slovakia because they are cheaper than can be procured here. Cheaper in monetary value but at what cost to the environment?
Scotland is huge! I rode my motorbike around it about a year ago and the shear scale of unused space and fertile ground is absolutely staggering.
So far my wee bit of soil has blackcurrants, gooseberries, strawberries, tatties, onions, beetroots, carrots, corjettes, runner beans, tomatoes, lettuce, spinach and various herbs growing, with more to go in soon.
All that food very locally sourced with no packaging or transport implications.