Changes to the SNP’s indyref policy
Posted on
June 27, 2017 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
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A tall tale
Wee Books
Video
Probably a robbery
Transphobia
Yup!
Good movie?
🙂 Beautifully articulated Rev, as per. So glad we have you to skewer the sewer.
But, but, but Severin says…
(no comment(s))
Yep, that about sums it up.
Totally agree. Some people on a football forum I’m on, seem to get the polar opposite of that from the statement today! I’m doing my best to put them right!
No change, well constructed speech by Nicola. No change, steady as we go towards Independence.
Kevin Maguire? hoodwinked
Kevin Maguire?
Verified account
@Kevin_Maguire
1 hour ago
SNP faithful in denial despite Sturgeon announcing today she “will reset the plan I set out on March 13th” this year for an early referendum
Brilliant article, Rev.
Couldn’t have been more succinct in a month of Sundays.
Had a response from SNP HQ re this.
Seems they’re suggesting there’s more to indy than Brexit.
In other words I think nothing has changed but they seem to think they might be reaching out to the leave voters?
Good. Now we can focus on the brexit means brexit plan.
As the BBC puts it …
” Unionist opposition parties in the Scottish Parliament claimed Ms Sturgeon had not gone far enough, and that “nothing has changed”. “
… wow, they actually all got it right this time!
Ah, but she said that the Scottish people will have a vote at the end of the process.
Previously she said that the people of Scotland will have a vote at the end of the process.
If that’s not a humiliating U-turn, then i’m the Colonel of the Eurasian Light Drum Bangers!
Have to allow for a new material change of circumstance, like the UK Government e.g.s new PM, new Party or just simply having one at all would be an unexpected surprise at the moment.
So it’s as expected last week. Sit back, rest, plan and regroup with #Yes activists .
Be at the ready for when we go again.
Correct, Rev.
I actually think this was the FM’s most assertive speech on the subject yet, with the biggest hint to the movement to get active.
On the same point, I’ve seen that my hometown does not currently have a Yes group/hub (I don’t know who was in charge of it in 2014). I’m not sure I’m really ‘the guy’ to get it all started and enthuse people but…..is there guidance anywhere for how to get it all up and running?
Some of the comments on the Beeb article are priceless.
Rest of UK somehow better off by £17B after Scot independence?
No, I don’t know how either.
One in reply to a bizarre “remember Culloden” post makes simplistic comment about House of Stewart restoration – screw the generation of redcoat garrisons, ruination of clan system and the Highland culture, general othering of Scots.
just eejits opening their mooths and letting their bellies rumble, as per usual.
Perfect. The threat of a referendum will ensure that Theresa May is in no position to use Scotland’s resources as bargaining chips during the Brexit negotiations. Should she do so then the fire for independence will only be stoked further.
[…] Wings Over Scotland Changes to the SNP’s indyref policy 1. No changes. 2. This article is […]
Yup. ?
It’s time.
Brilliant Stu. Online already!
……………………………….
Some suggestions:
Let’s get going. Join the SNP and / or donate some money. PLEASE.
link to snp.org
And I was just thinking that it might be a good idea to involve ex-pats from around the World. What about compiling a list of Scottish Clubs etc, like this one for example.
link to rampantscotland.com
Get someone on here to draft a letter basically asking them to support us financially. Divvy up the list between us, print a letter off and send. Worth a try don’t you think?
……………………….
@ Sarah says at 3:41 pm …. ”A few suggestions from my area which I’m praying will help the cause. 1. Be visibly pro-Yes: fly a saltire; car stickers; a factual poster of some kind in your car i.e. make your car a billboard as has been suggested BTL here.”
Spot on Sarah. Make your own poster for your car on your computer or by hand, such as mention the McCrone Report, Stolen Seas, how much (little) power has been delegated to Holyrood, GERS figures relate to the Union, Scotland is swimming in oil – What Norway takes in versus Scotland (just some examples). Keep it simple and add your Youtube reference.
Maybe someone like IndyPosterBoy could start rattling off some of these simple messages to fit the side window of a car or long and low to place in the rear window?
……………………….
Where’s Nana? I wonder if InformScotland would consider choosing one (or more) key issues, such as £15 billion black hole / GERS and getting the billboards up?
……………………….
If you’ve got some real cash to spare (or joint venture) what about renting a premises and broadcasting Youtube videos?
Watched proceedings live. Noticed the howls of indignation when Nicola mentioned the wider YES movement.
It really hurts when the Unionists are forced to admit that it isn’t, and never was, all about the SNP.
Izat a Fact!
Scotland in Union
******************
Hello, Hello, Wearrapeople,
In a statement to the Scottish Parliament today, the First Minister had the opportunity to show real leadership and put the interests of the Scottish people ahead of her party’s.
She fell well short.
Instead of listening to the majority of Scots tired of her referendum antics, Nicola Sturgeon demonstrated outright contempt for the country.
The response to her election losses is to crank up the government’s grievance machine and signal she will be putting all her efforts into exploiting Brexit to achieve independence.
The General Election confirmed what poll after poll has shown – the people of Scotland do not want another referendum on Scottish independence.
By failing to accept this, Nicola Sturgeon has shown how desperate and out of touch she has become.
There can be no doubt she intends to keep spoiling for another referendum. Her failure to remove these threats today is a sign she is prepared to risk our country’s future on her party’s obsession.
In the face of this endless drive to break up the UK, Scotland in Union will continue to make the positive case for Scotland remaining in partnership with our friends and neighbours.”
Assuming, of course, that they can find something positive to say
😎
Peace Always
Thought so, Nicola Sturgeon is not going to be bullied by the unionist establishment as we all know.
How will the yoon media try to spin this now. 🙂
Brexit, either the Tories keep on with their swithering, with the rEU laughing their heads off at the sheer incompetance of them, or they include Scotland in the talks with the EU, about the best way forward.
Scotland has the Britnats by the short n curlies basically. Include us, or lose us!
That’s some of your best work, to date; bravo!
There is no substantive change, that is true. The language of “reset” is a gift to MSM, however, and I am not sure this is a simple issue
As I see it, the announcement was that the timetable for legislation has changed: nothing else. There are pro’s and cons, I think and on a first look these points occur to me.
1. The mandate for indy ref derives from brexit. It did not rely on single market membership, but on membership of the EU. I have never really understood why that was diluted, but that is the decison that was taken
2. I believe that the whole GE debacle was designed by corporates and tory grandees to ensure that there would be no hard brexit. I think the plan went awry, because they are inherently incapable of judging the will for change anywhere, and especially in England. So they overegged the hostility to Ms May and left it too late to turn it around so as to secure a much smaller majority than originally predicted.
3. One effect of the result in Scotland is that Ms D and her tory MP’s do have a great deal of potential power to secure that soft brexit, and they are working with the grain of those who engineered this mess. I sincerely doubt they will use it, but they might.
4. If they do there is a real possibility of an early GE, despite the DUP factor.
5. If there is an early GE (for any reason) and it is before Autumn ’18, what happens to this timetable? In any event it means a short campaign, but an early GE may mean no indy campaign at all until after that election
6. A GE may well result in some kind of soft brexit, and if that is the outcome the mandate for indyref is gone, surely?
7. A GE may return a Corbyn govt: in that case will Scots who were driven to the SNP because of red tories return to the fold in numbers? KD makes that unlikely but one can envisage a real change in SLAB in those circs
8. On the other hand, with no active proposal for indy now the Scottish tories will have to show their actual hand in terms of Scotland’s interests; brexit; and their intentions on NHS, austerity etc. That may well play badly for them
In these circumstances we must build the case for independence on the basis of substantive things and not on brexit alone as is currently the position. I never thought brexit was the game changer SNP seemed to believe, but their statement that indy is about much more seems right to me and that is the case we have to make now. Much work
Oh the relief…
link to imgur.com
Purr-fect!
Usual pish from DM.
High time a Scottish history book was introduced in Scottish schools. Start with William Wallace and bring it to the present day. There are people out there who are woefully ignorant of the most basic of facts. Father in law 86. Didn’t know how Scotland was funded. Had never heard of Barnet. Fishermen who think the SNP gave away the fishing ground instead of Heath.
With a book in the schools we can catch the next voters as they come of age.
Yes, I’ll sleep happier tonight.
We should all trust Nicola, she speaks from the heart and really does want the best for Scotland. How lucky we are to have such a Leader.
Stu, best, most succinct blog ever, methinks!!
The media are frothing at the mouth to monster Nicola and the SNP.
My answer to normalise support for Independence is to wear a wee SNP badge on my lapel.
I smile a lot and am amazed at the frequent signs of approval with a smile or a thumbs up.
Yes folks ,a wee SNP or YES badge just to say Independence is the normal position for a country.
I don’t get too bothered about the Daily Heil, The Torygraph and the dear old Gruinard – they’re London papers, to whom we Scots are the people of a small, far-away country, of which they know nothing and care even less.
But, I am becoming increasingly annoyed at the terribly low standards of journalism on the Herald. Their headline has the FM postponing the referendum, when, as we all know, she is sticking to the timetable she has been following since Holyrood gave her the mandate to hold one.
This is, the issue will be put to Scotland once the details of Brexit is known, hopefully by the autumn of 2018.
I blame the SNP’s terrible mismanagement of Scottish education for the fact journalists on what is supposedly one of Scotland’s top papers cannot understand what the FM has always said on this matter, and continues to say on this matter.
SNP Bad!!! Aye Right!!!
Good stuff. I was getting edgy that all this unionist talk of disregarding democracy in Scotland (effectively trying to instigate a coup) might, incredibly, find some sort of traction.
I’m still shocked that some Scots would bin democracy for tory rule, but there you go.
There is as important difference between the First Minister’s statements of 13 March and today, encapsulating a crucial change in timing and in the order of events.
Here she is in March: “if Scotland is to have a real choice – when the terms of Brexit are known, but before it is too late to choose our own course – then that choice should be offered between the autumn of next year, 2018, and the spring of 2019.” In other words, the referendum itself would be within that period.
And here she is today: “at the end of this period of negotiation with the EU – likely to be around next autumn – when the terms of Brexit will be clearer, we will come back to Parliament to set out our judgment on the way forward, including our view on the precise timescale of offering people a choice over the country’s future.” So now the position is that we are only to get a further statement within that period, not the actual referendum.
I do not see how this can be described as anything other than a retreat.
Concise, articulate and intelligent analysis, Rev.
The BBC are trying to convince their faithful suckers that at some time Nicola has proposed an Immediate referendum and that today she has scrapped that plan.
Perhaps The BBC, MSM, Col. Blimpruth, Dugdale and Rennie be put on the spot and asked to tell us when she said that.
For those who don’t listen. R4 headline on this is “Nicola Sturgeon has scrapped plans for an independence referendum until after UK has left the EU”
Alan
A retreat is when you turn around and go the other way. To advance in a more measured way is still an advance. The next 18 months has to focus on Brexit and the omnishambles that is the May Government. Davidson and Dugdale have hidden behind No Surrender for the last 14 months covering three elections. Time the spotlight fell back on them and their problems while we quietly rebuild our networks and preparations.
BBC 5 live going with the Nicola monsters, courtesy of a statement from the ruthfuhrer and Willie Winkie on live. If he said he didn’t trust the FM once he must have said it a dozen times. He actually said he has a hidden agenda… Would that be independence perhaps ?
So Brexit is important but it’s not just about this. I’m pleased to see other explicit messages from the FM today:
1) “But the case for an independent Scotland is not just about Brexit – it goes far beyond that. Many of us believe that independence is the right and best answer to the many, complex challenges we face as a country – and also the best way to seize and fully realise our many opportunities as a country.”
And then this statement that is relevant to building momentum:
2) “So the challenge for all of us who do believe that Scotland should be independent is to get on with the hard work of making and winning that case – on all of its merits – and in a way that is relevant to the changes, challenges and opportunities we face now and in the years ahead.”
And finally, there was a clear recognition that it is not all about the SNP either and of the important role of the wider Yes movement:
3) “That is what my party will do (making and winning the case for independence). We won’t do it on our own – because the independence case is bigger than us too. My party will engage openly and inclusively with, and work as part of, the wider independence movement.”
Argh!! Predictive ^^^ she has a hidden agenda ^^^
Vambomarbeleye says:
27 June, 2017 at 5:15 pm
Usual pish from DM.
High time a Scottish history book was introduced in Scottish schools. Start with William Wallace and bring it to the present day.
Scotland’s a wee bit older than William Wallace. He new then he was fighting for an ancient nation and peoples.
I wonder what he would say to the colonel blimps of this uk with or without a sash?
The Unionists have been trying to dissociate IndyRef2 from Brexit. Their narrative … Brexit is something which, in response to the will of the UK voters, will happen … while IndyRef2 is something the SNP want to inflict on Scotland.
To exaggerate this separation, they pretend IndyRef2 is either imminent, or in the never never. Clearly in a timetable unrelated to Brexit.
Today Nicola reinforced the direct connect between Brexit and IndyRef2, thus undermining the Unionist narrative totally. A significant blow, I would claim.
May quoted “Now is not the Time”, and hinted that we had to wait until after Brexit. Davidson nodded n agreement, like the Churchill Dog saying, “Oh, Yes, Yes, Yes”. So now it’s probably to be held simultaneous to the next Scottish Parliament Election in 2021, which means we will still be in the Union for the next Westminster Elections in 5 years, even with a yes, we will still either be negotiating, or have a Treaty signed still to be voted on, or to come into effect.
So May and Davidson. Is 2021 the time? Or will the Unionist Pricks come up with another goal post moving moment? Let’s hope the Queen is still alive then, or they will use her death as an excuse to vote no.
Shower of Unionist Scumbags. They will use anything as an excuse. Davidson really iis the scum of the Earth.
Yep, the BBC in full BritNat propaganda mode. Well I wouldn’t expect anything less to be honest. Hence the reason I don’t pay their wages.
Stupendous Stu!. Oh we do love a good bit of letting them think we are going back in the box. St Nic parton saint of Scotchland and well timed booter of unionist nads. As previous weetabix on heid wearer and top honcho of lodge 623 Brother Archie Macoheeson would say ooofffttt , GOAL!
Rev wrote:
Changes to the SNP’s indyref policy
1. No Changes
2. This article is over
You poor poor fellow, Rev, you’re overworked.
Those nice folks at the BBC have been happy to remind us the SNP lost seats ,been at it all afternoon , and that clever chappie Jackson the car man (failed) is given uninterrupted Airtime too remind us, while forgetting to mention 35 beats 24 any day of the week , Maybe thats why he could have done with a calculator it might have helped with his startling business career .
Very concise.
I take your point, HandandShrimp, but it’s a retreat from her earlier position. Ask yourself, are unionists gratified by today’s statement or not?
To be fair, wee Willie finally got it right today ‘Nothing has Chang’s, he said, through gritted teeth.
What I would LOVE to see is every senior SNP now firmly refuse to discuss it every time they are asked to speculate.
Politely but clearly repeat we have said, we are not discussing that, if you want to ask another question?
That is the only way to get it over to the public, that its the media and Opposition that use it to sicken and portray obsession.
BBC reporting that NS has shelved the idea of a second indy ref until after Brexit.
Used a quote of Colonel Gadaftie shouting at her.
Now Sarah Smith putting the knife in as the BBC tries to prove that NS is tired, lost the political momentum and is losing credibility as a leader.
Time for the pincer movement from the Yes movement to get going.
Alan
As far as I can see they are furious because Nicola has ignored their demands to take Indy off the table. I know Severin in the Guardian is spinning it as shelving Indyref but Willie Rennie is stamping his feet and wailing “nothing has changed”.
@Alan Crocket
You should have watched it live if you think this is retreat.
The Unionists were still foaming, not celebrating. Of course the media are portraying it as retreat, since when did they report facts?
Nothing has changed
Nothing. Has. Changed.
If people think that something has changed, it is only because they don’t realise that nothing has changed.
Nicola’s Statement!
link to snp.org
Peace Always
Johnny wrote on 27 June, 2017 at 4:51 pm
“I’ve seen that my hometown does not currently have a Yes group/hub (I don’t know who was in charge of it in 2014). I’m not sure I’m really ‘the guy’ to get it all started and enthuse people but…..is there guidance anywhere for how to get it all up and running?”
Get creative! I don’t know how good you are with computers etc but here’s a very simple solution which enables you to get things up and running whilst playing the lone wolf role.
Focus only on your own area, you’ll know best what makes people in your neighbourhood tick. Gather a lot of factual material from pro-indy sites such as WOS and have that material printed off on a A5 leaflet.
You can get really good deals from a multitude of printing companies at very competitive prices. Once you receive your leaflets you then have the joy of delivering them. You may even be able to afford getting a A5 booklet printed off.
If your area is historically Labour then use material that shows all the lies and deceit told to Scotland’s electorate by past and present Red Tory Rats (sincerest apologies to all rats). All the factual material is out there.
We in the Yes movement may not own the BUM propaganda machine but we sure as hell own the internet and ALL the facts. Seek them out and use them to promote your case for Scottish independence and to show that self-serving Unionist gophers truly are the scum of the earth and can never be trusted.
Have a look at just some of the prices on these two printing companies sites, i think you’ll be pleasantly surprised by just how cheap they are. Look at it this way, supposing you spent £20 on a pile of leaflets and out of all those leaflets you just managed to convince and convert one person to ‘Yes’ – £20 for a Yes vote? Cheap at half the price, don’t ya think?
Vistaprint:
link to vistaprint.co.uk
Solopress
link to solopress.com
And most printing sites have free online help for us thicko’s 😉
I’m glad Nicola is not backing down. I knew she wouldn’t. She would never allow herself to be bullied by the unionist establishment.
Let them howl and whine. Nicola, the SNP and the wider Yes movement must, as they say, keep the heid.
Sorry, but there has been a change of policy. No legislation to be put before parliament, and no seeking a section 30 order.
The overall position remains broadly similar, but the change of tactical timing is a change of policy.
Get your ideas in Now, don’t be shy!
link to mobilise.scot
Peace Always
The dishonesty of the BUMs in general and the BBC in particular is breathtaking.
Nothing has changed, Indyref2 was always scheduled for that period when the terms of Brexit were known but, before Brexit – that is still the case.
As for Sarah Smith – words fail me, that such an obviously-biased Labour supporter should be allowed to be Scotland Editor for the supposedly neutral BBC – FFS.
Enjoyed Colonel Gadaftie and Dippity Dug chucking the toys out of the pram – again.
Sev in the Guardian and most of the MSM at it with the lies as usual. However the politics sketch in the Guardian sums reality up nicely. So someone was listening.
link to theguardian.com
Stoker:
Thanks for that! Have copied your advice into a doc and will consider how I can make it a reality.
Good god….Mundell just said on BBC news that Barnett laws and rules HAVE been applied to the DUP deal !!!
Emm…..we are getting fuck all !!
@valerie @5.08pm.
My thoughts exactly re refuse to discuss indy.
When unionists and their pet media, continue to bring up indyref, they can be batted away with a simple line…
“I refer you to the statement by Nicola Sturgeon on 27th June”
If they persist, then firmly assert that….
“The statement on 27th June was very clear on the issue, no further dialogue required”.
That should piss the feckers off.
If IndyRef2 coincides with Holyrood election in 2021 then IndyRef2 could be redundant.
Stand for Holyrood on a mandate for declaring independence.
Referendum is not the normal process for determining independence.
So no IndyRef2, no S30 order required, no need to ask Westminster’s permission, we just get on with it.
We have four years to start putting the building blocks of an independent country together, lets not wait for permission or approval, lets just get it done.
Thanks Stu for your analysis.
Thanks Smallaxe for your link to the FM’s statement that confirms Stu’s analysis.
I will make a small contribution to the SNP coffers first thing tomorrow morning.
I am one of those Nicola referred to who will support Scotland’s independence always and regardless. I absolutely respect, however, her perspective that the views of all Scots must be taken into account in negotiating our path out of the UK.
@geeo
He’s using the ‘technicality’ that it is not a Barnett payment it is just a straightforward bung. Sort of protection money, ár n-rud.
In an nutshell Rev. Bang on.
geeo, Mundell will say anything cause maist o’ the time the cheil has nae idea whit he’s supposed to be talking aboot.
Smallaxe, thanks for Nicola’s speech. sounds like time to get the sleeves rolled up again.
Roland Smith wrote 27 June, 2017 at 6:39 pm
“Sev in the Guardian and most of the MSM at it with the lies as usual.” (Direct link to a BUM rag removed)
Why shouldn’t they lie? They know clowns like you will help them to promote and pay for those lies, eh, “Roland”?
Only on wings could a 6 word post attract a comment every 3 minutes for 2 and a half hours…loltastic !!
The important bit of Ms Sturgeon’s speech was :-
” … But we must persuade the majority in Scotland of that.
We have not done that yet – but I have no doubt that we can. …
That sums it all up. Just what has been said here on Wings.
To assert the people, of Scotland’s sovereignty we must just have, a democratically voted for majority, saying they want it.
Smallaxe @ 6.34
Got my 10p worth in Smallaxe,” post a copy of the McCrone report to every household in Scotland” , and a few other ideas. Education is the key. 😉
Johnny at 4.51
We’ve kept a YES group going (Forward Shop, Dunoon) and we will be kick starting a new YES initiative soon. I can let you know how we did it – dalinlongart@email.com
@Arthur Thomson
Well said.
Mike Williams 4.54pm. Exactly as i thought Mike.
@Famous15 says: 27 June, 2017 at 5:31 pm:
” … My answer to normalise support for Independence is to wear a wee SNP badge on my lapel.”
I do something similar, Famous15. I wear a YES badge on my hat, (it’s 3″ across), I still have the YES badges on the Campervan and YES stickers on the house front windows.
Like you say, it is amazing how many strangers stop me on the street and comment, encouragingly, upon them.
what will Ruthier and KEZ Have to talk about now most likey nothing will shownthem up or what they are. See the spin is still going pon though that Nicola constaly tlak about indiref2 whihc is just not true.
BBC Scotland transmit Mundell giving impromptu PPB. Apparently they are defending Scotland’s interest by supporting a bung to the DUP.
Vambomarbeleye and Hamish 100
at 5:15 pm
Agreed 100%
How can we get Scottish Education Chiefs on board?
Disgraceful that the people of one of the oldest Countries in Europe do not know their own history!
The McCrone Report on Scotland’s oil should be essential reading in Scottish secondary schools.
Homework task: Ask an adult relative or friend to test you on the content of the report before next week’s test.
This was a decision that Nicola had to take, don’t know what else she could have done other what she has done and that is state clearly that once terms of Brexit are known then a decision will be taken on putting forward the legislation required for another referendum.
The most important part is that the Scottish people must be given that choice. Let’s face it the timing is still pretty much what it has been all along, the only difference being that the actual date of the referendum might now be later than spring 2019 but before the end of this current Scottish Parliament.
Not really a big deal in my opinion, the General Election result did bite a bit, both with the SNP and the Yes movement in general. We took a hit and many are still shell shocked.
A period of reflection and rebuilding might be no bad thing, I think between now and another referendum there will be so much that can happen that would change how the SNP and the Scottish public react anyway.
An another GE obviously is a possibility and so to is the Tories storming out of the Brexit negotiations without a deal. We don’t know.
So let’s bide our time and hopefully we could use it wisely to continue to build support for Yes and most importantly do our best in trying to combat the lies and myths of the Unionist propaganda machine.
Some good ideas about that popping up here on Wings, Breeks, Petra, Sarah et al. Maybe the SNP and Greens will have some of their own. New website today focused on Independence produced by the SNP. Their looking for ideas, I’m sure a few readers on Wings have some ideas they’d like to share.
link to mobilise.scot
Good speech from Nicola. Certainly has the Unionists spinning. I downloaded and read it. Then I listened to R4 news at 6. I’m going to have to listen to it again because it sounded the closest to flat-out lying I’ve ever (knowingly) heard on Radio 4. Even Reporting Scotland was more accurate.
Even more weird, today was the first time I’ve ever heard Willie Rennie say anything remotely sensible ‘nothing has changed’.
@Alan Crocket says: 27 June, 2017 at 6:02 pm:
” … it’s a retreat from her earlier position. Ask yourself, are unionists gratified by today’s statement or not?”
Aye!
Richt!
Alan, It’s a retreat forward to the exact same place it always was.
If anything has changed then it is the time we are to be told when Brexit will mean Brexit. Nicola Sturgeon’s statement that a referendum will be after we know what Brexit means and the SNP’s opinion is that there will be a referendum after we know what Brexit means and the YES movement’s opinion is that a referendum will be held after we know exactly what Brexit means.
I’m glad Nicola dug her heels in, for to do otherwise, would have damaged the overall cause.
However, I do believe that a change in strategy is badly needed. The movement has stalled …even stagnated, therefore it seems to make sense that a new radical approach is required.
Yes Movement resurrected as an alternative option ?!?!? Did wonders prior to 2014.
I just heard a BBC announcer report that the FM had put back a indy ref “till after Brexit”. That was not what she said. She said “until the Brexit details are known”. This is entirely different. I have just phoned a complaint
It is a nightmare to try to do so but the number is 03700 100 212
That web page link to mobilise.scot is extremely poor – it doesn’t even say who/ what is behind it! We really need to up our game if we are to start broadening the debate/ buy-in.
It’s amazing how much Tory and Unionist alike believe they can carry off this bluff, all this bluster is all guff, they know Independence can’t be stopped, so their aim has been ,and will be to as a tried and tested method for hundreds of years ,divide and conquer, sow discord and doubt among the Independence movement, there are some on this site who would spread this poison ,Even with all the media at their disposal we haven’t went away, they haven’t won .
Please don’t anyone here start to believe we are losing , that’s what they want .
Show Nicola we are behind her and she can count on our support .
So.
However the Brexit negotiations go –
there will be an indyref2.
And
The EU negotiators will be aware of this if and when the UK side put any Scottish resources on the table.
Job done!
Nice one, Nicola.
Very aggressive lies in the BBC Scotland link too, from Mayhem in fact blocking ref2 outright to,
“UK Prime Minister Theresa May had earlier urged Ms Sturgeon to take the possibility of a second referendum off the table completely.”
Graun liars says its all over now anyway, its the UKOK “watershed” over Scots that want their country back from tory England and
“Support for independence and for a second referendum have both been in decline, so it clearly makes sense not to chance the issue.”
Rule Britannia, by tory media.
This Norn Ireland bullshit about being “unique” has become infinitely tiresome
in the extreme with everybody skirting around saying what they really mean
Arlene Foster said the DUP being in a coalition with the Tories was also about protecting the Union
Eh, the Norn Irish aren’t in the Union as far as I’m aware as they’re a province of England, and Wales is a Principality, so who’s Arlene Foster talking about then?
It couldnae be us could it given there are only two signatory Kingdoms and we’re the other one
Over to you Mr Peffers this is your area of expertise I’m kinda winging it here but I think I might be on to something, please tell me I am
The emphasis has moved as indyref2 legislation is now on hold. The focus is now on Brexit and the Tory party. May/Davidson and what the Tories are delivering should now be the centre of attention. They will resist and try to still talk about indyref, that is now easy to combat as there is not one directly on the table to discuss.
Plus the strategy still makes negotiating Scotland’s resources very difficult, the Europeans are hardly going to accept they are the UK governments to freely barter with. This is really what is winding up the unionists, not the people here they are merely an inconvenience to their plans.
you have exceeded yourself this time Stu this article is tooooo long winded
FM Sturgeon’s email, when the time comes…
“When the time comes, people must know why independence offers the best answer to the many complex challenges we face as a country.
That’s why the SNP will seek to support, engage and grow the independence movement – and build the case that decisions must be made by us, not for us. That work begins today. Sign up and be the first to find out about our next steps.”
Meanwhile, Scotland is both blotted out of our lives and smashed to smithereens by massed ranks of UKOK tory hackdown.
Well we did vote NO.
That lanced the boil!
Actually this is the whole email from FM Sturgeon.
Build a better Scotland
Following the general election I said that I would reflect on the outcome. And, in particular, on the issue of a second independence referendum.
Today I set out my reflections. You can read my full speech here and get a quick summary here.
Before, during and since the election, I have had hundreds of conversations. As you can imagine, these have focussed on a second independence referendum and how we get the best deal possible from Brexit.
I remain committed – strongly – to the principle of giving Scotland a choice at the end of the Brexit negotiation process, when the terms of leaving the EU are clear.
However, having listened and reflected, I have today announced my intention to reset the plan I set out on 13 March. My government will not now introduce legislation for a referendum immediately.
Right now, the Scottish Government will seek maximum support for our proposals to keep us in the Single Market. Read about these proposals here.
When the Brexit negotiations are over, I will set out my judgment to the Scottish Parliament on the way forward.
When the time comes, people must know why independence offers the best answer to the many complex challenges we face as a country.
That’s why the SNP will seek to support, engage and grow the independence movement – and build the case that decisions must be made by us, not for us. That work begins today. Sign up and be the first to find out about our next steps.
@mike cassidy
Mike that in a nutshell is what all the Unionist screaming about taking Independence off the table is all about. They are raging about being unable to negotiate Scottish assets in their favour with the EU.
The EU will laugh at them when it comes to fishing and agriculture as far as Scotland is concerned. They know this and so too does Nicola Sturgeon and us. LOL
What’s incredibly funny about this from that BBC article is that Indy supporters could be worried that Sturgeon is backtracking on an Indy ref, but the three leaders of the Scottish parties have been very nice and gone to great lengths to reassure us that Indy Ref 2 is NOT off the table.
Davidson: “”She now claims to be putting the referendum to one side. She should just give the country some certainty and take it off the table for the rest of this parliament at least.”. Summary – Davidson says Indy Ref 2 is still on the table.
Dugdale: “The first minister is digging her heels in, putting her fingers in her ears and pressing on regardless. She is just not listening.” Summary – Dugdale says Indy Ref 2 is still on the table.
Rennie: “The people spoke loud and clear at the general election that they did not want another divisive independence referendum. She should listen.” Summary – Rennie says Indy Ref 2 is still on the table.
Thanks peeps, I was worried for a minute there.
@theMadMurph
Just quote what Davidson, Dugdale and Rennie said. That’ll soon reassure them that Indy Ref 2 is where it always was – sitting on the table with the salt and sauce.
Pass the bovril.
BBC r4 tory news running their predictable yet very creepy dissimilation of this announcement today, with Patrick Harvey leading the SNP bad charge this time. Its worth a listen, if you’re a bit of a BBC anti Scottish democracy attack propaganda nerd.
Harvey clearly wants to get out of Holyrood and into Westminster but its really offputting hearing him trying. Westminster is where all the real UK power lies in teamGB, to be fair.
Statement on the SNP website (perhaps they’re starting to keep it up to date a bit more at last):
link to snp.org
I particularly like the second paragraph:
“The SNP will work openly and inclusively, as part of the wider independence movement to build the case for independence.”
Of course the britnat media will spin this however they like. Let them. Yes, oh you are so right, an independence referendum is off the table. Humour them.
Nicola Sturgeon will be asking some big questions of the Scottish britnats, the branches of UK tory, Labour and even Lib Dem, lol!
What is untRuth going to do to get a good deal for Scotland, no that uniform won’t give you any authority over May untRuth! You will do as you are told by Treeza.
Fun times, as my son says when I go on about politics!
The tories are in a mess, their union in peril, let them deal with it!
The media will never give the SNP an inch of a chance of getting the truth out, so not going to stress about the liars across the airwaves, and daily lying rags.
We have a lot to do, and independence is about far more than Brexit and the SNP.
Yeah, Glamaig. I was driving home listening to Radio 4 at 6 p.m. The headline was that Nicola Sturgeon had ditched plans for a referendum because the SNP had lost a lot of seats at the GE where the battle was all about the referendum. Luckily I had read the SNP announcement first otherwise I might have driven into a ditch.
Yes Glamaig, I heard the Radio 4 bulletin at 6 p.m. too, said that Nicola Sturgeon had abandoned plans for Indy Ref 2 because the SNP had lost a lot of seats at the last election which had been all about the referendum.
Luckily I had heard the actual announcement from Nicola Sturgeon already, otherwise I might have driven into the ditch.
See when the media so blatantly lie about “Independence referendum shelved” it doesn’t do them any favours whatsoever. It just makes most (not all) people what?
They know it’s clearly a lie so another seed of doubt about any statement they make must be sown in quite a good number of heads.
By the end of the week they will likely have changed their tune again and be back to No More Referendums!
OK, here’s a devil’s advocate, which means it’s food for thought, not neccessarily an opinoion. Or even opinion.
On the one hand Sturgeon suggests a delay to feed the anti press, and calm things down a bit, so the SNP can get on with challenging Brexit, and the DUP deal as well. Ministers will consider what to do once the results of the negotiation are known.
On the other hand the Greens, and probably the left part of YES want the original timetable, and there “appears” to be a split. Good stuff, something for the media to feed on over the next few weeks instead of Rennie bites pig stories, and Davidson blows them up with her tank while Dugdale stand back and laughs so see such fun.
So a split in YES, which means the two parts of the split can appeal to different NO and undecided voters.
Most excellent.
Many in the wider Yes movement have done nothing but carp and undermine the SNP who have carried the load – and I include myself as an armchair critic. Well done to the FM for bouncing it back. Using parliamentary majorities will never be enough as the Yoons twist and distort every legitimate vote. I love the confusion her statement has elicited.
Brexit has to be laid bare and people have to see how it will affect them personally before they think of change but there is so much more to Indy than Brexit – we need every question to be answered before it is asked. Remember in the Council elections, the currency question was raised? So we get on with a central bank, land reform, etc. Every obstacle is addressed and dealt with realistically.Then when a referendum is called we are ready.
We have to show it is normal and the only way forward.
Now then, can anyone point me in the direction of that EU website where all Brexit negotiations will be published as they happen, so everyone, including Scottish ministers, will know exactly what’s going on with the aforesaid negotiations well in advance of the actual unsatisfactory end of them?
@yesindyref2
link to ec.europa.eu
Labour thick drunk man in a pub impressionist, Neil Findlay MSP (MineSaPint), has decided to refer to FM as Saint Nicola. The poor soul thinks it’s clever like Mother Theresa, his only problem is there is to my knowledge no St Nicola, maybe he is confused with St Nicholas. Hope he is correct and we will all be getting an independence present soon.
The change in the position of the Scottish Government between March and today is absolutely clear from a reading of the First Minister’s actual statements, leaving aside the screeds of predictable and therefore empty verbiage which they both contain, and it is a substantive change – from having a referendum while the UK is still an EU member to not having one till after it has left. This has various ramifications, but most importantly, it amounts to the abandonment of some of the Scottish Government’s bargaining power to bring about a binding referendum at all. How so? Well, take just two aspects – the Indyref mandate and the Great Repeal Bill.
On the mandate, Westminster will find refusal of consent for Indyref 2 an easier sell after Brexit, by claiming that the Scottish Government has lost whatever mandate it had by declining to use it to prevent the very thing it was intended to prevent, namely Scotland being dragged out of the EU. The time to avoid being shot is before the trigger is pulled, not after.
On the Great Repeal Bill, parking Indyref 2 till after Brexit means that it will not be on the table when that bill comes up for the Scottish Parliament’s consent, thus weakening any leverage the Scottish Government might gain from threatening to withhold consent.
Of course, such things are not set in stone, but it is surely foolish to discard what little ammunition we have and to hope that Brexit will turn events our way. Since the 2014 referendum, there has been virtually no nationwide campaign for independence, while the mass media has been carrying the unionist propaganda day-in, day-out. I do not believe that any such independence campaign will really start until we have a date for the vote, and I fear that today’s statement has dimmed the prospect for one.
@Glamaig
Brilliant, thanks, bookmarked and stored!
@Alan Crocket “. . . from having a referendum while the UK is still an EU member to not having one till after it has left”
No, it doesn’t. Try reading it again!
yesindyref2, see the pertinent lines in my comment at 5.35pm.
@Alan Crocket
No thanks, I read the SNP article, for instance:
“Nicola Sturgeon has reset the plan set out on 13 March. The Scottish Government will not introduce legislation for an independence referendum immediately. At the end of Brexit negotiations, the Scottish Government will set out its judgment on the best way forward – and on the precise timescale of the people of Scotland having a choice on our future. ”
link to snp.org
@yesindyref2
Some have no faith and find a friend in having a negative outlook about everything. Not a good attitude for a healthy life, still each to their own 🙂
One things for sure I won’t let anyone else’s negativity bother me, PHAARRRP!
Maybe this has already been said, but … Did anyone notice that NS told Scots to ‘take back control’!
Here’s the quote, from her speech:
‘So if Scotland is not simply to be at the mercy of events, but instead in control of our own future, then the ability to choose a different direction must be available.’
‘… in control of our own future …’
‘… the ability to choose a different direction must be available …’
Nice one!
Even Boris couldn’t disagree with that, could he? Surely not … Isn’t that what he kept going on and on about during his bombastically shallow Brexit campaign, in 2016?
The difference is that his ‘take back control’ stuff was fake, whereas Nicola’s is for real. His was empty rhetoric – the only person Boris thinks should have control is Boris. Hers was plain common sense, and genuine. NS is not all about NS; she is not even all about the SNP alone. To the contrary she seeks out what is genuinely good for Scotland and for Scots. It’s about them – that is, us – not her.
Well done, NS, and well-timed too. By delaying, and seeming to dither, she drew the enemy’s fire and left their guns spent. They emptied their cartridges, firing off in all directions, pouring out their dung – their puerile bile – all over the media, and everywhere around …
Then all NS had to do was stand up and ever-so-politely, ever-so-calmly and ever-so-reasonably make little statement, which demolished everything they had been shouting and screaming about with the tiniest of little shoves.
She didn’t wallop anyone – left all that bullying to them – but in another way she walloped the lot of them. With one wee well-timed swipe she sent them all home, to think again.
She even invited them to join her in getting what is best for Scots, and in letting the people of Scotland have the final say. And she even acknowledged that those Scots who disagreed with her, or with the SNP, had every right to do so. So clam, so polite, so reasonable, so clear …
Perfect …
Dead Simple on Nicola’s part … but, in its simplicity, pure dead Brilliant as well …
They had given the impression they had her on the run, and even that they had trapped her … They were all ready for the kill, and had wound up their public toi be there to gloat, when it happened … And then, it simply never happened. For what was really happening was that it was they who were walking straight into it, not her.
She dismantled them and all their broo-ha-ha in a one-er, without so much as raising her voice. She showed not one bit of hostility towards them, those ho had been hounding her for weeks. It’s not strength that wins the day, but technique, which tuns them over by using their own screaming and flexing of apparent muscle against them.
It took NS all of five short minutes to overturn all these braying lunatics today. Beautiful …
Yes Wull, she’s calm, intelligent and hasn’t budged an inch. Just as most of us knew beforehand. Not an angry bone in that woman’s body and if I may so, one cool headed cookie.
We should get some of Scotland’s talented and Yes supporting musicians and artists together and have Nicola come along as the honoured guest to raise funds for Scotref. Filmed by Phantom Power films and distributed by Ayemail. I’d buy that DVD,
Maybe somebody knows some of these artists and could field those in the know to see if something along these lines has merit? We have a wealth of talent in Scotland and who doesn’t like a good night oot wi those aims?
Basically ‘benefit gigs’ for the cause. (I’m almost certain the ‘cough’ broadccaters…would want a slice of that too, big names attract big audiences, but if a strong Yes grouping formed around such an undertaking, they could call the shots in terms of production values and advertising of such an event/s?)
Just an idea.
@K1
Good idea and I like good ideas. Keep them coming 🙂
@ Dr Jim, Northern Ireland isn’t a province it’s part of the ancient Irish province of Ulster.
Hearts and minds Alex, hearts and minds. While seeking continual improvement of the product range and the display of them.
@Wull
Yes, clear the decks ready for action, and hoist the mainsail taking full advantage of the fair trade winds.
All aboard that’s coming aboard!
@Fred
But still a province of not the United Kingdom but a deal with England then which was something like the point I was trying to make because of the two Kingdoms signatory thing
I’m not great on history so what I’m saying badly is how can Arlene Foster claim to defend a Union that Norn Ireland never signed up to and that came into being after the Sale of Union
(Act of Union) as some folk like to call it
My faith is well placed = )
@Wull 10:09pm
“…It took NS all of five short minutes to overturn all these braying lunatics today. Beautiful …”.
Not sure I agree with you Wull. What you say is true, but take a step back, and it’s quite plain to see Nicola is not winning the media battle.
A quote they attribute to Stalin says “quantity has a quality of its own”, and the sheer quantity of hostile Unionist bile is having a bearing on perceptions, even when the media gets it wrong. It doesn’t matter.
Even though this isn’t a U-turn, it will be remembered as a U-turn, and dredged up further down the line as “another” U-turn. The media creates its own narrative, repeats it, reinforces it, and in time the manufactured perception displaces the truth.
I think the SNP is heroicly stoic in its resilience to this caustic media, and should be thoroughly commended for that, but the media propaganda isn’t aimed at the SNP, but the inattentive masses of the electorate who are easier to influence.
No matter how many times Nicola out manoeuvres or wrong foots the media, the media just changes from one hostile perspective to a different but equally hostile perspective. Take yesterday, glee and derision that Nicola has done a U-turn which turns to a different form of derision that Nicola is flogging a dead horse nobody wants. Quite literally, Nicola is damned if she does, damned if she doesn’t.
We are left with a governing SNP which nobody can hear, and a discredited media which nobody wants to listen to. Against the backdrop of that lamentable state of affairs, how do we set about promoting the progressive and constructive IndyRef and pro-EU narratives?
The media cannot kill off Independence because it has genuine popular support, and objective substance in its arguments. But we need to be aware that while the propagandists cannot defeat our arguments, they are extremely efficient and successful in stitching up the agenda and keeping those progressive arguments out of everyday parlance and common awareness.
We desperately need an alternative form of broadcast media. I cannot stress that issue strongly enough.
I’m sorry, but it flatters Nicola and the SNP to say there is stalemate between their pro-Indy narrative which is not getting airplay and the media’s continual denigration of the pro-Indy narrative but continual failure to kill the idea off. It is a stalemate of sorts, but a stalemate which suits the media and BritNat “Establishment” because even their imperfect victory curtails and contains our aspirations for Independence. If they can keep it up indefinitely, it’s a result they will be content with.
It is vital, absolutely vital, that Scotland secures Free Scottish Broadcasting simply to get the objective and dispassionate case for Independence, and Independence in Europe, out there in the public conscience, properly set out and easy to follow, and not distorted and bent out of shape by the BBC and Daily Express type of horseshit.
It’s not just important. In my opinion, it is everything. We win or we lose.
Is the Northern Ireland “BUNG” the biggest in British history?
K1 10.30 27june says
We should get some of Scotland’s talented and Yes supporting musicians and artists together and have Nicola come along as the honoured guest to raise funds for Scotref. Filmed by Phantom Power films and distributed by Ayemail. I’d buy that DVD,
Maybe somebody knows some of these artists and could field those in the know to see if something along these lines has merit? We have a wealth of talent in Scotland and who doesn’t like a good night oot wi those aims?
Basically ‘benefit gigs’ for the cause. (I’m almost certain the ‘cough’ broadccaters…would want a slice of that too, big names attract big audiences, but if a strong Yes grouping formed around such an undertaking, they could call the shots in terms of production values and advertising of such an event/s?)
Excellent idea K1. Your post should be reposted and reposted. Spread the word far and wide if these artist can come along as they have done to rallies and did at the SECC for Nicola then I’m sure they would oblige once, twice or three times more no doubt.
An ALL DAY and EVENING EVENT. All big musicians from all of our nations.
Karine Pol, Eddie R, Dougie MacL, Gaelic community, etc etc.
Excellent article.
Less is more… more or less.
Yipee!
Ah hing, ah fuckin beauty.