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Wings Over Scotland

Celebrity endorsement

Posted on December 09, 2013 by

We don’t normally set a lot of store by them, but this one’s a peach:


Now, we should note that we can’t verify for certain whether this is real or not – if Palin did tweet it, she’s since deleted it, and we can’t find any other references to it. We did a quick bit of digging and it turned out to be a new addition to a funny piece that we tweeted about last week from a very well-done US spoof website called Hard Dawn (geddit?), so it seems pretty likely that they faked it.

We know the next tweet’s real, though, because we saw it with our own eyes:


Karen Keil is a Labour councillor in Edinburgh. The tweet she claims to be quoting from Yes Scotland had absolutely nothing to do with them. (It’s from here.) But despite her being corrected by the BBC’s Janice Forsyth early on Sunday morning, the tweet is still on Ms Keil’s account as we write this on Monday afternoon.

It’s one thing to have satirical sites making stuff up for a joke. But we probably shouldn’t have elected representatives doing it as a political smear. We look forward to Labour’s censure, Ms Keil’s apology and deletion of the tweet, and the media coverage, all of which we’re sure will be along any minute now.

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90 to “Celebrity endorsement”

  1. HandandShrimp says:

    To be fair I have never heard of Keil and may never hear of her again.
    The Palin tweet may be false but it would be hard to get a cigarette paper between Palin and Hard Dawn even though the latter is satire.

  2. Wayne says:

    We look forward to Labour’s censure, Ms Keil’s apology and deletion of the tweet, and the media coverage, all of which we’re sure will be along any minute now.
    I am led to believe that as we speak The Sun and the Daily Labour (Record) etc. are clearing their front pages for this story which will get full coverage tomorrow.  They are also allocating a corner of the front page to a lead article which will ridicule the latest scare story re supermarket prices, and add in a trenchant editorial admonishing the Scottish press for not upholding journalistic standards. 
    I should also add that whilst I finish off the last of my tomato soup from my late lunch I just saw a pink elephant floating over the rooftops of St Andrews on a magic carpet with a Better Together banner trailing behind…

  3. Cue McColm?
    Mibbes naw!

  4. Wayne says:

    Everyone on here should consider signing this petition, assuming you haven’t done so already!

  5. Les Wilson says:

    Over to our internet community !

  6. BillyBigbaws says:

    Johann Lamont must’ve been fuming when she saw Mandela getting all that praise for spreading the “virus” of African nationalism when he was leader of the African National Congress. Ghandi’s Indian nationalism would’ve wound her right up too.

  7. Jamie Arriere says:

    The fact that the tweeter even knows Scotland is in the UK suggests it’s not Palin – but does sound like something she’d say.
    Oh, White Paper has just arrived. Off to read for a few days.

  8. HandandShrimp says:

    Asian Flu?

  9. Andy-B says:

    Karen’s logic is on an uneven Keil    get it!
    O/T Rev I do apologise.
    Just listened to David Cameron, in the House of Commons laud Nelson Mandela, fo about 15 minutes, doesn’t the word hypocrisy mean anything anymore? 
    Cameron was quickly followed By Clegg, who also lauded Mr Mandela, it seems banding Mr Mandela’s name around is the in thing to to do, even if you’re firmly against his ethics and principles.

  10. Illy says:

    Oh no!  It’s a petition!  On the internet!  And it askes for your name and street address!  On the Internet!
    <sarcasm off>
    In all honesty, I’d trust Salmond and crew to know about the OSCE and be able to show cause rather easily for them to step in.
    That they haven’t yet means they likely have a plan.  Probably along the lines of “providing plenty of rope”  They’ve been planning this for years, I don’t think they’d have missed a move like that.  When they want fair coverage, they’ll get it.

  11. BeamMeUpScotty says:

    Palin’s ideas are closely alligned with the right wing people supporting the No campaign.

  12. Illy says:

    On Mandela:  Any choice quotes we could grab from Cameron’s 15 min ramble that would be relevent?
    We already have him on record saying that Scortland would be a “successful, independant nation”  Can we grab any others?

  13. Chic McGregor says:

    “The fact that the tweeter even knows Scotland is in the UK suggests it’s not Palin”
    Now, now!  She has said she can see Ross-shire from her porch. And Scotland is not in the UK, she knows coz her friend Dubya told her Gleneagles golf course is in Persia, which is part of Aye-Ran. She looked that up.

  14. Morag says:

    On Mandela, they’re all praising him to the skies, and rightly so even if they are a bunch of shameless hypocrites, but they ain’t showing this picture.

  15. Gillie says:

    As God voters both Palin and Keil share the same deep Christian belief that you must do unto others before the buggers do it to you first.

  16. Chic McGregor says:

    “Palin’s ideas are closely alligned with the right wing people supporting the No campaign.”
    Absolutely! How can any notions of Secession from England be countenanced by a group called ‘the Tea Party’?

  17. kalmar says:

     Chic McGregor says:
    Now, now!  She has said she can see Ross-shire from her porch.
    Hahahah!  Good work.

  18. Cath says:

    The trouble with US politics is the far right and tea party have long since Poe’s law’ed themselves. Things like FreeRepublic should be satire. The fact they’re not is scary. Sadly the far right here, and Better Together with them are headed the same route. It’s increasingly difficult to tell real from satire with them.

  19. Chic McGregor says:

    “On Mandela, they’re all praising him to the skies, and rightly so even if they are a bunch of shameless hypocrites,”
    This weekend the SPL honoured Nelson Mandela with a one minute applaud.
    How about next weekend they honour the political leader’s bandstanding with a one minute puke. 

  20. Jon D says:

    Clearly, Karen Keil doesn’t even take herself seriously. She is as empty as that horizon behind her. 

  21. Gillie says:

    1 Timothy 2:11-15           
    “Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor”

  22. Morag says:

    St. Paul had a problem with women.  We know.

  23. Conan_the_Librarian says:

    I’ve just been struck by the difference between the funerals of Mandela and Thatcher.
    Both had parties organised, but her’s were to celebrate her death, and his his life…

  24. john king says:

    Wayne says
    “I should also add that whilst I finish off the last of my tomato soup from my late lunch I just saw a pink elephant floating over the rooftops of St Andrews on a magic carpet with a Better Together banner trailing behind…”
    Never mind all that how was the soup?

  25. Bunter says:

    Supermarket scare now on The Herald. Wish we could use social media to turn the scare back on them lol…..

  26. Papadocx says:

    We have a lot of dubious personalities of our own, don’t need to import any. You only have to look at the SLAB personalities. Now they know how to work a crowd and bamboozle their supporters, big time! Their supporters know their the party of the working class, cause their grand parents told them all about the general strike.
    unlike their voters, SLAB has kept up with the times (financial that is). They dropped all the socialist crap 50 years ago along with conviction politics and through their hand in with the capitalist professional carpet baggers. We just need the ordinary citizens to wake up and realise they are being used.

  27. Beastie says:

    Ah, it’s all fun, isn’t it? On the subject of Palin and Ross-shire, I remember reading years ago in the Daily Record about a guy from the real Ross-shire… ie, not the same as Palin’s one… getting to immigration at JFK where, I understand, they are notorious for negative sense of humour, and on presenting his UK passport and being asked where he was from he said….

    And with that he was nicked and chucked back on the first available flight to the UK…. because the dim humourless eejits at JFK did actually think he’d said Russia.
    Of course, the dingbat in question is wholly to blame as well, because when immigration anywhere ask where you come from you don’t respond with a geographical location in your home country… because that’ll just confuse them, and confused immigration officials tend not to be a good thing for your holiday.

  28. ronnie anderson says:

    Sky news, 10min ago interview on the same subject supermarkets foods, costs to scotland would be higher due to transport costs people in england would nt except paying higher costs due to Independence should be repeated on SKY NEWS and again women do the shopping so its to scare the undecided women voter

  29. theycan'tbeserious says:

    Would God or Jesus abandon Scotland after Independence…..would they vote for the “tax men” and austerity, and the punishment of the poor and sick? Would they agree with tax breaks for the super rich whereby increasing the burden on the poor? Would they believe we were better together under the rule of a foreign empire? Would they support oppression and poverty when there was an alternative? Would they vote No?
    FFS Scotland if a Yes vote is the favoured choice of the “the big man and his laddie” then why would you have any doubt its the right choice. Have faith Vote YES!

  30. Holebender says:

    Wayne, it has been posted several time on here that the OSCE have stated that they will only act at the request of a member government, i.e. the UK, not Scotland. That petition is a waste of time and I’m tired of wasting my time telling people it’s a waste of time.
    Don’t you think the Scottish Government would have approached them by now if it was possible?

  31. Holebender says:

    theycan’tbeserious, is that an example of God wins Law?
    I’ll get my coat…

  32. Gillie says:

    The food price scare is an English thing, we shouldn’t get involved.

  33. Boorach says:

    Just reported SG to break pay link with Westminster and not accept 11% pay rise.
    In future MSP’s pay will be linked to average of civil servants

  34. Boorach says:

    Just reported on drivetime SG to break pay link with Westminster and not accept 11% pay rise.
    In future MSP’s pay will be linked to average of civil servants

  35. theycan'tbeserious says:

    MP’s vote themselves 11% pay rise…..better together?

  36. annie says:

    IDS getting grilled by HoC committee re his use of statistics and universal credit – BBC news channel.

  37. desimond says:

    Scots MPs get 87.5% of the wages of MPs…and we also have MPs too…how much does it cost to govern us for Gods sake…no wonder we’re such a drain on the otherwise healthy UK economy.

  38. desimond says:

    Scots MPs get 87.5% of the wages of MPs…and we also have MPs too…how much does it cost to govern us for Gods sake…no wonder we’re such a drain on the otherwise healthy UK economy.

    Vote YES and save the United Kingdom some cash!

  39. Davy says:

    Well it can’t be Palin because Palin wouldn’t know where Europe is? let alone Scotland, as for Karen Keil that is a perfect example of labour humour, ha ha he he,
    followed by a perfect example of Snp sarcasm. 

  40. Jingly Jangly says:

    o/t Wings on slowdown again over 4 minutes to load the page!!!!!

  41. Craig M says:

    I think that may have been borrowed from a tale from around WW1 when there was a flap in London. There was a Russian spy scare because several big guys with beards and funny accents were asked where they were from at a London rail station. The bearded guys (who were actually soldiers) replied “Ross-Shire”, cue John Buchanesque panic.  

  42. Murray McCallum says:

    A cerebrality endorsement for the union from Sarah Palin. Who’d have thunk.

  43. Papadocx says:

    When you see all the bogey men stories HMG spread via their friends in big business, MSG and  SKY/BBC etc then they obviously think we are very Thick, GULLIBLE and stupid. 
    They really treat us like idiots and half wits and think we need them to look after us, how nasty and condescending. 
    If they are trying to turn me against the Great British ESTABLISHMENT then they are succeeding big time. IS THIS WHAT THEY WANT?

  44. JLT says:

    Wee debate in the section. One person says that the OO and Masonic Lodge will never back Independence. One person saying that that amounts to 1.2 million Scots. I questioned that stat by saying bringing in religion (which is the worst thing that can happen, and appallingly wrong) would abhor the rest of Scotland straight away, and would cancel out the OO and Lodge outright.
    After toing and froing, I questioned the stats on that, on the basis that there are more people in my section NOT in either, so where do the 1.2 million come from.
    However, I’m curious. A question then …I’m not in the Lodge (and no …I’m definitely NOT in the OO), but ignoring the OO, how many folk do you know, who may be in the Lodge, but are voting ‘Yes’. I’m not asking folk to reveal their membership. Far from it. The argument from one of my colleagues is, ‘that the Lodge will tell its members to vote ‘No’. 
    I have strong doubts that some Lodge members will vote ‘No’ even though they may be deep Nationalists at heart. Is there any Yes members or Nationalsist in the Lodge. You don’t have to say yes you are, but can state that ‘you know someone who is, and yes, they are voting yes!’
    The question is …does anyone know the Lodge’s take on the referendum!
    Apologies for the daft question …but this kind of got me wondering.

  45. Brian Mark says:

    Who the hell is Keil? Is it another one who has started climbing the greasy poll which leads to being an MSP and then the jackpot of a free ticket to a seat in the house of corruption.

  46. Iain says:

    Karen Keil’s degree was apparently a BD – so far, so academically unimpressive – and she is married to a minister.

    The loss of my youthful faith was helped in no small way by the public attachment of too many ministers to the Labour Party. It seemed to me that not only was the parading of their party political preference incompatible with their vocation, but that their preference for a party so corrupt, dishonest, self-serving and unscrupulous was utterly at odds with Christian principles.  

  47. ronnie anderson says:

    JTL,Dont believe every thing you hear regarding the Orange Order, Masonic Lodge, As a past Seretary of a Lodge/Registar ( Black Inst ) not every orangeman/woman take any notice & I have seen some idiots elected to those higher positions as the kleque elect them,mant have in the past to vote for orangemen in local elections I know 4 over the years who

  48. ronnie anderson says:

    should have walked it but did nt get the orange voters

  49. Jingly Jangly says:

    o/t and stop press
    STV Poll just announced Ipsos Mori
    YES 34 +3
    No 57 -2
    DK 10

  50. HandandShrimp says:

    Oh I was Ipsos Mori’s the other week there. They asked a fair few questions. There was a bit on Devo Max and what effect it would have if there was an offer on the table. Wonder if it was the same poll. Plus all the usual stuff about leaders doing a good job.

  51. Thistle says:


    Business for Scotland videos for “The Economic Case for Independence” from The Glad Cafe on the 26th November are now available:

  52. gordoz says:

    As someone with American connections laughable stuff from a complete idiot such as Palin who have tarnished the good name and historic exploits of the ‘famous Tea Party’ ie ‘Brits get tae fxck’ and take yer taxes way ye!
    America’s full of contradictions such as this loony.
    Typical freedom for all Yay !! (just not for guys ;  cause you might go socialist which equals communism )
    The ‘minute men’ would be so proud Sarah …  (stay out of things you have no knowledge of woman)
    And mind me to cancel my STV license as well; leave the poll pish for Britain to the BBC guys. 57 % for No Seriously ? – yez are at it. Personally I still think its nearer 50/50 and has been for some time.

  53. HandandShrimp says:

    If it was the poll I did it was actually heavy going and I didn’t think all that flexible. I felt funnelled a couple of times to the point of saying Don’t Know to a couple of the questions.

  54. Thepnr says:

    I’ve just conducted a poll of three.
    Yes 100%
    No 0%
    Don’t know 0%
    Analyse that Professor Curtice.

  55. TheGreatBaldo says:

    On the Ipsos Mori Poll… are the data tables.

    A quick question for the more informed on these things……
    On Page 2 of the Data Tables it states ‘Party support’… that how they remember voting in 2011 (or 2010) or how they would vote in 2016 ?
    If it’s the latter it’s showing the weighted Constituency Vote as follows…….
    Labour : 35.7%
    SNP : 35 %
    Tories : 15%
    Lib Dems : 8%
    Others : 6.3%
    Confused cos those figures with the exception of the Lib Dem vote are nowhere near the constituency results in 2011…indeed the SNP has slumped by 10 points  ?
    And if it’s on voting intention for 2016, then there has been a huge Labour surge/SNP collapse compared to last 2016 intentions poll that I saw….which as I recall had the SNP in the mid 40’s ????

  56. Tearlach says:

    @JLT – re the Lodge and a Yes vote. Well I’m not a member, but my neighbour, with whom I’m pretty close, is a staunch member of the local lodge, very open with it, and a very vocal Yes advocate. Knowing a lot of my community who are the local branch, I’d be surprised if their membership was a issue on a Yes/No platform.
    Mind you I’m talking about the North Highlands here, maybe not a good metaphor for West Central Scotland.

  57. gordoz says:

    Its as if the establishment are creating a poll outcome of norms. Strange as I said in all my life  (32yrs + as an adult) I have enver been approached to complete a political (or otherwise) poll as such why would one trust such information.
    I have also never noticed polls of such a static nature in all that time as different papaers need to sell their message so have in the past highlited various swings of the political spectrum. All the papers are united for Unionism, so seems to be  in their interest to keep banging out a mantra for No side of strange hardly changing % pts rather than presenting other secenarios such as un-doctored facts.
    I know this sounds cynical but does no one else find this ‘static’ constant of support for No in terms of fixed percentage ahead suspicious or strange since their campaign has from the start said sweet fuxk all except contradiction and smear of fear ?
    Is this within normal political expectations – Im no mathematician but no swings at all since start. White  Paper  release – nothing. It just seems odd and very suspicious – even when no have abad period – nothing ?
    I really do smell a rat with all these variuos polls and no significant movement of any kind swings / temporary or otherwise.

  58. HandandShrimp says:

    Curious with the Ipsos poll. I see that although 62% describe themselves as Scottish only in the census, in the Ipsos poll it is only about 25% rising to about 48% (ish I haven’t done the exact sums) if you include More Scottish than British. About 20% of their sample were not from Scotland.
    I guess they fired off random phone calls but is that a representative cross section?

  59. TheGreatBaldo says:

    Im no mathematician but no swings at all since start. White  Paper  release – nothing.
    Interestingly Gordoz if you go to the Table on the effect of the White Paper, it asks ‘based on what you have read seen or heard’….
    Given the media hostility and overwhelmingly negative commentry (particularily on TV) the results are hardly suprising.
    More interesting would be to actually poll those who had read the White Paper….rather than what their opinions on what they’ve been told about the White Paper by the media.
    With the White Papers just being delivered to homes in the next few days….I suspect those YES figures will improve once folk actually read it 

  60. gordoz says:

    Im affraid Im becoming more and more sceptical that we will not get a fair crack of the whip during the vote. The manipulation is becoming more & more evident. Even at this stage I would prefer some form of genuine outside UN or otherwise coverage to ensure validity of the poll.
    I honestly never thought I would utter such words in my own country.
    I know it sounds so out there but…

  61. john king says:

    For pitys sake wont someone think about the Alaskan kids pleeease think of the kids! 🙁 

  62. Jeannie says:

    Just got my copy of Scotland’s Future today.  Very impressed with the layout.  It’ll take a while to work my way through it though.

  63. john king says:

    I wonder if we vote for independence the cold callers will boycott us in protest, 
    I promise you vote for indie and you’ll never hear from us again,
    oh please we were only joking, I sit waiting for your call trying to sell me ppi, you see I’m so lonely yours is the only (nearly ) human voice I get to speak to , please don’t stop,
    that’s about how much credence I give those bloody supermarkets, here a thought, just you bloody try it Morrisons, you’ll be run out of town on a rail tarred and feathered as quick as a blink! 

  64. TheGreatBaldo says:

    Och cheer up gordoz……
    Remember how the Rangers Tax Case turned out…..biased media first embarrassed and then defied by a public that saw thru the crap ?
    Remember the polls telling us to prepare for First Minister Gray in 2011 ?
    Remember Nicola’s demolition of Carmichael-Moore….then imagine the response when with the entire nation watching as Eck does the same to Cameron and/or Darling right before the vote…..
    Observe the Tories narrowing the gap on Labour at Westminister…..and the impact we know that has on the Referendum polls….that Labour NO vote collapses and with it the Unionist vote
    Imagine that effects of a UKIP victory in the Euro election and the pro YES swing in Scottish opinion it will bring…..
    Imagine the boost to the national self confidence a few weeks before the vote of a successful Commonwealth Games…..and more importantly it’s effect on the crucial voters in Glasgow ?
    Given their hysterical response in the last few weeks……Better Together have seen and imagined those things as well, which is why they are assembling a circular firing squad despite having a 20+ point lead in some polls…..and remember come September they will be at each other throat as they position themselves for the General Election.
    This ain’t over yet my man !!!

  65. caz-m says:

    Just saw those poll results from STV. What a f….. joke man. I emailed them right away and told where they could ram their biased unionist poll.

    STV Complaints :-

  66. john king says:

    Thepnr says
    “I’ve just conducted a poll of three.”
    Why is it every time I look at your avatar I want to sit up straight clap my hair down flat and stuff a thick magazine down the back of my dungarees?

  67. caz-m says:

    How do the Scottish public poll one week and it’s a 9% lead to the NO vote. (Which I thought was garbage).

    Then the next week stv do a poll and they come up with a 23% lead to the NO vote. I mean, come on. And they even have the majority of Don’t Knows turning to a NO vote.

    Who did they poll? I think it was members of the Scottish Labour Party.

    I did notice Better Together all over it as well.

    Utter Bullshit.

  68. Papadocx says:

    As I have said persistently & consistently. This is not a school exercise this is a threat to the state. The state will and does use every trick in the book to protect itself, NO HOLDS BARRED! If you don’t understand or believe that then you need to waken up. This is the real shit. 
    Re polls MSM, BBC, STV etc. they are controlled by the state.
    There are lies, damn lies, and statistics all CONTROLLED BY THE STATE + PROPAGANDA.

  69. scottish_skier says:

    The MORI poll for STV is wrong. It’s down to them using outdated telephone polling + some shy factor. They get an older, more traditional and ‘British’ demographic.
    They ask the Moreno identity question. It is badly out – skewed towards British – compared to the Scottish Social Attitudes survey and the census. See below.
    Correct for that and it looks more like Panelbase. Who incidentally, asked a national identity question and were bang on the census. Solid base.
    STV can waste money if they want.
    Trend is Yes up and No down with MORI. Otherwise, ignore.
    SSAS 2000-2012 (MORI, with deviation from reality)
    Scottish not British = 29% (22%, -7)
    More Scottish than British = 33% (25%, -8)
    Total SSAS more Scottish / primarily Scottish = 62%
    2011 Census ‘Scottish Only’ = 62%
    MORI equivalent = 47%, -15
    Equally Scottish and British = 25% (34%, +9)
    More British than Scottish = 5% (7%, +3)
    British not Scottish = 4% (8%, +4)

  70. handclapping says:

    @The Great Baldo
    It looks like 2011 recall / political identity in which case they don’t have a representative sample.
    The factoid I like is that more than 50% state the Government White Paper will do nothing to change their minds! Shades of John Maynard Keynes “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?”

  71. stonefree says:

    It would seem strange that Lodges who celebrate and revere Robert Burns who was a Freemason and a Nationalist , would be against.
    But there is always the question, of why Conservative clubs have Burns Nights?
    and I assume the OO objection is to do with the Flag and Queen
    and on the other side John Reid takes a peerage yet very pro United Ireland, yet anti Scottish Independence

  72. caz-m says:


    Brilliant breakdown of the polls and a lot more balanced view.

    I do wish there was a way of getting your findings out to a wider public.

    As you say, the positive is that the Yes vote is on the rise and the No vote is passing us going the other way.

  73. Thepnr says:

    @john king
    Like your new avatar, what’s your problem with mine? It’s a Shipwright, I served my time as a Shipwright. Couldn’t get a boiler suit to fit me as I was too wee!!! Probably too poor and stupid as well so I got dungarees.
    No big deal.

  74. caz-m says:


    The myth that Masons and Rangers supporters are all blue blooded unionists is just that.

    You are falling into the same category as most English people that think they subsidise Scotland. Now you don’t accept that theory do you.

    So if you can put the two theories together and class them as bullshit. The Rangers and Masons stories are nonsense.

    Just as mentioned above, John Reid is a bitter unionist, yet he is neither a Mason nor a Rangers supporter.

    The Masons are not getting any instructions on how to vote in the referendum. They are free thinking individuals.

  75. Thepnr says:

    My cousin is a diehard Rangers supporter, I’m talking about pictures of King Billy on his bedroom wall when he was a wean. I was bestman at a wedding last year, your real on lodge man that wears rings and all sorts.
    Both will be voting Yes so it is all bullshit, all of us will have to decide for ourselves come September, let’s not put anyone in a box. 

  76. stonefree says:

    I didn’t think that Reid was either , I made the comment in that he was a two-faced balloon who love the union for the ermine

  77. the journeyman says:

    I think what we seen tonight was a desperate attempt to give some weight to this dodgy poll and I doubt we will see these “presenters of polls” on our screens too often. BT are making classic mistake of thinking if they say something enough then it must be true.

    Any serious YES campaigner knows what’s going on at grass roots, there is only one direction of travel, like reek up a lum, people can only go in one direction when they get the facts. We must continue the good fight, and ask only one question, what more can I do to make sure everyone gets all the information. STV, BBC et al don’t serve the people just don’t worry and don’t forget.

  78. JLT says:

    Ronnie / Tearlach
    Cheers for the info, guys, and apologies that I am only getting back now. Was working till 10pm last night (bit shattered this morning).
    As said, we had a debate, and one of the guys (a Lodge member) said that there were 1.2 million combined of the Lodge and the OO in Scotland. I doubted that stat, on the basis, that when put to the Section, he was the only one in the room in either organisation (out of 8 folk at that time).
    But it made me wonder. What is the Lodge’s view. After all, according to the one of their aims on the Grand Lodge of Scotland website (Freemasons strive for truth, requiring high moral standards and aiming to achieve them in their own lives. Freemasons believe that these principles represent a way of achieving higher standards in life). 
    Now …just going with that …I would have thought that the Lodge would be open to the very idea of the concepts of a better life in an indy-Scotland. It fits their aims completely! Truth, moral standards …hello!!
    The question to me then is this …does the Lodge follow its principles, or will it follow the path that most people think, and that is, that it is full of members who are also OO followers.
    It seems a conflict of interest in my view!

  79. Ken500 says:

    Lodges are very small group

    The figures from historical Protestant associated is 1.2million Catholic 800,000. – 2million. Possibly half practising.1million Less voters ie take out the children. Only 50% of electorate vote = -1/2million (of religion vote) Total electorate 4million. They vote for all Parties. Many must have voted SNP as a percentage of the landslide. The divisions are mainly in the Central belt which give a distorted view for those who live there. The SNP/Independence support gets stronger further North. They see the meters turning etc and know the monies when south etc. The further south the stronger the Unionism. A Borders Tory MP.

    The Churches are losing support because they do not practise what they preach. eg a Minister’s
    wife, allegedlly, suggesting anyone should got to jail for 27 years for their beliefs. Very strange.

  80. Ken500 says:

    Freemasons are a secret society – democratic? Non representative based on religious grounds. Not anyone can join. Women only affiliated. They have the Royal family as Head of State, swear a oath of allegiance? The Award of the Garter, one of the highest awards of the Crown/State – Freemasons? It is a secret society. No one is supposed to know who are members, this can lead to corruption. Favouritism

  81. Holebender says:

    1.2 Million? Is your friend seriously suggesting that just about every adult male in Scotland is a member of one or the other and nobody is a member of both? I doubt if they could muster 100,000 between them.

  82. dave robb says:

    Freemasons are required to have a belief in a supreme being – not necessarily the Christian God. Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus can all become freemasons – though their religious leaders may be unhappy with that. They should not express ANY political view as Freemasons, and are free to hold any political views as INDIVIDUALS. 

    As they are required to accept the peronal faith of other religions equally, membership of the Orange Order should be incompatible. There can be no opinion expressed by the Grand Lodge of Scotland on the merits or otherwise of Scottish independence. I would be astonished to find the majority of Scottish males were Freemasons, far less Orangemen.

  83. Ken Johnston says:

    Just a thought, how do you think Mr. Mandela would have voted?

  84. Beastie says:

    Good to see a nice range of rebuttal to the ‘Orange/Rangers/ English all going to vote no’ nonsense.

    I know people from all of those categories who are planning to vote yes. I know people from at least two of those categories actively campaigning for independence.

    I know little about the freemasons, except that those people I used to know, part of my Dad’s generation, who were part of the order were primarily involved in getting together for meetings which basically revolved around drinking, smoking, and having a laugh with the lads. More a men only club than anything else. I don’t believe for one second they give a organisation wide opinion one way or the other on independence. They never struck me as that organised.

    On Mr Mandela… since he was vocally for the self determination and rights of people, my guess is he would support it. And, of course, he was a big fan of Glasgow. I wonder what happened to the fire in the council, that saw them name where the South African Consulate sat Nelson Mandela Place, to turn them into the limp, pathetic, self serving bunch we’ve got now?

  85. Lochside says:

    During’ the 12th’ marches in the West of Scotland, it’s around 50,000 marching with 2-3 times that amount watching. So say 200,000 Orange Lodge adherents. If they vote as a block that is significant, but not very likely.

    More of concern to me is significant elements the Old Firm vote. I know they are ‘only’ football teams, but when you look at the ramping up behind the scenes of the political dimension in their mutual loathing, it looks far more sinister than usual. Because they are reactionary organisations thirled to an outdated British divide and rule model, they threaten the civil nature of the debate. Their mutually supporting  fear and lucrative loathing of al things ‘Scottish’, impels their more extreme leading cohorts of reaction to manifest  outpourings of confused violent rage and angst at  the growing strength of Scottish political development and maturity by  the ‘Yes’ movement. 

    Like dumb uncomprehending mobs of luddites the Blue and Green Brigade unite in a grotesque Bitter Together of bigoted and violent outrage at the SG and  Scottish Self-Determination.  Who is behind the 50 feet banners at Parkhead? Why is Police Scotland failing to arrest GB criminals breaking up stadia and throwing flares? Why did the same Police Force refuse to arrest Servicemen colluding in singing and dancing to Sectarian songs at  Ibrox during ‘Forces Day’ at Ibrox?  Unless thes politically motivated groups within the Old Firm body politic are isolated and dealt with, under the law of the land, the debate about the Referendum will remain clouded by these agents and puppets of British divide and rule tactics.

  86. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Why did the same Police Force refuse to arrest Servicemen colluding in singing and dancing to Sectarian songs at Ibrox during ‘Forces Day’ at Ibrox?”

    Can you IMAGINE how that would have played out?

  87. desimond says:

    Its all crazily mixed up…I mean how many Lords sit in the Celtic boardroom on match day sipping finest brandy these days..theres even a brand new Tory one brazen enough to take the name Lord Parkhead!…but at the end of the day its all one common theme….the Established Order…..all these Organisations, from Church to Celtic, from Rangers to Orange Order, from Freemasons to MPs\Lords\Ladies, they all fear change.

    They are terrified of Independence.
    They fear people thinking for themselves.
    They fear their time is up.

  88. JLT says:

    Cheers guys for basically confirming what I thought (i’ve been busy all day in teh van, and I’m working till 10 again tonight …groan!).
    But, no seriously, that was my argument to my colleague who stressed that 1.2 million people from the Lodge to the OO, will all vote ‘No’. The OO I could understand, but the Lodge …well, that was a different beast altogether.
    Personally, it’s absolutely murder dealing with folk from Edinburgh. Once again, in another wee mimni debate, it was stressed to me again, that all these Financial Institutes will all leave Edinburgh in the event of a ‘Yes’ vote (without thinking through that it will probably cost these companies at least 500 mil to a billion pounds just to pay the current staff off, relocate to London and into more expensive property, hire new staff on 4 times the wages, get all their kit installed, etc, and pray that the share price doesn’t collapse, when Scots in their anger, cancel all their policies or pull their money out of the bank accounts! It’s just nuts!
    So, thanks again anyway guys. Great to hear different views on that little subject!

  89. Jeannie says:

    Don’t know if it’s any help, but my mother has some knowledge of Masonic matters in Scotland.  She said that in her own father’s time (pre 1954), the Masonic Lodge took nothing to do with the Orange Order – they did not agree with their outlook and disapproved of their behaviour.  They were clearly two completely separate organisations.  My own father was a mason – he was also Catholic.  My mother thinks it’s still much the same today and that members of the Masonic Lodge would not wish to be associated in any way with the Orange Order.  Their beliefs and outlook are completely different.

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