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Burn Before Reading

Posted on October 06, 2020 by

There’s an especially interesting post on the blog of Scottish solicitor-advocate Gordon Dangerfield at the moment, pointing out that there are no legal reasons whatever for the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service (COPFS) to be withholding documents relating to the allegations against Alex Salmond, and indeed issuing dire threats of prosecution against him or anyone who might put them into the public domain.

(All of the blog’s coverage of the inquiry in general has been expert and revealing, and should be the first stop for readers seeking to understand proceedings.)

The items in question include the infamous WhatsApp messages exchanged by the group of people attempting to have Salmond imprisoned for crimes he didn’t commit, among them SNP chief executive Peter Murrell.

When two of Murrell’s messages were leaked recently it was front-page news in the Scottish press, and generated a huge amount of subsequent coverage. Commentators as diverse as Mandy Rhodes of Holyrood magazine and Alex Massie of the Times and Spectator have noted that while they’d initially disbelieved talk of a conspiracy, the Scottish Government’s actions have given them the opposite impression.

The message log is absolutely central to Salmond’s claim of a conspiracy against him, so the last thing that either COPFS or the leadership of the SNP wants is for it to become public knowledge. Indeed, COPFS has denied that the messages exist at all, which makes it a bit weird that the police are currently conducting a serious criminal investigation into who leaked some apparently entirely imaginary documents.

So it would be quite astonishing if they suddenly disappeared, wouldn’t it?

Yet it was that very prospect that Labour MSP Jackie Baillie raised (via a rather dodgy internet connection) in a little-reported exchange which happened at the very end of last week’s turbulent FMQs. And she had good reason to.

The key question in Baillie’s intervention was this:

“Will the First Minister authorise the release of all the material to the committee, as previously promised, and ensure that no documents held by the Scottish Government, the Crown Office or the SNP are destroyed before the committee finishes its inquiry?

As you can see from the video, Nicola Sturgeon conspicuously and rather irritably failed to give any sort of answer to that part of Baillie’s request, let alone an assurance. And there are particular reasons why that’s alarming.

Scottish law requires that in any trial involving crimes of a sexual nature, no evidence can be destroyed for a minimum of 10 years. (We can’t find a link for this but have confirmed it with two very senior legal sources.)

Alex Salmond wanted to use the messages as part of his defence, but the trial judge ruled them inadmissible and they were not entered into court. This means they’re NOT protected by the 10-year rule, and COPFS can destroy them at any time it wishes – however blatantly crooked that would look – and can also order Mr Salmond’s lawyers to destroy their copies (which we must presume also don’t exist, even though COPFS has publicly threatened him with prosecution if he discloses them).

The only thing preventing them from doing so at the moment is that they’ve also been requested by Craig Murray for the defence in his trial for contempt of court, and no documents which are currently the subject of a live case can be destroyed.

If that permission were to be again refused (the prosecution is currently objecting to their inclusion, as indeed it is to ALL of Murray’s defence evidence and witnesses) – or after the trial is over, or if the charges against him should unexpectedly be dropped for any reason – then COPFS will be free to bung the whole lot on the fire.

And if our own dealings with them over the last few months are any sort of a guide, it’s something they won’t hesitate to do given half a chance. If the inquiry committee are going to use the law to force Mr Murrell to hand the messages over, as they’ve apparently been advised they can, we’d suggest they do so very quickly.

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  1. 06 10 20 08:57

    Burn Before Reading | speymouth

346 to “Burn Before Reading”

  1. Breeks says:

    Seems the Daily Record has substantiated the texts are real, with an apparent admission from Murrell….

    Is this a Newspaper being creative with the truth, or being free to act on evidence and information when access and consent to use that evidence is being denied to the party which requires that evidence for it’s defence?

    The COPFS is making itself look ridiculous, and worse, perhaps implicated in the wider conspiracy.

  2. WhoRattledYourCage says:

    This whole tragic Machiavellian fiasco, in a wider sense, reminds me of an old poem by Falkirk poet Joe Corrie, who died in 1969, entitled Rebel Tam:

    ‘When Rebel Tam was in the pit
    He tholed the very pangs o’ Hell
    In fectin’ for the Richts o’ Man,
    And ga’e nae thoucht unto himsel’.

    ‘If I was just in Parliament,
    By God!’ he vowed,’They soon would hear
    The trumpet-ca’ o’ Revolution
    Blastin’ in their ear!’

    Noo he is there, back-bencher Tam,
    And listens daily to the farce
    O’ Tweeledum and Twedledee,
    And never rises off his arse.’

    The more things change, indeed.

  3. Astonished says:

    Murrell must go . How to achieve this ?

    Asking for a once honourable party.

  4. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Seems the Daily Record has substantiated the texts are real, with an apparent admission from Murrell….”

    Very weird story, noticeably failing to include any sort of quote.

  5. Breeks says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    6 October, 2020 at 8:53 am

    Very weird story, noticeably failing to include any sort of quote.

    I thought that too… It doesn’t say who Murrell admitted it to, but still went to print. What conclusions can you draw from that?

    I would assume however that the COPFS will very soon be having words with the Daily Record, otherwise the position they’ve adopted with Alex Salmond is surely untenable.

  6. Breeks says:

    Maybe Phantom Power need to do a Michael Moore Fahrenheit 9/11 investigation into all for this…. from start to finish.

    Maybe even ask Michael Moore if he’s busy… and free to publish whatever he likes in America.

  7. P says:

    And now we’ve got the National reporting on the Record reporting of the story

  8. WhoRattledYourCage says:

    Michael Moore is a not-entirely-reliable propagandist. Abby Martin of The Empire Files might make a decent job of it, or John Pilger.

  9. Sharny Dubs says:

    No wonder AS was so insistent that there is more to come.

    Hell mend them

  10. Sharny Dubs says:

    WhoRattledYourCage @9:25

    I’ll second that

  11. Sharny Dubs says:

    Sorry @9:25


  12. Tannadice Boy says:

    Another excellent article Stu. You make it easy for readers like myself that have no legal knowledge to understand what’s going on.
    I wonder if are we getting close to a vote of No Confidence in the SG?. Surely the Greens won’t prop up this nonsense.

  13. Bob Mack says:

    Hollywood Mandy talked about a seed of doubt ‘re a plot against Alex. My seed has grown into a bloody great tree in full bloom, and I yet marvel at the ability of others in the SNP to ignore all this evidence as being tainted.

    I understAnd loyalty. I even admire it.

    Loyalty however has limits. Here we are fighting for freedom, whilst those leading are fighting to hide the fact that they plotted to deprive another innocent man of his freddom.

    You cannot underestimate the callousness of that fact.

    As for the prosecution sdrvice, they are trying to bury a monumental error having already screwed up royaly at enormous cost, over the Rangers case. Another half million .

    Self protection is the name of this game at whatever cost to others.

  14. Martin says:

    So it has come to this… Jackie Baillie is our guardian of truth, transparency and decency. The unexpected sight of her acting diligently to try and prevent what is (to many) an unthinkable act is almost enough to cause an existential crisis.

  15. A Person says:

    I agree with Breeks. There needs to be a full-length documentary made about this.

  16. Kenny says:

    That Record article; while they’re tempting a readership with smouldering facts of a now emerging monumental cover-up, there’s clearly a great deal of deliberation over choice of wording and terminology. However, their loose sensationalist tone aside, I still think the Record’s steering the editorial in a direction that niggles, they still can’t resist the urge to be less than magnanimous on Salmond.
    When are editorials going to start using terms describing a wholly wronged member of the public? when will they admit their disgraceful and lurid style was a thousand miles from accurate?
    Isn’t it time certain ‘journalists’ took a good look at themselves, maybe do the right thing, whatever that right thing may be?

    Journalists doing the right thing; Garavelli is doing just that, announcing she’s ‘bowing out’ – that’s a good career move – and timely.
    Like to know how bowing out with grace looks? You won’t find it here:

    ..there was the row over the alleged failure of the Scottish Government to hand over documents to the Salmond inquiry ~ The furore over the production of documents was either indicative of a rot at the heart of the SNP or a tawdry distraction from more important matters ~ It’s increasingly difficult to hold the position that the party is as potentially competent and as potentially fallible as any other. Or to suggest the Salmond inquiry will neither clear or indict the Scottish Government, but uncover a hotchpotch of misjudgments (sic) – good intentions, badly applied – against the febrile backdrop of #MeToo. Praising one policy, while criticising another messes with people’s heads. Everything has to be cut and dried, them or us, cock-up or conspiracy..

    I’d describe that as ‘all over the shop’. Yes, a good time to bow out – before some misjudgements come back and bite her on her arse.

  17. Cuilean says:

    Alex Salmond should do the country a favour and his party by just publishing all his papers and be damned.

    COPFS cannot be unaccountable and both they and Police Scotland cannot be above the law, they purport to administer and uphold.

  18. Thomas says:

    Pass that popcorn this is getting very interesting.

  19. kapelmeister says:

    Alex Neil is being proved right when he said there should be a judge-led public inquiry.

  20. J Galt says:

    A Person@10.21

    Just not by Michael Moore though!

  21. SOG says:

    From the Mandy Rhodes article linked to above…

    “whether I thought it was right that as a woman, she was being put under pressure to sack her husband as chief executive of the SNP simply because she had been promoted to party leader.”

    … Surely he should have found another job, in a reasonable time?

  22. PeakMullett says:

    Now that some of the content has been revealed could Craig Murray or Alex Salmond sue based on the content of the messages? Then, again, they’d be protected; and finally revealed.

  23. Fireproofjim says:

    Surely WhatsApp messages, once sent, can not really be destroyed and are always “out there” for those with the skills to retrieve them.
    Admittedly I know nothing about such processes but that’s my understanding.

  24. Hatuey says:

    For clarification, was the quote by Lindsey Miller above delivered before or after the WhatsApp revelation in the Daily Record? My poor recollection is that it was before.

    Don’t suppose it matters.

    The whole thing reminds me of the Kennedy thing and subsequent Warren Commission. I mean structurally. I guess things like this are bound to have similarities, planning, implementation, clean-up, etc.

    Our leader came through it, though, and that’s important. That changes everything. He lived to tell the tale.

    This SNP though, when you think about it, are more established in Scotland than any previous establishment. No challenge to them exists in politics. Nobody, even before devolution, was ever so secure.

    Where does that leave you if you’re a high or middle ranking civil servant? I feel quite sorry for them. Get on the wrong side of this stuff and you can kiss your chances of promotion – maybe even your whole career – goodbye.

    “When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.”
    ? Max Planck

  25. holymacmoses says:

    Another aspect of this case which is worrying me is how much knowledge and seeming control the Daily Record has over some of the actors in this mess. They make confident pronouncements in the following passage taken form their article

    “Silence from SNP chief executive Peter Murrell on the messages which show him urging police action against Alex Salmond was always untenable.

    The party strategy of not responding to the Daily Record’s original press inquiry three weeks ago was doomed to fail.

    Now we know that Murrell, who is married to Nicola Sturgeon, sent the messages which enraged the Salmond camp.

    A storm is approaching.

    Murrell can expect trouble on two fronts. The first will be from Salmond loyalists who believe the messages show he plotted against
    the former First Minister. Salmond was charged with sexual offences and later acquitted.

    Salmond’s allies will call for Murrell’s resignation, while others will use the formal mechanisms of the party to demand a suspension.

    The second whirlwind will come from SNP members who believe this murky episode confirms what they regard as the reality of party headquarters: centralised, secretive and run to promote Sturgeon.

    Expect these Murrell critics to demand greater accountability at the top, which is code for a new governance structure and chief executive.

    Questions will also be raised about the wisdom of having a married couple occupy the two top posts in a political party.

    If Carrie Symonds was chief executive of the Tories, or if Richard Leonard’s wife was general secretary of Scottish Labour, eyebrows would be raised.

    Sturgeon will probably survive the fallout of the Salmond melodrama but it is far from certain whether her husband will.

    The recipient of that message will be wondering when her turn is coming:-)

    What appals me is that Murrell is only concerned about the words he used and not the sentiment contained within those words. Sturgeon and Murrell seem to believe that incarcerating innocent people for the rest of their lives is perfectly acceptable behaviour.

    I don’t think Mrs Murrell is going to survive Mr Hutcheon. And I’m beginning to wonder just how wide this ‘stitching up’ actually goes.

    Mucho Gracias yet again. You are such a good man.

  26. Kenny says:

    Should’ve said previously, this is a cracker of a post.
    That clip of the COPFS statement, that there was no evidence – at the trial or otherwise – that Murrell tried to put pressure on police, is dynamite.

    Incredible series of posts over this last few months, utterly riveting.
    Thanks for your time and efforts, Stuart.

  27. Big Jock says:

    Murrell has now allegedly admitted sending the WhatsApp(According to The National) , but regrets the wording. He meant to say: ” I hope that F*cker likes porridge”.

    Seriously though. It is in the National. Also there is a glitch in the WhatsApp system that allows the retrieval of deleted messages.

  28. Liz says:

    @Big Jock maybe someone can retrieve the alphabet witches whatsapp as well.

  29. Willie says:

    And meanwhile Sturgeon schemes on another lockdown whilst Freeman announces an ID card system is now in place ready to launch to allow people to access things like buses, trains, public spaces such as shops and museums.

    ID cards for certain groups she says but this this has all the hallmarks of the Pass Laws so beloved of in South Africa.

  30. WhoRattledYourCage says:

    ‘The Salmond melodrama.’Tacky. Then again it’s the Record, you expect nothing else.

  31. WhoRattledYourCage says:

    Willie: funny that ID card crap comes right on the back of a Tory MP stating that those with and without vaccinations should be separated, with one group given licence to travel internationally, and the other cooped up and locked up until they get the jag. This is getting murkier and weirder and more disturbing all the time. Sounds like the card system they use for curtailing travel in China, too.

  32. Achnababan says:

    Watching the vid of NS evasive response to Big JB’s question three thoughts came in to my empty morning mind:

    1. Eye contact – NS looking down a lot, looking but not looking at anyone…. Sure sign of deception

    2. Wulls great post at the weekend likening NS to Tony Bliar. Same tone, same pained look on the face – ‘you must beleive me, I am Tony Bliar…..’

    3. If Wulls comparison to TB is misplaced then the only explanation for this painful performance is that she knows the shit is about to hit the fan… and her friends are deserting her

  33. Big Jock says:

    Achnababan. Also “Mock Indignation” . Something we always accuse the Yoons of when they say they are being attacked by Cybernats.

    For the love of God Sturgeon, please go and take that bastard with you. We want our party back. We want our referendum. We don’t want anymore of your fecking Covid-19 distractions.

    Look a Squirrel!

  34. John Higham says:

    If Alex was to loose these documents , or the computer they are on …….. and I was the one that found them / it ………. I would have no problem at all making it all public and facing the consequences. Just saying like …… some things have to be done for your country ?

  35. kapelmeister says:

    Sounds like about 4 people applauded Sturgeon at the end of her answer and not very vigorously at that.

  36. Terry says:

    Big Jock says:
    6 October, 2020 at 10:49 am
    Murrell has now allegedly admitted sending the WhatsApp(According to The National) , but regrets the wording. He meant to say: ” I hope that F*cker likes porridge”.

    Cheers for that jock. It made me laugh. Helped alleviate the anger and anxiety this whole stitch up has created.

    Where would we be without Wings?

  37. David Lyon says:

    The fact that these messages are leaking suggests that at least one person who was a member of the WhatsApp group chat was a Salmond supporter.

    In that case I would expect that person, whoever they are, to have a copy of the entire group chat. They would be beyond the reach of COPFS and therefore the messages cannot be so easily destroyed.

  38. Big Jock says:

    Kapel – If you notice Matheson behind her. His face looks like he is internally thinking about how embarrassing this is. I think that every elected member of the party will know the truth about Murrell.

    He will not have any friends in the party apart from St Nicola. So the games a bogey for the Murrells. Particularly for her own zero tolerance for other peoples mistakes.

    Of course the difference is, non of this was a mistake!

  39. Big Jock says:

    Terry – It’s like an episode of The Thick Of It!

    I sometimes need to remember this is real!

  40. James Che. says:

    Meanwhile MI5 bill going through House of Commons, give some the right to commit crimes against the public, labour abstained.

  41. Lorna Campbell says:

    I must admit that I started off by being sceptical and trying to keep an open mind about the Alex Salmond affair, but the more I hear and see, the less sceptical I find myself. Even if there was not an actual conspiracy, ‘intent’ is all, as the ‘hate crime’ legislation tells us. That someone somewhere ‘intended’ that Mr Salmond should not be able to make a return to front-line politics, now appears to be more likely by the day.

  42. Effijy says:

    With the Daily Redcoat printing a statement of supposed addition from Murrell
    will this lead to an SNP search for a Legal Firm that isn’t already hired to take
    The Record to Court?

    Will Scotland face a shortage of lawyers in the near future?
    Will they all retire with the excessive fees they are receiving?
    Will Scotland’s legal bills add up to more than the lockdown costs?

  43. James Che. says:

    Meanwhile MI5 bill going through House to give certain memembers the right to commit crimes against the public.
    Labour abstained

  44. Breeks says:

    I think a point here that some folks are missing, is that the Record, and now it seems the National too, are freely reporting the text of the WhatsApp comments, and asserting Murrell has admitted they are genuine, but, if I correctly understand it, Alex Salmond faces prosecution if he reveals any of this evidence in his pursuit of justice and clearing his name.

    That seems grossly unfair, and doesn’t it constitute perverting the course of justice by the justice system itself?

  45. Dan says:

    @ David Lyon

    Aye, have thought similar for a while regarding as to how some alleged messages were leaked.
    If the text of the supposed leaked messages is true then it would appear there was a remarkable belief or confidence within those in the group that it was secure and all were on board. One can only imagine what else the entire message trail would comprise of…
    I suppose initially that might have been the case but as things developed some thought “hang on, this is getting into dodgy territory” and allegiances shifted to protect themselves from events that may unfold in the future.

    Meanwhile, here’s a tune by The Automatic dedicated to those involved in the group…

    WhatsApp coming over the hill, is it a monster, is it a monster…

  46. Breastplate says:


    Noun; a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful.

    It was not a single person and as we found out during the trial, there was a WhatsApp group sharing information and ideas on how to keep Alex Salmond returning to frontline politics.

    This is indeed a conspiracy.

    Some of the group are protected by anonymity such as the Alphabet Sisters.

  47. Breastplate says:

    To add, the conspiracy continues.

  48. James Che. says:

    Meanwhile it is now illegal to fly your own flag in Argentina, your are to be deported if you do.
    Liberty and human rights disappear in Argentina..

  49. Ottomanboi says:

    Sometime ago I read in a German media source that the SNP was a proto going on full blown Fascist organization. At the time I discounted it as fanciful negative propaganda. However, whatever construct may be put on the term Fascist the gut feeling that there is some visceral truth in that is made manifest by current events. The SNP big shots may not believe in ‘herd immunity’ but they certainly believe in herding the masses.
    More lockdowns with a controlling twist of ID cards smacks of something familiar from history. What next, mob rule painted signs on doors of suspected ‘carriers’.
    A truly free and independent Scotland under this régime….NEVER!

  50. Beaker says:

    @Fireproofjim says:
    6 October, 2020 at 10:40 am
    “Surely WhatsApp messages, once sent, can not really be destroyed and are always “out there” for those with the skills to retrieve them.
    Admittedly I know nothing about such processes but that’s my understanding.”

    If you can get hold of the hardware, ie the device used, then you can find the messages, even if the user has deleted them.

    I don’t know the techy bits, but for pictures as an example, the file records the device details in the code.

  51. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Ottomanboi –

    A friend sent me this link, saying you roasted it here recently. Sorry I missed it.

    I wonder if you got any response from the usual Lockdown fans?

  52. Breastplate says:


    This may interest you.

  53. Breastplate says:

    Ian B,

  54. Mike Fenwick says:

    Extract from DR article: “Murrell has now confirmed sending the messages, the Record has been told by sources familiar with the situation.”

    1) To whom has he so confirmed sending the messages?

    2) Who are the sources?

    3) Why was it that it was the DR who were exclusively told? I’d vow there was a reason it was chosen!

  55. holymacmoses says:

    Given the timing of that message I reckon that Murrell was trying to create firepower and cover for his wife and has continued to be used for that purpose. Nicola Sturgeon and ‘others’ made a huge legal mistake in trying to give ScotGov the power to backdate criminal complaints against employees who no longer had any connection with them. They made an even bigger mistake in assuming to take the role of a police investigation in order to fulfil their aim of ‘ridding themselves’ of Mr Salmond in future years. Mr Murrell’s behaviour seems questionable in that he appears to have use equipment and information from the SNP in order to assist in an illegal prosecution of a previous member of his party about whom he will have had a great deal of knowledge with regard to their movements and contacts over decades. It is difficult to know how many lawyers will have been paid altogether and certainly difficult to know how many will have been paid for by the PCS, or by SNP or by ScotGov. So many people seem to have compromised themselves in this affair that the sheer number creates a strong defensive wall which will come down with an enormous crash UNLESS one or two people are prepared to sacrifice themselves on the altar of ‘for the good of Scotland’.
    I keep thinking on what turmoil and hurt Mr Salmond, his wife and family and friends have undergone for years because of the gross moral turpitude of certain actors involved in this case

    It also riles me greatly at the moment that it is the ;complaints’ of these people and their pals which has silenced the Rev on twitter. When I consider their moral standards set against the service to Scotland carried out by Wings I get furious that I can no longer interact with him and his followers and admirers and haters on twitter.

  56. Alec Lomax says:

    Ickean youtube vids getting posted above.

  57. Ottomanboi says:

    Truth of a matter often starts out as labelled ‘conspiracy theory’ even if the theorists of ‘the conspiracy’ base their conclusions on facts available in the public domain. The deniers and the slow learners soon become unpleasantly aware of the adverse consequences of their hubris but the milk has already been spilled.

  58. MaggieC says:

    Kapellmeister @ 10.33 am
    As you said Alex Neil was right along that it should have been a judge led inquiry , as he said in this article from the bbc the day after Alex Salmond’s trial was over ,

    This whole “ affair “ gets murkier as every day goes by and it’s time for all involved in this to be held responsible for their actions . Whether it’s officials within the COPS , the Scottish Government or the Snp Party it’s time that they resigned but they have to be held to account and charged and taken to court for their actions in the conspiracy against Alex Salmond .

    “ As the saying goes “ it’s time to clean out the stables “ and get rid of the shit that’s causing the stink .

  59. Socrates MacSporran says:

    This entire shit show could well cost us INdependence for a very-long time.

    The mainstream Unionist media has left this matter well alone, but, with a mere eight months until the 2021 Holyrood Elections, they now have time to really get to work in blackening the name of the SNP – and this is something they will gladly do.

    This whole episode could mean the difference between an overall SNP majority, or a hung parliament, in which the SNP is the largest party, but dependant on others (as now), to get legislation through.

    Such a scenario, with the fall-out from Brexit, could enbolden the Tories to shut down Holyrood.

    The SNP really needs to get this sorted-out now, and, if it means Mr and Mrs Murrell have to go, better they go sooner rather than later.

  60. James Che. says:

    Ottomanboi, This is a good watch too , recently uploaded on YouTube by Doctors and Lawyers.
    Dr Reiner Fuellmich, Crimes against Humanity,
    Apparently placing( covid?) patients in with old people was a world wide plan. But a lot of information in this upload for everyone, talks about testing and human rights and liberty being taken world wide,
    Before doctors and lawyers are talking about it and legal action that can be taken, perhaps we have moved on from conspiracy theories,

  61. Paul D says:

    When they chucked the Rev off Twitter and there was much gloating from the usual suspects I said to a work colleague that they should be careful what they wish for. My thinking then was that if Stu channels his talent and energy into the blog then he would be unstoppable.

    And so it is proving to be, you are on such a run of form at the moment. A lot of uncomfortable reading for many of us in the independence movement, but utterly necessary. More power to your elbow.

    Thanks also for the heads-up on Mr Dangerfield’s blog, it’s a real treasure trove.

  62. Daisy Walker says:

    Peter Murrell – as Chief Executive of the SNP – had a duty to firefight any incident whereby a high profile member of the SNP becomes high profile for alleged illegalities, and to do so without interfering – for good or bad – with any Police enquiry.

    His job was clearly to rise above and think about and act, (legally) and in the best interests of the party.

    Not to add fuel to the fire.

    Regardless of the exact wording – his whatsapp messages clearly show he was not carrying out his job properly.

    I do hope the honesty brokers within the SNP and the Civil Service are keeping a close eye on government contracts being issued at this time… Mr and Mrs Mundell may be requiring a lot of money in the near future.

    But in the mean time, we are running out of time. All yes supporters – either for or against NS – cannot but see the benefits of getting support for Indy over 60% by years end.

  63. Breastplate says:

    Alec Lomax,
    Now that you have watched them I would be interested in your considered opinion?

  64. Breastplate says:

    James Che,
    What I found interesting is how the PCR test for this came about and how the scientific community and the manufacturers themselves view the PCR tests as next to useless.

  65. Monsieur le Roi Grenoulleverteetprofonde says:

    Let’s see if I am getting this right.

    According to sections 162 and 163 of the 2010 act material disclosed by COPFS in pursuing a trial cannot be released subsequently. In the Sheridan case this was ignored (or overturned) by the Court of Sessions because of false witness , criminal activity, and vexatious duplicity (sending the witness faraway) by the pursuer(NGN).
    So it would appear that the section 162/163 provision cannot be used to shield wrongdoing/potential criminality.(Confirmed by three judges and not challenged by COPFS)
    The threatening letter from COPFS to AS lawyers therefore seems to have little force(as long as the evidence of conspiracy or other wrongdoing holds up).
    It seems to me that the failure to release material simply needs to be challenged by the act of releasing it by the AS legal team.
    I am not a lawyer(obviously) so if I am misunderstanding I won’t be offended by a correction.

  66. Joe says:

    Alec Lomax says:
    6 October, 2020 at 12:28 pm
    Ickean youtube vids getting posted above

    Well, im just glad that there’s people posting them who are kosher enough to acknowledge 😉

  67. Donald Raymond says:

    Well I hope there is other evidence for the conspiracy to fall back on, because if one deleted message is all that remains then we may never get to the bottom of what really happened.

  68. G H Graham says:

    So Sturgeon & Murrell (who’s income is kept secret), two people who allegedly can’t even be honest about their own relationship, have employed multiple legal teams to prevent release of evidence that was allegedly used to frame an innocent man for serious sexual crimes, evidence which the COPFS claims doesn’t even exist.

    Why isn’t this the main newspaper headline?

    Why is it, that the MSM, usually hungry to demolish the SNP at the earliest opportunity, can barely find more than a few inches of copy to make some faint-hearted suggestion at some sort of impropriety?

    Furthermore, what is the real relationship between Sturgeon & her inner circle of kinky chums & that of her & the British Establishment?

    Why do the general public have so little information or insight about those people (mostly women by the way) Sturgeon has surrounded herself with?

    What possible reason or motive could the British Establishment have to remain largely quiet on this entire nasty business?

    If independence minded people cannot see now that they are being played, not only by Sturgeon but by the British establishment, I suppose they never will.

  69. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Breastplate –

    Just a couple of weeks ago Jason Leitch let slip that the tests were ‘a bit rubbish’.

    The same tests whose results were used to justify the mass lockdown of uni/college campuses just days later.

  70. Hatuey says:

    David Lyon says:
    6 October, 2020 at 11:24 am
    The fact that these messages are leaking suggests that at least one person who was a member of the WhatsApp group chat was a Salmond supporter.


    Not necessarily. As I understand it, and I could be wrong, certain items including a phone were collected to be used as potential sources of evidence. I believe that information derived from that phone was deemed inadmissible as evidence in court – who knows why? – and, despite that, the information (in accordance with process) was made available to both the defence and prosecution teams.

  71. Al-Stuart says:

    The country is run to a great extent by civil servants. They are a permanent fixture. Most are decent and well meaning.

    However, this WoS article leaves me with the distinct impression that the civil service miscreants who have ulpability in the Alex Salmond case are open to charges of Malfeasance in Public Office. Hence the impression of them having a Bonfire of The Insanities.

    The civil service know that politicians are a transient, “here today, gone tomorrow” tribe.

    Sooner or later, Mr & Mrs Sturgeon WILL have been expelled from any position of power.

    Immediately after they bugger off back to Dreghorn, and we have an honourable replacement, there WILL be a forensic inquiry WITH TEETH into the botched, gerrymandered and corrupt efforts to frame and imprison former First Minister Alex Salmond.

    The current clique of creeps and malcontents within the civil service will be looking to shred and/or burn any incriminating documents that the politicians and those dubious senior Keepers of NS Skeletons such as Leslie Evans et al., have left behind.

    The trouble is there are often copies and originals lurking about and the criminal charges for perverting the course of justice can be far more serious than the original crime.

    Oh Nicola and Peter and Derek, and Yousaf and Rhiannon, what a tangled web we weave…

  72. Breastplate says:

    Ian B,
    it’s also more than a bit rubbish that we are basing decisions on false data from these tests and I suppose that’s why scientists and constitutional lawyers are up in arms.

  73. James Che. says:

    Breastplate, very interesting I would say, and how they decided to close down other opinions. Are you able to verify the following,
    Am I right or wrong, did I not read somewhere that certain countries are suing tedros due to vaccines harming their country and people? Is that not in process at this moment in time?
    It would appear that if you follow the money, the big investors in vaccines, and lobbyists the results are differening from the emergency treatment being metered out, under which laws that used to protect human rights and liberties are being taken away worldwide, in Britain Boris is suggesting using army to help out,
    Is this going to be the light hand of army help or will it turn into a military enforced help to control people,

  74. Hatuey says:

    Ian, you’re not being entirely honest with this. He said they were rubbish very specifically in the sense that the didn’t allow differentiation between those who had had it previously and recovered, and were not infectious, and those who were currently infected and infectious.

    Of course, you knew that.

    And you are smart enough to know that that doesn’t make them rubbish. It makes them useful in that you can test someone and say for certainty that they do not have it.

    Your slant on all this perplexes me for a whole bunch of reasons. I think you underestimate the virus and seem to misunderstand the dynamics of the situation Scotland finds itself in right now.

    When the veil provided by the lag is lifted in say 3 weeks, and we are back to burying more covid victims than we are basic truths, maybe your perspective will change.

  75. Big Jock says:

    Socrates – Our only possible way out of this.

    Murrell resigns , rather than stays and tries to fight a lawsuit in the public gallery. Shortly after Nicola steps down for health reasons. Exhaustion and stress.

    There will be a storm , but not as massive as the tsunami of Nicola trying to defend her liar husband while still the FM.

    I have a horrible feeling that the murky Murrells will not go quietly into the night!

  76. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Breastplate –

    I suspect business owners will take great interest in what’s happening in Germany.

    The prospect of a class action at least offers hope that this interminable ‘lockdown’ nonsense will come to a halt. Sadly, it will be too late for many of the 500,000 – 800,000 business cited in the video (and that’s only the German economy!?).

  77. Big Jock says:

    This is like the death of the pope.

    Someone in Edinburgh give me a shout when they see the puff of white smoke coming from the Scotland Office. That way we will know the final evidence has been burnt and Evans, Murrell and Sturgeon will be gone.

    Hail the new chief Cherry and Salmond as advisor.

  78. Famous15 says:

    Boris gleefully takes the pish out of the nationalist separatists and here is me a worldwide Unionist having to resist showing resistance because,just because.

  79. Dan says:

    @ GH Graham

    Indeed, the silence is deafening with the lack of headlines and coverage. It is obvious they are not going near this with a barge pole.
    Whether they are just biding their time and letting it build up to be used at a time they deem most appropriate or for some other reason, we’ll find out soon enough.

    I’m sure everyone recalls the MSM and opposition politicians running “SNP / Scottish Government Administration BAD” for weeks on pigeon shit in a hospital water tank, and a bit of falling ice causing a bridge to be closed.
    Yet suspiciously all this and blowing millions of quids of taxpayers’ dosh is just not newsworthy…

    There’s also the matter of just how much time this is causing our elected officials to be distracted with, rather than them putting their full focus on ways to protect Scotland as the clock ticks down and the Transition Period ends.
    Everyone seems focused on a squirrel that has been set on fire rather than the big picture.

  80. Bob Mack says:

    I think it is imperative that the narrative of Nicola being the Independence saviour should be expunged ASAP.

    This movement cannot felt on one individual. She could have a serious accident at any time,then where are we? Is Independence therefore a non starter because Nicola is not there to lead it.

    What we have is a cult of personality because Nicola is seen by many as Independence itself. She is not.

    I truly think if many Nicola admirers look at how far we actually are from Independence they might awaken from the unconditional love fest they show at the moment.

  81. MaggieC says:

    Hateuy @ 1.34 pm , You said ,

    As I understand it, and I could be wrong, certain items including a phone were collected to be used as potential sources of evidence. I believe that information derived from that phone was deemed inadmissible as evidence in court – who knows why? – and, despite that, the information (in accordance with process) was made available to both the defence and prosecution teams.

    It was Sue Ruddick’s phone that contained the thousands of messages relevant to the civil case against Alex Salmond but the messages were not allowed to be submitted by his defence in the criminal case against him as reported here ,

    Just google * Sue Ruddick’s phone re Alex Salmond’s trial * and see the results as it was also reported about in other newspapers after Alex Salmond’s trial was over .

  82. Scozzie says:

    Given Sturgeon is hanging on with her fingernails, I think the only way she will go is when enough independence minded SNP MSPs / MPs have a word in her ear and tell her “time’s up” just like the guillotine came down on Thatcher, Blair and May by their own fellow colleagues.

    Will our SNP MSPs / MPs do what’s for the greater good? I bloody hope so as this is a total slow motion car crash.

  83. Bob Mack says:

    I don’t know if this is accurate but a friend just informed me that spookily the Chief Adviser to Tony Blair before his fall in Government was called ____Liz Lloyd.

    Not the same one, but Eerie if true.

  84. tartanfever says:

    Why is this article being jacked by the Covid lot linking to You Tube videos in which a lawyer directly claims that there has ‘not been one excess death in the world’ due to the virus ?

  85. Bob Mack says:


    It keeps them off the streets. Leave them alone.

  86. Patrick Roden says:

    Maybe the daily Redcoat article with no direct quotes, gives Mr Murrell an oportunity to say that in light of theseserious allegations, he is ‘resigning from the party in order to clear his name’

    He can then dissapear for some time while still being paid handsomely out of our budget, and at the same time take some of the heat away from Nicola.

    I feel that the conspiracy is unraveling and I’m just wondering who will be the first co-conspiritor to lose their nerve as they consider the potential consequences of being held to account for what is a serious crime.

  87. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @tartanfever/Bob Mack –

    The usual ignorant, blustering messenger-shooting.

    Why don’t either of you at least make an effort to address what the man says?

    A few months ago the posting of such a video prompted a deluge of abusive responses, usually with CamB as cheerleader.

    Now, it’s you who are in the minority.

    Not a very nice feeling, is it?

  88. kapelmeister says:

    The SNP could send Murrell on gardening leave but he’d only want mower money.

  89. CameronB Brodie says:

    I posted this on the previous thread, but it is relevant to post again, IMHO. The Scottish judicial system is deformed though standing under Westminster’s ill-founded legal authority, and British nationalism’s ideological hostility towards the Natural law and natural justice. So we need to sack the lot of them, apparently.

    International Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology, First Published June 17, 2018
    The Impossibility of Criminal Justice Ethics: Toward a Phenomenology of the Possible

  90. Heaver says:

    kapelmeister says:
    6 October, 2020 at 2:32 pm
    The SNP could send Murrell on gardening leave but he’d only want mower money.

    Sorry, you’re not making mulch sense.

  91. CameronB Brodie says:

    Ian Brotherhood
    Of course you are entitled to an opinion Ian, just as I’m entitled to tell you when you are wrong. I understand this stuff Ian, and I’m trained in law to respond ethically. You aren’t.

  92. cirsium says:

    @IanB, 1.46

    Thanks for posting Dr Fuellmich’s video. The FM should watch it and take note.

  93. Breastplate says:

    If you watched the video, (which I know you didn’t because he explains why) there’s no reason whatsoever you have to agree with him or the scientists that back his opinion but surely you could explain to me and others why he is wrong.

    Now if like others, you have decided he is wrong about one thing and therefore he must be wrong about everything then I would find that argument very difficult to swallow.

    If of course you have an opinion and you’re sticking to it no matter the contrary evidence then that is entirely your prerogative.

  94. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @CamB (2.40) –

    I’m only responding because you named me, not in reaction to the insult.

    Could you please watch the Fuellmich video (or as much as you have to) and give us an example of where he’s wrong?



  95. Breastplate says:

    Are you saying that everyone that has the same certificates as you have exactly the same opinion?

  96. CameronB Brodie says:

    I don’t want to disrupt the thread but I’m not happy with the btl ‘experts’ here, who are potentially endangering pubic health. If any of you lot who feel the lock-down is unnecessary can convince me in law that your position is correct, I’ll eat humble pie and apologies. Otherwise, get over yourselves peeps, you don’t have the necessary skills to ensure justice for all.

  97. CameronB Brodie says:

    Absolutely not, but the law and ethics provide pretty solid guides. As do best practice manuals and the sort of material I’ve been linking you too.

  98. Breastplate says:

    Also Tartanfever,
    Decisions made for us regarding the coronavirus are pertinent now as we are looking down the barrel of another lockdown.

  99. CameronB Brodie says:

    Ian Brotherhood
    Happily, though I’d appreciate it if you acknowledge you lack the professional insight I’ve been pointing you towards.

  100. Breastplate says:

    Then you accept that your peers can and will have differing opinions on this matter.

  101. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @CamB –

    More than happy to acknowledge, sincerely, that I lack the professional insight you’ve been pointing me towards.

    Looking forward to your take on the video.


  102. Joe says:

    I still think the biggest split in society today isn’t between left and right, religions or races but people who are prepared to try and think for themselves and those who don’t.

    30 years ago none of us would have able to hear what this corporate lawyer says. Now we can.

    But a lot of us are so attached to the safety and security provided by the ‘authorities’, their media and the narratives spun out from them that its impossible to let go.

    The 1st indy ref was a prime example. Scotland likely would have won that referendum otherwise.

    The tide is turning and when people wake up to the deception that has been this global pandemic it will be more difficult to fool them in future.

    The floodgates are about to burst methinks.

    Couple this with what is commonly called ‘pizzagate’, the FISA scandal in the US, global human trafficking, and blackmail operations (such as Mossads Epstein) and it really is brown trousers time for a lot of once untouchable people.

    But 1 thing at a time.

    The printing press did it once. The internet (for all its flaws) is doing it again.

    Im glad that I wasn’t one of those self appointed gate keepers trying to prop up a corrupt corporate globalist agenda like CBB and others. That would be shameful.

  103. Breastplate says:

    “ If any of you lot who feel the lock-down is unnecessary can convince me in law that your position is correct,”

    That particular request is addressed in the video and why constitutional lawyers think it is illegal.

  104. James Che. says:

    Bob Mack, all conspiracy theories stay conspiracy theories and can be dismissed as nutters,
    Unless they are truly investigated and researched by serious individuals wanting to find out what is and isn’t true,
    That is how Rev stu started with Suspected foul play in the snp, what proof of anything in you don’t search to find it,
    The snp effect us all in Scotland, the corona virus effects us all in Scotland, England , uk ,Germany, France America, etc.
    All people looking to confirm what the suspect before they have the proof or others helping the search or openly talking about a subject are conspiracy theorists, but when you open your mind it’s surprising,( like Rev ) what you find.

  105. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Joe –

    Apologies – I thought Ottomanboi had posted that video but I’ve been corrected.

    Thanks for posting it – it’s the best exposition I’ve seen yet and does carry some glimmers of hope.


  106. CameronB Brodie says:

    Just because a lawyer appears to be defending human rights, it doesn’t necessarily mean this is the case. Lawyers often use their skills to undermine the fabric of international law and order. Just saying.

    Has Global Health Law Risen to Meet the COVID-19 Challenge?
    Revisiting the International Health Regulations to Prepare for
    Future Threats

  107. CameronB Brodie says:

    Btw, I’m not a lock-down fan, I just know a bit about public health management and understand how the radical right approaches the law.

    Globalization and Health volume 16, Article number: 70 (2020)
    The International Health Regulations (2005), the threat of populism and the COVID-19 pandemic

  108. WhoRattledYourCage says:

    You do have to ask who the hell CBB is, and what his (self-proclaimed) qualifications are for his constant, condescending, narcissistic, pompous link-slinging about everything under the sun; it’s utterly bizarre. Even if he told us I still wouldn’t believe him.

    All he does is take up a lot of space posting esoteric links to tiny-minority-interest subjects with meaningless polysyllablic titles, and abuse other people. It’s impossible to take offence when he does, cos you have no respect for his deranged views whatsoever. The phrase “If you can’t blind them with science, baffle them with bullshit” seems custom-made for his stuff here. Hilariously strange.

  109. Joe says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    Im just an arse who likes an argument. Ottomanboi has been solid and level headed along with bipod who has been great and very steady in the face of some absolute shyte from some of the usual suspects

  110. Bob Mack says:

    @Ian Brotherhood,

    You believe what you wish and I will do the same. That’s it.

  111. Socrates MacSporran says:


    Kudos on your penultimate sentence:

    “If you can’t blind them with science, baffle them with bullshit.”

    How well that suits our friend CBB. Better to do what I do, scroll on past, it makes for an easier life.

  112. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Bob Mack –

    Fair enough and no hard feelings.

    Let’s see what CamB makes of it all.


  113. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m nobody special but I know a hell of a lot more about defending democracy and human rights than you do.

    Disability, Identity, and the Law: A Phenomenological Study of Living with Acquired, Invisible Impairment

  114. Big Jock says:

    I think Sturgeon would like another lock down. However I suspect the money isn’t there , and she is shit scared of the reaction in the press.

    This is a woman driven by PR and the press. When you are trying to free a country. You cannot be scared of bad PR or the press. It goes with the territory.

    You have to upset the comfortable and persuade the uncomfortable to act.

    Sturgeon is an abject failure. She isn’t even any better at stopping Covid than WM.

    One question. What legacy has Sturgeon left, that wasn’t there in 2014. I am struggling to think of one achievement! That tells you everything.

  115. John Digsby says:

    CameronB Brodie says:
    6 October, 2020 at 3:16 pm
    I’m nobody special but I know a hell of a lot more about defending democracy and human rights than you do.

    Disability, Identity, and the Law: A Phenomenological Study of Living with Acquired, Invisible Impairment

    Hi Cam – this is a good example. How does what you’ve linked to relate to your comment? Are you suggesting that you or WhoRattled have an invisible disability that changes your perception of the law?

    The connection between what you write and what you link to is probably what renders your efforts a mite incomprehensible to the rest of us. So could you, on this occasion, explain the connection in relation to this specific article

    As an apparent student of the law, I’m sure you can provide an accessible summary.

  116. John Digsby says:

    If NS falls, who replaces her? And would they be any better?

  117. CameronB Brodie says:

    Ian Brotherhood
    Your man’s position was incompatible with global health law, so I can’t support him. I’ve provided reasons for my position for quite some time now through my link machine, though it’s clear you’re not interested in learning. Though you do appear eager to support the radical right’s attack on legal reason and human rights. That’s how it looks to me anyway.

  118. CameronB Brodie says:

    John Digsby
    You appear to lack imagination. I was trying to show folk that they might not have the necessary insight to protect their human rights.

    What Does Social Justice
    Require For The Public’s
    Health? Public Health Ethics
    And Policy Imperatives

    Social justice demands more than fair distribution of resources in
    extreme public health emergencies.

  119. MaggieC says:

    Interesting tweet from Philip Sim Re the Harassment and Complaints Committee regarding a statement from Linda Fabiani today ,

    “ Having fallen out with ScotGov, the SNP and Alex Salmond last week, today the Salmond inquiry committee has fallen out with itself, with convener Linda Fabiani “deeply disappointed and angry” about private discussions being leaked to the media. More evidence to come out tomorrow: “

    It will be very interesting to see what evidence is published tomorrow ? .

  120. John Digsby says:


    Not at all – I even read what you linked to. I just fail to see its relevance to the point I thought you were making, so I was hoping you would clarify what that point was?

  121. Big Jock says:

    JD – “If Sturgeon falls who will replace her?”

    Answer -Someone who wants independence!

  122. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @CamB (3.25) –

    Ah, right, so you didn’t watch it.

    You said you would (at 2.53), so even if you started watching it right away (which you didn’t because you were still sending in links) and sent your 3.25 comment as soon as you stopped, that means you watched half an hour tops.

    But you didn’t, did you?

    I’ll leave it to others to comment on your ‘analysis’.

    I make no comment whatever, resume ignoring you, and hope that anyone with an interest in establishing the facts of what’s going on does likewise.

  123. CameronB Brodie says:

    John Digsby
    You’re not likely to ever understand the relevance until you take the time to educate yourself.

  124. Breeks says:

    Patrick Roden says:
    6 October, 2020 at 2:29 pm

    …I feel that the conspiracy is unraveling and I’m just wondering who will be the first co-conspiritor to lose their nerve as they consider the potential consequences of being held to account for what is a serious crime.

    I was having similar thoughts, but I wondered too whether the Legal / State “Establishment” was beginning to lose patience with the whole affair, and realise just how much permanent damage to it’s reputation and integrity was occurring on the back of such a grubby, nasty, and failed conspiracy.

    Any further anti-Salmond nonsense is now going to backfire spectacularly I think, and it will be interesting to see what happens with Craig Murray and Mark Hirst. I don’t think the Establishment has gone soft, not for a moment, but the offensive has failed and they need a strategic withdrawal to regroup and salvage their ‘network‘.

    It ‘feels’ like they might be trying to isolate Murrell, and maybe line him up as the expendable scapegoat, in the hope it might satisfy the demand for further heads to roll… but I don’t think it will. With Rev Stu on the case, it definitely won’t.

    I actually suspect Murrell will be revealed as ‘small fry’ in the bigger scheme of things. Who cares if he’s sacked or prosecuted when there are so many others with a bigger price on their heads? He’s not that important, but for now, he is the weakest link.

    “IF” that’s right, I wouldn’t like to be in Peter Murrell’s shoes right now. He is both the fall-guy being thrown to the wolves, but his WhatsApp comments might yet prove to be the thread which unravels the whole rotten conspiracy. I bet that makes him ‘really‘ popular within the coven of such charming and delightful co-Conspirators, (whom we know are such fair minded people who take defeat magnanimously… Ha! Ha! Ha!)

  125. CameronB Brodie says:

    an Brotherhood
    I watched enough of it to get a grip on where he was coming from. Do you not think you’re making a bit of an arse of yourself promoting a particular legal position, when you have zero training in law?

  126. Bob Mack says:


    Sorry Cam that’s a cop out to a very valid question. Don’t assume everybody has your expertise set !! Tell the man what he wants to undestand.

  127. John Digsby says:


    I literally read what you wrote and what you linked to (at least the abstract, as the full text is unavailable). What more would you suggest I do to educate myself, aside from my master’s degree and doctorate, exactly?

    I know how to read, and I know how to critically interpret text. I’m mainly trying to decide if you actually know anything, or are just frantically popping terms into Google scholar with scant relevance to the topic at hand, linking to them, and then dismissing anyone who asks questions as ‘uneducated’ to conceal the fact that you actually know naff all.

    Could you kindly advise?

  128. Breeks says:

    John Digsby says:
    6 October, 2020 at 3:24 pm
    If NS falls, who replaces her? And would they be any better?

    Joanna Cherry, and YES.

  129. John Digsby says:

    @Big Jock – yeah, but are you not a bit worried that there aren’t any who are in line to take over?

  130. FatzDomingo says:

    There is adequate European Case Law regarding the destruction of ANY evidence which puts the Defence at a disadvantage compared to the Prosecution… this results in a Contravention of Article 6 which in effect torpedoes any trial it has taken place in.

  131. John Digsby says:

    Which is of course why she’s been effectively blocked as an MSP. Sigh.

  132. Tinto Chiel says:

    “CameronB Brodie says @2.50:

    I don’t want to disrupt the thread……”

    But you do, on every thread, and then suggest anyone who doesn’t agree with you isn’t qualified to comment. Despite your posting screeds of stuff and expecting us to read them, I strongly suspect you never genuinely engage with other data or viewpoints you don’t agree with. Other posters are dismissed as intellectually inferior or “right wing”.

    I just wish you coild make your points by normal to-and-fro rather than flooding the place with references which are usually quite irrelevant.

    Maggie C: “It will be very interesting to see what evidence is published tomorrow.”

    Yes, things are hotting up. Think the SNP leadership may be slowly approaching its Timisoara Moment.

  133. stonefree says:

    @holymacmoses at 12:17 pm

    ” Mr Murrell’s behaviour seems questionable in that he appears to have use equipment and information from the SNP in order to assist in an illegal prosecution of a previous member of his party about whom he will have had a great deal of knowledge with regard to their movements and contacts over decades.”
    I agree with the content of your post, the above has a great deal of interest, take out illegal or legal you are left with Murrell is the CEO and I have said according to Ian MacCann he is the Data Control Officer, as that officer he could have possibly have breached the Act in at lease 1 and possible many more .
    How Many? I don’t know
    They had 125,000 members
    If you then consider Murrell’s position within the SNP.and the SNP being an unincorporated association Murrell may have serious problems ahead

  134. Robbo says:

    Sorry to buck the trend here which clearly has provoked a lot of commentary but I would simply question what is the point in all of this other than get some token moral victory for Salmond. Let me say at the outset I have great respect for both Salmond and Sturgeon and my only goal in this is to get Independence from this corrupt British establishment which we all detest. Salmond has been cleared of criminal charges and we all know politics can often be a dirty game to play and as with any Party there are skeletons that should be aired but aren’t and never will be until it makes no difference.
    All I can say is that I, along with many others, traipsed the length and breadth of my home town of Kirkcaldy at the Ref and subsequent Elections and the one thing that sticks in my mind (which seems ludicrous now) but many many women would not vote for Independence as they did not trust Salmond. We of course will perhaps never know if all these ‘conspiracy theories’ are accurate or not but I have some sympathy for Sturgeon in that she was caught between a rock etc in that if she allowed the ‘complaints’ to be brushed aside she would be castigated by everyone and perhaps in the knowledge any subsequent case would be difficult to prove in court she may have decided to press ahead with this as the least damaging road to take. In conclusion yes we want a Party to be a Party we can be proud of and of course in that aim openess and transparency is key but we do not live in a fantasy world and are in danger of supplying the enemy and media with amunition to damage our strive for Independence which in reality can only be delivered by supporting the SNP. I constantly blogg on social media sites now that are increasingly using the ‘apparent splits’ as a means to damage our cause which disturbs and saddens me. So for the sake of unity please let the Committee and others do their work without further critique.

  135. WhoRattledYourCage says:

    Be interesting to watch the Twitter feed of the alphabet curs (for whoever knows them) and watch them degenerate into weepy whinefests aboot ‘misogyny’ (i.e. any criticism of women now, no matter how warranted, especially from a man) and throwing out strange therapy phrases about ‘copying mechanisms’ and such dross. No more reliable barometer of ‘oh shit it’s all coming crashing down’can be found these days in the online fantasy realm of the passive-aggressive female political bully.

  136. Robert Louis says:

    Mr Murrell needs to be booted out the SNP. As for his wife, Nicola Sturgeon, she still insists she has absolutely no idea anything her husband says or does, ever, allegedly.

    It all just makes me think of Al Franken’s book, ‘Lies and the lying liars who tell them’. It was about politicians too.

    I just cannot put into words how utterly utterly dissappointed I am with Nicola Sturgeon, and Peter Murrell. Seriously. I just keep asking myself two things, WHY? Who benefits?

    What a mess. Is this yet another case of, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely?

  137. WhoRattledYourCage says:

    A damn addendum: ‘coping mechanisms.’

  138. MaggieC says:

    I know its repeating what I said earlier re Alex Neil and a judge led inquiry but he just has renewed his call for a judge led inquiry again today , Article from the Herald ,

    This is not going away no matter what the Snp and Scottish Government try to cover up .

  139. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Politics is not all about personalities – much though the mainstream media would like it to be.

    It does not really matter who is fronting the Independence drive, provided they are seen as utterly committed and sincere. The message is more-important than the messenger.

    The likes of oanne Cherry, or Kenny McAskill, will, I am certain, deliver that message more-cogently and consistently than Mrs Murrell or Ian Blackford has, which will be no bad thing.

    Also, with the way the mainstream has sought to personalise everything as Nicola Sturgeon’s SNP being responsible for al their perceived failings of Scottish government, having a new face stymies all those SNP Bad notions.

  140. Robert Louis says:

    Robbo at 0349pm

    Given Alex Salmond, one of Scotland’s greatest leaders and a wholly innocent man, was facing the rest of his days in jail (literally), I hardly think seeking the truth as “some token moral victory”, as you put it.

    Sometimes in life, no matter how much we wish they didn’t, things happen that need to be faced up to. This mess caused by the SNP ‘leader’ ship, is an example. Wouldn’t it be great if we could all just pretend it didn’t happen, and focus on indy eh? Except we can’t. Too many lies, too much deception, that carries on to this day.

    No, this needs dealt with, and since NS has refused to sack Leslie Evans or indeed her husband, Pete Murrell, then she too needs booted out.

    We all wish it wasn’t this way. As I said above, words cannot express my dissappointment at NS or, for that matter, Peter Mureell.

  141. Desimond says:


    Cue “Mistrial” and hello Long Grass!

  142. Big Jock says:

    Robbo – Look at the bigger picture.

    We have a leader of the country married to a leader of our party. Who actively tried to get rid of the greatest leader Scotland has had since Robert The Bruce! Yes Salmond is as close to Bruce in modern times as you get.

    Sturgeon has no interest in pursuing independence. At the same time she is up to no good tying herself in knots over the Salmond affair. Her 6 years in power have achieved nothing, Zero. We are not one step nearer to independence.

    Look at the polls people say. My answer to that is. Why are we not already independent, if the people have said they want it? Because Nicola is a snake oil salesman. She is a big con. She is the one stopping independence not Boris.

    What will be achieved? Getting rid of two phonies and taking their Woke brigade with her.

    Ultimately what will be achieved is independence.

    We have nothing to fear by Sturgeon going. We have everything to lose if she stays.

    What more does it take for people to realise she is conning us all.

  143. CameronB Brodie says:

    Bob Mack
    I hear you.

    John Digsby
    I was simply pointing you to practical knowledge that is necessary to achieving social justice, which is not possible if the law does not respect Natural law and accommodate phenomenology. But this is exactly what Scots law is being forced to do. Which is just as well, as this will enable Scots law to remain coherent and compatible with Westminster’s legal authority, which no longer acknowledges Natural law or feels constrained by the Common law.

    So Westminster is no longer a democratic institution that is capable of supporting public health, which is why I though it might be helpful for you to know what sort of knowledge is necessary to achieving social justice.

  144. Big Jock says:

    Robert- As you say.

    Some things are necessary, even if they are painful. Pretending it’s all ok , is asking for trouble.

  145. Daisy Walker says:

    @ CBB ‘Do you not think you’re making a bit of an arse of yourself promoting a particular legal position, when you have zero training in law?’

    Wow Cameron, any idea how arrogant and condescending that comment comes across as?

    As the auld saying goes, ‘facts are chiels that winna ding.’

    Laws, whether common or statute come about from human beings and what society of the day and throughout time consider to be acceptable or not.

    They don’t get put on earth by divine beings – for whom none of us can possibly hope to interpret or understand their pronouncements.

    There’s a reason lawyers like to use latin and convoluted language, and one part is so we don’t see that the emperor has no clothes.

    What sayethe you, guilty or not guilty….. or are lawyers the only ones qualified to answer that question.

    What sayethe the jury – guilty or not guilty – or can only lawyers evaluate evidence, weigh it up and come to a conclusion.

  146. James Che. says:

    Stop having a go at each other,
    The reason I am interested in researching covid with an open mind is multifold,
    Snp keep quoting it as reason we can’t do anything else for independence at this time.
    Kangaroo closed courts without juries are being held under covid
    Westminster passing laws on a Sunday, and not being scrutinised under covid,
    passing fines that are not means tested under covid,
    Basic human right to freedom and liberty being demolished under covid.
    The ruling class running around the countryside and in shops as if they know there not going die from covid,
    Yet every MSM media telling us we are all contagious, seems not to be in keeping with statistics on normal influenza, cancer or heart deaths in which more people are dying due to hospitals place covid first patients, or suicides.and old people locked down with no visitors allowed for nearly a year now,
    It is very important to research the beast that is changing our politicians excuses for draconian measures, including holding up independence

  147. kapelmeister says:

    MaggieC @3:56

    Yes, a proper judicial inquiry would have the power to subpoena any evidence or witnesses.

  148. John Digsby says:


    It’s nice that you’ve replied to me. It doesn’t really answer the question I posed regarding your response to WhoRattled

    And the PhD thesis you linked to in that response doesn’t deal with any aspects of constitutional law, Natural law, nor indeed Scots Law. Indeed, it barely deals with the law at all, which only appears in one facet of the study – namely whether people with non-visible disabilities utilise the law at all in their daily dealings with employers. What exactly dies that have to do with the Natural Law,or indeed the nature of democracy at the Scots or UK level?

    So I’m afraid you may be answering a question that you wish I’d asked instead. Of course, we are in a text medium where expression is tricky, so perhaps I have misunderstood?

  149. CameronB Brodie says:

    Daisy Walker
    Any idea how pissed off I’m getting by some who are determined not to recognise their insufficiently informed opinion might actually be dangerous?

    Health and Human Rights, 2018 Dec; 20(2): 85–91.
    Human Rights in Public Health
    Deepening Engagement at a Critical Time

  150. Robert Graham says:

    Question CBB

    What’s your explanation on Sweden’s response to this epidemic ?

    So far apparently they have not followed your directions.

    They have been getting better real world rather than Theoretical results , The University in London that has been featured prominently and with statistics used by the Tory Government has so far been so far off the mark a Circus Monkey would have predicted comparable results ,

    You know shit , just like the rest of us so stop trying to push the I am more intelligent than you shit I bet if a poll was taken most people here would say they scroll past your endless fn links to fk knows what Theoretical paper by some unknown bloody author.

    So do everyone a favour cut the endless bloody irritating boring links nobody reads , it takes longer to scroll past your pish than is does to read most of the revenant posts , Educate Aye Educate your self and learn the stuff you offer isn’t fn read so it’s a pointless bloody waste of time . IMHO .

  151. Wee Chid says:

    Robbo says:
    6 October, 2020 at 3:49 pm

    “All I can say is that I, along with many others, traipsed the length and breadth of my home town of Kirkcaldy at the Ref and subsequent Elections and the one thing that sticks in my mind (which seems ludicrous now) but many many women would not vote for Independence as they did not trust Salmond.”

    Now many of us don’t trust Sturgeon and realise that she is not on the side of natural born women – only pretendy ones.

    Neither has she displayed any evidence that she is intent on independence.

    What’s the point in changing one corrupt govt for another. This needs sorting before independence – and we aren’t the ones giving the ammunition to the opposition. The SNP hierarchy are doing a fine job of that themselves.

  152. John Jones says:

    Big jock says
    Baby boxes!
    Not bad for 6 years effort.

  153. CameronB Brodie says:

    John Digsby
    I’m trying to give folk insight into how constitutional law works. I’ve posted enough links on Natural law, Common law, International law, Environmental law, Health law, human rights law, and Scots law, to start a small library. So I think I’ve at least tried to be helpful.

    The law can only serve the interests of justice, if it remains attached to practical science the Natural law. It does this by accommodating phenomenology, though Scots law is disabled from taking a phenomenological view.

  154. Gregor says:

    Soon, this could be us:

    & ROTTEN COPFS (et al) is leading the way…

  155. Garavelli Princip says:

    Cuilean says:
    6 October, 2020 at 10:31 am

    “COPFS cannot be unaccountable and both they and Police Scotland cannot be above the law, they purport to administer and uphold”.

    As Stu’s FOIs and detailed analysis has shown, they are both bodies (actually one totally entwined entity), that see themselves above the law AND totally unaccountable.

    What nominal political accountability that existed was quashed by the establishment of a national force – and possibly future State Police – with all the sinister connotations of that phrase.

    A close relative of mine who is a Scottish criminal lawyer has been telling me this for many years – and worse than that, the so-called ‘independent’ judiciary are just as corrupt and even less accountable. If left to themselves (i.e. unencumbered by a jury) they decide the verdict or response to an appeal to suit their Establishment proclivities, and then invent the argument(s) to justify the pre-determined decision. If you doubt this, just look at the Megrahi case.

    This relative has many examples, one from a few years back will suffice.

    One of her clients was fitted up by the police in a serious criminal matter. He was a law-abiding member of the public with no criminal record, who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Needless to say the plods (a so-called elite unit) missed the real culprits, but needed a body to save their blushes – £millions of ill-gotten gains were involved – never recovered. He would do.

    It was later demonstrated beyond any doubt that they could not possibly have seen – for reasons of shear distance between them and the events in question- what they claimed to see and have in evidence under oath, and that their victim could not possibly have committed the crime. On that basis of demonstrating that false evidence a man of impeccable character was released on appeal.

    But not before he had served several years in jail, lost his livelihood, wife, family and home, and was faced with building a new life out of nothing. Only some brilliant work and utter commitment by his legal team and a brilliant QC going above and beyond, got him out of jail – after many years and two separate appeals.

    But it is worse than that. Documents later emerged that showed that both the Police and COPFS had irrefutable evidence of his innocence BEFORE he went to trial, and that this evidence was deliberately withheld from the defence. Naturally none of the plods was done for perjury.

    These documents showed collusion between police and COPFS who both knew that they were fitting up an innocent man AND that the police involved were the real criminals. Those corrupt officers remained in post for many subsequent years, and indeed some were promoted.

    And so it is in the Salmond case – where clear prima facie evidence of a conspiracy to convict an innocent man existed (and still exists), but which was not allowed to be heard, and appears to be in the process of being for ever suppressed.

    There is truly something rotten at the heart of the Scottish legal/political/ civil service establishment.

    And in fact, this is the ONLY thing that makes me fear for the future of an independent Scotland.

  156. CameronB Brodie says:

    Robert Graham
    I wouldn’t like to guess, and though I’m certainly not an expert, I do have some legal and ethical insight into public health management. Though I can’t help it if the inter-cultural sociology of covid-19 isn’t clear yet.

  157. John Digsby says:


    You’ve still not answered my question about that one link in response to WhoRattled, which had nothing to do with any of those topics. What was the relevance to the topics you are now telling me you are expert on?

    I ask because I have this issue with a lot of your links (I have an interest in these areas so do actually click through out of curiosity) and often struggle to see the relevance. Since the one to WhoRattled was a particularly egregious example, I thought I’d get you to explain it.

    Again, that link references none of your topics back upon which you are now falling. If you can’t explain yourself in a simple answer, and a simple example, I am wondering what relevance and accuracy the other things you say on every thread actually are.

  158. Tannadice Boy says:

    @Garvelli Princip
    That’s a good post and more than worrying at the same time. I too voted and campaigned for Independence in 2014. I am concerned with developments. Not least that an innocent man, Alex Salmond, nearly got stitched up but was saved by a jury of reasonable Scots folk.

  159. Hatuey says:

    “What’s your explanation on Sweden’s response to this epidemic ?”

    With a population of about 10 million, Sweden has recorded around 6000 covid-19 deaths.

    That’s a mortality rate of about 0.6% which is fairly normal. I believe German is lower right now, from memory.

    Anyone suggesting we should accept a mortality rate like that and relax control measures is basically declaring himself to be a sociopath.

    In Scotland due to our comparatively poor public health we could probably double that mortality rate too. 1% of 5.5 million is 55 thousand souls.

  160. WhoRattledYourCage says:

    John Digsby, he says he’s ‘nobody special’ when asked, but says he knows a hell of a lot more about defending democracy and human rights than I do. Total random non-sequitur gibberish. Why should we believe a word he (if it’s even really a man – in fantasy netland, anything is possible – when he posts link upon link upon link about every subject under the sun?

    I mean, I might take, say, a lawyer or scientist seriously on the subjects he tends to post about, but why should I take the arrogant, condescending sneering of some random net nobody seriously when he refuses to identify his qualifications and specialist fields(s)? We should just take his word for it that he knows better aboot all these random subjects (he often says he is ‘rusty’ in) he throws links at us aboot?

    Personally, I think somebody nailed it above – he knows he haw aboot hee haw, randomly gets links from his ‘link machine'( as he calls it), posts them, then sneers he knows more than you/others aboot the topic NOT EVEN UNDER FUCKING DISCUSSION! I am laughing incredulously here. Cliche sera sera. 🙂

  161. Gary45% says:

    Ian Brotherhood@3.57
    A friend within the Indy movement contacted me at the weekend asking the opinion of myself and my wife (a retired medic) regarding this article. I know nothing about testing / false-positives etc. However, my wife does, and part of her response to our friend was as follows :-
    “I am somewhat sceptical of Dr Yeadon’s conclusions (and his underlying motives).
    I do not know what the true statistics are as I have no knowledge of the data on false positivity rate for the test being used by the Serco system. I have been highly sceptical of the Westminster decision to go with private companies instead of existing NHS labs (being of a suspicious mind in that this gave Westminster control of the data, both in numbers, and timings of release).
    I highlight a couple of areas in the article with which I have issues :-
    1. Dr Yeadon states in his article – “The test cannot distinguish between a living virus and a short strand of RNA from a virus which broke into pieces weeks or months ago.”

    Other recent publications indicate that the length of time viral RNA will be detectable is not known. :-
    “It is noteworthy that the presence of viral RNA in specimens does not always correlate with viral transmissibility. In a ferret model of H1N1 infection, the loss of viral culture positivity but not the absence of viral RNA coincided with the end of the infectious period. In fact, real-time reverse transcriptase PCR results remained positive 6–8 days after the loss of transmissibility. For SARS coronavirus, viral RNA is detectable in the respiratory secretions and stools of some patients after onset of illness for more than 1 month, but live virus could not be detected by culture after week 3”
    “Data are sparse on how the PCR results relate to viral culture results. There is some evidence of a relationship between the time from collection of a specimen to test, symptom severity and the chances that someone is infectious.”
    So – this statement of “fact” by Dr Yeadon is debateable.

    2. Dr Yeadon’s article states – “Imagine 10,000 people getting tested using those swabs you see on TV. We have a good estimate of the general prevalence of the virus from the ONS, who are wholly independent (from Pillar 2 testing) and are testing only a few people a day, around one per cent of the numbers recently tested in Pillar 2. It is reasonable to assume that most of the time, those being tested do not have symptoms. People were asked to only seek a test if they have symptoms. However, we know from TV news and stories on social media from sampling staff, from stern guidance from the Health Minister and the surprising fact that in numerous locations around the country, the local council is leafleting people’s houses, street by street to come and get tested.
    The bottom line is that it is reasonable to expect the prevalence of the virus to be close to the number found by ONS, because they sample randomly, and would pick up symptomatic and asymptomatic people in proportion to their presence in the community. As of the most recent ONS survey, to a first approximation, the virus was found in 1 in every 1000 people. This can also be written as 0.1%. So when all these 10,000 people are tested in Pillar 2, you’d expect 10 true positives to be found (false negatives can be an issue when the virus is very common, but in this community setting, it is statistically unimportant and so I have chosen to ignore it, better to focus only on false positives).”

    This is quite clearly a false assumption – the ONS are randomly testing in the population, whereas the Serco Pillar 2 tests are undertaken on either symptomatic, exposed, or potentially exposed individuals. So use of the 0.1% figure is completely misleading here, therefore casting doubt on subsequent conclusions drawn.
    A good analogy – say a randomised study showed that 1 in 10,000 people in Scotland owned a Saltire flag – that cannot then be extrapolated to say that 1 in 10,000 people attending an All Under One Banner march would own a Saltire – the AUOB attendees are obviously a selected group of the general population.”
    Hope this helps the discussions.

  162. Andy Ellis says:

    @John Digsby 4.41pm

    It’s a great mystery isn’t it? Cameron resists all attempts to get him to justify his egregious spamming of the BTL comments on this site, which frequently make it all but unreadable such is the volume and frequency of his cut and paste Google mining.

    Why Stu puts up with it I have no idea: it’s his site of course and he can do what he wants with it, but I sure as hell wouldn’t be letting a no-mark monomaniac like Cameron hijack any site I controlled in the same way. He’s simply parasitising Stu’s hard won popularity as a forum for his obsessive compulsive behaviour.

    The small percentage of his output that might be germane could quite easily be posted on his own site, where it might garner a few hundred views.

  163. CameronB Brodie says:

    John Digsby
    I’m trying to show folk the ‘physiology’ of the law and justice, though I’ve not looked at this stuff in a very long time. I might be a bit clumsy in my efforts, but I’m generally not far-off the mark and happy to respond to genuine queries. Though the constant hostility towards a position that is grounded in critical realism, ethical rationalism, and Naturalistic Moral Realism, is getting right on my tits.

  164. Bob Mack says:

    @James Che,

    Perhaps what you describe is what Cameron alludes to in his link.

    Disability is not always obvious to the human eye and certainly there appear to be long term effects in some “recovered” sufferers.

  165. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Gary45% (4.59) –

    Thanks for taking the time to consider the piece and respond to it.

    I suppose we’ll all find out the truth eventually, one way or another!


  166. CameronB Brodie says:

    Bob Mack
    Cognitive dissonance is the hidden disability that threatens the future of our democracy. That and our disgustingly Tory legal Establishment ;(

    The Nexus between the Right to Health and Public Health in the Context of International Human Rights Law

  167. Clydebuilt says:

    Sturgeon has accrued public confidence in her handling of the pandemic. Support for the SNP and Independence is at record levels.
    Removing her now will damage the outcome for the SNP in the May 2021 Holyrood election.

    Why not wait till after the election result is in the bag, then proceed.

  168. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Why not wait till after the election result is in the bag, then proceed.”

    Please don’t come on my website and ask questions you haven’t bothered to read the answers to.

  169. The best way to get rid of all the plants in the SNP is do not vote SNP it maybe shooting my selfe in the foot but it will be a change to the pains in my heart and my head

  170. Tannadice Boy says:

    Your leader lost me a long time ago. Read previous posts from Stu and Garavelli Princip. I don’t want the result in the bag. I want what I voted for, when the Scottish Parliament was established, a fair politically diverse Parliament taking all views into consideration. A Parliament that was clean and fair. This SG is more sleazy than the Major Tory Government.

  171. John Digsby says:


    Your continuous refusal to engage me on the question I’m asking rather than the question you want me to ask suggests you have no answer and certainly does not lend credence to your portrayal of someone with a developed sense of academic rigour.

    I don’t know what your alleged qualifications actually are, but I’m certainly tending to the opinion that you know no more about this than anyone else. Your tenuous links to academic amd semi-academic material do not address this apparent deficit.

    Further, if you can’t respond and engage with questions, your contributions can do little to educate anyone. An educator teaches and clarifies; they do not rule conversations by ad hominem and belittlement. If you can’t so this, or are not qualified to do so, then I suggest you find a better way of expressing yourself.

    Until you can engage with the substance of my comments and questions, rather than simply resorting to a plea that you are doing your best to educate (a claim that is manifestly untrue) then perhaps we should leave it there.

  172. shug says:

    What is happening with the Wings party

  173. A Person says:

    Big Jock at 3.20pm-

    Both good points.

    I don’t want to go too off-topic but suffice to say I am a talkative chap and it seems like “the man or woman in the street” is against a second lockdown, aware as they are of the long-term social consequences of doing so, and incredulous as they are of the weird discrepancy between measures and deaths (Wales is in near-complete lockdown, one person died last week). Nobody thinks we can all go back to “normal” just yet, but a second lockdown would be catastrophic; I’m quite a blase person but I do quite honestly fear something approaching societal collapse. So that, plus the refusal of Westminster to pay for one, is why I don’t think Nicola Sturgeon can impose a second lockdown. And I so feel that she wants one, partly to distract from all this.

    You are also correct that Sturgeon has pitifully little to show for her first ministership. Clement Attlee was prime minister for six and a bit years, and managed to completely transform Britain in that time despite being completely uncharismatic, disliked by much of his party, opposed by Churchill, and facing economic crisis. Sturgeon has been FM for about the same length of time, and what does she have to show for it? Free tuition and free prescriptions were achieved by her predecessors. Stuff like “built the Queensferry Bridge” are ludicrous, every country occasionally builds infrastructure, and its not as though she riveted the girders herself. How about she reformed land ownership? Her achievements amount to adulation from liberal opinion and endless wasted mandates- that’s all. What a bloody waste.

  174. John Digsby says:

    @Andy Ellis

    I was genuine in my attempt to understand, but I think you might be right!

  175. A Person says:


    Urgh. Yes, perhaps the (current leadership of) the SNP being exposed as Latin-American-dictatorship levels of corrupt will damage the SNP. And? Is that the extent of your aspirations for Scotland? Corruption, cronyism, and hypocrisy, same as it has been since the dawn of time in this country, but this time done with a Saltire and a Scottish accent rather than a Union Jack and an aristocratic drawl? “Meet the new boss, same as the old boss”. Is that how little the Scottish people are worth? Is that how little respect you have for us?

  176. CameronB Brodie says:

    John Digsby
    Perhaps I have reasons for answering you in the way that I do, and for the way that I introduce specialist knowledge into the debate? Though I’m apparently not doing a good enough job of communication my message. This I can live with as I’m simply a random on t’internet with access to a link machine, and not a highly paid civil servant. 😉

  177. Derek Rogers says:

    @Garavelli Princip, 4:39pm:

    “There is truly something rotten at the heart of the Scottish legal/political/civil service establishment. And in fact, this is the ONLY thing that makes me fear for the future of an independent Scotland.”

    Couldn’t agree more. Maybe we need to think about who our real opponents are.

  178. WhoRattledYourCage says:

    ‘John Digsby says:
    6 October, 2020 at 5:37 pm
    @Andy Ellis

    I was genuine in my attempt to understand, but I think you might be right!’

    There is nothing to understand. Anybody sure of their own intellect and credentials and qualifications would answer convincingly. Personally, I couldn’t care less about this. It’s just another net oddity. Shrug.

  179. Big Jock says:

    I would argue, that removing Sturgeon is actually essential if we want independence.

    As I said before. Who else gets 6 years to fanny about. Then asks for another 4 or 5 years based on that 6 year record.

    We should be independent by now. But we haven’t even secured a vote.

    How is it possible is my question?

  180. twathater says:

    @ Mike Fenwick 12.10pm YES Mike rather strange that the DR appears to be the one running tepidly with the Murrell excuse of “maybe I could have worded it better” and hutcheon’s proclivity to demonise ANYTHING Independence is also amply illustrated

    I have ALWAYS wondered at the SNP employment of the infamous VOW inventor and proponent, and his public announcement of his great awakening to the indy cause, would it be wrong of me to ASSUME he still has friends and colleagues employed by the Dire Redcoat

    It is surely incidental that the Dire Redcoat and it’s churnalist clegg were the ones who were LEAKED the info on the AS investigation and subsequent charges for which NO ONE has EVER been OUTED

    I may be wrong but I have a faint suspicion that the VOW inventor was employed as the press officer who was tasked with rebutting and refuting the lies and misinformation excreted on a daily basis by the egregious MSM, if that is the case has he been on the sick from the start of his employment

  181. Gary45% says:

    Ian Brotherhood@5.15
    No probs glad my other half could shine some light on the subject.
    A few “no voting” chums that I am involved with in other activist groups have never worn masks since the start, we heard at the weekend one of them is symptomatic awaiting a test result.
    I hope he’s fine, scary stuff.
    Big problem in the UK is we have never really had a proper lockdown, some say we did, just look at the EU countries that enforced the lockdown rules. Yes some will now argue France and Spain’s numbers are going through the roof just like Scotland’s, and obviously England’s figures a worse, when you eventually get to see them!
    No surprise we were all going in the right direction until the English school holidays started, then the EU and Scotland’s figures went in the opposite direction.
    If the Scottish Government impose a two week lockdown next week, then every motorhome from the south has to be sent packing. They are still rife in the Highlands.
    Seems to be the British mentality of “there’s a rule, how do we get round it?”
    Sure I’m getting peed off wearing a mask and gloves in shops etc, but if it helps get back to some sort of normality I’ll carry on doing so.

  182. CameronB Brodie says:

    In your rather narrow opinion, of course. 😉

    Naturalism and Moral Realism

  183. John Digsby says:


    Perhaps there is reason in why you do what you do, but unless it is to confuse and infuriate people trying to understand you, I’ll be buggered if I know what it is. 🙂

    I’m an engineer – not a civil servant!

  184. John Digsby says:


    Fair enough – back to the actual topic…

    I’m still not sure who would realistically replace Sturgeon if/when she falls. Is that why our MSPs refuse to act?

  185. kapelmeister says:

    In his speech to the virtual Tory conference – a conference for virtual Tories, does that mean Ian Murray was taking part? – Johnson says he wants to build “a new Jerusalem”….presumably in England’s green and etc etc.

  186. Ian Brotherhood says:

    It’s a great shame that no-one appears able or willing to support the ongoing ‘official’ narrative re the bug.

    Gary 45% is the only commenter on this thread who has made any effort at all to critically address the content of the ‘Fuellmich’ video posted this afternoon. It’s telling that several regulars who, back in April/May, moved swiftly to shut down bug-related questions, have been absent. (And the less said about CamB’s performance the better.)

    Despondency is deepening across the country as nights grow longer and yet more lockdown looms. Is there anyone trustworthy (who isn’t of the MSM/govt) who can explain why this nightmare just rumbles on and on? The last thing we need right now is a government using ‘national emergency’ as justification for staying in office when it is clearly unfit to discharge its responsibilities.

  187. Andy Ellis says:

    @John Digsby

    The only realistic alternative to the Sturgeonista leadership team is a thorough clear out. Boot out most if not all of the current NEC, ensure the replacements are elected by all the members not just delegates to conference, ensure robust procedures are in place to both answer and address complaints in a timely fashion, expel the Woko Haram entryists, and ensure a leadership team which is committed to pushing for the earliest possible independence vote, and which will take the fight to the British nationalists, not sit on their hands.

    Joanna Cherry is the only feasible candidate.

  188. CameronB Brodie says:

    John Digsby
    Sorry bud, I’m just a bit ratty today. There’s not really the space blt for me to go into any great detail, or give justice to the holistic nature of our situation. I’m also very rusty, so I’m doing what I can to share insight the Royal Town Planning Institute thought essential to maintaining open democracy, without overly compromising it by stroking my own personal opinion over the top of it. I’m not doing a particularly good job though, apparently.

    I do know a bit about this stuff, despite the efforts of some to rubbish my point of view.

    Rethinking Legal Realism: Toward a Naturalized

  189. Clydebuilt says:

    Big Jock at 5.59

    “I would argue, that removing Sturgeon is actually essential if we want independence.

    Fine remove her after the election. Why discard the public support before the election?

  190. CameronB Brodie says:

    I gave IB my critical opinion though it does not appear to fit the narrative he appears to support.

  191. Willie says:

    Black Mariah for Murrell methinks. In fact there could be a small fleet of them quite soon.

    And not a moment too soon!

    But how many will try the Nuremberg defence on their way down. Now that will be interesting. Keep up the good work Rev. Imelda Marcos and her hubby are heading for the door.

  192. Sarah says:

    @ John Digsby at 6.07: Joanna Cherry, Philippa Whitford, Mike Russell all have enough oomph to be party leader but it depends on party rules i.e. does the leader have to be a Parliamentarian?

    In a way Philippa would be best – non-controversial in party/public eyes and a clearly honest and trustworthy, caring, personality.

  193. John Digsby says:

    @Sarah – I guess to be FM they’d have to be in Holyrood?

    @Andy Ellis – I agree Joanna would be great, but it’s chicken and egg – the party needs the clear out first to get her into a position to stand. So we have to ditch NS first, so who replaces her in Holyrood as FM before the election?

  194. Dunadd says:

    Anyone know how many covid cases in the green and pleasant land in the last 24 hours? Can’t seem to find it.

  195. Skip_NC says:

    Sarah, I found a copy of the SNP Constitution from 2012 online. I have no idea if this is the most recent. Section 15.5(b) says “If the Leader is a Member of the Scottish Parliament, he or she shall be the leader of the Parliamentary group.”

    If this is the latest version of the constitution, there is no requirement for the Leader to be a parliamentarian.

  196. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Andy Ellis at 6:17 pm.

    You typed,
    “Boot out most if not all of the current NEC, ensure the replacements are elected by all the members not just delegates to conference”

    Yes, as a member, I agree with that. Why should ONLY delegates who can afford to attend conference get to vote for our ‘management committee’?
    A universal vote can be easily organised via email. That’s the DEMOCRATIC way forward.

  197. Mark Russell says:

    Gordon Dangerfield poses the following:

    “So again the questions arise:

    If it was Sturgeon’s own idea to suddenly remove herself from the complaints process for former Ministers, why did she do it?

    If it was not her idea, why did she go along with it?”

    I can think of one good reason why she would recuse herself from the process – perfectly obvious given the circumstances – but I guess we must exercise some patience until she explains for herself.

  198. Andy Ellis says:

    @John Digsby

    I’m doubtful there’s the time or appetite to change her before HR2021 elections sadly. Absent some political earthquake (…and, yes, I know…a week is a long time in politics etc.,….I’m just losing any faith it can happen any time soon) we have to wait until after the election.

    When it becomes obvious the Sturgeonista platform is moribund and no S30 is coming, there will have to be a reckoning. Since it looks like we’ve missed our chance of affecting any change in the coming election, it’s time to think of alternatives for the next available opportunity, which will likely be Westminster GE2024.

    I don’t really care who replaces her. I think Cherry is head and shoulders above any other likely incumbent.

    The necessity for an alternative “real” independence party becomes more pressing by the day. It’d be good if some like Salmond, Cherry etc jumped ship to form the core….but it needs to happen even if they stay IMHO.

  199. John Digsby says:

    @Andy Ellis

    You may well be right – I’m just sensing from the Rev’s recent posts that there’s a lot of revelatory material waiting to see the light of day, and that if it does then Sturgeon’s days are numbered. If that happens, it is going to mean a new leader from the current crop

  200. cynicalHighlander says:

    @Dunadd says:
    6 October, 2020 at 6:37 pm

    Anyone know how many covid cases in the green and pleasant land in the last 24 hours? Can’t seem to find it.

    14,542 New Cases.

  201. Sarah says:

    @ Skip_NC: thanks for tracking that down. If those are still the rules it is perfect – Philippa or Joanna could be leader, whilst NS still FM thus keeping all those new admirers on board. Or if NS has to go, well John Swinney is the Deputy FM so presumably would take over.

  202. Mac says:

    I think that mentally you have to let the dream of independence internally die before you can see what needs to be done I.e. The political annihilation of Nicola Sturgeon, her husband and every single one of the coterie of cunts she surrounded herself with.

    Let’s just do that and I have a feeling independence will find a way to get itself back on track all by itself.

    Don’t worry about independence. It has an intelligence and life of itself way beyond a few sellouts. Instead let’s focus on what we can do, destroying these rat fucks.

    It will be cathartic for the independence movement. Cleansing.

    One thing at a time folks. Now is the time to go for them. Clean out the festering wound before it kills us.

  203. Socrates MacSporran says:

    So, the FM is finding that the whole Covid thing is wearing her down.

    Might this be the first step in making a break before the Salmond stitch-up is fully-exposed – a case of jukmping before she is pushed?

  204. Mist001 says:

    I was right about Ferrier though. I said once the weekend was over, it would all be forgotten about.

    So when Mrs Murrell announces her lockdown fortnight, remember it only applies to some people, not everyone.

  205. Benhope says:

    CBB at 6.20.

    My biggest laugh of the day: (There`s not really the space btl for me to go into any great detail ). You have polluted most threads on this blogg for a very long time with your continuous junk that very few ever read.

    John Digsby has exposed your pathetic Royal Town Planning qualifications as total excrement.

    Why Stu has not deleted you from the blogg a very long time ago always surprises me.

  206. Muscleguy says:

    “The law can only serve the interests of justice, if it remains attached to practical science the Natural law. It does this by accommodating phenomenology, though Scots law is disabled from taking a phenomenological view.”

    Like John Digby I have a PhD in a numerate biological science. You strike me as someone afflicted by the little bit of knowledge being a dangerous thing phenomenon. Just word to the wise that passage above suggests to me that you are batshit insane and you have at your fingertips a load of words you think you know the meanings of and you’ve read a lot of stuff rather uncritically and think you understand them when you clearly do not.

    You sound like the Indy Campers trying int he court not to be evicted from Holyrood’s grounds. You seriously do. Natural Law? I’m a fucking Biologist and it means feck all to me. Which aspect of Naturel or Law do you think it pertains to?

    As for the existence of all the different laws you think exist, in reality they are just bits of other bills covering lots of stuff which practitioners in those areas rely on. The law as passed by parliament(s) and interpreted by the courts is rather messier than that.

    In curiosity have you ever actually read a parliamentary bill? It would appear from the distinctions you are trying to make that you have not.

  207. CameronB Brodie says:

    The workings of the SNP’s NEC, along with those of our government and judicial system, certainly hurts progress towards our goal. It does not undermine the natural justice of our cause though.

    The dynamics of moral progress

  208. CameronB Brodie says:

    I can justify my position through the law, can you?

  209. Mac says:

    I do apologize to various folks who have quoted me. Sorry I can’t reply. Will do when I can.

  210. Big Jock says:

    To those suggesting give Nicola the election and then remove her.

    That’s crazy talk. How do you unseat someone who has just won a possible majority? You need her punted before. Because we are all endorsing her leadership by voting her in as FM again.

    If she gets another term , she can dictate when Indy ref 2 is not happening. It would take another 3 years to prove she isn’t serious.

    We actually need our referendum in January, but June at the latest.

  211. Joe says:

    The trouble is that the implications of Covid being used fraudulently to achieve political and financial objectives on a global scale, utilising a massive coordinated effort that was to include the national military of countries to enforce ‘measures’ on a deliberately misinformed population is more frightening than the idea of a somewhat dangerous virus. In fact its justifiable that the average person would require an awful lot of evidence to be able to even take a good look at that possibility.

    However that evidence has started to come. Whether the utterly corrupt media will ever broadcast it properly I can’t say. One thing I do know is that the lawyer in the video we have seen would not be throwing his hat and career into the ring unless he knew he was on good ground and with significant back up.

    Thankfully we who have taken the frustrating task of trying to pry open the eyelids of our fellow citizens can take a breather, sit back a bit and let the professionals do the heavy lifting from here.

    This was a once-in-a-lifetime kind of situation that challenges people and you get to see what they are really made of. Im happy with myself. Im not sure everybody will be. Nor should they be.

    ‘What did you do when a sick cabal of psychopaths tried to maneuver humanity into giving up their rights grandpa?’

    ‘Well sonny, I made damn sure to wear my mask and fought hard to push the official propaganda against the guys who were brave enough to try to speak out against it.’

    Your D-day moment may well have come and gone with nothing to show except mindless complicity and a spine of jelly.

  212. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’d have expected better from someone with your background, though I imagine you’re not trained in how to use meta-ethics to design just law.

    Evolutionary Psychology, 2006. 4: 33-48
    The Anti-naturalistic Fallacy: Evolutionary Moral Psychology and the Insistence of Brute Facts

    The naturalistic fallacy and Hume’s ‘law’ are frequently appealed to for the purpose of drawing limits around the scope of scientific inquiry into ethics and morality. These two objections are shown to be without force. Thus two highly influential obstacles are removed from naturalizing ethics. The relative merits of moral skepticism and moral realism are compared. Moral skepticism and some forms of moral realism are shown to make similar recommendations for developing a science of moral psychology.

    Naturalistic fallacy, Hume’s law, moral psychology, ethics, moral skepticism, moral realism, ethical naturalism, evolutionary psychology, sociobiology.

  213. Muscleguy says:

    In another context I asked someone for evidence about something and in response i got a puff piece about two schools saying nice things. Which does not make the cut when it comes to being evidence.

    It appears it was found by online searching as you do and the being found and having the key words was enough. That would seem to be what you do and accounts for your evasiveness when asked to explain the relevance of it to what you are claiming.

    I have spent my professional life formulating search criteria to interrogate databases using Boolean logic. Believe me using Mr Google’s algorithms and natural language are in a completely different ball park. I not infrequently get very frustrated by it when trying to make it find things. I’m not alone in bemoaning that Google does not understand Boolean, quite deliberately it turns out. It’s a common problem. The journal Nature’s search function used to understand Boolean, it no longer does so. I expect they outsourced it.

  214. Bob Mack says:


    Were you a town planner or a University library?

  215. James Che. says:

    The covid topic may seem unrelated to those who only wish a narrow view and for us to stay pacifically on topic, but covid does in the background relate to the topic that Rev stu is talking about,
    If covid lockdown happens now until spring time let’s say, how far forward do you think anyone will be with investigations,, how covid can be used to hold back or hide Craig Murray’s court case,
    How excuses can be made under covid to say offices are under staffed, so they couldn’t get back to you.
    It could be used as an excuse for lack of transparency,
    For those reasons and personal financial reasons for all business, and wether anyone can put food on their table,
    would many on here be looking for a new job if they have been let go due to lockdown,
    Of corse we need to hear from all scientists not just a few chosen ones by governments so MSM dont aid or don’t blind side us,
    It is those who do not wish to investigate for themselves that worries me, it suggests they wish to follow main stream media, which we all say is not reliable information, or we follow uk government which again we often know does not stick to laws, it try’s to bend them.
    If after a thorough investigation and research you find you are of your same original opinion, fine.
    But do, do what Rev stu does, do all research first,

  216. CameronB Brodie says:

    I also doubt you’ve been trained in how to use phenomenology. So you’re on shaky ground attacking me. Mkay!

    Ethical Theory and Moral Practice volume 6, pages 241–264 (2003)
    Ethical Phenomenology and Metaethics

  217. CameronB Brodie says:

    Bob Mack
    This is the sort of stuff planers have to know before they get anywhere near a drawing-board. There’s no point in planning something if it’s not going to work, or will fall apart through stress. I’ve only started getting my footing, so watch this space. 🙂

  218. A Person says:


    Honestly he’s not worth it. It’s just words and a consistent invocation of his alleged knowledge of the law, despite the fact that he has no formal legal education. Just mindless bilge.

  219. Lorna Campbell says:

    Breastplate: I know that conspiracy means more than one person. My use of ‘someone somewhere’ was not meant to be taken as one person, you pedant, you. The only reason that I can see for the FM removing herself from the proceedings would be because it was Alex Salmond, her original running mate and her mentor, in the firing line. If she can show this to have been the case, she will survive, but she will be damaged by the revelation that political scrutiny at all appeared to be on the civil servants. That shows bad judgment, and not for the first time. However, if it was the case that the whole shebang was handed over to the civil service personnel with no governmental oversight, that in itself is deeply serious.

    If it was, indeed, the case that the penultimate procedure was okayed by one of the later women in the trial, who must, by implication, have been one of those, or the one, that he apologized to, and the apology was accepted at the time, and she went on working for him and with him, that is incredible in light of this admission that she was brought in to okay the procedure. That is akin to the police asking a witness to okay their line of inquiry or the prosecution letting a witness run the trial.

    How the hell did they think they could possibly get away with the kind of scrutiny this is being subjected to now? All I can think is that they were bloody determined, and believed, that Mr Salmond would, initially, be badly damaged by the civil case, then, when that failed, that he would be convicted in the criminal trial, and nothing would rebound on them. The whole retrospective nature, too, of the procedure was flawed and stupid.

  220. David Holden says:

    Random question . Does anyone read the posts and links from Cameron B Brodie and if so why . Not you Cameron.

  221. CameronB Brodie says:

    A Person
    You’re another who appears hostile to the defense of ethical legal reason. I don’t blame you, as contemporary politics is driven by a populist hostility to experts and practical science. So contemporary politics is hostile towards supporting authentic culture and natural justice.

    Journal of Critical Realism Volume 18, 2019 – Issue 3
    Introduction to the special issue: normativity

  222. John Digsby says:

    It’ll surprise noone to learn that town planners only need to understand planning law. Strangely the RTPI does not lost a requirement to understand anything more fundamental than that.

    But I agree with A Person that perhaps it’s just best ignored?

  223. J Galt says:

    Joe @ 8.07pm

    You’ve more or less nailed it.

    I think the absolute venom we get from the believers is because deep down they know we have a point, however they just don’t want to face the implications.

    Humour is a good tactic – as Oscar Wilde said “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they’ll kill you!”

  224. CameronB Brodie says:

    David Holden
    I’ve already studied this stuff in some depth, so I’m able to point folk towards knowledge of how to support social justice. I’m simply trying to share insight into this know-how in the least obtrusive manner I can think of. Though having to constantly defend myself from folk who claim to be my friend, is getting a bit wearisome tbh. I do enjoy taking down your random academic though. 🙂

    Synthetic Ethical Naturalism

  225. Muscleguy says:

    What the feck does that have any relevance to what i said? It also does not answer ANY of the questions which I raised. It appears to be a piece of whataboutery tied to an ad hominem argument.

    If you want us to take you seriously you are not going about it very well.

  226. Andy Ellis says:

    @John Digsby

    The problem with that is it doesn’t solve the problem of him spamming the BTL and diverting the threads. As you and others have noticed it doesn’t matter if the only reactions and interactions he gets are invariably folk pointing out he’s full of shit, he soldiers on with the Google mining.

  227. Terry says:

    Wikipedia keeping up with events.

    Peter Murrell
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Jump to navigationJump to search
    Peter Tierney Murrell (born December 1964) is the Chief Executive Officer of the Scottish National Party.[1] He is married to Nicola Sturgeon, the party’s leader and First Minister of Scotland.[2]

    1 Early life and education
    2 Career
    3 Personal life
    4 References
    Early life and education[edit]
    Murrell was born in Edinburgh in December 1964.[3][4] He attended Craigmount High School and studied at the University of Glasgow.[5]

    Murrell has been Chief Executive Officer of the Scottish National Party (SNP) since 1999 when he took over from Michael Russell.[1] Previously he had worked in the Banff and Buchan constituency office of Alex Salmond, who was former party leader.[6] The party’s success in the 2007 elections was credited to the organisation of Murrell.[7]

    Murrell was formerly the Company Secretary of Independence Merchandising Limited, a now-dissolved company that included as its directors SNP politicians Pete Wishart and Stuart Stevenson.[8]

    In January 2019 Murrell came under pressure to resign from Kenny Macaskill, former SNP Justice Secretary.[6]

    During the Inquiry of the Scottish Government handling of harassment complaints, a leaked document showed that Peter Murrell had pressurised Police in both Scotland and London to investigate Alex Salmond. As well as indicating that the more complainers Alex Salmond had to deal with then the harder it would be for him to defend himself. The document was confirmed as genuine (despite the SNP offering no comment) due to Police Scotland starting an investigation into how the document was leaked.

  228. John Digsby says:

    @Andy Ellis

    A fair point. Will just ignore from now on – try not to feed the troll, as they say

  229. Muscleguy says:

    I asked you for a definition of Natural Law, your definition, not a disquisition on moral psychology.

    As for not understanding phenomenology you have failed to explain to us what the feck relevance that has to anything. It’s just a fancy term for the study of something. I don’t think it can do the work you are trying to make it do.

  230. Alec Lomax says:

    Joe – more Icke nonsense.

  231. WhoRattledYourCage says:

    Camoron: gie it a rest. Permanently. Seriously. Cuckoo…

  232. David Holden says:

    When you get an incredibly boring troll the best solution is just to ignore it. If you suspect a troll just ignore it and it will either go away or come back in disguise. Don’t feed the troll.

  233. Keith fae Leith says:

    David Holden

    Yes, about 3 years ago I first read one of the theses linked to my oor Cam. That was when I first noticed him “commenting” every day on the threads, so tried to educate myself.

    The material linked to was a 97 page dissertation that took me 3 hours, 5 cans of red bull & a packet of pro plus to finish.

    The content so dry that a wrinkly old lizard would find the Sahara to be a tropical paradise.

    it had nothing to do with the topic, it had very little to do with the blurb provided by our educator & this was when he first declared (in my memory) of being a little bit rusty.

    Recently during the lockdown September I had a time on my hands, after a polite exchange explaining how people learn & the basic method of:
    1. Make a point
    2. Back it up
    3. Link it to the conversation

    I was lambasted with the same ire that tonight’s contributors have received.

    The following day, I counted that there were some 32 Comments with links in 12 hours from oor Cam, more without links.

    I went through those links, just to see an average page count & it was in the high 80s. If we’re allowed to extrapolate that (3 hours for 90 page * 32 theses) it would have taken me some 4 full days to read the knowledge imparted to us in a mere 12 hours.

    As I’ve said before, if you really know your subject matter, then you can explain it in layman’s terms to an early teenager.

    For the inevitable bite-back i would like to say categorically that I am not opposed to the Law, Ethics or Morality, i just do not see the benefit of what is posted when it is only the “author” who can understand it.

    I speak as a someone with BA & professional qualifications in the Accounting world (CA). I’ll await with pleasure any jokes others may have about an Accountant finding the reading to be dry & boring.

  234. Muscleguy says:

    In genetics there is the term linkage disequilibrium. It would seem to be an apt term to describe the phenomenology of how your links are rarely germane to anything under discussion.

  235. CameronB Brodie says:

    You appear to think I’d want to respond to you in a manner framed by your question. You also appear to think I can do justice to phenomenology in a btl comment. So I’m not sure if you’re actually the sharpest spoon.

    Ethical Theory and Moral Practice volume 20, pages 977–991 (2017)
    A Phenomenological Approach with Ontological Implications? Charles Taylor and Maurice Mandelbaum on Explanation in Ethics

  236. David Holden says:

    Trolling 101 get the punters to talk to you , about you or to waste your time reading the crap links they post. If you suspect a person is a troll just ignore them with no response or name checks. They either get bored and go away or get canned if they are doing it for money. Life is too short.

  237. Keith fae Leith says:

    Only 16 links in 7 hours.

    Hmmm is there a problem with the internet access?

  238. Clydebuilt says:

    Big Jock @8.03pm

    “How do you unseat someone who has just won a possible majority”

    Boris Johnson has (december 2019) a very large Majority, his neck is on the line from his party.

    If Sturgeon can be be removed as leader of the SNP before the May 2021 vote, she can be removed after it.

  239. CameronB Brodie says:

    So trying to defend the philosophy of science is trolling 101?

    European Review, Volume 22, Issue 51 (Basic Ideas in Science: The Concept of Law in Science)
    Natural Law and Universality in the Philosophy of Biology

  240. Muscleguy says:

    As Woke Philosophy shows the wilder zones of the academy can be populated by people with only a passing acquaintance with reason and science. The number of vanity publishing journals which have popped up with online publishing does not mean their contents are worth perusing, let alone paying attention to.

    I refer you to how Alan Sokal pranked the Post Modernists for a prime example of the genre from a couple of decades ago.

    So just because you have found some academic paper which you think backs you up it does not necessarily follow that it is anything more than a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing.

    That is why we invented review articles, critical analysis and meta analysis a la the Cochrane Collaboration. They exist because individual papers can only very rarely do the work you want them to.

    In writing academic papers the citations contained within often refer simply to the first occasion of a question being addressed. Occasionally these days a cluster of references is given giving a wider panoply in the point. This does not mean there is not a much wider and deeper literature.

    Some of the most cited publications in history relate to the method not the result or field it was used in, just the method. It means it is a widely used method, nothing more.

  241. Bob Mack says:

    Guy sits next to a man in a bar, and says”Do you want to hear a joke about Accountants”?

    The man replies “Before you tell that joke I must inform you that I am 6ft 2in and over 20 stone, and the bigger guy sitting next to me is also an accountant. Do you still want to tell your joke”?

    ” No” said the man, “I don’t want to explain it twice”
    Smiley thing.

  242. Tannadice Boy says:

    Let’s face it Nicola. You throw husband under a bus like many before him. Or not. Your indivisible of course. YOur call. You will go anyway.

  243. McDuff says:

    Sturgeon is not interested in independence not now or in the future.
    What does it take.

  244. David Holden says:

    God loves a trier. Ignore .ignore and ignore and if that fails ignore some more. Do not feed the troll.

  245. Asklair says:

    Scotland is a small country, been learning more about the internal running of the SNP, WoS is telling it how it is, very sad day for the SNP. Peter Murrell should do the right thing and retire fully from public duties and the SNP.

  246. Dan says:

    For aw the law addicts oot there, pure braw news for youse as there’s mair law stuffs goin on the morn.

    Implications of the Internal Market Bill for the rule of law in the UK.

  247. Balaaargh says:

    I’m trying to work my way through this Fuellmich video, and the claims are just wild! 94% of deaths in Bergamo weren’t from COVID but a seasonal cold and known sick people were shipped off to care homes?! Dafuq! “Only some hospitals in NY were overrun!” and “Old people rushed to the hospitals where they died of hospital related infections and doctor malpractice” He over-eggs research and sceptical opinion that doesn’t follow the panic line from some secret German document claiming that it fits his narrative. Not to mention the hype on how dangerous masks are.

    Then he gives a spiel about how it is real and can be serious and can result in death before he starts trashing it again, total lawyer response – if you believe him but die then you can’t say you weren’t warned so no payout from him! Speaking of payouts, he claims there are multiple cases where doctors are paid to put COVID on death certficates but the only source I could find for that was David Icke. He also talks about the inventor of the PCR test saying it can’t detect infectious diseases which is abusing the words of a dead man who isn’t around to refute it. That’s OK, an Aussie straight-talking virologist has a post here:

    He also goes on about German constitutional law which doesn’t hold because the UK doesn’t have one but he’s taking his class action to the US.

    From where I’m sitting, people have lost their heads. Chicken Little on both sides. I can’t wait to see his class action fail but no doubt that will be a further conspiracy.

  248. CameronB Brodie says:

    You appear to think the RTPI are a bunch of clowns, as I’m doing my best to faithfully articulate the approach to law they recommended for protesting democracy against science deniers, as well as exclusionary and authoritarian law. So care to tell me why I should deffer to your insufficiently informed perspective?

    Boston Studies in the Philosophy and History of Science
    The Concept of Scientific Law in the Philosophy of Science and Epistemology

  249. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

    Trump is lying again- no shocks.

    Drain the swamp my arse .He is the fucking swamp.Scunner of a man.

    Says 100,000 people die of flu in each flu season. Flu has never killed in US more than covid- NEVER EVER

    Covid has killed more people in 9 months
    than flu has in past 5 years in US.
    And that’s with flu having a vaccine-thank fuck.

  250. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Does anyone know why Linda Fabiani was angry about leaks from harassment committee private hearings? What was leaked?

  251. CameronB Brodie says:

    PROTECTING not protesting democracy.

    Human rights and natural law

  252. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I have just done a wee check on this thread.

    The REv posted it at 8.57am today.

    Between then and 2.37pm, there were 86 btl posts – at which point Cameron B Brodie made his first post.

    Between then and 9.50pm, there were 158 posts.

    29 of these were by Cameron B Brodie

    38 were either responses to CBB, or about him and his posts.

    This amounts to 42% of the btl posts.

    That is impressive trolling.

  253. paul says:

    CameronB Brodie says:
    6 October, 2020 at 7:59 pm

    I can justify my position through the law, can you?

    Please show what your position is in the various laws you present.

    If you present another internet citation, without justification or synthesis with the discussion started, I’m afraid I’ll have to continue to decline your didactic offers.

    As you so often say, you never make a good case for your insights.

    That someone, somewhere, has published something that might support you, does not mean you have any support for your claims.

    Give us a good solid argument, for whatever the fuck you are going on about, or have a rest.

  254. mags says:

    With everything that is going on with sturgeon and the party and her hell bent on destroying the economy with unlawful lockdowns as dictator and on a power trip, could a CrowdJustice be started on legal proceedings on criminal charges. Scotland will never go anywhere under sturgeon.

  255. CameronB Brodie says:

    How’s this for a starting suggestion for a basis of “just” law?

    A Companion to the Philosophy of Science
    Chapter 46
    Natural Kinds


    A central aspect of science is the classification of natural phenomena. Not only is this to some extent an end in itself, an account of what kinds of things there are being an important part of the picture of the world that science aims to provide. but classification is also inextricably connected with the development of scientific theories.

    The change from phlogiston theory to atomic chemistry, for example, involved not just a different theory but an entirely new way of sorting the domain of chemistry into kinds. It is often supposed that a necessary condition for an adequate or correct scientific theory is that its generalizations be formulated in terms of natural kinds – those kinds, roughly speaking, that really exist in nature.

    Thus oxygen, but not dephlogisticated air, may be said to mark a natural kind. Natural kinds are sometimes conceived precisely as being those kinds to which true scientific laws apply. In addition, natural kinds have generally been thought of as defined by the common possession of an essence, a property both necessary and sufficient for an entity to be a member of the kind, and from which the further important properties of the kind flow.

  256. Effijy says:

    Any idea how everyone in England could get a £5K grant
    But not applicable for Scottish home owners?

    Martin Lewis-

    The Green Homes Grant scheme, first promised in July, is now live. It can provide serious amounts of cash for home improvements such as insulation, double glazing and heating controls, which should improve a home’s energy efficiency, and its value. That’s the good news. The bad news is that the scheme has, in my view, systemic design flaws that will frustrate many. Our Green Homes Grant guide (incl my video briefing) will take you through it in detail, but here’s a quick summary…

    How the Green Home Grants Scheme works. Any homeowner or residential landlord in England can apply, apart from owners of as-yet-unoccupied new builds. There’s no easy parity in other UK nations, where most existing systems are mainly for those on benefits or with low incomes (for those see Scot, Wales & NI energy efficiency grants.)

  257. CameronB Brodie says:

    Socrates MacSporran
    I wouldn’t have to be so vocal if I wasn’t having to defend my point of view so much. The fact that I’m showing folk how to defend the rule-of-law appears to have escaped most. Including yourself, apparently.

  258. A Person says:

    I’m convinced CBB is one of the following:

    -a group of GCHQ employees sitting around a laptop in Cheltenham, howling about how much disruption they are causing to Wings


    -Nicola Sturgeon and Peter Murrell, using the laptop in the spare room at Bute House and similarly laughing

    Either way, credit where it’s due for inventiveness.

  259. paul says:

    There you go again, you demand others critique your picks.

    If it was a serious citation, it would take a substantial time to read,evaluate the sources and come to any sort of judgement.

    That is a responsibility we normally just to devolve to the academy.

    Unfortunately the academy is not to be trusted now, as it has removed itself to a lonely,supplicant desk in the office of oligarchy.

    Which is why you have an endless, and pointless, fountain of bullshit for you to refer to.

    Make your point from your sources, or just keep doing what you do.

  260. CameronB Brodie says:

    A Person
    You are wrong on all accounts, as I’m actually trained to use philosophy, science, and legal theory, to ensure folk gain access to due process in law and the potential to access justice. So your misrepresentation of me could actually be viewed as hostile and potentially harmful towards the interests of justice. So you could do with being a bit more open to ethically grounded legal opinion, IMHO.

    Laws and Natural Properties

  261. Breastplate says:

    Lorna Campbell,
    I’ve read enough of your posts to know you understand what conspiracy means, I posted the meaning of the word to bolster my own opinion that people should be under no illusion whatsoever that it was anything else.
    You did after all question the veracity of a conspiracy in your own comment and I think people should know that there is no doubt, no mistake, no misunderstanding and no misinterpretation. It was and is a conspiracy.

    I’m sorry if you thought I was indulging in pedantry.

  262. paul says:

    Sorry this was referring (6 oct 2020) to this:
    CameronB Brodie says:
    6 October, 2020 at 10:22 pm

    How’s this for a starting suggestion for a basis of “just” law?

    It’s not even a suggestion, let alone an argument.

    While I think the arena you choose to share your wisdom with, is hardly concerned with an anachronism like phlogiston, rather than standards of living or human dignity,no doubt their discomforts will rally them to what on earth you are indirectly trying to illuminate.

    Anyway, please keep telling people, someone cleverer than than themselves has written something of of no use to them.

    A bonus comfort will be that you were the only one to appreciate these very difficult insights.

  263. CameronB Brodie says:

    Do you want me to do your understanding for you as well?

    Meaning and Method in the Philosophy of Law

  264. Breastplate says:

    A Person,
    CBB is a real person much the same as anybody else here who is right about some things and wrong about some things.

  265. Tannadice Boy says:

    @CameronB Brodie
    Don’t take all the bandwidth. You know I like some of your posts but I can’t read them all. We have a very interesting situation here. Corruption is afoot. Save your energy for what is to come. I have held onto information since 2015 so one senior person of the SNP will resign and have their collar felt. And another legal case to be pronounced. Hold fire! Save your machinations.

  266. Breastplate says:

    Ian B,
    Maybe she has been informed that there’s something about to be published?

  267. CameronB Brodie says:

    I am sorry for being so noisy, as I’m honestly not the pushy kind. I am aware that I can’t speak for anyone but myself, though I’m trained to support and advocate for justice. So I just feel that I need to defend my point of view, which is geared towards ensuring the most vulnerable gain access to justice. My bad. 🙂

  268. paul says:

    CameronB Brodie says:
    6 October, 2020 at 11:00 pm

    Again you present a citation in place of a discussion, let alone an argument.

    Your characteristic responnse of a homebrew of ad hominen and argumentum ab auctoritate does not convince me you act in good faith.

    Meaning and Method in the Philosophy of Law

    Do you want me to do your understanding for you as well?

    Not at all.

    I might not have your magnificent and prolific confidence in yourself, but I am confident in mine.

    While I know you never actually say anything, feel free to enlarge my understanding.

    No citations allowed, only wonderful insights.

  269. ElGordo says:

    @ A Person at 10:37 pm

    I’m convinced CBB is one of the following:

    -a group of GCHQ employees sitting around a laptop in Cheltenham, howling about how much disruption they are causing to Wings


    -Nicola Sturgeon and Peter Murrell, using the laptop in the spare room at Bute House and similarly laughing

    Every link posted and clicked on first registers your IP and then installs tracking cookies, that remain active, communicating your web activity until cache is cleared.

    The sites that have an accept button (if you ever read the T&C’s which most don’t), on acceptance then launch code to trawl the contents of your hard drive.

    Locating and scanning emails firs, then documents. This information is then harvested remotely, the longer the article = the longer you spend reading it, the more personal information obtained. Once the web page is closed the trawling is disabled.

    This has been going on for years, and surprised that to date no one has been Alert to this.

  270. ElGordo says:

    @ A Person at 10:37 pm

    I’m convinced CBB is one of the following:

    -a group of GCHQ employees sitting around a laptop in Cheltenham, howling about how much disruption they are causing to Wings


    -Nicola Sturgeon and Peter Murrell, using the laptop in the spare room at Bute House and similarly laughing

    A little bit worse unfortunately.

    Every link posted and clicked on first registers your individual IP and then installs tracking cookies, that remain active, communicating your web activity until cache is cleared.

    The sites that have an accept button (if you ever read the T&C’s which most don’t), on acceptance then launch code to trawl the contents of your hard drive. These are targeted information capture links that are posted, with a lot of code behind them.

    Locating and scanning emails first, then documents. This information is then harvested remotely, the longer the article = the longer you spend reading it and engaged on the pate, the more personal information obtained. Once the web page is closed the trawling is disabled.

    This has been going on for years, and surprised that to date no one has been “Alert” to this.

    Hats off to the prof!

  271. A Person says:


    I may be wrong about lots of things, which is why I (like almost all visitors to this valuable site, other than a handful of obvious trolls) usually limit myself to one or two comments on each article here, usually connected to the article topic or to comments made by other users, and try to listen respectfully to others’ feedback. I do not contribute over a third of posts, talk incomprehensible nonsense, attach links to academic articles that I could not possibly have read, or throw insults at other users who criticise my comments.

  272. Lizg says:

    Cameron B Brodie 11.20
    What qualification have you gained in this training was the question Cameron?

  273. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m too rusty to articulate a particularly informative or comprehensive legal commentary on the hoof. That’s why I’m linking folk to the source of my opinion, so that you have the opportunity to examine my logic at your leisure, while also developing a deeper understanding of our circumstances. I appreciate how arrogant that might sound, but that is what I’m trained to do. Design public policy and advocate for a sustainable, equitable, socially just, political economy.

  274. A Person says:

    -El Gordo-

    Don’t worry, I have never clicked.

  275. paul says:

    So I just feel that I need to defend my point of view, which is geared towards ensuring the most vulnerable gain access to justice. My bad. ?

    Big fail on both points, you pour abuse on those whose disagree with you and I have yet to see how anyone has been aided towards justice by your efforts.

    Perhaps you could cite your efforts in this area rather than citing anything from our broken academy that suits you.

    You complain you have not practiced/been involved yet you pass on any old rubbish without comment.

    You ask forgiveness for your lack/reduction of ability.

    But then you rail (you never argue, its insult plus citation) against people who do not give a fuck about hermeunetic existentiality.

    Your whole life is to make people scroll less.

    I hope it’s a good one.

  276. CameronB Brodie says:

    I only have a BSc in Town Planning, though don’t hold that against me, and I wouldn’t under-estimate it’s potential either. 😉

  277. Ruglonian says:

    Can I suggest that everyone who’s been frustrated, yet again, by our learned friend use the Contact page to inform Stu.

    There are rules to posting btl and the usual “don’t feed the troll” hasn’t worked for the past several years now!

    To our would-be educator: I hear that btl on WGD is currently the place to be. Why not try and find a more receptive audience there, as you’re obviously not hitting your desired target here. Best of luck.

  278. CameronB Brodie says:


  279. A Person says:


    Point taken. I will leave this thread. Sorry I just find the arrogance and selfishness so frustrating.

  280. CameronB Brodie says:

    Seriously folks, if you’re hostile towards those who would helped you through the maze of post-truth politics, then you’re probably beyond saving.

  281. ElGordo says:

    Don’t leave, you’re a person too

  282. CameronB Brodie says:

    You appear to have a problem with those who advocate for “just” law. Am I correct in my analysis?

  283. paul says:

    CameronB Brodie says:
    6 October, 2020 at 11:51 pm

    Seriously folks, if you’re hostile towards those who would helped you through the maze of post-truth politics, then you’re probably beyond saving.

    I think that is a terrible thing to say about people,curious about justice and democracy, who just can’t be bothered with the kind of useless, negating bullshit you have to offer.

    No doubt there’s some academic toilet paper you’ll find to ignore that reality.

  284. Ruglonian says:

    A Person – don’t leave. I didn’t suggest that anyone should leave. This place is supposed to be an open place for all to discuss the issues of the article posted. I’m sure I’m not alone in wishing it would be able to function more as it should!

    My suggestion was to inform Stu of the disruption because it’s his site and it’s up to him what is tolerated.
    There’s no point in any of us trying to deal with this anymore imo as all previous efforts, and methods of, have proven futile.

    Cameron – you are not correct. To hear you accept that would be a major step forward from you. You seem to be framing every interaction with you on your own narrow terms and it constantly ‘allows’ you to miss the points being made.

  285. Dave Somerville says:

    Tomorrow’s National twitter,,,

  286. Beaker says:

    @AYRSHIRE ROB says:
    6 October, 2020 at 10:01 pm
    Trump is lying again- no shocks.
    “Drain the swamp my arse .He is the fucking swamp.Scunner of a man.”

    There was a programme tonight on BBC4 about the Mississippi (spelling?). According to the narrator, it contains the biggest swamp in the USA.

    Methinks they need to update that… 🙂

  287. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m delighted I’m wrong, I just thought you were having a pop at me. That does appear to be acceptable practice btl. Sorry.

  288. Mist001 says:

    Hey. Mrs. Murrell is insanely popular with the media, especially down south so what about if her master plan is to eventually defect to a UK party, Labour perhaps?

    She wouldn’t be the first Scottish prime minister of the UK and the way they fawn over her, she’d be a shoo-in for the Prime Ministerial position.

    Destroy her opposition in Scotland from within, take independence off the table then make the switch. If she has ambitions, Scotland’s too small to satisfy them.

    I’d be shocked, but not surprised.

  289. Ruglonian says:

    Just saw this – would like to hear what people think about it 🙂

    “Inquiry to reveal text messages between Sturgeon and Salmond”

  290. A Person says:


    Oh crikey!

  291. Ruglonian says:

    Apologies for the broken link – how many years have I been failing to post properly now? 😀

    Cameron – your initial response was irrelevant. Your analysis is not correct because I wasn’t talking about your content, I was talking about your disruptiveness.

    Anyway, we have something to discuss: what’s in the whatsapp’s!!!

  292. ElGordo says:

    This stood out:

    Submissions from Peter Murrell, the SNP chief executive who is married to Ms Sturgeon and Liz Lloyd.

  293. Balaaargh says:

    @El Gordo,

    Chromium based browsers – which is pretty much all of them these days – have an option to clear the cookie cache every time you close the browser. Meanwhile, an investment of about £40 will buy you a Raspberry Pi which you can run as a Pi-hole. Effectively, a local DNS resolver which blackholes requests to ads, tracking, OS telemetry and known malware sites making the Internet a much more enjoyable place.

  294. ElGordo says:

    Also this:

    An SNP spokesman said: “Mr Murrell has fully addressed matters in his written evidence to the committee. The leaked extracts of his text messages have been deliberately taken out of context and are intended to misrepresent events.”


    Surely this should read SNP spokesperson! Scandalous.

  295. ElGordo says:


    I use firefox and also run CCleaner after every “movement”. Have VPN but don’t switch it on as often as i should.

    But it’s never enough.

  296. A Person says:

    I have never seen or heard as much fear and anger about a government policy as I have over the second lockdown which is supposed to be announced tomorrow. We are looking at mass unemployment. NS says she entered politics because she was appalled by Thatcher; turns out this was because the Iron Lady didn’t make enough Scottish people unemployed.

    To have revelations this damaging come out on the same day is…sub-optimal for her, put it that way.

  297. CameronB Brodie says:

    A Person
    I appreciate there are ancillary health costs, but how can we get on top off this if we place economic expediency over the interests and principles of good public health management?

    Do you really want to place responsibility for our public health in the hands of the private sector, with a deadly pathogen aboot? Do you think business generally willing and able to comply with H&S?

  298. Hatuey says:

    “… The Times revealed its plans to hire a QC to meet the legal firepower being used by the government, the SNP and Mr Salmond.”

    And that’s significant. The Times will have its own slant, of course, the usual pro-Union Rule Britannia crap, but the more attention all this gets, the better.

  299. Hatuey says:

    Balaaaargh; ” the only source I could find for that was David Icke”

    And what’s wrong with David Icke as a source?

    If it wasn’t for him we’d all be going around completely unaware that the world was run by shape-shifting lizards from outer space.

  300. Hatuey says:

    Mist: “she’d be a shoo-in for the Prime Ministerial position.”

    Seems like everyone is going a bit crackers tonight. Except me.

  301. Hatuey says:

    CameronB Brodie: “I have a BSc in Town Planning”

    Everything is starting to make sense.

    If we ever need help planning a town, we know who to call…

  302. CameronB Brodie says:

    I wasn’t anything special and have very limited professional experience, but I was trained in how to ensure the most vulnerable gained access to due process in law, along with the potential to access justice and the benefits of democracy. It’s just taken me a while to remember how to do that, and I’m still not quite there yet.

    I’m definitely not responsible for the illogical traffic management arrangements where you live though. 🙂

    The Philosophy of Legal Change
    Theoretical Perspectives and Practical Processes

  303. Kenny says:

    ElGordo says:
    7 October, 2020 at 12:28 am

    The leaked extracts of his text messages have been deliberately taken out of context and are intended to misrepresent events.

    ‘deliberately taken out of context’ – that context being about as wide-ranging as a couple of atoms.
    ‘are intended to misrepresent events’ – a soundbite that portrays Murrell as being in the dock, defending charges.

    Fighting talk, whilst on the ropes and receiving damage, looks like Murrell won’t be getting the last word on this case.

  304. Beaker says:

    @Hatuey says:
    7 October, 2020 at 1:06 am
    “Mist: “she’d be a shoo-in for the Prime Ministerial position.”
    Seems like everyone is going a bit crackers tonight. Except me.”

    Considering yourself to be sane is a form of insanity… 🙂

  305. Hatuey says:

    Beaker, probably true too. But not all crackpots are equal and suggesting that Sturgeon could be PM puts you up there with the best of them.

  306. Gary says:

    Ultimately all of the messages will end up in the public domain. Those in the press who had previously thought the talk of a conspiracy to be unimaginable are all unionists and this fit with their world view. Now that they discover there is mileage in battering the SNP with this they have become believers all of a sudden.

    Whatever anyone thinks I believe, as there’s no evidence to support anything either way, that Evans instigated all of this and brought Sturgeon in after misleading her as to the the veracity of the complaints. You’d perhaps have to ask yourself why she, Evans, felt so strongly that she had to ‘get’ Salmond. She is, after all, a Civil Servant and not a political figure. I fear she had her own motivations which have, in a roundabout way, still been fulfilled as the reputational damage to the SNP could impact on support for independence. This is the kind of dirty trick much beloved of MI6, remember what they did to Craig Murray?

    However, I think (and hope) that support for independence is past the tipping point. In a literal sense it is, now being consistently over 50%.

  307. MaggieC says:

    Ian Brotherhood @ 10.01 pm

    I found this and the way I read it could it have been one of the Committee that confirmed that the leaked WhatsApp messages were true ? ,,holyrood-harassment-committee-disappointed-and-angry-over-information-leaks

    We might get a better idea of what is going once further evidence is published ,

    I just heard on Radio Scotland that it’s Nicola Sturgeon and Peter Murrell’s evidence that’s to be published today .

  308. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @MaggieC –

    Cheers, that’s good to know.


  309. Alf Baird says:

    Personally speaking I find Cameron’s contributions extremely witty and insightful, and his interpretation of events and issues debated on this site often at a deeper level from the norm. He is also very good at identifying ringers, and usually before anyone else does. Moaners aim seems to be to divert discussion from the matter at hand raised by Rev Stu and maybe reflects their own personal unhappiness. It is also not nice seeing a group of individuals gang up against an individual just because they are ‘different’ in some way or another. I think that’s called discrimination, if not worse.

  310. Gregor says:

    Looks like USA will be provided full State transparency:

    “I have fully authorized the total Declassification of any & all documents pertaining to the single greatest political CRIME in American History, the Russia Hoax. Likewise, the Hillary Clinton Email Scandal. No redactions!”

  311. Achnababan says:

    well said Alf!

  312. J Galt says:


    We’re all “crackers” are we.

    I would suggest that someone who thinks that putting a non medical mask on to walk 15 feet from a door to a table in a pub, then sitting down taking the mask off and laughing and joking with a pal for a couple of hours, then donning said mask again to walk 15 feet to the door, is not an absurdity is seriously “crackers”!

    And please we’ve had the “Icke!”, “Lizard People!” shite already ta.

  313. Bob Mack says:


    You conveniently miss two important points in your summary.

    Firstly Murrell admits his messages were accurate. He was extolling putting pressure on Alex, not Evans.

    Secondly the policy was requested by Nicola not Evans.

    You have to deal with those points.

  314. Big Jock says:

    Alf – I have never been fond of the pile on’s that go on in here sometimes. Even if someone might be a troll. Just ignore them.

    Sure have a reasonable debate, or even a rammy , but the dog fights don’t make anyone feel any happier. Been nearly bitten a few times , that’s when I just move onto the next subject.

    Can’t be arsed with personality clashes.

  315. Big Jock says:

    So Murrell regrets the texts were taken out of context ,but not the content!

    ” The more pressure on him the better” Not sure in what context that can be read as anything other than “get the bastard”.

  316. Ottomanboi says:

    The ageing elephant in the room politicians do not appear to see.
    With a fanatically pro-abortion ie anti-child mentality can you wonder.
    That and the Covid death cult too…..not a country for young people.

  317. Effijy says:

    Headline for the Civid Death Stats shows that today Peru will be the second country
    To have 1 Covid Death per 1,000 of its population.

    First of course is the real, Excess Death figures for Bojo’s England.

    The worlds most expensive spread sheet and the world leading Track
    & Trace App of course has aggravated their plight.

    If you missed it yesterday, one of the track and trace operators blew the whistle
    On only making 3 calls in a matter of weeks and one contact refused to acknowledge the
    Call as data protection refused to name the person they say he was in contact with.

    All those salaries wasted to give the appearance that a Track & Trace actually exists.

    On TV now- English Cricketer Ian Botham becomes a Lord and sits in the Tory All Inclusive Nursing
    Home called the House of Lords.

    He and the rest of the parasites can go for a Duck as far as I’m concerned.

  318. Dave Somerville says:

    Big Jock

    Don’t be a fuckin hypocrite.

    You don’t believe in “Pile on’s” ???

    Utter crap.

    You and that fuckin alcoholic bastard Lizg
    got wired into a single poster the other night,,,and you were probably hoping more would pile in,,,but it never happened.

    So don’t give us the “hollier than thou” shite.

    You are no different to anybody else, and stop trying to make out you are.

  319. Big Jock says:

    As I said …trolls are best ignored.

  320. Ottomanboi says:

    What many have suspected all along.
    Global capitalist World Economic Forum ‘Reset’ is making the mega rich even richer…..screw the rest….you saps!
    Sturgeon and Johnson two peas in the same cosy capitalist pod.

  321. Big Jock says:


    1.The projection of attitudes, wishes, desires, libidinous and aggressive thoughts to another party.

  322. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Glad I’m retired, I just checked, CBB put-in a 12-hour shift yeaterday (well 10 hours 49 minutes actually,) between his first and last offering.

    They are clearly driving the troops hard at GCHQ and 77 Brigade these days – I think maybe the independence movement has them worried.

  323. Republicofscotland says:

    “Private Whatsapp messages between Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond will be made public today as part of an investigation into the Scottish Government’s unlawful pursuit of the former First Minister.

    A tranche of evidence will be published by the Holyrood inquiry into the botched process, which cost the taxpayer more than £600,000 in legal fees.”

  324. Dave Somerville says:

    Big Jock

    Don’t try to be a smart arse bastard with me.

    You and your wee alcoholic pal, Lizg, were about to pile in to a single poster the other night.

    So don’t geez yer pish ya Dick.

  325. Big Jock says:

    The Tories are now trying to capture the student vote , by agreeing with zero tuition fees. Ross Dross clearly thinks there are plenty of posh St Andrews and Edinburgh yoony students, who are peed off at the Covid -19 shambles.

    Think about it. St Andrews has a massive English student population, and so does Edinburgh. They are registered to vote in Scotland. He knows that no Scottish students will vote for his pile of crap party.

  326. Republicofscotland says:


    Who the hell does Keir Starmer think he is, apart from the millionaire knight of the Realm leader of Labour, a party that’s meant to be a socialist party, don’t make me laugh.

    Starmer, is to speak to constituents of Margaret Ferrier, this is of course an attempt to win the constituency over to Labour, a party that is now seen as insignificant in Scotland.

    Starmer would do better to keep his own house in order, with first dealing with constituents of Jeremy Corbyn, who admitted attending a dinner that had more than the permitted amount of people allowed at it.

  327. Big Jock says:

    Yes I read that.

    Talk about cynical manipulation of a situation. 5000 majority in Rutherglen. They clearly think they can win a bi-election. I think Ferrier might just hang around. Why is she any different to Cummings or Corbyn or the other Tory MP who turned up at WM with Covid.

  328. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Big Jock –

    A bi-election?

    Is that one where all the votes are trans-ferable?


  329. Breeks says:

    Big Jock says:
    7 October, 2020 at 8:29 am

    So Murrell regrets the texts were taken out of context ,but not the content!…

    Yes Big Jock, don’t take these comments out of context. Never forget the context of these comments was internal and secret group communications between malicious conspirators seeking to orchestrate false accusations against Alex Salmond to destroy his political career, see him jailed as a sex offender and his reputation trashed.

    That is the context of these remarks, remarks which State and Establishment has tried it’s hardest to prevent becomming public knowledge.

    Let us NEVER see Murrell’s comments tahen out of context.

  330. Big Jock says:

    Ian – It’s a gender fluid constituency LOL.

    That always sounds like something you wouldn’t want to find on a bus seat.

  331. Alf Baird says:

    I find Frantz Fanon’s (1967 Penguin) postcolonial reflections highly informative. Basically the dominant National Party reaches an ‘accommodation with colonialism’. That’s the present SNP’s ‘pampered’ elite as it becomes part of the (colonial) establishment. The more radical nationalist elements are ridiculed and smeared, imprisoned, or worse. That’s AS, MacAskill, McEleny, MacNeill etc. Intellectuals shed light on the matter, today this is more the role of so-called ‘bloggers’ – Stu, Craig, and others (writers, artists, etc) and many of the contributors who gather there. As the political battle ensues the ‘mother country’ are increasingly active in terms of underhand tactics across a wide spectrum. The tide turns when the mass of the natives begin to understand what is going on, when light is shed on who is doing what to whom etc, bribery, deceit within the National Party etc. New nationalist leadership and new parties come into play, usually led by those who have proved their loyalty to the cause, through colonial persecution, imprisonment etc. This or a similar process plays out in many decolonisation instances, according to Fanon. Its a kind of template. Scotland seems little different. The lumpen proletariat usually has a decisive role, as they tend to be the most impoverished and oppressed group and have the greater impetus for liberation, also holding to a higher level of ‘national consciousness’, less so the ‘workers’ (those whose salaries are one way or another paid by the state) and have a vested interest in not rocking the boat.

    So, either the ‘radical elements’ take over the National Party or they start new ones.

  332. Monsieur le Roi Grenouilleverteetprofonde says:

    Let’s return to some basicsThe very first paragraph of the post states that the release of the court documents is not illegal.If one reads the Dangerfield blog, it does appear that there is precedent,(sheridan case) and a firm judgement that the legal position is not defensible in the case where it has been shown there has been dishonesty in testimony.

    My recollection of the AS case is that there was a straight contradiction of one of the AS charges(the most serious one). There was apparent perjury or an egregious, inexplicable error at several layers of the process. i.e. the complainant stated the wrong day the alleged attempted rape took place.This error or fabrication cannot be dismissed. To do so makes a mockery of the Scottish legal system.How is it possible that the police , Copfs could make such an elementary error in their enquiry into such a deeply sensitive and controversial case.
    If it was not so serious it would be laughable.
    I think we should focus on this huge anomaly, because it is the key to unlocking the greater story.
    I think the matter will have to be aired thoroughly through an open judicial or quasi judicial process.An action by AS for defamation or malicious testimony might be another way.
    The Holyrood enquiry is being stalled, apparently deliberately, by key individuals.
    Of course there is always the possibility that an outcome might be not what a lot of the purist ‘independente’ that inhabit this blog site would want.My own suspicion is that no one would come out of this with credit. The rather unstable equilibrium we see here indicates that truth may lie on some uncomfortably narrow knife edge, where a wrong move(hence the hesitation) could lead to a desperate fall astride the blade.
    My sense of this issue is that the me-too movement emboldened a renewed spirit of more militant feminism looking to find a remedy to the unarguable inequably gendered political power relations, a Scottish equivalent to the Weinstein/Epstein scandals It isn’t a secret that individuals(mostly men) abuse power for sexual or other benefits.One might also reasonably suggest that women are not above abuse of power.I think by the same token women exploit sexuality, to acquire status, money position and benefits. Can it be a mere coincidence that one of the women was looking for an endorsement for her ambition to become an MSP and her motivation may have been shaped by the scorning of her ambition.
    I also sense that AS, not unlike a lot of men, pushed his luck in sexual matters. Power, ego intelligence and confidence are undoubtedly appealing attributes and AS seems to have had some charisma. Political circles are often quite charged by ambition, drive, adrenalin, and urgency and even in the most unlikely individual circumstances (Major and Currie) such matters can flow beyond the normal limits of propriety.
    My ‘guess’ is that the circumstances here are not favourable to either of the protagonists(i.e. the ‘me too’ women, and AS. Alex Salmond may well have been led by his penis brain at times but the attempt by the women to punish him in the way they chose(forming a coven of self-appointed female sisterhood, motivated by indignation and spite) was utterly improper and misguided.The criminal process was completely ill-judged and one has to wonder at the perspicacity(or lack thereof) of the police and legal establishment that allowed itself to be dragged into this unbecoming squabble, compromising the values which are integral to their functioning.The ineptitude revealed here has led a lot of people to infer that there must be outside manipulation to explain the risible failure to understand the fuller picture.Personally I think that is unlikely.As usual, cock-up ,not fit-up is the explanation.I wish the whole thing could be discussed openly with the women revealing themselves and accepting error or criticismEventually it will be in their own interest to do so, so that they can move on from an affair that will define and blight the rest of their lives.

  333. Robert Graham says:

    A few posters have commented regarding their distaste about comments made re CBB

    With all due respect , and you probably realise what is going to follow.

    The only reason I had a go at CBB yesterday was , up until now I was perfectly Happy scrolling past the endless links he continues to post , However Inferring everyone apart from his Intelligent self is stupid leaves him open to some kind of comment.

    I have studied this, I have studied that, I have been trained in this I have been trained in that , I have a Legal background , I am attempting to Educate you , all inferring stupidity on the part of whoever he was lecturing , not Educating Lecturing ,

    If The Highly Intelligent Endless Linkman is so enlightened he might understand at best the links are not really relevant to a political debate and at worst they are repetitive tedious and pointless , I think this the first time I have made a comment on the endless post links , I have seen many comments regarding his posts and comments that he totally fails to address .

  334. Big Jock says:

    Robert- I don’t read the links either. They are mainly off topic as well.

    However I don’t know if any harm is meant by them. Or is that me being naïve?

  335. Fionan says:

    I have only once previously commented on CBBs spamming, and generally just scroll past. IMHO he is playing a psychological game clearly described by Eric Berne in his various writings on the Transactional Analysis that he developed.

    CBB posts his links with comments which suggest that Wings followers are poorly educated, uninformed and ignorant, and need educated by him as he has superior education and training. He deliberately uses dense language to obscure what he is actually saying as it is often quite pointless and not particularly relevant to the OP or to the discussion. This is done deliberately, if perhaps subconsciously, to trigger/hook other commenters to try to point out his arrogance and the effects of his links in rendering discussions hard to follow. He is fishing for any reaction which gives him an excuse to abuse others, boast and misdirect from the actual topic. When the justifiable anger comes, he has won, he has attracted attention to himself and achieved an interaction, negative though it is, and he then backs into his safe space, pleading that he is only trying to help others, promote ethics etc, and this tends to halt the angry response while attracting some sympathy from neutral readers – more attention and strokes for his ego (TA terms apply).

    Now before he attacks me as being ignorant and knowing nothing of the law or biology or whatever as he did last time: I studied Law at Aberdeen University; I have two BSC Hons in Pharmacology (which includes brain chemistry and how it relates to behaviour) and in psychology; a Masters degree by research in Clinical Biochemistry; a post-grad cert in research methods which in CBBs words ‘has trained me to critically analyse’ studies and publications; I have published my own systematic review and meta-analysis in a peer-reviewed journal; and I am now studying my fourth degree, which is unrelated to this topic, being in modern languages and culture. I have also successfully completed a number of modules in subjects as diverse as economics, social sciences, analytical chemistry, land management and others, sufficient if I so wanted, to earn me a 5th degree BA. So, CBB, you are NOT the fount of all knowledge and you are far from being the most or only person, here btl, educated in what you have so arrogantly taken on yourself to try to force feed us all, poor ignorant vulnerable creatures that we are. Nor do you have the right to impose your definitions and types of ‘education’ on the rest of us, uninvited and unwelcome as these are. You don’t have the right to determine our needs, and you don’t have the right to try to redeem us through your invaluable ‘help and education’. And you have absolutely NO self-awareness whatsoever. You couldn’t even recognise that one of your biggest ‘fans’ here was actually ripping the pish out of you.

    Your spamming is disruptive, it spoils the discussions and debates here, which are important, and it wastes the time of most of the readers here, who, qualifications or not, can actually assess ‘stuff’ perfectly well for themselves and don’t need a lot of big word waffle or obscure ‘expert’ opinions to do so. And where people do want to know more of some point or other, they are perfectly able to ASK!

  336. Ruglonian says:

    Pile on?

    We see you, and we know what you’re up to.
    This place belongs to all of us, so don’t think that this tactic is a winning one!

    Just because some of us have other demands on our time so can’t post here in such a domineering way doesn’t mean that we’re conceding the space to those that have the luxury of spamming it up with their crap all day long.

  337. IndyP says:

    I wouldn’t be a surprise to learn that they’re already gone.

    Craig Murray & Joanna Cherry QC – both highly intelligent, well respected individuals well versed in law, with a connection to Salmond. Can’t think for the life of me why some would prefer to see their influence in Scottish politics diminished.

  338. Ron Maclean says:

    ‘ As the political battle ensues the ‘mother country’ are increasingly active in terms of underhand tactics across a wide spectrum.’ (Fanon, 1967 Penguin)

    CameronB Brodie? Who knows?

  339. CameronB Brodie says:

    I see there are still those btl who fail to recognise practical help when they see it. This is probably why the Toriea and now the SNP find it so easy to take the piss out of Scotland.

  340. Clydebuilt says:

    McDuff says:
    6 October, 2020 at 9:46 pm
    Sturgeon is not interested in independence not now or in the future.
    What does it take.

    Get rid of her then. But not before the Holyrood election!

  341. Saffron Robe says:

    Apologies – I have made a correction:

    So Mr Murrell regrets his wording but not his intent? I wonder how much was paid to expensive lawyers to provide this sage advice of admitting culpability as a means of damage limitation?

    The crux of the matter is that at the end of the year, Brexit will definitively render the Treaty of Union null and void. The British State, along with the collusion of the SNP leadership, wants to deny us the knowledge, that as of 01/01/2021, Scotland becomes a de facto independent republic. The fundamental basis for the Treaty of Union is broken by granting Northern Ireland different trading and customs arrangements from the rest of the UK. Scotland becomes once again a sovereign nation in all matters, necessitating the withdrawal of the Crown and the British State from Scotland. However, both Boris Johnson and Nicola Sturgeon are determined to conceal this simple fact. They do not want the constitutional situation to be widely known and are happy to divert attention towards a second independence referendum which the former knows can be sufficiently manipulated if all else fails, and the latter because it allows her to kick the issue of independence farther down the road (just as she has been doing all along).

    It would not surprise me if further excessive coronavirus restrictions are imposed towards the end of the year as a means to exert (authoritarian) control. Boris Johnson will use the restrictions to suppress demonstrations of anger against the effects of Brexit in England, and Nicola Sturgeon will try to ensure the breaking of the Treaty of Union passes without protest in Scotland.

  342. McDuff says:

    I agree with that.

  343. Robbo says:

    Reply to Big Jock
    Wee Chid and Robert Louis

    Yes I am very much looking at the bigger picture. Nobody is trying to denegrate the huge contribution Salmond has made for the Party and the cause but what some of you are suggesting is that she should have turned a blind eye to the very damaging sexual assault accusations he was facing. To do nothing was not an option, to try and cover them up was not an option leaving a criminal prosecution the ONLY option to clear his name and indeed if he had been convicted we would not be having this conversation. Trying to establish whether Sturgeon and/or her husband were complicit in all this is a secondary issue and is simply deflecting us from focusing on Independence and can wait until the dust has settled. The fact of the matter is support for that ultimate goal has never been higher and I would strongly contest from my experience on the ground that would not have been achieved if Salmond was still in charge for the reasons I have already outlined and are subsantiated by the polls. Yes she clearly has her critics but what is important she has a greater appeal in the public eye especially amongst marginal voters. By airing all these ‘conspiracy’ theories we are simply handing ammunition to our opponents and the britnat media. We can do a forensic examination at a letter stage and indulge in blood letting if needed to purge the Party but not now.

  344. Al-Stuart says:

    Excellent and a frightening article.

    Stuart, this made me think of Craig Murray and his plight.

    There was a speech by Rowan Atkinson of all people which I believe is apposite to both your thread and also to Ambassador Murray…

    If Sturgeon McWoke and her Humza Yapdog along with Penfold Murrell and Albert Rhiannon Speer, architect of McWoke shitler youth get their way we are all genuinely fuckked. Including Wings Over Scotland. Unless you re-register this site in Iceland under their “Modern Media Initiative” to protect international free speech. Even then as you are a U.K. resident, you will need to distance yourself or face arrest by obersturmbannführer Penfold and sent to Stalag 44 on the Ardnamurchan Peninsula.

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