Wings Over Scotland

Slabstains the floor.

Great cartoon.

Labour this week showing yet again that when the chips are down, they run and hide. They continually say they stand for things, yet when they have to vote, they either abstain or vote against the very thing they say they stand for.

Labour in Scotland, our red tory friends, stand for nothing. They are truly vacuous. Only this week Kezia has been mouthing off about how she wants a ‘peoples railway’. The facts however show, that when the Scottish Government formally asked the last Labour Government in Wesmtinster (where the law can be changed) to change the law to allow this, the Labour Westminster Government point blank refused. That’s Gordon Brown for you.

That is Scottish Labour over and over again. Then to prove just how pathetic a party they have become, this week they abstained on a vote supporting Scotland’s place in Europe. Labour are a sad, pathetic joke, run by a supposed leader who has, time and time again shown she has zero political integrity.

Hey Kezia, how about just once actually standing up for what you believe in, instead of playing ridiculous student type political games to the detriment of Scots.

Labour in Scotland, a proverbial waste of oxygen.

She’s a wily one, that Kezia. She’ll go far.

My, she’s putting on the beef.It must be by always having one about SNP bad.
She’ll never get a man at this rate.

Aye, always painting herself into a corner. That’s Dippy right enough. And i know how she always gets herself out of it….
she simply changes the colour of paint used.
🙂

Sadly work etc has kept me away recently. I am behind reading the posts.

Sincere apologies if this has been posted already .

link to terryentoure.blogspot.co.uk

I like the contradiction in the power suit she’s wearing, Chris, but shouldn’t the paint be a shade of blue?

Weekend reading link to wp.me

I’ve finally made up my mind regarding currency

If SNP bottle a separate scottish currency I’m voting NO any future referendum

Morningside denizens tell their Red Tory MP abstainer to stop Article 50

link to thenational.scot

Excellent. When the paint dries, Kezia has to get out of that corner!

If May goes for the Hard to Dirty end of the Brexit spectrum, and won’t entertain a different soft deal for Scotland, then the choice for Scotland will be Indy or sink into the shit with England.

Unionist politicians will be faced with a choice, which first? The interests of their constituents or the interests of party and Union?

galamcennalath

They will go with the Union.
The interests of the ordinary people don’t feature.
Unionism as a cult, or thought process, effectively excludes the best interests of people.

Chris, you’ve made my day. Wonderful.

The Nationalist articles archived.

Murray

link to archive.is

Macintyre-Kmp

link to archive.is

Poor Kezia.

There’s an old saying that when nodody’s there for you ,then you have got to pick yourself up.
Nobody is there for Kezia because she has sold her principles to the devil. She still has time, but it is limited.

OT – or maybe not

for a bit of “California Dreaming” you mamas and papas.

link to archive.is

link to archive.is

Oh dear another fine mess you’ve got yourself into Kezia.
In the corner with nowhere to run to and nowhere to hide.

@Proud Cybernat

But the tories are urging May to drop the case fearing the Scots may get ‘some rights’ [Link on previous thread]

Heh. Needed that.

Many thanks Chris. 🙂

Labour in the red corner. Tories in the blue corner

SNP winging it. Winning by a mile.

She needs a song for Kez written, a Xmas single number 1. JC’s got one already. Some people have a lot of time on their hands.

link to youtube.com

Song for Kez, We are living in a material world and I am a material girl… back up dancing from twerking Ed Balls, who BBC R4 tory gimps have been desperately trying to drag back from historic clowndom this week, and failing.

@Proud Cybernat,

See the Claim of Right 1989. This was the document signed by many Labour and Lib Dems prior to devolution acknowledging the Sovereignty of the Scottish people.
Only Tam Dalziel refused to sign it.

Though it has never been tested legally it indicates that Labour and the Lib Dems representatives did acknowledge that sovereignty.

Signatories included Gordon Brown.

Another great image, Chris.

Oh, Kezia, you’re such a silly sausage…

I would give the shirt on my back for my children to grow up in an Interdependent Scotland, but if the SNP don’t paint my garden fence the correct shade of woodstain, then they can feck right off. Lol.

Red toryboys very excited today, as BBC vote No Scotland gimp say SNP are bad, really bad, shock. Sally so hates the SNP, with every last penny in her little wee BBC pay cheque.

Scott Arthur Retweeted
Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall 17h17 hours ago
Well done Sally Magnusson challenging @AConstanceSNP to stop blaming Westminster & start using powers we have to tackle poverty in Scotland.

@proud Cybernat,

Thinking of it, devolution was started with the Claim of Right document which held the Scottish people were Sovereign.

If parliament at Westminster passed devolution legislation without specifically changing the contents of the Claim of Right,then technically they have agreed to the Sovereignty of the Scottish people in the devolution bill.

Sally Magnusson, song for SLab and Kez, why we wont vote red tory, its ordained, by JC, SNP are bad, so very bad

link to youtube.com

Very British Euphemia Deans also on ecumenical theme today, SNP are bad, their vote is also bad and stupid because,

“There are many ways of getting them to come to the communion. They must be promised free bread. This can be transformed into the forbidden flesh. They must be given free wine, brewed to a stupendous strength by monks and so already consecrated. They must be given free prescriptions, free eye tests and free tuition. All of this is so that they can taste the promised delights of Scottish independence. Just one taste and they will be licking their lips forever.

But what of the rest of us? What of those who are immune to the SNP’s charms? We are still here. We won last time around. Who is to say that we wouldn’t win again?”

What would Jesus vote?

Kezia Dugdale: the envy of political parties all over the world. Indira Gandhi; Golda Meir; Angela Merkel.

Who are they compared to the Branch’s leader?

bookie from hell says:
19 November, 2016 at 9:08 am

I’ve finally made up my mind regarding currency

If SNP bottle a separate scottish currency I’m voting NO any future referendum

_________

Another red herring to muddy the waters. When will people start to wake up to the real qestion?

link to azlyrics.com

Quite simple really. Anything else can be decided later

actualy I’m an x libdem

really believed in a federal union

your mistaken if you think you can be wishy washy on currency
next referendum

I’m trying to help

Scottish currency is a solid position,avoids all the bull.

you cannae share the pound
your joining the euro

look at Sweden,they are serious about digital currency

I still vote SNP elections for Nicola alone

@Socrates Mc sporran,

Dominic Grieve the former Solicitor General and several other senior Tories are requesting May to abandon this appeal to the Supreme Court.

I think the penny has dropped that no matter the outcome there will be a Constitutional crisis. If Scotland is successful them May and indeed Scotland faces the wrath of middle England. The Union would become untenable.

Capella @10.20

I don’t think the Trades Unions are rejecting Abellio because purely because it’s Dutch.

They have a bigger trophy – they want to bring down the Scottish Government and get a Labour administration in place. Hence, Kezia’s questions at FMQ’s for the last couple of weeks have been about transport – not education, her usual lament.

Also, on QT on Thursday night, Chris Bryant (Labour) was quick to mention Abellio at one point in the discussion with John Donaldson and of course there are the ever pervasive headlines on the newspapers sending out their insidiousness, demanding that Humsa Yousaf steps down and , in one case, that Nicola RESIGNs! .

It was bad luck that the train broke down the other morning – or was it? Could that have been ‘engineered’?

Not defending Abellio, just suggesting that something is afoot and Kezia is part of it.

Just imagine if the Supreme Court says that Enland has the right to leave AND Scotland has the right to remain and England, if it wants to leave, it can’t drag Scotland out, but can elect to break up the Union and go it’s own way.

They can’t change the Treaty of Union, but they can elect to dissolve it.

rUK would then be Scotland, (under the treaty of Union) and if, say NI also insisted in remaining it would be the UK of Scotland and NI. England and Wales be be called something like The former UK State of England and the Principality of Wales.

There is precedence for such names

link to ec.europa.eu

All of us have travelled throughout the world or lived in different countries and all of us have spent time explaining to folk from other countries that Scotland is not the same as England sometimes to quizzical looks and a lack of understanding of the complexities of the UK

We talk about our cultural differences our political differences but still many times it’s confusing to the questioner as to why we’re still a part of a system we don’t agree with or like, to the questioner it’s simple “Why don’t we just leave” they suggest, and then the explanation becomes more difficult again

To the average foreign person England UK Great Britain are all the same places, and in that statement shows how successful the UK has been in it’s world propaganda of subsuming our country and dissapearing it

When people overseas express their dislike for the “English” what they mostly mean is the perception of London as all of the aforementioned places making it more difficult for Scotland as a country to be noticed above the dislike for the main bit
Yet as any discourse continues with foreign folk and their minds are jogged a little they begin to realise that yes they do know something about Scotland, we play bad football drink whisky and wear kilts, we also eat some funny stuff as well
So by this time we’re on a roll and we’re happy, Scotland exists again and a good time is generally had by all, because foriegn folk tend to like us Scots, they like our humour our openness and willingness to join in no matter how poor we might be at their games or language or customs
and that’s a great thing we Scots are able to accomplsh abroad for our country

But now here’s the thing “Brexit” is telling the world “We” don’t want to know them and in that moment if we, Scotland leave the European Union all our efforts and place in the world will have been pushed back a hundred years behind the narrow self centred Imperialistic English Nationalism that
created the unequal society we struggle to resolve today and it will only get worse if we allow England to redo history all over again and cancel Scotland

Another brilliant cartoon!

Socrates Mc S @11.47

I wonder if that is the logic underpinning Mrs. Thatcher’s belief that once Scotland had a majority of pro-independence MP’s at Westminster, then they would be entitled to seek separation.

John Donaldson touched on it it QT on thursday but when asked by Dimble bore if that was his stance now John said ‘No!’ curiously…

Proud Cybernat@10.41

I think you understand it perfectly.
Nicola has known from the outset that TM would not be able to use the Royal P to enable Art. 50 which is why there was a flurry of headlines in July/August about a ‘Scottish Veto’.
At which point ‘oor Nicki’ said she did not intend to veto anything but wanted input into the discussions at the highest level.

Of course this hasn’t happened, and TM has pressed on blindly like a broken record.. ‘we are on target to trigger Art. 50 in March 2017’ etc..

She is being advised NOT to go through with this appeal. Mike Russell has advised her to desist; the High Court has more-or-less spelt it out to her but the usual UK Government arrogance means they can’t help themselves. It will open a humungous can of worms,
the genie will be out of the bottle big time and Pandora’s box will be blown to smithereens.

An article I was reading last night states that the Supreme Court consists of two Scottish judges and 10 others from the rUK and normally upwards of 5 judges will hear an appeal.
Even if both Scottish judges sit on a particular case, the majority of judges will not be especially well versed in Scots law, so they defer to their Scottish colleagues on matter Scots and simply concur with their ruling – Nicola as a lawyer knows this but does TM?

If the UKSCourt agrees with the High Court ruling then a Legislative Consent Motion will have to discussed and voted on in Holyrood and, I think, in NI.

2017 could be a pivotal year – fingers crossed.

It’s the neuklear option

Great cartoon Chris. I think Kezia’s vote reflects her priority- union first and above all. The great hypocrisy for me is Alex Rowley and the other slab msp who are pro EU and want us to stay in even if it means leaving the UK.

How can they obey the whip over their own stated views? And those of their constituents?

I’m trying to understand the export report which has sired the great 4 times battering ram ie UK is 4 times as important a market than the EU.

My first thoughts are- the stats are as unreliable as you can get- based on transposing small percentages of respondents who may be giving accurate figures or may be conjuring up ball park guesses for the survey.

Second- oil and gas exports are excluded.

Third EU and RoW figures exclude over a billion from certain sectors- currently trying to figure out which ones but it looked like being well over a billion difference from total exports.

Fourth- goods destined for EU sold to rUK firms are classed as rUK exports and therefore underestimate our actual trade with EU and overstate rUK exports (I think)

Fifth and most importantly: does any of this matter anyway? The rUK will always be a huge market for us. Either it is good to be a massive net exporter (which we are) or it is not good (and most people would agree it is a good thing for our economy).

Scotland and rUK, come independence will develop a symbiotic relafionship- it is very much in our interest for us to have as few barriers to trade with rUK as possible- that much I agree with the yoons. But at the same time- any barriers they have with us will be barriers they would then also share when trading with the the rest of the EU so any crowing about difficulties we would face would be absurd- any punishment Scotland would face would be an act of grotesque self harm by rUK PLC.

Finally- our exports to the EU are products, goods, machinery and of course we supply all these to rUK in vast quantities. Our exports to rUK are so vast in terms of STUFF THEY NEED – forestry, aggregates, food, drink, electricity, construction, financial services, chemicals, oil, gas, utilities, machinery, IT, administration, retail…. The list is endless. Can you imagine the devastation to both economies if all this ceased?

I need to go buy stuff from the supermarket but the supermarket also needs my custom- it is not a one- sided relationship.

All this is very obvious of course but I am becoming enraged every time I hear or read of our country being depicted like some kind of vulnerable upstart who needs this market to survive when the truth is it goes both ways.

I’m just going to start telling people that I am so much of a unionist I won’t settle for a union of 60 million- I want to stay in a union of half a billion people. That’s not possible so next best thing is a union of £450 million.

I remember meeting a delightful US couple in Mexico.

She was a professor of Law at some mid-state Uni. Always took students on a trip to UK to see the police training college in England.

Whe I asked if she had bee to Tulliallan to visit the Scottish Police College I got a blank look.

I had to explain that we had our own legal system and separate police force.

She was gobsmacked.

She did intend to come to Scotland next trip.

I often wonder if she ever did.

Strange how little things are lost.

@McBoxheid says: 19 November, 2016 at 12:31 pm:

“rUK would then be Scotland, (under the treaty of Union).

” … There is precedence for such names
link to ec.europa.eu

More utter rubbish – read the words McBoxheid. Those links you quote all refer to countries and the United Kingdom is a union of two only kingdoms.

When it splits up it returns to being the same two independent kingdoms who agreed to unite in 1706/7. It does not return to being four countries for it has always been four countries.

Ireland remains the one country of Ireland but is under two different governments. The North is still an English Province and is often spoken of as, “The Province of Ulster”.

There is no other example of two kingdoms uniting as a United Kingdom on Earth. The Westminster propaganda that it is anything else is only in their minds. It has no legal standing. How can a two partner United Kingdom of two equally sovereign kingdoms become what is now the country of England, calling itself the United Kingdom and treating itself as a country called the United Kingdom while funding itself directly as the United Kingdom treat its former annexed countries as underlings by devolving the United Kingdom’s powers to them and even more insultingly demote its only partner kingdom of Scotland to being a country of England annexed country and devolve English powers to Scotland as a country when Scotland is in fact an equally sovereign kingdom in the United Kingdom.

Please do not make yourself look like an idiot by sucking in all the Westminster lies.

The United Kingdom is NOT a United Country and it never has been. It is a union of Kingdoms. Scotland is a Kingdom and a country but England is a country but only one such in the Kingdom Of England that signed the Treaty.

The proof is that neither Wales or Ireland signed the treaty because the were part of the Kingdom of England and it was that kingdom of England that signed it was not only the country of England or Wales and Ireland would not have become part of the union.

@K1 1:58pm

Declare independence anyway since England will be in the middle of a civil war.

Also combined with Morningside’s challenging Murray tae vote against A50, with the Herald being unable to find many leave voters of an opposing view, but finding many No voters expressing they would now vote Yes. I can see the tide has turned.

It’s all coming to a head…in our favour. We have never been so close.

“I agree that we need monetary sovereignty to be independent but we need to stay with cash. Look who is pushing for a cashless society –”

Pheck it! I’ll use bloddy irn bru bottles if we have to. Them’s what you call a real hard currency.

@ Meg Merilees – yes I’m sure there is a bigger game plan in Kezia’s FMQs.
Re ASLEF – I noticed this tweet in the Rev’s twitter yesterday. From Kevin Lindsay, Scottish Secretary of ASLEF. Not a fan of SNP obvs.
link to twitter.com

What with everyone saying Kezia has no brain and Ruth has no heart, it’s beginning to look like the Wizard of OZ.

Kezia is the Scarecrow with no brain, a head full of straw that can’t frighten the birds, pointing in all directions and unsteady on her feet.

Ruth is the Tin Man. No heart, all shiny on the outside, but hollow, and devoid of any substance inside. Although she won’t admit it, she really does rely on the oil. Does not like rainy days, and makes a loud noise if banged. Always carries a large chopper, which may be symbolic for something?

So who is the Cowardly Lion? David Coburn or Willie Rennie? A big Fearty Gawk that is scared of their own shadow.

Nicola is, of course the heroine of this story, Dorothy, with perhaps Patrick Harvie as Toto, a little friend of Dorothy. Theresa May is the Wicked Witch of the East, and us Indies as the Little Munchkins that help Dorothy get to the Emerald City, (or Independence)?

God knows who the Emperor is? but the flying monkeys that help the Witch and attack Dorothy are the Yoons, especially the OO, and of course, their enablers the BUM press.

“Theresa May is the Wicked Witch of the East…”

Nah–that has to be JK Rowling! Or is she the Wizard?

@bugsbunny

Truly brilliant analogy. Loved it, brought a smile to my coupon LOL

Don’t know where that extra Scotland came from when referring to BLiS above. Must have been bursting to get out. 🙂

Thanks Thepnr,

Perhaps Chris can do a wee cartoon to that effect? Nicola as Dorothy with little Patrick Toto looking out of the basket, enabled, (though not on purpose), by The Lion, The Scarecrow and the Tin Man. The Little Munchkins wearing Yes Badges and SNP Badges harassed by Theresa the Witch with the flying monkeys with their sash on. Some can even be seen playing a flute. With a big smiley sun with Alex Salmonds face saying “Good Morning”. “This way East to the Emerald City of Independence”.

@Robert Peffers –

I’d love to see a double-page spread in The National, by you, laying it all out.

That would make Rock’s day, eh?

🙂

@ Robert Peffers

So why, Robert, does Westminster still think that a second Indy Ref can only be permitted with its say so (section 30 order)?

Surely if the people of Scotland entrust their sovereignty to its elected SNP representatives and those representatives overwhelmingly decide they want to hold another IndyRef then why don’t they just go ahead and do it? Why don’t they say to Westminster, “Ram yer section thirty order! We are a sovereign people and we will have our sovereign referendum whether you agree or not.”

What’s stopping our elected sovereign repreentatives from doing that at Westminster and Holyrood if we are the sovereign people you keep telling us we are?

(I’m not questioning you on this btw–I believe we are, as you say, a sovereign people. But why the hell do our SNP reps not realise this and why do they continue to play the WM game?)

Proud Cybernat
Timing?

@Liz g

Ah, yes. Now it is all coming together 🙂

Proud Cybernat @ 4.46
They don’t cause they can’t.
They have been instructed by us their Sovereigns to continue to work in the Westminster parliament and operate within it’s rules.
That’s what the No vote did.

Thepnr @ 5.15
I love that movie it has so many messages on so many levels.
While it is supposed to be about the Gold Standard.
Atheists claim it’s message about fake power as well.
But I had never thought of applying it to our Indy movement before,I read Bug’s post.
Now I am seeing Indy Ref 1,as the hot air balloon that could have potentially taken Dorothy home.
And Indy Ref 2,as the Ruby slipper’s that did.

I’ll get ma coat..

Great cartoon again; our Chris loves colouring! 🙂

Who else is wondering if Kez manages this all on her own? Does she have a Privy Council to advise her and if so who is on it? I wonder because it takes somebody of McTernanesque pig headedness to make such a pig’s breakfast of political relevance in Scotland and she does not seem to me to be such an inflexible person. I dont think she can pray stupidity in her defence as Willie Rennie can either so it has to be the camel effect of her committee.

@Proud Cybernat

We don’t.

We could hold advisory referendums every day of the week and on winning one based on independence our government would spend a great deal of time in courts fighting over every teeny item of settlement.

The S30 secured a mutually agreed dissolution which compelled the loser to adhere to mutually beneficial dissolution of the treaty of union with a no detriment clause. Or continuation of the union with again no detriment in terms of devolved settlement (ayup, we’ll get back to them on that to… eventually).

But that’s the difference in the two types of referendum in a nutshell. One has an agreed upon and legal outcome compelled by law and parliamentary legislation (both parliaments). The other as has been discovered in the case of the EU referendum is basically only morally binding requiring a willing parliament to agree legislation to pass.

Proud Cybernat 5.29
It is partly brinkmanship and partly perception.
It’s not permission as such ,just the impression that it is.
Think of it in European terms.
Westminster don’t need permission to vote to leave.
So as half of question time keep saying what’s the hold up.
Well the hold up is the leagal stuff.
The EU wrote an article 50 as the rules for how you sort it all out if you vote to leave.
That’s roughly what The Edinburgh Agreement was except the Edinburgh Agreement was time barred,and has run out.
So…. Article 50 doesn’t stop a vote happing or prevent leaving but it’s always in place to define the terms and conditions for doing so.
Our documents ran out in 2014 so we need another one.
Otherwise we could spend a lot of time and treasure in the courts.
Westminster will try to use misconception about this as a delay.
And I am just waiting for….the government has to much on with Brexit,we will get to you.
And the MSM…. wait your turn Scotland,you can’t monopolize all the attention.
My answer though is..well is that not what Ruth,Fluffy and Kez are for, do they not represent you in Scotland.
If you are busy give it to them.
If not tell us why not.

Righto–so, bottom line. The people of Scotland are only as sovereign as WM telling us (after we have voted to have another IndyRef), “Leave it with us. We’ll get back to you. At some point. Whenever.”

Okay–glad we cleared that up.

Proud Cybernat @ 6.10
No … That’s what they would like to happen.
But they can only do that if Scotland co-operate.
And….well….em..oh dear.

Breeks @ 6.16
Yes I agree it’s all smoke and mirrors…. always has been.
It’s just most Scot’s never asked….how is that arrangement ever going to work.
And those that did ask had no way of putting the information out en mass.
Until now.
It ( This Union ) doesn’t work…it never has.
And because of the Two different Soverenty’s it never can.
It’s an enigma wrapped in a riddle shielding a lie.
Even trying to explain it in every day language makes you sound insane and as if you are contradicting yourself.

This is the text of an article in the Telegraph you may find interesting.
link to waitingfortax.com

The salient paragraph on whether, once triggered, Article 50 can be withdrawn is:

”Nicola Sturgeon can explode that cosy consensus. She could instruct the Lord Advocate to seek a reference to the Luxembourg court so that it can answer the question. And she should.”

Explode indeed.

Perhaps this is why TM is being urged not to pursue the appeal.

Macart @ 4.47
Just reading back and saw your post on The Treaty of the Union making it into the Court case.
This is brilliant news,made my day.
Here’s hoping that the Judge’s let the arguments in.
No wonder I am hearing May is being advised to pull out
I really thought that they wouldn’t go for it and stick to devolution matters.
Do you have any idea, that if the Judge’s don’t hear the arguments can we then use them in Europe?
I don’t mean rule against what they did allow in.
I mean if they ruled Aritical 18 not revelent to what they are deciding?

@Proud Cybernat says: 19 November, 2016 at 4:46 pm:

“So why, Robert, does Westminster still think that a second Indy Ref can only be permitted with its say so (section 30 order)?”

This isn’t the easiest thing in the World to get a grip on, Proud Cybernat and I’ve had a lifetime to get to grips with it and I realise that has more than one effect. Not least that once aware of it you see the flaws that other have not even noticed yet as they happen. The other is you go looking for information and then find it.

I believe that it is not until you begin to know what it means that you begin to figure it out properly but I’ll try and explain it in a slightly different way.

The first thing is that the majority of Scots really do not know they are legally sovereign. I’ve seen this since I was a wee laddie.

Take for example the law of trespass. There is no such English style law in Scotland and Scots have always had a legal right to roam because they are sovereign and thus own Scotland. Yet I’ve experience many examples of landowners taking illegal steps to stop people from entering their property. Even lairds and gamekeepers brandishing closed shotguns at people. Farmers placing large boulders and rocks across laybys to stop people parking.

As legally sovereign we can go where we please with these restrictions, We must not cause any damage where we go and we must respect gates so that we leave them as we find them. If closed we must close them behind us.

We must respect the landowner’s privacy and not go too close to their dwelling places. And if we can we must stick to clearly marked paths, tracks and roads.

Yet I’d bet everyone has seen notices, “Trespassers will be prosecuted”, in Scotland? They will not be prosecuted the worse they will be is sued for any damage they do.

As to why will the SG not take action and defy Westminster the answer is because the SG are NOT sovereign as a government but are as individuals. The people are sovereign and it is the people and only the people who can defy anyone at all in the World but only in Scotland itself.

If the SNP, or any Scottish government were to even attempt to, “put the people up to it”, you can imagine the Yoon uproar at that. This is where the YES movement has the greatest power. They are the Grassroots – i.e. the sovereign power – BUT ONLY IF THEY ARE THE MAJORITY.

Then the SG can say they have a mandate to act but they dare not be seen to be putting the Grassroots, “up to it”. It has to come from the sovereign people themselves.

So lets look at the two legal sovereignty kingdoms.

Until The Bruce killed the Red Comyn Scotland was, like the rest of Christendom ruled under the law of Divine Right of Kings. Then Robert the Bruce killed
John, “The Red Comyn”, at Greyfriars Churchyard on 10 February 1306. The Bruce had called the meeting and the pair left their swords outside and entered the church.

A fight broke out on the alter steps and Bruce stabbed The Red Comyn. First of all we will never know if Bruce killed or only injured the Comyn for Roger de Kirkpatrick said ‘You doubt. Ise mac siccar.’ – (You’re not sure? I’ll make sure. No one thus knows what happened and whether it was self defence.

The King of England saw his chance and had the ear of the Pope and had the Pope excommunicate Bruce who was crowned King after the other contender died.

The result was that as Divine Right was the law then the King owned the people and that meant all Scots were excommunicate too. That, in those days was catastrophic.

This prompted the drawing up and posting to the Pope the Declaration of Arbroath that declared Scotland an independent kingdom but it also changed the law of Scotland by making the people sovereign and the monarch the protector of the people’s sovereignty. That is still the basis of Scots law.

Probably the main reason the Pope accepted the Declaration was because the King of England and he had fallen out and the English King set himself up as Head of the Church of England. Not until 1688 and having still failed to annex Scotland were the English to stop being ruled under the law of Divine Right.

Even that was caused by Scotland and James I of England inheriting the English crown. Who can blame him for moving to England where he was sovereign from Scotland where he was not?

In 1688 the English Parliament had what they called, “The Glorious Revolution”, and deposed the monarch who wore both crowns but with each kingdom still independent. They just assumed that this meant the English Monarch being throw out also stopped him being King of Scots but as Scotland was still independent this was not so.

That is what started the Jacobite uprisings against the monarchy the English Parliament imported to replace the Stewart King. These were King Billy & Queen Mary of Orange. However, as these were House of Orange royals the English parliament would only give then the crown of England on condition they legally delegated their royal sovereign powers to the parliament of England.

In an effort to make sure King Billy did not give the crown of England to the house of Orange they had the legal guys set a court judgement, thus a precedent, that the sovereignty, just legally delegated to the parliament by the monarchs, was the property of the kingdom and not personally that of the monarch.

Yet they still deemed the Monarch was the sovereign who owned everything and everyone. That made the three country Kingdom of England legally a, “Constitutional Monarchy but, remember, in 1688 Scotland was still an independent kingdom.

Which was why there was to be Jacobite uprising until almost 40 years after the Treaty of Union was signed. It fact it was the reason that the parliament, that still calls 1603 the Union of the Crowns, had to force Scotland to sign the Treaty of Union that actually states that the law of Scotland will remain forever independent. It has to be because the two legal system are incompatible.

… Surely if the people of Scotland entrust their sovereignty to its elected SNP representatives and those representatives overwhelmingly decide they want to hold another IndyRef then why don’t they just go ahead and do it?”

Because, as I explain above they dare not chance being accused of being the instigators of a revolution against Westminster. It has to come from the grassroots to the SG and not the other way round. Heaven knows Wee Nicola has dropped enough hints about being mandated to do things. The lass is a trained lawyer and knows the implications.

It now rests with the sovereign people of Scotland to tell the SG what to do. This is NOT England where things work the other way round.

Now you can see just how counter productive Rocks constant niggling is when he claims that the Scottish people’s legal sovereignty is a myth and does not exist.

The point about sovereignty is that you have to believe you have it to use it. Westminster wrongly believes they have it over Scotland and they use it. Rock wrongly believes they have sovereignty and thinks the people of Scotland do not.

So they, (Westminster), use it and Rock decries even the thought of using it and defers to a Westminster sovereignty that does not legally actually exist.

I’ve asked him to produce any evidence he has for his belief and I know no such evidence exists.

The ending of the Wizard of Oz. “She had to find that all by herself” surely alludes to the Scot’s after muffing it up big time first time round, we will not surely be fooled again? Although we won’t be missing the three amigos? Well maybe the Scarecrow (Dugsdale) for a bit of comic relief. The Tinman (Davidson) can rust as far as Dorothy (Sturgeon) is concerned.

link to youtube.com

Robert Peffers what a beautifully laid out post and so clearly argued. Thankyou.

Surely, the very thing Nicola did immediately after the Brexit vote was to travel to Europe and take the message that Scotland is separate nation and different country from England and I think that are now beginning to understand that. However, is it not the case that they are bound to deal with the UK until such time as Scotland becomes Independent or the other half of the Union leaves the EU?

There’s no doubting that legal minds throughout the land are wrestling with this.

Here are some links if you can brace yourself to read through them.

This link lays out the Scottish and Welsh Gov. argument for the Appeal and some conclusions.
link to andersonstrathern.co.uk

link to headoflegal.com

This is an opinion form someone who thinks Article 18 is possibly not a good argument.
link to scottishconstitutionalfutures.org

This link is the ruling on the Indy camp at Holyrood. Article 18 of the Treaty of Union was used in the defence of the camp, (May 2016 – so it is still considered a valid law). The ruling states the complete Article 18 at point 39.

Point 46 is also worth a read… “the narrower argument relating to legislation concerning private rights would raise important constitutional issues concerning the sovereignty of the UK Parliament”

link to scotcourts.gov.uk

Loved the Alice in Brexit land analogy.

Forget Bruce and the Spider – it’s Andy Mussy for me -Never say die! Well done that amazing man

@bugsbunny

Eventually though after all their trials, the Scarecrow got a brain, Tin Man got a heart and the Cowardly Lion found courage.

The wicked witch and her flying monkeys were defeated, the Emperor exposed as a fraud. Only then did Dorothy return home.

‘It now rests with the sovereign people of Scotland to tell the SG what to do. This is NOT England where things work the other way round.’

Ergo the ‘Scottish Government’ has commissioned a mass study for the people of Scotland. Let’s give the Sovereign people a chance to respond to our government’s request for our input so that we can instruct them on our wishes:

Think there’s only a couple of weeks to go till this closes….

link to survey2016.scot

@Terry says: 19 November, 2016 at 6:37 pm:

“Thank you for all your wonderful posts. I have learned so much from you that I should have learned at school or university.”

I was blessed by having two of the finest teachers I ever knew. The brother was a primary school teacher and the sister a secondary school history teacher.

In those days teaching was a matter of belting the knowledge into the pupils. Yet I never saw either one ever belt anyone yet neither had occasion to belt anyone. They made the lessons a pleasure to take part in.

“On another note I heard Nigel farage banging on that the English people are sovereign. I’m away to tell him it ain’t so. But the Scots are. This fact alone means nicola has no choice but to challenge brexit as 62% of us voted to remain.”

By chance I already posted tonight that Nicola, a trained lawyer, knows that anything in the shape of independence or sovereignty has to come from the grassroots or all hell will hit the media with accusations of the SNP stirring things up.

You will note, though, how many hints the lady has dropped about being given a mandate? Not you may see demanding she be given a mandate.

It is also becoming apparent that some in the EU and the EC are beginning to realise that the United Kingdom is a bipartite Union of Kingdoms and not a single country.

However, the EU and EC too are restricted in what they can say and do. They must play by the rules. Hence May being told there will be no negotiations until the United Kingdom makes a formal request to leave the EU.

I also note that there are now some of the Tory party getting cold feet while 60 others, including 7 former cabinet ministers. are screaming for May to quit the customs union and single market when the United Kingdom leaves the EU.

Then there are others who are pleading with May to drop the appeal against the ruling MPs must vote on Brexit.

It looks like the Tory party as well as Labour are tearing themselves apart.

Thepnr @ 7.40
Or you could say she helped to get them what they wanted before she left them there,cause she’s nice like that.
But at no point was she staying or expressed any desire to take them with her.

Jist Sayin…

@Meg merrilees says: : 19 November, 2016 at 7:49 pm:

““Blast this lap top – it’s always ‘correcting’ my typing to some ridiculous new word!
Well done Andy MURRAY!”

Ah! That problem again. There is a setting somewhere to sort that out but I’m hanged if I can remember where it is on different browsers. It is not actually the spelling checker at fault but the text predictor thingy that tries to second guess what you are trying to say.

My spelling is not of the best, mainly though it is typos due to arthritis and the spelling checker usually picks them up.

However, before I turned off the text predictor I had lots of really crazy errors. Particularly when I lapsed back into the, “Lallans tune o the Scots leid”,(Lowland dialect of the Scots language).

Ah! found it in Microsoft Edge – It is way down the bottom. If you click on the three dots in the top right hand top corner then click settings and scroll down you find the Advanced button. Down the bottom on that bit is the page predictor setting.

Can’t remember where, or if, it is on Internet Explorer.

Blair McDougall would surely get a part too, eh?

‘Pay no attention to that tuba behind the curtain!’

🙂

O/T but a very important piece of work.

Friends of Willie Macrae have concluded their crowd funded investigation by two respected ex detectives.

link to markmacnicol.com

It is very detailed and impressive report.

Not surprisingly, the Scottish press do not come out very well but is it a glowing example of the power of independent crowd funded investigators to get to the truth after many years

Hopefully, this will give some piece to the Macrae family and the witnesses who have been hounded by the Press for years.

Willie Macrae can finally be remembered as an exceptional lawyer and patriot and not for the circumstances around his unfortunate death.

@Hoss

I never knew there was a memorial to Willie in Israel..

link to twitter.com

@Croompenstien,

Yes – 3000 trees – he was a very respected international lawyer who set up Israel’s maritime laws and also was a supporter of Indian Independence.

Ex Navy during WW2 – surprisingly he was Mountbatten’s aide-de-camp.

There was a play about him – see the links on Mark MacNicols website.

But please read the investigation – it realy does expose the lies and misinformation from a lazy, condescending and unapologetic Scottish Press.

@ Robert Peffers

Am I understanding this correctly Robert
The English crown handed its sovereignty to Parliament thus removing it from the people of that country?
and at that time was it an English Parliament?

I just want to clear something up in my thinking on this
in that if this is correct Scotlands people are the only ones in the UK who are actually a sovereign people

I understand you don’t do legal Robert but by taking part in the referendum at all does it sound like we might have ceeded our sovereignty away voluntarily even though our vote was different and would that sound like the basis of the UK contrary argument

Where’s Andrew Tickell when you want him

@ Tinto Chiel – new avatar. So who is this? Has Thomas Muir retired?

I see a big half-moon a-rising..

In the city of Glasgow.

CCR’d it X.

Dr Jim @ 10.03
No the Crown in England represents only the person of the Monarch.
It did give it’s Soverenty to parliament to use but not to own,and at no time was that Soverenty ever the people’s.
And yes it was only for England.
We in Scotland can’t give our Soverenty to anyone
No matter what.
Only God can do that.
Everything thing else yes but we can’t give it away.
The English Crown can’t give it to parliament to keep either,but that one is a bit more complicated.

I’ll accept that the people reading Wings are living in a bubble. So too are our opposites, active Unionists living in their own wee bubble.

The Wings bubble has been growing though since it’s inception 5 years ago. It is now a fairly big bubble and undoubtedly the biggest bubble in the Independence debate.

The thing about the Unionist bubble that is most obvious to me is that it has blogs such as Effie Deans or twitter commentators that are lauded such as Brian Spanner. This is a bubble that must burst.

There is too much hatred and you feel it must implode, though Scottish journalists like McColm, Crichton, Nelson and Massie manage to blow enough hot air into the bubble that it remains inflated.

I sense a change though, the journalists are gasping for breath with the huge weight of the truth bearing against their chests. Their voices are dimming at exactly the same time as ours are getting louder.

More and more now are seeking the truth and ignoring traditional media. They are very scared, they see the writing on the wall, the end game is near and Brexit will be the final straw.

Independence is our right and it is closer than it has ever been.

Liz g: there’s all sorts of speculation regarding knowledge acquired by Willie from Mountbatten on Establishment sex crimes. I didn’t know MB was a fan of Independence, tbh.

Capella: I knew I couldn’t get it past you. Thomas is just having a wee rest: he’s done so much for our cause.

Prize awarded for identification: not a good one, I have to add, but participants can enjoy the intellectual stimulation or not, as the case may be. Life may be too short, of course.

I am enjoying the potential meltdown of May pushing too far on the constitutional question.

Keep on truckin’, doll.

Water wears away the stone.

Lovely water, this.

O/T

Th UK North Sea Oil Industry has generated over £330 BILLION in tax revenue in the last almost 50 years.

link to uk.businessinsider.com

Before Westminster drags Scotland out of the EU, against our wishes, is there some kind of EU Grant that could be applied for that might give the North British Labour Accounting unit:

A, A Spine,

B, A sense of Direction,

C, A Brain between them?

link to caltonjock.com