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As they that are left grow old

Posted on June 08, 2019 by

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    1. 08 06 19 08:56

      As they that are left grow old | speymouth

    83 to “As they that are left grow old”

    1. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      If I didn’t have the optimism gene, that would make me crawl back under my (YES) stone.

      Well done Chris!

    2. Malky says:

      Stark and depressing in equal measure.

    3. Andrew Davidson says:

      That’s stark.

    4. Jim Morris says:


    5. Fergus Green says:

      Huge respect and admiration for that generation and much sympathy for their current plight, but there remains a further challenge for them.

      Vote YES for the younger generations.

    6. starlaw says:

      Nice one Chris. There is no democracy in a Monarchy, and while we wait for the NHS to be parcelled up and sold I wonder if the Gun Shops in the USA see a need to be expanding into Britain, Just needs some greased palms a tweak of the gun laws and they are in business, and was it Trump who declared that schoolchildren should be armed to deter would be gunmen. Surely this time round Project fear is in our hands. What a gift.

    7. Athanasius says:

      I’m curious about one thing. In both the Kennedy and Clinton White Houses, women entered at their peril. The Clintons had their hands out for money and would take it from anyone. LBJ was an open and unapologetic racist. FDR had his own daughter organizing his adulterous love life for him and that great progressive icon Woodrow Wilson showed a KKK movie in the White House, segregated the US military and fired all the blacks in the federal civil service. Trump, vulgarian though hemisphere, has never done anything in this league, yet these men are heroes, while the very name “Trump” induces absolute derangement. What gives?

    8. Robert Peffers says:

      Of course there’s hard won freedom & democracy, just not for the old, the poor, the sick and disabled or the viewers in Scotland.

    9. Robert Louis says:

      ‘…we’ve got the best folk, oh yes, the best people in Capitol hill working on this, and we’re going to have the best democracy, we’ll make democracy great again… and the likes of CNN and Hillary – who should be in jail, shouldn’t she? – they don’t like that, we’re going to be the best democracy you’ve ever seen. Everything else is fake, fake news..fake news…’

    10. Morgatron says:

      Brilliant Chris. Trump could be replaced by May ,Clinton,Blair,Brown,Bush,Thatcher etc etc there. May shed a tear when giving her resignation speech, but no tears for these young men who died in their 1000s or the old men the survivors have become.
      I didn’t here one revealing in victory or jingoism, these men delivered the 1st steps for the formation of the EU,very sad

    11. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Athanasius @ 07:49,

      Whatever their personal faults, it’s the positive things they achieved for everyone that people remember. Just as we should rightly have gratitude to our veterans for having bequeathed us what they did. Trump has only negative achievements, and it promises to get worse. To cheat an entire nation takes grifting to a whole new level. That’s the (fairly obvious) difference.

      And what gives you the certain knowledge that the prolific liar Trump “has never done anything in this league”? He’s absolutely desperate to keep everything hidden. What gives there then?

    12. stu mac says:

      @Morgatron says:
      8 June, 2019 at 8:19 am

      Brilliant Chris. Trump could be replaced by May ,Clinton,Blair,Brown,Bush,Thatcher etc etc there.

      Well said. I notice a lot of anti-Trump folk (not so much on here) seem to ignore the fact that he’s only one in a line of ever worsening politicians. I get the impression some even think (war mongerer) Hilary would have been better.

    13. Artyhetty says:

      The arrogance of Trump is sickening, he doesn’t seem human in fact, but that’s the problem he is and the power he holds in his hands is terrifying. Very fitting image there Chris.

      Re; Robert J Sutherland@8.20

      Absolutely, Trump has done untold damage to the environment, reversing laws which were put in place to protect land, flora and fauna in the US, and in a short time, god knows what else he has planned. He has demonised the poor, demonised women, he has toyed with the safety and security of the planet, he has emboldened the far right wing in the US, the rabid racists. There are immigrants locked in cages, standing room only, at the Mexican border, and Trump seems to get off on cruelty towards others in fact. A very dangerous loose cannon of a guy, if ever there was.

      We better hope he does not get to be installed for another term in office, because the planet and everyone on it are in great peril as it is.

      Now that’s a jolly start to a Saturday isn’t it. Enjoy the weekend and enjoy nature if you can, all at WoS!

    14. Ottomanboi says:

      A generation that was cannon fodder in wars resulting from big power imperialist nationalisms and job done, conveniently forgotten, until as currently ‘useful’ for state propaganda.
      Those nationalisms still evident in the sabre rattling posturing of certain world ‘powers’ and in the militarized, weaponized commemorations.
      About 2000 African American troops were involved in this fight for freedom. At the time they were 2nd class citizens in the ‘race’ discriminating US army.

    15. galamcennalath says:

      They fought for freedom and democracy … just not for all the Eastern European countries and much of Asia which ended up behind the Iron Curtain. Nor for colonies on European powers whose fight for freedom went on for decades.

      They fought for democracy against fascism, allegedly, but France and the UK could have challenged earlier in Spain 1936. Fascism was seen as an ally against communism. That plan went well, not. Temporarily, the US and UK ended up fighting on the same side as the Soviet Union. After 1945 if was back to business as usual where the US in particular backed fascist against communism especially in South America and SE Asia.

      I am sceptical and full of doubts and reservations about every war and it’s justifications.

    16. Clootie says:

      The best any nation has yet achieved is the illusion of democracy. If the powerful do not have control of the monarch or president then they replace them. They always have control of the media.

      We should keep trying for true democracy in which the people are truly in command. One thing is certain it will not be delivered as part of the U.K. Cesspit of corruption.

    17. galamcennalath says:

      Athanasius @ 07:49

      You list only Democratic Party presidents. A hidden agenda there?

    18. Dr Jim says:

      On a day when the English Monarchy are handing out prizes (bribes)clearly stating they believe they are an Empire (CBE) (MBE) (Knighthoods) and so forth, does that not indicate quite clearly that democracy is something they *DON’T* believe in

      There are people in Scotland who still haven’t noticed this

    19. Marie Clark says:

      I find that very moving Chris.

      My late father was one of the young men, ( 19 years old) who fought on the beaches at D-Day. He, like many others I suppose, never ever spoke of the events that they witnessed. But all of his life, he used to suffer at times from tremendous nightmares. It left these young men deeply scarred mentally, but they were of the breed, that just had to give themselves a shake and get on with it.

      I wondered what he would make of it all now if he could see it. He was once a staunch trade unionist and Labour supporter. I said at the time of the referendum in 2014 that he would be horrified at what Labour had become, and I don’t think he or Mum would have been voting for them anymore.

      Sometimes, in a way, I’m pleased that he is not here to see all that is going on now. He had to fight to give us our freedom, and what the hell have these politicians done with it.

    20. Orri says:

      They, and the generation before, have us woman’s suffrage followed by universal, the first Labour governments, the League of Nations followed by the UN, the EEC followed by the EU, workers rights and human rights, the NHSs and improved welfare.

      Any tory, or other politicians, claiming to remember them whilst destroying that better explain

    21. kapelmeister says:

      A Scottish version of that cartoon would have a Normandy veteran with a Yes badge next to his medals asking the same question. With the indyref refusing candidates in the Tory leadership race standing and smirking.

    22. Frank Gillougley says:

      I think the answer to the question, ‘was it worth it’ may lie in the fact George Orwell wrote the timeless and prophetic 1984 immediately after WWII. A depressing answer.

      However, expansionist Nazi Germany was truly an evil, necessary for the world to be rid of.

    23. Is that a Royal Navy badge on the beret,

      my dad was in the RN,served on the Indefatigable (Carrier) and Obedient (Destroyer),

      born in Granton (Edi) and always loved the sea,

      and very much a Scottish patriot,

      “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”


      `1984` was first published 70 years ago today,Secker & Warburg June 8 1949,

      mostly written on the Isle of Jura.

    24. Clootie says:

      American politics is comparable to having the choice between the Brexit Party or the Tory Party.
      The “Republican” Farage president OR the “Democrat” Johnson president.

    25. Robert Peffers says:

      @galamcennalath says: 8 June, 2019 at 8:54 am:

      ” … I am sceptical and full of doubts and reservations about every war and it’s justifications.”

      With good cause, galamcennalath.

      It isn’t the guys & gals on the parade square who start wars, it is guys, and gals, in people funded palaces and parliamentary, taxpayer funded offices who do that. The guys & gals in married quarters and barrack rooms don’t start wars they just fight in them, get crippled in them and die in them.

    26. Sinky says:

      O/T Another one sided report on Caithness economy by BBC GMS this morning at 9.45 with no council or government spokesperson to respond to the issues raised

    27. Muscleguy says:

      I love how a couple of wavy blue lines gives us a Normandy shoreline.

      The democracy thing is interesting since the American version is clearly broken since Trump got 2million fewer votes than Clinton but the FPTP, winner takes all nature of the electoral college means the loser won.

      Also British ‘we fought for democracy’ under FPTP doesn’t work since the breakdown of binary party politics.

    28. Orri says:

      The problem with a system based on, mainly, voting in person is that it’s going to be subject to local conditions affecting the turn out. It might not look good in this instance but the electoral college system is a solution to that dilema. There’s one state that delivers a split vote though so it might be interesting to see how the result would be affected if they all had.

    29. Ahundredthidiot says:

      FFS, it was democracy which elected Trump and Brexit – by free people.

      Those who want it otherwise are condoning dictatorship.

      If it was kim jong un or Xi, then fine.

      Anti American claptrap

    30. kapelmeister says:

      Just noticed that Donald is tweeting. And is that Gold beach? To match his hair?

    31. Hamish100 says:

      Of course it was worth it.

      Shereen c/o BBC got an Empire medal and a couple of ex Labour “socialist” MP’s are now Knights of the Realm.

    32. Capella says:

      Democracy depends on accessible decision making powers – devolution to the most practical level. Democracy also requires freedom of information and an unbiased media. Anybody who thinks this describes the UK or the USA is deluding themselves.

    33. David Smith says:

      It’s my belief that the war effort against Germany by the western powers only intensified from 1942-3 due to Hitler’s failure to destroy the USSR.
      Had he succeeded, I now believe they would have been falling over themselves to come to an ‘accommodation’ with the Nazis, given the shared values of the wealthy elites like Henry Ford, Standard Oil, JP Morgan and the likes.
      In a way, Trump has actually done the world a service by removing the mask from Uncle Sam and showing the world what has actually been there since at least the 1940s.
      Good Guys my arse; sometimes I ponder whether the world might be a better place if Zhukov and Koniev had reached the Rhine first…

    34. Fireproofjim says:

      Athanasius @7.49
      Don’t think LBJ was racist, as you claim. He drove through the Civil Rights act to the extent of even putting the National Guard into university campuses to ensure equal rights for black students. He went much further than any other president in this matter.

    35. Athanasius says:


      Not hidden. I’m Irish, and by default I’ve always gravitated towards the Democrats, assuming them to be the good guys. But they’re not. Having studied their history and their present, I perceive them now for what they truly are: an organized criminal conspiracy. They’re the Cosa Nostra. They’re vermin. The Republicans are stuff shirts and occasional crooks (Nixon), but as an entity, as a group, they have never even approached the kind of wickedness which is both native and endemic to the Democrats. I truly despise them.

    36. T May was crying like a spoiled child because she did not get her own way and as for all the English luvies awarding each other all their honours but none for those who run the food banks got any ???

    37. auld highlander says:

      the mayday holiday to be moved in 2020 for ve day.

      and again the old timers will be used in their propaganda fest.

    38. kapelmeister says:

      Private Widdle (a.k.a. Rory Stewart) has said, regarding his barmy and sinister National Citizen Service plan, that he’ll embark on the legislation “as soon as I take over as Prime Minister”.

      Not “if I am chosen to serve as PM”. But “as soon as I take over” Take over? Jeez.

    39. Ahundredthidiot says:

      anybody thinking fascism was defeated is deluding themselves. Nazis, yes, but fascism will never die, it’s in our nature as a species.

      Secret is to recognise it in all of us and keep it down in the black pit it deserves.

      Particularly those who wear a uniform to work. Dont believe me? If you had showed me a picture of todays police officer back in the 80’s I would suggest he was an SAS Trooper, not a cop.

      keeping us safe though, eh…..

    40. kapelmeister says:

      Turned on the telly and the set of Saturday Kitchen festooned with UJ bunting. FFS.

    41. Robert Peffers says:

      @Clootie says:8 June, 2019 at 8:55 am:

      ” … We should keep trying for true democracy in which the people are truly in command. One thing is certain it will not be delivered as part of the U.K. Cesspit of corruption.”

      There is a little point that no one has mentioned yet. The vast majority of those who fought and died were not fighting for any other reason than they had no choice in the matter.

      The people getting shot at, bombed and set on fire and otherwise being in the enemy line of fire were conscripted my their government. They didn’t choose to fight against facism or anything else for that matter.

      Here’s a thought for you – why was it that officers carried revolvers? Revolvers did not have the range to engage with the enemy under most conditions?

      But revolvers were very handy to get the allied troops to go and shoot at the enemy if they showed reluctance to do so.

    42. Breeks says:

      Ahundredthidiot says:
      8 June, 2019 at 10:10 am
      FFS, it was democracy which elected Trump and Brexit – by free people.

      I think that’s the point Ahundredthidiot. The veterans fought for a better world and a noble idea democracy, not this democracy, where corporate interests, Dark Money, Deep State influence and rancid wall to wall propaganda are creating Redneck Leadership like Trump in the US, and the spineless gobshites or xenophobic populists we “elect” in the UK.

      I don’t see this cartoon as anti American. This is wry commentary of the hard won principles of democracy being squandered and abused by the “victors”. We, the people, have apparently learned nothing or forgotten all we did learn, so was it worth their sacrifice?

      We owe it to our veterans to deliver the Democratic values they fought for, not surrender our democracy to corruption caused by the spivs, charlatans and propagandists.

      Post WW2, they came home to build a land fit for heroes, with an NHS to look after them, and free access to education, all in a better world no longer driven by the endless Imperial Wars in Europe and colonial wars abroad. That was one of the central pillars of thought behind the Common Market… to make war impossible, and it bloody well worked too!

      And here we are, in a flag waving exceptionalist nightmare of a proto fascist xenophobic state which revels is sticking up two fingers to Europe, and picking fights with anybody. To all those veterans and European citizens who had to rebuild Europe after two grievous World Wars, the current attitude, conduct and crass behaviour of the UK is a f*!#!*ng embarrassment. The “winners” of WW2 who learned fk all.

    43. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scot Finlayson says: 8 June, 2019 at 9:27 am:

      ” … Is that a Royal Navy badge on the beret

      Yes Scot it is.

      ” … my dad was in the RN,served on the Indefatigable (Carrier) and Obedient (Destroyer),”

      Incidentally both my uncles on my mother’s side served on the -Indefatigable.

      Both uncles were born in the Hutcheson area of Edinburgh.

    44. Capella says:

      @ Davis Smith 10.25 – I agree. That seems to be the underlying message of Alan Clark’s “Barbarossa”, the history of the Russian campaign and its aftermath. Stalingrad was the turning point in WW2, not D-Day. Churchill acknowledged that.

    45. Bob Mack says:

      It was very clear the veterans were there only to honour their friends and comrades who perished. There was no talk of glory or triumphalism from them.

      That only came from politicians and media who had never experienced this type of war.

      They fought for a safer world only to have that goal snatched away for political need. As long as countries are led by those who have designs on land and resources of other lands, war will always feature. The memory is betrayed time and time again but covered up as being unavoidable. It is totally avoidable as we know.

      Hats off and respect to the men who fought for something noble in beating a murderous regime who slaughtered millions for ideology. They deserve that much.


    46. Jock Wishart says:

      Still led by donkeys.

    47. Socrates MacSporran says:


      So much for staunch Unionism. Brian Donohoe, prominent Rangers supporter, gets a knighthood in the Birthday Honours List.

      John Reid, prominent Celtic supporter and past club chairman, a man who is is said: “knows the words to every Irish rebel song ever written,” got a seat in the House of Lords.

      Just sayin’ like.

    48. HandandShrimp says:


      Our sectarian squabbles are of no interest to London. Their services to Better Together were.

    49. Ahundredthidiot says:

      Breeks – no, sorry, this is anti american and simply because it is popular at the moment. Why not use a CCTV camera? or a kitted out cop in black? it would make it more real.

      All other points agreed though.

      This focus on Trump worries me as the US builds the case for war on Iran – suggest refer to Wesley Clark on youtube around 2001 or 2002 for better context.

      War with Iran means war with Russia. China will follow…..and everyone is watching Trump…….jeez

    50. Iain mhor says:

      @Athanasius 7:49am

      Having lived through many warmongering American presidents and their UK counterparts – that’s pretty much the answer. People may be concerned Donald ‘ fuck your Scottish Independence’ Trump might accidentally start a war – ‘accidentally’ is the key, Hilary would have had America in Iran by now.

      Truman didn’t last after canning McArthur, Clinton was skelped down by Powell, and Barack ‘fuck your Scottish Independence’ Obama, took a telling from Patreus & McChrystal. Trump doesn’t do ‘military’ or take a telling as well they knew. Nor is he averse to randomly firing anyone who isn’t a lickspittle, he’s a liability to a military who requires a president to be pliably ‘on message’.
      Trump is fuckwit with attention span of a goldfish, they couldn’t follow him with radar. Probably all he is achieving (like Rumsfeld for Bush) is publically upsetting and fragmenting the military and causing dissention in the ranks.

      Tweeting random calls for the military to openly engage in ‘illegal practices’ doesn’t go down well for a complex that relies on the canard of being the “good guys’ – torture and war crimes are supposed to be ‘under the counter’ not policy. Generals have difficulty giving those sort of orders to the kids and convince them they’re still the goodies (under Rumsfeld many didn’t comply) Morale takes a beating, the Warmongering mask of ideology slips – the public looks closer and asks questions. Having steadied the ship to a degree with a compliant Obama, the Joint Chiefs are synchronised facepalming.

      Pretty much Trump is the epitome of a loose cannon and the military loathe him. They loathed the very idea of him being president well before he achieved office and kicked off the anti-trump campaigning even then. whether annoying the American military is a good thing remains to be seen.

      Anyway – We have our own issues, not least American Presidents and their ‘Fuck your Scottish Independence’ attitude – the nadir being Obama in 2014 – the cunt.

    51. Ahundredthidiot says:

      Iain Mhor re Obama

      I think you are being too kind to him!

    52. Proud Cybernat says:

      Is that Trump tweeting “The Moon is part of Mars”?

      Excellent as per, Chris.

    53. Hamish100 says:

      Clinton would not have US in Iran by now.

      Why? She is too smart. Iran Russia are pals. US is increasingly worried by China.US power is immense but it is diminishing slowly but surely as others are increasing. Clinton knows this.

    54. schrodingers cat says:

      Brian Donohoe………… hope he is being lined up for greatness in bt2

      the man is a complete bell end

      bring it on

    55. schrodingers cat says:

      this brian donohoe

      AN ex-Scottish Labour MP who lost his seat in last week’s election rout says he’s relieved he can now tell his former constituents to “f*** off.”

      Brian Donohoe made the comments in an an interview after losing his Central Ayrshire seat to Philippa Whitford of the SNP by a majority of more than 13,000.

      The 66-year-old said he was “disappointed” at the results after a 23-year stint in the Commons.

      He told the Irvine Times today: “I’m of an age where I can now turn round with the greatest delight and tell people to ‘f*** off’ which I haven’t been able to do for a hell of a long time in both my trade union life and also in this one.

      “You have to take all sorts coming through the door and be kind, considerate and generous with your time and sometimes you wonder why.

      “But at the end of it you’re there and I’ve always made the pledge as an MP that I wasn’t just there to represent the people who voted for me, I was there to help.”

      Mr Donohoe said he had a “fantastic team” during his time in the Commons and was sorry it is being broken up.”

      He added: “The people will have to live with what they’ve done.

    56. kapelmeister says:

      Michael Gove admits to taking a fair bit of cocaine 20 years ago.

      That’s really letting the side down Michael. A Scot in London doing posh cocaine. And there you were back then trying so hard to promote negative stereotypes of Scots. Couldn’t you have been on heroin, Special Brew and deep fried Mars Bars instead?

    57. Golfnut says:

      @ Shrodingers Cat.

      Was he not the idiot who told us their were Russian subs in the Clyde during indyref 1.

    58. Macart says:

      That’s a keeper Chris.

    59. @Robert Peffers,

      When at sea on the `Indi`my dad was helping transfer diesel fuel/fuel oil from a support ship,

      all the crews from both ships were out watching,

      my dad had to go up to the main deck to update proceedings to one of the officers,

      he snapped to attention,

      but a little bit of deisel on his boots and a wet deck and he was up in the air and landed flat out in front of the officer,

      almost 2000 sailors burst out laughing all at once,

      apart from the officer,who wizny happy.

    60. Doug says:

      One cartoon of CC can sum it all up much more truthfully than pages and pages of Britnat media pomposity.

    61. Lenny Hartley says:

      Golfnut, off course there have been Russian Subs in the Clyde, nato hunter killer nukes also enter Russian Territorial waters, its all part of the game.
      Do not ask me how I know but I do.

    62. Jack Murphy says:

      Regarding the newly Knighted Labour’s Sir Brian Donohoe, Golfnut asked at 12:22 pm:

      “Was he not the idiot who told us their were Russian subs in the Clyde during indyref 1.”
      Yes he was,during an interjection in the Commons in 2015.


    63. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scot Finlayson says: 8 June, 2019 at 12:26 pm:

      ” … almost 2000 sailors burst out laughing all at once,
      apart from the officer,who wizny happy.”

      Great story, Scot, there was always great humour on warships.

      The unfortunate thing about wartime RN ships was that they stepped up the crew numbers by at least double and more often treble in number. This meant not only packed mess decks but also hammock bars along every companionway. There was also the fact that ships were locked down with every porthole and door fastened down tightly.

      This was the perfect conditions for spreading the Tuberculosis that was rife in the wartime years and for quite some time afterwards.

      Many crew members were demobbed and then found to have TB and their families were then subsequently also infected.

      The wartime death toll did not stop with the end of WWII.

    64. Yesitis says:

      A striking and somewhat depressing image, Chris. But then some of the best are warnings or wake-up calls, and this couldn’t be more stark.

    65. galamcennalath says:

      Muscleguy says:
      at 9:53 am

      British ‘we fought for democracy’ under FPTP doesn’t work since the breakdown of binary party politics.

      In terms of delivering democracy, I would suggest it has never worked since WW2.

      Some of the ‘winners’ ….

      1945 Attlee 47.7%
      1955 Eden 49.7%
      1964 Wilson 44.1%
      1970 Heath 46.4%
      1979 Thatcher 43.9%
      1997 Blair 43.2%
      2015 Cameron 36.9%

      … no PM / party has won 50% since WW2. And yet think of what some of these did, good and bad. But they still didn’t have the democratic backing of a majority of voters.

      If the UK had adopted a PR voting system, like the rest of the democratic world, it would have taken a totally different course. Whatever it might have been, at least it would have had voter backing.

    66. galamcennalath says:

      Robert Peffers says:

      The wartime death toll did not stop with the end of WWII.

      My uncle died not long after WW2 having had a thoroughly awful time. He died of leukaemia leaving my aunt with two young children.

      My mother was a nurse in the late 40s into 50s. She said that leukaemia was quite common among young men returning from the war. Basically, she reckoned there was an epidemic.

    67. Breeks says:

      20 years ago eh Gove? Round about this time mibees? –

      That contemptible wee piece of shit Gove has the brass neck to smear Scots as drunks on the embankment with their hands outstretched for money, then go for a snort of coke when he came off stage. What a loathsome hypocritical wee fuck.

      The wee prick’s like a turd that won’t flush away.

    68. Ghillie says:

      Yes Sir. It was.

      Thankyou thankyou xxx

    69. HandandShrimp says:

      Wasn’t Donohoe’s farewell to the voters a simple ”
      Fuck off”?

    70. Caught a glimpse of the front of the National,

      Dan Snow supporting an Indy2 referendum,

      the gammons will be cooked even pinker when they see that,

      well done Stu/National.

    71. call me dave says:

      Another really thought provoking cartoon.
      Much respect to all those then who knew it was worth it.


      Shortbread website:
      Labour to decide Brexit referendum policy

      Oh wait! Once inside it’s… err..uhm!
      Scottish Labour to decide second Brexit referendum policy. 🙂

      Jings ‘twig office’ Dick, it’s Jeremy that will decide 🙁

    72. Mary miles says:

      From Tassie

      My Grandfather (maternal) served in the First World War with the Gordon Highlanders. I am glad he didn’t live to see the Regiment of which he was so proud dispensed with by an uncaring Westminster government in 1994. He was wounded twice in the war and was only 65 when he passed away. I wish I had been old enough to discuss his experiences with him and ask what his views were towards the end of his life.

      He was a lovely man (an Aberdonian) just one of the many treated as canon fodder by those declaring honour for themselves and making money from the misery of war.

      Hopefully one day the world will be a better place for everyone.

    73. CameronB Brodie says:

      The full-English Brexit is a right-wing coupe that undermines the potential for effective international jurisprudence and stuff. Follow the (dark) money.

      Brexit: No Happy Endings

      I can think of no ‘happy ending’ scenario to this unfolding saga: like malaria, it is a malaise that has nested since British accession back in 1973, and erupts from time to time, though the current eruption is potentially of fatal proportions.

      One cannot overstate the damage that a full-fledged exit of Britain will inflict on the EU. The importance goes well beyond the specificities of the functioning of the Union. It will survive and continue to function, even perhaps in some respects with less engine-room screeching. But as a global presence in the world, shaping and reshaping the impact will be huge, and to the detriment of the UK, the Union and the world. And internally, though not much might change on the surface, it will at the deepest spiritual level of European integration – and make no mistake, at its core the European construct has always been more than a functional, utilitarian enterprise – the damage will be equally shattering.

      There are many in Britain who are sceptical about the benefits of British membership. But if Brexit results from a referendum vote, it is quite likely that it will be an English exit majority, with the opposite outcome in Scotland – almost inevitably leading to a Scottish exit from the UK, a catastrophic result by all accounts for the UK….

    74. geeo says:

      galamcennalath @1.22pm

      Re: FPTP

      After the war in 1945 when the uk were in charge of ‘their’ zone in post war Germany, they tried to introduce FPTP into German politics.

      They were quickly reminded by German people,that previous to Nazi politics, Germany had a history of regional politics they were proud of, and the idea of FPTP was quickly shelved.

      By weird coincidence, i was just reading about this earlier this morning !!

    75. CameronB Brodie says:

      In light of the military grade psychological advertising campaign that almost certainly swung the EU referendum, here’s one in support of democracy in the 21st century. Sure, the EU has problems but that has little to do with Scotland’s self-determination. It is clear that Scotland is not afforded equal legal status within Yoonyawn, and will never prosper while under the ‘legal’ domination of Westminster. Time Scots were reunited with their popular sovereignty. This is essential to protect democracy in Scotland and the human rights of those living in Scotland.

      Upholding Democracy Amid the Challenges of New Technology: What Role for the Law of Global Governance?


      The law on global governance that emerged after World War II was grounded in irrefutable trust in international organizations and an assumption that their subjection to legal discipline and judicial review would be unnecessary and, in fact, detrimental to their success. The law that evolved systematically insulated international organizations from internal and external scrutiny and absolved them of any inherent legal obligations – and, to a degree, continues to do so.

      Indeed, it was only well after the end of the Cold War that mistrust in global governance began to trickle through into the legal discourse and the realization gradually took hold that the operation of international organizations needed to be subject to the disciplining power of the law. Since the mid-1990s, scholars have sought to identify the conditions under which trust in global bodies can be regained, mainly by borrowing and adapting domestic public law precepts that emphasize accountability through communications with those affected.

      Today, although a ‘culture of accountability’ may have taken root, its legal tools are still shaping up and are often contested. More importantly, these communicative tools are ill-equipped to address the new modalities of governance that are based on decision making by machines using raw data (rather than two-way exchange with stakeholders) as their input. The new information and communication technologies challenge the foundational premise of the accountability school – that ‘the more communication, the better’ – as voters turned users obtain their information from increasingly fragmented and privatized marketplaces of ideas that are manipulated for economic and political gain.

      In this article, I describe and analyse how the law has evolved to acknowledge the need for accountability, how it has designed norms for this purpose and continues in this endeavour, yet also how the challenges it faces today are leaving its most fundamental assumptions open to question. I argue that, given the growing influence of public and private global governance bodies on our daily lives and the shape of our political communities, the task of the law of global governance is no longer limited to ensuring the accountability of global bodies but also serves to protect human dignity and the very viability of the democratic state.

    76. gus1940 says:

      Re Russian subs in The Clyde and W. Approaches I suppose the Sea Kings that used to be stationed at Prestwick were three just for fun.

    77. Robert Peffers says:

      @galamcennalath says: 8 June, 2019 at 1:29 pm:

      … He died of leukaemia leaving my aunt with two young children.
      My mother was a nurse in the late 40s into 50s. She said that leukaemia was quite common among young men returning from the war.”

      I’ve mentioned on Wings before that I spent many years in my time as an Industrial Civil Servant working for the MOD. I worked in the RADIAC LAB so working to save lives and prevent injury and such like.

      Now the main part of the job was on such things as Geiger Counters and other radiation detection equipment but we also got stuck with some germ and chemical warfare detecting equipment.

      Anyway working on this stuff meant we had to learn how these type of weapons affected humans and that meant attending courses at the Institute of Naval Medicine and other top secret government establishments including Porton Down.

      Sometimes we were shown old wartime films of things done with these new style weapons including atom/nuclear bombs and shells. To my horror I discovered that United Kingdom Service personnel had been used in many of these experiments. Particularly horrific was a film showing how nerve gas and nerve chemicals affected humans.

      To see service persons affected by such weapons was not pleasant and neither was one film in particular that showed UK servicemen placed at various distances from the Bikini Atoll nuclear test.

      There can be absolutely no doubt that these men were exposed to dangerous flash effects and fallout. Not only that but I saw none of them even wearing dark glasses to protect a little from the flash. I have no doubt some must have suffered ill effects in later life, including leukaemia.

    78. cassandra says:

      What illustrious and important careers some have had here! I’m surprised they haven’t been awarded a bauble for services to the British Empire.

      How many cover ups did they come across?

      Why don’t they do the right thing and blow a whistle or two? Or is it all the usual puff and pish they spout here to make themselves sound far more important than they ever were ?

      It makes you wonder about about those who choose to serve the British State in peace time, to whom are they really loyal?

    79. CameronB Brodie says:

      The full-English Brexit needs to be understood as a fundamental attack on human rights and the rule-of-law. This is not a healthy direction of travel. Some ‘spam’ for those prepared to give the Tories the benefit of doubt.

      Redesigning the European Court of Human Rights: Embeddedness as a Deep Structural Principle of the European Human Rights Regime


      The European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) is the crown jewel of the world’s most advanced international system for protecting civil and political liberties. In recent years, however, the ECtHR has become a victim of its own success. The Court now faces a docket crisis of massive proportions, the consequence of the growing number of states subject to its jurisdiction, its favourable public reputation, its expansive interpretations of individual liberties, a distrust of domestic judiciaries in some countries, and entrenched human rights problems in others.

      In response to this growing backlog of individual complaints, the Council of Europe has, over the last five years, considered numerous proposals to restructure the European human rights regime and redesign the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR). This article argues that these proposals should be understood not as ministerial changes in supranational judicial procedure, nor as resolving a debate over whether the ECtHR should strive for individual or constitutional justice, but rather as raising more fundamental questions concerning the Court’s future identity.

      In particular, the article argues for recognition of ‘embeddedness’ in national legal systems as a deep structural principle of the ECHR, a principle that functions as a necessary counterpoint to the subsidiary doctrine that has animated the Convention since its founding. Embeddedness does not substitute ECtHR rulings for the decisions of national parliaments or domestic courts. Rather, it requires the Council of Europe and the Court to bolster the mechanisms for governments to remedy human rights violations at home, obviating the need for individuals to seek supranational relief and restoring countries to a position in which the ECtHR’s deference to national decision-makers is appropriate.

    80. Golfnut says:

      @ Lenny Hartley.

      Of course Russian subs visit our coastal waters, I think most people would have known that, and I’m pretty certain most people would know exactly why he said it.

    81. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sometimes cultural traditions can be harmful (see British nationalism and the full-English Brexit).

      Human Rights and the Magic of Jus Cogens


      There is an almost intrinsic relationship between jus cogens and human rights. Peremptory human rights norms, as projections of the individual and collective conscience, materialize as powerful collective beliefs. As such, they inherently possess an extraordinary force of social attraction that has an almost magical character. This article investigates the legal effects of peremptory human rights norms at both the systemic and contextual levels. If these norms have been successful in providing the societal body with a set of identity values, they have dramatically failed to operate as an ordering factor of social practices. To wonder why this is so and to see what can be done (and by whom) to enhance their impact on the contextual level is the main goal of this article.


    82. Gary45% says:

      A belter of a “Toon”, “Agent orange” lurking in the background.
      Nice One.

    83. Phil says:

      Clootie says:
      8 June, 2019 at 8:55 am

      The best any nation has yet achieved is the illusion of democracy. If the powerful do not have control of the monarch or president then they replace them. They always have control of the media. …etc

      Well summed up Clootie.

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