Apropos of nothing
Posted on
August 27, 2012 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
It’s funny how often we get accused of being slavish SNP devotees and “cybernats” here at Wings Over Scotland. In reality, while I can’t speak for the other contributors, I’ve voted Liberal Democrat at every election for the past 21 years. (Although I never will again, after the series of betrayals in 2010 and beyond.) Just thought I’d mention it.
You must be glad to get that off your chest. Phew!
Slow learner?
The sense of shame is deep and very real.
Just keep walking towards the Light, Rev.
I’m actually so disillusioned with the travesty of democracy offered down here I’ve let myself fall off the electoral register. Didn’t do it on purpose, but as I can’t begin to imagine who I’ll vote for next time I haven’t exactly bust a gut to fix it. Must sort that out.
If it EVER gets too much for you again Stu you can always visit “the DARKENED ROOM.”
I’ve voted Labour twice and SSP once. In your company I’m a saint :O)
Don’t feel too bad, Stu.
I was a member of the Workers Revolutinary Party in the late ’70’s, and was raided by Special Branch.
Mind you, that had a lot to do with a certain young German lady i was in love with at the time.
Sadly, the LibDems were always the repository of all our faith in humanity and hopes for the future and the prospect of a utopia of a different polictics – and they probably saw themselves in the same way as they never had any chance of power before.
However, the first whiff of government and ministerial perks in a century and it all just unravelled in the most horrendous, shocking and unprincipled way, so I’m not surprised you’re disilllusioned Rev. I mean when you look at Jim Wallace and his ilk now, one thinks, how can we have not seen it?
Did you not notice Jim Wallace sell his priciples for a ministerisl car in the 1st Scottish Parlilament? Why did you think they’d be different down there?
@Juteman
Was it Rosa Luxemburg?
I was assuming either Baader or Meinhof. One of them was a girl, right?
The final demise of democracy (I use that word knowing I’m on dodgy ground) in the UK came ahead of 1997 when Labour jumped massively to the right. Turnout until that point was on average 77%, not bad for an FPTP system.
Blair was right when he said ‘a new dawn has broken’. Aye, the neo-liberal conseneus had begun.
Turnout plunged immeadiately, averaging just 62% 2001-2010; 15% gave up just like that. Even after the economic disaster 2008 onwards – surely time for a huge sweeping change of government – only 65% turned out in 2010 resulting in a weak, failing coalition.
The UK has some of the lowest turnouts for elections in Europe now for good reason, all you are choosing is tie colour. No left, no liberal, just right-authoritarian. What’s the point.
I share your shame rev. I did not vote for them, but for a time I had some misplaced hope that the libs might take the most seats in 2010; polls were saying maybe… Seeing them after a little taste of power makes me very glad they did not win.
A bit too old for a ’70’s teenager, Major.
Nobody famous, just someone i met on a demonstration, and ‘helped’ me decide to join the party.:-)
Major
I was about to reply to your post re LibDem principles citing Mondeo Man Jim Wallace when I was beaten to the punch by Erchie.
Erchie, how a propos.
Am i being a conspiracy theorist here? The NewLab and Tories seem hell bent on copying the US system, ie 2 parties, little difference.
Maybe Nick Clegg was in on this ages ago. Destroy the Liberals, and voila!
@Erchie & James McLaren
I obviously wasn’t paying much attention whilst the LibDems and Labour where in power at Holyrood…. mind you, they didn’t achieve that much so it is perhaps understandable.
If it’s any consolation I voted Social Democrats (as they were then) when i was eighteen. They say that confession is good for the soul.
They’ll call you a Cybernat coz you’re a terrible person. You speak the truth.
Juteman
I have always believed and often theorised that the secession of Scotland would, initially anway, be in the interests of Cameron to cut off an important source of Westminster seats for Labour and, enable a longer term Tory hegemony, certainly after boundary changes.
Nick Clegg has done his job, destroyed the electoral cradibility of the Libs and he will surely jump ship to the Tories soon, leaving the hard core to wonder back into the desert of middle class hope.
Labour will be freed to compete on a SE England ticket without having the cognitive dissonance of new Labour and Socialism baggage
It is the bit in between which is important for us.
I feel, in my waters, that Salmond has this taped.
I think a deal, deniable, has been done. Nudge nudge, wink wink.
The only things to be decided are the markers on the path to fulfilling the requirements for the BIG one
You take the Red pill or the Blue one, but only if you are outside Scotland.
As a dedicated Google user and as someone who fondly remembers the old AltaVista search engine with its boolean logic search functions I often play the, “Hunt the federal policy”, game on the lib-dem website.
To win this game you have to find a policy on their website which either advocates federal parliaments for NI, Wales, Scotland and England or a written constitution for a federal UK.
I haven’t won yet but it’s fun trying.
Well…..if it’s confession time, I voted for them once as well – at my very first election when I turned 18, but they were just “Liberals” then. I haven’t liked them much since they became Lib Dems – although I loved the Spitting Image puppets of Big David and Little David.
What I do like, though, is when one of them “goes rogue” – Don’t think I’ll ever forget the huge smile on Judy Steele’s face as she announced she was voting for independence. I had visions of Little David just holding his head in his hands.
Juteman.
interesting. Remember when AS had a meeting with Osborne in London. About a year ago? He was seen waking down the street punching the air, after it.
I remember reading an article (can’t remember where) that Osborne told him that he can have anything he wants apart from defence and foreign affairs. Thought it was crap then and still do. But, the Nato u-turn?
MajorBloodnok
I remember well when wee Jim Wallace received his Ministerial Mondeo, and it was a Top Range Mondeo too!
He looked like a little virgin undergraduate who had been invited to a whore’s wedding and, in the raffle, had won first prize. Priceless
I wonder if that piece of political film history is still available somewhere, somehow.?
It would be worth the death of the Scottish LibDems if it could be surfaced.
It might even be in the BBC archives so, that means it has been “redacted.”
Something tells me it was on STV, in front of Bute House too.
Anybody out there can winkle it out of the archives?
A bottle of Bolly awaits the succesful gravedigger disinterring this one.
@James McLaren
Aha! I can just imagine it (shudder).
I too am a former Liberal voter – but NOT LibDem. I never was really sold on the “new” party after the merger with the SDP. It always fascinated me that while the Liberals were unelectable (certainly under FPTP) many of their ideas found there way into the manifesto of the Labour party – when it was at least pretending to be socialist.
All that has gone now. the final vestige of “Liberalism” died with the rise to prominence of the “Orange book” liberals – essentially they are/were just orange Tories.
The rUK has no one to vote for as they are all basically the same. As scottish_skier says, English voters have only choice of tie colour, and no choice in policy.
What continues to amaze me is that, apparently, many Scottish voters just can’t see this!
@James McLaren
Dave can’t win the next GE without losing Scotland, either to devo max or independence. It’s not just 2014, but 2015 and 2016. Three bites at the cherry in succession. The Tories are screwed in Scotland for good and many backbenchers would like to see us gone. Labour is the joint enemy of both parties. The SNP can help with the boundary changes too…
With a referendum on independence just 2 years away and everything at stake (G8, trident, UNSC seat, plain old pride), the concept that the No 10 is not talking to AS and co behind closed doors is laughable. The Tories are not stupid; they knew this would happen and said so back in 1997, just omitting to add it would be them coming back to power that would be the final straw.
Ideal scenario for the Tories is Scotland ‘independent’ but within a monetary union / fiscal pact / joint defense agreement (inc NATO membership) with the UK, both maintaining equal successor state status in the EU etc. A union more akin to the EU, but for the UK. No nasty shocks to the system initially, buying the Tories some time to move trident and whatnot.
If Cammy gets the boundary changes though, loses the Scots Labour MPs under the new union ‘arrangement’ and can sell that arrangement as a ‘new, modern UK union’ (even though it is ultimately independence for Scotland), the Tories will be on for a win in 2015, especially if they can get the economy going. Expect sudden large investments in infrastructure at the opportune moment; GDP will rise in response.
Peter Cruddas just let slip the obvious. Cammy is going to piss of Scotland at some point big time by butting in again. He’ll be doing it intentionally, as he already has been.
Tories are just using Labour right now re better together. Darling’s sweating because he knows this and is in fear of what the Scottish and UK Governments are talking about without him.
Speculation? Maybe, but the Tories are fools if they think they can win in 2015 without the UK falling apart spectacularly. Best plan ahead.
I feel your pain Rev. Stu.
My name is Andy, and I’m a recovering LibDem voter. It’s hard not to feel dirty sometimes I know. In my defence, it wasn’t for any great love of the LD’s as such, but more to do with the lack of plausible alternatives. I could never bring myself to vote for the Labour party of Michael Foot’s “longest suicide note in history”, still less the nauseating New Labour project.
Having moved to deepest, darkest blue Sussex, the LD’s were the only possible way to try and stop the Tories (a pretty faint hope sadly.. the Tory vote increased here at the last GE I seem to recall!).
I also feel somewhat at a loss; I’m a voter without anywhere to go politically. I will probably vote Green more as a protest vote than for any great enthusiasm, tho I like some of their platform and their radicalism. Absent meaningful electoral reform, my vote is wasted. England (and due to the disparity in sizes of the constituent parts) the UK as a whole, is I fear sinking back into the sterile to and fro between Labour and Tories, with remarkably little to chose between them.
The rump LD’s can’t really be trusted now, and I’m not sure I’d even welcome them holding the balance of power again. I have little hope that the Labour party can be rendered fit for purpose… altogether too many Blairite “bitter einders” still infect it. One only has to look at the (lack) of quality of some of the Scottish Labour placemen to see that they are in deep trouble. Even if they manage to win in 2015, how much different would they really be from the Cameroons? In degree perhaps…but in actual content….? I don’t think so somehow.
Scotland has a chance in 2014 to change things for the better not only north of the Tweed, but in the rest of the UK. I’m now a passionate believer in independence, having made the journey via hopes of a federal solution, and a more progressive UK. I honestly believe that the fracturing of the Union is the last, best hope of consigning the deeply flawed and anachronistic UK system to the dustbin of history where it belongs.
Enough and more than enough of that parcel of rogues. Having staggered successively from MP’s expenses, to phone hacking, the LIBOR scandal, the baling out of the banking system, to the omni-shambles of the Coalition, we can now see that a turd, however lovingly polished, remains a turd.
Scottish Slier
We are singing from the same hymn sheet.
The key is to make a bridge for Cameron et al to retreat back over.
I think that if Salmond can concoct a deal whereby Camneron can reatin his seat on the UN Security Council, G8 (Scotland staying in the Sterling Zone) and Trident (big and difficult one for Salmond) the SNP will be home and dry.
That is assuming the SNP and Cameron are doing the deal. If anything moves to disturb that equilibrium, (e.g a Westminster GE and Labour taking control) all bests could be off.
A Labour win would turn everything on its head.
The tories need to hold on, for their longterm survival.
Never voted or supported Libdems so never personally ‘betrayed’, but they definitely let Scotland down in 2007. They could have had a coalition with the SNP and a refrendum that would have voted for devo max/federalism. Instead they put London’s ineterests first (remember Campbell going to Downing Street at the time).
On the plus side, they brought in PR for local government, and Charles Kennedy and David Steel I found admirable enough despite their constitutional preferences.
And at how many of those elections did the SNP put up a candidate in Bath?
Dg
I think he was talking mataphorically.
Back to sleep DG.
Rev
For my sins , I have a bigger confession to make . I once voted tory . After that I became a shop steward and labour activist until I became disillusioned with the whole corrupt system .
Okay, whose going to be the first to admit to voting Glasgow SLAB, or are some things too depraved to be confessed to?
@James McLaren
Aye.
Here’s a ballot question for those waverers.
Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent, sovereign state within the Union of the United Kingdom?
(think an EU style loser union for the UK based on common interests).
Better together – a united kingdom and aw that. Labour would s**t bricks at that question.
The English National Party (Tories) and the SNP discussing the way forward makes perfect sense. While the may share different stances for their respective countries, they do have common goals.
As for Westminster threats to hold their own referendum. Thinking about it again… Would be a masterplan for Dave and Alex. Dave muscles in, AS fights him off, support for independence rockets, especially given the question now looks like the above – safe. Like devo max, but with bells on. Meanwhile, sovereignty is secured.
I regret to advise I also voted LibDem at the last UK GE
My first and only time to be sure, but alas, i was one of the weird voters; whom until then voted Labour for UK and SNP for Scotland.
Now, I haven’t a clue who to vote for in the UK GE (the very last one we vote in I hope)
Once in Battersea, England I voted for the old Liberal Party at a local election in 1980. Ecology Party in the 1984 Euro Election in Hackney. SNP for parliament since I was able to vote and the SNP first candidate in the seat in 1970, still kept my name on the electoral register at ‘home’ so I could vote for the SNP whilst I was south of the border. I have to confess to voting Tory in the 1974 local election as I detested the Labour councillor. Still having therapy for voting Tory once.
Here is a vote winner for the Indpendence Referendum and for Cameron as well.
Cameroon appoints Boris as Minister for Scotland the referendum.
Game over and Cameron can blame his heir apparent for the disaster. He then enters into intense negotiations with AS and secures all the things he need to retreat over that Golden Bridge of agreed defeat.
Coming to a Scottish passport office near you soon.
GET YOUR ORDERS IN EARLY! :lol:
link to facebook.com
Looks like the Tories are about ready to finally cut down that tree, or whatever it was, that has been their “emblem” for the last few years.
link to newsnetscotland.com
Just like the Tories, Scottish or otherwise, thinking that changing their emblem to a thistle will be enough to make them more acceptable to the Scottish electorate. Look at us, We’re the Scottish Tories. Here, see we have our own Scottish emblem and everything. Our emblem is a Scottish thistle. Surely this proves that we are Scottish and have Scotland at heart?
Erm, no it doesnae ya dunderheid. It will tak’ mair than a few Tory numpties grasping ontae a thistle tae persuade me to even consider, considering to think about thinking about onything positive about the Tories.
Tories. There are a few up here. You see them driving around and stuff. Got to keep your eyes open though.
@Arbroath 1320 says:
You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.
As for the Liberal Democrats, this is an extract from their constitution:
“We believe that sovereignty rests with the people and that authority in a democracy derives from the people. We therefore acknowledge their right to determine the form of government best suited to their needs…”
Except for Scotland, apparently.
JUST ANOTHER BETRAYAL
wulie:
You’ve got to have the full quote. The Lib-Dems believe that you can have as much power as you like as long as you don’t break the Union.
“We therefore acknowledge their right to determine the form of government best suited to their needs and commit ourselves to the promotion of a democratic federal framework within which as much power as feasible is exercised by the nations and regions of the United Kingdom.”
They’ve not betrayed their principles. They were hard core unionist from the start and they still are.
Er, “Rev”, you live in Bath.
No SNP to vote for.
What exactly are you trying to prove with this soi-disant “revelation”?
sm753
Would it be a revelation to find that you had actually read the article?
Apropos of nothing…
link to road.cc
@Seasick Dave
That can’t be right. Surely they don’t want separate cycle lanes – that would be madness. Obviously cars and cycles should occupy the same road space and would therefore be ‘better together’, to coin a phrase.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
August 27, 2012 at 3:46 pm
I was assuming either Baader or Meinhof. One of them was a girl, right?
That was Ulrike Meinhof but it was Gudrun Ensslin who was the eye candy…….Set many a young revolutionary lads heart a flutter.
@seasick dave
The ability to pedal more furiously in circles than everyone else is crucial with respect to the constitutional future of nations.
Hoy has at least twice in the last week or so intimated that he won’t be appearing in Politics nor the X-Factor….looks like wishful thinking by BitterTogether crew.
…although when it comes to cycling thighs is important.
Question; why don’t the English just vote for the Greens? They really do seem like the only left wing liberal party left down there…
“Question; why don’t the English just vote for the Greens? They really do seem like the only left wing liberal party left down there…”
Because while the rest of their manifesto is highly laudable, the Greens are defined by their environmental policies, and unfortunately most of those are barking mad. (Or to put it more kindly, somewhat in conflict with the necessary lifestyle of the average urban voter.)
Got to admit I voted red tory in 97 , never again and now a SNP card carrier who I have voted for ever since , just thought we needed to get away from blue tory , ,if it hadnt been for SNP I would have become disenfranchised with the whole system
I’ve only ever voted in England and Labour every time because I have to live here, I was a member of the Labour Party till they left me;-). The LibDems round here are barking so I’ve never been tempted. I’ve voted Green in Euro non-FTP elections and would be happy to vote for them in Scotland ina safe SNP seat as long as they support independence. The stuff they say about pensions and social wage (if they still do) make a lot of sense for giving a decent level of social support to everyone.
cheers
charlie
Thats nothing, i once voted tory, i was a brain washed young serviceman!
“,if it hadnt been for SNP I would have become disenfranchised with the whole system”
I think this is true for quite a few of us out there. There’s a great sense of detatchment from politics or the main political parties. Especially for the younger generations.