And now, a short film
Posted on
August 28, 2013 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
…about the sales figures of “regional” Scottish newspapers, released today:
Numbers (for Jan-June 2013, compared to the same period in 2012) are below.
Press & Journal: 65,500 (down 5%)
The Courier: 52,300 (down 7%)
The Herald: 41,000 (down 10%)
The Scotsman: 31,300 (down 17%)
Sunday Herald: 24,900 (down 13%)
Scotland On Sunday: 37,400 (down 20%)
Paisley Daily Express: 7,600 (up 10%)
For reference, this site had 74,000 unique readers in the last 30 days. So it seems that our monthly readership – and once again, this is an “apples and oranges” comparison purely for illustrative and fun purposes – is now bigger than the sales of the Herald and Scotsman put together.
That’s nice. That definitely seems nice.
The tripe in The Hootsmon probably gets far more exposure from us linking to it than from its own readership. Maybe it’s time to start just giving it the damned good ignoring it deserves.
“The tripe in The Hootsmon probably gets far more exposure from us linking to it than from its own readership. Maybe it’s time to start just giving it the damned good ignoring it deserves.”
Not above the line it doesn’t – archive.is all the way from now on.
If I never give another penny to the Johnston Press for the rest of my life – it will still be too soon. I also hold the advertisers responsible for supporting such rags and therefore boycott any corporation who continues to support them.
Did the JP really think they were not subject to market forces. If I was their bank, I would be getting rather concerned at this point.
The Hootsmon and it’s Sunday best seem to be in dire straights! Is it only it’s share-holders and paying friends,(paying for influence, a chance to have their views published and their protected wealth and status maintained), that are now buying the rag.
Seems people are voting already with their wallets!
Lanarkist.
Interesting that the notion oft floated here that the Sunday Herald would do well as a result (before it disgracefully ignored the WoS poll results, of course) of its ‘more favourable’ hearing given to pro-indy arguments is not reflected in its sales figures. Far from it.
and JP writes down the value of its titles by £200m, whilst insisting business is on the up
link to bbc.co.uk
Today it has been reported that Johnston Press has had to write down £200m off the value of their titles and print assets (mostly titles). About 90% of the Scotsman and SoS readership is in Edinburgh, the rest in the Borders and only handfuls everywhere else. Herald readership is primarily affluent Glasgow and again handfuls elsewhere.
Begs the question, at what point does the production of these publications cease to be viable?
It shows why we are going to be the only ones doing polls now, the papers can’t afford them.
Bee dee bee deee bee deep!
That’s All Folks!
I wonder what the break even point for the Scotsman is? At a loss of 17% per annum the Scotsman will have halved its present circulation in another four years down to under 15,000 copies if that loss rate continues.
Scotland has always had its own legal system, education system and press and nationalists have always been protective of them. Up to now that is. It really beggars belief that the ones least likely to shed a tear when the Scottish press goes under are the ones who normally would be the natural supporters of onetime Scottish institutions like the Scottish press.
It shows how pitiful the editorial decisions of the Scottish press have been. Rather than promote Scotland to keep their readership they’ve tried to be a northern outpost of the London based press who in terms of resources and circulation can outgun them anytime.
I still think the Sunday Herald has some plusses. The arts coverage, the stab at an internationalist approach. Sad thing is that when these go, there will be only the Observer, Sunday Times etc left.
“I still think the Sunday Herald has some plusses. The arts coverage, the stab at an internationalist approach.”
Definitely. Interesting that it fell a lot less than SoS.
Rev, in regards to “Wings” stats, I offer my congratulations, clearly the readership is very satisfied with the articles therein. Great stuff, on wards and upwards!
Well done !
I have to admit, I’m rather surprised to see that The Courier has a greater circulation than either The Scotsman or The Herald.
Do we have figures for the evening papers too?
I heard the Scottish Newspaper Society (?) man on GMS talk up the industry; still lots of hard copy readers in places like Dundee, Aberdeen (apparently the Tele has seen an increase in figures)digital reading on the rise etc, he seemed though to be on his lonesome.
I only caught the tail end of it so don’t know what went before and/or earlier to put the counter argument, did it happen?
Rev Stu,
Are these “paid for” figures or is the picture even worse? I posted at the time of the Open about 12 copies of The Scotsman lying about in a small railway carriage—not paid for, and tales of free copies in hotels etc.
Rev, your readership comparisons are invalid:- By eliminating journalistic principals, Ian Stewart continues the transformation of The Scotsman into a daily comic. And The Herald appears to have become the personal unionist loudhailer of the morbid Magnus Gardham. His miserable, scaremongering stories frequently laced with inaccuracies & bare faced lies, dull the senses & insult the intelligence of its readers.
Your site on the other hand conducts deeply analytical, inquisitive, incisive, meaningful journalistic investigations.
Neither print versions can last for much longer because the revenues from advertising, print sales & merchandise will no longer cover the fundamental costs of news gathering, printing, distribution, web management, labour, overheads, benefits, pensions & the servicing of short/long/revolving debt.
I’m expecting The Scotsman to collapse first at which point I shall be celebrating with a fine bottle of single malt whisky.
Pretty sure at one time the Courier had a bigger circulation than the Scotsman and Herald combined. (Round about Indy First days).
Also when a couple of mates and I hitched down to London as teenagers c 1969 we saw that it had an office on Fleet Street.
I still look forward to renewing my subscription to the Herald on 19th September next year. I can’t quite believe that after 25 years of trying hard to get in while I lived in England, and its regular morning supply being one of the things I looked forward to when I finally moved home, I’ve cancelled.
I hope I’ll still feel like renewing next year. I hope the paper will be worth buying. Perhaps I’m just getting so used to online news that it won’t be the same whatever happens.
@Seanair
At the Ed Book Festival, which the Scotsman seemed to be partly sponsoring, if you bought a copy of the paper you were given a few goodies in a Scotsman newspaper bag, that’s in the mix too.
Of course the Courier did the same at the Angus Show, business is business.
Reckon though DC’s know a lot more than the rest about keeping alive, shrewd move to take over the P and J. Not to mention all their other areas of interests.
@ChicMC
I’m pretty sure the Sunday Post/DC building still is in Fleet Street.
heraldnomore says:
“and JP writes down the value of its titles by £200m, whilst insisting business is on the up”
Pathological liars. Cant be honest to themselves never mind their readers.
FYI Scotsman and Herald have significantly more internet hits that Wings. Unless you do 500,000 a week.
“FYI Scotsman and Herald have significantly more internet hits that Wings”
Yes, I know they do. Hence the staggeringly clear and lengthy disclaimer about it not being a like-for-like comparison, you tool.
Unfortunately the print editions have far more political impact than their daily sales would suggest, with the front pages acting as free unionist billboards to many thousands of passers-by.
Rev, I must apologise for my news fixation and confess to having clicked through to JP articles many, many times over the last six months – that is until the start of this month. I look forward to the figures in another six months to get an idea of how many others have done as I have done.
I had a three month affair with the Sunday Herald earlier this year to read Ian Bell and some other journalists I respect, however I could no longer support this as a result of some of the DH nonsense.
I tend to get my news from yourself (of course), Democracy Now, Al Jazeera, Russia Today, AP , Reuters and others.
My sins above are, however, minor in comparison to my single, most disgusting heresy – I am compelled to say “My name is Xander, and I voted LibDem at the last WM election”. I shall beg forgiveness from the ill, the disabled, the unemployed, the disenfranchised and others when they come to crucify me – BUT they shouldn’t listen to such pleas as I clearly don’t deserve to live 🙂
““My name is Xander, and I voted LibDem at the last WM election””
You’re among friends and fellow sinners here, brother.
At the risk of appearing stupid is the Courier one newspaper or a combination of Inverness Courier, Dundee Courier etc.?
“At the risk of appearing stupid is the Courier one newspaper or a combination of Inverness Courier, Dundee Courier etc.?”
It’s all the Dundee/Fife/Perth etc ones. Dunno about Inverness. Don’t know where the Lothian Courier comes in, or indeed if the Lothian Courier is still published.
I cant remember the last time I bought a copies of the Press and Journal and Aberdeen Evening Express, must have been around August 1984 when my Father passed away. and only to get the “death notice”.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
that is all
Just out of curiosity Stu did you get the sales figures of the the Daily Record?
“Just out of curiosity Stu did you get the sales figures of the the Daily Record?”
No, I think this is the release of the regional figures only. Nationals usually follow soon after though, sometime in the next few days.
Just goes to show what a good job you are doing, I personally have stopped buying a daily paper, and only watch the BBC to see what project fear’s next update is , on the other hand , I check in with your site several times a day to see what’s REALLY happening .
Can you confirm that is an average per day sale during the period or total sales per month ? Surely the former.
“Can you confirm that is an average per day sale during the period or total sales per month ? Surely the former.”
Yes, the former.
Growing up in Dundee I did always find it strange how The Herald and The Scotsman were considered the big quality Scottish national papers. I did paper rounds for many years and The Courier and Evening Telegraph would be the only thing anyone ever wanted delivered. I always dreaded the Sunday Post round though because it seemed like every single house got it, heard it was the biggest selling paper per capita in the world at one point.
Its nice to see the mouthpiece of the unionist scare stories lose their readership in such numbers and long may it continue.
OT, just being nosey how is the crowd funding for the next poll doing ?
Hail Alba.
“OT, just being nosey how is the crowd funding for the next poll doing ?”
It’s static at just below £5,800.
@annie
The Courier has 6 editions, all pretty much the same inside but with smattering of local stories etc.
Inverness Courier not the same beast at all.
David
My folks only bought the Sunday Post for the Funny Papers. 🙂
Maybe if the so-called Scottish press talked Scotland up, instead of forever repeating the unending negative Unionist mantra running Scotland down, sales could perhaps improve. No-one wants to be constantly told how incompetent and incapable they and their fellow countrymen/women are – So who among us of an independence bent is going to rush out to buy a newspaper that adopts that tactic? The press in Scotland has isolated itself from a fair percentage of the population.
People want to hear good things about themselves and their countrymen/women. Generations ago it was positive press that instilled national pride and helped Britannia rule the waves. It is the constant negative press in Scotland that has helped instil the cringe. Anything in print that encourages Scottish national pride is suppressed by tacit censorship. Instead, they defame us to our faces with impunity.
I, for one, am sick to death of the constant negative tripe they push at you daily in great servings. Because of their ‘Our readers are stupid’ attitude I haven’t bought a paper in years, and never will again unless they change tack and start talking Scots and Scotland up.
bet none of these publications go bust before the referendum
The Guardian’s take as of 45 mins ago
link to archive.is
@jond
Thanks for posting that, it means the Scottish Newspaper Society bloke on GMS today was talking nonsense about the Evening Tele in Dundee.
Chic Macgregor
That Courier Sign is still on the side of the building on Fleet Street.
It’s a shame comments aren’t open on that article.
That Guardian article is amusing: apparently Newsquest publish a Glasgow Evening News as well as a Glasgow Evening Times, and their figures have fallen by precisely the same amounts.
Obviously some rationalisation is required: well, that or Mark Sweney needs to do a little proofreading…
Thanks Stu, no doubt we’ll all be looking forward to these figures with anticipation. 😆
Just cant get my head around the Daily Record, todays issue sees them berate Labour Councils, including (Stirling), they also give ATOS a right hard time as well.
The Daily Record then goes on to say a staggering amount of children in the Highlands rely on foodbanks for a decent meal, due to Westminster’s unfair policies.
One could be forgiven for thinking that deep down the Daily Record, is exposing the serious flaws of the union, in the hope that independence would be obtained.
Or is it all just my vivid imagination.
Rev Stu,
My question about “paid for”sales is answered in the Guardian click above. Paid for is 92% = 28,871 copies, which is the REAL figure with 8% freebies.
The East Lothian Courier had no connections with the other Couriers. It was a local independent paper for many years but now seems to be owned by Romanes Media Goup. Meanwhile the East Lothian News is a JP publication, with staff HQ’d at Barclay Towers in Edinburgh, but printed goodness knows where.
The Dundee Courier sells more in Fife than it does in Dundee according to retired colleagues who worked for DCT. The Evening Telegraph sells more in Dundee than the Courier.
BBC Scotlandshire 1600pm.
Just reported the fact that readership for the press has fallen as you stated, but, a spokesman for the industry said online figures have risen sharply.
Believe this if you like, I for one dont.
The lothian courier is indeed a johnstone press rag or was not so long ago……….hence the pictures of labour twats planting flowers in an oap home etc and a crap letters page.
The resurgence of politics in Scotland should have profited its national title, but it is now too late — the money’s running out
This link to bjr.org.uk about as good an analysis as you’ll get as to The Scotsman’s decline. Sad really – what could have been.
One could be forgiven for thinking that deep down the Daily Record, is exposing the serious flaws of the union, in the hope that independence would be obtained.
Nah! The DR is dutifully trying to lay the blame on the tories, in the hope that people will forget it was their beloved Labour party that started the rot.
“Begs the question, at what point does the production of these publications cease to be viable?”
Well for Johnson Press it is likely to be when the bank pulls the pin. If you look at the accounts they are basically insolvent, they have huge debt and most of the cashflow goes to paying interest on the debt not the debt itself. Plus they have a pension deficit. If you write off brand reputation (they have written that down themselves) they have negative tangible assets. Also they have just lost a key revenue generating printing contract which means future cashflow shall be reduced even further.
Looks like it is down to the Bank. They could ask shareholders for more cash but I think they would struggle with that.
Albalha, Dave,Steve
Copy that re Courier/Fleet Street, must say a wee bit surprised.
re Sunday post, I once as a boy, had a Guinness B.O.R. which listed it as having the highest saturation figure in the World, by quite a margin. Don’t know if it still does.
Chic
Not anymore. Here are the latest figures on the AllmediaScotland.com site for the Sunday Post;
The Sunday Post – 12.2 per cent drop = 188,131 to 165,130;
link to allmediascotland.com
Meanwhile Alan Cochrane continues his down spiral into journalistic drivel. He heard a story about a 9year old who was shouted in Edinburgh at for wearing a Union flag on his clothes. Cochrane pronounced all this poison in the debate must stop, from the ‘nats’ of course.
The multimillionaire Presidential candidates in the US all used to know a plumber, or perhaps it was a joiner, who used to tell them things about the US economy. Not all at the same time of course, usually just in time for the next speech each candidate was giving.
They had this invisible friend, Cochrane has stories he heard, probably from an invisible friend. Though the story is the father of the boy couldn’t catch the culprit and told the police. Maybe it was that big laddie who keeps doing things then runs away.
@chicmc
According to a quick Wikipedia look The Sunday Post did indeed hold a GBOR world record in the 1950s for having the ‘highest per capita readership penetration anywhere in the world’.
I was looking into some advertising a few years ago (maybe 2005) in the Dundee papers and the circulation figures I was given then were (I think)
The Courier sold 85000 of which maybe 25000 were in Dundee.
The Telegraph (TULLY!) sold 29000 of which 28000 were in Dundee.
Pretty sure those were the figures given, except I’m not certain of the 25K Courier one.
@Marcia
So how many ministers are there left? 😉
Tough titty.
That said, the Herald has bee giving us a fairer shout and if it continues so then one doesn’t wish to see Scotland’s only quality newspaper in the bin. The Scotsman is a tired, tiring BritNat joke and one hardly ever goes there any more – why would one wish to go somewhere only to be insulted?
Off-topic, but look who Nicola Sturgeon will be destroying in the next Scotland Tonight debate…
link to news.stv.tv
Oh dear so sad to hear of Scotsman’s difficulties, excuse me while I remove this lemon from my firm tongue in cheek
@ Brian Powell – Another classic is the ‘invisible friend’ in the audience that many Presidents or candidates point to and wave while at the podium. Reagan was great at this. It must achieve something subliminal in the viewer I guess.
TBF to the old Scotsman, the reporting staff did put up a staunch defence against its political cleansing, they even had a strike on editorial issues when the new proposed editor was to be Chris Baur (sp?) [the London face that appeared on our screens after the nat scare cull].
Mind you, the alternative, Linklater, was no nationalist. Finally they had to take even more drastic cleansing action a bit like taking a brillo to a fine old silver teapot. 😉
That’s as I remember it as a one time reader anyway.
Apparently, The Scotsman is getting an increasing proportion of its revenue from its website. I suggest that supporters of independence stop accessing it – why give them money to publish unionist propaganda? Let them rely on income from unionists on the web, as well as unionist buyers of the hard copy. You can see the headlines on Google, or find out about an article on WoS or access the archive – you already know what sort of stuff they write, and nothing will be a surprise. It’s not as if they’ll take any notice of the refutations and counter-arguments made by comments posted on their own webpages – it actually pays them to make us angry and indignant!
I do feel nostalgic for the old days of the Scotsman before Brillo. My brother in law and nephew both worked there and they actually had some good journalists as well.
Where is Rab Mcneil these days?
Ah, he’s on the Herald.
Pity.
Talking about journalists and their phantom friends, Simon Pia in the Courier has one known as a wise old nat. Naw! I don’t believe it either.
It would be interesting if someone did a FOI request to the police re Cockers story about the 8 year old kid.
Maybe it might produce the same result as the ‘vandalism’ at BT HQ?
The world has changed but it wasn’t that long ago (pre Andrew Neil) that the Scotsman circulation was closer to 100,000. I think print media is dying but some are pegging out faster than others.
Iain says:
The Scotsman …… increasing proportion of its revenue from its website. I suggest that supporters of independence stop accessing it
I agree Iain. I no longer click on links with the name of that newspaper in it. I am also going to keep an eye out for advertisers on it when I follow archive links.
Isn’t it just as likely that with people having to use food banks and with rent arrears courtesy of the bedroom tax money spent on newspapers would be considered money wasted.
Just read over the comments so far and confirmed the good company I am in. Maybe I share the idea of Roddy McDonald at the start. I have to confess a deep personal loathing of the Johnston Press organs in Edinburgh ( see I cannot even bring myself to name them ). Their commercial collapse is the second thing I want most in 2014 and the reason is not spiteful malice on my part but their cruel, calculated deception of the Scottish people whom they believe should be happy to exist as colonial subordinates in the non democracy which is the Union state
Maybe giving them zero coverage in Wings is the best way as Roddy suggests but equally I love it when the Rev butchers them over a particular propaganda item. Like Xander I too had a fetish for self abasement but have refused to give them any page hits recently. CAN ALL OF US ON WINGS AGREE NOT TO GO NEAR JOHNSTON PRESS AND TO USE TO USE ARCHIVE IS. This should be an article of faith among us all.
Does the figures include the giveaways?
Rev, am I right in saying that if you use ‘Archive.is’ to access sites like the Herald, Scotsman etc. then the hits don’t get recorded?
If this is so, then I suggest all on here should use this site to access theses sites to stop our hits being counted on the unionist propaganda newspapers.
@PRJ
As I understand it yes. The article higher up @jond posted details, for the Scotsman, the percentage of the overall total that is paid for.
The Scotsman management appear to be claiming that their overall readership has bottomed out because more people are reading their online edition.
No joke but could it be that their online readership is being inadvertently boosted by supporters of independence linking in order to refute the nonsense they publish?
I see Euan McColm is back to his best on WoS Twitter. Does anybody out there think McColm supports independence? 😀 😀
Regarding the advertising revenue that these rags are now able to command, it would be interesting to see some figures of how their revenues have collapsed, in addition to just their readership figures.
I grew up outside Dundee and had both a morning and evening round.
Morning was – 30 Couriers and 1 Scotsman (that house got both)
Evening – 25 Teles.
I’m just beginning to notice how awful a paper the Courier is though. I never paid much attention to their bland almost factual opinion pieces, but they’ve upped it abit recently with the Indy ref. Last week they even ran with ”Calls for Yes Scotland head to quit” or something after the Bulmer rubbish, yet not a single mention of how the hacking of the Yes system.
Jenny Hjul (sic) regularly slags off Gaelic, the ‘Nats'(sic, again) and very rarely offers a positive piece.
The best writers tend to be Tony Troon and Robert McNeil.
Re DC Thomson’s London office. Was it in 12 Fetter Lane, a side road off of Fleet Street. My Dad used to call it the pretend office, for it’s Post Office registration. And was that office not owned by the once liberal newspaper group, “John Leng & Co”, before it was bought over by DC Thomson?
DC Thomson was always slightly to the right of Adolf Hitler politically, even barred catholics from working there.
The so called journalists on twitter inquiring about the Rev are trying to do one thing and one thing only – and that is to discredit anyone with clout who supports Independence.
We’ve seen this happen many time’s playing the man and not the message with attacks on AS and others.
Are they investigating – ‘illegally hacked emails’. lies spread by the BBC, lies told by Jackie Baillie etc etc. I wont hold my breath.
You almost feel the excitement from DH thinking to get one over on WOS.
From my POV, I’m not interested in anyone’s private life.
All print media are the ‘establishment’.
We are challenging the establishment.
muttley79 says:
I see Euan McColm is back to his best on WoS Twitter.
Aye. I see the Rev Stuart Campbell is now being harangued by five journalists. Just goes to show that when it comes to religion – everyone expects the Scottish inquisition.
War war war, war war war.
Rev’s opinion of stuff on twitter matters not one little bit in the big scheme of things.
Another British war is the real story today and could have a big effect on the independence debate. Highly likely to be a large blow to the pro-union campaign.
Newsnet has noted this. And they are bang on: The reason for the union is war.
@scottish skier
You forget that war is actually peace, and everyone likes a peaceful life.
Just read your twitter feed, rev.
How the hell can anyone put up with that and not lose the plot?
I would be throwing punches by now! 🙂
Why is the Paisley Daily Express on the up?
Does Terry Kelly do a comedy page in it?
I just found another downside to not having the Herald in the house. My kitchen has inexplicably been invaded by a posse of large black flies with an aversion to fly paper. I’ve been reduced to swatting them with a rolled-up copy of last month’s Scots Independent.
(Actually, simply opening the French windows and letting them fly out is working better than anything.)
It’s interesting that the ‘journalists’ currently pestering Rev via Twitter never seem to have much to say on these threads. People’s sex lives and honorifics get them in a froth, but none of the topics covered by 1455 posts are worthy of their attention?
Well, I see Stu has relinquished Twitter for the moment. Maybe he really has gone to play poker. I can’t believe how juvenile these journalists are.
I’m inclined to believe that Auld Acquaintance really is/was a Rev. His posts appear serious in that respect. Stu – not so much. I never imagined it was anything more than the same process that got Ben Goldacre’s dead cat Hettie her qualifications in naturopathic medicine.
The idea they think it would damage Stu by revealing that his divinity degree wasn’t from Glasgow University, shall we say, is ludicrous. Or are they deluded enough to imagine there really is a church lurking in the background which could be used to his disadvantage?
Maybe they just don’t like the idea of a grass roots movement aimed at cutting their employers’ advertising revenue by holding their advertisers jointly responsible for their output.
Circling the wagons?
Do any of us give a jot whether Stu is a Reverend or not? If he is, good for him, and if he isn’t, good for him.
Murray- ‘everyone expects the Scottish inquisition.’ You mean hiccup, fuck up, puke up dopy and dipshit ? Bunch of snouts the lot of them.
The Scottish Daily Mail does well at 96,000. However something tells me they do not care for independence or the SNP.
Rev. Stu
the figures given for the newspapers are quoted as being for (for Jan-June 2013…
that’s a six month period so the Press & Journal: 65,500 equates to a monthly readership of 11,000. and your readership figure for the last month is 74,000 ie. nearly 7 times more!
Curious, a while back there were questions asked over Stuart Campbell’s use of the title Reverend, that would now seem to be accepted as he is now being accused of being some sort of religious bigot. It’s confusing enough for me – a regular visitor to this site, I wonder how much more so it must be for new/infrequent visitors. For the benefit of new readers – what you are reading about is a concerted effort to discredit the man who runs this site by pro-union supporters. This is happening as this site is making an ever bigger impact on the referendum debate. I would remind regular contributors that sometimes a bit of context would help!
Looks like the Rev does have a life after all, away from WOS (poker?), was beginning to think he was a robot the rate those tweets was flying around on multiple threads and managing to keep it together. He’s certainly prolific and it seems on little sleep.
@Morag – when I first came onto the Wings website, I thought Stu was a minister, but didn’t he say some time ago he was an atheist?
The Rev Ian Paisley bought his title from a US university, I seem to remember. I wonder if they heckle him.
Starting to think the journos are all in a pub with nothing to do – it’s not like investigative journalism is a feature of any of their careers!
The Scottish Daily Mail does well at 96,000. However something tells me they do not care for independence or the SNP.
I always tend to think of the Mail as a paper more aimed at a particular female demographic. It tends to have hefty home and life sections and a pretty attentive bunch of gossip columnists. I’m not sure its political slant is the first, second or third thing turned to by its readers.
The solution is to send Cameron as the Queen’s champion with Blair as his second. He and Assad fight the war on behalf of all in single combat; hopefully the result would be a terminal draw.
What, so Rev Stu is not really a Reverend, and here is me contributing to WOS and sending him money for stuff all because I really believed he was devinely connected. I have been hoodwinked by him, good god I feel such a fool, well that’s it I am just going to have to disregard all the facts proof and check able information that his articles provide and bloody well vote no. Only thing is I don’t really eat jam, wonder if they would promise me some lime marmalade instead of jam tomorrow .
Anne, thinking Stu might be an actual minister doesn’t last as long as it takes to read half way down the average article, let alone read about his background. It’s an affectation. Some people might think he takes it a bit far, but that’s his business.
“It’s an affectation.”
It’s actually not.
On the journalist thing I’m bemused so many sit and snipe on Twitter. I always thought they hated being the story but half the time they appear to be desperate to be the story. I’m definitely going to avoid Twitter, my tendency to sarcasm would probably not work out for the best.
I’ve noticed that a lot of rather dim bulbs can’t spot sarcasm even if it’s pointed out in flashing neon lights.
By far the most comments made on the Scotsman web editions are those from Pro-Independence readers. Quite often all it takes is 2 or 3 antiIndependence comments to keep a thread going for pages. The distortion of the headline related to the article causes a lot of reaction. There is always enough rabid antiIndependence articles to keep Pro comments going. The thumbs up count showed just how many Pro people were there.
It took me a couple of months to see this, then I stopped visiting the page.
I suppose, just like picking at a sore, people just can’t resist, and continue going to see what is being written. The Scotsman knows and I’m sure is very pleased. It probably gives them some satisfaction to see they can write distorted or insulting articles and those insulted just keep coming back, and boosting the Scotsman’s web rating and income!
Another British war is the real story today and could have a big effect on the independence debate. Highly likely to be a large blow to the pro-union campaign.
Christ, I hope so. I know that it might well be the breaking point for me with the No campaign, in that if people still support the union when we invade another country even though we’re having a hell of a time in two other countries, spreading our resources even further, then I simply cannot take any more.
See, there is exactly one reason I would possibly consider respecting for voting No, and that’s the magical federation possibility. If there was any remote possibility of real change in England to ensure the Westminster way of “democracy” was swept away, the House of Lords dismantled, First Past the Post replaced, and the damage done to the economy, welfare, NHS and education, then I might concede that to be a positive case for the union. That one thing, the idea that there could be nothing less than a full-scale revolution in England, is the only thing keeping me from losing all respect for not just the leaders, but the very ideas of the No campaign.
The government is destroying the NHS: no revolution. The government is threatening to destroy the very landscape and environment with fracking: no revolution. Immigrants are being bundled away in vans and actively targeted by the authorities: no revolution. People are being murdered in terrorist attacks as retaliation for wars the civilians of Britain had nothing to do with: no revolution. Austerity threatens to devastate anyone that isn’t a millionaire: no revolution. What’s it going to take for a revolution to come? Any more of this and it’ll be too little, too late.
If the UK goes to war against Syria, then it’s crunch time: if there isn’t even the seeds of revolution after this country engages in the third major invasion of a country thousands of miles away when they didn’t have sufficient resources to handle one, where hundreds of British troops are dying and thousands – hundreds of thousands – of human lives are lost… Then it isn’t coming. 444 in Afghanistan wasn’t enough. 179 in Iraq wasn’t enough. Lord knows the tens of thousands of human beings killed by British soldiers wasn’t enough. What’s it going to take for the people of England to finally get it?
I’m fast approaching the point where not only can I not agree, I would have difficulty even respecting the opinion of anyone who votes No. That’s a scary thought to me: I had always hoped to be someone who might not agree, but could at least respect someone’s opinion. But what else could you possibly say when someone, with a straight face, says it’s better to sink billions of pounds and hundreds of lives into a war which will cause chaos and tragedy to hundreds of thousands, than to have no part of it?
This is so frightening.
If the good journalists thirst for spiritual knowledge here is a wee sermon for them which I think it is very apposite.
morag says
“I’ve noticed that a lot of rather dim bulbs can’t spot sarcasm even if it’s pointed out in flashing neon lights.”
never?
@ taranaich
A ‘like’ thingy to click on this site would be very useful.
Taranaich: Another British war
I’m in the midst of a very good debate between UKIPers, Tories, disillusioned Labour and Libs, SNP, Greens – all manner of contributors from across the UK (weather forum serious discussion).
The consensus on this topic is amazing – what the fuck! Another Iraq!
Another illegal British war will not go down well.
Rather pleased with the Scotsman figures, stopped reading/buying some time ago but it still has the power to make me want to screammmmmm. Thank you for the article and the film clip, that made me laugh.
A ‘like’ thingy to click on this site would be very useful.
Your thanks is a ‘like’ thingy enough!
I’m in the midst of a very good debate between UKIPers, Tories, disillusioned Labour and Libs, SNP, Greens – all manner of contributors from across the UK (weather forum serious discussion).
The consensus on this topic is amazing – what the fuck! Another Iraq!
Another illegal British war will not go down well.
No kidding. We couldn’t afford Afghanistan, we couldn’t afford Iraq, how on earth could Cameron justify Syria? Nobody can afford this except the Americans at this point.
If anyone is wondering about the rise of circulation by the Paisley Daily Express, they’ve recently cut the cover price by 15p. According to the Press Gazette nearly half of regional daily titles in the UK suffered a 10% or over drop in sales.
link to pressgazette.co.uk
I remember when the poll tax came in, one of the exemptions to payment was being a religious leader. One friend formed his own church and actually got a follower (his girlfriend, now wife) So he avoided payment. Me, the council are welcome to try and collect on the arrears 🙂
The Scotsman circulation figure of 31,326 includes 2500 (8%) freebies.
I remember when the poll tax came in, one of the exemptions to payment was being a religious leader.
I don’t think that can be right. I’m sure ministers had to pay just like the rest of us. In fact there would have been hell to pay if that had been part of the legislation.
@Taranaich-
Well said mister. Pretty much what I’d write meself if I could summon the energy – George Carlin’s words just keep echoing around my heid – ‘the table is tilted folks, the game is rigged…and nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care.’
The sight of Cameron and Hague cavorting on the world stage as ‘hard men’ is one of the most nauseating things any of us is ever likely to witness – so let’s pay attention and make sure we never ever forget what they’re doing.
And all based on Israel intelligence.
SoS circulation drops 20%, that news has made my day! That the Sunday edition dropped the most must surely be due to the swastika saltire insult. If the figures are averaged from Jan to Jun it might even be hiding a bigger drop! Would love to know how many they have sold since April.
I used to comment occasionally on their stories but I no longer want to add to their click numbers. For a while I wondered what a person new to the indyref would make of newspaper sites if there were no pro-indy views or pro-indy clicks on comments. Now l think they will see it for what it is, some obvious extreme views on much shorter threads.
As for the harassment and attempted smearing of RevStu these couple of days, it def shows how stressed they are over his influence with a year still to go. I think we are all getting old hat at this now tho and see it for what it is. Stu you’re doing a great job!
Our so called “Welsh” papers are also in terminal decline. By alienating the people who would otherwise support their rags they are only speeding up their demise.
And similarly many of us will be glad to see the back of them. Why would anyone buy a rag when you can access the entire internet via a smartphone that costs less per day than a paper.
Likewise, I no longer visit the Scotsman pages. Why give then clicks and advertising revenue.
Morag- it was a long time ago but I’m sure Ministers and the ilk got a exemption. I think because for some their place of work was their home as well. There certainly was some discount applied. I can’t find any details on the web probably as it was pre internet days. But it would have been typical of that hateful govt to do that. Neverthe less my friend did form his own church ( a mix of christianity and hiipiedom). He eventually ascended into a london bus driver then moved back to drive buses in Glasgow.
Well said mister. Pretty much what I’d write meself if I could summon the energy – George Carlin’s words just keep echoing around my heid – ‘the table is tilted folks, the game is rigged…and nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care.’
Aye. My auld faither told me the revolutions of the world come when there’s nothing left to lose: before then, if you’re comfortable, or have anything you don’t want to lose, then you’re less likely to stick your neck out. I can tell you that between DWP and austerity, I’m living in constant fear that everyone I hold dear *will* have everything taken away from them. More and more people are experiencing this, especially in Scotland. I truly hope, independence or not, there’s a revolution in England sooner rather than later.
If you are interested I’m an ordained Minister in the Church of Dudisim. The Church of the Latter day Dude. I joined after being introduced by a good pal who is also a Church of Scotland Minister, you know theological college and divinity degree – all that stuff. She thought it was a hoot and got as many of her pals as possible to join.
You too can get ordained here – link to dudeism.com
Scarily this allows you to officiate at Weddings, funerals etc in a quite a large number of US states. I’ve not tried that bit, but you are all welcome to give it a go. The site gives you a certificate and everything. However if we all join then we can all call ourselves Rev.
Then when they come looking on twitter – then, I’m the Rev Spartacus, no I’m the Rev Spartacus, no I’m the Rev Spartacus. You get the picture.
My theory is the Rev is an old game moniker that Stuart gave himself to distinguish from other Stuart Campbells of that gaming era. Possibly inspired by The Preacher comics of the time. Now, Rev Stu and I are around the same age so when I see 20-somethings berate The Rev on twitter over his moniker, then they prove to me that real culture in the UK dropped dead around 1999 and therefore the country has bred these fuckwits with no imagination or sense of a real cultural edge whatsoever.
Of course I maybe wrong 🙂
Morag- it was a long time ago but I’m sure Ministers and the ilk got a exemption. I think because for some their place of work was their home as well. There certainly was some discount applied.
My father was a minister, but he was already retired when the Poll Tax came in, so I can’t speak from personal experience. However, the Poll Tax had nothing to do with your home or what you did in it. It was a personal tax. As far as I know, you’re wrong – ministers had to pay same as everyone else. In fact, I vaguely remember some problem to do with the Church having previously paid the rates on the manses as they were church property, but then saying the ministers were responsible for their own poll tax.
I would welcome accurate information, but I really really don’t think so. The public outcry would have been memorable if nothing else.
Morag Found it! Section 7 of S.12 Reilgious orders link to legislation.gov.uk How my friend did it I don’t know. Maybe he was BS me. But don’t forget thiose on benefits had to pay an amount as well. So total inhuman scum then as now. My original point, rather flippantly, was implying maybe the Rev is the Rev for tax reasons 🙂
I forgot to mention this legislation relates to the Act relevant to England and Wales as far as I can make out.
Of course no title can survive a double digit year on year decrease in its readership. They are goners, sooner or later, but ultimately they’re on their way out. In the case of the Scotsman they are of course part of a group and so to an extent are subsidised by the other titles. The group itself is in deep doo doo however so really its the drowning man on the second of three fingers.
Its something we’ve all discussed a few times in these threads in terms of causes. Technology, political affiliations, social trends, all play their part in the downfall of dead tree press in the UK. Strangely the same drastic fall in readerships doesn’t appear to be happening in Europe. All of the above causes are part of the picture, but probably the most underestimated cause of this terminal decline is trust. Unlike our continental neighbours our titles are almost universally mistrusted by their potential readerships. Too much corruption exposed, too many lines crossed ethically, too many lives ruined by the long lens. People began to fear the press. They made and broke reputations. They made and broke careers and finally they made and broke governments. They became as much to blame for disastrous government actions as the parties of government themselves.
And when you fear something you tend to turn to fight or flight, sometimes both. The Leveson inquiry struck a huge chord with the public and for good reason. The awful thing was that the public was not shocked by what the inquiry uncovered. They knew what to expect. The other shoe is yet to drop on the results of that one. A probable future for the titles? Most will die and fade into dim memory never to be missed including a good number of well known daily rags. A select few big guns will move into the digital world and simply lose the production end of their operations. Instead they’ll specialise on particular market segments a la FT.
It could have and should have been a very different end to the story. All they had to do was be the ball. A newspaper should have just delivered… news.
Re poll/council tax, I think religious communities still get some kind of an exemption (I presume that’s more your Samye Ling kind of thing).
Who wants to join my cult ‘The Order of the Holy Macaroni Pie” Basically money is evil, I’d spare you that. Just send bank details. You can trust me to spend it! and save your soul. Your reward will be a pie in heaven. 🙂
@Taranaich-
There was an NME interview with Paul Weller, in his ‘Jam’ days, saying something like ‘there’ll never be a revolution in England so long as guys have enough in their pockets for another pint‘. He was probably paraphrasing Orwell, who always held the English working-class in high-esteem, often citing their instinctive aversion to any form of war, especially Civil War.
God only knows what Orwell would make of what’s happening now, but ‘God’ can’t help us – we have to try and make sense of it for ourselves, with the help of folk like Stuart Campbell. The fact that this site is being assaulted, and that Rev is receiving such abuse, proves that we’re doing something right – this site is, ostensibly, concerned with Scottish politics, but it’s reaching the parts that ‘British’ MSM simply don’t reach, and the readership stats don’t lie.
@ sneddon
‘Who wants to join my cult ‘The Order of the Holy Macaroni Pie”’
There will be a sausage-roll schism afore ye know it..
Rev Stu is an anagram of ‘vertus’ which means artistic quality.
He was a games critic back in the day of microcomputers, perhaps the developers of “International Rugby Challenge” are still holding a grudge…?
Still got that copy, maybe a signature Stu?
watching the TV News is quite nauseating, the so called Foreign Correspondents are enjoying the jingostic breast thumping.
Britain can go to war again like a World Policeman, the reality is only with USA backing yookay can attack a country that cannot it back,
Bullying pure and simple
I think that part of the page is detailing the old legislation which exempted churches from paying rates. I imagine the manse got a reduction for the proportion of the rates that would cover the study.
I can’t find anything about ministers or priests or whatever not having to pay the poll tax. I wonder if there was some sort of discount or exemption for monks in monasteries though? That’s just a wild guess.
I suppose you all will be questioning my sainthood as well. Splitters!
I eat Chinese food ,it does not make me Chinese, or is that too deep for the braying donkeys on Twitter trying to ruffle the Rev?
Are WE in agreement?
Will we do a Better Together and close down (anti-independence/pro-union) debate, and the vehicle for it, by not turning up (on Johnston Press websites) then?
Taranaich says: “
No kidding. We couldn’t afford Afghanistan, we couldn’t afford Iraq, how on earth could Cameron justify Syria? Nobody can afford this except the Americans at this point.”
America cannot even nearly afford another war… link to youtube.com
Jon D
I personally will be seeking not to visit their sites and will be taking note of their advertisers when I look through archive links.
I think everyone should make up their own minds though. Some people enjoy the debating.
O/t, the news has just said that John Bellany has died. Haven’t a clue what his opinion of independence was, but he was a great Scottish painter.
OK, be mysterious. I should coco.
@cynicalhighlander
Indeed, there was a Janes Defence chap on Saturday GMS saying that Israel and the US had constant surveillance over Syria and so could easily give information on who launched what and when on Damascus, no need to rely on the UN inspectors.
It’s late, so forgive me, but the breast beating is bollocks.
Looks like my wee campaign to reduce the circulation of newspapers whose headlines I find offensive is working then?
(Flip the top copy on the newsstand.)
It all helps!
Did you win at poker?
“Did you win at poker?”
Sadly not on this occasion. But I was/am absolutely knackered anyway, an early night will do fine.
The bombing of ‘anywhere’, for any reason, results in scenes similar to this. Please don’t watch it if you’re used to seeing MSM reports of ‘bombings’ which show streets with puddles of diluted blood – this is what ‘the street’ looks like before they’ve had a chance to start clearing-up:
@ianbrotherhood
Having worked for Aljazeera, before their English language channel, showing the reality of death on the website, particularly on Falluja, I was criticised by former BBC colleagues. Sadly people don’t like to see the hellish truth.
Getting a bit late for that, isn’t it?
I’m a little confused.
Are you more dead if you have been gassed than you are if you have been blown up by an American missile like the ones we bombarded Iraq with for 43 days in Operation Desert Storm (which every body forgets about)?
Are there good and justifiable civilian deaths (the ones UK and US are responsible for) and bad civilian deaths (done by other people)?
Does our government think we are all daft?
Must remember there are a lot of folks who still choose to read the English newspapers Times, Telegraph, Mail, Independent etc.
Love the fact our once proud scottish press are suffering; they deserve everything they get.
Still can’t believe that not one major banner has realised that if nothing else, there is at least an obvious gap in the market for disenfranchised readers who support independence? A possible avenue for salvation maybe ?
Based on their own figures at this stage, at least a min of 35% of the population would surely consider a left of centre social democratic read with either nationalist leanings or at least honest even handed representation of some sort. Since this is clearly beyond the ‘ownership’ or ‘editorial pale’ then I wholly ascribe to the adage of ‘Turkeys on a countdown to Christmas’. But further many of us will see this as deserved retribution for decades of ongoing ‘cartel’ organised, often blatent party line campaigning for the union, which has left no repesentation for the juxtaposition, contrary to most western democratic ideas of free speech.The fact that hey cannot see this does seem amusing to at least a portion of the people who may otherwise have been potential customers.
Only in Scotland
Folks, see how a mention of a previous attempt to slur the Rev. results in the same slur being given renewed credence?
Good post Taranaich.
@Albalha (11.10)-
‘I was criticised by former BBC colleagues.’
And what was their beef, precisely? That viewers would be upset? That the dignity of victims had to be observed?
I always wondered, even as a child, why John Craven’s ‘Newsround’ was different from the Six O’Clock News, which in turn was different from, say, World in Action or any of the Pilger documentaries. Surely ‘news’ was ‘news’ and that was that?
Perhaps the BBC should have a ‘Don’t Watch Alone’ version of the news which is broadcast at half-two in the morning and contains the footage only fanatics could possibly want to see. Virtually no-one will be up to watch it, but, just like Public Information Films, they’ll be able to say, hand-on-heart, that the material was broadcast .
Was there not something about The Scotsman fiddling their figures online so were drastically penalised by Google which would make it harder to find them via a search? As many others have said, Liars.
I am very very sad about the Herald, it has been part of my life for over 30 years. I really hope they are turning it around. I felt that at Christmas time they tried to present not hides of the debate. Yes, Magnus wouldn’t know honest reporting if it bit him in the arse but Bell and McW present more balanced viewpoints.
I hope the Herald will continue down this road if they see it has slowed the decline. Their online is the best of the lot even if they do let the two southerners away with a lot of BS.
@ianbrotherhood
Cutting a long story short. This was in April 2004, first so called Battle of Falluja. The media had been asked to leave ‘for their own safety’ but there happened to be a non news Aljazeera presenter and cameraman still inside and a freelance news photographer, working for Agence France Presse, I think.
Anyway the Aljazeera team, as well as reporitng on TV under bombing, sent out images of dead and dying children which I put up on the English language website,as did the Arabic website. The criticism was that, in addition to them being graphic, they didn’t name, give age of each child.
Somewhat missing the point that the bereaved wanted the information out and whether, or not, the world knew names etc was neither here nor there.
The Scotsman is just a shell that is used to publish propaganda for BT. This is then picked up and broadcast by the WBC.
It is also interesting that when you google ‘Scottish Independence’, the majority of the results are Scotsman BT stories or WBC derivatives of them. It costs a lot to get your site results like this on google – I wonder how they can afford it?
I always regret following links which lead to the Scotsman – so from now on I will desist and regrette rien!
Jon D @ 10.26pm
Each to their own I suppose. I know some cant stand to see their lies and misrepresentation go unchallenged. Commenting there is a bit like picking at a scab, probably not a good idea but sometimes you cant help yourself. Its not a good forum for debate and if my clicks add to their ability to get advertising revenue then I’m done with them.
If you want to ensure no accidental click-through to Scotsman, you can block the domain name http://www.scotsman.com by opening up your firewall settings and adding it to your firewall block-list.
Iain Follow the pie not the sausage roll. 🙂
Iain
“Perhaps the BBC should have a ‘Don’t Watch Alone’ version of the news which is broadcast at half-two in the morning and contains the footage only fanatics could possibly want to see. Virtually no-one will be up to watch it, but, just like Public Information Films, they’ll be able to say, hand-on-heart, that the material was broadcast .”
Like the news broadcast hours after the bells on Jan. 1st. a couple of weeks after the Lockerbie plane crash where they reported that the government confirmed that the plane had uranium on it. Didn’t see this on any other broadcast.
The program was embedded in the middle of hours of Celtic music which was then still very much a minority interest at a time where virtually nobody would be watching and if they were would likely be in no shape to follow it. I only saw it because I am a folk fan and had recently bought one of the first VCRs with extended record capability. Still got the tape.
Significant amounts of depleted uranium was (is?) used as tail-section ballast on some airliners so it wasn’t even that devastating news-wise but still, apparently, something they did not want to become common knowledge.
Another I remember was a government minister bemoaning the declining quality of British manufacturing products but later in the evening on the BBC World Service he was reported as saying [paraphrasing]”Good to see British goods are still the best in the world.”.
There must be some kind of political filter at the beeb somewhere.
There was an NME interview with Paul Weller, in his ‘Jam’ days, saying something like ‘there’ll never be a revolution in England so long as guys have enough in their pockets for another pint‘. He was probably paraphrasing Orwell, who always held the English working-class in high-esteem, often citing their instinctive aversion to any form of war, especially Civil War.
Indeed. I often wonder why there aren’t riots in England like we saw in 2011 over a gang fight, then I realised that the people who riot over things like that aren’t the same as people who would oppose the government en masse.
The fact that this site is being assaulted, and that Rev is receiving such abuse, proves that we’re doing something right – this site is, ostensibly, concerned with Scottish politics, but it’s reaching the parts that ‘British’ MSM simply don’t reach, and the readership stats don’t lie.
I’m a chronic “Devil’s Advocate” kind of guy, but the people who are “curious” about Rev are people like Euan McColm, and there’s no way I’m going to give them even a hint of the benefit of the doubt after the way they’ve acted. That’s what bothers me about it all: people are giving Rev grief, and in the process supporting people who have done demonstrable harm, have been proven to lie and distort specifically to cause harm, and said unequivocably despicable things.
America cannot even nearly afford another war… link to youtube.com
Good grief, it’s worse than I thought.
The bombing of ‘anywhere’, for any reason, results in scenes similar to this. Please don’t watch it if you’re used to seeing MSM reports of ‘bombings’ which show streets with puddles of diluted blood – this is what ‘the street’ looks like before they’ve had a chance to start clearing-up:
I’ve been reading Roald Dahl’s Over To You, a collection of stories inspired by his time in the air force during World War 2. One of his stories, “Someone Like You,” is about two pilots reminiscing about their bombing runs. It’s one of the most powerful things I’ve ever read, an incredible insight into how the madness and horror of war can be brought home. Everyone should read it.
Good post Taranaich.
Thanks Mr McGregor!
@Adam Davidson, 7:19
Back in February, Google reduced the pagerank of most JP titles to 0 (Scotsman from 7 to 3) temporarily, because they were caught prostituting their pagerank. That is a big no-no because it would reduce the trustworthiness of Google’s search engine generally if everyone started doing it. What happened as a result for a while was that the paper disappeared from early pages of Google searches. For example, if you Googled the term “Scottish news”, the Scotsman didn’t appear until page 7, assuming you get around 10 links per search page. The link below explains what happened better.
link to mediachimps.co.uk
Wasn’t just JP, I think the Independent was caught doing it too.
Depleted uranium? There was a hell of a lot of inaccurate information broadcast by the BBC and others in the days following the Lockerbie crash. People just got things wrong, misheard things, or misunderstood things. If they were really trying to hide something, why broadcast it at all? I think that one is in the same category as “the village of Tundergarth is in flames”, which they also reported.
There is one prominent commentator who has practically made a career out of propounding conspiracy theories based on the assumption that all the early reports are gospel truth, but it’s nonsense.