All in something together
And we’ll give you a clue – the thing we’re in, we’re in it without a paddle.
The above is a graph released by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, invariably described as a “respected” economic research organisation of no particular political leaning. It’s an analysis of the likely impact of the coalition’s tax and welfare “reforms” on various demographic groups over the period of the current government.
It takes a moment’s study to make sense of (and it’s by far the most accessible thing they publish, though if you’re an economics whiz you can find all sorts of detailed cleverclogs stuff on their website), so we’ll quickly take you through a few bullet points.
(NB the graph ISN’T plotted by time. The horizontal axis is wealth, and each dot represents the net effect of tax and benefit changes on the group in question across the coalition’s full five-year term. A “decile” is one-tenth of the population. So the 1st decile is the poorest 10% of people, the 2nd decile is the next-poorest 10%, etc.)
– basically, everyone in the country will be poorer in terms of income when the 2015 election comes around than they were after the 2010 one.
– of course, if you’re making £10m a year running a hedge fund and your income declines by 10%, you’ll still be making £9m a year, so it won’t be too bad. On the other hand, if you can barely make ends meet already and your income falls by 6% (as the price of everything continues to move in the opposite direction), you’re going to be in a spot of bother.
– the group who will suffer the least are the poorest pensioners, whose income will remain static, meaning they only have inflation to worry about (as well as near-zero interest rates eroding the value of any savings they might have). Pensioners also do the best overall, with almost none of them losing more than 2% of their income.
– the poorest childless adults are going to get a real kicking. Very poor adults with children will suffer almost as badly, but for the childless things get less bad the richer you are, whereas if you have kids you’re going to get hammered no matter what. Lesson: don’t have any more children for a few years.
– to nobody’s surprise, the rich get the easiest ride, except for the super-rich. For people of working age, the 7th, 8th and 9th deciles (that is to say, the people sitting in 2nd, 3rd and 4th place in the league table of wealth) all do better than their poorer cousins, with only the very richest taking a bigger cut in income.
– the most dramatic effect is among working-age adults without children, where the more money you have the less you lose, all the way up to the very richest 10% (who still lose slightly less than the poorest 10%).
In a nutshell, then, under the Tory/Lib Dem coalition it’s better to be old than young (coincidentally, old people are the biggest voters), it’s better to be rich than poor (coincidentally, rich people tend to vote Tory), and it’s better to not to have children than to have them (because the poor breed like rabbits).
You can probably work out what that’s likely to mean in 2015 for yourselves.
How do the benefit changes affect tax paid by corporations ?…..We need to look at this big elephant in the room rather than demonizing the poor/unemployed or the working dependent on which camp you prefer.
This idea that people who work can be taxed without impact is wrong. I can say from personal experience of being taxed at 60-70% of all earnings over 25K that there is a point where taxation reduces incentive to work. Lets not even get into the 22% VAT/TVA on anything left.
“from personal experience of being taxed at 60-70% of all earnings over 25K that there is a point where taxation reduces incentive to work”
I’m sure it does. But as a general principle rather than a comment on your personal position, there comes a point where we SHOULD be reducing people’s incentive to work. The real debate is simply over where that point should be.
Tory second term any body?
With a YES vote in 2014 them I think we could be looking at a long term situation of Tory rule.
As an aside here’s what Scotland on Sunday are thinking.
link to twitter.com
Here is the unadulterated version of the picture.
link to twitpic.com
If a high tax rate disincentivises work beyond a certain point/value, then if that work needs doing, someone else who hasn’t reached the point of being disincentivised by only keeping some of their excess wealth can step up and do the work. So, more people working, more people contributing, less people taking…what’s not to like? Other than the people who resent paying taxes to create the civilised society that allows them to accumulate and retain wealth, and who can’t be bothered to earn that extra million because they’d only keep a few hundred thousand of it.
Perverse incentives are far bigger in the lower end though. Council tax, PAYE, NI etc take up a huge chunk out of a low wage, and even more if you’re losing housing benefit, tax credits etc as you earn. And off the scale if you have to pay for childcare and transport on top.
Particularly things like zero hour contracts, where you’re not guaranteed hours and may end up having to pay for taxis to work at unsociable hours when you do get hours, people are often better off not bothering.
Millionaires, OTOH, are not going to miss a percentage of what they earn beyond a million. And their percentage take in NI, council tax, road tax etc is negligible.
As an aside here’s what Scotland on Sunday are thinking.
I love the smell of desperation in the morning. It smells like victory.
“As an aside here’s what Scotland on Sunday are thinking.”
W.T F.? Seriously?
That is simply jaw-dropping. And a lie.
Who are behind Scotland on Sunday??
I take it they’ll also be doing an article on the UK media who supported Hitler and the Fascists – the Daily Mail for example? And perhaps IBM? And it would be interesting to see exactly what line the Scotsman was taking in the 1930s about various issues. That can be done very easily.
If there are thousands of readers of this site, even on a Sat night, surely we can find out who the lads in the original image are – do they know about this?
Here’s hoping one of them has a good lawyer who knows how to kick up hell with the SOS editors pronto.
Re the SoS pic/story.
Amazing. That image should be saved for posterity; it demonstrates clearly how late stage we are in the end of the union.
To have read about or seen live on TV how outlandish state propaganda becomes just ahead of final ‘regime’ collapse it is truly fascinating to see this happening in the UK.
It is the sort of thing many only imagine happening in tin pot dictatorships, yet here we are in Scotland with people opening their papers and thinking ‘WTF – is this crap for real’?
It’s all over; we are witnessing the very last days of imperial Britain.
Good pic for Better Together to tweet?
Well a very quick search of the Scotsman archives from 1936-39 for Hitler (7614 results) shows his speeches from 1936 onwards seemed to have been reported in full frequently – he certainly gets a lot more entire and direct speeches published than Salmond or Canavan could ever dream of, including a lot of real hate speech quoted directly and with very little, if any, editorial comment from the Hootsman.
Difficult to judge any editorial stance from this time distance and on a quick search, but as one example, there is a headline from Sept 10th 1936 “Jews responsible for world conflict” which goes on to report a Hitler speech in full. Not “That mad Hitler says Jews…” but just that, as a headline.
One suspects a bit more digging might produce a lot of evidence the Hootmson were not whiter-than-white in the 30s.
I think that particular rag has just had its Godwin moment. Another one that’s lost the argument. I really do hope this is a tangible sign of the Westminster regime’s ongoing collapse.
If someone calls us nazi’s then refer them to this article
link to the-universality-of-cheese.blogspot.co.uk
@Arbroath1320-
If you don’t mind my asking, how did you know about the original image?
It’s only half-tennish right now – if one of those guys in the picture objects to the SoS manipulation of the original, can’t he demand that the supplement not be included in the paper tomorrow?
Unless those people and/or the photographer have given permission for such manipulation, it seems extremely reckless of the SoS (and that’s aside from being intrinsically offensive and tasteless).
Any lawyers reading who could comment on this?
I’m not seeing it on the actual Hootsmon site as yet. If it gets there, and if it’s really there in the paper tomorrow, I think something is flipping. Who or what I’m not sure.
Bear in mind that’s the cover of an inside supplement, not the actual newspaper.
Sunday Herald front page tomorrow says that Bitter Together mob have a £2 million war chest with a list of those who made donations on the inside. Could be interesting.
As far as I can see the human figures in the Hootsmon image are indeed the people in the original – it’s not a re-staging. Oddly, there is more detail that would allow them to be recognised in the new version than the original offered for comparison – the lighting or contrast is better. However, the sky behind the flag is subtly different. One contrail in the new image is not there in the original, and the sun is in a slightly different position.
I think the Hootsmon is using a different and perhaps more original print of the photo than the one offered for comparison. How strange. And how strange that they would allow the people to remain recognisable, when it would have been easy to put them in silhouette.
@Jiggsbro -“I love the smell of desperation in the morning. It smells like victory.” I would change desperation to fear Jiggs. Skier is right, this really is a sign of a regime in its death throes. We are witnessing history in the making.
@ Bill…. excellent.
ianbrotherhood says:
@Arbroath1320-
If you don’t mind my asking, how did you know about the original image?
I found out about the picture on Twitter from NConway who also supplied the information that the picture was on the Scotland on Sunday’s Facebook page.
@Morag-
Very strange indeed.
Maybe they’re doing it to purposely generate some controversy. Perhaps they just happened across the image and thought, ‘that’s quite striking, let’s just fiddle with it a bit and hope the copyright holder doesn’t notice.’
Or perhaps the SoS has just taken a blunderbuss to its own cobblers?
Hard to imagine that people who went to such trouble to create a professional and effective image celebrating Scottish identity will be sanguine about what the SoS has done with it.
We’ll find out soon enough.
The top decile is what, 70 grand a year and up? Definitely well off but not exactly Super Rich.
Re. SOS
I honestly thought that I had seen it all.
Imagine doing this to any other country’s flag. Try that in America and the lynch party would be at the editors door pronto.
I hope Scottish skier is right. The last throws of empire.
aye…le plus ca changes, rien ne changes plus… let them eat cake… roll on the Revolution!!
I find it difficult to believe that most Scots seeing that image would be anything other than outraged. And not at the SNP. But what do I know?
I agree Morag. I’m not a flag type person at all but I find the doctored image highly offensive. It looks like typical foreign propaganda. And I’m really not sure that’s what Better Together and their tame media want to be aiming towards. But if that’s what they want to do, let them go ahead.
I have just posted the following on the Scotland on Sunday Facebook page. I am incandescent with rage.
“I think we have reached a defining moment in the referendum campaign and in all probablity Scottish history. There can only be one reason for this outrageous attack on those who seek self determination for their country, FEAR! For a so called Scottish quality newspaper, to sink to these depths to smear the noble cause of Scottish self determination is beyond belief. I am truly saddened that Scotsman Publications have sunk to this level to defend what is, as of now, (thanks to this picture) a totally discredited union. What on earth are Scotsman Publications thinking about to publish such sickening imagery? This picture will go down in Scottish history as the image that ended Scotsman Publications and ended the union.”
I have also posted “You have defiled our national flag”.
@Bill C
Here is tomorrow’s front page of the Sunday Herald:
link to twitpic.com
@Marcia
I might even be tempted to part with £1.30. The list of donors to bitter together will be pined up so that I can boycott and disadvantage as many of them as possible.
Hopefully the Rev will print the list here!
The flag image is used as the cover of Tom Devine’s The Scottish Nation (2000) http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Scottish-Nation-Tom-Devine/dp/0140230041/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1365288603&sr=8-4&keywords=tom+devine
On Topic.
Being a bit poorer will just annoy the rich as they step over the homeless on their way to work in the city.
As for the poorest childless adults. Those are the ones with little to loose. I predict a riot.
@Wur A Dommed
If so then a hard copy will be pined up as an easy reference. Not one of them will get a brass farthing via profits out of me. Not fecking one!
I think SOS has well and truly jumped the shark this time.
i hope karma catches up with whoever was behind this and does her worst…
@Ericmac – Cheers, I am so bloody mad!
@Marcia – Thanks I am afraid my computing skills don’t stretch to providing links!
@ The Man in the Jar – Boycott all who contribute to denying our country self determination and especially Scotsman Publications who deflie our national flag and insult the memory of the the hundreds of thousands of Scots who fought against fascism.
link to amazon.co.uk
Here’s the actual article, and a quick scan suggests it’s nowhere near as unreasonable as that picture would indicate. And the picture appears nowhere in the online page.
link to scotsman.com
Regarding the bitter together list of the damned. £2m. Is there not something about the referendum and the electoral commission regarding campaign spending?
In fact, if you want to be outraged at SoS this morning, this article looks like a much better target.
link to scotsman.com
In answer to the unionist troll Grahamski on SoS Facebook page, “Grahamski – I am one of your so called “patriots” and I have no love for the Union Flag. However, members of my family fought facsists under that flag and I would never insult their memory by defiling it. Tonight unionism has plumbed the political depths. I hope you so called ‘unionists’ are very proud of of the political gutter you now swim in.”
I am already regretting answering idiots like this clown from Falkirk, but sometimes!!!!!!!!!
Does anyone else think that we have polls that don’t swing back and forward? In other words, once ‘YES’ is planted in peoples mind, they dont go back to ‘NO’.
If this is the case, it means that the Unionists must be worried. They cannot turn back the tide, they can only slow it down with their scare stories. They must feel they are hanging on to the tail of a Clydesdale horse in a muddy field.
The YES camp just keep ploughing along.
Has anyone done the maths on what our monthly growth rate has to be to win? And how does that translate in to numbers of people need to be converted monthly per thousand YES supporters?
Of course the dirty tricks have not even started yet. Expect them to try to shoot the horse near the end of the field.
Here’s an interesting excerpt from a lecture I’m reading about the history of BRITISH fascism.It could almost have been written about what’s happening in the UK today:
“BF policy was vague and generalised. Its main components included the upholding of the monarchy, promotion of class friendship, the elimination of slums, the encouragement of Empire trade, a drastic restriction of immigration and deep seated hostility to socialism”
That’s pretty much the future for the UK. Anyone who thinks it’s an exaggeration to draw parallels between 1930s Europe and today need only look at the rise of the far-right in Europe, especially Golden Dawn in Greece. We have the perfect breeding grounds for such movements to gain power, with people pissed off and looking for someone to blame. And just as they did in the 1930s, the media are promoting these messages of division and hate. For “Jews” read “benefit scroungers”, and Stu’s previous article has already shown us that there are people loudly proclaiming the need to treat poor people as being less than human, just like people did with Jews.
Of course, we’re very smug in these isles over how we defeated fascism, as if it was an exclusively foreign force, conveniently forgetting the likes of SIR Oswald Mosely, the Mitford sisters, and the fascist movement as a whole (the history of which has an intriguingly high proportion of Sirs, Lords and other upper class nitwits). It could happen again here, and arguably already is (UKIP are a hair’s breadth from being genuinely fascist, if they aren’t already).
So the SoS can piss off with attempts to try and link the early roots of Scottish Nationalism with fascism. Fascism was basically “a thing” in the 1930s, just as the eugenics at the heart of Hitler’s ideology was also favoured by much British luminaries as John Maynard Keynes and the man voted our “Greatest Briton” by the BBC 10 years ago, Winston Churchill himself.
Ahh, maybe one day the human race will learn to stop repeating the mistakes from history…
In fact, if you want to be outraged at SoS this morning, this article looks like a much better target.
“a Scottish population ageing faster than elsewhere in the UK”? That can’t be right, surely? We all die before we get to pension age because we won’t eat anything except deep-fried lard, washed down with pints of whisky. We’re so unhealthy we’ve had to lower the minimum working age so there are enough people eligible to work as grave-diggers. And our useless NHS kills more people than it cures. Not that many of them get treated, because they spend so long on the waiting list they die of old age (aka ‘middle age’ in England).
Sorry, just checked my inbox and read the latest memo from Better Together. Apparently next week’s revision of reality starts on Sunday, not Monday as I thought. As you were.
The Man in the Jar
Spending limits only apply for the 16 weeks prior to polling day on 18th September 2014
“Here’s the actual article, and a quick scan suggests it’s nowhere near as unreasonable as that picture would indicate. And the picture appears nowhere in the online page.”
@Morag – I fear you miss the subliminal message.
@Morag
Thanks for the link. If it wasn’t time for my bed before I read it, it certainly was afterwards! This article is meant to in some way contribute to the current debate in this country but for the life of me I don’t know what point it is trying to make.
I’ve come to the conclusion that many of those still inclined to lean towards the unionist case of Bitter Together have failed to grasp 2 key things.
Firstly, they are as oblivious to the diabolical decisions being visited on Scotland by the ConDems in an effort to maintain their political existence in the South as they are to Labour’s abject failure to effectively oppose these policies.
Secondly, they still haven’t grasped that YES Scotland doesn’t = SNP! YES Scotland is made up of many people from many different political persuasions and none but with a genuine common goal of getting a fairer, more just and democratic Scotland that represents the will of the people.
So let’s compare notes – why would continuing in the status quo be better?
Silence at last I’m off to bed!
@Morag …
That ‘article’ is an extract from a book and surprise, surprise, the political party in Scotland the article mentions is the SNP and the writer of the piece manages to squeeze in Alex Salmond’s name (the only modern politician mentioned) along with the National Front and the BNP! … quite deliberate I think.
@Morag – Re SoS
Sorry, I have to disagree. Did you not read the final paragraph with its unsubtle hints of SNP = Nationalism = Facism = Nazism? Take another wee read and see what you think.
Sorry to swear, but I’m seething! That defiling of Scotland’s flag is a fucking disgrace, and the Scotsman and everything and everyone associated with it can go and fuck themselves. It’s beyond the pale. What were they thinking? Seriously, what? There really is no depth of shite that they will not plumb.
The story can be disregarded, or just added to the list of smears and scaremongering trash from the present-UK. The associated doctored picture, with a swastika on a blue background, cannot, and should not be disregarded – ever. May it find a place in a future independent Scotland’s digital record of what was done in the name of a failed and dishonest Union in attempting to misinform, smear, cheat and lie their way to influence the voters in 2014 – without success.
This is getting to be desperate stuff from the No-ists and there’s still over a year and a bit to go! My God – if this is going on now, whit’s in store?
Keep the heid YES, the people need assurance and the full facts of what’s their future as independents. Get it into their letterbox in nice plain and easy, friendly terms.
The NO-ists are finished and there’s still 529 days to go!!!!
Sorry, but I said I only scanned the article quickly. I noted a book review, with some wider treatment of fascism in Britain in general. I’m perfectly willing to believe a detailed perusal would have had me steaming. Which may be why I didn’t spend more time on it. (That and that I’m trying to write a book here.)
However, I’m still waiting to find out where SoS is actually using that appalling flag image.
There is a petition on twitter directed at the Scotsman about the Saltire.
The original cover of the book (at Birlinn publishing ) is a swastika ,with the words Fascist Scotland imposed across the top of it,the thistle on the corner. The photograph is all SOS ‘s take on it,it would appear.
Barontorc – ‘Keep the heid YES’.
That is exactly right. AS made a speech the other day in which he stated that nationalists had never used violence in almost a hundred years of working toward independence. This photo and article could be an attempt to prove him wrong. One broken window at the Scotsman would be enough to cause a torrent of outrage from the unionists. We would never hear the end of it. On the other hand this could just be another symptom of their fear and desperation as others have said. I hope so.
Ian, Alan, Arkan, Saddam, Iran, Cameran, tax man, Darliang…
THE pro-union Better Together campaign has banked almost £1 million of donations from businessmen worried about the economics of independence and received pledges worth £1m more, it revealed last night. The largest cheque, for £500,000, came from Ian Taylor, a Scots oil trader with a major stake in the Harris Tweed industry, after a meeting on Lewis with Alistair Darling, the Better Together leader and former Labour Chancellor.
link to heraldscotland.com
1 July 2001 :
A British oil company which once employed senior Tory Alan Duncan as a consultant paid $1 million to the Serbian war criminal Arkan to settle a score over a secret oil deal to supply Slobodan Milosevic’s Serbia with fuel. An investigation by The Observer has established that millionaire oil trader Bob Finch, director of Vitol, based in Knightsbridge, London, used Arkan as a ‘fixer’ after a controversial oil deal in the former Yugoslavia collapsed.
The other senior politician being dragged into the action is the Tory, Alan Duncan, whom Moussavi intends to call as a witness. Duncan, former Tory vice-chairman and a supporter of Michael Portillo, was a paid consultant to Vitol in the early 1990s. He worked with Vitol’s president, Ian Taylor, at Shell and remains a close friend.
link to guardian.co.uk
16 May 2008 :
Senior members of the Shadow Cabinet have been accused of potential conflicts of interest after their offices were shown to be funded by companies that have direct interests in their policy portfolios.
Alan Duncan, the shadow Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Secretary, received funds from the president and chief executive of the oil company Vitol, Ian Taylor, who is a former colleague of Mr Duncan’s and runs a company which used to employ Mr Duncan as a consultant.
Labour went on the offensive, accusing the Conservatives of concealing potential conflicts of interest.
link to independent.co.uk
In 2008, Channel 4’s Dispatches programme investigated Cameron’s Leaders Group. The investigation dug deep to establish the names of Cameron’s donors that had donated more than £50k and who were thus automatically members of this group with direct access to Cameron. This is who they found:
Ian Taylor of the Vitol oil company: In 2007, a subsidiary of this company (Vital SA) pleaded guilty to first degree grand larceny after paying $13million in ‘secret kickbacks’ to the Iraqi government in exchange for oil under the United Nations’ oil-for-food program. They were fined a total of $17.5million ($13 million in restitution to the Development Fund for Iraq)
link to powerbase.info
2 September 2011:
A government minister was last night facing ‘serious questions’ over claims that an oil company to which he is closely linked was given ‘preferential’ access to Libya during the conflict. International Development Minister Alan Duncan helped establish a secret ‘Libyan Oil Cell’ in Whitehall which played a vital role in helping to supply fuel to rebel fighters.
Mr Duncan, a former oil trader, is reported to have helped set up and run the small unit in the Foreign Office, which also worked to starve Colonel Gaddafi’s forces of oil. But controversy was mounting last night over claims that the unit also helped arrange meetings between the Libyan rebels and the Swiss-based multinational Vitol, the world’s largest oil trader.
Vitol is said to have gone on to supply oil to the rebels ‘largely without upfront payments’. Vitol and its president Ian Taylor have close past links to Mr Duncan. In opposition his office received tens of thousands of pounds from Mr Taylor via donations to the Conservative Party.
Labour MP Kevan Jones last night said: ‘There are serious questions here for Mr Duncan about conflicts of interest. The Government should now publish the minutes of all meetings at which Vitol’s involvement was discussed.’
link to dailymail.co.uk
26 Sep 2012:
Vitol faces questions on trade with Iran
Vitol, the oil trader whose chief executive is a Tory donor, bought Iranian oil products, undermining Western efforts to stem Iran’s trade through sanctions. The company, run by Ian Taylor, admitted it had allowed its Bahraini subsidiary to buy a cargo of fuel oil of Iranian origin in July – after the EU had imposed sanctions on Iranian oil trades.
link to telegraph.co.uk
26 March 2012:
David Cameron today faced demands for an independent inquiry into ‘cash for access’ allegations after he confirmed he had wined and diners wealthy individuals – who had between them donated millions of pounds to the Conservative Party – at Downing Street and Chequers.
On November 2 2011, Mr Cameron held a ‘social dinner for strong and long-term supporters of the party, with whom the PM has a strong relationship’, including Mr Farmer, the banker and Tory donor Henry Angest and oil company boss Ian Taylor.
The 12 dinner-party guests at Downing Street had between them given almost £18 million to the Conservatives since Mr Cameron became leader.
In a clear reference to last week’s announcement of a cut from 50p to 45p in the top rate of income tax on earnings over £150,000, [Labour leader Ed Miliband] added: ‘I bet they did alright out of last week’s Budget.’
link to dailymail.co.uk
30 December 2012:
THE world’s largest oil trader is set for a showdown with the UK taxman over an offshore pay scheme that let its top staff avoid millions of pounds in tax.
Vitol, which is based in Geneva but employs 190 people at its central London office, opened negotiations after HM Revenue & Customs issued a demand for back taxes.
link to thesundaytimes.co.uk
Ian Taylor, chief executive of Vitol, told The Sunday Times: “We will have to pay something. We will work hard to do what is best for our employees, but we must abide by the legislation – and we will.”
link to telegraph.co.uk
Aside from what the article says (which is frankly absurd and offensive twaddle), the point is the defilement of the national flag of Scotland, by linking it to nazism and the KKK (Klan Alba).
The Saltire is the oldest national flag in the world. It is the flag of Scotland, and for all Scots. It is not the flag of the SNP or even the independence campaign. For ANY newspaper to treat OUR national flag in this way is disgraceful. I might be wrong, but perhaps others can inform me, but would not this be prosecuted if done in Germany?? I do wonder what the German Government think of this??
No, forget independence, this is a slur against ALL Scotland and ALL Scots, including those SCOTS who fought and died to defeat the scourge of Nazism.
The editor of the laughingly and disgracefully titled’ Scotsman’ ‘news’paper should resign.
This is a matter that needs addressed by our First Minister. Not regarding the article, but the defilemt of the Scottish national flag, which offends everybody. It is an open goal.
Re SOS image, just looked at the back of my copy of Tom Devine’s The Scottish Nation and the credit for the photo is
Ian Rutherford/Scotsman Publications Ltd ….. they’ll own the copyright
I did mean to say, that it is clear the Unionist cabal are feart. They have made no impact whatsoever on poll results, despite months and months of propagandist BBC and media fuelled lies about independence.
Given the weight of media influence and their near direct control over biased, propagandist BBC coverage by the British National unionists, we should expect Scots to overwhelmingly vote for the union. All the polls suggest they won’t.
This tells us a great deal. Firstly Scots are more savvy than unionists think, and secondly, the case for keeping London colonial rule over Scotland is very, very weak.
That is why I now know we will win.
@ G Campbel,
fantastic post bud.
I am unable to look at the herald article at the moment, but can someone confirm or otherwise, that the Bob Finch named in G Campbels post, also contributed to the Bitter Together campaign, to the tune of £25,000, he is listed in the Herald article as a director of HSBC.
How on earth did someone with such a shady past (clearly known by our political elite) manage to get to be the chairman of one of our banks ?
This system is rotten to the very core !!! VOTE YES !
@Morag
Just had a read of the article, not sure how the paragraph below counts as reasonable by any standards, and without writing reams on the subject Wales has had a fairly agressive anti-settler movement and I’m fairly sure their ‘presence of Asian immigrants’ is much the same as Scotland. So a few posh chaps, Duke of Buccleuch for example, and assorted few others displayed Nazi sympathies, though news to me, as a Dundonian, this group includes a Dundee hairdresser. But how does one Dundonian hairdresser compare with the hundreds from Dundee that fought against fascism in Spain? As they say it’s all relative, unless you’re trying to sell a book.
The National Front never reached the peaks of popularity achieved in England, which is partly down to the weak presence of Asian immigrants. But another explanation for the Far Right’s failure was the rise of a competing nationalism, which has often taken on an ethnic rather than civic hue, with its paramilitary Seed of the Gael, Settler Watch and anti-English Braveheart hysteria.
Yet the press say there is no need for any change in the laws ,Leveson is a load of nonsense the press can be trusted to self regulate,
Tomorrow morning the Scottish Government should ring in the harshest regime possible.
Can you imagine the outcry if a Nationalist leaning publication did something similar with the Butcher’s Apron?
How about super imposing pictures of all the BT leaders in SS uniforms ,surely some IT savvy person could do that
Rod Mac,
“How about super imposing pictures of all the BT leaders in SS uniforms ,surely some IT savvy person could do that”
Tempting as that may sound, I do not think we should drag ourselves down to the gutter inhabited by the Bitter together campaign, and the British Nationalists.
GMS managed to do a review of the Sunday papers without mentioning the ‘Klan’ photie. They definitely had a copy of SoS – mentioned their story about a councillor who claims to work miracles or somesuch tosh…
Perhaps we all just imagined it.
@ Albalha
Ownership of the copyright will verymuch depend on whether or not it was commissioned by Tom Devine and the agreement/contract between him and the photographer. In normal circumstances a photographer would reserve the copyright of his images, however, the contract could well have stipulated that the author as commissioner reserved ownership of copyright.
Having said that it’s unlikely that the author would have foreseen the image being distorted in the manner it has been and would not have been interested in retaining copyright.
The image itself is a rip off of the US Marines raising the stars and stripes over Iwo Jima WWII.
I am truly shocked that people supporting BT feel that it is worth defiling the saltire in order to smear the Scottish independence movement. It really shows what people think of a national flag (and the aspirations of a people) when they are prepared to defile it in this way. I would not think of defiling the union flag, because although I do not support the union, I respect the fact that it means a lot to many people. The saltire also means a lot to many people, so why offend them? If they care so little about the saltire, why does it feature in their logl? Why don’t they use the SS (oops SoS) version in the BT logo?
@boorach
Take your points, I was being shorthand in my point, I reckon the image existed already, Penguin the publisers asked to use it for the front cover, not sure how much say an author has over it. Of course the photographer Ian Rutherford would be best placed to respond!
Surely there must be some serious consequences for defiling the saltire in this manner. The Scotsman should be brought to book over this, it should be seen as a crime. I think they are doing every low, dirty stinking thing possible to goad the Scottish govt and people into getting down and scraping in the mud with them. They are hoping to get as violent a reaction as possible that they would be able to newsflash all around the world. This is a war and we have to time the forward advance just right. In the meantime hold……hold…….I think Alex Salmond has the measure of this and will know just when the time is right to advance. In the meantime I posted this in the Scotsman. “None of the lies printed in this rag will ever define Scottish people. Nor will it ever confine Scottish people, we will move on and leave it all behind us.” I believe it.
@RodMac
Suggest you look at the Home Page now.
I hope that Tom Devine writes to the Editor of the Scotsman and gives it to him full blast .
“Surely there must be some serious consequences for defiling the saltire in this manner. The Scotsman should be brought to book over this, it should be seen as a crime. ”
Christ on a bike, do you hear yourself??
I’m voting yes DESPITE this sort of cretinism.
@Morag
‘I find it difficult to believe that most Scots seeing that image would be anything other than outraged. And not at the SNP. But what do I know?’
Unfortunately there are many people in Scotland who believe this nonsense. This article was a smear attack on the SNP and independence. The article linked the SNP with the BNP, and other fascist groups. It even called it the “nationalist family.”
“I’m sure it does. But as a general principle rather than a comment on your personal position, there comes a point where we SHOULD be reducing people’s incentive to work. The real debate is simply over where that point should be.”
I agree there is a point but the knee jerk reaction to just taxing the workers to pay for the non workers is just as poor an argument that the benefits system is too good as too many people are on it. The rich are already rich and wealthy, those earning good wages are a simple target as all their ‘wealth’ comes monthly in PAYE form.
We need to look at fair tax and ensure that everyone who makes money takes some burden. As it stands today we have corporations make billions and pay little or nothing. We have people who literally made millions by buying a house and its not counted as earnings.
The current fiscal policy of the Government promotes the needs of those in debt while the non profligate are being punished. Hardly a free market in any sense, its like reverse socialism.
Housing costs are a major part of the issue, house prices and rent need to fall to levels in line with wages. If London is a caricature of the UK then it has all the good and bad points including excessive housing costs. That is why housing benefit is being targeted, because its a big issue in London.
Gideon is attacking the symptom, not the disease. However to do the right thing would lose them power, so that won’t happen.
Has anyone done the maths on what our monthly growth rate has to be to win? And how does that translate in to numbers of people need to be converted monthly per thousand YES supporters?
On a 70% turnout we need 35% +1, or 1,403,501 if you prefer.