A time to choose
Posted on
September 09, 2014 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
The world's most-read Scottish politics website
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Wings Over Scotland is a (mainly) Scottish political media digest and monitor, which also offers its own commentary. (More)
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A tall tale
Wee Books
Video
Probably a robbery
Transphobia
Sorry Stu, cant access archive sites from work.
Could you maybe even stick a small thumbnail image of each choice for us work-restricted folk please?
(Please delete this request as appropriate)
It’s no choice at all is it?
Thoughtful introspection versus egotistical grandstanding.
I don’t know why voters haven’t been reminded of this, but we are a Union that wins wars. We licked Napoleon, we licked the Kaiser, we licked Hitler and we licked Galtieri.
Will someone please remind me later to write a nice wee thank you note to Tim Stanley. How nice of Dim Tim to think that we are great together as a UNION because we go around the world kicking the earse of anyone who dares stand in OUR way.
Next time we go to kick some foreign government’s head in can we please arrange to have Dim Tim land in the first wave. I’m sure with all his pomp and circumstance bellowing in his ears he’s win the war practically single handedly! MUPPET!
committed sins together such as slavery and imperialism. But we’ve atoned for them together, too: abolishing the former and ending the latter with remarkable courtesy.
erm, is it just me or does imperialism continue so long as a country like, say, Scotland is still ruled by the empire?
Courtesy? Dont make me laugh.
A bit like Noam Chomsky v Richard Madeley on the thinking front.
This says it all really – link to en.wikipedia.org
Does Richard Madeley actually do any thinking MM? 😉
REALLY? 😛
Wow! That Telegraph article’s last paragraph actually gave me the dry boak.
‘Obnoxiously proud’ – no training needed for that then…
No brainer the 1 st one.
Vote yes
“Compassion and empathy will be essential in the days to come, as thousands of people figure out how to cope with their loss.” Andrew Eaton-Lewis needs to tell his family that they will still be British but soon they can be both British and Scots.
Probably the dreariest part of all this, has been the amount of NO’s who simply do not want Scotland to exist other than just another region of the UK. We’re about to get a demonstration of that odd sentiment as the Orange Order marches through Scotland’s capital city this weekend. Good times.
Ugh… you linked to the Telegraph..that was a bit harsh. Must have missed the bit in history lessons where the UK started to lick opponents in wars. What was it, Battle of the Slever? Agree, it’s no choice at all
Mark’s Mantra:
Keep calm, keep canvassing & keep converting.
Keep calm, keep canvassing & keep converting.
Keep calm, keep canvassing & keep converting.
…
😉
the torygraph just dont get it do they.A friend of hubbys has come out for YES recently,he was bought up in manchester and says he is sick of this Great British stuff and how we won the war.
He wants Scotland to be a peaceful country and knows only a yes vote will achive this.
The first article brought a tear to my eye, the second just disgust for what the author believes in.
That is the stark reality of the choice we are being asked to make.
Hope and Compassion or Fear and Loathing for the future. Thye choice is OURS.
For many years, I have thought that the UK establishment would need to experience a real shock to the system, a complete and utter international humiliation, something that could not be denied or conveniently swept under the carpet. This was required in order for the UK to face itself, humbly, and realign itself to become what it should be, a peaceful, medium-sized democracy that helped other countries without participating invasions, or meddling in their affairs.
I never once during that time considered that it might be a vote for Scottish independence would be the shock required, but now I am beginning to wonder. It is certainly of the scale required.
Here’s hoping.
Yes Scotland is a face-to-face grassroots campaign knocking on doors, setting up stalls and attending public meetings.
Better Together is a top down campaign which calls upon high for others to do the leg work.
You know which one is winning.
oo, what patronising twaddle that historian writes, where did he get his degree from?
A Kellogs box?
Burns wrote in English my arse!
Compassion over (I am afraid to say) someone whom even God would question as being one of his and that is putting it very sweetly. For me, I’d just hit him. I can’t read this bile anymore.
@Luigi
Irish independence should have been a similar shock, so should losing India, the jewel in the crown. Yet those didn’t have the necessary effect.
Lulled by the BBC weather map many in the establishment think Scotland is the same relative size as its population. The jibe that we are too small is seriously meant too. To them we really do seem too small to bother with.
Also as Alex Salmond has pointed out the social union will continue. When the six nations kicks off again in 2016 the Calcutta Cup will still be played for as though nothing has happened. For Irish rugby nothing did (to their credit btw).
It will take an Olympics perhaps with Scottish athletes that formerly competed for Britain denying Britons their ‘rightful’ medals (hopefully). That might do it.
Since we will get a CU the economic pain of losing Scotland will be muted too. Though the loss of the oil to the Westminster exchequer even though it will still be propping up the pound will have effects it depends on how honest the chancellor is about that. Though the opportunity to blame those selfish, greedy Scots for an unpopular policy will doubtless be too much to resist.
Historically Britain didnt beat Napoleon It was an allied effort,
same with the Kaiser. We didnt beat Hitler the Russians did and as for the Falklands the less said about Thatchers costly waste of life for an election campaign the better.
For being a historian the man has a weak grasp of the facts.
Especially just for you Muscleguy. 😛
link to tinyurl.com
Indeed we are a grassroots campaign. I must prepare soon and catch the bus to tonight’s canvass for RIC here in Dundee. I have never had to sign my membership, just supply name and mobile # for safety reasons each canvass.
I think I shall feel like a spare part after the 18th. I have caught the bug of activism. Street politics is fun, if you have sufficient conviction in your cause. I still don’t think I’m cut out for party politics but a cause, yes. Maybe CND to keep up the pressure for Trident going sooner rather than later.
[…] A time to choose […]
Keep campaigning
Keep campaigning
Keep campaigning
rinse and repeat
We licked Napoleon, we licked the Kaiser, we licked Hitler and we licked Galtieri. Doctor Tim needs a good boot up the arse really. He’s a far right academic in the US but for any academic anywhere, other than a propagandist which is all this buffoon is, to come out with we licked Hitler is just disgraceful.
Hitler and Nazi Germany was defeated by Russia mainly. Nearly 27 million Russians died in WW2 and Stalin spent years imploring Churchill to get involved. Churchill refused until the US was ready.
This says it all for me:
link to scottcreighton.co.uk
denmark; no one rich, no one poor, that’ll do me.
their is no transcendence no patriotism if it is to a paymaster, think one thing, do another.
no freedom, unless actions match freewill.
we were thrown into war with no choice.
the working classes were/are treated like dogs.
we merely as coal is to the furnace, to provide wealth to those who stole the lands.
harry patch..”war is no more than organised mass slaughter.”
see “the cheviot, the stag, and the black, black oil.”
Muscleguy says:
I think I shall feel like a spare part after the 18th.
WHAT?
Are going overseas on the 19th Muscleguy?
Haven’t you heard?
There’s a MONTH long party starting on 19th so there will be nothing else to do for a month apart from eat, drink and be merry, very, very merry for a whole month! 😛
In fact I’m looking into where we can get suitable road signs made to be erected on the M74, A1 etc. You know the sort of thing:
“Scotland, is closed for 4 weeks due to an ongoing celebration. Please return in 4 weeks when we will be open for business as usual. We apologise for any inconvenience caused.” 😉
That piece reads like it is a deliberate wind up,unfortunately,it seems genuine.
Vote no, ‘cos we’re good at war. FFS.
Heard an absolute shocker today while out leafletting.
In Cupar today with my YES pal we asked a young man if he would like a leaflet. He beat his chest and said ”GOD AND COUNTRY”,
We said what.
”GOD SAVE THE QUEEN”
I said I fought for this country, to which he shouted ”THEN WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO BREAK UP THE UK”.
We had a shake of the head and when we got back to the van, a woman who had offered the same young man a leaflet, was quite upset. She had asked if he was voting and he told her that ”THEY” had been told how to vote.
Turns out he is a serving soldier and they have been told how to vote.
This is one of the worst things I have heard. So much for democracy, last night, breaking PURDAH and now telling the Army how to vote.
Anyone else hear about anything like this?
The time to choose right enough!
My partner has alerted me to this on her Facebook page.
link to facebook.com
Suspended and escorted off the Chapel Cross site all because he was wearing a ONE INCH YES badge! Petty does NOT even begin to describe what this sort of behaviour is like.
Wee Eck, BBC News 24, on Cameron’s visit up to the Jocks:-
“The least popular Tory PM in Scotland….. if he was getting the bus, I’d give him the bus fare.”
Happy days, brothers & sisters….
Alex Salmond basically tells David Cameron to do one on BBC News channel. Wee Hugh Edwards was loving it.
Now we have Sir Tom Hunter saying “Think of the children” and “Most scots believe in helping others” but wont say how his Postal Vote is looking but says it was based on “facts over emotion”…hmmm
@James Caithness – I was aware of that but remember in the privacy of the voting box they can vote how they like.
I hope James, that someone has had the sense to keep hold of any instructions they have been sent regarding their voting in the referendum.
After we win on 19th I want to see the heads of the M.O.D., Secretary of State for defence, Officer Commanding in Scotland ALL brought up on charges of interfering with a free vote in a democratic referendum.
No one should be allowed to get away Scot free with this level of interfering!
O/T but here is a wee photo of something Murph the Smurph was putting around Largs a couple of days ago.
link to facebook.com
O/T mark 2
For anyone wanting to know what the *ahem* great timetable looks like well this is it, apparently. 😉
link to facebook.com
Sorry for double post.
Lesley-Anne
and there’s me thinking we have a ballot paper!
O/T
FM answers Question at 7pm
link to facebook.com
@heedtracker
Regarding Russia in World War Two: since when did cold facts and logic come into it with the Brit nats! The British empire did play a major and significant role in the defeat of the Nazis, particularly from before Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, and then with D-day etc. However, this myth that they have, that “we” beat Hitler on our own, is garbage.
Watching Tom Devine versus Ferguson on Newsnight, and Lindsay McIntosh and then James Cook say “we”, when talking about the No campaign, is revealing. If there is a Yes vote, the MSM will go into a meltdown. They are mostly right wing Brit nats, and they going to go batshit crazy. They do not appear to have much, if any, of a social conscience. They never talk about ordinary people. It is always the markets, Westminster, London, Downing Street blah blah.
@A N Surgent
Quite right. “WE” didn’t win the war – “we” were on the winning side. A different matter entirely.
“Sorry for double post.”
Don’t post apologising for double posts, please, folks. It just doubles the work for me, because I have to delete the double post, and then I have to delete the post apologising for the double post because it no longer makes sense.
If I don’t spot it myself, email me about it.
“an independent socialist utopia with free kittens for all”
Where do we sign up!!??
“The rugged, gorgeous coast of Northern Ireland.” What about the rugged, gorgeous coast of south-west Ireland? Oh, I forgot, they left the Union less than 100 years ago. Very inconvenient but never mind, I’m sure they are regretting it and will be clamouring to get back in after the certainty of a “No” vote.
That Dr Tim Stanley on the Telegraph, he probably doesn’t see anything wrong with what he’s saying. He will actually believe what he has written is a true depiction of Britain. He cannot comprehend that many Scots, myself included, read it and think ….”yea, that reminds me exactly why Scotland needs to be independent” !
It’s a double whammy … firstly that’s not the way we see Imperial Britain … and secondly we can’t understand why some prople actually accept those myths.
From that ghastly article:
“Proud of the country that invented economics, the internet,”
Internet? Internet was devised by Americans. He’s probably thinking of Tim Berners-Lee who invented the WWW. Different things entirely.
Yet this guy is presumably a PhD whose interest is in American history? FFS.
Mind you the whole article is just a load of mawkish, saccharine, butchers-apron festooned pish.
Regarding any instructions given to serving members of the forces I doubt there will be anything in writing. They will almost certainly have been given verbally and probably not in the presence of SNCO’s who would know this contravenes Queens Reg’s. You would need to get a couple of them (for corroboration) to go on record to pursue it which will probably be quite difficult.
There’s two sides to every story I guess.
It’s just that one half ‘gets it’
while the other half don’t.
And what we all get with a Yes vote
is a GUARANTEE that Scotland will be in Scotland’s hands, that Scotland need never be ruled by a Tory government again,
and that Scotland will be far better off as an Independent country,
and the NHS will be secure in Scottish hands.
Voting No is just a GUARANTEE of disaster for Scotland.
The dogs in the street know that, as they say in the more affluent parts of Glasgow.
I’ve a cupboard full of guarantees and each one is worth holding onto. But none of them will ever mean as much to me as the guarantee I’m going to get, along with the rest of Scotland, when that Yes result is announced.
Vote YES -for a democratic and economic GUARANTEE FOR LIFE.
Thanks for your input RMAC. I knew it would have been a long shot but thought it might have been a chance to really give the Bullingdon Club a kicking when they were still down after a YES win. 😛
My uncle from Lumphinnans (now dead) ‘desert rat’ used to say to me on our walks round Hill-of-Beath bings when I was about 6
” Dauvid son, never forget England stood alone” winking as he said it.
My father settled for the RAF too much hassle on the ground he said.
We were being patronised then and patronised now.
packhorsepete
The thing that britain did give to the world during the war was hope
Waiting to cross the road, just left work, the corner of
Cockburn St and Market St.
Nods to to a Fellow YES Badge Bearer and prepares to cross the street.
Tap on the shoulder. FYBB asks “You any spare WBBs?”
“Aye, ah’ve got three left.” Fumbles in thigh pocket.
“Jist the one.” Takes the WBB. “Ah’ve Plenty cairds left though”
“Gies some o them then” Trades.
“Cheers.”
Both walk away, sure we are winning…
I’m really amazed at all this bringing up of the war thingy by the Westminster gang.
First off, after WW II what happened to everyone who survived the war who flew in Bomber Command? Oh that’s right they were all swept under the carpet until some nerd in Whitehall got a wee bit upset a few years ago and they erected a monument. BRILLIANT … erm no it bloody isn’t where’s the medals these guys fought and died for? THEY deserve a great deal MORE recognition than they have ever received from WM
Secondly, what happened to the proud respect that was given to everyone who sailed in the Arctic convoys? Oh that’s right Gordon Brown awarded them all a pin badge. A bloody PIN BADGE. Thankfully they now have a proper medal but yet again why did they have to wait so long?
Both of these cases are excellent examples of Westminster using and abusing the young of our country.
Only by voting YES can we ensure that should, heaven forbid, we ever get drawn into another war at least our young brave fighting men and women will be properly recognised and honoured at the time and not have to wait DECADES for it to happen!
rant over. 😉
Waiting for Gordo!
He’s on the ‘better together’ radio ad, still telling lies though.
Its not about flags but you have to laugh at miliband raising saltire in liverpool when labour councils in scotland removed saltire from town halls
I read ‘this’ with understanding and ‘this’ I couldn’t get passed the first paragraph. I tried, I really tried. It will be YES because otherwise Scotland is f*cked.
I recall Californians placing thousands of candles on the beach front at night to signify those who had needlessly died in Iraq …. and it wasn’t to glorify war, or say the USA was the biggest, most powerful, cocksure country in the world.
Well I’ve had enough. I’m to say the the least raging.
So bad, that my daugther has just said “I can’t wait until the referendums over so that I can get my mum back.”
Just stuck a poster on my window.
Democracy is dead, long live Westminster rule.
The Con/Libs and BetterTogether have broken a legally binding document. How can you trust them?
Those who remember 1979, remember the aftermath and I am one of them. Just leaving school to set out on a journey.
Beautifully written and poignant by Andrew Eaton-Lewis. He captures the crux of why this was always going to be a close race. His disillusionment with the avariciousness celebrated in Westminsiter won him over to Independence but I think its harsh to equate nationalism with negitivity. There’s a difference in pride, celebration of ones nation and imperialism, which is still a powerful creed in Westminster. The former is respectful to this diverse world, the latter at best is condescending.
Carney, Governor of the Bank of (UK) England, has said if all the political parties are set against currency union a shared currency is not compatible with a sovereign state.
This will have the No camp cheering.
‘Keep Scotland poor!’
But he did not say it was a non-starter if they break ranks or the economy forces common sense.
This is England telling Scotland as far as full democratic rights are concerned we can go screw ourselves.
All the love bombing is fraudulant.
And that includes from Her Majesty, if we are to judge by today’s propaganda recordings exploited from the 1970s.
He also said that wages will start to rise again next year on account that unemployment is forecast to fall to around 5.6 percent. Their forecasts have been so good to date; it is founded on the theory that the economy is recovering; and he does not expain why that level of unemployment does not represent continuing lack of bargaining power for the workforce, as their notion of NAIRU is deliberately designed to do.
Carney speaks his master’s voice, is all 😉
Murphy on sky with sore tonsils. Aah!
The visitors (Ed Cameron etal) will not be welcome says Adam Boulton.
Murphy mutters inconsequential twaddle.
Kenny McK says decisions will all be made in Scotland.
Social ties will continue.
Murphy is hopeless at thinking on his feet only repeats his ‘better together’ script when given a second try.
Now interrupting McK all the time, sore throat mysteriously disappears. 🙂
Both cut off as it gets a bit chaotic in a shouting match.
Dearie dear!
11WW in Europe
26Million Russiabs died (1 in 4)
8 Million Germans
6 Million Poles
6 Million Jews
2 Million Americans
1/2 Million French
1/2 Million British
Geographically an army can sweep into Russia. The Russian Stepps, but once in, it is difficult to get out, especially in the winter. The Russian winter defeat Napolean. That is why the Russian are determined to protect their Borders, because of the 11WW. The 11WW devastated Russia. Poland was handed to Russian dominance at Yalta 11WW settlement, by the Allies
sinky says:
Its not about flags but you have to laugh at miliband raising saltire in liverpool when labour councils in Scotland removed saltire from town halls
——————————————
The Tory/Labour coalition on Stirling Council got into bother when they tried to remove the Saltire.
Proposed by Labour Councillor Danny Gibson and his Tory best chum Calum Campbell.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
I live in Australia and even from here nothing could be more obvious than that the confidentiality of the postal votes has been compromised and extrapolated to deliver a yes outcome. No one poll would elicit Westminster’s reaction unless they were privy to that information. Their panic response defies any other logical explanation.
Tim Berners-Lee has some claim to having invented the www – the worodl wide web – but he has no claim to having invented the Internet or even an internet, as such things existed years before. I used an internet in the early 70s for instance.
Ah well.
With regards war this is a comment I made in response to oldnat in 2009.
Some people will remember ‘oldnat’ from ‘Blether with Brian’ and later on at NNS. That was before the BBC shut down their web-blogs in Scotland whilst they retained all the others across the UK. Therefore it is a reminder of a forgotten era when Scots could question, or at least have some input into the BBC. Before the BBC became a fully paid up member of the UK establishment.
By the way the white Russians were the people/families that fled Stalin and sought refuge/exile in the UK. Little is shown in the history books about their demise and how Churchill had signed their death warrant.
By the way if you visit the link above it is useful to click the link in my comment to show the comment I was responding to.
Roll_On_2014,
“Before the BBC became a fully paid up member of the UK establishment.”
The BBC has ALWAYS been a paid up member of the UK establishment.
But like Scottish Labour it has duped people for a very long time. Both of them are like wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Same applies to the Electoral Commission.
For us on the Yes side, the bias, dishonesty and corruption of the BBC and the Electoral Commission is crystal clear.
Even if there is a rigged No win, we must neither forget nor forgive them.
@Lesley-Anne
I’m a pretty clean livin’ kinda guy. My body is a temple (forget the large Talisker I’m mellowing out from, that’s a very occasional vice). Alcohol gets in the way of the running you see. A month long party? Not my bag, got all the core body strength stuff to do to keep me running, the shoulder and arm exercises to stop them hurting me. I was fingering my custom hand made wobbleboard before while sipping my dram. Haven’t been on it in a while, too much canvassing to do.
Besides, a run is a great way to beat a hangover. The trick is to run far enough so that the dehydration is something your body knows how to handle while running, you’re burning the residual alcohols for fuel and the endorphins have killed your headache. I used to swear by 9miles but age has caught up with me and it’s 6 now. First thing mind, no crawling out of bed at 08:00. 06:00 before your brain cottons onto what you are about to do and gets cold feet, well any colder than they will be before the heating comes on.
Oh and I stopped enjoying being drunk over a decade ago. I get gently merry then I’m on the soft drink.
You see I figure the health service has enough to do without me pitching up with a preventable condition like heart disease, or cirrhosis. Some of us have to be healthy to carry those who aren’t. Some help with the cost of running shoes might be nice though I don’t see it happening, sadly.
I’ll be the guy running past the pub you are celebrating in in the rain. You’ll recognise me, this time of year I won’t be wearing a jacket. But I will have a large smile on my face. I LOVE running in the rain, running in the rain after a YES will such an incredible high.
Guys, I work as a Civil Servant for the MOD in Glasgow. Are any of you aware of what would become of my employment if I vote Yes?
Danny, Scotland will have its own defence ministry and will require people to administer the support functions. I’m pretty sure you’ll be safe or at least able to transfer to another division of Scotland’s Civil Service.
Remember that many functions carried out in other parts of the UK currently, will be required to be set up as free standing agencies in Scotland. Passports and Driver/Vehicle licensing spring to mind.
@Lesley-Anne says: 9 September, 2014 at 4:20 pm:
“I don’t know why voters haven’t been reminded of this, but we are a Union that wins wars. We licked Napoleon, we licked the Kaiser, we licked Hitler and we licked Galtieri.
Will someone please remind me later to write a nice wee thank you note to Tim Stanley. How nice of Dim Tim to think that we are great together as a UNION because we go around the world kicking the earse of anyone who dares stand in OUR way.
Next time we go to kick some foreign government’s head in can we please arrange to have Dim Tim land in the first wave. I’m sure with all his pomp and circumstance bellowing in his ears he’s win the war practically single handedly! MUPPET!”
Leslet-Anne has said all that needs said –
Next!
@Lesley-Anne
“O/T but here is a wee photo of something Murph the Smurph was putting around Largs a couple of days ago.”
link to facebook.com
Does anyone have photographic documentation that the BT were handing these leaflets out in Largs on Sunday and Monday? If so, it would be fantastic, as these leaflets, in my opinion, break Electoral Commission rules. Can anyone come up with the goods?
@danny
When your present employment ends on march 24 2016, you will either receive redundancy or be offered a job in the new department.
You may be given redundancy and be invited to apply for any of the new vacancies arising within a newly structured public/government service.
Stay strong.
Bit o/t.
My wife and i were walking an infirm friends dog at the kelpies today and met a couple of lovely ladies of older years who were up from london on a wee tour of Scotland in their VW camper van. Here until end of September.
They asked us if we were voting Yes or No, and why.
Obviously we were Yes, and i explained my reasonings to them.
They commented on how they have been asking Scots of all age gender etc how they would vote and why, and were stunned as they seriously had not had a single person who was a No in the time they had been in Scotland.
They asked loads of questions about the how’s and why’s and after about a good half hour they left.
It was brilliant to just relate some reality to people who by their own admission have had virtually no information from the english editions over the last 2 years as to what was actually going on up here.
The ladies are originally from the north of england despite living recently in london.
They were excited about the amount of interest and engagement in a political process, and wished us well for a Yes vote.
The parting shot from one of the ladies was to promise if they ever did meet a No voter, they would make it their mission to change their mind ‘for us’!
Gave them directions to wings and where to download a WBB to help them in their quest.
Happy to get converts every way we can, go yersel ladies!
If you happen to come across this post reading wings, sharon and gordon say hello and enjoy the rest of your stay.
Am amazed better together hasn’t came up with the idea of a rally held at Hampden with the 3 amigos all on stage together and use that big screen from the commonwealth games opening ceremony to show a viewing of the 66 World Cup final as evidence of how were better in a union.
I too disengaged from politics for far too long. Only in my case it was anger. To explain, I had always been a Scottish Nationalist, starting from Winnie Ewing and then to George Reid, to me, the most gifted, decent and humane MP ever. It was the greatest, proudest moment of my life when he got elected.
Then along came 1979 and then as now I remember the Labour Party mantra.
“Vote Labour and keep Thatcher Out” Repeated and repeated time after time. Blaring out from loudspeakers ad nauseum. I remember highlighting the positive to people. The good things George Reid had achieved. The esteem and respect in which he was held by politicians of all persuasions. The high regard in which he was held by the media.
My feelings went from humour -‘Do they really think the people can be taken in by something so absurd.’, to disbelief when they were’, to anger at the treatment of a great and dignified man and finally to despair and a sense of betrayal when I felt so disgusted with my own people for being so easily conned, I vowed never to return to politics.
Now 40 years on and the circle starts again.
Please God, dont let my people get fooled again