A second chance
Scottish Lib Dem leader Willie Rennie – a man who was at the heart of the “MemoGate” smear, quoted prominently in almost all the media coverage of the untrue slur against Nicola Sturgeon – has offered the opinion that former Secretary of State for Scotland Alistair Carmichael deserves a “second chance” after admitting being behind the fabricated story and then brazenly lying about it on national TV.
We agree with Mr Rennie.
We believe that Mr Carmichael deserves a second chance to be elected, but this time honestly. The only way that can happen is if he is removed as an MP and given the opportunity to present himself to the electorate again in the light of the revelations. If the voters of Orkney & Shetland weigh up all the facts and conclude that on balance Alistair Carmichael should continue to represent them in Parliament, fair enough.
We therefore draw readers’ attention to the above campaign which has been launched by some of Mr Carmichael’s constituents, which seeks to raise the money required to issue a legal challenge to his election as an MP earlier this month, on the grounds that his narrow 817-vote victory was gained on the basis of lying to voters and covering up that lie until after the election, which may constitute an offence under the Representation of the People Act 1983.
The campaign requires just £6,000 to file the complaint, with the rest of the target sum being set against possible costs. Any unused funds will be donated to charity.
I’ve chipped in as it’s a good cause.
Bit confused as to whether they need a minimum of £6000 or the target figure on their site £60000.
Anyhoo! Good luck to them.
I believe it’s his constituents that deserves a second chance to get rid of the lying lib.
Sorry (just read the last sentence above
£6000 it is then.
Will be done before midnight I’m sure. Time is short folks.
Good luck to them.
In the meantime, on Radio Scotland, the Beattie Show is approaching end of its first half-hour – there has been no mention of Carmichael, Bruce, and the growing protests.
Let’s see if it gets a mention on the 12.30 headlines…
Sturgeon on cuts, EU referendum…
John Swinney on living-wage…
Trial of insider-dealer/LIBOR…
Iraq govt offensive against ISIS…
Scotland’s A&E depts still missing targets…
Police in Nevada launch murder investigation into BB King’s death…
Nope. No mention.
Why don’t they just call it The Lunchtime Memory Hole?
goal says £60,000?
Just contributed to the “get Carmichael” campaign! Did I really write that? Come on folks! If you can afford it we must rid ourselves of these troughing unionist swine!
It’s gone past the 3000 quid mark already! Well done everyone, should be at 6000, in the next 20 minutes at this rate!
contributed and shared. restorative justice. they can’t just take the pish out of us.
I think he should be allowed to remain as an example of the Ancien Regime, and what we’re all trying get away from
Headlines on the grauniad. 1000+ comments. he’s taking the pish out of the electorate and discrediting the whole edifice – i sense pressure is growing and that he’ll end up as toast. he can’t be seen to be shitting in his feather-bedded nest. sorry about all these metaphors grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Just contributed.
Glad that I could play a small part in trying to help the people of Orkney and Shetland try and get a politician with integrity to represent them.
I’m confused here – how much are they trying to raise? You said £6,000 to file the complaint, but it says the goal is £60,000?
Can someone clarify please?
Chipped in. It’s over £4,000 now
Just contributed.
Total is over £4,250 of £6,000 needed to lodge legal papers.
Don’t forget this – every little helps!
link to change.org?
£4240 as of a couple of minutes ago – and climbing! Come on folks – we love a good fundraiser – just love hitting that refresh button and watching the total go up
Tell me one time in history when nationalism has been a force for progress and good,
And while your at it please tell me exactly how the scottish and english people are so different.
@ Heather
They need an initial £6,000 to file the complaint which has to be done by Friday 29th. They may then need more to fight the case if contested. If they don’t need all the money raised they will distribute to charity. Details are on their campaign fundraiser site.
Bruce on BiasBBC website this morning saying politicians lying is widespread, so what ? However report also said Ali C held onto his seat by 2000 votes – now corrected to the measly 817 it really was. They just love to try and fool us don’t they ?
Seriously,
Can someone please explain to me exactly how the arguments for staying in the EU are different from those for staying in the UK?
And how is it unfair for scotland to be removed from the EU by the of the UK but fair for scotland to force the rest of the UK to stay in the EU?
I can’t find the actual amount required, Heather McLean. But it is necessary to pay money upfront to bring any kind of case to court. The fees are set by the SoS for Scotland, I believe, by Statutory Instrument.
Those fees are fixed and cannot be avoided. Completely separate is the cost of legal representation, and in such a case that would be necessary, I think, because of rights of audience (not sure about that) and for practical reasons. Those costs will be far higher than the court fees.
I suspect the £6000 relates to court fees, and £60,000 an estimate of total cost.
Certainly my own wee case, cost £304 just to get it into court. A lawyer I spoke to told me that representation would likely cost £40,000. So I had to do it myself
So proud of democracy in Scotland 2015…
People who hold opposing views and ask difficult questions are called ‘trolls’ and no voters are labeled ‘("Tractor" - Ed)s’
You have contributed nothing to this site. Why should we tell you anything?
Done.
BTW typed in my CC details before I realised Paypal was off screen bottom.
Just donated, the total’s moving along nicely.
Finding it hard to get onto crowd funding website
Good luck to them. Was a wee bit confused about the £6,000 and £60,000 targets – got it now.
I’m in! Another day in the UKOK lie machine.
Spot latest THE Graun whoppers.
link to archive.is
“Carmichael, the former Scottish secretary, is accused of having misled the public about his knowledge of a leak to the Daily Telegraph of an account of a meeting between Sturgeon and the French ambassador, alleging that Sturgeon said she would prefer David Cameron to Ed Miliband as prime minister. The SNP is demanding that Carmichael resign.”
“Accused” is not what happened and everyone is “demanding” the fraud go silly Libby Carrell.
Fair enough this bettertogether lot said vote LibDem for a better tomorrow five years ago.
I’ve just made a contribution too. Isn’t the Internet just wonderful! No hiding place for the crooks and liars now.
O/T apology
I would like to point something out here. The following is taken from a much longer post in ‘The House of Liars’.
It relates to an excerpt from the Heywood Inquiry Report.
”An official mobile phone was used to make telephone calls to one of the authors of the Daily Telegraph story. This phone was held by Euan Roddin, previously Special Adviser to the then Secretary of State for Scotland, Alistair Carmichael. Mr Roddin confirmed that he provided a copy of the Scotland Office memo to a Daily Telegraph journalist on 1 April 2015, and discussed the memo with the journalist on a number of occasions.”
This account doesn’t actually tell us who made the phone calls to the journalist at the Telegraph.
It says that the phone was held by Euan Roddin and then … jumps to …. ‘he provided the memo to the Telegraph’.
This isn’t stating that Euan Roddin made the phone calls at all. ‘HELD BY’. Meaning what? It was his phone? Or maybe he was holding the phone (in his hand) to enable Mundell to speak to the journalist, lol.
I’ve donated to this worthy cause. I imagine if it goes ahead it will be reported truthfully in MSM ?
Radio Scotland have mentioned M Bruce,s silly comments this morning. Maybe realising this isn’t going away?
Donated to Carmichael,s investigation ( hopefully ) and shared on Facebook.
Might be an idea for the organisers of the fundraiser to come on here and say exactly how much is required, seeing as there’s been a hurriedly done mis-spell on the amount.
There will be an amount required over the £6k to make sure they get the £6k required for the legal action.
Just an idea, currently sitting on £4,8k at 1:35pm
Have just contributed to The People versus Carmichael, feels good.
Page not found?
Yes Orkney have to raise enough for initial deposit (£6000) to lodge with the court papers but they also need enough to pursue the case hence the goal of £60,000.
They have committed on the appeal site to distribute any unused funds to Scottish foodbanks.
They have 9% of total so far so get the word out!
Payment made… Good luck! Hope you get rid of this poor excuse for a man ????
£100 well spent – nearly at the £6000 mark BUT I note that the target is actually £60,000 so will you all please copy it to your friends?
Ahh had to just go to indiegogo. Link didn’t like my phone
@Yoda – this is only my take and I am not going to get into a debate about it – so take it or leave it.
At present, as part of the UK, Scotland has in essence no separate voice at the EU table which means we cannot argue our own case fully when it comes to fishing or agriculture or whatever whereas countries like Ireland and Denmark can and as a consequence have more power, more respect, more sway within the EU.
For an example of why that matters and how Scotland has been shafted by this look at what happened to the hill farm subsidies which were intended to help poor Scottish hill farmers but ended up in the pockets of wealthier farmers elsewhere in the UK.
At present everyone living in the UK who holds a UK or EU passport is a “citizen” of the the EU. Citizens have a right to remain so if they choose.
If one part of the UK votes to leave the EU but another votes to stay that other will not be forcing the rest of the UK to stay in the EU. Rather it will have a legitimate reason for asking its citizens whether they wish to remain part of a UK outside of the EU.
I think it’s what our First Minister calls a “a material change in circumstances”.
Boom – £6k smashed right now – they are in the game!!
Well, Today – the British would tell you that their “nationalism is good”. Look at the fortunes it made for the rich while the poor went out and fought for them! Mind you, I must say that they disapprove of anyone else’s nationalism – so they must be right. I suppose the French, Germans, Spanish, Portuguese and any other nationality you care to mention are all the same then? Time to grow up – Today would do!
Petra,
As I said this story has a long way to go!
To quote Walter Scott
Oh, what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive!
Love it, the names: alistair darling, and kenneth clark, are funders on the indiego crowdfunder, even if they are genuinely someone’s name, still amusing to think of them being the actual politicians funding a removal of Carmichael!
Some one should put mundell, nick clegg, et al too! lol.
just under 150 to go before reaching the 6000 mark! (okay it wasn’t 20 minutes…a person can dream…)
@Yoda:
1) It comes down – as usual – to sovereignty. As a member of the EU, an independent Scotland would have the same right as other sovereign nations, a right which it does not have as a part of an incorporating union.
2) Neither are ‘fair’ – obviously. But if we are going to have unfairness, let’s have it on equal terms. Of course there’s an obvious solution – which I won’t insult your intelligence with.
It’s up to 7 thousand now! Excellent!
To clarify the crowd funder
6k is needed by tomorrow to file the initial papers before the 21 day deadline
The 60k needed is an estimate of possible TOTAL costs , any excess to be donated to foodbanks
It has been confirmed as legit by all reliable sources
This will not only get Carmichael into court but surely MUST make the media sit up and take notice! Constituents taking an mp to court for lying to them is unheard of! This has the potential to be a HUGE story!
The more and faster the money goes up , the greater the public outrage is evident.
Can MSM really ignore that?
£50 shy of £7k in 15 hours, well done guys. Bit skint myself just now but will stick something in later to try get it up to £60k
Again, well done, this SHOULD make the news
Alistair Carmichael speaking at the declaration on May 8th :- “What we now have in Scotland is a politics that is completely, radically and fundamentally altered. And it is going to take us all time to come to terms with that,” he said. (shetlandtimes.co.uk/2015/05/08/carmichael-reacts-after-narrow-election-win)
Seems like Alistair is taking longer than everyone else to come to terms with the fact that in the radically altered Scottish politics, bare faced lying on TV and hiding the truth from your constituents prior to an election, is just not on.
Question for his constituents :- How can a man who is a known liar and hypocrite throughout the UK, represent them at Westminster. No one will listen to him. And when he gets up to speak in the House, he will be greeted with derision. Carmichael has perpetrated a fraud several time over. His position is untenable, and the reputation and credibility of both government and democracy in the UK is evaporating by the minute.
I’ve tried and tried to give to this site but it kept taking me off Facebook and now it’s frozen on me, any other way I can contribute?
Now well over the £6k to raise the initial action.
Yes Orkney have been advised that a full legal challenge may cost as much as 50k hence the target of 60k. More roughers getting their slice.
Great for ordinary Scots having a chance to challenge the Establishment. The legal system is of coarse there to protect –who. Those who paid for it to be written.
The famous quote “the poor had no lawyers”
13.50pm and it now stands at £7k, the power of Wings. Share the he’ll out of it folks. I will do some Yes FB pages.
Remember, any unused money will go to Scottish food banks, so all good.
We need the Press to get wind.
Doesn’t the appeal have to be lodged by this Thursday? Do they need the £6k immediately to lodge the appeal (it’s currently at £7,120)? If so, will Indigogo allow them to take the money out befor eit has reached the 60k target?
Any–I’m off now to chuck a few quid in the tin.
Hope you’re watching this Carmichael–People Power in Action. Hope you have a good lawyer–preferably one that doesn’t lie.
Hope my contribution helps to remove AlisLIAR Carmichael.
Just contributed to this worthy cause.
Away now to drum up support.
Does anyone know if it is legal for someone outside of the UK, and not on the UK electoral roll, to contribute to the financial costs of this action?
There is money coming in almost every minute! Thanks to Rev. for posting!
Alistair Darling has even chucked in a tenner!!! Lol
Just contributed to this worthy cause.
Hello MI5/6-ers, especially those of you currently stationed in the ‘Scottish Office’. You are one of the main reasons I have donated £100 to this crowd-funder. Tick Tock…
@ proud cybernat
I don’t think there’s an issue with taking money out. In any case a decent lawyer will act for them if they demonstrate they have the money without being paid up front.
Could be a very good case for a lawyer actually. Could become very high profile
Read the article and donated straight away.
This issue is very important because a threshold has been crossed. A public servant has openly admitted to deceiving and lying but still thinks he should not suffer any consequences.
We must take a stand now, so donate.
Oh, and by the way Yoda, just f*** o**.
I would think ProudCybernat that just having the money ‘in the bank’ is sufficient for them to lodge it immediately now. Think about it, when you employ a lawyer, you don’t actually gie them the money upfront, they ‘bill’ you fur it later oan
The crowdfund is their bank account, which shows they have the money.
Can I put a reality check.
Technically MP’s are forbidden to resign their seats although not to seek re-election.
The dice are loaded to protect who?
He would have to be appointed to an ” office of profit” under the Crown.
All the cards are stacked against challenge to the Establishment. They have been protecting their “privilege” for centuries. Written and amending the law for their own ends.
Rarely is their the opportunity for ordinary Scots to challenge the Establishment and use their Laws against them.
So lets support 100% this opportunity. Let it become a beacon for more challenges for ordinary Scots to regain our country, our heritage ,our land our well being.
@ Yoda says ”Seriously, can someone please explain to me exactly how the arguments for staying in the EU are different from those for staying in the UK?
And how is it unfair for scotland to be removed from the EU by the of the UK but fair for scotland to force the rest of the UK to stay in the EU?
So proud of democracy in Scotland 2015…
People who hold opposing views and ask difficult questions are called ‘trolls’ and no voters are labeled ‘(“Tractor” – Ed)s”
Yoda I’m not going to call you a troll. Many people congregating to sing from the same hymn sheet worries me. And to my mind there are greater threats to pro-Independence online sites than ‘trolls’, such as MI5 agents that infiltrate, project an upstanding persona, con everyone and try to manipulate.
”Can someone please explain to me exactly how the arguments for staying in the EU are different from those for staying in the UK?”
Well for a start off some people, like myself, who want Independence also want to ditch the EU (Westminster and even more so the House of Lords). Some only want rid of the latter.
I’ll vote to stay in the EU however (a tactical vote) in the hope it will lead to Independence then we’ll see about the EU. More than anything I would like to see us renegotiate a different deal with the EU akin to Switzerland, Iceland, Liechtenstein or Norway.
”And how is it unfair for scotland to be removed from the EU by the UK but fair for scotland to force the rest of the UK to stay in the EU?”
I don’t see that happen Yoda. If the majority of English people vote to leave the EU then I’m sure that will come to pass. Our vote (Scottish) wont make a whit of a difference.
If the Scots vote to stay in the EU then I reckon that may lead to us acquiring our Independence: An Independent Scotland with EU membership. England (and rUK) independent of Scotland and the EU.
Others may have a different point of view but I hope that helps.
Is Malcolm Bruce a compelling argument for not letting politicians near a microphone once they reach a certain age.
Dear Yoda.
Rather than a cyclical of crap. I cordially, yes cordially invite you to an evening of enlightened discussion to challenge each others political views.
I’ll be the Martini Man – any time , any place , anywhere.
First pints on you.
Al
Today and Yoda have very similar writing styles and only one letter different in their names. I think their may be a third one about to show itself. What do you think his or her name might be? Toady? Toya?
I waiting for the first journalist to have the sense/balls to interview David Mundell and ask him.
1. Had you read the memo before it was released to the Telegraph?
2. Were you involved in the decision to release the memo to the Telegraph?
3. Were you a party to the release of the memo to the Telegraph?
4. Did you make any phone calls to the Telegraph about the memo?
@Alastair
Aye that’s correct. I posted earlier about that citing the last lib/dem to go. Chris Huhne. He’s on the list.
file:///C:/Users/David%20Cunningham/Downloads/SN04731.pdf
@ Alastair at 2.18
Although there is an arcane process for relinquishing a seat in Parliament, it isn’t that tricky in practice.
Gerry Adams did it, despite not having taken his seat in the first place. So did Douglas Carswell and Mark Reckless when they defected to UKIP. There are other examples, too.
So if Carmichael accepts that he should “resign”, he will have no real difficulty doing so. It’s getting him to agree to go that’s the problem!
Donation done!! Over 8.5k now
@ Skip_NC says ”Does anyone know if it is legal for someone outside of the UK, and not on the UK electoral roll, to contribute to the financial costs of this action?”
Skip I’m sure your money will be very welcome (and not illegal) if you plan to donate.
And thanks for taking an interest in what is happening here.
Rev, should this fundraiser be running for 30 days? Would have thought it better to have the deadline within 14 days.
Yoda
Awa and bile yer heid min!
@ Almannysbunnet at 2.30
I noticed that too! (In fact, I had mentally attributed a post to the wrong half of the duo, and it was only when someone replied that I discovered my mistake, so the style is indeed very similar.)
I like your suggestions for additional variations.
Yoda-your loaded questions appear to be identical to the poster Today on the previous thread. Why 2 identities?
Thanks to Malcolm Bruce, when David Cameron tells us he loves Scotland, we now know there’s a 98% chance he is lying.
Long time reader and supporter of Wings.
First time poster, just want to introduce myself by thanking Rev Stu for bringing this crowdfunder to our attention.
It cannot be stressed enough how important it is to make sure the corrupt UK media is exposed for what it is and that we also strive to clear all forms of excrement from our politics.
Does one think the people of England would tolerate this sort of behaviour from one of their politicians but yet we are expected to forgive and forget and then support these crooks.
The UK media, led by the BBC, must be held responsible.
Andrew Morton says:
26 May, 2015 at 2:31 pm
I waiting for the first journalist to have the sense/balls to interview David Mundell and ask him.
1. Had you read the memo before it was released to the Telegraph?
2. Were you involved in the decision to release the memo to the Telegraph?
3. Were you a party to the release of the memo to the Telegraph?
4. Did you make any phone calls to the Telegraph about the memo?
::::::::::::::::::::::
Perhaps a member of his constituency could write and/or email him.
It may be quicker than waiting for hell to freeze over.
Rapidly on its way to £10,000.
No place to hide these days from an engaged public.
Yoda and Today maybe you should be asking if it’s right if the English voters pull Scotland out against its will? No?
571 people have donated £9770 so far. You wonderful people
It would be no bad thing, if every MP or MSP, understood, clearly, that if they deceive or betray their constituents, then, via the internet and crowdfunding, they could quickly lose their job.
Nor would it break my heart, if they all adopted the attitude that they work for us. We hire; we can fire.
Carmichael for Dummies.
I was unable to tell the truth about my fibs whilst the inquiry was seeking to find the truth about my fibs. It would have been misleading and dishonestto have told the truth at that stage. Now that the truth about my fibs has been revealed I wish to admit that my fibs were not fibs but an error of judgment. Honest
@Joemcg
I think it is a dialogue of the deaf, inherently.
Unionists do not recognise that there are different constituencies. That being so they do not see your question as comparable. At least that is what I think always happens in this repetitive debate. It is pointless to engage.
To whom it may concern.
If I were to go down the local outdoor bowling club and ask if a group of my nieces and nephews could play pitch and putt on the green, I’d bet at least one of the members would have a heart attack while the rest would probably settle for apoplexy.
Freedom of speech should work a bit like that.
Carmichael lied to smear Nicola, gain political advantage, and later to save his very well paid job. There are some however who advocate that under freedom of speech, he, or anyone, should be able to lie without any consequence whatever.
A troll is like a virus, in a body or even in a computer. The goal of a troll is ultimately to destroy a blog, and how the Unionists would love Stu and Wings to fall from the political firmament.
The belief that a troll can just appear on a blog and play ‘pitch and putt’ or any other ‘game’ he chooses, without consequences, and to believe that allowing such a thing is upholding freedom of speech, is irrational at best and at worst, naieve in the extreme.
Does a virus have the right to kill someone, or destroy a computer? The law upholds the right to self-defence and the right, within reason, to protect property.
But, this is not my blog; I don’t make the rules. But even here, I don’t think you can just say anything you like.
Yep I’m no I’m cynical (who can blame me after the BT lies) but this guy helped them get a no vote. Will the British establish punish him? I’m doubtful.
Good article by Derek Bateman.
link to derekbateman.co.uk
Yoda and Today
or today Yoda tomorrow Today
@Manandboy
Freedom of speech is never absolute: but that does not make it unimportant. It seems to me that you are correct in suggesting that the limit of free speech is reached when there is harm to another person or to the institution which indulges it.
Can we honestly say that there are trolls on here which are doing real damage? I don’t see it.
I think that some are trolls, and I do not tend to read their posts, once I have decided that they are not here to engage in honest discussion. Certainly try not to respond to them. But it is unlikely that everyone will agree about who is a troll, and it is obvious that my own strategy of ignoring them does not appeal to all as a way of dealing with the phenomenon.
It does not matter unless there is damage, and I just do not think they are making a dent in Wings.
@crazycat
Not wanting to get into a ping pong.
Gerry Adams was always an MP, claimed the funds due. Carswell submitted himself to a bye elections as I suggested and Reckless to the electorate at the GE.
Kisses Al
Just a question. If this action goes ahead in court, might not there be a ramification of this with the forthcoming WM investigation? Just trying to cover all the angles here. Don’t want Carmichael slipping through on some legalese technicality.
@Macnakamura
“Perhaps a member of his constituency could write and/or email him.”
Morag? Morag? Are you there?
Michael White article Guardian
I said Ghost Writer was Gordon Brown
mod removed post in less than a minute
so proud
@bookie from hell
Michael White does not need a ghost writer. That is just what he is like. Stopped reading the Guardian much precisely because of his lies and hubris and sheer ignorance on Scottish issues.
Steve @ 1:38
Having been asked about this before myself, my answer was like yours and I said that, in essence, the question we were really being asked last September is whether we wanted to remove one level of governance (Westminster) and beef up another (Holyrood).
@ Andrew Morton says: I’m waiting for the first journalist to have the sense/balls to interview David Mundell and ask him.
1. Had you read the memo before it was released to the Telegraph?
2. Were you involved in the decision to release the memo to the Telegraph?
3. Were you a party to the release of the memo to the Telegraph?
4. Did you make any phone calls to the Telegraph about the memo?
::::::::::::::::::::::
@ Macnakamura says ”Perhaps a member of his constituency could write and/or email him. It may be quicker than waiting for hell to freeze over.”
…………………
5. Mr Mundell were you interviewed by Jeremy Heywood recently (or colleague / s) about the serious allegation made against Nicola Sturgeon, The First Minister of Scotland?
6. Mr Mundell was it YOU who actually came up with the idea to produce and leak such a memo or was it Mr Camerons?
7. If it was you was Mr Cameron aware at any time before the leaking of the memo that this was what you (and / or others) were planning to do?
8. What was Alistair Carmichael promised for agreeing to be the scapegoat? A seat in the House of Lords and a wee backhander??
Off with his head!!
Thanks folks for helping to get Carmichael out. You can also contribute here: link to facebook.com
Auld Rock
Greenland left the EU while remaining part of the Kingdom of Denmark. England could do likewise, no?
@ Andrew Haddow
Didn’t know that. Is there something I can read which gives the background and detail?
So nobody has asked Fluffy what he knew but a BBC interviewer was happy to ask Ms Sturgeon if she had ever leaked documents.
O/T
For the sake of transparency, I use the name wamac on some posts like the Herald, or Scotsman, and Andrew McLean on here, no real reason.
Mr Carmicheal,
Do you allow your children to lie and call people names? If not, why not?
If your kids try to cover up their misdemeanor by telling further lies, do you think that is okay?
Who punishes your kids if they lie, Mr Carmichael? Do you allow your kids to decide what is proportionate for their wrongdoing or do you decide?
Take your time. I’m sure you’ll see where this is going. Now do the right thing for yourself, your family and, most of all, for the voters of Orkney & Shetland. Just go.
Contribution made. With any luck the fallout will deal with my MP, Mundell.
@Fiona
As good a starting place as any. link to en.wikipedia.org
Alistair Carmichael
I don’t doubt for a moment that when you entered politics you were a very good, well intentioned, young intern.
Visions to change Scotland for betterment and good. I don’t doubt it. Regardless of our polar politics.
But.
Unfortunately you succumbed to the Establishment and prostituted yourself to them.
You are a family man and I have awareness of how that must play with your position.
Your family will see, understand and formulate their own opinions of Aliestair. It is so, so sad.
I will give you all benefit of the doubt, .All best wishes to repent and reform.
But until you resign and accept what you did you alienate yourself form all redemption.
Please make me and yourself a better person.
I’ll and so many others will willingly give you forgiving if you seek redemption and resign.
Al
@ Fiona 3.10 As many times Wingers appeal ,not to engadge with Troll & their many (aliases).Known longtime Wingers still persist on engadging & THAT PUTS PEOPLE LIKE ME FROM COMMENTING ON THREADS.DONT LET THESE PEOPLE GET ESTABLISHED ON WINGS. YOUR CHOICE WINGERS.
Ouchee
link to archive.is
Not content with happily lying about a liar like Carmicheal, our red tory imperial masters are quite displeased with us. Its an odd mentality in Britnat land, summed up by strange UKOK stuff like
“Now I see this campaign in a more sinister light. Carmichael was one of only three non-SNP candidates to win a Scottish seat on 7 May:”
and
“So it seems a little authoritarian, to put it mildly, to seek a byelection in order to make a block of 56 MPs into 57, 96% of Scotland’s MPs on the basis of 50% of Scotland’s vote.”
Y’see silly Scottish types, bettertogether The Guardian says First Past the Post was all fine and dandy, until May 8 2015 and a SLabour dominated Scotland for over 7 decades was fine and not authoritarian etc.
While Carmichael draws most of the attention in Memogate, those who wonder about who else was involved may be writing the headlines of the future.
On the steps of Bute House, or round the table inside, we have all seen pictures of Nicola and David Cameron smiling and shaking hands. But they are not friends; and they are most definitely not on the same side. What David Cameron says in public about Nicola will be very very different to what he says in private conversations with his advisors and close political allies.
It is hard to imagine that Cameron had no knowledge or involvement in Memogate.
Carmichael may very well be a wedge under the door to prevent it from opening any further, and revealing who else is in the room; who else was in on the dirty tricks. If so, then he won’t be resigning and he won’t be found guilty of anything requiring him to resign or be fired. The Establishment has the power to ensure Carmichael’s safety – even in the highest court in the land. There is not a single judge in the UK who is truly independent of the Establishment in matters of this kind, where the protection of those at the top is at stake.
On the other hand, Nicola is the enemy; a very real threat and danger to the Union and the Establishment. Not even Vladimir Putin will be regarded a greater threat than Nicola. Cameron knows full well that Nicola has grown very quickly to be a politician of significant prominence and popularity, not to mention influence. He will not want to see her gain additional stature. Quite the opposite.
It is not difficult to work out that a serious smearing of Nicola, as planned by Memogate, would have suited Cameron perfectly. How convenient that Cameron had a Scottish Minister in his Cabinet, and one of the ‘calibre’ of Carmichael, whose dept. came up with the ‘goods’ on Nicola.
And then there’s David Mundell. He gives the impression, when speaking on Scottish matters, that there is absolutely no one he would not shove ‘aff the bus’, as long as they were Scots. An SNP hater and Union lover, Mundell strikes me as the kind of person who is always on the look out for a bit of gossip; the kind of person who is always watching while singing to himself that old Police song – ‘every move you make, I’ll be watching you.’
As others have pointed out, even though Scottish Secretary, messing about with a First Minister and a French Ambassador, is above his pay grade. It is inconceivable that the whole thing was conceived and then enacted from within the Scottish Office without first getting the green light from ‘up above’. That points to the Cabinet Office at No 10 and nowhere else.
Here’s hoping the crowdfunder does the business, but, if this leads to Cameron, the wedge will stay in the door.
Funding bid to unseat Carmichael
Posted at 15:26
link to bbc.co.uk
WoS>Internet>WoS
O/T
Influential neo-Blairite Chuka Umunna has announced he is backing neo-Blairite Liz Kendall for the Labour leadership.
Kendall is strongly in favour of Trident renewal. Anti- Trident Ian Murray will be delighted at the prospect of her as his leader.
Back to the Lib Dems. If Malcolm Bruce thinks it’s ok for politicians to lie what does he actually think politics is?
A game?
Times are changing, its great how we can come together and those with some spare cash can chip in and together we can all take on the establishment down in Westminster. Happy days.
That’s another 50 quid heading to the Northern Isles.
The People Versus Carmichael
Whatever the result, this is something the MSM cannot ignore. The people take on the UK establishment. What an opportunity! Folks, this could echo around the world. I kid you not. It will certainly be talked about in the streets of Paris. How proud would you feel to be Scottish, involved in this epic battle?
You do realise, folks, that the establishment are getting really pissed off with us? It’s only a matter of time before we are all rounded up and sent off to a hastily cnstructed Correction Camp in St. Kilda.
See y’all in St. Kilda – they will soon run out of space.
I hope Carmichael is as dishonourable as I think he is.
With a bit of luck he’ll bring down Mundell with him. Implicating Clegg and Cameron would be a bonus.
This whole mess has the potential to be explosive and I certainly think Mundell should be targeted more. It’s ludicrous to believe he wasn’t involved. The Heywood investigation whitewashes over anyone (Tory) elses involvement.
The get Carmichael fund is now at £11,409.
At this point it’s pretty hard to tell who the bigger Liar is.
Carmichael or Clegg?
We should just do the scottish voters a favour and refer to the disgraced liar and smearer Carmichael from now on as either..
‘Clegg’ Carmichael
Or
Carmichael ‘Clegg’
But again, which one to choose?? :/
We’ve also got to decide whether “the Liar Dems” or “the Fib Dems” is the more apt?
Ah, well. We’ve got till Holyrood to decide since we all know for a fact after the election that the public certainly hold them in utter contempt and thinks they cannot be trusted.
And that was before the smearing liar ‘Clegg’ Carmichael got caught red-handed.
FergusMac says:
26 May, 2015 at 3:40 pm
Contribution made. With any luck the fallout will deal with my MP, Mundell.
Mundell will be one of the first witnesses called. Let’s see how he performs under oath.
Its a great thing you are all doing with the crowdfund but its rather sad that this matter is’nt being dealt with by WM.We are on our own and cannot expect justice unless we take matters into our own hands.I salute every last one of you.
Fiona says:
“Michael White …. That is just what he is like. Stopped reading the Guardian much precisely because of his lies and hubris and sheer ignorance on Scottish issues.”
Indeed.
I could write long rambling articles about cereal production in Poland, or the property market in Austria. But, I won’t because I know bu99er all about those countries. I would consider it somewhat ridiculous to express spurious opinions supported by made up facts.
Yet, Scotland is being subjected to articles and opinions from people who haven’t a clue what is going in the real Scotland! Have they really no grasp of the narrow scope of their own knowledge base? In other words, they should stick to what they actually understand!
Least we can always rely on BBCs Eleanor for the NHS Scotland truth…todays headline:
Glasgow hospital like ‘war zone’
Someone has just walked into a police station in Wishaw,and made a formal complaint about Alistair Carmichaels,skullduggery.
Donated. If you need any extra motivation to reach into your pocket, you need look no further than Michael White’s tosh in The Guardian.
link to archive.is
“It is not difficult to work out that a serious smearing of Nicola, as planned by Memogate, would have suited Cameron perfectly.”
Its different now though, after they won May 8.
The Cons used English bigotry to win so well and much of it was concocted by Carmichael’s historic slander and fraud on Sturgeon. The lying slobs fraud all tied in with their “Salmond is a Scotch thief picking your pockets and stealing your hard earned, so what ever you want England, you can see you cant trust the sweaties” poster campaign for starters.
But what worked in England for the tory boys, crashed and burned in Scotland and here we are, being called sinister authoritarians by same teamGB establishment that won a battle but know full well the war is lost.
The Queens speech tomorrow,has been written by the Conservative party,according to radio news.
How soon before a Judge declares any open trial of KolaChoobs is not in the public interest?
4.25pm Fundraiser at £12,000 folks
link to indiegogo.com
Thank you Fiona, and you said “It does not matter unless there is damage, and I just do not think they are making a dent in Wings.”
I’m sure we’re walking the same line, Fiona; we’re possibly just not the same height and therefore have a different eyeline. I speak metaphorically of course to make an obvious point. You are right, the strength of Wings remains intact as an important influence in Scottish political circles – and getting wider all the time, so it comes down to dings, and if my car is typical, it only takes a few dings to take the look off it. Too many and it’s a trade in or a visit to the body shop.
However, with a blog, it is very hard to know how many, if any, who visit Wings then turn away due to those interminable exchanges between trollers and regulars who don’t ignore – which fortunately doesn’t happen that often here, while still occurring.
Perhaps it is down to individual tastes according to how much patience one has, and right there is my weakness – I have little patience with Yoda and Today. I’ll go further – I have zero patience with him/her/them. I mean, to come on and tell Wingers that supporting the crowdfunder against Carmichael is a waste of money. Life’s too short.
So anyway, I said to the greenkeeper down at the bowling club, ‘ just one little game , a few holes’ – he picked up his stick, but we were gone.
I trust you’re enjoying a near Unionist MP free Scotland.
A great thing is we can raise funds to test our democracy.
The sad thing is that we have too.
Just added to fund, now standing at over 12k. I hope they reach their upper target its going to get costly unless there’s a good lawyer out there willing to donate their skills rather than money
@Heedtracker, that piece by Michael White is an astounding piece of self delusional shite.
Talk about justifying criminality.
I really do feel like I’m wandering around in some kind of parallel universe, where mendacity and corruption is revered.
Michael white’s piece actually made me smile.
Yes it is totally off the wall but with such a complete failure to understand Scottish politics it hardly undermines our argument that we need to do things ourselves.
Wish people would stop obsessing with getting Mundell. I very much doubt he had anything to do with this. Push hard enough and when it’s shown he didn’t the focus will be put on this as a witch hunt against any unionist party rather than a righteous kill. A scheme which relied on the French maintaining a diplomatic silence does not tally with Osborne’s noising them up about Agincourt.
As it stands Charmicheal’s defense is one of whistle blowing and allowing into the public domain a confidential document due to his perception of it being in the public interest due to what was reported to him. That he tried to distance himself from actual knowledge of it’s contents says a lot. If it had been true then perhaps that legal defense, which is what it amounts to, might hold. As it stands though he chose to abrogate his duty or even allow a breach of the Official Secrets act which is a criminal offence.
Carmichael is guiltyby his own confession. It’s beyond belief that Mundell never asked at any time. Any reasonable man would have worked out that there wisnae many possible culprits and he was on the list. So even if he new nuthin at the start he must known when it blew up. So hes guilty of the cover up. £5 well spent.
Valerie says:
“I really do feel like I’m wandering around in some kind of parallel universe, where mendacity and corruption is revered.”
Thing is, many of our fellow Scots who rely on the BBC and MSM for their world view are stuck in that parallel universe and don’t realise it.
What little reporting of Memogate there is, is frankly other worldly!
If all we achieve is kicking up a fuss, before we are kicked back down again, then some more folks will have experienced a vision of reality beyond what they are fed. Once someone sees that there is a wider reality, they can never in-see it. Revelation is for life.
No at £12,639. Bawbees contributed from this auld yin. Pleased to help the good folk of Orkney & Shetland pursue this. It should be challenged.
I’m no surprised that the establishment is no best pleased wae us.How very dare we, the plebs, challenge the great and the good. Well what Carmichael did was despicable. Not only did he try and smear our First Minister, but also the French Ambassador and Counsel General. Could have cause a serious diplomatic incident.
Ah but it’s A Okay to tell lies, cause they all do it. Shite, utter shite. My wee mammy many years ago never accepted that as an excuse for anything. You knew right from wrong and woe betide you if you got it wrong.
Go for it Orkney & Shetland, you deserve better than to be treated like this. About time these charlatans were stood up to.
Getting noticed. Daily Mail. Interestingly, other MPs trying to distance themselves from the idea that they all lie.
link to archive.is
Luigi says:
26 May, 2015 at 3:54 pm
“Whatever the result, this is something the MSM cannot ignore. The people take on the UK establishment. What an opportunity! Folks, this could echo around the world. I kid you not. It will certainly be talked about in the streets of Paris. How proud would you feel to be Scottish, involved in this epic battle?”
Well said Luigi, I was in Paris last week for work and a Belgian colleague brought up the election results and said that they now get regular updates on the news about Scottish politics. (I wish we got the same coverage from the BBC). The world is watching and getting rid of Carmichael puts us back on centre stage.
P.S. fifty quid, you have shamed me into upping my earlier donation.
Wow. At £13k now. Well done Stu on getting this mesage across, I think the locals will be pleased…
Most satisfying £20 I’ve spent in ages.
This lying toe rag has to know his position is untenable.
Is he hanging on in case the case gets booted out on a technicality ????
Only a Idiot Solicitor defends himself in Law, so Carmichael will have Legal Costs,& should the Persuer win he will incur more costs,whats not to like the Foodbanks get a bonus & Westminster Shamed again.
Who Poisoned the Well ?
AC admission of ‘error of judgement’
His colleagues defence of him
WR ‘He is a Good Guy Really’
MB ‘It’s Common practice’
While both these statements may be true,it does not excuse the lies,sorry but IMO he has to do the right thing.
The question remains did he act alone ?….was there more than one Poisoner ?
The curtains are opening a wee bit wider,what/who will we see ? Gripping stuff
If there are others involved in this higher up the chain than Carmichael presently is then there will be a lot of panic of this Crowd-funding development–that the people are taking direct action and that they have the financial means to do so.
None of the ‘hidden ones’ (i.e. the ones Carmichael is shielding) will want this to go legal where they can be called and made to swear an oath. Behind the scenes deals will be going on right now to pave the way for a Carmichael resignation and the way paved for an ermine cloak.
They just can’t afford this to go to a legal challenge which could, conceivably, bring the whole rotten edifice tumbling down.
Expect a Carmichael resignation before the court case.
Michael White’s article is pretty awfull, but the comments make for good reading.
I have posted the Orkney/Shetland appeal to YES groups I was part of – can you do the same?
@ Andrew Haddow
Thanks. It is interesting but I see that Greenland had home rule, and we don’t, yet. Still it is good to know that if that is all we do get we can still have that level of autonomy.
@Today says: 26 May, 2015 at 1:09 pm:
“Tell me one time in history when nationalism has been a force for progress and good,”
As I’ve a few minutes to spare, Today, I’ll answer the first of your questions just to demonstrate what an absolute idiot you are. How about, “The American War of Independence”. “The Anglo Saxon Invasion”, or Norway, (a still ‘young’ country. Norway was in union with Denmark, then with Sweden for several centuries but Norway became an independent country again in 1905.
There are many more but in all cases their nationalism was only confined to running their own affairs. Unlike, for example, The German Third Reich which called themselves Nationalists but were actually expansionist or Imperial – as of course was that of the British Empire which attempted to dominate the World and the Westminster Establishment still attempting with their, “Nationalism”, to dominate the bipartite United Kingdom..
As your second question is rather idiotic I cannot answer as you do not indicate in what manner you perceive there to be no differences. Do you mean genetically, politically or culturally?
Just caught up on all the posts and the Rev’s articles and this post deserves a response:
Brotyboy says:
24 May, 2015 at 10:39 am
@Stoker
“Your posts have consistently plumbed the depths of inarticulacy. If you can’t understand why the Rev has asked us not to use certain terms and to behave as if we were posting to a ‘No’ voter, then you should be asking yourself what you’re doing on this site. Please be assured that there is no limit to how much I despise you for the harm you bring to our cause.”
And your post is extremely obnoxiously condescending.
I understand fine well why the Rev doesn’t like us using certain words but i don’t have to fully agree with those reasons.
I don’t blindly follow folk and just for clarity, let me make it clear to you – I have never referred to any ‘No’ voter as a tr@itor, certain politicians yes but ordinary voters NEVER, not even those of the OO variety.
I challenge you to prove otherwise.
My objections are to the censoring of what i would class as the perfectly legitimate use of that word.
At the end of the day it’s the Rev’s site and he’ll run it as he sees fit and that’s what we all sign up to but i don’t need condescending twats such as you trying to dictate to me how i should think or post.
And as for you despising me for the harm i bring to our cause?
NEWSFLASH: I couldn’t give a rats erse for what you think of me, i’ve never been one for popularity contests, so your condescending tripe is just that, condescending tripe.
As for your bullshit claim of “the harm” i “bring to our cause” – prove it.
Now, i do sincerely hope that was articulate enough for you.
Isnt it something when the libdums have almost wipeout bar one sitting mp in Scotland just like the red and blue tories yet the msm have their backs as can be seen from Malcolm Bruce getting carte blanche to spew more nonsense just like Rennies ‘second chance for Carmichael’ drivel. I just wish Bruce had gave that insight about most of the parliament telling lies, before the GE. They arent even the third force in Scottish politics yet the msm give them the same tight protection they give the other unionist political parties. They really have turned into the 3 ugly sisters in Scotland and with lies and hypocrisy dribbling out of their sorry mouths so readily it really is quite an ugly spectacle.
Kudos to the organisers of this crowdfund for the court of session the people versus Carmichael. If Carmichael is intent on desperately clinging on for his own selfish interest then so be it, this crowdfund shows there are many ways to skin a cat. His constituents deserve a second chance knowing what we all know. The liberal democrats are neither liberal nor democrats. Theirs is a political death to behold and Scotland will be well rid.
@Heedtracker and others
RE: Mr Mundell.
I am uncomfortable with the way this is being argued.
Those who continue to pretend that Ms Sturgeon did say she would prefer Mr Cameron in government do so on the basis of an argument on all fours with what you are saying.
They say that it would self evidently suit the SNP to have a tory government, and take that as evidence that what was reported was true. That is a weak argument.
So to say that it would have suited Cameron and Mundell to leak the memo, and therefore suggest that is evidence they did is directly comparable in its form.
In both cases there are smuggled assumptions which cannot be demonstrated. I do not believe it suits the SNP to have a tory government, and even if it did you would still have to show that Ms Sturgeon knew that (politicians are not infallible in assessing where their interest lies, any more than the rest of us); and acted on that knowledge in a way which was detrimental to her presumed aims. So she is simultaneously machiavellian and profoundly naive.
Neither to I think it is self evident that it suits the tories to discredit the SNP, since a strong SNP obviously damaged labour most. Again you have to assume that they knew where their best interest lay, and not with hindsight; and that they acted on it.
I am not saying that could not have happened: but I am saying that both arguments are fallacious in the same way.
We need to do better than that.
@all (including heed tracker)
… Just listened to BBC Five live in south of England at 5.25pm. A piece on Carmichael lying as an MP. Incredulous BBC reporter questions Malcolm Bruce on his defence of Carmichael.
No cover up down here heedtracker. You need to go and find another conspiracy theory to latch on to. May I suggest aircraft contrails are really UKOK secretly drugging the populace to vote Tory. Lots of mileage in that one!
Slightly O/T
Ive seen an article in the Scotsman about the Cuthbert’s practicly stating that the devolved powers from the Smith Commission are not fit for purpose and instead of being the most devolved country in the world, Scotland will end up a basket case like Greece!
This is why the unionists are pushing the Smith Commission and digging their heels in about letting Scotland have full control over its revenues.
Its disturbing to listen to the likes of Mundell state that Scotland should not get anything more than the Smith Commission’s
recommendations
The premis is this. Once Scotland gets the Smith Commission added powers and it doesnt work, then the unionists will blame the SNP, with the ‘I told you so’ rant
This must not be allowed to happen and the SNP and everyone else must push for 100% full fiscal powers and control over ALL revenues including that of Scotland’s resources in line with what the Canadian provinces enjoy
Congratulations to whoever launched the indiegogo crowdfunder. It’s now at £14,451 and going up every minute.
Yes, that Guardian article was truly awful, even prompted me to post a line for the first time for a long time. What a totally misnamed rag, unless it means Lying Politician Guardian.
The individuals taking this crowd funding appeal forward are totally gobsmacked at the response so far and thank you all for donating. As previous posters have explained, to simply lodge the action takes the first chunk of around £6K and the advice the petitioners have had from those helping them through the legal minefield is that they need to earmark a figure of around £60k as realistic. These are terrifying figures for the folk who are taking this on. If in the event more money is raised that is needed all excess will go to foodbank charities. Please keep donating what you can.
when Charmicheal is in court, he can be questioned on what Mundell knew (:
link to facebook.com
Scotland does democracy, by the people and for the people
What a thing Eh
The Irish and the Welsh are joining in too over Camerons EU position
I never in my life thought I’d see what’s happening in our country today
When they say what’s the SNP ever done for you
They took away the fear and apathy and reminded us who we are
I’ll stop now I’m wellin up..
Slightly odd all the calls for Carmichael to resign for lying, on the website that publishes Eric Joyce, the drunk driving, multi assault convicted former MP.
Personally I think they should both have been subject to recall, is this not something the SNP MPs and MSPs be working on in the relevant parliaments, rather then this parochial brouhaha we have going on?
I see lidems advocating assisted suicide. So why are they continuing to keep A.C. on life support
I would not be surprised if all these lying politicians Malcolm Bruce was referring to are now sitting there thinking, you know what, I think it might be a good idea if I start telling the truth.
@Gfaetheblock
What do you suggest they should be doing? Recall legislation has passed but is not yet in force.
Gfaetheblock – ‘Whataboutery’ Alert!
Eric Joyce is 5-year-old news. The topic now is a current MPs lies and smears, and who else was involved.
well, the story is second on reporting scotland. moves are afoot…
Correct me if I’m wrong here (I hope I am) I have a little experience with kickstarter campaigns. In order to get access to the funds (any funds) doesn’t a crowdfunder have to successfully run it’s course to completion first? i.e. all £60,000? Given that time is of the essence here, is it going to be enough time? Again, I hope I’m wrong!
Worried?
“Slightly odd all the calls for Carmichael to resign for lying, on the website that publishes Eric Joyce, the drunk driving, multi assault convicted former MP.
Personally I think they should both have been subject to recall, is this not something the SNP MPs and MSPs be working on in the relevant parliaments, rather then this parochial brouhaha we have going on?”
Well covered on STV (no idea about BBC), including a mention of the crowdfunding campaign. Herald too is continuint to cover he story with Bruce’s outrageous comments, so if “they” thought it would work announcing it on the Friday before the bank holiday, well, tough, it hasn’t.
Carmichael, go now, you liar.
David – Joyce has been assaulting people over the last five years admittedly, but his latest conviction was last month, he awaits sentencing. He was published on this website in the last week or so, so pretty current.
Fiona – but is it fit for purpose. If Carmichael’s behaviour is that bad, why isn’t it covered by the new bill? Should the MPs not be using parliamentary time to change the law?
Oh whit hiv we Scots done , whit hiv we done. Bad news Fridays will need looking at again,is this Tuesday and its getting some tracktion on STV & the crowdfunder gets mentioned.
@ Fiona Mac Innes Yous Islanders aw sit back n buckle up,your getting a free ride oan the big one , nae need tae go tae Blackpool, strap yourselves intae your big chairs , its ahellava ride.
An get the Tar Torches ready fur Carmichaels Longboat Funeral.
When I saw the fundraiser this morning I’ll admit to being a bit wary. I had heard the amount needed was £6000 and then to see £60,000 made me stare open eyed.
However, it is likely that the amount requested is more realistic to take it through a full trial so I have sent a wee bung the way of the Orcadians willing to take this action.
I’ll be honest and say that I don’t ever expect this to get to court. Carmichael will resign, there is no doubt, but I know that even if the money is not used for it’s intended purpose it will be going to Scottish foodbanks.
I’m happy with that, Carmichael surely isn’t!
Let’s hit the target and see for real, that people power in action can produce results unheard of.
The times are a changing, we WILL hold you to account.
A wee ‘publicise WOS’ suggestion…
If you intend going to the crowdfunding site to contribute,
link to indiegogo.com
(£15,078 at the moment), after you’ve contributed, go to the comments and post a comment, including the link to this page.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Sound like a plan?
Will soon be over 1000 funders, speaks volumes.
@Gfaetheblock.
No idea if it is “fit for purpose” (horrible off the peg phrase, btw). It has not come into force. And that is not in MP’s control: the relevant Minister needs to do it. He hasn’t. Why not write to him?
@“Freedom of speech is never absolute: but that does not make it unimportant. It seems to me that you are correct in suggesting that the limit of free speech is reached when there is harm to another person or to the institution which indulges it.”
An old labourer who worked with me in the Dockyard had a bit of bother over Freedom of Speech. Old Sam liked a pint or 12 and one Saturday evening Sam staggered out of a local pub and literally ran into a local Councillor that Sam didn’t like. Sam proceeded to tell the Councillor exactly what he thought of him. By chance a couple of the local plod interfered to prevent possible trouble.
Sam was, “lifted”, and spent a while in the local nick’s cells but had to appear in the local court on the Monday Morning. When confronted with the evidence he had referred to the local Councillor as, “A dirty rotten lying Bastirt”, Sam admitted his guilt and was told by the Sheriff, “Now Sam, while we believe in Freedom of Speech in this country, you cannot just say anything you like, even if it is what you think”.
Sam then asked the Sheriff if he was allowed to think what he liked and was assured that he could indeed think whatever he liked. To which Sam retorted, “Weel! Mr Sheriff, yer Honour, Sir, Ah still thing he’s a dirty rotten bastirt”.
As they say in the best newspaper court reports, “There was laughter in court”. I kid you not. Sam was a real old character.
@Brian Doonthetoon
Done.
re Malcolm Bruce
Why was he not asked what his last political lie was?
re Liarcarmichael
Why not hang him with his own stance – ie if you want a second chance, stop lying and tell us about Mundell’s involvement.
tartanpigsy says:
“Worried?”
Yes they are. I sense as much unionist mischief making among the comments as at anytime in the run up to the ref.
The right chains seem to be being tugged!
The Bruce-Rennie-Guardian defence:
He took a gun to assassinate a hated opponent, it misfired, no one got hurt. What’s the problem?
The hole which they are digging is getting both deeper and wider.
When this is over more than just Carmichael will have fallen in.
That Guardian article completely spoiled my digestion.
link to grousebeater.wordpress.com
Eric Joyce is a somewhat different case to Carmichael.
Eric is wrestling with personal demons. Yes, the instability of personality when drunk is an issue and nutting Tories in the Westminster bar is not going to make for a positive front page. Eric needed to step down to deal with personal problems. That he didn’t was probably a mistake and he has instead put himself under unnecessary additional pressure.
Alistair is involved in clear political wrong doing and indulged in Machiavellian politics trying to twist electoral outcomes. These are not personal problems but part of a bigger political problem…one Bruce has articulated beautifully.
I’m a pensioner so couldn’t give as much as I would have liked but I hope every little helps.
Having first got the vote in 1966, I never thought I would see the day when voters would be able to call the likes of Carmichael to account.
Voters today are so lucky to have the Internet, social media and of course Wings. This is what has made it all possible.
Fiona, critiques of my phraseology aside, it is my view that MPs should be talking to the ministers and departments involved and raising questions in the house to this end. That is their job.
I’m really pleased to see this and had mentioned this before in terms of bringing the Daily Record and other rags to account on their lies – maybe one for the future.
For now, let’s bring this disgusting, self-serving, disgraceful liar of a politician to account!
The sheer brass neck of him and his equally repugnant LD chums to think they can treat us like this is almost unbelievable.
Best few quid I’ve spent in ages!
@Yesindyref2
The BBC in true and traditional form went for “Hospital of Chaos”
The new hospital has had a few teething problems to sort out on opening
(You’d expect that of course) nobody died,
But the BBC had their trained Bradford biter to bring us the horror of it all and point out the failure of the SNP
Oh, and there was something about a leak and some guy called Carmichael
Driving home tonight, I was just going over the Forth road bridge, looking at the iconic rail bridge and the new Forth crossing, thinking about civil Scotland and its achievements, BBC radio Scotland news playing, then I heard this, Sir Malcolm Bruce says in Mr Carmichael’s defence, “all politicians lie to their constituents, this is no reason to to resign.
I was clear the announcer didn’t quite believe what he just read out, first I laughed, then a feeling of sadness that it’s come to this!
First the Labour Party implode, then the liberal party self destruct!
I am left with the feeling that events are moving fast, as I said after the referendum nothing will be quite the same again.
We have 56 MP’s , my message to them is give the bastards hell!
The outcome Carmicheal desired was to destroy Nicola,and inflict damage on the SNP.All of it planned,executed,and condoned by himself and others.
The fact that the custom and practice he relied on with regard to the French notrevealing what actually took place,failed to materialise,and has put him in the sh*t,.Deliberate,contrived,calculating.
We are only returning the favour.
Answer to question posed on this thread at 1.09pm
Nationalism is proving good for Scotland as finally we have a voice from the 56 SNP MPs that can stop the Tories killing off people with disabilities. FACT: http://www.calumslist.org
Scotland and England appear to be becoming totally different societal cultures. Scotland cares for it’s most vulnerable and many in ENGLAND voted for deadly, selfish, class ridden Bullingdon Tories. Of course there are many caring and decent people in ENGLAND, but your question was framed in a way seeking a generalised response.
For a vivid illustration of the difference between Scotland and Tory infested ENGLAND just look at a political map. Compassionate, anti-austerity SNP yellow covering Scotland. England covered in millionaires greedy selfish Tory blue…
http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/12-maps-that-help-show-the-general-election-result-in-a-different-light–e1zgcKoa2eb
Today says:
26 May, 2015 at 1:09 pm
Tell me one time in history when nationalism has been a force for progress and good,
And while your at it please tell me exactly how the scottish and english people are so different.
Lallands Peat Warrior deserves a vote of thanks. A good number of people who read his article have spread the news in other media, even if not able to mention his website by name.
Good grief, I was going to mention in that last post that the crowdfund is up to £16,000 but I would have been doing a Carmichael, i.e. lying. It’s over £17,000 in the space of minutes that time.
If Scotland is not one of the most politically engaged and politically connected countries in the world I would be amazed.
This fund raiser to take Carmichael to court for dirty tricks and deceit must be sending shock waves through Westminster.
So many of them have been getting away with so much for so long, this must really be a wake up call for them.
Times have changed. Scotland most definitely has changed.
gfaetheblock says:
“it is my view that MPs should be talking to the ministers and departments involved and raising questions in the house to this end. That is their job.”
Keep it in the House? Or perhaps, keep it among friends?
No. This is about ordinary people holding their corrupt representatives to account. The constituents of Orkney and Shetland did not know what they were voting for. Now they do.
O & S fundraiser now at £17,200
Let’s keep it ticking over folks!
Ealasaid says:
26 May, 2015 at 7:24 pm
This fund raiser to take Carmichael to court for dirty tricks and deceit must be sending shock waves through Westminster.
Indeed, they are truly terrified because we are playing them at their own game, according to their rules, and we are winning. Rioting in the street they can handle, but through WM and the courts? Squeaky bum time!
Looks like they have wasted a lot of taxpayers money on water cannon. They should have spent more on the services of smart lawyers. They will need them very soon.
Sometimes this wee Country does something that makes you really proud!
I’m a bit surprised (well maybe not given the calibre of their members) that the Labour party haven’t picked up on this as surely the fabricated statements were as damaging to Miliband as to the SNP e.g. Miliband not PM material.
The fundraiser clicks up as you watch it! Amazing.
i expect the stunning crowd funder is plastered all over MSM by now claiming a victory for people power by now, don’t you?
Crowdfund now up to £18,000, a current rate of over £2,000 per hour, kind of like a WOS crowdfund.
This story is not going away, it’s a major story, and, unlike Severin Carrell’s gobsmacking exposure of the false basis of the memo within a few hours, the Guardian is finding itself on the WRONG side of the story. I suggest it should reconsider and back honesty and People democracy in action.
£18,001
Just listen to Hamish roar! Be afraid carmichaeliars everywhere!
Well said, Al-Stuart!
Seconded.
@yoda/Today
You call it nationalism – we call it self determination ie a country’s right (as enshrined in the UN declaration) to determine its own affairs and the right to live in peae with other countries. Iraq war? Say no more…
The crowdfunder is now at £18,341 – it’s going like a fair!
Does it no just make you feel proud? Get in there the wee man!
Apparently Carmichael is to hold constituency surgeries in Stromness and Kirkwall on Friday.
If any of his constituents go along and acquaint him with the problem of their lying MP refusing to resign Alistair will be obliged to write a strongly worded letter to himself.
Keep doing what you are doing, you are laying down the groundwork and the building blocks for the kids following on…they will make Scotland free with your guidance.
We are more than half way through the marathon.
Isn’t it just fantastic that the ordinary person in the street has such power now.
I used to sit at home pulling my hair out at some of the things that were going on (shouting at the television etc, lol). I was raging, frustrated and felt totally helpless and powerless. The feeling of hopelessness was profound, especially during / after the Blair era, knowing that we would never get a Party in power that would give a damn about us. I’m sure many other Scots, right across the Country, felt this way too.
The Internet, Referendum and sites like this have brought so many like-minded people together and it’s just wonderful to behold. I’m so proud of the Scots: Scotland.
This saga should also be sending out a clear message, a shot across their bows, to ALL of the conniving liars, expense claim thieves, paedophiles and so on that we are just not going to put up with it anymore. Advice to them: get real / clean up your act or get out now.
How the fuck can Bruce complain about Scotland’s SNP getting 96% of the seats on 50% of the vote; doesn’t the same apply to Tory Governments that the Majority of Scots didn’t vote for?
If so then what was their argument during the referendum; is it okay to have a Tory government Scotland didn’t vote but not to have an SNP government in holyrood or a majority of SNP MPs in Westminster.
Independence cannot come soon enough.
The propaganda arm of the UK establishment is out in force today. Between Michael White from the guardian and now we have Siobhan McFadyen from the Express threatening a Scottish government minister and SNP adviser because they had the temerity to ask the express to apologise and correct their errors.
You can see it on her Twitter feed here link to twitter.com
I wonder if we’ll see anything in the media regarding Cyber bullying from journalists?
Glad to give to this fund.
Today/Yoda-over 300 independent countries in the world and you talk shite about “nationalism”
being a bad thing! They all seem to be managing fine,why not us? “What’s so different about Scotland and England?” Is that a joke? Look what happened on May 7th.
Good, thought I’d check as a petition has to be started by one of the other candidates, or by constituents. The crowdfunder is from Stromness so that fulfils the obligation.
Just a passing thought, has anyone asked the Shadow Secretary for Scotland for his views on this situation?
The current dilemma involves the previous( was still Acting) Sec For Scotland and quite possibly the current Sec. For Scotland who had been acting in the capacity of Deputy Secretary for Scotland when said memo or reports passed through their Scottish Office Channels.
Aside: did Mundell as Deputy have a SPAD who might have answered or held phones up during confidential calls?
Any hoo, just wondering what the Shadow Secretary for Scotland thought about any of this.
Has he made any statements at all on this matter or otherwise?
@gfaetheblock says: 26 May, 2015 at 7:02 pm
” … it is my view that MPs should be talking to the ministers and departments involved and raising questions in the house to this end. That is their job”.
Indeed I’ll be surprised if the MPs don’t do so but their complaints are with and about a political system that so much allows its elected members to behave in such a disreputable and dishonest manner as this particularly obnoxious specimen has done.
Thus their attempting to change the accumulated and complicated unwritten rules of the House could be compared to the 12 Herculean labours : –
The Nemean lion; Lernaean Hydra; Ceryneian Hind;Erymanthian Boar; Augean Stables; Stymphalian Birds; Cretan Bull; Mares of Diomedes; Belt of Hippolyta; Cattle of Geryon; Hesperides and Cerberus.
And it would probably take them just as long to accomplish as it took Hercules to accomplish his penances.
Meanwhile, back there, in the Northern Isles, it is the electorate who were wronged, who have the least chance of restitution and who will be forced to suffer the insufferable.
More power to their elbows and I’ll soon be sending them a wee puckle siller tae help them on their quest for justice in the Scottish courts for I fear they will get the usual cold shoulder from the English Legal system that is even more an integral part of, “The Establishment”, than even the de facto Parliament of England that is The House of Commons..
Yoda
Seriously,
Can someone please explain to me exactly how the arguments for staying in the EU are different from those for staying in the UK?
And how is it unfair for scotland to be removed from the EU by the of the UK but fair for scotland to force the rest of the UK to stay in the EU?
__________
You are right, it is not fair for the rest of the UK to be forced to stay in the EU by a Scottish vote to stay in the EU.
By that logic it is not fair for Scotland to be removed from the EU by the an English vote to leave the EU.
One of the arguments against Scottish independence was the assumption that Scotland would would have to jump through hoops to join the EU but it is okay to have a referendum on EU membership that would take Scotland out of the EU against the will of it’s citizens if that is the way the English vote.
This is what is left of the British empire in it’s death throes and you should wake up to the fact that Scotland will be an independent country soon as this is the only way forward, nothing else will suffice.
So it is settled – we have the elder statesman of a political party telling us that lies are almost a daily occurrence at WM and bear no reflection on the good that politicians do.The law is internally related to politics and morality so what does the systematic machinery of lies that tries to devalue Scotland’s aspiriations tell us about the communicative situations and discourse ethics of our democratic decision makers ? Possibly that this is the grubby reality of self interested conduct,self serving institutions and political horse trading which permits a lawyer to remain a politician when he admits to lying in an attempt to undermine the FM and no doubt influence his own standing in the GE.
Scotland expects better- we have sent the 56 to WM to deliver the message that we will no longer complacently accommodate the status quo- the constituents of Orkney and Shetland must be allowed another opportunity to express their voting preferences in the light of Mr Carmichael’s actions.
Steinbeck writes ‘the story tellers gathering attention to their tales …spoke in great words because their tales were great and the listeners became great through them’ (Grapes of Wrath). Scotland is telling a great story ,the ending is clear to all who are listening but the tale is not yet finished.
So glad to have freely contributed to the Orkney & Shetland crowd fund in the People Versus Carmichael.
@ Fiona says ”Heedtracker and others RE: Mr Mundell.
I am uncomfortable with the way this is being argued.
Neither do I think it is self evident that it suits the tories to discredit the SNP, since a strong SNP obviously damaged labour most. Again you have to assume that they knew where their best interest lay, and not with hindsight; and that they acted on it.”
Fiona I think that it would have most definitely suited the Tories to discredit the SNP, and in particular Nicola Sturgeon, through having the memo leaked.
I reckon that Camerons focus, in the main, was on the English electorate. He was trying to undermine Miliband, at every turn, especially in relation to the possibilty of a, let’s call it, ‘coalition’ with the SNP in the event of a hung Parliament.
Nicola Sturgeon had been portrayed as the most dangerous woman in the UK – popularity of the SNP ‘Britains biggest constitutional crisis since the abdication’. Alex Salmond was being characterised as the devil incarnate. The Tory message down south was ajockalypse will be upon us if Miliband gets into power (with the support of the SNP).
There was a problem however and that was that no matter what they said Nicola Sturgeon was coming across as being extremely competent, caring, compassionate and more than anything a totally honest politician: a breath of fresh air in fact.
I think this leaked memo would have suited Cameron down to the ground as it would have portrayed Nicola Sturgeon as a VERY DISHONEST, devious, manipulative woman indeed: A woman who was publicly announcing that she wanted him out of office but who privately wanted him to win the election.
People in England, in particular, would surely have been influenced by this and would not have wanted the SNP (demonic, devious, dishonest and manipulative) having an ounce of power in Westminster at all. To their mind the only way that this could happen would have been via the Labour Party.
Yoda
I suppose the like of Ghandi or Mandela aren’t really worth mentioning. As a Britisher, I assume you relish the time when Britain ruled the world? What’s so great about being strapped to the chest of a country that has milked it’s empire dry and seems hell bent on warmongering around the world until it gets its head blown off.
Herald: Won’t archive. Main bit:
——————————————————–
DOWNING Street has failed to clarify whether or not David Cameron was aware of the Scotland Office plan to leak the Sturgeon/Bermann memo to the Press with the aim of smearing the SNP leader during the General Election campaign.
It also declined to comment on the decision by Alistair Carmichael, the former Scottish Secretary, to approve the leak.
The distancing by No 10 from the row came as Nationalist supporters continued to pile pressure on the Liberal Democrat MP for Orkney and Shetland by beginning a campaign to mount a legal challenge to try to end his parliamentary tenure in the courts.
The crowd-funding campaign by Kirkwall-based Nationalist supporter Fiona MacInnes has reportedly raised £10,000 already towards a £60,000 total.
In a separate development, Police Scotland confirmed it had begun inquiries “to establish whether there is any criminality” following a formal complaint lodged by an unknown person against Mr Carmichael.
The memo claimed Nicola Sturgeon told Sylvie Bermann, the French Ambassador to the UK, that she would prefer the Conservative leader to stay as Prime Minister and that Ed Miliband was not up to the job of replacing him.
The assertion in the memo, forcefully denied by the First Minister and then by the French Ambassador, was later accepted as false by Mr Carmichael, who approved the leak to the Press to smear the SNP leader as a hypocrite given, in public, she had said the total opposite.
Thus far, the former Cabinet Minister, having accepted full responsibility for the leak, has sought to tough it out, saying all he wanted to do now was to “get on” representing the people who voted for him.
Today, the SNP at Westminster is expected to refer the matter to Kathryn Hudson, the Standards Commissioner, for investigation.
Under the Recall of MPs Act, introduced just before the election campaign and championed by the Lib Dems, if an MP were suspended for more than 21 sitting days, then only 10 per cent of the local electorate – around 3400 people – would be needed to sign a petition to declare the seat vacant and spark a by-election.
Mr Carmichael was the only one of 11 Lib Dem candidates in Scottish seats previously held by the party to survive the SNP surge on May 7; his 9928 majority was reduced to just 817.
Asked if Mr Cameron had been aware of the Sturgeon/Bermann memo before it was leaked, his spokesman said: “I would not have anything further to add to what the Cabinet Secretary has said to this.”
In a statement following his inquiry, Sir Jeremy Heywood said those who “had access to the memo” were asked to fill out a questionnaire and then interviewed. He also stated that, beyond Mr Carmichael and his special advisor, no one else had “any involvement in the leaking of the memo”.
Asked if the PM would comment on Mr Carmichael’s decision to approve the leak, he replied: “I would not add to what Mr Carmichael himself has said.”
————————————————————–
It continues but you get the idea.
Lovely thread – just allow me to say hello to paulTgeist at 2:45 and give a loving stroke to scotsbob at 7:00.
Just put a few quid in to crowdfund
Re whether trolls/77th bde should be engaged,I think each to their own.
The comments they make on here have a shallow logic designed to sound like the civilized voice of reason to any new unsuspecting/uninformed readers.
If their points are not addressed,some new readers could think they have a point and may remain uncertain of our case.
Sometimes if I have time I will engage with the likes of Rippey,SD,Yoda and co,but only in the hope some new readers will see through their bogus agenda.
But tonight,Im not in the mood and others have done a good job of quashing their unionist/Britnat obfuscation and lies.
£20k broken now…
It gives me a warm feeling being part of what could be a significant event!
Comes as no surprise Cameron is putting distance between him and this liar, and actually it’s what Rennie and that cretin Bruce should have done, if they could conjure up an IQ of more than 2 digits between them.
This, as anticipated, is being painted by anti SNP trolls, here, and on FB, as something being pursued by SNP supporters, and they just don’t get what drives people – a desire for fairness, equality and honesty from politicians.
I’ve just said in a group, I would make my contribution if this were a SNP MP, and I’m a party member. However, I don’t believe they would get themselves in this situation, and if they did, the party management would disown them, as well as pressure them to resign.
Can you imagine the unrestrained fury of literally millions if this were a SNP MP? The SNP also know that they, more than ANY other political party, possibly in history, will be held to account to the highest standards, by everyone and his dog.
£20,688. That’s 20,688 wobbly feelings in AlLIEstair’s bowels.
£20,858GBP
raised by 1,307 people in 23 hours
still clicking up by the minute
@Petra
It is a point of view and it has some merit. That is not my point, though.
Sorry to break ranks but I must admit I find Pete Wishart’s smugness and childishness enormously nauseating. He’s tweeting self-righteously about this stuff. This the guy who went on about how the first Salmond v Darling debate was going to be Darling’s ‘Waterloo’ – thereby gifting the hostile media their headlines the next day. Now losing any sense of dignity re Carmichael. Wishart is a liability.
@ Alastair at 3.10
Not ping pong; just for clarification –
I wasn’t criticizing any of the 3 MPs I named. I read your post as saying that it was difficult to resign and was just giving the first 3 examples that came to mind of people who had managed to do this recently (when Adams resigned there was some discussion about whether he could be appointed Sheriff of the Manor of Northstead, or whichever route he eventually took, because he had never attended the HoC – clearly he could).
Reckless also fought and won a by-election; unlike Carswell he didn’t retain his seat at the GE.
I think it’s silly that they can’t just resign like everyone else, but the rules they are obliged to follow do work.
Petra, 8.10pm says:
Isn’t it just fantastic that the ordinary person in the street has such power now.
I used to sit at home pulling my hair out at some of the things that were going on . . . I’m sure many other Scots, right across the Country, felt this way too.
The Internet, Referendum and sites like this have brought so many like-minded people together and it’s just wonderful to behold. I’m so proud of the Scots: Scotland.
But presumably only Scots born in Scotland, isn’t that right, Petra?
I have a question. If this action succeeds, will Alistair Carmichael be allowed to defend the seat or will it be as with Phil Woolas, where he was disqualified and someone else stood for Labour (and won the by-election incidentally)?
Fiona,
“Certainly my own wee case, cost £304 just to get it into court. A lawyer I spoke to told me that representation would likely cost £40,000. So I had to do it myself”
The vast majority of lawyers are the lowest of the low in society.
Where are the “Lawyers for Yes” when you need them?
Couldn’t they provide their services free for this case?
Our resident lawyer Chalks?
Solicitor Paul Kirkwood?
The Guardian article Police investigate Alistair Carmichael over memo leak (published at 22.12hrs tonight) mentions the crowdfunding campaign.
I’ve put my £20 in. Best of luck to the campaign.
I have just contributed to the cause of removing this lying MP from his seat he won under false pretences. I used a link from the Guardian website and for that “sin” I have now been banned from the laughably entitled “Comment is Free”.
Well, all I can say is . . . F**k ’em! That won’t stop me standing up for Freedom of Speech and the right to protest against a corrupt LibDem MP.
I urge everyone to contribute £5 towards this worthy cause; help take back democracy into our own hands.
I note that the Guardian now has this little disclaimer at the end of the article “Police Investigate Carmichael” . . . Quote: “Comments have been switched off on this article.”
That’s after only 8 comments!
I wonder if this has anything to do with the Guardian editorial supporting this lying shyster?
I wonder if Michael White wrote the editorial. Seems likely
Just watched the strange moustachioed, rude, patronising Guardian journalist Michael White a.k.a Alistair Carmichael apologist on STV Scotland tonight. What an unpleasant and ignorant Westminster crony he is. Lesley Riddoch really kept her cool and dignity dealing with this superannuated ex-hack.
Result, Michael White, your crass rambling has encouraged me to register my disgust at you by making a second donation to…
link to indiegogo.com
Oh this new democracy is a rare and heady feeling.
Good grief, just checked the People-v-Carmichael fundraiser for the Orcadians and Shetlanders. It has now gone past the 40% mark.
EXCEPTIONAL !!!
Mike MacKenzie MSP was very measured on the Sarah Smith Scotland 2015 BBC2 show despite Smith’s attempts to interupt him.
£25,008 midnight.
@Natasha
Elephants never forget eh!
@Rock
Even if you could get your own representaition for free, if you lose you pay the other side’s cost. Generally it’s not a solicitor it’s am Advocate or QC, and there can be the cost of expert witnesses, to prepare their report at say £2,000 per shot, and on time at £150 + per hour in court.
@Natasha
Elephants (and short arses) never forget eh!
Regarding the fundraiser, it looks as if they have every chance of meeting their target. What a punch in the puss that would be for Westminster.
Finally we prove that we can hold them to account for any lies they may tell or other discretion. It may sound bad but it is needed. We need to bring a halt to the shenanigans that have gone on for decades.
This is possibly the biggest step ever taken towards that goal! It is people like you and I that are making the difference, let’s keep the pressure on. It is our lives.
link to indiegogo.com
@Thepnr 12.07am
Oi! You wouldn’t dare make comments like that to my face (not unless I was on a stepladder anyway).
@Thepnr
That’s really spooky; I posted my response to you BEFORE I had seen your second dig at me. Great minds thunkalunk.
Natasha & Thepnr…
I get this mental picture of yooz in a wildflower meadow, around 8 feet apart, with white doves fluttering around your heads, while yooz dance around, like in Wickerman.
Is it just me?
I await Yoda/Today’s analysis of my mental state.
@Natasha
All true Wingers think alike, that’s why we here. We share a common goal or belief if you want to look at that way. Some call us deluded, or mental, obsessed and much worse!
Mostly true
but that doesn’t make us wrong.
@BDTT –
It’s just you.
Now, Yoda/Today needn’t come back again.
That’s reassured me then Ian B.
I’d hate to think others were tainted with the same mental images. Where would it end?
Helensburgh?
8=)
Never seen Wickerman. Does it involve midgets?
Guardian article archived.
link to archive.is
Woops, sorry. £25786
Tried donating there but it appears that you have to be on Facebook or have some fancy account???
Had an Orkney granny so feelin affrontit.
Figured it oot & rattled the can.
@ Fiona says ”Petra it is a point of view and it has some merit. That is not my point, though.”
I thought you were saying that you didn’t think that Mundell et al were involved. I must have picked you up wrongly.