A radical idea
Posted on
December 29, 2019 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Gee, you think?
If only someone had said something before, eh readers?
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29 12 19 11:57
A radical idea | speymouth
Ignored
Wee Blue/Black Book mebbies?
Agreed!
I call it the Wee Blue Book.
I presume an updated version will soon be commissioned with the
Next Fund Raiser?
It can include all the broken promises by the Tories, which happens to be
All of them.
The details of how Scotland’s votes, needs and wishes are of no consequence to England’s Politicians and their filthy rich elite masters.
Agreed we already have,
My mother in law long time liberal for 1st time on 12th December voted SNP for Pete Wishart. She is 92, we are turning many like her.
Yeah redo the wee blue book, I will donate
He’s not…. he’s not… he’s not actually trolling the Wee Blue Book is he? Surely not….
As my french teacher would say ,
“We must get down to brass tacks”.
If the next one contains all the Tories’ broken promises, I suggest calling it the ‘Blue Book’ rather than ‘Wee Blue Book’.
I’ve been running through some of the Red and Blue Tory lies and deceit
To the detriment of Scotland.
Think we will need to call the Big Britnat Boxed Set Encyclopaedia.
Delivered to your home on a pallet by a fork lift driver.
Business as usual then.
“He’s not…. he’s not… he’s not actually trolling the Wee Blue Book is he?”
I actually think he is. If you read the whole article it says “Y’know, like The National”.
A day late and a dollar short ha!
Can’t imagine where they got the idea.
The National is trolling us all while it commissions articles from unionists like Gerry Hassan….
…never mind its support of Bella Caledonia & Mike Small….
Wee Blue Book aside, am I the only one who takes from that the idea that they plan to take at least several years of this decade collecting their very large salaries while allegedly working on the “convincing” of the case they have made no attempt to put for the last five years?
Just read his piece and can’t help but think, what about you fucking lot?
The SNP have paid lip service to independence since 2014 and have done nothing – zilch, nada, fuck all – to build up the vision of a better Scotland through self determination. They have barely mentioned what is supposed to be their core aim, and when independence does pass through Sturgeon’s lips, I certainly detect a lack of conviction.
Yes, we all have a part to play but there’s also a role for leadership. And that means standing up for what you believe in rather than the insipid triangulation that has passed for party policy this past half decade. People need to be inspired.
Further to mine of 11.25am, on that page to which you link where Russell talks of Independence “well before” 2030, there are arguments by Hassan and Strickland specifically arguing for “the long game”.
I don’t know for exactly how many years I would have to tell some of the devotees here that the SNP under Sturgeon is happy managing the devolution settlement and has no intention of going for Independence, before you will start to believe me. It’s becoming like climate change denial.
@ Craig Murray :
No you’re not alone.
We won’t get any form of plebiscite while Sturgeon and Murrel control the SNP. They (personally) have too much to lose and nowhere to go to if indyref2 is lost (unlike Unionist politicians like Dugdale & the tank commander).
Someone please remind me of a husband & wife team TOTALLY controlling a political party where its ended well? Maybe Craig knows of an instance but I don’t.
The National, The Wee Blue Book, a Thomas Paine Common Sense Pamphlet, or whatever gets folk thinking and onside. Thats what really matters.
What we really need is our own folk acting as postmen/women delivering leaflets day or night through letterboxes as they did in the recent GE.
Here is an idea Mr Russell, and all SNP “heidyins” who follow WoS.
How about getting your politicians to stand up and stop taking the usual garbage “once in a generation” without correcting the interviewer. ( yes that would be a start)
There are many of us totally pissed off with the spineless touchy-feely approach the SNP has regarding such matters.
Rather than getting us all to do the donkey work yet again, how about some real action from yourselves.
12 weeks before the GE I mentioned at a party meeting about getting the message across for voter registrations, I gave them a simple answer for our branch, 2 weeks before the GE they actually did something.
First day back at WM the first show of contempt towards Scotland, every one of the SNP stand up and protest by disrupting parliament, or are you just a bunch of gravy train fearties, like the rest of them?
The natives are getting very restless and its not just with the Yoon parties.
You have a mandate, grow a pair or move over.
Craig Murray @11:32
I Know! – just how we change the Milankovitch cycle is beyond me
As others have said, and I have made this point in the past, this softly, take it easy approach, is a waste of time. And the very fact the SNP leadership has sought to ask “permission” from London for this S30 thing, is an indication of that.
What we need is not to be asking London anything, but challenging them.
However, I also detect a certain degree of trying to soften up the plebs, for a long game, of having to wait, as London seems intent to keep us waiting, forever, and SNP presently, look like they are prepared to put up with that. Hence, all these high up politicians, such as Pete Wishart, and his “we need to persuade folks nicely” stuff, the other day, and now this “Long Game” stuff from MSP Russell.
None of which is good enough, or acceptable.
Time has run right out for Scotland.
Something has to give, and SNP is getting one last chance. If they don’t take it now, and they should have taken it in June 2016 in fact, then SNP could be replaced by a new pro Independence Party, very soon.
At present, we hope SNP leadership do take a stand, and do something radical for Scotland.
But we wait to see for now. But we will only wait so long.
Hate to repeat myself, but my ancestors used to say repetita juvant.
There has been no progress (and in the case of MPs, MSPs, Councillors and Memebership numbers, a regress from the position in 2014) since Ms Sturgeon has been in charge.
We have indeed reached “peak”, and it might be “peak SNP”.
It’s the peak of the capacity and ability of the current leadership to enthuse, enthral and LEAD SOMEWHERE.
It might be the peak of where the SNP can lead us.
We’ve been stalling.
Feart of losing the crumbs on the table and be seen as the ones who risked them, the SNP leaders are stuck in the lake of BritNazi molasses.
We need a new leader for the Scottish Independence movement that takes from where the SNP got us and pushes it further.
Where is it?
‘Toom tabbards’ and ‘troughers’ will be their maxims unless the Oliver Twist-style “Please Sir, can we have another referendum?” approach is replaced with something more robust.
“We will not allow Scotland to be dragged out of the EU” they said. Well guess what readers, it’s happening in a little over four weeks!
To The SNP:
Founded in early 1930’s, broke through into Westminster in 1967 but only *now* yous want to arm folks with a book of facts? And that’s after a relative nobody hits on the idea then gets off his arse to make it happen. Have yous any idea just how demoralising that comes across as? FFS! Sincerely hope you’re having a laugh Mr Russell.
The ‘put into the hands of’ phrase is very familiar – definite WBB territory.
People are getting restless, indeed the SNP who are still the only show in town regarding independence, must now show that they are making progress.
If they are unable or unwilling to make huge efforts to obtain independence they should say so.
A new pro Independence Party will have to be formed without most of the present SNP.
Unfortunately this takes valuable time which we don’t have.
We must continue to support the SNP until it is clear they are no longer fit for purpose.
There are many talented pro independence supporters who could stand for election my only fear is the time this will take to organise.
That’s what we’ve been missing: a grey-haired, pink-faced man in a suit telling us what to do.
During the 2014 campaign, we in the yes bus team campaigned constantly in and around Dundee and especially in the city square, I talked to literally thousands of people and realised that there were problems surrounding things like currency, the EU etc, etc .
The Wee Blue Book was published and this was like manna from heaven but initially, the SNP were very reluctant to take it in distributing it from their stalls. Eventually, they relented and allowed this.
I had the idea that it would be a good idea to get one of these wee Blue books to every household in Dundee. I got together with a fellow campaigner ( John Gibson) and we agreed to pay for getting these out to all the households in the area. Problem was we did not have the mechanics to do this so I went to the SNP office in Old Glamis Rd and spoke to a group of politicians who happened to be there at the time. Told them my idea and how it was to be funded and asked if they could use their franking system to get the books out. They had a huddle and it took them 2 minutes to say no. The SNP have not changed one bit since then and that was what sterted me think9ng about their commitment to independence.
They’ve taken their eye off the ball since 2014 and are becoming the Scottish Nose Pickers.
@ Bob Costello – well done for trying.
One thing is for sure, no-one will accept Scottish independence unless there is a clear majority in favour of it. This means either a referendum or a sustained majority in credible opinion polls, a situation we have not yet reached. Setting a date for a referendum might concentrate minds and start the rise to the credible 60% + result we really need to assure acceptance of that result internally and internationally.
Asking for a Section 30 order is only the opening gambit.
The Referendums Bill has passed into legislation at Holyrood giving the legal power to hold referendums within Scotland. The UK government cannot stop a referendum being held, it can only refuse to accept or recognise the result – but that doesn’t mean the International community will react in the same way.
The Scottish government can go ahead and hold a referendum on anything they choose and I think it highly likely they will announce an Independence referendum in the new year to be held in the Autumn of 2020 just as the FM said.
They will dare Johnson to publicly say no and the more the media and Johnson make stupid noises about refusing Scotland a say on it’s own future, more the assurance that this is the right thing to do for Scotland will grow. This will impact strongly on the the *don’t knows* voters and they will swing significantly towards the proposition.
Add to this the fact that 16-17 year olds and EU citizens will be entitled to vote, and bearing in mind that technically we’ll be out of the EU by the end of January but still in the transition period thus allowing EU officials to speak their minds publicly, my guess is they’ll be arriving in Scotland in numbers to do just that
Once Scotland is assured of EU entry in a timely fashion Scottish voters will. I believe, be very keen to be voting YES in big numbers.
What you, Stu, need to be doing is preparing the new, enlarged WBB right now, so it goes into circulation well before the referendum rather than in the last few days as happened last time. I think this is what Mike Russell is asking. I think he is including YOU in the WE, so why not forget your grievances and get writing?
@ Bob Costello
the SNP have not changed one bit since then
Not the feeling I get after campaigning with activists from my local branch in the run-up to the election. In my area the grassroots and the local party are singing from the same hymnsheet.
Mike Russell is a good politician but can be a bit of an arrogant twat who puts peoples’ backs up. We can rise above that.
Mr Russell’s main end is, was and remains, the servicing of his financial commitments. He is, however, an able head-office intriguer and a consummate time-server – attributes that nobody can take away from him. Quite how such attributes will feed-into the winning of Scottish Independence remains to be seen.
Mike Russel is advocating we read The National and encourage others to do the same. Alex Salmond said exactly the same in 2014 immediately after the referendum loss. I took Alex’s advice and have subscribed since then, in spite of the many critics on this site.
What is wrong with that?
Just heard on radio news that Alistair Gray has died. The author of such works as Larnark was a pro-indy stalwart.
Do you think we’ll need permission to celebrate if we do vote for independence?
http://archive.is/HF2yR
Merry Christmas everyone.
I don’t know about anyone else but myself as an example having a young family, I simply don’t have the time nor energy to sit down and read a book, leaflets or anything majorly substantial so for instance, reading something like ‘The Wee Blue Book’ would be very difficult for me, so imagine how much more difficult it would be for someone in a similar position to me, but is not an independence supporter. There’s no chance they’re even going to have the inclination to read anything like that.
So, I think people would be better looking at other options such as podcasts, pop up ads on websites, YouTube and viral marketing on social media rather than printed paraphernalia.
The National’s article on Alisdair Gray:
http://archive.md/bsfxT
maybe it is time for wbb2?
what are you waiting for stu?
schrodingers cat says:
29 December, 2019 at 1:25 pm
maybe it is time for wbb2?
what are you waiting for stu?
Yes. YES!
+ 100
Get it done.
Also, isn’t it time for a billboard campaign?
@schrodingers cat at 1:25 pm
Presumably Stu’s holding off printing until the editing of the EU related stuff is known. You ken, like the “we won’t be pulled out the EU against our will” sort of thing…
Kinda of pointless and difficult to include the EU membership aspect in the book if it’s no longer relevant…
Scotsrenewables
You can shove your 60%+ up her jacksie.
50% +1 vote is all we need.
defo says:
29 December, 2019 at 1:38 pm
Scotsrenewables
You can shove your 60%+ up her jacksie.
50% +1 vote is all we need.
Yes, that’s gone down well with Leave/Remain, hasn’t it?
Obviously once a referendum is in progress a simple majority will be sufficient, but holding one now would be a huge gamble with no apparent shift in the polls.
And consider this – would you happily accept the result if the final tally for YES was 50% -1 ??
~
There is of course the “Scotland the Brief” book out now which many YES Hubs have.
It’s useful to have a few to hand so they can be lent to folk to read over.
https://www.businessforscotland.com/scotland-the-brief/
SR that’s not how you framed it.
” Setting a date for a referendum might concentrate minds and start the rise to the credible 60% + result we really need to assure acceptance of that result internally and internationally.”
Happy with 2 votes short, no, but we all know the definition of the word majority.
,
Yes but it will be done from a politically correct, globalist standpoint. Unlike you, you heathen barbarian with your fantasies of free speech, biological sex and critical thinking.
This is a part of phase 2 of the establishment takeover of Scottish independence – control the narrative. The yes movement will fucking love it obviously
Not the only solution by any means but for simple straightforward messages you would go far to better some of the YES Stones.
They are hard to miss, don’t rot when wet or blow away in a puff of wind. Plant them anywhere; supermarkets next to UJ produce, on D Mails, public parks, paths, monuments or mountain tops. Simple and effective campaign tool that don’t need to be particularly artistic (although some are real works of art!)
Facebook YES Stones and just ask to join. Loads of ideas and friendly advice to get your message across.
@ Mist
A podcast that people can listen to while looking after the kids, driving to work etc.
Completely agree
If this article was in the Herald or the Scotsman would anybody pay attention to Gerry Hassan’s comments then, I don’t think so
Gerry Hassan like the National newspaper doesn’t know anything, he’s guessing as is everybody and coming up with a newspaper column of his non informed thoughts like we all have, so why believe anything he or anybody else says
Sarcasm, well we can all do that, we can ridicule condemn distort anything anybody says it doesn’t take a great deal of intelligence to do that, and when you have an agenda that is opposed to the one proposed it can be a great deal of fun for the misery guts who enjoy doing it hoping to manipulate an anxious and frustrated audience by twisting their melons
How does England win, well we know they’re politically dim but they also have no choices so what they do is they get behind whoever’s in charge, even though that person could be wholly unsuitable for the job, push hard and win, as opposed to Scotland who argue over things that haven’t happened, might never happen, even someimes could never happen, then listen or believe some twonk’s scribblings who doesn’t know either
My moral to my scribblings is you don’t know anything until you know the facts from the only source who can give you them and those facts haven’t emerged yet, all the rest is Mystic Mug and chums taking the piss
If you feel a political party isn’t doing what you want threatening to moan about it isn’t a particularly effective way of making a point, threaten to vote for the other lot, and in our case the worst of that lot would be Tory, that’ll have an affect at the branch meetings
ScotsRenewables @ 13:44,
I’m sure the BritNats would be very relieved to squeak a win like that (and crow about it to boot), so why wouldn’t we?
Oh indeed. But fair lady was never won by faint heart.
The whole point about a referendum is precisely that you don’t have to wait for a demonstrable majority to achieve the desired result. You achieve it instead by astute application of close-argued facts in a situation where the usual media manipulation is officially muted and people are particularly paying attention.
All you need is confidence in the validity of your case and a good measure of courage.
As Alex Salmond had when the “all-important” =huh= polls were only at something like 30%, which is nowhere like we are now, 5 years on, and on top of which is the truly historic f-up that is Brexit and the constitutional issue.
The alternative is to plough on for years under constant attrition in a mitigation hell, where everyone with any gumption has long left for pastures new, and somehow hope that the current level of engagement will magically increase to the desired impossibly high level before daring to act. I mean, seriously…?
Dan says:
Presumably Stu’s holding off printing until the editing of the EU related stuff is known.
————
fair enough, but we know what is going to happen on the 31st jan, so this shouldnt stop it being written how about a launch and print run on 1st feb?
This is getting ridiculous. Why do we accept for a microsecond the arrant nonsense that we have to show a consistent majority for indy to even have the “right” =cough= =splutter= to hold a referendum to decide what people think?
Or even worse, to convince Pete and the Prevarication Party to have the courage to dare to make one happen?
Jeez, if we could show a consistent majority for indy right now, why would we even need to have a referendum?
50%+ a baw hair, forget 60%
I don’t regard ‘contributions’ such as those from ‘Joe’ as being in any way valid. If ‘Joe’ is NOT a 5th columnist Yoonbot out to sow dissension then he needs to be aware that that is very much how he comes across.
Let’s look at the history of the Scottish independence move ement.It is virtually synonymous with the SNP, who have been around for 80 years. First breakthrough into public awareness was Winnie Ewing’s Hamilton result in 1967.
That was 33 years after the SNP was founded.l Since then the party has had continuous representation at Westminster, rising to the 80% of seats it now holds.
It was fear of the SNP that led to the reinstatement of the Scottish parliament in 1999. For over half of the time since then we have enjoyed an SNP government.
The establishment of the Parliament and 12 years of SNP government has dramatically emphasised the differences between us and our Southern neighbours. It has made us more European, more caring, more of a national community than at any time in the previous 300 years. it is what made the close-fought 2014 independence referendum possible, and it is what made the result of the Brexit referendum so different here.
So – what have others done? Prior to 2012, virtually nothing. Seed of the Gael? Xenophobic twats trying to get jup to speed but failing. Scottish National Liberation Army ? Pathetic. Tommy Sheridan – brilliant, but fell in a trap from which he will never be fully rehabilitated. Scottish Greens? Do not command anything like enojugh public support to replace the SNP.
The truth is, all you SNP-haters and bashers are either 5th columnists or idiots. Not one of you has put forward a credible route to independence that does not involve the SNP, not one of you. And any Scottish independence mov ement that did NOT have the sjupport of the SNP wojld never gain mainstream support.
So stop your silly little Che Guevara fantasies and get real. The SNP are not perfect, and there is no doubt they are currently suffering a severe bout of entryism from the ‘woke’ wing. However, they ARE the only vehicle we have at the moment.
I know my own local branch will work hand in hand with the local grassroots. I know I will be distributing WBB mk2s from the SNP street stand when the time comes – if Stu gets his act together and prints and distributes them.
Shouldn’t you be doing the same, working with those in the party who DO ahve the same ideals and vision / (Which in my experience is most of them)
I’ve met Mike Russell and found him to be a bit of an arrogant twat. He was speaking at a meeting I was chairing in 2014 and tried to take it over. However, he is a very skilled politician and I have never for a minute doubted his commitment to Scottish independence or the cause. Those of you who do have obviously never met the man.
Yes, there is a mandate for a referendum. There is public appetite for a referendum. Now we need two more things. We need to know that we will WIN a referendum, decisively, and we need to know that the result will be internationally recognised. We are not quite there yet, but we are close.
Calls to dingy Nicola or the SNP generally at this stage are either severely premature – wait at least until Spring Conference – or they are the poisonous exhausts of a fleet of Massey Fergusons and John Deeres intent of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in true cringing Scots style.
No-one is fooled, but sadly Wings is taking some hits as the nauseating spectacle of pods of tractors ploughing every thread into oblivion drives so many of the original supporters away. The sheer volume of YoonTroll on every thread makes a rational conversation more and more difficult.
Stu, I would love to know what is happening to Wings’ viewing figures. You used to regularly report them with pride. And rightly so – strength lies in numbers – but I can’t believe the current situation is healthy.
Tell me I am wrong.
Robert J. Sutherland says:
29 December, 2019 at 2:39 pm
This is getting ridiculous. Why do we accept for a microsecond the arrant nonsense that we have to show a consistent majority for indy to even have the “right” =cough= =splutter= to hold a referendum to decide what people think?
You want to run the risk of having a 2nd referendum and losing?
Because I don’t and neither does any other genuine supporter of Scottish independence.
Jeez, if we could show a consistent majority for indy right now, why would we even need to have a referendum?
You have to be a special kind of stupid to ask this question. Either that or have no grasp of political reality whatsoever.
Dr Jim
“By Michael Russell”
The support SNP because they’re the only game in town line is wearing awfy thin.
One could be forgiven for thinking we’re being taken for granted, if not mugs.
So what about a billboard campaign????
defo says:
29 December, 2019 at 2:45 pm
Dr Jim
“By Michael Russell”
The support SNP because they’re the only game in town line is wearing awfy thin.
One could be forgiven for thinking we’re being taken for granted, if not mugs.
It’s not about you. Or me. Or Wings. It;s about all of us. Try to see the bigger picture.
I am neither a 5th columnist or an idiot (although I have never claimed to be a rocket scientist).
As posted earlier, they have asked for ideas, you give them, and they then fanny about wasting time, yes they are the only party which will give us the vote, but if never criticising the SNP and simply burying our heads in the sand with the same old same old, hoping it will be all cosy and nice,is delusional.
What’s the currency going to be? 5 years since the last Indy, I get that thrown at me constantly, once in a generation e.tc, they have the answers to say on the world platform, or is that also too harsh a criticism?
ScotsRenewables @ 14:43:
Oh, give me strength! You talk as if you don’t have an iota of self-confidence in the case or indy, nor any confidence that ordinary people will respond to it when it comes to the crunch. Well, maybe they won’t if it’s promoted by wavering fainthearts like you. Except they never will get the chance, if you have your way.
Was Alex Salmond a complete fool, and “had no grasp of political reality”, then?
Never mind the obvious Joebots. You are doing a very decent job yourself of proving that the SNP and the people running it are just not up to the challenge. (And I don’t say that lightly, or as a point of principle like the usual suspects.)
“Presumably Stu’s holding off printing until the editing of the EU related stuff is known.”
I’m holding off because there’s absolutely zero point in blowing the entire Fighting Fund until there’s an actual referendum to win. We’ve ALWAYS said that WBB2 would happen when indyref2 did.
SR
Does loyalty to the party trump loyalty to the nation?
Or is it the same thing?
What, if not us is the nation?
Does being a party member make you more Scottish than the rest of us?
Robert J. Sutherland says:
29 December, 2019 at 2:39 pm
This is getting ridiculous. Why do we accept for a microsecond the arrant nonsense that we have to show a consistent majority for indy to even have the “right” =cough= =splutter= to hold a referendum to decide what people think?
—————-
we dont, we already have a mandate. i merely pointed out that a consistent majority in the polls for yes will boost everyones confidence, including those you accuse of prevarication
“Never interrupt an enemy making a mistake” is a statement ascribed to Napoleon.
What is never mentioned is the second part, which says
“Always attack an enemy when they are in disarray”
No, he didn’t say the second part but any general worth his salt would have thought it.
Take the battle to the enemy and don’t let them choose the time and place.
They are sitting in power in Scotland, they have the majority of Scottish MP seats in WM…
if this was something they wanted to do, it would have been done a long time ago… they’ve had 4 years after all, and they’ve only just thought of this!
Instead, it looks much more likely, trying on WOS clothes and hoping to appropriate some of his funding.
Unfortunately for the SNP, when it comes to funding, I know who got the WBB out the last time, and where the best ‘bang for my buck’ comes from for information of this type. And it is not the SNP.
One month now until Scotland is taken out of the EU against its will, and 4 mandates on the shelf. The main stream media in full stream against us and not a pro Scotland Billboard in sight.
To be clear – it becomes immaterial if powder is being kept dry, or punches being deliberately pulled – the effect is the same. No point in trying to establish which is which.
If you believe that Billboards are one of the tools necessary to achieve Indy, then establish quickly if your local SNP branch will deliver on it (extract a time and date). If they do not, it will be up to local YES groups to do it. Every car is a billboard.
Defo,
I coldn’t care less if you are a party member or not. And of course loyalty to the party is not ‘more important’ than loyalty to the nation.
In fact loyalty to the party or any party is not important at all.
I am not supporting the SNP and their current stance because I am ‘loyal to’ the SNP (whatever that means). I am supporting it because until it fails utterly I believe it is the nation’s very best chance.
There is simply NO OTHER MECHANISM currently available that will result in a free, independent Scotland recognised by its Southern neighbour and by the international community. We are plenty strong enough to be a nation, but we are not strong enough to be a pariah nation.
Here’s how I see it:
~ SNP ask for a Section 30
~ Section 30 refused
~ Plans put forward for a 100% legal ‘consultative referendum’ using the powers in the new Scottish Referendums Bill
~ Outrage from Westminster but acceptance from the international community
~ Westminster encourages Unionists to boycott the referendum
~ Overwhelming result for YES
~ Westminster refuses to recognise the result because the turnout was low (possibly below 50%). International community on fence.
~ Another demand for a Section 30
~ Refused
~ Turn 2021 Holyrood election into a straightforward one-issue vote for independence
Until this process has been gone through calls to dinghy the SNP are IMO profoundly stupid and premature, not to mention immature.
The process outlined above will either be under way by or announced at the Spring Conference, so then may be the time for outrage and demands if it is not happening.
Meanwhile, Wishart and others are merely (IMO) laying down a thicker smokescreen (possibly unwittingly in Wishart’s case) to hide the true intentions of the SNP over the next few months.
The SNP are not stupid – they know that if they are not seen to be making rapid headway over the next 6 months their chances of being returned to government in 2021 are on a shoogly peg. But choosing to write them off at this precise moment in time seems profoundly self-destructive – or worse.
ScotsRenewables @12:21
“The UK government cannot stop a referendum being held, it can only refuse to accept or recognise the result – but that doesn’t mean the International community will react in the same way.”
Like the international community rode in when Madrid sent the fascist boot-boys into Barcelona to split a few skulls, or when the British Army had boots on the ground in Ulster and shot at random through windows and blinded civilians, never mind Bloody Sunday or collusion with loyalist death squads. Where were the international community then?
To paraphrase your own words, you have to be a special kind of stupid to make such an assertion. Either that or have no grasp of political reality whatsoever.
Daisty Walker,
Billboards. YES YES YES!
The SNP do not have the money for this. Local branches are mostly scratching for pennies. Wings has funds.
I will willingly donate to a billboard campaign.
And yes, my car is already a travelling billboard. IndyPosterBoy has self-print billboards if you have a billboard-sized space available.
But IMO a Wings-funded and organised billboard campaign paying for billboards in prominent public spaces in our cities and on our main roads is the answer, and in spite of my reservations about this site’s direction in the last few months I would happily donate to a billboard campaign (so long as it was about Indy and didn’t mention penises)
Stu says there is no point in spending money until there is a date, but I believe we are already in a campaign and we should start now before the date is named. This will increase the chance of it being named sooner rather than later.
Meanwhile in the REAL world within Scotland there are many who , if Boris Johnson , dropped his kecks and literally took a dump on their doorstep….they would thank him for the fertiliser donation….
However in the South they have been and are still currently encouraging the metaphorical equivalent of this above action by Boris and his crew…..fertile lands….for the few for sure …for the many though it will be same old same old….i.e. getting shat on from a great height….
A radical, and justifiable, idea for the SNP would have been, post EU Ref result, to have stemmed the flow of Brexshit for Scotland and Scotland only…by fighting for Scotland to remain in the EU and promoting Independence as the vehicle to implement the achievement of this…..all their efforts have been wasted in trying to ” save the UK” from Brexshit…a campaign that has ended up in the achieving of Jack Sh*t…for the ….UK… as a whole (Hole).
All those SNP politicians who said ..endlessly…Scotland voted to remain….correct…and by a majority…BUT…..
Forgetting, conveniently, that England and Wales voted to Leave…so why campaign to keep ALL of UK in EU…when not ALL of UK wanted to Remain in EU….all this while the Lib Dems..a Unionist party…. were telling everyone that THEY, the Lib Dems, were the largest REMAIN party in UK in order to diminish the voice of the SNP and relegate them to a minor player in the fight against Brexshit AND also demonising them, the SNP, as a ‘Nationalist’ party akin to the now exposed emergence, post Brexshit, of an extreme English nationalism hiding within what is now being seen as an obvious intolerant populist movement a La Tory party….with a side dish of Farage et al.
Theresa May stated ‘Now is NOT the time’….when we all knew that…then…. Now WAS the time…the perfect storm…the opportune moment…the time when the SNP could, with much conviction, define clearly the different paths being chosen by different nations within the UK and irrespective of the Nay sayers they would have had a strong argument and evidence to present in their case for Independence…..but instead they chose to try to be the Heroes for UKOK…a (Non) ‘Union’ they want to LEAVE….but SAVE also…now they are asking US to do the job they themselves neglected to do when the most opportune moment was gifted to them.
Well for years I have been relentlessly trying to persuade those who needed persuading over to the Indy movement side….but funnily enough could not raise a convincing reason why they, the SNP, fought so hard to keep the UK as a whole within the EU….while neglecting the obvious country to save….Scotland and only Scotland.
Which BTW if it had happened, i.e. the UK remaining in the EU, would, I am sure , have resulted in the loss of many new converts to the Yes side who converted as they saw the EU more important than the UKnotOK….especially a UK run by a ultra right wing Tory Brexshit UK….where a major player in this shit fest has been someone like low life Farage and the chancers with whom he associates with….also let’s not forget the MSM have been a major contributor to this shitfest too..the ‘Bwitish’ media..tabloid scum..gutter press indeed (both written and broadcast media obvs)….many new converts to Yes now clearly see the bias and bile promoted by these propaganda merchants.
So we failed to save the UKnotOK from Brexshit ….so now we focus on…us….will it be better late than never though ?
RobertKnight,
If you do not understand the difference between the Catalonian situation and the Scottish situation then I am not sure it is worth explaining it to you again but I will try.
1) Catalonia and Spain were never in a voluntary union of nations. (Scotland and England are, so it is not secession the way Spanish law defines any Catalonian declaration of independence)
2) Spain has a written constitution which forbids secession and makes attempted secession an act of sedition. The UK does not have a written constitution, nor any such prohibition.
3) As a consequence of 1) and 2) above the Catalonian referendum was, de facto, illegal, thus making it impossible for the international community to recognise it even if it wanted to.
4) Spain is a member of the EU. The UK will not be.So EU countries will have no bar to – and may take great delight in – recognising Scotland’s legitimate aspirations and process once the UK is outside the tent pissing in after Jan 31st.
So – utterly different situation. There is no reason to assume that because the international community did not recognise Catalonia’s claim they would not recognise Scotland’s after a properly constituted and organised referendum.
Anyway, RobertKnight, if you cannot see the logic in the above then please explain to us HOW YOU PROPOSE SCOTLAND BECOMES AN INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNISED INDEPENDENT COUNTRY ?
Because if you can’t then you may as well go and boil your head for all the good you are going to do the cause by blustering impotently on here.
@stu
with the s30 request having been officially posted, doesnt that mean indyref2 campaign has been launched?
i get the point about waiting till 31st jan till we are officially drag out of the eu against our will before going to print, but after that, i dont see anything that will change requiring the wwb2 to be edited.
in case I;m mistaken wbb 1 & 2 are about why scotland should be indy, not whether we should or have the right to a referendum
the only criticism i had of wbb1 was i would have liked it sooner in the campaign.
i cover a ward of about 9500, voters with about 6000 letterboxes, leaflets we have/will have in abundance, one for every letter box, no question. but we were planning on using the wbb2 as the basis of our canvassing campaign and not as an item to post through letter boxes.
the wbb2 is too useful and expensive to be thrown into a unionists recycle bin. also, i doubt we will have enough (6000) to leaflet drop the entire ward.
to that end, same as last indyref, we will probably need to ask confirmed yes supporters NOT to take the wbb, unless they intend to give it to someone else, an undecided etc.
we will win if we can get a wbb2 into the hands of everyone who needs to get one. writing it and printing it is only the start of this process.
we need no one to tell us we can campaign for scottish independence, but someone firing a starting pistol would be useful if it mobilised people on mass. (the result of the euref had a similar effect) why not you and wos? who else can do it?
ScotsRenewables @ 15:26:
Well, that is certainly true. And all our chances go down with it, since – as you also correctly say – there is currently no alternative.
Which is why it is all the more puzzling to me that, post a very convincing win in the recent – and always difficult – UKGE, all we are hearing is the same old weary and uninspiring prevarication from Wishart & Co. After their “win” =cough= in 2017, the Tories never let up on their “success” until we were sick of it. Another effective outing of the Big Lie.
But instead of proper follow-through on a significant success, all we seem to be getting is more feeble urging of patience.
It’s painful and demoralising. It feels that we are being led by bureaucrats and fearties without the least sense of opportunity.
Clapper57, I think you will find that the SNP argued for either:
~ A separate deal for Scotland
or
~ Single market and customs union for all
or
~ No Brexshit
They would have been quite happy with a separate deal for Scotland (as is happening for NI) but it was rejected out of hand.
To then throw their hands up in the air and say OK, it’s indy NOWthen would have furthered the ‘all they ever talk about is Indy’ meme. Neither condition for implementing the mandate was fulfilled at that point and the whole proposition was too easily shot down in flames.
The SNP did what they had to. Now we are out of the EU and both conditions for implementing the mandate are finally fulfilled.
It is what they do over the next four months that is important.
That is why the trolls are rising to a crescendo now. Momentous things are about to happen, and if they don’t then the SNP may be finished. But we don’t know yet.
So let’s just see what the next three or four months brings before we lose the plot.
We can expect Johnson to continually deny the S30, with his Brexit backed winning majority.
Brexit is self-harming on a grand scale, Walter Lippmann, was one of the first to mention the manufacturing of consent, it worked on a huge scale even mining towns destroyed by Thatcher voted Tory this time.
There’s no use looking to regulatory bodies for help they were captured a long time ago, a recent example of that is the head of the FCA, is now the head of the Bank of England, or will be soon.
Of course Alan Greenspans (Once head of the Federal Reserve) notorious memo, that states, keep the populous in job insecurity and you keep them compliant, is already in action in the UK, removing EU protections will, only see this exacerbated.
I also expect in the not too distant future of the UK outside the EU to see (especially after a US trade deal) Powells Memorandum see business interests as more important than democracy.
Don’t expect Johnson to reflect piblic interests now he’s in power, his duty is to those who financed him to get there in the first place. His political advisors told him what was best to say to become elected as PM, its very unlikely he’ll follow through on promises, as we already know he’s a liar.
It seems now that lying to the public on a grand scale has been recognised and accepted by the electorate, and that it has now become part of the process.
Due to our apathy on the subject we can expect the lies and promises to just keep getting bigger, as the UK becomes a nation of more financialisation of the economy and offshoring, and less manufacturing.
“Stupid, immature tractors” at every turn.
Don’t question the status quo, or you will be denounced too.
schrodingers cat @ 15:19,
There’s no denying that a surge for indy in the polls would be a great tonic for all, of course. But this is the dear old Scottish public we’re dealing with here. =sigh= We have to have a “plan B” (to coin a phrase =grin=) for dealing with a situation where such a shift is not forthcoming, as I anticipate will be the case.
And I earnesty suggest that simply waiting for events to make the necessary difference just isn’t the answer. Will be self-defeating, in fact.
To put things another way, it’s getting time to cross the Rubicon, like BoJo & Co have done with Brexit. If we can’t actually win a referendum in the very near future after what has been perpetrated upon us during the last 3-odd years, we will never win one.
Half the BTL thread taken up by some SNP fuckwit drone accusing everyone else of being “tractors” (that wasn’t the site edit BTW) while simply saying “trust us… just because”.
Says it all I think.
Robert J. Sutherland says:
29 December, 2019 at 3:49 pm
ScotsRenewables @ 15:26:
. . . it is all the more puzzling to me that, post a very convincing win in the recent – and always difficult – UKGE, all we are hearing is the same old weary and uninspiring prevarication from Wishart & Co. After their “win” =cough= in 2017, the Tories never let up on their “success” until we were sick of it. Another effective outing of the Big Lie.
But instead of proper follow-through on a significant success, all we seem to be getting is more feeble urging of patience.
It’s painful and demoralising. It feels that we are being led by bureaucrats and fearties without the least sense of opportunity.
I don’t see it that way. The Referendums Bill was voted onto the statute books at Holyrood on Dec 16th, a week after the election, and the official S30 request went in three days later. We can expect the refusal by mid-January and then ‘Plan B’ comes into play.
If there is no Plan B and Empress Nicola truly has no clothes then we will know that by the Spring Conference. Until then we know nothing as the SNP learned from 2014 that they need to play their cards VERY close to their chests.
Don’t get me wrong, I may be wrong and the empress may truly have no clothes – but this situation has been a long time in the making, and I don’t personally think that will turn out to be the case.
Billboard have been discussed for the last 3 years in my area, anyone seen any pro Indy Billboards?
The best cheapest most cost effective way of getting your message out is, saying on the TV/ wireless when being interviewed, start with “once in a generation is not legally binding” before answering any questions, and repeat, repeat, repeat.
Vestas says:
29 December, 2019 at 4:00 pm
Half the BTL thread taken up by some SNP fuckwit drone accusing everyone else of being “tractors” (that wasn’t the site edit BTW) while simply saying “trust us… just because”.
Says it all I think.
And your valuable addition ot the discussion is??
defo says:
29 December, 2019 at 3:58 pm
“Stupid, immature tractors” at every turn.
Don’t question the status quo, or you will be denounced too.
Oh do fuck off. I have been questioning the status quo since I started voting SNP in 1974.
I have been fighting for indy since 2012.
What have you been doing?
The Referendums Bill has not yet received Royal Assent.
As our politicians prevaricate on healthy salaries… what the hell must it be like for businesses and their employees directly affected by the uncertainty and can kicking.
Here’s just one example from the seafood industry.
From February.
https://web.archive.org/web/20190214203727/https://www.berwickshirenews.co.uk/news/d-r-collin-facing-reality-of-brexit-1-4873269
From September. (page doesn’t seem to like being archived)
https://apnews.com/acf2ab5cfd6a440191ce728f608f7e78
” ScotsRenewables says:
29 December, 2019 at 4:14 pm
And your valuable addition ot the discussion is??”
Paying for the site you choose to call people “tractors” on.
Fuck off back to your SNP branch forums.
A billboard campaign is a good idea. Something along the lines of the Led by Donkeys billboards as well as showing off some of the YES material.
@ Balaaargh :
Won’t happen as the billboard companies won’t accept the adverts. Same as 2014.
I suppose Mr Russel has in mind the ‘snowflakes’ among the electorate. The deliver independence with no hassle, no inconvenience, no nasty touches of political reality and perhaps we’ll go with it otherwise we will stick with the union thank you, type,
Spending time schmoozing this constituency runs the risk of alienating the converted as well as provoking disenchanted with the established order.
Any slowing down of the process In the hope of converting the ‘laggards’ needs some deep thinking. Missing opportunities is something of a Scottish ‘vice’.
Are these suites even aware of what “substantive equality” means in constitutional terms. Do these folk appreciate what it takes to maintain the “liberal” in “liberal constitutionalism”? Going with the flow and hopping the grass-roots do all the work, ignores the duty of care the Scottish government has to protect civil society and public health in Scotland. Brexit can be expected to harm both, where is the legal challenge to the PM’s majoritarian abuse of constitutional power?
Substantive equality revisited
https://academic.oup.com/icon/article/14/3/712/2404476
All you people criticising the SNP for not taking enough action to have an independence referendum
Just remember this
More than half of people in Scotland who voted in the GE voted for unionist parties
It’s all fine saying EU citizens and 16/17 year olds will bolster the YES vote
BUT are you certain that it would give us a majority in favour of Scottish independence ?
CERTAIN ?
If you are not certain
Don’t you think the best way forward is to keep chipping away
Trying to increase the number in favour of Scottish independence ?
Just like the SNP are doing
Are you prepared to take the risk that we get pipped at the post again like we did last time ?
I’m not , I’m 64 ,
If we get pipped at the post again it is possible it will be more than six years we wait for the next one
Re distributing the WBB. I wonder what the proportion of rural to urban properties is? We live 20 miles outside Dundee, up a farm track, and in the nearly 20 years we have been here we have never once had a visit from anyone electioneering, only one salesman ever, and one door knock from a Jehovah’s Witness. We both worked at home, so it’s not as if we were out all day. We go into out of town shops to do our shopping, only go down our local high street every few weeks. During the last indyref we never saw a WBB, did not know of it’s existence, did not visit anywhere where there happened to be a yes stand at the time we were there. We weren’t into politics then, and a copy of that WBB would have made a difference to us. I don’t know what it would cost to post it to every house in Scotland, and Yes some would go in the bin, but it would be worth crowdfunding that so that rural or isolated communities don’t get overlooked.
Would it be worth liaising with the SNP to get it posted with their material? Or with the foot soldiers at the local yes groups to deliver along with SNP leaflets. Or is this being naive? A lot of Joe public get their politics off the BCC and MSM, not so much the internet, that WBB is an important tool and EVERYONE needs to read it.
@ Boudicca :
The SNP would rather cut off their own limbs than engage with Wings.
We are an embarrassment to them now they’re on the eternal gravy train.
Some of the comments above are interesting. There seems to be an assumption that rational arguments will persuade large numbers of Scots to support independence. That overlooks the reality that generations of the cringe – learned helplessness – afflicts many Scots. The relative success of the Scottish government, which filters through despite the Brits’ attempts at characterising it as failure, is gradually dispelling the notion of ‘too wee etc’. But it takes time and circumstances for people who have been literally brainwashed to break out of their prison, if they ever can. We have to exercise patience.
On the other hand there is a real need for more radical and more caustic perspectives and actions such as those of Stu, to ensure that the process doesn’t die of inertia. We need a balance – not a cosy smothering of ardent, critical voices but an acceptance of diversity of opinion of how best to proceed. That is why I support Wings AND the SNP.
What I find also to be interesting is the notion that Nicola Sturgeon is actually just a career politician looking after her own interests. Not to put too fine a point in it, that is just shite. It is a good example of the psychologist’s fallacy, of people putting what would be their motives on someone else’s behaviour. But all comments, however bent, are grist to the mill of our common cause even if they verbalise notions that most of us would discount out of hand. It highlights the need for us to be ever vigilant as to the risible narratives that the Brits like to use, unsuccessfully, to undermine us. And they give us the opportunity to ponder the motives of those who choose to promote them.
@ Clapper57 3.40pm not for the first time clapper I salute you and your dissection of the situation , past and present .
How very dare the SNP hierarchy now decide , belatedly , to encourage people to print off and publish information that may help in our drive to independence , while ALL the while THEY are the ones who have done EVERYTHING in their power NOT to speak about independence even to the extent of introducing science denying legislation which has been even more damaging to the cause
They have had 5 years to explain the benefits of independence to the ditherers and have significantly failed to do so
They have failed to address the GERS report and produce evidence that it was conceived by a tory minister to deceive Scots that they are too poor to govern themselves .
They have failed to produce figures in simplistic form to show ditherers that this is not the case , yet ordinary independence supporters are doing just that at their expense
They have failed to show ditherers just how rich and resourceful Scotland is as a country , and how much is being STOLEN by our neighbours in this despicable union
They have failed to challenge vigorously the repeated claims that WE will not be allowed to use sterling as our currency by challenging the MYTH that it is the bank of england in name only and apart from the fact that they can’t stop anyone from using it WE ALSO OWN PART OF THE SELF SAME BANK
They have FAILED to recognise it was not the SNP who won the election but the very many supporters , canvassers and activists like Dan who gave up massive amounts of time and energy to convince and persuade people that the SNP had their and their country’s best interests at heart
They have failed to recognise that the thousands of people and dugs who travel from all over Scotland to participate in AUOB marches are just ordinary people who are desperate for their country to be independent , yet the SNP hierarchy and our FM , with exceptions , don’t have the commitment or dedication to attend
If the SNP are dedicated to independence for Scotland and Scots they should be shouting it from the rooftops and challenging every contrary unionist position
WE WILL DO OUR BIT BUT WE DESPERATELY NEED THEM TO DO THEIRS
Stu Campbell will help a wee bit tae
Arthur Thomson@5.02
Nice one.
Indy poster boy is also a brilliant source of material, well worth a look at.
As mentioned above Led by Donkeys have a fantastic way of promoting their cause, not sure what the funding is like? but maybe worth an enquiry.
I’m hoping that as 2020 dawns we will all remember what direction we should be facing.
In favour of a billboard campaign and suggest;
‘Don’t Postal Vote – it’s RIGGED’
or
‘Scots Postal Votes – Counted by TORIES’
Arthur Thomson
I liked your post and I can see why I might appear impatient. I appreciate the journey to supporting indy hasn’t been started by many, and the task of undoing the generations of learnt helplessness that afflicts Scotland, is not straightforward or easy. It’s just that I understand a bit about democratic process, and I don’t see much respect of it from Westminster.
Channeling the River: Using Positive Psychology to Prevent Cultural Helplessness, as Applied to African-American Law Students
repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1097&context=mapp_capstone
ScotsRenewables…
“2) Spain has a written constitution which forbids secession and makes attempted secession an act of sedition. The UK does not have a written constitution, nor any such prohibition.”
You don’t need a crystal ball to figure out that’s exactly the direction the UK Government want to take and they’ve got the majority needed to achieve it.
As for the EU, Spain will gag any effort to give succour to Scotland. Spain don’t even recognise Kosovo FFS, you think they’ll let the EU make mood music to Scotland? Delusional!
As for Indy – Single issue 2021 manifesto for Holyrood, Repeal the 1707 Act of Union; >50% of votes cast AND >50% of seats gives a legitimate and legal mandate by any measure to bring our MPs home and start the negotiations. Stick your IndyRef2 with all the Yoon antics that’ll come with it – we don’t need it!
Boudicca
I deliver many leaflets on the other side of the tay. It is an accepted practice that in many areas, eg the area around cupar, involves lots of driving for little return, eg, one can canvas and deliver to more people in a street than we can in the countryside. it is a question of resources, not every group has as many activists as we do.
in defence of your argument, I do travel and ensure every house in my rural area gets leafleted (canvassed as well, it makes no sense to drive 2 miles along a farm track and not to knock on the door) the response is brilliant and well received.
the biggest problem is having detailed map and the names of the occupants, I still find houses that have been missed by myself after doing this since 2012!! local knowledge is invaluble. it also helps me now to avoid wasted journeys!. consider approaching your local yes group to help remedy your situation.
there is no substitute for face to face canvasing.
ScotsRenewables…I agree with a lot you have said. I would even go further and say that Nicola has been very confident in what she has been doing lately. It’s as if she knows things are going to change massively after the 31st January. I wouldn’t be surprised (and legally would actually expect) that the EU say they cannot negotiate any trade deals until they know what Westminster can actually guarantee what they have in their powers to trade with in the future…i.e. is Scotland and all of it resources guaranteed? I expect the EU will insist that this is sorted before anything happens.
robertknight says:
29 December, 2019 at 5:29 pm
ScotsRenewables…
As for Indy – Single issue 2021 manifesto for Holyrood, Repeal the 1707 Act of Union; >50% of votes cast AND >50% of seats gives a legitimate and legal mandate by any measure to bring our MPs home and start the negotiations. Stick your IndyRef2 with all the Yoon antics that’ll come with it – we don’t need it!
Great idea. Except that you will presumably be encouraging people to vote for anyone but the SNP.
If you think that over 50% of the Scottish people will take a punt on a brand new party or parties with precisely zero policies for actually running the country once elected then you are even more of a dreamer than I took you for.
Not going to happen. Stick your UDI with your other comic book paramilitary fantasies.
The positives: The SNP has introduced a substantial measure of social equality to Scotland – bedroom tax effective deletion, deletion of uni fees, free prescriptions, School exam success has been on the rise despite selective nitpicking by the Unionists. SNHS performs well despite the Unionist nitpicking…remember Monklands, a hospital facing closure under the Unionists? Bridge tolls abolished, new Forth road bridge, A9 upgrade.Would any of this happened under a Tory/Labour administration at Holyrood?
By it’s performance the SNP have demonstrated it’s ability to administer a socially fair society in Scotland. Reading the criticisms expressed here, are you willing to risk weakening the SNP? Remember. we have no alternative pro-Indy political party.
The negatives: Well the SNP seem overly cautious on pressing the case for independence. And the SNP simply lack a rebuttal unit to counter Unionist misinformation and smears. Meek acceptance of – the Gers report, of the ‘Once in a lifetime” Unionist nonsense – I find the caution very frustrating, but then, SNP face the UK media single-handed.
Note the Unionist, and Trump strategy – single liners – “No to another referendum”, “Get Brexit done”, Oven ready Brexit deal”. And a media willing to relay these one liners, without challenge.
I feel we need an alternative pro-Indy political party as proposed by Wings, not to compete against the SNP, to be a more vocal combatative Pro Indy party without the dour responsibilities of departmental responsibilities. A bunch of Wings candidates now, as list MSPs seats would do nicely.
Yet AGAIN I’d point out that none of the billboard companies were willing to host pro-indy material in 2014 and that is still the case.
Saying “why don’t we do this – again & again &…” doesn’t help.
To “Arthur Thompson” – there’s very few of the “20-year” SNP politicians who really care about indy as its definitely going to reduce their income. Pete (Gammon) Wishart being the poster child.
Re the Sturgeon/Murrell stuff – they both depend 100% on their positions in the SNP. Murrell might get a place somewhere commensurate with his current salary in lobbying but Sturgeon was a mediocre solicitor (ie little experience) who now comes with a lot of history and even less current experience of law.
tl;dr – its not in the interests of the family running the SNP to push for anything much unless its 100% risk free….
Vestas….why don’t you run for first Minister and CEO of SNP.
You seem wonderful !
Vestas
I can’t vouch for your claims, but if the optimal strategy needs to be 100% risk free, why the headlong rush to endorse gender-ideology in law? Or do you think that simply another example of poor judgement and ignorance of the law?
ScotsRenewables…
So you’ll just keep on periodically trudging up to the door of No.10, begging bowl in hand, giving it “Please Mr Prime Minister Sir, I want another IndyRef”.
And when the door is slammed shut in your fizzer for the umpteenth time, what’s your Plan B? Or should we assume you’d have the FM of the day adopt a policy of doing the same thing over again but expecting different results – such action being the definition of Insanity.
As for “paramilitary fantasies”, the only thing remotely military that comes to my mind is Captain Mainwaring. Sound familiar?
@ CameronB Brodie says:
29 December, 2019 at 6:27 pm
“I can’t vouch for your claims, but if the optimal strategy needs to be 100% risk free, why the headlong rush to endorse gender-ideology in law? Or do you think that simply another example of poor judgement and ignorance of the law?”
I think that GRA is a “risk-free” strategy if the SNP is the only game in town. Worst case they lose some older voters.
Re Sturgeon/Murrell – they run both the political and managerial side of the SNP and derive most of their income from that. I don’t think that’s healthy in terms of an independent perspective.
YMMV of course.
The last 5 years at WM, the biggest media response the SNP party got, was when they all walked out of WM, if that is what it takes to show the establishment we’ve had enough then so be it.
A few weeks back WoS had a discussion about a Scottish National anthem, “Cap in Hand” was mentioned, I never registered the irony at the time.
What a silly old twat.
Where has the SNP’s strategy been, it’s
passion , it’s assertiveness, its very lust for independence. Again I say ,that for the past five years all that have done is feebly react to events. What an indictment to come out with something like this now whwn the rev has been doing it for ye
ars.
There is zero chance of the SNP risking their careers / Establishment power base as the Scot Govt / North British colonial administration for the chance of independence.
So, the idea of using Holyrood 2021 as a plebiscite election on indy can be ruled out.
The SNP wouldn’t even risk their SNP MP jobs, as they get British money as British MPs. eg Short money.
——————————–
If nothing is ever done to create a single-issue Independence Party, the SNP can always rely on: “who else but the SNP?” just as Labour always relied on: “who else but Labour?” until the SNP challenged them.
@RobertKnight
You don’t appear to have read any of my posts.
I don’t recollect ever saying we should ask for more than one S30 order. That has now been asked for. A train of events is in process, but you seem to be too stupid to see that.
Vestas says:
29 December, 2019 at 6:06 pm
Yet AGAIN I’d point out that none of the billboard companies were willing to host pro-indy material in 2014 and that is still the case.
Firstly, that is nonsense. Tehre were pro-Indy billboards, albeit n ot very many.
Secondly, it is nonsense. You have no proof of that.
Thirdly, Led By Donkeys.
@ ScotsRenewables
” I think you will find that the SNP argued for either:
~ A separate deal for Scotland
or
~ Single market and customs union for all
or
~ No Brexshit”
Hi ScotsRenewables…yes I know…and that was great…then it stopped and became all about Stop Brexit for the UK.
****************
” They would have been quite happy with a separate deal for Scotland (as is happening for NI) but it was rejected out of hand.
“To then throw their hands up in the air and say OK, it’s indy NOWthen would have furthered the ‘all they ever talk about is Indy’ meme”
You know ScotRenewables……that is the whole point…why should the SNP always but always be on the defensive about independence…as if somehow it IS something that is wrong…that is what the Unionist campaign against Independence is all about…presenting independence as something which is negative…shameless…reckless…unmentionable ( well by the SNP…Unionists not so much)…detrimental to Scotland…like some kind of subversive anti establishment initiative.
It is what the Tories in Scotland ALWAYS base their entire election campaigns upon…and to those NOT politically engaged it resonates because the Unionists are always the ones on the offensive while the SNP must therefore be the ones who need to be on the defensive side….
So we need to defend the desire to be an independent country ?
When you say ” To then throw their hands up in the air and say OK, it’s indy NOWthen would have furthered the ‘all they ever talk about is Indy’ meme”….but Indy is their, the SNP, raison d’etre as everyone knows is the case….and under the circumstances yes it would have been the most opportune moment to have declared it loud and clear….whether they would have or would have not they, the SNP, would still always be accused of “all they ever talk about is Indy” even when it is the Unionists who talk about it MORE….at least reasonable people would see the logic and justification under the circumstances of the SNP raising it and willing it…… i.e. Scots voting to remain in the EU but having to leave because the rest of the UK , bar NI, want to leave.
Unfortunately …everything they REQUEST is , as you say, ” rejected out of hand”…and that is also a reason why they should have gone for bust….after all is that not what they are doing NOW ?
I vote SNP and I am a member but I also have an opinion , free will and allowed to share my thoughts via free speech…not saying I AM right or that YOU are wrong….I am sure that as we debate this Boris and his cronies will know they must eventually concede….but what is worrying is upon what terms will they dictate….based on their past record I suspect they will not play fair….anyway what do I know….not a lot….just an opinion….not worth falling out for…Christ we have enough enemies outwith this blog Lol
Have a good evening…
@ velofello
I feel we need an alternative pro-Indy political party as proposed by Wings, not to compete against the SNP, to be a more vocal combatative Pro Indy party without the dour responsibilities of departmental responsibilities. A bunch of Wings candidates now, as list MSPs seats would do nicely.
Firstly, why do we need such a party? Being vocal and combative does n ot necessarily invoplve forming a politicval party, does it/
Secondly if it were to happen I would prefer to see a list-only pro-indy party that was if not endorsed at least not dissed by the SNP. Stu is not the ideal person to lead such a party, for fairly obvious reasons. I would prefer to see someone like Lesley Riddoch fronting it.
Thirdly, we already have a predominantly list-only pro-independence party, the Greens. They already have a substantial following. Why can’t we try to make them more electable?
The problem with all these armchair warriors chanting SNP pathetic is that they are living/posting in a bubble. At the moment they are more of a liability to us than an asset.
Clapper57
Agree no need for the SNP to be defensive about Indy. But they are in a peculiar position because they are no longer the single-issue minority Westminster party they once were, they are also the long-term devolved government of Scotland and that HAS been good for the country and its people.
It’s a tricky horse to ride, Nicola is not perfect, Pete Wishaw sounds like an old woman – but they may be on the verge of pulling this off. I cannot see why now is a good time for all the negativity. I can however see why this negativity is very much playing into the hands of our opponents, divide and rule has aye been a prime tactic of our Imperial Masters.
Post the Spring Conference if there is no visible progress then you may find me right behind those shouting for Nicola’s head, but now really is not the time . . .
Clapper57
Somewhere back you referred to the new conservative government as being ultra right wing.
I would totally disagree as this is a government that needs to appeal to all its new ex labour voters and, from what I can see, most of its economic policies are very left wing.
Austerity is being reduced.
Public expenditure is being increased.
There is talk of CGT being increased.
Government deficits are being increased.
More public expenditure in deprived areas.
Tax cuts are being targeted at the lower income groups.
The SNP warnings of economic collapse look like scare stories with stock markets booming.
I just don’t get your analysis.
Have you ever considered that Brexit might be a success or does that scenario play badly with the SNP predictions of 100k job losses and economic collapse?
@ twathater @ 5.09pm
Very well articulated argument you have made in your comment twathater…..again.
Though in respect to me… I am still an SNP member and will vote for them until we get Indy…unless somebody better comes along who shows they are better at taking on the fight against the unionists…. as opposed to having to fend off the ….you know what… constantly…Lol
Have a good evening
@Pete: 7.21
Brexit could be good, bad or indifferent for all I care. It was NOT Scotland’s choice.
And, just to be clear, anyone who thinks IDS getting a fucking Knighthood isn’t a right wing smack in the puss to the unfortunates in this glorious United Kingdom needs to put their head down the shittiest bog they can find, flusjh it, them wipe their eyes with am arsecloth.
Now, that may not be a great technical analysis of the current economic or political situation but it is a fair summary of my perspective.
@ Pete @ 7.21pm
Hi Pete…need time to digest what you said in your comment…currently I am at the stage of …really ? …Am I reading this right ?…sorry Pete, good try , but sometimes tis best to NOT respond fully to another person’s comment…..okay now reread your comment…digested it….and I am so speechless that I must concede defeat and admit I am unable to respond to it…we shall leave it there if you don’t mind.
Have a good evening Pete….and a Guid New Year when it comes.
Pete
If I may intrude? Pigs might fly, and Brexit destroys the moral law justification for union. From the perspective of constitutional realism, Westminster’s legal competence over Scotland is a dead parrot.
@ ScotsRenewables 2.30 – well said – and it needed saying. The whingeing on these threads is often Olympic grade. It’s repetitive and tedious, which is probably the intention.
Of course , it follows from Stu posting a picture of Mike Russell and inviting everyone to throw darts at it. Perhaps he’s conducting some sort of research project. Think positive!
Scotsrenewables
please fuck the fuck off with your ‘now is not the time’ bullshit – you;re like a bloody broken record playing the (losing) long game over and over and over and….
The commentators on-line here speak volumes, but why did no-one post a link to http://www.theweebluebook.com/index.php in the comments of Thenational article?
Fixed.
Time is a pressing,
no realistic indyref2020 on the horizon by end of January, Wings Party targeting LIST SEATS ONLY (that’s for you scotsrenewables as you don’t seem to have a grasp on things) for Holyrood 2021 – led by the Rev – needs to ‘raise its head’ and get moving.
who dares wins
@ Pete
Hi Pete…sorry my comment to you was a wee bit crass…It is not really nice to try and be too smart and I apologise …sometimes passions can make you go low…too low…and then you lose.
Anyway …I still respectfully disagree with you but hey…. you have your opinion and I have mine…obviously there is no consensus between us but what the Hell…we can agree to differ.
Once again have a good evening.
I never thought I’d see the day: Even James Kelly on ScotGoesPop and WeeGingerDug are criticising the SNP.
When even the SNP’s no.1 fan bloggers are critical, there’s hope for Scotland yet.
ahundredthidiot says:
29 December, 2019 at 8:04 pm
Scotsrenewables
please fuck the fuck off with your ‘now is not the time’ bullshit – you;re like a bloody broken record playing the (losing) long game over and over and over and….
Listen fuckface, I can be just as rude as you, but I am trying to restrain myself, something you are obviously incapable of.
I understand the concept of a list seats party only, but I doubt very much that Stu Campbell could get more than a few tens of thousands of people to vote for it. As soon as it was set up all the toxic bile idiots like you have spewed out on Wings BTL would be dredged up and splashed all over the media.
Time to grow up or shut up, self confessed idiot.
Coco, WGD is saying the term ‘illegal referendum’ is stupid.
I totally agree. However, I don’t recall the SNP ever hav ing used it.
And I can’t see what the point of the Referendums Bill was if it was not to pave the way for a non-S30 referendum.
OK, I’ll say it again.
Are we at roughly 50% in the polls because of the SNP leadership OR in spite of the SNP?
Graf Midgehunter says:
29 December, 2019 at 8:37 pm
OK, I’ll say it again.
Are we at roughly 50% in the polls because of the SNP leadership OR in spite of the SNP?
I would say ‘because of’. If you disagree tell me what the SNP has done/is doing to make independence seem a less attractive prospect?
BTL on Wings is quite a small echo chamber, and seems to be getting smaller.
@ Robert J Sutherland @ 3.59pm
” If we can’t actually win a referendum in the very near future after what has been perpetrated upon us during the last 3-odd years, we will never win one”
Indeed Robert indeed….in the name of the wee man…if not now after the charade of the last three and half years then when and what will it take to convince the unconvinced or rather those who do not see, hear or indeed speak no evil on the Union (Non).
……………
Perhaps Boris SHOULD shit on some doorsteps…literally….and ones whose houses have NO gardens hence no fertiliser required…Lol
the 1st thing cameron said to salmond after we won in 2011 was, “there wont be an indyref”
westminster have not officially refused, this msm hot air is propaganda
dont repeat it.
a private members bill for a s30, if defeated in the hoc,s will open up a legal challenge
it isnt certain who will win this legal challenge
this is the forward plan, if bojo officially rejects a s30
ScotsRenewables…
If your persona were to appear in the Emperor’s New Clothes, your character would be telling the small boy to shut his mouth or he’d ruin everybody’s day out.
Under the present policy, even if the SNP had won all 58 seats and achieved 60% of the vote a couple of weeks ago, we’d be in exactly the same position we are in today.
If in 2021 the SNP win 70 seats with 60% of the vote, under the existing policy, nothing will change and we’ll still be writing begging letters to No.10
If that’s not a position entirely devoid of credibility, I don’t know what is.
@ Graf Midgehunter:
50% in the polls due to the steady stewardship of the SNP at Holyrood, as I noted in my post above.
If agreement isn’t reached with the UK government for a referendum in 2020 then a List MSPs only political party for the 2021 Holyrood election could arguably clear out substantially the list British national MSPs, provide a large Indy majority, and so add to the case for a negotiated independence.
ScotsRenewables
“The problem with all these armchair warriors chanting SNP pathetic is that they are living/posting in a bubble. At the moment they are more of a liability to us than an asset.”
The name of the game is achieving independence for our country.
The current ruling class within the SNP have been calling the shots for more than twenty years, a period which has seen them muold the Party into a moderately left of centre “right on”, internationalist, party of inclusion.
Blairism without the bombs, wrapped in a tartan ribbon, to the founding fathers of this movement, where we are now – is slap bang in the middle of where they always wanted to be.
The longer they choose to remain here (and they have been marching on the spot for at least three years) – The more of a liability to the independence movement they are likely to become.
When progress is being made it is prudent to present a united front … when none is being attempted – It is time to look out the pitchforks and the flaming torches.
@schrodingers cat at 5:40 pm
It’s not perfect but still useful in identifying and locating addresses / properties through different searches.
https://osg.scot/portal/
Of course, it’s just my opinion that Brexit destroys the moral law foundations of the British constitution.
Indeterminacy, Justifification and Truth in Constitutional Theory
https://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2960&context=flr
Test
“BTL on Wings is quite a small echo chamber, and seems to be getting smaller.”
Feel free to unpatronise us, you’ll not be missed.
Doesn’t the SNP have a fanboy blog?
velofello
It would be hilarious watching the Unionists shouting FOUL! if such a party was formed.
Test 2 (just trying to work out what I can and can’t comment on)
ScotsRenewables
“Coco”? Don’t slag me cos others are having a go at you.
I’m only pointing out the s30 is not yet law, so it will be interesting to see if it gets the Continuity Bill treatment: blocked.
WGD refers to the same “illegal referendum” language as ScotGoesPop but, it’s Mr Kelly who refers to SNP MPs specifically:
“But what troubles me deeply is any implied endorsement of Mr Wishart’s characterisation of an independence referendum held without a Section 30 order as being “illegal”. That flatly contradicts what Nicola Sturgeon said repeatedly during the election campaign – she stressed that the question of whether a referendum was already within the Scottish Parliament’s current powers had never been tested in court”.
Nicola, however keeps portraying s30 as the “legal way”. I’ve only ever heard her ONCE admit, that that’s her opinion only, as it’s never been tested in court. So, if she has repeatedly said this, I haven’t heard it.
Looks like expectation management from a leadership with no idea apart from ask No10 nicely and we will receive tactc being the only game in town.
As Craig Murray pointed out some time ago now there are more tried and tested and internationally approved ways of achieving independence than by approved referendum first mode. It didn’t work for the Quebecois or the Catalans did it Mrs Sturgeon?
If that truly is the only game in town then we absolutely and urgently need a new Indy Vehicle as the SNP are increasingly looking like they are no longer it, only trotting out the I-word when they need our votes and now afterwards it’s ‘get back in your boxes and wait until your told’ from Mike Russell.
Well fuck that, the need is urgent in case they havnae noticed. Boris Johnson looks like PM for life and Brexit is absolutely happening.
I just thought some of the readers might be interested in a comprehensive legal guide to constitutional justification. Down with this sort of thing. 😉
scotsrenewables @8:37
ooh, that hurts my feelings…
…..I still have you down as a Brit
“Legislation is making its way through the Scottish parliament that will put a referendum beyond all legal challenge”
Those were the FMs actual words
So far the FMs done what she said she would, she’s sent the official letter and as far as I know has not yet recieved a reply
I don’t think I’ll worry too much about the subversion tactics from the usual suspects until she doesn’t do what she said she’d do, but it is interesting watching and reading the manipulation attempts at melon twisting
ahundredthidiot says:
29 December, 2019 at 9:54 pm
scotsrenewables @8:37
ooh, that hurts my feelings…
…..I still have you down as a Brit
I thought you were one for a while,. but now I just think you are a twat.
If this ever gets to court, I fail to see how the UK Govt. can be in breach of the Scotland Act 1998 by simply declining the Scottish Govt’s request to modify the Act – for it is that legislation alone which governs the terms of referenda on Scottish Independence and no section of the Act states that the UK Govt. must acquiesce to any and all requests for modification.
Before anyone screams ‘Claim of Right’, the elections which take place for the Westminster and Holyrood Parliaments, and formerly that of Brussels/Strasbourg, provide ample opportunity for the people of Scotland to choose how they are governed and such elections have never been challenged in the courts despite those numerous occasions where the shade of Government at Westminster did not reflect the choice of the electorate in Scotland.
Those who talk up the prospect of legal action, (in any walk of life), are usually the lawyers.
perhaps scotsrenewables could provide some statistical evidence of WoS being a ‘small echo chamber’?
well, of course he/she can’t…..because he/she is the opposition. Covert Brit parading as an independence seeking Scot IMHFO
scotsrenewables
Oh, I am far worse than a ‘twat’ or a ‘fuckface’ – I am one of the biggest pricks I know.
and we all know what pricks do to pussies and arseholes.
Take your pick.
I also think it’s about time that the SNP govt starts behaving like a rebel province and making us difficult to deal with. We should stop cooperating with Whitehall and Westminster beyond the absolute minimum.
Develop govt accounts and departments in a manner whereby they can be divorced by a Declaration of Independence should one become necessay. We need to show No10 we are preparing to use the nuclear option if we are thwarted.
Also I could swear the Scotland Act 1998 included the right to hold indicative referenda. We just can’t hold one binding WM without their say so but we can hold indicative ones. It can be worded to stay within Devolved competences. Something along the lines of ‘Do you agree that Scotgov should open negotiations with WM about independence. Holyrood negotiating with WM is within devolved competences.
Be politically very hard to ignore a big enough Yes vote to that.
Any Yoon councils thnking of not supporting it should be pointed at the ’98 Act and threatened with ScotGov taking over and maladministration charges. If the Unionists want to boycott it then I don’t see an issue. We win by default.
Both Norway and Bouganville have voted in the 90 percents for independence. If we get boycotted we will just look like them. I can see Brussels coming out in support of us as well.
This idea that a S30 is the only route in town is treating us like simpletons. We can all read the ’98 Act for ourselves. We can all look up Craig’s archives.
Don’t take us for fools Mrs Sturgeon, you have the most informed electorate ever here. Be afraid, be very afraid.
Back in New Zealand the politicians are suitably afraid of the electorate and for good reason and not just because the franchise is just for 3 years. We the people forced them to change from FPTP to MMP and they resisted every step of the way.
The previous National govt floated the idea of softening the Nuclear Free status to play nice with Uncle Sam and the HOWL of outrage had them scurrying to say it was only an idea not a firm proposal.
Sturgeon is too much of a British patrician politician. I fear the SNP high heid yins are taking airs and graces and taking us for granted. They should remember what happened to SLAB when folk tired of being treated like that.
Please, Please can we have a Wings party in 2021. The idea may be to maintain an Independence majority at Holyrood but we need to put the wind up the SNP. We need you and Craig and some feisty women calling her expectation management out for what it is and shaming the SNP for ministerial cars and jobs for the boys and girls.
At this rate they’ll be after Queen’s honours next.
Clapper57
You seem a very respectful and nice person.
A good New Year to you.
In fact it should be a really good New Year for your pension and investments.
Economic forecasts very good indeed.
World stock markets already in good nick.
Someone else, not you, talked about UC being a disaster and it being down to IDS.
Actually, the concept had universal approval from all parties but Osborne refused to fund it properly.
As I recall IDS resigned in protest.
Maybe Im wrong but that’s my memory of what happened.
@Colin Alxander,
Wishart is indeed a twat to have used the term ‘illegal referendum’, but the SNP leadership has never used the term to my knowledge.
I can’t see what the purpose of the Referendums Bill is if it is not to prepare the way for an entirely Holyrood-controlled indyref at some point.
And I can’t see it being ‘continuity-billed’ as that was an entirely different set of circumstances. Westminster is not IMO able to pass any laws that would render the Referendums Bill invalid.
So let’s ignore Wishart and wait to see what happens when the request for an S30 is refused.
I think Wishart is doubly an idiot to put forward the idea that we could not win an indyref right now – I think we could, but it might be close.
So let’s let Boris get us a few more converts first. As I said before, if we are not in full-on campaign mode by the SNP’s Spring Conference then I think we can say they have let us down – but it really is stupidly premature to be unprepared to wait another three or four months.
Muscleguy says:
29 December, 2019 at 10:10 pm
Don’t take us for fools Mrs Sturgeon, you have the most informed electorate ever here. Be afraid, be very afraid.
I rather think it is you who is taking Ms Sturgeon for a fool if you think all she is going to do is ask for a Section 30 order then abandon the whole project when it is refused.
If that is what happens then I will be right behind you calling for her head, but it is not what is going to happen. I would be surprised if even Boris believes it, so why you should is beyond me.
Nicola has not told you what her PlanB is because she wants to keep Westminster guessing. Pretty basic strategy really.
Dr Jim
Thanks for the update re. referendum legislation, which I wasn’t aware of. The appearance of legal due process does not prove the rule-of-law is being respected though. I simply see Westminster as having lost its legal competence over Scotland, if we are removed from the EU. I’m pretty certain such an act would be unconstitutional.
Robertknight
I am not a solicitor even if I was in could only offer an opinion. Was is law is decided in the courts.
This will be there next process IF a s30 is refused
ahundredthidiot says:
29 December, 2019 at 10:01 pm
perhaps scotsrenewables could provide some statistical evidence of WoS being a ‘small echo chamber’?
well, of course he/she can’t…..because he/she is the opposition. Covert Brit parading as an independence seeking Scot IMHFO
I’ve been on Wings since 2012. There are far fewer BTL posters now, and most of them seem to be obvious BritNat trolls or naive kids who think we are in some kind of Che Guevara scenario here (or more like Wolfie Smith perhaps)
I have no idea what the Wings viewing figures are right now, but I doubt if Stu wants to publish them. Dozens of the old stalwarts who have supported and funded Wings through the years have gone now.
Are they all ‘covert Brits’, idiot? Is everyone out of step except you? I think not. Time you grew up a bit.
ScotsRenewables @ 16:13,
(Sorry, just catching up again after some family quality time.)
I just want to say that it’s not really “the Empress Nicola” that bothers me, since she has played a straight bat with us so far. Too straight and reasonable for some of us, maybe, but we’re not the ones needing convincing right now.
No, what has really “got my goat” is the surprising re-emergence of the Wishartites and nothing much else, when what we surely need is proactive building on the superb win that the people of Scotland granted the SNP a week or so ago. OK, it’s still the holiday period, so maybe there will be more “meat on the bone” before long, but it troubles me mightily that some at least in the SNP are already determined to put the brakes on, much against the overwhelming feeling among yessers that this is exactly the opposite of what is needed now. (See for example the leader in today’s Sunday National.)
Not being an insider, I have no notion how representative of SNP leadership thinking Pete Wishart happens to be, or if instead he’s merely a minority voice crying out against something significant that’s about to be set in motion, but the overall public effect is damaging. If we aren’t seen to be convinced about the impending success of our cause, how can we possibly convince all our undecided friends and neighbours that the time for indy has truly come?
Yes, what’s pending is a Very Big Deal, and the stakes couldn’t be higher, but we just mustn’t let the enormity of it all paralyse us from getting into action. Very necessary action. If the boot were on the other foot, I wouldn’t expect BoJo, Gove and their gang to just sit back and “pray for rain”. And nor from their dark side will they.
We really don’t have a choice. We’re getting to a “do or die” moment whether we like it or not.
@ Scotsrenewables you have been on this site for a long time but recently all you have come to do is denigrate and rubbish everything Stu and anyone else says which conflicts or disagrees with the SNP and Nicola’s mantra , you then go over to your other site and continue the denigration and rubbishing of Stu to the delight of those posters
Your constant accusations of trolls and subversives to people who passionately believe in independence is as insulting to people as it was when Rob Peffers , Petra and others did it
Because people disagree or are impatient with Nicola’s stance or lack of passion does not make them trolls or subversives , when people the likes of Pete post his delusions that is trolling AND pish , I agree with frogesque @ 7.37
Your post “The problem with all these armchair warriors chanting SNP pathetic is that they are living/posting in a bubble. At the moment they are more of a liability to us than an asset.” is very similar to one posted a while back by I think Hamish100 who said that if you were not a member of the SNP you should not have an opinion on what they were doing . I responded by reminding Hamish that if the SNP were only relying on their 125,000 membership then good luck with winning a GE or HE
These armchair warriors that you find so easy to deride and dismiss are ALSO VOTERS and believe it or not they also have an opinion which you are permitted to disagree with
I admire your admission that you have given Nicola until the spring to do something positive or thereafter you will consider your options , IMO all Stu and people on here are doing is WARNING Nicola that she had better do SOMETHING POSITIVE soon or the SNP and US will SUFFER the consequences
Schrödingers cat…
“This will be there next process IF a s30 is refused”
I suspect that with Brexit Phase 2 (Trade) Negotiations on the horizon, BawJaws will take a leaf out of Daisy May’s playbook and respond with a “Now is not the time” as opposed to an outright refusal.
Into the long grass it goes…
Wishart may well be a fool or he may well be just playing the fool, time will tell.
WGD last blog is interesting because it highlights that we, as a movement, and that includes the SNP more often than not allow the British nationalist to control the narrative.
As WGD states,( one among many) that we don’t know if holding a referendum without a S30 is unlawful, because it has never been tested in court. It therefore follows that if a court finds in our favour that Westminster were the ones acting unlawfully. It’s a two edged sword. Similarly, if the people if Scotland are Sovereign then Westminster can’t be.
Any time someone comes on here with good ideas on how to win Ref.,2 certain ones on here cannot wait to shoot them down I’e a wings party to get the list votes only those who are born and live in Scotland the right to vote on Their countries future no one else Incomers etc.,no postal votes and let’s have exit polls this time all these ideas is to try to close the loopholes that cost us to lose the last time so anyone who would be against any of these. Is leaving us open to get the same result as last time to do things the same way as last time and to expect a different result is the first sign of madness
Be careful though twathater, because only Nicola and the SNP can bring independence.
This site can’t ant the wider Yes movement can’t, no matter how much we wish they could.
The establishment and their media are all powerful and if we divide then they conquer and it’s always been that way.
Eye on the prize at all times. The different factions in the establishment hate each other but they always have their eyes on the prize!!!
Golfnut @ 23:05,
While some among us – myself excluded – may have doubts about the legal-constitutional backstop, the denizens of Downing St don’t seem to share them, since by some reports online and in the broadcast news, they actually seem intent on diminishing the ability of the judiciary to constrain their abilities going forward.
Apparently a particularly sore point with them was the success of Joanna Cherry & Co in getting the Scottish Court of Session to undo the executive’s high-handed attempt to prorogue parliament for an excessive period. So Scottish constitutional power is very much in their sights, and with good reason. They certainly seem to anticipate further challenges from that direction and already appear intent in “heading them off at the pass”.
The irony being that the aforementioned CoS judgement wasn’t the judiciary taking on unjustified powers for themselves as spuriously alleged, but in fact protecting and reaffirming the supremacy of Parliament in the face of a rapacious and overweening executive. An executive which has only learnt one lesson from recent events, which is that it must become ever stronger and make every other potential source of legitimacy weaker.
So, peeps, if you can’t see what’s coming from the intentions of your friends, see it from those of your main opponents. This is why I urge you all to park your complacency and doubts. Time is not necessarily on our side.
Carry on arguing among yourselves here at WOS, doing a grand job for the Britnats who must be laughing into their freaking champagne! Hahaha!
Get a grip people. It’s depressing on here these days.
Debate rationally, be positive as hell, and stop arguing, it’s too cyclic, ie, getting us nowhere and it puts me off from visiting wings these days, the negative noise is deafening.
@ AndyMcAngry 11.22pm yes Andy it is only the SNP at the current time that can take us to indy and that is part of the problem , look at the last GE where farage held the tories feet to the fire , the reality was that bozo was forced to acquiesce to the brexshit party as he knew that to ignore them would probably either result in a loss or a hung parliament , so it proves that someone in the tory party doesn’t care about gaming the system
—————————————-
Artyhetty @ 1.46am I know that rumbustious arguments can appear to be fractious and aggressive but any unionist stupid enough to think that disagreeing with fellow posters on here or calling each other names will lessen our commitment to our independence cause and give them succor is sadly deluded
When that starting pistol is fired all hands will be fighting for the CAUSE , what we are discussing????? openly is the timing issue and methodology of our WIN
@ RJS
Sound enough opinion, but consider this, if the courts couldn’t wield the constitutional sword, if the constitutional backstop wasn’t a major risk to Westminster, they wouldn’t be trying to close those avenues down.
Wings over Scotland 27th Oct, 2019 @ midday on twitter feed:
Followed by link to post ’Three days in politics’
‘I’m calling it in October: there will be no formal Section 30 request in 2019.’
I mean your ‘right’ about…everything. Naw.
Seriously, who the fuck else are we gonnae vote for? No one answers that, how many fucking warnings are you gonnae make? And who will replace NS…and in doing so what the fuck are ‘they’ gonnae do differently?
Fucking tiresome pish…the lot of it. No solutions just moaning and moaning and moaning some more. That’s all you’ve got left now.
Aw diddums the revolution didn’t come soon enough. So…scorched earth is it?
I hadn’t voted since 1997 till the ref in 2014. Fuck all to do with the SNP and whoever is top dog at the moment, all this sniping and fake characterisation of those who even reasonably ask who else should we vote for, as snp ‘acolytes’ is a patent distortion and avoidance of the question.
You destroy the snp in Scotland, all you’re doing is shooting Scotland itself in the foot, we voted No in 2014. It’s that fucking simple, until a majority decide it’s yes, only then do we get our independence.
As for the means to that end, not a fucking soul can predict that. Speculation at best, contrived bovine mastication at worse.
You don’t know what’s going to unfold anymore than the dug in the street does. Just change the blog to fucking whinges over Scotland and be done wi it, if you can no longer contribute anything positive to the case for Scottish independence then don’t use your platform to undermine what has protected this country for 12 fucking years from your safe distance in Bath.
What is the actual matter with you?
No doubt this will comment will get pulled in due course, as others have before. You clearly don’t give a fuck about the state of the btl comments now, and neither do I.
Good luck in the New Year everyone, keep voting SNP, whatever happens that thin blue line gave more to Scotland in the last 12 years than any combination of unionist governments gave in the last 100. Westminster or Holyrood combined.
Ends.
Most excellent post, K1
Hits several nails squarely on their heads.
Let’s all stop whinging and bitching. It would be nice if this place became somewhere I felt I could once more send soft No’s. I don’t think I have linked to anything other than one of Chris’s cartoons in four months now.
Why do you think the SNP are delaying to stay in their cushy jobs down south? When we are independent will most not end up with cushy jobs in Scotland?
Excellent post K1 @ 4.54 am
Golfnut says:
30 December, 2019 at 3:32 am
@ RJS
Sound enough opinion, but consider this, if the courts couldn’t wield the constitutional sword, if the constitutional backstop wasn’t a major risk to Westminster, they wouldn’t be trying to close those avenues down.
Don’t forget too, a Constitutional Test Case is a double edged sword. If we are becalmed and paralysed because the SNP insists we need a democratic mandate in triplicate before doing anything, that doesn’t preclude a Constitutional Test Case which challenges Westminster’s usurpation of sovereignty that is expressly contrary to the democratic will of the people.
Even in circumstances where Scottish Sovereignty is ambiguous or latent, the argument that Brexit represents and act of colonial subjugation is surely beyond argument, and thus contrary to International Law. We absolutely DON’T need to hobble ourselves with a fraught referendum campaign is those circumstances. We have all due justification simply to protect our interests. We don’t have to win. It will more than suffice to stop “them” winning.
ScotsRenewables says:
30 December, 2019 at 8:04 am
Let’s all stop whinging and bitching……
Oh the irony….
The thing about the British constitution is, that it is a matter that is of great concern to England’s legal identity. Much like it is to Scotland’s legal identity, though it is English common law that sustains the constitution’s moral legitimacy. That’s just not right and means Westminster will never recognise Scotland as being legally equal to England, who’s law is supreme and immutable, apparently. ‘The master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house’. IMHO, Scotland will never get a fair hearing under British constitutional law, which embodies the ideology of British nationalism and culturally reproduces English legal authority over Scotland.
https://academic.oup.com/icon/article/9/1/155/902267?searchresult=1
The Wee Blue Book and Mr Russell’s encouraging knowledge, providing answers. There was a lack of answers from YES. And lots of false answers from Project Fear.
Regarding potential court cases about Scotland’s constitutional rights. Whether we get the result we would prefer, at least people would have some of the answers, the knowledge of how Scotland and her people are regarded in law.
eg Either the people are sovereign (Claim of Right) and can take back all (or some) of their loaned sovereignty at any time or UK Parliament is because of the divine right of England’s Monarch in Parliament.
Even if it’s the latter, it would be another arm of the campaign to tell people Scotland’s people don’t count, only Queen Elizabeth, and the Divine Right of Monarch’s cos that’s England’s legal tradition.
What is the legal situation for Scotland and the UK State if Scotland declares / votes for independence? How is the divorce and financial details settled? The first indyref White Paper suggested by mutual agreement. Anybody seriously think that’s possible with the current UK Govt / UK Parliament?
Such a course of legal action is separate and can complement the SNP’s devolution referendum route. There is nothing wrong with testing all possible courses of ending the union and getting answers. Even though I’ve never favoured the s30 indyref route, now Nicola has asked, at least a NO, or Now Is Not The Time, is progress of a sort.
But, whatever way is used, it has to be by the will of the people. So, there is no division really. We of the indy campaign are all agreed and hope to persuade others of the benefits of independence over being treated as a colonial possession of the UK State.
Those who would weild power over us are already looking at ways of locking Scotland in…
https://brexitcentral.com/need-new-act-union-meet-challenges-brexit/
https://www.constitutionreformgroup.co.uk/crg-act-of-union-bill-launched/
https://www.these-islands.co.uk/publications/i325/lord_lisvane_on_the_constitution_reform_groups_act_of_union_bill.aspx
Robertnight
It’s also right there in the Queens speech;
‘A Constitution, Democracy and Rights Commission will be established’
and as you highlight, the machinery is already in place, I expect a blitzkrieg of damaging policies from the New Tory Party with our sovereignty well and truly in their sights – heading off any indyref2 or whatever options Holyrood 2021 could bring.
Excellent critique of GERS from Richard Murphy. Some criticism of the SNP, which will please many upthread. But mostly counters Kevin Hague and unionist trolls.
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/12/30/its-time-for-gers-to-go/
‘Breeks says:
30 December, 2019 at 8:44 am
ScotsRenewables says:
30 December, 2019
Let’s all stop whinging and bitching……
Oh the irony….‘
Oh the double irony….
**eyeroll**
Capella
Murphy explains that an independent Scotland will be a completely different beast to what is
presently shown within GERS but he totally fails to give any indication as to how Scotland will obtain greater prosperity than it achieves at present. It’s all very well criticising the methodology behind GERS but it’s not so easy to come up with a plan to reach ‘the starry uplands’ especially as the SNP always wants to adopt even more socialist policies than UK governments.
He also admits that we will need to run deficits but doesn’t say by how much.
At least the Growth Commission were realistic but it’s findings made depressing reading.
The fact is if you want independence then you need to accept a good 10 years of austerity,
That’s fine for folks on here but the general public need to be told that as well.
I am a Brexiteer and was prepared to accept being 10% poorer for the independence it brings.
At the moment, markets are great but that might change.
It’s the same principle with Scottish independence.
If you want it you should accept whatever comes and just admit that it might cost a lot but that the independence it brings is worth the sacrifice.
Capella 10.36
re Richard Murphy
That’s the first time I’ve come across the idea that the SNP’s failure to criticise GERS indicates an economic mindset within the SNP that is dangerous to Scotland
even if we get independence!
It is my humble opinion that Brexit is unconstitutional on a number of points, and that the process has been highly discriminatory against Scotland. I believe the fundamental legal rights of Scotland’s public have been abused by Westminster, which appears to have lost sight of a respect for natural law, as well as the rule-of-law. My EU legal identity is not simply a matter of being able to go on holiday more easily, it is confirmation of rights that can not constitutionally be removed by Westminster, unless it has Scotland’s permission.
Common law declarations of unconstitutionality
https://academic.oup.com/icon/article/7/2/183/758666?searchresult=1
@ mike cassidy @ Pete – Richard Murphy critcises the Growth Commission and Andrew Wilson for sticking to an austerity mindset and wanting to reduce the “deficit”. He believes deficits are an essential tool of government. He also argues the case for an independent currency. I can see the value of both arguments though I’m not an economist.
Pete – if you read the article you will see that Scotland’s resources are largely credited to England. Deliberately so. Allocating revenue according to proper accounting methods will, in itself, increase Scotland’s “wealth” and reduce the “deficit”. He includes links to previous articles on this issue.
If we were independent then investment in the New Green Deal will provide growth too. Read the article.
My guess is that the SNP are determined not to rock the boat too violently over things which can’t be fixed until independence.
Tiresome ego driven stale bullshit.
CameronB
Many thanks Cameron, very interesting stuff in that link!
I do wonder if there are those directing the SNP who believe that an iScotland would be much like the current offering but with embassies. Nothing to fear you guys!
If that is the case, it explains so much.
It reflects poorly on the type of politics we have in Scotland which seems to opt for reaction over pro-action. Waiting for something to turn up? Imagination perhaps?
Ever heard of the “new Commonwealth model of constitutionalism”? You’re probably not likely to, as it appears incompatible with the legal environment we can expect to experience in Brexitania. Your dreaming if you think Westminster is attracted to democratic process that “effectively protects rights while reallocating power between courts and the political institutions in a way that brings them into greater balance than under the two more lopsided traditional models”.
Reassessing the new Commonwealth model of constitutionalism
https://academic.oup.com/icon/article/8/2/167/700011?searchresult=1
mogabee
You’re welcome. I’m certainly not claiming to be an expert in constitutional legal theory, but I’d wager I know more than most. You are warned though, check everything for yourself. 😉
Can I add my thoughts on so-called divisions btl?
As a long time supporter of wings and Stu I’ve seen many times when opinion btl morphed into “I’m right, you’re wrong” conversations and don’t think they’ll stop anytime soon 😀
Quite sure if we actually had a campaign we’d come together and then the more strident voices would either disappear or tone down their rhetoric because there would be something concrete to channel their energy for or against!
Yes, the SNP have been terrible at communicating and even embarrassingly incompetent at getting points across in debates. But, Wings is also right to show us how the GRA reforms are absolutely mind bogglingly wrong and will do enormous damage to cohesion in the SNP and to women’s rights and protection.
We have to criticise and challenge or else we become like the electorate down south who voted for Tories for one thing only!
We all want a country to be proud of and which does no harm to it’s residents and basically that’s what I’m fighting to achieve.
So have a guid hogmanay and ReNew Year everyone…
OT
’tis the season of much joviality and hangovers – never, ever, speak to a bank that calls you.
Only speak to a Bank that you have called after typing in their official number. They are getting craftier with ‘Bank Name’ appearing on handsets – so don’t ‘return call’ that – all you’ll get is the same scammer.
Yes Scotland will have the same deficit as Norway as for gers I say again if it is true why did they hide the Macrone report ???fool me once etc.,
I hope folk don’t mind me re-posting this from the previous thread, but I think it is important and fits logically with my earlier posts. Constitutions must be sufficiently flexible to accommodate social change, but not at the expense of legal equality. Shirley?
Scotland’s public does actually posses legal rights, even though this fact may prove politically awkward to the more traditionally inclined.
Equality, Recognition and Social Justice: A Hegelian Perspective Announcing Amartya Sen
https://journals.openedition.org/oeconomia/5178
Norway has a deficit because it chooses to have one. The argument that deficits are a bad thing is nonsense. Norway generates a deficit to create assets, which is why most country’s have a deficit. Norway borrows money at a very low rate, while its oil fund accrues interest at a very high interest rate. Don’t allow yourself to be confounded by the Britnat narratives.
Economics !
I am stumped past fingers and toes, a deficit in an Indy Scotland will be Scotland’s deficit and we will decide how to deal with it, not some waste of skin in Whitehall.
Or am I missing something?
Important only if a better understanding of social justice is considered important, obvs.
Dan wrote on 29 December, 2019 at 1:49 pm:
“There is of course the “Scotland the Brief” book out now which many YES Hubs have. It’s useful to have a few to hand so they can be lent to folk to read over.”
https://www.businessforscotland.com/scotland-the-brief/
K1@4.54
Well said and it needed saying , hope Stu gets back to positive thinking .
I’ve followed and posted on Wings for 8 years.
I rarely post any more, as I don’t know who i’m speaking to any more.
The place seems to be full of very clever yoon plants, and good hearted folk that seem to have been fooled by them.
I ask every poster to think before they post. Am I contributing to the struggle for Scottish freedom from the Union trap, or am i hindering it by joining into their pish?
Your country needs its soldiers to be prepared and ready to act.
O.T. I see that the anti Semetic feelings have happened again do the Jews ever ask theirselves why this happens ??? Over history they have been thrown out of countries all round the world but they never seem to learn just now Palastine is the latest cause of the hate against them the murder and theft they are commitlng all the time What is the point of the U.N. OR N.A.T.O.who have been allowing this to go on for years now and do nothing ??? Those who see these things going on and do nothing are as guilty as those who are doing it by doing nothing they are condoning it
I’ve thunk, & come to the conclusion I’ve got nothing to add to ‘the debate’.
Goodbye & good luck.
CameronB Brodie @11.10am
For A50 to be legal it must be decided in accordance with the UK State’s constitution.
I argued that very point that Art 50 was decided unconstitutionally as the people of Scotland were given the opportunity to assert their sovereignty by direct referendum and voted Remain, so on the basis of sovereignty of the people, UK Parliament could not overrule Scotland’s decision. So Scotland could not be legally removed from the EU. That doing so also breached the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights.
I looked to Alyn Smyth, then SNP MEP to support my complaint. (I printed his reply on here).
No MEPs or Scottish Govt etc appear to have made any challenge regarding whether A50 was being triggered in accordance with the UK Constitution. Not one argued Scottish sovereignty.
Apparently, the SNP Scot Govt and SNP politicians all accepted UK Parliamentary sovereignty over Scotland’s people.
So, the European Council (?) accepted it was in accordance with the UK Constitution, so the EU Commission then accepted the ruling from the European Council .
Want to take it to the European Court of Justice?
You’re a contrary obfuscating stirring little shit.
Here’s an example of the pish you come out with, that’s miraculously disappeared from the thread you posted it on:
‘Colin Alexander wanks:
23 October, 2019 at 10:12 pm
Oh dear.
Even the SNiPers loathe Alyn Smith and yet I’m supposed to be the idiot for pointing out the SNP selecting Mr Smith, is gonnae gift the seat to the Tories.’
You are the idiot pointing out patently absurd fucking nonsense on here since the GE17. It’s precisely because you’re somewhere up between your own and Stu’s arse that you’ve been allowed ‘cover’ for your utter drivel btl.
Why anyone is still indulging you when it’s been obvious for years what you are about is beyond many of us, it can only be that you either know Stu or are his useful idiot as he descends ever deeper into the cynical abyss that has become ‘SNP bad’.
Colin Alexander
Yes, I think you make a logically coherent point about Article 50 being unconstitutional. Worth testing anyway, IMHO.
K1
I think Article 50 clearly fails to recognise Scotland’s equal legal status to England, as is required by the British constitution. Every ward in Scotland voted to remain. There is probable some arcane annex to the unwritten British constitution that justifies Brexit, but the spirit of British constitutionalism is dead, IMHO.
If making the rules up as you go is the definition of the ‘British constitution’ then there has never been any recognition of Scotland’s equal legal status, Brexit merely unmasks that reality.
Cameron made that much clear on the 19th September 2014, Brexit solidified the notion that Scotland is a colonial possession of England, no matter the overwhelming remain vote in Scotland not budging an inch in 3 and a half years, there never was the word in law and so there never was the ‘spirit’ of the law in place.
Golfnut @ 03:32,
My view also.
There’s more to the constitutional thing than most people realise, I reckon, and traditionally the UKGov in London has always trod very warily over such matters (while saying little). It would be foolish though to place all our hopes on the new administration being so English exceptionalist as to rashly overstep the mark and trigger a crisis all of its very own, but I have a feeling that part of the SG plan (which is much deeper than some seem to assume) is to manoevre the UKGov onto legal-constitutional ground where the latter will be most likely to lose, both legally and (above all) politically.
Choose your ground carefully, like battles in the old days, but now in the legal sphere.
And the UKGov may be intent on avoiding that by wantonly spilling the chessboard. “Fools rush in… “
K1 @ 04:54,
Always a pleasure to see you back. And very well put in your usual inimitable style also!
Thankyou Capella for your Post at 10:36am today linking readers to
“IT’S TIME FOR GERS TO GO.”
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/12/30/its-time-for-gers-to-go/
An interesting 5-8 minute read from Richard Murphy,Professor of Practice in International Political Economy at City, University of London.
K1
Agreed, legal equality has always been a stated requirement of British constitutionalism, but has proven a mirage in practice. Brexit simply exposes the bones of the beast. Or at least it would if the media did its job. How’s the BBC in Scotland on Brexit, are they managing to keep a lid on it?
On deficits and Richard Murphy’s debunking of GERS:
A government that issues its own currency has control over its economy.
Basing your economic reasoning on flawed data and accounting is not the best way to start running your own country – not disastrous, but painful, and keeping us somewhat dependent on the country we are trying to detach from.
Tim Rideout has given a clear, concise, and workable process to successfully bring into being our own currency, with no painful interlude.
A government’s deficit is our surplus. It is a good thing, and necessary, it shows the government is investing in its country, you should not put a figure on it. Note: deficit is NOT the same as debt. Consider for a moment: imagine there is no money in an imaginary world. You have formed your government, and they demand you pay taxes so they can buy stuff,,, what do you pay them with? You can’t, there isn’t any money yet. The government MUST issue (produce, spend, distribute etc) currency before it can get any of it back! That’s how fiat currency, the system that most countries use, works. There are a lot of mechanisms and checks and balances, but the idea that a deficit in and of itself is bad (for a government) is utter twaddle.
And why on earth are people still expounding that Scotland is so fucking unique in the entire northern hemisphere that they are somehow inherently incapable of running their own economy? Just because the SNP don’t have an ideal economic policy does not somehow, in all the warped logic, make Scotland’s viability as an independent nation null. GERS is of no use to anyone. Scotland has the resources to enable it to have the potential, potential, to be an economically successful country – it doesn’t mean to say we will make the best of it, we can of course follow Westminster disastrous austerity economics if we so wish. Choose who has the best economic policy in the first GE of an independent Scotland. It is the potential that matters. Talk of GERS and deficits is smoke and mirrors, and utterly meaningless while a hostile territory still controls all our fiscal and monetary policies.
K1
A breath of fresh air returns to Wings btl.
Thank you.
They’ve lived off oil for 50 years telling Scotland it was worthless, the wrong oil, the oil was going to run out a week on Tuesday, now they tell Scotland the oil isn’t ours anyway and Michael Gove declares openly that Scotland can be Independent when it runs out in around 50 years
Jim Rodgers world leading economist and billionaire says if Scotland becomes Independent it takes its oil with it and from day one of Independence Scotland will be in surplus and a great place to invest, and still Scotland doesn’t believe this
If you don’t call that the brainwashing of a people on a massive scale to make people believe that their country is swimming in oil yet will be poorer if you divorce yourself from the country next door who are taking every drop of the stuff and spending the cash on anything they want and yet another country to the North of Scotland got rich beyond imagination with the same oil
That is the success of England’s ruling classes
They’ve killed us, thrown us from our homes, stolen our land, brain drained our youth and talent, stolen our wealth, yet despite all that Scotland invented the modern world and gave it modern mathematics, medical advances and all the inventiveness Scotland was famed for but usurped by England’s ruling classes under the guise of *British*, not since the Greeks has a country made such contribution to the world as Scotland
The ruling classes of England convinced Scotland of something far worse though, they made us believe we were cowards while England’s contribution to the world was at the end of a bayonet or a bomb, but they did it all with the best possible intentions of civilising everybody, and we are civilised aren’t we, as we watch them continue to take take take and communicate our displeasure to one another in their language nice and clearly so that they can understand our unhappiness even though expressed in our gibberishly grunting Scottish accents
No country on earth who has ever experienced *Britishness* who are now Independent has expressed any interest in not being so or returning to the warm embrace of mother England they’re rather stick pins in their eyes and go blind than contemplate such madness
We’d all have been speaking German had it not been for them they tell us, well we’re speaking English aren’t we
The British state, lacking a formal written constitution, in matters deemed ‘constitutional’ can be as flexible as the English legal system, the legal system which underpins the UK, will allow.
It is nonsense to talk of something being ‘unconstitutional’ in such an uncodified, organic construct.
Scottish law is, whether it pleases or not, subordinate to the Law of England in affairs concerning the state and its integrity. Challenging the status quo in order to prove otherwise is fruitless, except for the legions of lawyers who will coin it.
The national movement as manifest in the SNP needs to get beyond this holier-than-thou infatuation with legalism.
It is fantasy to assume that Independence will one day be graciously handed over on a silver dish. Taking examples from actual history, it simply does not occur like that and under the current British nationalist régime unimaginable.
WE must win the economic argument. Therefore every Indy supporter should read and retain a copy of this latest article from tax expert Richard Murphy.
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/12/30/its-time-for-gers-to-go/
Also purchase Scotland the Brief from Business for Scotland at only £3.50 which is full of economic facts with great infographics. https://www.businessforscotland.com/scotland-the-brief/
Dr Jim @3.44
I raise a glass to you Sir.
Nice One.
@ Abulhaq
Bollocks, just bollocks.
Golfnut @ 17:00,
Nothin’ new there, then! =grin=
Dr Jim ditto ditto ditto if only we had the press and media on our side instead of the lying parcel of rogues we still have – we have to find a way to counter this and get people roused from their zombie state. It is very hard when you are fed rubbish every day – I can hear the yoons already – look how hard it was to leave a 40 year union – it will be much worse with a 300 year ‘union’. The problem is that so many of the yoons too have been blinded by the brainwashing and really believe it. Some of course don’t but they would sell their granny to climb the slippery pole and get in with the establishment – the house slaves.
we have a moral right to hold indyref2.
bojo may not refuse it, ergo we await his response
if bojo refuses but not in an official capacity, we may need to force an official reply eg the HOC votes against eg if a private members bill,
but need an official refusal to continue to the next stage
as to the legal right, lallans peatworrier has stated that this is unknown, the only way to find out is to go to court and get a judgement
this is the road we must follow.
that doesnt mean we cant talk tough, or walk the walk, i merely point out that all legal courses must be exhausted before one even suggests all out rebellion
until we lose, if we do, this is the path we must follow.
we will leave on jan31st but we still have 11 months in a transition period, by june we will know if we leave with no deal or not.
so march, greet, get drunk, swear loudly if you wish, but this is what is going to happen.
ps, many said nicola wouldnt request a s30 including stu. that has now happened
winifred mccartney says:
if only we had the press and media on our side… we dont and wont, but their power is waning
we have to find a way to counter this and get people roused from their zombie state……….. we have, sites like this and social media. we also have an army of footsoldiers to take the message to the door step. something the unionist fear greatly and can only dream about for their sside
Abulhaq says:
Scottish law is, whether it pleases or not, subordinate to the Law of England in affairs concerning……….
no disrespect, even if i think you may be right, the best legal mind we have in the yes campaign says the situation is unclear which only a legal judgement can clarify.
that doesnt mean we shouldnt legally challenge a bojo refusal for a s30 if it comes to that.
ammature legal speculation isnt helpful
The stance of the Brits right now is clearly that Scotland has no rights because Scotland doesn’t actually exist! It is a figment of our imagination. Scotland is really just North Britain and therefore has no legal standing.
An interesting notion.
Presumably, therefore, England doesn’t actually exist either and has no legal standing or rights. It is just South Britain and the name ‘England’ will no longer be used. EVEL will be SBvSBL. There will no longer be English people, just Brits.
Likewise, the Welsh.
And the Irish? How can Ireland exist? How did Ireland become independent if it didn’t actually exist? Something odd about this.
Or maybe England exists – and for some strange reason Ireland exists – but not Scotland or Wales. Maybe Scotland and Wales are actually English colonies, whereas Ireland was a colony but somehow became independent even though it didn’t exist and didn’t have any rights.
So if Scotland is an English colony that doesn’t exist how does it become independent? There have been many colonies that became independent. How did they become independent? What are the precedents?
This is all very confusing and needs clarification. Maybe Nicola is trying to find out so we know how we can proceed to be like Ireland and actually exist.
I hope a tiny smidgen more constitutional legal theory might be though.
Rethinking the boundaries of democratic secession: Liberalism, nationalism, and the right of minorities to self-determination
https://academic.oup.com/icon/article/6/3-4/553/654432?searchresult=1
Helpful that is, as is remembering the world is constantly moving even if you believe you aren’t.
@ Shrodingers cat and Arthur Thomson:
Maybe Scotland is Shrodingers also..
We exist, but do not exist at the same time?
Perhaps we have to wait for that day like in Brigadoon where we exist for a short period of time, then disappear again?
Stumped for an answer..
Thing that is missing in the blue book is the top 10 reasons for joining the uk.
So… Why join or stay with the UK in 2020?
No 1.
Join a country just found guilty of crimes against humanity for their expulsion of people from Diego Garcia, extraordinary rendition and renaging on decolinisation commitments… its a long, long list/
Ref: the English high court found their own government ‘repugnant’.
No 2.
Join a country that will put their chemical warefare experiments, nuclear waste, spent munitions and general waste around your shores. ref: anthrax island etc
No 3.
Nuclear weapons: Scotland will not be considered a population center and generally expendable. Whether we want it or not? Tough. There is no veto in the anglocentric UK system.
No 4. Energy
We get to provide all our resources to great benefit of our neighbor that has so few. The biggest provider of jobs in the UK will provide ( move )100000 Scottish oil related jobs to Greater London, that has no oil. source: oil and gas uk.
Electricity: We get the privilege of paying more for generation. There is no flat playing field in a UK rigged market.
Gas: 40 percent of UK GAS is shipped from Norway: Sleipner field to East England and we get to help pay for it but cannot consume a single therme.
All Energy policy, like every other policy, will be geared to SE England. AKA benefit only SE England.
etc…..
Shrodingers country?
In a shortbread tin..
Pete Barton says:
Shrodingers country?
In a shortbread tin..
from inside the box, the 11th dimensional probability waves will collapse into an absolute certainty of an independent scotland
As 2019 closes
This seems a sadly appropriate read.
(Spoiler alert. It ignores why- if you’re pissed off with austerity… you would vote for the austerity imposers)
My grandad hated Thatcher and the Tories. Here’s why he voted for Boris
http://archive.is/VGh1a
I’m not simply showing off here, but has anyone wondered what happens when you combine Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle with constitutional theory?
https://academic.oup.com/icon/article-pdf/10/1/69/2024301/mor056.pdf
At the cat: lol
Don’t forget the infinite improbability drive.
And how can a whale and a geranium in a plant pot coexist in the same space?
Answers on a postcard to Nicola.
Gawd knows, she could do with a good laugh.
@ Juteman
The original posters on here are mainly gone. Don’t worry, we still support independence. We aren’t going away, all you boys and girls at 77 brigade.
And how can a whale and a geranium in a plant pot coexist in the same space?
Answers on a postcard to Nicola.
actually Answers on a postcard to slabs dick leonard, he is both for and against keeping trident
I do miss some of the posters, yes..welcome the newer ones also.
Think of Stu though, all those years of graft, banging your head off a wall…
Must take its toll.
PS I was thinking of posters here who perhaps choose to disrupt.
And also, if those who’s job involves spreading a bit of FUD, ie fear uncertainty and doubt.
Think I’ve cracked HYFUD –
‘Here’s your FUD.’
Hats off to them, huzzah.. they’re only doing their job.
Meantime, it’s a dark old time, cold and wet.
Let’s not lose sight of what Bruce suffered from, that draining feeling of getting nowhere.
He didn’t buckle.
We shan’t, either.
@Juteman and Conan the Librarian –
There’s more of us ‘Auld Wingers’ about than folk realise.
Some of us have just run out of things to say or don’t feel like taking part in specific discussions.
And others are just having a wee rest…
😉
At the Cat: good pointer!
Maybe he wants to keep the nukes in a shortbread tin..so they can either exist or not, depending on who’s the boss at the time.
A rather silly position, Dick.
It’s a wee bit cringeworthy.
And many in Scotland see through it.
Conan the Librarian – Hi, nice to see you back. The Panda mentioned you were unwell, hope you’re OK now, or at least on the mend. 😉
A lot of the original posters are still here, just not commenting as everything is conjecture until something definite happens, such as Boris decisively saying NO to s30. At least then we should have an outline of the way forward, to get our teeth into.
At the end of the day, the likes of me and others on here who consider current SNP leadership policies for gaining independence to be flawed, unworkable or unimaginative, will never the less hold our noses and place an X in the box next to the SNP candidate every time.
We know full well that the SNP is the only vehicle for achieving our desired goal.
The trouble is, the SNP are acutely aware of that fact and, as with any monopoly, will act primarily in the best interests of the SNP.
So we’ll turn up for the marches, distribute the flyers, put our hands in our pockets and seek to persuade our friends, relatives and colleagues. But we’ll not stop criticising where it’s justified – we’re not in the realm of the Dear Leader! You only need look to the Labour Party to see how that ends.
@ Ian B.
Thanks, you’ve said it in a nutshell.
Maybe that’s the case for Stu also.
An uplfting result for Wings and Stu – from Stu’s non-banned twitter account:
‘I completely forgot to mention that this year Wings Over Scotland won a (worldwide) Best News Blog award:’
2019 Infinity Blog Awards
Gold Awards = Wings Over Scotland = Best News Blog. 🙂 🙂
Bet there’s much raging and gnashing of teeth over at ‘small’er sites.
dont know about all the other wingers but im very upbeat
we have crossed a red line
take heart
Fully agree with both @Dr Jim says at 3:44pm and @schrodingers cat says at 7:20 pm
We need to actively combat Jockholm Syndrome as per Dr Jim
The Cat is correct regarding red lines, especially BoJos GE WM majority and Brexit now unable to be stopped for the UK as a whole.
3 Years of stasis is going to be replaced with a very fluid and quick moving political landscape.
The momentum is with Indy and will continue to be so in 2020.
🙂
A bit more constitutional theory, an examination of the Scotland Act 1998.
Giving with one hand: Scottish devolution within a unitary state
https://academic.oup.com/icon/article/5/4/730/704291?searchresult=1
@ Shrodingers Cat.
I think Abulhaq, like many, confuse the constitutional imbalance( more English MP’s than Scots) with legal superiority. A country’s boundaries are defined by legal jurisdiction and Scots legal jurisdiction was unequivocally defined by the trial of the Lockerbie bomber under Scots law against stiff opposition from Westminster and the Whitehouse.
Conan the Librarian @ 18:48,
Like TJenny @ 19:19, good to see you back and hoping you’re fully recovered again.
And I’m still not showing off. IMHO, this answers the question re. Scotland’s position in union and the self-ID issue. Good law seeks to benefit position X in a given situation, without detriment to any other positions. As such, neither Brexit nor self-ID of sex can be considered good law. Empowering English nationalism in order to satisfying the cultural demands of structural euroskepticism, whilst subordinating Scotland’s legal identity to the status of ‘silent partner’, does not appear particularly proportionate to me.
Constitutional Rights and Proportionality
https://journals.openedition.org/revus/2783
schrodingers cat @ 19:20,
True, a lot of uncertainty has been wiped away now – UKGE gone, prospect of EURef2 gone – so nothing now to get in the way.
We just need visible signs of progress – and accompanying signs of serious intent – to keep the fires burning.
By our own proactive efforts, this new year could and should be the most interesting one yet!
I know the EU Commissioner for Human Rights has bought in to believing gender ideology and the fantasy of humans being able to actually change sex, but that is the situation western democracy finds itself in.
Now I’m showing off. 🙂
For a truly realistic theory of law
https://journals.openedition.org/revus/3624
Robert J. Sutherland says:
True, a lot of uncertainty has been wiped away now – UKGE gone, prospect of EURef2 gone – so nothing now to get in the way.
We just need visible signs of progress
———–
what, you mean like an opinion pol rjs? 🙂
Probably wont post much more on here. Supposedly in chess a master can win a game long before the novice can begin to realise it. Judging by what im hearing and seeing the game was lost somewhere between summer 2016 and now. It just has not played out yet. The reasons are many and lengthy and I cant be arsed. As usual the biggest enemy of the Scots are those who would suppose to lead them. Cheers.
Joe.
You’re a pussy.
The Biggest Enemy if Scotland is Westminster.
Up until 1945 it was the German Right Wing Extremists
Then there was a lull until Thatcher, Blair and Boris came along.
UK Media is the modern day SS.
Joe
It’s been a blast. 😉
I really need to stay away from some SNP elected representatives twitter feeds, the oozing arrogance is just soul destroying, it’s like an influx from those that would once have been New Labour have infected the party.
It would seem the lack of progress is down to the paucity of effort from activists, from that I would presume the elected representatives are just there to collect the salaries while others do the leg work.
I probably reaching the limit of some folk’s patience, but there’s not much point in leaving a job half done, IMHO.
Beyond the Separability Thesis: Moral Semantics and the Methodology of Jurisprudence
https://academic.oup.com/ojls/article/27/4/581/1459911
schrodingers cat @ 20:32,
Touché! Heh, heh.
(But as I have said more than once, absent something considerably more startling on the public stage, you’ll die waiting for any change in that, alas.)
lol @rjs
have you noticed
tonight, real wingers showed up
the trolls are very quiet 🙂
we are winning
when it matters
we will be there
all the best in 2020 to you and all of mes amis
Good to see you posting again, CameronB, Conan the Librarian
Has everyone read this demolition of GERS? https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/12/30/its-time-for-gers-to-go/
“Let’s not lose sight of what Bruce suffered from, that draining feeling of getting nowhere.
He didn’t buckle.
We shan’t, either.”
Well said, Pete Barton
oh, Joe,
please, please, please review the word ‘probably’?
where’s your conviction man?? – or are you just another weaselly mouthed pawn – be a man of conviction!
schrodingers cat @ 22:06:
Likewise.
Here’s to more bons amis and less trolls and moaners!
Robert J. Sutherland says:
Here’s to more bons amis and less trolls and moaners!
hear hear
I also hope that stu campbell re finds his mojo in 2020
we need him
Stop resting on old laurels Stu
That is old news
You have done nothing useful since before the last fund raiser
get back to work FFS
The SNP most certainly appear to have become the establishment party of devolution.
At present they are the only show in town. But it does not need to be like that and things can change. A list party as proposed by the Rev could certainly improve the vote. It would also however be an influence on the time servers who now have more interest in devolution than independence.
What not to like unless you are an SNP jobs worth at odds with the core ideals of a fully independent parliament.
And yes, the time for a new list party is now. Time to give the SNP leadership some help as we move through 2020 and on to 2021.
Here’s food for thought in how times have changed.
Been watching the Kristine Keeler drama on TV. I remember the Profumo affair, my parents talking in hushed tones about impropriety.
On 5 June 1963 John Dennis Profumo, Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, admitted that he had committed an unforgivable crime …. he had lied to the House of Commons. His political career was over and he spent the rest of his life doing charity work.
Changed days indeed.
Education, education, education – as always, is the key. Kinda begs the question why they haven’t bothered their arse before now ……
Cadogen
Enright
F
U
C
K
T
H
E
F
U
C
K
O
F
F
You couldn’ae lace the Revs boots
cirsium
Thanks. I’ve not looked at the law for a very long time, and its been a blast. For me anyway. 🙂
https://pennjil.com/the-uks-uncodified-constitution-parliamentary-sovereignty-and-the-rise-of-common-law-constitutionalism/
Hi Conan the Librarian – I hope you are well. Great to see an old voice reappearing. The threads are a bit ragged ATM. Once Stu returns to campaigning – soon I hope – things should REV up.
@ Stu – Congratulations on winning the Best News Blog 2019.
I’m also an old “regular”, long since given up on even looking in on here.
@K1
What a breath of fresh air your post on the state of Stu and WoS. You posted what I’m too scared or just too pissed off to post. Twitter is much the same. Daily fucking bickering, latest being some diva strop about which band is at the front of the 11 Jan AUOB march.
When I’m pissed off or despondent, I just don’t post it, it doesn’t help. But everyone has to scream about their latest dire thoughts on who in SNP is selling us out.
It’s unbelievable. This is ours to lose now and it looks like there’s plenty voices ensuring that happens.
Can’t tell you how disappointed I am in Wings.
Great post from “Dr.Jim” @ 0344pm . How ironic that the very piece of apparatus invented by a Scot , has been “ weaponised” by the “ English ruling class” and provides them with the means for 24 hour nonstop political and cultural “ brainwashing” of their “ North British target audience” . From “ South British news & sports output” , “ South British ( Victorian ? I wonder why? Drama), South British soaps, talent shows , bake offs , game shows, etc etc . You name it , the Britnat state propaganda is continuous and unrelenting and is designed as so , to minimise and marginalise all “ North British “ cultural identity. Add on the Britnat stranglehold on “ Newspapers” and thus as Dr. Jim “ concludes :
“ If you don’t call that the brainwashing of people on a massive scale, to get people to believe that a country that is swimming in oil ,yet will be poorer if you Divorce yourself from the country next door
who are taking every drop of the stuff and spending it on anything they want .
That is the success of England’s ruling classes.
We would all be speaking German had it not been for them they tell us . Well we are speaking “ English” aren’t we ??
The Declaration of Arbroath is a declaration of Scottish independence signed by 48 prominent Scots and submitted to Pope John XXII, dated 6 April 1320,
6 April 2020 Nicola should send a letter to United Nations signed by 48 Scots MPs declaring Scottish independence and an annulment to the Treaty of Union.
I think we all really need to calm down and trust the leadership.
Scot Finlayson – Ooh, would that be synergy?
Thanks for the good wishes everyone, genuinely touched.
Conan the Librarian – We Wingers, eh, whit are we like? Vile, obviously. 😉
Not sure if already posted
https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/the-scottish-people-vs-the-uk/
https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-right-choose-putting-scotlands-future-scotlands-hands/pages/1/
Step thru links tells the story.
Valerie
well fuck off then, Scotland won’t be won by weaklings
I for one am fed up with whinging lefties thinking they are running the Independence campaign.
There are plenty other sites for that nonsense
@ T Jenny,
serendipity 🙂
Good to see you again Valerie, I hope you’re well
Valerie 🙂
Scot Finlayson – Ah, but this is more a happy coincidence than a happy accident. Mibbee deus ex machina?
ahundredthidiot @ 12:59,
I think her point was exactly the opposite, ie. to restrain oneself from public self-indulgence of a negative kind, but you seem to have entirely missed it.
Then just for good measure, added your own whinge on top.
Truly you are the living proof of nominitive determinism.
Jim @ 3.44 pm
A cry from the heart born of the failure of many fellow Scots to see and understand what is in front of their eyes.
For several centuries our nation has been shafted by a corrupt and venal neighbour who has exacted political control over every facet of our lives, all directed towards their own financial betterment. In recent years, as access to factual information has become available to the masses, they have used deceit, lies and manipulation of virtually all the print and broadcasting media to keep the Scots confused and subjugated.
God knows what we might have achieved if we had not been fettered by this unequal treaty. If the Age of Enlightenment had occurred in an independent Scotland imagine the benefits to our country of the explosion in – to quote Wikipedia – philosophy, political economy, engineering, architecture, medicine, geology, archaeology, botany and zoology, law, agriculture, chemistry and sociology. The benefits of all these new ideas, discoveries and inventions by Scots were subsumed by the great Brutish Empire at the same time as they engineered forced evictions throughout the Highlands and the Western Islands for the commercial gain of rich land owners resulting in a catastrophic depopulation of those areas which has had long lasting effects. In 1707 Scotland had a population of 1 million and England 5.5 million, a ratio of 1:5.5. Today Scotland has a population of 5.4 million and England 56 million, a ratio of 1:10.4. The figures speak for themselves.
We have a land rich in natural resources which has been bled for centuries for the good of the English establishment. Much of our land has been depopulated and deforested for the sole use of the super rich from south of the border. Most of our key industries have been deliberately decimated and our taxes have been used to finance infrastructure in London and the South East whilst we have been left to wither, starved of investment. To add insult to injury the UK nuclear base has been sited within 30 miles of our largest city with the potential to wipe out the whole central belt of Scotland in the event of an accident or nuclear attack. We are obviously expendable as well as stupid.
Until the early 1900s annual figures were produced showing a large outflow of money from Scotland to the rest of the UK. The production of these figures then ceased, probably to avoid exciting the natives. In 1992 the first of the GERS reports was published. This was a wheeze by Ian Lang the Tory secretary of State for Scotland at that time for solely political purposes as later evidenced by a leaked memo. Gers is clearly a biased and deliberately inaccurate construct designed to suppress Scottish aspirations for independence. The best way to project how an independent Scotland might have performed is to compare our current living standards, pensions etc with those of similarly sized developed nations in Europe. Eire, Norway, Switzerland spring to mind and only Norway of these has equivalent natural resources to Scotland. That comparison shows we are well behind despite our natural advantages.
Norway, a nation of similar size and natural assets currently has a sovereign wealth fund of over £750 billion which is the largest in the world and includes 1.5% of all global stocks and shares. Whereas, if you are to believe Westminster, Scotland currently has no wealth fund and instead has a a share of UK debt which is equivalent to around £150 billion for Scotland alone.
It is obvious that since 1707 our wealth has been siphoned off. The cumulative effect of this has been severe and has greatly impacted on the health and wellbeing of many generations of our nation. These are the “benefits” of our union with a corrupt vampire state. As I have said on here several times, people who vote for unionist parties either have their noses in the trough or are just plain stupid.
@Defo
“Does being a party member make you more Scottish than the rest of us?”
Definitely not. I’ve never been a member of any political party, and never will. That’s my choice, and if a party does well, I’ll never get to share in the credit or glory. It’s a small price to pay for not being tied to a party line.
Independence can be a frame of mind, as well as a national objective. Each to their own.
@Others
50% + 1 vote wins it. When the majority of Scots vote for Indy, it’ll be a lot more, but that’s the line of decision for either result.
Keep in mind that to get 50% + 1 or more, it WILL be a majority of Scots, as a majority of Scots voted Aye last time.
@Willie
“A list party as proposed by the Rev could certainly improve the vote. It would also however be an influence on the time servers who now have more interest in devolution than independence.”
Indeed.
One other benefit. It will do many Unionist list politicians out of a job, and take away more voices saying “no we canny” in Holyrood. With an Indy majority of 5-10, it’s an even level of noise if the non-Gov MSPs join for a murmur.
If a list party increases the majority to 20-30 or more, it’ll be a quiet place, and those that are left will have to jump up and down like wallopers to get heard. Always a nice look for the meeja.
My only fear is getting list party MSPs along the lines of far-left eejits that will make their little left-wing project more important than Indy (we all know a story like that). Whatever form a list party takes, they should support the SNP as a voting block on all things Indy, and maybe consider abstention the rest of the time, unless voting for obvious benefit of Scotland.
That there is only one ‘nationalist’ party in Scotland is rather unusual. The Catalans have four independentist parties of a variety of political colours and sympathies.
It would not be unreasonable, or counter-independence for that matter, if alternatives were presented to the Scottish electorate, the SNP having deposited issues into the frame that are controversial and rather off-message.
A fresh new party, or parties, that stuck unashamedly to the nationalist urtext might restore the fizz to an ageing cause experiencing diminishing verve.
While I’d be quite happy for a Second,Third or Fourth Indy party to emerge to mop up list seats…. I’m trying to think farther ahead.
After the YES vote the politicians are going to be dividing up the Assets and Liabilities of the Union.
Who here wouldn’t want to watch a live stream of the discussions?
Who doesn’t want to know the correct state of their countries wealth?
What’s Scotland’s share of the Treasure held in Trust for the Nation by the Windsors?
What we let go and what we stood our ground on and why.
But
Westminster will never agree to that for many reasons,the main one being that they won’t want their own voter’s having such information.
Right now all we have is the SNP,all the British Nationalist Parties and so called Civic Scotland to meet and decide not just about our wealth but also what we must be told about the deal,and we’d be informed of it by the very same media we currently have!
I’d like a bit of transparency.
I’d like to know what was discussed and in who’s interests?
I pretty much want Wings in that room..
And blogging about it afterwards!
He works for no one but us!
He could have a manifesto commitment to not be bound by any confidentiality agreements,that he won’t be bound to keep their secrets on the instructions of the Sovereign People of Scotland.
We could vote him into the room ( if he’s willing obviously ) as one of the first benefits of bringing yer Government with in slapping distance!!!!
And if anyone can think of anyone better,to tell us what went on then….
I’m all ears??
ahundredthidiot says:
31 December, 2019 at 12:59 am
Valerie
well fuck off then, Scotland won’t be won by weaklings
What are you proposing, armed struggle? You are a special kind of stupid, the independence movement certainly does not need aggressive idiots like you.
We will be fast tracked into the EU, but we need to win indy first.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18129254.brexit-independent-scotland-fast-tracked-eu/
The Scottish goverment spends over £100 million a year mitigating nasty Tory government policies. In a independent Scotland the money could be used for something else.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18128539.scottish-government-spent-100m-mitigate-tory-austerity-year/
Hope everyone has a great Hogmanay. Spare a thought for the peeps in Oz doing it tough with the fires. I would love nothing more than to come home to live in Scotland that is independent. Let’s do what they did 100 years ago and give the Uk a big fuck off we’re governing ourselves!!! We need to assert ourselves this year, play hard ball and dig deep. The aussies that I knew found the the 2014 result a head-scratcher at best or that we’d down right bottled it at worst. Wasn’t a time to feel proud to be Scottish . This needs to be the year that the SNP get a grip of things coz by god the grassroots have done all the heavy lifting these last few years and for that am brining with pride for each and every one of you. Let’s hope 2020 is the year of the brave. Much love
Cheers Brexiteers…
https://twitter.com/Chantepoule/status/1211388638698901506
Elmac at 3:05 a.m.
“…people who vote for unionist parties either have their noses in the trough or are just plain stupid.”
I agree with almost everything you say in your post except that last point. The people who vote for the unionist parties are the people we need to persuade to vote for independence. As a tactic, how effective do you think it will be to call them troughers or stupid?
“You are really unintelligent or are a bad person exploiting the system for your own gain. So for those reasons, I hope you will vote for me.” Really?
We need to move beyond insulting people who disagree with us. The people who vote against us are the people we need to persuade. We will never do that by calling everyone who currently disagrees with us stupid.
Republicofscotland says:
31 December, 2019 at 10:09 am
We will be fast tracked into the EU, but we need to win indy first.
Very interesting that only a majority of EU 27 are required to agree to admission of a new EU member state.
So all the pish about a possible Spanish veto appears to be just more british lies.
Much muttering in the hollows about this and that which the SNP is or aint doing right. Wee daft hints about getting the claymores out of the thatch. Why do I think that these dark thoughts from supposed tough guys emanate from a 77 Brigade green ink algorithm ?
The SNP is currently the only game in town so stop snitching their poker hand to the other side.OK I do not like the Braveheart “HOLD” much either but sure as hell any alternative will not be seen in my lifetime. A lifetime working toward independence.
TD @ 11.08 am
You are right of course. I think I worked myself into a late night frenzy and gave into exasperation at the end!
@ScotsRenewables
Sturgeon keeps saying that an agreed legal referendum is the only way forward. So the only possible Plan B will be to court of whether S30 in 2012 was still in force.
It is possible as others have said that she will call a referendum under the assumption that that S30 is still in force and leave it up to WM or perhaps the Unionist up here to take that to court and be seen to stymie the self detrmination right of Scotland.
We can only hope that johnson And/Or his advisers and CC’s will know this and will grant a new one to avoid that but the only indication that might be is Johnson instead of a formal ‘No’ has said they will ‘carefully consider the request’. Though it may just be a kick iinto the longish grass waiting until after Jan30 and Brexit in the hope that in all the chaos and panic it will be forgotten about.
This is pretty much the only hope which is preventing me from going back to live in the small independent country with a vibrant democracy mentioned above which I have citizenship of.
I really, really wish to help Scotland achieve Independence after working so much to that end in the last indyref. But if Mike Russell is indeed in expectations managment mode for the party in the expectation of a firm ‘No’ and then they have no idea how to proceed then I will despair, sell up and leave you all to it.
What the SNP and their defiance of normal political gravity forget is firstly that every month new electors come of age who have no memory of any government in Scotland other than the SNP. It is natural for the young to view the incumbent government as the source of their problems and frustrations and seek to change it. We cannot just assume that the desire for independence and EU membership will trump this in the young and keep them in the fold. That route is dangerous.
Secondly I fully expect this Tory Govt to destroy Devolution by a thousand cuts until enough ignorant people blame Holyrood for the inevitable painful cuts or they are bled from so many powers that they just become what they were called by the opponents back in the early days ‘an expensive extra talking shop’. There have been a number of Tory MPs urging that process. They may gain public office or enough influence to implement it.
Remember when the Eurosceptics were a small minority in the Tory Party? Assuming the status quo in pretty much anything is dangerous in these days. All is change, all is in flux and we may get swept away in the flood.
Thus the need is urgent to avoid all these possibles.
Arthur Thomson opened his Post at 5:51 pm yesterday:
“The stance of the Brits right now is clearly that Scotland has no rights because Scotland doesn’t actually exist!…”
Here is our former illustrious Secretary of State for Scotland David Mundell MP back in 2013 on the Telly confirming
https://tinyurl.com/h2uqfur
Dan 10.43
Is that Diageo story not old news?
April 2017
Diageo in union row over ‘Brexit’ job losses in Scotland
http://archive.is/i8KJi
July 2019
Diageo CEO: We can handle a no-deal Brexit
http://archive.is/7f2cM
Anyone know if the Holyrood Referendum Legislation has received Royal Assent Yet?
@mike cassidy at 11:32 am
Old news or not, the reality of UK leaving the EU is now beginning to bite hard on businesses and their employees.
Diageo is a big company so no doubt they’re in a position to benefit from this.
However other smaller companies and businesses aren’t in such a fortunate position.
I’ve spoken with quite a few different businesses in recent years and some rely on imported products from all over the EU to build their products.
Earlier this year I spoke to one and they hadn’t had the time, money, or resources to investigate the numerous complex aspects that will affect their livelyhoods in whatever form the UK leaving the EU finally takes.
I posted links earlier in thread to seafood industry concerns.
This is happening now with real people losing their jobs and the inevitable negative consequences that will entail for businesses, individuals, families, communities.
Fuckers talking about the markets being buoyant so their shares are performing well can go and do one as clearly they put their own lacking in empathy self interest over that of the less fortunate.
Dan
Just announced that UK unemployment at record low with employment at record high.
Economic forecasts from most established sources show growth increasing in 2020.
I’m afraid you need to get out into the real world.
I thought we were going to lose 100k jobs as per NS?
@ Liz g.
Pretty much the way I’m thinking as well Liz. Westminster have a lot to hide, as much from the English as the Scots. The big question will be, where has all the money gone(historically)? who spent it and on what? because they sure as hell haven’t spent it on the people of the UK. Lowest pensions, shit benifits, the gap between rich and poor widening by the minute.
They’ll try and bluff this out, which is why we should get to decide on whether the deal is acceptable or not.
The oil companies in particular should be brought into Holyrood, and made to explain what kind of deals they made with the UK treasury and they better come up honest answers if they want to hold on to even a share of Scottish assets.
Oh, ffs, I see Pete is still trolling here. Defending the Tory decade of record debt and deaths directly attributable to Tory ideology.
It’s probably no coincidence either that in the last week the pack of UK attack dogs of Deerin, Massey, Martin, Rentoul are all posting their sneering drivel, unchallenged.
To think we used to have a site and journalist who, with precision and calm, shredded their lies, for us to recommend and disseminate.
Yoons only had to wait for their prize.
Golfnut@12.22
Where did our oil revenues go?
Well, the greatest amount, many billions, was spent by the Tory Government cutting the highest rate of tax from 60% to 40%. Obviously this benefitted the richest in the land. If you earned £100,000 it was worth £12,000 to you.
The result of this cut was the galloping inflation in the 1980s which wiped out any benefits to the poorer members of society. In other words the revenues were wasted except for a few rich people.
Don’t blame the oil companies. They just produce the oil, take the risks and pay what the government demands.
The U.K. government on the other hand, unlike the Norwegians, are totally incapable of investing for the future. The Norwegians have produced similar amounts of oil as Scotland but they choose to spend no more than 6% of revenues annually. The result is they are the world’s wealthiest country and have investments of two trillion dollars.
I’m in a reflective mood as it’s fast approaching the end of the decade.
One of my reflections:
Jacob Rees-Mogg Tory MP for North East Somerset, visits Scotland.
Don’t panic Scotland’s Yoons—-it was in 2014.
“…the English need Scotland and to ask them to stay because they’re wanted and because they’re needed…”
Channel 4 News
YouTube. 8 minutes.
https://tinyurl.com/vq2dhvm
fireproofin re oil – here’s the US equivalent to the McCrone report. https://archive.org/details/DTIC_ADA510065
“DTIC ADA510065: North European Oil: Implications for NATO Nations” from 1976
Jack Murphy says:
31 December, 2019 at 11:29 am
Arthur Thomson opened his Post at 5:51 pm yesterday:
“The stance of the Brits right now is clearly that Scotland has no rights because Scotland doesn’t actually exist!…”
That’s the whole point Jack. The very essence of sovereignty.
If Westminster does promote the argument that Scotland doesn’t exist, then it has to account for Scotland having a recognised territory and border. It has to resolve the paradox of a country which doesn’t exist having it’s own legal system, institutions, national identity, national flag, and centuries of unqualified and undisputed international recognition.
In short, it has a dilemma. If it cannot erase Scotland from history, which it cannot, it must account for the change of status from where Scotland was an independent Nation where it’s people were sovereign, and recognised by the dowager Queen Isabella of England for all time in the 1328 Treaty of Northampton/ Edinburgh. “that Scotland, so defined, “shall belong to our dearest ally and friend, the magnificent prince, Lord Robert, by God’s grace illustrious King of Scotland, and to his heirs and successors, separate in all things from the kingdom of England, whole, free, and undisturbed in perpetuity, without any kind of subjection, service, claim or demand. … and account for Scotland’s erasure as a sovereign entity transformed into a subjugated anonymity.
That change of status did not occur through the 1707 Treaty of Union, because that Treaty was damned by it’s own text, a Treaty between Constitutional equals, a bilateral political Treaty of dubious integrity and corrupt foundation… which DID NOT render Scotland extinct, and nor did it render Scotland the Constitutional inferior of England.
For the Westminster assertion that Scotland doesn’t exist to stand, Westminster should be challenged to prove how and when this remarkable existential transformation was achieved, and then they must reconcile the Claim of Right, on it’s own Parliamentary statute, which acknowledges the people of Scotland are sovereign.
Almost as objectionable and ill-founded as Westminster’s claim that Scotland doesn’t exist, is our Scottish Government’s acquiescence to the Westminster narrative and the supporting argument that only democracy can free us. It simply isn’t true. We MUST dispute the prevailing assertions, and it must be a proactive endeavour. Nobody will do it for us.
If Scotland can demolish and discredit the lies, misrepresentation and Constitutional validity of the 1707 Union, then the Union will cease to exist and both Scotland and England will revert to the Sovereign Nations and Constitutional Equals which they were before the Union. There is no constitutional merit to either Nation being Continuer State or Successor State. We “joined” as equals, and when the Union is dissolved, we will part company as equals.
The Union of the United Kingdom is hanging by a thread, but that thread shouldn’t be underestimated because that thread is the strength of Westminster’s bluster and perfidious narrative which purports to be the truth, but it has held sway and enjoyed conventional recognition for more than three centuries.
The greatest disservice we can do to our Scottish Nation is to abandon our Scottish Constitution and be pushed off our mark by the corrupt guile and distortion of reality that has been pedalled for over 300 years and been indoctrinated into our psyche ever since.
When you see it, when you think it, when the penny drops, you will understand my gnawing resentment of prevailing SNP strategy which is leaving Scotland defenceless and stripped of it’s Constitutional potency. The SNP should be bent double trying to assert Scotland’s sovereign integrity, not flattering Westminster’s distortion of reality that we are impotent without a vote, which they must concede to allow us.
The SNP is playing a very dangerous game, and while I make no claims to be an expert about anything, their strategy to my powers of reasoning is unfathomable and profoundly worrying. Never once has any SNP Advocate or spokesperson sought to allay any one of those fears, not one! They simply criticise and condemn me for expressing them, and then off course, demand my vote.
Who else you gonna vote for? … Ask the people who’s political strategy is directly responsible for making my vote worthless and irrelevant, and detached from our sovereign birthright. Vote for you??? I could punch you.
Valerie
Yes, we have record debt but the deficit has been greatly reduced making the debt much more manageable.
After the ‘crash’ , with the banks (predominantly Scottish) having to be bailed out, it was inevitable that austerity was required.
This is now being relaxed somewhat.
Regarding deficits and debt I thought that the Growth Commission and Murphy, even more so, was advocating an iScotland to run a substantial deficit, and therefore DEBT, in the short to medium term.
I think you are stuck in a Socialist time warp.
@Breeks –
Hear hear.
(A new post has just gone up so I hope you’ll consider re-posting that comment later.)
😉
Liz g
No, it’s only been passed by the SP and the latest report from 19/12/2019 said the Presiding Office will send it for Royal Assent.
Who’s up for having the whole union declared illegal due to bribery and corruption?
Is there actual documentary proof?
Also, that the Parliament of Scotland was never dissolved ( except by Royal Proclamation) so that was also done unlawfully?
Eg similar to the BJ prorogation of UK Parliament by Queen.
Usual “ doom & gloom “ from Pathetic Propaganda Quay lunch time “ news” . Only they can portray the wonderful Hogmanay spectacular in our capital as “ anti tourist”? Followed by of course the “ usual” anti NHS “ bulletin” . Doing Scotland down at every opportunity. “ Bought& sold for BBC Britnat gold”.
“I think we all really need to calm down and trust the leadership.”
You can if you like.
Colin Alexander @ 1.21
Cheers for that Colin 🙂
@ Fireproofing.
My point exactly, the only issue is how much. Which brings me to your assertion ‘ don’t blame the oil companies’, I’m afraid the oil companies are complicit in hiding the full extent of the oil revenue generated through extraction. The McCrone report was hidden for a reason, nor was the setting up of Ex regio status for the fields a mear whim.
@breeks.
Brilliant post.
Rubbish Pete. Stick your old lies! The two biggest bail-outs were of Barclays and HSBC and the bail outs of the so-called Scottish banks was because 90% of their debt was run up in England. To hell with you and your false facts – when will we get back what Englan/UK stole from us? We all know the answer like all the other countries the British stole from —– NEVER!!! Pleasr bugger off!
Pete says: at 12:15 pm
“Dan…I’m afraid you need to get out into the real world.”
LOL I half knew Pete would bite.
I’ve limited time now as about to head out for Hogmanay after spending the afternoon doing one of those amazingly unlucrative runs over the border to England to procure my drink for New Year…
You spout your UK wide figures which mask the reality of what is actually occurring to the real people and businesses in the smaller regional / local areas that I’ve spoken to over the past few years.
There are plenty more examples of the significant negative effects our Scottish society is suffering due to being taken out of the EU against our will.
FYI I spend nearly all my time out there in the real world meeting new people on a virtually daily basis, so you may want to reel in your derogatory and dismissive attitude a tad.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
“I think we all really need to calm down and trust the leadership.”
You can if you like.
then you lead stu!
its what you’re good at
who else?
I neglected to say earlier…. but I had meant to add, that Westminster cannot deny the existence of Scotland and promote the unitary nature of a “one Nation UK” while at the same time promoting EVEL, English Votes for English Laws…
EVEL is yet another irrefutable admission from Westminster that the component entities of the United Kingdom absolutely DO exist, and asserting they do not is BritNat sophistry wilfully designed to dupe, misrepresent a known truth, and mislead opinion in Scotland and abroad.