A gun to Govan’s head
We don’t normally post if we’re just repeating another publication’s article and don’t have anything to add to it, or if there aren’t mistruths in it that need correcting. Simply spreading existing news wider is what Twitter is for.
But we’ll make an exception for this extraordinary piece from the Evening Times.
If you’re re-reading that to make sure it says what you think it says, let us help. Ian Davidson, Labour MP for Govan (and some other desperately poor parts of Glasgow) has just called on the UK government to make thousands of his own constituents redundant if Scotland votes for independence.
We went over the quotes carefully several times ourselves to see if the Evening Times was just sensationalising a comment that had only actually suggested such a thing might happen. But there’s no mistaking, no confusion, no misrepresentation. Davidson has clearly and specifically demanded that the contract be awarded, and then taken away as punishment if Scots vote Yes.
It’s naked blackmail. It’s a hostage situation. “Vote No or we’ll make thousands of Glaswegians suffer”. As a strategy it’s so crass and vulgar we don’t think even the Tories will fall for it. But it’s not exactly news.
Davidson, after all, is the man who produced this leaflet earlier in the year:
If there was ever a clearer representation that Labour see the people of Scotland not as constituents to be represented but as tools by which Labour can achieve personal power, we’d like to see it. Ian Davidson has a very cushy number at Westminster, with no actual responsibility but a salary bolstered by bountiful expenses and a five-figure bonus for chairing a select committee pumping out propaganda even the Commons finds a bit too crude about how Scotland is too feeble to survive as a country.
And woe betide anyone who puts that tasty £102,000 a year at risk. If Scotland puts Ian Davidson out of a job by voting Yes, he’s determined to take thousands of his own constituents down with him. Now that’s a man of the people.
I am surprised he hasn’t said that the workers in the Yard will be bayoneted, pour encourager les autres,
Preparing to give his constituents a doing.
If ever there was a good case for a recall of MP’s by constituents, this is it!
All this stuff spewing from Davidson’s mouth, lets Govan know just how big a turd he is. Labour at it’s best.
Ian Davidson makes me feel physically sick! Such an odious little man. How anyone can vote for this little cretin is beyond my feeble understanding.
Och now you’ve just got me all riled up for the rest of the day. And me wi’ a stinking cold tae. Hope you’re satisfied. I’m off to mainline Lemsip and hope the image of that purse-lipped wee **!!#??*#!! gets oot ma heid.
Perhaps the people that voted for this ‘man’ will think again next
time round.
Although, I doubt it. See Dunfermline for precedent.
We really have seen the 2 faces of Labour in the past couple of days. The dignified interview with Charles Gray and the ranting right wing MP Ian Davidson.
Surely its only a matter of time before more and more in the Labour party see that they can remain in the Labour party and hold views like those of Charles Gray and distance themselves from those like Davidson who see the party as a meal ticket and if he stayed in the south of England would just as easily fit as a Tory MP.
I can’t believe that leaflet actually says doom and gloom (well, the sad thing is that I can).
What a dreadful little thug he is.
I suspect that, if made redundant by independence, he would struggle to get a job at a fifth of his present salary, never mind the outrageous expenses.
That is what Ian Davidson is fighting for. Ian Davidson.
What is that phrase again something like “lower than a snake’s belly”
Scandalous plain and simple!
I hope that this statement by Davidson gets well and truly trashed and circulated.
I don’t doubt however that “the party faithful” will believe him and see this as a reason to vote no.
Davidson giving us a taste of cold steel in so many ways.
If your reading this over your subsidised cornflakes in your comfortably warm house, heating on expenses, Ian Davidson i can only say this. I am in your electorate. I will never vote for you, I am voting yes to independence and one of my reasons for doing so is to see self serving people like you out of a job.
BTW can anybody else confirm that the Union flag flying at the entrance to BAE Govan is a relatively new edition?
On the 18th September next year, I can picture Ian Davidson going round houses in Govan with a baseball bat, saying “you’d better no be votin’ fur sepurashun, or I’ll gie you a doin’ – no in the sexual sense, obviously.” Cue a lot of people with broken legs crawling to the polling stations to mark an X in the Yes box.
He also seems to be claiming more for the electricty than anyone else.
What the hell is he running at home?
link to twitter.com
The man is a coward (running away from bedroom tax protestors), a bully (his disgraceful attacks on Isobel Fraser) and an ignoramus (virtually every utterance he has made during his entire political career).
And yet (with honourable exceptions like Charles Gray) ‘decent’ Labour representatives like Henry McLeish and Malcolm Chisholm seem content to allow people like Davidson to hog the megaphone. Can they let this continue?
If we look back there is a history of this blind Unionist hatred in Northern Ireland.
Was this article printed without comment by the editor of the Evening Times? Will the main news print or TV make comment?
Or will they continue their dumb, rabbits-in-the-headlights, course of no-action?
No answer needed really. Stupidity mixed with collusion is the order of the day.
Rod Mac:
‘Wi a tile hat oan’ ……………as in crawl under.
The dignified interview with Charles Gray and the ranting right wing MP Ian Davidson.
It should be noted in his debate with Dennis Canavan last week on STV….Ian Davidson cited Strathclyde Regional Council in the 1980’s as an example of why we didn’t need independence….’to make life better for the people’ or words to that effect.
That would be the Strathclyde Regional Council lead by Charles Gray…..who on the same show a week later said thats exactly why we need independence.
Even the folk he uses as arguments against ‘Sepurrashun’ are turning on him
The only trouble is that BAE have already met with MoD officials in October to decide the fate of the shipyards in Scotland – Scotstoun will be saved but Govan will be no more.
So the provision that Ian Davidson calls for is meaningless. It matters not if Scots vote YES or NO – Govan’s fate has already been decided by Westminster, an institution that Davidson declared he has full faith in.
Ian Davidson better be prepared for this event because there will thousands asking what he had done to save Govan shipyard from closure.
Rod Mac
Aye – he could crawl under a snakes belly wis a top hat on.
🙂
g.p
Sorry – beat to it!
I think this coupled by the controlled statement by Charles Gray is the beginning of the end of labour in Scotland.
The press as always will ignore this act of bastardry. I’m convinced that this will reverberate long and hard by word of mouth around the labour rank and file. This is a massive own goal by the intellectual pygmy who gets paid £102,000 to devise ways of putting his constituents on the dole. I’ve flushed better down the loo.
With the rise of Scottish Labour for Independence and more respected people like Charles Gray coming out in favour of a YES vote, it is only a matter of time before the likes of Davidson and Darling are seen truly for the loonie self-interested fringe they belong to.
Deliberately threatening peoples livelihoods if they don’t vote the way that scumbag wants is a very dangerous thing to do, this idiot obviously thinks he can treat the people any way he wants without repercussions, it’s a very dangerous game to play,
Bought and Sold, this man does not represent Scotland in any shape or form, WTF were the good people of Govan thinking about when they elected this imbecile, as we can all see he realty does have the best interests of the workers at heart…….NOT !!
People of Scotland, please wake up, vote yes next year and once and for all we can purge the puss from this Unionist boil that has blighted Scotland for 300 years, no more Ian Davidson and his ilk, what a great opportunity for us all a yes vote will be.
Is there any sign that the MOD are delaying awarding of this contract?
Just last week a 4 year contract was awarded by the MOD to another manufacturor for defence products made in Scotland
As long as when they take their MOD orders back they also take the useless and often hate filled Labour, Tory and Liberal MP’s as well, They may have a need for them cause we sure won’t.
I think that would be a fair trade. (Oh and keep the bloody peers as well !)
Whatever next from this mentally challenged wee man?
Bomb Glasgow airport?
On a purely practical note, I can’t see BAE Systems agreeing to such a clause. Portsmouth simply doesn’t have the capacity to take on all of the work on it’s own.
Come on Henry M – nows the time and nows the hour !!
My ex-Royal Navy husband believes Scotland’s ship-yards would be revitalised with independence. We could compete for contracts on a level playing field. Yes, please!
The contraction of the Scottish shipbuilding industry from scores of yards and ten of thousands of workers to a situation where we have two BAE yards and one small independent yard and around 3000 employees, has taken place under the Union. BAE seems totally disinterested and incapable of seeking non- Royal Navy work, and as the navy contracts, this work contracts also. This is not a future.
We’ve got to get the message across that only with independence can we rebuild a diversified and successful shipbuilding industry. The world still needs ships, it’s just that we’re not building them. There is no long term future in waiting for orders from a small and contracting Royal Navy.
From Business for Scotland after the Hammond visit a few weeks ago.
link to businessforscotland.co.uk
“…and pointed out the UK government had stated it does not build warships in other territories….”
That’s somewhat disingenuous. It is true that current UK policy is to rely on the exemption to EU procurement law which allows member states to take measures they consider necessary for their own security – i.e. building warships within national territory. But if you read between the lines of the UK govt’s response to Davidson’s committee’s ‘Separation shuts shipyards’ report, there’s a tacit acknowledgement that this policy is far from absolute and may (have to) be modified if Scotland becomes independent.
link to parliament.uk
The real warning carried in in this response is that if a future UK government decided not to rely on the exemption, then EU procurement law would apply, and Scottish yards would find themselves tendering against competition from elsewhere in the EU. Now, that’s certainly a hurdle, but not an insurmountable one.
As for the ‘break clause’ – you only need to ask yourself who in their right mind would tender for a contract in the knowledge that it might be taken away from them again – presumably with no compensation – to see the complete lack of coherent thought behind the idea
When we get our independence, this man should be tried for treason.
Only a matter of time before Labour implodes . when folk will say fucking wait a minute this is my country you are talking about fool.
If you remember back we looked at the Shipyard issue a while ago.
It was said at the time that if they closed Govan or Scotstoun in favour of Portsmouth then they would need to upgrade the Portsmouth facility.
A commercial company wouldnt do that (shut a perfectly good yard in order to pay for upgrades on another yard) unless they were recouping the costs by other means.
These moves by BAE to remove cranes from Govan indicates that they have indeed decided to shut Govan and save Portsmouth.
So 2 things matter here:
1) Where are BAE getting the funding for the Portsmouth upgrade they will need?
2) Clearly being in the union does NOT protect shipbuilding!
Maybe Davidson isn’t attacking his OWN constituents because he already knows the yard will be shut long before then – and only Scotstoun will remain.
Aneurin Bevan “So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin.” (Bellevue Hotel 1948). Mind, he was talking about the Tories, not his own. Seems appropriate here though. Glad to say I have no associations with them anymore. And never will after Darling’s recent performances, never mind the walking disaster zones of Sarwar, Lamont, Baillie and Davidson. Hope people start to open their eyes and see the truth soon.
Whats to stop the Scottish Government telling BAE what they will be looking for in the event of a YES vote.We once had the biggest war ship in the world but we don’t need anything like that now though.
Like WWII fanatics of old that will hide a live grenade under their bodies while dying: “You may have managed to send me to hell, but I’m taking as many of you with me as I can”
Do his constituents have to kiss his hand and call him Don Davidson when attending his surgeries? or do they have to lick his jackboots first?
Meant to add – lovely caption Stu. Good to laugh in the face of adversity and stupidity.
@scottminto
Guessing you were being rhetorical re Portsmouth and funding but came across this from Bloomberg in September. Frankly doesn’t mean a lot to me as I know very little about BAE, ship building, contracts etc but for those that do it may be of interest.
link to bloomberg.com
What a despicable individual. The kind of person that is now typical of the Labour Party – some-one who will quite happily damage his community and his country to protect his position in Westminster. The type who looks south for his personal and financial advancement.
You don’t have to open doors, Davidson – not when you can crawl under them.
I suspect any such clause in a contract would be illegal. It’s basically the same as saying ‘if my party doesn’t win the next election, the contract is void’. Were such clauses possible, it would make the relationship between the private sector and government unworkable.
Danny, that has crossed my mind too, a bit of pre-procurement discussion regarding production capacity and cost for equiping a new Scots Navy sounds like a plan.
Even setting an example by dealling with what will be a ‘furrin’ company (BAE)?
@Albaha
“Guessing you were being rhetorical re Portsmouth and funding”
Yes… yes I was.
“BAE Systems Plc, Europe’s largest defense company, is taking part in a U.K. government effort to strengthen suppliers at the historic Portsmouth, England, naval base at a time when shipbuilding there is in doubt.
“The company will help allocate grant money under a £3.2 billion-pound government effort to bolster small and medium-sized businesses, Derren Chamberlain, head of BAE’s maritime supply chain, said in an interview. Some funds are dedicated for suppliers at Portsmouth, he said.
“BAE, which consolidated the U.K.’s warship building capacity in 2009, lacks work to sustain its three surface shipyards located in Portsmouth, 70 miles southwest of London, and Scotstoun and Govan in Scotland. After completion of two Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers, due to start coming into service in 2018, activity will dip before building of Type 26 Global Combat Ships commences. The company and the defense ministry are in talks on whether to shut one site.”
So the UK announces £3.2bn to upgrade Portsmouth and its suppliers and shortly thereafter the Govan Yard loses the cranes needed to make it viable…
@Triskelion
Regarding Davidsons electricity claim. Perhaps it is his electric bayonett sharpener that uses so much.
link to twitter.com
What a spiteful action. It is the equivalent of Nichola Sturgeon promising to petition FIFA to abolish the SPL and make a single UK football league in the event of a No vote.
Mind you, there would be a few round Govan way who would be in favour of that!
@ScottMinto
So is the BAE argument that the cranes’ removal are not an indicator of closure, as they claim, just nonsense?
link to bbc.co.uk
Quite frankly though, it seems implausible that as an independendent country with the coastline and number of islands we need to serve, as well as our independent defence needs, our fishing industry and of course our oil and gas and offshore renewables sectors, we would be unable to support a far larger shipbuilding industry than we have at the moment.
Particularly with our maritime history, existing facilities (and much of the infrastructure in place to re-establish closed ones).
It’s a moot point as to whether he is the best example of a Labour Party career politician on the gravy train, but he’s certainly been adept at milking the system. Typically, his entire career has been within Party: he has no experience of a real job. You can point to Jim Murphy and other opportunists, but Davidson seems to surpass them in undesirable traits: boneheaded, self-seeking, aggressive and unpleasant.
“It’s naked blackmail. It’s a hostage situation. “Vote No or we’ll make thousands of Glaswegians suffer”.”
Well, we know what happens when you pay the Danegeld round here, don’t we?
How anyone could ever think that this is a good way to get votes for No is beyond me. Are we sure this guy isn’t an undercover Yes supporter?
Ian Davidson clearly values the survival of his Westminster job above that of any worker in Glasgow.
Even if the leader of Scottish Labour has no power over a sitting MP, now would be the time for anyone with a bit of gumption and sense of traditional Labour values to publicly state that Davidson is talking complete sh1te.
This is not how you gain the trust of the electorate, is it?
@Albalha
Only time will tell, but it’s mightily suspicious that at the same time as the UK government is throwing billions at Portsmouth, the Govan yard is gettting bits quietly dismantled.
Mr Davidson should explain to us all why there was no “break” possible in the contract to build the aircraft carriers. This contract was placed by Labour. The Tories were stuck with it.
He could also explain why the design of these carriers depended entirely on the supply of one variant of one aircraft built by a foreign power.
“At the next election we shall have a choice between the people who’ve given us five years of austerity, the people who left us this mess, and the people who signed public pledges that they wouldn’t raise student fees, and then did so – the most blatant lie in recent political history,” wrote Paxman.
“It won’t be a bombshell if very large numbers of the electorate simply don’t bother to vote. People are sick of the tawdry pretences,” said the presenter who dubbed the “whole green-bench pantomime in Westminster … a remote and self-important echo-chamber”.
link to theguardian.com
I would say that it beggars belief, but given Davidson’s previous utterances, its sadly not unbelivable at all.
Davidson is a disgrace. From his Wikipedia profile:
“During the 2009-10 Expenses Scandal, it emerged that Davidson claimed £87,699 in the four years to 2007; only £30 below the maximum permitted. He has since admitted that he wished he had a larger mortgage on his London flat to allow him to claim more in allowances and that new expenses rules, brought in after the expenses scandal, would leave him out of pocket. He also used £5,500 of public cash to pay a friend to carry out some renovating work at his flat – he later took the same friend shooting at an annual Commons v Lords competition.”
The sad thing is, he’ll just retire and get a nice pension. Makes you feel sick.
Nasty wee man whose days at the Westminster trough are hopefully coming to an abrupt end come Sept 2014. Nae wonder he is squealing the loudest……enjoy separashun day Ian…..lol!
@The man in the Jar
“Regarding Davidsons electricity claim. Perhaps it is his electric bayonett sharpener that uses so much.”
Or his machine to paint red crosses on saltires!
@ScottMinto
Indeed.
In amongst all the other insults hurled at Davidson in these comments (a mere fraction of what he truly deserves) are the words ‘little’ and ‘wee’. Please, folks, do not insult people of below average size by using these words in this context, and somehow associating them with this blight on the face of Scottish politics.
Davidson and his type do the job for us, and are thick as mince.
Is the information that the Portsmouth yard is getting a billion pound upgrade and the Govan yard being asset stripped known to the workers?
Have any MSM reported this because if not the people of Govan should be told.
It is surely sensible strategic policy for any maritine nation to have a shipbuilding capability to ensure it can service its navy? And so the UK is taking such steps so that in the event of an independence Yes vote they have such a capability. Just mark it the the negotiations tally book this expenditure of UK funds for the benefit of a future rUK. Same too with Crossrail, London sewers etc etc.Next up, expect tempting employment and relocation offers to Govan key workers for a new life in Portsmouth.
I note the IFS report declares that an independent Scotland, with a POPULATION share of North Sea oil and Gas would have a GDP comparable with rUK, however with a geographical share, ye ken,like since the hydrocarbons are in Scottish waters, an independent Scotland would do rather well.
Or the government will do what it always does and awards the contract where they’ll gain the most benefit or advantage.
Davidson is so far out of order on this you’d need the Hubble telescope to locate his arse. How f*****g dare he threaten his own constituents. I’ve never used the ‘T’ word when posting, NOT EVER, but that man does tempt. In this instance his own constituents…
Unbelievable.
@liz
Yes they have, various places, the most recent, a day ago, as posted above.
link to bbc.co.uk
I suggest Ian Davidson should pursue the rest of his political career in Zimbabwe.
“We now use safer and more efficient mobile cranes in the construction of our complex warships.”
Coz them is easier to get down the M6 init??
Sneekyboy said: “The company will help allocate grant money under a £3.2 billion-pound government effort to bolster small and medium-sized businesses, Derren Chamberlain, head of BAE’s maritime supply chain, said in an interview. Some funds are dedicated for suppliers at Portsmouth, he said.
And of that £3.2bn, Scotland contributes, what, £300million, for the privilege of bolstering England’s marine construction infrastructure whilst at the same time reducing our own?
Another Union Dividend.
Ian Davidson: the bloated personification of British nationalism.
What a ("Tractor" - Ed) to his constituents.
No point commenting on this turd, as all he would understand is a “good smack in the puss”
Everytime i see him somehow i picture him as Paw Broon…nae idea why, i just dae. Hes just a horrible wee fly-man who again epitomises how wrong Labour have gone.
Regards . “Vote No or we’ll make thousands of Glaswegians suffer”.”…
it could also be
. “Vote YES and we’ll make thousands of Glaswegians suffer”. Ian Davidson will come hame!”
Dewar had the foresight to stop him becoming an MP, Labour have let their standards drop considerably.
But no mention of the 3.2 billion investment in Portsmouth.
I thought that they would be smart enough to leave this until after the referendum but obviously not. With the news that billions are being spend in Portsmouth, the odds are that a Scottish Yard will be surplus to requirements and with the removal of the cranes its odds on its Govan.
As Velofelo says, it would be amiss for Ruk not to have a shipbuilding capability, however what it does show us is that the UK believe there is a possibility of a yes vote. They must have their own polling data , Davidson probably knows this also, therefore he is a hypocrite, by suggesting that its only in the event of a yes vote that the Govan yard will close when in fact it looks like its going to happen anyway.
By the way Velofelo I am a Velofelo as well, 60 Venom Clubman…
Slightly Off topic although some of it is in Govan, nice to see Commonwealth Games Ticket registration section has a Country of Birth drop down List…sitting proudly at the top
SCOTLAND!
I know its purely for convenience but still, Bless em!
Labour is not having a good week. This article in the Telegraph is by Dan Hodges, who, according to his byline is:
a former Labour Party and GMB trade union official, and has managed numerous independent political campaigns. He writes about Labour with tribal loyalty and without reservation.
According to Hodges, Falkirk is a ‘squalid, tawdry mess’: link to archive.is
I work for BAE it is parcel for Scottish sites to fly three flags, the Saltire, The Union Flag and the Company flag.
The history of one’s country doesn’t always remember the true patriots who risked all to put their country’s needs before themselves, but when matters have been resolved, it never forgets the treacherous few who wilfully conspired to raise themselves up to their country’s detriment.
Hello Ann,
Can you inform us on how the workforce feel about these issues (if its the shipbuilding part you are in)?
Don’t Davidson’s Labour constituents realise that this cretin reflects badly on those who vote for him? Or do they really care?
@ Jingly Jangly; Mine is a 1938 KSS Mk2. My first competition bike (scrambler) was a girder fork, rigid frame Mac.I was just seventeen at the time. I drew up a rear suspension conversion my Dad had fabricated as a “homer”,a set of AJS forks,knobbly tyres,and I was ready for the off. I sat my test on a tele fork Mac.
CLPs the length and breadth of the country need to ’grow a pair’, and deselect empees and emespees who put their personal wellbeing above those of their constituents.
link to bbc.co.uk
Does this not refute their claims about contracts going outside of UK?
Velofello
better not rabbit onto much about Velo’s as the Rev will get upset, but my big brother had two a kts and mk2 kss and they went in the coup when he left the island back in the sixties…
ill continue discussion in quarantine!!!
Nothing like Justice FFS!
link to bbc.co.uk
Should the SG be looking at alternative shipyards, in Scotland, who’s HQ is in Scotland to build and service our fleet. And if their isn’t one, create one. Its bad enough our natural resources being held to ransom by privateers, but our defence?
I’ll be back in Govan next year to vote Yes (yippee)and pretty much anybody I know will be voting YES (yippee again).
I’m sure he’ll be bitterly disappointed on the 19th of september after exhausting all his scare stories way before then.
Vote YES and make Davidson YESterday’s man.
YES Scotland.
Davidson is happiest when he is scheming and troughing. He has no interest in people as such, he has been in the politics game for so long only politics matter any more. Just about anyone and everything is potential bayonet fodder.
It is for BAE to decide where they building the type 26 and if they have one shipyard too many. They will close whichever yard doesn’t get the type 26. If they close one yard there will be no where else to build the things. That is why the Tories are unlikely to do what Davidson wants. That and the whole programme slipping to the right.
And of course as we have seen from the news regarding the doubling in price of those aircraft carriers, unionists are so expert when it comes to all things warship!
AH , hiv visions of a Big Warship being TOWED South, wi aw the Unionist Politicions hitching a lift, Methinks its about time you Shipbuilders ( spoiled your good record ) fur good shipbuilding ( ah mean a BAD WELD here n there, BALLEST TANKS HOLED ) wink wink
Is Portsmouth really getting £3.2 billion spent on it, or is it a (possibly fairly small) fraction of the money in a £3.2 billion programme? People may be jumping the gun a bit here. After all, BaE have already said they need to close one of their three shipyards, and it would be surprising if the UK government was happy about them closing the only one that is not in Scotland, leaving the future rUK with no capacity to build warships. Perhaps this is a good sign, if the UK government is planning for the consequences of Scottish independence.
This shite from Davidson needs to be aggressively and immediately debunked by a leaflet drop in Govan by YES Scotland explaining the real position vis a vis the Govan Yard
Yes Scotland needs to take this guy on and at the risk of diverting resources from the main campaigning effort this opportunity to deal with him should not be missed
In words and deeds, this thug seems to be mutating into a resurrected version of Ernst Rohm – the assassinated leader of the Sturmabteilung.
Should Scotland embrace re-independence, I wonder how long the upper echelons of the Unionist establishment will allow him to be tholed in their midst? Ditto for their other comprador apparatchiks. Might there even be a re-enactment of the Night of the Longknives down in the rUK? Given this event, he may not be clad in a brown shirt, but his boxers will be clinging about him and laden with keech as he contemplates his destiny courtesy of his once fellow travellers on the Union Schtick Road.
One word covers the rantings of this man, ARSE HOLE!
@ Big Al
Just been past the yard – I don’t recall seeing the Union Flag there before.
@Ann
Didn’t notice any Saltire.
I regard the Union Flag as a YES symbol, cos every time I see one I think “vote YES!”
link to bbc.co.uk
“BAE to cut possibly more than 1,000 UK shipyard jobs
BAE Systems is to cut potentially more than 1,000 jobs from its UK shipyards at Govan and Scotstoun in Glasgow and at Plymouth and Portsmouth.”
@Murray McCallum
Now, if the Independence White Paper later this month was to indicate that new ships for a Scottish Navy would required, and constructed preferably in Scotland thus saving jobs, would that be a coincidence? I’m keeping my fingers crossed about that one.
Mr. Chib (Yer Govan representative) says …
“Am no takin a pay cut fur naebody. So if yoos vote fur sepurayshun, yoos yins wull a’ be chibbed.”
Davidson has utter contempt for his fellow Scots – not to mention his constituents and how he keeps getting elected is as mysterious as the possibility of discovering the God Particle, but what costs more to run the CERN Hadron Super Collider or this despicable bampot.
As mentioned earlier – to think he’ll even get a golden pension out of it makes your skin crawl!
We’ll well and just were are the new ships to built then Mr Davidson the last time a non scottish yard built ships for the navy they had to bailed out by the Scottish yards remember the LSD(A) contract won by Swan Hunters they went bust over contract and one of the ships was finished with the help of BAE’s staff the 2nd ship was towed to Glasgow to be completed.
you can’t just turn on a Naval ship yard to design and build a warship it requires experienced personnel. No yard in the RUK has this capability anymore you may it can done at Barrow but they tied up Submarines which are different beast to warships. If you take a look at BAE having taken over VT at Portsmouth which had two warship orders for Oman and Trinidad & Tobago at the time. The T&T ships two had to built at Glasgow to get the programme on an even keel. Then a change of government in the Caribbean resulted in the Ships being eventually sold to Brazil. With engineering resource from the scottish yards to sort the design flaws out. Then the Oman ships which have been a disaster ships more than 2 years late the penalties incurred run into hundreds of millions. A large team of Scottish based employees have had to be decamped in Portsmouth to sort out the mess and complete the contract.
this week we hear that the carrier is currently over run by an estimated 800.000.000 pounds
a design contract given to french company Thales and built by an alliance of companies. Guess what who is doing most of the work at Rosyth you guessed it BAE staff from the Scotstoun and Govan yards. There is only one company BAE and only the Scottish Yards that can built warships in the UK. There currently over 300 people at Scotstoun designing the Type 26 i think BAE would prefer to built the ships in Scotland as it would be more cost effective. Of course the RUk government could get them built elsewhere but a what price. They are not blessed with loads of cash at present. Plus when a Yes vote is secured they will have even less.
You can’t polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter!
SDF could order T.26 reducing costs for both an Independent Scotland & rUK but that’s part of the negotiations. Faslane has several cranes that could replace the ones raped from the Govan site. However, mobile cranes do provide flexibility when constructing warships.
Constitutionally if Scotland says ‘yes’ in September 2014 there is no UK Government, as the UK Government ceases to exist and Scotland and England return to being sovereign nation states so they can negotiate the nuts and bolts of ending the Treaty of Union while moving the current joint functions, in Scotland’s case, out of Whitehall. In May 2015 England will re-elect its first sovereign Parliament since 1707.
In Scotland the sovereign Parliament resumed its 1707 suspended session in 1999 and will elect its next sovereign parliament in May 2016. The Scottish Parliament’s legitimacy is derived from the considered will of the people of Scotland and the ‘considered will of the people of Scotland’ was upheld by the UK Supreme Court in Axa et al vs The Scottish Parliament in 2010 which reaffirmed Lord Cooper’s 1953 contention of the constitutional position of the people of Scotland in Scots Law and under the Treaty of Union for all time.
The interesting position is if Davidson’s English Parliament claims to be the UK successor state does that mean they become liable for the costs of all the current UK Defence contracts with BAE?
Given the large upfront costs already incurred for the Type 26, would it make sense to cancel the Type 26 Frigates or is it more likely Scotland will buy 4 type 26 for the SDF and the English RN take the rest? It may well be an independent Scotland commissions the first four type 26 Frigates down the slip at Govan, starting the build process in mid 2015 as soon as a Scottish Treasury has full legal powers.
Finally be very clear BAE has already stated it will build no more ships in Portsmouth as the costs are far too high. BAE Portsmouth is being downsized to a RN base maintenance facility. The plan BAE sold to their shareholders is to maintain build capacity at Barrow in Furness for submarines and the Clyde for surface vessels as these yards are amongst the most efficient warship yards in Europe.
There will be lay off’s between the end of the carrier build and the start of the type 26 build but given BAE’s experience of mass lay offs at Barrow and the impact this has had on the Astute Class builds, I think they will be very selective this time around at both Barrow, Govan and Scotstoun.
I wish someone would hold a gun to Davidson’s head.
This man is an embarassment to Scotland. He epitomises everything that is bad about Scotland.
He is an out-and-out brit and given some of his “speeches” in westminster is obviously hoping to preserve his career in the Labour party in England post-independence. I wish him luck on that one, as no-one in their right mind would give this turd a job.
The sooner we are shot of him the better.
As things stand it is the threat of the SNP that keeps Govan open as Tories can’t dare to let it close before we vote next September.
Perhaps Davidson might tell that to the the workers.
Davidson is using his constituents as pawns in some British unionst political sick game’
Another Union Dividend – BAE’s 5 year business plan, agreed with shareholders over 18 months ago, made clear the only warship build capacity BAE would retain in the UK was at Barrow (subs) and the Clyde (surface). The reason is simple they are two of the most efficient and cost effective warship yards in Europe.
Hammond (UK Defence Secretary) has stated today BAE will build the type 26’s where it is the best business case to build them, in reponse to questions about the closing of Portsmouth / Southampton warship build capacity.
If you were daft enough to believe the guff coming out of ‘Better Together’ then so be it, Portsmouth’s closure was confirmed by Vince Cable last April when he announced a regeneration package for Portsmouth Docks.
Ron Burgundy. re. post at 2.48pm. you have got it spot on. YES campaign need to leaflet Govan and let people know exactly what is going on
The BBC (Scotland Region) Business Editor, Douglas Fraser, scaremongering earlier today on Drive Time:
Along the lines of: It’s only the exemption from EU Procurement rules that’s keeping these yards going and, if a Yes vote is returned, Scotland will look very much like a foreign country to Whitehall.
No mention of a Scots Defence Force requiring vessels. No mention of the Ireland Act 1949, stating that, even though the Republic of Ireland was no longer a British dominion, it would not be treated as a foreign country for the purposes of British law.
And, of course, no challenge from the presenter on that point. It’s balance when they see fit and on their own terms. The BBC are a disgrace.
Scott,
I don’t work directly at the Ship building sites, and I can’t divulge into which site I work at.
I can let you know that there have been meetings held in all the BAE Systems, Maritime Services sites and we knew that one of the three ship yards Govan, Scotstoun or Portsmouth will be looking to be shut down or mothballed until the type 26 comes on line.
Now us being canny Scots know for a fact that BAE Systems would sacrifice one of the Scottish Yards to save Portsmouth, but then again they might just surprise everybody.
The main problem as has been highlighted is the BAE are very reluctant to move out of the military sector and also struggles to get a toe hold into the gas, oil and renewables sector and this is mainly down to costs being too high and trying to compete against the well established companies already in the sector.
Independence may well be the saving grace for BAE Systems Scottish sites as we will need to build and support our own military services and these sites along with other established firms like Babcock, Raytheon, Thales, Selex should really be front runners with the Scottish Government.
The Labour Party has used the threat of the loss of defence related jobs as a gun at the head of the Independence movement for decades.We should listen to the advice of Dr Phillips O’Brien ,the academic at Glasgow University specialising in Defence Studies.Dr O’Brien says that an essential component of the SNP defence policy should be the creation of a Defence Adjustment Fund to help workers manage the change from Westminister defence priorities to Edinburgh priorities.With a billion pound fund we could offer workers enhanced redundancy payments,enhanced retraining grants and enhanced re-location grants. Iain Davidson might crushed in the rush for change.
Is the chairbob hanging his head in yir photo cos he just had the flyers printed at great expense (to the taxpayer), and now the jobs are going under his watch anyway?
The only reason he released the pamphlet and said those things is to lay blame on yes voters and SNP he is treating all the voters as imbeciles he is one for thinking that kick the rsol out
I see Ian Davidson is calling for an immediate transfer of shipyard work from England to Scotland to fill the gap in Scotstoun and Govan order books.
How likely is that?
So much for Better Together. Project Fear is turning into Project Panic.
The only chink of light I can see in this is that surely only a man who is seriously frightened of losing something would resort to measures as desperate as this!
Scottish political history website in the year 2063,
Search index for; ‘Ian Davidson. MP. British Parliament. Early 21st century. (Exeunt 2016)’.
Footnote to a footnote to a footnote to a footnote.
Now here is the “biggie”. It is being reported that BAE wanted to close Govan and revealed this to MOD officials last month. However due to the impending referendum the Coalition have reached a compromise agreement that saves Govan for the time being but means job losses at Scotstoun, Portsmouth and of course Govan itself. There is a rumour that Portsmouth maybe mothballed pending the contract for the Type 26 frigate. For Govan this is a reprieve but the future of the yard is now very much in doubt.
I presume some folk that build these weapons have to sign the official secrets act – how does that work after a Yes vote?
Just heard on BBC Breakfast that Westminster negotiations have saved Govan shipyard. Following on from the SNP’s sucessful intervention to save the jobs at Grangemouth, I smell sh!te.
So, we are now in the wholly ridiculous situation, whereby shipyard closures will be determined according to whether they will affect Scottish independence or not. This morning, on the ITV daybreak news at around 0703, the presenter stated quite clearly, that analysts did not expect the Scottish yards to be closed, due to the independence referendum next year.
Honestly, the folks in the Clyde shipyards need to wake up, and realise most of the yards were closed whilst as part of the UK. Now, we are to be treated to blatant bribery and deceit to keep the yards at Glasgow open until the referendum is over.
Anybody who seriously believes that jobs on the Clyde are safer with decisions made at Westminster, really needs their head read. Does anybody in Scotland seriously think Westminster really gives a flying f*** about Clyde yards???????
It is clear, is it not, that London desperately wants to keep its greasy claws in Scotland, and the forthcoming announcement regarding Clyde yards will be part of the deceit. Endless yard closures and job losses on the Clyde WITHIN the UK.
Independence isn’t the problem, its actually the solution. Vote YES in 2014 for a better re-viatalised Scottish shipbuilding industry, free from Westminster corruption .
As for the likes of Ian Davidson and his unionista ilk within the Labour party, they will lose their cushy London jobs with second homes and expenses, if Scotland becomes independent. THAT is what they are worried about. They are a disgrace.
Govan has not been saved it has been reprieved due to the impending referendum. We know that both BAE and the MOD wanted to close Govan because there isn’t naval work to secure the future of both Scotstoun and Govan.
Everyone and his dog knows that Govan is doomed unless it can now compete in the commercial market. Also spare a thought for the workers in Scotstoun and Portsmouth they are to lose their jobs in order to reprieve Govan. Is that what they mean by Better Together (on the dole)?
The truth is that successive UK governments have embarked on job creation exercises that has resulted in massive MOD cost overruns, next to useless naval ships that has brought shipbuilding to its knees.
So let’s be frank;
Vote NO and see Govan closed.
Vote YES and secure shipbuilding on the Clyde.
Build liners – the growth area – Norway does.
There are now less ships and planes to protect the Scottish coastline and the Atlantic.
100K future skilled workers are needed in the North Sea
£1.5Billion will be saved a year by decommissioning Trident.
What about building wind turbines on the Clyde or developing the oil fields off the West coast. Developing CC projects and using coal. Black gold, cheaper and plentiful all over the UK.
Lamont on radio GMS Govan not closing but some jobs going (and this bit) I have been in touch with number 10) Well I never! Who would have thought it.
Just heard Johann Lamont on the Today programme (07.55). Essentially an ear-bleeding monologue, no real attempt to ask her penetrating questions. Main points were:
1. When asked if she agreed with Ian Davidson’s quote, she did not say yes or no, but that “Ian is recognised as an authority” on shipbuilding – implying total agreement.
2. That she was interested in solidarity with the workforce (whatever that actually means in practical terms)
3. That said solidarity should be across the UK, with workers not divided against each other, ignoring the fact that 2/3 of these shipyards are on or near her patch.
4. That this should not be reported in ‘divisive’ terms and should be about ‘more than the future of one politician’ (I presume she meant Alex Salmond).
Ken500,
You make a good point regarding liners and other industries. Just consider, for years, Scots were fed the myth that it was impossible to compete with asian shipyards so that was why the Clyde yards were run down, and yet right now in 2013, there are busy shipyards in France, Norway, Finland, Germany and Italy. Indeed, let’s not forget that the massive Cunard liner, Queen Mary 2, was built in France.
The only reason for the decline on the clyde has been successive London Governments who couldn’t give a sh** for the Clyde shipbuilders. Norway can compete, Finalnd can compete, France (very heavily unionised) can compete, Germany can compete and Italy can compete.
The sooner Scotland is independent, the sooner we can start properly investing in OUR Scottish shipbuilding expertise, instead of letting a London Government which nobosy in Scotland elected, trash our industries.
Just as an aside, often when I talk to people regarding independence, I simply ask them, what has Westminster done for Scotland over the last fifty years? Sweet f all, that’s what.
@ Doug
4. That this should not be reported in ‘divisive’ terms and should be about ‘more than the future of one politician’ (I presume she meant Alex Salmond).
Funny, that. Isn’t this about the future of one politician, Ian Davidson MP?
Yup, Lamont being bigged up on GMS this morning (the attempt to hold her to account over Falkirk already forgotten). The way she was trailed on the news made you think she was FM.
The Union of course will save Govan (reprieve it until 19 September next year).
James Kelly also allowed unchallenged platform to attack the SG over GARL.
Still, all just a muddle and not a fiddle from the BBC, eh Derek?
Aye Call Kaye seems to know what’s happening.Tune in at 11:30 ish! Shipbuilding to stop in Portsmouth! It’s closing.Why do we need a UK parliamentary announcement. Lamont’s mention of number 10 earlier this morning must have swung it. Aye right.
BAE Systems is expected to bring forward its announcement on the fate of its three British shipyards, with shipbuilding at Portsmouth likely to stop.link to bbc.co.uk
Portsmouth is to be mothballed. Job cuts at both Govan and Scotstoun.
It doesn’t change the fact that both BAE and the MOD wanted to close Govan. The shipyard has been reprieved due to the impending referendum. Workers in Scotstoun and Portsmouth are going to lose their jobs as a consequence as part of this Better Together thinking.
However, this short-term political decision does not secure the future of Govan or Scotstoun. The stark fact is that they don’t need two yards on the Clyde for naval work. If Govan is to be saved, rather than reprieved, then it has to compete in the commercial market. That requires both BAE and government to formulate a commercial strategy for shipbuilding on the Clyde. It is very difficult to see any UK government being interested in that.
Only independence can secure a future for shipbuilding on the Clyde.
To those of you who know a great deal more than me about this industry how accurate is the Dr P O’ Brien’s assertion, this morning on GMS, that to become commercial shipbuilders is a complete non starter due to global wage pressures? Don’t commercial contracts go to other EU states?
Portsmouth council, Gerald Vernon-Jackson,
“Portsmouth is the last place in England that has the ability to build advanced warships for the Royal Navy and I’m very concerned that with a potential independence vote in Scotland, if Portsmouth shipbuilding is shut down, what would remain of the UK would have no ability to build advanced warships.
“We’re an island nation (England?) We depend on sea trade for the food we eat, for the fuel in our cars, for the gas in our central heating systems, and the Royal Navy has never brought ships from abroad. It would just mean either that that would have to change and the Royal Navy would have to buy ships from France or Germany (not Scotland) – or we’d have to spend a huge amount of public money re-employing people, re-skilling people here in Portsmouth”.
Expect a backlash from English MPs.
@ Albalha
I’m not an expert in shipbuilding, but many European countries provide subsidies to shipyards in their country. It’s a political decision, presumably because of jobs and also because shipbuilding is still seen as a “strategic industry”.
A couple of years ago the STX shipyard in Turku, Finland, lost a big contract to another STX shipyard in France. What STX did was engage the Finnish and French governments in a “bidding war”, i.e. which government would give more subsidies to STX.
There is growing hostility to this decision and towards Scotland by our southern cousins, here is a typical example;
– Pam Braddock, in Gosport, “I am disgusted that this government, in an effort to bribe the Scots, is prepared to sacrifice the city which has been the home of the Royal Navy and shipbuilding for five hundred years. What will happen if the independence vote is against the Union. England will have no shipbuilding capacity left. I am heartbroken and very, very angry about this. –
More hostile comments;
Jason Sessions, in Coulsdon, “Decision should have been made after referendum. If Scots vote ‘yes’ the UK won’t even be building its own naval vessels. So much for rebalancing the economy, England loses out again.“
@lumilumi
Very interesting thanks, it makes sense, so no reason an independent Scotland couldn’t do the same.
An issue that seems to be forgotten when the pro-union side are deciding where future MOD contracts are placed is that, as early as 2015, the MOD may have been effectively privatised.
If the Government Owned Contractor Operated (GoCo) initiative goes ahead the decisions for where ships will be built will be taken by the contractor, not the MOD.
I suspect many more “not built outside UK” contracts will be going outside UK.
@ Albalha
Well, it is a political decision. Indy-Scotland could decide to subsidise shipbuilding. However, I’d be a bit wary of how it’s done. All the big shipyards in Finland are now owned by big foreign companies so the Finnish government pays foreign companies to build ships here. The argument is to keep a highly-skilled workforce, and of course actual jobs in the shipyards and in the supply chain.
For a long time the Finnish shipbuilding industry did well by specialising in luxury cruise liners (mainly for the Caribbean cruise market). I remember news footage of yet another “world’s biggest luxury cruise liner” being launched from a Finnish shipyard, then another a couple of years later, and then another…
The downside is that Finnish shipbuilding became very one-sided, and now there are serious problems. The STX (a Korean company) example from a couple of years ago shows that the Finnish government can’t (or doesn’t have the political will) to compete with the French government in subsidising shipbuilding.
I have to confess I have no idea where Finnish Navy’s vessels are built. 🙂
@lumilumi
Yes it needs to be well managed but worth considering it seems to me. And this Finnish company seems to do a lot of small boat building for the Finnish Navy, link to marinealutech.com . It’s always interesting to delve headfirst into a previously little known subject.
Realise I may be missing your finer POINT re not knowing where Finnish Navy boats are built!
Hypocrisy alert:
Harry Donaldson, the Scottish secretary of the GMB union, has warned that the shipyards should not be used as a “political football”.
This is the same Harry Donaldson who in June claimed that Scotland faced potential job losses in such industries as shipbuilding if Scots vote YES in the referendum.
This is the same Harry Donaldson in announcing his union would support the NO campaign expressed the concern, “If Scotland became independent in September 2014 there would be a loss of 40 labour MPs at Westminster – a major blow for the Labour Party achieving the return of a Labour government in the next General Election on May 7 2015”
This is the same Harry Donaldson who has been roundly condemned in not allowing GMB members a vote in determining the union’s position on independence.
This issue is very much a “political football” because the likes of Harry Donaldson made it so.
1,800 jobs to go at yards in Glasgow (800) and Portsmouth (1000).
Much more severe than expected.
Daily Record repeat the Ian Davidson line, “If there is fear over these vessels subsequently being built in what UK defence chiefs would regard as a foreign country iScotland), then a break clause repatriating the work (to England, France or Germany) could be built into the contracts.”
Here we have the DR agreeing that if Scots vote YES then Scottish shipbuilders should lose their jobs.
Interesting BT letter on this twitter feed.
link to twitter.com
Ian Davidson. Can I threaten the wain’s with him if they wont got to sleep.
did I not read news few weeks ago that the RN tankers are being built in South Korea
There are no yards anywhere in the world that could build the Type 26 frigates that are not already too busy building ships for their own country except from those on the Clyde, Claims that the RN will build their ships abroad are baseless.
[…] would benefit or outright damage Scottish interests. We saw this as the MP for Govan advocated the economic ruin of thousands in his own constituency in order to maintain the Union. We saw this as a prospective leader of New Labour in Scotland […]
[…] liar, a hypocrite, and a bully. But it was only with the coming of the referendum that it was clear just how far he was willing to sell his constituents down the river to please his masters in […]