The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland


A different outlook

Posted on March 17, 2013 by

Only the special ineptitude of the Scotsman could make the task of downloading a simple PDF into a near-impossible trial suitable for the Krypton Factor. We don’t advise you bother trying to get yourself a copy of “Scotland Decides” (the paper’s compilation of its eight-week series of pro- and anti-independence essays) from its own website unless you have a fetish for frustration, but thanks to the sterling efforts of Peter Bell we have a local copy here for you without all the dicking around.

positive

The contents of the document, when all taken together, are revealing.

Here are one-line summaries of the four articles on each side.

PRO-INDEPENDENCE

1. “We could eradicate child poverty.” (Nicola Sturgeon, politician)

2. “We’ll be able to take responsibility for ourselves, get the government we vote for, create jobs and grow the economy.” (Jim McColl, businessman)

3. “We’ll be able to engage more with the rest of the world, and self-confidence will enhance our culture.” (Murray Pittock, academic)

4. “We could build a more ethical, social democratic, fairer, greener, less selfish ideology for Scotland.” – (Karine Polwart, songwriter)

ANTI-INDEPENDENCE

1. “Business would become more costly and bureaucratic, and all the oil money would go on servicing debt, and we get the government we vote for nearly half the time anyway.” (Phil Anderton, businessman)

2. “We might literally die if the English and Scottish NHS stopped co-operating with each other in the future for some reason.” (Sally Russell, hospital patient)

3. “We might all lose our pensions.” (Ronald Bowie, investment consultant)

4. “We wouldn’t have been able to bail out the banks and we couldn’t afford renewable energy or foreign aid.” (Alistair Darling, benefits claimant.)

Ah, the ever-heartwarming positive case for the Union.

Print Friendly

    46 to “A different outlook”

    1. Angus McLellan says:

      We wouldn’t have been able to bail out the banks. 
      Being forced to do the right thing without having to exhaust all the other possibilities first (yes, that’s a paraphrase of Churchill on Americans) seems like a good thing. Not just my opinion that, Professor John Kay says so too. So, too wee, too poor could turn out to be a plus? Who knew, apart from Professor Kay, you, me and the dogs in the street?

    2. Patrician says:

      Seriously, it was hard to do? it took 4 clicks including following link from this site, downloading and opening pdf in Adobe Reader.

    3. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Seriously, it was hard to do? it took 4 clicks including following link from this site, downloading and opening pdf in Adobe Reader.”

      You are magically blessed by the gods. For me:

      1. Click download link on Scotsman site.

      2. Click download link on Steamie page.

      3. None of the buttons do anything in Firefox.

      4. Paste URL into Chrome.

      5. Get asked to login to Facebook.

      6. Chrome is tied to my real Facebook account, and the Scotsman can fuck off if it thinks I’m letting it into that.

      7. Load up third browser, paste URL, hit Download, give it details of special anti-spam Facebook account, log in, watch message that says “Login successful, taking you back” with spinny clock icon for about 10 minutes before giving up.

      8. After a similar struggle, Peter finally navigates his way through the many Java scripts and (somehow) gets hold of a copy and uploads it to his Dropbox.

      9. Download it from there.

      And that’s skipping my initial attempts to download it on my iPad, which went similarly to step (7).

    4. Susan Swan says:

      Actually dear it was impossible to do without logging in on Facebook or having a scribdin account or whatever it is called.  This is unacceptible as it should be open to anyone to download. 

    5. Andrew Robertson says:

      Are you all stupid?  Incredibly easy to download.   Perhaps Rev inept needs to go to OAP computer classes!

    6. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Are you all stupid? Incredibly easy to download.”

      Sigh. “It worked for me” != “It works for everyone”.

      Seriously, are you suggesting that other people don’t know how to click a link? Don’t be stupid.

    7. Castle Rock says:

      “We might literally die if the English and Scottish NHS stopped co-operating with each other in the future for some reason”
       
      The stupidity, ignorance and foulness of that remark is way beyond parody.
       
      The gutter level that the Bitter Together campaign stoops to never ceases to amaze me.

    8. Andrew Robertson says:

      Old people struggle – perhaps you should get some help.
      Just stumbled acrossthis sorry excuse for a blog – poorly laid out, unprofessional and child like.
      Hardly surprising you cant navigate/download a PDF
       

    9. Iain says:

      @Andrew Robertson
      ‘poorly laid out, unprofessional and child like.’
       
      Much like your trolling.

    10. Franklin says:

      I remember when trolling used to mean something…
       
      I kid. The Better Together mob really are trying their level best to justify the “bitter together” nickname with that miserable dross. Scaremongering at every turn and forever failing to provide both solid backing for their claims or at least a positive case and vision as an alternative. If they have nothing – not even hope – what is the point in listening to them?

    11. Dee says:

      Pin this slogan up somewhere Rev… “The poor are getting too rich and the rich are getting too poor”  quote from G Osborne..

    12. Andrew Robertson says:

      There are much better sites that actually engage instead of the drivel from this ‘blog’
      A collection of links to articles with juvenile commentary – soaring above?
       
       
      More like swimming in shite!

    13. @Andrew Robertson
      You’re not really got the hang of debating, yet, have you? Better luck next time.

    14. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      I think in Andrew’s case we’ll dispense with the usual extended benefit of the doubt.

    15. Adrian B says:

      @Andrew Robertson,
       
      Now that you have our attention, what is it you would really like to say?

    16. Andrew Robertson says:

      Seriously- what benefit to Scottish Independence does this self-indulgent collection of regurgitated internet articles serve?
       
      Who in their right mind would donate to keep it in server space (lol)?

    17. Castle Rock says:

      But Andrew, you haven’t given us any commentary just a couple of abusive comments.
       
      C’mon son (see what I did there? No, you probably didn’t), enlighten us with your intellectual insights and tell us why we are ‘Better Together’

    18. molly says:

      Andrew ,welcome ! As we’re all pretty broad minded here and keen to encourage debate ,is there a site/blog you would recommend ?

    19. Stevie Cosmic says:

      WoS…probably the worst site in the world for a unionist troll….

    20. Patrician says:

      I wasn’t trolling with my earlier post (honest 😀 ).  I have now downloaded the pdf with less than 4 clicks, using opera, chrome and firefox, can’t try internet explorer as I am using ubuntu.  I followed the links out of curiousity, I was looking forward to some problem solving/investigation as I was a bit bored. As an explanation, I am very sad as this type of work is what I do for a living and I can’t stop it, even on the weekend.   

    21. Bill C says:

      @Andrew Robertson – “Old people struggle – perhaps you should get some help.
      Just stumbled acrossthis sorry excuse for a blog – poorly laid out, unprofessional and child like.” “Old” and “child”? Opposite ends of the spectrum there Andy ma loon. Perhaps it might be better to clarify your prejudice. Are you  anti-“old” or anti-“child”? BTW “acrossthis” is two words i.e. ‘across this’ and “child” and “like” are one word i.e. ‘childlike’.  Don’t like to see morons make eejits of themselves. LOL.

    22. Patrician says:

      @Susan Swan
      The link is open to everyone, you don’t require a scribd account.  The icon bar is badly designed from a user point of view (but a good design to push people to the Scribd website).  The link to download the pdf is the downward pointing arrow icon (rest your mouse over it and you can see it change to highlighted).  A good design should have included the icon and the “Download” text or the link should be highlighted by default. 

    23. annie says:

      in the words of my chldren andrew is a dick/dork take your pick,

    24. Boorachbill says:

      So, in summary:
       
      Pro independence = 4x good positive things
       
      Anti independence = 4 x bad negative things
       
      Given that a double negative = a positive the anti mob are offering 2 positives? 🙂

    25. Aplinal says:

      @Andrew
       
      If it’s SO BAD, then F*** Off back to Bitter Central.  Your trolling is the most obvious and stupid thing I have seen in the many months reading blogs and online news.
       
      Sorry, Rev.  If you think this is too direct, you can delete this, and I understand.  But sometimes the anti-Scotland, pro-dependency types make me want to vomit. 

    26. Holebender says:

      “Alistair Darling, benefits claimant.” 😀

    27. Amanayeman says:

      I am genuinely puzzled by the attitudes of those defending the Union as expressed by the BT campaign.
      Why are they so bitter nasty? On sites such as this and elsewhere they are unsurpassed by the venom of their argument.
       The other day in the pub having a pint I was accused of being “one of them” when my YES badge was seen. There then followed a tirade about “North Korea” , Alex the Emperor , we will all have to wear uniforms, we fought a war for the likes of you. All at increasing decibel levels. All requests for evidence and calm were ignored and anyone who chose to put forward the case  for independence was insulted. Then came the finger wagging in my face. Well as one may imagine that was the end of any discussion and I said so and turned away. At this the three bold defenders of the Union talked loudly amongst themselves, every one else was a wanker an idiot and wanted a dictatorship .  
      Why are they so bitter and angry? (rhetorical, I know.)

    28. Holebender says:

      “Alistair Darling, benefits claimant.” snigger

    29. CameronB says:

      @ Holebender
      Sorry, but I am plagiarizing your post. It deserves far wider distribution. 🙂

    30. Tattie-boggle says:

      @ Amanayeman

       
      Where you in Annie Millers ?
      None so blind as those who refuse to see…

    31. Davy says:

      Well well, we have a visiter “Andrew Robertson” who in his own words ” just stumbled across this sorry excuse for a blog ” somehow I find this hard to believe. Instead I think our friend just decided to finally stick his head above the quilt and impress us all with his computer skills and political knowledge.
      I just hope he washed his hands first.
       

    32. The Man in the Jar says:

      @Amanayeman
      I have a theory on this. I suspect that the more vocal amongst the bitter together supporters have their political allegiances dictated by football and religion. They do not have a political opinion just tribalism. Therefore they apply the tactics of the terraces shouting abuse louder than the opposition it is all they know. Their reaction would be the same as for example if you wore a Celtic top in a Ranger’s bar.

    33. lupus Incomitatus says:

      The Man in the Jar says:
       
      Simply put and simply correct!

    34. The Man in the Jar says:

      @ Iupous Incomitatus
      Simply the best 😉
      Apologies to tina Turner!

    35. Aplinal says:

      Dear Rev.
       
      After due reflection, perhaps you can delete my two posts earlier.  They do not add anything to the discussion.  I should not let frustration and anger at idiots unduly affect my disposition!  
       
      I should simply accept that the pro-dependency claque have nothing useful to say at this point of the campaign, and ignore their obvious and pathetic attempts to get a rise out of me.   (Mr Robertson succeeded on this occasion, but will not do so in future.)  Apologies for upsetting anyone.
       
      Hail Alba

    36. big_al says:

      @ The Man in the Jar says:
       
      I’ve no doubt that there are some who blindly side with whatever the stance their respective football team has ( i.e. Glasgow Rangers Fans Against the SNP and Alex Salmond)  but in the main those fronting the strands of the better together campaign appear to be political activists. (Especially in the social media world)
       
      I peruse the facebook pages of both Yes Scotland and Better Together and it certainly appears to me that on the better together page there are several posters who are very vocal, who post lots of links to the latest scare story (multiple times) and dismiss out of hand any argument put forward to negate said scare stories. They do seem to have political knowledge along with a hate of anything remotely anti-union. 
       
      Those (potential yes voters)  who engage in conversation and try to put forward a counter argument to the scare, seem to be actual people, Scots in the main, who as can be seen from their profiles, have many and varied interests – the future of Scotland being one of them.
       
      However, when you have a wee look at the vocal better together posters profiles you will find that their facebook pages seem to have been created in the last 3 or so months.
       
      Now, I don’t wish to be paranoid but either;
       
      1. they did not use facebook prior to December 2012, or
       
      2. The facebook account is not in their real name and they are in fact someone else with a ‘real’ account but want to pretend they are a ‘concerned’ voter who believes in better together. When in reality, they are a professional political activist working for or on behalf of one of the political parties.
       
      I could be wrong here but I don’t think I am. It’s too organised and too slick to be anything but people masquerading as one thing but being something entirely different.

    37. Holebender says:

      YesScotland encourages supporters to join Facebook and Twitter so they can participate in the campaign. I’m sure the NO campaign does the same.

    38. muttley79 says:

      From commenting on the Scottish politics stories on the Guardian website I have noticed a number of fanatical Unionist supporters.  They include posters such as Rider000 and Niclas.  I have stopped replying to these posters because I now realise that nothing a pro-independence poster says is ever good enough for them.  They simply do not take on board anything the Yes side says.  They are just out and out British Nationalists.  The truth is that they do not seem to be bothered about Scotland’s future at all.  Their only goal is the continuation of the British state.  I believe that they are only trying to wear Yes supporters down.  An example was yesterday’s comments after Kevin McKenna’s article.  The diehard Unionists starting droning on about 1979, and the SNP voting in Margaret Thatcher.  They never mention the rigged devolution referendum of that year.  That level of partisan nonsense is just boring.  They divert the subject of the article constantly, and seem to be taking a great deal of personal offense at people supporting Scottish independence. 

    39. Robert Kerr says:

      It should help if we can agree a counter to all this.
      “Don’t feed the trolls” helps but we can get through to them at a personal level.
      Why are they as they are? Small frightened people attaching themselves to a “Cause”? Party apparachics on the make? Bitter and twisted people with a grudge against everything good and progressive?
      I am sure that a Damascene conversion may be possible with the correct trigger. 
      “Yes Scotland may be an appropriate forum.
      Any thoughts?

    40. Gayle says:

      I’d like to point out (after reading about the NO campaign FB page comments) that Better Together delete comments and block people who ask questions from their page. They do not welcome open debate at all. 
      Andrew Robertson if you are still here – Perhaps you would like to put your case for the union across. The quotes above are taken from those in the BT campaign so are you saying you disagree with them and if so why?
      As someone who follows the debate it is clear that the NO campaign do not have a positive case. The scare stories are proven to be just that, the argument about oil running out can be flipped to the wider UK which would have a far more detrimental affect. The ability to adapt is also in Scotland’s favour rather than UKs especially since Westminster is full of incompetents (look at capital investment, everyone knew it needed to be done to encourage economic growth but Westminster decided Trident, 32% wage increases and cuts to the poorest and most disadvantaged in society was the way to go and therefore led us into a triple dip recession or 1 long recession lasting 5 years and counting). Perhaps what is needed is to send Scotland’s financial team down to Westminster to take over and show them how it is done.  

    41. The Man in the Jar says:

      @big_al
      In other words Cyberbrits! They provide the bandwagons for the knuckledraggers to enthusiastically jump on.
      This might explain why they imagine that all of us Cybernats are orchestrated from Bute House.
      I’m a Cybernat and so is my dug!
      See Cybernat in the below link.
      http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/4341-a-unionist-lexicon-an-a-z-of-unionist-scare-stories-myths-and-misinformation

    42. The Man from Del Monte says:

      Personally, I don’t see that there is much to be gained by attempting to reason with a person who complains about juvenile comments in the same breath as claiming this site is “swimming in shite”. Securing a ‘Yes’ vote will require us to know when to cut our losses and focus our efforts on more fertile ground, and by my reckoning, this is one such time.

    43. big_al says:

      @The Man in the Jar
       
      Thanks for the link.
      I do read newsnet but haven’t come across that one. 
      Bookmarked for future reference
       
      “If we were to believe the Westminster parties, after independence the Scottish defence capability would consist of a freefone number and a recorded message saying “We surrender” in six languages.” 😀

    44. Stevie says:

      “””””””
      PRO-INDEPENDENCE
      1. “We could eradicate child poverty.” (Nicola Sturgeon, politician)
      2. “We’ll be able to take responsibility for ourselves, get the government we vote for, create jobs and grow the economy.” (Jim McColl, businessman)
      3. “We’ll be able to engage more with the rest of the world, and self-confidence will enhance our culture.” (Murray Pittock, academic)
      4. “We could build a more ethical, social democratic, fairer, greener, less selfish ideology for Scotland.” – (Karine Polwart, songwriter)”””””””””””

      Alas, this is NOT enough — it’s good but we need MORE — the SNP has to say what they will actually do in detail and in general and communicate a new future for the Scottish people.  It’s NOT enough to say that all will be well in the garden in the springtime (I’m Chancey Gardenering here of course) because the electorate want more than promises and rhetoric, they want a solid foundaton.  Yes, I think they need brains but there it is.  They need to be bribed with the truth.

    45. The Man in the Jar says:

      @Stevie
      Are you serious? And can I remind you that this is a referendum not an election. Yes Scotland is not just the SNP. A referendum with a general election shortly after independence. That is the time for party politicks. If it is details you require don’t hold your breath waiting for bitter together providing any.

    46. douglas clark says:

      Stevie,
       
      Are you of the hard core – the Scottish Government must spell out it’s opinion on all issues such as this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schleswig-Holstein_Question – before independence can even take it’s first breath, or are you taking the piss out of that stupidity? I really hope it is the latter.



    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




    ↑ Top