A curious transformation
These are the leaders of the nation’s business community, as they present themselves to us when explaining that they’re the mighty “masters of the universe” and require to be paid ever-soaring salaries in order to generate wealth and jobs and growth, because without them society itself will crumble to dust and we’ll all be reduced to foraging for berries in the shattered ruins of our once-proud civilisation.
These, on the other hand, are the leaders of the nation’s business community as they contemplate the prospect of Scottish independence:
With the possible exception of City Of London traders, business leaders – and especially Scottish ones – are the most lily-livered, fearful, quivering wretches on the face of the British Isles. They had exactly the same abject, pitiful terror of devolution, which oddly failed to bring about Armageddon too. Let us waste no more time fretting about the fragile feelings of this dismal, cowardly shower of whimpering jessies, screaming in blind fright at the thought of all and any change. There’s work to do.
Luckily businesses don’t get to vote, people do.
@Kenny Campbell – Thankfully you are right, my worry is that folk listening to the debate on this poll will be influenced i.e. fearful of their jobs etc. The YES campaign must combat this sort of unionist negativity. Time to use the big hitters from the business world already recruited to counter the naysayers.
Pandering to “business leaders” and “wealth creators” is what has seen global corporations effectively given a choice whether they want to pay tax or not. The fact the press panders to these people kind of gives away the lie that we have a “free” press. We don’t, it’s owned by corporate groups who have an interest in promoting the idea that we rely on these people who altruistically deign to give us jobs, and in return we must do everything we can to allow them to suck up our wealth to amass huge personal fortunes, and most certainly must not do anything that might scare them off to another country to suck up THEIR wealth (which they OBVIOUSLY won’t do anyway once they’ve sucked us dry, no way sir, not a chance).
The power corporations have is a result of over three decades of neoliberal dogma followed slavishly by those in Westminster (although in reality it goes back much, much further than that). If these people don’t want independence, then that’s pretty much all the proof you need that it is in the overwhelming public interest that we get it.
Bear in mind that if businesses had things their way, they would have more say in elections than ordinary people. These people are parasites, by any definition.
So a bunch of Unionist business folk are worried about independence. Is the pope a catholic?
Saw the trailer for Scotland Tonight on this item, but didn’t watch the programme as I increasingly regard it as coming from the same unresearched, non-analytical, superficial, scaremongering, ludicrously biased sludgebucket as Newsnight Scotland. The tenor of the poll was as predicted then. Ho hum.
Slightly O/T, I remember watching the deeply unimpressive Iain McMillan of CBI Scotland declare to an audience gathered to see awards presented to young entrepreneurs that he had interviewed one budding employee who met all the requirements for the post and more, but as he hadn’t worn a shirt and tie at the interview, McMillan (going into full-on Uriah Heep mode) was sadly unable to employ the unfortunate youngster, ladies and gentlemen (sob). Imagine the joy of the audience then, when the first recipient of an award from McMillan pitched up in trainers, jeans and and a baggy shirt hanging this way and that..
THAT photo of Cameron, Boris et al should be adopted by the Yes Campaign, “Do you still wish to be lorded over by these tossers?”
Makes me barf
@Doug Daniel – Agree with every word, you know that, I know that, most free thinkers know that, the problem is most folk don’t know that. They are too busy surviving day to day to realise they are being taken for mugs. I think a lot of folk will look at a poll like this and say ‘That’s it, we really are too wee, too stupid and too poor to govern ourselves’. It’s the old the boss is always right mentality. The only way to beat it is produce the big guns we have in the YES camp, tell the truth about how much oil is left and how we can use it to create jobs and a better Scotland and show the punter in the street how Scotland could be another Norway!
Ach it’s just like 1997 all over again. Remember the howls from the great and good in society, that big business would pack up and leave Scotland, following a majority YES-YES vote in the devolution referendum? Well, we did vote YES-YES, and they never left. Unfortunately, they are still here among us, howlin and greetin louder than ever about another YES vote.
Has Michelle Moan(sic) left Scotland yet ? As she promised
On Call Kaye this morning, they had Curtice mithering on about how these business’ were quick to come forward to say ‘Independence bad’ so why was there not any business’ coming forward for the ‘Independence good’ side, he ejaculated the notion that; no business thought independence was a good idea.
Despite the fact business people have come forward to support independence and that he’s essentially deployed a microcosm of the 40% rule by saying any business that wasn’t saying anything was basically against, which can’t be assumed to be the case.
How did he become a Professor if he can’t work out that business people have business’ to run so may not feel it appropriate to come down on either side?
I also note, none of these business-nay-sayers have been named.
To me, ‘Business community’ is just a euphamism for ‘tories’, who dare not speak their name. As has rightly been pointed out, the same whingeing happened when Devolution was proposed, and, indeed, the minimum wage.
Ignore them. The CBI presided over the Tories’ destruction of the UK’s industrial base without a whimper. They are not interested in ‘business’ or ‘industry’ just their own bank accounts.
Since the tax varying powers were never used, there was no impact on the business sector that they had feared pre 99. Also the SNP wasn’t running on the leftwing program that is espoused in this blog – in the 90s the SNP were promising a reduction in corporation tax in their manifestos!
However since it is inevitable that an independent Scotland will propose significant changes to the tax system, it’s not unreasonable for business leaders to point out that they’ll be the ones bearing the cost of implementing any change.
“There are no circumstances I can think of where ad-hominem attacks are acceptable in civilised conversation.”
Unless the target is Anas Sarwar or Michelle Mone???
Why do they always ask the opinion of the larger employers? What’s the difference between one company which employs 300 people and 300 people who are self-employed? They all run businesses, just the same. Most businesses in Scotland are small businesses anyway, but Ipsos Mori didn’t interview any of them. I would also be interested to know whether Ipsos Mori asked whether the bosses they interviewed had an existing political affiliation which might colour their outlook.
To interview a couple of hundred “bosses” of medium-large enterprises and to infer from that that “Scottish Business” as a whole (as if it were The Borg or something) thinks independence would be a bad thing, is ridiculous – they didn’t even ask over 90% of people who are in business in Scotland, that is, the owners of small businesses.
Willie, Is there not a Westminster budget every year with tax and investment changes for business to adapt to? Why are they not up in arms about all that yearly uncertainty created by the Union? These questions are rhetorical.
As it was a Tory poll perhaps the Tories just asked Tory members from ACROSS UK who were also “business leaders” for their “Toryesque” views.
@Willie Zwigerland
However since it is inevitable that an independent Scotland will propose significant changes to the tax system, it’s not unreasonable for business leaders to point out that they’ll be the ones bearing the cost of implementing any change.
Willie, I’m only aware, at present, of discussions around lowering corporation tax and airport duty, which should benefit business. I also remember a relative of mine managing to stay in business because of an abolition or, at least, reduction of council tax for small businesses. Has the government announced increases in business taxes that I’m not aware of? My relative would be grateful if you would clarify.
@Willie Zwigerland
Sorry, Willie, that should be Air Passenger Duty
Braco – the ‘problem’ is that if the Scotland tax system diverges from the UK tax system then there is a) an increased administative burden, b) all sorts of implications where people are working in England and paid by a Scottish company and vice versa and c) management time and energy spent assessing and dealing with this ‘problem’.
So I’m no more surprised by business leaders raising this issue then I am by say union leaders campaigning for workers rights.
Jeannie – if Scotland becomes independent at some stage Scottish or ‘Ruk’ politicians will propose a change to the system that triggers all the above.
Willie – “Also the SNP wasn’t running on the leftwing program that is espoused in this blog – in the 90s the SNP were promising a reduction in corporation tax in their manifestos!”
Whereas now they’re promising… Ah yes, that’s right, a reduction in corporation tax!
And the fact the UK currently shares a border with Ireland makes a mockery of the idea that cross-border tax differences would be impossible to manage.
Hi all
New poster. Long time reader. Just wanted to say a big thanks to all and espcially to The Rev for a fantastic blog… it is so good to get away from the daily grind of negativity…. and I am sure (like all of us who support independence for Scotland) it does get very, very wearing.
Now where is Scottish_Skier with something positive? 😉
“Unless the target is Anas Sarwar or Michelle Mone???”
You probably need to look up “ad hominem”, John. Criticism of the likes of Michelle Mone in this context is entirely relevant to the subject under discussion, since the piece is specifically about people who say independence would be disastrous for their business, of whom she is one. Jean Urquhart was writing about Scotland’s EU membership, not NATO or her personal relationship with the SNP.
“However since it is inevitable that an independent Scotland will propose significant changes to the tax system”
Is it?
Doug – not impossible, but there is an associated cost.
Rev – yes, let’s try a thought experiment, as you’re fond of those. In 2015 Scotland is independent. The Conservatives win the rUK general election on a manifesto of introducing a flat income tax rate of say 26%. What would the Scottish government do when this is implemented?
@Luigi
Ach it’s just like 1997 all over again.
Yes, very much so, and well all remember what happened then. Hence some people getting their knickers in a twist.
Wilie
the ‘problem’ is that if the Scotland tax system diverges from the UK tax system then there is a) an increased administative burden, b) all sorts of implications where people are working in England and paid by a Scottish company and vice versa and c) management time and energy spent assessing and dealing with this ‘problem’.
Well, for the last 16 years I have worked overseas (almost continuously) and have been paid by UK, German, French, Belgium, Italian, Austrian companies, the list is long. Strangely, although they all operate different taxation rules, They manage quite easily to pay me and attend to their responsibilities to their respective tax authorities.
Sorry, but this idea that an independent Scotland would impose huge problems for business is absurd.
@Willie Zwigerland
Not sure I’m really understanding what you’re getting at, Willie. Let’s say I’m a small business in an independent Scotland. I’m registered in Scotland. My business is located in Scotland. My employees and myself live in Scotland. There is a Scottish Tax Office. I pay them the appropriate taxes due. What’s the problem?
Or say, I’m a bigger company with branches both north and south of the border, but my headquarters is registered in Scotland. Both countries are, say, in the EU. We both use the pound. You just pay the appropriate tax. What’s the problem? It must happen all the time in countries that share borders and their business leaders seem to be clever enough to manage it.
But, if what you are saying is, that bigger companies will want to exploit the tax loopholes of the two individual countries in order to maximise their profits, rather than simply pay the appropriate taxes, then I can see how that might result in the increased manpower.
See Willie, that’s the kind of pish answer that was the reason I posted my questions as rhetorical. What you describe as drawbacks or ‘problems’ are in actual fact the existing variations on the exact same tax, administrative and legal landscape that business’s already inhabit. ‘Uncertainty’ is a yearly structural element and the price of democracy. Why not just give up all that tinkering done by the UK treasury and hand it all over to a pan European or better still Global body that can give business complete certainty and level unchanging market places. That is a single global business government. If that’s what you are arguing for then accept my apologies, if not then please explain why an existing Scots legal, taxation (both local and business) and general country wide business infrastructure system are any more or less likely to burden ‘Business’ here, than lets say any other neighbouring European nation. Sounds like ‘that border bad, this border good!’ type of typical British Nationalist analysis and I am sorely tired of it. All those oil companies can barely turn a profit, what with having to deal with all that petty Scots law nonesense instead of just using the normal worldwide gold standard ‘British’ legal system of English Law. I for one don’t know why they put up with it and don’t just take all their employment and multibillion pound business elsewhere!
I think Scotland should change the tax system, I live in Switzerland, my wife is self employed in one Cantun but we live in another, I pay tax in the Cantun where we live (i work abroad). We fill in one tax return, and get two bills – one combined for Cantun (region, I suppose there is a formula for the Cantuns to split the money) – gemeinde (local council) and another separate smaller bill for Federal (Central government much less than the other one central gov get most of their money from VAT and customs). Taxes based on income, seems fairly simple and fair to me. As I understand it as far as corporation tax goes each Cantun sets its own corporation tax rate, and guess what everything works just fine here, actually it is a very wealthy corner of europe. Not even in the EU… WHen i listen to Labour talking about corporation tax and income tax i wonder if they understand the difference? corporation tax can be set low to encourage business but income tax is high in order to redistribute wealth. We pay very high income tax, so what – it all goes to making a very fair society. As far as EU goes i think it is reasonable that the SG asks the EU for a clear decision on status, if they dont give an answer by mid 2013 then for SG to say ok we consider ourselves out and will apply for EFTA post 2014. That way at least everything would be clear. I suspect you would see the EU moving quickly..
Funny post, though not sure if the FSB are as culpable on this issue as others (such as CBI), have you seen anything in particular from the FSB to the contrary? I would also have a before and after financial crash picture of a banker, Superman in the first one and Oliver Twist in the second 😉
Whenever I hear people spout seemingly unfounded doom and gloom about the consequences of independence, I am minded to remind them of the consequences of staying in the union. As the Proclaimers song reminds us, they said that the factories would close down with 1979 devolution – then closed the factories anyway.
Interestingly (and off topic) I was speaking to someone from Helensburgh last week who was wondering if they should move house now as they thought that independence would lead to a massive drop in house prices near Faslane post 2014 – entirely possible I suppose, Dunoon became a bit of a ghost town after the US Polaris base went. I said they probably should move now if they wanted to move to the east coast, as post-independence it is more than likely that the area around Edinburgh will become even more expensive as Edinburgh hoovers up all the state jobs currently done in London. It would be nice if, say, the Scottish department for pensions was based somewhere like Helensburgh, Dumbarton or Clydebank, but I expect Edinburgh will grab it all for itself…
@Craig P
I think it would be a mistake to centralise even more government jobs in Edinburgh post-independence. You’d just be creating another London in the long run. It’d be nice to do things differently and spread the government jobs around more – after all, we’re not that big a country in terms of size and distance, with the exception that some places are quite hard to get to. Maybe if more government jobs were placed in Dundee or Inverness, we’d get better rail and road links to these places. There’s also a fair amount of government jobs in Glasgow already, including defence and they also have Scottish Enterprise,and SDI but independence would definitely bring in more civil service posts and provide good jobs and career paths for our kids. This is an area where I just don’t understand the unionists. Why would you want to retain a system which means your kids need to move away to get good civil service jobs when they could have them right here?
Jeannie, to leave Scotland has always been the Unionist default definition of ambition. Not only a handy way of siphoning off the true wealth of our country, the intelligence education and drive of generation after generation but also a handy way of ‘re locating’ any potential problem organisers and or political thinkers. If they are fighting, organising and agitating in some other country with like minded populations they are not doing it in ‘Britain’. It’s very interesting to see just how many of our diaspora have, down through the centuries, found themselves on the terrorist/freedom fighter lists of other nations.
Actually, might be easier to stick any new government departments in Falkirk. Then civil servants can stop complaining about how long it takes to get from Glasgow to Edinburgh, not to mention the exhorbitant cost of getting 40 miles along the road and back, standing most of the way and changing at Croy if you don’t get on at Glasgow. Wait a minute……Croy, you say?
Business leaders can lack imagination and be conservative with a small C – it’s easy to see the potential for headaches in admin where they did not previously exist. Since it’s an easy thing to do, they’re able to do it. My position ultimately is I’m not going to let a bunch of unimaginative unionists scare me into voting for Scotland to remain a region of the UK.
More detail about the poll I found somewhere last night, is that the business leaders in Scotland expressed concern about borders and barriers being erected to trade with the rest of the UK, and that this would need to be clarified.
So, not surprisingly at all, big business is wary of change over which it has no control. But as always, I daresay it will adapt to changes in circumstances.
To paraphrase Barroso: “I see no big business leaving Scotland, but I see plenty of businesses wanting to trade in Scotland”.
I daresay Ipsos Mori would find a very similar result south of the border, with businesses that trade in Scotland. Though mostly the impact would be less than businesses here.
I am not so sure business is as opposed to independence as some make out (Iain McMillan springs to mind). Jim McColl supports independence, Tom Farmer and Tom Hunter say they support fiscal autonomy and we know that is not an option now. Brian Souter obviously supports independence. Also, some of the business men that supported Devo-Plus have now said they are supporting independence.
Jeannie – I wholeheartedly agree that centralising public sector jobs post-independence would be a mistake – hopefully any post-independence government sees things the same way.
How do you embed on this thing?
http://youtu.be/YCuxabHGe5Q
Ah, it’s quite easy. Anyway this is related to your piccys.
http://youtu.be/CYL4xX0RPng
@Tyran
Beautiful. Says it all and no words required. Thanks.
Willie Zwigerland: Companies seek to maintain a profit margin, so in the event of an increase in the cost of supplies, or administration they will pass the increase to the customer. Should the customer decline the increased costs the company must then look to itself for cost savings. Or an improved product or service that inclines the customer to pay the extra cost.Or cease to offer that product or service.It is that simple.
In terms of Scotland’s independence, improved (= maintained vs the rUK’s privatisation trends) services arguably are tuition fees, free prescriptions, non-privatised NHS and etc. These services may or may not require increased across-the-board charges in comparison to rUKs charges (tax), to the customer.
A company/country may have other product lines to trade. and will face competition unless patents or technical barriers exist to ward off competition for these products. In Scotland’s case such product line examples are oil and gas, fishing, renewable energy,Scotch whisky. A company/country either has these products to trade or it doesn’t.A company/country cannot manufacture them.
For survival companies, and countries, must welcome and embrace change and seek out the opportunities that change brings. The theme of your points here seems to be of resistance to change.
“The meek shall inherit the Earth”. In my very occasional reflective pauses I’ve pondered on just what that means. And the term a “horizon person” – meaning “I wonder what’s the other side of that hill?.
The political philosophies of the Scottish and English peoples seem hugely different and whilst we could jointly enjoy the grand larceny of the Empire all seemed well. Not any more.lets get Scotland away from this grey decaying UK corpse.
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What the employers think is moot anyway as I understand from the Mayans the world ends on the 21st and it’s not even Alec’s fault I DEMAND to know what the SG are doing aboot it! 🙂
Scotsman; 22/12/12: Human civilisation collapses – Salmond Accused.
I reckon there are a large number of people (high profilers/big businesses and general public) who are not quite ready to show their hand with regards to Scottish Independence. Two years is a long way off. I believe the general public are not that involved in the debate nor have any interest in politics. At the moment all you have is the diehards on both sides. Big businesses and high profilers are not going to show their hand until the last year or so. I have my own wee business and although I personally believe in independence, I would be reluctant at this stage to promote a Yes vote through my business. As a small example, I no longer buy Mackies Ice cream, Tunnocks Teacakes, nor do I watch BBC Scotland and every other week the list gets longer. I even find myself going off celebrities who support the Union. So, I am quite sure this cuts both ways.
@Tyran
Those amazing shots of chimps and beagles demonstrate so well how we will win, eventually: SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE, SCARY YET IRRESISTIBLE!
@Tyran
I understand that beagles have the smallest droppings.