The future, coming soon
From a YouGov poll of young (18-24) voters today:
Now that’s quite the thing.
We’re not sure we’ve ever seen a UK-wide poll, even of a single age demographic, in which “Other” got more votes than any of the major parties, which is fairly remarkable in itself. But the Scottish sample is even more startling.
As alert readers will know, we have a general policy of not commenting on sub-samples, because there are all sorts of flaws with them. However, YouGov’s 285 respondents in Scotland (before weighting) is pretty large as sub-samples go, and more to the point the numbers in it are so spectacular that even if you factor in a LOT of error margin they still make extraordinary reading.
Firstly they show that far from being the Labour bastion of old, Scotland is now by a long way the party’s weakest outpost in the UK. Not only are Labour just one point ahead of the Tories, they’re behind the Greens. But the chasm between the leaderless Scottish branch office and the 95,000-strong SNP is of Grand Canyon proportions.
Historically, the young turn out in poor numbers compared to other age groups. But the explosion of energy and political engagement in the Yes movement since its defeat in September’s referendum suggests that might not be the case next May. The next group up (25-34) was also the strongest vote for Yes, with support for the big two Unionist parties in particular growing with proximity to the grave.
A combined 63% for pro-independence parties, even among just one age-group, is a statistic that’ll be causing outbreaks of shivering in a few party offices this season that won’t be down to the weather. And if it’s a harsh winter, the picture for Labour in particular will only get worse and worse.
Respect, in Scotland? Did they catch Gorgeous George on one of his forays north?
Stu, stop trying to bump me off
There will be, a shiver looking for a spine to run up, true enough.
Does that end column really say 69%?
we’re also the worst part of the UK for the Green party. SNP so dominant it’s squeezing the Greens. Must admit quite amazed at this. There’s a huge amount of people that are SNP first/Green second, Independence first/Green first Parliament.
It’s a troubling and positive thing for the Greens, I suppose. Not sure how they play their cards.
and there for all to see is the classification of Scotland as a Region… sigh…..
In the bleak mid-winter; to come for the unionists.
@ Ross
Influence the SNP and make bridges? There are a lot of SNPers who have a many Green attitudes at heart.
We’re also the worst part of the UK for the Green party. Must admit I find this amazing. There are so many people SNP first/Green second, Independence first/Green first Parliament.
The SNP are so dominant it’s squeezing them out. It’s must be a weird situation for them. Hard for them to play their cards right. But to be blunt, they’re performance in terms of electoral support at the ballot box has been fairly terrible set against their obvious potential.
I predicted on 19/09 that my 3 year old son would see an independent Scotland in his lifetime, and that he and I would see another indyref in my lifetime. I noted then that depending on how the next 12-18 months turned out, he might still be too young to vote in it.
Should have said 12-18 weeks, more like. Bring it on!
Reading downwards, the last column reads 1314 4 69.
Sounds good to me.
That old chinese curse seems very appropriate. We certainly do live in interesting times.
That’s a pretty big sample size Stu, is that normal ?
63% support for pro-indy parties in Scotland.
Holymoly!
Eh! how did Respect end up with 1%, when I was at school 0 + 0 = 0
@Ross
Different scenario but I give my Holyrood party vote to the Greens, constituency to the SNP. In a FPTP vote there is little point voting Green here in Stuart Hosie’s constituency even if I was inclined to. The Scottish Greens best hope is Independence.
Oh yes Stu, lets wipe the unionists out in Scotland , every last one .They sold out their own for personal gain. Roll on May and let the celebrations commence.
The kids are alright
The establishment, I think, is in for a shock come May next year.
In Scotland, any person of even average intelligence only needs to take a quick glance at the utter demonstrable lies coming from Labour and the Tories, to realise neither deserves your vote. The way they lied day in, day out, in the referendum campaign was something to behold.
Many, many young people who voted YES are ANGRY, at how cheated they feel by the lying Labour party conniving as it did with the London Tories. That anger has not gone away. In many ways, I think the sense of utter betrayal that young Scots feel about Labour, is akin to that lifelong revulsion which Scots who suffered from Thatcher in the 80’s still feel towards the Tories.
Had Labour genuinely pushed in the referendum for REAL (everything but defence and foreign affairs) devo max via a third question, they would by now be the absolute kings of Scotland. It would have been Labour selling out the Hydro instead of the SNP, but no, their petty infantile venom and hatred of the SNP got the better of them. Then they jumped into bed with Bullingdon boy David Cameron, to complete their descent into hell. It is no surprise that young Scots feel such utter, utter hatred towards Labour. They might NEVER be forgiven.
Between now and May, we all have a chance to work to make sure the utter travesty and betrayal of the referendum is rectified, and that will be achieved (in the Westminster first past the post system) by voting SNP. Nothing, and I really do mean NOTHING, will scare the bejeezus out of Westminster, than 30 plus SNP MP’s turning up at Westminster on 6th May, 2015. This will get us REAL powers for Scotland, instead of the diddy joke powers in the Smith pish.
Then a combination of pro Scotland parties for Holyrood in 2016 (Greens, SSP, SNP)
Let’s wipe lying London Labour off the Scottish electoral map for good.
Dear Dave, Ed, Nick and Nige please, please, PLEASE keep doing whatever it is that you are all currently doing cause you are all collectively doing wonders for the voting intentions of the people of Scotland in May 2015.
If only you lot of bampots could see what we, the people of Scotland can see you would really understand why. There again you don’t need to see for yourselves do you, being millionaires in all you know and understand EXACTLY what your machinations about austerity etc are doing to the people of Scotland.
I am told that SNP Students which used to have a couple of hundred members now has over 5000.
for goodness sake, just how badly are the sweaty socks going to let down the labour party?
Well that’s a very good start to the weekend, cheers Rev
Ross,
The fact is, that the Westminster system does not work well for smaller parties. The best bet for the greens (many of whose policies I like) will be in the Holyrood election, as the system is different.
A green vote in Scotland in May 2015 is a wasted vote. It is a terrible fact, and due to the silly Westminster system, but true.
Vote green/pro indy/SNP in 2016.
Wont get fooled again
I’m free
Who would think anything less?
1% in the south of England are in for a disappointment when they go to the polling station and can’t find either the SNP or Plaid Cymru on the ballot paper…
I’ll keep voting and supporting the SNP, despite some issues with certain policies, until we get independence.
Vis a vis the Green/ SNP situation , let’s get independence first then we can worry about Green, Socialist or SNP. Let’s get together and field just one independence candidate in each seat so that the vote isn’t split.
Do you know what I’d really love to see? All parties, irrespective of political stance, working together for the good of Scotland. All I can see up to now is Tories bitching about the SNP; Labour bitching about the SNP.; Lib/Dems bitching about the SNP. From where I stand it looks to me as though those three parties would rather see Scotland bleeding and on its knees than acknowledge the good that the SNP Government has done. How pathetically infantile is that.
Thanks Stu and well done.
That being the case,
GE15 is step one of the salvage operation.
So let’s get the Indy wreck on the surface
and make it seaworthy again.
Indy CANNOT, MUST NOT, SURELY NOT, BE LOST.
We all know the absolute heartbreak of IndyRef.
But since IndyRef, we’ve all had a look into Westminster’s crystal ball
and we’ve seen the nightmare coming at us.
So let’s just dump the excuses in the wheelie bin,
pack in the telly and join an Indy Party.
100,000 is a big number, but it’s only 6.25% of Yes voters.
Let’s get active and fight for our future
and, much more importantly,
for the future of our kids and their kids and their kids.
If they’re not enough to inspire and motivate,
then FIND SOMETHING THAT WILL.
There are SO MANY No’s out there who realise No was a bad mistake
and many others who are heading the same way.
But they might need some help to become a definite Yes.
So it’s all hands on deck.
We have GOT to win next time.
Now who says the young don’t care?
Very welcome after a pretty bad week.
Anyhow here’s something worthwhile….
Dear Nana
It may be cold outside but it’ll be warm on the pitch as football fans come together this Sunday to support the re-release of this fantastic anti-war song. Released twice in the last 20 years The Farm’s All Together Now became the anthem of our National Demo in June 2014 ahead of them performing for us in Parliament Square.
We’re now on board to help get this tune to Christmas #1 and to break the X Factor consensus! 80% of Mirror readers think it’ll make it, here’s what we have to say about it on our People’s Assembly website.
To link in with the campaign you can tweet photos of you and any football related activity on Sunday using #FootballRemembers. Get creative!
We’re also using hashtags #WelfareNotWarfare and #AllTogetherNow (and not in the way George Osborne thinks!)
Available to pre-order on iTunes: link to goo.gl
Available to pre-order at Amazon: link to goo.gl
Available to pre-order Amazon MP3: link to goo.gl
Available to pre-order at 7 Digital: link to goo.gl
That’s all for now folks, more on this from our partners at Stop The War
Come on then #AllTogetherNow!
The People’s Assembly Against Austerity
link to thepeoplesassembly.org.uk
All three BT parties are indeed going to pay a heavy price for the lies and deceit during the referendum. Did they REALLY think they could get away with it?
When I see these figures I also think of the similarities between Tony Blair and Gordon Brown.
Blair saw the writing on the wall and abandoned his party.
Brown can see the writing on the wall and will abandon his party.
Sorry Rev if there was something in my last post that put it into moderation.
Pay for your own education and vote No for more opportunities in teamGB, our imperial masters commanded. Pot bellied warmongering/troughing red and blue tories piss away Scotland’s wealth for decades and now its young Scotland that pays. Eggs Murphy/BBC etc say young Scots have to learn to love the teamGB bomb, austerity, slaughtering peasants, pay uni and college fees and shut up. Doubt it.
Good lord that a total wipeout.
link to electoralcalculus.co.uk
Ha – “with support for the big two Unionist parties in particular growing with proximity to the grave”. Stuart I’ve said it once this week and I’ll say it again I FORKIN LOVE YOU. (My wife ken’s)
There are also conservative types in scotland that beleave in independence. But they have no outlet for expresion or included in the indi debate. Westminster is the troll in the house. Not just the tories. I for one and voting 100% snp. But then want to vote for some kind of conservative concept. As i dont beleave in my heart in full on socialist economics.
This isnt a arguement. Its meerly a fact that non socialists are excluded from the indi debate because of the unfortunate position of only one party spearheading the indi campagne. Well. Ive saddled up with the snp till the mission is accomplished. Then scotland can set its own political stall out for trade. Thats what the referendum was meant to be about. Not a die hard single view of the snp. I think that ideal was what got Alex Salmond his hecklers.
I understand im talking about the dark side on the rebels turf here. But its something that didnt do indyref any good. It simply alienated tory or lib-dem voters that were FOR indy into voting against it IMHO
I went to see the Scottish Falsetto Sock Puppet Theatre at the Fringe Festival earlier this year. At one point, the audience of around a hundred was asked how they voted in the recent European elections:
“Who voted SNP?” – Big cheer.
“Who voted Labour?” – Total silence.
“… We don’t usually get that response till we ask who voted Conservative.”
Tick tock Scottish Labour, tick tock.
People saying they’re going to vote SNP and them actually getting down to the polling station to do it are two different things.Its going to take a massive effort of canvassing,leafleting and knocking up to get the result we require.Having 100,000 members is good,but it’s activists that will matter.Im optimistic we can get enough members to put in a wee bit of work.And it’s great fun too.I think we could do with a big,national leaflet run early in the new year just to give people something to do and get behind.
Wow.
I expect all YOUGOV polls to be a little suspect but these numbers are amazing. Ha ha , how the hell are Slab gonna spin these figures. Thanks for the lift for the weekend Stu.
Robert Louis
Spot on. The labour party are regarded as toxic to the younger voters as Thatcher was to us. I always struggled to convince older voters that labour lie but the younger ones are vocal about this. great observation.
If we have 30 plus SNP in WM , things are going to be hectic. We really could have the SNP as the largest party outwith the big two and holding the balance of power.
Farage and his gang will be crying in their beer
The union will not last at this pace.
Oh happy dayz
Robert Louis: “Had Labour genuinely pushed in the referendum for REAL (everything but defence and foreign affairs) devo max via a third question, they would by now be the absolute kings of Scotland.”
Yes, but never forget that the whole point of the Labour Party is simply to mop up discontent with the Blue Tories oop north, harness it and divert its energy, so that the status quo can safely continue. The Red Tories CANNOT do something that would be to the detriment of the Blue Tories. Jim Sillars explains this very well.
I was very worried that the momentum might have stopped after 18 Sep and everyone would be too tired, saddened, disillusioned. This is not the case — and everyone feels the same, it is as if the ghosts of William Wallace and Robert the Bruce have been sprinking something in the Scottish water supply! Jokes aside, I think the main reason is because it was not a fair fight (media, project fear, Broon), before I even get into my belief on a faked result (mainly because UK without Scottish oil is the Greek economy).
These young people will NOT be changed. It is great that new generations are growing up for whom the SNP and the Greens are the natural party to vote for. No more “we’ve always voted Labour in this household”, while the Lib Dems should really think about dissolving and just splitting between the other Tory parties to avoid constant humiliation and lost deposits…
Read ’em and weep Labour. You’re not going to spin your way out of the whirlwind this time. We are not going to retreat; if you thought the indyref that you won based on the lies, smearing and frightening of our older folks was justified in any universe…come May you will see just how seriously you misjudged the people of this country.
GIRFUTLOY
SNP has to get people canvassing Care Homes, esp. along the Moray coast.
From my observations at the referendum count, it d8dn’t slip my attention that there were batches of similar looking X’s in the No box. same hand, same pen.
These are people who are elderly and powerless to the MSM as well a many Labour councils.
I voted No.
But – I will 100% be voting YES in the next referendum and voting SNP in May. All the other No voters I know, bar one, will be doing the same.
I was very torn and wasn’t sure how to vote, in the end I guess I went with my head but should have listened to my heart all along. I like being part of the UK but I can’t take the way we are treated any longer. I think my story is very, very common with other No voters. I admit I was tricked and I’m so damn angry about it, about everything that Westminster peddled us…it will change. They are in for a shock.
If you ever thought BBC does not manipulate things to suit their agenda……………(and hope I am not betraying confidences) but a friend told me that the first question submitted to BBC Radio Scotland’s Big Debate at lunchtime to-day was along the lines of:-
What is it about London politicians that Scotland cannot be trusted to have responsibility for Corporation tax (offered to Northern Ireland) or an Oil fund (North of England getting Fracking fund), or abortion or broadcasting? Does the Panel agree with Johann Lamont that “We’re not genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions?
The BBC changed the question to solely about Northern Ireland getting corporation tax but not Scotland, then after a couple of contributions Gordon Brewer altered the debate to autumn statement UK growth austerity and UK deficit.
Now these are very worthy subjects but that was not the point of the question submitted which in the event was never put to the panel.
A little O/T – and yet
@liz on the power of the media by John Pilger.
link to johnpilger.com
__________________________________________________________
Thanks liz on posting the link to John Pilger’s article which is compulsory reading if you’re in any way interested in politics and the media.
Helps me see that IndyRef was a snowflake in a blizzard – but it was OUR snowflake!
But also, it points with others, to the real possibility that IndyRef was a hostage to propaganda and Westminster interference in the referendum administration process.
The conclusion is that the result, not the vote, was known in advance. It’s just that the whistle blower hasn’t yet come out to explain how it was done and by whom.
that’s what i call liberating, most of scotland is now awake.
in my head i am @ a celebration ceilidh, it’s your round and mine’s a double.
@manandboy
“There are SO MANY No’s out there who realise No was a bad mistake
and many others who are heading the same way.”
…. I certainly hope they are having second thought! They damned well should be!
Lesson One in how to tell if someone is lying to you.
Is the person a Unionist? Then there is a 99.9% chance that anything they might say to you in the political and economic sphere is a lie.
If the unionist is a politician, then it’s 100%.
Lesson over.
OT Stu I notice you’ve dropped the wee 45 stamp from the wings logo, any particular reason or just a wee change ?
@ K1 (5.35pm).
Square Haggis at 5.36
Problem in my area is that during the referendum campaign it was virtually impossible to deliver leaflets (far less canvass) sheltered housing complexes as according to Wardens “residents committees objected”.
The Scottish government / Electoral Commission should be issuing strong guidelines or decreeing by statute that democracy should prevail and by arrangement authorised party workers should be allowed access particularly in the six week period up to polling day.
Care homes are more tricky as often patients are vulnerable but at times that doesn’t politically motivated wardens etc abusing the democratic process.
Andrew Neil–Alan Cochrane–Jim Murphy love in daily politics shows you bbc carrying on as if nothing happened
roll on GE 2015
I can’t really get my head around this, what planet are they on?, is Wullie that far from reality!, what am I writing about ?, well the news that some of the formers Lib/Dems are thinking of standing for the Scottish Parliament !, I could not make this up, but they did!!, Wullie, I know your daft, but this?.
Well, we could hardly have hoped for better, but be ready for the BBC and MSM attack trying to boost the Unionist parties mainly Labour prior to the elections.
A vote of SNP in GE15 then, for SCO16, SNP in constituency and Green 1, SNP 2 in the list vote would do the business.
A (red, blue and yellow) Tory-free, Independent Scotland with a radical Green/Centre Left government sounds good to me.
Good to see Scottish Skiers 63% make an appearance in a new poll.
o/t latest from scottish news team…
link to youtube.com
Lesson Two – Why do unionist politicians lie all the time.
For the same reason that tobacco industry execs. always say that smoking cigarettes is not harmful.
If they told the truth they would lose their job and with it the salary, the career, the perks, the house, the car etc., etc..
This is the first general election I have ever looked forward to. I have long pondered the reasoning of folks voting labour instead of SNP, but the indyref seems to have concentrated minds. People now realise that in the event of a hung parliament a large SNP cohort will have huge power, whereas a vote for labour is simply bowing the knee to westminster control.
This time,GE15,we need to wake the 55 up to Westminsters shady dealings.
This is why Russel Brand is wrong and it’s vital that young people get out and cast their votes.
For too long our youngsters have been sidelined by the main political parties who design policies to appeal to the older generations who they know are guaranteed to vote in large numbers. This is why they can get away with introducing things like student fees.
Once it becomes clear to politicians that young people are engaging in the electoral process they will have no choice but to stop disadvantaging them.
@manandboy – That John Pilger article is terrifying but you can see it coming.
Re getting in to nursing homes, we have discussed this at a couple of WfI meetings.
Someone at the SNP women’s meeting in Ayr who is a chef said she arranged to go into some in her area with homemade soup, asked lots of questions and then went back with information.
I didn’t get a chance to speak to her but I would think that she would have needed permission before being allowed to do that.
Other suggestions were that we get folk involved through food-bank collection or tea afternoons and bring in politics as part of normal discussion.
link to bbc.co.uk Tired and emotional comedian Alan Cockers gets cut off by liggers in London but he states quite categorically that THE VOW was “dreamt up” by the Daily Rangers editor and he’s very good at it too, 44 mins in. Cockers says it is neverendum but THE VOW will “make it go away” and Jim Murphy will do it and save Labour in Scotland MP’s too. Blue and red Tory future of teamGB and 40 or so Labour troughers in the hands of the great man. No pressure Eggs, and nice to to see far right Torygraph piling in hard behind Murphy. Wonder why?
@Les Wilson
You are absolutely correct and not the first person to highlight this.
Let no one be in doubt that there will be some sort of collusion behind closed doors to prop Labour up in Scotland.
It is a difficult situation for Westminster to manage. Both major parties at Westminster want into power. One might think that it was better for the Blue Tories to let Labour lose out in Scotland… The reality is they will prefer an ‘average’ result for Labour in Scotland. They certainly won’t wish the SNP to have a landslide much less a complete wipeout.
Westminster parties are balancing a number of very difficult variables that lend themselves to uncertainty… Rise of UKIP, Milliband’s lack of popularity, austerity measures, EU referendum… and even EVEL and Barnett pressures.
This is a messy mix.
One priority for Westminster is to try to corral the SNP. An all party coalition (LabLibCon) would not surprise me now. It will be set in the context of economic imperative and UK survival.
This always was a Scotland – Westminster war, and it will continue as such.
Scots state pension is among the lowest in Europe.
Gas and electricity are among the dearest in Europe.
The elderly on the state pension in Scotland have a hard time especially in winter.
In Indy, the elderly voted, in fear, for the security of the status quo. Yes, I know, but that is what they did. They also believed that Gordon Brown, as a former Labour Prime Minister, could not tell a lie.
On the principle that if you want to be independent then act independently. What is to stop the Scottish Government from awarding pensioners a separate supplementary payment which would bring their pension up to the same level as , say, Ireland.
Similarly, so too the Winter Fuel Allowance.
Happy, secure pensioners are then protected from pension threats from unscrupulous Unionist politicians and are more likely to vote for Indy parties.
Sounds too simple really – there must a major flaw in it somewhere, if only I could see it. A million pensioners better off? Nah, must be a bad idea.
With 1 million elderly voters in Scotland, it is suicidal to leave them to the unionist wolves – like we did last time – and it cost Scotland it’s independence.
Are you there, Nicola?
Some time before May ’15 you will begin to hear about the ‘Silent Majority’. You will never see the SM before May and will never see it after May…indeed you will never see the SM on Polling Day. But when the votes have been counted the SM will have struck.
Never underestimate the Power of MI5/CIA.
@ClanDonald
Another way to look at it… the young of this country have been screwed over by past generations (in a sense by Westminster)
They leave school or university and they are immediately saddled with £78,000 of debt. If they are lucky enough to find employment, they will struggle to afford housing, if they get a mortgage and get on the ladder they will be hostage to our London centric economy.
Health wise and pension wise, it looks like more and more unaffordable for average earners.
Mainstream media headlines today are focused on Britain’s record national debt, which just surpassed £1 trillion, a figure that can only exponentially increase unless the entire mechanism of Government finance is overhauled. The truth however is much worse, factoring in all liabilities including state and public sector pensions, the real national debt is closer to £4.8 trillion, some £78,000 for every person in the UK.
http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk
@Roll_on 2014
Talking about my generation, it’s time to join together with those experiencing young man blues and achieve independence so there’s no more teenage wasteland. So when they say “We’re not gonna take it” I can’t explain except to say it looks like another tricky day for Labour.
I do hope our young people will spend a lot of time with their grandparents.
As a pro-independence pluralist. This data is delightful.
Quite odd to see that Scotland is the only region where anybody supports Respect though!
As I’ve said for a while now – Scotland will save the English from the Normans (Robert Peffers xx).
@Mealer
People saying they’re going to vote SNP and them actually getting down to the polling station to do it are two different things. Its going to take a massive effort of canvassing, leafleting and knocking up to get the result we require. Having 100,000 members is good, but it’s activists that will matter. I’m optimistic we can get enough members to put in a wee bit of work. And it’s great fun too. I think we could do with a big, national leaflet run early in the new year just to give people something to do and get behind.
^This, particularly the bit I have highlighted.
It is evident that the Tories having savaged the Welfare budget already, are going to dip back into this safety net for the vulnerable out of necessity to meet their predicted reduction figures. Where is left to find the 12 billion they are going to cut ?. A process of elimination of what has already been cut leads to the inescapable conclusion that pension benefits are on the list. Politically toxic indeed, but would be after the next election, and seen as a worthwhile risk to stabilise their financial forecasts.
@ Piemonteis 7:05 – very clever of them to track one down!
FYI, although only being pedantic, per this week’s e mail SNP claim 100,000 members.
The Elephant in the Room has still to be discussed
The Better Together campaign recognised that only 26% of Scots are attached to the Uk the hardcore unionists if you like
Key was the million pensioners
And the half million folk from south of the border who have chosen to now live in Scotland
Thus pensions and YES being anti English a campaign No successful faught
Now for Scotland to grow its economy it needs to grow population
And only way it can now do is to attract more folk from south of the border
The Elephant being 70% of that Demographic voted No
Nice to see. The young tend to be idealist in any event and I remember my own days of protest at anything which struck me as unjust. This however feels somehow different in a way I cannot adequately put into words. I have seen such determination, endurance, and commitment growing towards the cause of freedom and promoting self belief. Perhaps in my hayday protest was a cool thing to do. It is now replaced with a sense of real purpose and a sense of what is right. I take my hat off to the young
Guess how many SNP MPs we’ll have in Westminster Mr Cameron, guess, no just guess, go on guess, at least try one guess, c’mon…..he he he
“Midlands/Wales”
WTF?
@ Dougie,
A number of English people I know LIVING HERE, actually voted yes in the referendum. This may in part be a reflection of what we are seeing down south ,ie that people cannot decide who is the least” worse” candidate if you like. Hence the rise of U.K.I.P. I think people see the Scottish Government functioning well under very challenging circumstances and that has definitely made a difference to the people that I know. Their home is here now, and though some of their heart and family remain in England, they absolutely love staying in Scotland. This may of course vary considerably.
@ Dougie
Another way to increase the population is to make it worthwhile for people who would otherwise have left to stay. There are also places that are neither Scotland nor England whose natives might like to come here.
So not the “only” way.
Over a decade (1997-2007) Slabber has lost almost half its membership.
From a peak of 30,000 in 1997 to a reported 17,000 in 2007.
Trying to obtain accurate recent figures has proved impossible.
Depending on who you believe there has been various figures circulating ranging anywhere from 13,000 downwards. Although most of us believe its a lot closer to half that amount i have quoted the 13,000 just to be kind to the red tory ("Tractor" - Ed)s – the one and only act of kindness they’ll get from me.
Here is a very revealing article from March 2008, the year after the SNP took over. And the rest, as they say, is history.
link to archive.today
I keep hearing on the MSM about a Nationalist Party –
But I only know of a National one.
Eh ken Paula.
They’re obviously taking a leaf out of your book and stroking the terminology.
There is alot of positivity in the movement right now and long may it continue- its reflected in the poll as young folk are more likely to embrace change and positivity rather than the old fear agenda. Yes Edinburgh North and Leith are back in business with a great wee leaflet talking to Yes and no voters. All good stuff.
So I’d like to talk about negativity instead.
The anti BBC protests need to be broadened and focused at the same time.
Caz-m keeps hammering the message of the unholy trinity in Scotland – labour, daily record and BBC sucking the life from the country and poisoning the debate – our real enemy is this grand coalition of these 3 rotten, nepotistic organs.
We on Wings know this but the wider populace are still suckered in and imbibe silage from at least one organ every day. Anti SNP, pro labour every fucking day and it is getting worse.
Is there a way that we can get what Caz-m keeps highlighting into the national consciousness?
It might take a cartoon or a t-shirt slogan or a demo but we get this across to the average punter and we win. Something simple is needed to get this complex message across.
@crazycat at 8:13 p.m. (replying to @Dougie at 7:36 pm re. ways to increase Scotland’s population)
– actually, my mate tells me there’s another way that is apparently much, much more enjoyable (downside being you have to wait for 16+ years until they’re eligible to vote …)
Still, ah’m no in any hurry. Anybody else??
(Sorry Rev, zat me in moderation??)
“Dougie says:
5 December, 2014 at 7:36 pm
The Elephant in the Room has still to be discussed
The Better Together campaign recognised that only 26% of Scots are attached to the Uk the hardcore unionists if you like”
But wasn’t it 27% of No voters that felt strongly attached to the UK? = 14.93% of voters = 12.69% of electorate?
Dr EW says
“@Roll_on 2014”
WHO–OO ARE YOU?
link to youtube.com
Paula Rose SAYS
“I do hope our young people will spend a lot of time with their grandparents.
Mine do,
they think I’m mad
It might have something to do with me convincing them I have a doorbell for my shed.
Sorry Rev and others for disrupting your serious suff – but john king, big cuddle honey.
Right back atya Paula Rose
Last post I can see on this thread is by John King at 8.52.
Over on O/T the last comment is by Briandoonthtoon at 8.48.
It’s now 9.41.
Horribly, damagingly slow.
By the time this comment appears the others will have loaded and it won’t look so bad, but these big delays are wrecking any chance of real discussion.
Perhaps unavoidable, but a shame all the same.
Fat Boab (Im actually talking to fat boab) says
(Sorry Rev, zat me in moderation??)
Naw bit Doug micht gie ye anither keeker!
Ian Brotherhood @9.42
do you know whats causing it Ian?
Hi Ian.
I’ve been flitting back and forward between here and ‘off-topic’ for the past couple of hours; any post I’ve done has appeared within seconds.
Mind you, I don’t know if others are suffering delayed posts so I can’t say if I’m not seeing stuff.
The latest post I’m seeing as I type this is John King at 9.46.
(John – Pete the camera has badges for you and Irene.)
Then JK at 9.50.
2011 actual result
SNP 53 + 16 = 69
Lab 15 + 22 = 39
Tory 3 + 12 = 15
LibDems 2 + 3 = 5
Indy 0 + 1 = 1
Greens 0 + 2 = 2
If all SNP votes on the List had been for SSP/green
SNP 53 +0 = 53
Labour 15 +7 = 22
Tory 3 + 5 = 8
LibDems 2 + 0 = 2
Indy 0 + 0 = 0
Greens/SSP 0 + 44 = 44
Okay, I take it all back – maybe just not as busy as we were used to (sniff)…
Hi Ian.
Are your refreshing/reloading a page when you go back to it?
I’m seeing my last post in ‘off-topic’ at 9.25.
IB -honey -let’s keep quiet about such things honey, can I have a stroke (shudder).
Am I supposed to be coming any time soon?
@Tam Jardine
I remember a bill board advert in aberdeen by the SDP from the 83 election which had the lion, the tin man and the scarecrow from the wizard of oz with the leaders of all 3 main parties morphed onto their faces steel/thatcher/foot
below was the caption
I wish I had some courage, I wish I had a Heart, I wish I had a brain
there is another choice SDP etc
i wonder if someone better with graphic software couldnt knock something up for you along these lines
Briandoonthetoon
What badges?
Irene’s acquired quite a collection,
they will be a part of our history one day.
I noticed your comment on O/T Paula Rose,
about anger management
If anyone here has no issues with anger they need to see a doctor quick,
cos they’re probably deid!
just one
link to youtube.com
I pray that this comes to pass in May. A word of warning though, the MSM/red tory lie machine will do all they can to try and prevent this.
If the reptile Galloway ventures north again, we can just set Patrick Harvie on him, he’ll not have wee Ruth to defend him this time and he’ll disappear.
Dougie
We don’t need immigration until we have Independence and once that is achieved, all new Scots will recognise that they will have made the right choice in moving here and wont want to go back to their former homes, particularly those from South of the Border.
Shrodinger’s Cat
Those figures / potential figures need to be hammered out to Yes voters. If the main aim is a pro-Yes parliament, the voting SNP/Green, SNP/SSP or potentially SNP/Left Project, can produce more valuable results than voting SNP/SNP.
I think the SNP will also be aware this might happen (although won’t encourage it), meaning the party’s current list MSPs will have to put a hell of a lot of work to win constituency seats.
Although if the Greens stand in some (or most?) constituencies in 2016, the pigeons and the cats might be mingling.
One of the main reasons those who can least afford it are to be forced to contribute excessively to the task of easing the UK’s fiscal debt is a failure of governments to collect tax due from individuals and companies
Something needs to be done and soon.
I have compiled a few videos the content of which provides worrying information. Of concern is that the information is in the public domain yet successive governments fail to act in the interests of the UK preferring to look after themselves
link to caltonjock.com
Ross and other Green Party supporters.
Bide your time – once the battle is done, Greens will be SNP’s biggest opposition. What a dream parliament that will be – ethical, people first government.
Lets all vote for a ton of different parties and do our best to vanish up our own backsides, what pub are these people drinking in? who are these people? God! it reminds me of bloody school, always the kids with the strange haircuts and odd shoes, who’da thunk they’d grow up the same way. If you want a thing, you take the thing, then you decide how you share the thing out later… Vote The SNP Thing…is it just me?
Off topic – my moment of delight at seeing the National finally in my local Tesco, was somewhat marred by a very doddery, elderly lady staggering towards me and reaching across me to get the Daily Rancid, and her muttering “They keep moving it”
I thought, I hope its those fellow Wingers that come in and move the Rancid bundle around!
Anyone fancy watching this wee YT clip of Murphy being interviewed by Andrew Neil, and telling us what happens after 10 seconds?
I only ask because I’ve tried umpteen times, and it always freezes at that same point. Comments have been disabled for the video, so I can’t tell if anyone else has had the same problem.
link to youtube.com
Not a lot of chat about the destruction of what the British people treasure, silly referendum over – back to business as usual.
schrodingers cat
Aye – something along those lines. Will think on it and try and come up with something.
I keep thinking of M C Escher and his paradoxical drawings – one hand drawing another, folk trudging up those endless staircases, fish turning into birds.
Maybe roses morphing into the wee saltire butterflies. With a simple slogan.
And no, I’m not having an indyref acid flashback.
Ian Brotherhood
it plays fine, but i’m none the wiser having seen it.
‘In a time of universal deceit – telling the truth is a revolutionary act’. (Eric Blair – also known as George Orwell)
@Roll_On_2014
We’re Not Gonna Take It
5:15 (no:yes ratio next time)
I’ve Had Enough
Join Together
MARGOing mobile
OT
Ronnie Anderson
Some info for you on OT (if it appears) x
@Moira Currie says:
5 December, 2014 at 4:46 pm
Vis a vis the Green/ SNP situation , let’s get independence first then we can worry about Green, Socialist or SNP
Thats not the way political parties work – SNP must run some SNP/Green and SNP/Socialist candidates if they want to try for 59 seats.
political parties have to win elections to advance thier organisations , finances , moral and ideas
I expect you all thought this one had been attended to and put to bed. Indeed it hasn’t. They are just careful to follow the rules. Information available to the public only applies to purchases over £550. The way forward is to spread the cost over a number of cards. Gold card spending is not reduced since the time of exposure the reverse is the case.
It seems also that the cards are extended to MP’s who charge expenditure to their card and justify the bill to the commons authorities.
I despair Scotland is a nation and needs to be free of this lot
link to caltonjock.com
@fred blogger –
Thanks.
Must be some glitch at my end – can’t seem to get any YT clips to play beyond the 10 seconds…weird but true.
I can only wonder what I’m missing.
Ian Brotherhood.
its something like look theres a squirrel.
Is it me or are they trying to make the departed Johann look good?
Ian Brotherhood
your’re missing the wondrous world of murphy with neil trying to get a straight answer, several times, over the devolution of taxation.
and the questions relationship between slab and what the other parties, lab hq, libdems, tories, are saying.
Ian Brotherhood says:
5 December, 2014 at 11:11 pm
I fell for your cunning trap. You are just trying to get us to watch Murphy….I now remember why I don’t watch clips of him.
That one image fills my heart with joy. We’re on the right track now. CHOO! CHOO!
Ian B
Try an update to your flash buddy. Had the same thing happen to me last week but the update done the trick.
regarding the pensioners voting Labour. We can involve them more with our families. After all pensioners are the mums and dads as well as grandparents . Talking politics with your kids is great. My two are very clued up from facebook and tweets. They are up for change big time.
The young are showing the way by including everyone. Time we paid more attention to our elders and involved them.
I speak to a few everyday and leave wee hints about what SNP are doing to stop the cuts damaging everyone. Come the spring and better weather we should get them out with the gatherings. Many pensioners in my area where out canvassing for months during the ref. It was my age group 50-60 that refused to listen.
We win over the pensioners we win our freedom. Simples
Tam Jardine.
Great point tam
We need a slogan to unite us all. Put it on t-shirts and mugs. YES is old and No voters don’t like it. So how about some ideas for a new slogan folks.
Scotland first. Yuk sounds like the BNP.
Scottish Alliance. the young will hate it .
Clan Alba is my effort.
any more idea Wingers ?
Cadogan
“Thats not the way political parties work – SNP must run some SNP/Green and SNP/Socialist candidates if they want to try for 59 seats”
You’re quite correct. It isn’t the way political parties work. The SNP are never going to encourage their voters to vote for another party. However, there’s nothing to say it can’t be how the electorate works. If the electorate realizes that migrating their second vote can lead to more pro-independence MSPs, then surely that’s a good thing.
And surely independence is more achievable if we have 97 SNP/Green/SSP MSPs through tactical voting (as per Schrodinger’s calculation) than 69 SNP and 2 Green MSPs like we voted for in 2011. Personally, I didn’t like being buggered over by the unionist parties this year, and I would like the chance to bugger them back in 2016.
Obviously 2015 is a different matter, and I realize that talking about tactical voting in 2016 might be confusing things a little.
About the Greens, while many are full on for Independence there is a group who are not so they are slightly divided. However many have changed their minds since the 18th.
Auld Rock
Sorry Cadogan,
I just read your post again and realized your first paragraph was Moira’s quote.
Hi all. Comedy gold from Curran later today.
Wont archive so here it is from Herald.
Even Sturgeon believes Scots should vote Labour in 2015 to dump the Tories, claims Curran.
EVEN Nicola Sturgeon agrees that Scots should vote Labour to make sure David Cameron??s Conservatives do not win the 2015 General Election, Margaret Curran will say today.
EVEN Nicola Sturgeon agrees that Scots should vote Labour to make sure David Cameron??s Conservatives do not win the 2015 General Election, Margaret Curran will say today.
The Shadow Scottish Secretary will make the claim about the First Minister in a speech to a Labour summit in Perth when she is also due to attack the SNP, accusing it of trying to ??sound Labour??.
Her speech to the party’s Scottish MPs and General Election candidates comes after recent opinion polls showed a slump in support for Labour and after the Nationalists saw a dramatic rise in their membership following the independence referendum.
Last month, one snapshot put support for the SNP for the May election at 45.8 per cent compared to just 23.9 per cent for Labour. Such a result could see a significant drop in the number of Labour seats in Scotland, which currently stands at 41. In contrast, the SNP could see its presence at Westminster rise considerably from its current six seats.
In her speech, Ms Curran will rally her party behind Labour??s planned social policies and will insist the cross-party vow of more devolution has been delivered by the Smith Commission agreement and the debate has been ??settled?? and has moved on to how to use the new powers.
Ms Curran is expected to say: “The question the vast majority of Scots now want an answer to is ‘how are you going to make me and my family better off?’ And all the parties in the next election have to answer that question.”
“Here in Scotland only Scottish Labour has a clear answer,?? she will declare, outlining Labour??s key policies to:
*freeze energy prices and save every Scottish household £120;
*ensure the recovery is fair by introducing a 50p tax on people earning £150,000 or more and lift people out of tax with a new 10p starting rate and
* fix the economy by drawing a line under low-paid and insecure work by ending exploitative zero-hours contracts and raising the minimum wage to £8 an hour over the course of the Parliament.
“That’s a fair and funded plan from Labour in the face of not a single progressive policy proposal from the SNP,” Ms Curran will add.
In response, the Nationalists branded her speech ??desperate stuff??, that showed Labour was ??panicking?? in the face of polls which suggested they would lose a raft of seats in Scotland at the next election.
Far from enjoying, “the best of both worlds” Scotland is now burdened with, “the worst of all worlds” where a cabal of “on message” Tories and civil servants, (including the civil service in Scotland) controlled and directed by Cabinet Secretary and top civil servant, Sir Jeremy Heywood decide upon the fate of Scotland behind the securely closed doors of No 10 Downing Street. Exit in great haste, Gordon Brown, whose lack of influence over the unfolding disaster he generated is evident, even to the least politically minded of Scots.
link to caltonjock.com
@YESGUY –
Thanks for hint – will try.
re possible slogan, how about
NAE MERR PISH!
The Younger you are, the more Risk averse you are and willing to take chances (not that independence would be taking a chance). I was a member of the SNP in my youth (around the time of the last referendum but I ended up voting No as I was brainwashed) I then became a media puppet & started voting Labour like my parents. I just hope they don’t make the mistakes as I did and fall for the romanticism, then listen to the constant brainwashing that may of us were subject to in our youth
Cockers downfall
link to autonomyscotland.org
call me dave says:
Hi all. Comedy gold from Curran later today.
Wont archive so here it is from Herald.
Even Sturgeon believes Scots should vote Labour in 2015 to dump the Tories, claims Curran.
Come in boat 69 you time is up!
Doctor, I need help. I’ve got a problem.
The UK has a problem which unless it is remedied will prevent the entire population from recovery to normal health.
The ‘problem’ is actually an injustice. But it is of such proportions and contains an element of such ingrained intransigence, that no one to date has been able to offer an acceptable solution.
Meanwhile, the patient, the UK, continues to suffer grieviously. Or at least part of it does.
The UK’s malady is this: In the period leading up to 2008, the world’s bankers gambled irresponsibly and illegally – and lost – very heavily.
The UK Establishment, which includes the bankers, decided that the lower classes should pay for the ruling classes’ gambling losses.
Those responsible for plunging the entire country into financial ruin, were rewarded for their recklessness with eye-watering bonuses, while the innocent working classes together with the poor and disabled, were charged with the responsibility of restoring the country to solvency.
Successive UK governments since, first Labour and then ConLibDem coalition, have maintained this position.
It is worth noting, I think, that this situation could only arise in a class system such as exists in the United Kingdom.
The reality of this problem confronts us everyday.
The Government persists in it’s Establishment solution of making the lower classes pay for the folly of the upper classes, while at the same time, the upper classes are both unaffected and undisturbed.
This unjust transfer of responsibility for the debt from the rich to the poor is the malaise afflicting the UK today. It is certain that until it is remedied, the UK cannot recover.
Enter Scotland.
The view from north of the border, is that the disease seems incurable. England is infected with the deadly virus, neo-liberalism, which is both widespread and ingrained among the ruling and business classes.
No cure has yet been found and many are in denial.
A canny appraisal of the situation by those Scots capable of being canny, has led many to realise that those with the disease should be isolated, leaving independence as the only realistic solution. The rest is history and we’re still living it.
As those reckless bankers will tell you, when the dice stop rolling, the bets have to be paid. Unfortunately, the English establishment don’t have the funds to meet their gambling debts. They turned to Scotland to pay them. But Scotland has decided, after an initial error of judgement, to decline the offer of future generations living in unjust poverty.
The case has been decided in the court of Scottish public opinion and the defendant, the Establishment, has been found guilty. The final resolution awaits.
Ps. The Cybernats have now completed their degree course and are now Online Political Journalists – OPJ for short.
Their interim motto is ‘The truth is for living’.
Sorry Rev, OT,
Morrison’s, Carmondean, Livingston, are selling the NATIONAL.
Call me dave
link to archive.today
First time using archive so hope it worked! The site is like the matrix! Very cool, everyone should try it.
I don’t have a sub to the herald so probably won’t show up. Anyhoo, utterly insane from Mags.
“lift people out of tax with a new 10p starting rate”
*Beep* *Beep* *Does not compute*
That has to be a troll article.
“In response, the Nationalists branded her speech desperate stuff, that showed Labour was panicking in the face of polls which suggested they would lose a raft of seats in Scotland at the next election.”
So the SNP have responded to a speech which hasn’t been made yet? wtf?!
Ian Brotherhood says
“Anyone fancy watching this wee YT clip of Murphy being interviewed by Andrew Neil, and telling us what happens after 10 seconds?”
Well, after Andrew Neil asked him about Labours policy to devolve all income tax to Scotland,
he— well—
he did this!
link to youtube.com
Graham Scott @ 3.54
I read that bizarre Mags Curran comment and tried to log on to the Scotsman, seems they still hate me
don’t these people EVER forget?
So I’ll have a rant at you lot (its ok its ok the vein is sleeping
)
Lets Dance mags!
“EVEN Nicola Sturgeon agrees that Scots should vote Labour to make sure David Cameron’s Conservatives do not win the 2015 General Election, Margaret Curran will say today.”
ARE YOU FUCKING INSANE MAGS
your party is as poisonous in Scotland as Thatchers creatures were/are!
“In her speech, Ms Curran will rally her party behind Labour’s planned social policies and will insist the cross-party vow of more devolution has been delivered by the Smith Commission agreement and the debate has been settled and has moved on to how to use the new powers.”
MOVING ON!
“Here in Scotland only Scottish Labour has a clear answer,” she will declare, outlining Labour’s key policies to:”
Eh!
link to archive.today
Thanks Graham.
Looking again through that (mercifully) short article I cant see something I saw earlier (dont know why) and it was to the effect the SNP are trying to be Labour,
I kid you not, she claimed the SNP were apeing Labour! WHAT
OK calm down John, you how the vein gets when you start getting wound up, deep breath whoooooo,
Right
lets dance!
LABOUR CANT APE LABOUR YOU CRAZY BITCH
YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN WHAT LABOUR WAS,
Mags if I were you I wouldn’t take any more of those Rennies that nice young lad in the paper overalls and the whistle gave you for your heartburn when you were “getting down with the kids” at that rave last night.
Hi John King.
Personalised ‘Wings Over Glasgow’ badges from the get-together a couple of weeks ago.
We thought you’d be there but you got lost.
Anyone wondering if they’re paranoid should keep an eye on Catalonia.
An investigative journalist of some standing has alledged that the Home Secretary of Spain has a unit of at least 30 people, off the official police organisation chart and linked to internal police-on-police investigation, fishing in the lives of independentist politicians to uncover or invent compromising material, which is then fed to selected journalists, the conventional police, the courts etc.
The unit was first suspected when the last Catalan elections were skewed by what proved to be false corruption accusations from an apparently leaked police report, headlined against the Catalan president in the week before the election. The Home Secretary sat on complaints and they were never clarified.
Now the work of this journalist appears to have unearthed the possible source and the Home Secretary has been called by several parties to appear before the Spanish parliament to explain. So this is more than just a rumour.
Will report any interesting results, but if this is happening in Spain why couldn’t it or something similar have happened in Scotland?
Marga
It did or something else like it, the BBC for example, did.
I’m not used to this, it’s positively scary; being a part of the majority I mean. When I was in my teens our local councillor tried to recruit me as a member of the Progressives and forecast I would eventually grow up and join the Tories. The SNP I joined in 1967 had an annual meeting in Leslie’s snug; the SDP which I joined just after David Owen (there’s not much of an SNP presence in England), was so small I knew every one of the Gang of Four personally. I toyed with joining the Greens but so far have remained independent but might consider joining the Labour Party as I’ve always had a penchant for the underdog.
One result of next May, with the SNP chewing into the Scottish Labour vote and UKIP chewing into much of the Tory vote … could be for the Tories and Labour to go into a Grand Coalition, as a way of heading off all the various fringe factions. This has happened in Germany a few times:
link to en.wikipedia.org
Could it happen here?