Simon Jenkins in the Guardian, 12 August 2013:
“Labour’s senior figures, notably Ed Balls, have assuaged their contortions of guilt with much sound and fury, but little by way of alternative policies. Miliband and Balls have concentrated on noisy performances in parliament, with some effect, but have failed to emerge as plausible national leaders.
Their programme has been a pale imitation of the Tories. They are for cuts, but not too deep, for glamour projects, for monetary caution, for the Afghan war. A fear of seeming too leftwing has led them to fudge every opportunity the ineptitude of the coalition has offered them, on welfare capping, on immigration, on the NHS, on housing.
It is hard to see the British Labour party as a leftwing party at all.”
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John Harris in the Guardian, also 12 August 2013:
“Whatever Labour does, the public seems to have fallen out of love with politicians so comprehensively that the idea of some 1997-esque new dawn seems laughable. Besides, the party leadership is putting a lid on any high-flown expectations.
In the event that it wins, austerity, we know, will remain; ask any Labour insider what they might do about such totems of Tory misrule as the bedroom tax, and you will be met with furrowed brows, and an insistence that no commitments can be made.
This is surely the defining feature of the early 21st century. The Labour party occasionally tries to put things the right way up, but too often, it seems to accept the toxic settlement the coalition have embedded.”
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They know, in their heart of hearts, or deep down in their souls (putative), that the UK is beyond repair or redemption. The toxic debts of the banks and the country are still there.
The only way out for us is to vote YES,
Hail Alba
Makes you wonder why the NO campaign persist with the U KOK poster campaign.
Evidently the UK is not OK – the only option for us is a YES vote!
If only we could get Scotland’s Labour voters to take in those quotes from Jenkins and Harris – to see Labour politicians for what they really are.
As far as I can see the Labour shadow cabinet are confused as to what their policy platform is so what chance the electorate? The only thing they seem to stand for is re-election.
Labour voters love being ruled from Westminster.
Labour politicians love Westminster life; the expense accounts, the lifestyle, escaping Scotland.
Scotland is where they can manipulate the vote; both the living and the dead and where voters vote for Labour because their grandparents voted for Labour 50 years ago when there was a reason to vote Labour.
Scotland is where they get their cannon fodder for ‘wars’ in foreign lands and where nuclear experiments are carried out and nuclear waste dumped.
Scotland is for taking the pish out of and none do it better than Labour.
Vote YES for a better future.
@ Seasick Dave,
…voters vote for Labour because their grandparents voted for Labour 50 years ago when there was a reason to vote Labour.
The reason to vote Labour back in the 1950s and 1960s was to get rid of the Tories.
What is the reason now?
Adrian
What is the reason now?
>>>Shakes head, shrugs shoulders and looks at feet<<<
Labour are back in the Gordon Brown situation: they’ve noticed (as usual, much later than everyone else) that their leader is a fruitcake. Que faire? If they’re going to dump him, it has to be now, later would be too late. Who would be better? Probably anybody, but have they learned anything from the Brown Disaster? Will they move or will they freeze? Zugswang.
BTW, reports that McLetchie is dead.
Labour are the most deceitful party,especially in Scotland, as others have said they would woefully miss the Westminster trough, pray the reality gets through to their voters. Vote Labour get either Tories, or their adopted policies.
We are trying our hardest to get the polls covered by Scotland Tonight.
https://www.facebook.com/scotlandtonight/posts/458970970876848?comment_id=2645264&reply_comment_id=2645416&offset=0&total_comments=52¬if_t=feed_comment_reply
Will we succeed?
It seems to me that if you insist on being the second in command of running the world; ready to go to war (including nuclear war) at a moment’s notice upon orders for the White House, you cannot reasonably be expected to feed the poor and look after the elderly.
In the end it depends what you consider more important: running your own country to the relative satisfaction of its people or being America’s lieutenant. There’s simply not enough money for both.
“Will we succeed?”
Doubt it, sadly. They’ve already advertised they’re having Mark Millar on to talk about movie violence, though they haven’t mentioned a second topic. I’ll give you evens that it’s Rangers and they’re too embarrassed to say.
Robert Kerr,
You are very right on the UK debt. Recently, I received an article from an American financial website talking about world debt levels. They said that almost all major countries are being swallowed in debt. They went on to say that the UK was the country with the most debt. Not a thing Westminster will be shouting about.
Sooner rather than later this will come home to roost. Scotland needs out of it and soon. I hope 2014 will be early enough!
You can forget any coverage of the WoS poll with the death of David McLetchie.
I note in the first reports concerning the demise of the former Tory leader there were comments by all party leaders, except Johann Lamont.
The updated stories now have message of condolence from Johann Lamont but it all seems rather late in the day. A poor show by Scottish Labour.
As someone who voted Labour in the past I have a sentimental attachment to the party I once believed stood for something. I am sure there are still some good and honest Labour MPs. I have always liked John McDonnell..unfortunately he isn’t liked so much by the Labour Party heirarchy.
The policies of the SNP are more akin to what I would expect of Labour and that is why I have moved. I think an independent Scotland would also revitalise Scottish politics. Labour (and possibly the Conservatives too) might then lose the Management Consultant focus group look and start representing people again.
The current moves by Labour to fend off UKIP over immigration is just a bit weird and judging by the backlash of comments in the English press not desperately convincing.
Max
They will ignore our request to discuss this latest poll in the hope that it would go away! As Rev said the second topic will be Football!
We can only try I suppose.
Better to have tried and failed than to have never tried at all.
From what I can make out it looks like STV will not cover the Poll as they do not like the result of it.
I have always felt that STV were biased toward the union. Now I know.
The poll results are out there. Every Yes Campaigner being interviewed should know the bullet points and when used they will have impact. No one can deny knowledge. I love unintended consequences!
Every person who believes in an Independent Scotland should be bring this poll up in ANY interviews with the MSM, particularly when on TV. They will see how quickly the interviwer will trry and shut them down. Just the same as they did with the McCrone report and the D. Healey expose!
YOU CAN FOOL SOME OF THE PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME, BUT NOT ALL OF THE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME
O/T regarding David McLetchie’s death … BBC has a quote from Lamont! (shock) 😮
Famous15
Yes the results are out there and they are popping up on Facebook and elsewhere, I like the natty do-nut graph showing the number that would vote for the Union if we were independent now. These need to be used as they are backed by a kosher poll. and can put in flyers and the like as easy to read eye-bites. Although the media nd BTers have assidiously ignored the results you can bet they have all read them.
Be not down hearted 🙂
Labour are absolutely rudderless and gutless, it’s a case of doing nothing, offering nothing, hope that nobody notices and still be seen as a better ‘alternative’ to the current government while admitting they will carry on with the same policies. That recipe is of unelectibility. The more that Miliband gets up on a podium to sound like an aggressive dead sheep the more people will be turned off by him, and keep in mind the people he has to persuade to vote for him (ie middle England). He just does not sound good and even worse when there is no ideas or vision he can offer. How many times are we going to hear “these cuts are wrong” over and over again as his main line of attack until the GE? It’s a downward spiral for Eddie boy!
Bullet points sent to ex-pats in Australia and Canada, who, while not following IndyRef developments, asked to be kept informed of ‘significant’ events.
I reckon this qualified (?)
Actually I really saw this on the latest Immigration speech by the Labour Shadow Minister it sounded exactly like something a Tory would say and pretty much says that any policy they will have is going to be exactly the same as the Tories. Sigh
Curtice!
http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2013/08/wings-over-scotland-crowsource-funded-poll/
Curtice!
No need for that sort of language!
So, if you haven’t noticed yet – our poll analysed by Prof. John Curtice:
http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2013/08/wings-over-scotland-crowsource-funded-poll/
Proud to have been one of the crows.
Oh dear, Curtice’s Unionist slip is showing, don’t you think? He seems to interpret the poll solely from the BT point of view.
Indeed, Holebender. Although the analysis as such isn’t unbalanced, it’s entirely about the implications of the poll for Better No. Nothing at all about what Yes Scotland might take from the results. That is slightly telling, if not exactly surprising.
I thought John would be crunching the numbers, it is were his heart is. 🙂
Kudos to him for giving it time and space on his blog too and although I would consider him pro-Union in leaning he is not so swung in that direction that he is unable to read the runes and he gives fair warning to the No camp…and he is right about who else could lead it. Brown’s intervention was bizarrely short lived although one must assume he will venture in again when the mood suits him even if it is just to annoy Alastair.
Go us on the crowd funding too…hadn’t realised that was a first. Bet BT copy us *snigger*
“Oh dear, Curtice’s Unionist slip is showing, don’t you think? He seems to interpret the poll solely from the BT point of view.”
No, I have no problems with his analysis. Remember, we’re at one end of the spectrum. There IS a legitimate range of opinion that’s still short of bias.
“Go us on the crowd funding too…hadn’t realised that was a first. Bet BT copy us *snigger*”
Do you seriously think there’s a big enough “crowd” of them willing to fund one??
Do you seriously think there’s a big enough “crowd” of them willing to fund one??
Yes. And I think we all know his name.
Yes. And I think we all know his name.
LOL
As Handandshrimp says, we’ll done to Curtice for actually printing it.
This poll will keep coming back to bite No Scotland in the erse.
This is good news Curtis is the apparently the only expert in this field in Scotland. How long can the MSM ignore their favorite polling expert?
John Curtice’s take will be the only one that will be considered, if the Poll gets mentioned at all. But the information and the views expressed stand.
Having worked in scientific research all my life it is interesting to observe how experts in a field of knowledge believe they own it.
The public answered the questions, not as expert pollsters, but in the same way as they would answer any question relating to their lives. This is how they will answer in the Referendum, and it is how they will ask questions in the Referendum. Not as experts but as ordinary people.
From the tone and analysis of Curtice’s input it came across as very dismissive and patronising, almost like he felt forced into acknowledging the poll in some way to avoid looking even more biased and one sided than he already does.
Looks like National Collective have taken the hump with the MSM big time and are are planning a strategy to circumvent them. I wonder if they have been prompted by how the Wings poll was treated.
Everyone is allowed an opinion… but Prof Curtice raises some game-changing points – how bad has the mass media failed for members of the public to conduct their own poll?
Blogs like WoS were the first part of the Alba Spring, conducting crowdfunded paid research was the second, What will happen next?
will it be crowd funded political advertising?
crowdfunded political art?
will it be the rise of Russia Today and Al-Jazeera in Scotland?
will space monsters turn up in favour of independence?
whatever it is, I hope it will be good humoured, but clever.
A big thank you to Prof. Curtice for his constructive criticisms of the WoS poll. There’s a real scientist in there somewhere! It’s always useful to get a different perspective, and I think his comments were fair. His generous acknowledgement that the crowd-funded poll may be the first of its kind is to be welcomed. He did not have to do it, and the BBC may be slightly annoyed.
I think that the fact that Prof Curtice has taken time to consider the Wings poll, I take as a positive development, and who knows, he may refer to one or two points raised in it the next time he is on the state broadcaster. We can live in hope.
Alba Spring – love it.
As for Prof. C. I think his analysis was fairly reasoned (for a unionists), but have to say well done him for even going there.
At the end of the day, no matter what media coverage this poll gets, the figures are there and cannot be ignored and will be brought up by ever YES supporter over the next few months.
At least we won’t have to listen to all the shite about an iScotland being in the hands of a few Mel Gibson fans etc.
I would be interested to know more about the point both Curtice and NNS made, that of the respondent who didn’t vote in 2010. How could these people answer the question? Were they pushed to “don’t know”? – because that would inflate the “don’t know” percentage. Or were they excluded? That in itself could skew the results though.
Just going back to the topic of this post, some light relief;
Simplistic, though entertaining article from Der Spiegel Online about broken Britain. Bet Canavan loved this interview and the observation that the “air in every pub smells like urinal cake ” is a cracker.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/economic-crisis-and-ukip-leave-britain-deeply-divided-a-906600.html
JC covering the poll is great news. How we can leverage that to get more media coverage is the challenge now. But once JC has spoken mere mortals cant ignore it 🙂
@ Morag
The fact that he focussed on the implications for BT is also good news : what he’s saying is that they are the ones who have something to worry about here.
(If a poll looks bad for Yes then they focus on what Yes needs to do to fix it, and then we complain cos they are having a go at us, so I think the way he has approached this is good news as well).
Regarding the point he makes about Question 7 (how did people who didn’t vote in GE2010 answer the question).
While this means you cant be 100% sure about the result the reality is that if someone has a view on Yes or No they are going to express that in their answer 1 way or the other. If they didn’t vote in GE2010 then most likely they would answer the question in relation to the party they currently support.
Failing that, anyone who didn’t vote in GE2010 is probably not going to vote in the referendum anyway, and even if they were the most likely is that the numbers opting for Don’t Know in that scenario would be split 34/36 Yes/No anyway.
So in summary it would make no difference to the result.
My view is that we got a favourable result in this question because of the questions before it which forced people to think about the issues more deeply. When they got to Q7 a number of people who normally would pick No moved to Don’t Know (showing how soft the No vote is when challenged to think about it more deeply)
Could be that, could be that they weren’t asked to say how they would vote “if the referendum was tomorrow”.
I wonder how different the poll would look if you prefaced it by asking for the respondents’ hypothetical votes if they knew there would be a Conservative government in 2015 – a Labour government – a Conservative/LibDem coalition – A Labour/LibDem coalition – a Conservative/UKIP coalition….
There seem to be people who would switch from No to Yes if any one of these was the likely outcome, but say No if the question is put without that preamble. But of course it has to be one of these possibilities. There isn’t the option of saying, well I’m going to vote No because I think the SNP or the tooth fairy will get in.
“Were they pushed to “don’t know”?”
They’d have had to put don’t know, or go with what their general party loyalty is. Bear in mind, though, if someone didn’t even vote in the Westminster election, there’s a fair chance they’re not going to vote in the referendum. Not a CERTAINTY, but that’s quite a level of political disinterest.
And once again, as I said on the Prof’s blog – we weren’t trying to ask the referendum question. It’s just an indicator.
Oh, I realise that. I just wondered.
Westminster election, there’s a fair chance they’re not going to vote in the referendum. Not a CERTAINTY, but that’s quite a level of political disinterest.
Which is why promoting the idea that ‘Scots are not going to vote for independence’ is probably the most stupid tactic going.
After ‘Alex Salmond is a fat liar’ that is.
We all know, and have often repeated, that the referendum is not an election. I do not think there is any reasonable basis for saying people who did not vote in an election will not vote in the referendum. What was the turnout like in the 1997 referendum, and how does that compare to the 1997 general election?
I have always thought that an independence referendum would be so unique and special that turnout would be considerably higher than for any mere run of the mill election. Wouldn’t you make an extra-special effort to register your vote next year?
What was the turnout like in the 1997 referendum, and how does that compare to the 1997 general election?
71.3% in the GE, 60.4% for the referendum.
@Luigi et al. Prof. Curtice did have do it, if he wants to be considered as an academic – as opposed to a media mogul. Reputation is all for academics – you can’t ignore some of the facts and pander to personal prejudice. So yes, nice to see his analysis. But no, thanks are not required. It’s his job.
@fordie.
In academia the internal departmental jealousies are to the fore. If Prof Curtice ignored the WoS poll there would be comments in the common room. Just my opinion. He had to comment.
He also has his domestic problems with the fragrant “Brain as large as Uranus” person.
Enjoy.
Hail Alba
I’m still trying to parse that. Would it help if I mentioned that Wendy Alexander is married to Brian Ashcroft? Or am I way off the mark?
So, there are polls that show no support for Independence. And these polls get published (or bits of them do).
How many polls are there being commisioned and completed that don’t get published because they show support for Independence then?