The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland


When time stood still again

Posted on July 30, 2016 by

Yes supporters are currently holding what seems to be a very well-attended march from Glasgow’s Botanical Gardens to a rally in George Square, with thousands more people seemingly turning up than even the organisers’ highest pre-event estimates.

We could verify that with footage from the Labour-controlled City Council’s webcam at the square, if it hadn’t mysteriously stopped working an hour and ten minutes ago, weirdly enough at the exact moment the march started to arrive.

whentime

Funny, that. We’re sure it’s just a coincidence.

Print Friendly

    246 to “When time stood still again”

    1. Bugger (le Panda) says:

      Red Tory Unionist Council until next year

    2. Macbeda says:

      And the BBC coverage seems to be stuck in the Botanics at 10:30.

      Useless tossers can’t even give up to date news.

      Probably waiting for the MSM papers to come out so they can have somehing to copy.

      No original news there.

    3. Mike says:

      That’s a very dangerous and irresponsible thing for any public official to do. Closing down CCTV coverage of an area where there is a large gathering of people during a period of high security alert is criminally accountable.

    4. KathyT says:

      Gosh, that’s never happened before! 😮

      Tbf though, I’m not in the habit of checking that webcam daily, maybe it does happen often.

    5. thingy says:

      Not as though it’s streaming video, just snapshots.

      Fannies

    6. DaveL says:

      Just a note on the image above, it shows the folks already in the square with the marchers appearing at top right.

      I’d read of this mysterious problem re the webcam before but this was the first time I’d witnessed it so was’nt surprised.

    7. Bugger (le Panda) says:

      @Mike 1:16 pm

      They probably didn’t close down the cameras, just the link to web livefeed.

    8. HandandShrimp says:

      I see the BBC is now saying 3,000.

      It is time for a clear out at Glasgow City Council. Corrupt and anti-democratic, they are a canker in the heart of Glasgow – a city they no longer represent.

    9. DebzoHighland says:

      Look out for tomorrow’s press photos of both independence supporters that turned up to wave their flag!

    10. Mike says:

      Somebody needs to point out to Glasgow City council that if a terrorist attack occurs they could be charged with complicity if the Police find out they deliberately turned off the cameras prior to the incident.
      At the very least they could be charged with obstructing an investigation.

      How stupid does somebody have to be in order to be considered as a candidate for a Labour councillor?

    11. Artyhetty says:

      The red tory council are out on their arse (can we say that here?) next year. Mind they couldn’t make it more obvious that they are trying to stop us from seeing the numbers of people on the march could they!

      Hopefully there will be plenty people with good cameras and those long sticks for getting a decent view. I am sure the britnat media will all be there, or are they busy ignoring what is the inevitable in Scotland?

      Independence for Scotland is a must, england will be better off on their own too. :-))

    12. Famous15 says:

      So a paid employee of the council was forced to come out on Saturday overtime to delay the webcam or can any member of the public wander in to the webcam control room and make adjustments to suit their political bent?

      Is yourCouncil Tax being misused?

    13. Mike says:

      They probably didn’t close down the cameras, just the link to web livefeed.

      Lets hope so.

    14. harry mcaye says:

      Surprised it didn’t show Rutherglen Main Street, tbh.

    15. DerekM says:

      Technical problems yea we will just say that they will never know we put it on freeze image.

      Oh no they know how a web cam works blame the tea boy for hitting the switch by accident bad tea boy.

    16. Helpmaboab says:

      Somewhere, deep in the bowels of the City Chambers a Labour councillor is crouching in a darkened server room.

      Rocking gently to and fro, he clutches an unplugged USB cable. All the while he repeatedly mutters “They can’t see it. So they’ll vote for Labour again in May. Yes. All is well.”

    17. Artyhetty says:

      Re; HandandShrimp

      Well I never, that link you posted to fb says, ‘this content is not available at the moment’ so bugger off away with you ya nat! Well the first bit is what it really says…funny that.
      I keep getting the annoying ‘posting comments too quickly’ again..grr.

    18. GrahamB says:

      We were saying as we reached the Square, wonder when MacAveety will switch off the webcam!
      We got there at 12:02 and still plenty on the street behind us. You can usually double the police numbers, 2500 to 3000, so our estimates of 5000 marching and probably plenty more at the Square would fit that scenario. Fine sight turning onto Sauchiehall Street to see the whole street ahead filled with people and flags and we were about 2/3 back in the march.

    19. frankieboy says:

      At least MI5/6 will have plenty of footage.

    20. Capella says:

      Is this North Korea?
      I remember the webcam began to seriously malfunction during the Indyref campaign. We could have a crowdfunder so they can buy a new one.

      Roll on council elections 2017.

    21. Capella says:

      @ Artyhetty
      the britnat media won’t be there. They’re all watching England v Germany 1966

    22. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “This is a nice comparison”

      What that is is a broken link.

    23. John Moss says:

      Och, it’s only just a coincidence that the web camera stopped working just as a pro-independence march arrived at George Square.

      You’d think someone had deliberately switched it off the way you are all going on. You’ve been staying up way too late at night watching too many silly t.v. programmes and not getting enough sleep.

      Next thing you’ll be saying it’s all a conspiracy. Get a grip. Man did walk on the moon and the web camera just stopped working. Live in the real world please.

    24. Joemcg says:

      It appears we are currently living in an occupied country.

    25. Bobby King says:

      Don’t know if this is Labour’s fault, it might be official UK policy. I’ve an BBC cameras disabled during London protests.

    26. Walter Scott says:

      How unsophisticated & dumb. Does the Labour council, with their anti democracy gene just wish things could be like they used to be when no one questioned their actions? This is Labour at its worst. Hatred of anything Scottish. This mindset runs through labour from Holyrood right down to the treasurer of the local labour club.
      They are gripped by an insanity that not only clouds clear thinking but could end up being on the wrong side of the law in some instances. This naked bigotry could have very unfortunate consequences

    27. Dorothy Devine says:

      Just back – absolutely lovely , did my heart good and the cherry on the top was meeting Wee Ginger Dug a very friendly , laughing faced dug he is too!

      Lots of bikers for YES there , Caught up with oor Ronnie ,met Crazy Cat and left Ian Brotherhood wondering who the hell I was!

    28. Almannysbunnet says:

      Today the BBC camera’s are stuck in 1966.

      1066 and 1966, 900 years between the two most important dates in English history.

    29. Smallaxe says:

      @ Cappella,

      1966 seems to be a very important date in some people’s opinion concerning football.

      Much more important in my opinion is 21st of October 1966 when
      One Hundred and Sixteen CHILDREN and Twenty Eight Adults tragically Died in the village of Aberfan in Wales.

      I know what I think is the more appropriate date to Memorialise.Peace

    30. Shaney Dubs says:

      Wish I could be there, but stuck in Qatar. Just saw the Euronews saying that a poll taken shows that 53% of scots don’t want another referendum on independence, wonder how they managed to get that result. They are racking up the pressure. Game on!!!

    31. kat hamilton says:

      just back from the rally..amazing numbers congregated at botanic gardens then we made our way down to george square..gave me an uplifted heart to see so many of our fellow yessers..lots of tooting car horns in appreciation too…met the dug, lovely paul kavanagh and got my book signed…really happy bunny..well done glasgow, as ever its the people that make it..

    32. Capella says:

      @ Smallaxe – totally agree. I remember that tragedy in grim black and white detail, as broadcasts were at the time.
      But never a year goes by without the BBC managing to mention the English football team winning the world cup. Pathetic really.

      Still, glad to see you’re back and in feisty form! Peace and love to you and your keyboard!

    33. Andrew Morton says:

      Still off at 15:38

    34. Effijy says:

      Really enjoyed the March down to George Square today!
      I was having a laugh with a friend, when I suggested the Labour Remote Controlled CCTV would be just about ready to
      malfunction as we approached Glasgow’s Kremlin Chambers.

      Just how ridiculously pathetic can these council morons get?

      Anyone know if under the freedom of information act we can request details of how much the Square’s CCTV Camera Installation Cost, what does the maintenance cost per annum, and on how many days of the year has it stopped
      working?

      I’m pretty sure the answers would be: Absolute Fortune, and Arm and a Leg, and every time a Saltire or SNP badge
      enters the city.

    35. Effijy says:

      Some good news on the BBC propaganda front, especially with thank to the WoS supporters, the petition below, demanding a public enquiry into Blatant BBC Bias, has now crossed the 90,000 Mark!

      I hope this number registers with WoS supporters, our politicians, and you never know, the BBC.

      Although little more than half of Scottish License fees
      are actually spent on Scottish television, we probably fall below half, if we could see the cost of producing a constant stream of condescending reply letters to our individual complaints.

      But now the EBC and Westminster Forever Politicians cannot ignore the 90,260 Scots who have signed so far.

      It is still a long way to 100,000, but with your help, we might just get there! Thank You one and all!

      https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-into-bbc-bias-regards-scottish-independence-referendum

    36. Proud Cybernat says:

      Oh, don’t let’s look and they might all go away.

      Keep dreaming yoons. There is only one direction of travel Scotland is on and its out of this stinking, rotten, undemocratic, anachronistic, dysfunctional, impoverishing Union.

      SNP CEs 2017

    37. Stoker says:

      Here’s their escape clause:

      “The web cam will update every 20 seconds. At times of high website traffic the web cam may become unavailable for short periods. If this happens please try again later.”

      George Square Webcam
      https://www.glasgow.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=18563

      What i want to know is: How long is a “short” period?

    38. Iain More says:

      Never mind folks there is always that drool fest about 1966 tonight. Or maybe the Mo Farah Team GB Rio drool fest to cum. Oh and just think we will gets lots of coverage of Sir Chris Hee Haw no doubt to cum as well.

      OT

      Yes it would be to say something that Aberfan should be memorialised without the Brit Nat Royalist guff that will no doubt cum with it. We know that isn’t going to happen though in UKOK where everything has to be turned into a display of Brit Nat self flagellation.

      The same Brit Nats want to drag us ALL back to the days when Environmental and work place Health and safety didn’t exist.

    39. heedtracker says:

      Still no video. A really dirty cheap trick and they wonder why we’re paranoid. We’ll do well to get shot of that lot of yoons in GCC.

    40. Iain More says:

      I forgot to say that tomorrows headlines have already written

      “BLOW FOR STURGEON2

      “BLOW FOR SCOTS INDY”

      Followed by photos of an empty or sparely populated George Square.

      Heck the Brit Nat Press and Media couldn’t even show the welcome home parade for the Welsh footie team without putting some Union Aprons in the frames.

    41. Fred says:

      Just back from the Square myself, the Botanic marchers got a great reception. Wings stall very busy. Great demo, well attended, well done everybody. Loads of confused Burnley fans in the Coontin Hoose! 🙂 Badge back oan!

    42. chic mcgregor says:

      My estimate is that there was about 800, maybe a thousand in the square, including me and the missus, before the march arrived.

    43. Proud Cybernat says:

      The GCC WebCam was working okay for last year’s ‘OrangeFest’ though, wasn’t it:

      http://tinyurl.com/hnreowa

      ‘Orangefest – ‘ A uniquely Scottish Festival where participants (mostly named William and Williamina and sporting Yoonyin Jacks, RFC shirts and bowler hats) can enjoy a day celebrating their shared hatred of kaflicks, blacks, gays, lesbians and anyone else who does not share their bigoted, sectarian outlook on life.

      May the rain always pour on the oranges.

    44. I’ve heard they are going to put the blame onto Jeremy Corbyn for pulling out the usb lead

    45. Bill says:

      Surely the camera can be controlled via other means?

      Warms up Kali Linux box…. Sets sights on web can IP address….

      …. Waits for Police to arrive again!

    46. Capella says:

      BBC report brief and misleading. Suggests 2 – 3,000 attended. So we can safely double any future estimates on numbers as we know there were 5,300 left the Botanic Gardens and another 1,000+ were in George Square.

      The livestream has some good pics of the huge crowd. The BBC only does close cropped shots limiting the numbers on view. Pathetic.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36926292

    47. Effijy says:

      There would have been somewhere between 3,000 and 5,000
      Indy Supporters in George Square today!

      After seeing all the cars that were being held up, to allow the Indy March through, I kept hoping that all of these stranded motorists where members of the Orange Order.

      Pay back time for the number of times I’ve been stuck
      behind Knuckle draggers & Broom Handle Twirlers.

    48. Ged O'Brien says:

      I was entirely unsurprised when I logged in to the web ‘feed’. However: less than a year to go and a Yes voter will have their finger on the on/off button.

    49. JM says:

      OT

      Sorry if this has been mentioned previously as I don’t read all of the comments.

      The list of companies and organisations involved in the work for dole money Workfare scheme includes Greenfingers, Houston Industrial Estate, Livingston – part of the M8 Group.

      Proprietor: unionist and graph enthusiast K—- H—-.

      Wonder why he wants Scotland under tory rule.

    50. Smallaxe says:

      @Capella & Ian More,

      Yeah people we have a lot to sort out after Indy but I know that we can get it a lot better than it is now.Speed the Day.

      Peace,Love and Sensible Government to us All.

    51. heedtracker says:

      Another display of rancid The Graun UKOK propaganda

      http://archive.is/RRiUe

      YouGov polled 1,006 Scottish adults between 20 and 25 July, roughly a month after the referendum, and concluded that a guarantee of an independent Scotland being able to remain in the EU did not move public opinion.”

      https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/ihg707zgux/ScottishTrackers_25-Jul-2016_Indy_W.pdf

      Birthplace
      Scotland 748 815
      Rest of the UK 200 101
      Outside UK 58 91

      Its NOTHING like a 1,006 Scottish adults, even with weighting. Good old rancid. Once again, we’ll do really well to shake of that lot.

    52. frogesque says:

      Sorry I couldn’t be there, looks like a fan day from fb pics. Hopefully there will another march soon, maybe Edinburgh?

      Future marches could be overseen by high quality drone footage taken at various times. That way an accurate, irrefutable headcount could be established.

      No cam blackouts and no more press estimates in the hundreds. Web cams are ‘so’ yesterday!

    53. Jack Murphy says:

      Does the British Broadcasting Corporation in Scotland not have a box it can stand on to get a proper look?
      Things must be bad in BBC Northern Territories. 🙁

    54. Smallaxe says:

      @ Bill,

      No worries Bill we will crowdfund for your bail money:-)

    55. heedtracker says:

      @nadiakhomami
      Reporter @Guardian, Londoner. “I may turn out an intellectual, but I’ll never write anything but mediocre poetry.” Email me: nadia [dot] khomami [at] theguardian [dot] com

      is the author of that Scotland still NO and sticking with Brexit England with 1006 Scots polled and I emailed to ask her why she left out stuff like, the polled who are not Scottish but she says they are.

      I’ll let you know how it goes:-(

    56. sandycraig says:

      Been away for a while so missed a lot of stuff but here is a piece a friend of mine received from his financial advisor. Very long so have cut it short, but still their words.

      “The BBC seem to have a distinct desire to point out anything remotely negative that can be put down to the Brexit vote.

      The BBC website on 5th July stated the FTSE 100 index was down “over 8% in Dollar terms”. They couldn’t bring themselves to say it had risen, so instead, quoted it in the currency that strengthened the most against Sterling although 99% of it’s readers of the site invest in good old pounds.”

      Barstewards right enough.

    57. Stoker says:

      Effijy repeatedly writes:

      “But now the EBC and Westminster Forever Politicians cannot ignore the 90,260 Scots who have signed so far.

      The BBC and Westminster politicians can do as they damn well please when it comes to petitions. Before it even gets to them any petition has to firstly be given clearance by the Petitions Committee and that’s not guaranteed.

      So, if you’re hell bent on conning people into parting with their private details to a commercial marketing company who has previously done the dirty on independence supporters, at least have the decency to refrain from lying to them.

      I for one don’t spend my time and money promoting WOS to bring new people to our cause for people like you to con them. Please refrain from lying, we’re not Unionists!

      Further, Lord Smith (of the Smith Commission) automatically binned a c30K petition asking for broadcasting powers to be devolved to Holyrood. He did exactly what his Westminster masters told him to do. So what was that you were saying about them not being able to ignore us?

    58. TYRAN says:

      “It is still a long way to 100,000, but with your help, we might just get there!”

      ^ We’ve been there before with them long ago. Christ, I haven’t heard 69 Degrees for years. People seriously can’t be signing up.

      69 Degrees is suspect and its only purpose seems to be collecting your IP / personal details. Might as well sign up to Russian Brides.

    59. Clootie says:

      Mr and Mrs Clootie where there 🙂

      I reckon 4 to 5 thousand. A very good atmosphere. Plenty of car horns in support.

    60. Proud Cybernat says:

      “It’s working AGAIN”

      https://www.glasgow.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=18563

      Aye – and it seems eff all happened in Glasgow city centre today.

      They’re only kidding themselves….

    61. Robert Louis says:

      Effijy at 245pm,

      I know some folks on here pointed it out to you earlier this week, and so I won’t dwell on this, but 38degrees is a waste of time. I am really sorry, but even once you have the required signatures they will refuse to act.

      This was all done once before on 38 degrees, prior to even wings getting started.

      On the last occasion, they said something like ‘this site is about uk wide issues etc… not solely Scottish issues – if my memory serves me correctly – or words to that effect. It was extremely depressing.

      I should add (and you can check my previous posts here and on newsnet), I am very much in agreement that the BBC is a propagandist, anti Scotland mouthpiece for Westminster, and their coverage of indyref1 was a masterclass in propaganda, so please don’t think I work for the BBC.

      I wish you luck because anything which highlights the atrocious behaviour of the blatantly biased BBC (they were at it again on the ‘papers’ section on the news channel), is good in my opinion.

    62. Macart says:

      Looking forward to cameras and links working properly after next years council elections.

    63. Marcia says:

      So more than 50 turned up for the March today.

    64. Macart says:

      Just been over at common space looking at the indylive recording. Basically a sea of people and flags.

      What a turnout. 🙂

    65. Capella says:

      RT have better cameras than the BBC. Must from their new Sputnik spy unit in Edinburgh (according to The Times – the paper of record).
      Thanks to Mr Putin for a better quality of propaganda.
      http://on.rt.com/7l5v

    66. Almannysbunnet says:

      Scroll down the webcam page to “help us improve this page”. I’m sure you could come up with some helpful suggestions. Keep it clean. 🙂

      https://www.glasgow.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=18563

    67. velofello says:

      Well done the organisers.

      Two comments:

      The Wee Ginger Dug disna’ like other dugs too much!

      A Really nice twinshock BMW R75 motorcycle parked at George Sq. – I wish. I used to own a R80, I think I know what I want again.

    68. frogesque says:

      Almunnysbunnet: 4.48.

      Done!

    69. Peter Mirtitsch says:

      They have a disclaimer, that during periods of high demand, it may not update as often, but why this should be is never made clear, especially when you consider that nearly 900 were watching the livestream for a couple of hours, from two iPads, and there were no problems until the very end, which may have been down to low charge or somesuch. Other sources too, had no problem in streaming coverage. Only GCC has this problem.

    70. Tinto Chiel says:

      Really enjoyed the walk in from the BGs today, apart from some rain. The column was pretty tightly packed because it had to stop for lights/pedestrian crossings. When it turned off Sauchiehall Street to go up to Blythswood, SSt. was solid as far as you could see. In other words, about 500 malcontents/vile cyber seps in BBC speak, and another blow for Sturgeon, no doubt.

      I suppose suppressing the feed is all BL in S______d have now, denying reality and hoping we all just go away.

      Great to meet the usual Wings suspects and some new ones for me, like Taranaich and Ian Brotherhood.

      I know they will all comport themselves with probity and rectitude tonight.

      😀

    71. jdman says:

      I wonder what would have happened if the police had had to send in horses to break up the wicked vile cybernats?
      Would the cctv have been off then?
      happy to finally have met Schrodingers cat and Donna Babbington, and reaquainted myself with Alexandra, Ronnie,CazM and the gang, nice to have met you all again and a special mention for Paul Kavanaugh always a pleasure to meet you Paul and give wee Ginger a special treat for me.

    72. Thepnr says:

      Regarding today’s march you could have watched it on Indpendence Live.

      They have now done over 700 live streams, a real asset to our cause.

      All are saved and can be watched right now. So why not check it out?

      You can use Google?

    73. jcd says:

      When I got to George Sq about 1.30 there was just groups of people milling around talking etc, maybe a few hundred or so, no stage, speakers or anything but apparently it was the march itself that was the main event.

      At one point earlier apparently around 5,000 there, “respectable” enough maybe but frankly big fecking deal.

      The important thing for me was the poll result earlier. Rubbished on here – perhaps justifiably – as a dodgy unionist controlled outcome, “weighted” – whatever that means – against indy. Then not long ago got back in logged on here and clicked on the link somebody posted to James Kelly’s site which apparently shows that it’s still more or less 50/50. Have I got that wrong somehow?

      If it’s actually correct then bear in mind that’s AFTER Brexit, AFTER Trident. I never thought I’d feel such contempt for a “country” or its people as I do now, let alone it’s the one I’m stuck living in, and I do mean stuck, I’ve no other realistic option but to stay here.

      There’s a distinct possibility, no way a certainty but a real strong possibility, that indyref2 will be lost because of the SG’s and the Yes movement’s refusal or unwillingness to acknowledge and accept that without finding a way to use mass communication to get the message across to the large soft no/undecided demographic then you can remember how you felt on the morning of 19/9/14 and multiply that by a factor of at least five.

    74. Lenny Hartley says:

      Velofelo if u want an airhead,shaft drive ohv flat twin their is only one to have The Velocette Valiant, I just got one 🙂
      Met some guy who were at the March, they said very impressive and the support from folk in cars was incredible.

    75. Graeme Doig says:

      Thanks for the RT link Capella. Great turn out considering the starting gun hasn’t gone off yet.

      Always impressed by RTs balanced and fair reporting of all things political in Scotland.

    76. McDuff says:

      jcd

      Yeh I share the same sentiment.

    77. Thepnr says:

      Some of us are optimists and some will always be pessimist.

      Optimists believe in a better future for Scotland and believe an Independent Scotland will deliver that.

      We all need to decide which we are. Negativity will eat you from the inside. Negativity is both a Cancer and a blood sucking Worm.

      So? Always remain positive!

    78. Grouse Beater says:

      It was the march itself that was the main event.

      Congratulations to all who reminded Scotland of its paramount goal.

      One for the road: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-6YZ
      One not for the road: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-6F7

    79. Effijy says:

      Stoker says:
      30 July, 2016 at 3:48 pm

      Effijy repeatedly writes:

      “But now the EBC and Westminster Forever Politicians cannot ignore the 90,260 Scots who have signed so far.

      Hi Stoker, RE You response above, I really don’t get where you are coming from?

      Why post on here is the BBC and Tories can just ignore you?
      We are here and we sign petitions as we try to expose the lies and deceit that hold back the Scottish economy.

      If the petition organisers send you any future e-mails that you don’t want, you use the delete and or unsubscribe button like I do.

      For pity sake, our Irish neighbour laid down their lives to fight for their nation’s freedom, and you are worried about having to go as far as signing a petition to decommission one of our enemy’s main propaganda weapons, the BBC.

      Your language and attitude are not acceptable to me.

      I too I didn’t spend my time and money promoting WOS to bring new people to our cause for people like Stoker to decide you is allowed and who isn’t and what petitions that they wish to sign up to!

      We have a very capable Rev in charge who is more than capable of marking the card of any disruptive influence.

      You also mentioned a petition of 30K that was dashed upon the rocks, well one with over 90K, heading to 100,00
      will be more powerful, won’t it.

      Everyone has the right to decide for themselves about this petition, and the right to do nothing and leave the BBC as they operate right now but when one of these Westminster Politicians or right wing bums claim that there is no propaganda, I’d like to point out the rarity of a 100,000 plus petition and how that trumps one old farts opinion.

      I am fully committed to Independence and WoS, we have no need for internal splits or arguments.
      Let people joining us make up their own mind on this.

      I will continue to try and increase these numbers as I don’t see how 90.300 Scots were wrong to sign up, and I don’t see why their efforts could be ignored.

    80. Capella says:

      @ Effigy
      I wasn’t going to say anything but – those of us who’ve been posting for some time are sick and tired of outfits like 38 degrees which is basically a Labour Party front.

      I’m with Stoker and others who have advised cooling it. I just scroll by but maybe it’s time to say enough’s enough. People who want to sign will do so. The rest of us ignore it.

      Here’s an old critique of the organisation. Written by a Tory so partisan, but well researched all the same.
      http://38degreesdebunked.blogspot.co.uk/

    81. William Wallace says:

      Couple of hours worth of footage here

      http://livestream.com/IndependenceLive/AUOBjulymarch

    82. harry mcaye says:

      Glad so ay folk had a great day. One of these days I’ll make one of these days but today it was impossible.

      One thing about 1966 that has always annoyed me and is never mentioned. England played every match at Wembley. Now, you may think, so what, they were the host nation. Except the only host nation since 1966 to play every match in their national stadium was Mexico, in 1970 and 1986 and they didn’t get beyond the second round. Most host nations play all over their land as France once again did this summer and did in 1998 (Marseille, Paris and Lens). Never gets mentioned. How did they manage to wangle it???

    83. Ruby says:

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Conon4CWcAEQQ1t.jpg

      This is a great photograph.
      Could someone help me out and tell me which street that is. I’ve been racking my brains to try and figure it out.

      It would be great to have a photograph of the whole march.

      Here’s my suggestion on how that could be done.

      A photo could be taken at a set time (perhaps when the start of the march arrives at George Square). One person ever 100yds or so could be appointed to take this photo. That person could take along a small step ladder to stand on in order to get a better view of the crowd.

      All these photographs could be joined together to make one huge work of art. They could be put onto a map of Glasgow or Edinburgh or wherever the march is in order to get an idea of the scale of the march.

    84. Capella says:

      Ha ha! BBC have updated their scant report on the march. For balance:

      “Supporters of the Union have played down the significance of the march.

      Glasgow Conservative MSP Annie Wells said: “At the end of the day, the democracy that really matters is the vote that we cast less than two years ago to say that we wanted to remain part of the United Kingdom.

      “We need to get out the back of referendums and actually get on with doing the day job.”

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36926292

      At the end of the day it’ll be May 2017 and the Local Authority elections.

    85. Marie Clark says:

      Effijy, you’re being a bit sair on Stoker, who has been a winger for a long time.

      You’ve been banging on about this petition for a long time now, and a few folk have pointed out why the won’t be signing it. Myself included. During the indy ref 38 degrees had a petition of over 100,000 signatures, and allowed a certain Gordon Brown to highjack it and claim it as his own, which to say the least was a right scunner, a real slap in the face to most of us here.

      Now it’s you’re right to sign and promote any petition that you want. But you also have to realise it’s our right to refuse to sign it for the reason that I and a few others have pointed out.

      Now no offence intended, but they can and will ignore this type of petition, so gonnae gey the rest o’ us a wee bit o’ peace fur a day or two please.

    86. Robert Kerr says:

      The Daily Mail has a report and lots of photos on line re the March.

      https://archive.is/TW1W7

      However the caveat is the Poll released as a counter-measure.

      Scotgoespop already deconstructs that.

      No coincidence. This is war!

      I was unable to attend due to caring duties which included Carnwath Show. There I met Dr Dalzell of the Scottish Greens who was surprised, maybe, that I recognised him and had seen him on RT.

      He knew that the march turnout was good. He is looking forward to next year’s council elections which may open up a window on BLiS/SLAB book-keeping.

      This war is winnable.

    87. schrodingers cat says:

      good to meet other wingers in person the day

      great turn out

    88. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Capella and others,

      I think that 38 Degrees simply reflects in the small the very same situation with which we are all too familiar in the large, ie. they are a bunch of liberal-minded bien pensants, basically well-intentioned but with an essentially English-dominated outlook that finds itself totally unable to comprehend Scottish issues.

      Whether 38 Degrees take the BBC petition further themselves or not doesn’t really matter, I think, because the BBC in its usual haughty attitude would simply ignore it anyway.

      The important thing is that the petition is a metter of public record. There are 90k (and growing) members of the public (and mostly licence-paying ones at that) who are convinced that BBC coverage was and is bent.

      That is hard evidence, it matters, and cannot be dismissed.

    89. HandandShrimp says:

      Ruby that is coming down from Blytheswood Square so it will be West George Street

    90. Bill McLean says:

      harry mcaye – when the 1966 world cup was on I was a youngster living in Scarborough. My pals, who I shared a flat with were from Leeds and Newcastle – clearly England fans. Out of politeness I used to watch games with them.
      England, according to the draw and schedule and position they finished in their group, were due to play their quarter final, I think it was against Portugal, at Goodison Park but when they qualified out of their group the venue was changed to Wembley. I have never forgotten this blatant act of non-sportsmanship – especially when over the years they claim to be the acme of sportsmanship.
      I’m sure somebody who could be bothered could research the detail of this as you’ll never hear about from the media in any form!

    91. harry mcaye says:

      jcd – Bear in mind that the poll was for Scotland in Union and was made up of 414 Yes voters and 506 No voters. I don’t fully understand the “weighted” part either, especially when it involves two sets of figures. Anyway, it was the only recent poll that has shown a majority still for No and even then, including absolutely everybody, the No vote still fell by 3 points from the one they did in May, pre Brexit and Trident vote. The recent Daily Mail poll, which you would not expect to be favourable to us, was 53-47.

      So keep the head up mate, don’t let any poll, good or bad, determine your mood and keep talking to as many folk as possible even do what I do and make a nuisance of yourself on twitter and youtube, post links to the facts. I did this the other week and the rabid yoon hasn’t responded after I hit him with facts.

    92. Ruby says:

      HandandShrimp says:
      30 July, 2016 at 6:45 pm

      Ruby that is coming down from Blytheswood Square so it will be West George Street

      Ruby replies

      Cheers! I’ll track that down on Google maps. I know Blytheswood Square I won’t tell you why I know that Square.

    93. Capella says:

      O/T Cariag Murray on The Killings of Tony Blair
      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/07/killings-tony-blair/
      film and panel discussion tonight.

    94. Effijy says:

      Marie Clark says:
      30 July, 2016 at 6:34 pm

      Effijy, you’re being a bit sair on Stoker, who has been a winger for a long time.

      Hi Marie, I with 100%.

      Everyone get to make their own choice on this petition!
      I get my say on here, you get your say on here.

      Everything is good!

    95. Iain More says:

      Christ that was brutal TV Brit Nat kiss London Rule arse fest this evening. That very dodgy poll and the equating of 1966 as some bloody triumph for UKOK. Oh and the creepy monstering of Corbyn thrown in. That wasn’t even the EBC either.

    96. Ruby says:

      Marie Clark says:
      30 July, 2016 at 6:34 pm

      Effijy, you’re being a bit sair on Stoker,

      Ruby replies

      Good! The last time I posted here Stoker told me to ‘get to f*ck’ that I was a pathetic clown.

      Perhaps Stoker should consider going to charm school!

    97. Ruby says:

      http://tinyurl.com/hvqwy53

      I’m happy now! I’ve tracked down West George Street. I know exactly where the photo was taken. Just before the junction of West George Street and Hope Street.

      The next street along is Union Street where the famous Subway retreat took place!

    98. heedtracker says:

      . I have never forgotten this blatant act of non-sportsmanship – especially when over the years they claim to be the acme of sportsmanship.

      Its safe to say that karma got them.

      It is barking mad. It was mad when they were ranting on and on about in the 70’s, let alone in the next freakin millennium.

    99. dramfineday says:

      Apologies to the marchers. I sneaked in just behind the head of the column as you arrived in the square. This is due to a) the tablet regime I have to take these days which, if not taken correctly, can lead to certain….how can I put this delicately…. well, let’s not go there! And b) to the distance/travel/tablet mix.

      Anyhoo, I arrived just in time to catch your arrival. I made a direct line thereafter to the Wings stall…..packed. In fact if they had a door, you couldn’t have got in it!

      Being an elderly, diminutive type, fighting my way to the fore I eventually encountered Ronnie….one Scottish passport, a free “Vile Cybernat” (and I don’t care) badge later, I was disgorged into the throng.

      Thereafter I met some of the guys from the original YES (Edinburgh) Pentland’s group that I had worked along-side, Lindsay (and your sister), Sheena and Rob….sorry Maurice couldn’t get to you mate, the crowd was pressing.

      Good to catch up with some of the other Wingers, including Paula, but “flatties”, I mean I know it was a walk but come on sweetie you could have managed the 4 inch heels at the stall surely? Talk about disappointed…Harrumph.

      Got a bagful of IScot mags from Brian, flags, badges, and info, brill.

      Loved the wee lasses with the “All immigrants are welcome” on their saltire and how proud they looked holding it up, and how proud I felt to see them doing it (well done mum and dad).

      And in that spirit, I’d spotted a group of Muslim women standing to the side of the assembly with their bairns, all watching the proceedings….a quick word with the Wings team and flags and badges were procured and distributed to them with much glee and enjoyment. Inclusion, init.

      So Stuart while you were strolling round Bath or some such, the pebbles are in the process of starting another avalanche….

      Grand day, great to meet friends, old and new.

    100. 1bobbyclark says:

      Aberdeen supporters proposals for Rangers games this season

      Ye kin shove yer union jack right up her crack,
      Ye kin shove yer union jack right up yer crack,
      Ye kin shove her stinkin’ union,
      Right up yer stinkin’ broon yin,
      Ye kin shove yer union jack right up her crack!

      Get it memorised folks,

    101. Bill McLean says:

      Heedtracker – ever wondered why they have never been awarded the World Cup again?

    102. heedtracker says:

      Iain More says:
      30 July, 2016 at 7:30 pm
      Christ that was brutal TV Brit Nat kiss London Rule arse fest this evening. That very dodgy poll and the equating of 1966 as some bloody triumph for UKOK

      ITV teatime news? They also did a huge thing about a populist rally in a country that they thought they owned by divine right too, about Australian treatment of Aboriginal children, very detailed, long shots of speechs etc.

      Then they got stuck in to JC, and whatever Labour actually is now, it is going to split says ITV and JC isn’t going to give up the Labour trademark to the Owenite splitters either. All they’ll do is split and then get booted out 2020 GE SDP style, ageing JC, and another 20 years of faffing about watching planet toryboy go apeshit under Thatcher 2.

      Will their Scotland region still be around to see it?

    103. Luigi says:

      O/T I see that the Blairite rebels are now planning to fight to “keep” the Labour brand name if/when they finally split. All is lost, it’s now becoming clear all these career politicians want is Labour voters to keep them on their nice MP salaries.

      I knew it would come to this. The fight for the soul of Labour is over. All that’s left is the battle to decide who gets the franchise. Do they really think that voters will continue to vote for them just because of the name Labour?

      Do the red tories really think that if they defeat or split (more likely) from Corbyn, all those left-leaning Think again, cheps.

      And by the way, media: why are the Blairite rebels (those red tories, right wing nutjobs) considered to be the moderates, the “centre” of the party?

    104. velofello says:

      @ Lenny Hartley: Velocette Valiant – yes a nice little motorcycle., as was the Le Velocette. “We” were more interested in butch Triumph twins, Norton Dommies etc. Europe knew better, for motocycles- lightness is rightness ( Jeff Smith quote, I think).

      O/T? Yeah.

    105. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      William Wallace @ 18:17,

      Thanks for the link (resoundingly-named personage).

      Leaving the Botanics, one of the stewards @ ~24:40 says he counted 5300 people there (give or take 100 or so). He had a clicker in his hand so I believe him. (Plus of course there were some more waiting in George Square.)

      An excellent turnout, and a brilliant day out!

    106. bugsbunny says:

      There’s an easy way around this? Make it an SNP controlled Council next 4th May.

      Get rid of the dead wood and burn it on a fire. Let’s face it, that’s what Glasgow Fucking Council will be doing to their paper files, (whilst deleting computer files), throughout the 5th May. So when the new Council is sworn in on the 8th, hey presto, no evidence of corruption.

    107. Robert Louis says:

      Could somebody here, help me answer a question somebody asked me. I must be honest, I didn’t know the answer – although I thought I knew where the SNP/Scotgov stood on the matter.

      Last week, Nicola Sturgeon set out 5 key interests she wanted defended in the interests of Scotland during Brexit negotiations. Oddly however, none of the 5 included ‘retaining Scotland’s membership of the EU’. The closest was to retain membership of a single market (not the same as EU membership, imho).

      So, am I just being to analytical of the words used by the FM, or is this the first step towards some kind of fudge? The question being asked; is the SNP/ScotGov still committed to retaining Scotland’s membership of the EU? As this technically and practically is NOT the same thing as membership of ‘a single market’.

      I know I’m being a bit of a cynical political anorak asking this, but it is important. I’d be interested in the views of the many well informed posters here.

    108. Conan the Librarian™ says:

      @Velofello

      I had a C15 when I weighed about nine stone…

    109. Thepnr says:

      @Effijy

      We are not all the same and I applaud you efforts in trying to get the BBC bias petition above 100,000.

      One thing I can say for certain ever though I have never met you is that you have balls and are dedicated. I won’t sign a 38 degrees petition ever again but had signed that one many moons ago.

      You are tenacious and that’s a fact, despite criticism you have never wavered, well I admire and very much respect that.

      Get in there with the head down.

    110. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Louis @20:23,

      I know what you mean. I have worried somewhat about this point too. My thought though is that Nicola is being deliberately subtle in order to draw in the undecideds (including the pro-indy anti-EU lot), and defuse the yoon tactic to try to brand her a “troublemaker who is bent on independence no matter how much damage it causes”.

      But Murdo Fraser (I seem to recall) said it was effectively a demand for retention of full EU membership. I don’t think he’s alone in believing that.

      I think Nicola has two aims in mind, the first as just mentioned, the second to ensure a place at the eventual Brexit negotiating table so she can formally make her own separate arrangement as the talks inexorably lead to a littleBrit exit.

      The danger in such a subtle approach is of course that Cruella may well try for a soft Brexit, play for a semblance of something for Scotland to fool the easily-satisfied ScotButs, and thereby outmanoeuvre the SG. (While conveniently scapegoating the Scots for the “necessary compromise to save the Union”.)

      What may assist Nicola in avoiding that outcome is the expected eventual steady accumulation of Brexit downsides, real facts on the ground that the MSM just can’t ignore or fudge away.

    111. Alex Birnie says:

      Webcam came back on at 20:12 – it’s a miracle!

    112. Fireproofjim says:

      Robert Louis @8.23
      There is no doubt that the SNP is committed to retaining membership of the EU and to retaining all the human rights legislation and all free movement, etc.
      It was their only policy throughout the referendum, and gained two thirds of the vote in Scotland.
      Anyone in the SNP who voted against EU membership has got things the wrong way round.
      When we are independent we can vote for exit (Scotsexit maybe??), but it is only through the SNP that we have any chance of choosing anything about our future.

    113. Conan the Librarian™ says:

      The Scotsman estimates two thousand marchers, the Express says the two SDL hoodies were supporting the march and the Mail says seven thousand.

      I just don’t know who to believe anymore…

    114. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Fair play to Radio North Britain – march was 2nd item on 9.00 news, after the Texas balloon disaster.

      Estimate of crowd was ‘several thousand’ and there was a wee vox-pop with a Yesser.

    115. Lenny Hartley says:

      Velofello , yeah I’ve got a t120 and Norton Dommies and an Atlas and trident and a c15 plus more
      Bingo

    116. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Conan the Librarian™, Ian Brotherhood,

      See my posting @ 20:12. I could just about believe the Daily Heil when you add in the folks accumulated along the way and those already in George Square.

      The Hootsmon is up to its familiar yoon mischief and The Daily Slug is just the usual creepy joke.

      As for the Beeb, “several thousand” (a phrase apparently repeated on TV) seems rather like weasel words to me. It somewhat minimises the tally without actually telling a lie.

    117. One_Scot says:

      Call me paranoid if you want, but I honestly believe that if the result of the next Scottish Independence referendum is ‘No’, then it will have been fixed.

    118. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland –

      Indeed.

      Being objective, you really have to admire the way the BBC’s anonymous news writers deploy language. It’s immoral, of course, but quite brilliant.

      Contrast:

      ‘Several thousand marchers attended a rally in Glasgow today…’

      with

      ‘Thousands of marchers attended a rally in Glasgow today…’

      How many folk, even native English speakers, would be able to nail the difference?

    119. Capella says:

      Looking at the i front page from a link in Stu’s twitter page – https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/759126882273071104

      “Scotland cools on a new indyref despite Brexit”

      I think that illustrates the purpose of polls like Yougov, i.e. to control perception. I hope some who are more knowledgeable about sampling methods can dissect this result. Why? Because I find it impossible to believe!

      The UK gov is in complete disarray struggling to control the optic. The SNP sweeps the board at every election with approx 50% of the vote. The EU referendum returned a 62% Remain vote. But, somehow, Yougov find a sample group who want to stay in the UK and leave the EU.

      Apparently they used the 2015 UK election rather than the 2016 Holyrood election, but left out 16 – 18 yr olds, weighted heavily toward NO voters and over 65s. Does this matter? Does anyone know?

    120. 1bobbyclark says:

      It would he good to see similar rallies in other cities too. Feeling left out up here in chuchter-land

    121. Jimbo says:

      The police said the march was one and a half miles long.

      The BBC claim that only about 2000 turned up.

      In that case, if 2000 people were in a march one and a half miles long, they must have been walking in single file.

    122. Smallaxe says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood,

      Ian l have left a message on O/T for you.Peace.

    123. Still Positive. says:

      Thoroughly enjoyed being in (George) Freedom Square today.

      Much appreciated the hug from Ronnie and the ‘Vile Cybernat’ badges he gave me.

      It was lovely being with people who you know feel the same as you.

      That means a lot.

    124. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Capella,

      I think there’s a media battle for credibility going on at present, during this “phoney war” Brexit period. Unionists are resorting early to their darkest arts by deploying dodgy polls, it seems.

      We have to keep banging on to the doubters, at every available opportunity, that independence is now as inevitable as the tide coming in. People need to be primed for when the awful realities of Brexit start to become manifest.

      Don’t forget that a significant majority of people have long believed that independence will eventually happen, so they can be convinced that the time is now.

      The more the yoon media exaggerate, bluster and lie, the better. Once their credibility is bust, they are actually helping do our job for us.

    125. Lanarkist says:

      Alex Burnie, aye eight hour shift plus 25 mins over time on a fixed minimum call times time and a half for weekend overtime equals lots of bribe for some nepotistic relative!

      So I’ve heard!

    126. yesindyref2 says:

      The thing to do is not only to get the pictures all over social media, but try to tie it to the time and date to show it’s not old footage from Indy ref 1.

      But apart from that, the more this sort of thing happens the better, and the poorer the BBC coverage the better. Every one, 10, 100, 1,000, 10,000 people who realise the BBC is lying to them, is more who will have an open mind in Indy ref 2 and believe nothing the media tell them.

    127. JLT says:

      RE: the YouGov poll

      Not too surprised in some ways at this new poll. Before folk start to feel disappointed or get that sinking feeling that once again the dream is about to fade, we need to remember that the poll is only taking into account the current position of how things are at the moment. Understand one thing …we are in the phoney war of this Brexit result.

      The UK (or England rather) voted to leave the EU and for about 2 weeks there, the UK rocked this way and that before sort of stabilising again. To the Unionists and soft-No’s …it’s like a breath of relief now that things appear to be stable again. Good old Blighty!

      And yet ….Sterling hasn’t recovered. It’s sitting where it has been since the UK voted Brexit; stuck at the same currency valuation against the Euro and Dollar for a whole month. And right now, it won’t really change. Some days, it might gain a cent here and there; other days, it might lose a cent or two.

      But the full effects of the Brexit have still to be felt. Markets are slowly beginning to feel the effects of Brexit (go to the Guardian business pages and it’s column after column of impending problems ahead – consumer fears, housing, negative interest rates (!?!?), beginning of redundancies). Once the full effects of the June Brexit vote begin to be felt, then attitudes will slowly change.

      Theresa May made a pledge to honor the invoking of Article 50 if she became PM, but once she got into No. 10, she basically backtracked as she realised that gravity of the situation. This will not sit well with Brexiteers the longer she dithers about trying to find the perfect deal that will somehow …somehow …pacify everyone concerned.

      She hopes to trigger it next year, but members of her own cabinet such as David Davis are now demanding the implementation of Article 50 THIS year. The griping and sniping has slowly begun. Angela Merkel and Co won’t make any deals until May sanctions Article 50.

      And here’s the reality for those who took part in that poll.

      When Theresa does implement Article 50 …all hell is going to break loose. Sterling will bomb like an anvil over everyone’s heads. The UK will lose hundred’s of billions of pounds(£) over the following days; costs will go up; housing will devalue; foreign investment will stop immediately; jobs will be affected; massive uncertainty like never before will grip the nation! You get the picture.

      Once this happens, I would be very curious for YouGov to go out and do another poll again one month after Article 50. I bet it will get a very different result then next time round.

      Once people realise that this is ACTUALLY FOR REAL, then they will get the heebee-jeebees and look for the alternatives. What folk have participated in this YouGov poll at the moment, actually has absolutely hee-haw to do with the UK, the EU and Brexit. We are in limbo; purgatory; going nowhere.

      At this moment, we are still in the EU. We are still moving about freely within it. We are still trading freely within it. No wonder folk think the ‘Brexit’ result wasn’t as bad as they first thought. That’s because Article 50 has not been implemented! We have had no sanctions thrown at us. We have not seen a severe run on Sterling; on jobs; on investment.

      So this poll. Dismiss it. A complete waste of time. The people who participated in it have not even begun to realise what is still to come. Once the time comes …then oh by God …they’ll know exactly what Brexit really mean.

    128. Molly says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      Others are not even as subtle.The other night on STV, Gordon Chree while waving a document about (following the Supreme Court judgement) said to camera”this is a very complex document” or words to that effect.

      In other words , you the viewers are too thick to understand this so we’ll just move on.

      Today one of The Heralds headlines is NHS warns SNPs airline tax cut ‘ increases risk of skin cancer’.

      Seriously media for minions right enough!

    129. Cal says:

      The more I think about that poll today the more I believe it must have been rigged. I don’t normally do conspiracy theories but it’s just too convenient a result. After a lull of about 5 weeks with no new information on Scottish indy, an ultra unionist newspaper commissions a poll to be released on the very day an independence rally is to take place and it shows a drop in support for Indy. That stinks! Is it really beyond the bounds of probability that the people who carried out the poll were unionists and any massaging of figures would have a blind eye turned? Is that such a wild looney conspiracy theory whacky suggestion? Oh but Yougov can’t be subject to corrupting elements surely? They are upstanding members of the British Polling Council after all. Hmm…BRITISH Polling Council. It’s that by-word for fair play and honesty again. I think we have our answer right there.

    130. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Louis
      Think about test 5 – ““And our interest in having influence, making sure that we don’t just have to abide by the rules of the single market but also have a say in shaping them.”

      and see how much influence even the EEA doesn’t have in shaping they rules.

    131. Capella says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland – agreed. But a better understanding of polling methods would be useful. Maybe James Kelly will get into the detail soon.

      That link to debunking 38 degrees I posted above has an interesting article on the fact that 73% of people get their news from TV and 70% of those watch the BBC. That’s a formidable power to control perception. Headlines such as provided by Yougov will set the agenda for most people.
      http://38degreesdebunked.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/38-degrees-blind-to-bbc-hegemony.html

      However, we only have to show them to be wrong once. Questioning their credibility has to be a priority. And it has to be decisive.

      Stu was talking about conducting some polling soon. Maybe that will help restore some balance.

    132. mike cassidy says:

      Bill Mclean 6.48

      From this

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966_FIFA_World_Cup#Quarter-finals.2C_semi-finals.2C_and_third-place_match

      “The venue of the first semi-final between England and Portugal was changed from Goodison Park in Liverpool to Wembley, due to Wembley’s larger capacity. This larger capacity was particularly significant during a time when ticket revenue was of crucial importance.”

    133. Conan the Librarian™ says:

      Ah, I’ve got it.
      The Mail, being out of the Labour/BBC loop, didn’t know that the George Square webcam would be turned off – so that all the photos that they had already put on line would make them look stupid if they denied just how many people were there.

      I’m sure there will be some sort of redaction in the Mail on Sunday.

    134. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland
      I don’t think Sturgeon can just say “We stay in the EU” and that’s it. I think she had to describe what was meant by that, i.e. what 62% in Scotland voted for. That in theory gives a chance for that to happen, but while still in the UK. That’s the reason for the 5 tests, all of which must be met. See my reply to Robert Louis above though.

      Anyone who has far too much time on theit hands and actually reads the occasional posting from me will know that I’m a stern critic at times of the SNP of which I’m a member, and Sturgeon doesn’t escape my criticism either.

      In my opinion Sturgeon got this 100.00000000000000000% correct.

    135. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Tomorrow’s Observer headlines that the UK Gov. may be considering reneging on the “triple lock” for pensioners. [An archive link anyone?] So pensions are now at risk. Too expensive for the UK to maintain in a post-Brexit world, presumably.

      Chalk another one up for the Wee Black Book (2nd. Ed.)!

    136. mike cassidy says:

      Capella 11.30

      Your link is to figures from 2005-2009

      in a post from 2011

      Anything more uptodate?

    137. Sassenach says:

      yesindyref2 @ 11-42

      Surely you mean “Sturgeon got it 110% correct”?

    138. Vambomarbeleye says:

      At future gatherings could we not get the weans out flying drones and photographing said gathering. I’m sure it could then be put on to online media. Thus exposing the lies of the yoons.

    139. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2,

      Yes, I take your point, especially about test 5. That one plants a nice little marker that surely can’t be outflanked.

      (Oh, and Sassenach, don’t you mean 1000%? =grin=)

    140. Ian Brotherhood says:

      A wee note re the now-legendary George Square camera –

      I was checking it before I left for the train, and the same page as copied up-top was saying that it refreshed ‘every 15 minutes’.

      Definitely not ’20 seconds’.

      That would’ve been, oooh, approx 10.30-10.45 this morning.

      I trust this information will be of crucial importance as and when the official inquiry gets underway.

      😉

    141. Papko says:

      @JLT
      When Theresa does implement Article 50 …all hell is going to break loose. Sterling will bomb like an anvil over everyone’s heads. The UK will lose hundred’s of billions of pounds(£) over the following days; costs will go up; housing will devalue; foreign investment will stop immediately; jobs will be affected; massive uncertainty like never before will grip the nation! You get the picture.

      I always thought that was priced in on the 24th of June, the pound collapsed and markets fell because they felt article 50 was in the price.

      I voted Remain, but the majority verdict must be respected, IMO in a few years time we know if we are in the EU or not.

      It wasn’t just the FTSE that tanked the Euro-zone markets are down as well, Deutsche Bank is trading at 2008 levels, with the Italian debt crisis still dragging on.

      Britain contributed 20% of the EU budget,that will have to be found somewhere else, presumably by increasing the take on those paying in.

      We will see how popular the EU is when more countries start putting in more than they take out.

    142. yesindyref2 says:

      @Sassenach
      Nah, she’s an Indy supporter. It’s Unionists who exaggerate beyond the possibility of reality.

    143. Iain More says:

      @Cal

      Of course it was rigged. Read Scots Goes Pop take on it. 16 and 17 year olds not included for one. Bizarre weightings employed as well. All timed for release on the day of an Indy rally in Glasgow as well. There is no end to the mendacity of the Brit Nats and the their Yoon stooges in the Brit Nat Press and Media. They are getting more and more desperate.

    144. Effijy says:

      Thepnr says:

      30 July, 2016 at 8:45 pm

      @Effijy

      We are not all the same and I applaud you efforts in trying to get the BBC bias petition above 100,000.

      Thanks Thepnr! I have found great comfort in this site, and the posts from like minded people, for 3 years now.

      I’ve spent a few hundred pounds supporting our various causes, including my precious £50 copy of the Wee Blue Book, and I have taken the criticism of my thoughts quite hard today.

      As you say, I will stand up for myself, and I will stand up for democracy, and Scotland.
      I will fight from every angle there is until Scotland is a true nation again.

      90,380 Signatures and counting!

    145. oldhighlander says:

      The BBC will lie and lie and lie until they are blue in the face.

      The BBC just CANNOT be trusted.

      As for the George Square rally today, all I can say is that if I had known about it I would have travelled there as I have plenty spare time but I was pre occupied with a trip up a Ben.

      That rally would have been much better if it was used as a starting point for a march on LONDON…. Then it would have got world coverage when thousands more converged in their capital.

      Nothing to stop us doing it is there?

    146. call me dave says:

      It’s a big Yes2 a second referendum

      http://archive.is/pD1CB

    147. CameronB Brodie says:

      Papko
      Which “we” is it that forms the majority, of which you speak. Scots or British?

      If it is the former then you are wrong, the majority of Scots voting, voted to stay. If the later, then you are a Greater England/British nationalist. That’s how I see it anyway.

      Why not simply acknowledge you inner self and experience the full-fat Being of your identity?

    148. call me dave says:

      Thousands march through Glasgow in support of Scottish independence

      http://archive.is/8BbqX

      ————————————————————-
      The Hootsman however were a bit loose & reticent with half truths 🙂

      Police said around 2,000 marchers had joined the procession by 10.30am.

      The march began at the Botanic Gardens in the city’s west end before making its way down Great Western Road. It arrived at George Square just before noon.

    149. GrahamB says:

      Ruby @ 6:33
      It is indeed Great George Street (some unionist connotations there unfortunately or ironically) and a great scene, we were probably about the top of the hill when the picture was taken and the head of the march was into Mandela Square by then. Best scene though was turning into Sauchiehall Street and seeing the whole street ahead filled with our people and their flags. We were about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way back in the march so there’s plenty of folk missing from that photo.
      BTW myself and the pals I was with are all 65+ and keen to get this sorted before it’s too late for us. We won’t get anything more than satisfaction or self-esteem from independence but we’ll get the satisfaction of giving our children and grandchildren a better chance in life.
      Roll on the next march – Freedom Square or Pacific Quay, we’re game, and we’ve got the time as pensioners to be going round doors and doing the hard work of persuading people to our side.
      As WGD said, today was not about persuading NO voters, it was about getting energy and enthusiasm back into our activists and supporters, from what I saw it worked and we need to keep going along the same track.

    150. Papko says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      31 July, 2016 at 12:37 am
      Papko
      Which “we” is it that forms the majority, of which you speak. Scots or British?

      Its the same thing to me, its interchangeable.

    151. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland
      Yeah, I think the only way that test can be passed is staying in the EU itself, and the only way that can happen is with Indy. So far I haven’t seen any Unionists grasp the nettle and tell the media that that’s what it means. I wonder why!

    152. yesindyref2 says:

      @Effijy
      Keep going with it, though as I’ve said I wouldn’t go anywhere near 38 degrees myself after the Brown thing.

      I remember back in 2012 in my Guardian posting days, with the The Health and Social Care Act 2012, the petitions.gov.uk petition “Drop the Health Bill”. It got mentioned in one or two threads, some of us took it up and posted the link and number of signatures in every single thread we posted in, multiple times, it rose and rose.

      Some group – perhaps 38 degrees – who had their own petition then emailed all their registered people, and the numbers just shot up even more, within 24 hours or less it was well over the 100,000 meaning the petitions committee would discuss it and maybe bring it to the UK Parliament.

      Didn’t achieve much in the end, but I watched those numbers rise constantly for hours and hours.

      It’s good to have a cause, and believe in it.

    153. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2, call me dave,

      And of course also under-represent when it pleases.

      2000 marchers? =laugh= Crivvens! Help ma boab!

      Some reader of the Hootsmon should sue in the small claims court for paying good money to get utterly rubbish “facts” like that.

    154. Robert Louis says:

      Fireproofjim, Robert J.Sutherland and yesindyref2, above ,thanks for your comments regarding my question I posed earlier.

      I think what is important, is that we do not for one second merely assume we know what the ScotGov mean with what they say on such matters.

      I note especially the point made by Yesindyref2 about control etc..but I simply cannot see why one of the points was not ‘retain membership of the EU’. Wind the clock forward six months, perhaps nearing article 50 being enacted, will the Scot Gov then start saying, well we protected 2 out of 5 of our pledges.. etc..

      The ScotGov/SNP need to be crystal clear on this, are they standing up for membership of the EU, or merely something akin to those rather woolly points? Already we have politicians using phrases such as ‘the single market’ interchangeably with the phrase ‘membership of the EU’, yet they are most definitely NOT the same thing.

      There are many, many aspects of EU membership important to Scotland, which are not addressed by those 5 points.

      I do still have the nagging fear that for no apparent reason, the SNP are intentionally trying to fudge this issue. All they need to state, quote categorically is they will defend Scotland staying in the EU, then there is no need for those 5 rather woolly points.

      Are the SNP going into the brexit negotiations with the intention of achieving some kind of fudged ‘deal’ short of EU membership or are they going in to, as we all naively assumed, show they have exhausted every avenue for Scotland retaining EU membership, and then call an indy referendum??

      I must say, the 5 points from Scotgov/NS this week, smell like spin to me, and it just won’t do.

      Anyway, as regards the march today, seems it was excellent. It is very heartening to see such a huge turnout. Sad I couldn’t make it – perhaps the organisers could let people who are NOT on social media know too, for the next one.

    155. CameronB Brodie says:

      Papko
      You do appreciate that your outlook denies the reality of Britain consisting of two nations. You are denying both Scotland and England their primary human right of identity.

      Now run along you silly person.

    156. Robert Louis says:

      So, now we see yet another ‘better together’ PROMISE thrown into the incinerator. All those Scottish pensioners, who were scared witless by the Labour party to vote NO to Scottish independence so they kept their pensions, now betrayed.

      The utter and complete betrayal of ‘NO’ voters is now complete.

      From the Guardian/observer https://archive.is/Nsiv7

      All I can say is well done British Labour in Scotland, you useless bunch of lying Tory stooges. The Clyde shipyards, the EU, the ‘financial stability’, the’vow’ the ‘federalism’ and now the pensions, all things you promised which we would keep with a NO vote to independence. Every last one now betrayed. Bingo!

    157. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Louis
      It always needs some of us to keep a beady eye on those we entrust Independence to, and say our thoughts aloud. And yes, it needs all 5 tests to be met, not just, as you say, “2 out of 5 is good enough, aren’t we great, vote for us”.

    158. Gary45% says:

      Got back to the house up north at around 11. 40pm.
      Great wee long day out, finally putting faces to names.
      Ronnie yer a legend, the wife says she will treasure her vile cybernat badge..
      Had a conversation with a gentleman at Central Station and a lady going north on the train, gave each of them a copy of the Wee Black Book,( you never know)
      On a wee serious note, rumour Glasgow City Council are using military grade Israeli surveillance technology,Its being deployed in Glasgow, methinks FOI to Glesca Cooncil.
      Could the council be biased????!?

    159. Robert Louis says:

      Excellent piece by Ponsonby, as highlighted by Cadogan above, regarding the suspect poll, and the fact that so few people in Scotland now believes a word the mainstream media tells us.

      Link to article http://indyref2.scot/can-we-believe-anything-the-corporate-media-tells-us

    160. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Louis @ 01:34,

      I know where you are coming from. I have had exactly the same thoughts. Nicola getting into a nightmare situation where she has to turn to Scottish voters and say “Well, I tried my best, and 3 out of 5’s no bad”. (That’s what I mean by “being outflanked”.)

      We have to trust her on this. She’s playing a subtle game, I believe, so has been careful to set conditions, while not as explicit as you or I might prefer, are “necessary and sufficient” (as the mathematicians put it) to keep us in the EU. But to achieve this she necessarily must insist on having all 5 tests fully respected. Nothing less.

      You and I are direct chiels, we want the EU red line laid out simply and clearly. Which is probably why neither of us are politicians! =laugh= (If I may presume.)

      I think Nicola deserves our trust on this, even though trust in politicians is in extremely short supply these days. I think she has earned it. It’s a tricky game getting as many voters onside as possible, but in the end that’s the big jackpot.

    161. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Louis @ 01:52,

      Thanks for the link. That’s the Observer headline story to which I referred upthread.

      Into the Wee Black Book, along with the rest!

    162. thomaspotter2014 says:

      No army can stop an idea who’s time has come.

      INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND.

    163. Cherry says:

      @Robert Louis and Yesindyref2.

      Here’s a piece taken directly from Nicola’s speech.
      I think it puts a little more meat on the bones of just 5 points. I think she HAS to speak for ALL Scots not just us on the yes side. She IMO isn’t trying to cosy up to Westminster, however she has to cover all the bases until we know there’s nowhere and nothing else to do but go for INDEPENDENCE…

      “Protecting our place in and relationship with the EU is not just an article of faith – it is about our vital interests.

      Firstly, there is our democratic interest. To put it simply, we didn’t vote to leave – we voted to remain. To be told that we have to leave, regardless, is tantamount to being told that our voice as a nation doesn’t matter. Of course, some will say that we also voted to stay in the UK, so we must accept the UK wide verdict. But in 2014, we voted to stay part of a UK that was a member of the EU – indeed, we were told then that protecting our EU membership was one of the main reasons to vote against independence.
      So, our democratic interest is, in my view, a strong one. But it’s not the only interest at stake.

      There is also our economic interest. For a country that sends almost half of our international exports to other EU countries, retaining membership of a single market of 500 million people matters. For a nation that has a strong financial services sector, the system referred to as ‘passporting’ matters. With a significant rural economy, retaining access to CAP payments matters. With a reputation for punching above our weight in research, ensuring access to competitive research funding and the global collaborations that flow from it matters. For a country that needs to grow its population to help address skills gaps and deal with an ageing population, free movement matters. All of that is now at risk – and it will be people who pay the price of this in real life if jobs, investment and living standards suffer.

      Then there is our interest in social protection. The EU guarantees core rights and protections for workers. The right to paid holidays and maternity leave, limits to working hours, the right not to be discriminated against, health and safety protections – they all matter. I genuinely fear that a UK government outside the single market will seek economic competitiveness through de-regulation and a race to the bottom. That would be devastating for the workers’ rights and protections that we have come to take for granted.

      We also have an interest in solidarity – in independent countries coming together for mutual protection against the threat of crime and terrorism and working together to address big global challenges. The European Arrest Warrant, intelligence sharing, the cross border enforcement of civil rights, collective action to tackle climate change, initiatives like Erasmus that give our young people the chance to study in other countries and deepen their understanding of different cultures – all of these matter to our collective peace and security and to the future of our planet.

      And lastly, it’s in our interests to have influence. To end up in a position where we have to abide by all the rules of the single market and pay to be part of it, but have no say whatsoever in what the rules are, would not be taking back control – it would be giving up control. Having an influence in the world we live in matters – for all of us.

      So democracy, economic prosperity, social protection, solidarity and influence – these are the vital interests we must now seek to safeguard. They are not abstract. They are real and they matter.
      What then are our options?

      Well, simply and in summary, we can to seek to find – or create – a solution that enables Scotland’s distinctive voice to be heard and our interests to be protected within the UK. Or we can consider again the option of independence.

      I said the morning after the referendum – and I repeat again today – that, at this stage, we must keep all of our options open.

      That means exploring in the first instance – starting in this crucial period before the triggering of Article 50, as the UK government develops its negotiating position – options that would allow different parts of this multi-national UK to pursue different outcomes. That means the nations that voted to Leave can start figuring out what Brexit actually does mean – while the others, like Scotland, can focus on how to retain ties and keep open channels we do not want to dismantle.”

    164. Macart says:

      @Cherry

      Pretty much.

      Nicola Sturgeon isn’t First Minister of half of Scotland, nor the SNP, nor the YES movement. She is First Minister of Scotland and represents ALL of the Scottish electorate, ALL of their interests pro independence and unionist alike. THAT is the day job regardless of personal motivations and desires.

      Two years ago a small majority decided to remain with the UK and whether the First Minister likes it or not, whether we like it or not, the job is to try and retain membership of both unions until such times as that proves an impossible position to realistically attain. Until those numbers are reversed, her job is to govern with that decision and electoral preference in mind.

      THAT is what it means to be First Minister and that is what it means to be the party of Scottish Government.

      Were it ANYONE else in that chair, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. We wouldn’t have an FM considering the needs of all of the electorate, exploring any options, or indeed a working democracy. We’d be eating cereal.

      Right now we are a member of both unions and until Article 50 is triggered, the UK parliament has NOT taken the Scottish electorate out of the EU against its express will.

      Just as May needs time to come up with anything resembling a working plan for brexit and attempt to square her own circle, the FM needs time to explore what options are available and buy the YES movement time to build momentum and get the band back together. As part of the options under exploration, the FM can and has instructed her team to prepare legislation for a new referendum bill. That is as far as the FM can go working the day job.

      Wearing the hat of leader of the SNP however, the FM can and will initiate a new drive for independence. I have no doubt that she will put independence firmly back on the agenda for her party and a core theme for the autumn conference.

      That’s a helluva balancing act and a responsibility. Right now as FM its a waiting game, reliant on the actions of others to act yourself. Its going to take nerve, patience and intelligence. The stakes are just that high. On the plus side she had a good mentor. 🙂

    165. CameronB Brodie says:

      Cherry
      Good point about the need to outline the abstracts in everyday household terms e.g. Scotland’s right to development and other such human rights denied by the British state and how they impact on and undermine the opportunities available to Scots.

    166. CameronB Brodie says:

      Actually, I’m struggling to think of any other rights denials but I think the one I’ve put forward is enough to be getting on with. Pretty hard to deny that Scots are prevented from developing the full potential of their nation. We don’t even control our nations’ natural resources.

      Without true development, Scots will remain poor and divided and our economy will become increasingly uncompetitive compared to societies which have evolved beyond their “traditionalist” stage of development, unencumbered by medievalist, loyalists and British nationalists.

    167. DickieT says:

      Amazingly it now seems to be working so I guess some IT person was paid to hurriedly get to work and fix it after all its top priority being a weekend

    168. Ruby says:

      PEOPLE IN SCOTLAND LOVE THE BBC THAT’S WHY

      Scots ‘more likely’ to pay TV licence

      It had been claimed that there were more TV licence evaders in Scotland, where satisfaction with the BBC is much lower than in England, but this is not the case.

      A change in legislation will mean those who watch catch up television will need a licence from September 1.

      https://archive.is/C7nPY

    169. AnTeallach says:

      Robert Louis @ 1.34

      The march was advertised for a few days prior in The National. Great for those that buy it but I agree we need more ways of getting the word out next time. Leafleting campaign,anyone ?

      As others have said, being on the march and seeing everyone smiling and interacting in the square gave me a huge boost 🙂

    170. Ruby says:

      Robert Louis says:
      31 July, 2016 at 1:52 am

      The utter and complete betrayal of ‘NO’ voters is now complete.

      From the Guardian/observer https://archive.is/Nsiv7

      Ruby replies

      They could still bring in the bedroom tax for pensioners and cancel the heating allowance.

      Obviously the Scottish Government wouldn’t have the money to compensate all these pensioners infact they may have to cancel the bus passes & free personal care for the elderly until such times as Scotland is Independent.

      Ye canny shove yer grannie aff a bus! Oh yes you can if she is holding up the bus!

    171. Almannysbunnet says:

      Maybe we should “flashmob” the camera today to test it out. All log on at a set time, say 11.50am.

    172. Capella says:

      @ mike cassidy 11.43
      the media figures were produced by Ofcom for their ruling on BSkyB being acquired by News Corp in 2009. There’s a link to the Ofcom report in the article where sources for the figures are given. Don’t know if anyone has collated these figures recently.

    173. Bill says:

      It’s fantastic news. Those Pensioners got what they wanted by voting No. I won’t be happy till bus passes etc are under attack too.

      As for winter heating allowance, many spend it on xmas presents and those living in Spain don’t need it! We shouldn’t be sending winter heating allowance to someone living on Costa del Sol.

    174. gerry parker says:

      @Ruby. Something about this reminds me of The Pied Piper.
      After the towns problem has been solved by him, they start to wriggle out of the deal.

      A thousand guilders! The Mayor looked blue;So did the Corporation too.

      For council dinners made rare havoc
      With Claret, Moselle, Vin-de-Grave, Hock;
      And half the money would replenish
      Their cellar’s biggest butt with Rhenish.

      To pay this sum to a wandering fellow
      With a gipsy coat of red and yellow!
      Beside,” quoth the Mayor with a knowing wink,
      Our business was done at the river’s brink;
      We saw with our eyes the vermin sink,
      And what’s dead can’t come to life, I think.

      So, friend, we’re not the folks to shrink
      From the duty of giving you something to drink,
      And a matter of money to put in your poke;
      But as for the guilders, what we spoke
      Of them, as you very well know, was in joke.

      Beside, our losses have made us thrifty.
      A thousand guilders! Come, take fifty!”

    175. Robert Louis says:

      Cherry, Robert J.Sutherland and Macart above,

      I read your points with interest, but I have to say I do disagree with some of it. Any Government in the world says it governs for all the people, yet it will then go on to pursue policies which some of those people did not vote for (or indeed voted against). That is democracy.

      Look at London, or indeed any other major EU country, new Governments which come to power for example on a tax cutting agenda, do not pause in changing the laws they promised by saying ‘oh, but hang on, we govern for ALL the people, so maybe we shouldn’t cut taxes, maybe we should raise them instead’. Yet what you suggest, is that somehow in Scotland an SNP Government needs to hold fire on its own policies (including the constitution) for which it had a democratic electoral mandate.

      If we accept such a premise, we may never again see an independence referendum in Scotland, since when we get down to it, we will need to stop and say ‘oh, hang on, NS Governs for ALL the people of Scotland, and that includes unionists who oppose indyref2’.

      We simply cannot have it both ways. This fantasy about an SNP Government holding back continually, as they ‘Govern for all people’, is untenable. I think such a notion is politically naive. If the Tories or Labour had the votes NS has in Scotland, I can assure you they would not pause for breath before fully implementing the policies they believe in.

      It has already been made clear by the EU that some kind of special deal cannot and importantly, WILL NOT be done. It has already been made clear by the London Government that brexit will mean ALL the UK leaving the EU, so there is simply no point in the Scot Gov entering the brexit talks. We will either be independent and stay in the EU, or we won’t and will be dragged out of the EU. It is a REAL simple binary choice.

      I won’t at present say anymore on this, but I do think, it is important to make sure our political leaders do not get too comfortable. I’ve been supporting the SNP and independence for decades, so I fully understand the concept of realpolitik, or as Alex S would say, the art of the do-able, but current events concern me. Their is an open goal, and we are NOT taking our shot. We need to have the courage to pursue our convictions.

    176. Cadogan Enright says:

      Here is an interesting revelation

      Better Together actually pay and coordinate unionist trolls http://www.thenational.scot/comment/pat-kane-yes-campaigns-social-media-strength-was-in-its-spontaneity-you-cant-control-it.20577

    177. Robert Louis says:

      Ruby at 706 am,

      Interesting article you have highlighted. It seems the writers of the piece have simply conflated fewer prosecutions for non payment in Scotland as meaning Scots are more likely to pay for the License, which is of course patent nonsense.

      From the article, the most relevant point regarding Scotland is this “The BBC Annual Report and Accounts 2015/16, shows regional licence fee figures as well as expenditure.Wales gets around 95 per cent of its licence fee back, Northern Ireland gets around 72 per cent, but Scotland just 55 per cent”

      This point was covered recently by RevSTU,

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-quantum-of-bias/#more-86630

      As regards the license for ‘catch up’ telly’, that is an interesting one, since their are many within the Tories who want rid of the license fee altogether.

      It will be a day to rejoice when we get rid of this undemocratic and unfair tax, and an even bigger celebration, when the BBC in Scotland is sent packing back to the land it adores and represents, England.

    178. cearc says:

      Ruby,

      ‘Scots ‘more likely’ to pay TV licence’, says a headline to an article with NO information about how many pay it!

      Should read,’Scots ‘less likely’ to be prosecuted for not paying…’
      https://archive.is/C7nPY

    179. Robert Peffers says:

      @Papko says: 31 July, 2016 at 12:58 am:

      ” … Its the same thing to me, its interchangeable.”

      Aye! Richt!

      Let’s just get this little matter right, Papco, for it seems you are either very badly educated or being deliberately obtuse.

      The term, “Britain”, is defined as the archipelago of The British Isles but also includes those islands in the English Channel known collectively as, “The Channel Islands”, (even although these islands lie closer to mainland continental Europe than they do to mainland Britain).

      Also bear in mind that the term, “Great Britain”, has no other connotations of, “Greatness”, other than relative size as, “Great Britain”, is the geographic term for the largest island of the British Archipelago. i.e. the island that contains only Scotland, Wales and England.

      Then we have the term, “The United Kingdom”, that is short for, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”, which obviously does NOT include those parts of Britain that lie outwith the main island of Great Britain nor the Northern Ireland part of the island of Ireland or the Channel Islands nor The Isle of Man.

      To thus to imply the ludicrous statement, “It is all the same to me”, exposes either a great lack of education or deliberate attempts to fool yourself, (you most certainly fool no one else).

      Put bluntly, Papco, The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland is indeed, “British”, but no more, nor no less so than Man, Jersey, Guernsey, The Republic of Ireland or perhaps even the Rock of Gibraltar.

      You may fool yourself, Papco but you are not fooling anyone else except your compatriot, blood & soil, “British”, Nationalist Unionist who have always sought to propagate the myth that the UK of GB & N.I is Britain or even sometimes even England.

    180. John Edgar says:

      I am surprised the English celebrate 1066. “A good thing,” according to the book 1066 and all that”.
      Yet, why? England, anglo- Saxon England wad conquered by a French duke. The English aristocracy were “replaced” by the French Normans!. They even, ironically, refer to William. Guillaume as the “conquerer.”
      Sados!!

    181. Breeks says:

      @Robert Louis 2:00am

      It is a good article on a very important website, and while I imply no criticism whatsoever of the website, but it will be lucky to be read by 2000 people.

      We have a five point plan to protect Scotland’s interests in Europe from Brexit, but it’s the zero point plan to protect Scotland’s interests from unionist propaganda which needs a little more work.

      Whatever happened yesterday in Glasgow has been reduced to the same ping pong game of table tennis about whether it was hundreds, a couple of thousand, thousands, five thousand, six… Strange, I seem to recall that exactly how the YES rally at Calton Hill was reported too…

      Why can’t we seem to appreciate it is just Unionist press strategy? Report every Independence march, but truncate the meaning of the protest into a bland dispute about figures? And we all charge up the same old cul de sac… who has the right figure? Who has pictures to prove they are lying? The message is lost. Whatever the rally stood for is distorted; “THEY had a poor turnout” is the message pumped into the ether, and it’s also the only message going out.

      Sorry people. When it comes to the media, we are sheep herded into one pen after another by one man and his dog. If he was still with us, the BBC could have got Phil Drabble to do their commentary on all things Scottish.

      Relying on Brexit to change public opinion is like cleaning your windows with cheese. There’s a very slight chance it might work, but just don’t get your hopes up. If you really want to affect a change in public opinion, if that is your end game strategy, then why not just cut to the chase and get tough with the media vultures who distort every message and signal communicated throughout Scotland? Get to the heart of the matter.

      What is the point being a subtle and delicate fine wine, when the media tops up every glass you fill with a tincture of arsenic and cyanide?

      Take the lesson from the media which the media is giving you. They can distort ANY story, and any number of stories simultaneously. It’s a rock, paper, scissors thing – the story will never beat the distortion. Distortion trumps story, story trumps SNP, SNP trumps dist… Ah. Do we see the problem yet?

      Sooner or later, our Scottish government MUST get tough with the media, and it is already much too late to be “sooner”.

    182. Robert Louis says:

      John Edgar at 0924am,

      You raise a question I had never considered before about William the Conqueror of France invading England killing the English king, then crowning himself on Christmas day.

      Perhaps he is revered in England, due to the old (but true) adage, ‘the victor’s write the history’.

    183. Grouse Beater says:

      After talking to their ‘membership’ – Labour’s Scottish branch office has rejected proposals to become an independent party representing Scotland. Hoo haar!

    184. Juteman says:

      @Robert Louis.
      He is revered because the descendants of the original favoured knights that were given English lands, still control much of feudal England today.

    185. Grouse Beater says:

      Robert Louis: “Any Government in the world says it governs for all the people, yet it will then go on to pursue policies which some of those people did not vote for (or indeed voted against). That is democracy.”

      Well, of course an administration will do its best to implement the policies on which the majority elected it. That is a truism. However…

      Representing all people of all persuasions includes at constituency level – MPs cannot reject or eject a constituent looking for help and advice because he dislikes that constituent’s politics.

      And secondly, should a policy or a law enacted become universally disliked for any reason the administration has to represent the will of the people.

      And finally, if the nation is attacked by an aggressor the administration cannot say, ‘SNP voters are not included in the defence of the realm.’

    186. Edward says:

      John Edgar at 0924am

      William the Conqueror was actually known as ‘William the Bastard’ before he conquered the English, it was only have he conquered, did they change his name

      Another history ditty , It was thanks to the defeat of the Anglo Saxons, that Scotland gained Saint Margaret. Margaret was a Hungarian born Princess who as Margaret of Wessex , escaped to return to Hungary, but due to a storm ended up in Scotland, then married King Malcolm III

      Another history ditty, The Normans, were actually descended from Norwegian Vikings, Norsemen, who conquered the northern part of France, that’s now known as Normandy

      That’s enough history ditty’s for today 😉

    187. Edward says:

      Grousebeater

      Read that on the Sunday Herald
      The little giveaway was the Labour statement that the decision might change if Corbyn retains leadership

      So in a nutshell, it wasn’t the full membership (few as they are) and was just a bunch of Blairites
      excluding Dugdale who is in the US taking in the sights

    188. heedtracker says:

      ‘Scots ‘more likely’ to pay TV licence’, says a headline to an article with NO information about how many pay it!

      We also paid for Channel Four, currently running terrific advert for their Rio Paralympics Olympics coverage.

      Its quite a long but exciting and inspiring commercial with lots of different UK Paralympic athletes. Who is completely missing from any of the C4 line up, the Scottish Men’s singles and doubles 2016 Wimbledon champion, Gordon Reid. Reid has been selected but is ofcourse not mentioned by the C4. Also he’s one of the few athletes going to Rio who’s, you know, a champion.

      Rule Britannia Britnats really are world class gits.

      http://www.channel4.com/programmes/were-the-superhumans

      https://www.rio2016.com/en/paralympics/news/great-scot-gordon-reid-eyes-rio-2016-glory-after-wimbledon-triumph

    189. @John Edgar

      The Anglo Saxons were German,who invaded after the Italians left.

    190. Ghillie says:

      Effijy,

      Your heart-felt efforts have not fallen on stoney ground.

      For quite a while I was concerned about the details 32 Degrees ask for. Then I checked my emails last night. I really do not use email and was charmed to see how popular I am! Mostly folk wanting me to sign other petitions!!

      Well, big deal, they got and used my details already. Baaad 32 Degrees. BUT GOOD PETITION. So will go back through the above posts and find your link.

      And some folk, who quite rightly do not give others a hard time for promoting Indi-causes close to their hearts on this site, BACK OFF giving Effijy a hard time.

      The BUM are a proper thorn in the flesh on our road to Independence. How very dare they. This is one possible line of retribution. Some of us would like to try it.

      Peace and love folks to quote a kindly poster = )

    191. ronnie anderson says:

      Morning ALL.

      Once again we entered the Demonstation arena of Freedom Square as a band of Vile Cybernats & were rewarded for it,by the contabutions of other Wingers & fellow Yessers to the tune of £223 (fighting fund) ,after all expences deducted.

      ( and as per, like bloody herding cats & that is only the staff Paula Rose & BrianDTT) with the exceptions to Castle Hills Chavie & Mrs Irene King who brought a semblence of order & did sterling work in keeping the merchandise flowing to the punters 6 deep at the stall & both stalls either side of thanked US for the overflow ( Sharon of Badge Bonny & Kendomacharoonbar Iscot on other side of us.

      BrianDTT will give Petethecamera the donations bucket for his Badges ( donations going to Tayside Kidney Patients Association) counting that bucket in hospital hopfully will aid his speedy recovery ( nae bloody slackin fae us Wingers even in Hospital ).

      Special Welcome to all the Lurkers who we spoke with ,( now you,s hopefully will become fully fledged WINGERS) and that starts with the 1st time You,s hit that Submit Button.

      WE hope that ALL enjoyed Your day & the many more to come. We certainly DIDDED.

      Many thanks to Rev Stu for not putting in a appearance and stealing or thunder

      Lindsay Bruce for forwarding the Vile Cybernat Badge’s
      (Your culpable as with the Rev & Us in teaching little old ladies to swear & being rewarded with a Vile Cybernat Badge,& (as many said that they will wear with pride.)

      Car loaded for Freedom square in the morning heavy laden, & on return from Freedom square, heavier laden thanks to Kendomacaroonbar for loading my car with Iscot mags for future venture’s ( I will be forwarding the bill for spring damage to Kendo personally).

      And many thanks to Donna ( Saltire Custom Creations 6KA11 1LY)for the exceptional gifts, witch will be kept for the next Wings Raffle.

      Once again thats to All for Your Support & Contabutions.

    192. Vambomarbeley says:

      Next March. Have every one form up in ranks of five. Surely the police can count that. Or they could count the legs and then half the number reached.

    193. Breeks says:

      Be fair Heedtracker, it’s only been 50 years since England won the World Cup and they’ve been quite magnanimous about their victory in that, indeed you hardly ever hear about it.

      It is also very sporting of them to play like rank amateurs at every tournament ever since and let other’s have a go at winning all the glory.

    194. @John Edgar

      the German Anglo Saxons lost to the Norman French because just three weeks before they had to fight(and defeat) the invading Norwegians at the battle of Stamford Bridge(Yorkshire),

      all this originated because the Danish `North Sea Empire` (which included England) collapsed after the death of Cnut the Great.

    195. heedtracker says:

      https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jul/31/my-partner-and-i-are-at-breaking-point-over-brexit

      Another weird slice of UKOK life

      “The dilemma This evil referendum has driven a wedge between me and my partner. We’re in midlife and have no children. My parents were immigrants – my mother Scottish, my father a British Indian soldier who came to the UK after the war.”

    196. galamcennalath says:

      Labour have put the finishing touches to they long drawn out suicide!

      “Labour has ruled out becoming an independent party after a consultation with its members found little support for the option.

      Leader Kezia Dugdale will instead get greater autonomy for the party north of the border inside UK Labour.”

      “greater autonomy”, again, for the umpteenth time. When parties are not allowed to actually have local manifestos which deviate from the master version, this rhetoric only serves one purpose – conning gullible voters!

      http://bit.ly/2ad9Jwg

    197. Vambomarbeley says:

      Talking to father in law 86. Brexit have definetly changed his perceptions of the the way thing could be. He was a hard no before. Will give him a Wee black book.

    198. HandandShrimp says:

      Talking of Kendo Mac, I am pretty sure my subscription to iScot must be coming up soon. I changed my email (ditched BT who had become an extortion racket) and sent Ken my new email address a couple of months ago but not heard anything. Do iScot sent out subscription reminders?

    199. Robert Graham says:

      A few comments on yesterdays march .
      There was a march and it was barely reported by the media .
      What we had was thousands of people converging on George Square standing about looking at each other wondering what to do , there were no main speakers the ones who did try to speak were barely audible because of a dodgy PA system , even those of us trying to follow on Independence Live were none the wiser.
      What was the point ? what was the message the organisers were trying to get over to a public yet to be convinced that Independence is a good idea .
      A missed opportunity in my opinion .

    200. Stoker says:

      Effijy wrote (@5:59pm):

      “Everyone has the right to decide for themselves about this petition,”

      No shit Sherlock! Just as we have the right to make others aware of the facts concerning petitions. Or is that not allowed? Are they only allowed to decide for themselves after reading your lies?

      Despite numerous knowledgeable people informing you of the facts you not only persist in attempting to mislead people with false statements you are now telling them downright lies. That doesn’t take “balls” that displays a tremendous amount of petulant ignorance.

      One thing this site and most of its contributors pride themselves in is a love for exposing the truth. Telling folk that Westminster can’t ignore us is, at best, misleading and, at worse a blatant lie. People have a right to be made aware of that fact. That is what i object to and i’ve made that clear.

      There is no intention on my part to create “a split” with you or anyone else but i will continue to make others aware of the facts if you continue to mislead them. Others have also helped to make everyone aware of the truth and that’s exactly how it should be.

      Some people, as you can see, are also getting pretty fed up with you constantly pumping and promoting the same guff petition, sometimes more than once within the same btl thread but have you ever seen me get on your case for doing that? I strongly suspect some of your post @5:59pm was directed at others via me.

      You are very aware that it stands next to zero chance of getting anywhere but you persist in promoting this charade. At the end of the day the only thing you will get out of all this is to be able to turnaround and say that they ignored a 100k petition from us. After all your efforts what will that gain us?

      You also wrote:
      “I too I didn’t spend my time and money promoting WOS to bring new people to our cause for people like Stoker to decide you is allowed and who isn’t and what petitions that they wish to sign up to! We have a very capable Rev in charge who is more than capable of marking the card of any disruptive influence.

      Another heap of deceptive dung from you. I have never told anyone what to post on here and as for your shite about the Rev and “disruptive influences” tell me exactly when i ever accused you of being a disruptive influence. As i pointed out, please don’t use me when you mean to get at others.

      You continue on your wee crusade despite knowing the facts and we’ll continue exposing the truth to people, especially when we see blatant lies and deception, that’s what WOS is all about!

      Enjoy the rest of your weekend Effijy and stay safe.
      _____

      BTW, folks, i contemplated submitting an FOI request on the weekends George Square camera shenanigans but decided against it because i can guess their response before i waste my time. Something along the lines of the camera link fails when there is a high level of user traffic blah, blah, blah….

    201. Capella says:

      @ mike cassidy
      to follow up on my reply earlier – now that I’m on a PC it’s easier – there’s a very good summary of data providers and research methods in Annex 1 of the Ofcom report mentioned in the 38degreesdebunked article.

      http://www.culture.gov.uk/images/publications/OfcomPITReport_NewsCorp-BSkyB_31DEC2010.pdf

      See page 93, Annex 1 Data Sources.

      It states that there is no single existing system that measures cross platform news consumption. But each platform has a series of metrics, each using different methodology. Ofcom commissioned primary quantitative research. It then goes on to describe each source, such as BARB (Broadcaster Audience Research Board), and describes the information available.

      Useful if anyone wants to follow up the data for today’s users. We would expect the number of online users to be much higher.

    202. Grouse Beater says:

      Robert Graham:”what was the message the organisers were trying to get over to a public yet to be convinced that Independence is a good idea.”

      Some answers here: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-6YZ

    203. Macart says:

      @Robert Louis

      I know and feel where you’re coming from RL, but the SG much as we would wish otherwise do not have the powers of full statehood and their powers to protect us on the day to day issues of government are limited by the devolution settlement. They simply cannot do what any other government in the world would do, much as they would wish to. They are at the end of the day a devolved legislation with limited competences decided by central government. They are also bound by the majority vote of their own electorate on the constitutional issue and we’re only too well aware of the most recent result of such a ballot. A slim majority of our own electorate decided to deny our government the freedom and powers to act as we would wish in a time of economic and constitutional crisis.

      Not sure a fair percentage of that majority foresaw just how catastrophic a result a no vote would deliver, but they have a way to change the result and the current circumstance if they want it.

      Most especially on the constitution the SG are legally bound to act only on very specific circumstances. The advantages for the independence movement in this are that they, unlike the unionist parties, WILL act as those circumstances present themselves. They are gatekeepers for Scotland’s democracy and popular mandate. They will enable and legislate for the Scottish electorate’s power to decide their own future. What they cannot and will not do is decide that choice for us. Believing in the sovereignty of the Scottish people isn’t a Monday, Wednesday, Friday thing for the SNP. Its a 24/7, 365 a year deal, but that is a double edged blade. If that electorate decides it doesn’t want a fully empowered state and government, then that is exactly the the type of government legislature the SNP will operate within.

      At present the 2015 GE results and this year’s Scottish elections only gives them the mandate to act on our behalf within the structure of the UK and specific manifesto pledges. I reckon they’d have made a more specific pledge toward an independence referendum for the 2020 GE had the current Brexit carnage not reared its head. The threat they carry in this current position, with our mandate, is that they can and will legislate in favour for dissolution of that partnership by ‘popular demand’ of the electorate, or if the interests and well being of the electorate are under direct threat by the actions of the UK’s central government.

      Right now there is no clear popular majority, though the route of travel in the past year has been pro YES, and technically as well as constitutionally Scotland hasn’t been taken out of the EU against its will… yet.

      The only thing that can tip the balance in the current situation are the actions of an engaged and informed electorate. What the SG cannot do, the people can and be sure that they have a devolved government willing to act on that popular demand.

    204. Stoker says:

      Ruby wrote (@ 7:37pm):

      “Good! The last time I posted here Stoker told me to ‘get to f*ck’ that I was a pathetic clown. Perhaps Stoker should consider going to charm school!”

      Ruby, you deliberately misread my post that day and took it personally despite me making it crystal clear that it wasn’t about finger pointing or blaming anyone and despite others pointing it out to you that it wasn’t about you you decided otherwise.

      You then went on to play what only can be described as silly playground bullying type games by trying to get others to ignore me. At that point i deemed you unworthy of further response on the matter and told you to GTF.

      You don’t get to post with impunity on here especially when it’s against me. I don’t turn the other cheek, i’m not a Christian. I’m more from the Sean Connery (aka Jimmy Malone – Untouchables) school of ethics, ie; “You send one of mine to the hospital, i’m sending one of yours to the morgue.”

      Now that’s the other side of your poor me tale. I don’t need any lessons in charm but i do suggest you work on your sensitivity.

      As for your efforts to get people to ignore me then knock yourself out. Names on a screen ignoring my posts are the least of my worries, trust me, but it would show you and them in a certain light.

      Effijy would do well to take note of that last part and realise just who on here is trying to create splits!

      Enjoy the rest of your weekend Ruby and that’s my last word on the matter.

    205. carjamtic says:

      The picture of the Frozen Clock on the George Square Webcam,will stand forever,as a reminder of the many deceptions,both large and small,carried out by the London Elite,via the Red/Blue Tories in Scotland.

      Silent Witness to the many UKOK LIES including:

      The Brexit Deception,The Iraq Invasion Deception,The French Gate Deception,The MrCrone Report Deception,The BetterTogether Deception,The Trident Deception,The Dunblane Deception…..

      Aided and abetted by the biggest Deceivers of all,the LIARS in control the BBC/MSM.

      Make no mistake,Scotland is a prisoner,to be tied to Westminster forever,that is their objective,yes this is war,it is a fight for democracy and truth.

      IMHO only,Independence will bring Democracy to Scotland….may it also,reintroduce Truth to journalists,the Clock of George Square Webcam stopped ticking,it is Scotland’s Silent Witness.

      It represents,the sound of the silent starting pistol for Indyref2,the march to the ballot box….it represents the deafening silence of the call to freedom.

    206. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Stoker

      “Effijy would do well to take note of that last part and realise just who on here is trying to create splits!”

      “tryng to create splits”? A curious turn of phrase. I’m sure there are some here (you know who you are) who are actively engaged in trying to cause exactly that among indy supporters. Squabbles, fall-outs – yes. It would be a very dull place indeed if everyone agreed on everything 24/7. But splits – nope. Ain’t gonna happen. As soon as the starting gun is fired on indyref#2, all petty squabbles will be cast aside, forgotten and everyone to a man, woman and child will get behind the movement and get it over the line. You can put your mortagage on it. The indy movement is much more resolute than ‘some’ think or would like to think (again, you know who you are).

    207. Ruby says:

      Stoker says:

      You don’t get to post with impunity on here especially when it’s against me. I don’t turn the other cheek, i’m not a Christian. I’m more from the Sean Connery (aka Jimmy Malone – Untouchables) school of ethics, ie; “You send one of mine to the hospital, i’m sending one of yours to the morgue.”

      Ruby replies

      I’m really curious to know what you are you going to do if I ignore your warning?

      Will you subject me to further online insults & big hard man sweary words or should I expect a visit?

      🙂

      PS You you sure you are not the one who is hyper-sensitive and unable to accept any criticism? Re-think re charm school defo required!

    208. Robert Graham at 10.43

      The object of the exercise was to have thousands of people marching through Glasgow in support of independence.
      We had thousands of supporters marching through Glasgow in support of independence.

      It was in fact a test. Was the enthusiasm still there? We passed and the fact that the independence debate continues and grows indicates that the next march (and I would like to see one coincide with the Catalan demonstration timed for 18th September)should have a function the end of it.

      In fact I’d like to see us organise a world march and demonstration at which all the nations of the Europe and the world are present showing they are waiting for Scotland to join them – and they surely are!

      I met dozens of friends yesterday and made a few more. I spent ridiculous amounts of the Forward Shop Dunoon’s funds buying badges and car stickers from the huge number of stalls. Couldn’t get near the bar at the Counting House or the Yes Bar. And have very sore feet today.

      And last night was present at the fabulous “3000 Trees” drama presented by Andy Paterson in the Sandbank Church (soon to be the Sandbank Heritage Centre). All of Scotland should see this. It opened a few eyes last night.

    209. Edward says:

      Just an observation
      But has there not been any lessons learned from previous marches/rally’s/gatherings when the main stream media either ignored or stated the numbers were lower than there actually was?

      I’m thinking would it not be possible to arrange something such as a neutral counter (maybe Price waterhouse?) to establish correct numbers attending and shove it on all social media?

      Also is it beyond reason to actually have live streaming camera’s on higher vantage points, even to hire a cherry picker platform (crowd funding?) to get the best shots of these events, instead of relying on ground level stuff which doesn’t really convey numbers.

      Take a lesson from Catalonia. When you see their marches, you see pictures taken from high vantage points

      As I said just an observation, so don’t shoot me 😉

    210. Effijy says:

      Ghillie

      Effijy,

      Your heart-felt efforts have not fallen on stoney ground.

      Thank you for that Ghillie!

      I think that I may have met you in George Square at the time of Indy Ref 1 ?

      I was wearing a business suit and tie, which made me stick out a bit. A couple of people asked if they could take a photo of me with my Saltire as a contrast to the crowd in general, but my boss at the time was a fanatical unionist, and it wouldn’t have done me any favours if he had seen it.

      90,415 Signatures against the BBC now and still growing.
      I have written to 38 Degrees to advise them of the concerns raised on this site and sought assurances from them.

      https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-into-bbc-bias-regards-scottish-independence-referendum

    211. Andy-B says:

      Well, well well, the camera suddenly breaks down, how convenient.

      I’m sure I read that when the SNP take over Tammany hall, I mean’t Glasgow city council chambers, that a full audit is planned.

    212. yesindyref2 says:

      And that goes for you too, you … you … you fruit basket!

    213. Ghillie says:

      Effijy, you are very welcome = )

      Sadly, it couldnt have been me you met in George Square, I have only ever marched in Edinburgh. But there was a ghillie, small g, who posted here some time ago. Maybe he/she posts under a different name now. I was trying to be honest and using my proper name at the time we were being accused of using false names.

      Our paths will cross, Indi is pulling us all together = )

    214. Jack Murphy says:

      Robert J Sutherland said at 11:43pm:-

      “Tomorrow’s Observer headlines that the UK Gov. may be considering reneging on the “triple lock” for pensioners. [An archive link anyone?] So pensions are now at risk. Too expensive for the UK to maintain in a post-Brexit world, presumably.”

      From the article:
      “…………….The Tory peer added that she believed the abandonment of the policy is possible now Theresa May is in Downing Street………………..” 🙁

      Any word from Tory Davidson?

      Here’s the Archived link:-

      http://archive.is/Nsiv7

    215. Les Wilson says:

      looking at a jpeg of yesterday’s march, Huffington Post jumps up saying, ” Thousands march for Indy, but polls do not agree!”
      Wishful thinking there from UKOK press pals.

    216. Lochside says:

      Loved the march yesterday and the enthusiasm….but the lack of any podium for speakers and a crap microphone and sound system was really woeful as an end to the event.

      Tommy Sheridan managed a better stage and soundsystem last year at the ‘Hope Over Fear’. So why couldn’t the organisers get a crowd fund to get the required equipment?

      And as for the media distortion of numbers etc…I’m afraid that I agree with JCD’s comments that we are facing a re-run of the first REF with an out of control msm continuing to lie and undermine the SNP and the YES movement. The numbers are not growing the way they should for Independence.

      We have reached a stage where with the collapse of the political class in Westminster with the dog’s Brexit and its aftermath that no sane rational individual could possibly trust them any more. Yet our media continues to collude on the one hand to present the ongoing collapse of the UK into a failed state as business as usual, everything as hunky dory as the economy crashes, and on the other portray Scottish rights to continuing EU membership and self determination as the fantasy.

      When Nicola Sturgeon is reduced to tweeting her anger at the Press and Journal for distortion over the Supreme Court’s decision on the NP..then we are truly fighting with one hand behind our back. As WGD said yesterday ‘I’m tired of protesting’…me too…I want to see some knock out blows delivered against the media by our government. This will be our last chance. If we cannot persuade our fellow countrymen and women to stand up against this iniquitous Colonial power chaining us in its relentless grip and break these chains that bind..then we are truly lost.

    217. Grouse Beater says:

      Lochside: “the lack of any podium for speakers and a crap microphone and sound system was really woeful as an end to the event.”

      Ha! My reservations about the end ‘punch’ is justified.

    218. Breeks says:

      For a long time I felt that marches and protests were as pointless as signed petitions. It is all just a numbers game; one man’s impressive turnout is another man’s disappointing turnout; it all depends on your perspective. How many people does it take before you call a march a success or a failure?
      I’ve walked out of Murrayfield in a throng of about 75,000, perhaps more in the old days. You’d think sovereign independence would get a better crowd than a sports fixture, but of course, it doesn’t work like that.

      I still think marches etc need a programme, as in a build up. I know, that makes them predictable and vulnerable to sabotage, but they have to grow. I’ve said before, the SNP should put together their own TV production crew, and make 10 or 12 debate programs focussed on one chapter of independence after the other. A YES march in the morning, a progressive and informative Indy debate filmed in the afternoon, and a broadcastable quality programme put out online by evening.

      I don’t mean pro-Indy propaganda, I mean a diligent, balanced and objective commentary; something people can watch and learn a lot from doing so; something people in other parts of the world would find engaging and informative. Forget your big movie stars, nobody else has the original Declaration of Arbroath to add to their cast list. Make it original, make it the best, and who knows, maybe it can be a stepping stone for the second Scottish Enlightenment. That’s how high we should be aiming.

      You might then have a 6 or 12 DVD box set articulating the case for Scotland’s independence. Sure, perhaps it might never be broadcast on the Union screen in your livingroom, but most PC’s are capable of burning copies of DVDs, and a mail shot of DVD’s might reach parts which online footage does not. It would all come down to quality. If it’s good, people will watch it and talk about it.

      Maybe the next Wee Black / Blue / Red book should have a complimentary DVD.

      Use stringent professionalism with the content and the product, and our indie Indy grassroots army for the prolific distribution / broadcast. Let’s out BBC the BBC, and show up their broadcast claptrap for the seedy manipulative propaganda that it is.

      Let’s do it. Ask Europe for help. Technical help, finance, expertise…

    219. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Just to (hopefully) add a little enlightenment rather than heat to the 38Degrees discussion, for those that haven’t ever encountered the group, once you have “signed up” to a petition, they typically send you a regular stream of notices about other petitions on their website that they think somehow will be of interest. These invariably also contain pleas for donations to keep their website going. That’s the extent of the “spam” that some others have mentioned. They do not forward your address on to third parties, so that description is somewhat misleading. It’s all pretty standard for a grassroots pressure group. (For those that have encountered it, the US website change.org works in a similar way, though perhaps with less appeal for funding.)

      As for the BBC, they are in something of a dilemma over that, I reckon. They host another petition supporting the BBC as a public-interest broadcaster in the face of an onslaught of press right-wingery, which is fair enough as far as it goes. Unfortunately, they just haven’t been exposed to the BBC as prime BritNat state broadcaster that we in Scotland have been forced to endure these last few years.

      It’s not that 38Degrees is some vile BritNat anti-Scottish outfit, they’re not anything like that. During the UKSG, for example, they provided a “worm” live app that registered subscribers approval/disapproval to comments made by the speakers on one of the TV election debates, and each time Nicola said something, the rating jumped right up, so obviously a lot of their subscribers were very supportive of her views.

      It’s just that the group suffer from that typical English myopia as far as we are concerned. I wrote to them politely explaining that as things stand, although it was well-meaning, I couldn’t support their “Save the BBC” petition for the reasons with which you all here are very familiar. I think they just don’t know how to react to that conflict of interest and have just retreated into a state of denial.

      Just one of the myriad challenges that we all will be facing in this emerging new political reality.

      Oddly or not, though, both me and the mrs haven’t received much in the way of e-mails from them since.

      Nevertheless, I very much hope that their BBC bias petition does reach 100k signatures. It’s an irrefutable judgement in the court of public opinion of the broadcaster’s signal failure to live up to the high standards we expect of it.

    220. Cherry says:

      Was looking on the Christian Institute website and found this…these guys are imo just headline chasers, with rich toryboys as back of shop pushers. They really are trying to not only scaremonger the vulnerable Scots and also put the Scottish Government under financial pain…that’s coming out of our taxes. They want it all shut down and commenting that vulnerable children are being harmed by it. Read it here…I couldn’t read any more as I had to go lie down in a darkened room saying wibble wibble wibble!

      http://www.christian.org.uk/news/named-person-wave-of-legal-actions-now-expected/

    221. yesbot says:

      The meeja will misreport as it likes, we know it was a great turnout and has left us all feeling inspired and energised, hopefully that message is inescapable.

      Thanks to everyone involved in organising the event, let’s build positively from this.

      To the fabulous Wingers: it was a real pleasure to meet you all, thoroughly enjoyed the drinks afterwards and thank you for sharing your wisdom and insight, so much food for thought, you really are a beacon in this endeavour!

      Look forward to the next time love to you all xx

    222. Fred says:

      @ Breeks, anent your usual lengthy diatribe, what you mean is that you couldn’t be bothered getting up off your arse & getting the train to Glasgow!

      Oops, forgot the Ettrick Shepherd disnae like the Borders Rail!

    223. Ruby says:

      https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/London_Marathon_2010_I.jpg

      One way of knowing exactly how many people take part in a march would be to issue each with a number like they do in the London marathon.

    224. Kennedy says:

      Breeks mentions DVDs.

      I too think this is a good idea. I have given out Blue books and Black books to no voting relatives and I suspect they haven’t been opened never mind read.

      Watching a DVD would be easier. I could even put it on when they visit and get them talking. Some are still of the mindset that if it is on the TV or more specifically the news then it must be true.

      I try explaining agendas, bias, misinformation, omission and deflection but it does not sink in. They think I am a conspiracy theorist. Iget fed up banging my head against the wall. Plus it hurts.

    225. J says:

      Lochside 4.01pm great post, fully agree

    226. Breeks says:

      Positive and constructive as always eh Frederick?

      Was it your Sunday School teacher who looked up the dictionary to find anent for you? Or did you earn a lollipop for looking it up yourself?

    227. scotsrenewables says:

      Really glad I dragged my ass into Glasgow yesterday, great meeting some of the Wingers and frankly I needed the exercise.

      A thought though – why did the March start so early? didn’t make it easy for folk from other parts of the country to get there.

    228. North chiel says:

      ” well said” Lochside at 0401 pm .There is no doubt in my mind that the ” propaganda war” will be central to the result as regards any ” indyref2″ , as it was in 2014 .

    229. maxxmacc says:

      I visit the Wings site two or three times per week yet was totally unaware of the march. I would have loved to attend, as I’m sure would others who didn’t know about the march.

      I’ve said it before – we need an independence forum to work hand-in-hand with the main Wings site. The battles which lie ahead will only be won if we have an informed army of foot soldiers who get their orders from an internet source connected either directly or indirectly to this great website.

    230. Chic McGregor says:


      Really glad I dragged my ass into Glasgow yesterday, great meeting some of the Wingers and frankly I needed the exercise.

      A thought though – why did the March start so early? didn’t make it easy for folk from other parts of the country to get there.

      I heard the SLAB boys of Glasgow cooncil had booked the square to practice their Morris dancing in the avo.

    231. Fred says:

      Chic, the tight schedule was due to the square being booked for a band which is why we were politely asked to move to the Coontin Hoose. Mebbes the Green would have been better destination but that’s a long walk fur the auld yins.

    232. Fred says:

      Anent, “anent”, office boay in a Glesga lawyers! steys wi ye!

    233. Breeks says:

      Aye, so it does. Just like the biggotry.

    234. Right Said says:

      Positive and constructive as always eh Breeks?

    235. Mike d says:

      Agree with chic mcgregor.i was up for April’s indy March.but i came up the day before from England. Sadly couldn’t make Saturdays, but will defo be up for the next one.

    236. Mike d says:

      Breeks 4.59 pm.brilliant idea.

    237. Mike d says:

      O/t talking to English people who voted Brexit or remain. One thing they both have in common,any ideas nawbags?.they will never denigrate or run England down.there is no self loathing of their country. Why is this so difficult for some people who call themselves Scots to take on board? ???

    238. Foonurt says:

      Wan man’s hingmae, agin Scoattish Independence. Haud oan thurr’s thoan McWhurrturr, McKenna in Sillurrs.

    239. Fred says:

      Anent John Mason & his ice-cream, this excellent product is made on his own door-step by Suave’s;

      http://www.suaves.co.uk/

    240. Sherbet Dab Rab says:

      Great atmosphere. Good piping at the front of the march. Next time for the gathering in the Botanics could not the Glasgow South Side Bangra drum team and other musicians be invited to summon and accompany the march and to create a party, family atmosphere.



    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




    ↑ Top