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Wings Over Scotland


The quantum of bias

Posted on July 20, 2016 by

“Bias” is a word we hate. Other than in the article you’re about to read, you’ll almost never find it used on this site, for a string of reasons. It’s one of those words that – regardless of context or literal justification – simply makes people switch off instantly and dismiss your arguments. (See also: “Zionist”, “Quisling”, “fascist”, “Liebore”.)

It’s also largely irrelevant, because there are very few people or organisations who have any duty NOT to be biased. When it comes to Scottish independence we’re as biased as all heck, and there’s no legitimate reason to expect the Daily Record or Scotsman or Daily Mail to be any more impartial than we are. They’re privately-owned businesses and entitled to take any position they like.

(The difference, of course, is that unlike them we’re committed to still telling the truth when we’re being biased, and to always providing linked original sources so you can judge our biased interpretation of facts and events for yourself.)

bbcscotinside

But there’s one exception to that rule.

The BBC is a publicly-funded body and is committed by its charter to impartiality. It’s supposed to present a balanced and accurate picture, and to give a fair voice to all sides. It fails in that duty in a great many ways, but rarely more conspicuously than in its coverage of the 2014 Scottish independence referendum.

A subset of Yes supporters on social media are regrettably fond of personalising that failure in attacks on individual presenters and journalists, who in many (although not all) cases are simply doing their jobs and asking tough questions where they should properly be asked.

But the root of the BBC’s bias is something much more empirical and measurable than the personal views (whether real or alleged) of this or that isolated employee. And the publication of geographically-separated financial accounts for the first time this year finally enables a definitive number to be put on it.

bbcscotlandfinancial

Above is a page (p.99 to be precise) from the BBC’s Full Financial Statements for 2015/16, which can be found on the BBC website. It details what the BBC received from, and spent in, Scotland in the past year. And it’s a damning set of figures.

The Corporation took in £320m from Scotland last year, and spent just £176m (a whopping £27m, or 13%, decrease on 2015) on TV and radio programmes either made IN Scotland or made FOR Scotland. That, alert readers will have noted, is a hefty £144m subsidy from Scotland to the rest of the UK. But even that isn’t the real story.

Because the “network content” produced in Scotland is just a veneer to make the numbers look better. There’s no actual reason for Question Time, say, to be made in Scotland (which it notionally is), other than to disguise how little money the BBC spends north of the border.

If we take out the network content, just £98m of Scottish viewers’ £320m is spent on actual Scottish programming. And what that means is that if Scotland were to be independent, the BBC would suddenly have a £222m hole in its budget. The loss of Scottish licence fees would take a 6% bite out of the broadcaster’s coffers, at a time when its finances are already under severe pressure. (The licence fee hasn’t increased since 2010.)

bbccuts

The rest of the UK would still expect Question Time and Newsnight and The Weakest Link and all the other shows currently “made” in Scotland to be produced and broadcast in the event of Scottish independence, so that would be a very real loss.

(The actual size of it would be slightly smaller than £222m, as Scotland would very likely want to buy in BBC programming. But we know that the market cost of that is more in the region of £20m, still leaving a £200m shortfall.)

And what that means is that the BBC has a large and direct vested interest in Scotland staying in the UK. The Corporation wouldn’t allow someone with a £200m interest in anything to appear onscreen as a neutral voice, but it pretends that it’s doing exactly that itself.

The vested interest manifests itself in numerous ways, of which the most obvious is perhaps the endless setting of the news agenda – all the way across the Corporation’s TV, radio and website coverage – by reference to the newspapers, which are overwhelmingly right-wing across the UK and also overwhelmingly anti-independence.

thepapers

There’s no reason for this to be the case in 2016. There’s no justification whatsoever for exclusively referencing printed media, when online outlets which could balance the papers’ bias often have considerably bigger readerships. But it enables the BBC to present an enormously skewed picture while keeping its own hands clean.

(In its final days Newsnight Scotland started citing some pro-indy websites, including this one, in its nightly media round-up, but the practice didn’t survive the move to Scotland 2014 for reasons which were never explained. And shortly BBC Scotland won’t even have a nightly Scottish current-affairs show at all.)

Targeting individual presenters, journalists and reporters is often both unfair and counter-productive, and can look like intimidation. Abuse just provides opponents with ammunition. But there can be no sensible dispute that the BBC as an institution is biased, and that that bias is both real and measurable (and indeed rational, if seen from the BBC’s viewpoint).

There are remedies available. The Corporation’s news output needs a wider range of voices, and to reflect views not aired in the print media. Abusive attacks on individuals provide the BBC with both a get-out clause and a grievance, and a reason to deliberately provoke.

With a second referendum likely on the horizon, Yes supporters should already be focusing on far more constructive ways to air their legitimate complaints. Forcing the state broadcaster to acknowledge its financial interest, and therefore the need to do something to counter it, would be a start.

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    723 to “The quantum of bias”

    1. Macbeda says:

      I never done anything but the comments are gone.

    2. bill says:

      Slight off-topic….

      Z-Berths are a requirement for Nuclear Boats, http://nuclearinfo.org/article/operational-berths/list-uk-x-and-z-berths , including the ability to distribute potassium iodate.

      They’d need to replicate Faslane and Coulport in order to re-home Trident and its successor class. That’s a huge undertaking as the RUSI report pointed out. In short they have nowhere to go?

      http://www.cnduk.org/cnd-media/item/1972-no-location-no-location-no-location-moving-trident-is-a-non-starter

      The Brutish Establishment are desperate for you to believe that Trident CAN be moved even in ten years, they can’t. Independence means disarmament that’s why they’re desperate.

    3. Liz g says:

      Macbeda the comments have dissapeared twice on me this morning as well.
      Try the “recent comments” list at the side of the page to get back in.

    4. Macbeda says:

      @ Liz g

      Thanks for that.

      This is doing my head in tbh.

      Is the site under attack somehow?

    5. Ken500 says:

      The SNP should be in charge of IndyRef2. Do not leave it to a bunch of incompetent, wasteful, self indulgent amateurs and Greens, out for themselves. They renege on their own policies and collude with Unionists to waste £Million/Billions of public money in grotesque projects the majority do not want. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. They then complain there is not enough funds for essential public services.

      Nicola will get the women on board.

    6. Bill says:

      Off topic:

      Turkey has suspended European Rights Conventions for State of Emergency!

    7. bjsalba says:

      If Europeans want to understand why England voted for Leave. They only need to look at the BBC coverage of Europe for the last few decades.

      Any coverage (and there has been little enough of that) has in the main been negative.

      Does the BBC employ any folk who speak Polish, or Roumanian, Lithuanian or Portuguese? Never heard them.

      On the other hand, because of BBC World Service we get lots of coverage of the USA, Australia, India, Kenya, Nigeria, South Africa etc etc. And they do employ Urdu, Swahili and some other non-European language speakers.

      Very Empire/Colony oriented. Living in the past. They have had more than four decades to change their focus – they have not done so.

      It is an irony that the best program on BBC about Europe is Eòrpa – produced by BBC Alba and many if not most of the audience is not Gaelic-speaking! Note that BBC Alba took a huge funding cut from the the Westminster Government.

    8. drew sword says:

      per Robert Peffers
      A state wishing to achieve independence from a dominating power will issue a declaration of independence; the earliest surviving example is Scotland’s Declaration of Arbroath in 1320(Wikipedia)

      I have just finished reading – The Silk Roads – a New History of the World by Peter Frankopan

      He says “independence is never given it has to be taken.”

      Neither New Zealand nor Australia (my home) are properly independent,they are still part of the British empire …see Governor Generals, State Governors,the crown in parliament,their flags and honours systems. Even their clone BBC.

      As is obvious from Westminster’s bullying strategies during the NO campaigns (still in progress) they attempted to forment strife and division. They had no hesitation in spreading lies and confusions re the economy, the pound , people’s pensions, etc. They hoped for ‘troubles’ a la Ireland.

      The nonviolent response of the Scottish Government is to be commended. But it will never lead to independence.

      A revised Declaration of Scottish Independence is required and a campaign of civil disobedience begun.

    9. Liz Rannoch says:

      At last – had to go into recent comments ‘cos all the comments had disappeared!

      @ Robert Peffers 12.11am

      Thanks very much for the detailed, understandable explanation of the Declaration. As I said earlier (somewhere) more of a geograpyist than a historyist. Blame my teacher – was terrified of him!

      Back to EBC bias just heard on ‘breakfast’ (yeah I know but it’s often better to know what they’re up to) basically:
      4 weeks since eu vote, they’ve assembled a ‘special’ breakfast panel for reaction. The panel consists of; 6 people, 4 men 2 women. Older woman Scottish worried about the future of Scotland, 2nd indyref …. if Scotland votes to leave uk may apply for English passport! Panel will appear later in programme.

      How about somebody representative of Scotland?

    10. turnbulldrier says:

      There are currently no comments showing. This may bump things along a bit. Please ignore.

    11. X_Sticks says:

      In case anyone hasn’t seen this yet – Torygraph poll on how good a leader Nicola Sturgeon is:

      http://tinyurl.com/jlx6rxa

      The poll is at the bottom of the page (you don’t have to read the crap to vote). Now sitting at 52% in favour of Nicola. Can we bump it up a bit?

    12. DerekM says:

      Already bumped it x sticks though i have to say i feel rather dirty even visiting the torygraph and i would understand if others decided not to bother,well what ever the result it will be a blow to Sturgeon anyway.

    13. Macart says:

      Just clocked this on the Revs twitter feed from WGD.

      http://chronicle.gi/2016/07/spain-could-veto-brexit-talks-margallo-says/

      Oh the irony. 😮

    14. Stoker says:

      Can’t see any posts on this thread and haven’t been able to since approximately 6:30am this morning. I’m posting this in the hope the Rev (or someone else) can see it and looks into it (or alerts the Rev). This sort of glitch has been occurring for a few days now. There isn’t even any “Older” “Newer” comment links available.
      🙁

    15. Marie Clark says:

      test.

    16. louis.b.argyll says:

      Brian,

      You may have noticed, in your (telegraph) link that the chosen (last) picture of the First Minister is neither smiling nor talking, with the angle making her almost sneer-like.

      A nasty work of graphic design, complete, with a question mark right between the eyes.

    17. gerry parker says:

      Mmmm.

      X Sticks

      http://tinyurl.com/jlx6rxa

      Just visited and voted.
      result.1 vote 100% of people agree with you?????

    18. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      Weird – no comments?
      Testing 1,2,3!
      Testing 1,2,3!

    19. Lanarkist says:

      Westminster’s answer to Indy Result was EVEL.

      BBC response to most dynamic period of political change in 300 years, close down any dedicated Scottish political analysis.

      It seems the tactic is to silence us, remove alternative viewpoints from broadcast and print media.

      Shame that their tactics are only affecting their own reputation.

    20. Naina Tal says:

      Since we seem to have hit the magic 500 posts again, and moved to a new page, you can’t go back and read the previous comments because there is no back button.

      I’ve put in this post in the hope that once new comments are added, the button will magically appear. It’s what has happened before anyway.

    21. Naina Tal says:

      Yep, that worked. “Older comments” button now appears!
      Sorted!!

    22. Macart says:

      @Drew Sword

      We are being disobedient.

      We didn’t get back in our box.

      There will be marches and rallies I’m sure. May even be the odd protest. There will be meetings, discussion groups, organized evenings, local debates and activities of every shape and form, but if there is one society that cannot suffer civil disobedience and the grief that has the potential of bringing, its Scotland’s population.

      Who is there to be disobedient to in Scotland? The devolved government is very much on the side of achieveing full nation state status. The majority of MPs, MSPs and probably as of next year councils will all be pro independence. The only outpost of central state influence will be the state broadcaster BBC.

      As for the non violent approach never leading to independence? David Cameron would beg to differ. In his off mic moment when he let slip on the queens private thoughts, he freely admitted it was a close call.

      It took all the influence they could muster and one of the worst, most negative campaigns outside of the recent Brexit farce to merely stall independence.

      When it comes to blood shed and spilled in the pursuit of independence, Scotland has had more than its fair share throughout history. Might be this generation is the one which shows the world a different path and perhaps that too will one day find a place in some authors history book.

    23. Marie Clark says:

      Morning folks, I see from other wingers that I am not the only one having problems with the site. I have tried since about 7.00 this morning and there were no comments at all. It wasn’t until I posted a wee test ( which at the moment still isn’t showing ), that the comments appeared.

      What’s going on? Is it gremlins from the site upgrade, or DOS?

      Getting a bit mental. Oh and now I’m posting too quickly slow down.AAARGH.

    24. louis.b.argyll says:

      Gremlins folks? Pseudo glitches? Or is someone reading between the lines?

    25. Breeks says:

      Drew Sword @7:41

      To be honest Drew I am borderline ok/lukewarm about the route the Scottish Government is taking towards independence. Wouldn’t want to disrupt the master plan, I think it will secure Independence, but in the aftermath, I think we will find we were over cautious. Maybe that’s a good thing.

      I believe you are wrong however about Independence. The Declaration of Arbroath, and the Claim of Right are legally robust precedents which confer sovereignty onto the people of Scotland, and does so in perpetuity. Technically, the people of Scotland are sovereign, and can neither surrender that sovereignty nor have it taken from them. Ever.

      The 1707 Act of Union was a fudge, because it was not competent under Scots Law for Sovereignty to be usurped from the Scottish people and removed to Westminster. Nevertheless, this is ostensibly what happened, and the legal status of Scotland’s sovereignty has been buried and suppressed by the dominance of English method and devices in the united parliament; robust and sovereign under English Law, but fundamentally unsound and incompatible with Scotland’s legally binding popular sovereignty.

      What this boils down to is essentially that Scotland is, and always had been an independent sovereign state these past three centuries but neither the English Parliament not Scots Parliament have recognised the legal status of the issue.

      When Scotland declares its independence, by referendum or UDI, it is not the act of breaking a solid Union, but reverting back to the time when Scotland’s sovereignty held sway over what Scotland decided, and removing the Act of Union which was never actually competent legislation in the first place.

      Why the delicacy in declaring Independence? False premise or not, it’s the way the UK has been governed for over 300 years and there is settled inertia to be overcome. Our referendum in 2014 confirmed there is a large body of optinion which supports the Union, and dragging them by the nose to acknowledge the legal truth of Scotland’s circumstance could exacerbate division, and while it would deliver a properly independent Scotland, it might be one country, but cleaved in two by divided opinion.

      In the great game of chess, Scottish Independence has the luxury of check mate already in the bag. It is inevitable that Scotland will be independent, because it already is. The clever thinking and reason behind tempered action is to avoid crushing unionist opinion and provoking unrest, instability and civil strife between established doctrines of Unionism and Independence, and quietly allowing our government to extricate itself from a Union which is in denial and doesn’t recognise the legal precedence of Scotland’s sovereignty. – A second avenue for instability and strife to arise.

      Without the Declaration of Arbroath, and precedents which it set 700 years ago, this would be a whole different ball game. I don’t know enough about their constitutions to know whether New Zealand or Australia have top down sovereignty like England, or bottom up “republican” sovereignty like Scotland. I would suspect the former however, (and New Zealanders and Aussies might not like me saying so), but since the issue is always governed by precedence, then the status of former UK colonies might perhaps depend on the earlier sovereignty of the native populations who had British sovereignty forced upon them. True Independence possibly is beyond the reach of “colonists” in the explicit sense, but I’m not touching that subject with a barge pole. That could be a real can of whitchetty grubs…

    26. fionan says:

      on my screen there is a link saying ‘older comments’ which allows me to go back to the previous 500. Which I am off to do now.

    27. Naina Tal says:

      fionan
      I think the problem is that link doesn’t appear on the new page until someone adds a new comment. So if you just want to read all the comments, you have to wait until someone adds a new comment on the blank page. Then the link appears.

      How it appears to me anyway.

    28. Effijy says:

      With some interesting posts on the legalities of Scottish Sovereignty and Independence, I dread the though of us taking our claims to the Highest Court in the Land.

      That of course will be with Tory Toff Judges in London, who will have secrets that don’t wish to have uncovered, and
      who can be incentivised with potential pension increases, even seats in the House of Lords, if they forever find in favour of Westminster corruption.

      The situation reminds me of a Boxing Story where a Scottish Boxer fighting an American Champion, in the USA, actually needs to Kill his opponent in order to secure a draw.

    29. Effijy says:

      One of you lucky people are about to be come the 89,500th
      signature for the petition below protesting for an Enquiry into Blatant Biased Corruption on the BBC.

      Please send on to friends and family.

      https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-into-bbc-bias-regards-scottish-independence-referendum

    30. Marcia says:

      The contents of this article needs to have a wider audience, so it will open the eyes and minds of those who seem to think that the BBC is somehow neutral. Far from it.

    31. Andrew McLean says:

      Dr Jim,
      Taking things out of context is what will happen when Indy ref 2 kicks off, this time it will be bigger and nastier. Our opposition media centre will have no certainty going into the debate of wining, the tide has shifted. So just like last time we will get Vile Nats with newspaper admin workers, shifting through ever post in social media and taking posts out of context. No point making life easy for them is their Jim?

      We will also have a prominent ex SNP leader make off the cuff remarks that will seriously damage the campaign, that too is already being planned, you do realise that Jim?
      Now I don’t want my old colleagues smashing down my door at 3 am so read carefully, the 77 brigade are absolutely F all to do with Scotland, they do an important job, not everyone gets to jump through windows and shoot people!

      However disruption to political parties by the state apparatus has a long history in Britain, and you wouldn’t have to look very far indeed within the SNP and the yes movement to find not all is what it appears to be.

      Now this may ruffle some feathers, but the idea of surveillance of let’s say a movement with potentially violent members should be expected. You don’t have to paranoid to have the feeling you are being watched. And not just by people dropping by to find out “what’s this wings thing everyone is talking about”!

    32. galamcennalath says:

      I see France is saying ‘hurry up and get on with it’. Germany seems more patient.

      From a Scottish perspective the before and after Article 50 mean different negotiations.

      Before, and we are supposed to get input into the UK Brexit plan. Already WM are saying that we should have low expectations of special arrangements for Scotland.

      After, and we are probably expected to keep quiet and let our masters from London do the EU negotiating for us. What London wants, London won’t get from the EU. I’m certain of that!

      So none of that sounds to me like an outcome which reflects Scotland’s views and aspirations. IndyRef2 seems inevitable. But when?

      Do we effectively walk out of the pre Article 50 talks with WM saying they aren’t anywhere near what we need? Or, do we wait for the EU negotiated outcome, then pull the plug?

      WM might try to appease us initially then forget it all at the ‘big talks’ with the EU. That’s their style!

      When would we be most likely to win a Yes vote? Probably after we see the actual EU arrangements are unsuitable. If we went early, WM would wheel out a VowEU, then renege.

      Then of course there is what the EU want. Quick resolution and if Scotland what to stay, we will be accommodated. To suit this an early IndyRef2 might be better so we aren’t part of the rUK EU talks.

      Difficult calls for the SG!

    33. X_Sticks says:

      Last wee push for Independence Live – their crowdfunder is at 86% with less than a grand to go to reach their target.

      These wonderful folk brave all sorts of conditions (including live feeds from Wings social events!!) to bring you live streams of things you would NEVER otherwise see. They deserve all the support we can give them.

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indy-ref2-more-new-scottish-media-collaborations/x/101819#/

    34. Macart says:

      @galamcennalath

      Spain also going to prove a difficult nut to crack for Ms May.

      http://chronicle.gi/2016/07/spain-could-veto-brexit-talks-margallo-says/

    35. MJT says:

      I hope all the various elements of the Yes movement work together, and have a unified strategy for tackling the problem that is the BBC once we get into full Indy Ref2 mode.

      If we leave no stone unturned, if we can be on the front foot instead of on the defense, if we can make it as easy as can be for the folks who have not worked their way around to being Yes.

      I like the cut of Tommy Sheppard’s jib, when he says that the SNP need to reach out to the talent in the wider Yes Movement, outwith the SNP.

      Articles like this one by the Rev are what we need, but I think we need the SNP and the Greens and all the other YES groups to be shooting from a similar hip. I wasn’t too sold on the idea of billboards and other such forms of advertising at first, but I can see the value in it now.

      It’s easy for us, we know there’s a problem with the BBC, but we can’t assume everyone has the same knowledge we do. Inform and educate. What is to our advantage is we know how the BBC operates, and that they’re not able to change. In chess terms, we know their strategy and we know they have a finite number of available moves. If we’re smart we can outmaneuver them.

    36. Clootie says:

      Telegraph article by Tom Harrie – I’m always amused at the welcome EX-Labour politicians such asTom Harris receive from the right wing media and how comfortable they seem to be in that company.

      The Labour Party has been infiltrated and taken over. Unfortunately it was by the right (Blairites such as Tom). The people, ordinary members, are trying to take back their Party from Red Tories such as Tom Harris, Hilary Benn, Owen Smith etc. Who are all doing their best to protect Blairs legacy.

      Vote Labour get Tory.

    37. Grouse Beater says:

      Are new comments ‘younger’ comments, older ones ‘mature’ comments, and aged comments ‘curmudgeonly’ or ‘deceased’? Jist askin’.

      Can take only two minutes of a Trump speech. I know a repulsive demagogue when I hear one.

    38. Robert Peffers says:

      @Marie Clark says: 22 July, 2016 at 8:48 am:

      … What’s going on? Is it gremlins from the site upgrade, or DOS?”

      Probably neither, Marie.

      It looks like the same problem that has hit BT two days running has happened for a third day in succession.

      see:-

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/07/21/bt-down-broadband-internet-service-suffers-second-day-of-outages/

    39. Grouse Beater says:

      Thanks for the memories BBC Scotland: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-HE

    40. Ken500 says:

      The Tories will never be In power again in the UK. They have ruined the world economy. They are useless incompetent ‘psycho bastards’. A total farce. They cheated to win an election, broke electoral rules to destroy the world economy. They are an affront to Democracy. Manipulative, useless, liars wasting £Billions of public fund, sanctioning, starving and killing the vulnerable.

      Blair is still trying to control the Labour Party with his tax evaded money. Bankrupt liar.

    41. Ken500 says:

      The website is so popular.

      Thank Rev Stu for all you do. Thanks a billion.

      Thanks Nana for all the excellent links. You are incredible.

      Thanks to everyone.

    42. Andrew McLean says:

      Clootie says:

      please don’t take this the wrong way, but Labours troubles area side show, important only in the effect any change may make to our campaign, hopefully soon as relevant to say a right wing party taking control in France. England is more and more a divorced administration.

      It is interesting nevertheless to read a recent post on the revs twitter from a Old labour guy Sandy Richie, his narrative is interesting, he sees himself in a Labour party that long ago died, I know and understand that narrative, labour socialist and nationalist, British flavour. Born soon after WW2 reaching its zenith in the 70s in England 80’s in Scotland, but losing its way as the right wing took over, look at the leaders of old Scottish Labour today, covered in ermine, dead rat to me, and becoming in their own eyes lords and peers of the realm, just where they think they belong, where they were born to be, or rightly deserved after dedication to the State. Sandy in his dialogue hasn’t gasped the new political reality, neither has he cottoned on that when picking a fight on twitter, best not leave you’re account completely open? maybe a kindly friend will give him some advice!

    43. gordoz says:

      O/T

      Anyone heard hoe the Michelle Thomson & Natalie McGarry suspension issues are going.

      Has anything happened regarding the accusations / claims ?

      The press really have so much to answer for. The pressure these people are under must be excruciating and is hard to imagine.

      Rev if they are cleared will they be able to after the accusers / press.

      Just wondering what the latest was.

    44. galamcennalath says:

      Macart says:

      “Spain also going to prove a difficult nut to crack for Ms May.”

      The anti immigration voter on the street and UKIP may be pleased about the Leave win, but I reckon very few ‘serious’ politicians are! And that includes euro sceptics like May. The reality is just too messy to have to deal with.

      For me, it’s just an (almost) unexpected Indy opportunity!

      I really don’t see how May and her team are going to resolve the issues all pulling in different directions. Gibraltar, Scotland, N Ireland, the Union, free trade, open borders for UK people, reduced immigration (whatever that means to them). There will definitely not be one size fits all.

      Gibraltar and Spain will almost certainly impact on other things. It all depends how May et al dig their heals in. They have got themselves into a position where to achieve some of the things they didn’t really want to achieve, they are going to have to give up things they didn’t really want to give up!

      If they really are retreating to fortress England and Wales, the Indy for Scotland, reunification for Ireland, and shared sovereignty for Gibraltar, actually fit the plan!

      I suspect those who will be most disappointed are those sad individuals who expect to see reduced numbers of ‘foreigners’ around them. That seems an unlikely outcome. So civil unrest from that quarter is a possibility to add to WM’s problems.

    45. gordoz says:

      O/T

      Anyone heard how the Michelle Thomson & Natalie McGarry suspension issues are going.

      Has anything happened regarding the accusations / claims ?

      The press really have so much to answer for. The pressure these people are under must be excruciating and is hard to imagine.

      Rev if they are cleared, will they be able to go after the accusers / press?

      Just wondering what the latest was.

    46. call me dave says:

      Deputy Deadwood sends ‘billet doux’ to Fallon asking for 8 ships to start now or the Tories will lose the trust of the Scots. 🙂

      Just read that Gibraltar story. Spain veto on Brexit, the unintended consequences.

      Meanwhile, GMS on radio shortbread. Should breast feeding be allowed in the HoC?

      I thought most of the MPs darn Sarf were well practised at feeding off the UK teet…. Geez!

    47. Greannach says:

      Angela Eagle is rightly concerned about getting a brick through her office window, but she could look to a fellow MP for inspiration. Red Morningside’s MP Ian MurrY had to go through the living hell of getting a sticker placed on his office door. It’s taken time, but Ian is starting to rebuild his shattered life. Maybe he could counsel Angela and help the nightmare to end.

    48. Effijy says:

      Sorry for so many posts this morning, but-

      I just watched a programme about the Highland Clearances, fully supported by Westminster and their constabulary/militia.

      The situation drove men, women, and children into the sea
      and off of the land their families had worked for centuries.

      In essence, a Scottish family was deemed to be less worthy than the Laird’s sheep, who took over the land.

      The TV programme follows some of the Scottish families who spent everything they had for a one way ticket to
      Nova Scotia, Canada.

      By sailing ship 250 years ago, the journey took 6 weeks or more, with little by way of food or comfort along the way.

      On landing in Canada, most had to make their way on foot for many miles to find a piece of land that they could work and try to secure some crude form of existence.

      They would have to make clearings in thick forests by hand, they would face threats from the native Indians, and face temperatures of Minus -20 Degrees.

      Nova Scotia today is beautiful place with a great infrastructure, a thriving community and a growing economy

      There has also been a sharp 24% rise in public-sector investment in 2016.

      Now could some of the Westminster Politicians, BBC Reporters, and BUM Media, just remind me how today’s Scots, in Scotland, could not survive without England??

      Scots Wha Hae!

    49. Proud Cybernat says:

      So there I was last night, in my local nursing a pint and trying to watch the footie – Germany v Holland (U19s). Of course the OYQ (Obey Your Queenie) at the bar loved the sound of his own voice and was telling everyone and sundry how Britain was the greatest country on earth and how proud he was to have been born here. I could already feel my hackles rising with the ignorant drivel he was spewing forth. But I kept my council, gaze fixed to the big screen, occasionaly shouting out the occasional footie comment as the OYQ rambled on. It went something like this:

      Barman: “Sixty seven pence change there, Billy.”

      OYQ: “Sixty-seven – a don’t like that numbur! You’ll huv me singing the sash in a minute.”

      Me: “Arse!”

      He looked round to me at this point, saw I was staring at the footie, looked to the telly – the referee was having a wee word wi’ one of the players.

      OYQ: “A mean, that Alicsammon right. Told us he goat legal advice fae the EU. It wis a’ lies. Lies.”

      Me: “Pish!”

      He looks round again. Holland had just missed a sitter.

      OYQ: “We voted naw. If that Sturgeon ignores that vote, I’m out o’ this country. Aff tae South Africa or somewhere!”

      Me: “Ya beauty! Way tae go!”

      He looked round again. Holland had just taken a 2-1 lead in the 88th minute.

      I don’t think he ever figured it out…

    50. Effijy says:

      Next signature to this BBC Blatant Biased Corruption petition
      will be Number 89,500.

      Onwards to 90,000 Scots recognising the propaganda channel for what it really is!

      https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-into-bbc-bias-regards-scottish-independence-referendum

    51. gus1940 says:

      Much as I welcome the news that loathesome Eleanor Bradford has departed from PQ I hope that Lucy Adams has not drawn the short straw to become Bradford’s replacement as BBC Liar and Sensationalist re The Scottish NHS.

      She didn’t seem comfortable with the Monklands NHS Trust story earlier this week

      I have always found her particularly pleasing on the eye and she comes over as being a nice person and not suited to spout the sort of nonsense we were accustomed to with Bradford – I’m a sucker for a pretty face.

    52. heedtracker says:

      Coffee time with Kev”FiscalTransfer”rage.

      Kevin Hague ?@kevverage 50m50 minutes ago Gifford, Scotland
      worth reading if you’re more interested in tedious practical realities than simplistic grievance-stocking headlines

      https://archive.is/qPdqZ

      RUSI says stop moaning too, you can trust UK.gov, RUSI’s a n other independent UKOK thinktank, in Whitehall.

      Kev”FiscalTransfer”rage also probably means simplistic grievance-stoking but what’s stuff like spelling and making up phrases to one of the greatest economists of the modern era, and he is NOT a tory, not a yoon and not mad, maybe its a thing, victoria secrets tory boy grievance stocking line. Sponsored by Lord Sewell, sorry ohn Buttifant Sewel, Baron Sewel, CBE, from Durham, now Banchory.

    53. ScottishPsyche says:

      Owen Smith on Sky there talking about how bullying has become prevalent under Corbyn – that it was never there before.

      He is relatively new though, probably didn’t have much contact with Scottish Labour in their heyday. He has also obviously never heard of the McTernan tactics in Australia.

      Oh wait – isn’t McTernan his campaign manager?

    54. marydoll says:

      gusq940 11.05

      don’t be fooled by her. She was Radio 5(?) ‘Scotland ‘ political correspondent during indyref1. She has had plenty of practice in ‘SNP bad’. Now she does it on tv!

    55. Proud Cybernat says:

      Counsel, of course!

    56. Robert Peffers says:

      @Effijy says: 22 July, 2016 at 9:21 am:

      With some interesting posts on the legalities of Scottish Sovereignty and Independence, I dread the though of us taking our claims to the Highest Court in the Land.”

      Why, Effijy? There is absolutely no doubt that the Scottish legal system is still legally independent and the Westminster parliament lacks the legal competence to actually change that fact.

      Look at the evidence as it is there to be studied.

      In 1633 the old Scottish Parliament passed the Sovereignty of Scotland Act. This act is still in force and has never been repealed by Westminster. That means it is still on the statute book.

      Before 1688 the legal system throughout what was then Christendom, (mainly Europe), was, “The Divine Right of Kings”. Except here in Scotland where, since, “The Declaration of Arbroath”, was accepted by the then international authority, (The Pope in Rome), had made Scotland’s people legally sovereign.

      In 1688 the parliament of the Kingdom of England, (Three countries), had their, “Glorious Revolution”, when the Parliament of England deposed their monarch, (who also wore the crown of the still independent Kingdom of Scotland).

      This gave the English Parliament several large legal headaches. Obviously the logical step would have been for the English Parliament to become a republic but they found the established law of England prevented them from doing so. Their law rules that, “A sovereign, just by being sovereign, cannot give up their sovereignty”.

      That is not to say the sovereign cannot give up being the sovereign person. It means the sovereignty itself remains and passes to the next sovereign in line when the present sovereign, “abdicates”, their sovereignty.

      The point being that as God chooses, (by the hereditary birth), the sovereign person then anyone choosing to give away the God given sovereignty is going against Gods will.

      That was why they retained a legally sovereign monarchy but legally fudged the matter by offering King Billy & Queen Mary the joint crown of England but on condition they, “delegated”, their royal prerogative to the parliament of England. This made only the three Kingdom of England countries a, “Constitutional Monarchy”, in which everything still legally belongs to the monarchy but the delegated parliament are the legal delegates who exercise the royal powers.

      However, as the two Kingdoms were still independent, none of this legally applied to Scotland who had already solved the sovereignty problem by the, “Declaration of Arbroath”, in 1320 – some 368 years earlier. The proof of this matter is that there then began what the English wrongly call, “The Jacobite Rebellion”, as they, even then, claimed the English Parliament held legal sovereignty over the Kingdom of Scotland.

      However, as there was no Treaty of Union until 1706/7, the Scots could not be rebelling against a monarchy that was not their own chosen monarchs under the law of Scotland that was established in 1320 by the Declaration of Arbroath being internationally accepted by the then international authority. The Pope in Rome as leader of all Christendom.

      Thus began the Jacobite Uprisings that were still being fought between the two kingdoms almost 40 years after, “The Treaty of Union”, of 1706/7 at the battle of Culloden. The proof of that is the clause in, “The Treaty of Union”, that declares the Scottish Legal system, (and hence the English legal system), will remain, in perpetuity, independent of each other for the simplt reason the two were incompatible.

      It is thus total nonsense, and only based upon the English assumption without any legal basis, that the Union Parliament actually extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom.

      Nowhere is there any evidence, written or otherwise, that this is concept is true. In fact there have been several Scottish, “Claims of Right”, and laughably the last one was signed by all but one MP from Scottish constituencies. These signatories included Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling, Donald Dewar as Westminster MPs and the entire Scottish MSPs bar one Tory.

      ” … That of course will be with Tory Toff Judges in London”. Well no it will not. As the above explanation clearly shows that court really has no actual jurisdiction over Scottish law. It is not even competent under the basic laws of England and depends only upon the illegal claim that the Westminster parliament is has legal sovereignty over the sovereign people of Scotland.

      The best thing about Brexit is that the attention of the international courts are now beginning to focus upon the actual status of the United Kingdom. Not only in relation to the EU but in relation to its claim to be a unified country. It isn’t and that is why it is still titled, “The United KINGDOM”.

      In other words it is a member state in the EU but it contains four identifiable countries and it most certainly is NOT, Britain. It is only the United Kingdom of Britain & Northern Ireland part of Britain but it just likes to think it is all of Britain.

    57. Swami Backverandah says:

      Is heedtracker about?

      He might be interested in this excoriating blog post by award-winner Jonathan Cook about the “rancid groan” and their continuing ability to miss the mark almost as frequently as the Torygraph’s own John McTurpid.
      Here’s a sample.
      (I’d post the link but I’m supposed to use that archive method and I’m all out of cardboard boxes)
      It’s well worth a read. Search for jonathan-cook.net blog, it should come up.

      “Meanwhile, the Guardian, the house paper of the British left – long the preferred choice of teachers, social workers and Labour activists – has been savaging Corbyn too, all while it haemorrhages readers and sales revenue. Online, the Guardian’s reports and commentaries about the Labour leader – usually little more than character assassination or the reheating of gossip and innuendo – are ridiculed below the line by its own readers. And yet it ploughs on regardless.”

    58. CameronB Brodie says:

      I didn’t mention this yesterday, as I didn’t want to derail the discussion but I will continue refering to Zionism, Fascism and Marxism, as these are probably the most powerful sociopolitical expressions of Victorian modernist thought, which still shape our lives today.

      Just because you don’t acknowledge a thing does not mean it does not exist!

    59. Robert Peffers says:

      @Grouse Beater says: 22 July, 2016 at 10:02 am:
      ” … Can take only two minutes of a Trump speech. I know a repulsive demagogue when I hear one.”

      You are not alone, Grouse Beater. I’m just about old enough to remember the rise of the NAZI movement in Germany that led to WWII. and the Adolf Hitler speeches.

      On listening to Trump’s son’s much praised speech my blood ran cold as I could detect the very same threads of extreme right wing values running through that speech.

    60. Marie Clark says:

      Robert Peffers, you’re a great man for giving us lessons in the constitution, and we are all the wiser for it, thank you.

      I’d like to ask you a question if I may be so bold, and if it’s a daft one, well send me to the naughty step.

      Robert, under the articles of union, are we, that is Scotland, able to say to the kingdom of England and Wales, we’ve had enough of this union and we’re off out of here. Divorce, talk about the division of assets and goodbye.
      I mean I well understand all of the political ramifications, but just the straight nuts and bolts, are we legally entitled to bugger off if we want to.

    61. Lochside says:

      Gus1940..re Lucy Adams..don’t be beguiled by a pretty face.She’s a seasoned unionist dupe.Brought in during the REF campaign to lie like hell. She and 15 other ‘apprentice journalists were shipped up from merrie England to keep us in the box.

      Boothman’s babes ensured that the accents of our colonial masters were constantly being dripfed into our lugs. Maintaining our unconscious inferiority at all times.

      Lezia Dougdale inspires the same adoration from some on this site. Poor old Ruthie Tank commander, exuding the sex appeal of a chewed slipper, has no fans owing to her uncanny resemblance to the school sneak..Billy Hunter.

      Me?…I see them all as lying scum, self seekers trying to line their pockets and purses at the expense of the poor and disabled of our country. What do we call people, pretty or otherwise who sell their nation for cash?…..I’ll let you fill in the blanks…and btw week Lucy still cannae say the ‘Scotland’without an infuriating global stop!

    62. Dr Jim says:

      In all Labours falling apart and break ups bullying stuff and leadership fights there seems to be one thing (Call me cynical) they’re doing right (For themselves that is)

      The Labour party are making Millions of pounds from disaffected voters from all sides by having them join up to get a vote

      If the new guy doesn’t win, which looks likely, will they do it all over again and have the biggest political party in the world who’s votes only count till the next time

      Is this Pyramid sales politics

    63. sinky says:

      Yoons in Scotsman et al hyperventilating over George Kerevan’s article on “fiscal austerity after independence”

      However the clue is in the title of the article

      http://www.cityam.com/245697/independent-scotland-inside-eu-would-economic-powerhouse

    64. liz g says:

      Marie Clarke @ 11.49
      I know you were asking Robert and I am sure he will give you the nuts and bolts of the issue.
      But basically the answer is yes,we can at anytime go our own way.
      We have always had the ability to do that.
      The Union is just a Treaty.
      Pretty much like being in the EU.
      Can you imagine the EU saying that the UK has to stay,its been in to long to ever leave.
      A Treaty needs the signatories to agree to the terms and conditions.

    65. CameronB Brodie says:

      Clootie
      “protecting Blairs legacy”

      I don’t know if this is related but my usual routine was interrupted the other day, when I was invited to attend an interview at my local Job Center Plus. While waiting to be seen, a staff member announced that there would be a one minute silence to show solidarity with those killed in Nice. My response was to ask if we would be holding a similar minutes silence in solidarity with the estimated 4-6 million innocent civilian killed as a result of the “War on Terror”. I especially projected my voice so none in the open-plan office would be able to avoid hearing.

      Remember back to school, when the teacher drop some potassium in to water. She went ballistic, coming across all authoritarian and aggressive. What fun. :0

      Anyway, I remained silent, until she announce the commencement of the minute, at which point I stood and repeated my question. She went ballistic again. 🙂

      I could tell you more about what went down next but that might compromise my interviewer. All very enlightening though and indicative of the essential ethical hypocrisy of British Labour.

    66. Alan Mackintosh says:

      And now for some light relief. Just saw this on Stu’s twitter feed and thought I would share it here.

      ‘Corbyn told me to vote with my conscience but I don’t even have one,’ cried the Labour MP #LabourBullying

    67. Effijy says:

      Robert Peffers says:

      22 July, 2016 at 11:28 am

      @Effijy says: 22 July, 2016 at 9:21 am:

      With some interesting posts on the legalities of Scottish Sovereignty and Independence, I dread the though of us taking our claims to the Highest Court in the Land.”

      Why, Effijy? There is absolutely no doubt that the Scottish legal system is still legally independent and the Westminster parliament lacks the legal competence to actually change that fact.

      You are an education Robert! Thank you!

      When I retire, I think I’ll do a Degree In Peffersology!

      Still sounds like a Draw to me? lol

    68. Valerie says:

      If we don’t take our independence via a referendum, or other, then we don’t deserve it.

      This country is in crisis, and we are in danger of going down with it.

      Those ships on the Clyde will never materialise, unless they are offered in the run up to indyref2, and they will disappear again.

      Humza Yousaf described the farce as ‘a slap’. I disagree, it’s more a punch in the mouth, and if those workers still believe the unionist lies, hell mend them. The facts are staring them in the face.

      Watching Trump, BoJo as a laughing stock, yawning at meetings, the EU leaders calling out the UK, countries refusing to negotiate trade until Brexit, the Labour clusterfuck, to mention but the tip of the iceberg.

      It’s getting to the stage, that even if we were poorer, it’s still not as poor as we will be under WM.

      If we wait too long, companies that looked at Edinburgh, will be long gone.

    69. Andrew McLean says:

      Anyway back in the madhouse, anyone who believes thatcher May is in any way a competent politician and not as I said an ideologically corrupt fanatic, this is news you wont see on the BBC tonight, if you don’t like clicking links, this is Boris “Moonstone” outing a Journalist as a SIS agent, MI6 to you, and also saying that a national newspaper gave cover to active agents as foreign corespondents, not only endangering those working in “defence of the realm”, but the poor journalists who may have become “legitimate” targets for foreign state operatives or terrorists.

      Aye Thatcher May is a cracker!

      http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/britain/boris-johnson-outed-journalist-as-an-mi6-spy-for-a-laugh-34903625.html

    70. Kevin Evans says:

      Jim Sillars will be wheeled out again by the media and associated with the SNP again. In big letters on screen it will try to promote him as an SNP leader.

      Best thing that coul happen for yes2 is for Jim to take a heart attack. He is a big mouthed clown who needs to just F off before he put his arrogant foot in it again.

    71. Robert Peffers says:

      @Effijy says: 22 July, 2016 at 10:53 am:

      “I just watched a programme about the Highland Clearances, fully supported by Westminster and their constabulary/militia.”

      Well, Effijy, It is not generally realised that Westminster cleared all Scotland but used different strategies on different Scottish regions.

      The reason being the Highlands clan system, the Lowlands feeing on farming system and the Southern Uplands extended family systems in existence before Westminster decided to remove the threat of Scottish opposition to Westminster.

      The Highland clan system was based upon the local chieftains giving their clansmen a bit of land to croft in return the clanspeople not only fought for the Clan Cieftain, or Laird, but contributed some crops and other services to the chieftains. The thing was the Highlanders saw those crofts as their own home property.

      No such thing in the lowland system. The farm and estate workers had no homes of their own. The landowners or tenant farmers went to annual, “Feeing on”, Markets and fee’d on the workers.

      Married couples got a tied hovel in a, “Pluchie’s Raw”, (Plowman’s Row), unmarried men were lodged in Farm Bothies and female workers, (Kitchies), were lodged in the Big Hoose. Usually in attics or below stairs cellar areas. Then at the next Fee’in Oan Merkit the landowner packed the worker into carts with their, “Pluckie’s Kists”, (Ploughman’s Chests), and took them to the Merkit.

      If they were not, “fee’d oan”, at that market there was a law brought in to deal with that contingency, “The Vagrancy Acts”, which were only partially repealed in the late 1990s.

      If a worker did not get fee’d oan, then that worker had no home as homes were tied to their jobs. So no job, no wages and no home.

      Then along came the local plod and arrested them, “As having no visible means of support”. They were then sentenced like criminals to either The Workhouse, The Poorhouse or transported to the Colonies.

      The Highlanders were treated much more brutally for the reason they considered their crofts belonged to them and some were ready to fight for their home.

      However, being without any visible means of support had only limited results – a life of crime, real starvation, death or a life of virtual slavery.

      BTW: Many Highlanders did not end up in the colonies. Many more went south to the central belt to work in the new industries like Iron smelting, timber work, mining and the factories of the new industrial age. But that’s another story.

    72. Stoker says:

      President Hollande encounters Mayhem over immigration

      Bonjour your Mad-i-ness and welcome to democratic France!
      http://archive.is/ZLcxi

      Now, please, let me show you straight back to your car before we all catch your mad cow disease and you can feck right off back to your own wee country you dirty foreigner!
      http://archive.is/ZstsW

      President Hollande: (in ma best French accent):
      (((RIGHT, WHAT B@$T@RD LET HER PASS THROUGH QUARANTINE?)))

    73. Cactus says:

      @O/T

      Heard this song played on Planet Rock radio earlier.. appears appropriate so thought I’d share it with you.

      For The People ~ by Monster Truck
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKv4MNo03zY

      I reckon this band would go down a treat gigging on Glasgow Green, just check out the chorus.. would also sound grand being piped into and around Freedom Square 🙂

    74. Graeme says:

      Effijy says:
      22 July, 2016 at 12:47 pm

      Robert Peffers says:

      22 July, 2016 at 11:28 am

      @Effijy says: 22 July, 2016 at 9:21 am:

      With some interesting posts on the legalities of Scottish Sovereignty and Independence, I dread the though of us taking our claims to the Highest Court in the Land.”

      Why, Effijy? There is absolutely no doubt that the Scottish legal system is still legally independent and the Westminster parliament lacks the legal competence to actually change that fact.

      I don’t doubt for a minute we have the legal right to dissolve the union at any time we please but I don’t think the problem lies in the legalities,

      If the Scottish people are sovereign we need to remember approximately half of them are self loathing cringers who don’t want to leave the Union (at least at the last count)

      If a poll showed 80% in favour of independence I’d say go for UDI now but if we did that under the present circumstances there would be mayhem on the streets and who knows where it would lead.

      Unfortunately as I see it the only way to gain independence at this stage is via a referendum and hopefully with a large majority in favour

      It is not the British establishment preventing our independence, the enemy lies within

      Graeme

    75. mike cassidy says:

      So who’s better?

      Owen Smith

      http://archive.is/rmM5E

      or Owen Smith

      http://archive.is/U2hJ9

      There’s only one way to find out.

      FIGHT!

      Oh, and while they are fighting, please note that none of the people concerned seem to think that EVEL precludes a Welsh-constituency MP becoming a UK prime minister.

      Now I’m sure Raging Ruth finds that interesting.

    76. Marie Clark says:

      Liz G @ 12.28, thank you for your answer. It is pretty much what I thought, but as you say, nae doot Robert will be along to give us the answer in full.

    77. Robert Kerr says:

      @Robert Peffers

      An interesting book. Worth a read.

      http://www.birlinn.co.uk/The-Lowland-Clearances-9781780270692.html

      I thank you personally for your erudite explanations of our constitutional history.

      It’s coming yet !

    78. gordoz says:

      From SNP website

      Membership now 120,000 and rising !

    79. Andrew McLean says:

      Robert Peffers, have you ever written a book or journal? if not I think it long past time you did.
      Apologies if you have and I am to thick to know that!

    80. heedtracker says:

      https://twitter.com/dhothersall

      https://twitter.com/euanmccolm

      Another day of red and blue tories attacking the Labour party, for another two months. It hard to care much about third party SLab now but BBC r4 lunchtime pile in too, and then they had something about the UKOK Brexit economy going to rat shit.

      We are reined over by fuckwits.

    81. heedtracker says:

      Is 70 NOT a good IQ for Murdoch’s boys?

      Kenny Farquharson Retweeted Kenny Farquharson
      Today’s column in @thetimes.Kenny Farquharson added,
      Kenny Farquharson @KennyFarq
      If Labour at Westminster splits, Kez should declare independence for Scottish Labour. My column in @thetimes today. http://www.thetimes.

    82. CameronB Brodie says:

      I could tell you more about what went down next but that might compromise my interviewer. All very enlightening though and indicative of the essential ethical hypocrisy of British Labour.

      I managed to establish that my run-in had been with the (?) union rep., so I’m assuming she would be a Labour voter and possibly member. Low-caloric logic for skinny-minded thinking, perhaps? Sorry. 🙂

    83. mike cassidy says:

      re constitutional matters

      From

      http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/england-scotland-and-treaty-union-1706-08

      “Since the Union was to take effect from 1 May 1707, the Treaty declared that the first Parliament of Great Britain was to last for the duration remaining of the current parliament at Westminster. Members of the Scottish parliament who had opposed the Union pressed for a general election in Scotland to elect the 45 Scots MPs. But it was agreed instead that the first Scots MPs should be chosen from, and elected by, the existing parliament in Edinburgh rather than run the risk of allowing Scotland’s small electorate an early opportunity to elect an anti-union majority. Virtually all the peers and commoners selected had supported the Union and most could be counted on to support the Court in the new Parliament.”

      “The general election in 1708 gave Scottish voters their first chance of electing representatives to the united Parliament. But the years immediately ahead saw Scottish MPs frequently at odds with British ministers over failure to honour vital aspects of the Treaty.”

      The more things change….

    84. Nana says:

      struggling typing today, anyhow spoke to a friend earlier. She tells me her daughter’s work colleagues[of which there are many & previous no voters] are now all yes. I’m hearing same from other folks.

      Angus Robertson says

      http://archive.is/LYtDv

      Nicola-sturgeon-address-emergency-british-irish-council-post-brexit-meeting

      Lagarde to stand trial
      http://bigstory.ap.org/0fe7692ede434d4db63af639385b2d37

      http://politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/07/21/broken-pledge-children-to-be-sent-back-to-immigration-detent

    85. manandboy says:

      The Electorate are all seated, while the Government is playing its parts on the Westminster stage. But what we are watching is a pantomime which the voters have been told is a true story.
      The leading lady’s previous role as Secretary of State, for six years, saw her vote time and again for austerity measures against the underprivileged, but in her new role, she tells us she has swapped sides and will, from now on, be thinking primarily about the poor and the needy. Then there’s Boris Johnson.

      Don’t be fooled – Theresa May and her Cabinet have the word ‘temporary’ written all over them.

      The Tories have lost interest in actually governing or managing the UK ; they have no plan for Brexit, none whatsoever. They haven’t a clue what to do but it’s because they are not interested in getting to work and doing the job. The Tories merely want to be in charge so that they can do what they want – but that doesn’t include working hard for the UK.

    86. Lochside says:

      The highest court in the ‘land’ is the Supreme Court.Established by Tony Bliar.Any legal bid by a devolved Scottish parliament to declare independence would be overruled by this body.

      The Scottish parliament would have to declare a referendum and win it substantially to gain international recognition that we were independent. This would have to come via EU and United Nation recognition.
      Only then would Perfidious Albion maybe relentlessly and recognize our sovereignty publicly. UDI is a non starter without a winning plebiscite first.

    87. Robert Peffers says:

      @ Liz G and Marie Clark.
      Sorry ladies but I’ve been losing my connection to the internet today. It has gone down several times.

      I lost two detailed and long answers so this short version will needs do for now.

      English Law has a basic tennet that just by being sovereign a sovereign cannot renounce sovereignty. That is they can abdicate their personal sovereignty but cannot renounce the sovereignty of the Kingdom. It is a religious thing and from the days when there was a real fear of Gods wrath, especially amongst the uneducated or poorly educated.

      However, there is legal precedent in English law and English law is mainly based upon precedent. You will, though, find it very hard to find this in any records as Westminster is adept at hiding such things. It is though to be found in Hansard.

      So, in 1688, when the English Parliament overthrew their monarch, (who also wore the still independent crown of Scotland), they were faced with a legal dilemma. The Crown was sovereign and English law was then, (unlike Scotland), still under the law of, “Divine Right of Kings”.

      That is God, by births, appointed the Sovereign Monarch. So a monarch who defied God’s will was setting themselves up as superior to God. So while they could abdicate their personal sovereignty they ceased to be monarch and God selected the next sovereign in line – “The King is dead: Long Live the King”, and the kingdom’s sovereignty remained intact.

      So in the Glorious Revolution of 1688 the English Parliament did not just throw out the English Kingdom’s sovereign king who also wore the still independent crown of Scotland – they deposed him and invited King Billy & Queen Mary of Orange to accept the English Crown but on condition they delegated their sovereign powers to the parliament of England. They thus made the Kingdom of England, “A Constitutional Monarchy”. In which everything still belongs to the still legally sovereign monarch but the sovereign monarch delegated the parliament of England to exercise their royal prerogative.

      Scotland sorted out that little problem several centuries previously by the Declaration of Arbroath, (1320), that the Pope had accepted as the people of Scotland being sovereign and their monarchy just the defenders of the people’s sovereignty.

      So the two Kingdoms had a fundamental different legal basis and were incompatible with each other. That Glorious Revolution also saw the Kingdom of England assume they had sovereignty over Scotland but nothing to legally back their assumptions.

      It kicked off what England still claims as The Jacobite Rebellion – but the Scots could not rebel as the Monarchy of England was not now the monarch of Scotland – so the Jacobite uprisings were actually a war between two kingdoms with England attempting to take over Scotland.

      Which was why they needed a Treaty of Union in 1706/7. Why would they need a Treaty of Union if either the so called Union of the Crowns of 1603, or the English Glorious Revolution had actually united the two kingdoms?

      Yet that Treaty of Union still had Westminster fighting the Jacobite uprisings in 1745 – nearly 40 years after the so called Treaty of Union was supposed to have united the kingdoms?

      There have been several Scottish Claims of Right where the Scots claimed the Treaty was a bi-partite union between two equally sovereign partner kingdoms – all have been ignored by Westminster who have always assumed they hold sovereignty over Scotland yet there is not a single bit of recorded written evidence to support they assumptions.

      It thus remains a Westminster assumption and nothing else. Basically it means that the Westminster MPs from England, Wales and N.I, legally exercise the English Monarch’s sovereignty, Note that it is legally Her Majesty’s Government but the Westminster MPs from Scotland are exercising the people of Scotland’s sovereignty. Thus, provided the Sovereign People of Scotland mandate their appointed representatives at Westminster to leave the Union then they have no other option than to obey the sovereign people’s mandate.

      Which is exactly what Nicola has been telling us all along – it is up to the people of Scotland, and not either herself or the Scottish Government, if and when Scotland decides to legally regain her independence.

    88. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Kevin Evans 12:59

      Disgraceful comment. Wash your mouth out.

    89. Robert Peffers says:

      @ Liz G and Marie Clark.
      Sorry ladies but I’ve been losing my connection to the internet today. It has gone down several times.

      I lost two detailed and long answers so this short, (cough!), version will needs do for now.

      English Law has a basic tennet that just by being sovereign a sovereign cannot renounce sovereignty. That is, they can abdicate their personal sovereignty but cannot renounce the sovereignty of the Kingdom. It is a religious thing and from the days when there was a real fear of Gods wrath, especially amongst the uneducated or poorly educated.

      However, there is legal precedent in English law and English law is mainly based upon precedent. You will, though, find it very hard to find this in any records as Westminster is adept at hiding such things. It is though to be found in Hansard.

      So, in 1688, when the English Parliament overthrew their monarch, (who also wore the still independent crown of Scotland), they were faced with a legal dilemma. The Crown was sovereign and English law was then, (unlike Scotland), still under the law of, “Divine Right of Kings”.

      That is God, by births, appointed the Sovereign Monarch. So a monarch who defied God’s will was setting themselves up as superior to God. So while they could abdicate their personal sovereignty they ceased to be monarch and God selected the next sovereign in line – “The King is dead: Long Live the King”, and the kingdom’s sovereignty remained intact.

      So in the Glorious Revolution of 1688 the English Parliament did not just throw out the English Kingdom’s sovereign king who also wore the still independent crown of Scotland – they deposed him and invited King Billy & Queen Mary of Orange to accept the English Crown but on condition they delegated their sovereign powers to the parliament of England.

      They thus made the Kingdom of England, “A Constitutional Monarchy”, instead of a republic. In which everything still belongs to the still legally sovereign monarch but the sovereign monarch delegated the parliament of England to exercise their royal prerogative.

      Scotland sorted out that little problem several centuries previously by the Declaration of Arbroath, (1320), that the Pope had accepted as the people of Scotland being sovereign and their monarchy were just the defenders of the people’s sovereignty.

      So the two Kingdoms had a fundamental different legal basis and were incompatible with each other. That Glorious Revolution also saw the Kingdom of England assume they had sovereignty over Scotland but nothing to legally back their assumptions.

      It kicked off what England still claims as The Jacobite Rebellion – but the Scots could not rebel as the Monarchy of England was not now the monarch of Scotland – so the Jacobite uprisings were actually a war between two kingdoms with England attempting to take over Scotland.

      Which was why they needed a Treaty of Union in 1706/7. Why would they need a Treaty of Union if either the so called Union of the Crowns of 1603, or the English Glorious Revolution had actually united the two kingdoms?

      Yet that Treaty of Union still had Westminster fighting the Jacobite uprisings in 1745 – nearly 40 years after the so called Treaty of Union was supposed to have united the kingdoms?

      There have been several Scottish Claims of Right where the Scots claimed the Treaty was a bi-partite union between two equally sovereign partner kingdoms – all have been ignored by Westminster who have always assumed they hold sovereignty over Scotland yet there is not a single bit of recorded written evidence to support their assumptions.

      It thus remains a Westminster assumption and nothing else. Basically it means that the Westminster MPs from England, Wales and N.I, legally exercise the English Monarch’s sovereignty, Note that it is legally Her Majesty’s Government but the Westminster MPs from Scotland are exercising the people of Scotland’s sovereignty. Thus, provided the Sovereign People of Scotland mandate their appointed representatives at Westminster to leave the Union, then they have no other option than to obey the sovereign people’s mandate.

      Which is exactly what Nicola has been telling us all along – it is up to the people of Scotland, and not either herself or the Scottish Government, if and when Scotland decides to legally regain her independence.

    90. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Robert Peffers

      “…the English Parliament did not just throw out the English Kingdom’s sovereign king who also wore the still independent crown of Scotland – they deposed him…”

      Just curious, Robert. Who or what gave the English Parliament the sovereign power to depose their sovereign?

    91. a says:

      Lochside, re the Supreme Court. My understanding is that although it was set up by Blair as just that, it has itself admitted that it has no jurisdiction over Scots Law as it is completely distinct and separate from English Law. (IANAL)

    92. ScottishPsyche says:

      Good to see the SG just getting on with things as Labour implodes. While Tories are busy preening, gloating and congratulating themselves, Nicola Sturgeon can get as much info and support as she can.

      However the problem of the left Yes is one which will continue to stymie meaningful progress as they talk themselves into tortured paralysis. Already there are social media conversations about Indy Scotland not being left enough so why bother.The same crowd who coined the ‘wheesht for Indy’.

      Hopefully there are enough disappointed Brexit converts and disillusioned NOs who will more than compensate should Indyref2 come about soon.

      As for the Yes campaign – it was good in parts but it wasn’t successful so novel strategies are needed. Maybe the best parts for many were the grassroots groups but you cannot manufacture or replicate spontaneity so hard facts and answers are needed now.

      By definition anything grassroots will evolve naturally anyway.

    93. Marie Clark says:

      Robert Peffers @ 2.53. Thank you sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar, and we are all the wiser for having you here.

      Whit wid we dae withoot ye, eh?

    94. Stoker says:

      gordoz wrote: “From SNP website-Membership now 120,000 and rising”

      Great news gordoz!

      Now, just think how the Unionists must be sweating themselves over that fact, coupled with the fact there are thousands more, just like me, who for one reason or another will never join the SNP but have always voted for and supported the SNP at every level and will continue to do so until the big day arrives.
      I can feel a tune coming on 😉

      Beach Boys – I can hear music
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqyx4TW4Ptw

      And wan furr oor Nicola if she’s lookin in!

      Beach Boys – (Lets get together and) Do it again
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQxdx-ScCvg

    95. AnTeallach says:

      Nana @ 2.46
      That was a great link, Nana re Royal Navy though it didnae have make my blood boil!!

      http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/why-relocating-trident-away-from-scotland-is-virtually-impossible/

      Especially these bits:
      “Unsurprisingly the 58 Scottish nationalist MPs voted against and their defeat will be another ‘grievance’ used to push for another referendum on independence. ”

      And when discussing possible alternative sites in Engerland

      “Devonport […] Unfortunately it would be very close to the 250,000 inhabitants of Plymouth exposed to the (small) risks of missile explosion and possible plutonium release ”

      “Falmouth […] The depot would not create many long-term jobs and would impact badly on area heavily reliant on tourism and water sports as well as being too close to the 26,000 people living in Falmouth.”

      “Portland […]The only possibility for an armaments depot in the region would be in an area of considerable natural beauty, taking over the Army’s Lulworth tank training ranges with the EHJ located close to the renowned Lulworth Cove beach.”

      Aaaaargh!!

      Thanks for all the great links , as ever, Nana 😀

    96. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I have this uncomfortable feeling that, should the matter of Scottish Independence ever come before the Supreme Court, we might find that this is just another ill-thought-out populist notion, cobbled together by Tony B Liar and his cronies.

      As I understand it, there are at least two senior Court of Session judges who are seconded to the Supreme Court to advise and guide their colleagues on these cases before them which have come down from the Court of Session. I would presume, therefore, if anything to do with Independence ever ends up before the Supreme Court, the two Court of Session appointees would be the main men, or women. That is a helluva lot of power to place in two pairs of hands.

    97. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Great links as usual, but take it easy with those hands. 😉

    98. Stoker says:

      Regarding this part of my previous post at 3:30pm:

      “And wan furr oor Nicola if she’s lookin in!
      Beach Boys – (Lets get together and) Do it again”
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQxdx-ScCvg

      *tsk* DAMN IT! I meant to add under the link ‘(Re: Referendum)’.

      Ma fricken heeds aw ower the place the day, jist like this thread,
      am away back tae bed! 🙁

    99. carjamtic says:

      Kev @ 12:59

      Chill Out….

      One day,this will us,if not already….hankies at the ready

      For Jim,For ALL of us,Peace,Love and Understanding.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uKGWpqnS8E

      🙂

    100. Jack Murphy says:

      Thanks for the Memory. 🙂
      Deserves a re-post near the end of this thread. Sorry Wings.

      Grouse Beater said at 10:13 am
      “Thanks for the memories BBC Scotland:
      http://wp.me/p4fd9j-HE

      Well worth a quick 10 minute read about the BBC in Scotland.

    101. Grouse Beater says:

      BREAKING NEWS:
      “Intelligence services posing as Jeremy Corbyn supporters could be behind the abuse and intimidation of MPs on social media in an attempt to “stir up trouble” for the Labour leader, the Unite boss Len McCluskey has suggested.”

      From my experience of MI5, that’s not as outlandish as it might appear.

      And it’s exactly my attitude to Herr Rock and his one-note like who attack SNP policy, SNP leadership, and everybody here for being ‘pussies’, or worse, all at a relentless onslaught. No one can be that angry all the time.

      The result is the casual reader assumes we have an element of head-bangers, enough to dissuade them not to support the SNP’s ambitions.

      (Gabion Scheme: three gabions filled with rock and buried, plus two on top, so far. Only 180 to go … time for a break and the BFG, bits filmed in Skye. Review tonight.)

    102. CameronB Brodie says:

      AnTeallach
      Scotland has always been considered an appropriate ‘sacrifice site’ for all the nasty UKOK stuff deemed as unacceptably risky or detrimental for/to English continuances.

      I knew the dude who ran the Environmental Impact Assessment related to the proposal to turn an island off the coast of Harris, in to a repository for English waste (can’t remeber which island).

      Nice guy, family friend and all but crushingly English. What was most depressing was that this otherwise intelligent man was simply unable to differentiate between England and Britain. My attempts at explaining the difference would usually be dismissed as romantic fantasy.

      Strange that? Perhaps I would understand if I was English and had grown up in England.

    103. Kevin Evans says:

      @caramtic @4:27

      I used to enjoying listening to mr Sillars. But he is a fool if he doesn’t realise he is now a BBC and UK stooge.

      He must be getting a little senile as he was a once wise man but now he is truly a puppet used by the media.

      I remember clearly my no voting friends joy when Sillars started his ranting during the refurendum and my no voting neighbour saying it straight that “all the talk of retribution is turning folk away from yes and the media were making sure that message got out there”. He said with glee.

      Sillars needs to either screw the nut or keep his mouth shut.

    104. CameronB Brodie says:

      continuances = constituencies 🙂

    105. liz g says:

      Socrates McSporran @ 4.07
      You are probably right the so called Supreme Court was criticised at it’s inception,because it’s remit could put it on collision course with the Court of Session.
      Judge’s as a rule do not like to be seen to be in straying into politics.

      There were many opinions around that a clash between the two court’s would result in either Scottish law being overruled by English Law or as was/is the most likely outcome Scottish law being held to be the actual Supreme body in matters relating to Scotland (Robert Peffers demonstrates why)

      There were warnings that a case of this nature would if nothing else highlight to Scot’s the separate nature and powers of our law.

      The answer to this is the appointment of the Scottish judges with the claim that this is how Scottish laws interests are looked after.

      The flaw in the plan is that in theory ALL of the Jealously garded power of the Scottish Judiciary would/could be handed to only these two judge’s.
      AND these two judge’s could be out voted by their more numerous English counter parts….this sound familiar…..

      Anyhoo there has only ever to date been one case gone from the Court of Session to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court upheld the Judgement so a difference of opinion has not been tested.

      But and it’s a big but..the precedent has been set for cases actually moving “up” from the Court of Session to the Supreme Court for final judgement.

      Will reference the above information if anyone really, really wants me to.
      But will need to wait for my daughter to help as I only know this stuff from proof reading her research for her dissertation.

    106. Bob Mack says:

      @Grouse Beater,

      I think the intelligence services are indeed behind the plot to discredit Corbyn. There are numerous sites on social network media all giving out the same anti Corbyn rhetoric, word for word ,but allegedly from random members of the public with anonymous profiles. 77 Brigade?
      They would envisage Corbyns popularity as a threat to their “Democracy”
      I remember well the attempted coup against Wilson from the Establishment.

    107. One_Scot says:

      “If we don’t take our independence via a referendum, or other, then we don’t deserve it.”

      Or the other possibility is, maybe the ‘system’ is so institutionally corrupt and biased that we can never win.

    108. Caroline Corfield says:

      Wrt relocation of Trident, did I just imagine that Cumbria councillors put forward Barrow as a location? I’m sure I recall them taking some sort of vote on it. Or was that some other nuclear thing. Still, it would be a possible location except for needing to exit the Irish Sea, but then if NI joins Eire Faslane has an indentical type of access problem.

    109. Valerie says:

      @ Nana
      Hand healing vibes to you.

      Left a wee comment on the Royal Navy site. What an attack piece and justification for rendering us a wasteland. I so want Trident gone, but even if we do become independent, it will be decades and billions to even half restore or convert the areas. It disgusts me.

      BTW, don’t know if anyone picked it up, but the mystery of Farage resigning, now becomes clear. He is touring EU countries to preach referenda, and shit stir. A suitable use of his talents.

      No doubt funded by Murdoch, big business, who find workers rights abhorrent.

    110. Bill says:

      Caroline et al

      No. Cumbria can’t take Trident or ANY where else.

      Best Regards

      Bill

    111. Thepnr says:

      Last night and not for the first time I lost my rag on Wings.

      Not a good example to set and I apologise for the language used to get a point across.

      The thing about this social media business is that it is open to all for scrutiny and casting up later if they like.

      I neeed to keep reminding myself of that.

    112. Greannach says:

      I dreamed that Jeremy Corbyn called me a “foolish ninny”. Should I tell Owen Smyth about this ruthless abuse or just go straight to Sky News? Do I get a cheque?

    113. Bill says:

      Nana,

      Why is it when you state Trident can’t be moved you’re a darling, when I said it in 2013 I was vilified?

      Trident or its successor isn’t going anywhere.

    114. mike cassidy says:

      Here’s a quote from that ‘savetheroyalnavy’ site to which the wonderful nana directed us .

      http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/about-us/

      “Established in 2007, we are an independent voice. Save The Royal Navy is an online campaign but not an organisation as such. The owners of the site are informed and interested civilians with contributors and supporters which include ex-forces personnel and academics. We have no direct links with the Ministry of Defence, neither are we aligned to any political organisation. For a variety of good reasons names and personal details are not published on the site.”

      An independent voice that sees Scotland as very expendable.

      77 Brigade socialmedia warfare division, surely, Dr Jim.

    115. schrodingers cat says:

      Thepnr says:
      Last night and not for the first time I lost my rag on Wings.

      it happens 🙂

    116. carjamtic says:

      Kev @ 4:50

      I know….we see them,the BBC,the MSM,using their classic deflection methods,in the case Jim,we see them….

      Deflection from the real stories they should be reporting,investigating…

      The report on the Scarlet River of Iraq…

      The compilation of The Manifests of Aliens by the city of London institutions in ‘that more civilised of lands’….

      The increasing fear people have,of all things the postman(for multiple reasons,the failures of the hidden hand)….

      Surely if there’s one thing worse than being a Red/Blue Tory,it must be,….to be a Tory Fantoccini,working in the media….always stroking the veiled lie,always looking for an opportunity to deflect,sad desperate,bastards,that they are and if this is all they have,then’s it’s game over for them,let’s hope so.

      Nearly there pal,it’s close….

    117. mike cassidy says:

      Bill 5.42

      Nana didn’t say that.

      She just drew our attention to an article on a website that said it.

      A mysterious website of unknown origin which clearly thinks most Scots are both stupid and expendable.

      Hey, just another happy day on Wingsoverscotland!

    118. Stoker says:

      Thepnr wrote @ 5:32pm:
      “Last night and not for the first time I lost my rag on Wings.Not a good example to set and I apologise for the language used to get a point across.”

      Is this you losing your rag?

      Thepnr wrote over on ‘Off topic’
      “Fed up of people posting about violence or UDI may be the route to Independence. I believe they are wrong, please tell me I’m right”

      ffs, Get a grip, man! You’ve come out with worse and yes, you’re right! I personally don’t see any need for apologies. Man, are they putting something in the watter these days or is the heat getting to us all? 🙂

    119. louis.b.argyll says:

      Yes, it would be nice,
      to be told by international courts,
      that we had our nation stolen from us.

      They MUST define THE UK ‘constitution’ before brexit.

      Our First Minister’s foot in the door
      may be wee..

      ..but the hinges will come off the door before she budges.

    120. scotspine says:

      Re Sillars, Corbyn, 77th Brigade, MI5, GCHQ etc.

      At the risk of sounding like Im wearing a tin foil hat, The agencies named above are tasked with protecting the State. Thats just what they will do.

      Westminsters and their Unionist mouthpiece’s arguments are crumbling, so the next line of defence for the State will be these agencies. They play dirty.

      I mentioned Corbyn, because someone obviously suspects dirty tricks with regards his supporters online and perhaps the Security Services involvement. Whether that is the case I dont know.

      Regards Sillars. He has frequently criticised the Security Services and warned about them. Too much I reckon……Especially given his ill advised comnents to destabilise the Yes movement and continued shit stirring throughout the EU referendum campaign.

      Undoubtedly, we know from recent history that Security Services get involved covertly in civil campaigns. Whether that be The Miners Strikes, Animal rights activists etc.

      The Independence Movement is no different.

      They will be on this forum and they will be making mischief, make no mistake.

    121. Dr Jim says:

      @Mike Cassidy

      77th Brigade Behavioural Analysis which is my area but not military experience in that direct sense I was more criminal bad boys stuff

      If this site is monitored at all it’s more likely GCHQ but not for what we say just for how many we are is more important to the government

      The military lot are looking for much badder boys than any of us lot on a public site they want the terror types

    122. Kevin Evans says:

      @carjamtic

      Yes here’s hoping we’re close to victory as I can’t do another 19th sept 2014 without loosing the rag once and for all.

      It so heartbreaking to watch the young bairns loosing out again and again. The vunrable getting stood on more and more and like me even the luckier that have a job and income slowly moving towards uncertainty and instability with wages being suppressed and basic costs of food,shelter and services rising higher than people’s income.

      I keep telling myself as someone lucky enough to have a job and security who seen the light long ago for “yes” the less confident in my position who supported “no” will be starting to see the light now too as there monthly pay struggles to stretch out.

      I remember the old woman in Aberdeen when asked “why are YOU voting yes” with shock from the interviewer turning round and simply saying “when I look out to sea I see oil rigs, when I look inland I see food banks”. For me that was it all in a nut shell. Injustice, the wealthy keeping there tight grip on there profits supported by Westminster corruption and back handers. Shocking

    123. Stoker says:

      Further to my post at 5:54pm, addressed to ‘Thepnr’, eh, um, right, i’ve just seen what you are getting at, further up on this thread. Em! Well! Ho Hum! At least you’ve got the gonads to apologise but you’re still correct in your belief. Violence begets violence and it never discriminates. It’s wrong, period.

    124. Bob Mack says:

      I think Theresa May gave the game away by wanting Corbyn to resign.Why would she do that? Allegedly, he is to her advantage and future electoral success,but she and other Tories want him out.

      Perhaps the answer is that the sham of democracy is crumbling and poses a threat to the old way of doing things. The Establishment could not have that at any cost, especially from an old Socialist, who is stirring up too much discomfort.
      Don’t go for walks in woods Jeremy.

    125. Thepnr says:

      @Stoker

      I apologised for the language used not the point I wanted to make.

    126. Stoker says:

      I mean absolutely no disrespect to the victims of this tragedy:</b)

      BOY! Good job those Trident subs are keeping the world safe, eh!
      http://archive.is/GjZrS

    127. Socrates MacSporran says:

      The BBC network news has, this week, being showing reports from around England, in which their reporters have been seeking the views of “Leave” voters.

      I am struck by the stupidity of many of those of our Southern neighbours to whom the BBC has spoken.

      Take tonight for instance, Devonians, hoping for the possible restoration of one of the railway lines shut down by Beeching; farmers hoping for a continuation of their subsidies – oblivious, in both instances to the fact, they have more chance of seeing the changes they want, by staying in Europe, than by continuing to put their trust in Westminster’s promises, which were broken so-often in the past.

      Then you have a Romanian immigrant, working in Devon for ten years, paying his taxes, doing a dirty job which many might find beneath them, and concerned about what will happen to him.

      What a mess.

    128. Stoker says:

      My previous post at 6:32pm should have read:
      “I mean absolutely no disrespect to the victims of this tragedy:”
      “Good job those Trident subs are keeping the world safe, eh!”
      http://archive.is/GjZrS

    129. Valerie says:

      @Bill

      Nana just posted the link. The piece sets out various potential alternative sites, and the perceived obstacles, but given the political bias in the article, it’s quite likely bullshit, to further undermine our aspirations.

      C’mon jocks, you are so.good at hosting WMDs, and besides if England took them on, they are awfully near populations. You can’t expect THEM to take the risk.

      How do we know channels can’t be dredged for subs? Or why are the population near Devonport more valuable than the immediate population of Rhu, Helensburgh?

      And if it can’t be relocated? Tough shit. Decommission and make a huge contribution to world peace, as well as removing this bullseye from our back.

      One huge piece of crap in the article mentions Georgia, USA, where the subs go for servicing. Allegedly, even if it were agreed, it would breach the non proliferation treaty.

      WTF?

      But, a small island out with the EU, upgrading to the next generation of nuclear subs, does not breach?

      It’s surely a plant by 77th brigade.

    130. Valerie says:

      @scotspine

      Dont think you have tinfoil apparel. It’s being realistic, and aware. There are a lot of strange accounts appearing on Twitter, bell bent on fighting. I have a few exchanges and block them.

      I have no patience this time around, and I won’t provide ammunition. I swear on here occasionally, but rarely on Twitter, and never AT someone.

      I’m sure we are all happy to help genuine people seeking info or direction to places for info, they are not the problem, it’s the nasty, sneering, same old tropes, that are suspect.

      I personally think some pithy, well made points on unionist journalists threads are of value, as well as sharing good info etc.

      That’s why I’m on Twitter. I also follow a few SNP, good to hear their comments, good to feed them your comments and support.

    131. Nana says:

      @AnTeallach, I thought that link would raise the blood pressure. I should have put a warning like ‘place valuables and the family pet out of reach’

      @Macart
      Self inflicted Macart, I had a severe case of ‘never put off till tomorrow etc’ and did a whole load of weeding yesterday. You know what its like, start out slowly thinking “I’ll just do a wee bit”
      Ach I will never learn!

    132. Dan Huil says:

      So, after serial denials by Westminster britnats that Saudi Arabia has ever used british weapons to kill Yemen civilians it now transpires that Westminster britnats deliberately misled parliament and public.

      Westminster did a blatant u-turn in the last hours of government issuing a statement which clearly contradicts their originl denials. Westminster tried to hide the statement under the usual end-of-parliamentary-term guff. It has been found out.

      Once again britnat hypocrisy and deceit is exposed. Scotland must end this contaminating union with England.

    133. Ian Brotherhood says:

      I really wish we could – in a very high-profile way – nail the the truth regarding Scotland’s ‘constitution’.

      At one extreme we have compromised shameless fuds like Mundell claiming that Scotland was absorbed, as if by ‘The Blob’, into a Greater England. On t’other we have historians confidently citing the Declaration of Arbroath as proof that Scottish ‘sovereignty’ lies with the people, not the Crown.

      It can’t be both. The ‘sovereignty’ of a nation should not be a matter of opinion.

      While doubts/confusion exist, potential votes for indy go a-begging because, as we well know to our cost, the unenlightened will stick with ‘the de’il they ken’, even if it means living in a high-rise subsisting on baked beans.

      We have to apply our minds to this in new, different ways, like this man here:

      James Kelman on Self Determination (2013):

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq3Yyq1uRFo

    134. Nana says:

      @Valerie

      Talking of strange accounts appearing on twitter I wonder who might be behind some of those which are vilifying Corbyn. Mmmm

      http://www.thedrum.com/news/2013/12/11/email-leak-lifts-lid-gillard-s-spin-chief

      Like you I have no patience this time around.

    135. heedtracker says:

      Kevrage strikes back, still too small, poor, old,

      https://archive.is/MVaS1

      Good to see he’s dropped his “fiscal transfer” gibberish though. Loads of graphs Project Fear style but this one line says it all about planet toryboy world

      “Those who contribute pay more in taxes than they receive in public spending; those who benefit don’t.”

      Wealthy tax payers dont get value for their tax money but basically Kev’s jumped on that George Kevaran thing in the Herald. Next step in kevrage tory socio economics, mass offshore tax dodging. It’s that UKOKtory ethical.

    136. mike cassidy says:

      Dan Hull 7.35

      If this report of the ‘u turn’ is accurate

      http://archive.is/m5PJQ

      they are simply claiming they put the ‘not’ in the wrong place.

      ie we originally said we had checked and found nothing bad had happened

      when we meant to say we hadn’t checked to see whether anything bad had happened

      Not that much of a u turn –

      because it still enables them to deny knowledge of the ‘bad’ that happened.

    137. ScottieDog says:

      @ heedtracker
      “Those who contribute pay more in taxes than they receive in public spending; those who benefit don’t.”

      Which completely ignores the huge bailout of the very bankers who pay the higher PAYE levels.
      He tells half the story.

    138. Thepnr says:

      Something to ponder.

      Wings Over Scotland is something like the third highest rated by numbers blog in the UK. That means that is by miles it’s the highest rated read blog in Scotland.

      For that reason alone journalists pay attention to it as does the TV broadcasters and so too does the government.

      If they didn’t they would be neglecting their duty to uphold the “State”. Every article published by the Rev is read and every comment too. Should I be worried?

      I think not, real freedom of speech should be number one in the new Scottish Constitution.

    139. Sinky says:

      Thepnr says:
      22 July, 2016 at 8:20 pm
      Something to ponder.

      Wings Over Scotland is something like the third highest rated by numbers blog in the UK. That means that is by miles it’s the highest rated read blog in Scotland.

      So why is it never quoted in paper / political reviews by our impartial broadcasters?

    140. liz g says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 7.44
      Totally agree about getting the message out about Scotland real position with Soverenty.
      The SNP seem to be doing their bit by constantly including the phrases The Sovereign Scottish People ect,but as usual the media not only don’t pick up on it they also undermine it in lot’s of ways.
      Maybe for us it might be useful to come at it from the other end.
      By that I mean The Act of the Union.
      They are making an enormous claim about the Soverenty of a whole nation,based on that Act.
      Therefore therefore they should be able to provide powerful evidence to back it up.
      If Westminster does indeed have Soverenty over Scotland it will be in there,lets see it.

      They won’t cause they can’t and IMHO as the ones making the claim the burden of proof is theirs.
      We don’t have to keep demonstrating the Declaration Of Arbroth is still valid,they have to show that it was struck down by the Act of the Union.

    141. heedtracker says:

      ScottieDog says:
      22 July, 2016 at 8:18 pm
      @ heedtracker
      “Those who contribute pay more in taxes than they receive in public spending; those who benefit don’t.”

      Which completely ignores the huge bailout of the very bankers who pay the higher PAYE levels.
      He tells half the story

      The wealthy and then the rich that do think they don’t get enough from their taxes, like kevrage, just do not like paying tax. Which is easy to answer by telling them to look about them, at the society and culture their too high taxes actually pay for.

      Ultimately, kevrage toryboy style economics rage, vote tory, they’re the best at cutting and then spending my taxes. Fortunately we all get to decide with our vote though, no matter how hard our tory BBC led meeja tries to make us vote toryboy.

      Its pretty deep UKOK socio economics for a Friday night and toryboy’s like kevrage will always hate tax and ofcourse giving to all those bums out there, that wont vote tory:D

    142. DerekM says:

      @ Sinky

      Thats an easy one Sinky its because Wings does what no other blog does and holds the MSM to account.

      In my many years on wings i have seen them panic over articles the Rev writes,they will not give Wings publicity because Wings scares them.

      Ahh this takes me back and explains it all
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttH8BND1BzY

    143. mealer says:

      Remember Bonnie Prince Bobs epic “Jim Murphy saviour of the Union” video? I just tried to watch it on YouTube,but it is no longer available.Does anyone know why and how I might be able to watch it?

    144. Stoker says:

      IanB wrote: “I really wish we could – in a very high-profile way – nail the truth regarding Scotland’s ‘constitution’.”

      Ian, see, this is one of the things i believe we are getting wrong, as a movement. I’ll try and explain a bit clearer and if anyone thinks i’m having a go at them, well, tough, there’s nothing i can do about that other than give you all a clear warning in advance that that is not my intention. I will be merely trying to put forward a possible solution, or solutions, to what i consider to be problems which are preventing progress.

      Let me start with giving a couple of recent examples which i think are, not only hindering any suggestions and progress, but are also muddying the waters. And i believe in some cases it is being done very deliberately but this is not about finger pointing, it is hopefully about suggestions.

      This thread is supposed to be related to the BBC and the article about how we should be conducting ourselves towards others etc, but repeatedly throughout the thread there are people attempting to derail the thread with ‘O/T’ contributions. Now, i know what the rules state, but for goodness sake we will never get anywhere if we continue to disrupt the topic of any particular thread. We have a perfectly good O/T facility and i think more people should use it as such, every one of us are guilty of the O/T sin but we have to start getting wise and let threads develop discussions on that threads article.

      Discussing works of fiction such as ‘Outlander’ or historical matters such as’Sovereignty’ etc on a thread concerned partly with our No1 enemy (BBC) is never going to help gain us independence. Neither will asking for help on ‘techno’ matters etc. It disrupts the flow of the articles topic discussion, chases people away and narrows the chances of someone contributing a possible eureka moment, not to mention strengthening all our knowledge on whatever the articles subject may be.

      We’ve even had, on this thread, people promoting a dud commercial petition which will get nowhere and others promoting a click-bait Nicola Sturgeon poll in The Torygraph ffs! None of these will ever help our cause any. In fact, if anything, they harm it because both The Torygraph and 38-Degrees don’t exactly have our interests at heart.

      Meanwhile, as all this idle disruption is taking place some very good ideas/suggestions and posts related to the BBC etc are all being missed/overlooked or whatever and are failing to gain any support, backing or momentum which is a great shame and prevents any possible progress being made.

      Now that what seems like the moaning part is out of the way i’m going to make a brew and then return with a suggestion to float by you all and gather further thoughts and opinions on it. If people think it will be workable, successful, worth it or any hidden problems that someone might see etc etc etc. Just testing the waters really and throwing an idea out among my fellow peasants for constructive critical scrutiny or support etc. 🙂

    145. cirsium says:

      @Socrates MacSporran, 6.33

      Here is an alternative explanation for the “Leave” vote – Professor Mark Blyth on the 80%-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lD474zXIzc

    146. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Stoker –

      I hear ye mister.

      Hands up – guilty.

      Not easy to sustain intense discussion of a solitary topic over the course of two days/600+ comments, and some positive suggestions have emerged which are directly relevant to the topic.

      The self-policing regarding O/T material seems to work pretty well overall, otherwise WOS wouldn’t be as popular as it is.

      Anyway, looking forward to hearing what you’ve got up your sleeve…

      😉

    147. Graf Midgehunter says:

      @ Stoker

      As much as I enjoy your posts (as well as many other posters..!), could you please stick to the English language grammar.

      “It’s wrong, period.”

      At the risk of being pedantic, do we need to use “period” when full stop IMHO is correct. Americanism?

      Were you a mate of John Wayne? 😉

      (By the way I’m not perfect either..)

    148. Ken500 says:

      ‘Keverage’ doesn’t pay taxes according to his accounts. Doesn’t even file accounts on time. A punishable offence. That’s why he is a Tory. Can’t count and can’t read a balance sheet. Others have to pay taxes so he can benefit. HMRC not fit for purpose. Tax evasion. Those who have the most tax evade. UK tax Laws are not enforced by the wealthiest tax evaders, Westminster/Unionists and their associates. That’s why they are in politics. The vulnerable are sanctioned and starved to death.

    149. Lochside says:

      Ian B ands others please note:

      ‘The Supreme Court also determines “devolution issues” (as defined by the Scotland Act 1998, the Northern Ireland Act 1998 and the Government of Wales Act 2006). These are legal proceedings about the powers of the three devolved administrations—the Northern Ireland Executive and Northern Ireland Assembly, the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament, and the Welsh Government and the National Assembly for Wales. Devolution issues were previously heard by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council and ‘…

      The Supreme Court does not have powers over Scottish CRIMINAL law. So there is the evidence, that Scottish Legal integrity and therefore sovereignty has been divided and suborned in exchange for our ‘Devolved ‘ Scottish goverment’s limited judicial and executive powers. In addition to Blair hobbling both de facto and de jure Scots sovereignty he took 6000 square miles of Scottish waters as well.

      I complained years back about the total lack of reaction at this subordination of Scots Law by England..particularly by Scottish lawyers. One who is an acquaintance told me that it’ wasn’t significant’….

      It appears that we have no constitutional lawyers either contributing or ‘lurking’, but it’s time that the Act of Union…now a torn and stained Article of faith amongst some is taken out by our government at the highest level and scrutinised as to whether it actually means anything anymore.

    150. liz g says:

      While pondering what Thepnr said,it occurred to me that people in the RUK might be reading.
      So about to go really OT.
      It’s not just Scot’s that are constantly being mislead by the Soverenty claims of Westminster.
      Infact we are more fortunate in that we have The Declaration of Arbroth.
      Westminster asserts it is Sovereign and claims that the Constution it operates is defined by habit and repute.
      They have for over a century now Habitually used the framework outlined by AC Diecy.
      So it follows that “Westminster finds this model reputable” would also be a fair statement.
      Reece Mogg in particular takes every opportunity to assert in parliament Diecy’s take on Soverenty is the go to model.

      EXCEPT
      They never get to the bit where Diecy himself tells them that Soverenty can only be held and maintained if they are careful not to go to far.
      Absolute Soverenty is only possible in theory,in practice parliament cannot do what it wants….. mainly because of torches & pitchfork’s…….
      So if the English (mainly) were to pay attention to the Constution they actually have they would find that they too are actually Sovereign.

    151. DerekM says:

      @ Stoker

      lol you and i are old wingers Stoker and have been through the mill,we know not to link to the MSM direct or to trust certain petition companies.

      All you can do mate is keep banging the drum,though a list of untrustworthy gits would probably come in handy so others know not to use them.

      Speaking of dodgy gits here is Jock`s take on the BBC

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcHq5U_ZdiY

    152. louis.b.argyll says:

      What kind of brew? Btw.

    153. Another Union Dividend says:

      No doubt very O/T, but watching BBC TV reporting Scotland this evening – before going out for a nice meal- I was once again struck by the fact that most of the people in charge of our public bodies / universities / football bodies etc (including the most persistent vociferous anti Indy/SNP letter writers) are from England (i.e. Messrs Redfern and Howells not forgetting Kevin the pet food salesman).

      Now I know it is not politically correct to raise this issue, and my father whom I love dearly is English so I do hope no one here suggests racism, but it is an issue I feel we need to think about if we are to gain independence.

      Is it that, thanks to our education system, indigenous Scots lack the self confidence to promote their abilities or do those in control of these institutions prefer their countrymen in a self perpetuating hierarchy?

      How do we encourage Scots to become more assertive in the public arena?

    154. Capella says:

      @Stoker
      I think you miss the point about Outlander and sovereignty. The BBC is a medium for reflecting our culture back to us. Our sovereignty is part of our heritage.

      But what we get is another culture beamed out at us. An impression is created and reinforced that we have no culture. Young people grow up ignorant of their heritage but very well versed in someone else’s. Our writers and dramatists are starved of opportunity to create meaningful tales which resonate with us. That is very much on topic IMO.

    155. heedtracker says:

      One of the great UKOK tax dodgers has to be Lord Ashcroft, made up to toryboy Lord like say the ever ghastly Flipper, resides in Belize to dodge all and any UKOK tax.

      Ashcroft got his toryboy Lordship reward for donatorising several untaxed million to the tory party, didn’t get his automatic tory minster slot at the captains table, told the world that ex PM Cammers likes sex with dead pigs.

      UKOK tax dodging is endemic. As an ex rancid The Graun reader, I used to swallow their “Guardian’s a trust with no Murdochian owner and isn’t that lovely.” But that trust shyste was just another sneaky toryboy tax dodge, for decades too.

      Why are these lying bastards lying to us now, should be laser projected onto Pacific Quay for starters.

    156. louis.b.argyll says:

      Good point, but the ‘RUK’ will soon stand for nothing.

      A better, more accurate name for the remnant ‘nations’ of the British Isles could be..

      The Home Counties Empire.

    157. Bob Mack says:

      The Treaty of Union would not qualify under a devolution issue surely ? It is a Constitutional arrangement between two nations. I fail to see why one Nation involved in the arrangement would have exclusive sway over the outcome.
      The only court I can envisage with the neutrality to make such a decision would be the European Court. Not that I expect it to get that far.

    158. Lochside says:

      @ Stoker…agree and plead guilty. As you will know, the BBC are in my mind the biggest challenge to us in the next REF. but I admit to getting derailed with the ‘Sovereignty’ issue over which I get frustrated as most of the stuff is assertion not evidence.
      Apologies, once again.

    159. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi mealer.

      “Jim Murphy saviour of the Union” can be found at:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afRE3RwLwaE

      ———————————————-

      Hi Stoker.

      “Oh what a tangled thread we weave,
      than first we set out to conceive.”

      8=)

    160. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Onnyhoo…

      Pages are usually ‘active’ for around 24 hours and that’s when there are a couple of fresh posts by Rev Stu daily.

      The longer a page is active, due to no new page to attract contributors, comments are gonna become more O/T, as people respond to something someone has mentioned as an aside.

      I believe the ‘silly season’ has come a month early this year, hence Rev Stu filling his virtual bin with multitudes of virtual screwed up bits of paper, as events progress as he’s trying to put a piece together.

    161. heedtracker says:

      Now I know it is not politically correct to raise this issue, and my father whom I love dearly is English so I do hope no one here suggests racism, but it is an issue I feel we need to think about if we are to gain independence.

      There’s no such thing as the English race so you cant be racist. The issue of the majority of top jobs held by English people comes down to the fact that our private school system works hard to produce the social structure we have in Scotland.

      Almost all private schools in the UK are English, funnelling private school children into Oxbridge etc. One of the great lies doing the UKOK rounds, is that Oxbridge or the 20 English uni’s are doing much better at allowing more entrants from poor families than Scotland. This maybe true but its only because there’s been a huge increase in the number of English uni’s and its them what are taking up poor students numbers. Its definitely not Oxbridge, no matter how hard the Britnats in Scotland lie about it.

      Coupled with that, there’s the UKOK honours system and that’s not there for pretty ornament. Most top public sector job holders will all have previous Queens honours on their CV, the majority are English, private school, top uni and that’s what its all about in teamGB.

      It probably explains why likes of BBC horrendous Eleanor Bradford got a top job at Aberdeen lately, its the self preservation society.

    162. I think we need “Wottalotashite” leaflets that hits hard any of the more obvious rubbish the media is now pedalling.
      It has to be in those terms before if we want them to be read.

      SNP can’t do it but we could all put such stuff out.
      A “Scottish Truth Commission” or something similar could be put together.

      We could target enemy media. It would be easy to reduce the infantile Daily Express for instance to ridicule and derision. Fairly easy to establish that only idiots believe the shite in it so that anybody buying it is laughed at.
      Its circulation is already in freefall and I suspect hat and the Daily Mail are kept going by English immigration into Scotland

    163. Stoker says:

      Graf Midgehunter wrote:

      As much as I enjoy your posts (as well as many other posters..!), could you please stick to the English language grammar.At the risk of being pedantic, do we need to use “period” when full stop IMHO is correct. Americanism? Were you a mate of John Wayne?

      Naw! Sorry, i meant no. Never liked the guy and well before my time. Will do my best with the language but i’m more Hamilton grammar than English grammar. 🙂
      _____

      DerekM wrote: lol you and i are old wingers Stoker…

      HAW YOU! Speak furr yersel auld yin!
      psst, jist incase GM’ clockin me ah better pit it right…

      My dear fellow, one may feel old but do leave me out of it. 🙂
      psst, is the Midgehunter watching?
      _____

      Aye, Ian, was only using this thread as an example but i’m going to need a little longer with my suggestions/ideas, somethings just come up, but when i do i’ll post them in O/T at some point tonight. Better go and attend to this, back soon!

    164. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Not sure if this may keep everyone happy – not ‘off-topic’ because it’s an example of what BBC’s QT used to be like when discussing Scottish affairs, but also addresses the same constitutional stuff we’re still wrestling with. Plus ca change, eh?

      Almost a quarter-century old, but will look familiar to readers who remember QT before Dimbleby was installed.

      Peter Sissons chairing ‘lively’ discussion: Alex Salmond, Alan Beith, John Smith and Michael Heseltine, in London, 1992 –

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gHVokKt82I

    165. Sinky says:

      heedtracker says: 22 July, 2016 at 10:08 pm

      The myth of Scotland’s “poorer educational opportunities was ably exposed here by Professor John robertson

      http://newsnet.scot/archive/selective-media-influence-scottish-confidence-independence/

      “Scotland, for example, has the smallest number of children living in poverty among the constituent nations of the UK, the lowest prevalence of low pay and far more young people from deprived areas going on to higher education.’

    166. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Stoker:

      🙂 🙂 🙂

      Am off to bed, you’ll all be runnin about the place like free range hens for the next couple of hours. 😉

      Ta Ta

    167. Ken500 says:

      Scotland has an SNP Gov. That is why is has less children in poverty (still too many) No ‘bedroom tax’ – £100Million benefit cuts alleviated. More nursery places = more women working – less poverty. More appenticeships = skilled workers + higher wages. Skilled workers get higher wages. Life long learning. Student support – now more students getting a full loan. Less student fees = less debt, Higher education = better jobs.

      Unfortunately the English education system means more tax evaders buying a1st class Oxford degree and ruining the world economy. So they and their associates can continue tax evading.

      The best thing a British Gov could do is cut Defence spending (£40 Billion a year) and give aid and support to help rebuild Iraq and Syria to stop mass migration from the Middle East. Instead of stealing their assets and Oil. They are still at it. Supporting Apartheid States and absolute, despot monarchies.

    168. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Dave McEwan Hill Like your style ( wotahlottoshite) leaflets .Tell it as it is.

      we change of speiling, lotto,s ah con tae.

    169. carjamtic says:

      IanB @ 7:44

      I enjoyed that Kelman video 🙂

      I view,WoS as a safe haven,for political refugee’s,people although physically still living in Scotland are not of it,if you know what I mean.

      Yes,we split hairs on certain things,would we have it any other way ?

      We all have a lot in common,we know,it needs changing and on so many levels…..although we have never met (and for me,personally,that applies to 99% of the posters on wings) I have been made welcome.

      I enjoy reading the revs posts and the BTL commentary,thanks again for the Kelman link.

      And if that all sounds a bit sooky,sooky….here’s a,get it right fukcing up you,for balance.

      ;-j

    170. Ken500 says:

      ‘Lord Cooper 1953’, judgement upheld Scotland’s people sovereignty under Scots Law. Google it. The King, the Nobles, the Church and the people. The four ‘estates’ equal rights. EU rights hold the right to self determination. The reason people in Scotland can have a Referendum. If a political Party puts in in a Manifesto and the majority vote for it.

      Under the terms of the Act of Union Scotland was guaranteed it’s own legal system, (Protestant/Reformed) Church (eduction was Church based – so education system) and shared Protestant monarch. Scotland has to treated equally. Forever. It could only be broken by not being upheld or on agreement between representatives of both parties/Nations.

      The terms of the Act of Union are on the Internet. The question of the terms of the Act of Union being broken by Scotland not being treated ‘equally’. Was it illegal for Thatcher to secretly take all the Oil revenues and spend it in London. Plymouth, Devonport etc have higher employment. Lower unemployment levels 4%. Keeping the McCrone Report secret was not being treated equally. Keeping Trident in Faslane is it being treated equally. They majority in Scotland do not want it retained.

      Trying to take Scotland out of the EU when a majority voted to stay is not being treated equally. The majority wanted to Remain.

    171. liz g says:

      @Stoker
      Have to agree with what Cappella @ 9.49 said,I thought that the Outlander/Soverenty comments were developing the conversation about the article,in this instance.

      Can I also say that while I take you’re point about getting distracted from the issue sometimes,and especially when it is our main obtstical as the topic,a big part of what makes Wing’s different is the other stuff you pick up while reading and responding.

      One example that comes to mind is Nana Smith’s link’s,I would hate it if we had to stick so strictly to the actual topic we didn’t get them.
      Also just jumping in to get an answer to something (which I have done many times) because the person most likely to know is posting is also something I wouldn’t like to see go

    172. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @carjamtic –

      🙂

      Looks like Kelman, with his latest novel and film adaptation, may finally be getting a pay-day. No-one deserves it more.

      I appreciate the GIRFUY – we all need a bit of that from time to time, but it’s meaningless when delivered by tiresome trolls…

      Hoots!

      🙂

    173. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If anyone needs a reminder of how the BTUKOKers monstered the very idea of Scottish independence, please have a swatch at this surprisingly neglected wee piece from STV, featuring George Robertson (still getting used to his new wallies) in fine fighting mode:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KQcVNoAHlo

    174. mike cassidy says:

      Well its late on a Friday –

      so lets have a little fun sticking to the topic of bbc bias.

      Have a read at this written just after the EU referendum by someone with whom probably none of us have anything in common.

      Oh, and the writer couldn’t stick to the topic either!

      Enjoy! Sort of!

      http://archive.is/sjv4Z

    175. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood Thanks for that QT link ,also watched the Brillo piece & the Metamorphosising of the rUK that been quoted for to long .

      There is no UK once Scotland is Independent Brillo’s Wales & Ireland/England pish as the rump UK as we all know Wales/ Ireland arent kingdoms.

      Lets correct the usage of the rUK to what it should be nUK.

    176. mike cassidy says:

      re my 11.54

      and completely OT

      and with the same sense of fun given he may actually have one or two things in common with us

      how about his assessment of Raging Ruth and the Scottish tories

      http://archive.is/U233k

    177. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Er, just in case it hasn’t been posted already in this thread…

      Nick Robinson/Alex Salmond…

      Aye, THAT one:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_XhTALHQzI

    178. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. George Robertson. Makes some valid points, though I would suggest his world view is somewhat mechanistic and instrumental in nature. Wonder what Heidegger would think?

      Here’s a more pleasant trumpet…. Nice.

      Dizzy Gillespie – One Note Samba
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTWjxy0n_is

      Sorry Rev. 😉

    179. I prefer “former” ie fUK

    180. yesindyref2 says:

      @Heed
      Thanks for the defence link. Clicked on another article by the same author, saying how battery powered drones wouldn’t be powerful enough to make the oceans visible, and then this quote about Vanguard “Fitted with world beating sonar, the system is so sensitive they can hear vessels over 50 miles away.”

      But a couple of years ago Astute was on exercises with the Yanks off the Gulf of Mexico, and they were impressed with the way Astute could pick up targets 100 miles way.

      So Vanguard’s “world-beating radar” is beaten by the radar on another UK boat – the Astute.

    181. yesindyref2 says:

      @Heed
      From that T26 article: “MPs had heard claims the project to build eight Type 26 frigates on the Clyde had been delayed due to the Ministry of Defence’s attempts to save money. It is understood the five Type 31 frigates are unaffected by this.”

      Unless things have moved on, the last status was that the Type 31 GPFF could range from anything from an OPV to a T26 lite, including off the shelf designs suitably adapted.

      So if the T31 was to be based at all on a T26, clearly it too would be affected.

      More alarming, and I’ve seen this before, is Dunne’s “assembled on the Clyde”. Taking that in conjunction with a possible off the shelf design, it could be a possibility that the hull will be built elsewhere and towed to the Clyde, or even fitted with propulsion and driven here! Hence “assembled”.

      I wouldn’t trust the MOD an inch, and I suspect BaE are in the same boat.

    182. yesindyref2 says:

      @an
      Best answer to the Royal Navy article was in the heat of the Referendum campaign July 2013 when the Defence Secretary Phil Hammond was quoted in the times:

      Trident nuclear submarines will have to remain in Scotland for at least a decade after independence, Philip Hammond disclosed yesterday.

      Removing the British nuclear deterrent from the Clyde would be a hugely complex and expensive process, the Defence Secretary said.

      http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/article3806648.ece

      Which implies it COULD be done in 10 years.

    183. yesindyref2 says:

      Don’t mind me, talk of defence always gets me going, makes a change from pointing out the structural credibility deficit of anyone who refers to the onshore defict as a fiscal transfer! So, a better article from savethenavy, one I endorse apart from never mentioning the Clyde in all of it:

      http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/some-immediate-steps-that-would-support-uk-plc-and-restore-rn-strength/

      Seems to me though that there is already a move to disposses Scotland’s place in the RN which is a bit like throwing toys out of the pram, sulking, having tantrums and generally being a bit daft.

    184. liz Gr says:

      Yesindyref2@ 1.37
      Any word on disarming them and getting the Neuks themselves out of Scotland.
      Sorry but everything I care about on this planet is in the blast zone of an accident with that thing.

    185. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2
      Any word on how long it will take to disarm?
      Everything I care about is in the blast zone of these things.

    186. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g
      Personally I think the answer to that question is 0, as they’re not armed in storage – only when the warhead is married to the missile, and loaded on the next duty boat. But I’ve seen other figures of 48 hours.

      As for moving the whole thing, RUSI – Malcom Chalmers no less, one of the most critical of iScotland’s defence potential and proposals, says it could be done for around £3 billion, and could have been complete by 2028, a date which he picked as much for convenience, as that was the out of service date for Vanguard being replaced by Successor. Chalmers is a good guy by the way, but very UK-centric. I think it gives him some blinkers looking at Scotland’s needs and capabilities. A common fault!

      https://rusi.org/sites/default/files/201408_op_relocation_relocation_relocation.pdf

      Francis Rusa had more radical ideas, he reckoned it could be done in 2 years, though it would be probably impossible to actually prepare a boat for its CASD role. Had a quick look but couldn’t quickly find his paper or report on that. Too tired to think of the appropriate keywords! “Francis Tusa burghfield nuclear licence warhead aldermaston” something like that. He proposed both Barrow and Milford Haven in different contexts.

    187. yesindyref2 says:

      @Heed
      Had a quick look at Kevin Hague’s latest and he does use “fiscal transfer” in the phrase he tried to justify to me “effective fiscal transfer”, which is in itself an own goal, nevermind! Kind of like saying “effective flying brick”. His problem is that he can’t even admit to himself he’s ever wrong, so doesn’t go back and correct previous articles because he’s sure they’re right. Instead he builds on them, which means the more he builds on them, the shakier the whole thing gets. There was an article he did around the time of the Smith Commission and I laughed, laughed, laughed. He’s built on his house of cards ever since.

    188. liz g says:

      Yesindyref2
      Thank you for you’re time and effort for the information re my pet hate …Trident..

    189. Bill says:

      Trident

      A wee story for you:

      Circa 1990’s, during a time Gurkhas were being made redundant.

      The Gurkhas their own camp at Garelochead training camp with its own gate and when the MoD issued redundancy papers on them. These fearsome British soldiers simply shut the gate. Nobody went near the place for a month, no SAS, SBS, MoD Police, Royal Marines or any other unit from Faslane. (We had commanchio unit too!).

      They were allowed to stay a few more years in the end. I understand they’re gone now.

      Point of the story is that in the event of independence being declared, taken or via referendum the MoD will simply close the North and South Gates. End of story. What are you going to do?

      In that case Trident will remain till a new Tracy Island is built to accommodate the boats and weapon handling unit (currently at Coulport).

      The SG will charge them “rent” till they leave, best guess are around 15-20 Yrs of construction. Billions of pounds, no local objections, no opposition in parliament and continuity of the process unobtructed by NATO et al.

      As for re-homing them in Georgia thats totally laughable.

      Please don’t round on me like in 2013 over this sensitive issue, last time I was even accused of being a Loyalist No Voter or something.

    190. Effijy says:

      WoS, you are an incredible bunch!

      This petition against Blatant Bias & Corruption at BBC
      has now gone through the 89,500 mark.

      By spreading the word a little further, we will soon have
      80,000 Scots registered have their propaganda programme exposed at a Public Enquiry.

      Thank You and Well Done!

      https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-into-bbc-bias-regards-scottish-independence-referendum

    191. Effijy says:

      Just picked up this survey from Business for Scotland.

      There more participants ranking the Whopping Lies that Westminster called a Vow, the better.

      Could be interesting if our Star Contributors, (Especially the Rev) posted their own scoring preferences?

      https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/survey-taken/?sm=PjKK_2Fz9g_2FIebHLQLTNGrk6Ji9RnCjTwmcuqgzk4D6nta176ShnmOicqS9EPt02WAp5GFGF76TEHoUBs3FyRHcQ_3D_3D

    192. Ken500 says:

      Trident will be gone quickly. It is. Illegal to base (nuclear) weapons secretly in a country without permission. They were gone from Greenham Common in 1992. Paying the US for WMD is no longer an option. Westminster Unionists are crooks most of them should be in jail. The Tories committed electoral fraud to win the election. They over spent in 29 constituencies and won in 25. Their majority is 12. If they had not committed electoral fraud they would not have won the election. The SNP would have held the balance of power and most of this mess would have never happened. If Labour got their act together. However unlikely. Cameron should be in prison. He lied in the HoC about his income.

      There are delays at the Channel because of French border checks. The Tories are destroying the world economy.

    193. starlaw says:

      Bill says re trident
      An independent Scotland could simply close the road. Or any other access.

    194. Auld Snody says:

      BBC Scotland is like an appendix; a vestigial organ , everyone one knows it is there but not why it is there, mainly useless but when it goes wrong you will know about it.
      The cure is to remove from the body.
      Now who has the scalpel!!!

    195. Ruby says:

      Stoker says:
      22 July, 2016 at 6:41 pm

      My previous post at 6:32pm should have read:
      “I mean absolutely no disrespect to the victims of this tragedy:”
      “Good job those Trident subs are keeping the world safe, eh!”
      http://archive.is/GjZrS

      Ruby replies

      Tut! Tut! Tut!

      You are ‘off topic’ Stoker.

    196. gus1940 says:

      Dave McEwan Hill at 12.28

      How about ‘Little Britain’.

    197. Ruby says:

      Stoker says:

      Discussing works of fiction such as ‘Outlander’ or historical matters such as’Sovereignty’ etc on a thread concerned partly with our No1 enemy (BBC) is never going to help gain us independence.

      Ruby replies

      You seem to be suggesting that this thread has been flooded with comments about ‘Outlander’ and that discussing ‘Outlander’ is off topic.

      I don’t see many comments about ‘Outlander’ apart from the ones I made. I’ve taken your criticism personally.

      I am pretty guilty of making ‘off topic’ posts pretty much like most people posting on Wings.

      In the case of ‘Outlander’ however that is 100% on topic. The BBC failing to broadcast ‘Outlander’ while happy to broadcast ‘The White Queen’ by Philippa Gregory does show in my opinion BBC bias.

      Nobody will probably read the above comment because by this time everyone will have left this thread and moved onto a new thread which might suggest posters have had enough of discussing BBC bias. They may well have had enough about 500 comments ago hence the ‘off topic’ posts. There is a limit to what can be said & done about BBC bias.

    198. Ruby says:

      Nana says:
      23 July, 2016 at 8:45 am

      Hope it is safe to go off topic

      Ruby replies

      Go for it Nana! Live dangerously! 🙂

      What’s the worst that could happen?

      I don’t think you’ll get banned EVER but you might get a ‘finger wagging’ lecture from some very strict poster who can’t cope with ‘off topic’ posts especially ones about ‘Outlander’ and sovereignty!

    199. Stoker says:

      Capella wrote: “@Stoker..I think you miss the point about Outlander and sovereignty. The BBC is a medium for reflecting our culture back to us. Our sovereignty is part of our heritage.”

      No, i very much get the points and i agree with your constructive response and fully understand where you’re coming from and its relevance. The one thing though that i would change about your ‘BBC’ line above – i would add the words: The BBC is *supposed to be*. Anyway, not all the ‘Outlander’ related comments where as informative, some were more concerned about where we could see it and as i said, my reference to ‘Outlander’ was only one small example. My main point to the whole post was that nothing ever seems to come of important thread topics, ie: how to counter the problems detailed in the threads articles. Anyway, thanks for your usual constructive response as usual Capella, much appreciated.
      _____

      Lochside (9:55pm)
      Absolutely no apologies necessary my friend! I’m just trying to raise awareness, and hopefully solutions, to several problems that exist and repeatedly keep resurfacing time and time again. Here’s an idea, and i hope Mr.Peffers is reading, instead of having these topics such as ‘sovereignty’ repeatedly peppering other threads, why not write a very informative and factual article on the subject and submit it to the Rev for consideration. Then we can all study and learn about that topic until our hearts are content and anytime after that, if someone seeks to raise the topic again we automatically link them to Roberts article and all the related btl posts, job done! If we don’t do something about this problem we will forever be going round in circles and progressing nowhere. This idea could also apply to all other topics and those of us who have a particular bee in our bonnets about certain issues. It could be a solution!
      _____

      Hi Brian (9:56pm): You wrote:
      “Oh what a tangled thread we weave, than first we set out to conceive.

      lol, Very clever, Brian, i like it!
      🙂

    200. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ruby
      In that posting, Stoker had a go at basically ALL of us, who wander off topic, including e.g. Robert Peffers with Sovereignty, and by implication, me then with defence and Trident, so don’t take it personally.

      It seems he has an idea which perhaps we will see. Meantime, the Rev’s own guideline is “Don’t go off topic in the first few postings”. Which seems a fair guideline. But threads always go off topic, and in my opinion, since a lot of people probably only read the current thread, they need to or we don’t get interesting news, articles, views.

    201. yesindyref2 says:

      @Stoker
      It’s a view point certainly, but the thing is hopefully there are new readers, new lurkers, and there’s millions of articles too many to read so they’re likely mostly to only read the current thread of comments. And then Robert posts his Sovereignty bipartite, and those lurkers learn something they didn’t know.

    202. Stoker says:

      Graf Midgehunter (10:47 pm)

      CLUCK CLUCK CLUCK
      🙂
      _____

      liz g (11:29 pm)

      liz, please see my response to ‘Capella’ above.
      Plus, i’m as big a fan of Nana’s links as anyone else and most other contributed links, whether O/T or not. My point wasn’t about getting that stopped. Whether we like it or not, it is off-putting for a lot of people to see unrelated links peppering threads, especially when we have a perfectly good O/T facility which, IMO, is very much underused for whatever reasons. One more point, liz, i know your reference to Nana’s link was just one example off the top of your head but that was very naughty of you to bring oor auld Nana into this so go stand in the corner for the duration – good to see Nana didn’t take it personally and responded with her usual witty style. 🙂
      _____

      Ruby, i wasn’t even going to bother responding to your replies but now that i’ve replied to the sensible, constructive and/or humorous contributions i will reply to you, once i see what Chris’ toon contribution is today and the resulting btl comments. Would be rude of me not to acknowledge your waffle!
      🙂

    203. Ruby says:

      Stoker says:

      Ruby, i wasn’t even going to bother responding to your replies but now that i’ve replied to the sensible, constructive and/or humorous contributions i will reply to you, once i see what Chris’ toon contribution is today and the resulting btl comments. Would be rude of me not to acknowledge your waffle!
      🙂

      Ruby replies

      YCBS!

      I can’t believe you are worried about being rude!

    204. Ruby says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      23 July, 2016 at 11:18 am

      @Ruby
      In that posting, Stoker had a go at basically ALL of us, who wander off topic, including e.g. Robert Peffers with Sovereignty, and by implication, me then with defence and Trident, so don’t take it personally.

      Ruby replies

      Will you cease to post off topic from now on or will you just ignore Stoker or anyone else who sets themselves up as site moderator?

      What do you think Robert Peffers will do? Will he do as requested or just cease to post on Wings.

    205. Stoker says:

      yesindyref2
      I’ve covered all the points in your 2 previous posts, you probably didn’t see them due to cross-posting etc, particularly my suggestion on how to make best use of Mr.Peffers’ (and others) depth of knowledge and life experience. He and his ilk are not going to be around forever so it strikes me as crucial that we make the most of them while we still have them. Don’t you think it would be a wise move to get, for example, Roberts factual knowledge preserved in one article (EG; Sovereignty) rather than have it spread all over the shop? And as i said, future enquiries etc can be linked directly to it and all associated btl contributions.
      _____

      Ruby,
      YCBS? New one on me, care to elaborate? I’ll keep this as brief as possible. Try reading my original post properly (@ 9:14pm), particularly the part which states very clearly the following, and as Judge Rinder is fond of saying: “I’ll just write it down in big black bold…”

      You wrote: I’ve taken your criticism personally.

      Despite me writing: “if anyone thinks i’m having a go at them, well, tough, there’s nothing i can do about that other than give you all a clear warning in advance that that is not my intention.”

      It is a shame, despite being warned in advance, that you chose to let your sensitivity take you down a path of victimhood and personalising your responses to my attempts to raise awareness and seek ideas/solutions to recurring problematic themes. Especially when you started off with humour in your first post when you wrote:

      “Tut! Tut! Tut! You are ‘off topic’ Stoker.”

      Even though in my original post (@9:14pm) i stated the following:

      “every one of us are guilty of the O/T sin..”

      Try reading other peoples posts properly and stop taking everything so personally, it’s not always about you you know! As a matter of fact when writing the original post i had another Winger in mind, it certainly wasn’t you, but as i also clearly stated in my original post (@9:14pm):

      “this is not about finger pointing,”

      I hope i’ve made it clear enough to you that i was not getting at you or any other individual, i was attempting to raise awareness to recurring issues and to hopefully encourage ideas, suggestions or answers to dealing with these issues. But i guess that old saying comes into play,eh!
      “You can lead a horse to water..etc etc!

    206. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Subsamples of <500 people are meaningless.

    207. Stoker says:

      Ruby wrote (12:12pm)
      “Will you cease to post off topic from now on or will you just ignore Stoker or anyone else who sets themselves up as site moderator?”

      GTF you pathetic clown! You’re not worth the effort!

    208. Ruby says:

      Stoker says:
      23 July, 2016 at 1:07 pm

      GTF you pathetic clown! You’re not worth the effort!

      Ruby replies

      Will do. Good-bye

    209. Ruby says:

      Stoker says:
      23 July, 2016 at 1:04 pm

      Ruby,
      YCBS? New one on me, care to elaborate?

      Ruby replies

      Sorry no can do as I’ve decided to GTF.

    210. K1 says:

      Give it a rest Ruby, you made your point that you took it personally, when it wasn’t personal to you and then you got a bit nasty because of that…nothing new there.

    211. K1 says:

      It means ‘you cannot be serious’ Stoker.

    212. Stoker says:

      Cheers, K1, i’m off to add a couple of jokes onto Chris’ thread!
      😉

    213. Jack Murphy says:

      mealer said at 9:14pm last night:
      “Remember Bonnie Prince Bobs epic “Jim Murphy saviour of the Union” video? I just tried to watch it on YouTube,but it is no longer available.Does anyone know why and how I might be able to watch it?”

      The Saviour of the Union film is still there.
      I hope someone’s made a copy—–it’s a brilliant classic.
      Should be entered for an award. 🙂

      http://tinyurl.com/o3jwd2h

    214. yesindyref2 says:

      Meanwhile, in a galaxy far far away, the empire lays its secret deadly plans for a (BBC) planet-eating moon attack station but hey, guess what, it’s secretly been in operation since 1928.

    215. yesindyref2 says:

      Tut tut, been spending too much time having a laugh at average unionist blots. We’re Independentists and believe in getting our FACTS STRAIGHT.

      The BBC was founded on October 18, 1922, in London, where it’s largely remained ever since.

    216. brian lucey says:

      Scotland and Ireland are not that different, economically speaking. If Ireland can survive and thrive , one might wonder could Scotland not also do similar?
      https://brianmlucey.wordpress.com/2016/07/22/ireland-and-scotland-some-high-level-economic-comparisons/

    217. liz g says:

      Stoker @ 11.40
      If you’re still here.
      My main point was that the things you seem to be objecting to are the very things that for me what makes Wing’s unique.
      Every comment being only pro or anti the preceding aritical would make it like just reading one of the MSM comment sections.
      As for what is achieved again we disagree,I think readers having been exposed to such a variety of information, points of view and links to other subjects are better equipped to discuss most topics when out and about.
      Now as for referencing Scottish TV shows…..well…
      I am about to get even naughtier and recall an American one.
      NOBODY PUTS LIZZIE IN A CORNER….

    218. Chic McGregor says:

      Some chiels are dingers and that’s a fact.

    219. Maureen says:

      Fantastic. A great piece that makes it understandable at a base level why the bbc behave in the way they do.

      A fundamental commercial bias is much more easily communicated to folk who denied that there was any bias or discrimination coming from the bbc. Indeed to talk about the bbc bias was more likely to turn folk in the opposite direction thinking that we just didn’t like anyone not supporting us. I suppose we played into their hands by not looking at the financial implications.

      This article and your previous one on the first of the bbc should be shower far and wide.



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