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Wings Over Scotland


Time to draw a line

Posted on February 20, 2014 by

Let’s all agree: from now on, anyone who says “An independent Scotland would have to join the Euro!” is either deliberately lying or a dribbling slack-jawed imbecile without the faintest idea of what they’re talking about.

As such their views should be dismissed with contempt, and ideally they should be chased out of town by an angry mob with pitchforks and flaming torches. We’d say Dr Zuleeg was pretty unequivocal and definitive on the subject here.

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    83 to “Time to draw a line”

    1. Doug Daniel says:

      “I also find it very difficult to see how that would be in the interests of the Eurozone or of the member states, dragging a reluctant country into the Eurozone”

      YES, YES, YES! This times a billion. There is simply no advantage to either party by doing this, unless people think the EU’s sole purpose in life is to make rules and rigorously stick to them, regardless of the negative consequences of doing so.

      I love the way the Tory Jamie McGrigor is determined to find fault in what he says anyway. It’s always entertaining seeing a unionist battle fruitlessly to prove themselves right, even in the face of totally contradictory evidence.

    2. Desimond says:

      They way they go on about how we should fear the Eurozone is very much like the Vortex in The Adventure Game, which of course no-one wanted to go anywhere near!

    3. Stephen Brown says:

      Love it!

    4. Tony Little says:

      Indeed. This is just boring beyond belief. The trouble is the MSM esp. BBC in Scotland keep slipping it in as though by insisting that all the “facts” have equal reality. Yes an iScotland will have a commitment “in principle” to joining the Euro as a condition of membership, abut then ignores the five criteria for membership, of which the ERMII is voluntary.

      Eventually – presumably in the 16 week “honesty” period, this will come out clear and unambiguously. After THAT exposure, the BBC’s final tatters of reputation will disintegrate. Quite why they persist in this charade is beyond me. Can’t they see where the end game is leading them?

    5. Fiona says:

      Isn’t it nice to hear evidence presented calmly and rationally? Compare and contrast with Lamont’s performance at FMQ. It is embarrassing

    6. Fiona says:

      @Tony Little

      They believe we are goldfish. They have some reasons for that belief, unfortunately

    7. HandandShrimp says:

      The entry requirements to get a clear bill of health require that inflation, debt to GDP and annual deficit percentage hit key targets. The UK would not be permitted to join because debt is nearly double the limit allowed and the deficit is in the red zone too. If Scotland does agree to take a share of the debt our debt to GDP will be about 80%. We would need to get that down to below 50% and keep it there. It would take years. The EU would not be demanding we join the euro they would be saying “not yet”

      Formal Euro membership is quite simply not an immediate option. If we join the EU and if we meet the key targets and stick to them for a couple of years then we could in the medium term join the Euro. 5 to 10 years down the line. We could adopt the Euro like Montenegro but that is a different matter.

      That said the average Mail and HYS reader seems to think they are all economics experts despite clearly not having the sense they were born with.

    8. Proud Cybernat says:

      And his mouth (McGrigor’s) was shut.

    9. Andrew Morton says:

      OT but worth a mention.

      Something I’ve never given much thought to was the date of the referendum, or rather, why 18 September was chosen. Then while my wife and I were discussing our upcoming trip to California in September I had a blinding revelation. What had hit me was the thought that families with children go away during the school holidays and this drives the price up. The result of this is that older people holiday in September as it’s cheaper and they don’t have a bunch of screaming kids around the place.

      So, well to do over fifties tend to holiday abroad during September when it’s still hot, holidays are cheaper and there are no kids around. Now, what is the demographic which is least likely to vote Yes? Well to do, older voters (often Tory voting).

      We are applying for proxy votes in the referendum as postal votes are issued ten days before the poll and we shall be away over the whole period. It’s all a bit of a pain in the neck and if I didn’t feel so strongly about it I probably wouldn’t bother. What is the likelihood that these September holidaymakers will go to the trouble?

      This could be worth a 1% shift in the result. I knew Alex and Nicola were smart, but this is genius!

    10. Jimbo says:

      If it’s a Unionist politician making the claim then they’re deliberately lying.

    11. Keef says:

      Was the heading a homage to Ruthie 🙂

    12. EphemeralDeception says:

      There were several ‘No’ myths exposed during the sessions in the Scottish parliament yesterday.

      Swinney was on great form. He reminded everyone that although Scotland has not had full borrowing powers it has still had to manage all its finances within a fixed budget or decreasing budgets. Major projects have been on time and on budget for successive years. Scotland will be a new State but not new for managing our finances. We will also have a better revenue to debt ratio than rUK.

      The Euro topic is another that exposes the No campaign pushing Fear over Fact and this should be reminded for other fearmongering subjects.

    13. mato21 says:

      Afternoon

    14. chicmac says:

      Graham Avery was unequivocal on the matter as well.

    15. Macandroid says:

      @ Fiona
      Thought JoLa was going to have an aneurism!

    16. chicmac says:

      OT Latest Poll puts YES:No at 45:55 (discounting DKs)

      http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/02/20/uk-scotland-independence-poll-idUKBREA1J00I20140220

      Don’t bother looking on Daily Mail Scotland website.

    17. Mosstrooper says:

      Yes but, no but, yes, but Mr Zulegg your not saying what I want to hear. Could you please obfuscate.

    18. jenni says:

      refresh

    19. heedtracker says:

      It is difficult. Unionists I know are now down to saying over and over that YES is all lies, oil’s running out, out of EU, no money and so on. I’ve never really seen this kind of attitude in Scottish politics before. BetterTogetherBBC and co cant seem to get the fact that their daily Project Fear FUD campaign for Scotland is a far more powerful YES vote builder than the actual facts seem to be.

    20. Churm Rincewind says:

      An excellent and useful post.

      @ Tony Little: In passing, could you direct me to instances where the BBC has said that an independent Scotland would have to join the Euro? I only ask because I’m tempted to take up the issue with them as a concerned member of the public…

    21. Indy_Scot says:

      I am no expert, but given his intelligence and clear understanding of simple facts, I believe this man may not be British.

    22. heedtracker says:

      Reverend, did you know you cant see any comments on this site unless you actually post something? Sometimes you might get a couple but WoS main page shows comment numbers but there are no comments visible. I use chrome and Firefox with no firewall to get in the way with either pc or ipad.

    23. Mosstrooper says:

      My oh my

    24. Gillie says:

      Jamie McGrigor comes across like a right nob.

    25. laukat says:

      O/T – expect a Youguv poll shortly as I’ve just taken one

      Interesting part was a question that said in the event of a no vote do you agree the following is likely to happen
      Lots of extra powers (i.e. devo max)
      Some extra powers but some way short of devo max
      Stay the same
      Not sure

      I did make a comment at the end to highlight that there was no option to say powers would be removed after a no vote and therefore was forced to pick an answer I did not believe.

      Also no question on who I voted for previously just who I would vote for so not sure how the poll weighting will fit with previous polls.

    26. HandandShrimp says:

      Heedtracker

      Type the words page refresh

      This will go into moderation and get junked but it will refresh the page

      The site is still under cyber attack and is cached to protect the content.

    27. Tony Little says:

      Ground control to Major idiot

    28. mogabee says:

      Is that a red line by any chance?

      Don’t you just love it when a plan comes together!

    29. Greannach says:

      We I see Jamie McGrigor representing the Highlands and Islands, I wonder who the hell voted for the likes of him on the regional list. Nobody, I know, I can assure you!

    30. Tony Little says:

      @Churm

      they were legion in the early stages of the referendum campaign, but I noted in the last week or so that the occasional “but not yet” is being mentioned. I did not make special note of every occasion, but am sure a quick google will bring up examples.

    31. Alt Clut says:

      It’s been said but a little repetition can help to drive things home. Zuleeg explained it simply and certainly. Every one of us must drive it home on the campaign trail. The Euro is relevant only as a longer term possibility IF we want it. End of of another fear myth !

    32. Midgehunter says:

      We will now probably witness a continuing rapid increase of dribbling slack-jawed imbeciles.
      Commonly known as politicians and journalists.

    33. Mary Bruce says:

      Excellent, another Wings post bookmarked to be shared far and wide over the coming months. I used to direct people to the EU page that says ERM2 is voluntary but this is much better.

      It really is appalling that our MSM does everything it can to stop this kind of information reaching the general public. This is exactly the kind of information that one would expect to find in a responsible democratic press, but, of course, we in Scotland have it kept from us. Our media is a complete and utter disgrace.

      Keep up the good work, Rev, you are doing a fine job. I hope one day you get some kind of pulitzer type award to recognise your contribution to journalism and getting the truth out there.

    34. MochaChoca says:

      Could it be that swaths of NO voters really want to be YES voters but have just been waiting for an excuse to switch before ‘going public’?

      I’m sure most wouldn’t actually have considered Osborn’s intervention as ‘bullying’ until it was suggested thus.

      I suspect all announcements from either side will now be treated by some as a reason to switch, either because it adds weight to the YES argument or because it makes the NO side look increasingly desperate/negative/anti-Scottish.

      We are (virtually) all YES voters, some just haven’t yet arrived at the justification.

    35. Murray McCallum says:

      I’m really glad that’s the Euro myth sorted until the next time its front page UK news and being debated by imbeciles on BBC HYS.

    36. Harry Scott says:

      The European Exchange Rate Mechanism applies to currencies, not countries. It seems bleeding obvious that if Scotland uses the pound, either within a monetary union or outside of one, it would be impossible to join the ERM at any time, after all it’s not exclusively our currency, so how could we possibly enter it into such a scheme? Unless they were to somehow force the RUK back into the ERM, we would be exempt by default.

    37. gordoz says:

      O/T but good read relating to trade union movement in Scotland. Could workers be supporting YES an advanced rate ?

      http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/8763-the-tide-is-turning-in-the-trade-union-ranks

    38. Mary Bruce says:

      Incidentally, it is only a few weeks since William Hague said Scotland would have to join the Euro. Imagine that, a Foreign Secretary, ex-party leader, who is so ignorant and ill-informed that he has no idea of the rules of joining the Euro. Either that or he is a bare-faced liar… I know which one I think he is.

      “The foreign secretary said Scotland would be obliged to join the Euro single currency” BBC, 17 January 2014

    39. chicmac says:

      @laukat

      Did the indy question come before the other ‘questions’?

      BTW there was another TNS poll on the Reuter’s link, but that was compiled just before Osborne’s Love (the smell of nae plan) bombing raid.

    40. Elizabeth says:

      Re Jamie MacGrigor – a couple of years ago he and his family were at a watersports/cafe in Lochearhead. – a new business and difficult due to weather etc.I heard him asking for a discount!! I could hardly believe his cheek.

    41. bunter says:

      Nothing at all on the BBC at the moment regards the implosion of the Barroso scare and heehaw about todays poll results.

      Indy coverage by omission.

    42. Dcanmore says:

      O/T … okay I’ve been on several pro-indy Facebook pages today and all of them are showing problems. Tried some non-indy Facebook pages they’re okay.

      thoughts please?

    43. Peter Macbeastie says:

      I have thought of emailing a link of Joining the Euro for Idiots to every possible newspaper I could find, but the simple fact is they’d ignore it anyway and continue to print the same bollocks about the EU and the Euro as they always have done.

      Funny how no one seems to remember all those stories a few years back about how the UK had fallen out of the Exchange Rate Mechanism, or that they don’t know the significance of this to the officially sanctioned use of the Euro. The media insists ad nauseum that we could be ‘forced’ into using the Euro which, just to make my own thoughts clear, I don’t actually have a problem with anyway but we cannot be forced into the Eurozone when we don’t meet their rigid and distinctly inflexible regulations on joining it. We can’t voluntarily join it either, without satisfying those same regulations.

      Anyone tried pointing this simple to grasp statement of facts to the MSM and their daft wee pretend journalists? I’m old enough to remember proper investigative journalists; they’re the ones that everyone is scared of from the leaders of the country downwards. I really loved the moment on a BBC documentary when a clip from the late Seventies had a government researcher recoil in shock when asked about a specific MoD project and utter the words ‘where did you hear that name?’

      No media organisation on these islands has that level of investigative zeal any more, and they are worse for it.

    44. bunter says:

      Might be an idea to do an article of the censored BBC pro indy stories and damaging NO ones, together with links, that we may create mischief across social media asking folk ”do you remember these stories on the BBC”?

      Would be a big job though LOL

    45. Macart says:

      My but I’ve had a fun day posting posting these links. Y’know even in the pishest of weather you can bring a ray or two of sunshine. 🙂

      Nice Rev.

    46. Leswil says:

      Well try as he may, the old Tory did not get what he wanted.
      What was confirmed is that so far the SG are right about this and many other things.
      What a difference when you have people in charge who actually care about Scotland and it’s people.

    47. Midgehunter says:

      Somebody asked who Zuleeg is, so I had a look.

      He’s German but I would say very Scottish minded.

      Current
      Chief Executive at European Policy Centre, Brussels
      Chief Economist at EPC

      Was
      Associate Director at DTZ
      associate director at dtz
      Economic Adviser at Scottish Executive

      Education
      Edinburgh University
      University of Glasgow
      University of St. Andrews

    48. scottish_skier says:

      refresh

    49. bunter says:

      Story in The Herald just appeared rebutting Barroso’s scare by two top EU politicos. Not yet on the front page.

      If the BBC doesn’t pick this up, I will go mental!

    50. Proud Cybernat says:

      Cybernattery rooles.

    51. Philip says:

      Off topic but related…..

      Have you seen this?

    52. Patrician says:

      @heedtracker

      The only time I see issues is when I use chrome or firefox, I don’t get the non appearing comments using Opera on W7 or Linux, IE also seems to handle comments better. YMMV.

      On the technical side I think webkit is the problem here, I think it is the core of Chrome and Firefox. I use the old version of Opera before they moved to webkit.

    53. Clootie says:

      Well he won’t be back. The unionists don’t like honest europeans!

      I do feel EU officials need to speak out on this issue. The unionists can spin it their way because they won’t ask the question and they can use biased individuals to give them sound bites.

      The EU needs to speak up or at least control the loud mouths in Camerons pocket.

    54. edulis says:

      I detected a bit of open mouth bewilderment there from Jamie. He was sure he was going to get the answer that Scotland would have to join the Euro and he had just had his feet cawed from under him- great spectacle.

    55. Linda's Back says:

      Problem is that TV reporters are either lazy or ignorant or deliberately dancing to the UK Establishment’s tune. Which is it?

    56. The Man in the Jar says:

      I posted this on an earlier thread (just before everyone moved on) but seeing how we are in the mood for busting unionist myths. There is a good article on Wee Ginger Dug regarding Barroso`s bullshit.

      “Barroso gets a Basque bollocking”

      http://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2014/02/20/barroso-gets-a-basque-bollocking/

    57. Proud Cybernat says:

      Overheard Sarwar talking to a couple of party officials in a pub in Glasgow’s south side last night. Couldn’t properly hear the conversation but Johann (presumably JoLa) seemed to be the talk of his wee steamie–and something about South Queensferry. Thoughts anyone?

      (We Cybernats are everywhere).

    58. Rubberbelly says:

      Always good to see unionists confounded but I wonder how many people actually feel strongly enough about the EU to make it particularly relevant. The EU along with, and often conflated with, currency are apparently the topics that unionists want to keep front and center almost certainly not because they think these topics resonate with Scots but to keep the headlines controlled.

      By the way I have no trouble accessing the site or reading comments and I have no idea if any part of my system or software makes this so.

    59. Flower of Scotland says:

      Refresh

    60. Colin says:

      I read all of the stories on here and I read all of the negative comments and stories on the “newspaper” and other media sites.
      Why are we not fighting fire with fire, where are all of the positive stories, the arguments for voting yes. Why aren’t our politicians and vote Yes leaders on the news every night and in the papers every day?

      Why do we always seem to be on our back foot defending ourselves against another downright lie or innuendo?
      A No vote in September terrifies me because I know what Westminster will do to Scotland if it happens, they will punish us for generations to come and I don’t want that for my children or my grandchildren.
      I found this site purely by chance, why doesn’t everyone in Scotland know about it? Isn’t it time to take the fight to the Vote No campaign?

    61. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Just saw Lamont in action at FMQs.

      Wow.

      You have to hand it to her – it’s great entertainment. It’s like watching an angry drunk haranguing an invisible enemy.

      Alistair Darling and Johann Lamont locked in a room with nothing but a litre bottle of gin and a life-sized inflatable Alex Salmond. People would pay to see that.

    62. Another Union Dividend says:

      Hootsman running with nasty cybernats comments on Bowie but still no mention of Bowie’s well recorded flirtation with fascism and fascist imagery in the 1970s.

      http://www.muhistory.com/?p=304

      Imagine the outcry in media if someone with this background backed a Yes Vote. Their previous political allegiances would be dragged out ad nuseum.

      Pictures of his Nazi salute and praise for Hitler would dominate the airways for days.

      http://www.muhistory.com/?p=304

      It would be headlj

    63. magnus barelegs says:

      rather a decent honest european any day over a deceitful unionist twister like mcgrigor.

    64. Richard says:

      O/t If I offered someone £50 to the charity of their choice if they could produce hard evidence using relevant treaty sections that Scotland’s place in Europe would be ‘difficult, if not impossible’ would I be mad?

    65. Peter Mirtitsch says:

      Interesting how Tory boy keeps on going on about Scotland being a new country. That is open to debate, and he hasn’t addressed the point where they would have to kick out five million EU members first, and also that a NEW Scotland has NO OBLIGATION to the debts of the old country, which pass on to the official successor state…

    66. Les Wilson says:

      The Man in the Jar says

      That was a great post that should be widely distributed, especially to Westminster and BT, and all the MSM ( yes I know there is little chance they would acknowledge it, never mind print it, still! )

      Hats of to The Wee Ginger dug!

    67. laukat says:

      @chicmac

      The Independence question came after a number of questions around who you would vote for in the next election, what you opinion was on issues such as immigration, the state of the economy and which powers should lie with which government

      It also asked you grade where you believed the political parties where on each issue.

    68. Appleby says:

      Why the hell is that rat representing Scotland when he’s clearly desperate to seek only weakness and negativity for us? Poisonous leaders working against us from the inside.

      Who voted for that and why?

    69. dmw42 says:

      Bye the bye, if anyone has any experience at locating plots, could you give JoLa a hand as she most definately lost one earlier.

    70. joe kane says:

      In Better Together unionist-speak what Dr Zuleeg is actually saying is that an independent Scotland will have to join the Eurozone.

      I think British news media reports, if there are any, will back me up in this definitive interpretation.

    71. kalmar says:

      I wonder if Nick Mailer is reading this!

    72. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Leave wee Jamie alone. Mr McGregor is a friendly and generous enemy who it is possible to have a sensible conversation with, likes a dram, plays the guitar and has made it plain he will stay in Scotland after a YES vote.

      The sad thing about Scottish politics is that all the abuse I have ever been subjected to has come from Labour Party supporters and members.

    73. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I wonder if Nick Mailer is reading this!”

      We may be doing a podcast. Should be fun 😀

    74. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Leave wee Jamie alone. Mr McGregor is a friendly and generous enemy who it is possible to have a sensible conversation with, likes a dram, plays the guitar and has made it plain he will stay in Scotland after a YES vote.”

      Even if you spell his name wrong? 😉

    75. Jamie Arriere says:

      Eminent pragmatism which is generally what I’ve usually heard from EU spokesmen over the years (Barroso & Spanish PMs excepted) – it really doesn’t equate to the “Brussels dictatorship” and compulsion dialogues you get from the London media.

      @Elizabeth – did someone piss in his chips?

    76. SquareHaggis says:

      Never thought I’d read myself writing this but I do believe the Evening Express have written some fairly objective articles this day.

      Well done, but will it last?

    77. chicmac says:

      @Luakat

      Thanks muchly. I thought that might be the case.

    78. muttley79 says:

      @Colin

      “Why aren’t our politicians and vote Yes leaders on the news every night and in the papers every day?”

      Why do you think? The MSM are completely biased against independence, in some cases extremely hostile and virulently opposed (just read Alan Cochrane, Kerry Gill etc). Yes simply will not get a fair crack at the whip in the MSM. That is why pro-indy websites like WoS, NNS, Bella Caledonia, NC have taken off in the last few years or so.

    79. muttley79 says:

      @Ian B

      “Alistair Darling and Johann Lamont locked in a room with nothing but a litre bottle of gin and a life-sized inflatable Alex Salmond. People would pay to see that.”

      Where is this going?… :D: 😀

    80. muttley79 says:

      @Ian B

      “Alistair Darling and Johann Lamont locked in a room with nothing but a litre bottle of gin and a life-sized inflatable Alex Salmond. People would pay to see that.”

      Where is this going?… 😀 😀 There is looks better now.

    81. Muscleguy says:

      @Fiona
      It isn’t that we are goldfish. It is more that they want us to be mushrooms: kept in the dark and fed bullshit.

    82. Rick Guthrie says:

      I go into my pragmatic mode when I answer any ante-referendum question from a No campaigner



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