Thought for the day
Posted on
September 08, 2015 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
We can’t help wondering if the Church Of England’s “Daily Prayer” this morning was chosen while looking north towards a certain Scottish Lib Dem MP in his time of trial.
If such things are your inclination, readers, pray for Alistair.
LOL…you are wicked Rev
There’s a few more than Alistair in need of some mercy now!
Let the Kirk Elder take note.
Lord, protect us from the deceit of flattering tongues and lying lips
Was I imagining things, or did I see Carmichael at the front of a self-indulgent pro-refugee “Demo” at Westminster yesterday? In whch case, why wasn’t he in court? Probably because he knows he’s going to walk. His sort generally do…
The end is nigh. How nigh? Who cares, its off to the Lords for you young chappie m’laddie. UKOK
I’ve just watched today’s first hour of the proceedings and there’s only been one guy talking. You know what? I have no idea if he’s for the prosecution or for the defence. I’m afraid that for the average punter the Scottish legal system is not looking good right now.
How did you even happen to know what the Church of England’s daily prayer was?
I KNOW ALL AND SEE ALL.
If the court absolves him, so will de’eil.
He might be off to the Lords if he gets away with it but if found guilty???
On second thoughts that would make him even more eligible.
What is this in The National? That Carmichael argues that “his personal self was unblemished by his political lie” and it was “nothing personal”? So parliamentary privilege covers the entire political activity of an MP?
That gets a lot of sanguinary characters off the hook, then. Amazing, yet a Livestream reporter at the trial seems to be hinting that it’s all over bar the verdict, maybe I misread.
Looking forward to the untangling of all this by wiser heads than mine.
“Let us praise God. Oh Lord, oooh you are so big. So absolutely huge. Gosh, we’re all really impressed down here I can tell you. Forgive us, O Lord, for this dreadful toadying and barefaced flattery. But you are so strong and, well, just so super. Fantastic. Amen.”
(Monty Python, The Meaning of Life)
Is the Scottish judicial system about to shame itself — again?
I’m not watching today’s “how to become a Q.C.” training video R-type but I’d guess the guy you are referring to is the same one who finished yesterday’s event in which case he will be the Q.C. for the prosecution.
Oh, I’ll be praying for him Stu.
But he won’t like what I’m sayin’! ;D
Or, the following, for Mr Cameron and the rest of the Tory Party at Sunday Service (Holy Communion) over the weekend:
” Do not try to combine faith in Jesus Christ, with the making of distinctions between classes of people.” (James2:1)
“..fall through their own devices.”
*smashing of iPads heard throughout the land*
“Carmichael argues that “his personal self was unblemished by his political lie” and it was “nothing personal”? ”
Is this a real life case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde?
Orkney Hearing – AGAIN A NON EVENT :
Seems the judges want to challenge all and sundry today unlike yesterday ? No clear run then ? (Fine)
Surely timing is of the essence hear in this case.
He knew he lied to his constituents, but that he would benefit only if he stated the truth (admitted to lies) after the election & result.
To admit lies before the election would have been politically harmful to himself (detriment). So by delay and deceit he knowingly benefited & cheated electorate of Orkney.
The timing was political.
Oh but that’s just UK justice & politics so all is ok.
DISGUSTING.
@ Rev “I KNOW ALL AND SEE ALL”
Honest, Rev! She told me she was 18!
I KNOW ALL AND SEE ALL.
Then you’re one of the very few. Total UKOK media blackout on what may well be the last LibDem MP ever in their Scotland region. Nothing in Voice of the North Press and Journal as per, odd omission considering Carmicheal’s their UKOK pin up boy. Thought editorial choices for these Toryboy con artists. Even rancid old The Graun’s chuntering on about Sturgeon and Madonna progressive and liberally, for no good reason and only as those sneaky hypocrites can. The Guardian irony bone must be tingling a wee bit though, having told teamGB to ditch Crash Brown and vote LibDem 2008 was it. Vote Liddem, they’re honest and noble and liberal, not like the most unpopular Prime minister in UKOK history.
Rev. I realise the wheels of justice turn but slowly, but the proceedings of Carmichael’s court case are so utterly stodgy that the original crime is being lost in a deliberate muddying of the water. All this “Personal v’s “Political” and bringing up obscure decisions relating to Irish Nationalism is beginning to have the desired effect, namely, sheer boredom and putting off anyone who might otherwise have taken an interest in democracy & justice. Why isn’t Carmichael present?
IF the Telegraph broke the rules by implying that the SNP as a whole secretly wanted a Conservative win, which they certainly came near to doing, then it follows that by authorising the leak to them of that memo Carmichael consented to their action.
His only defence is that none of the 59 electoral results in Scotland were materially changed by his actions.
The law is fairly clear that consenting or hiring someone to break the law is also a breach. Presumably so as to avoid the kind of tawdry “a big boy did it and ran away” kind of excuses we’re seeing here.
Looking on the bright side, though, that grass I started to watch grow yesterday at the outset of these proceedings looks to have shot up by 2mm. Interesting.
Ronnie ‘A’ seems tae be affa fidgety the day, while LPW appears tae hae flechs.
Bill Mc, I believe that it’s the Westminster legal system which is being used here, despite it being held in a Scottish court.
Calum Craig, well, he is a ‘Rev’, after all!
@ walter scott
Nevertheless “the mills of God grind slowly but they grind exceeding fine”
Oh, dear. It appears that in order to play the fool on Twitter, Jill Stephenson not only changed her name, but also changed her username. She thinks she can revert whenever she wants…but now somebody else has picked up the historywoman username.
“…let them fall through their own devices…”
The two lords are being willfully obtuse are they not? Why can the woman not follow the discussion when I can?
Orri is a pishtalker
Move along now Orri, nothing to see here
I remain of the opinion that it will be very difficult to prove that Carmichael’s shenanigans had any bearing on the election result.
We have to separate fairness from distinct matters of law. Carmichael was a creep ( a fact he has effectively admitted to ) but that is not the issue. Add in the safety first approach of the establishment and it will be a miracle if the Election finds in favour of the petitioners.
And it looks like the person who now has the historywoman username on Twitter is…a Scottish independence supporter.
No, there are just aren’t enough emoticons in the world to express how funny that is…
It’s about the interpretation of the law as it currently stands is it not, rather than the wrongness of Carmichael’s behaviour?
The point was made that this is breaking new ground which is why they laboured on the political / personal point for so long – because if the petitioners can’t show ‘personal conduct & character’ then the whole case falls apart.
Everyone agrees he lied and that he was wrong to do so. So if the action fails surely what this demonstrates is that the law as it stands is not good enough in holding politicians to account, which we all kinda know anyway.
Gordoz, he lied to the other half of the Constuency, Shetland, as well as the rest of Scotland.
Auld Rock
A number of people have posted comments critical of the judicial process underway in Edinburgh. I would like to make a few points.
1. I very much hope that Carmichael is found to have breached the rules. I would take significant personal gratification from that because I find him a particularly unpleasant individual and I have only contempt for the LibDems.
2. Regardless of my personal wishes (or the personal wishes of anyone else), the judges have to apply the law as it is. The law is a creation of the UK parliament – not the Scottish judiciary. So by all means argue that the law is wrong, poor, inadequate or whatever, but do not criticise the judges for that.
3. Much has been made of the ponderously slow pace of the proceedings – but as the Rev pointed out yesterday, the judges are writing everything down. The QCs would be told by the judges to slow down if they spoke too rapidly.
4. It is not surprising that we all find it difficult to follow – the arguments are based on detailed knowledge of the law backed up by voluminous documents to which we – and observers actually in court – do not have access. It is hardly surprising that we are struggling.
5. It is right that the court examines the issues in great detail. The petition is to unseat a (on the face of it) democratically elected representative. That is a very serious matter and we are all entitled to expect that the court takes it seriously.
6. The purpose of the proceedings is to arrive at the right decision in terms of the law as it stands. The outcome may or may not please me, but the proceedings are not taking place to amuse me or even be particularly accessible to me.
Derek Bateman is well worth the read today.(link opposite)
5. It is right that the court examines the issues in great detail. The petition is to unseat a (on the face of it) democratically elected representative. That is a very serious matter and we are all entitled to expect that the court takes it seriously.
The whole debacle could be done in a day, who’s who, what happened, is there rule/breaking, verdict, penalty, done by home time. The Law is an anachronistic closed shop, waste of money and time and deliberately excludes the plebs, like me.
link to legislation.gov.uk
the part beginning
106 False statements as to candidates.
The original Telegraph article which broke the leak is very clear that they believe the SNP had a secret agenda. Which qualifies as having published a falsehood against all 59 SNP candidates.
Carmichael definitely helped in that.
So even if though this particular case is based on his own character and conduct, it doesn’t mean there’s no other ways to pursue him and his accomplices.
Is Carmichael in court today?
Bill – “I remain of the opinion that it will be very difficult to prove that Carmichael’s shenanigans had any bearing on the election result.”
But a completely parallel case was surely that of the only Labour MP, who got in after the shenanigans of the SNP candidate, up to then the firm favourite to win, were exposed. Nicola told voters to judge him accordingly, and he lost the election.
In law this may not be a factor, but in real life it seems to be how things work – in this case, it has just worked.
Amen & Amen to all that!
There just has to be a comment about that – but none that I’m ready to share yet. I expect most wingers have already arrived at much the same conclusions. Suffice to say that the C of E are founding members of the Establishment.
heedtracker at 3.03 p.m.
The whole debacle could be done in a day, who’s who, what happened, is there rule/breaking, verdict, penalty, done by home time. The Law is an anachronistic closed shop, waste of money and time and deliberately excludes the plebs, like me.
How do you know it could be done in a day? Why not half a day or a week? Some law might be anachronistic, but can you say that of legislation passed today? If you mean the legal system is anachronistic, I might in part agree with you. It is a closed shop, but so are medicine, accountancy and any profession which requires people to be qualified before allowing them to practice.
You might regard the law as a waste of money – but would you agree if the court finds against Carmichael? Is it a waste of money when the courts convict and sentence people like Alexander Pacteau?
You say you are a pleb – not a term I like. It is true that some people are excluded from benefiting from the law for economic reasons. But that is not to say that there is anything wrong with the law – that is a matter of social policy. Before the NHS, medicine was not available to many. That did not mean that medicine as a profession was in any way wrong – the problem was the lack of a social policy that allowed people to use it.
If by being excluded you mean that you cannot work in the law, then do the training, get qualified and start practicing. If you don’t do this, you are excluding yourself.
Bill
“I remain of the opinion that it will be very difficult to prove that Carmichael’s shenanigans had any bearing on the election result.”
It’s not necessary to prove that there was any bearing on the election result. It only has to be proven that that was its purpose – whether or not it was effective.
What happened to the good old days, of tarring and feathering. I’d rather watch Mr Carmichael undergo that than hours of leagalese, of why “it wisnae ma fault.”
@Rev. Stuart Campbell says: 8 September, 2015 at 11:42 am
“I KNOW ALL AND SEE ALL”
Aye! So did Gypsy Rose Lee, but she just had one, (crystal), ball.
@Bill McLean says: 8 September, 2015 at 12:14 pm:
“Is the Scottish judicial system about to shame itself — again?”
Aye! Bill, As I already posted on another thread. It isn’t just the accused MP that is on trial in the Court of Session building just now but the Justice system, the UK electoral system and the entire UK Establishment.
“Lying lips are abomination to the Lord: but they that deal truly are his delight.” Proverbs 12:22 and lets not forget about the ninth commandment, “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” Exodus 20:16. Some elder. He needs to “repent ye, and believe the gospel” Mark 1:15.
link to allaboutgod.com
Aye Bob – and creepy Scottish servants of a creepy so called system of justice! I ask again are they about to disgrace Scottish justice – again?
Rev ma forgivnees is in the black cap , I was looking for a black hanky for Court today but no luck in finding wan.
@ Ronnie fidgety is it, you’d be fidgety sittin on ah hard bench fur two days, Wie piles oan piles .Gavin (livestream) brought a cushion,so did his relief livestreamer.
@ Michiel McCabe got your messege I,ll get back to you later tonight.
Spoke to both Fiona,s/ Graham & MacInnes, they are very greatful to all for the contrabutions to the crowdfund & continued support.
Scottish Law have a chance to set a precedent in Law,lets hope they do the right thing & find Carmicheal GUILTY & as said today it leaves the path open for a criminal case to answer.
This case have wider implications now ( candidates telling untruths ) as you have heard Sth Edinburgh was mentioned & politicians in Westminster saying they voted for something when Hansard records they did,nt.
Mr Murray should take note.
Here Will, I don’t suppose you’ll be too impressed by the nifty deployment of the old ‘duality defense’ there, by Carmichael. No? Better Together just oozed monism, is that why you supported them? Cultural diversity an anathema to you? Was one of your ancestors a founder of the Fabian Society?
Here Will, I don’t suppose you’ll be too impressed by the nifty deployment of the old ‘duality defense’ there, by Carmichael. No?
Better Together just oozed monism, is that why you supported them? Cultural diversity an anathema to you? Was one of your ancestors a founder of the Fabian Society (Frank Podmore)?
Having listened to those exchanges on Court today.
The VOW should have been CHALLENGED in Law
Neil Hay should have CHALLENGED the accusations made against him ( I did say at the time A crowdfunder).
& not forgetting Murray for his Falsehoods, & thats the crux of this case, so have a little faith in Lord Mathews & Lady Paton,as one who sat through the hearing I know their Lordships were on the case, just watch/listen to their interventions.
If you had heard Mr Dunlop in summing up , 3 points ( if the Court finds Carmicheal not guilty on one, Case closed, but he,s said that yesterday.
Personal & Political I think their Lordships see through that, Carmicheal gains on both counts by his LIE. Mr Mitchell might have got lost a wee bit today,but was soon back on track,so its a wait & see.
Given what Lady Paton said at the end, there might have to be more debate.
Sorry, I thought I’d caught the first one.
heedtracker,
“The Law is an anachronistic closed shop, waste of money and time and deliberately excludes the plebs, like me.”
It is run by freemasons for freemasons, the lowest of the low.
No colony would have ever got independence if it relied on the British justice system for justice.
Only a Ghandi style defiance of the rotten to the core system will ever bring us independence.
But unlike the Indians and most other colonised people, we are wimps.
I only watched a bit of today’s hearing (recorded), but it was interesting to hear Mitchell on one point.
He was emphasising the word “and”, and from my own reading of laws for business purposes, and judges’ summations, one of the most important thing in law seems to be the Boolean Algebra of “AND” and “OR”.
If Carmichael is found against, it may well be Boolean Algebra that is his undoing.
Thanks for keeping those of us who can’t bear to watch it posted Ronnie, and thanks for being there in person to support the team…we’re all behind them and willing to put more of our money were our mooths are, should more avenues open up to pursue this further
I thought at the time that Nicola was too quick to accept this tosser’s apology. Says a lot for her and nothing for him.
Openly pro-indy stance of new @historywoman on Twitter already causing confusion among grisly unionist zoomers. I wonder just how pissed off Stephenson is.
And now Heather MacLeod has protected her Twitter account…
Well, you’ve got to laugh sometimes, haven’t you?
Ok do I have this correct, if it is a political lie then that’s ok, but if it’s a personal lie it’s not? but can I ask if a political system is constructed by liars then what good the law?
link to reason.com
This is a good link, and gets to the hub of the matter,
“Since dishonesty is inherent in electoral politics, perhaps some day disgusted voters will revolt and rein in the size and scope of government. Until that happy day, the only recourse of an appalled citizenry is to throw the current crop of scoundrels out when their lying, obfuscation, and double-dealing become too egregious.”
So I doubt our erstwhile judges will read this plea, but let him off, and hopefully the stench of his corruptions will finish this bugged Union forever!
@Andrew McLean
The Representation of the People’s Act S106 or whatever it is is about personal misconduct, not political. The political aspect is covered by Parliamentary codes of conduct as that’s political, and not for the courts to judge.
That’s why so many (anti-SNP mostly) comments against the whole idea of the petition against Carmichael are so much hot air.
Ok, but if the liar Carmichael in his position as a government minister comes across an internal government document, not only covered by the official secrets act, but international law concerning the treatment of an ambassador of another country, and leaks this to the press, is this not a criminal act?
In the past I have been privy to official secrets, have been briefed by the real intelegence services, in fact came under their control, but never in a million years would I ever consider mouthing off in public!
Unpopular as it may be, but I expect standards in public life to be higher, the splitting of the political man and the personal man, is a semantic argument, not unlike how many angels can balance on the head of a needle for a theology exercise!
Or to use another analogy, if Carmichael wants to separate two aspects of his life so intertwined with his very being, both literal and ethereal, then the judgment should be this, Seperate a pound of flesh, equal to your political body, in one cut, and be there no blood, if not then you are guilty!
I listened to a lot of yesterday’s debate and tried to differentiate between personal and political statements. ‘Confused.com!!’ The bottom lines are – the memo was a total fabrication, Carmichael knew this and still sanctioned its release, this was then denied and, then, admitted it was fallacious!! Personal attack? Political advantage? Right on both counts!? It got me wondering is it possible this legislation was historically written to protect politicians from just such a situation like this one. In other words ‘I’m a politician – I can lie and misinform – I’m a politician and I’m all right Jock!!
Pray for him??
Too late was the maidens cry!
As the young nun said to the Mother Superior when asked how she was getting on with her ecclesiastical studies, she replied,”I’m just past Redemption, heading for Purgatory on the road to hell!”
Just can’t see the Crown and it’s puppets coming down against him; pretty irrelevant really, as most of us know that the law is for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of fools.
Clearly in need of powerful laxatives this fellow just can not find one to do the job – Rumour has it that his nightly mutterings return incessantly to ‘Out, damn’d spot! out, I say!…. What need we fear who knows it, when none can call our pow’r to accompt?’