This won’t take very long
Because in the 124-page Labour manifesto released yesterday, these 115 words are the entire amount of text devoted to Scotland:
(That’s not a fake screenshot, btw. The giant Union Jack is really there.)
So let’s take a very quick stroll through them.
“Labour opposes a second Scottish independence referendum. It is unwanted and unnecessary, and we will campaign tirelessly to ensure Scotland remains part of the UK. Independence would lead to turbo-charged austerity for Scottish families.”
Translation: our leader’s previous statement was a lie.
“The Scottish Parliament will receive a huge funding increase from our policies, and massive numbers of Scots will benefit from our plans in areas reserved to Westminster.”
FREE MONEY (amount TBC)! Isn’t it great being in the UK?
“We will establish a Scottish Investment Bank, with £20 billion of funds available to local projects and Scotland’s small businesses, creating work and stimulating the economy.”
Um, we don’t know how to break this to you, guys, but… there’s already a Scottish Investment Bank. It’s part of Scottish Enterprise, which is Scotland’s main economic development body. Job done! Congratulations!
“We will set up an inquiry into blacklisting and will urge the Scottish Government to hold an inquiry into the actions of Scottish police during the miners’ strike.”
This is weird. Firstly, you don’t need to win a UK election if you just want to urge the Scottish Government to do something that’s within its devolved area of competence. You can urge them to do it right now, so what’s it doing in a manifesto?
Secondly, the miners’ strike ended in 1985. It had already been over for 12 years when Labour came to power at Westminster, and they stayed in power for 13 years at Westminster and eight years in Scotland – spanning FIVE general elections – without doing anything about it. Why is it suddenly the SNP’s problem?
And that’s it, folks. That’s all you get, perhaps because Labour wants to minimise the embarrassment when Scottish Labour release their own manifesto next week which will flatly contradict the UK one in several areas (such as Trident* and income tax rises), leaving Labour voters in Scotland literally not knowing what they’re voting for.
We’ll see you then for some fun.
.
*EDIT 11.42am: Surprise twist!
Just getting in line with their Tory chums in marginalising Scotland.
I thought this was a rise when you put it on Twitter. Even worse that it is real.
Publish far and wide even more embarrassing then what Tories are doing.
Biggest concern is that folk are taken in by the lies.
Does their commitment to retaining North Sea oil jobs thrown in to alongside renewable and nuclear count as being Scottish?
I’m never going to feel more embarrassed voting than when I vote Labour in June, but unfortunately one has to do something to stop the Tories.
All these Butcher’s Aprons are making me puke. That’s even before I read the so-called manifesto.
The more things change the more they stay the same. Incompetent then, incompetent now.
What sort of job is it that enables you to sit all day creating lies and deceptive statements which you knowingly then distribute as fact? Post truth politics indeed.
If only the public memory was as short as a Labour politicians.
Erm….. there isn’t a Labour Party any longer.
There’s ‘New Labour’ Tony Blair’s bastard progeny which was castrated by removal of Clause 4.
New Labour has no function; no identity in the political spectrum. Except for a nostalgic few who would like to put the clock back.
First-time voter ‘Declan from Glasgow’ on Kaye Adams show?
link to twitter.com
They got a big flag in though so that shows their commitment to something
You will be Bitish You will be British
They’ll be sending the Daleks against us next
BliS are as morally bankrupt as they are bereft of imagination and ambition for their homeland. No surprise, as their primary role is to run interferance for the Westminster Establishment, in order to retain Scottish wealth and maintain the status quo. They are sub-Tories.
@BLiS
What about my Right to Development?
link to sustainabledevelopment.un.org
link to un.org
Although I do sympathise with the miners in the strike in 1984/5 which was 32 years ago, how relevant would that be to the young voter who may have seen Thatcher on a documentary? The Police then were under the control of Westminster as Holyrood didn’t exist and all the papers/documents would be under lock and key of the various National Archives with long release dates knowing Westminster with many of the major participant now deceased.
Kezia on GMS still not good with figures. On Federalism “Scotland has population of six million and England 40 million”.
Time SNP kept challenging the £15 billion deficit stat beloved by the Unionists.
They got one thing right:
” This is about where power and sovereignty lies”
You can feel the commitment to pooling and sharing, betterthigitherness, for the many, not the few etc., fair overflowing oot them 115 words.
Fillin’ up, so ah ahm.
Ah bit ma faither and his faither before him voted liebor,and his faither before him and his…………Sorry i must have nodded off there.
What a load of shite.
Time to flush on the 8th of June.
Kezia’s mention of the relative sizes of the populations of England and Scotland is obviously a reference to Labour’s campaign slogan,
For the Many not the Few.
Yay! We in Wales get 122 words – 7 more than Scotland. (But …)
WALES
We are proud of the achievements of the Welsh Labour government and its record of delivery.
– Platitudinous guff.
In government, we will work in partnership to stand up for the people of Wales and protect public services.
– In partnership with whom? Again, warm words but very little in the way of anything concrete.
We need long-term reform of how the UK allocates public expenditure to ensure that it reflects the needs of different parts of our country and that no nation or region of the UK is unfairly disadvantaged.
– What is this doing here? Could just as equally apply to the other devolved nations or under a heading Barnet Formula: UK-wide policy.
We will build on the Development Bank of Wales using more than £10 billion from Labour’s new National Investment Bank.
– That’s nice. But what does it actually mean? “Build on” … does this mean the Development Bank of Wales in going to get a facelift or an extension? Rather expensive at £10 billion. Or is it to pay the banker-employees inside?
We will bring forward legislation to make the devolution settlement more sustainable as set out by the Welsh Labour government in its Alternative Wales Bill, including the devolution of policing.
– Yadder, yadder, yadder. More piecemeal devo-lite from Westminster. Whoopy-doo! We Welshies well remember your Secretary of State in Government (Peter (now Lord) Hain) proposing the LCO method of devolution which was supposed to fix devolution “for a generation”. (Funny how that quote is becoming a Westminster mantra or cliche now, isn’t it?) And yet we’ve had subsequent Wales Acts from Westminster (by Tory and Labour Governments) each offering a few more crumbs to the serfs of Cymru. About time for independence, methinks.
What should we expect next – flakes in our ice cream cornets?
And as for devolving policing: How are we expected to believe anything your Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, say about policing after that car crash interview on LBC recently when she had no idea on recruitment numbers nor cost?
In summary and in removing that general “Barnett paragraph”, Wales only gets 86 words. EIGHTY SIX words devoted to “an equal Member of the Union.” Aye, right.
To any Labour canvassers out there – come again tomorrow. I’m washing my hair just now.
There’s only one game in town: Scotand’s constitutional future, Indy, and Brexit, all intertwined.
In those few words Labour has made it’s position clear, Nae ScotRef. Well, clear this month. Next? Who knows.
And whatever happened to all the federal guff? It they were at all serious a general election manifesto is the place to make some commitments. Or how about strengthening Holyrood with powers coming back from the EU? No?
Between the lines is the reality – they are following the Tory line whereby Scotland is part of their Greater England empire and they want to keep it that way. Also, devolution is now seen as a problem for their Union and is being at best sidelined and at worst rolled back.
There is a simple Unionist message. All of
EnglandBritain isBritishEnglish, and don’t you Scots ever forget it.Richardinho. 9.47.
You say you are going to vote Labour to keep the Tories out? They are both the same. What are you talking about?
Absolutely breath taking pack of Lies and distortions
From Kez ably assisted by Radio Shortbread and their
Selected callers.
How is it polls showing 47% support for Indy ref 2,
And a democratic vote in Holyrood for Indy ref 2,
Doesn’t count according to SLab who are polling
Just 17% support????
Kez hears complaints about Indy ref 2 on the doorstep!
I m pleased with this as a the last General Election she
Was hearing that Labour would retain all 41 seats and
Add 2 more ! As you known they got one!!!
BBC Bias in full bloom for the Yooners and Losers.
Richardinho what constituency are you talking about there? Voting liebor to keep the tories out??
Effijy
Lol..Is that the same doorstep she’s aye stood standing on? Boy oh boy it’s tedious this, isn’t it?
They are also promising …again … to look into the HOL and that’s as far as this will go.
Listened to Kezia’s federalism and realised it is already here. We all send members to the Big Hoose to debate on issues affecting us. Then I assume we get told what to do.
The Rough Bounds, I’m guessing Richardinho is in England.
As i live in England i shall be voting for the greens,not that it will make any difference,but at least I’ll have a clear conscience in the knowledge that i didn’t vote for fascists.
KD on radio scotland 9.31 her Federal solution will involve a UK Peoples Constitutional Convention and it will invite people either through a RAFFLE or Ballot. I am not joking that is what she said.
She also wants more powers for Scotland despite the labour party being the party that BLOCKED most of the powers scotland wanted devolved. You fooled us once but NEVER AGAIN.
The Kezia … Kaye love in heard five callers between 9-15 and 9-50 then another 4 got squashed into the last 10 minutes Kezia will now know Scotland Does want indy 2.
Maybe the guy (Richardino) is talking about splitting The Yoon vote?
Sounds like a good thing if dedicated Yoons just keep voting Labour, rather than voting the full Blue Tory.
Whit’s the story ahin Dugdale’s refusal to be included in a photae wi Corbyn efter Labour’s manifesto presentation?
10.52am winifred,i think these lying toe rags fooled us all quite a ‘few times.
They certainly fooled the people of Maybole Ayrshire for over 50 yrs with their promises (lies),of a town bypass.
Every year the Scottish Labour vote shrinks. We are pretty close to single figures now. But still Kezia wans to rant about the SNP and independence. The strategy is a complete failure and they are now headed for complete oblivion.
Keep it up Kezia you are doing a sterling job.
Dan, she’s a bit scared of photos after Edvard Munch painted picture of her soul after joining the red tories.
I like this stuff, every time they open their silly mouths the electorate gets to see what they are really like, its just so amazing that anyone that votes for a unionist party in scotland cannot see what they are trying to do, would it not be great if every seat went to the SNP, i wonder how they would put a spin on that one
115 words versus billions of SNP bad words belching out of all UK media.
Daily Heil’s front page this morn’s a classic far right press hit on Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh this time, one of the most aggressive yet from the Heil. Although they Heil reprobates have left out their usual extreme violence on women style of get Sturgeon headlines. Filth in the British gutter press is a bit fickle, fickle filth.
Richardinho said the other day that he lives in England.
Kezia with Scottish Labour is akin to being the captain of a towed barge.
She can stand proudly at the barge tiller but she still ends up going where the tug takes her.
When HQ wants her opinion they give it to her.
…That Flag….
Amazing how self determination is branded “narrow nationalism” by Labour and the LibDems while at the same time they drape themselves in the butchers apron.
Brit Nat good / Scot Nat bad.
However little coverage is given to the narrow isolationist view of the BritNat in comparison to the outward open inclusive requirements demanded by the ScotNats.
Now eat your cereal and support a unionist party to save the union (why worry about those in need or our society when you can wave the apron)
“our leader’s previous statement was a lie.”
But the new version contains three clear lies.
That’s quite impressive really.
Hold on a sec..
Last week on Immigration, Ruthie quoted population figures and now this week its Kezia’s turn to quote population figures. Is it wee Wullies turn next week?
How many times will we hear Kezia say the phrase “For the Many not the few” before her battery runs out of juice and she goes into sleep mode before the Election.
Still, seems Jeremy Corbyn really is the new ‘JC’ according to some awe-struck folk on Twitter last night. Seems you can promise anything these days and hungry people are dying to eat it up regardless of reality.
Hurray for Jeremy Corbyn! Now unionists in Scotland have a real choice of which “Get Nicla tellt – Nae Referendums” party they can vote for. And in a first-past-the-post election, too!
Suddenly, I feel very optimistic about 8 June.
Yes let’s stick with the Union that outvotes us on every single issue we might differ from England on coz that’s Labour Kezia democracy
How many percentages is enough for the Unionists
If England voted to stick monkeys up their bums according to Kezia and chums we’d have to go along with that because that’s UKOK democracy as a Union
In other words the best fighter in the school is the boss
Or the inmates of the asylum should run it coz there’s more of them
We’re not now, nor have we ever been in a Union, a Union is something you join together on for the greater good and that’s not what’s ever happened
Scotland allowed itself to be subjugated and has been ripped off ever since and then lied to because they knew they were ripping us off
They’ve tried killing us out, they’ve tried deporting us out, they’ve tried breeding us out, they’ve tried repopulating us now they’re trying the Sectarian route there’s not much left to them now except to go back to the killing us again
Since Theresa May became Prime Minister in this new and exciting venture the Brits have got lined up for us whether we like it or not, just how many of the countries who gained their Independence from England have been on the phone desirous of rejoining this wondrous endeavour
Not a damn one!
Deficit is it, I’ll give you deficit, you owe us ya shower of
It’d fit into 6 tweets. That’s all they think of Scotland.
welsh sion,
‘ flakes in our ice cream cornets?’
More likely fakes in your wagers.
or wafers, even!
Labour! You couldn’t make it up.
Aberdeen city just voted Barney Crockett lord provost. Unionist stitch up
Yesterday Argyle & Bute now Tory + Lib/Dem the Council Admin.
Today Aberdeen is now Tory + Labour Council Admin
Funny old political world init!
Never mind Deputy Dugdale did not do her party any favours this morning.
Labour Scottish ‘twig’ party manifesto out next week, can hardly wait.
will Barney get his world travel
ler ticket back?
Why would anyone in Scotland vote Labour in this GE? If you are fanatically British and pro Union you have the Tories. If you are centre left then you have the SNP.
To some people Labour still appears to be both, however this is no longer true and they need to come to terms with that. If you are progressive then you should be supporting Indy and in this election that means the SNP. If your are conservative then there are the Tories.
The other two permutations of right wing pro Indy and left wing pro Union really have no support nor representation.
The reality of all this is the progressive vote should be going the the SNP. And how big is the non progressive vote in Scotland? No more than a quarter IMO.
The Tories campaign of talking up Hard Right Brexit London Tory-ism will begin to backfire. Labour miss every boat and are now irrelevant. I am becoming optimistic about this GE.
Labour may have reduced Scotland to a few paragraphs but the rest of their manifesto, particularly the headline items such as free tuition, are lifted straight from the SNP and are already in place in Scotland.
Therefore Labour definitely has very little if anything to offer Scotland.
Wonder what Ms Dugdale is going to do now since Labour have now adopted the SNP policies she so loves to criticise? Oh wait…no 2nd referendum. That’s it. All done in every sense.
Dugdale…howlin’ at the yoon.
Westie7,they would have been better with Davy crockett
Former SLab leader Joanne Lamont tried to tell us SLab was autonomous, and just after they stabbed her in the back, she revealed that this was not the case.
She even cited Miliband instructing her not to discuss the Tory Bedroom Tax for a year as he wasn’t sure if they were against it?
Then we had Dim Jim Murphy assuring us that this time they were really autonomous. That lasted right up until Westminster Labour quashed everything he tried to implement in SLab.
Now the Dippity Dug tries it again. She has Autonomy, but they cannot adopt the SLab members vote against renewing Trident, as Westminster said they must be for it?
I look forward to Anas Sarwar telling us that he is the new autonomous leader in 3 weeks time.
You really should qualify for a learning disability grant if you believe a word that is coming out of SLab.
Labour just don’t do truth, arithmetic, or democracy!
They’re trying to out “Orange” Ruth’s shower!
Surely to Christ there’s nobody left with half a brain who can’t now see through con-man Corbyn?
Ligger Neil’s BBC Politics show for lunch today’s special tory guest is, Lord Forsyth.
Ligger’s really knocking the living shit out of Labour’s renationalisation etc
If Hitler was around today, he’d be the Ligger’s BBC Politics special guest too.
“What do you make of this Adolf?”
“Great question Andrew…”
For some time now I have observed the bias BBC uses the same web address but changes the content and headline during the course of the day.
link to bbc.co.uk UK wage growth lags inflation for first time since mid-2014
link to bbc.co.uk UK unemployment at lowest rate in 42 years
link to bbc.co.uk
Has anyone else noticed this, am I getting it wrong, is this normal practice. Any views at all about this.
heedtracker says:
17 May, 2017 at 12:35 pm
Ligger Neil’s BBC Politics show for lunch today’s special tory guest is, Lord Forsyth.
For the balance, Ligger put my MP Callum McCaig up against tory Jo and Lord Forsyth and he was brilliant. Tory girl Jo, illiterate kids you SNP shits, Lord Forsyth, old school Thatcher boot boy, bullying SNP forcing unwanted ref2, tory revival on no to ref2.
Callum dealt it with all of them professionally and with some yoof aplomb.
No wonder tories, red and blue, detest Scottish democracy. Also no wonder, BBC Scotland gimps ram dudes like Hothersall down our throats but there is so much SNP talent around, who are also elected, unlike roasters like Hothersall…
asklair says:
17 May, 2017 at 12:53 pm
For some time now I have observed the bias BBC uses the same web address but changes the content and headline during the course of the day.”
Just heard BBC r4 Lunchtime news thing with assorted tories explaining how amazing Mayhem and Hammond are. Beeb gimp intros one of them as, “Robert Colville from Cap X, a pro free market web site”
Cap X liggers are also regulars on Ligger Neil’s vote tory BBC Politics show too. Cap X is a lot more than just a pro free market web site, as the r4 con artist sneaked out.
Apart from being a ferocious pro tory pro yoon blog, its probably getting nothing near the number of readers that Wings over Scotland does.
Yet the chances of the author of WoS being involved in a BBC r4 lunchtime news debate, with say likes Robert Colville at Cap X, are absolutely fcuking zero.
And here’s Sarah Smith from Scotland, boosting Fibdems to high UKOK heaven, for BBC r4 lunch.
That’s enough vote tory propaganda BBC style, for an hour or so
@andyH says: 17 May, 2017 at 10:56 am:
If Richardino is living in England then he must be wealthy.
Only the wealthy live in England – the rest of the Englanders only just manage to exist on the bread-line.
So Islington Labour think that having autonomous financial institutions is a good idea for Scotland. Well, so it is. Provided you have true fiscal autonomy to support such noble activities. Which only comes with independence. So maybe the folks in London are working round to that idea too. Maybe they’ll get there, oh, in another 100 years or so.
And beat the Libs into the bargain. They’ve been busy promoting “Home Rule” since 1913, but have any of you seen that one properly implemented yet…?
It seems to me that Labour have simply and pragmatically written off their Scottish votes, so what’s written in the manifesto is entirely for English consumption. Paint the Scots as scroungers who just happen to be sitting on a wealth of resources. Why should the English not want to ignore the former and steal the latter? So naturally opposition to Indy should gain a few English votes, in the same way that support, sort-of, for Brexit is probably a finely calculated position.
As for the Welsh section of flummery, the Welsh by and large still give Labour their knee-jerk vote, so don’t require serious consideration. Any old guff will do. The Nat threat is not too serious, not all Nats support Plaid, Wales voted for Brexit etc. etc. Why I wonder haven’t the Welsh woken up to the miserable future that awaits them, joined at the hip to an isolated post-Brexit England(andWales)? Assimilated into the Corb Collective??
For England it has the Union Jack, for Scotland it has Holyrood. A picture says it all.
Your UDI is the answer rubbished UDI in 2015. I agree UDI was not right then.
However, you state situations where it could be considered.
Situations that have now happened: Brexit, a referendum vote at Holyrood, WM refusing it.
Your discussion on UDI as a means of independence ( UDI IS The Answer) really needs to be reviewed. The UK itself wrote a statement to the ICJ which supported Kosovan indpendence by UDI.
The UK Govt could forever say not now to an indi-ref. A referendum does not
establish independence, even if Yes ever won. It would need WM MPs consent (just like Brexit). MPs who oppose independence. The SNP have no answer to that.
That the SNP won’t risk another indi-ref because they have settled as administrators of devolved powers and have now adopted Labour’s auld lie about stopping the Tories at WM is another matter altogether.
UDI is not the answer. Some examples of UDI where Great Britain has been concerned.
1776 United States result of UDI? War.
1919 Republic of Ireland result of UDI?. War.
1922 Egypt result of UDI? War.
1965 Rhodesia result of UDI?. Civil war.
Be careful what you wish for, at least the United States, Ireland and Egypt had the support of the majority of the people behind then when declaring UDI. Still didn’t prevent War though did it.
50% +1 that’s how Scotland becomes Independent.
Thepnr @ 15:16,
Raw unvarnished UDI would work if something like 95%+ of the people were in support of it. A situation that pertained in Norway in 1905, for example. The Norwegian Parliament in essence declared UDI and scheduled a referendum to support it, which subsequently passed with 99.95% in favour. There was some military manoevering, but no shots were fired.
Interestingly, although we do not have the luxury of such a resounding level of support for independence here, the reasons offered for the split between Norway and Sweden seem surprisingly relevant to us today:
link to en.wikipedia.org
@Robert J. Sutherland
I totally agree, 95% would do it anytime, meantime as far as I know we still have less than 50% of the voters behind Independence.
I accept that there are many who see UDI as the only option but what does that offer? Not what I want an Independent Scotland to be that’s for sure.
Some on Wings genuinely support UDI and that’s fine by me though I will always argue against it, when a democratic vote will get us there without trouble and strife.
I also believe that there are others posting that just want to stir the porridge and make trouble for the Independence movement. That’s their job, to make trouble.
How many times between now and the 8th of June do you think The Herald can run the same Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh story with nothing new to report. They have run the same story twice within a week, so at least once a week would seem likely. They are after another SNP scalp, they have tried for a few but we are still waiting for any of them to be found guilty of a crime.
Aye, heard urr. Interviewer [B.Whiteford?], hud urr up ah rid-enn, whin ae sid, wae arreddae huv Scoattish poalicies Labour urr noo listing.
Kid hear yoan coags turning, whin ae sid, thoan ull bae ah Scoattish National Railway, yurr talking aboot.
Quite difficult to achieve, but the Irrelevant Party just became more irrelevant, and something should be done about yon Butcher’s Aprons.
The FM visited my town on Monday. There was a small group of supporters waiting outside a baby clothes shop while NS did selfies.
A random old geezer was walking up the street and spotted a few SNP banners. He suddenly became animated when he realised who was in the shop.
“She’s breaking up the country, she’s breaking up the country.
“Where does she get the claes fae? She’s always got new claes. Where’s the money comin’ fae, eh?
“Ah’ve voatit Labour a’ ma days. Ah’ve always been a Labour man” (there then followed an inexplicable expression of pride on his wrinkled coupon).
He then proceeded up the street, talking incoherently as everyone ignored him and suddenly found interesting things to look at in shop windows as he passed.
BLiS______d, howling at the moon since 2007.
Like The Rev, can’t wait for their manifesto.
I understand the wariness over UDI, and accept that it is far from ideal – but what about withdrawing from the Treaty of Union – I’ve asked this question many times and get no answer. OK maybe there’s something I’ve missed and to withdraw would be impossible. It is my view that if we wait until close to Brexit we will never get another referendum. Anyone who thinks i’m being pessimistic should rerun British history. Will someone no please explain how we get our freedom?????
Inspirational stuff for a keen enthusiastic citizen lying face-down in a peat bog after a herd of trampling elephants sufferering from extreme diahorrea have run beresk through it, which the UK Labour party probably think are indigenous to Scotland and a common event.
@Bill McLean
Think of it from the other side of the fence. If you were against Independence would you just accept it if a Scottish government with a minority support took us out of the Union?
I doubt I would and I also doubt that many of the 55% that voted No would either. Our job is to reach a majority vote. I truly don’t believe there is any other possible way.
We’re all Scots and that includes those against Independence.
Hello to all a lurker speaks.
I’m usually content to shout agreement at the screen but this really caused me wind.
Labour says no referendum. Sorry can’t do that right of self determination (Article 1 Charter of UN).
Huge funding increase, a cry of push went up from the crowd etc. Put that beside the Vow.
Scottish Investment Bank. How can they not know about this stuff.
Inquiry into miners strike from 1985 seriously? Why now? What will be the benefits?
How can sane people vote for this crowd?
Sadly we preach often to the converted.
Regards to all.
@Thepnr etc, Thanks for considering my comment.
18th century United States etc, Comparisons like that are a nonsense.
1.Nobody disputes UDI would be a legal and valid means of independence.it
2, Do it by referendum? Nobody has an answer to WM saying not now, or no.
3. The Scottish Parliament – democratically elected – would be the people voting on UDI, democratically. They wouldn’t just declare it without a vote.
The Scottish Parliament is democratically elected on a PR basis. Thus, this would not be some type of coup de’tat. It would all be done democratically.
UDI would need to be in the manifesto for Holyrood elections.
People voting would know if a majority of pro-independence MSPs are elected they will likely vote for UDI.
The Parliament votes could be done in stages:
This Parliament believes Scotland’s Parliament represents the sovereign democratic voice of the people of Scotland, We agree that there should be a referndum on independence at the time of the Scottish Govt’s choosing.
If this parlament is refused consent for this referendum by the UK Govt or it attempts to delay it. This Parliament recognises the right that refusal for an independence referendum or Section 30 consent will give the right for this parliament to hold a vote on UDI.
If still no referendum Section 30.
Then a vote on UDI can be held.
Whether enough people will vote for independence via referendum or for pro-independence parties on a referendum or UDI vote if no referendum is allowed is a separate issue.
Yes lost the 2014 vote. The SNP has done nothing to advance the YES cause since. Still considering the currency answer THREE years after indi-ref. That’s no going to win many NO voters over to YES.
It’s all about more votes for the SNP. The SNP campaigning for WM. You couldn’t make it up. The SNP using old Labour slogans about stopping the Tories at WM is a nonsense.
I’m no politician, I tell it how I see it. It’s not porridge stirring. It’s not trolling. It’s called telling uncomfortable truths, because these are issues that have to be dealt with if we are to ever gain independence.
Of course, make sure you vote SNP at the GE this time. But the SNP have to come up with better answers on how independence can be achieved. It has to have better answers on the tricky questions on currency etc.
An answer on how it’s going to deal with an all out media / UK Govt / MI5 / diplomatic service etc all working flat out opposing independence.
With all that already organised to oppose another indi-ref, the OO is the least of our worries.
We are still having to rely on the good work of Wings to get pro-indy info. The Scottish Govt and/or SNP should be doing that.
Instead it’s just, vote SNP.
Yes, Vote SNP, but time the SNP earned those votes from independence supporters by doing the preparatory groundwork for independence.
Thepnr – Of course we have to have a majority for any course out of this union – but we will not win a referendum without a majority anyway – so no point.
I’m concerned that if we wait for Brexit, or the terms of Brexit to be clear ,Teresa May will tell us to get stuffed regardless of the size of any referendum majority, and we will have NO recourse possibly other than dissolving the union. Who will provide support then. We’ll be out of Europe and why should they bother then? It does not look promising from my perspective and the prospect of 20 more years of Tory rule is horrifying!
Guys that is my sole argument against UDI, without a majority we shouldn’t even contemplate it.
However as I have said before if a majority votes in favour for Independence either through a referendum or an election then we would need to seriously consider going down that route if Westminster ignored the wishes of the majority.
Maybe we’re not as far apart as you might think, let’s just make sure and bring the majority with us. Then it would be legal.
Thepnr – sure we are close and we all want the best for Scotland but can we get someone to explain where we stand legally in the Treaty of Union and if we can leave by revoking the Treaty. My understanding of international treaties is that any partner/member can leave if it chooses – but i’m no lawyer. I’m sure they will not let us go even if we have a majority of 60%. In my view even the UN won’t stand up for us – after all the UK of GB and NI is a permanent member of the security council! Looks bad to me if we leave it too long!
Not going too deep into the UDI discussion, except to say this,
We would not be doing a UDI in the normal sense of the thing.
Voting on the dissolution of the union, would be a more accurate definition.
Try this, the SG write to the U.N. and state that they (SG) have a dual mandate for a referendum (electorate and Scottish Parliament) and that the WM government are flat out denying Scotland a referendum on independence.
The letter points to the relevant U.N. charters regarding constitutional matters such as independence, and asks for clarity on the U.N. position on the SG voting to end the union due to a clear breach of the Act of Union and the previously mentioned U.N. charters.
We would have a Section 30 order for a referendum on our terms before you could blink
If we’re talking about the electorate of Scotland voting for independence in a referendum without a guarantee from Westminster that they will recognise and honour a yes result as being UDI then that’s already been approved previously.
However that isn’t considered by many as UDI on its own given the assumption that Westminster might be forced in the circumstances to the negotiating table.
At the moment the only tactic the unionists have is to portray each and every election as somehow negating the mandate Holyrood had in calling a second referendum.
Unfortunately for the others the Lib Dem manifesto seems to acknowledge that technically until we’ve actually been dragged out of the EU against our will the conditions the SNP set may not have been met. So including votes for Lib Dems to make their 50% for unionist candidates in order to excuse refusal of an S30 or even dingy a referendum held without one doesn’t? work. Not that it ever did.
If the SNP blank the ridiculous game the Conservatives are playing then it’s up to them to achieve a symbolic 50% total of votes from candidates standing in Scotland on a clear commitment to overturn the democratic decision made by a duly elected Holyrood Parliament, not Scottish Government, which can no longer include the Lib Dems unless the Westminster policy on Brexit changes before they can even pretend to have a mandate for a veto.
As the combined vote for SNP/Greens alone was over 50% last GE that’s going to be difficult to achieve especially as only one side is setting a target without the consent or agreement of the other so even should they pull it off it means nothing.
@Bill McLean see this Herald letter which discusses your topic of Scotland leaving the Act Of Union.
Google this: “Scotland could not withdraw from the 1707 Act of Union 5th February 2013”
@Bill McLean etc
Kosovo is the most apt legal comparison for UDI in my opinion. As it is in the modern era and was considered by the UK, EU etc.
It was also considered by the International Court of Justice. However, it was an advisory ruling, as even that court says it’s not for them to judge if a country is legally valid.
See also Craig Murray’s blog – he’s a former UK ambassador so should know a bit about countries.
He says it’s all about recognition. Other countries can recognise a new state or refuse to accept it.
Craig Murray says the UN Security Council does not have a veto over new countries joining.
The UN bases its recognition along the Montevideo Convention and other papers on what constitutes a state.
Basically, a fixed population, legal system, fixed borders etc.
All things that Scotland would easily meet.
Here is the pages for the INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE website on Kosovo’s UDI.
Google: Accordance with international law of the unilateral declaration of independence in respect of Kosovo (Request for Advisory Opinion).
For me UDI is preferable. UDI is the declaration you are a separate state, so the “parent” state has no jurisdiction over you.
Amending or dissolving the Act of Union would be a domestic legal matter. It would be up to the Westminster Parliament and ( probably English legal system) to do that.
We’d be back to the same predicament as a referendum or post YES vote: a UK Govt and WM MPs that don’t give a fig about Scottish democracy and view Scotland as a northern region England.
On the other hand, UDI would be between separate countries – international. The ICJ could give their ruling if the UK disputed the UDI, which it would be on shaky ground to do, as it supported Kosovan UDI.
However, at the end of the day, any country can choose to ignore any other country and refuse to accept they are an independent country.
Look at Ireland after a declaration of UDI, Stu and others said. That’s been a horror situation for the UK state too.
Does anyone think the UK state would want a repeat of Ireland’s situation, except on the UK mainland this time with an even bigger population?
No, the reality is that if the UK realises it can’t stop Scotland’s independence, they will do as they did with the likes of India and other countries. They will sit down to negotiate the process of independence. As that is the pragmatic, sensible option. It’s beest for the UK’s security and economic success too.
Anyone else notice the image at the bottom of the page is of the Welsh Assembly?