Think of another number
Normally when the BBC’s Andrew Neil asks a politician to put a figure on one of their policy proposals the interviewee should be wary, because a trap is about to be sprung.
For some reason that didn’t happen today.
Ian Murray MP did his part. When asked how much Labour’s plan to increase top-rate income tax to 50p to pay for “educational attainment” would raise, he obligingly pulled a figure out of thin air, claiming the move would generate between £60m and £110m.
Just a year ago, the then-Scottish Labour leader Jim Murphy was more optimistic:
Murphy’s successor Kezia Dugdale, on the other hand, was much less confident when interviewed by Holyrood Magazine just three months ago:
So that’s three wildly different figures from Labour in the space of a year for the same policy: a flat £250m, a range of £0-100m, and a range of £60-110m. Not a single one of the three agrees on either the minimum or maximum amount that would be raised.
(For extra fun, Murphy’s predecessor Johann Lamont put it at exactly £100m in March 2014, despite a seemingly major flaw in the equation: not being precisely certain at that point what the new top rate of “at least” 50p would be.)
And of course, the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which Scottish Labour was never slow to quote as a respected and impartial source during the independence referendum, thinks restoring the 50p top rate would raise just £100m in the whole UK, which would translate to less than £8m in Scotland.
But inexplicably, Andrew Neil – who’d normally pounce on such discrepancies like an owl swooping onto an unsuspecting field mouse – let Murray’s claim pass without a challenge and moved on to another question. Perhaps he was taking the view, with another poll today putting the Labour vote at Holyrood on just 21%, that it didn’t matter what Labour said about anything because they’re not going to be in power.
But in that case, why have Murray on at all? Why not just borrow the National Lottery machine and have it spit out a random number for what Labour were claiming income tax would raise? It’d make just as much sense and take up a lot less time.
I fancy that if Labour actually had any other MP’s in Scotland then this guy wouldn’t get a look in.
Now if it had been JaBa giving those figures, we could have believed her!!!
Any further news on wee Wingsy’s interview with Andrew Neil?
Or has it been kicked into the long grass?
“Any further news on wee Wingsy’s interview with Andrew Neil?
Or has it been kicked into the long grass?”
I’ve repeatedly said I’ll do it any time he likes. He’s gone rather quiet. He’s the one you should be bleating at, dear, not me.
So, it cost the whole of the UK £3 Billion… but Scotland would raise £100Million? That means for the same policy, Scotland is only at 3.33% of the UK.
I’m not saying that is right… I just seems unlikely that any of the figures quoted are accurate or believable.
Neil had a golden opportunity to floor him on more than one occasion, as did Brewer later with the COSLA rep.
Neil failed to question Murray on where exactly the money was coming from to finance Dugdale’s policies, and Brewer failed to mention the fact taht the Scottish government has fully funded(and possibly over funded) the Council tax each and every year since the introduction of the freeze, which Labour supposedly supported.
Can anyone explain the regular appearances, in the Brewster Scotland section, by that woman listed as “Former Liberal Advisor” – she seems to get plenty airtime on the politics programmes.
Does this mean the LibDems are still in existence?
@ Rev Jist as ah wiz gettin ma teeth roon a Nouget bar ( in the name of reseach u unnerstan), You change tack tae anither Nugget or two, canny sugar coat that pair.
How the hell is that wee fandan still getting airtime?
Under the 2012 Scotland Act, wouldn’t raising the top rate by 5p require all the other bands to be raised by 5p as well?
link to en.wikipedia.org
Maybe they have all had access to the fabled Treasury calculator? The poor machine is unravelling.
“as did Brewer later with the COSLA rep”
In fairness, Brewer was busy handing the guy more rope and watching as he hung himself. He nailed him to the wall, and there are only so many nails you can hammer in in a five-minute piece (or however long it was).
“Under the 2012 Scotland Act, wouldn’t raising the top rate by 5p require all the other bands to be raised by 5p as well?”
It would at the moment, yes. Labour propose to do it with the new powers, which look increasingly likely not to arrive at all.
Even with the help of a compliant and sympathetic interviewer, they keep on making an ar#e of it.
Don’t think the lottery machine carries enough numbers to cope with the variations Rev.
This is all wrong.
They’ll raise and lower taxes at the same time, do away with but at the same time keep the APD money and with three magic beans grow a beanstalk.
It’s easy!
Think the SNP need to come up with the same cunning plans along with what they would do with all the extra cash if they kept APD at current level before we get anything from the ever loyal BBC.
With all these widely varying estimates from representatives from the Labour Party, it only goes to prove that the education system under the Tory/Labour governments has failed them in their skills in mathematics or something else?
It boils down to they are either lacking intelligence or lying their heads off. Personally I think it’s both!
In 11 hours it will be 100 days till the 5th of May.
Tick, tick, tick………………………………………
Not so long to wait now folks to hear the excuses in 101 days time from the liars, fraudsters, con men, place-men, BBC and the harlequin tory party.
SNP 1 and 2 for me!
Murray had that awful look of a politician well rehearsed by the studio crew at the BBC. Dreadful waffle and bleh. After that SLab farce, BBC London Politics had on ultra toryboy mayor candidate Zak Goldenballs, who explained that council flats in his London constituency were now selling for 850 grand a pop, so he wants to build more and more and more! Also they want even more tubes, railways and roads, for London.
Just one more mental as anything red tory Bomber Bliar, Crash Gordon, Flipper Darling and co legacy.
Did anyone from “Scottish” Labour, ever attend a maths class?
I get the distinct impression our government is telling Westminster the meagre powers offered are unworkable, or are telling us, and that they will be rejected.
If the latter they’ll have to make the reasoning why plain beyond argument.
It doesn’t look odds on that the Myth Commission Fiscally Frameworky deal is going to happen, the FM didn’t seem like she was kidding on that this AM and they’ve only got about a month left to seal the deal and we know John Swinney has repeated this several times
For those wanting to know if a Referendum promise will be in the Manifesto, the latest is a qualified Yes
The qualifications being the EU Ref or a substantial change of heart Blah Blah stuff you’ve heard before
It would seem that the Anti Independence side wants it in because they hope it will cost the SNP votes by scaring off the Yoons to vote Tory
The Pro side wants it in to show their side of the argument is respected, in light of both arguments folk have been rowing about what the SNP should do and it would seem they’ve chosen exactly the right path right down the middle where everybody gets what they want
Us Yessers get Aye if they piss us off we’re having one
The Nawbags get it wont happen unless you want it
Basically circumstances will dictate and that’s what’ll be in it
Summary of yesterdays email fae the boss
[…] Think of another number […]
Any increase on top rate tax on Scotland would have a negative effect on the tax take. This is clearly and wholly obvious. Anyone with two addresses, one in Scotland, one in England, would ensure their tax registered address is the one in England. And who is likely to have two addresses? The wealthy.
With properties in poor areas of England available for a few tens of thousand pounds, it doesn’t take much for that to make sense and the cost to Scotland of a 50p top rate would be massive.
On the other hand, cutting top rate tax would greatly increase the amount of tax generated in Scotland as the richer taxpayer flock to become “Scottish” and benefit from the huge savings.
Sad to see the guy who ran the largest arts festival in Europe for 7 years stoop to exaggerating.
Perception of balance, as they broadcast an interview with Nicola in there other Sunday political program thought I noted Marr was not in as accommodating mode, attempting to summon the ghost that so scared tory voting England last May.
That the increasing leaky vessel “Great Britain” should even in part have Scots hands at the tiller.
Think we’ve all got this wrong.
We may ridicule these deluded Red Yoons but at the end of the day they are becoming a minority by their own hand and reduce their votes even time they speak
The noise inside their own vacuum must be deafening.
Well, Stu has proved time and time again, we cannot believe anything that comes from a Unionist source.
Labour/ Slab are right up there with them.
A wee thought on Indy2, I would suggest that voters are those who really stay here, esablished by where they pay their tax or would have to pay their tax if in employment here. Would that not stroke out those who have registered a holiday home here and voted NO last time.
Just a thought, as that would sort that situation out. If their tax returns go to a tax office in England they should not be in as staying in Scotland.
Not sure how that would be practicle, maybe would not work, but seems an option.
Dair
Are you perhaps forgetting the principle that binds us all Better Together? That no part of UKOK plc. should enjoy a competitive advantage, apart from London, obviously.
Les Wilson, I would precede the indyref2 with a “two million petition”, it could turn into a very historical document of all the Scots who put their names (and addresses) to wanting independence.
Can be checked online for forgeries. BT is welcome to gather its own “save the union” petition if it wants.
A logistical nightmare? Not when the SNP has 100K+ members… just needs each member ensuring and checking circa 20 signatures.
Simples. And should raise a few eyebrows if the postal votes comes in “funny” on the day.
I keep saying: indyref2 should only be held as the FINAL RUBBERSTAMP on the whole process.
I’ve been watching Neil’s new “softer side” towards Scottish politicians with growing suspicion over the last couple of weeks. It was all jolly and friendly with Philippa Whitford last week and now this with Murray. My take on it is that he is after the big fish, Nicola. I remember some months ago he was asked why he didn’t get her on the show and he gave a sullen “chance would be a fine thing”. He’s honeying the trap, “see I’m just a cuddly puppy”. He’s licking his lips at the chance. The rabbid dog would be right back in an attempt to grab the headlines, screw the SNP and influence the May election. I’m sure he’s on a promise from Cameron if he could pull it off. If your reading this Nicola avoid the greasy Alistair like the plague.
@jimnarlene
Iain Grey of “Subway” fame must have attended. He was a teacher!
Potentially an important interview from the First Minister.
(1) Failure to agree the fiscal framework is sufficient to include a referendum pledge in the manifesto (when it is clear that there is a majority in favour of independence).
(2) Lack of respect for other nations ensures that Scottish government will keep a good distance between it and the UK government – claiming that the Prime Minister is only interested in winning the vote, not the argument.
Lovely to see the most dangerous woman in the UK doing her stuff so elegantly.
Rev, i got as far as this and almost moved on:
“Normally when the BBC’s Andrew Neil asks a politician…”
The only reason i didn’t was due to knowing who wrote the article above and as usual it didn’t disappoint. You seem to be fishing for a reason as to why Neil failed to pursue Murray’s airy-fairy lies, and rightly so.
You even throw in a credible suggestion of your own and no doubt it may very well be true, however, as a BBC employee Neil has a duty to licence payers to expose the truth and demolish lies.
Mind you, what more do we expect from an organisation which has employed and shielded child abusers for decades and along with their masters at Warminster have forced Jo Public to pay for it!
For BBC please read zero credibility!
What I took from today’s interview with Murray was that labour are so desperate that they are throwing all ther their eggs into the one basket, namely Keza.
Keza’s doing this Keza’s do that, she’s new, she’s fresh and reaching out to the universe, etc trying to sell as the new messiah. This truely signifies barrel scraping to a level never seen before in the annals of human history.
I would not send Keza out of a poke of chips and expect her to return with a poke of chips.
On given the money, she’d probably skip unconcerned down the road to speak to Jackie to ask how to buy chips. On her way to Jackies she would get distracted and realise the money had fallen out of her pocket. At this point she would go into hiding and become anxious, once Keza composed herself, she would skip back to the house four hours late with some made up lame excuse for loosing the money and not having chips.
The excuse?
Blame the lack of chips on the SNP!
cosla
cant wait till the next council elections when even the most teneous justification for even having him on the tv will be removed
@jimnarlene says: 24 January, 2016 at 1:24 pm:
“Did anyone from “Scottish” Labour, ever attend a maths class?”
Of course they did – but they spent every period in class not listening while telling the tutors they were wrong and that their Labour Party, (job lot), calculators all gave different answers.
What the didn’t realise was that each Labour Party calculator also didn’t agree with each other.
Dair says;”Any increase on top rate tax on Scotland would have a negative effect on the tax take. This is clearly and wholly obvious. Anyone with two addresses, one in Scotland, one in England, would ensure their tax registered address is the one in England. And who is likely to have two addresses? The wealthy.”
Dair, that would go some way to answering whether this was factored into the £100million’ish estimate for Scotland as opposed to £3Billion for the UK as a whole (or 3.33%).
If so, it would be interesting if this is stated somewhere? Are unionists claiming (within their estimates), that the whole concept of different tax rates within the current framework, is unworkable?
brewer….talking about the snp
too bad the entire program was a ppb for the unionist
I must say their ludicrous quotes, make their APD quotes look positively sane.
Got the correct address for that artificial sweetener Aspartame. No wonder I and others are ill. You are better with sugar in moderation.
The correct address:
link to pixton.com
Stephen Roney.
The Yoons can have no complaint over Indy Ref 2 being “offered” to Scotland in the Brexit case
Fat boy Cameron is offering the UK a EU vote that nobody actually asked for except fat boy Cameron
Just shows you the effect a no mark like Nigel Farage had on the Tories
Here’s a wee aside, why does the British media still treat the Lib Dums as if they’re a relevant political party
They don’t exist in Scotland, they barely exist in England
but for some unknown reason their opinion is sought on everything WHY?.. WHY?
The “BIG” 24 hour news don’t seem interested in what the UKs 3rd largest party has to say
Is that because we’re Scottish and not relevant to England, are the SNP opinions not EVEL enough
@Les Wilson 2:20
I worked for a London based company for decades while having my office location in Scotland all that time. My tax office was in Leeds.
I’d be careful about disenfranchising genuine residents with such a simple metric.
I notice, from the latest You.gov poll, that in terms of the party leaders’ approval rating, Willie Rennie and Ruth Davidson both have a higher approval rating than Dippity Dug.
A dead woman walking, I feel.
@Dr Jim – Strikes me that the reason the SNP are ignored is because they don’t want the population of the other kingdom to realise that the SNP have policies that are mainstream in Scotland but extreme where they are.
The BBC and the rest of them daren’t let it be widely known that the SNP is much more than a single issue party.
@Robert Letters,
Good one.
If they had abacuses, they would have different rows and columns, but no balls.
Dr Jim, it is not just the Unionist media. I had to tweet to Abby Martin (formerly of RT) when she was mentioning the Liberal Democrat stance on something recently (Syria?). I had to inform her that they have 8 MPs (including the disgraced Carbuncle, who had not been cleared yet) as opposed to the SNP with FIFTY-SIX members of Parliament.
Regarding Dippity Dug, I am amazed she is even capable of putting her tights on in the morning — without getting tied up in knots.
Peffers not Letters ffs.
Rum again…
Socrates MacSporran says:
24 January, 2016 at 4:06 pm
“I notice, from the latest You.gov poll, that in terms of the party leaders’ approval rating, Willie Rennie and Ruth Davidson both have a higher approval rating than Dippity Dug.
A dead woman walking, I feel.”
Surely Socrates , in respect to Willie Rennie it should have been a higher ‘removal’ not ‘approval’ rating. And after May Ms Dugdale will also be subject to a ‘removal’ rating by her own party, no poll required on that one.
It would be more entertaining if Scottish Labour MP Ian Murray pulled a bunch of Flowers out of his arse, than figures out oif the air. Old shredded wheat hairdo is as bad as Kirsty Wark or Jackie Bird. If it’s a Scottish Unionist MP of any colour, they are lead by the hand and guided what to say, or encouraged to do anything that reflects bad on the SNP or bums their own team up. How future generations in an Independent Scotland will view these parasites, God only knows? Incompetent liars get the telly hours, whereas the SNP get next to nil, unless it’s to peddle SNPBAD.
Pathetic doesn’t begin to cover it. Let’s fo this for future generations. SNP x2 in May, SNP next year for the Council Elections. Unionism is a cancer. Let’s cut it out completely.
Stephen Roney.
The real question here is why? Bunter Murray’s ugly mug has been on the box more times recently than Saville yet his party has one representative in Scotland. Him and his northern branch are irrelevant.
All they do is tell lies
link to twitter.com
A wee reminder from previous thread, unionists having a go at Nicola for not reaching her target. Here’s the link if anyone wants to donate
link to crowdfunder.co.uk
Surely, from Slabber’s previous blatherins, the top rated tax people would just up sticks and head south?
Scottish Labour and Jimmy Saville. The common factor? Both fucking corpses.
Stephen.
@Dr Jim
The email I got didn’t even mention the words Independence and Referendum, so you must be on a “higher hierarchy” than me. I guess I’m just one of the taken for granted plebs.
After Wishart in the SH (and other MPs): “ “We’ve had that referendum, we got a decisive result, and we said that would be a once in a generation referendum.” using the language of Unionists – “decisive”, “once in a generation”, I will be watching very carefully. If the manifesto doesn’t have a carefully worded commitment to a Referendum based on certain circumstances, enough at any rate to give the ScotGov a clear mandate to ask Cameron for Indy Ref 2, I will be resigning from the SNP.
I didn’t join in September 2014 to play party political games, I joined to keep Independence alive.
When you’ve been used to the BBC regurgitating all your press releases as fact without question, it’s hard to break the habit of pulling figures out of your arse.
Just crowdfunded for NIcola. If you can afford please do it. Don’t give the BUM or the rednecks of any party any satisfaction!
@ yesindyref2
” If the manifesto doesn’t…..I will be resigning from the SNP.”
I’m sad that you have so little faith in the SNP leadership – they have not done too bad so far, can you not cut them a bit of slack? Why threaten them at this stage?
I also thought we were past the business of Cameron “allowing” another referendum, surely the sovereign people of Scotland decide?
I watched Neil’s questioning of Ian Murray MP this morning with interest. I couldn’t help but think Murray is a brave man. It took guts for him to say, more than once during the interview, that the housing crisis in Scotland was caused by the current SNP government. Or was it bare faced cheek on Murray’s part? I don’t think I’d want to go anywhere near that topic when my party while in power, not so very long ago, only managed to build the grand total of 6 council houses in Scotland.
SIX!
In the WHOLE of Scotland!
Surely, if Scottish Labour, when in power, had built more houses the housing crisis wouldn’t be as bad as it is. It seems to me that the current SNP administration are doing their best to address the issue.
Why would a unionist interviewer in debt to the elite organisers of the state propaganda machine attack a fellow traveller?
The BBC will do everything to push the SNPbad story AND the Scottish Labour good propaganda. The latter is proving more difficult so the best they can do is provide a Party Political broadcast disguised as an interview ( Positive Kezia is so positive it makes up for any detail)
Done Bill. ?
Hello,
Also please be aware that all seafarers are taxed via the Cardiff tax office.
On the subject of tax my wife has still not had a letter informing her she is a Scottish tax payer.
Its not long until April,,anyone else not had a letter?
@Sassenach
Yes, the “People of Scotland” decide, but the easy rout os for our elected Government to have a mandate to ask for a Referendum on Independence, get an S30 Order, put in a Referendum Bill, and hold a Referendum which will be binding on Westminster. Anything else is a problem.
Cutting slack is one thing, seeing a 5 year delay before the ScotGov can even ask for another Referendum would be quite another. While we might be expected to “keep the fairth” in them, they too must “keep the faith” in us.
Wishart is the SNP’s shadow leader of the House of Commons, and chair of the Commons’ Scottish Affairs Select Committee. Others giving their names to this rubbish are John Mason (MP), Alyn Smith (MEP), and Tommy Sheppard (MP).
Patience folks.
If progress seems to be at snails pace, it is reasoned.
Indyref2 will be the final nail, into a coffin they’d like us to fall into ourselves.
@yesindyref2
Go to more information and click constitution
@yesindyref2
Has any political party ever done anything which wasn’t specifically in their manifesto?
The SNP’s whole ethos is about achieving independence (or have I mistaken the party’s core aim??), so nobody could complain if a circumstance arose and a referendum called without it having been a specific manifesto commitment, surely?
But my point was, no decision has yet been made, so why the threats? If you eventually disagree with the manifesto, resign and join a different party that is more likely to achieve your aim of independence! Good luck with that.
@Dr Jim – you mean this?:
“Our manifesto for the Holyrood election will lay out the possible circumstances for any future vote on independence.
However, any decision on whether or not there is another referendum – and ultimately on whether or not Scotland ever becomes independent – will always be for the people of Scotland.”
Well, the issue was put off until the Spring Conference, the manifesto isn’t due yet, so as I said, I’ll wait and see.
But there are those that have wondered if the SNP are flying a kite, with “senior sources”, and now named MPs and an MEP. A kite with the idea of dropping Indy for this Election, to try to make sure they get re-elected. I had the faith, now I’m a doubting Thomas. The proof of the pudding will be in the manifesto.
@Sassenach
The SNP was the only party I ever joined, in Sep 2014 after the Ref, to “keep the dream alive”. I’m not your actual party political type, and if I do leave the SNP I’ll not be joining any other party. I’ll go back to being non-aligned, but still a long-term Indy supporter – and critic.
For anyone who missed this.
Murnaghan Interview with Kezia Dugdale MSP, leader of Scottish Labour, 24.01.16
link to archive.is
@yesindyref2
” I’ll go back to being non-aligned, but still a long-term Indy supporter – and critic.”
Very glad to hear that, we all have the same goal after all.
For those who joined the SNP on one single issue(Independence) and are now threatening to leave, resign, be not a part of any more, be a dead parrot,
Would you just get over yourselves a little bit here
As well as representing Independence and the hopes and wishes of at least half the population of our country they have a few other trivial matters to take care of and I’m not going to insult anybody by listing them, but there’s a lot
This crappy Union that we’re in has been around for three hundred years what makes anybody think the SNP can dismantle that kind of grip on our country easily
The Yoons would kill every one of us to death happily if it could be done that way and nobody can say they haven’t done it before over a lot less
Nobody should be in any doubt The SNP movement top to bottom live and breathe Independence
My party, and it is my party, have been planning this for a very long time and all of us know if we bugger it up by making a wrong move at the wrong time (It’s Fukcing Over)
make no mistake about it
No other party in Scotland will ever be powerful enough to pull this off except maybe the Labour party if they ever got back in, but they’re Yoons so they wont will they
Frustration’s understandable, but nobody’s more frustrated than anybody else, nobody’s special but we all count
There are many things Nicola Sturgeon makes no comment about that she could, but it’s wasted energy and she knows it, her concentration is on the big issue and how to get there
Slowly slowly catchee monkey
But if you rush things the monkey Fukcs off and you’ve missed your chance
I have not received any “tax change” notification. As an offshore worker employed by an Oil major I currently pay through an English tax centre. I wonder if this is going to be continued?
I’ve also questioned many times why Offshore workers in Scottish waters are paying their tax through centres dictated by their employers registered office. Will we have company employees on the same platform paying different rates of tax? Will it be based on Company HQ? Will it be on home address?
Income in Scottish waters – Scottish tax!
Inarticulate, innumerate and impressive!y unprincipled. Behold, the career politician. Lots of you vote for him, so he exists, !ike one of those silly gods in a Terry Pratchett novel,who can only manifest while there are people foolish enough to believe in them.
@Sassenach
I thought twice about renewing in September, but decided I didn’t want to see the membership drop, as the anti-SNP brigade would have dined out on that for months.
But some of us are better on the outside – I’d name Craig M as one. Sympathetic, but being able to be very critical at times. One reason I did join as well in Sep 14 was to be active in party reforms, but what I found is that there is plenty of “dissent” in the SNP, and people very active in pushing their arguments – so I wasn’t “needed” for that. The SNP members really are not sheeples.
Being non-aligned would make it easier for me again to get on with soft NOes and even apparently strongly anti-Indy people. Not to convince, but to help open minds. That’s what I tried to do during Indy Ref 1 (and succeeded at times, I think).
But I’ll see how it goes.
Nana – thanks for the link to Nicola’s crowdfunder, I didn’t know she had one on the go, and have just donated. I think too, the yoons deserve a big thanks for highlighting it. 🙂
I see that there is now a new ‘stretch total’ aiming for £10k – hope that too is reached.
The Orkney 4s crowdfunder seems a bit stuck at the moment, although, perhaps like me, others are waiting in the wings (see what I did there. ;-)) to see how much will still be required nearer the deadline and donate again to ensure they hit their target, fingers crossed.
@yesindyref2
I agree with you.
I posted a comment with Tommy Sheppard’s comments about not seeking a mandate, but then remembered youtube links go to the spam bin here.
I think a direct commitment for indyref2 isn’t likely, and another referendum isn’t going to be anytime soon, but if the wording in the manifesto doesn’t at least give a mandate for an optional referendum (if a majority want that), it is a big mistake.
The danger is it looks like the SNP has given up on independence, and the momentum is lost. I could see members start to drift away, and the chance of more significant powers disappearing if the threat of a second referendum isn’t there.
I know there has to be a demographic shift and the oil situation has to settle. But no mandate will cause many to lose hope.
@Dr Jim “For those who joined the SNP on one single issue(Independence) and are now threatening to leave, resign, be not a part of any more, be a dead parrot,
Would you just get over yourselves a little bit here”
Why? Why don’t you just “get over yourself”, eh, eh?
@Onwards
You can het a youtube link posted if you strip off the “http: //” from the front and just leave the www. part of it.
Yes, there is indeed no way the SNP can have a definite unconditional promise of a Referendum in the manifesto, but they do need a cery carefully worded conditional one.
Another factor is the “Valentine’s Day Agreement” on the Scotland Bill – or absence of one. That’ll have to be very carefully handled, or in fact, laid out leaving a trap for the Unionist parties for them to fall into.
There’s no doubt the SNP have a delicate juggling act to perform, but they can’t afford to drop their balls on anything, including Indy support. A large part of their 90,000 new members joined for that, how many is anyone’s guess. I’m just one.
Aye TJenny the yoons won’t like how Nicola’s fundraiser has exceeded it’s target. LOL
link to twitter.com
Yet another peccadillo f4om our Mr Brillo.
I’m blocked from his twitter account for my own
qualified assessment of his corrupt political questioning
in favour of the establishment crossing his palm with silver.
(More than 30 pieces for sure)
Brillo Heid’s objectives are quite clearly highlighted by
his UK OK attitude.
He will inevitably pick up regular invitations to mix with his masters at their various luxury events, consolidate his wonderful job of reading out the BBC Spin Doctors questions, and of course he will have to be given a gong on some kind.
OBE – Obstreperous B****ard’s England
I smile every time I hear Kezia go on about 60,000 houses. It is living embodiment that Labour have learned nothing.
The SNP government has built 30,000 houses in this parliament and plans to build 50,000 in the next parliament (double the Westminster target). Labour suddenly pluck 60,000 out their hat.
It is the 1,000 more nurses than the SNP are going to employ, Murphyesque strategy used at the last election. How did that pan our Kezia? People may get fooled with some election promises and flim flam but when they are as mentalist and blatant as this it is pretty easy to knock down. The Labour Government did not exactly cover itself in glory on the house building front when it was in office. The SNP has a track record of building so why would we trust frauds, fakes and charlatans with no such track record?
I suppose it is still panto season.
All together now:
All: “Kezia! It’s behind you!!”
K: “Whit is?”
All: “Guess!!”
@Kenny says: 24 January, 2016 at 4:25 pm:
“Regarding Dippity Dug, I am amazed she is even capable of putting her tights on in the morning — without getting tied up in knots”
And your evidence that she doesn’t is :-
@Onwards says: 24 January, 2016 at 6:26 pm:
@yesindyref2
” … but then remembered youtube links go to the spam bin here.”
YouTube Likns do not go to the spam bin, yesindyref2.
What you do is post the link but take of the bit before the WWW bit. The blog will put the missing bit back again.
Like this :-
link to youtube.com
Sorta O/T
One poster some time above briefly mentioned the EU Ref which Ms Sturgeon quite rightly doesn’t want to see coming immediately after the Scottish parliament elections
For anyone that’s interested, here’s a little example of what to expect propaganda-wise from the “leave” grouping
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
Perhaps previous posts are not familiar enough with Mr Murray
and his gushes toward all the many things that Dippity Dug
is promising with zero funding?
You see when he has played the part of the good supportive son
of Labour, he can kiss goodbye to the Dug forever just as the May election results pore in.
As Labour’s only remaining elected representa in their entire North Accounting Unit, he will become Leader, MP, Member, and Rear Admiral of the sinking ship.
A position that guarantees him a nice wee ermine robe and a
recliner seat in the House of Parasitic Lords.
yesindyref2 says:
24 January, 2016 at 6:37 pm
“There’s no doubt the SNP have a delicate juggling act to perform, but they can’t afford to drop their balls on anything, including Indy support. A large part of their 90,000 new members joined for that, how many is anyone’s guess. I’m just one.”
Yep, I really hope Sturgeon gets it right.
I can see the thinking. If we aren’t likely to have a second indyref before 2021, then make the 2021 Holyrood election an effective referendum for a referendum.
Whilst hoping to pick up some unionist votes this year from those who don’t want independence but might vote SNP.
But how likely is that really?
Are Tories suddenly going to switch to SNP in the next 3 months, if independence is removed from the manifesto?
And Labour must be down to the diehards at this point.
Surely an approach of ‘we support independence, but will leave it to the people’ is the best one. It’s hard to argue with that.
It’s one thing to have patience – but if it looks like the SNP have gone soft on indy, it doesn’t help with rebuilding support in 5 years time. Whereas if a mandate exists, the constitution is kept on the agenda.
OK, trying again, here is Tommy Sheppard’s position (at 25:00)
Found one with video, not just audio.
link to livestream.com
‘The Carrying Stream (s)’
Honest,fact based information,trickling through small streams and burns,merge to form an tsunami of truth.
‘Political Bullshitters’
An overindulgence in bullshit by manufacturers has led to a massive drop in demand from end users,the distributor’s are left high and dry,plenty of product,no customers.
The distributor’s are unappy with the manufacturers as the product is ever closer to it’s ‘sell by date’,however they continue to pile it on and continue market it.
The storm is on it’s way,wave by wave it’s coming,bullshit addicts and their co dependants are about to be washed away by the carrying streams.
Tick Tock
@Nana says: 24 January, 2016 at 6:41 pm:
“Aye TJenny the yoons won’t like how Nicola’s fundraiser has exceeded it’s target. LOL
link to twitter.com
Aye! Nana, I found the Bitter together comments on that link were hilarious.
I don’t tweet, (I do sometimes squawk a bit, though), or I would have pointed out to the bitter ones that people are donating to the campaign and Nicola’s own income is restricted.
The numpties are obviously far too thick to understand that Nicola cannot use her own salary. The rules set what can be used and even donations over the limit must be declared.
I’d have pointed out that I’m a disabled OAP and I’m forced to donate to London’s infrastructure via such things as VAT, Road Fuel Duty, and other taxes that all contribute towards such as the New London Sewerage System, London Cross-Rail, Heathrow, Olympic Stadium. et al.
LOL …the Scottish Labour Party. Clueless and lost. A party that dreams to raise the aspirations of a nation, but somehow seem baffled as to how that end should be achieved. Strangely, at times, it seems that some of the Labour MSP’s (and of course, Ian Smart) do try to raise hope for the party by making a statement …only to find that the response is stares, silence and tumbleweed.
Sooner or later, one of them is going to come out and state the obvious that ‘independence is the only way to save the Scottish Labour Party’ …and when they do, half a nation will cheer, while a fair portion of the other side will ponder and may even reflect on not only what might come, but what it might truly mean for Scotland overall.
When that Scottish Labour politician person makes that statement, not only might they save their political career …but the very foundations of Scottish politics will tremble at all the possibilities that could transpire.
They may even go down in the history books with such a public statement.
@Onwards
Instead of getting on with work (any excuse), I’ve rerun my by region uniform swing spreadsheet based on the Panelbase Poll (which isn’t good for Greens). One anomaly is Lothian – I’ve left Margo’s seat as “other” because I don’t know what to do with it. Seats predictions are constituency + list = total. The “was” is the pre-Christmas TNS poll. I used scotlandvotes for the constituency seats prediction.
SNP 66 + 9 = 75, was 71 + 7 = 78 = -3
Lab 0 + 25 = 25, was 0 + 25 = 25 = NC
Con 5 + 14 = 19, was 1 + 13 = 14 = +5
Lib 2 + 3 = 5, was 1 + 1 = 2 = +3
Grn 0 + 3 = 3, was 0 + 9 = 9 = -6
Oth 0 + 2 = 2, was 0 + 1 = 1 = +1
Yes, the SNP can’t afford to look soft on Indy, because support can drift away, either not bother voting, or go to a hardline Indy party on the list at least. It’s getting tighter for that all-important SNP overall majority – to allow them to call Indy Ref 2 if called for.
I’m aware it’s two totally different polling companies, on the other hand, 2011 showed a huge shift in the last 3 months. It’s all to play for.
IMO, Unionist preferences, in order:
1. Wet Dream: SNP rules out indyref2 in manifesto, support leaves in droves, unionist majority in Holyrood.
2. 2nd best: SNP makes no mention of indyref2 in manifesto, support leaves to unknown extent, unionist majority in Holyrood possible.
3. Nightmare scenario: SNP leaves indyref2 an open option depending on when the people want it (polls) or if circumstances change sufficiently, support stays, SNP majority in Holyrood.
The BBC is Scotland’s enemy number one.
To go into the next indy ref without 60% support is madness.
I distrust anyone who pushes to go without this support. I especially distrust anyone who encourages withdrawing support for the SNP on this basis. The dream will never die but
Effigy:
Mr Brillo – I’m blocked from his twitter account for my own qualified assessment of his corrupt political questioning in favour of the establishment crossing his palm with silver.
He’s reminding you, and us, that he’s part of the media power elite, and it’s up to him what agenda is chosen and what narrative presented. We are the masses who must listen but NOT participate.
yesindyref2
I was feeling fairly glum after reading all the stuff in the herald about there being no manifesto commitment. I will wait and see how this pans out.
Was looking through the Rev’s polling and came across some very interesting results from last year: link to wingsoverscotland.com
Panelbase asked which unions folk wanted to be in and the results were 31% UK in EU, 15% UK out of EU, 32 Indy Scotland in EU and 11% Indy Scotland out of EU.
Not sure how these stats have changed since but as it boils down to about 70.8% IN and 29.2% OUT it sounds like people are slightly less pro EU now than they were.
From these stats though we are currently in a situation where 31% of folk are happy with being in the UK and in Europe against 43% pro indy. If we get dragged out of the EU by a vote to leave down south we find ourselves in the UK and out of the EU- 15% of people will then be happy.
How do these pro EU pro UK voters break in a future indyref – obviously not everyone who ticks a box saying they want to remain in the EU is passionate about it but I reckon a fair number would be pro-EU enough to vote Yes in a future snap indyref as that would be the only surefire way of returning (or indeed remaining) in the EU.
Say the Sunday Times poll is right and the Yes vote is currently sitting at 47%. If we can rely on that percentage to stay Yes then we would need only about 10% of those PRO EU unionists to see a Yes vote as the way back into the EU. I would be surprised if the number was anywhere near as low as 10%.
10% of those pro-EU unionists would be all we would need.
Of course some Yes supporters could change their vote with the prospect of leaving the hated EU but that seems like an altogether less likely proposition. The ‘don’t knows’ in the poll I mention would break one way or another… or remain unsure and not vote again.
So my reading, and presumably the SNP’s is that an indyref after a UK vote to leave the EU would be significantly easier to win. I can hardly imagine more promising circumstances although there is many a slip ‘twixt cup and lip.
If I felt the SNP’s commitment to independence was wavering or diminishing I would vote for someone else but I think they are just doing a little positional play while the tories do the running and the pieces line up.
It is tactics (or certainly seems that way to me). No commitment to a second indyref in the manifesto is not really for your benefit or mine- its for the pro EU yoons to understand when the SNP do call a new ref after Brexit that they are justified in doing so. I think. Not sure what I feel about it but just trying to work it through in my head.
Famous15 at 8.57
Anything consistently around 55% on various polls will be more than sufficient if we supervise the referendum ourselves but we may wait forever.
We do not own,record,regulate or weigh these polls.
Polls we do ourselves will be the only reliable indicators.
I do not believe we have a lot of time.The tide will go out unless there is a prospect in view of a referendum.
In the meantime the SNP should be putting together an Independence Convention manned by respected and trusted prominent figures to carry the message forward on a continuous basis and to seek public participation in the submission of a vision for a new Scotland
“..But no mandate will cause many to lose hope”
Absolutely pathetic.
Getting evicted/deported /tried for treason/sent to fight foreign wars/15% in the polls/ridiculed as extreme/ tarred as tartan tories…I could get medieval with comparisons but it’s before the watershed.
LOSE HOPE?
Get a grip!
STAND UP WITH THE COURAGE OF YOUR CONVICTIONS.
Those who lose hope so easily, can surely have it restored later.
I have faith in a party who have not only matured DURING A FINANCIAL CRASH
But who face off daily abuse from the media WITHOUT LOSING HOPE.
@Famous15
You may very well be correct, the SNP may well have been ‘mad’ to embark on 1ndyref1 with only c 30% pro indy support indicated in the polls, however I am reminded that the 45% attained was very close, within foul hailing closeness in fact.
While I hesitate to use emotive terms like ‘madness’ I do however wonder what the rationale for a 60% trigger when we already know that around 15% are still intent on voting Tory and 20% still inexplicably intent on voting Labour. Is it not the case that this represents a hard core of support which is simply not persuadable?
In which case your 60% trigger point would mean that very nearly everyone who can be persuaded of the merits of normal levels of self-government would already be convinced before the campaign even started.
Rock
Why just the British broadcasting cult,
Scottish ("Tractor" - Ed)ous vilified are just as corrupt cultural,
We need out own broadcast industry in Scotland
We will lose the momentum if we don’t
And pig the pig fucker knows this why else would he arrange a meeting with the head of Sony ?
So no one is under any illusion.
If Slab get into power in May, the only way they will finance ANYTHING will be through PFI.
You have been warned.
This debate about whether the SNP will include the option for a 2nd Referendum in their manifesto shouldn’t be debated too much.
Some may perceive that the SNP are caught between a rock and hard place with this option; if they add it, then do they upset the other 50% who don’t want one, or if they don’t include it, does it upset their own nationalist support.
I think the clues have been given by Nicola. She may not include it in the SNP manifesto, but she has publicly declared that any attempt to remove Scotland from the EU (should we vote to remain in) will lead to the implementation of Referendum 2. So, right there is your confirmation that the SNP would call one should England not only vote to pull us out of the EU, but it goes against the wishes of a ‘majority’ of Scots.
That alone should be enough to not only suggest that the SNP are still committed to a second Referendum, but cleverly, they are quietly holding it back and not saying a word. Let the Unionists foam at the mouth, just as Ruth Davidson does. Near enough every interview that she now does, has a quote demanding to know when the SNP will have one. Ruthie would love Nicola to call one right now, since half the nation would groan (while half would cheer) …and you know what …I believe we would lose again under the present conditions.
By holding back and not saying yea or nay, Nicola is cleverly trying not to upset either camp. She has stated that 60% is her preferred basemark for calling one. That will only come if people feel threatened (as in being removed from the EU).
Personally, I don’t want another Referendum until we really do have the upper hand. 51%, though a victory, would lead to real bitterness and probably outbreaks of violence from hardcore Unionists. We need 60% at the very beginning of a declaration for a 2nd Referendum, and that will only come should England vote to remove the UK from Europe. If that result should come to pass, then the ‘Yes’ percentages will jump immediately since the people in Scotland will get fearful over the economy, their jobs and their pensions (the very thing that the Unionists used on us in the first Referendum. This time, the boot will be on the other foot). Sterling will tumble, as will the Euro …and once both economies are rocked, then the EU will ‘punish’ the UK for causing this. The taxation on import and export duties to Europe will go up and Europe will ‘punish’ us financially. And only God knows how many companies will bolt for Europe and abandon the UK if it is an ‘out’ vote.
If the Scottish people believe that their financial security lies with Europe, then a 2nd Referendum will be called immediately …irrespective if it was in the SNP’s manifesto or not. They will look to the Scottish Government for protection, belief, and for financial security.
If this all came to pass …I do believe we would win the next time round. The Unionists would struggle badly to explain how being outside the richest trading zone in the world makes economic sense. If Europe punishes us …who else are we going to trade with? America …apart from being a vast ocean away, they would also cynically tax us heavily just because they know they would have us over a financial barrel. Who else …the Chinese; same again …too far away. South America? One word …Malvinas. I can hear the screeching now from Whitehall and Westminster. The whole of South America would refuse to trade until the last British imperial post in their continental waters has been surrendered.
So a debate about a second Referendum. Personally, I wouldn’t wring my hands in frustration if it’s not really mentioned in the manifesto. Just because it doesn’t get mentioned, doesn’t mean it’s off the table or kicked into the long grass. I believe it’s our joker to be played if the circumstances are right. That’s why the Unionists are worried …because they can’t tell when we’ll actually play it, and when we do, next time, it will be quite devastating to the British Union.
Some people seem to have very short memories. They seem to have forgotten that at the start of indyref1 the polls had NO at 70% and they ended up at 55%. A 15% drop.
Now you want to go for indyref2 when the polls are at 60% YES- and if there is a 15% drop? Oh look: 45%
Like shares, percentages can go down as well as up.
I think you need a much, much bigger groundswell for YES than 60%.
There also seems to be a sub-text whereby people would prefer to walk away from the SNP jeapordising the SNP’s chance of winning the GE for Holyrood and thus leave the people of Scotland to the tender mercies of the other parties.
OK, I am now convinced we need the ubiquitous (but mythical) 110% in the polls before we start indyref2. 🙂
Legerwood
“I think you need a much, much bigger groundswell for YES than 60%.”
Unless Westminster starts testing nukes on the Scottish mainland 70% yes ie excluding the die hard will-never-consiser-voting-yes unionists is the theoretical maximum.
To achieve 60% would be miraculous- 60% as a starting point seems almost impossible and you want it to be HIGHER?
I find that baffling- do you think project fear would be as successful next time round or the Yes campaign less able to increase the vote through a massive grassroots campaign?
And what about Wings- can you imagine a future ref where Stu will sit on his hands when the Wee Blue Book is crying out to be rewritten, printed and distributed in vast numbers.
Do you think Brexit and all the upheaval and uncertainty involved would play in any other way than being a massive boost for a Yes vote?
I am not sure I really understood or agreed with anything in your post but there we are. G’night
As someone on here said in this thread or a previous one getting indy supporters to sign a declaration supporting indy is a plan. My son and I signed one online before the indyref but my daughter-in-law signed it at the Buchanan Steps as part of Generation Yes (under 30 I think). We need this to be widespread where people can sign it at street stalls, SNP shops, polling stations, even supermarkets and in places like Braehead, Buchanan Galleries and similar throughout the country.
Even some of our indy-supporting pensioners can take it to local sheltered housing and care homes.
If people have to put in their full postal address and NI number it shouldn’t be too difficult to verify authenticity.
Once there is over half the electorate signed up there is nothing Westminster can do to stop it.
I’m 65 and have wanted this since I was 17 – I don’t just want to die in an independent Scotland, I want to live in one too so that I can see my children, and especially my grandchildren, reap the benefits.
Legerwood says:
“I think you need a much, much bigger groundswell for YES than 60%.”
If we win IndyRef2 by 60:40 that would certainly do nicely by anyone’s standard.
The polls are at 50:50. A lot is going to a happen – possible failure of the Scotland Bill because WM want a fiscal arrangement which erodes our grant, clarity that devolution has gone as far as it can, Trident renewal, EU ref, more Tory madness, more Labour disintegration – all these will shift people to Yes, not No.
Perhaps most importantly, there is no campaign for Indy right now, however there is certainly an anti Indy/anti Scotland campaign underway. With this asymmetrical situation, Yes seems to be creeping up. When Yes2 begins there will be another shift to Yes.
Indy is coming, and coming soon.
Far enough into thread now that this shouldn’t be too O/T…
WOS Twitter feed today (12 hours ago) – retweeted Tommy Ball claiming to have message from SSP Secretary asking for the power to expel members ‘who do not sufficiently back RISE’.
Has anyone else seen this document, or heard anything about it?
@Tam Jardine
It’s possible Sturgeon is sending “SNP sources” out to bowl a few googlies, and then she would come out to bowl straight down the middle. Well, cricket is great on a sunny Sunday afternoon around a typical English green with 2 or 3 inns around it but enough of those analogies.
I think 60% is unlikely to happen in a poll, it would need the focus of a Referendum to get that – or more. 55% is achievable in a poll, perhaps even within a month or two.
But triggers can’t be restricted just to a possible EU event, Independence isn’t just about that. Other triggers would be the fiscal framework with all the failed negotiations exposed to public view, further reduction of Smith by the House of Lords, or Cameron seriously undermining the Constituion by, for instance, going direct to councils with immigrant spying – or suchlike. Or more reductions in Barnett.
In fact there are several triggers which could not only change public opinion, but be enough for a Referendum. The manifesto has to cover all of them, what’s said outside that even by Sturgeon is just words, spoken on a chat show.
@Still Positive (11.20) –
🙂
Hear hear.
Still positive/ Ian B. Yes, I have mentioned this a few times before on various threads. Pre Indy ref we were signing up loads of people for the Yes declaration, sheets and sheets of names every da, all sent off to Hope St. Where have have all these names and addresses gone? That forms the basis of the pro indy declaration.
Wobbly Abacus! Shoogly Pegs!
SLAB have blundered onto great big deep puddle of quick sand!
And I don’t see anyone rushing to their rescue.
@ Ian Brotherhood
I assume you’ve looked at this: link to tommyballgovan.blogspot.co.uk ?
I was more confused after I’d read it than before, so it may not help.
@Still Positive
Hear hear. I think a few have mentioned that idea including me. The LibDems came up with this idea but for the purpose of having a referendum, i.e. couldn’t ahve one without say a million signatures.
Well thanks for the idea LibDems, now let’s make it more useful and have it pro-Independence, not pro-Referendum!
@Ian Brotherhood
Good luck, keep calm and carry on! F*** ’em all.
For what it’s worth all we need is 50% + 1.
Waiting for any figure higher is just pointless and self defeating.
Either you want Independence or you don’t, it’s that simple.
@Alan Mackintosh 11.47
Pre Indy ref we were signing up loads of people for the Yes declaration, sheets and sheets of names every da, all sent off to Hope St. Where have have all these names and addresses gone?
Everything will have been shredded and deleted. All the names and details collected were provided to Yes Scotland and therefore nobody else can use them.
@JLT
“She has stated that 60% is her preferred basemark for calling one.”
No, she hasn’t.
That 60% figure, came from a BBC report naming “senior SNP sources”, and has to be taken in context, with election tactics aiming for No voters to back the SNP in the short term.
Putting an actual 60% figure in any manifesto would be absolutely IDIOTIC.
As mentioned, 30% say they will never vote for independence, so getting almost everyone else on board before a campaign even starts would be completely unrealistic. People get used to the status quo in ‘peacetime’
If there is any mention of 60%, I can see the party splitting in 2, or a campaign to elect a new leader, as it would signify Nicola has given up on independence and is happy enough with the day job.
I would be very suspicious of SNP members putting that figure about.
@crazycat / @Ian Brotherhood
Good writer that Tommy Ball, funny but makes the point.
@Alan Mackintosh 11.47
Pre Indy ref we were signing up loads of people for the Yes declaration, sheets and sheets of names every da, all sent off to Hope St. Where have have all these names and addresses gone?
Everything will have been shredded and deleted. All the names and details given were to Yes Scotland and therefore nobody else can use them.
Ian Brotherhood @ 11.29
So glad you agree with me. Total respect for you especially re the National crossword on a Monday – can usually finish it but there are some Scottish names for things I have never heard of (can usually work it out if an anagram but not always). Come originally from deepest Lanarkshire but have lived in West Dunbartonshire most of my life.
Just goes to show that there are ‘local names’ for some things.
My late husband used to say he only knew some words through me and some of my school friends.
Great too that the National is giving us some of our culture.
Louis B. Argyle, Tam (as always), Still Positive and many others:
Yes, we have to keep the faith, and our day is definitely coming!
I too have wanted Independence for Scotland all my life. My mum and dad campaigned for it long before me and my children got involved too.
I really do believe we are nearly there!
I watch the SNP with awe. In the face of the entire power of the British Government and all their cronies, the SNP team stride forward resolutely and steadily. I trust their judgement and am looking forward to seeing their next move.
We ALL have our part to play, wherever and whenever we can =)
@crazycat –
Thanks. I hadn’t seen that. TBH, I didn’t even know Tommy Ball had a blog.
If what he says is true? Outrageous and indefensible. Can’t speak for anyone else in the SSP, but I’ll jump rather than be pushed.
We’ll see…
A lot of folk are getting distracted from the main event.
Whatever about the EU referendum, it could go either way. It’s not in Scotland’s gift. It would be nice if the Britnatz did a Trump with Europe – but it’s not the main event. Same with Indyref2. Nicola has already made it clear that Scotland will decide when the next election will be – so don’t get distracted.
The main even is to win the scottish election this year and the local elections next year, thereby dismantling much of the Unionist Apparatus of power on the ground.
Learn from Ireland. Take the councils, win the overwheming majority of MP’s, win the Scottish Government again, and slowly withdraw consent. It would be impossible for the English elite to try for a partition of the country as they have no militia in place and Scottish Tories have a severe lack of armed loyalists gangs to disrupt democracy.
Sometimes the boring approach is best. Win this election, the locals next year. And the finance and infrastructure of the Unionist parties is shattered.
Govern diligently in the interest if the Scottish people first at National and local government level and the people will stay with you. What will the 3 Tory parties have to offer that is better?
Get your canvassing clothes cleaned, buy a second set. break in a new pair of canvassing shoes. Find out which area near you needs the most help. Can you schedule your holidays 8 or ten weeks or more before the election when the formative work in every area will need to be done in the run up to these two elections? Make sure your step-ladder is safe enough for use (I had to retire mine after the last election from over-use. It’s currenly strapped against a tree in the garden for the sons tree house). Try not to fall out with people who are broadly YES. Devote love and attention to every NO you meet trying to emphathise with their outlook and remember we need >50% and the little old lady you are talking to could be the one.
Win the elections, wipe out electorally 80% of the old voices of National self-scorn.
It will become increasingly difficult for the BBC to find sympathetic voices to interview. Not all journalists are Knaves – the reality of Scotland is harder to ignore after every election.
@Legerwood says:
“There also seems to be a sub-text whereby people would prefer to walk away from the SNP jeapordising the SNP’s chance of winning the GE for Holyrood and thus leave the people of Scotland to the tender mercies of the other parties.”
Independence is the main reason the SNP exists.
They do a good job at Holyrood, but if they ever lose focus on independence, or put unrealistic obstacles in the way with stupid poll targets, I would lose all interest and I suspect many others would be the same.
To be honest, it doesn’t make much difference to me who is running a devolved parliament with limited powers if there is no chance of progress towards becoming a real nation state.
Patience and timing is one thing and I am happy with a gradualist approach myself, but they need to keep a sense of direction towards the goal.
The last thing we want is for SNP politicians to turn into the old Labour mob .. happy just to remain in power for the sake of it.
Wingers may have seen the news item that Naomi Eisenstadt has published a report urging the SG to end the Council Tax Freeze.
It looks to me, personally, that the appointment of Naomi Eisenstadt as the, “Independent Adviser on Poverty and Inequality”, may be Nicola Sturgeon’s first, and only, mistake to date. Naomi Eisenstadt, was appointed to provide independent scrutiny of Scottish Government policies.
While Naomi Eisenstadt, is an acknowledged expert on the impact poverty has on children and has become the First Minister’s independent adviser on poverty and inequality with the aim of recommending actions needed to tackle poverty and holding the Scottish Government’s performance to account, I have always had grave doubts about her loyalties from previous associations. Including Oxford University, The Labour Party and the UK Civil Service.
Ms Eisenstadt, is a senior research fellow at the University of Oxford and a trustee of, “Save the Children”.
However, after spending several years working, first in nurseries and then in management positions in children’s charities, Naomi became the first director of the UK Labour Government’s, “Sure Start Unit”, with responsibility for early education, childcare, parenting policy, and extended schools.
She then spent a year as the chief adviser on children’s services to the Labour UK Government before acting as director of the Labour Government’s, “Social Exclusion Task Force”. She had a leading roll in the publication of, “Think Family”. This was a series of Labour Government policy proposals on the interaction of parent circumstances on their children’s outcomes. She also spent a year as the Labour Secretary of State’s Chief Adviser on Children’s Services.
Now it seems she has, earlier this week, published a report urging the Scottish Government tp end the Council Tax Freeze in 2017/2018. How very convenient for the London Labour in Scotland accounting Unit who, via COSLA, are making claims that Labour Controlled Councils are going to defy the freeze and raise the Council Tax by as much as 18%. They have not yet stated if that 18% is after taking account of the loss of the Scottish Governments extra grants originally granted for councils who froze the Council Tax. Knowing Labour of old I would not be at all surprised if they had the brass neck to imagine they could raise Council Tax and still expect the compensation for freezing it.
Anyone share my doubts?
@Still Positive –
🙂
Thanks! Glad you enjoy them.
If it helps at all, most of the Scots words I use are taken from the Alexander Warrack Scots Dialect Dictionary – I got it, many years ago, in what was then called ‘Bargain Books’, for £2.99!
I suppose, now, the closest equivalent would be that shop ‘The Works’, although I don’t recall seeing the Warrack volume in there, not recently anyway.
Hoots the noo!
I would seriously suspect anyone saying that we need much more than 60% to contemplate another referendum is not one of us.
And why is it always suggested that those on the losing NO side after a YES vote would be any more distressed and more deserving of anybody’s sympathy than those of us facing the disaster of a NO vote.
GIRUT
As chic McGregor pointed out above it will only be the unionists doing cartwheels if there is no commitment to indyref2.
Trying to please the Nawbags at the expense of pissing of many of your own supporters doesn’t strike me as being very tactically aware.
Funnily enough, my adult children did not know that I supported an independent Scotland before I met their father.
Three of them, who had the vote, voted YES, although one did it at the last minute – he couldn’t vote against his country.
Youngest son was voting YES even although he didn’t know about the McCrone Report and his wife did her own independent research and came to the same conclusion – she was in our YES shop with my grandson on the days she didn’t work.
I can honestly say that in the Yes shop and in the SNP shop we have all worked as a team to fold leaflets etc. even the Greens were with us in the SNP shop before GE 2015.
FIRST Minister Nicola Sturgeon and Scottish Conservative Party leader Ruth Davidson have been widely considered for some time to be ladies of prominence who have made a considerable imprint in society.
However, it’s only today the political pair have been recognised by Debrett’s 500, the annual report which lists “the most influential, inspiring and high achieving individuals across Britain”.
And while the inclusion of the Scottish politicians in the society list may seem rather late, Prime Minister David Cameron has again failed to make the cut, with his party colleagues George Osborne and Boris Johnson instead beating him to it.
link to archive.is
Been away all day today so just catching up…bumped into the currant bun in John Lewis in Glasgow but she clocked my SNP + YES metal badge and we exchanged silent sneers.
I was toffed up in my best too. 🙂
Good poll with Kezia in the doldrums catch it all in the morning.
Robert Peffers, no can’t say I’ve heard or read a clear explanation of the 18% from Moray Council. I didn’t hear them explain either what will happen next year?
In fact, it makes you wonder why all the Labour Councillors who are in charge of these councils aren’t lobbying Kezia to put council tax reform in their manifesto? There’s an election coming up , an ideal opportunity for one of Kezias new fresh ideas.
Let’s see, what they come up with? land valuation, ground valuation , revaluation?
I don’t know about other councils but mine is like a rabbit caught in the headlights.
If it improves the town centre( which is dying on its feet) the SNPbad might get the credit so we can’t do that.
Instead, we’ll just charge ridiculously high rents ( except for the charity shops) ridiculously high parking charges and kill it off completely but we will have a fab new Council office, although with all the services they’re proposing to cut , what they’re going to oversee , God knows.
Perhaps that the Labour plan? Lose the depts for meals on wheels, shopping , libraries etc but expand for the big council tax returns ?
Vision , new ideas, nah just charge the locals more it’s what they’ve always done.
@Ian Brotherhood says: 25 January, 2016 at 12:48 am:
and @Still Positive –
Perhaps the most handy little book for Scots words is the, “Scots-English English-Scots Dictionary”.
Hardcover, small enough for a pocket and Published by Lomond Books
ISBN 0-947782-26-5
I have the, “CSD”, (Concise Scots Dictionary), too but as this gives the Scots words and their meanings in English it is fine if you know the Scots word you need but if you don’t you will have a hard job finding it.
Whereas, in the wee one, you can look up the English word for the Scottish equivalent if you are stuck writing a Scots text. Likewise if you come across a Scots word you don’t know you can look it up.
With the larger CSD you get a fuller explanation, derivation and origin but you have to know the Scots word first.
When I bought the wee dictionary, around 1998/9 it cost £7.99 and its been worth its weight in gold.
Legitimate question:-
Does Ian Murray MP OWS, get paid by the BBC for this guff?
Feast your eyes on this…
link to londonfreelance.org
The trouble is the BBC are more slippery than an eel bathed with WD40, KY jelly, and Vaseline. They refuse the vast majority of Freedom of Information requests.
It really does add insult to injury that many of us have to pay this rancid organisation who jail women fro non payment of TV Licence whilst the BBC have employed sex pests, paedophiles and rapists.
@Molly says: 25 January, 2016 at 1:44 am:
“Robert Peffers, no can’t say I’ve heard or read a clear explanation of the 18% from Moray Council. I didn’t hear them explain either what will happen next year?”
I believe this is a concerted Labour Party bluff. The sheer madness of it is on a par with the use of PPP/PPI finance.
I commented upon this before – the Local Councils get most of their funding from Scottish Government Grants , from local Business rates and for various charges for council services. For example the householder gets bins emptied, without extra charges than the Council Tax, but Business’ pays for the service. Builders and Contractors pay for Landfill Dumping and so on. Then there is charges for council car park, use of sports and other leisure facilities.
Council tax only provides a tiny percentage of funding in well run councils and those councils with the highest Council Tax obviously have the lowest percentage provided by SG grant.
The thing is Labour have a massive majority on COSLA and COSLA were right in there with the PPP/PPI finance schemes that crippled Scottish Councils and will continue to cripple them for decades to come.
My guess is this advisor Professor is a dyed in the wool labourite and is backing COSLA to the hilt but I still think it is a bluff. However, Labour may think they have nothing to lose anyway as they are on the way out and may stop the freeze just to be nasty.
I of course accept 50% + 1but the campaign must start this time well into the positive range. What was annoying me was those holding a gun to Nicola Sturgeon’s head.to go at any support level.
My gut feeling was that these people are not quite what they pretend.
@Ian Brotherhood
Good grief, I’ve got the same book, tartan dustcover and all, also bought from Bargain Books I remember.
@Robert Peffers
I had my doubts a week ago when she made what to me was a political anti-universal benefit statement about fuel payments, the same I’ve seen from Lamont and the Tories. Here it is again in the Herald today, the SNP turned it down:
“Ms Eisenstadt, who warned Ms Sturgeon that tackling poverty meant taking “tough decisions”, said yesterday that it was “wrong” that better-off older people like herself received the benefit when the money could instead be invested on those in greater need. ”
If she was genuine she’d work within the ethos of the SNP, one of its outstanding policies, universal benefits. If people have paid in via taxation, they’re just as entitled as those that really need it – and it’s far cheaper to administer, less overheads on giving it out. Like free prescriptions which saves the NHS money, rather than costing it as people don’t bother and then become more expensive to treat later.
Agree with misgivings around Ms Eisinstadt.
Nicoal Sturgen was reported as saying that Ms E had been appointed for her independent opinion, which she gave, but NS did say that she would consider E’s findings and recommendations, not necessarily take them.
In any event, Council Tax reform will take time to consider and debate before any meaningful changes should happen. Just another example of SLAB stupid. And spiteful.
From the National: “THE SNP will be “slaughtered” if its Holyrood election manifesto does not contain a commitment to a second independence referendum, a leading figure in the party has said.” [unnamed MP – a he not a she]
That’s a bit more like it, and has put a smile on my face. I was beginning to think I’d side-slipped into an alternative brain-free universe after Wishart’s strange prattling.
Despite that I expect an article will aRISE on BC, real soon now.
“Responding to the debate, a SNP spokesman said: “The SNP will set out its position in its manifesto which is yet to be finalised.”
When “the SNP” think about it, they should remember that it’s always advisable to add concentrated acid to water, rather than the other way around.
The BBC give far to much airtime to Labourcwho are in truth a minority party. Ian Murray is the sole Labour MP in Scotland and what he says counts for nothing.
@ Robert Peffers,
I too, have the Lomond dictionary. Also the ‘Gaelic-English, English-Gaelic’ version , from the same date. (1998). Invaluable, even for a Doric speaker!
Obtained both at about £5 each, I think, from a Deeside Tourist Information office.
My emigrant brother-in-law, here on holiday from Tasmania some years ago, was so impressed with them he took copies back for use in the library where he worked.
Alan Macintosh
“Where have have all these names and addresses gone? That forms the basis of the pro indy declaration.”
I would be willing to bet they’re here!
link to tinyurl.com
Call me Dave
I know I’m going to regret asking this but, currant bun?
A merry Burns morning to ye all, get in amongst it!
Have a great day Scotland 😉
I have Collins Gem Scots dictionary,
Nae bad.
Onwards
That 60% figure, came from a BBC report naming “senior SNP sources”, and has to be taken in context, with election tactics aiming for No voters to back the SNP in the short term.
Putting an actual 60% figure in any manifesto would be absolutely IDIOTIC.
You’re reading too much into what I said, mate. No, she hasn’t ‘actually said’ 60%, but we all know that quietly, the SNP are looking at 60% as the possible trigger point.
And as my comment also stated, ‘By holding back and not saying yea or nay, Nicola is cleverly trying not to upset either camp. That means she is not declaring her hand but holding back.
Furthermore, and as stated, there will be no 2nd Referendum unless the circumstances are correct. And the nearest chance of another one will revolve around England taking us out of the EU.
You too Cactus!
O/T links
link to digitaljournal.com
link to snp.org
link to nicholaswilson.com
link to linkis.com
O/T links
debrett-500-most-influential-politicians
link to archive.is
link to loucollins.uk
link to rt.com
link to blacklistednews.com
The air time given by the English Propaganda to Slab must be absurdly disproportionate to their support in Scotland.
They have one of 59 MPs but get around 60% of all air time to my estimations.
Would 20% be a more reasonable figure as SNP are the elected government here, so should get the 60% exposure.
Labour shouldn’t get any more time than Tory, Liberal, Green, or RISE, so maybe 10% would be fair?
The Beeb know that we just don’t do Tory so they force as much Labour guff as is possible as they are the only slight glimmer
of opposition to our SNP Government.
Morning all! I love having those longer days again more vitamin ‘D’ etc. 🙂 Anyhoo!
Currant Bun! Ah… Polite name I call Margaret Curran.
Forgot to add this link.
Oil and the guessing game. There is a lot of chat here on various subjects including the black stuff …
link to bloomberg.com
@Ronnie says: 25 January, 2016 at 6:23 am:
“I too, have the Lomond dictionary. Also the ‘Gaelic-English, English-Gaelic’ version , from the same date. (1998). Invaluable, even for a Doric speaker!”
Indeed, Ronnie. I was brought up by my well educated grand parents on a farm. They spoke well educated Lallans while the many farm workers, (and farming then was still labour intensive), all spoke a bit rougher dialect of Lallans.
I never actually heard English spoken until I went to the village school.
The thing was that as soon as I learned to read I could pick up a book or article by, for example, R. L. Stevenson and understand it but would still struggled with standard English.
Having said that I wasn’t long in learning, the foreign to me, English Language. Most Scots don’t realise there is a big difference between the real Scottish language and Standard Scottish English.
The former is a language in its own right and with its own dialects, (such as Lallans or Doric). It is at least as old as English, while the latter, Scottish Standard English, is a dialect of Standard English.
Here, just for you, is a great Scottish insult to use for those, particularly younger, know-it-all upstarts we all so often meet.
The word has two meanings and, like many other Scots words, must be used in context.
Knapdarloch
1. a lump of hardened dung or dirt or matted hair hanging from the coat, or hair, of an animal.
2. A contemptuous term for an undersized, dirty, cheeky person.
Isn’t the Scots language a great and very descriptive language?
cockers on the telegraph seems to be slipping between reality and some kind of parallel universe, an article so garbled and incoherent this morning it suggests he is either drunk or having a nervous break down….possibly both
Kezia seems in good humour, obviously heartened by her pal Murray’s interview yesterday.
link to archive.is
Pete Wishart looking for a reason to show commitment to the Indy cause.
youtube.com/watch?v=mkcKQmr7kRc
My first ever link after 4 years on here so don’t know if it works. Maybe someone can fix it if it doesn’t.
@schrodingers cat says: 25 January, 2016 at 9:33 am
“cockers on the telegraph seems to be slipping between reality and some kind of parallel universe, an article so garbled and incoherent this morning it suggests he is either drunk or having a nervous break down….possibly both”
Isn’t that what used to be described in WWI as, “SNAFU”?
SNAFU = Situation Normal All F*#=ed Up.
Just think of a number then double it seems to be the Philosophy of The Labor Party.
Cadogan Enwright @ 12.41 am.
First class assessment C.E. I can only speak for our constituency, where over the last few years, as a result of very hard work put in by our campaign team, we have transformed a former Labour stronghold, into an S.N.P/Yes voting area. And for the first time ever, we managed to get an S.N.P, M.P elected last year.
We have been chapping doors for the last four months, and that will continue unabated until May, 5th, in the hope we can increase our hard working M.S.Ps majority.
Looking further ahead, the target is of course to try to make further inroads at next years council elections, and get rid of what is at the moment a Labour controlled council.
So steady progress, and I can only hope that with continued erosion of the unionist vote, that it will eventually lead us to our goal. an independent Scotland.
@Bill Fraser says: 25 January, 2016 at 9:53 am:
“Just think of a number then double it seems to be the Philosophy of The Labor Party.”
You are probably right, Bill, but I think it goes further than that. Think of a number, double it, and if the BBC runs with the story use same number again … and again … and again … and – Ad Infinitum.
I see the Herald is reheating cauld porridge again.
My short visit made me sad for a once mighty newspaper and the piece by Mr Bell is still there on line with a great photograph of himself,the last journalist of Scotland.
@JLT, waiting for a percentage like that before a campaign even begins seems crazy to me – even as a tactic to persuade No voters to vote SNP for Holywood.
It could turn into a political weapon – like ‘once in a lifetime’.
We have enough obstacles in our path already with the one- sided media, and a desire by many not to offend anyone by governing ourselves.
If we get to a winnable position where we could reverse the 2014 result and achieve 55% I would grab it with both hands.
Many people will never be convinced until after independence when it becomes the new status quo.
@Alex Beveridge says: 25 January, 2016 at 10:09 am in reply to Cadogan Enwright @ 12.41 am.
” … I can only speak for our constituency, where over the last few years, as a result of very hard work put in by our campaign team, we have transformed a former Labour stronghold, into an S.N.P/Yes voting area.”
Observation of political activation seems to show that hard work needs to be complemented by perseverance. By that I mean the hard work is often out of all proportion to the results obtained.
You graft away for ages making tiny gains and suffering many setbacks. Slowly you notice a slow progress amidst the gain/loss figures.
Then you reach a tipping point and suddenly there is a great surge forward as you go, “over the top”, and take a big lead.
Thing is that even then you cannot sit back and expect to have people continue to vote for your party without the hard work continuing.
If you don’t believe me look at Labour from 1945 to the present. Their tipping point was 1945 and they are now thrashing about wondering what they have done wrong. The answer is they took their eye off the ball, took the voters for granted and forgot they had to maintain the hard work.
Tomic vs Murray:-
4-6 4-6 2-2
Lets hope Andy doesn’t now get an urgent phone call from his wife back home in Scotland.
@ Bugsbunny, the picture of Ian Murray whipping a bunch of flooers out of his arse made my morning. 🙂
@TJenny from about 10.17 or thereabouts
link to bbc.co.uk
Typing about Scots dictionaries…
I’ve been using this online resource for years – ‘The Dictionary of the Scots Language’. It can be found at:-
link to dsl.ac.uk