There Will Be Cuts
One of the most insidious aspects of the Unionist and media attack on independence is the constant refrain of “Scotland will be poorer after independence, so there will have to be cuts to services or tax increases. Cuts or tax rises. Cuts or tax rises. If you vote Yes, do you want CUTS OR TAX RISES?”
Of late, it’s often been used as a corollary of a new plea: “Oh, it’s not that we’re against independence, but why won’t Alex Salmond admit that there will be downsides? Why won’t he be honest about the risks and challenges? If only he’d admit that it won’t be a land of milk and honey we might listen.”
While its prevalence is new, the actual line is a tired old straw man – neither the First Minister nor the wider Yes campaign has EVER pretended Scotland would suddenly enter a fairytale utopia where everything was perfect and cash flowed from taps.
But for the avoidance of doubt, as advocates of a Yes vote, let’s put something on the record in black and white: There Will Be Cuts.
There are two pillars to the dishonesty constantly perpetuated by the No camp and its allies in the press. The first, of course, is that there will still be MASSIVE cuts to services if Scotland votes No. The UK government isn’t even halfway through its austerity measures, with a huge slab of cuts still to land after the 2015 election no matter whether the Tories or Labour occupy Downing Street.
So the implication that only a Yes vote will bring financial pressures – that independence means cuts while No means keeping everything the way it is now – is enormously disingenuous, and so transparently so that it’s a crude insult to the intelligence of readers, viewers and listeners.
The second aspect is something we’ve touched on before, and it’s the fallacy that an independent Scotland’s finances can be calculated on the basis of a devolved Scotland’s finances. There’s no point becoming independent in the first place just to do everything the same as it’s done now.
So in order to save money, an independent Scotland WILL make cuts. We don’t know which party will be elected as Scotland first sovereign government in three centuries, but the one that’s leading in the polls at the moment is the SNP, and we already know their position with regard to planned spending:
– £800 million a year saved on defence
Not just Trident, but all of the other grossly excessive expenditure currently attributed to the Scottish budget in order that the UK can “punch above its weight on the world stage” by going around bombing brown people. Scotland’s current nominal defence budget is £3.3bn a year. The SNP plans to spend £2.5bn. That frees up a big fat lump of money every single year.
– £50m a year saved on Westminster
Scotland’s contribution to running the Houses Of Parliament. Not any more.
– £200m a year saved on HS2
The UK government’s latest figure for the cost of slightly faster rail journeys between London and Birmingham is £42.6bn. If we make the (enormously optimistic) assumption that the project comes in on budget, Scotland’s population share of the cost will be £3.6bn. HS2 is due to open in 2032, so divided by 18 years that’s £200m a year.
That’s just what we thought of in 30 seconds, and we’ve already found more than a BILLION pounds in savings in Scotland’s budget every single year. That’s a lot of libraries kept open, a lot of nurses kept in work, a lot of infrastructure projects built, and not a penny of tax rises.
September’s referendum isn’t a choice between cuts and no cuts. Both Scotland and the UK run a deficit (although that’s not actually inherently catastrophic – pretty much every nation on Earth except Norway and Switzerland does), and could do with trimming their budgets.
It’s a choice between WHERE you want there to be cuts. Do you want to save the money from the schools budget or the nuclear-submarine budget? Do you want to dump care for the elderly, or a ridiculous vanity rail project that will benefit almost nobody? Do you want your money used to build hospitals, or to rent them from private companies carving off obscene profits?
Our numbers are just the SNP’s ideas. As for what Labour or the Tories would do if they governed an independent Scotland, you’ll have to ask them, because they haven’t told anyone. But the figures above illustrate just a fraction of what’s possible.
So yes, there will be cuts, because being in the UK for 300 years has left us in a mess. The question Scots will have to answer in five months’ time is what they want less of – books or bombs, medicine or missiles, wisdom or wars.
Good stuff.
A simple addition to that billion would be the tax raised in Scotland which goes south and is never seen again.
Cutting the flow of oil revenues to London would be a good cut to make.
It would be quite interesting making a table of what we would save leaving the union ( add Price of Hinkley Nuclear for savings to energy bills) and extra costs ( New PCs for tax if any required, which would be a one off basically)
A table of that kind could be used as an immediate counter arguement to anyone on the no side shouting about cuts/taxes for Independence.
Excellent post.
Another thought, we pay 3 Billion for defence, we get only approx 1.8 Billion back spent in Scotland so there is 1.2 Billion missing straight away.
The 2.5 Billion proposed for Scotland will actually see basically all the money spent in Scotland, so we are actually seeing an increase in spending in Scotland by 700 million while decreasing the spending by 500 million.
Cutting those egregious Lords off at the knee would be a good cut to make.
Spot on – especially the bit about the Unionist parties’ silence when it comes to choices if there’s a YES.
Future English PM Bojo Johnson said 2 months ago and I quote-
‘A pound spent in Croydon is far more of value to the country than a pound spent in Strathclyde’
What ho!
Brilliant again Rev, well done ( by the way, don’t let all this praise go to your head ! heh heh heh )
‘Course if there’s no currency union, as they keep threatening, we’ll be cutting debt repayments. 😉
There will also be job cuts ……… in Whitehall, UK armed forces and such UK institutions as the BBC, with thousands of civil servant jobs, Scottish Defence Force jobs and media jobs being created in an independent Scotland.
link to youtube.com, “you’d create more jobs in Strathclyde by investing London” but he’s not asked why though, as per.
Spot on, Rev.
Ah, big Tory cuts to come. I can beleive that. But, have no fear, we still are ok voting NO, coz in 2015, Labour will be back in and …….
and……..
……..Oh Dear!
Ah, big Tory cuts to come. I can believe that. But, have no fear, we still are ok voting NO, coz in 2015, Labour will be back in and …….
and……..
……..Oh Dear!
Today’s RT Keizer Report is must see, very positive pro-indy comments from the hosts, especially this: indy Scotland would have the highest GDP in the world. Nice!
Thanks to the power of Wings Over Scotland and to the generosity of you fellow Wingers we are well on our way to making our short film ‘Autumn Leaves’.
A massive high-five to each and everyone of you great folks for helping support and spreading the info for us, you don’t know how much it’s meant to all of us over here!!
And of course, it goes without say, a HUGE thanks to the great Rev Stu for his continued support of our project. Thanks Stu!!
To those who may be interested still and want to support us, it is a comedy/drama set on the night of the referendum and cast includes Sean Scanlan (Para Handy), Barbara Rafferty (Rab C. & Hamish MacBeth) and Carmen Pieraccini (River City).
You can read all about it here:
link to kickstarter.com
Many thanks to you all.
Every thing done for us down south will be done here. If we want to continue as before. Change will of course be our choice to make. More important. Jobs plus. Unemployment down. Tax take up. Vat comes to us. More money spent here means, more jobs, more tax paid. In fact a virtuous circle. the only limit is ourselves if we fail to grasp this golden opportunity.
This is just so clear and sensible.Why won’t the SNP or YES campaign print leaflets saying this sort of thing?
I noticed an excellent pro-independence Tweeter saying that the Tories are shrinking the state. This is actually true when it comes to the state which is of benefit to the ordinary taxpayer. It’s not true when in comes to the vast bloated government budgets spent on parasitic companies such as Atos and G4S, assorted PFI tapeworms. Not to mention the selling off for peanuts of state assets and services, which is actually a criminal offence if managers and directors were to do this to their own company’s shareholder assets in the private sector.
The British welfare state for the rich has never been so enormous. We’re a still paying the same level of taxes as we all did when Thatcher came to power. Nothing’s changed except much of the taxes get redistributed to the rich who invariably siphon off their risk-free profits into off-shore tax havens and its lost to our economy and never re-invested.
Some people just have to see things written down to believe them, so this is a great article to keep when they winge on that we can’t possibly afford Independence! Thanks Rev!
There are tons of things no-one is really calculating. On the downside, it means I’ve not seen anyone do any sums on how our balance of trade with rUK will look after independence. But there’s also been little discussion about the impact of creating a Scottish MoD, a Scottish DWP, a Scottish DVLA and more. The costs shouldn’t be massively more than we pay just now but will create thousands of jobs in Scotland. As someone else already pointed out, there will be increased defence spending in Scotland, which should have a wee effect. I’ve heard something about how VAT is calculated in the government accounts (it’s left out of GERS), and the negative spin that puts on the Scottish accounts. And of course, there’s the trick they’ve been using a lot regarding how the oil wealth is accounted for. Most of the comparisons we see are between iScotland (either with or, weirdly, without oil) and the current UK (with oil.) If we’re comparing the two, shouldn’t it be iScotland with oil vs. rUK without?
@ Heedtracker
Future English PM Bojo Johnson said 2 months ago and I quote- ‘A pound spent in Croydon is far more of value to the country than a pound spent in Strathclyde’
It’s a wonder he knows where Strathclyde is.
@) Kenny,
GERS do actually allocate Scotland’s share of VAT to Scotland. Lots of other things not included though – viz corporation tax of offshore cos.
O/T again, sorry, but here’s another great reason to vote no! You vill verk ze zero hours or you vill starve.
link to bbc.co.uk
Having our own DVLA, Scottish version of the BBC, MOD, etc etc will help to create jobs and keep the money spent in Scotland
Perhaps the biggest cut of all would be if the Osborne/Balls/Alexander troika really did stick to their daft ‘No to CU’ mantra. Then NO debt to service – but even if, as I’m sure even these numpties will realise, a CU must be negotiated, it is inconceivable that the Scottish team will accept anything like the share of debt servicing with which we are currently saddled – check out the Business for Scotland website for the details. Indeed esc ape from that and its accelerating growth is a good enough reason on its onw for voting YES
ton TJenny
Can’t be there at the Jolly on Friday but as it is being livestreamed so, fancy giving me an on-air smacker?
well as long as we dont cut our money that goes to the house of lords. i dont know how we would cope without our lords foulkesake and the others to keep us right, if we stop paying our hardearned to the house of lords i may vote no.
Don’t forget that most of the UK’s so-called “defence spending” is actually ”attack spending”. The money is spent on forces designed and equipped for power projection, which is a fancy term for the ability to conduct expeditionary warfare. It’s about being able to intimidate other nations and implement policy by means of force, or the threat thereof, in an area distant from its own territory.
An aircraft carriers and its fleet of planes is not defensive. It’s a way of creating a mobile airfield off the coast of a far away country.
The rest of the blue-water navy — frigates, destroyers, etc — is also not about defence. It’s about being able to attack other ships somewhere else in the world, and to defend to the aircraft carriers.
Same with Trident. It’s not about defence; it’s a device to incinerate another country, or several of them.
An independent Scotland doesn’t have to play that game. It can have genuinely defensive armed services, which are massively cheaper than a force designed to travel the globe picking fights.
The savings from a defensive stance are massive. It’s easy to make the mistake of thinking that the sums can be found by looking at Scotland’s share of the military budget, but that’s only the start. Many of the actual military operations are not paid out of the so-called “defence budget” (which really covers only standing costs), but out of contingency funds. Huge amounts of research funding are diverted to military objectives. A significant proportion of the diplomatic budget goes in support of the military machine and ist operations.
Scottish independence for me is for the long term. There are uncertainties after a Yes and there are uncertainties after a No. If we get a yes vote one thing is certain, Scotland will be governed from Scotland and not from the archaic institutions that form the UK government. We will be able to co-operate with our neighbouring countries but, more importantly, we will also be able to alter the terms of that co-operation when and if necessary. In the short term it may not be easy but the for long term YES is the direction that gives me real hope for the coming generations the people of Scotland.
This isn’t even beginning to scratch the surface – whisky, tends to be credited to the port where it is shipped from (Southampton?) and VAT is added from where a companies HQ is (ie for almost all the big companies, Tesco, John Lewis, Argos etc it is generally England.
I believe that if they vote no then the state pension will be means tested in the next term of office. If you have a good private pension then you will be up shit creek.
The state pension is the highest cost to the treasury and common sense tells me that it will be means tested
BtP – ah, who can refuse a panda. 🙂
What about fuel duty, tobacco and alcohol duty, DVLA and other licensing fees – plus all the jobs and income tax to go along with any agencies that manage them? BBC licence fee? Crown Estates? I think we will be shocked at the embarrassment of riches we will have post indy.
How about all the extra revenue which would remain in Scotland if it were Independent:
1) VAT on fuel – VAT on fuel purchases spent in Scotland’s filling stations (supermarkets and Oil Companies – which are registered outside Scotland) is NOT included in Scotland’s economic figures for revenue. The significant millions of this VAT would STAY in Scotland.
2) Companies registered in rUK spread their bad debts or supposed losses through their Scottish branches/organisations for tax avoidance
3)
I don’t expect my life to change dramatically – except for a greater sense of excitement at watching my country throw off the shackles to build a better life in the long term.
I want greater opportunities for my grand-chidren who will reap the real benefits of independence.
I also expect huge negative changes re state pension after a ‘no’ vote. In fact, I’m terrified of a ‘no’ vote as I believe we will be up the proverbial creek without the paddle or the boat.
We will also ‘cut’ our ‘public and common services costs’ which are attributed to Scotland but for what we don’t know…
BfS website refers in this;
businessforscotland.co.uk/westminster-charges-scotland-billions-of-pounds-in-service-costs/
link to businessforscotland.co.uk
I completely with earlier post that we should make a serious list of the savings Scotland would make. It could ally many fears of the undecided.
There are many, Crown Estate for one, passenger air duty for another, and more.
I’ve just watched this over on Munguin’s site. It is Kieran Hurley and his 25 reasons for voting YES. In my well recognised warped sense of thinking this video should be passed to every NO voter in Scotland. They should then be asked to produce their list of 25 reasons for voting NO. If they can not produce a list, and we all know the can’t, they should then admit they are wrong and agree to vote YES! 😛
link to tinyurl.com
Here is a lengthy but informative report Commissioned by the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament and the Scottish Trades Union Congress.
To summarise, the report demonstrates the inaccuracy of claims that upwards of 11,000 jobs would be lost to Scotland if Trident was not replaced and actually the £153million annual contribution by Scotland towards the £1.76 billion annual running costs would easily sustain the 1,536 direct and indirect civilian jobs and Scottish Navy personnel (currently servicing and staffing Trident in Scotland)through new infrastructure, technologies and investment being proposed for a new different Faslane site.
link to stuc.org.uk
Grousebeater @ 3:10pm
‘course Boris knows where Strathclyde is – this rather large person will frequent the HoL (Thomas Galbraith, 2nd Baron Strathclyde)
I think we should all go and buy some coos an bees just to prove them wrong 😉
Sorry I’m O’T again so soon but it appears there may be a wee campaign rising to get the Sunday Herald to produce T-shirts with Sunday’s front page on the front and the editorial on the back. 😉
“@WalesForYES: @newsundayherald can you sell tshirts with that frontpage on the front and the editorial on the back? You’d sell loads!”
We can cut the Scotland Office too.
We can cut our contribution to London’s new sewerage system.
We can cut our on-going tax breaks to Canary Wharf which had already had £7bn in tax incentives.
We can cut our funding to all the “national” museums and galleries in London.
There’s many more millions with just another 30 seconds thought.
@ free at 63 – Loving your gravatar. Hands up in the air with excitement and pockets full of jaffa cakes.
My 65th birthday 28th Sept and I decided a couple of years ago despite requests from Thailand and Uganda I would remain here in Scotland for our Vote. Like you the excitement is palpable and on voting day I will be conducting a real time commentary of one polling station.
There’s the other kinds of cuts in numbers of course –
Remember those ‘Proud Scots’ and affiliated nationalities + the Scottish Companies (?) who have vowed to leave and never to return after ‘Separashun’
Jobs, Jobs, Jobs !! Business will take up the shortfall make no mistake!!
Houses, Flats, Rentals !! Housing shortage ? Take your pick.
Bingo… “too poor” refuted in a nutshell.
Good job 🙂
Hinkley Point Nuclear power station Scottish subsidy ?
Londons cross rail system Scottish subsidy ?
2 Useless Air craft carriers Scottis subsidy ?
Re the Gers figures, I think for the Whisky VAT, Petrol Vat etc a estimate is made and added to Scotlands’ estimated income. So don’t lets get carried away.
There are things left out of Gers, a couple of years ago I went through the figures and seen that we pay our “Brit” share 8.3% of England/Wales prisons/Courts whilst also paying 100% of Scottish Courts/Prisons, same with Royal Family protection, and a few other things.
We are getting shafted on the Gers figures of that there is no doubt, but a reasonable estimate of VAT is probably counted.
As Kinivie reported Offshore Corp tax is not, I also think that some income taxes raised in Scotland for people who’s HQ’s are in England may not be on the Gers.
Several years ago somebody went through the Gers report forensically and discovered lots of stuff, some of which have since been rectified. Surely some Forensic Accountant could do the same for the last set of figures?
@Liquid Lenny
Also, I understand that all Scottish court fines revert to the Treasury so Scotland sees none of that.
We can save fortunes by not having a government spend untold billions on our behalf that we didn’t want spent on our behalf.
Major Bloodnok
We at Criminals for Independence like that one Major.
Here I go again.
For everyone, or should that be anyone, who has been wondering about the whereabouts of a certain Mr Darling well he is about to re-surface folks. 🙂
link to tinyurl.com
@Liquid Lenny
That someone was Niall Aslen and his work was “The Big Lie”.
Not a criticism, but I feel his efforts need rewarded by crediting him.
I remember reading his report several years ago, and though I have always supported Scottish independence, I gained massive ammunition for my arguments from his efforts.
The big short term Independence bonus will, I think, inevitably come out of the negotiations.
The property and moveable assets of the UK are huge, around a trillion I think from memory. Of course it includes a lot of military hardware. Much of this we won’t want. Since we paid for it, we need compensated.
Also Real estate like £100million property in Paris, even more in Hong Kong I believe. Washington etc etc.. We are due a share or this, probably as cash compensation. If they won’t agree during negotiations, then we just dock it from the debt we are willing accept.
My feeling is that we will be left, one way or another, with less initial debt. And that means proportionately less debt to be serviced. Which means more spare dosh.
@LiquidLenny.
All civil servants and CS pensioners pay their income tax to Cardiff so I would expect that would not be counted as Scotland’s income – though I do not know if there would be an estimate in GERs figures.
@Erchie (not Archie)- didn’t notice my Gravatar before! No jaffa cakes in the pockets. Will be my birthday 2 days after vote and I’m hoping it will be the best ever. Cheers.
Lesley-Anne says:
For everyone, or should that be anyone, who has been wondering about the whereabouts of a certain Mr Darling well he is about to re-surface folks.
This Craiglockhart event …. Is it a debate with Yes speakers too? Or is it just a BT presentation?
It would be good if Darling is going head to head with someone!
It will be a waste of time if just a roadshow.
The Great Obsfucation, Niall Aslen.
Well with reading.
link to electricscotland.com
@ Truth
Found this paper by Niall Aslen with a quick google.
link to scottishdemocraticalliance.com
Don’t know why people think that Scotland will be poorer, I have always thought that there is a very good reason for hiding Scots expenditure from the Scots and it wasn’t because we were poor.
One thing we can be definitely assured of is if we do remain in the UK we will be poorer and the poor who rely on welfare will be a lot poorer.
‘worth’ even.
Has Morag been around today?
link to bbc.co.uk
Note to self; always refresh before posting.
Looks like The Great Obfuscation is first and the SDA one a recent follow up.
@Kenny
@kininvie
Actually, although GERS do allocate a share of VAT to Scotland, it’s most likely that
Its only the VAT receipts of Scottish registered companies and that no account is provided for the billions spent in English registered companies, such as Tesco or Marks & Spencer.
All VAT from across the UK is currently processed in Southend and goes straight to treasury.
With independence, Scotland will need a VAT processing office to take all VAT receipts for companies trading in Scotland. Those companies that trade in Scotland, but have their accounting in England, will need to open up accounts offices in Scotland.
As well as the better known tax gatherers such as the DVLA, there will have to be a Scottish Civil Aviation authority to control the airspace over Scotland and the North Atlantic, and a setting up of a civil aircraft register. Plus there will be the need for a Maritime Registry.
The remaining part of the UK, England will experience a dip in its balance of trade as it will no longer be able to include Scottish export business, even if it has to transit via an English port or airport.
OT but interesting.
link to snp.org
galamcennalath says:
This Craiglockhart event …. Is it a debate with Yes speakers too? Or is it just a BT presentation?
It would be good if Darling is going head to head with someone!
It will be a waste of time if just a roadshow.
If you click the link gala you’ll see that Jim Eadie MSP will also be there. 😉
O/T If anyone feels the need to create huge posters made up of tiled A4 or A3 pages have some fun at link to rasterbator.net where you can do this for free 🙂
This is an excellent analysis and should be spread through out the nation at large , just how you get it out there puzzles me as not everyone reads online news, hope you succeed as all don’t knows need this info
I posted another committee meeting on WoS yesterday saying it was a stitch up. 5th
At last we have someone who is able to call them out.
link to itv.com
I’ll need to look out the whole thing later to get the context. But good on him.
Test2
Liquid Lenny
further to the expected revenues
Please see my comment regards current VAT attributed is possibly only for Scottish registered companies.
In addition another revenue stream is import Duty and VAT
Currently all imports into the UK pay duty and VAT direct to HMRC. This goes direct to treasury and will not be attributed in any way to Scottish traders, regards GERS.
With independence, any import coming through an English port will be treated as an ‘inter EU’ fiscal entry. That is the duty paid in England , but the VAT paid in Scotland. Or it could be treated as a ‘coastwise bond’ and the goods transhipped to Scotland for ‘local import clearance’ with Duty and VAT going to the Scottish treasury.
There will be a lot of technical changes as well as a lot of revelations, such as the balance of trade for Scotland, which contrary to what the unionists spout is not solely between Scotland and England, as mentioned earlier England will experience a dip in balance of trade, which currently is already a basket case
Posts disappearing, so this a part 1 of 4.
A wee follow up here
link to walesonline.co.uk
‘Commeth the hour commeth the MAN’ as the great English bard Shakespeare said.
Thank you so much for your relentless hard work and dedication in exposing this propaganda and placing it under the piercing glare of the spotlight of light & truth!
John McArdle
On behalf of
BlackTriangle
http://blacktrianglecampaign.org
We won’t need a Dept of State for whoever fills the space the BBC leaves behind. Not paying for fairie stories should save a few bob.
Whilst thinking about media, notice the Scotland Yet Post Production crowdfunding effort is a wee bit sluggish – still got a month to go though. If you want to help, here’s the link:
link to indiegogo.com
I take it the Rev. isn’t blocking me, so who is?
Though I agree with the wider message, please stop calling HS2 a vanity project.
@ CameronB Brodie says:
6 May, 2014 at 5:09 pm
I take it the Rev. isn’t blocking me, so who is?
God?
or GCHQ?
REV says (second last para above) – ‘As for what Labour and the Tories would do ….. you’ll have to ask them, because they haven’t told anyone.’ Of course not, their heads are buried in the sand, and the prospect of actually having to do some real hard work, shake off the shackles of their London masters (and that includes the political Scots who have chosen London as their preferred HQ), grab the thistle boldly and get down to running their country with real pride, is just too much. It’s far too easy for them at present, conditioned as they have been for generations, to let someone else make their decisions and throw them some crumbs to feed on. It’s pathetic when you think about it.
The FT last week stated that on the day of independence Scotland would become more prosperous than England instantly, due to our government having less debt and more income.
@Btty Boob
“We won’t need a Dept of State for whoever fills the space the BBC leaves behind. Not paying for fairie stories should save a few bob”
That doesn’t make any sense what so ever!
For a start, what do you mean by a ‘Dept of State’ The only one I know is the US Department of State, which is the US version of the Foreign office and Scotland will need a Foreign office
So what is that got to do with the BBC?
A future state broadcaster that takes over the running of the BBC in Scotland will still need to be financed from licence fee’s.
But the difference will be that a Scottish Broadcast Company will retain all the revenues and not live of the scraps and it will be free of any London tiktat that is currently the situation
Sorry should be Betty Boop, not Boob – Freudian slip 😉
Has someone mentioned that Chris Patten is standing down from the BBBC Trust?
just clocked it on the Guardian website.
Edward 5.26
Don”t know why you make the assumption that a Scottish Government would require a public broadcasting corp. It is quite feasible for a government to pay for air time on a commercial channel when it requires to make public service announcements.
Patten in resignation row with immediate effect.
Bias, Broadcaster in another stushie!
CBI , Couldn’t be involved!
Ah, I’ve got it now – after independence we get to keep the oil money and the whisky duty and then there’s no Trident costs and there’s no benefit payments to the House of Lardies!
Because of this, we become much poorer and taxes will have to rise Armageddon style!
I’m going back onto the fence!
Off topic I know but did anybody catch a bit af a news item on Radio Scotland just after 4 P.M. today? All I caught was a Welsh(?) MP had walked out of a committee because he thought ‘something’ was making a fool of the Scottish Government! Anybody get this?
I’d be too uncertain Bigdrone. Splinters, ken.
Bigdrone
It’s behind you up the thread!
Bigdrone 5.50
Here is a link to this story.
link to walesonline.co.uk
The question Scots will have to answer in five months’ time is what they want less of –
Westminster!
@Bigdrone Labour mp walks out of committee
link to theguardian.com
@ Bigdrone
Off topic I know but did anybody catch a bit af a news item on Radio Scotland just after 4 P.M. today? All I caught was a Welsh(?) MP had walked out of a committee because he thought ‘something’ was making a fool of the Scottish Government!
Worth searching out!
Joe Kane – I read something similar (probably by Pilger). He made the point that it is a fallacy to think that neo cons favour a small state. They only favour a small welfare state for poor people. However no public expense should be spared on military expenditure, state support for banks, and other ways of funnelling money from the masses to the wealthy.
As for where is Strathclyde? It is in the 1970s. The same place Boris gets his most up-to-date info on Scotland.
Radio saying Patten’s chucking it because of heart problems.
Better not send him that petition in case it finishes him off.
The Scottish economy has always lacked the Added Value to most of the products and natural resources, it’s similar to some of the African nations.
We export our goods to agents, they add their cut, pay the duty or taxes in their domain, sell on to another agent, they get a cut and so on.
We seriously need to sort out our infrastructure to deal with exports to maximise profit. Airports and Sea Ports will be crucial in attaining this, while we are at it our road transport will also need major upgrading as well as getting the latest technology into the remote areas.
Barbara Watson 6.05
“it”s similar to some of the African nations”.
Yes that”s us, third world country. Our profits are privatised and our debts are nationalised.
For all those decrying the GERS report you should read it with its methodology document which explains how the figures are arrived at. Income tax is not allocated by tax office but by post code and other means but not for all taxpayers, only about 1.6 million (I think) spread over the whole of the UK. The GERS report (although not 100% accurate) is the best estimate of our income and expenditure.
So I can joke but can’t be serious.
Jim Marshall 5.41
I’m not sure why you make the assumption that Scotland should not have a state broadcaster. Is Scotland not a normal country?
Why do you assume (incorrectly) that state broadcaster is purely for making ‘public service announcements’
Many countries across Europe have their own state broadcaster. Norway has theirs and despite only having a population about the same (slightly less) than Scotland’s manages to provide quite a wide and varied service across the country.
OT
Has anyone been following the VNB Donate page link to votenoborderscampaign.nationbuilder.com ?
The page has now been changed. Donors’ names and the time elapsed since their donations were listed and this showed very few donations. The list is not now visible.
I think the donated total started at about £140k and is now at £168K. My impression was that the the average donation must have been quite large given the apparently few donors …. unless the site organisers were drip feeding their own money into the pot to make the site appear more popular than it was.
I meant to save versions of this page to track no. of donors but I didn’t and now the facility has gone other than Google’s current cache [from 2 May showing total at £142k and only 10 donors].
Has anyone been keeping track of this donation page and the number of donors versus the donation total …. or am I the only sad person who thought of this.
Bobdog @4.67
Just print out copies and give to our no voting friends, colleagues and associates. I keep saying it but feel this is where the battle will be won or lost. It’s amazing to see the truth about the lies we’ve been fed for so long suddenly dawn on folks faces. They just need the information from a trusted source. That’s you.
@Grouse Beater says:
Paul Flynn welch labour mp walked out of committee meeting in parliament in protest after a spat with chairman. Stating the committee was a “stunt to embarrass the SNP and Scottish government.”
Edward 6.12
I am well aware that other countries have state broadcasters.This does not prove that they are beneficial. If the experience of the BBC is an example then they well be dangerous propaganda organisations who are incapable of honest and truthful reporting.
I will not be paying a tv licence in an independent Scotland.
I seem to have made up a new time scale with more than 60 secs in a minute. Maybe i’m on the wrong side ?!
Ian,
Still send it. It will be handled by vice-chairman Diane Coyle.
He resigned with immediate effect, so he is not there.
@ Graeme Doig
Blimey – can’t find Bobdog @ 4.67 – must be in a nearly parallel universe – only 60 minutes per hour in this one 🙂
@ Graeme D
Just beat me to it – you must have more minutes to play with than I do!
Jim Marshall
I think you are very confused, as your using the BBC as a past example.
The new broadcaster would not have any of the baggage that the current or past BBC has.
The new state broadcaster may have all the assets of the BBC, but it certainly will not carry on the same bias baggage. All that will be history and we will have a broadcaster that we can all be proud off
Papaox
Paul Flynn welch labour mp walked out of committee meeting in parliament in protest … stating the committee was a “stunt to embarrass the SNP and Scottish government.”
Just caught up with the incident.
An insider adds: the civil servant’s leaking of a (contrived) memorandum in support of the chancellor’s denial of a curreny union means that normal rules are relaxed (democratic strictures don’t count) because the stakes are so high,(keeping control of Scotland).”
(My comments in parenthesis)
Macandroid
Aye feels like that in my house tonight
News just in …
BBC Chairman to resign. (Cites ill health) Harrrumph!
Let there be cuts.
B.B.C. “Countryfile” in Jan. 2008. presented by John Craven on the Glendoe Hydro- Elec. Scheme built by Scottish and Southern Energy (S.S.E.)
Total Cost = £140 million.
Supplies 500,000 Homes and Businesses with Safe (non-Nuclear) electricity for 100 to 120 years.
Eleven times 500,000 = 2.5 million.
Plus Glendoe = 3 million homes and businesses.
Eleven times £140 million = £1.54 billion.
ALL these numbers freely supplied to our B.B.C. Employees by Scottish and Southern Energy representing 2008 prices.
Scotland has 2.23 million homes.
Less than 300,000 Businesses.
We could supply FREE elec. to our cash ravaged Pensioners in Winter. The annual threat of Hypothermia – gone.
Clegg and Cameron have spent £29 billion on wind turbines since 2010. £13 billion in Scotland.
Can someone tell me where the problem lies.?
Edward 6.35
I think you have a vested interest in broadcasting and this is why you wish to perpetuate the state ownership of broadcasting.I am in no way confused, nor have I made any assumptions as you stated earlier. I merely pointed out that a future Scottish Government may well opt out of state owned broadcasting.
Hi Grousebeater, and isn’t it strange how the nobs think massive supply side infrastructure spends like HS2 are simply not on, north of Birmingham or Leeds for that matter? Great blog you got going there by the way!
The last paragraph just about does it, for me.
Alex Walker 6.39
“We could supply free elec to our cash ravaged pensioners”
Being a cash ravaged pensioner myself, I rather liked this idea. I read somewhere that in Turkmenistan every household has free gas and electricity. Seems they export so much gas they can afford to do this.
@ Alex Walker, that can’t be right. A wind turbine costs roughly a million quid right, so 13 thousand million quid spent on Scotland means there are now 13 thousand wind turbines in Scotland! Gosh.
@ Kenny
There’s also been little discussion about the impact of creating a Scottish MoD, a Scottish DWP, a Scottish DVLA and more … will create thousands of jobs in Scotland.
Exactly.
An no longer will an institution stretch its name beyond credulity depending on where its new boss was born, as in:
The Scottish Orchestra.
The Scottish National Orchestra.
The Royal Scottish National Orchestra.
Our institutions won’t necessarily be considered in second place set against London’s institutions, nor London presume when it entitles an institution “national” it means all of the UK whether a Scots, Welsh, or NI one exists already.
Life choices.
Thanks Jim and Dave …… ‘should have gone to spec savers!’
Heedtracker
Great blog you got going there, by the way!
Well, a compliment from Heedtracker, my fine Guardian compatriot, is a compliment indeed. Much obliged!
OT, but bit of light hearted fun with a point: top site for Google News on Alex Salmond today is this: link to edinburghnews.scotsman.com
The first paragraph points out he’s got more followers that all 38 Labour MSPs put together 😀
Jim Marshall
Actually I don’t have a vested interest, other than watching too much tv 😉
I do want to see the arts flourish in Scotland, with more programming and films made in Scotland.
This doesn’t mean to have it remain centralised in Glasgow by any means.
Having a state broadcaster, I see as an enabler , commissioning programming. It provides the ‘seed’ to grow, the talent is encouraged to remain and develop. its as simple as that.
I cannot see any chance of the arts developing, without having a state broadcaster pushing it along.
I quite like how NRK of Norway is structured and the coverage it gives and would be a reasonable model for Scotland to copy
link to local.gov.uk actually no the biggest wind turbine costs €3.7 million tops but even then if the figure of £13 billion is true then that makes for roughly 4 thousand of the biggest turbines. But link to scottishrenewables.com say there’s now 160 onshore wind farms in Scotland.
Edward 7.00
Ok Edward, can we just call this debate a score draw and move on. It is all hypothetical until 19th Sep. Like yourself I hope for a positive result and will not fall out with any indy supporters over issues of secondary importance.
Edward
I cannot see any chance of the arts developing, without having a state broadcaster pushing it along.
Yes, commonsense.
A cable company is also needed, maybe three, one for the Gaels, one for west coast Glaswegian culture, and one other for the rest of us. Why?
The USA’s John Stewart Show is on cable.
None of the mainstream broadcasters would touch it, even now at the height of its success, so unconstrained is it in its material, what it says, how its says it, and the political targets it chooses to lampoon.
A bit of light relief to be found here courtesy of Sanjeev , brilliant stuff , he has something funny in every phrase. SIGN HIM UP! Start at 16.50
link to bbc.co.uk
MORAG, MORAG!!,
Hope you are involved in the new Lockerbie appeal , I am sure all on this site wish you and the other participants all the best, time we all knew what murkiness is being hidden .
Sorry Rev, ought to have excused myself to you first for going O/T.
Also but not only wiki says the GlenDoe hydro scheme can provide 5% electric consumed by Glasgow and that’s not half a million hooses, it’s 180 Giggle watt hours. So of your out there Alex Walker if there’s one thing Reverend Campbell has taught us, it’s right click google everything.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Jim Marshall
Totally Agree with what you say
I personally think we are in exiting times and hope we will have a positive result in September .
This really is history in the making than many don’t quite understand and we have front row seats
@Alex Walker, by the figures you quote there is the real possibility of all of Scotland having free electricity ad infinitum. I’ve never understood why we have to pay excessive amounts to companies whose profits after all deductions for running costs etc, merely serve to fill the pockets of the shareholders of said companies. But then I’ve never understood the concept of ownership either, especially in terms of land and resources, by an elite few who make up the divvying rules to maintain their status as our betters. Aren’t they just greedy bastards with vested interest in maintaining the illusion of said status, isn’t this were the problem lies? (rhetorical question mark).
Rev its Fairietale and its nice to see that you have started plagerising my comments 1984,that Icke bloke dosent seem so nutty now,just makes me wonder why the snp think the rothchilds are going to give them a stake in the great ponzi scheme ie BoE. I am sure lizzy will still want all her free stuff in Scotland and of course the snp will bend over for her. cmon the socialists 😉 oh and i know i cant spell so i shouldent be pulling anybody up but at least i aint casting a spell 😉
@ Alex Walker
Better check your figures Alex: 11 x 500,000 surely equals 5.5 million 🙂
Completely OT …. Just pressed the Survey button at the top and did the polls.
Seems I’m a very typical Winger! My votes almost always corresponded with the top ones.
Fun for a few minutes, but also the results were rather interesting. Basically we are SNP backers, maybe not surprisingly. But not exclusively. Also, Opinions like “referendum on the monarchy after QE passes on”.
Those that haven’t looked in Survey, should.
O/T
Sounds a bit like a Federation of Former Colonies.
link to nypost.com
Has Morag been around today?
link to bbc.co.uk
I’ve known about that for months, but was under strict orders to keep my mouth shut. I was going to give Stu a scoop with it the minute the embargo was lifted. Other people have been leaking like seives and trailing it all over the place though. The Record ran it on 27th April.
I do have an article in preparation with the details, when it’s appropriate to go into detail, and if Stu still wants to run it.
Hell’s bells, that BBC article even includes the main piece of information I was told must on no account be divulged. At all. Oh well, please sir it wisnae me.
If the UK MSM and grand cabal of Westminster parties manage to convince the Scottish electorate that public services will need cut/taxes raised with a Yes vote and a No vote does not mean shitloads mire ‘austerity’ they will have pulled off a grand deception indeed.
The only thing I could add to the many voices pointing out all of the governmental agencies and departments we will need to set up/expand (and I include the SBC in that) there is a real opportunity to do things differently.
The UK model has led to an absurdly centralised government with only a few agencies in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. We have an opportunity to spread government out over the country where possible and sensible. The central belt can be a long way away when viewed from Dumfries and Galloway and the Borders, never mind the Highlands and Islands.
I suppose this is an example of how we can learn from other countries mistakes and build a modern successful society. Not many countries get the chance to reboot.
Talking to an animated guy in the boozer last night who was a definite no: told him that Scotland would need passionate, capable people like him to step forward if we go it alone. If all else fails there’s always flattery.
The Crown Office, dishonest as usual, seeks to imply that two appeals against the conviction were unsuccessful, which is not the case. The second appeal, had it been allowed to proceed had every prospect of success.
@CameronB Brodie – I think that would please both the English politicians and the media but would be bad for the population as they would pursue even more neo-liberal policies.
For your delight and delectation on this auspicious BBC day:
A Short Story of BBC Scotland.
grousebeater:wordpress
liz
Start winding the time-machine up. UKIP do seem to have come out of nowhere and have been backed quite successfully by the BBC. Doesn’t really appear to fit the Atlantic dream. I’m confused. 🙂
Great article, Rev Stu.
I’m glad people are reminded of the kinds of cuts that are coming Scotland’s way if it dares to go independent.
I think one of the great fallacies of whatever the UK government project as indy Scotland’s future assumes that indy Scotland would continue doing things exactly the Westminster way.
Er… They’re rather missing the whole point of this whole indy thing. 😀
Alex Walker 6.39
Im sure I seen a Tomorrows World program back in the day that said that Nuclear would be too cheap to meter!!!
I’ve contributed fairly substantially, along with others of course. Now the wheels of the state have to grind along. I think it’s absolutely open-and-shut, but the Crown Office is lying and dissembling as usual. We’ll just have to see how it progresses.
Heedtracker, re turbine costs, Having worked on a few in the highlands, a rule of thumb price is about £1M per MW, ie 2.5MW turbine = £2.5M
Once you add in infrastructure costs of roads, substation, cabling etc that adds a bit more. Bigger ones are coming along, but most turbines in last half dozen years will be in the 2 to 3 MW range (onshore). No idea of offshore sizes, but would guess they are bigger output.
I wonder how much of this grandiose plan will be funded by Scotland?
link to transport-network.co.uk
Or this one…
link to antarctica.ac.uk
British Overseas and Sovereign Base Areas :-
1. ” British Overseas Territory ”
2. ” British Sovereign Territory ”
3. ” British Dependent Territory ”
4. ” British Sovereign Base Areas ”
CAYMAN ISLANDS – is the Tax Haven Capital of planet Earth that was Ceded to Britain in 1670. and the population of these Islands began in 1720A.D..
Governor – HE Duncan Taylor, C.B.E. Appointed by H.M.Q.E.2 in 2010.
Life Expectancy = 80.68years.
Glasgow East (MALE) Life Expectancy = 54years.
TO-heedtracker and boorach –
Neither of you thought to check the news media-where you will find that the Con.Dem. Govt. has repeatedly Boasted that, since 2010. they have provided £29 BILLION for ” RENEWABLE ENERGY ” AND £13 Billion of that sum came to Scotland. I used the Generic term ” Wind Turbines “, when I should have used ” Green Energy ” ( non-nuclear ).
However, you are both jumping all over a reliable and Cheap Energy Supply WHEN you`re own figures make a cheap form of Energy – Even Cheaper.
NINE TIMES £140 MILLION = £1.26 BILLION (not x 11 for £1.54B.)
I merely repeated the Consumer Numbers provided by S.S.E. to the B.B.C. Countryfile as 500,000 homes and businesses.
According to the figures provided by heedtracker 180 gigglebites must be far larger than 2.5 MW..
Mega = 10 to the 6th. degree.
GIGA = 10 to the 9th. degree
£140 million, using heedtrackers figures, represents the equivalent of 56 x 2.5 M.W. Turbines at Glendoe.
180 Gigabites = 180 x 10 to the 9th.
= 180 x10x 10x10x10x10x10x10x10x10x10 in Elec. Supply equal 5 per cent of the hooses in Glasgow.??
Can we both make mistakes – Maybe?
OT, but the trade union I’m a member of has just sent out PDFs of the replies they got from both Yes Scotland and Better Together to members’ questions. The difference in detail between the two campaigns is pretty wide – BT didn’t even include the original questions in their response; probably because that would have made it too obvious that they weren’t actually answering the questions very well. But they did give a shout-out to our favourite professor at Glasgow Uni, Adam Tomkins!
There will be MASSIVE cuts in expenditure on nuclear power plants, and on decommissioning costs downstream, because we won’t be building any more, or rather paying French companies to build, and make MASSIVE profits from (excuse my tortured grammar). Scotland will be self sustaining in energy via renewables in my lifetime, if I keep taking the tablets. UK’s first nuclear station at Calder Hall, as noted above, would produce electricity that was too cheap to meter. In fact it was a means of producing enriched uranium to manufacture fissile material to enable UK to join the WMD club.
Tying in with the other thread, cant we start our own Lottery too, no more cash going to a private company and doing up the Royal Opera House but to help Scottish Institutions instead. Simples.
further – on Hydro-Elec.Power :-
For only £8.6 Billion we can supply 3 million homes and businesses in Scotland with Safe (non-nuclear) Electricity for 100 – 120 years.
£140million represents 56 x 2.5 Mw wind turbines.
Incidentally, 180 Giga- Watts = 180 Trillion Watts.
And, according to Google and heedtracker, this massive supply of elec. serves only 5 per cent of the hooses in Glasgow. ?? WRONG-WRONG-WRONG.
HEEDTRACKER WAS BEING LESS THAN HONEST.
GOOGLE SPECIFICALLY STATES – GLENDOE SUPPLIES THE EQUIVALENT OF 5 PER CENT OF THE CONSUMPTION OF GLASGOW. !!
QUITE DIFFERENT FROM 5 PER CENT OF THE HOOSES.???
60 x 50,000 = 3 Million Homes and Businesses in Scotland. For £6.8 Billion outlay.
It is not as though Scotland is short of Rainwater or Lochs that can be employed to supply Safe (non-nuclear) power for 100-120 years.
Cruachan Hydro-elec. Power Scheme was completed in 1965. and can supply 440MW hours daily.
And 705 Giga Watt hours annually.
More than 20.4 per cent of the Consumption of Glasgow.
Not just the hooses.
CORRECTION :-
Using (correctly), the Google Figures-viz a vis their analysis of Glendoe and Cruachan Hydro-Elec. Schemes.
When 180 GigaWatt Hours supplies 5 per cent of the total consumption of the City of Glasgow, then the Cruachan Scheme which produces 705 Giga-Watt Hours – MUST – Supply 3.92 Times the 5 per cent (or) 19.8 per cent of the total consumption of Glasgow. !!
And together Glendoe and Cruachan can supply 24.8 per cent of the consumption of Glasgow for £140 million + £25.4 Million = £165.4 million.
£13 billion supplied to Scotland by Con.Dem. Govt. since 2010. out of a total of £29 Billion.
Readers must grant me the courtesy of allowing me to be
Multiplying £165.4 million x 4 to serve ALL the elec. consumption of Glasgow at only £661 million to serve us for 100-120 years.
Safe non-nuclear electricity that requires minimal Servicing.
What is Wrong with these people?
Cruachan Hydro-elec. Scheme Employed 1,300 Steel and Heavy Construction Workers.
If we imagine 60 x similar-sized Hydro-elec. schemes, we can easily REPLACE the Shipyard Jobs threatened by the Con.Dems. and Scottish New Labour M.P.`s at Westminster before Scotland has voted for Freedom.
It`s not difficult to multiply 1,300 x 60 = 78,000 new jobs.
Replacing less than 3,000 Shipyard jobs.
We can show the world that we will Protect our Pensioners, our Infirm and Disabled from premature Death from Hypothermia in Winter by supplying FREE ELEC.during the depths of wild winter.
£661 million to suppy Scotland`s biggest city with SAFE (non-nuclear) Elec. for 100-120 years.
Compare this figure with the Public Monies WASTED on the TRAMS in Edinburgh which travel only half-way to the original contracted destination??
HS2.?
Trident?
Two Aircraft Carriers that can`t get aircraft?
When Public Money is not the Problem – What`s the PROBLEM.?
Will someone, anyone join me in trying to be constructive, not destructive, about Scottish Taxes and the National Insurance Contributions that have been levied by Westminster.
My Nat. Ins. Contributions were Paid Entirely to the Westminster Treasury, and I must be Repaid from London -AFTER- independence, as must the 1.3 million current Pensioners in Scotland.
When those current 1.3 million ( approx.?) Pensioners are Due these Rebates (Plus Accrued Compound Interest), we are talking about very large sums of money. Monies that will not be Due as State Pensions from Holyrood.
Potentially, a Massive Saving to the New Independent Exchequer. Zero Cuts Required.
On other taxes.
UNIVERSAL LEVELS of Taxation Apply Across All the Regions and countries of England, Ulster, Wales and Scotland.
However, we have witnessed Scottish Labour M.P.`s and Unelected Scottish Peers insisting that Scottish Taxes bought zero U.K.Assets and zero part of any U.K.Assets.?
According to this inane logic, every Scot is Due massive Tax Rebates( plus Accrued Compound Interest) because we must have OVERPAID when the r.U.K. BOUGHT AND OWN ALL THE ASSETS – like Trident etc. which are not Parked on their Owner`s Land.?
Another inconsistency that the “Better Together” campaign is being allowed to avoid.
Have I been hallucinating.?
A post independence Scottish BBC, which people seem to be keen on (jobs etc) is surely a contradiction in terms. But something the First Min seems keen on, he wants to keep the Beeb does he not. Oh, and the pound. More of a new yawn than dawn?
Westminster have so far broke their promise of a motion in Westminster. If they shatter their promise completely for example no bill in January as promised are we not entitled to unilaterally declare independence?