The Untouchables
Posted on
April 16, 2015 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
How long do you think the papers can keep pretending that all the other papers don’t exist, or that we don’t see any of them, folks?
Like, you never heard of Schrödinger’s newswire?
What a shambles, Scotland deserves better!
(good job we’ve got you Stu) 😉
To confuse their disparate readerships is their goal. They don’t care that you and I can see it, they know their readerships, by and large, won’t.
Cameron getting ready to get grubby with Nicola, who’s already in bed with Ed? Oh good, a threesome. Wonder if Nicola’s got a trident strap on especially for them.
Who needs worry what other newspapers say, when you just make shit up.
“clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right . . .”
attacks from both sides.
if only labour were still to the left :\
Eanie meanie minie mo,
catch a LIAR by the toe!
Is it me or are we entering a phase of our glorious media returning to the old adage that we are too wee, too poor and too stupid!
I mean if we were not then we would be able to differentiate between the truth and lies and figure out for ourselves which paper is telling the truth. However due to our predicamemnt we will have no alternative but revert to the BBC for the TRUTH in this matter. 😀
“Murphy was supposed to be the Great White Hope, the strongest card in their deck. He was supposed to give them stability and a new start. As many of us predicted, all he’s done is expose their soulless lack of any conviction, ideals or credibility in a way that is the stuff of Nicola Sturgeon’s dreams. The longer you watch him the more you think “dead man walking”, and that appears to be the general consensus south of the border.”
link to commentisntfree.com
I’m just amazed the DM hasn’t run with one of the holy trinity on the frontpage. Diana, cancer, immigrants. Well done the DM, stirring stuff.
And they wonder why people have trust issues with today’s media and political classes? 😮
O/T: link to caltonjock.com
Time for some Display Management. If passing a newsagent or supermarket, please rearrange the newspapers to ensure these two front pages are displayed side by side, as above. There’s no starker visual message.
This is so funny.
All we need now is the revelation that Liberal Democrats are in bed with the SNP from the Plockton News and we’re truley Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo’d
Love and kisses
John
Sarah Smith interviewing Willie Rennie allowed him to repeat i think it was 3 times “There was something fundamentally wrong with supporting the SNP being in government in a country they’re against”
In essence if you’re not Pro English you must be Anti
I’m really tired of this filth, and it’s especially from the Lib Dems who pretend to wear lovely cuddly nice people clothes but are at their core Grime and Pond Life
Conservatives, we expect it, it’s how they win, we all know that, in a way they’re honest scum
Labour, well they plumb the depths of humanity and lies to get what they want
If there’s anybody left in the known universe who can’t see through Murphy yet then there certainly is no hope for them or they’re just as bad
I’m finding this election in many ways inspirational from our perspective
The SNP are fighting clean and using Politics and hard work to win this for Scotland
But i do find myself filled at times with such a loathing for the British Nationalists and i call them that because i’m fed up being called a Nationalist, i’m not
I’m a member of Scotlands National Party you might as well call me a Scotlandist it’s bloody stupid and i don’t like it i’m not an ( IST ) of anything
I’m tired of it, and when i’m tired i can get tetchy, anybody can,
So beware Brit Nats maybe the rest of Scotland are getting as tired, or even more tired than me of your continual abuse and we’ll all get tetchy
After the election we’ll have to get on, but the abuse will not be forgotten so don’t expect kisses and hugs coz we’ll shove it right into you at the Holyrood elections worse
Going to bed before i break a nail
Sorry to be O/T so early but just read this from Jeff Dugdale! 😉
#GE15 Just heard Jim say “I’m confident we can turn these poles around !” Now he’s against immigration as well ?? Must have been misquoted
😀
O/T Dreadful development regarding missing student Karen Buckley:
link to m.stv.tv
Thoughts and prayers with the family at this terrible time.
[…] The Untouchables […]
Yea I agree – my prayers are with her family
Apologies for going O/T so early … AGAIN!
I seem to remember the other day we were discussing the legality, or otherwise, of the manifesto launch from the Scottish Labour party ( yes folks I know I shouldn’t call them that but it’s late and I tired! 😉 ) Well guess what folks … Cameron is due up in Scotland later today to launch the Scottish Conservaitve manifesto!
link to bbc.co.uk
Sorry I’m O/T yet again but there is a fund raiser been set up to help Karen Buckley’s parents.
link to gofundme.com
O/T — Satire is back with the return of revamped Spitting Image style show, witty but don’t know how it will affect campaign especially non political types which i guess may be the demographic watching
link to youtube.com
Hi John Moss.
I think I prefer the Ullapool News – because I can’t find the Plockton News’ web presence.
link to facebook.com
Its all good.
Not only have we ignited constitutional negotiations but we have set a fire under Corporational foundations,
Not just State but de State.
Things are definitely shifting, tectonically!
Deep State, apologies!
DEEP folly, for the obfuscatey of the politicay fundemold!
Oh yes!
Just got my pal to vote SNP 🙂
@Kevin Evans,
Haha – a late night booze sesh? 😉
Why do we need nuclear weapons?
We really really really really need nookleer weapons to keep us safe.
Safe from who?
Fay a they Rushinz and a they Kireeinz. We NEED to be safe. America’s got thum.
Do you think it’s okay for the police to carry guns?
Polis we guns on thum!!!!!!!!!! That’ll be fukn right!!!! Dinny want Sco’lind ti be like America di yi?!?
But they’re keeping us safe too no?
We really really really need nookleer weapons. No guns. They’re far too dangerous.
Unionists ay. Wa’d hay thum.
Reminds me of this:
Magazine, Shot by both sides.
Http/:www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwKv3H9WAkY
Actually makes sense since labour and tory are just branch offices of the establishment. One and the same.
O/T slightly, but the Daily Mail had something about armed police at Inverness Station. Would these people be part of British Transport Police by any chance…which Scottish Ministers want to take over, Mail aghast!
O/T The picture of the armed policeman in Inverness?
It wasn’t armed police on routine patrol last time, it was an Armed Response Team sent out to investgate an incident report.
What’s the betting this is more of the same.
And why do they not report that Armed Response Teams are deployed as armed response teams all over England and Wales?
This sort of nonsense I can understand if it was the rest of the UK …but Scotland!
There has to be a level of self-denial here; not only from hardcore Labour or Tory editors within places such as the Daily Record, Scottish Daily Mail or the Scotsman, but also from the owners that own such publications.
Or is there a case of the owners of the papers just do not care about what happens in Scotland?
Or are the Establishment now playing the very long game? In other words, they know that Scotland won’t get back into the box at the moment, but given time, a refusal to budge, and a commitment to current policies, then eventually, the Scots will just become sickened with it all, and just accept the status quo.
I know it seems like that Stu, but on this occasion the disparity is intentional.
The aim is simply to portray the SNP as untrustworthy.
They are all on a mission to discredit, discredit, discredit.
Kevin Evans 4.58,
Well done friend.But could I point out,your pal hasn’t actually voted for anyone yet at this election.Its upto you to make sure he does actually vote SNP come the time.Cheers.
‘Norway has food banks for immigrated who are not allowed to work’ Norway has a £500Billion sovereign wealth fund. The largest in the world but doesn’t have a neighbouring government controlling it’s wealth.
Scitland raises and spends £54Billion (including geographical Oil revenues) Official Scottish Gov website. Block Grant £35Billion £16Billion (UK) Pensions/Benefits and £3Billion Defence.
Scotland lost £4Billion a year in Oil tax revenues because Osborne increased Oil taxes 11% (£2Billion) a year in 2011Budget – 4 x £4Billion – £16Billion. That would cover any Deficit. Westminster can interfere in Scotland’s economy but expects Scottish MP’s not to vote on it.
Scotland could save on Trident/illegal wars, Corp tax which goes through London HQ’s, tax evasion, loan interest, a tax on ‘loss leading’ drink, Oil on the West, a tax on non productive land. Estates. Land is exempt from tax) – £10Billion+ a year.
The SNP Gov has mitigated the ‘room tax’ , welfare benefits (£100Million), social care, prescriptions, increased spending on the SNHS £1.8Billion (£11.8Billion). Supported Education/student loans.
Invested in the Scottish economy The Queensferry Bridge, AWPR, Borders railway, and rail line/times between Glasgow/Edinburgh. Always balanced the budget.
The UK raises £466 in tax revenues. Official UK Gov wedsite (search statistics). The rest of UK raises £412Billion in tax revenues and borrows £90Billion more. 40 years of debt can’t be paid back in 4 years. The National Debt, what everyone owes – mortgages, car loans, commercial loans is £1.5trillion. The UK assets are £7.5Trillion.
Westminster are sanctioning the vulnerable and starving them to death. They have cut NHS funding £2Billion a year (savings?) Cut Education £6Billion (increased student loans) -£3Billion they will not get back. Why increase uni fees? Just more bureaucracy.
Westminster are a bunch of crooks protected by the Official Secrets Act. They have lied about Scotland. Labour kept the McCrone Report secret for thirty years and Thatcher took all the Oil revenues and shut down every manufacturing facility in Scotland. ‘This must be kept secret’ written on documents released last year. Thatcher minister resigned. Thatcher cancelled a pipe line wasting the equivalent of £Billions of Gas.
Thatcherism is back. They are selling off Public housing, sanctioning the vulnerable and rewarding the wealthy who caused the crash.
Vote SNP to protect Scotland.
The actual content of the Daily Mail story is beyond stupid, even for them. Apparently the SNP are already in a pact with Labour because – wait for it – in this parliament they’ve voted with each other in 91.5% of the votes.
No shit, Sherlock. The lead opposition party and a party who commit themselves to being anti-Tory both manage to vote against a Tory government most of the time? Surely not!
Disingenuous crap. Surely even Daily Mail readers will be smart enough to actually think twice about it?
The circulation death spiral is speeding up!
These rags will be gone in a decade.
The MSM are just an national disgrace. Right wing wealthy, middle class males. Tax evaders out to protect their wealth. No one believes a word they say anymore. Without a free and balanced Press there is no democracy. Thatcher saw to that.
O/T
Question for BBC Scotland.
Why, for over a week now, when you are telling us what the political Parties are doing for the day, you have been finishing your reports with telling us what the Scottish Labour Party will be doing?
Every news bulletin is the same, every day you finish your reports on what Jim Murphy will be doing and where he will be going.
Showing the Labour Party last, you are hoping that is what sticks in the viewers minds.
It’s not another one of your physiological tricks, isn’t it?
Is this another wee favour for Scottish Labour and you hope no one catches on to it.
Well you’re too late, we HAVE caught onto it.
James Cook (BBC Scotland), if you are reading this, then tell your bosses to start mixing the reports up a bit.
Typical BBC Scotland, they think we are as daft as they are.
Ah well, at least the SNP cannot complain of being ignored this time!
Happy to renew nuclear weapons but outraged at a pistol. Less than 3000 fire armed trained police for 5m citizens lets hope when the russians/north koreans/chinese come it is not a land invasion !
Has Purdah kicked it. No political reporting before the Election.
This did not happen during the Referedum, despite the agreement. The same rules as a General Election.
Business for Scotland. Re HS2
Economic adviser on Sky News joins Dragon’s Den. Millionaire. All in it together. Millionaire broadcasters.
Caz-m
Yes , noted .
I noted a few days back and again right now .
Still showing the Jm & Greig McClymont walking up to the groupies , that was a couple of weeks back !
Is that the only support Libour have ? Maebees Aye , maebees Naw !
Latest TV media ploy seems to be talk up potential Lib Dems seats and talk down SNP seats.
Seems it will be a case of “Smallest party forms the Govt”
Im still loving the “Nicola may do worse than expected (and not get over 50 seats)” quote by a former Lib Dem adviser on last nights Scotland Tonight. Have media already forgot its Labour who have 40 seats in Scotland at present to SNPs 6?
Tory Scottish manifesto today Cameron & Ruthie, more powers for Scotland ;powers galore, powers beyond measure…yawn!
I hear that tinnitis is a problem in Scotland, incurable but there is a cure for Jimmitis in Scotland, just vote SNP.
@James Forrest @ 12.58
Thanks, great article from ‘comment isn’t free, game over, man, game over’.
‘Labour used to campaign on hope,
Now it runs on fear, and not even fear of anything real.’
Says it all.
Just wait, if the SNP only 35 to 40 seats and still hold the balance of power the TV pundits will have dimmed lights and shine torches under their chins and tell is in sombre voices why this is a disaster for the SNP who fallen from 6 seats to 38.
Meanwhile we will be partying. 🙂
Murphy will be in Hamilton today, promising young folks loads-a-money. Hope there will be plenty of hecklers around to ask him if his figures have been cleared by London H.Q.
Free Scotland
Actually, wouldn’t it be great if no one bothered to show up.
Does he have permission to go to Motherwell never mind make pledges?
Tackety Beets 8.32am
BBC Scotland really do think we are that stupid.
And that is what gets you so angry with them, they put out their bias reports and think no one will notice just how bias they actually are.
No wonder I stopped paying my License fee.
Did I just say that I don’t pay for Jackie Burd’s mortgage?
Or James Cook’s mortgage or Gary Robertson’s mortgage or Gordon Brew’s mortgage or…
O/t But I can’t leave this wee niggle any longer.
Regarding Thrush Murphy and the Irn Bru:
Anybody got any evidence of him with Irn Bru before Indyref 1?
Can you get Irn Bru in South Africa ?
Any side effects of the ingredients which would explain irrational/hyperactive behaviour of the Thrush ?
What effect on Barr’s sales ?
Anything to do with the fact my local Tesco has suddenly put up shelves and shelves of giant plastic bottles of the stuff ?
Is the millionaire Thrush Murphy reaping any benefit from this association ? Donations, shares, rotting teeth, hyperactivity etc.?
So many questions but I need to know….
Hamilton even – need some coffee to wake me up
It sure is an odd trade teamGB news meeja, show biz gossip, football dullness, distressing borderline paedophilia at the Heil, sexist hard core lechers at the SUN and all with the most ferocious rule Britannia propaganda ever seen, since last week.
Left out their phone hacking, how they’ve lied so hard about it all. I’m from Aberdeen where the ghastly hard line right wing Press and Journal actually pay a photographer to wait outside the Sheriff court and photograph people, and they are actually people, they photograph broken frightened people convicted of benefit fraud and display them with their names and addresses, in their revolting paper week after week, while they grovel at the feet of billionaire royals, City banksters and all the usual red and blue tories, mostly blue ones though.
O/T A pity BBC Radio Scotland on GMS didn’t ask Edinburgh South Labour MP Ian Murray why he came out against nuclear weapons in local press yesterday when he didn’t even turn up to vote against the renewal of Trident when it was debated in House of Commons on January 20. The Labour Party abstained under orders from Miliband other than 17 with some principles and only six from Scotland.
Murray also failed to mention that it was the Labour Council that first earmarked Burdiehouse Primary School for closure which led to a significant drop in the school roll as local parents didn’t want to enrol their youngsters then have to change schools a year or so later.
Murphy – the Max Shellinger of the racist labour party.
The great thing is that BOTH these articles will be sat side by side in Supermarkets and in Petrol Stations and in Shops all across Scotland making people wonder what the hell the media are playing at!
If anyone was of a different voting persuasion might find themselves voting for the SNP because they can’t bear anymore lies from a corrupt media who’s only wish is to see the “big two” back to winning ways!
So SLAB are employing tax cheats…
link to archive.today
Two high profile Labour party members join the SNP:
link to snp.org
More evidence that Labour is heading down a one way street to oblivion.
o/t
Honestly think English folk are more savvy than they are made out by their media.
But I can’t help thinking we are viewing Scotland’s position as in the analogy of the abusive marriage, through the BBC driven UK media lens.
The BBC View of an ordinary modern family – ‘The Britons’
Right kids – I know we’ve just had a massive situation we wont go into and your Mum/Dad had threatened to leave, as He/She
often does from time to time, (as you know); but after all the family got involved to say how much of a good team we were and how they all loved the really cool things about us as a family, we are gonna keep going as a unit; like we have for years ’cause we love each other and we’re all equals right ? ‘kay…
So… Mum/Dads staying in the house with us as agreed (big Yay), but so there’s no more talk of running off and since I’m the biggest & most trustworthy and as I didn’t threaten to leave, I have to watch him/her because really they are still a bit dangerous and untrustworthy, (for hanging about with that CND lot!). What do you say as long as I’m in charge and Mum/ Dad does what I say, we can all go back to normal as if nothing has happened, (another big Yay).
What’s that ?… Am I still keeping a big stick for when they want to run off ?
That’s not the point ! Didn’t I get Mr Bowie to help out and calm things down ?
How often did I use that big stick ? It was only ever a threat (usually) !
Who’s in control of the money ?
I am – they can’t be trusted, you know this.
What? You’re not happy ? What ? You want to leave with them this time.
THIS PROGRAMME IS BEING INTERUPTED AS IT DOES NOT COMPLY WITH UK GOVT/ BBC GUIDELINES; AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETEY DIFFERENT!
I think these headlines just suggest the SNP are the party all the others want to cuddle up to. It advertises the fact the SNP are WINNERS. That should attract even more votes, I reckon.
Heres a laugh. I was reading on the BBC website about tonight’s debate. Apparently the arrangements for the podiums are. Nigel Farage on the far right and heres the funny bit. Ed Miliband on the far left. 🙂
Without the Tories and Liberals this debate is a bit of a joke but I suppose it does allow the others to attack the Coalition without interruption.
Apparently the BBC are allowing Tory commentators into the spin room for the analysis bit. Why when their man refused to take part?
@Niana Tal,
Re Irn bru and the Smurph. Would you really want your brand to be associated with Jim Murphy BA politics (failed) ? 🙂
Excellent article by George Monbiot ‘Labours longest till receipt in history’ if anyone more able than me can copy/paste it here.
He talks about not what Labour are promising but what they’re not.
According to Guido, the two people running ( one for Labour, one for Tory) the Westminster campaigns , are experts from the U.S. elections.
Maybe that explains the superficial , sounditey, total whitewash that is being beamed out by our media?
Foreign policy ? Anyone heard a decent debate about foreign policy ?
I might be parochial and one of those evil separatists but I learned and gave more thought sitting in our local hall, than any million pound campaign any Westminster Party and their mouth pieces media has offered so far.
Really annoyed by Sarah Smith last night ,who was prompting Willie Rennie re tactical voting.Willie had his usual disastrous interview,but was given free reign to talk about keeping the SNP out. He and Smith both laughed when she asked why not just vote Lib Dem,as they both knew what Rennie was proposing.
The establishment should be aware there are dangers in manipulating situations by the media.
The Queen apparently watches daily politics
hope she hides the corgis when Jim Murphy is on
Might be reading too much into it but the way the media want to play it will be interesting.
Farage and Nicola Sturgeon stood side by side at this debate tonight is an easy way for the BBC to put the two together.
I won’t be at all surprised if a photo like that appears somewhere in the days after the election.
Best make sure you come out on top again Nicola! 🙂
Ironically, yesterday in America, the House Foreign Affairs Committee had a special hearing into why people in the West are turning to Russian media…
I think we could explain WHY to them! The answer, sirs, is staring at you in the face!
if it’s popular it’s bad, is the message coming from the politics of the irrational.
democracy is about voting for what one believes in.
why am i even saying this?
well that’s how out of touch the unionist rhetoric has become.
unionist politicians have failed to prove my view and a couple of million others, and if ‘would you vote for the snp, polls r.uk’ are to be believed, many more, wrong.
it’s so bad i don’t even believe the date on this link below!
link to archive.today
Macca73
UKIP are bust. On track for only 1 seat and it isnt even Farages.
Im more interested in how 20 or so Lib Dem seats in England are adjudged to have more weight than 40+ SNP seats in Scotland. Defo 2nd class citizen status.
Wishing Nicola Sturgeon all the best for tonight’s debate.
You have the support of the majority of the Scottish Nation right behind you Nicola.
Go Nicola!
Vote SNP May 7th.
More BBC propaganda today from Mark Mardell see link to bbc.co.uk
Ruth Davidson and Patrick Hervie get quoted and then
“You have to feel for Labour’s new leader in Scotland, Jim Murphy.
He has got the drive and the strategy and the image that some south of the border lack, and he is pressing all the right buttons – but they needed to be pressed months or years ago.
”
You have to feel for the Smurph – why?
The drive – I’ll give you.
The strategy – really?
The image – what?
Pressing all the right buttons – surely this is satire.
@Ken500 says: 16 April, 2015 at 7:08 am:
” … Scotland lost £4Billion a year in Oil tax revenues because Osborne increased Oil taxes 11% (£2Billion) a year in 2011Budget – 4 x £4Billion – £16Billion … “
Whoa There! Ken500
You got that bit wrong. Scotland doesn’t get a brass farthing, (Sorry if you’re too young to know about Farthings, (brass or otherwise)), of oil & gas revenues as the Westminster, (UK), Treasury takes 100% of the revenues as United Kingdom revenue from, “Extra-Regio-Territory”, even although around 95% of that territory lies within Scottish territorial limits and continental shelf.
Scotland’s sole income is from the Scottish Block Grant and that is set by Westminster by use of the Barnett Formula. There is nothing whatsoever directly lost or gained by Scotland due to oil & gas price fluctuations.
Re iheartscotland at 10.18
Strikes me they are irrevocably linked, like it or no. When confronted by Tesco’s veritable wall of Irn Bru all I could think of was his big glaiket coupon. Only to hear my partner ask “Has thon Murphy been in here?”
If Tesco thought they’d sell lots of Irn Bru based on exposure by Jim, I think they’ll be disappointed!
Murphy’s Law strikes again. haw haw haw haw
Just the newspapers?
Alex Massie has an article in the Spectator “The SNP has taken over from the Church of Scotland”! He opines that SNP supporters are simply not prepared to believe economic facts, issued by… the Unionists! I don’t believe the facts, nor a single word issued by the Unionists – politicians, MSM, “respectable” serious magazines, the BBC, so I must be even worse than a humble SNP – going member, I must be a zealot!
Postal voting concerns, distorted economic “facts”, concealed economic facts, the Vow, the Smith Commission, none of all that was a surprise to me during and following the referendum.
Consider JimforJim Murphy, by his words and his behaviour he is totally discredited yet the media still have him on display. The Unionist media aren’t reporting the news, they are reporting their agenda.
What progress the investigation into Ruth Davidson, and McTernan’s preview of postal voting trends? Kicked into the long grass? Why? Because with the Uk’s convenient absence of a written constitution, it can be. And the principle of removing such powers as “the long grass”, interests me more than Unionist economic distortions.
Speed the day when Scotland is away from Westminster.
Slightly OT but is everyone really that disturbed by armed police officers on the beat? The media is making a big deal about it, but I can’t see how it is a problem unless they are trigger-happy like the US police tend to be be.
A very interesting piece by Mark Frankland on what’s happening in the drugs market on the expectation of people receiving Universal Credit.
Or, as IDS might term it, a very interesting report on the economic impact of UC and it’s potential to create substantial growth and opportunity in key areas of business.
link to marksimonfrankland.blogspot.co.uk
He is trying to stop what is happening but the article is very interesting on a number of levels.
This is not new or even unique to the SNP / Independence Movement, of course, but it’s only when the British Establishment feels truly threatened that both* sides of our (ahem) democratic spectrum attack from their particular perspectives. A lot of this is directly comparable to the coverage of the Miners’ Strike in 1984.
*”both” being the usual description because, apparently, it’s not possible to have anything other than a binary system.
molly
link to monbiot.com
re podiums, eltons platforms will come in handy.
or will shoe height be carefully scrutinized?
Paula,
Well I’m not but then I lived and worked in europe for a long time.
A police officer that I knew there told me that if they just pulled a gun in the street they would be spending at least a week stuck in the office doing the paperwork. If they used it, well you’d be talking whole forests of paper.
Seemed to work to OK as a control system!
@Clootie says: 16 April, 2015 at 7:37 am:
“The circulation death spiral is speeding up!
These rags will be gone in a decade.
MSM owners are claiming, “You just can’t get good hired help theses days”.
@Ken500
7:08am
Scitland (sic) raises and spends £54Billion (including geographical Oil revenues) Official Scottish Gov website.
You mean Scotland raises £54 billion (including geographical Oil revenues) but spends £66 billion leaving a deficit of £12 billion, Official Scottish Gov website.
FTFY
Does this mean one of these papers is lying?
Paula
I have never seen one. There are only a very small percentage of officers with permits to carry guns, that hasn’t changed. House wanted to use those officers for routine work too. It was an efficiency thing rather than any desire to show of weapons on the street.
Willie decided that Police Scotland are public enemy No 1 has been making a thing of it ever since. The fact that most people think IDS and the Coalition cuts on the poor are public enemy No 1 seem to have passed him by.
Does this mean one of these papers is lying?
🙂
They are newspapers….so they both are.
Our household has recently received election campaign leaflets from Labour and the Conservatives and to their credit(!) they don’t contain too much anti-SNP drivel.
But the Lib Dems…
Well, the Lib Dems electioneering literature is verging on outright madness and paranoia.
We had alredy received the ‘copy’ made up for each Lib Dem candidate and another leaflet from our Argyll & Bute candidate, Alan Reid, with its lies and fearmongering regarding the SNP.
Yesterday, we received the “Highlands & Islands Gazette”, something not seen before or asked to be deliverd to our house. It turns out to be yet more Lib Dem electioneering literature, this time in four-page newspaper style. And it’s absolutely bonkers comedy gold!
The front page has a screaming headline in red of “OUTRAGE” to headline a fairytale with a first paragraph of, “Residents have been shocked and appalled to find out the SNP have taken money, services and jobs away from the Highlands and Islands and moved them to the Central Belt.” At the bottom of the page we get, “We can’t trust the SNP to fight for the Highlands”. Oh, and at the top we see a couple of racehorses and “Only the Lib Dems can stop the SNP”
Inside, the delusions of doing good continue. “A tank of fuel for your car is now 20p a litre cheaper thanks to the Liberal Democrats in Government.“ “Over 350,000 people across the Highland and Islands are benefiting from a tax cut of £800 thanks to the Liberal Democrats in Government.“ “The Lib Dems have always led the way in the fight to get powers from London given to Scotland”. The SNP-bashing is in full flow also with guff about the NHS and pensions.
The Comment from David Steel deserves a special comedy gold award with statements such as: “The SNP think they can win every MP in Scotland. This would be bad for Scotland. This would be a disaster for the Highlands and Islands.”, and, “We have already seen the devastating consequences of having the SNP in power in Scotland.”
Finally, the back page goes full-on tabloid mental against the SNP: “SNP TAKE THEIR EYE OFF THE BALL”, “Services suffer on the SNP’s watch”, “NHS Crisis”, “College Places Lost”, “Services Centralised”, “Cancer targets missed”, “A&E in crisis”, “Local courts closed”, and lots of other pish.
And there at the bottom is that racehorses picture again! “Only the Lib Dems can stop the SNP”, “It’s a two horse race between the Lib Dems and SNP”, “More and more people are backing the Lib Dems to stop the SNP”
Whoever the Lib Dems in Scotland’s election campaign director is deserves some sort of award for How Not To Do It total numpty-ness. Delivering these pieces of fear-filled lies and misinformation to Scotland’s households just proves that the Lib Dems have bugger-all to offer except a re-run of the Project Fear smears against the SNP. Just pathetic. Good comedy gold value, though!
@Robert Peffers
11:33am
You do love your “Extra-Regio-Territory”.
The GERS report attributes an oil & gas revenue to Scotland using an illustrative geographical share. The methodology in GERS includes covers your “Extra-Regio-Territory” that you’re so fond of mentioning.
Why do you keep pedalling this line? Why can’t you accept that the numbers used to argue for/against FFA or even independence take into account a favourable apportioning of oil & gas revenue to Scotland?
If the oil price increases then the GERS report will reflect this as it did in 2011-2012 (you know, the report that was used to state that Scotland had a surplus in the white paper).
Naina, have you seen what the aforementioned soft drink does to white tablecloths? On that basis, what can it do to the innards – then possibly the brain cells- of a politician?
@call me dave says: 16 April, 2015 at 8:43 am:
“I hear that tinnitis is a problem in Scotland, incurable but there is a cure for Jimmitis in Scotland, just vote SNP”
Funny you should say that for only last night there were news reports that there are now several new pills that can cure Tinnitus.
Perhaps the media have it wrong again and they mixed Tinnitus with Jimmitus? I can see it now – a long line queued up at the surgery, all with wee YES badges on their jackets, waiting for an anti-Jimmitus prescription.
Thanks Fred Blogger, the family have tried , they really have but I just can’t seem to do the copy thing right !
I lived in South Africa for 30 years, believe me armed police are a blessing, especially since Bliar’s failed red tories took away the right of private citizens to own and carry fire arms.
@Colin Rippey says: 16 April, 2015 at 11:56 am:
“You do love your “Extra-Regio-Territory”.”
Eh!
Stop spinning, Rippey.
A blind man could see I HATE that Extras-Regio-Territory.
So, shall we continue to examine the rest of your idiotic propaganda?
Na! Suffice to point out the stone cold fact that ALL Oil & Gas Revenue actually does go directly into the United Kingdom Treasury.
I deal in FACTS not in Creative Accountancy designed to deceive, such as that of HM Treasury, or even the GERS figures, which although published by the SG were conceived by a Tory government with the express aim of showing falsely that Scotland was too wee, too poor and the Scots far too stupid to run their own country.
Both these accountancy statements, UK Budget and SG GERS, “ATTRIBUTE”, a different perceived share of the Oil & Gas revenues to Scotland but neither actually adds that, “PERCIEVED”, share of funding as actual Scotland funding.
Got it now? The Oil & Gas revenue goes directly to HM Treasury and NOT to Scotland. Furthermore, no share of it has ever been transferred to Scotland.
@Colin Rippey says: 16 April, 2015 at 11:47 am
“You mean Scotland raises £54 billion (including geographical Oil revenues) but spends £66 billion leaving a deficit of £12 billion, Official Scottish Gov website.
FTFY
That’s the second person you have attempted to tell what they mean, Rippey. You must be a Unionist. That’s how they do things.
I think the few bob I send to you each month is well spent Stuart. How you can bring yourself to read these infamous rags is beyond me. You must have a constitution made of steel. For the love of me, I couldn’t bring my self to even glance at them these days.
@Robert Peffers
Okay, I’ll play along.
The 2013-2014 GERS attributed £4 billion oil & gas revenue to Scotland using an illustrative geographical model.
What would the real figure be in your opinion?
I know your argument is that all oil & gas revenue is retained by Westminster as Holyrood receives income via Barnett, but the current arguments for FFA and the past arguments for Independence have attempted to work out what the actual revenue from oil & gas would be, and the source for much of those arguments have been the revenue figures presented via GERS.
The current debate on FFA is using the GERS figures (and the illustrative geographical model) to present a case on the viability of Scotland adopting FFA.
You say you deal in FACTS (your emphasis). What are your facts on the revenue Scotland would generate if it were to retain all oil & gas? What are your figures? Present your case and prove beyond doubt what I am posting here is “idiotic propaganda”.
@ Colin Rippey
As we have come to expect through the referendum campaign, you are focussing solely on the position in Scotland. I have already shown on another thread that the deficit in Scotland in the year under discussion is not different from the deficit of the UK as a whole: yet you continue to assume there is a problem for Scotland but not a problem of the same order for the UK. If you can show that my workings are wrong I will be interested, but it would require you to do some work. Perhaps you don’t have time for that.
The fact is that both countries have a deficit,as you would expect since the are part of one economy. The media and this government would have you believe that is a bad thing. From my point of view it is a good thing, and it would be a better thing if that deficit was a lot higher than it is. The alternative is higher private debt, and that means you and me, and possibly private businesses. There is no doubt that that is what the deficit reduction plan entails, and that has been shown by the OBR quite clearly. See also this report of the IMF position on this question
link to theguardian.com
I hold no brief for the IMF, because I consider them mere apologists for plutocrats, with a lot of power/influence and no accountability at all – much like the IFS in fact. But they are promoted as respectable by those same plutocrats, so it is legitimate to refer to their views in this context
More importantly, for this discussion. The Scottish government has balanced its budget every year, as it has to do because of the arrangements we have. The UK government has run a deficit every year, by contrast. The MSM prefer to focus on hypothetical and shaky “forecasts” rather than on what has actually happened so far. But the best guide to future behaviour is past behaviour. So who do you trust more?
You have previously asked for numbers which are not published, to show what other income SG might have if the situation were radically different, as it would be if Scotland had FFA, or was independent. As it happens there is one small example which might show some of what goes on.
In 2005 the Network Rail grant was devolved to Scotland. Before that the government made decisions as to where the money available to network rail was spent. Scotland got far less than its population share in consequence, and the income from that grant rose substantially after it was devolved
“the rise in identifiable spending on Scottish transport between 2005–06 and 2006–07 is explained by an increase in spending on railways.55 This substantial increase reflects the devolution of the Network Rail grant to Scotland in 2006–07 as a
result of the Railways Act 2005. Previously, this had been the responsibility of the UK government, and funding was allocated across the UK on the basis of where Network Rail and the UK government thought rail investment was most needed. In practice, this meant that the share going to Scotland was substantially
below its population share. Devolution of the grant to Scotland provided Scotland with additional money equal to its population share of the Network Rail grant, boosting the total amount available to spend on services in Scotland.”
link to ifs.org.uk
That, as you will see, is a shortfall in spend from money which is directly identifiable and which one would expect to have been allocated according to population share, in the normal course: it wasn’t before the grant was devolved. It is unfortunate that the sums are not stated but my understanding is that it was around £318 million after the change and I do not know what it was before. Perhaps you can find out?
Colin Rippey says: 16 April, 2015 at 2:32 pm
@Robert Peffers
Okay, I’ll play along.
Please yourself, Sunshine, awa an play wi yersel.
Got it? I’m not playing games.
I deal in facts not daft speculation.
The Scottish per capita GDP is higher than the UK per capita GDP. Scotland has thus contributed more to the UK than Scotland got back from the UK for at lease the past 30 to 40 years. No accountancy prestidigitation can beat real sold true basic figures with no convoluted speculative claims. BTW:
Did you calculate the sum the Treasury takes every year from the independent Scottish Legal system in both court and on-the-spot-fines?
Did you count in the proper share of the Scottish Crown Estate profits from Scottish territory?
Has the charges made by the UK for Scottish generators Electricity Grid connection been factored in? Not forgetting to offset the subsidy paid to southern generators?
Have you subtracted the per capita sum Scots paid for the £4.1 bn London Sewerage Scheme? What of the Scots per Capita Share of the grant made to assist the setting up of Transport for London? How much did you allow for the Scottish contribution towards the London Cross-Rail Scheme – has that been counted?
Just who the hell do you think you are fooling? Now off you go and Play with yourself as you may wish to waste your time playing along but I don’t intend to. You know as well as I do that Westminster has been fiddling the books for as long as there has been a Union.
@Fiona
I think we both agree that the figures being used are one side of the story, the GERS figures paint a picture of Scotland having a deficit much bigger than the UK. I also have agreed with you that if there were any form of FFA negotiations between Holyrood and Westminster that I’m sure that (1) Some of the expenditure attributed to Scotland could be reduced and (2) Holyrood could (almost certainly) have a borrowing arrangement with Scotland to help bridge any deficit gap that would remain.
You are one of the only contributors to this site who does actually produce arguments based on information. I have always believed that in the political arena that almost all arguments are driven by the media’s thirst for asking questions, but if the people being asked the questions choose not to answer them (regardless of how good the answer is) then the media will continue to keep asking (after all, it is the media who pose the questions not anyone else).
If politicians just kept fielding the questions with “answers”, whatever those answers were I believe you’d find the media thirst would be quenched and they’d quickly move on to another question to another party.
(OT but there was an episode of The West Wing years ago when one of the canidates Arnie Vinnick was heading for a victory in the election only to be stopped in his tracks by a Nuclear Accident in his home state. He had been a staunch supporter of nuclear power all his political life and now faced annihilation because of the accident. In the show he decided to stand outside the nuclear plant and field the incessant questions from reporters for something like 4 hours in a “last man standing” stunt, and eventually the questions went away and the reporters started asking “something else”. I know it’s a TV drama but it did strike me at the time that that was the way to handle it, keep talking until there was nothing left to say.)
You have tried to go into detail, I can only say that I don’t think you’ve been able to present a case that does in fact bridge the deficit gap but that’s just my opinion, it’s not based on any actual published figures (all I can base my assumptions on are the published figures from GERS, the IFS figures are really just a “here’s where you’d start from”).
I will try to take some time to read through what you’ve presented, maybe there is a case to say that the deficit gap does not exist. But what we have right now is the figures produced by GERS as what we have to base our assumptions on, there’s nothing else at the moment. Maybe if the SNP took your lead we’d get somewhere and FFA might actually be presentable.
They no nothing else, its a learnt behaviour….
@ Colin Rippey
I have the impression you do not understand what I am saying. I am not disputing the GERS figures for Scotland, though I think they are vastly wrong for all the reasons Robert Peffers gives. As I have said repeatedly you do not have the information and neither do I: I cannot find the figures broken down in that way. If you can that would be very helpful
What I am disputing is the figures for the UK. The claim is that the scottish deficit is worse than the UK deficit and that does not seem to be true. It is dependent on excluding windfall receipts from the borrowing requirement and I can see no reason for doing that. When they are added back the deficit is near enough the same for both countries. What, then, is the problem?
@Fiona
I think I do understand, I think what you’re saying is that GERS presents the GDP % difference between Scotland and the UK by (1) Apportioning expenditure to Scotland that is unclear and may not be appropriate and (2) That GERS presents the UK position “as is” with no real data to suggest that the UK position is a true representation of the UKs real deficit.
You’re suggesting that we should not only consider looking at GERS to close the deficit gap but also examine the UK figures to see if there is in fact not as big a deficit. I think that this is certainly worth examining and what you have pointed out may well be the case, but the biggest issue with this is that for at least the next year Scotland’s revenue will drop quite considerably due to the drop in oil price and this is a pretty big GDP %.
For the year 2014-2015 even though the data has not been published it’s pretty certain that the geographical revenue Scotland would be apportioned from oil & gas would drop by several billion pounds. Perhaps the UK’s revenue will also fall by as big a GDP % to “match up” so to speak, but that is not as clear as what will affect Scotland and will continue to affect Scotland unless the oil price increases (to say nothing to the potential loss of jobs in the oil & gas sector that will almost exclusively affect Scotland).
But…my wider point in all of these comments is that trying deflect the argument on whether or not there is a deficit is the wrong tactic. There should be “as much as possible” discussion on how Holyrood could change the economy and if that entails calling out the UK’s figures to suggest that the deficit gap is not as big then so be it. But you’re the only person really calling that out. Everyone else seems to think that a “spinned one line answer” to FFA is what the tactic should be.
I have repeatedly said that if FFA were to come in then there’s no doubt that some of the expenditure apportioned to Scotland in GERS would be open for negotiation. All of what Robert Peffers states above is what would be up for negotiation.
I’m stated Scotland has been apportioned a revenue for 2013-2014 GERS of £4 billion from oil & gas. Robert disputes this but won’t come up with an answer.
Robert Peffers just cannot bring himself to answer my question on oil & gas. He constantly posts about “Extra-Regio-Territory” but when I’ve asked him directly to explain just how much revenue Scotland would receive if it were to retain all oil & gas revenue he comes back with “more questions” that I’ve already said would be up for negotiation.
@ Colin Rippey
Yes, I am challenging the UK figures, and I have said why. I may be wrong, but so far I have not seen anything to suggest that I am and I will be interested in seeing any information to the contrary.
As I have said repeatedly, I think the whole question of the deficit is a red herring, and has been driven by “media macro”. I have no doubt that the majority of people do believe it matters, but they have no real grasp of the implications of that nor any understanding of the economic reality. The question is not whether the UK can “balance the books”: it is rather about who will shoulder the debt. If the government reaches fiscal balance or surplus, then barring a positive balance of trade (which is vanishingly unlikely) the public will themselves take that debt on. Is that what we really want?
You say that the biggest issue is that Scottish revenue will fall due to falling oil prices. Perhaps it will. I am not particularly worried because the oil price is volatile, and it has been this low many times without all this fuss. I certainly do not agree that is the biggest issue. To me the biggest issue is the absurd focus on abstract numbers rather than on the real economy and the prosperity of the people across the UK.
To illustrate why that is not helpful: it is absolutely true that a fall in oil related revenue will impact on scottish GDP more than on the GDP of the UK: that is inevitable given it is a bigger percentage of Scottish GDP than it of the UK as a whole. But what matters, in my view, is the actual numbers. I find it curious that this is not discussed directly.
I am not prepared to make Robert Peffer’s case for him, but from my perspective the fact is that Scotland does not get this money at present. So the UK has enjoyed 84% more oil revenue for many years than it is entitled to have. In the year we are discussing (2013-14) that sum was 3.36 billion pounds. That is money which the UK would have had to borrow. It is not chicken feed. I fail to see the relevance of expressing it as a % of GDP, because we do not spend percentages. Indeed the OBR states Our latest forecast
suggests that by 2014-15 the deficit will have been reduced by 41 per cent in cash terms and by 51 per cent as a share of GDP. Which seems the more important to you – the abstract number or the money?
@Fiona
If FFA were implemented then stuff would have to happen.
Scotland would retain all of it’s revenue including oil & gas, this would amount to say £52 billion (let’s say that the fall in revenue from oil & gas is only £2 billion down).
Scotland would have expenditure, let’s say that Holyrood is able to negotiate the expenditure on “shared costs” down a few billion so rather than spending £66 billion it spends £62 billion (so the negotiations have shaved £4 billion off the costs here).
So in the scenario, Scotland’s deficit would be £10 billion (and I think you’d agree that this is probably on the generous side).
So what would Holyrood do to bridge the gap. It would turn to Westminster for borrowing which is fine as almost every government does borrow.
Westminster would indeed have to borrow as it too has a deficit, Westminster would lose ALL the revenue from Scotland (including oil & gas of £3.6 billion as you state above) but Westminster would also not have the expenditure of Scotland and no matter what way you slice it this would be a net gain for Westminster. Westminster’s loss of revenue from Scotland would be offset by the expenditure of Scotland (by quite a few billion).
Even with this net gain Westminster would still have a deficit. Westminster would borrow to bridge the deficit. Holyrood would receive a share of the borrowing.
This is the point where any perceived gap would hit Holyrood.
The figures I’ve put down above (rough figures of course) say that Holyrood would have a £10 billion deficit on a GDP of $150 billion – so a % GDP of 6.7% (quite a big drop from the current over 8%).
It would come down to how much Westminster chose to borrow and then pass on to Holyrood. I know that you are saying if we look at the figures from the UK and try to argue that the deficit gap is not that big, this is moot if Westminster does not borrow enough to bridge the deficit gap Holyrood faces.
If the Holyrood deficit gap of 6.7% is to be bridged by a borrowing share from Westminster, this would mean that Westminster would be borrowing the same 6.7% of it’s own GDP. The UK borrowing was reported in GERS 2013-2104 as being £97.3 billion, 5.6% of GDP.
So any deficit gap would have to be financed by higher borrowing, if as you say the UK figures demand closer scrutiny then this would be illustrated by the fact that Westminster’s borrowing would increase from the 5.6% of GDP to something higher.
I’ve speculated here that FFA would be a net gain for Westminster, thus reducing the deficit and therefore the borrowing required. Both the Tories and Labour have stated they won’t increase the deficit.
If as you say there is revenue attributed to Westminster that is “one off” or even “a paper exercise” it would be apparent if Westminster did borrow a higher % of its GDP.
This is why I tend to concentrate on Scotland’s position, this comment thread has been about FFA and how would Holyrood deal with the “black hole”. It fundamentally comes down to how much would Westminster pass on to Holyrood from the monies it borrows.
As I have already said, I do not think that there is any difference between the deficits of the two countries. If my calculation is wrong do please demonstrate where and how it is wrong.
As I have also said, the deficit as a percentage of GDP is irrelevant to my mind: why do you think it matters?
@Fiona
I think I have shown that your calculations are wrong. You stated that if the UK did not have the £3.6 billion oil & gas revenue it would have to borrow this amount. I have pointed out that the UK would have NONE of Scotland’s revenue and neither ANY of its expenditure, giving it a net gain – and therefore having to borrow less, quite a bit less actually.
This would in fact widen the deficit gap between the UK and Scotland.
The reason I use % of GDP is to illustrate that when the UK borrows it borrows an amount and then gives Scotland a “share” of the borrowing. I am saying that the “share” of borrowing would be based on a % of GDP.
If you don’t want to use % GDP to illustrate how Scotland’s “share” of the borrowing would be calculated how do you want to work out the share? A per capita share perhaps? It would have to be worked out using some sort of calculation that was acceptable to the UK taxpayer and not some arbitrary figure. How do you think the borrowing would function?
Remember this is FFA we’re talking about here, it would still be the UK who are ultimately borrowing on behalf of the entire UK and Scottish economy, the UK taxpayer would be the Lender of last resort and it is not unreasonable to assume that the UK would negotiate pretty strict borrowing rules with Scotland
It’s entirely possible that a borrowing arrangement could be entered into where Scotland gets a bigger “share” of the borrowing than it would using a % GDP or per capita, maybe paying higher interest.
FFA cannot work unless Scotland can borrow directly. That is an absolute minimum requirement, and it is not going to be agreed, IMO. I think I already stated that
As to your demonstration of what is wrong with my figures, I don’t really follow. I have shown that the difference in deficit between the two countries is broadly non existent. If that is not correct can you show where it is wrong please?
@Fiona
FFA cannot work unless Scotland can borrow directly. That is an absolute minimum requirement, and it is not going to be agreed, IMO. I think I already stated that
But within strict limits imposed by Westminster yes? Limits based on “something”, either a % of GDP or a per capita % increase over the UK.
Otherwise what’s to stop Holyrood borrowing and borrowing? How would the currency markets react? Who would be the lender of last resort? Would the entity who is buying the debt be willing to accept that the Scottish debt is as “safe” as the UK debt, would they insist upon a higher interest rate? (hate to say it but this is the independence currency question all over again).
As to your demonstration of what is wrong with my figures, I don’t really follow. I have shown that the difference in deficit between the two countries is broadly non existent. If that is not correct can you show where it is wrong please?
Fair enough, if you don’t agree with what I have said in the most recent comment then fine. This started with the GERS figures and the IFS projections of a £7.6 billion deficit on day one of FFA. You have pointed out that there is scope within the GERS figures to suggest that the UK deficit is in fact bigger than is presented (due to the many items you highlighted) and that the Scottish deficit is smaller than is presented (again due to the items you and other people have highlighted).
You’re saying that a combination of these two points would effectively align the deficits of both Scotland and the UK and that the figures presented in GERS are incorrect and therefore the IFS projection of a £7.6 billion deficit is incorrect.
I am arguing that I don’t believe that there’s enough room in the figures to suggest that the deficit differences presented in the GERS figures would be offset by the amounts you are suggesting.
Ultimately when push comes to shove the whatever deficits there are will be met by borrowing. Scotland will get a share of the borrowing (or maybe be given the power to borrow more). The UK deficit will absolutely be covered by borrowing, it remains to be seen if the deficit that Scotland would have would be covered by its “share” of the borrowing or even the possible borrowing arrangement.
Unless this actually plays out neither of us really know, all that is presented at the moment is the snapshot projections of a £7.6 billion deficit by the IFS on day one of FFA.