The rule of law
A large and imposing statue built in 1974 still stands today on Clyde Street in Glasgow. It depicts a woman called Dolores Ibarruri, known as “La Pasionaria”, who was one of the heroes of the anti-fascist resistance in Spain in the 1930s.
The statue was funded by “the British Labour Movement”, but Conservative councillors in the city protested angrily when it was erected and vowed to tear it down if they ever controlled the council (which cynical readers might consider an empty threat).
How times change.
On a smaller scale, a bench in Princes Street Gardens bears a plaque in the name of the Edinburgh City Labour Party reading “In memory of those who left this city to serve with the International Brigade in the Spanish Civil War”.
But as with so many other things, the Labour politicians of Scotland’s biggest cities now walk in step with their Tory counterparts when it comes to the subject of fighting incipient fascism in Spain.
Scottish Labour – with the sole honourable exceptions of MEPs Catherine Stihler and David Martin – have been almost totally silent as decent humans across the world have condemned Spain’s brutal oppression and persecution of the entirely peaceful and democratic Catalan independence movement.
(Imprisoning all your political opponents on trumped-up charges of treason of course being Rule 1, Clause 1, Paragraph 1 of “Fascism For Beginners”, closely followed by trashing polling stations and beating seven bells out of passive protestors.)
Incredibly, on the few occasions anyone from the party HAS spoken out, it’s been to defend the Madrid government as it arrests and imprisons democratically-elected politicians for the medieval crimes of “rebellion” and “sedition” because they carried out the policies they stood for election on, citing “the rule of law” as their justification.
The Scottish Tories, naturally, are enthusiastically on board with this view.
And while it seems absurdly unnecessary to ennumerate all the gigantic gaping flaws in that argument – because a small child, or an unusually intelligent badger, could list them for you in 10 seconds – it appears that they’re beyond Scottish Labour’s finest minds, so forgive us if we take a moment or two to spell out the bleeding obvious.
1. ROSA PARKS
Arrested in 1955 for a violation of segregation laws in the Montgomery City code which prohibited black people from riding at the front of buses. Parks was never actually convicted, as the law was repealed after a mass boycott before her case could be judged, but she suffered discrimination and economic hardships for many years as a result of her protest.
2. NELSON MANDELA
First arrested and convicted in 1962 for inciting workers’ strikes, Mandela spent 28 years in prison – mainly in a tiny barren cell on Robben Island – during which time it was illegal to even publish photographs of him in South Africa.
The Labour-run council in Glasgow renamed St George’s Place – home of the South African consulate – to “Nelson Mandela Place” in 1986 to publicly register their objection to his continued incarceration, before he was finally released in 1990 and became the country’s President two years later.
Tories, naturally, took a different position. Murdo Fraser, who we met above, was part of a group of Tory students who called for Mandela’s execution.
And the UK Prime Minister in 1986, Margaret Thatcher, denounced Mandela as a “terrorist”, a description we must assume Ian Murray endorsed at the time. The ANC leader had, after all, been convicted in a court of law.
3. SOPHIE SCHOLL
21-year-old-student Scholl‘s crime in early 1943 was simply to print and distribute some anti-Nazi leaflets at the University of Munich. She was tried and convicted by judge Roland Friesler under the rule of German law in the notorious People’s Court, and executed by guillotine just four days after her arrest.
Ian Murray was yet to be born, but we assume he would have nodded gravely and regretfully acknowledged that justice had had to be done, and that the law of her country must be respected even if he personally disagreed with the verdict.
4. THE SUFFRAGETTES
The Women’s Social and Political Union of the early 20th Century, which pursued the modest demand that women should be given the vote, was one of the most militant and unlawful protest groups in British history.
The organisation’s Wikipedia entry notes of their activities that:
Countless Suffragettes were arrested, convicted and jailed for these offences, and were often brutally treated in prison when they continued to resist the rightful authorities, mainly through hunger strikes. (The barbaric practice of force-feeding prisoners continues today in the US concentration camp at Guantanamo Bay.)
Weirdly, though, just a few weeks ago Ian Murray penned an effusive tribute to the Suffragette movement for the Edinburgh Evening News. We can only surmise that he was unaware of their criminal record.
5. MOHANDAS “MAHATMA” GANDHI
The world-renowned icon of non-violent protest faced considerable obstacles to achieving India’s independence from the UK as a result of the 1919 Anarchical And Revolutionary Crimes Act (also known as the Rowlatt Act or the Black Act), which imbued colonial authorities with powers of “preventive indefinite detention, incarceration without judicial review or any need for a trial”.
He was convicted and sentenced to six years imprisonment for “sedition” in 1922 – the same crime, quite by coincidence, with which Spain is charging Catalan politicians. When he led a peaceful mass march against a salt tax in 1930, over 60,000 of the marchers were arrested and jailed.
Gandhi was arrested once again in 1931 for agitating for independence, leading Winston Churchill to fulminate against what he called “the Hindu Mussolini”. He would be arrested and imprisoned several more times before India secured its independence in 1947, and was assassinated less than six months later.
We can only guess that Ian Murray would have felt that the lawbreaker brought all of these events on himself with his pacifistic shenanigans.
6. THE TOLPUDDLE MARTYRS
In March 1834, a group of agricultural labourers in Dorset formed a society that would in modern terms be recognised as a trade union. (The entity which would of course eventually give birth to the Labour Party itself.)
A local landowner protested that the oath the men had undertaken was illegal, and they were duly arrested, tried, convicted and sentenced to seven years’ transportation and penal servitude in Australia.
The law on such matters in 19th-century Britain was absolutely clear, and the populace was reminded of it sternly and regularly:
Presumably, therefore, were the UK’s Conservative government to enact even more draconian anti-union legislation in the near future, Ian Murray would take a similarly unforgiving attitude to anyone disobeying it.
7. OSKAR SCHINDLER
Got away with it. We’re sure that as a responsible citizen Ian Murray would have grassed him up to the SS if he could have, though. The law’s the law, right?
8. MARTIN LUTHER KING
The civil rights activist was arrested no fewer than 29 times during the 1950s and 1960s as he fought for equality for non-white citizens in the US – mostly for civil disobedience – and served numerous terms of imprisonment.
From one of his jail cells King penned a famous letter on the subject of whether the civil rights movement should obey the law, including these words:
King was assassinated in 1968, just eight years before Ian Murray’s birth, so unfortunately the MP for Edinburgh South never had the chance to disassociate himself from King’s tactics on social media.
9. JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH
A populist civil rights campaigner in the Kingdom of Judah (now Israel), Christ was arrested in the year 33, and tried and convicted of a contemporary equivalent of treason by a Jewish court.
The court then handed the religious activist over to the Roman legal authorities for punishment, who pronounced and carried out a sentence of death.
Almost 2000 years later, the UK still commemorates these events by providing citizens such as Ian Murray with a public holiday (this very day, as chance would have it) on which to reflect responsibly on the merits of the rule of law.
10. JEREMY CORBYN, LEADER OF THE LABOUR PARTY
Well, this is awkward.
We’re a wee bit confused now. We’re sure there’s just been a miscommunication somewhere. We’ll get back to you when we get to the bottom of it, readers.
Everything Hitler did was legal
He made sure of that because, he wrote the Laws
Thank You Rev, I needed that.
There seems to be a mental illness sweeping the western world right now.
Of course we can all be confident that Murray and co will be equally vociferous about upholding the Spanish constitution when an emboldened Spain reincorporated Gibraltar.
What a prat Ian Murray is. I imagine him seeing this and thinking, ‘Oh, didn’t make these sort of connections’. Does he not engage his brain before expressing a thought or idea.
And as for Murdo Fraser, well……………!
Tour de force Stuart. What a great article.
Destroy Scotland’s fake Labour Party!
There was a much more nasty tweet from McTernan, and Aamer Anwar pulled him up on it.
link to twitter.com
You’re forgetting that law-abiding Ian Murray MP has been a victim and is now a survivor of a particularly vicious crime when he had to go through the hell of having a sticker stuck on his office door. That may account for his conformist right-wing views.
Tony Benn always used to write in his diaries about enjoying coming to Scotland because the political and social atmosphere was freer than in England.
Whereas Murdo Fraser feels well at home in Rajoy’s Spain.
Although presumably he tones down the Queen’s XI talk.
Sad. Really sad.
Labour WAS once a party of principle. The Tories always had a predilection to shoot first and ask questions later.
The problem lies in the fact they are making several errors.
Spain may well advertise itself as a European democracy, but in fact is run by the baton carriers of Franco. It in fact only lives up to Democratic values as long as it suits.
Supression is the tool of choice, for those citizens who hold alternate views.
Labour is no longer the party of Socialism. It has been infiltrated and occupied by those who see a well paid position and who have aspirations for themselves rather than the people they serve. It is a career rather than a vocation.
The main thing though is that Labour can put aside all notions of justice rather than just the law because Clara is a Nationalist. It is not necessary for them to judge her character or look at the mitigating circumstances in her political life of why she is being persecuted by Spain. She is a Nationalist and therefore deserves to suffer.
The hatred to maintain that stance is quite something.
That is what we are up against. Undiluted hatred.
That ultimately detroit the hater rather than the recipient.
I think poor wee Ian is still suffering the hugely inhumane attack on him some years ago. Obviously all the help and assistance he has had since this terrible incident is not really helping him much at all.
Stickergate any one?
link to drive.google.com
Now that’s what constitutes yer akchul OOFT!
Neatly done Rev.
Ahh… Rev, you seem to have two item 4s in the article – the Suffragettes and Gandhi.
I presume that this is memetic contamination from reading John McTernan’s tweet, where he has two item 6s
I wonder if any of these guys realise that the holocaust was legal.
Then by their terms, wouldn’t that make the concentration camps perfectly alright?
Good lord, how can they not get this, it’s basic morality that popular approval or lawful athority doesn’t justify actions, merely grants the power to carry out an action.
I was wondering who you could possible follow Jesus with – and on Good Friday! Love it.
BTW This BBC Crossing continents is worth a listen (actually good journalism)
link to bbc.co.uk
If you are siding with the people who are saying “It would be better if we didn’t dig up the mass graves and identify the bodies” you are probably on the wrong side!
And not forgetting of course Thomas Muir of Huntershill, transported for sedition from Edinburgh in 1793.
Presumably Mr Murray would like Muir’s obelisk on Calton Hill demolished?
To get to the bottom of this farce you need a very big mechanical shovel to dig to the required depth .That is if you can ever reach the depth, which I doubt.
Nice one Stu – about time someone put an article such as this together!
We can only assume that Mr Murray didn’t pay much attention in history class, doesn’t have a very good understanding of political struggles, isn’t too clear how the law operates – in fact, what exactly qualifies him for his current position?
“Ahh… Rev, you seem to have two item 4s in the article – the Suffragettes and Gandhi.”
CLEARLY YOU HAVE MISCOUNTED.
I have been reading articles on this site for many years, Stuart. But I have to say that this is the best forensic destruction of the idiots in the Tory and Labour movements that I have seen. Ian and Murdo will have plenty of room on the sun beds. Because, like me, many will not visit Spain again until this criminal behaviour by their government ends. Condoning racism is how it all started in Germany. Rationalising away injustice in the way Murray is doing- can be found by watching numerous documentaries that outline how Hitler was empowered and emboldened. These are available every night on Murray’s telly. I will never return to labour. I am so sad that they have moved away from the ethos and philosophy that they had when I was a lad 50 years ago. The great speeches I saw from jimmy Reid and Iimmy Airlie. Honourable men who would cry if they could see the dicks that have stolen their party.
Mr Peffers has refused to apologise to me for a completely over the top attack on my character.
What a horrible individual you are.
Why he is attacking me I don’t know. But the guy is in urgent need of medical attention.
Or if he is on medication he needs to up the dosage.
Talk about Paranoid. You are a world champion in feelings of Paranoia Mr Peffers.
I asked you to ignore my posts, and what do you do, you continued to verbally abuse me.
If you have a problem with another poster then please take it up with him. Keep me out of your personal in-fighting.
I don’t have the time to keep answering to you, so from now on you ignore me and I will gladly ignore you.
I can assure you of that.
Excellent post!
If the likes of Ian Murray cannot see that they are not only on the wrong side of this argument but severely lacking in any form of human capacity for rational thought, they are beyond saving.
The law can be an ass but in this case some of those who believe in following it against all human instinct are bigger asses.
Your posting hits even closer to the target than you think, Stu.
The Franco/Fascist dimension to what is happening in Spain runs deep because those currently in power hate the fact that it is Catalonia which has been the centre of the ‘remember’ approach to the civil war rather than the ‘forget’ one.
Every turn of every trowel in every grave is a slap in the face to the ruling party in Madrid.
link to archive.is
link to archive.is (note the images are omitted from the archived page)
Keep up the excellent work Stu.
Ian Murray
Tough on crime.
Tough on the causes of crime.
Tough on those wrongfully accused of crime.
I wonder if Ian Murray was a Labour member when Margaret Thatcher brought in laws that were designed to hurt both the Labour Party and the Trade Union Movement?
I wonder if he condemned the Miners as law breakers, like the Thatcher and the right-wing press did?
In fact, we need to assume that Ian Murray will refuse to disobey any law that the Tories might bring in after Brexit, no matter how it will impact Scotland and his own constituents.
How feeble do Labour have to be, before they loose the last 25% or so of their support?
The whole point about Carla is that she is obeying the rule of law. She handed herself in when asked, handed in her passport, has been given bail and is preparing to defend herself in a court of Law to test the case for her being extradited. As she is entitled.
All legal and above reproach.
Excellent Rev.
For me it shows how far ‘labour’ has gone downhill and moved to the right. As a young man I visited Spain a few times when Franco was still alive. With locals you could talk about football but nothing else– after all who was listening? – Spain unfortunately is heading back down the road to a fascism with smiles and the so called british labour party is a disgrace. Many of the old labour supporters will look on in horror and disgust at this. For the tories well they are tories. They will remove all of our rights as citizens or as workers piecemeal post brexit. Don’t you realise we work for them. Do as you are told its the law we will be told. Murray and his ilk will meakly say Yes Sir/Miss where do you want me to sit.
Uncomfortable truths.
In 1986 the Labour party gave Nelson Mandela the honour of naming a street after him. At that time I was serving with a man who came from our sister regiment in Rhodesia, he told me “what are they doing this man is a terrorist, he formed a terrorist organization and has blown up shopping centers without warning killing innocents, are you Jocks mad”.
I said he has renounced violence? and just wants peace?. he said “no he hasn’t Its like calling a road in Scotland after Gerry Adams”. And until the day he died Nelson never did make any apologizes for the ANC violence.
I mentioned this in the comment section in the National as to why we praise Mandela but are reticent to do the same to IRA leaders who actually put down their arms and engaged in the political process and was promptly banned.
Given the above inconvenient truth the Labour party’s silence is even more stupendously idiotic.
A very moving read, incredible bravery against the rule of Law. On balanced though unionist SLab dudes like Murray or even a plant like Scot Arthur, hate Scottish democracy so hard, they’ve lost all sense of justice, freedom and reason.
Nicely done, though I think you might be expecting a bit much of BLiS___d. Hint – they take their orders from London. They have zero autonomy.
Btw, measuring democracy isn’t straight forward. For example, Britain would traditionally be considered a democracy, though closer inspection would undermine such a simplistic assumption (see Scotland’s democratic deficit, for example). IMHO, Britain is an ambiguous democracy (see Scotland’s democratic deficit, for example), heading towards a failed democracy (see Brexit, for example).
How to measure democracy
link to statslife.org.uk
Conceptualizing and Measuring Democracy: A New Approach
link to people.bu.edu
Measuring Democracy
A Bridge between Scholarship and Politics
link to muse.jhu.edu
proctor Lewis
in the end did not Madela support peace? One persons Stern Gang in Palestine/ Israel is another’s freedom fighter.
On the other hand the ballot box in Northern Ireland is better than chucking a pipe bomb. At some point in conflict most people wish peace.
just sayin…
@G fae the block,
There is actually a video circulating of Marco Rajoy being asked about embezzlement. Mr Rajoy emphasises the charges are about sedition and that no monies were missing.
Perhaps finding out that most European countries would not extradite for sedition made Mr Rajoy change his story somewhat.
Tories & Labour. British Unionist Fuds. Or, BUFs as their acronym-sakes were called, back in the 1930s.
Excellent article thanks Stuart.
That pic of Ohhh Corbbyyyynnn, looks a wee bit staged. I am sure it’s genuine though, because in those days the police didn’t wear full body armour and beat the s**t out of those who were demonstrating against injustice. It all looks civilised and he looks a bit resigned to his fate there!
Didn’t A.Darling march with the miners as well? Makes you wonder eh.
Just as an aside, I did my thesis on American artist, Ben Shahn, who was very political in his art. He did some work on Sacco and Vanzetti, 2 ‘anarchists’ who were accused of murder, and who were executed on what were clearly trumped up charges. They were executed for their political beliefs and because they were immigrants.
Good to read the article in The National by Andrew Tickell on the Clara Ponsati case. Anyone interested should have a read of it.
Sorry, I forgot this quote.
link to people.bu.edu
“Ahh… Rev, you seem to have two item 4s in the article – the Suffragettes and Gandhi.”
CLEARLY YOU HAVE MISCOUNTED.
1. I know what I saw.
1. As befits the evil Cybernat General, you cheated.
2. You should be ashamed of yourself.
3. So there.
@Proctor Lewis,
My best mate at school, Sean came to Scotland from Rhodesia with his parents when his father became the chief air traffic controller at Glasgow airport.
He told me that his grandfather in Rhodesia had often told him never to take cheek from a “black”. When Sean asked him what to do about it,his grandfather told him to “shoot the black bastard”. Most boys and men in Rhodesia were gun proficient and had access to firearms.
These were real threats and not empty rhetoric.
Hamish
Yes he did, but on his terms.
if The S.A government was to revert then he retained the right to armed struggle.
He never went back on retaining that right.
So many to choose from. Have Labour renounced the Red Clydesider and advocate of Scottish independence, John MacLean? Arrested for sedition and force fed in prison which no doubt caused his early death at the age of 44.
Ian Murray must denounce him.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Assange is still being held, after Sweden withdrew a European arrest warrant for rape. No apology from Sweden. It was all a just big mistake by Sweden apparently. Dont laugh, we’ve all boobed at some time, left the key in the door, left the cooker on, filed a european arrest warrant to deport someone on rape charges…
On the flip side (pun intended Alistair) everything Westminster MPs have ever claimed on expenses is perfectly legal and above board.
And no’ forgetting ‘The Scottish Radicals’
link to johneckersley.wordpress.com
As someone upthread said, A Tour de Force, Rev.
Mr Murray – you should be thoroughly ashamed at how far you have drifted from your Labour roots.
Didn’t Labour recently laud that infamous criminal Mary Barbour? I think they have even unveiled a statue to her. She helped organise rent strikes. I’m pretty certain encouraging people to break the law is itself an offence. Also, marching through the streets of Govan banging pots and pans on the approach of bailiffs is surely illegal.
No more meek acceptance of criminality, Labour must speak out.
link to en.wikipedia.org
link to thenational.scot
Good balanced and informed article from lallands Peat worrier on the legal elements at play, rather than wallowing in the political rhetoric.
Pretty much an open goal for Labour. What a shock that they’d miss it completely. They don’t even have the excuse of being in government and having to ‘make difficult decisions’.
The spirit of any law is paramount.
The written law is usually a poor fucking effort to encapsulate the spirit of the law. The written law will never exceed the spirit of the law but is predominantly doomed to fall short at every level leaving room for misinterpretation and misrepresentation.
Exactly the reason we have weasels like Murray, Fraser and McTernan devoid of integrity and sneaking in and around the written word hoping to avoid anything that resembles honour.
Good balanced and informed article from lallands Peat worrier on the legal elements at play, rather than wallowing in the political rhetoric.”
What’s wrong with political rhetoric? Fair enough the author of your National link has to kick it all off somewhere. Law and political rhetoric have clear boundaries, at the courtroom door. But that shouldn’t diminish the rhetoric, if only because one writes the other.
I’m in Spain from time to time. The young people where I visit refer to Spain as Espanistan, a sarcastic reference to the corrupt Stans.
A brief glance at El Pais most days shows the progress in corruption cases concerning the villages, the cities, the political parties and yes, the Royal family.(This involved the Infanta answering “I don’t know”over 100 times to the investigating judge).
The Guardia Civil, which battered people in Barcelona, has the same name as under Franco and their vehicles have the Roman insignia of fasces from which Fascism drew inspiration.
there is another issue here… of course politicians must not break the law. similarly the state must not use that exact same law as a political tool / shield.
in terms of extradition the Spanish law is irrelevant.
what matters is that…
1) an equivalent offense exists under Scots law
and
2) UK courts are convinced Clara Ponsati will get a fair trial free from political influence.
D.
I would say to John McTernan (quoted in Rev’s post above) that for McTernan to be consistent he would have to say that discrimination against Jews, Gypsies and “Blacks” was perfectly legitimate under the Nuremberg Laws in 1930’s Germany.
Ian Murray is not a socialist hes a facist and he has proven himself to be so. Hes so left wing i am now sure him and toxic Murdo are the same person .
As a young man my journeyman/mentor was Jimmy Alexander who fought with the International Brigade. A true socialist who ignored narrow party politics.
Ibarruri’s famous line No Pasaran has been used for a new film “Nae Pasaran” about the Rolls Royce East Kilbride workers who refused to service the engines for Pinochets Hunter Fighters.
I seen the film on Sunday and it should go on general release in September. This story is a great example of principles first. It is such a pity Scottish media ignores such important history.
IB and the Rolls Royce workers are a very different breed from what Labour has become.
You can produce all the evidence in the world Stu but you’ll never get the Labour party to take the same position as the SNP
They’d rather commit Seppuku!
That’s Japanese for rip your own guts out for those who didn’t know
Anyone interested in civil rights should watch the movie 13th which is on Netflix.
If you think Spain’s bad it ain’t got nothing on the land of the free.
@Northern Rock says :30 March, 2018 at 1:55 pm:
“Mr Peffers has refused to apologise to me for a completely over the top attack on my character.
What attack on your character would that be, Rock North?
I attacked your comment and your attempt to stir up unrest.
“What a horrible individual you are.”
Now there we have Argumentum ad Hominem and we all know whose style that is. You attack the man and not the argument – as usual.
“Why he is attacking me I don’t know. But the guy is in urgent need of medical attention.”
Sure I am, I’m a physically disabled OAP and certainly I am on medications – pain killers and other things to alleviate physical injuries. Did you, perhaps mean psychiatric counselling? I’d venture the layman’s opinion that you, rather than I, require such help. You rather exhibit paranoia in your reply made here.
“Or if he is on medication he needs to up the dosage.
Indeed so but there are danger limits in the dosages of pain killers and I have no experience of opiates or mind altering substances – not even alcohol- as alcohol and pain killers just do not mix.
“Talk about Paranoid. You are a world champion in feelings of Paranoia Mr Peffers.”
Do you actually know what Paranoia is, Rock?
Let me enlighten you:-
Paranoia is an instinct, or thought process, believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear.
Often to the point of delusion and irrationality. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory beliefs of conspiracy concerning a perceived threat towards oneself.
As our USAsian friends would put it, “Everyone is out to get me”, and in this post I’m replying to you are decidedly showing such tendencies.
“I asked you to ignore my posts, and what do you do, you continued to verbally abuse me.”
Ah! There it is again, the same basic mistakes you made using your other nom de guerre. I cannot verbally abuse you on a textual medium like wings.
“If you have a problem with another poster then please take it up with him. Keep me out of your personal in-fighting.
I don’t have the time to keep answering to you, so from now on you ignore me and I will gladly ignore you.”
I don’t have problems with any poster. Whatever made you imagine I had? By the way, it isn’t personal as I was countering your arguments and you deceptions, not attacking your person.
In any case it seems to me, and apparently to others, that if you are not posting under several different names then there seems to be a group of commenters closely following the same agenda and it follows very similar style and in the sentiments expressed and usually attacks the person and not the argument.
I highlighted the one where you accuse me of being a verbal bully.
First, I’m not attempting to bully you by showing your arguments are wrong or at least they oppose mine – that is genuine debate.
Secondly, I cannot verbally bully you on a textual blog.
Thirdly while I attempt to counter you arguments you immediately attack me as a person, then mistakenly attempting to imply I require psychiatric attention by claiming I need medical attention and seem to imagine that medications only mean for mental health.
These mistakes have all been the forte of several other comments made under different names but all follow the same style of a person many commenters claim to be a troll.
So it looks rather as if when I, and others, do ignore your comments as you request here, that you will pop up next with a different nickname and post the same old pish under that new nickname.
Restless for change. I can see Scotland being a beacon now, thanks Rev.
Remember – Labour fled Scotland for London and money.
Heedtracker – the political rhetoric is pointless as this is a legal argument, not a political one. Politicians meddling in the rule of law is not a good look.
Doug Bryce – please read the link I posted above. Your point 1 is wrong, your second point is not quite right either, as it is more to ascertain if the charges at raised to persecute her based on her political beliefs, rather than political influence on the juducial process
Labour in Scotland, with some individual exceptions, has sold its soul to Westminster’s britnat devil.
Some of you will know I lived in Spain for over a dozen years
This is not a case of just Catalonia not liking the Spanish government, even the Spanish don’t like the Spanish government, they all know what they are and if you ask them randomly, unlike the media, you’ll get the same raised eybrows and exhale of breath between the lips…at best
What’s going on in Spain isn’t the Spanish people who I always found very much like us, a great sense of humour and always ready to laugh, this badness is purely political power gone nuts
Hey! just like the Tory party right here would do, and still might if they thought they could get away with it, and they still might try…
Surprised? don’t be!
And we’ve forgotten James Purlie Wilson,the aged Strathaven weaver and church elder,hanged and then beheaded at Glasgow Green on 30th August 1820 after he led the men of Strathaven to the Cathkin Braes behind a banner “Scotland Free or a Desert”.The late stalwart Cllr Jim Mitchell campaigned to find his body which eventually was identified in Strathaven cemetery minus head. Baird, Hardie and Purlie Wilson,all executed in 1820, are written out of Scottish history. Significantly the 1820 Rising was infiltrated and marched into the arms of waiting troops. So what’s changed?
Gfaetheblock says:
30 March, 2018 at 3:25 pm
Heedtracker – the political rhetoric is pointless as this is a legal argument, not a political one. Politicians meddling in the rule of law is not a good look.
Is your last line there, not showing or underlining the whole point of this one WoS article?
Politics is Law and vice versa.
But we do have some interesting yoonster political characters. Plants like Scot Arthur are both terrifying and ridiculous to twitter follow. Ian Murray seems to be able to hold on to the Morningside tory vote, and unionist ofcourse. Its not that he’s a political heavyweight genius, he just has to do stuff like this,
link to wingsoverscotland.com
It looks future Lord Ian of Morningside is doing his bit for the fashion company below, in that photo opportunity. Oddly, I can’t find their union jack suit, modelled so fetchingly by sexy Ian.
link to opposuits.co.uk
I urge the UK Labour Party to expel this man Murray from the party.
He is clearly not a Lbour man. He is a Tory, and that’s what got him elected in the leafy suburbs.
Where does McTernan get his cash? For whom is he working?
He is yet another Far Right Tory peddling the notion that he’s a labour Man.
If there is anybody left propping up the Labour Branch Office, get a fucking grip.
We need out of thid corrupt little |Union that spawned pond life like McTernan and Murray.
Nope it looks like that the suit company that flogged future Sir Ian’s union jack suits, or at least got him to model their suits, no longer makes union jack suits. Tbf, Sir Ian probably isn’t their catalogue male model type.
Wonder if they asked Sir Ian to model this?
link to opposuits.co.uk
or this,
link to opposuits.co.uk
and this.
link to opposuits.co.uk
Heedtracker – no, completely the opposite. The Catalans are protected by Scottish, UK, European and Spanish law. If they are convicted then all those legal entities will support the conviction. Comparing this to Nazi Germany, 19th century England etc. is absurd
You only need to see the Unionists of all creeds saying similar things as Murray to see just why the UK is f..cked, there are no morals, there is no empathy, nothing but power and greed.
Murray himself is, and always has been a trough chaser, nothing else matters. That is the “Union” we live in, we really, really, need to rise and bin the whole lot. We can be different and better than them, by showing morals and respect for others. Or we will be f..ced along with them.
Gfaetheblock
OK. But where on earth is the much fabled European Convention on Human rights here?
Can governments of an EU member state legally declare opposition politicians and their supporters illegal rebels and hunt them down across the Europe and beyond?
Looks like it.
I voted Labour for a long time, that was until 2012 council elections in Scotland. I remember my wife saying “we’ll have to go now and vote else we’ll miss it.
I sat there then said to her “I’m not going, I have no one to vote for”.
I’d became disillusioned with Labour and no longer knew what they stood for after the Blair and Brown years in government. It seems now though that I was right to be disillusioned as even the party themselves do not appear to have a purpose.
I’d never voted for another party and wasn’t ready to do so then, not until 2013 did I realise that Independence was the right thing for Scotland if we wanted a party that represented the views of Scottish voters.
I’m a changed man in my political beliefs since then and I know I have done the right thing when you read the tripe that the likes of Ian Murray, John McTernan or the current leader, whatsisface have to say.
Labour in Scotland are still a party in decline, I hope more of their voters like me will become ex-voters and support the only party than can gain Indepndence for Scotland and that is the SNP.
Independence is where it’s at, unjust laws are a result of an unjust parliament, we have that in the here and now. An Independent Scotland will make her own laws once again over all matters and be all the better for it.
Fortunately I haven’t given up hope on the Scottish legal system and fully believe that the EU warrant against Carla Ponssti will be dismissed. Just pray that this confidence will be justified.
Lets not forget Andrew Hardie or John Baird executed for demanding their political rights.
Nor Thomas Muir of Huntershill.
link to digital.nls.uk
Murdo Fraser tweets to say he agrees with Brian Wilson’s Scotsman article that it is inaccurate and hurtful to call Spain fascist, given the country’s past.
What’ll be then Murdo?
Liberal Spain with it’s unchangeable constitution that denies the right of self-determination and Liberal Spain with it’s political prisoners kept in unheated cells.
There Murdo. Is that the sort of diplomatic language you want?
Number 9, I nearly splurted out my Tea – From 1 to 8, from worse to worser
Then number 9 … BOOM!
Thanks Rev!
Remember how Franco, his fascists, aristocrats, and other right wing allies came to power in Spain. They overthrew the government by using colonial troops. They probably broke every law on Spain’s statute books.
When Spain moved from a fascist dictatorship to a democratic monarchy, they missed out on an essential step – they should have purged government bodies of elements of the old regime. Chile made a much better job of making fascists pay for their crimes.
Also, as I understand it, fascists had a lot of say in the drafting of the new constitution and the way the new regime would function.
From a Scottish perspective, it is utterly disgraceful that BritNats side with a regime with what seems like a great deal of legacy fascism. And to make it worse, they project their views on the UK Union onto the Spanish system rather than call out unacceptable behaviour like any civilised persons should/would.
“I’m Spartacus!”
“No I’m Spartacus!”
“Don’t listen to them, I’m Spartacus!”
“I’m Spartacus I tell you!”
“Over here, I’m Spartacus!”
“I’m Spartacus!”
“I’m Ian Murray, that’s Spartacus!”
Brilliant piece Stu, just brilliant. Sums up my views perfectly.
In addition to this site I also stray onto the pages of The Guardian on a regular basis. You know, that great defender of liberty and democracy. They’ve given the job of keeping readers up to date on recent developments to Sev of all people. There’s been no editorial comment whatsoever.
They are caught in a constitutional paradox, frightened to say anything about Spain that can be quoted against them when the next Scottish Indy Ref happens, it will be too soon for any comments not to be relevant. British Nationalism always trumps integrity with Labour, Tory & LibDems.
Remember the Labour support for the Tory ‘now is not the time’ is politically no different to the Spanish position. A parliamentary mandate being ignored, democracy is only valid if it supports the British Nationalist.
That’s several very closely-related nails – full-blood siblings – smacked comprehensively on the head. Super-apt, comprehensively pertinent, and beautifully argued. Anyone pretending to what used to be Labour values really ought to be disgusted with and ashamed of Murray and his ilk, as a Scot and as a synthetic socialist.
galamcennalath
Worth bearing in mind the Nazi luftwaffe practiced the blitzkrieg techniques in Spain in 1936, helping Franco.
I broke the law!
link to assets3.thrillist.com
Can we assume all those BritNats proclaiming the righteousness of the Spanish Constitution will be campaigning soon to hand back Gibraltar!?
With Brexit, this is their opportunity to solve that issue permanently. So they will be sorting it out?
Funny (not) how expedient BritNat stances are!
We have a memorial to the International Brigade here in Dundee that was placed by the then Labour Council in 1975. I doubt if many of the then councillors would agree with Ian Murray.
link to international-brigades.org.uk
Although I cannot by any stretch of the imagination compare myself to any of the heroes portrayed in the above post. I myself together with some of my friends have had the jail and extradition flights in handcuffs and leg iron restrainers to stand trial.
I have engaged in civil disobedience and in what should have been under Scottish civil law court cases were magically converted into criminal law. ….and all on the hearsay of a fictitious document, a statutory Instrument that was neither printed, published or made good in legislation. Even a Procurator Fiscal who dealt with many of those prosecutions, many years later declared in public that those convictions were unsound. The full weight of the establishment, the judiciary, lawyers acting for the crown, bent politicians, equally bent civil servants and their pals in beezness descended apon us. 131 decent law abiding folk, doctors, teachers and other professionals or of none, many of whom had never seen the inside of a courtroom received unjust criminal convictions.
Aye, decent folk leaned upon, threatened,intimidated confined and heavily fined. Small beer compared to what those aforementioned heroes went through but nonetheless, it gave me a taster of what a corrupt establishment and its equally corrupt state apparatus can be capable of.
Just because the powers that be say so,
it doesn’t necessarily mean it is so.
Nor does it mean it will be so, either.
@Marcia
I didn’t know of that memorial to thsoe that went to fight against Fascism was in Dundee so thanks for pointing it out.
I’m not at all surprised though that Dundonians did go and fight against Fascism as it’s in there blood to do so. I’m a weegie by birth but Dundee is the home of my heart.
Great people and most as least share the values I do just like yourself
Next time we have a vote on Independence I’m sure we can get the support for YES in the city up to 60%. Let’s keep talking. C’mon Glasgow and Edinburgh try and catch up or at least do your best to beat Dundee in getting a Yes vote
Watching the disgusting, self-interested thing the Labour Party has become is like watching a man you once respected taking to drink. He cares about nothing except getting money for his next swallow and he is utterly without shame about how he does it. Those who still support this hulk are like the drunkard’s relatives, misguidedly supporting him because they think he’s still the man he was. But Bye Bevan is dead, he isn’t coming back and his infamous judgement on the Tories now applies to Labour.
Rev Stu,
So proud of you for posting this.
You always seem to know exactly what needs to be said.
Thank you for an excellent article. Mr. Murray is a very sad, deluded individual.
Donald MacKenzie 1.21pm. Murdo Fraser.,an anagram of ‘farms ordure’
We have a faux democracy in Scotland as part of the UK.
We will only have a true democracy when Scotland is independent.
The great mystery in Scotland is why people still vote Labour.
When the Labour Party was founded some people in England applied to join Hardie was warned not to let them as they would only destroy it from within sadly he never took that advice and look what has happened now I know Murray and company are so called Scots,but they take their orders from Westminster England maybe after independence we could like Spain put these people on trial??? For treason ???
@frogesque says: 30 March, 2018 at 4:30 pm
I broke the law!
link to assets3.thrillist.com
Here’s the background music for the above link:-
link to youtube.com
Mr Peffers, you really are a nasty piece of work.
This all started after I simply asked if Nicola Sturgeon should announce the date for IndyRef2 or not.
Then you claimed out of all that, That I called Nicola Sturgeon a Dictator. You are crazy.
Now you seem to have me mixed up with being someone you have a problem with, somebody called “Rock”. Now if you have a problem with this guy then can I asked you to vent your anger in his direction.
Calling me a Unionist is like calling the Pope the head of the Orange Order.
You have the wrong guy Mr Peffers.
So please cut out the Stalking Mr Peffers or I will report you for harassment.
Thank You
Rev, you would hope it was not necessary to keep saying the same things, but apparently it is. So thanks for reminding us what we know and are all too ready to forget and reminding us that there’s a couple or three generations for whom much of your examples are ancient history.
I’m not a big fan of religion, but one thing it tells us is that the Christmas story, the Easter story and all the other bits in between have to be retold and retold every year if you want them to survive.
Thousands of people were crucified under Roman tyranny, but there’s only one victim name springs to mind and that is because his story was told and has not yet been forgotten.
WE forget our folk heroes of yesterday at the peril of having to do again what they did to fight oppression.
Here’s a quote from Tony Benn, which is likely to be familiar to anyone who ever heard him speak.
(“We”, of course, refers to Theresa’s precious, precious Britnat UK):
“And I’ve been interested in all the people we locked up. I met Gandhi once, we locked him up; I met Nehru, he was locked up, Mandela was locked up. I think Nicoma was locked up, certainly Kenneth Kaunda from Zambia was locked up, we locked up Nkrumah, and all the people we locked up ended their lives having tea with the Queen as head of Commonwealth countries. And so historical perspective helps a little bit.”
“First they came for the Catalans, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Catalan” …
A short reminder for those with highly selective memories.
…. and a Mr Assad of Syria had tea with the Queen. In fairness his wife is English and supports her war crimes hubby I believe to the hilt.
I’ve never had tea with Q or even D of E or PC………
Moral of this sordid little story?
Don’t take the piss. Murray and Fraser in particular squealing ‘rule of law’ like a mantra is taking the piss. Because law is in their shitty little heads always right, always fair, and always decent.
It’s so naive and right wing it’s unreal. But then Fraser’s a Tory and therefore full of shit, and Murray’s a Blairite, and also full of the brown, smelly stuff.
But why keep your mouth shut when you can flap your gums and confirm that you are an idiot?? EVEN CORBYN has been silenced by his own party (PLP) [on the subject of Indy for Scotland and matters relating to Catalonia] as, once again, the tail wags the dog for Labour. How many of their MPs represent the views of Labour members?? They are ‘Tory-Lite’ despite the fact that, when asked, most voters (regardless of affiliation) would support the more ‘left-wing’ policies he would support. It’s onlywhen the policies are ‘labelled’ left-wing by media types that they fail. Politics is NOT in the hands of the people, it is in the hands of a VERY few. We must take it back again.
Thepner
More details of the Dundee Memorial and the list of Dundee men killed fighting for the International Brigade can be found here;
link to oneworldcentre.org.uk
Hamish100 at 5.52
Which war crimes are those? The ones invented by the US and reported in our media?
@Gary
“How many of their MPs represent the views of Labour members??”
How many Labour members left in scotland would happily send Clara Ponsati back to Spain to face a 25 or 30 year jail sentance on a trumped up charge by a fascist state?
Not many I would guess other than the most totally deluded and rapid anti Independence supporter. Once these last remaining supporters see the reality of what Labour in Scotland have become, Scotland will win it’s Independence.
The law is normatively biased, it favours the culture that it originates from. Or to put it another way, the law internalises the implicit biases associated with cultural norms and practices, often with the result of perpetuating inequality and injustice.
Legal Theory Lexicon: Welfare, Well-Being, and Happiness
link to lsolum.typepad.com
The myth of objectivity: implicit racial bias and the law (Part 2)
link to scielo.org.za
ADDRESSING CULTURAL BIAS IN THE LEGAL PROFESSION
link to repository.law.umich.edu
Please stop calling Labour Tory Lite. They have gone away beyond that. Underneath the red flag and union affiliations they are just exactly the same
The media are full of the anti semitism in the Labour Party mean while it is reported that today at least 13palestinians have been shot dead by the Israeli army yes it is being reported but no t condemned by our champions of freedom Britain and America it seems it is more important not to offend the Jews than it is to kill Palestinians
@Marcia
Thank you for the link to the plaque commenerating those that lost their live’s from the Dundee area in the fight against fascism. I’m repeating those words here as a reminder to the likes of Ian Murray and McTernan.
That lot really need to grow up and admit their stupidity.
The plaque reads:
To the memory of the Dundee members
of the International Brigade
killed in Spain fighting fascism
1936 – 1938
– NO PASARAN –
John Tadden
John McLanders
Malcolm Smith
Ken Stalker
Dave Samson
John Ness
John Mudie
William McGuire
James Cockburn
John McEwan
James Murray
Frank McCabe
John Alexander
John McHugh
Matt Cox
Man’s dearest possession is life; and since it is granted to live but once he must so live as to feel no torturing regrets for years without purpose :
so live as not to be seared by the shame of a cowardly and
trivial past : so live that dying he can say :
“All my life and all my strength were given to the finest cause in the world – the fight for the liberation of Mankind”
Politics is NOT in the hands of the people, it is in the hands of a VERY few. We must take it back again.
On balance though, Lab and Cons are both fighting over the English middle er England vote, which is usually pretty right of centre at the best of times. Bomber Blair and Crash Gordo showed the way forward to Labour centre right greatness in England. Lab goes right, they pick up “nice” English tory votes and even quite a lot of UKIPers too. Or just what Momentum are threatening.
At least that’s probably what bubbles up between the ears of future Lord Ian Murray of Morningside, big picture wise. And look at the rewards, mmmmmm, Lords tasty goodness, very very tasty.
.
o/t
re Cambridge Analytica and election cheating, Carole Cadwaladr and Christopher Wylies twitter feeds are worth a look.
link to twitter.com
link to twitter.com
contrast and compare with BBC UK Politics page currently.
link to bbc.co.uk
Corbyn anti-semitism, May says Brexit allows more ££ for NHS, and some tumbleweed.
More Remainers are now seeing the BBC for what it is, they are going through the same process we did in 2014. This bodes well for the next indyref.
Would Establishment lawyer Nicola ever defy British Law?
I thought that there was a 1% chance but now that she has stood “shoulder to shoulder” with Saint Theresa in condemning Russia for an act it had nothing to do with, there is a 0% chance.
Rock (8th October 2017 – “The shoogly peg”):
“I can say with 100% confidence that Saint Theresa is not going to give permission to Nicola to hold another referendum before Brexit has been completed.
I can say with 99% confidence that Nicola will not dare defy Saint Theresa.
If she does, the recent events in Catalonia will look like a picnic in comparison.
The fascist British state is far far worse than the fascist Spanish state.
The worst part of it, more than half of Scots will be on the side of the fascist British state.
After all the Irish and Scots will remain “British” until judgement day and beyond.”
Before the usual suspects rush in to say there is no such thing as “British Law”, why did the “independent” Scottish justice system allow the establishment of the UK Supreme Court?
Because it is as pretendy “independent” as the pretendy “sovereignty” of the Scots.
Who in Scotland is brave enough to go on trial for sedition in the United Kingdom?
Nicola is no Ghandi or Mandela.
@Rock,
Come on please. You must have something to contribute other than keeping on regurgitating the same bile post after post. We know it off by heart.
In future just post “ditto” and we will fill in the blanks.
After all the Irish and Scots will remain “British” until judgement day and beyond.”
You forgot the National is a con and Rabhie Peffers ate your hamster Rock.
TIGF Rock, away out for a drink, with the rest of the 77th lads.
Rock
I don’t mean to be rude but where’s your insight coming from? What is your opinion of the law and human behaviour based on? How can you predict the future?
link to journals.openedition.org
When it comes to fighting injustice it seems that the Scots are not slow in being forward. That first picture in this article tells us that 2100 volunteers went from the UK to support the International Brigade.
We also know that 65 were from Glasgow and as Marcia’s link shows 14 were from Dundee. The two cities between then make up about 20% of the population of Scotland.
Makes me wonder then that of the 534 from the UK who died how many were Scot’s? Since 15% of that number were from just Dundee and Glasgow alone.
Anyway, it doesn’t matter really does it. It just seems important to me that for a long time Scot’s were always more willing to fight against injustice where they saw it.
I think the same still holds true today.
That first picture in this article tells us that 2100 volunteers went from the UK to support the International Brigade and that 534 were killed.
Sorry an important ommission from that last post.
Robert Peffers,
“Did you, perhaps mean psychiatric counselling?”
An elderly father who makes posts like the ones quoted below hours after the sad death of his son does need psychiatric counselling, in my humble opinion.
Robert Peffers says:
25 February, 2018 at 8:20 pm (The tunes of glory)
““Hope you’re doing ok Robert”
Well not really, it’s going to take a very long time to get over this particular sad setback.”
Robert Peffers says:
25 February, 2018 at 9:23 pm (The tunes of glory)
“Now please Wingers, nobody tell Rock about this wee web link when he clocks on tonight.
It might upset him and we cannot have that now – can we?
Well can we?”
A very long time? It didn’t even take him two hours to make snide remarks against posters which have a different view than his.
Thanks for that Stuart, most of my heroes there, should include the 1820 weavers and Thomas Muir.I’m sure that there were many others who suffered grievously if not by the ultimate atrocity.
In the UK, in the 1800’s
The landowners declared you need to Own Land to be able to Vote
These voters declared the Common Man didn’t have the intelect to be given the vote
These voters declared females were mentally unsuited to vote
The Law is Written by Those in Power
The Victors dispense Justice
The solution is in Independence
Ashamed that I have THAT individual representing my constituency.
Black Joan,
“and all the people we locked up ended their lives having tea with the Queen as head of Commonwealth countries.”
I can assure you they will never have to lock up our Nicola because she would never never break the law.
The SNP would never never act against the law. That means Westminster law.
Scotland has at least another 622 years to wait before a locked up “terrorist” ends up shaking hands with the purring Queen’s descendant.
For the record, I am totally opposed to any violent struggle.
But I have long called for a Ghandi like non violent struggle, which will never happen in Scotland.
I seem to remember that the unionist Labour Party, when in government, freed Augusto Pinochet, allowing him to fly home to Chile, when Spain wanted the murdering terrorist extradited for human rights violations.
CameronB Brodie,
“Rock
I don’t mean to be rude but where’s your insight coming from? What is your opinion of the law and human behaviour based on? How can you predict the future?”
After 311 years of Scotland and the pretendy “sovereign” Scots being a colony of England, it is not rocket science to predict that the fascist British state will never let Scotland become independent.
What do you think this sudden anti Russian crusade is all about?
Nicola and the SNP made utter fools of themselves by supporting Saint Theresa, in my humble opinion.
Just looked again at the state of that John McTernan tweet in the article. Maybe he had had a glass of wine or a few bottles.
1. Spain is a democracy
2. It has a democracy
3. It has a supreme Court
4. It has the rule of law
5. Those laws apply to politicians, no exceptions
6. Franco was a dictator
6 Modern Spain is not Falangist Spain please refer to 1.
Yes, I know there are two number 6’s there but that’s as it was typed.
Thing is what is his point? Franco was a dictator and we can all agree on that. I cannot though agree that the Spanish government right now in it’s treatment of Catalonia and their elected representatives is acting in anyway like a democracy.
All it’s judges are political appointees that too is undemocratic. Of course the law applies to all including politicians. In this case though absolutely no law has been broken other than by the Spanish state bruttaly beating their own citizens.
The law may be an ass but McTernan definately is.
O/T
Oh oh, I see that Russia is showing off their ‘Satan’ missile today.
I think we all know what they are trying to say, and it sounds like they are a wee bitty angry.
The UKOK has form when it comes to creating a massive stooshie eh. Just brilliant, well done May and co.
Never forget, each and every politician is a public servant.
They have no sinecure and their power is invested in them by you. The laws of the land are your laws not their laws.
Politicians in this country, hold offices whose modern incarnation and edifices are barely more than 100 years old -only a couple of hundred since the very concept of an elected politician and then not by public will.
Prior to that your law was the law of the aristocracy and the clergy. Their remnants and the rotten carcass of their undemocratic rule of law still festers in our public institutions. This country remains undemocratic where they exist.
It was the turn of the last century before anyone knew of publically elected politicians. We are engaged in fighting for the independence of a nation after 300 years, 200 of them under unelected rulers. Your grandparents barely knew a fledgling democracy based on elected politicians.
Not only is this nonsense the preserve of the UK, this is the case globally. Today you have actually heard of a charge of ‘Rebellion’. You read it on a smartphone or laptop. A law from a pre-democratic century. A law of the aristocracy and the clergy.
There is no immutable centuries old democracy or ancient rule of law to be revered – mold it as you see fit for the world of today.
‘The law may be an ass but McTernan definately is.’
More than an ass. It is hard to imagine the depths of stupidity plunged to send a tweet to a leading advocate defaming his client!
link to twitter.com
Rock,
I would stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who wholeheartedly supportand campaign for Scottish Independence.
Do you really think that your contribution adds to the furtherance of that goal?
I don’t often agree with everything stated on this site,but I sure as hell will defend everyone the right to write!!
Why don’t you do what the rest of us lurkers do and shut the F@ck up if you don’t agree?
Incidentally,you do come across creepily sometimes….like a mad Unionist!!!
Surely not??????
Superb article Rev Stu.And in addition some worthy comments:
Breastplate – the spirit of the law.
Bobajack – Labour fled Scotland for London, and money.
Dr Jim – this badness is political power gone nuts.
We are nearing the end game, be complacent and submit, or resist.Complacent about what?Resist against what? Go figure.
@cearc
I hadn’t seen that so thanks, kind of proves my point. An ass.
scotspatriot says:
30 March, 2018 at 8:58 pm
“I sure as hell will defend everyone the right to write!!”
“Why don’t you do what the rest of us lurkers do and shut the F@ck up if you don’t agree?”
Why don’t you follow your own advice?
@scotspine
The best way to shut them up is to ignore them, they beat themselves up about that when they get no attention.
Best not to throw crumbs their way.
So let me get this right. Murray and Fraser (FFS) are siding with a quasi- fascist state and hope to gain votes – outside of Aberdeenshire, Stirling, Ayr and Galloway. This whole situation is fucked up beyond all recognition.
“Why don’t you follow your own advice?”
Have I not made my position on all this fucking bullshit clear by now?
LAST WARNING.
Any more of it and EVERYONE involved is going straight on the pre-moderation list, no debate.
rock stop posting your own posts from yesterday. Move on. Your 2 hour shift is nearly over. Think of something better for tomorrow because you are a 100% bore or come back refreshed in 300 odd years.
Maybe ‘Rock’ should be renamed ‘Cock from Cambridge Anals “
@Rev (8.41) –
Can’t speak for anyone else, but I’ll happily endure the shame of ‘pre-mod’ status if it means Rock’s 8.08 comment is, albeit inadvertently, highlighted – well beyond the pale, and isn’t the first time.
You could say the Catalonian seperatists are the fascists. The Catelonians voted in a legal election to remain with Spain.
The Dolores Monument was deliberately built facing the Glasgow Trades Council offices on the opposite bank of the Clyde in Carlton Place. It was better known as the Wee Kremlin while Glasgow City Chambers was known as the Wee Vatican. FUN DAYS.
Mad Unionist
I’m sure we will all get on if you leave the sectarianism at the front door. Ta.
A little OT but on the same theme.
Here’s some very interesting questions that the Russian Embassy just put up on the nerve agent front.
link to rusemb.org.uk
Not being covered by the MSM but should be answered by Mayhem before she gets to push this Russia thing to much more.
It’s beginning to stink like Thatcher’s Falklands.
Well said Stu.
I hope ALL posters heed the Rev’s words.
No one has immunity from being put in the Sin Bin.
Including those who should know better.
Now let’s get on with our fight for Independence lads and lassies.
@Mad Unionist,
Glasgow City chambers was indeed known as the Wee Vatican ,because inside they reckon there is the same amount of marble in walls and staircases etc. It was widely used as a film set to represent the Vatican in many movies, hence the name.
Who do you think are behaving like fascists exactly. I would like any evidence you have of Catalans attacking police truncheons with their heads. Damning stuff..
I`m sure Stuart will be able to empathise better than most with what Carla is going through,
having both been thrust into the `Justice` system through no fault of their own,
both in the pursuit of Independence for their country/nation against a corrupt establishment.
even though Carla wasn`t thrown into a dark cold cell,the whole experience of police stations and law courts must have been terrifying,she probably hasn`t slept since this started,
have no idea how this will end,as long as Scotland can say it did everything possible,
and you never know we might achieve the impossible.
@Northern Rock
Totally agree, this was a great article well worth of comment and many great comments followed until you know what.
Hopefully those the warning is aimed at will take it onboard.
Mad Unionist says:
“You could say the Catalonian seperatists are the fascists. The Catelonians voted in a legal election to remain with Spain.”
Mad Man you are confused! When exactly did this vote you speak of take place? Not the most recent one for sure.
And a by the way, can you both be a sepratist and a fascist?
I fear for anybody walking about the streets of Moscow during the World Cup rapped in an england flag.
Not looking good.
I actually think some england fans will be coming home in a body bags. It is getting that serious out there.
All due to this never ending attack on Russia by the english media.
Rev @ 9:41pm.
Well done Stew, get them telt,
I remember the old saying “beware of the Reds under the beds”, today,if you look under “the bed” you’ll find a whole host of different people, and nationalities there.
and this site may not be immune from them.
One word: CLASS. Think i might be able to find a couple of tenners down the back of the sofa …..
As some Catalans are imprisoned in Spain for their political actions, others take refuge elsewhere in Europe. The Spanish Govrnment attempt to use European Arrest Warrants to solve their political problems in Catalonia might well rebound, as it surely deserves to. These warrants were devised to catch real criminals not people that a Government finds inconvenient because of political difference.
Madrid has effectively, but unintentionally, set up a competition between the legal systems of Scotland, Switzerland and Germany. Who, if any, will agree to return the poltical refugees to Spain? Who, if any, will be the first to do so? Who will be the last? Who will refuse? Let us hope that the Scottish Legal system is up to this challenge.
Scot F,
Well to be fair Stuart wasn’t looking at a 30 yr, sentence!
@Rock says: 30 March, 2018 at 8:08 pm:
Yep! Rock! You changed you your nickname and I spotted your style in the first post of yours I read under that name. I’ll not need to read any more under that name again and can go back to not reading you under, “Rock”, now too.
And Another thing – you haven’t a clue how grief is coped with. Did you fondly imagine you sit and dwell on your grief? You do as much as you can to take your mind off it.
It doesn’t, take your mind off it but it does help to ease the pain. Do you imagine that you ever stop grieving for the loved ones – you never do.
Don’t bother changing your, hide behind, name again for we will still know it’s you.
In spite of your style and debating errors being explained to you, in the hope you would learn from your errors and correct them, you still continue with your bully boy style attacking the person and not their arguments and have the temerity to accuse others of bullying.
@Tom Platt
My view is the same as yours, they choose to roll the dice and take a gamble which might well backfire.
I hope at least that it will in Scotland. I want no part of any country that would deport someone for trumped up charges to a country that will not guarentee a fair trial.
I hope too that Germay feels the same and it seems so far that they do juding by the reports. Scotland is surely better than a banana republic?
@ Bob Mack. It had nothing to do with marble. Clearly you are lacking knowledge about Glasgow and Catelonia/Spain
Robert Peffers 11:14 pm
Well said you. Grief is not easy and for some of us we cope as well – if there such a well way, to get past the day and the next day and beyond.
As for Rock.. An embarrassment, he knows it, we know it and it hurts him.
@Robert Peffers –
‘Rock’ is not real. I think we’ve all known that for a long time now.
He occasionally makes his comments ‘chime’ with current affairs, if they can be fruitfully connected to his pet concerns, and that’s fair enough. That’s what he gets paid for.
But he has overstepped the mark. Even his handlers must be able to see that. He’s become frustrated after so many years of the same gig…’What else can I say?!’
Well, he said it at 8.08.
Rock wants out.
Please, Rev, set that fucker free…
Thepnr @ 10.40
Yes.
The death of Yugoslavia?
The axis powers were expansionist, but many facists are isolationists, rejecting ‘others’.
@CameronB Brodie. Perhaps a sectarian border is not required between Scotland and England. The English do not want it and most Scots.
While Stu produces yet more brilliant material, other news is also of interest.
link to channel4.com
It may not be headline news but the Skripal case and the Cambridge Analytica story are fighting one another to occupy the media top spot in the headlines.
The BBC are all Skripal while Channel4 are highlighting Cambridge Analytica.
Skripal has no substantive evidence while Cambridge Analytica has tons of it. Isn’t it odd that the BBC don’t want to touch the story about election interfering.
I’ve always known my great uncle went as part of the brigade, he’s one of the 65 from Glasgow who went, who died there, the tale goes that he was killed very soon after arriving. He apparently understated his age, only 16 or 17 to go fight. I had a wee look to see if I could find him on any of the lists out there, I know his name is on the plaque at People’s palace, but could only find one Trust that lists all those who died, the International Brigade Memorial Trust:
link to international-brigades.org.uk
They lived in a time when ordinary people who where opposed to fascism went over to fight alongside those under its oppression, and we live in a time when jumped up little nyaff’s like Ian Murray and John McTernan spout utter shite about the ‘the rule of law’…aw because ‘snpeeebad”. Wankers.
(Haw, that’s some stock we aw come frae eh?)
This is where my great uncle died:
link to en.wikipedia.org
You could say that administrative law is the fabric supporting institutional biases.
link to onlinelibrary.wiley.com
K1 12.01
Thanks for sharing that really interesting insight into your family history.
The issue all Independence websites and newspaper comment sections such as the Herald or Scotsman have is in my opinion little to do with any disagrement over whether Scotland should be Independent ot not.
It has nothing to do with putting forward an alternative arguement but much more about how to disrupt and prevent any arguement or discussion at all.
There is not a lot that that can be done to rid ourselves of them as they could just as easily come back under a different name if they were to be banned, So in some ways it is a “better the devil you know” type of thing.
All I would say is that if you personally believe that someone who posts here’s whole purpose is to disrupt the thread and the discussion then totally ignore them.
Deprive them of any oxygen and they will suffocate. Most people know this so I might be talking to the converted but not everyone does. Let them have their spiel especially when in 90% of the time it is off topic and usually an attack on some other poster. That’s a big giveaway on it’s own.
Today’s article by the Rev was excelelnt and so too were many of the below the line comments until it was derailed. His/her motivation is unclear but it is certainly against Independence and here on a pro Independence website.
That’s beyond the pale, ignore totally and I mean totally.
I long for the days of rationing, not on food you understand, cause like many I could loose a few lbs and not miss it,
and not censorship, or blocking,
just, an agreeable acknowledgement that maybe, just maybe, if your posting (and yir names no Nana) reems an reems oh stuff Every Day!!!! on this site, and very little of it is actually informative and most of it is having a dig at other posters, perhaps it would up everybody’s game if you agreed to disagree, made your point (positively) and accepted to only post 2 or 3 (not too long) posts per day.
Wouldn’t that be wonderful. Although the cynic in me suspects we will be subjected to numerous newbees, if it comes to pass.
Fuck it its Easter, perhaps we’ll get a miracle, or at the very least a chocolate egg.
Keep grinding on folks, remember we invented thraun, they’re on or turf noo. Mr Peffers – best of wishes tae ye. Kindest thoughts.
Aye we can, now we must. Yes now. x
Mad Unionist
Are you trying to suggest Scotland’s self-determination is about hating the English? That is particularly weak and suggests you’ve not put much thought into this.
@K1
Couldn’t have been easy to share that. Thanks it makes it all the more real.
Don’t tell Rock but tomorrow’s National front page is a big one. Colonel Ruth and her band of scary tory bigots.
If youre a listener to the R4 beeb gimp zone, Colonel Ruth and her bigot party may as well live in another universe let alone Scotland. Its all about evil Jezza the anti semite, so vote Strong and Stable.
Ah the great beeb gimp zone, what would the tory freak show do without you.
link to twitter.com
Magnificent filleting of the official British Nationalist ‘rule of law’ narrative on democratic principles Stu.
I wrongly used the NATO strikes on Jugoslavia in support of Balkan democracy
when preached to about the rule of law by a well schooled Britnat apologist recently.
Cheers.
@Mad Unionist says: 30 March, 2018 at 10:16 pm:
“You could say the Catalonian seperatists are the fascists. The Catelonians voted in a legal election to remain with Spain.”
That’s about as illogical as the Present Prime Minister’s views on anything, Mad Unionist.
After all David Lloyd George was the Prime Minister of the UK from 1916 to 1922 because the UK voted for the Liberals in an election>/b>.
So, by your logic, the Liberals should still be in power now because the people voted for them in 1916.Thay whole point of elections is to allow the electorate to change their preferences.
Re the Spanish Civil war,
I did some research (I think in 2014, sorry can’t confirm source). Scotland may have provided the largest (or one of the largest numbers) of volunteers.
But it didn’t end there, The Official Communist Party and (no surprise) Labour Party of the day Officially ordered no support in any way, in fact they ordered no supprot… In spite of lobbying.
The people in the schemes of Glasgow, Dundee, Aberdeen, and the countryside. They went in the face of them. But it never stopped there, cause the women, fae the Highland and the Islands, their only chance of an independent life/career was Nursing, they volunteered too. And the women from Scotland, in the poorest of poor areas, they fund raised, for food, for transport, for medical equipment. They were entirely aware and conscious of not being a burden on the people they were trying to help, by sending an army that then had to take their food.
Of course, international politics came into play once they were there, and the Soviet Generals had their own agenda…. but this little country of ours, with the biggest of hearts, had sons and daughters, fae the shadow of WW1, wha widnae put up wi that again, even in anither country.
Internationalists, humanists, nationalists, men and women. An absolute credit.
One bit of decency at a time folks, naethin else fur it.
Robert Peffers
You are fecking paranoid, why anyone reads anything you write here is beyond me, you have made personal insults to people for as long as i have been on wings, if someone has a different slant on things, according to you they cannot be a nationalist, i have met so my people like you in this long life of mine, there is no wavering with some people, but some people are just dogmatically to stubborn to allow others having an honest opinion.
And as for using foreign phrases, they don’t make you intelligent, if you want to write anything use the language of the everyday person, you don’t find anyone in the street using it, so why bother, ofc, you will come back at me for telling you some home truths, and old dogmatic dog can never be changed, and your the proof of the pudding.
I will not respond to you, my opinion only counts with people that listens to common sense, and all you have in your miserable life is to condemn some people on wings, with no proof whatsoever about what you say about them, you and Mother Theresa May have a lot in common
@Daisy Walker
Re the Spanish Civil war:
That’s a beautiful comment Daisy – a genuine tribute to a generation that has by now passed
Sad that the Scottish Nationalists did not join the other parties in demonstrating against anti semitism outside Parliament. They support Catalonia but not the hard working British Jewish community. I fear the Scottish Nationalists may be a far right wing reactionary entity.
Bill not Ben – aka Rock.
‘Tis you?
Mad Unionist 1.51 am.
Generally, realistic people are open minded. If a situation is not fully understood, then opinions are usually kept to themselves.
Are you trying to imply that Spanish Guards & Israeli military were entitled to use excessive means of control. 15 Palistainians dead.
Incidentally, orthodox Jews frown very deeply on any Jew who married his/her faith. It would appear to me that this somewhat hints of racism, don’t you think?
Sorry, add “outwith his/her faith”.
Huh! This would be an example from the state broadcaster that lectures folk on propaganda….
link to twitter.com
Macart , I caught a small portion of the smug , self promoting “Ain’t we Just the Best 50 years of Reporting Scotland ” where Ms Magnusson said she had received abuse on Twitter – she then shoe horned in the mantra ‘ but we get it from both sides so we must be balanced and doing it right’
The statement took me back to the SNP win and the first interview with Alex Salmond where she asked him , What would you say to those who are afraid tonight?
That question remains unforgiven in my book but is merely the start of my utter contempt for the lying ,manipulating media.
@Dorothy Devine
=================
That old canard. Logic isn’t part of their training, since getting abuse from more than one side automatically doesn’t mean you’re getting it right. It could mean you’re getting it so wrong you annoy folk from different sides.
It also could mean that one side continually complains regardless of how much you favour them – they want more favouring. This is seen in UK BBC (or rally SE England BBC) where the news is now run by Tory fanatics like Nick Robinson yet some Tories still complain about left-wing bias on the BBC.
Or it could be because the presenter is an annoying twit who annoys folk for reasons nothing to do with the news.
It could be any of the above or all of them. If you’re going to give a smug comment about your so called lack of bias you ought to back it up with evidence a lot better than a few random punters on twitter.
If everybody contributing here could only do so after they had identified who they were we’d be rid of quite a few.
@Bill not Ben says:31 March, 2018 at 1:02 am
“You are fecking paranoid, why anyone reads anything you write here is beyond me,
Ignored this comment as Argumentum Ad Hominem.
@Mad Unionist says: 31 March, 2018 at 1:51 am:
“Sad that the Scottish Nationalists”
The term SNP are the initial letters for The “Scottish NATIONAL Party”.
The term SNP does NOT stand for, the Scottish NATIONALISTS Party.
” did not join the other parties in demonstrating against anti semitism outside Parliament.
The term, “antiSemitism”, is one word.
“and They support Catalonia but not the hard working British Jewish community. I fear the Scottish Nationalists may be a far right wing reactionary entity.”
There isn’t a “British”, Jewish Community in Scotland. There has been a, ‘Scottish’ Jewish Community in Scotland since before the English Kingdom’s pogrom and English Kingdom’s expulsion of the Jews from 1290 until 1656.
This expulsion of the Jews was, (and still is), accompanied by an exaggerated demonization of Judaism by the English, (I had intended to quote below current sites making such exaggerated fictitious claims of a 12 year old boy being crucified by Jews.
However, strangely enough, since the Labour Party current split over anti-Semitism, search engines report these sites as no longer able to be reached).
There is no evidence of such an event ever happening but see this about, “William of Norwich”, on Wiki).
link to en.wikipedia.org
Many of the Jews ejected from England formed Jewish communities in Scotland but there are no records of these ever being ghettoised in Scotland. As usual immigrants are just absorbed and become Scots of whatever extraction. I went to school in Leith and had Jewish pupils as classmates, (along with just about every other nation).
Leith was then Scotland’s biggest docks and very much cosmopolitan.
“Tories, naturally, took a different position. Murdo Fraser, who we met above, was part of a group of Tory students who called for Mandela’s execution.”
Thanks for pointing this out, news to me, but not suprised, he is a loathsome individual. I’d like to see him defend his position.
@Robert Peffers. All UK Citizens living in and out ofthe UK are British and that is likely to include yourself.
Argumentum Ad Hominem – an attack or observation on the principles and rubbish a person speaks, yes it describes him to a tee
Amore patriae- Love of one’s native land
amor vincit omnia- Love conquers all things
Would anyone like to join in with this nonesense, i agree, why bother lol
Mad Unionist
I would’nt bother mate, you will probably get a long winded reply or a foreign phrase that only a silly duffer like del boy ever uses, and we all laugh at him, but at least del boy is in a comedy show and not on wings
P.S. I am not a unionist btw,
Mad Unionist verbum satis sapienti, that’s latin , means a word to the wise, why bother with a windbag
Well Rock I think you like anyone else on this site have a right to express your opinions and I must admit I agree with some of the things you say but I insist on your right to say them I mean if we stop people posting on here because we do not like what they say what does that say about us???
I once came across a certain Murdo Fraser at the dangerous part of Kinoull Hill in Perth while out for a walk with my dog and a friend. It remains a matter of some regret that I did not actually ‘bump’ into him that day thus contributing to the saving of humanity from itself. Then again, if the world was completely free of a-holes like Murdo we wouldn’t know what to watch out for were they ever to return. so it seems Murdo Fraser and his bestie Ian Murray do have a purpose after all. I’ll away and get my coat!
Great article but not one I expect to hear on cake Kaye on Monday morning ha ha
The bbc could not catch a cold never mind a real story
‘why bother with a windbag’
You continue to attempt to denigrate Mr Peffers input on here and ‘we’ all see ‘you’ in this act, which is bereft of any ‘reasoning’. What you hope to achieve by these slurs and smears and now throwing your hand in with that other yin and ‘ganging up’ isn’t going to pass on this forum.
Leave him alone BnB. Stop the baseless personal ‘attacks’. For that is what they are.
If you don’t like someone’s comments, don’t read them. You are deliberately and now frequently referring to Mr Peffer’s comments as a means of ‘personally attacking ‘him’. That is your sole aim, you bring nothing to the discussions on the topics that Mr Peffer’s may be discussing on here.
Kindly refrain on the grounds of ‘if you have nothing to bring to the debate, shut it’. Instead of attempting to undermine Mr Peffers comments. It is not for you to decide who should or should not read other posters’ comments on here. Scroll past and give it a rest.
One of the best articles yet, Stu. Exposes the utter hypocrisy that is the NorthBritLab of the present day. (And some others too, for that matter, who if they were back in the late 1930’s would be doing no more than wanly pleading for peace in Spain from the sidelines.)
It’s not just the supposed right of Labour either, as some folks seem to assume. The other flank are only different in their total silence. What about Finlay or JayCee his Saviour?
There was a time, as Stu reminds us, that these posers would have been on the front lines of the nearest demo calling out fascistoid regimes like Rajoy’s. But now their BritNattery triumphs all.
As to the injection of “white noise” btl, it’s not all down to one obvious prat. If I were black ops, I would be deploying a chorus of supposed supporters stirring up a load of fake-radical bollocks, all of which has nothing to do with indy and an awful lot to do with repelling inquisitive open-minded visitors.
John McTernan, like some demented bell weather, is a sure indicator as to which side in an argument one should avoid.
bellwether even…stupid auto correct.
Robert Peffers,
“And Another thing – you haven’t a clue how grief is coped with. Did you fondly imagine you sit and dwell on your grief? You do as much as you can to take your mind off it.”
Unless you are a psychopath and a bully, you don’t increase your insults on other posters to cope with grief, certainly not on someone else’s blog.
You calm down and take a more kindly view on others.
Robert Peffers says:
25 February, 2018 at 9:23 pm (The tunes of glory)
“Now please Wingers, nobody tell Rock about this wee web link when he clocks on tonight.
It might upset him and we cannot have that now – can we?
Robert Peffers says:
12 March, 2018 at 2:10 pm (A historic breakthrough):
“Absolute and utter pish! Squirrel.”
Robert Peffers says:
12 March, 2018 at 11:44 pm (A historic breakthrough):
“Oh! Go and do some research before mouthing off, Valerie.”
Robert Peffers says:
13 March, 2018 at 3:05 pm (A historic breakthrough):
“Sheesh! Where do these uninformed numpties come from?”
I can quote hundreds more of your verbally aggressive posts.
Blair Paterson,
“Well Rock I think you like anyone else on this site have a right to express your opinions and I must admit I agree with some of the things you say but I insist on your right to say them I mean if we stop people posting on here because we do not like what they say what does that say about us???”
Read the conversation again.
I have hardly ever asked anyone to stop posting.
It was “scotspatriot” telling me to “shut the F@ck up if you don’t agree?”.
Robert Peffers says:
30 March, 2018 at 11:14 pm,
“Yep! Rock! You changed you your nickname and I spotted your style in the first post of yours I read under that name.”
To use your own favourite word, you are a “numpty” if you think “Northern Rock” is the same poster as me.
It certainly is not my style to address you as “Mr Peffers”.
Bill not Ben says:
31 March, 2018 at 1:02 am
Well said.
I’m sad to say that my father passed away last week. As part of the journey of life, bereavement is what you make of it, IMHO.
link to pdfs.semanticscholar.org
link to psychology.org.au
link to griefjourney.com
CameronB Brodie says:
31 March, 2018 at 6:44 pm
“I’m sad to say that my father passed away last week. As part of the journey of life, bereavement is what you make of it, IMHO.”
My condolences.
Normal persons take bereavement as a time to reflect and to be kind to all.
Rock
Thank you though please don’t look to use me as a vehicle in your argument.
CameronB Brodie says:
31 March, 2018 at 7:56 pm
“Rock
— don’t look to use me as a vehicle in your argument.”
I have no desire or need to.
As you had posted immediately after me, on the matter I had referred to, I responded as a matter of courtesy.
Then made immediate reference to “normal” people and how they handle grief. As I said, thank you. Leave it at that please.
CameronB Brodie says:
31 March, 2018 at 8:15 pm
“Then made immediate reference to “normal” people”
Because I believe you are “normal”.
If you didn’t want a response, you should not have posted on the same matter immediately after my post addressed to a psychopath and bully.
Anyway, I don’t consider you to be one of the “usual suspects”, so you can leave it at that if you like.
Who’d of thought that in 2018 we’d find a member state of the EU making political prisoners of citizens who were democratically elected to hold office.
That together with Trump, Brexit and a host of other hot topics convinces me that the world has gone mad.
Anyone know when the next shuttle leaves the planet for Alpha Centauri? Book me a seat someone…
Dave McEwan Hill says:
30 March, 2018 at 3:36 pm
And we’ve forgotten James Purlie Wilson..
I knew nothing about James Wilson and these brave souls; written out of history indeed.
Heartbreaking. So much to uncover.
Thank you.
So much for the Rev sorting these muppets out !!
Every fucking day the blog becomes unreadable because of concerted attacks on posters by known trolls.
So much for pre moderation !
Can it start yet please ?
K1
Some people have to be made to have a good look at themselves, my aim is not to offend if it can be avoided, but there are people on wings that are being paranoid for no good reason.
And to add another few folk that dud illegal things in the cause of justice or freedom….. American ‘rebels’ against the British. Sure 1776 was illegal at the time. Campaigns against the legalisation of homosexuality…. Illegal… Etc etc
L
I’m sure that most real Scots are ware that the
English Redcoats suppressing Scotland were
Legally entitled to execute any Scots that spoke
In their native tongue, wore a Clan Tartan, or played
The Bagpipes!
I’m sure that all of those Scots who died went off
Into the next life content that they broke the law and
Deserved what they got???,
McTernan and Murray really are disgraceful deviants
Dedicated to destroying democracy.
That’s a great piece.
what a beautiful statue
near Jamiaca St glasgow