The nasty parties
Theresa May, the UK Home Secretary, yesterday told the Scottish Conservative conference that a Yes vote in the Scottish referendum would see the UK government putting up passport and immigration controls at the border.
Really? Rather than accept a common travel area, as exists with Ireland, the UK government would instigate full international border arrangements – arrangements which exist nowhere else in Europe – on the UK mainland?
Let’s just consider what that would require.
First, it would mean new border posts on all roads and rail routes. The new Scottish Government, which would want open borders with England, would not interrupt people’s travel into Scotland – it’d say the notion was ridiculous and based upon mindless pique (or would claim it was being “bullied” again).
People would travel to Scotland unmolested – the Scottish Government might even pay friendly-looking folk to cheerily wave travellers through at the border. Then, on the return journey, English cops and border staff would stop everyone’s car, every tourist bus. They’d board trains and ask for people’s papers, like in war-movie olden Europe. Queues would add hours hours to the Scotland-England journey.
Second, the Army and Navy, or a new border patrol force, would have to patrol the length of the land border and out to sea. There would need to be a wire – or equivalent surveillance measures – too, because the “illegal immigrants” the UK would be worried about would hardly be crossing at the main crossing points, would they?
And why would England choose to make itself look like a banana republic, pointlessly spend billions of pounds and make itself a laughing stock across the world? Not for reasons of security, because all the security arrangements at present on the UK mainland would still be in place with a common UK travel area. Simply, apparently, to make some kind of weird psychological attack on their immediate neighbours.
And would English taxpayers and travellers stand for that? Would the businesses behind the Tory party accept the logistical nightmare their government wished to inflict upon them? Would the security bods, who know what happens when bordering states don’t co-operate, accept such a dangerous situation? No, of course they wouldn’t.
Theresa May, and anyone who agrees with her on this point, seems to be saying that the English response to an ordered and legal separation would be mindless anger, irrationality, and forcing English taxpayers to foot the enormous and unnecessary bill for a great national sulk just to ram those destructive emotional imperatives home.
And that would just be the start. Imagine a UK foreign secretary or Prime Minister arriving in some overseas hotspot where a border is involved – “nah, just whack up walls, wires, border police, bugger everyone about to the max, and put rumble strips under the wheels of commerce – that’s what we do”.
I really rather doubt it. In fact, the idea is so stupid, I’m wondering whether perhaps Theresa May – who holds a job much less powerful than the media often suggests – has been suckered by her putative Tory leadership rivals.
I’m a unionist in broad terms, but I’m finding the dishonesty and negativity of the ‘No’ campaign – the way it treats Scots like dummies – increasingly offensive. Ironically, in view of Theresa May’s own comments on the subject in the past, the No campaign is becoming the Nasty campaign.
‘Natsy’ campaign by the BritNats who won every war they were ever involved in aren’t we Great together in Britbroke.
Good post Eric.
You seen Grahamski lately?
Why is the idea of an agreed CTA with Ireland accepted as a given, yet the same agreement with indy Scotland so unacceptable?
So Teresa May wants to turn the Scotland / England border into a Spain / Gibraltar lookalike with Scotland playing plucky Gibraltar and England the bad dagos.
The irony.
Everybody welcome going North and everybody cavity searched on the way South.
The Tories are completely off their chumps. They need sectioned and is Gruinard available for all of them?
And all the senile muppets at the Tory party piss up would be cheering wildly. The lunatics have escaped, only as far as the border I fear. Surely they can’t sink any lower..
I can just imagine some attendees at the conference nodding and agreeing at everything Big Tessy said. Roll on the 18th.
Thanks very much for posting your article Eric – it’s appreciated.
What a waste of time and space. All to round up twa Indian cooks. The Tories are a bunch of crooks.
Tories love wasting taxpayers money.
It is intended to frighten … again.
It may frighten a few, but it will offend many more. Another half percent swing to Yes?
My real fear is they figure this out and stop acting as Yes recruiters!
All the scaremongering nonsense is going to backfire.
It’s the same with Europe.
I don’t think I have met one person who seriously thinks we would be kicked out.
And it just makes people think the NO campaign will lie about anything to keep Scotland controlled from London.
I don’t care if there are border controls.
I don’t care if there is no currency union.
I don’t care if we are not in the EU.
I don’t care if we have to raise taxes.
I don’t care if RBS moves to London
I don’t care if Standard Life and Alliance Trust shut up shop.
I don’t care if BP and Shell don’t drill here.
I don’t care about Labour, Lib Dems or Tories
I don’t care what Better Together say.
I DO CARE ABOUT THE FUTURE AND YES IS THE FUTURE!!
A good read Eric.
Theresa May is displaying the same shallow characteristics of the majority of Westminster politicians. What she says they will do doesn’t bear any resemblance to what they actually do.
Modern politicians seem to think voters have no memory, or are unable to read old news articles. It’s just weird.
@Thepnr
Quite.
AND why, easy in four words “they are shitting themselves”
How many hours are in “hours hours”?
They just don’t know how to behave when in someone else’s country, do they?
Well just think what it would mean to Wee Willie Vague, a country nearby he could bomb on the cheap.
I’m a unionist in broad terms Eric I think a lot more people may agree with that if Scotland were part of a true union of equals but we are not and the only way we can be an equal nation is by voting yes then we can deal with the Wasteminster acting like a scorned partner it won’t be easy but I believe the international community will rally for iScotland
BT HMG SLAB are trying to bully us, belittle us, frighten us to show how big and powerful they are, and we should want them as our friends and protectors. They really are not very bright and certainly are pretty nasty pieces of work, don’t want anything to do with them. You can smell the fear from the big bully! maybe it’s something else. They really don’t have a very high opinion of the scardy daft wee jocks, just contempt.
The fear stories are starting to annoy more than scare.
Someone who is annoyed can be found at this new pro-independence site;
link to 1001campaign.com
@ Thepnr – Totally agree with you. Totally scunnered with b******t every day but the bright moments just shine like silver thrupnees in a clootie dumpling.
They don’t believe any of this guff. They just hope that enough of the jocks will swither in the booth and put their cross in the NO box.
Eric’s my MP, I didn’t vote for him and worry ceaselessly about whether he is getting the help he requires. But he is far more lucid, and clear, more often, than those holding ministerial office or their shadow counterparts.
For all his faults, he’s too good for them.
“No’ campaign – the way it treats Scots like dummies – increasingly offensive.” Scots for Dummies already been done,with great review too, on Amazon link to amazon.co.uk
And if your only taking offence now at bettertogether Mr Joyce, where have you been mannie!?
@Archie [not Erchie]
Yes silver thrupnees, sometimes you got lucky and got a tenner.
tanner LOL
The only reason a border will be erected between Scotland and the rUK will be if an independent Scotland adopts a different and looser immigration policy to the rUK (and before anyone starts ranting, please note the the republic of ireland has the same immigration policy and border controls to the UK which allows it to be part of the CTA). Under those circumstances Scotland will not be part of the CTA. Thus, for a border to be erected, it will entirely be the SGs own doing!! Ridiculous article.
“the republic of ireland has the same immigration policy and border controls to the UK”
No it doesn’t.
I’m in Berlin at the moment, and today I visited the Berlin Wall Memorial, Tränenpalast and Checkpoint Charlie. Seeing what the people of Germany had to go through during the Cold War just because two “big, strong and secure” states spent 40 years having a glorified cock-measuring contest, I find it more insulting than ever that people like Theresa May try to suggest we’d have border controls between Scotland and England.
There were families torn apart by the Berlin Wall, and people lost their lives trying to escape – yet people like May just casually drop hints of border guards etc to try and scare people from making a democratic choice.
The Germans are rightly proud that, in the end, German reunification came about through a peaceful people’s revolution, rather than one side bombing the other into submission. And yet, here we have idiot unionists trying to get in the way of democracy. You wonder how many of the “there’ll be guards at the border!” idiots have even an inkling of what went on in Germany between 1949 and 1989.
(Mind you, Maggie Thatcher wanted the Berlin Wall to stay up, so maybe Theresa’s just trying to emulate her hero…)
Theresa May’s talking out her arse in the hope that the newspapers will report her xenophobic ‘them and us’ border control nonsense. Sadly the news papers will do just that, it saves them doing any real journalism.
I mind growing up in the 70’s and 80’s when border controls and visas were a reality over much of Europe. I grew up with our media portraying Eastern Europeans as ‘them’ as opposed to ‘us’, and the same media telling me how different and dangerous their values were to ourselves.
Years later and most of these borders are gone. There’s Polish, Russians, Czechs – all nationalities, living and working together here in Laurencekirk, and it’s great, I like it, they’re good people and they’re very welcome.
Maybe Theresa just likes borders.
Maybe it makes her feel comfortable branding people ‘them’ and ‘us’.
I am becoming more and more in favour of these boarders, do we really want Theresa May roaming the streets of our civilized country. If there is every a reason for a boarder she’s it.
The tories and Tony Blair’s new labour always bring this statement from Chomsky to mind, and remind me why I’m so angry with the media
Modern industrial civilization has developed within a system of convienient myths. The driving force has been individual material gain, which is accepted as legitimate, even praiseworthy, on grounds that private vices yield public benefits in the classic formulation. It has long been understood very well that a society based on this principal will destroy itself in time. It can only persist with whatever suffering and injustice it entails as long as it is possible to pretend that the destructive forces that humans create are limited, that the world is an infinite resource and that the world is an infinite garbage can. At this stage in history one of two things is possible. Either the general population will take control of its own destiny and will concern itself with community interests guided by values of solidarity, sympathy and concern for others or alternatavely there will be no destiny for anyone to control. As long as some specialized class is in a position of athority, it is going to set policy for the special interests that it serves. But the conditions of survival let alone justice require rational social planning in the interests of the community as a whole and by now that means the global community. The question is whether privilaged elites should dominate mass communication and should use this power as they tell us they must, namely to impose nessesary illusions to manipulate and decieve the “stupid majority” and remove them from the public arena. The question in brief is whether democracy and freedom are values to be preserved or threats to be avioded.
David Cameron is also making dark threats in his speech to the Scottish Tory conference in Edinburgh:
link to bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk
This is just laughable when the current UK Borders Agency is a complete basket case, incapable of doing their basic functions as they stand – and they want to increase their duties at their own expense.
They’ll change their minds when they see the bill, the pillocks!
@BBC Scotlandshire – Spot on – Some of us are simply born to govern, and others are merely born to be governed. And you are such – LOL the imperialists summed up in a sentence.
Just came over th Border earlier today.
I wonder what the owner of Tebay Services in Cumbria or Carlisle retailers think about Theresa Mays comments given these folks depend on Scottish consumers.
Worth asking them.
I think you will find it does! Britain and Ireland opted out of Schengen to maintain the CTA. On immigration, EU member states are required to adopt a common approach to migration, and Scotland would have to abide by those rules. If Scotland sought to maintain a Common Travel Area with the UK, the rest of the UK/Ireland would insist on consistency on policy on to avoid Scotland’s becoming a way of avoiding whatever immigration rules were set for it.
The overall conclusion is that if Scotland were a separate, independent state it would have legal power over migration issues, but in practice its scope to diverge from EU and UK rules and approaches would be greatly constrained in practical and political terms. If Scotland chose to remain outside the EU, a border would be inevitable as it would be treated as a ‘third country’.
Good Article Eric, about time you came on board the YES Train. I was at a YES training course today and I did say when we were having a group discussion that you were the most lucid Labour Mp/Msp and worth listening too. Got to say that not many agreed, however I told them to check out your blog so this is a timely article.
@secretsquirrel – I thought we weren’t going to be in the EU..make up your mind..
Not the borders thing again,I had “you canny use the pound” down for today on the independence merry-go-round,must be that tomorrow then.
Eric,
As a unionist, in “broad terms”, can you explain why Westminster,or England, would break EU regulation by creating border posts that would contravene the EU regulations,unless rUK is no longer an EU member of course.
I was chillin out having a beer and listening to a little RATM… This hit me like a sledge hammer…
link to youtu.be
Good post Mr Joyce.
Seriously BT and Westminster are acting like panto villains. Every time I see one toddle up here for the daily fear blitz I have the uncanny urge to shout ‘THEY’RE BEHIND YOU’. 😀
@secretsquirrel – you’re ideas of immigration may I guess they are based on Daily Heil ideas of ‘immigrants’ being Eastern European, Poles, Slavs and Romanys, let me tell you that immigrants of all hues will be welcome in Scotland and also the biggest source of immigrants will undoubtedly be our good friends and neighbours from England and all will be welcome
Even on the Daily Mail comments of this story they are laughing at this suggestion.
Oh FFS nkt this old chestnut again… again… again…. again… is there a f***in echo in here?
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
‘not’… wish there was an edit function on wings. 🙁
worse still, she said – “So if Scotland had to join Schengen, it would have to construct border checks ”
So she’s not saying that rUK would build these things but that we would haveto do it even though her argument is that it would be a problem for them and not us.
Oh and “border posts at Berwick or Gretna Green” so one border post maybe?
Maybe she’s just got the wrong term for tourist information office.
If they want to be silly, they may have to do their RAF low-flying execises somewhere other than the Scottish highlands. Perhaps Holyrood might allow USAF aircraft to continue to train and exescise in Scottish airspace, all is always possible in international negotiations between sovereign states.
Who does she really believe she is talking to? For one, Ehm no feart, so what’s her “Plan B”?
She said more, that we would have to beg the EU with cap in hand to let us in.
link to theguardian.com
The EU has no interest in forcing a country with no land border with any of the existing Schengen countries to join Schengen. The EU (and Shengen) is all about fewer borders, not more, and faced with a paradox where someone joining Schengen would actually result in more borders is not going to need encouraging to back off.
OT Tomorrow will be the Venice referendum and the Crimean referendum.Both quite interesting if i may say so.
Sunday Herald front page;
link to twitpic.com
– BT will not be amused.
Good article,Eric,but you forgot to mention the Alsatians.Theyre going to need lots of them.Great big snarly ones with blood dripping from their fangs.And pity help any poor little Westie that strays the wrong side of the border.It will be stoned.For it will be a “furriner”.(The Alsatians will be alright.They know who their master is).
Some of these statements are becoming so boring , ridiculous and repetitious ,that one has to wonder if the only game left for the Better Together campaign now is simply to create apathy amongst voters so that they will turn off from the whole debate.
These people are less than pathetic. One thing we have to watch for is the number of people who would vote YES but are not registered to vote.
EUROPEAN ECONOMIC AREA
JOINT PARLIAMENTARY COMMITTEE
20TH MEETING
20 May 2003, Ålesund
RESOLUTIONS
Adopted pursuant to Rules 11 and 13 of the Rules of Procedure,
at the 20th meeting of the Joint Parliamentary Committee
in Ålesund, 20 May 2003
“7. Considers that all acceding countries should join the Schengen area as soon as possible; also considers, however, that this should result in the building of bridges with neighbors, not fencing them off;”
Thank you Mr Joyce. We’ll written article with a great deal of common sense assessment of the situation
A very good point made by Eric Joyce.
If border controls are brought up by the NO side in any debate, the YES side should categorically state that independent Scotland will NOT impose border controls with England irrespective of what England does, and will NOT spend a penny on such controls.
The NO camp will be left speechless and made to look like total fools.
Thanks Eric. Guid post although I have to say even the dyed-in-the-wool conservative & unionist better-together-is-too-ecumenical crowd must be listening to the border post horseshit with a wry smile. She has been banging on about border posts for ever in strict adherence to the law of diminishing returns. You do well tearing her point apart but I doubt her argument finds the audience her advisors think it will.
One wiling recipient could be Magnus Gardham – he wrote a piece about the “momentum” of Ruth Davidson’s rejuvenated party in the Herald today. I read it and looked in vain for the words “Advertisement Feature”.
It must be that I am one of those pro-Indy trolls but I can’t get my head round the idea of an educated man wasting everyone’s time with such snish. I googled this curio and found he has been the solo voice claiming BBC pro- Indy bias. Must be one o they parallel universes he (or I) live in. As long as we ain’t in the same one I’m good
So now that they’ve run out of anything new to scare us with, they’re recycling all the old stories. Really, marks out of ten for originality? Big, fat zero!!
@secretsquirrel
Irelands immigration policy is significantly different to the UK.
See here: link to wingsoverscotland.com
Its standardised checks, not policies.
Re UK Foreign Office briefing Russia to speak out against Independence a little while ago, well the Sunday Herald have a report about it tomorrow:
‘
Remember that great #indyrefski story of ours that Number 10 denied? Well if you buy the paper tomorrow you’ll find out it was bang on.’
Marcia… at the end of Tariq Ali’s Glasgow Uni talk, the Radical Independence Folk made a point of something happening in the Sunday Herald (I assumed possitive to Yes)… I get the feeling that the ‘Radical Left’ could do with growing a pair for being hoodwinked so easily… heck, I’m SNP, happy to be dubbed a Nationalist and dead centre (I reject the left/right paradigm lie). The Main Stream Media can never be trusted and shame on the radicals for being weak on that point.
…and still they cannot detract attention from the stench hanging over the corrupt City of London.
link to bbc.co.uk
Imagine regulators doing the same job in this country.
A good read Eric, ta. I’ve just got two points to make…
1. Just as well be bought Prestwick.
2. Why are you still a Unionist?
Libby McArthur and an article penned for the Daily Record was mentioned in an earlier thread today…
On that note, this is so worth a watch….
link to 1001campaign.com
Stand up and take a bow, Ms McArthur, inspirational!
Marcia… at the end of Tariq Ali’s Glasgow Uni talk, the Radical Independence Folk made a point of something happening in the Sunday Herald (I assumed possitive to Yes)… I get the feeling that the ‘Radical Left’ could do with growing a pair for being hoodwinked so easily… heck, I’m SNP, happy to be dubbed a Nationalist and dead centre (I reject the left/right paradigm lie).
link to politicalcompass.org
The Main Stream Media can never be trusted and shame on the radicals for being weak on that point.
More explanation here…
Do you mean, after decades of indifference for our road routes and we still don’t have a motorway from Newcastle to Edinburgh, Westminster will fork out millions to create border offices and security apparatus?
And all to teach English settlers in Scotland they live on the wrong side of the border?
Those nobs are nuts.
Oops sorry. First post got posted before I had finished compiling it.
@Grouse Beater – or those nuts are nobs 🙂
Alba4Eva
I saw the tail end of the Tarig Ali speech via the internet and the RIC speaker mentioned a piece that will be in next week’s edition not tomorrow. I may have picked him up wrong but I was under the impression it will be next week for that piece/article.
You must remember that this woman is a convicted criminal. Convicted of contempt of court but never reported anywhere but the internet. Why on earth would I want to listen to advice from a person who is supposed to be in charge of the criminal justice system but thinks its tenents do not apply to her?
Dose nobs sure as hell take da bisquit, Croompy.
Maybe I picked it up wrong Marcia, but I would still vehemently make the point that under no circumstances should ‘Radicals’ be courting the establishment MSM.
This is me saying this, from a perspective of being dead centre… ie. making logical decisions on an issue by issue basis… rather than from an ideological position.
O/T
Scotland and the rest of the Family of Nations in the UK could end up going to war against Russia if things start to spiral out of control.
That’s all of us except London.
The Tories and the Establishment want London to stay out of any conflict with Russia so it doesn’t affect the City of London financial institutions that hold all those Russian billions.
Sounds like a good deal to me. Because there is nothing that Scots love more than a good old fashioned war. Right!
link to theguardian.com
Eric is still a unionist because he doesn’t like borders and believes in the great global super-state where we’re all governed from Beijing or something like that. I think. I still don’t see how Beijing can sort out my street lighting though so I don’t think it’s quite that simple.
But we live on a planet that has a lot of different countries, and the number is growing, not decreasing. In that situation, putting the ideological goal of having a minimum number of separate countries in the world before the practical goal of the welfare of the citizens seems a bit perverse. We have borders and we’ve been acquiring more of them, and the people who’ve been involved with that seem quite happy with the outcome. So why is the 90 miles or so from Solway to Tweed such anathema?
If Scotland had been independent all along, would Eric be agitating to join with a right-wing welfare-cutting government in London? Does he think Danish people should be agitating to join with Germany? Norway to re-join with Sweden? Finland with Russia? The Czech Republic with Slovakia? India, Pakistan and Bangladesh? Should the Balkan states be re-forming Yugoslavia? All with the aim of eventually achieving the global super-state?
Well you know what, it’s not happening. Nobody wants to do any of that, neither for practical reasons nor for the idealistic reason of decreasing the number of countries in the world.
So why, why, why do so many Labour types think Scotland, uniquely, should sacrifice identity, resources and socialist principles in a futile attempt to prevent the number of independent countries on the Earth from increasing by one more?
So does this mean that from now on Saturday is Border scare day? I do hope I can get a list of these, so that I only have to glance at the newspaper’s headlines or News program on TV to work out which day of the week it is. I think Mondays are Currency scare day.
Back on topic for this article, this story was flagged up on my Google newsfeed, with the linked article being a London Evening Standard piece. The comments were funny, even the tories and UKIP supporters commenting on this think it is unremittingly stupid.
@Eric Joyce.
Nice, well crafted article, but…
I’m not the only one who remembers you as a major mouthpiece for the invasion of Iraq.
How many times were you on Lesley Riddoch’s Radio Scotland afternoon show, pressing the case for war?
Wasn’t it you who appeared on the CH4 debate, live, in your white suit, trying to persuade us all that ‘Saddam’ was a pressing threat?
Without the intense propaganda effort, the Commons would not have voted for ‘war’ on Iraq.
You were heavily involved in that propaganda, and that’s why, to me, you will always be a war criminal – you didn’t take part in any atrocities, aye, but you helped create the circumstances whereby ‘we’ all approved invasion (via Westminster) and the atrocities have been ongoing for almost a decade.
I applaud Rev’s allowing you space here, and, for what it’s worth, I echo what you’ve said in the space allotted, but it doesn’t make me despise you any the less.
Remember this, Mr Joyce : “Every soul shall know what it has done.”
And Dave isn’t bothered about Putin, because one of the family of nations in the UK has got loads of nukes pointing right at Moscow, and it would blow Moscow right off the map.
But if we are going to blow them off the map, then will Russia not blow our WMD base right off the map.
And where is that base Dave? Oh, that’s right, the Clyde.
Time for a song.
Who’s singin first.
One David Cameron’s spin doctors requested
Here’s a song for Dave and the English Establishment.
link to youtu.be
shit – I done it 🙂
@ Morag – ” So why, why, why do so many Labour types think Scotland, uniquely, should sacrifice identity, resources and socialist principles in a futile attempt to prevent the number of independent countries on the Earth from increasing by one more?” ” – Wonderful, please don’t copyright as I want to forward
This is hilarious and can’t believe that the so called sane people, educated people who run our country are behaving like this? Well believe it because it’s all part of their APATHY strategy. They don’t care who laughs at them and their stupid mouthings they just want to get the bile out there and into every newspaper and on to every tv. The idea IS to put as many prople off voting as possible. They want people to turn off. They want no shows They want low turn out.
Theresa May is a large shareholder of Border Biscuits, therefore whenever she mentions the word “Border”, she gets a Viennese whirl.
@CyberNiall love it! Hehehe! 🙂
Whatever Eric Joyce has done in the past re Iraq War, I say let bygones be bygones.
He was a cheerleader, yes, but he didn’t make the decision and like a lot of people throughout the UK he was duped by the dossier and the assurances of Tony Blair in the house of Commons, that he (TB) had saw ‘evidence’ from security services, that proved the Iraqi’s had the ability to launch a chemical strike on the UK in the near future.
I fully understand Ian Brotherhoods point, but I also feel that Eric sounds like he is on ‘The Journey’ from Unionist to Yes and as a well kent Labour Man his conversion would make a hell of a lot of Labour People sit up and take stock.
He also has a very good way of expressing himself in print, and this would prove invaluable in reaching out to wavering Labour types.
So C’mon over to the bright side Eric, you can’t just sit there wining about how offended and insulted you are, about the way Westminster is speaking to Scotland, as all that is happening is the pressure of the rising Yes vote, is causing the Tory/Labour/Lib Dems to express feelings about us, that they have needed to repress in the past.
Depp down inside you know it, so get of the fence.
You can hurt the Tory’s a lot more than you ever did by sticking the head on them, by declaring your conversion to Yes and joining the fight for Scotland’s self respect.
So do you think Theresa May, representing HMG as the UK Home Secretary, might know something about these new claims of international espionage against our European partners?
UK surveillance hub GCHQ ‘tapping Belgian undersea cables’
link to stratrisks.com
I would hate to think this might have anything to do with other matters.
Vodafone: No UK tax to pay on £84bn sale
link to bbc.co.uk
Vodafone paid zero UK corporation tax last year
link to telegraph.co.uk
At first I was inclined to think there was a renewed flare up of Mad Cow Disease down south but on second thought it is just so sad that the English allow themselves to be governed by such creatures that in a few months all sane Scots will reject.
Doug Daniels was dead on with his Berlin comments – I lived there when the wall was well up and crossed regularly for 6 years and the sheer bloody-mindedness of the whole business and the waste of time and energy and on occasion even of lives was mind-boggling.
Nevertheless, Scotland will need border controls of some sort for two reasons – to catch UK war criminals who might be sneaking about and to make sure the poisonous Theresa Mae doesn’t get in.
I live in Dumfries and Galloway. The A 75 Euroroute runs through the region from Gretna to Stranraer and on to Cairnryan which is now teh main ferry port for Stena and P and O ferries to Belfast and Larne. Roughly one million vehicles a year use the ferries.
The car traffic on the A 75 is largely made of people travelling from Northern Ireland to England and vice versa. The main traffic however is large lorries using the ‘short sea crossing’ (shorter than direct services between all Ireland and England/ Wales) -travelling from The Irish Republic and Northern Ireland to England and also on to Europe.
This traffic is of no ‘value’ to Scotland, it is simply passing through Dumfries and Galloway. But if there are customs at Gretna they will hold up this non-Scottish traffic. Also- would there have to be similar customs arrangements at Belfast and Larne?
If so, then this would be a stunning example of how, in order to annoy the Scots, the rUK is going to end up REALLY annoying the Irish Republic, the loyal and not so loyal folk of Northern Ireland,English travellers and businesses, and businesses in the rest of the EU.
A couple of Sunday Herald stories
I MacWhirter
link to heraldscotland.com
And their lead on why we need to vote Yes
link to heraldscotland.com
Alba4Eva
Thanks for the Ed Griffin post. A reminder of how the system does control via the elite and banking.
The internet is the greatest threat to this control and as post 911 excuses to close down our freedom will be found.
Ian Brotherhood
I understand your anger but we all make mistakes and the article stands alone on the topic covered. I think this is a forum where we should judge the content and quality of a post not the source.
e.g. politician or punter / Lord or labourer all voices should be equal here or we undermine the very thing we are trying to achieve.
The Independent not being independent on independence:
link to independent.co.uk
When will these Tories ever learn? Scotland doesn’t have an immigration problem, it has an emigration problem because of Westminster centrist economic, social and political policies. Everyone is squashed into a congested London S/E and Scotland is half empty. Scotland pays for it.
@Jute Man.
Oi! That name’s taken! 😉
Oh the irony. Eric Joyce.
I was going to share this on FB the other day, lucid and pointed as it is. I didn’t, because Eric Joyce wrote it. And that in itself demonstrates just how ugly this debate has become.
I have a deep mistrust of the motivations of those who are late to the party. I don’t believe there is such a thing as a Damascene conversion in the indy debate; you either hold democracy in the highest regard or you don’t. The circumstances may have changed, but the rules, the moral rights and wrongs, are still governed by the same shared definitions.
As his Bobness said, you don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing.
O/T
Good article on Scottish shipbuilding in SoS this morning
link to archive.is
Interesting ComRes poll on EU voting intentions.
UKIP in lead at 33% for England/Wales, in last on 6% in Scotland. (See page 33). SNP on 39% in lead for Scotland, Labour trail at 19%.
Interesting to note UKIP highest in Midlands on 39%, lowest in SE at 29%.
link to comres.co.uk.pdf
O/T
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WELL DONE Eric Joyce. Unionist or not; some integrity and courage shown in the face of irrational threats !
Jeeeez …do the Unionist Parties not get bored with regurgitating the same crap day in, day out.
God help them when something serious comes along, and they have to do proper work for once.
You never know, the referendum in the Crimea and a Russian declaration might have them foaming at the mouth by the end of the day!
Borders, Well we,ve hud the,
Iron Curtain
Berlin Wall
Chain link fence curtain (america,mexico )
Bamboo curtain ( thats making sure there,s no confusion between
the Emburgh Panda,s & Mundell ).
Am in faviour of A Silk Saltire curtain border, topped with Spun
Sugar Razor Wire ( as a wee sweetener,for people to come & visit
Scotland, ( & free candy apples tae awe the wains passing through).
@Thistle’s fundraiser for live events still going beyond its target sure it can get to at least £1000.
link to indiegogo.com
Ruth D’s big idea coming up today is to scrap free prescriptions, go back to means testing, £6.85 charge.
She’ll say it’s to pay for midwifes and nurse.
Wonder if she’s calculated the admin costs?
Oh dear Euan McColm on Headlines, why do they use him, really.
The unpublished annex to the UKCES report says that the southern parts of England will ‘continue to experience the most favourable trends’, while the rest of England and the other UK nations will ‘fall further behind’ relatively.
How many more reasons do we need to vote Yes?
Enjoyed watching Eck skewering Andrew Marr this morning!
Aye Marr lost it at the end, stating that I think you would find it very difficult to get into Europe and then denying that it was his opinion and this just after he said I have spoken to Barroso you haven’t!!!
Don’t know why we are not telling these people, you are not the continuing state, there are two continuing states.
Unless of course we don’t want to be a continuing state,
I thought before that the liabilities would match the assets but perhaps they don’t have much in the way of assets compared to debt!!!
Headlines… The unionists ‘magic beans’, suggests Ken McD on his programme as an alternative to the jam tomorrow argument I rather like that,as someone famous once said.
It has become a comedy programme today, tittering like school kids in the back of the class. Gently extracting the uric acid from the tories and labour mostly. Still it’s a way of passing a Sunday morning. BBC taking it off the air soon when the referendum broadcasting rules kick in.
Just listening to “Headlines” with Ken McDonald on BBC Scotland (online).
Wings and Bella were mentioned, then they go on to discuss the Tory conference in Edinburgh.
Ken puts it that the halls were fairly empty, the female commentator (missed her name, sorry) says halls are usually pretty empty at any party conference.
I seem to remember very empty halls at a Labour conference, to the degree that the BBC asked people to move lower and closer together so they could get decent camera shots. And an SNP conference where they had to commission not one but two overspill halls…
Ken McDonald’s “Headlines” has been a must-listen because he picks up even pro-indy online media stories and the guests aren’t all BT bots.
It is not a surprise that “Headlines” is to be axed by BBC in Scotland. Maybe too “off-message”, i.e. maybe giving equal time/attention to pro-/anti-independence stories/commentators. Not the BBC idea of “impartiality”.
Doesn’t Ken McDonald do science stories for BBC Scotland? I remember seeing several clips of him explaining research and scientific advances done by Scottish universities.
Maybe he has a scientific background and values an objective, evidence-based approach. Which might be too much for BT and their lackeys McQuarrie and Booth…
I enjoyed Headlines this morning, not sure the Better Together peeps will have. Even Euan was putting the boot into the way Labour are positioning themselves and the way MPs brief against MSPs. The Academic for Yes chap (I missed his name) was very articulate (as one might hope from an academic) and made a number of good points.
The piece on Cameron’s super group – Major, Brown, Blair and Cameron to talk up the Union did cause a lot of laughter not least the vision of them all lasting about 5 minutes before trying to strangle each other.
Theresa May, the UK Home Secretary, yesterday told the Scottish Conservative conference – “A Yes vote in the Scottish referendum would see the UK government putting up passport and immigration controls at the border”.
The Westminster Scottish Affairs Committee said, – “Independence will have a damaging effect on higher Education”.
Scots Tories say “End Free Prescriptions”.
English Local Government Association says, “Wealthy people living alone to lose Council Tax Discount”.
Scottish Tory Chairman Richard Keen says, “There is a fundamental problem with the current constitutional set-up in Holyrood”.
Vince Cable says, “No-one needs £1 million a year”.
Michael Gove says, “The number of former Eton Pupils in Prime Minister David Cameron’s inner circle is ridiculous”.
English Democrats say, ”We will hold to hold conference”.
Chickin Lickin, (after an Acorn fell on her head), said to Hen Len, “The Sky’s falling down on my head”.
@jingly jangly
Did Andrew Marr not break the BBC impartiality code, by stating that Scotland wouldn’t be allowed into EU.
This was after Alex Salmond explained to him that Scotland was already in the EU.
Alex Salmond also explained in great detail why a currency union is what Scotland will be adopting after a YES vote,
It was as if Andrew Marr didn’t listen to a word he said, because in his next question to Alex Salmond he asked an almost identical question. Which had Alex Salmond laughing in disbelief.
Did he not do a documentary recently about the royals or similar.
Andrew Marr is turning into a desperate, bitter unionist who can see his beloved UK falling apart at the seams.
And I will also be writing to the BBC about his comments this morning.
Scotland on Sunday continues to act as Labour Party ‘election’ pamphleteer, which is a bit strange as a large majority of its readers will be Conservatives.
Yes, secret squirrel, there are border controls between ROI and the uk mainland. In part BECAUSE of the differing immigration policies!
At the same time it’s true, there are no strong controls between it and Northern Ireland, also part of the UK.
It’s clear which of these is more analogous to a Scotland / rUK situation, should we adopt different policies. And that’s why the Tories are banging on about it. Unfortunately, they do have a bit of a leg to stand on, even if their extrapolated position of a fortified, manned border across the entire island is clearly extreme (for scare reasons)
Theresa May,the UK Home Secretary,yesterday told the Scottish Conservative conference – “A Yes vote in the Scottish referendum would see the UK government putting up passport and immigration controls at the border”.
The Westminster Scottish Affairs Committee said, – “Independence will have a damaging effect on higher Education”.
Scots Tories say “End Free Prescriptions”.
English Local Government Association says, “Wealthy people living alone to lose Council Tax Discount”.
Scottish Tory Chairman Richard Keen says, “There is a fundamental problem with the current constitutional set-up in Holyrood”.
Vince Cable says,“No-one needs £1 million a year”.
Michael Gove says, “The number of former Eton Pupils in Prime Minister David Cameron’s inner circle is ridiculous”.
English Democrats say, ”We will hold a conference”.
Chickin Lickin, (after an Acorn fell on her head), said to Hen Len, “The Sky’s falling down on my head”.
@\albalha
Did You mean Ruth Davidson wants prescription charges to be the same in Scotland as in England.
Because the prescription charges in England will be rising to £8.25 per item by 2015/16.
link to express.co.uk
Scottish Tories are also looking at charging £9000/£10000 a year university fees.
And as for Scottish Labour and wee Johann, well she’ll have all of the above and more.
Because this is not a “something for nothing” society.
See this subject?
Never been bored-er.
caz-m – I do believe that Marr did break the BBC’s impartiality rules, either that or was now providing a view by the BBC.
It was clear as Alex Salmond did ask Marr if it was his (Marr’s) view or that of the BBC.
I knew from the outset that Marr would be attacking what ever Alex Salmond stated and was sticking to a pre defined script (why he kept on about currency, despite being answered.
The Marr comment regarding Barroso was really desperate as, since that interview, Barroso’s comments have been rubbished, but Marr was sticking to his ‘he knows best’ that Barroso was correct and everyone including French politicians, wrong.
At the end of the interview with Alex Salmond, Marr noticeably cut sharply away avoiding the usual end of interview pleasantries. It made Marr a sad and stupid figure, the kind that attracts comments of ‘doesn’t he look desperate’ or ‘perhaps Marr should retire as he is no longer objective’
Its this sort of madness that reveals what they really think of us. For them its 1705 again and the alien act was never repealed just suspended.
It is this sort of two-faced swivel eyed lunatic party, Bettertogether want me to vote no for.
I am increasingly of the opinion that no scot who voted no, is going to be able to hold their heads up after this. They are going to be mocked, traduced and held in contempt. Not by those who wanted independence, but by those who wanted them to vote no. They are the one group of people who have the most to lose. If its yes, then the union ends and they get to see just how well regarded we were. If the vote is no, they will be regarded as the scrounging Scots who couldn’t give up their English subsidy.
Bettertogether have done such a hatchet job on Scotland reputation that the Union is going to survive a no vote.
No that’s irony.
I may be wrong but I thought Marr nailed his colours to the mast not so long ago and is firmly in the No camp. He isn’t impartial and we shouldn’t really expect him to be. Consequently we should consider his approach and statements as if they come from that side of the house.
The BBC is not impartial so appeals to their charter are utterly pointless we know this already. They lie a lot from Savile to Iraq to McCrone to Scottish independence. They have form.
Anent Iain McWhirter’s piece in the Herald. He mentions the 5% swing required for Yes and then states “I don’t think it shall be as close as that”.
This ambiguity from a journalist who castigates the tory statement “can” v “will” is sad.
Time for him to come off the fence.
It must be starting to hurt his perineum.
He knows as we all do that it won’t be that close!
What is this Com Res EU poll people are talking about, anyone know?
Being brave enough to break ranks is, I imagine, why Eric Joyce increased his majority in successive elections for Westminster.
Let’s just apply a little logical common sense – shall we?
(That’s opposed to the application of illogical,”Commons”, non-sense. Border controlls at Gretna would needs be applied across the entire Scotland/England border. As happened when Bruce invaded England, (when Scots just crossed the Solway sands on horseback). What is more any Scot who required access to England only need be able to row a boat. Not to mention those returning after a holiday in Spain via a channel port. Could a Kingdom of England, unaided by the present Scottish subsidy and with their import/export figures missing the Sterling input of the net exports of the Kingdom of Scotland they presently enjoy, afford to maintain such a complete border control? They do, after all have rather long shorelines which would need to also include all Ireland’s shoreline too.
Ronnie Anderson @ 8.58
“free candy apples tae awe the wains ”
Why would candy apples place hay wagons in a state of wonder or fear?
The real UK immigration policy from as long as I can remember has been:
“Come one, come all.”
It makes the economy bigger stupid.
HandandShrimp
The poll being referred to is taken from the regular Sunday Independent/Sunday Mirror poll. The European Election poll is one of the questions in the UK poll. The figures being quoted for Scotland are just a sub sample of the larger poll. You should treat sub samples with caution as these are not weighted. I treat some of the figures with extreme caution. The LD vote is way too high. 🙂
Mr McWhirter is up an doon like a diarrhetic.
One minute yay, next it’s nay, and all time in atween the airmcheer and the chunty it’s an Oh Oh mibbee.
A hedge-bet reporter, nothing more (or less).
Got off my arse (metaphorically) and found the poll. Interesting
Page 37 is the relevant one
link to comres.co.uk
The fact that down south UKIP are in front on 30% is…a bit of a surprise. I didn’t think they were that popular.
They are trying to make it sound like this…
One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its black gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep. The great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire, ash, and dust. The very air you breathe is a poisonous fume.”
—-Boromir at the Council of Elrond
That Radio Scotland programme, ‘Headlines’, was frankly infantile.
If Ken MacDonald had a pair he would give BBC Scotland a two fingered salute and join Derek Bateman on his blog and Isabel Fraser would join him. But they won’t. The BBC pays them handsomely to strut their stuff and they’re wage slaves.
As for Eric Joyce, why do we give that man so much ‘copy’.
He simply can’t be trusted and we ought to give him a large body swerve.
Off topic. The Bella Caledonia website is saying that the BBC radio Scotland programme, Headlines, is to be axed. Presumably because it gives the yes campaign a fair hearing. I’m appalled but sadly not surprised.
@mosstrooper. 10.49am.
Ha ha ha! Brilliant. It’s so nice to read a posting from someone who so obviously knows how to spell.
Some of the postings on this site contain so many misspellings it’s like reading the efforts of five year olds.
For crying out loud, go out and buy a fekking English dictionary, and buy a Scots dictionary while you’re at it.
@cazm
“Did You mean Ruth Davidson wants prescription charges to be the same in Scotland as in England.
Because the prescription charges in England will be rising to £8.25 per item by 2015/16.”
No I meant £6.85, as stated, as that’s what she’s expected to say.
Free prescriptions are not free, the drug companies still get their money.
They just want MORE money.
O/T – Mr Marr got his erse skelped from Eck this morning.
Marr said that he (Marr) thought that Scotland would not be admitted to the EU – Eck was onto him like a flash and Marr started backtracking. I think Marr was fortunate that there was a slight time delay in the interview otherwise it would have been even more embarrassing for him.
o/t All this stuff with the Crimea could have been avoided if other countries also paid attention to the UN rules.
If the BBC axe Headlines they will sever my last link with BBC Scotland News.
Thinking about border controls a little more: in the event of them ever becoming a reality, for whatever reason or emergency, it means jobs for people in Scotland.
No border controls, everybody wins. Border controls, Scotland wins.
@Mosstrooper 10.49.Whit else wuld we dey wie the left over candy
waste not want not.LOL
Rev, Andrew Marr was quik to dismiss the Brasso interchange with
ALx Salmond,( as not a Bbc opinion ) a word in his ear piece perhaps.
any chance of a transcript,( naw Brasso,s no ma usual misspell.
o/t From Friday, Tariq Ali in support of Yes.
link to youtube.com
Nice article BUT you need to think. If we join the EU we will be obliged to sign up to the Schengen agreement. That will take us out of the Common Travel Area. As the rest of the U.K. has not signed up to Schengen. We would be obliged by the EU to set up border controls. As free movement under Schengen is s proven problem for immigration into the U.K. even now the rest of the UK would have to set up border controls.As an ex Immigration Officer I do have some idea of what I’m talking about on this matter.
“Nice article BUT you need to think. If we join the EU we will be obliged to sign up to the Schengen agreement.”
No we won’t.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Just listened to Douglas Fraser’s “Business in Scotland”, a.k.a. doom and gloom if Scotland goes independent BBC in Scotland broadcast (online).
I was struck by the female panellist, apparently working in fashion. She preferred to stay with the UK because she doesn’t like uncertainty, and Scots fashion industry wouldn’t be able to show at the London Fashion Week.
Hellooo! Real world calling!!!
If her business only shows at UK fashion shows, her business isn’t going to take off. You need to show internationally.
I know of three Finnish fashion designers (ex-students of my mum) from Finland showing at London Fashion Week. Even at the other fashion weeks (NY, Milan, Paris).
And this entrepreneur in the fashion industry wants to have total certainty, as provided by the UK gov in her opinion, in the most volatile industry in the world.
She’s in the wrong business if she wants certainty. The fashion industry is famously fickle (=volatile). Oil industry volatily is nothing compared to the fashion industry, FFS! Something can become “the thing” for no apparent reason, regardless of any constitutional arrangements. Those funny rubber shoes (Crocs) and recent adoration and popularity of Harris Tweed are just two recent cases in point.
However much Scottish fashion designers hate tartan, they can turn that into their advantage, not wait for the English Vivienne Westwood and her acolytes to do it – stealing it for England… sorry, UK.
It’s time Scottish fashion designers reclaimed tartan (even if it was ironically) and did their own creative thing, not in thrall to London. Think NY, Milan, Paris, but also Brisbane, Bombay and Beijing! Think of all those opportunities!
Scotland already has an unbelievable national brand. A Finnish committee of ministers and business leaders were desprerate to develop a “brand Finland”. Needless to say, anything top-down is ridiculous.
Scotland doesn’t need “Brand Britain”. Scotland’s got its own brand. In no particular order, kilts, Trainspotting, glorious misty mountains with moody weather, bagpipes, shortbread, castles, history, Inspector Rebus, whisky… even deep-fried heroin. Internationally Scotland has a distinctive, positive brand. Scotland doesn’t need the ( r)UK riding on its coat-tails.
More hilarious stuff from Theresa “I’m not making this up” May, who thought she could get away with saying the Human Rights law meant a person could not be deported because they owned a cat. Yes, you were making it up actually Theresa; this effort on borders is pretty much on a par with that for fatuous stupidity.
Mr Fraser, was that the same fashion designer who Cameron picked out of the ‘crowd’ at his sermon from mount Olympiad in London two weeks ago, you know the planted question, first one up!
Still no buttons, zips or velcro at the back of the head yet.
Must hear ‘The First Eck’ on playback with Marr later, sounds like a good listen.
Think Andrew Marr should have been at the tolly party shindig in Embra, I don’t mean working I mean as one of the cheer leaders, or does he not visit the old reservation. He really has gone completely native in LONDINIUM hook, line and sinker, he is a very bitter and angry man. Very sad quite pathetic. A sicko especially if he actually believes the garbage he spews with venom and bile.
ECK WAS SUPERB!
Do the people not understand that these carpetbaggers are fighting to maintain their level of theft from the tax payers.When Scotland becomes independent there will be less money for their deep corrupt egoistic pooches
I think Andrew Marr is a poor soul who should not be working. I believe his stroke has left him with significant mobility issues and I don’t think he’s up to the job any more. It’s a sad indictment of our society that someone with these health problems is obliged to go on working.
I was given his “new” book for Christmas, The Battle for Scotland. It turned out to be a very old book with just a new introduction and a new cover. The introduction contained a number of serious typos which were all of the “sounds like” variety – for example “salt tyre” for “saltire”. It was clear that the author was not typing but was using voice recognition software, and was incapable of proofreading the result for such errors.
I feel profoundly sorry for him, but GIVE HIM A PENSION AND GET HIM OFF OUR SCREENS.
Border Controls?
After independence, new parties could be created…free socialists, idiotfree labour, truly liberated liberals.
Tories?….naw…deport them ower the border wi’ their fancy expensive shotguns, plus fours, range rovers and all the other shite they’re associated wi’ and see how long they can survive in the dog eat dog, looting and pillaging riotous nightmare the south will rapidly become when the debt – ridden pound finally goes down the pan.
Come to think of it, border controls might not be such a bad idea after all.
Thanks for the tip, you stupid, devious, arrogant shower of shit.
“I think Andrew Marr is a poor soul who should not be working. I believe his stroke has left him with significant mobility issues and I don’t think he’s up to the job any more. It’s a sad indictment of our society that someone with these health problems is obliged to go on working.”
WHO is obliging Andrew Marr to go on working? The BBC?
Unlike millions of people in this country, he is NOT obliged to go on working. He would have made plenty of money from his lucrative contract with the BBC to retire comfortably.
If anything, it would only be his greed and or ego that obliges to carry on working – interviewing the high and mighty, Barroso for example.
Eric – one thing you’ll find about the scotNats is we’re an accepting lot and we put past differences behind us.
If you choose indy we’ll take you on board the good ship indy.
We don’t hold grudges and we don’t keep score cards and I for one rather enjoyed a Tory getting his comeuppance.
In the spirit of the border control plan, I hope Cameron and his westminster based non scots chums were strip searched and fingered by a gentleman with a white glove looking for the drugs they were so obviously taking in edinburgh.
All in the spirit of the thing you understand..
Craig, you might have missed the exact position of the tongue, there….
I don’t suppose he’s been forced to do an ATOS assessment, no.
I know she is stupid, but does she not realize most of us will still have UK passports?
A message from an involuntary expat:
Doesn’t anyone realise that the desire for Scotland to be independent is a symptom of having such an in effectively designed central government? Instead if pulling away, Scotland could collaborate with Wales and N Ireland (and England if there were such an individual country) to reorganise the central government in a more democratic way, where each country is represented and managed equally, and the central government is set apart from them (similarly in concept to the US federal government — but not TOO like them!).
I think its about time we just called everyones bluff, the EU might not let us in because spain would block it. Really? they would vote to exclude themselves from some of the biggest and richest fishing grounds in Europe??? Fair enough, good news for our fishermen then.
Morag, I have not missed anything.
You stated that “it’s a sad indictment of our society that someone with these health problems is obliged to go on working.”
When one is talking about Andrew Marr, it is a totally ridiculous statement.
No one has obliged Marr to go on working and he has absolutely no need to do so.
The BBC has filled his trousers, at our expense, for a very long time. He has been anti-Scottish independence for a very long time.
Are you turning into a Derek Bateman type apologist?
Of course Theresa May and Westminster can’t control “immigration” to the UK via the south-east of England at present. Indeed, they’re still cutting the Borders Agency budget and personnel. It’s all nonsense. They can’t afford new border posts even if they seriously wanted too.
More interesting is what they will do with the millions of EU citizens currently in England after the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland remove themselves from the EU?
o/t sorry. Can anyone point me to an article on what Standard Life etc said prior to the devolution referendums (referenda) of the past? It appeared one of our major pro-independence sites but I can’t find it. I have tried.
A local guy requires the info for an article in a Yes leaflet for wide-local distribution. Thanks.