The lonely hours
We take our hats off to the No campaigners who braved a cold, dark Scottish morning to go and hand out leaflets to the public at train stations across the country today.
We’d have preferred it if they were distributing leaflets that weren’t packed with a litany of flat-out lies, of course, but we suppose you can’t have everything.
Having given “Better Together” 24 hours notice that we’d be watching, we expected them to put in an extra-special effort at getting their people out, and indeed several of our spotters reported conversations with the No leafleters in which they said that this site’s observation was used to try to gee up reluctant activists.
Despite such urgings, many of the stations on BT’s “events” list were still, according to our readers on the scene, complete no-shows, including those at Aviemore, Bishopbriggs, Glasgow Duke Street, Cupar, Inverness, Montrose, Newton and Pitlochry (below), as well as several more.
Many other locations managed to rustle up just a single body to heroically defend the Union – most poignantly at Clarkston, where Labour’s former finance spokesman Ken McIntosh MSP mounted a solo stand (below).
Gourock:
Fort Matilda:
Glasgow Queen Street:
Alert readers will have noticed something of a shortage of members of the public in any of these shots. (Activists at Perth were moved on by ScotRail staff after venturing onto station property in search of prey, contrary to the company’s rules on political campaigning.) However, where some could be found the “Goodbye to the pound” leaflets were enthusiastically received:
Rutherglen above, Edinburgh Haymarket below:
At Johnstone, our observers were in place for the entire allotted hour of campaigning, and counted the activist giving out a total of 11 leaflets, just short of the 5000 target set by “Better Together” for its big weekend. Monitoring at other locations reported similar hit rates.
In a surprise move which smashed the world irony record, the Scottish Daily Mail took time out from doorstepping, photographing and vilifying Yes supporters as part of its Labour-backed “Cybernat Watch” witch-hunt to accuse our spotters of undertaking a “spying mission” against people actively campaigning in public places.
(Bizarrely it also suggested that BT was leafleting “160” stations, which is twice as many as even the No camp itself claimed.)
“Better Together”, meanwhile, was decrying our readers’ documenting of public events as variously “trolling”, “intimidating and creepy”, “surveillance and harassment” and “unacceptable”, while at the same time describing ordinary Scots as “an army of flying monkeys”. (We’ve asked for details of any alleged “harassment”, having explicitly asked our spotters NOT to harass or insult anyone, but none has been forthcoming.)
So if you go up to ordinary members of the public minding their own business outside their own homes with their kids, shove a camera in their face, then print their names and pictures in a national newspaper calling them “sinister”, “rabid” “agitators”, “bullies” and “yobs” spewing “online poison”, that’s just good honest journalism that Labour MSPs and MPs will happily endorse and lend their names and pictures to.
But if you quietly and politely observe people who are actively engaged in open political campaigning in public places – naming nobody, showing nobody’s face, insulting nobody, not ridiculing anybody’s private life – then you’re a monster.
It’s a funny game, the independence debate.
Love that Ken McIntosh MP had to do some real work this morning, and couldn’t get anyone to hold his hand. Aw, bless.
And an uplifting experience where adults talk to adults rather than twitter troll armies combatting each other
I’m currently saving up all my holidays to get out and campaign full-time closer to the referendum.
I trust McDougall and Hothersall rushed to support alleged ‘cybernats’ when pictures of them, their location and other personal details were splashed across pages of a national newspaper?
No sayers campaigning INSIDE Waverley Station shock! Tsk.
Aye, another Bitter Together damp squib.
Do you get the feeling that moral has collapsed in their ranks?
Just how many nauseating kicks to the groin can you suffer before one says “sod it”.
That will be remembered as the Clarkston Rally when Ken McIntosh becomes the leader of Labour in Scotland.
The thin red line – lonely, isolated Scottish Labour members distributing leaflets filled with lies, paid for by rich Tories, and supported and defended by the vile right-wing Daily Mail.
I realise even some Yes supporters have criticised this, but I really don’t see what else can be done. Better Together have a track record of either exaggerating their numbers or just flat-out lying about campaigning taking place, and the media has no interest in challenging them on their claims, so how else do we get it out to the public that when they say “we’ve held 8 million events this year and handed out 50 gigaspillion leaflets”*, they’re telling lies?
*(I may have paraphrased slightly there…)
More to the point, if we know in advance that BT are going out to hand out blatant lies to the public, surely it’s the Yes campaign’s duty to be there to balance things out with facts?
Sorry, but if Blair McDougall and the likes want to try and take the moral high ground, they shouldn’t be indulging in a wholly negative campaign based on telling people lies, rather than simply trying to convince people why they should vote No, instead of why they shouldn’t vote Yes.
Crocodile tears.
Er-hm. link to twitter.com
That Ken McIntosh one is in a genuine way quite sad….
Here is the Labour Party Membership choice for leader standing on his OWN outside a freezing cold railway station handing out leaflets.
Whilst I disagree with his position you can actually admire that……
Mind you he must have seriously p*ssed off JoLa and the leadership to be sent on such a menial tasks without any back up.
Speaking of JoLa has she been spotted doing her bit or was the Subway not on BT’s list ?
That first picture looks like a scene from The Exorcist … horror no-show for BT.
No show in dumbarton or if they were there they done a good job of hiding it.
Looking forward to Arbroath this evening. I’ll put on my tweed gillies suit, to avoid disturbing the
peasantspheasants.The BritNats’ response was predictable and no doubt will get a run in the press tomorrow, but don’t let that detract from a hugely impressive effort at documenting the referendum process.
We have now have confirmed sightings of the lesser-spotted no campaigner in a number of habitats across the country, and this data is of great importance to zoologists concerned about the fate of this endangered creature.
That, and Duncan Hothersall is just jealous he could never mobilise half as many fowk in a week never mind 24 hours.
I’ve just finished reading the daily malice’s obvious attack on our right of free speech, and to say I’m flabbergasted at the sheer hypocrisy of their vile biased reporting would be an understatement.
They claim that 160 stations are being targeted by BT shower.
I thought it was 100?
They also have a picture of a rear car window with a ukok sticker on it.
I wonder if I put a YES sticker on my old scrapper and smash the back window, if they’ll print it in their jingoistic rag.
I see they’ve still not reported on a crazed britnat attacking a disabled pensioner who was YES campaigning in Edinburgh yet.
I think its about time we showed BT how leafletting is done at train stationws.
Of course after the bad weather has broken.
Love it – makes the financial support of an older YES-er so worthwhile. Wonder what your final results will show ?
I’ll need to keep an eye on my local station! I live 2 minutes from it, if they’re there, I’ll take a pic and send it
People of all political colours should be applauded, in this day and age, for going out at 7am on a freezing January morning trying to put across their views.
Unfortunately this particular event seemed to involve just handing out leaflets full of utter nonsense. As Doug said, it’s the duty of the other side to be out there too, handing out their leaflets/newspapers, and trying to engage enthusiastically.
shouldn’t this site be called wings over bath the rev lives there and doesn’t have a vote
@john mcvey
I met one lonely guy at Dumbarton. Only 1 entrance covered. Jackie Baillie later tweeted that she was just back. She wasn’t there at 7.30 and there was no one on the other side. Pictures taken. But Jackie has form doesn’t she?
I never saw anyone in Aberdeen and I had a look in a couple of waste paper buckets and no sign of discarded leaflets.
Ill be honest – I wasnt in favour of this approach.
A better approach may have been to combat their leaflets with some of our own.
If the NO camp pulled a stunt like this then Im sure there would be anger towards them from us. If I was canvassing for YES and I had NO supporters watching me & picturing me then I wouldnt feel comfortable being there
The other picture they showed floored me. It was someone etching YES onto the rear window of a car! Picture taken from inside the car! How guillable do they think we are?
you can but only imagine if the no camp was positive what their lead would be. i mean it was 75% no 25% yes at the start of the campaine.
The BT events page is now showing 66 events dated for today. My local station Pitlochry is not listed. No surprise since no one showed up anyway this morning.
So will wander south to Perth this afternoon to witness the crowds gathering for the BIG 5pm event.
Expecting people to hand out such a pamphlet of lies and distortion can only be described as “Feeding the grassroots with paraquat”
A worthwhile exercise.
If the MSM journalists won’t do their job, then it is down to ordinary members of the public to do it for them.
Obviously BT are not morning people. Will the afternoon and evening be any better?
@Richard.
I don’t think you’d miss Jackie Ballie in a crowd.
TheGreatBaldo says: Speaking of JoLa has she been spotted doing her bit or was the Subway not on BT’s list?
I think she had a few “wee things” to deal with this morning instead.
Ah, the romance of travel!
The lucky wee things.
I think this has been a very worthwhile exercise. What a contrast to my last Yes leafleting experience where 16 supporters turned up and we ran out of literature in 40 minutes.
Some spotters have posted pictures of Better Together leafleter on twitter, without blurring/obscuring the faces of said leafleter. I think next time far clearer instructions/rules should be made available, right at the top of the post, to make sure that spotters are on best behavior.
Maybe the YES campaign can show BT how it should be done.
Going by the jacket and bag, I am pretty sure the photo at Queens a Street is showing a YES campaigner?
I am on the train home from a fine night at Celtic Connections. Bought a Daily Hate to see what chums had been up to. Not a Cybernat in sight. Was about to demand a refund till I saw the Rev Stuart Smiley story and all was well with the world again. The BBC has banned artists from wearing Yes badges at televised performances. Some will now sport Proud Cybernat badges instead.
@Smith
Yes, I was leafletting at Waverley on the day the White Paper came out and there where so many of us I had to go up to North Bridge at the Tron as we were getting in each other’s way.
@joe kane says:
The thin red line – lonely, isolated Scottish Labour members distributing leaflets filled with lies, paid for by rich Tories, and supported and defended by the vile right-wing Daily Mail.
… and flying monkeys.
We’re definitely not in Kansas any more.
Who’s the Wizard.
Someone remind me, how many YES handouts or stalls were cancelled last year because of BT complaints or harassment?
By the looks of it though I don’t think BT has anything to fear on that score. Simply attracting a single passerby seems problematic.
And hear was me thinking that it was a BT contention
that one side alone could not hand out leaflets unless
the other side was there too…
Blair McDougal still cant help himself from making stuff up.
“Yesterday was a turning point in the referendum campaign. The Governor of the Bank of England’s message was perfectly clear: You can have independence or you can have the pound. You cannot have both.
link to politicshome.com
Help us out Blair. Is Germany a sovereign, independent nation or not? And what of Spain? Or France? They share a common currency & operate in principle within a common fiscal framework. But are they independent or not?
Well done everyone; it’s these wee things that make the difference of course.
On which subject Messrs Bateman and Munguin are worth a read this morning.
Well done everybody. I expect reports will be coming in all day (probably of a handful of senior citizens and a few MSPs being rushed to hospital suffering from hypothermia)
O/T
It takes a special sort of ingenuity coupled with a casual disregard for your own journalistic credibility to turn a good news story about an increase in student applications to Scottish universities (including an increase in applications from England and Wales) into a negative headline. This Andrew Denholm has managed on today’s Herald by headlining a slight drop in applications from Northern Ireland
@Toshtatic
“If the NO camp pulled a stunt like this then Im sure there would be anger towards them from us.”
Perhaps some people would be uncomfortable, but I think many on the Yes side would relish No campaigners coming up and engaging. And that’s the thing. They won’t.
They moan and complain and try to shut debate down – stringent invitation rules for events, quick-fire leafletting at 7am, no-showing markets etc. so the Yes side have to remove themselves too…
Having just moved back to Scotland I look forward to people coming up to me and talking to me about it. Hell, if I’m having a good hair day they can take a pic and do what they like with it!
“national newspaper calling them “sinister”, “rabid” “agitators”, “yobs” and “bullies” spewing “online poison” with the most important thing here being not to let a tiny few really trashy hacks/end of career politicos in London poison this debate and harm Scotland. Keep in mind the number of journalists and Westminster MP’s that are now either in court or prison.
Talking about lies, how low is it to lie about your ‘qualifications’, not-Reverend Stuart?
“Talking about lies, how low is it to lie about your ‘qualifications’, not-Reverend Stuart?”
That’s not a lie. I’m pretty sure I know what I am or am not, thanks.
On a more positive note, Yes Edinburgh are lovebombing a whole area of town tomorrow as the start of a series of Supersaturdays up to a grand finale in the City Centre in September.
The venue is Pilton/Drylaw/Muirhouse meeting at Drylaw Post Office. Full details on Facebook here
“Ill be honest – I wasnt in favour of this approach.”
Me neither – I don’t for a second think there was any malice intended, but actually it does seem a bit like intimidation, and provides the usual suspects in BT with ammunition.
Handing out Yes campaign material at the venues simultaneously with BT would have made the point.
“Handing out Yes campaign material at the venues simultaneously with BT would have made the point.”
We provided a leaflet so that people could do just that. But we’re not part of Yes Scotland.
Reminds me of the one where the guy goes into the Army Surplus store:
GUY: Have you got any camouflage jackets?
STOREKEEPER: Aye son, ah’ve got hunners. But ah canny find them.
I cannot speak for anyone else, but I went out this morning (I have health issues so this was no mean feat) in the hope of actually being able to discuss with someone of the ‘other side’ independence and the issues around it. While I can chat with as many yes supporting folk as I like, I’ve never actually spoke to a ‘Better Together’ activist. I was hoping to this morning.
No luck there, as there was no-one.
Now I find I’m being compared to some sort of predatory rapist. I’d never condone actual threats and intimidation. If someone had show up and if they were female, well first and foremost so what? Since my purpose was not to assault them in any way and they would have nothing to fear from me. Of course, if it’s dark and there is no-one else around it might be intimidating, but if BT are so worried about their female (nice bit of sexism there) activists safety, why send them out alone to be in dark stations (at commuter travel time –loads of people about) in the first place? Is not the point of events such as the leafleting to engage with the public? Well, I’m a member of the public before anything else!
All should be allowed to campaign as they see fit within the law. If I see a BT activist I will engage them, simply because I really want to find out what it is they think. That does not make me monster.
“I cannot speak for anyone else, but I went out this morning (I have health issues so this was no mean feat) in the hope of actually being able to discuss with someone of the ‘other side’ independence and the issues around it. While I can chat with as many yes supporting folk as I like, I’ve never actually spoke to a ‘Better Together’ activist. I was hoping to this morning.
No luck there, as there was no-one.”
Which station was that?
I’m going past Alexandra Parade later today, and I’d just like to reassure anyone leafleting there that I WON’T be photographing them or harassing them in any way. I just want to check that the advertised Public Event is actually taking place. That’s all.
O/t BBC at it again !
Brian’s Big Debate is on and they seem to have bused in a crowd of conservative Strathallan Economics Pupils with plenty to say against YES !
Dear oh dear, when you stop to think for even a minute of the political and independence campaigns that have gone before in other countries where activists get jailed, bombed, stabbed and shot, we get people here bleating about being watched, perfectly legally, by their opponents.
Jeez folks, grow up and be thankful you live in Scotland.
OT
Brian Taylor’s big debate. Rural Pertshire, lots of plummy posh English sounding students who seem to be pretty much against independence.
The squealing of Better Together unionists also rather flies in the face of the reasons for insisting Yes stalls be banned from fairs and galas during the summer because they can’t scare up anyone to match.
And Yes supporters weren’t even handing out opposing leaflets, just counting heads.
You can’t win with this crowd.
3 for YES apparently and 200 people in the audience.
“The BBC has banned artists from wearing Yes badges at televised performances. Some will now sport Proud Cybernat badges instead.”
That would be even better! Would love to see that.
Yeah, I agree Ray. As a Yes campaigner, what we want is engagement and to chat to people. I’m as happy to chat to a “definite no” as a “don’t know” (particularly because often you find they’re not as definite as they think) and enjoy the debate. The no side think since they’ve got the media sewn up they have nothing else to do – no engagement, no persuasion, no vision or offer to people in Scotland. As the vote gets closer, that’s going to become ever more untenable.
I’m also quite sad to see Ken MacIntosh in that picture. Not just because he’s on his own but because he’s handing out that leaflet. Being on the pro-union side and arguing it is one thing; sinking to the lies and levels Better Together and Labour are right now is quite another. I thought he was better than that, and there are very few Labour folk I can say that of these days. Oh well…
Brian Taylor just asked for a show of hands, and there are THREE Yes voters in the approx 200 audience.
Big Brian Busted! (It was bound to happen eventually…)
Is anyone witnessing the overwhelmingly biased debate going on on Radio Scotland just now?
Apparently an audience of around 200 with only 3 people voting yes in the audience.
It’s a full on Nat bashing excercise!
Disgracefull!
Toshtastic says:
I’ll be honest – I wasnt in favour of this approach.
I understand the sentiment. However, the fact remains that BT had pre-prepared this leaflet before the Carney speech and rather than shred it as inaccurate, they decided to distribute lies to the people in order to get rid of them.
That is simply wrong and if the MSM dont point that out then its right that the people should.
@DougDaniel
Precisely, fk them.
1.5% of Brian’s Roadshow audience are pro-Yes.
That’s representation for ye’s!
1.5% of Brian’s Roadshow audience are pro-Yes.
Clearly Jim Murphy’s hope of avoiding any Nats at all sneaking into the audience hasn’t quite worked then.
What do they teach them at Strathallan- how to be good unionists?
Depressing, really depressing.
I am still recovering from the young lady who condemned the SG for its land reform policies and here is me thinking that SNP policy is far too tame.
How the other half live right enough!
edulius,
It’s a private (public) school thing with a majority of Daily Mail readers!
A mere blip.
Ah, the good old Tories providing the intellectual material ( if you can call it that) and Labour, the faithful dog of the British establishment providing the donkey work.
I’m sure they are glad to see that some people know their place.
“We provided a leaflet so that people could do just that. But we’re not part of Yes Scotland”
A fair point, the tactic just seems a bit negative to me, and there is more than enough of that from the other side of the argument.
“A fair point, the tactic just seems a bit negative to me”
I don’t agree. We got people active and engaged, out in the fresh air, and you can see from the comments that many had civil and polite discussions with folk on the other side. And yet again we got to highlight some astonishing media/No camp hypocrisy. Job’s a good ‘un.
@ Cruachan
“Going by the jacket and bag, I am pretty sure the photo at Queens a Street is showing a YES campaigner?”
Nope. I took a leaflet from her as did big Terry (Japanese gardener). Then I said, “Goodbye.”
Cupar. Will likely have more luck later today in Edinburgh.
im pretty cynical regarding ken mackintosh, i think he seen on wings his local station was gonna be checked so decided on a pr exercise to make it look how dedicated he is.
TheGreatBaldo; “Speaking of JoLa has she been spotted doing her bit or was the Subway not on BT’s list ?”
…Subway? would that not be covered by Iain Gray?
In the interests of balance, Brian Taylor’s researchers will now have to find an audience which is 98.5% Yes, and then persuade some UKOKers to appear in front of it.
Good luck with that, Brian Taylor’s researchers.
I don’t think leafleting etc is a good idea for BT.It encourages people to think about the issues,which can only be harmful for the NO campaign.
See Radical Independence are now having a leafletting session at Queen Street as well tonight btw
Stu, Does the 11 @JHN include the 1 I took while engaging the very pleasant, if somewhat confused, old gentleman?
Strathallen – expensive rural Public School populated mostly by boarded offspring from Bankers, CEO’s, and incredibly wealthy individuals. Not really, I would imagine, fully representative of the demographic of Scottish Secondary Schools.
When asked how many of the 200+ present supported SNP or Independence, 3, yes 3 put their hands up! About 1.5% of those present.
Begs the question: Why did BBC decide to hold the debate there? Surely they would have been aware of the skewed demographic, (any BBC off-spring boarded there?).
Big Brian almost seemed embarrassed when this bias was pointed out by one of the panelists, Peter Wishart I believe, and has to make light of it when it became obvious.
Debate ended on pupil asked if they could expect SNP Scot Gov to not allow discussion to include people that disagreed with official policy.
BBC bias fully exposed in all it’s flagrant wonder.
Wonder how they are going to respond now that their pitiful “campaign” is exposed. Just like their politics, all smoke and mirrors, supplemented by outright lies. I think Blair will not get out his bed this morning, well he does need his beauty sleep!
When the BBC ask for your political views when you apply for things like Fat Brian’s Big Debate it’s hardly difficult to manipulate the make up of the audience.
I am not generally one for lying, but when you are confronted by that kind of issue where to tell the truth guarantees you won’t be heard at all, lie like a cheap watch. Apply as a Labour voter, a Tory (if you can stomach that) or a Lib Dem (see Tory) or as a completely impartial person, but do not tell them you are from ANY group which supports independence. They will filter you out to the point where your numbers are insignificant otherwise.
Brian Taylor, though, to be fair to him, does not pick the audience. That’s wee managerial drones in the background. I would well imagine whether or not he said anything at the time he will be less than impressed at the apparent one sided formation of the audience. His jowels must flop amazingly when he’s angry; I would almost pay good money to see it.
And on the point of the leafleting and our observation of their activists; pfft. Macdougall is a balloon. It is far from illegal to look at people, openly, and in public. And as someone else has said, be glad that you are not in a nation where political activists are routinely lifted by the police, banned by government edict, and frequently made to disappear completely. This is Scotland, where the biggest gripe of Better Together is ‘those nasty Yes voters are watching us.’
Be grateful for your freedoms and guard them jealously. Other nations are nowhere near so lucky.
o/T, World Health Organization Report.
Telling lies ( stunt,s ) brain development,
olso ( Stunt,s )growth in stature,whit hights LoLo, Kezia,
ah left oot Jackie ( she,s a big burd, nae brain, but ah big lier.
I,ve tain a bit of illitericy licence there ,If the DM can do it with supposed Litericy, then hey ho ho ho.
That said, I didn’t realise where it was coming from today.
Three supporters is probably entirely representative in that rarified environment.
Others have mentioned it, but if you missed Brian Taylor’s Big Debate from Strathallan School this lunchtime, you REALLY MUST check it out when it pops up on iPlayer. It was absolutely hilarious.
Fed up by the constant attacks from an audience of ghastly Fraser Nelson clones, an exasperated Pete Wishart finally breaks and demands to know if anyone in the room actually supports independence. Result: about 200 No voters and 3 Yes voters. Pete then spends the rest of the programme having a go at private schools, much to the annoyance of the young crowd. It really was Pete Wishart vs Strathallan School by the end. Fantastic radio.
Strathallan also runs the English curriculum like Fettes.
I had a genuinely civilized and pleasant chat with one of the No campaigners outside my local station. He was affable, amiable and sounded very knowledgable. I asked some polite questions, and gently challenged his replies. Nice to speak to someone with a diametrically opposite view… but…
Trident is a deterrent…
Uni fees are inevitable…
The banks… (won’t someone please think of the banks!)
The Scottish Gov have spent £800,000 on the White paper… (I asked, but apparently Westminster spending God knows what is a question to be deflected!)
Oh, and he was a bit undone when I mentioned that Ladbrokes had currency Union at 1/100…
In short, I enjoyed the blether, and he didn’t hand out a single leaflet for the entire 30 minutes I spoke to him.
Job done!
Strathallan and Glenalmond: minor public schools full of junior ranks’ military brats.
@Toshtastic: If the NO camp pulled a stunt like this then Im sure there would be anger towards them from us. If I was canvassing for YES and I had NO supporters watching me & picturing me then I wouldnt feel comfortable being there
Interesting: I’d feel the exact opposite. I tend to feel extremely nervous in public places in general (anxiety etc), but I feel if there were No people watching & taking photos, I’d be perfectly fine with it. Of course, that’s me, can’t account for others, and I respect your viewpoint: if I felt that way, I wouldn’t have gone either.
I would, however, have a problem if those photos turned up in the Daily Mail and accused me of harassing people in the street.
@DougDaniel 12.04, her,s wan Yes campainer that,s no complaining,that might be the Official line of YES HQ,
grassrooter,s are a law of their own, Genie,s n bottle,s Doug Genie,s let loose.
There isn’t a NO campaign.
There is an expensive, organised state campaign of mis/dis information, helped by a few useful fools and mercenary minded folk.
Brian how can you have a big debate if you won’t let one side into the debate?
The only thing big about Brian’s Big Debate is the lie that the BBC is unbiased.
Presumably the holier-than-thou folk on Twitter will be deriding RIC for this terrible bout of intimidation. Or not…
Wings has provided a catalyst to get folk on both sides out campaigning. Good work, I say!
Hey all, apologies for going OT but I have a small request!
Does anyone have, or know where I can find, the graphic that is an expanded version showing the rest of the UK tax vs expenditure that as an addition to the second picture in this blog link to wingsoverscotland.com that is often punted by BT…?
Cheers!
Well I can confirm the great rail metropolis of the north Insch Railway Station has had no BT leafleters, I know they were not on the list but I did think the BT’s would try a sneaky one.
So you can all sleep safely tonight knowing Insch was safe, and I look forward to seeing everyone at the YES Burns supper tonight at Elgin Town Hall.
Regarding the big debate if this is an example of the future leaders of our nation should we vote no heaven help us
Why should the plebs take the land from daddy?
Why should the rich be taxed more when there are so many getting benefits they don’t deserve?
Why should money be spent on the Commonwealth games?
after all they will have swimming pools and playing fields and not be dependent on public facilities
On and on it went, truly depressing
here,s wan, no her,s wan,am still the same man ah wiz yesterday, but mair confident after last night,s meeting
listening to,Jim Siller,s/Alex Neil/David Hayes/Pat Kane.
Winger,s are another thorn ( a big thorn ) in the side of BT,an were fekin pushin it in further.
I spent the morning in the local subway sandwich shop looking for Iain Grey (just in case).
If the 500,000 leaflet big push was really an attempt to get boots on the ground then Better Together have serious problems. All the Tory money in the world is not going to buy genuine old school Labour activist hearts.
Taylor’s ‘Big Debate’ sounds like another total fiasco for the utterly discredited BBC, coming hard on the heels of the blackout of the UWS report on bias and the hilarious introduction of Alex Massie as an ‘undecided’ in their debate in Greenock.
The sooner we can say ‘toodle-oo-the-noo’ to this mob of comically amateur propagandists the better.. I envisage Taylor, Glen Campbell and Gary Robertson rushing in unison Three Stooges-like for the door..
Re. BBC bias. Visiting my folks again, so had a chance to catch up on our state broadcaster last night.
Today in Parliament and This Week, both gave coverage of the indi debate, solely from a unionist perspective and with no right of reply from Yes. The language being used was also very informative. Scotland was being discussed as if it were a possession of England.
On a brighter note, I’ve chatted with four complete strangers in the last couple of days, and was pleasantly surprised to find they were all definite Yes, though short of facts. Directed them all to WOS.
Very successful day so far. A great political campaign stunt. The wet yeses,(wet Jessies?), bleating about it don’t have a clue. Let’s hope the pm turnouts are equally as bad for NO; although the NO boys will have had time to get more volunteers out.
Best day’s work in the campaign yet. It’s not just creaking anymore, you can actually hear the foundations rumble. It’s only a matter of time before Blair and Alistair abandon the Facebook page delete button and hit the streets foaming at the mouth and begin assaulting people with fistfuls of leaflets…
@Juteman
“There isn’t a NO campaign.
There is an expensive, organised state campaign of mis/dis information, helped by a few useful fools and mercenary minded folk.”
In a nutshell.
Mibye they hiv been takeing note of Jimsie,s,Seasick Dave,s
& my post,s of last week, re the ( Steath Gunboat ) fur the
Cybernautical,s Navy.
Check oot the Big Puddle,s, they might hiv stole oor idea
fur camaflage, n painted theirselve,s in WATTER COLOUR,S.
naebody throw them a lifebelt
@Ian Brotherhood
If theyre struggling then I’m sure 97% of us can make it along to a Big Brians Blether session one day!
PS
Anyone know what the official BT excuse for their luke warm big push is?
Wrong kind of rain?
🙂
I wonder if anyone has ever seen a job advertised in job centres at min wage for delivery of brochures etc???
I was looking at the photo of poor, cold, Ken McIntosh.
It came to me what he really must have been thinking.
” Oh frigg it’s cold, what the frigg I am doing here. Hmmmm,
oh frigg this, I am off for a cup of tea and a bacon roll!
This is the frigging last time”
Is there another 5min later photo? Thought not!
Good job, well done to everyone that took the time and made the effort to go NO spotting. Surprised that they managed 1 at Fort Matild and 1 at Gourock that means in Inverclyde they only missed Greenock West, Greenock Central, Cartsdyke, Bogston, Port Glasgow, Woodhall, Wemyss Bay, Inverkip , IBM, Branchton, Drumfrochar and Whinhill.
Mac Dougall,s missing ah trick on leafleting at train station,s,he should bring in the BIG GUNS,ie the SPANISH
CONNECTION, Michial Portillo,noo their,s a man thit know,s about train,s ,ayerite,but he does get invited to travel awe er, A mean onboard leafleting machine.
keep yer een oot in case they steal that suggestion, we know when it came fae WINGS.
Strathallan, now would that school be awarded charitable status, thereby allowing an 80% reduction in council tax?
Stu, did you get my email?
Brian’s Big Debate is no different from the usual debates that is going on at the moment. His audience was 99% pro-union and pro Tory by the sounds of them.
Then you had the big debate in the HoL yesterday were the percentage was 100% pro union, add to that the Scottish Affairs Committee debates which are also 100% pro-union.
BBC QT and BBC Scotland referendum debates are also tipping it’s balance towards pro-union audience, all to stifle the debate.
Then we have BBC Scotland News and MSM all 80%-100% pro-union.
No wonder we all had to take a small sherry at New Year.
And through all that adversity, we are coming out on top.
Liars, cheats and thieves will never overcome the true, honest debate that the YES campaign is having with the people of Scotland.
It’s not trolling, it is Mystery Shopping. I might actually find a NO campaigner who can answer some of my questions without pointing me to biased reporting on the internet and by MSM. That’s what I’ve been looking for since I began my research. BT have announced where their campaigners will be and I’m going to find them. I’m looking for someone who can give me a positive reason for NO. I’m willing to change my mind – but don’t hold your breath.
O/T
Here is a wee glimmer of hope.
One of my nephews graduated a couple of years ago with a degree in Economics… He’d been well and truly indocrinated to a NO vote. I have been working hard on him. It has been a tough argument.
Here is an extract from an email he sent me today… He is coming down from Dundee for a visit.
“….I am more aligned with the YES vote now, mainly due to the fear mongering and butchering of the truth coming from the opposition. I would still like some assurances with reagrd to leadership post independence, but there’s still time for that…”
On BBC Bias
Having asked the Parliamentary Education & Culture committee to haul BBC executives in front of it to answer for their actions following the UWS Study, I’ve just got this reply from the Chairman, Stewart Maxwell MSP:
“This week the Education and Culture Committee agreed additions to its work programme for the coming months. The Committee has decided to examine a number of areas on Scotland’s constitutional future, including an inquiry on the issue of broadcasting and culture.
“Senior BBC Scotland executives will be asked to come before the Committee to answer questions on the BBC’s preparations for its coverage of the independence referendum. It has been agreed that part of the Committee’s evidence gathering session on broadcasting will examine the findings of Dr Robertson’s study: “Fairness in the First Year? BBC and ITV Coverage of the Scottish Referendum Campaign from September 2012 to September 2013”.
“The Committee plans to look at the issue in more detail during its evidence sessions in March and April. Further information and updates on the Committee’s work can be found on its webpage:”
link to scottish.parliament.uk
There seems to a bit of a rammy going on about Brian Taylor’s Big Debate from Strathallan.
Anybody know what happened?
Taranaich
“I would, however, have a problem if those photos turned up in the Daily Mail and accused me of harassing people in the street.”
I appreciate that, and I think thats the big problem lately. About 6 months ago I came to this site looking for information. If voting today then I would vote YES – thanks in part to this site.
Lately though I feel that this site is more about petty attacks and is losing sight of what its power is.
The Daily Mail campaign increased traffic on this site (as well as pressure/stress on the Rev), but Ill be surprised if the majority of them dont think its just a mad ‘cybernat’ site.
Those are voters that could have been convinced to keep looking for themselves.
I know if I came to it now then I am not sure if I would have stuck with it
The No camp really are all over the place now. Following the Airdrie meeting last night, which by all account was very successful, where Jim Sillars was given a standing ovation, the Better Together Facebook page is now using his Daily Record piece about not wanting a currency union as a post!
But hey, it bashes Alex Salmond so it must be OK to post to our site, right? They don’t appear to have a clue what’s going on here, or that currency is a debate for a post independent Scotland with the powers to decide.
We can use the pound if we want to, regardless of whether there’s a currency union, and have other options if the UK would make it too difficult. When those in the no camp find they’re on the same page as Jim Sillars, they surely must realise they have one confused argument!
O/T
Came across this site by accident. It sells Scottish land so you become a Scottish Lord or Lady.
I don’t know if the site is a wind-up or not. Has anyone heard of such deals going on.
link to highlandtitles.com
@ Gillie
The audience at Strathallan school comprised 200 pupils, of which only 3 were for Yes, so they had a real go at Independence.
Roddy Macdonald says:On BBC Bias
That is good news. I wonder what evidence the BBC execs will bring with them to debunk Dr Robertson’s study. It better be good.
Toshtastic: The No side have long been using a compliant media to (apparently falsely) give the impression that there is an equal swell of support on the ground for them. It’s just another of the fibs that needs to be exposed, and if Stu has enough enthusiastic readers to make this possible, in a quite open and polite manner, then what’s the problem?
At least we’re not standing on street corners handing out utter lies, which is worse!?
The audience at Strathallan school comprised 200 pupils, of which only 3 were for Yes
Surely this must also raise questions about the kind of brain washing going on within that school, and possibly others?
RoughMan says: The audience at Strathallan school comprised 200 pupils, of which only 3 were for Yes, so they had a real go at Independence.
…… but the BBC have a duty to provide balance. How come only 3 YES voters were selected out of 200????????????
I like to see the BBC execs explain that to Holyrood’s Education and Culture Committee.
Were they all pupils at the Strathallan debate, because I thought these debates were open to the public?
During my observations of the Better Together / Project Fear leaflet push, I noticed that people seemed to be much less keen to take their leaflets than the last BT/PF leaflet drive I witnessed on BBC news (filmed during last year’s indy rally). Back in September the uptake from the public (as witnessed on film) was a pretty impressive (indeed, astonishing) 100% uptake. The guy outside Queens St. Station today was lucky if he could pass 1 in 100.
Not at all sure why the willingness to accept BT/PF literature has plummeted so drastically today?
Hmmm….
@Gillie.
I’d like them to question whether or not Strathallan is really an organisation contributing to the public good.
Here’s a question for you all to give some serious thought.
Can our rag tag band of ordinary Scots stand up to the British Government and the entire media and win our country’s independence?
Think about the answer.Doesnt it make you feel good?
Two poor folk at Ayr Station this morning (Friday)
@Cath 2.18 I was at the same meeting last night,jim Siller,s did make a point for Scotlandto have its own pound
& he did explain the Money Market,s attitude to Scotlan
( ie Saudia, China,far East investment ) I have not alway,s agree,d with Jim but being Radical in this campain
is justifyed,& whatever political persuesion people come from,If their for Scottish Independence,I for one will support them,all the want,s can be discusse,after we have Independence. Rome,Day, takes time to build anything never mind a Country.
Gillie, the audience was comprised of pupils of Strathallen, a public school for Miltary families, bankers broods and wealthy individuals.
They didn’t need to vet the audience, if you can’t afford the school fees you cannot get in.
BBC do not tell you this, they advertised it as a school near Perth. Much like they never tell you what political persuasion any of their guests or commentators hold unless you are George, economist and former SNP candidate, which the introduction always given.
Why did the BBC take the debate to this venue?
Is there a station near Strathallan where the BBC can film a 98.5% uptake of BT’s leaflets? Seems an opportunity too good to miss.
Sos Cath,my post at 2.40, brain no engadged with finger,s
Time out,catch up later.
re Strathallan/Taylor stushie.
98.5% pro-union (or DKs?!)
Even BT public meetings have nowhere near that majority e.g. the North Ayrshire BT launch was, at max, 65% BT ‘supporters’ (Aidan Paisley, if you’re reading, is that a fair estimate?.)
So, put yourself in Brian Taylor’s producer’s shoes – how would you even begin to start looking for an audience so imbalanced? Cock-up or conspiracy, no matter – s/he should be out on her/his ear.
Taylor is probably BBC Scotland’s most senior political analyst. He was made to appear foolish, amateurish, and shifty – he’s probably spending the afternoon kicking arses up and down Pacific Quay corridors. Who can blame him?
kalmar : but thats my point. These enthusiastic readers can be put to better use.
Instead of watching, counting & reporting BT leaflet pushers, why not use that resource to combat it? Pull together a counter leaflet and get out there the next day/week with it.
Thats the only way to get people to hear all the intelligent things the Rev & others say
Today just makes us look like crazy nationalists – we’re better than that. Lets not play on their level, make them come to ours.
The number of leaflets handed out doesnt matter.
The BT guy at my station said : ‘Better Together leaflet to KEEP the £’
Regardless of how many people take a leaflet from him, they will hear him, and most people are too lazy to look for information to find out the truth.
I was cruising looking for Zany relief when I came across this gem from arch anti cybernat Terry Kelly…on his own website…emphasis is mine. A Labour coonciller indeed. Where is the DailyWail when you need it.
“It was the snp who forced the election which brought Thatcher to power. In the ensuing election the 11 snp MP’S were reduced to 2 by the Scottish people who showed the snp what they thought of their treachery. You are a bunch of Quislings and would sell your grannies for your own benefit.
The Big Debate was a sham (again).
I used to live only a few 100 yards from Strathallan School and couldna believe they chose a school audience from THAT school. Fees are in the region of £9000 per term (£27000 per year). Music etc lessons are an extra £600 per year and extra tuition/learning support is £40+ per hour. Talking utter shite on the radio is free for them apparently.
Reading this thread and ‘the honest patrol’ has been great. What a brilliant effort exposing the No to Scotland’s exaggerations and lies.
It will be great if people can carry this kind of political motivation, whatever party they vote for, into an independent Scotland.
I keep picturing Flipper dressed as Lord Percy in Blackadder saying “oh you heartless gloaters, come for a gloat have you”
Can we utilise our mighty networking skills to track down any of the three brave souls who identified themselves as Yes supporters in the Taylor Roadshow ‘debate’?
Toshtastic says:
Instead of watching, counting & reporting BT leaflet pushers, why not use that resource to combat it? Pull together a counter leaflet and get out there the next day/week with it.
Great idea. I’m sure if you set the ball rolling and start getting that leaflet done you’ll get loads of volunteers offering to help you.
@Lanarkist says:
Why did the BBC take the debate to this venue?
I hope Dr John Robertson from UWS is still keeping is BBC-bias score running today.
This week has been a Biased Broadcasting Corporation/Better Together slow-motion train-wreck from start to finish.
e.g. BBC gets the evidence of bias put forward in a University report and then holds Brain’s Debate at Strathallan (‘cos Jim Murphy has been pushing for “no audiences with real punters any more please”). You couldn’t make it up.
Nobody is co-ordinating their hapless campaign.
Strathallan School is also a registered charity!!
Big Brian of the BBC tries to come across as big friendly Uncle Buck.
He knows exactly what he is doing, he tries to come across as though he is a neutral presenter, yet we all know he is as pro-union as Campbell, Frazer and Bird.
And after bootin the shit out of you for an hour, he tries to slip in some crap joke about Dundee United.
Stop treatin us like mugs Brian.
His initials aren’t BT for nothing.
@gillie
but the BBC have a duty to provide balance. How come only 3 YES voters were selected out of 200???
Ah….because if they’d provided balance, they’d only have had an audience of 6! I think I heard Brian Taylor say that the school had “invited” them to hold the debate and presumably that meant they could throw their own rules out of the window.
Rev, on that basis, could we not “invite” Brian and his team to a Wings debate and we’ll try and drum up 3 unionists for them to go with the 197 Wingers that will show up? Just in the interests of balance, like.
O/T Apologies.
Some interesting (and free) academic papers on the indy debate from Edinburgh University Pree:
link to euppublishing.com
@Ian Brotherhood Justice for the Strathallan Three!
3 YES OUT OF 200
Last week Brians big (chin) Debate was in borders (Dumfries I think) Brian asked for a show of hands at the end First YES then No ….. instead of telling listeners the result over the airwaves we heard Brian say “Oh My!” I translated that into an overwhelming win for YES.
i agree with caz-m, taylor has become irritating.
Rev. Stu
did you see latest attack on Cybernats in todays Herald by Allison Rowat. apparently we are Cyber Loons. totally one sided error strewn article.
“did you see latest attack on Cybernats in todays Herald by Allison Rowat. apparently we are Cyber Loons. totally one sided error strewn article.”
Aye, ’twas rubbish.
Dick Gaughan Says : Great idea. I’m sure if you set the ball rolling and start getting that leaflet done you’ll get loads of volunteers offering to help you.
ha – my leaflet would look like something a child brings home from their first day at primary school
I would certainly be up for being part of it though, as would a few people I work with.
For what its worth, I did a quick shooftie of Wishaw train station around 1.30pm. No sign of BT and none of their leaflets were in the station bins or the bins outside the station leading up to the Main St.
The next Big Debate is from one of Bernard Matthew’s turkey farms where the question is for or against Xmas. Those BBC fu$%ckers we’re over here we can fuc$%kin see you..dobbers
“The next Big Debate is from one of Bernard Matthew’s turkey farms where the question is for or against Xmas.”
Totally stealing that 😀
No doubt a lot of people in the media (‘newspapers’ and radio) think they are publishing a balanced view.
Sad thing is we know that they are not!
Democracy should be about the media providing honest information (good or bad) to help the electorate make up their mind, NOT the blatant lies that they are presently pumping out.
Unfortunately what is being published/broadcast at present by the Hootsman, Daily Rag and BBC is no better that Stalin’s Russia!
Don’t these people realise that they are going to have to live in an independent Scotland and their credibility is going to be ZERO???
Ha ha
@Toshtastic.
Today has helped to show that there isn’t a NO campaign, no matter how hard the media tries to pretend that there is one.
It’s human nature to want to be part of the mainstream, and the YES campaign IS the party of the people. It is important that the NO campaign is exposed as the fraud that it is, and is made up of only a few councillors and party faithful.
BTW, I asked a couple of the staff at Aberdeen station (I couldn’t make it!) and they said they saw nobody leafleting either inside nor outside the station and added that if there were any leaflets being handed out to do with any politics in the station they’d be moved on by staff.
@Arabs for Independence – Holeeeeee Fuck! just read your post about fees 27 grand a fucking year..Why on God’s clean earth would you hold a debate there.FFS
OT
I’ve just done an online complaint re BBC journalistic standards. Cant wait to see what half assed response I get.
I thought that using, “pre-pre-pared,” meant you were forced to spend the afternoon with blair mcliar?
@Toshtastic. I’m sure the Rev will be putting up a sensible post that includes this as part of the evidence 🙂
@Croompenstein
To win.
Allison Rowatt has an attack on Cybernats in todays Herald. Apparently we are now Cyberloons. Article is totally one sided and inaccurate. I know this as I read Wings over Scotland. We need to get more people reading this site and Newsnetscotland.
Btw I think it’s common for private schools to be registered charities? Eton is a registered charity (one of the largest 100 in the UK).
They can use charitable status to get tax breaks.
‘Charity’ status needs a bit of a re-think!
Why did the BBC take the debate to this venue?
On the plus side, they’re beginning to look as if they’re increasingly on the retreat. When you’re pushed back to holding debates in places like that, and Daily Mail support for a campaign in Scotland, you can pretty much reckon that means they’re losing control.
“Apparently we are now Cyberloons”
Oi! I’m a cyberquine…
@Croompenstein
“Holeeeeee Fuck! just read your post about fees 27 grand a fucking year..Why on God’s clean earth would you hold a debate there.FFS”
A good question but one which the BBC will never answer. Actually it probably backfired because once Pete Wishart exposed the audience as a bunch of toff’s bairns who were all on same side of the divide – it ceased to be a debate. But as you say FFS why there?
Anyone seen this?
link to ft.com
and to think everyone is forced to fund this bbc.
O/T
A jolly wee tune from Ninjapenguin to keep all the cybernats cheery:
Well, just home from leafletting round the doors in my east central belt town. I was a little unsure about this WoS operation but I am now inclined to think it’s been a great success. It shows how low the BT numbers are and how badly run the campaign is. That’s heartening. We had four Yes activists out this morning here delivering leaflets in one of our housing estates, it was cold and miserable but we have a great cause. We’ve campaigned relentlessly here for nearly two years. We have seen nothing of the other side. They are not organised and they have no activists.
I just want to thank everyone who gave up their time on this cold and damp morning and to congratulate Rev Stu for organising this.
To those complaining about this tactic I would say think about what you are saying. This has been a terrible week or so for BT. University of WoS report on BBC bias, Bank of England not playing their game, Labour Mps and MSPs going greetin` to the Daily Mail of all places, Lamont, Lang and Liddle making complete arses of themselves and now the “Goodbye” leaflet exposed as a lie. The pressure is on BT and building all the time. Now is the time to exert even more pressure let us all contribute to scunnering (in a nice way) their leaders and activists. Hopefully some will learn a lesson or even better and give it up altogether.
Juteman says:
31 January, 2014 at 3:04 pm
“Today has helped to show that there isn’t a NO campaign”
Unfortunately there is, it consists of Westminster and the MSM anything else is incidental.
Finlay
and to think everyone is forced to fund this bbc
Erm…naw!
Is there now broad agreement that we have ‘adopted’ the term ‘Cybernat’ and are proud to use it?
If so, we need to identify our opponents using a similar term, and I propose Cyberfud (where ‘fud’ is an acronymous suffix referring to ‘fear, uncertainty and doubt’).
Has a certain ring to it, dontcha think?
‘Blair McDougall, chief Cyberfud, said…’
@ murray,
Aye, Jim Sillars was saying last night that charitable status allows them an 80% reduction in their council tax. No such breaks for LEA schools though.
Needs looking into urgently, I feel an e mail coming on to my MSP.
@ Caath,
Aye, and I’m sure there are some cyberkeelies about too…
“Justice for the Strathallan Three!”
Brilliant!
Perhaps one of them can be invited to comment on the debate and how they managed to evade BBC vetting of the audience.
@PRJ.
As I said in my earlier post.
In the interests of balance, maybe the next venue for Brian Taylor’s Big Debate could be staged at a foodbank which, like our private schools, also have charitable status.
juteman & the man in the jar
I appreciate your point, but I dont believe we are ‘exposing’ anything. The readers of these sites know the utter lies that come from the NO camp.
We are at an equilibrium just now where WE know they are talking bollocks, and they know they will get called on it – but that detail doesnt leave this circle
People on the street have no idea about the bollocks because they are too lazy & too stupid
@Rev@3.20 “The next Big Debate is from one of Bernard Matthew’s turkey farms where the question is for or against Xmas.” Totally stealing that – No probs Rev to us Wingers it’s like a badge of honour when you quote one of our posts 🙂
Suppose the Big Debate had to do something to redress the bias after last weeks show of hands at the end of the debate was met by Brian with an “oh goodness me” but a result which clearly could not be broadcast.
I think the first question on Brian’s Big Debate today started along the lines of “in Alex Salmond’s independent Scotland……..” and that was the tone for the rest of what I heard.
Pete Wishart seemed to struggle a bit, twice I heard it asked where would Scotland get the revenues to fund services and I didn’t hear an answer. I did only listen to the first half right enough. That’s got to be about the most important question anyone can ask and it’s easy enough to answer.
@Toshtastic
Come on now, they aren’t stupid.
What are you a no troll?
Lazy, undoubtedly, but politics is boring to the other half of the country, probably more, but people vote regardless.
Its especially pointless when such a democratic deficit has been in effect for so long AND and have to contend with an unfair, antiquated political system in place (Westminster)
@Toshtastic
“People on the street have no idea about the bollocks because they are too lazy & too stupid.”
There’s a mighty big difference between someone who is genuinely stupid and someone who is merely ignorant. Ignorance can be dealt with, stupidity generally can’t.
chalks & creigs1707repeal
fair point – ‘stupid’ was maybe a bit harsh, ignorant is a better choice of word.
I agree that politics is boring, I have had no interest in politics until now – but this is different. Its important and ignorant voters should be banned 🙂
Not sure how Im a ‘troll’ – assuming that was just a joke as Ive said nothing that is PRO-NO
@Joe Kane –
‘In the interests of balance, maybe the next venue for Brian Taylor’s Big Debate could be staged at a foodbank.’
A splendid suggestion. And we really should get Danny Alexander to open the discussion.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
@kininvie
Fab – sums up the whole ridiculous thing! 🙂
Tosh,
If NOBODY ELSE is exposing both the rubbish and lies in their literature, and their overinflation of the strength of their campaign, then we (Wings Over Scotland) quite simply have to.
We’ll do our own campaigning/leafletting/debating as well, but this is important work. Some of the No people have never been as politically scrutinised in their lives/careers as they are right now. Readers are coming to this site in far greater numbers and are learning for the first time, the dearth of BT’s arguments.
We have to keep it up – if we show that they are wrong on small verifiable details like the strength of their own organisation, we can make people doubt anything they say, and they’ll take greater care over the bollocks they print in their leaflets.
Surely Strathallan would feel normal for “Brian the Braces” as he is a product of a fee-paying school (High School of Dundee)himself.
Basically their mass leafliting exercise has gone down like Neil Lennon giving the immortal memory at Kilwinning Lodge’s Burns supper. Keep it up BT run back tae mammy(MSM,Wasteminster) and greet aboot thae bad cabernats
“The next Big Debate is from one of Bernard Matthew’s turkey farms where the question is for or against Xmas.”
I’d be careful how you use this one, Rev. It was used by Jim Callaghan in 1979 against the SNP.
“We can truly say that once the Leader of the Opposition discovered what the Liberals and the SNP would do, she found the courage of their convictions. So, tonight, the Conservative Party, which wants the Act repealed and opposes even devolution, will march through the Lobby with the SNP, which wants independence for Scotland, and with the Liberals, who want to keep the Act. What a massive display of unsullied principle! The minority parties have walked into a trap. If they win, there will be a general election. I am told that the current joke going around the House is that it is the first time in recorded history that turkeys have been known to vote for an early Christmas.”
– James Callaghan during the No confidence debate
Soon as I found out Brian’s debate was from Strathallen I knew the game was a bogie, I used to go there you see and I hated it. I still remember all those lads and lasses looking doon there noses at me and the teachers weren’t much better, you could practically smell the sense of entitlement in the air.I was quite happy delivering the post in the rest of the village and I always got a lovely breakfast at one of the farms so it wasn’t all bad.
Ian
I am absolutely content to be called a CyberGnat. In fact I wear the appellation with pride.
That said I have so little regard for the opinion of the FUDMongers that being called a Quisling by Kelly only served to let me know what being savaged by a dead sheep is like…utterly painless.
Aah, Strathallan – that microcosm of Scottish society!
Where next, Gordonstoun?
@Jamie Arriere – Ibrox
Having gone to a fee-paying school doesn’t automatically make you a bad person….
I hope….
I’ll get me coat….
Jamie Arriere :
I never said we have to stop, we do need to keep exposing the lies and adding pressure.
I just :
A) think that was approached better a few months ago
B) think there was a better way to go about it today
Also, the NO camp are not going to stop printing chuff – lets be realistic here. Im sick of hearing the same arguments about the EU & £ that I heard 6 months ago. It still gets printed, and the ‘ignorant’ public still believe it.
I think thats where we need to concentrate : educate the ignorant
Is this one of theirs or ours? Cough!
link to archive.is
Sorry folks, can I get 5 year old to help me put the right link in. Doh!
I thinks it one of theirs!
@Clydebuilt
Re: Brian’s Big Debate Strathallan School.
3 YES – 200 NO.
And I think the three YES were –
Pete Wishart
Ruth Wishart
And a Teacher.
On this transfer deadline day, North Korean television has just announced that Kim Jong Un is minded to make a move for the producer of Brian Taylor’s Big Debate if personal terms can be agreed.
Jim White will keep us posted as this one might go to the wire.
@Training Day says:
On this transfer deadline day, North Korean television has just announced that Kim Jong Un is minded to make a move for the producer of Brian Taylor’s Big Debate if personal terms can be agreed.
Kim Jong can have the producer on a free transfer on 19th September …
If I posted on Wings from a station car park, would that count as campaigning on Railway property?
Strathallan:
‘For so long as three of us remain alive…..’
anyone wishing to compliment BBC Scotland on their travesty of a debate today with 200 of our public school betters baying their ignorant absurdly privileged unreal indoctrinaire prejudices ( private landowners manage everything so much better than beastly would be Scottish Government land reformers, apparently, and that was one of the least hysterically snobbish contributions from the assembled toadies) can do so at their twitter account,
@bbcbigdebate,
but do remember to doff your caps,and tug your forelocks,
you frightful little peasants , do try to be as impartial as is Mr Brian Taylor and his ruling class BBC pals
4 at Arbroath station, not indoors but how long will they last in the rain?
Heard the whole thing, but the BBC were invited to hold the event there, so it lets them off the bias hook. Aye right!
Mr Wishart was a bit abrasive towards the poor wee darlings, might not chime well with the general listeners. Mind you I was taking my wrath out on a brick wall wraggling in a steel conduit for a new socket during it all, still counting to ten.
Strathallan’s Lament (or “A Yes voter under a Unionist deluge”) – Robert Burns
Thickest night, o’erhang my dwelling!
Howling tempests, o’er me rave!
Turbid torrents, wintry swelling,
Roaring by my lonely cave!
Crystal streamlets gently flowing,
Busy haunts of base mankind,
Western breezes softly blowing,
Suit not my distracted mind.
In the cause of Right engaged,
Wrongs injurious to redress,
Honour’s war we strongly waged,
But the Heavens denied success.
Ruin’s wheel has driven o’er us,
Not a hope that dare attend,
The wide world is all before us-
But a world without a friend.
@Tosh
No worries, was just on the wind up…..seeing as how the no campaign believe the people are too stupid…..we defo shouldn’t go down that road.
Ignorance is bliss, sometimes I wish I didn’t know about all the shit that has gone on and go on living…lol
would strathallan school be a place for young lords in waiting?
Ended up running late so couldn’t check all entrances at Central. but on the Gordon St one there were two Bitters and two folk handing out yes papers. Didn’t have time to engage either sadly
Haymarket. Got there at 5 to 4, bloody freezing it was. One BT on either side of the entrance. Waited 20 minutes before my bladder, the wind, and the risk of a parking ticket forced me back.
The leafleter closest to me (about the same age as me i.e long past his prime) didn’t seem to be having any great success – a few takers but crammed them into their pockets as they rushed by. But I didn’t try to engage him in discussion – too damned windy and cold with the odd threat of snow.
Conclusion, nothing much and certainly no excitement, but then it was West Edinburgh in the middle of winter. Next time can we get BT to pick a better day? Be kinder on their troops – as well as us observers!
@Toshtastic and others
Have you not seen or read the stuff that BT are doing to mislead, misinform and lie to, not only the people of Scotland, but everyone in the present-UK? There is no point in being all nicey, nicey if you are confronting this kind of propaganda machine.
Right now we are at war, not a ‘hot’ war, but a war of information attrition. BT have the heavy artillery of substantial cash deposits from Tory benefactors. They also have the MSM providing the support and vocal backing. They may also have MI5, MI6 and GCHQ ‘assisting’ in the background, although, for now, that can only be guessed at.
But for all that, what you are now seeing and hearing from BT is typical behaviour from a bully who has had their own way for so long – using Scotland for its resources without bothering about its people, buying up our land to come up once-a-year to shoot deer, lumbering us with Trident, etc…fucking us over, basically – with a right-wing MSM to compliantly push ‘the message’, that now they are being found out, thanks to the internet, by the ‘ordinary’ folk who will be voting in the referendum, they are using all their ‘sources’ to squeal, scream and cry foul, it’s not fair, it’s not right, etc.
Threats and attempts at intimidation (see the Daily Mail almost every day) are emblematic of the bully who has found out that he/she is not scaring and cowing people anymore, and is, indeed, being scorned and laughed at. BT has nothing positive, nothing. We know that. They know that. All they have is smear, sneer and fear – pure negativity.
Do remember that Wings and most other pro-independence sites are not part of the official Yes Scotland campaign, so are not beholden to representing Yes Scotland at any time. Obviously, Yes Scotland, Wings, other pro-independence sites and the many grassroots organisations are all working toward the same goal – independence from Scotland following the referendum vote in September – a just and good cause.
Do you think come independence Strathallan will still remain a little bit of England in Scotland?
This Strathallen thing is perfectly fair. It’s just the BBC balancing their coverage after the 197-3 pro indy audience last time in Dumfries. It’s not Brian’s fault that he ran out of time and couldn’t announce the result of the show of hands.
Dal Riata
I think you are misunderstanding my point. Im saying there are other ways to combat the media & BT. I clearly said BT talk mince and lie.
You dont have to be nicey nicey, but giving cheap ammunition to the NO’s wont help
One at Kirkcaldy up side no one on the down side at 1600. Went the messages at Aldi, still no one down side and the one on the up had upped and gone 1630. Pity about the sleet 🙂 tho it had stopped by the time I came back.
Stupid time to leaflet Kdy 1600, there’s no real traffic till the shoppers get back at 1730 and then you get the commuters to 1830 and then it all goes quiet again. BT don’t know what they are doing and they don’t have the boots on the ground to find out.
Just a thought about Strathallan School – in an audience of 200, 197 think the same thing and only 3 think differently. As a former teacher, I’d be a bit worried if so many of my pupils were all thinking the same thing – it might mean they weren’t in fact thinking at all. Actually, statistically speaking, you might expect up to ten of them to support independence based on chance alone. Three seems a bit low – maybe they had a few shy Yessers in the audience.
@4.54 pm
Oops! That should be “independence for Scotland” in that final sentence, not “from”…! Dearie me!
Well it’s Showtime at Prestonpans Station.
The BT Event has got off to a bit of a flat start … it’s just me and the bloke in the photo:
link to imgur.com
I thought it was Ian Gray for a minute, but then I remembered that he does the Subway, not the Railway.
I think we have a BT NO-show here …
@Toshtastic
I think you are misunderstanding my point. Im saying there are other ways to combat the media & BT. I clearly said BT talk mince and lie.
You dont have to be nicey nicey, but giving cheap ammunition to the NO’s wont help
I’m not having a go at you here, but pray tell:
What “other ways” do you suggest?
What “cheap ammunition” has been given to the ‘No’s?
Toshtastic says:
I think you are misunderstanding my point. Im saying there are other ways to combat the media & BT.
We are all individuals and are all campaigning in whatever ways we think might have an effect. If you think you have better ways, then merely telling us where we’re all going wrong won’t cut much ice – lead by example and show us what we should be doing. As we used to say in Leith, “Don’t tell me – show me.”
No one at the Calton Rd entrance to Waverley at 07.50 and 15.55 or at Inverkeithing at 16.20.
At 4pm there were 6 people handing out the other lots leaflets outside Waverley station. I was unable to grab a leaflet as I was in work capacity when passing. They were handing a lot out but City of Edinburgh Council will have a lot of bins to empty tonight/tomorrow.
Just had a wee look along from Cybernat Towers. There are 2 BT activists (or people being paid) to leaflet Musselburgh station, one on each side. This is the busiest time too so they’ve got one thing right today at least. I’m a wee bit disappointed the Honest Toun isn’t a liar-free zone.
Nobody at Inverkeithing, I did a couple of laps, was there for 20 minutes from 16:10. I can’t check again unfortunately.
the east wind brings snow from the Urals, comrade…
Johnstone 1630 Hrs. Two women on city bound side 1 man on coast bound Two trains come and go maybe 15-20 leaflets given out. therefor approx 30-40 per hour. I fear they will be a trifle short of their 5000 target. Came home now cooking meatballs and spaghetti. Mission complete. Signing off Silver fox to red leader.
Here’s Barrhead at 17.15:
link to i1168.photobucket.com
link to i1168.photobucket.com
Clearly out in force 😉 Away down for another pic at 17.45.
Disappointing! No show at Fort Matilda either. Stayed for half an hour (4.15-4.45) then headed home.
Another train come and gone at Prestonpans.
Still nobody here from BT.
Just one more train due, just before 6pm when the “Event” is schedule to end, but it’s not worth waiting.
I’m off homw now.
Zero BT leaflets handed out here …
Leuchars at half past five – absolutely chucking it down, and not a soul, or leaflet in sight!
Wandered down to Queen Street station Glasgow. Never mind the six or so Yes activists there. Two hardy souls were giving out leaflets for the Glasgow Club Health and fitness. Was either one or two of the Better Together mob. One of the Yes guys said they had out numbered McDougall’s foot soldiers for most of the day. This was just before 530pm.
Strathallan Army pupils – are Scottish taxpayers paying their fees?
No-one at Lithgae station this pm. but lots of crumpled up and discarded leaflets lying about in the station and many more in the station bins. So a No-show from the No campaign at Linlithgow for this afternoon’s ‘event’ but seem to have been there in the morning.
@Annibale
Surely it was still called Dundee High School when Brian went there.
Anyone else think the name change was to put as much distance between them and ‘Dundee’ as possible?
No Union Jocks/Brit Nats distributing anything that I could see at Bathgate Train Station between 4pm to approx 4.40pm.
I did however chat with a nice chap with a big blue ‘Yes’ umbrella who was going to be staying on the lookout until 6pm.
NO SHOW from better together at Dingwall tonight. I have a photo of how desolate it looked.
Jeannie – you can be sure that there will have been more than three in a secret ballot. Not too many more, perhaps, but more than three. Raising your hand for Yes in that audience would have taken great moral courage.
Schools like Strathallan are for training good young Brits – not quite the elite as such, but there to prop up the establishment. Scotland does not enjoy their loyalty.
A friend was at Leuchars from 4.25 till 4.50, checked both the platform and the street entrance. not a sign of any leafleters, “not a sausage” they said but the weather was filthy and Leuchars is pretty blasted at the best of times!
They sent me a photo, not sure how to insert it here though!
Better Together are trying to plow a furrow, to sow their
seed,but the Clydedale,s pull plow,s, no push them ,
nae wonder they canny get a crop,their better stickin tae growin weed,s nae plowin required.
I alerted friends in Bridge of Allan who went along to the station at 08.30 to find nobody there.
They did, however, find two of their leaflets in the Metro stand and a few others binned.
There were however, reported earlier sightings of No, but not actually confirmed.
OT, but can some techie tell me how I put up a nice wee ‘cyberbug’ logo on my thingy on the side?
Fair play to the two guys leafleting at the top of Waverley steps! That icy wind itself is challenge!
Photo of Leuchars this evening
link to i59.tinypic.com
I popped down to Brunstane Train station this morning.
I stood outside the station with the WOS pdf leaflet (I only had as much as the paper stock in the house permitted me to print) and wish I had more.
I stood outside the station along side a BT leafleter,with myself handing out the WOS pdf leaflets and the guy scratching his head a bit regarding the similarity and the speed of print.
Between waiting for the trains,we had a decent, polite discussion, obviously coming from different ends of the spectrum, but courteous and inquisitive all the same re each of our takes on what’s best for the people of Scotland. (Obviously we didn’t agree on very much)
I was especially intrigued as he was a Labour voter/member ( I used to be a Labour voter) how he felt being sponsored/associated by the Tories re better together his take on the bed-tax,welfare reforms,millionaire’s tax cuts,Johan Lamont etc.
His views made had no logical base or sense to me of how Scotland is supposedly better together with Westminster ? Imposing policies the overwhelming majority of the MSP’s voted against at Holyrood and hated by the majority of the fair minded people in Scotland, and as the months go on i reckon that imho it will be borne out with the ever increasing move to Yes.
With only having limited leaflets due to lack of a4 in the house, and shops being shut when printing the WOS pdf, i generously gave him my last leaflet, shook his hand, wished him well, and left him to it outside the dark entrance of the station squinting at the similar looking but polar opposite leaflets.
In the interest of fairness, there were two BT leafleters one at each entrance.
But the lack of steady people traffic would suggest they would have to get out a whole lot more to deliver the 500,000 leaflets.
Sent pics from better together no show @DingwallNoShow to @WingsScotland
Most amusing. Really is bitter out there tonight ho ho ho!
Ronnie they cant plow only dig. And the hole just keeps getting deeper. When Autumn comes they will stare in wonder at the failed harvest and ask…What went wrong?
Cauld Tattie
I was quite happy delivering the post in the rest of the village and I always got a lovely breakfast at one of the farms so it wasn’t all bad.
Are you a Perth postie?
Evening All
Just in from Glasgow Central
Four or Five BTs at or around the main Gordon St. entrance, six or seven people handing out Yes scotland flyers.
Two BT ladies at the upper hope street entrance.
A chap selling the evening times at the lower hope street entrance.
Two nice women with the watchtower and awake under the bridge at Argyle street.
Nobody at Union Street.
Took a stroll up to Queen street which had quite a few Yes leafleters, maybe half a dozen on Dundas street I only saw two Bt’s.
Yes also had the Subway entrance at Buchanan street covered.
West George Street was the other way round, a strong showing for BT and a couple of yes.
The back entrance at the car park wasn’t covered.
There was nobody from Better Together at Leuchars station today.
What a waste of time that was. 17.45, Barrhead station:
link to i1168.photobucket.com
link to i1168.photobucket.com
Both entrances! The girl inside the station on pic 2 had been there for half an hour. Fashed a yes badge when I asked her, she’s seen no bitter togetherers.
Well done to every body that has been Train Station Spotting,you,s maybe have started a new trend fur the
Train Spotter,s,they see the same Engine number,s day after day,after day,anybody want tae share a wee triffle,
Kirkcaldy station, 16.45, 5 degrees, dry and dreich.
(ShredderIsAlive reported that one BT representative was there in the morning.)
There were no UKOKers present upon arriving so I killed some time. I updated my rail timetables. No unionist zealots appeared. I bought some chocolate at the wee shop. No faithful Britons arrived. I ate the chocolate. Still no ‘No’s. I read the humorous poem carved in linoleum. Keen devotees of Britannia were conspicuous by their absence. I read the linoleum poem again, because it always makes me smile. I left at 17.15 unmolested by Better Together.
This is in a town of 50,000 where, in the proverbial fashion, the Labour votes are weighed not counted. Gordon Brown is nominally the local MP.
@kininvie
Well done to Ninjapenguin, I thought it was brilliant and obviously made with the few days headlines. I even got my wife to watch it!
link to youtube.com
@Ian Brotherhood
Cyberfud, that’ll do for me. Used from now on.
View of Duke Street, Glasgow, main entrance, and the second one from just a bit further back and round the corner. Other entrances were identical in the number of BT leafletters.
link to i61.tinypic.com
link to i58.tinypic.com
Sorry, forgot to say that photos were at 8:15am this morning
Only three in the school?
I put it down to Peer pressure.
From their grandfathers.
Thanks for your comment Ian Brotherhood.
I did mean to say in relation to the lack of evidence of NO at Wishaw train station that I was quite struck by the number of people from Wishaw who turned up in the Better Together launch video. The one featuring student Ryan and his beloved sausages. I would have thought it would have been a morning hive of BT activity. It seems like Dave Cameron, they prefer to stay at home when it matters.
just back in from Ayr. BT guy was there, he promptly complained to rail staff we were on there property, they politely moved us to the top of the path, we were giving out papers.
We stood opposite him and chatted a little, the guy was obviously English, he agreed with all the pro indy point’s I raised, trident, CAP, London sucking money, was a bit non-plussed about us giving 9.9% and getting back 9.3%.
Tbh I think the guy was being paid to be there!
@ian brotherhood.”If so, we need to identify our opponents using a similar term, and I propose Cyberfud (where ‘fud’ is an acronymous suffix referring to ‘fear, uncertainty and doubt’).”
I’ve been using ‘Unitroll’ for a while (at the hootsmon mainly, it’s apt). Cyberfud has more bite though.
I also claim originating ‘cringer(s)’, but this will be hotly contested.
That song about taking the high road, I finally get it.
Cupar Station remained steadfastly a No-free zone between the hours of 3.30 and 4.15, when rain, then sleet stopped play for 2 doughty observers, both acquaintances of mine.
Welsh not British,
You must mean “The Bonnie Banks o’ Loch Lomond.”? Back in the late twentieth century the band “Runrig” often did a rousing version although now Jim Murphy MP disapproves of them.
“http://nationalcollective.com/2014/01/25/jim-murphy-cybernat-detector/”
There’s also currently a Scots MP called ‘Pete Wishart’…
Good show from BT, delivered a total of ~100 leaflets, judging by our distribution rate over the hour in stead rain.
Aberdeen St Nicholas Street 4 inconspicuous BT out leafleting in the rain , shadowed politely by 2 fully togged out YES campaigners , signs and all.
BT gave up after 1 hour at 5:30, (all their leaflets had turned to paper mache)
YES campaigners persevered for another 1.2 hour, prepared with waterproof plastic leaflet folders in anticipation of the steady downpour for the full 1 hour.
No sign of any BT leafleting at Kelvindale Station. Or at least none I could see. Infact very few passengers used the station.
Just back from scouting out Ayr during the 5-6pm slot.
Think I met Alba-eddie there handing out papers 🙂
(Sorry if I seemed a bit curt with you, but I mistook you for “the enemy” on first sight and was deliberately playing the part of a rushed commuter trying to get home so as not to arouse suspicion, hehe).
Spent most of the first half-hour inside the station, but didn’t see anyone handing out leaflets in there. Noticed a couple of people with those “Goodbye” leaflets though, so left the station again to look around outside.
Think I saw that guy Alba-eddie mentioned talking to a younger guy with a backpack, but he hurried to his car and drove off fairly quickly before I could get a picture of him.
Not sure if he spotted me and thought I was a Vicious Evil Cybernat out to get him or just got fed up standing there in the cold and rain and decided to call it a night. My bet is on the latter…
I saw more people with Yes papers than with Goodbye leaflets anyway, so cheers to those braving the elements to hand them out! 😀
I really do think this was a good idea – but we can improve on it. Next time we should all take flasks of tea and cup cakes, we may disagree but some of them are not getting the support they need.
I was at Bridge of Allan at 7.30am to 8.15am – there were two BT leafleters on the Stirling bound side. I kept my distance as to not be menacing etc.
Stuck it out for two and a half hours in freezing cold Bathgate this evening. Bumped into Pedro early doors, the wee chap who moved out of the way while we took our photos prior to him leaving was one of the opposition.
Another crony of his arrived at about 4:45 and they started leafleting at the platform exit gate. I did approach them for a leaflet and a blether early doors but thought I was doing them a favour standing there with my Yes Scotland brolly so left them to their own devices.
A third volunteer arrived circa 5:30 and they must have handed out a few hundred leaflets while they were there with one or two folk saying they’d already been given one in Edinburgh.
Went back over to chat later when Jill arrived to get a group photo with them and they were all very pleasant folk albeit we didn’t really agree on what was best for our country, they really did believe that the UK was a wonderful place and that independence is a huge risk.
Nobody really persuaded anyone but it was good to have a debate with them, sensible enough chaps and not the rabid unionists I’d feared.
I’m sure we’ll bump into each other on the campaign trail again before September.
Oban station completely deserted from 4.00pm until 5.00 when I gave up from cold and loneliness. No sign of leaflets, discarded or in bins.
As only train scheduled to leave at 6.18 seemed unlikely that any rush would take place!
Paula Rose I really do think this was a good idea
It was an excellent idea. But next time we shouldn’t give them a warning. It seems clear from pm’s results that a big effort was made to get people out after the am’s fiasco.
And as for @Toshtastic … he really does remind me of someone we used to know and love!
@Gray
Really enjoyed that report. Thanks.
AYR – arrived at Ayr around 5.15pm. Greeted by two people handing out YES newspapers. Didn’t see anyone at first, then spotted an elderly gentleman handing out No Goodbye leaflets, but, not many by the look of it. Couldn’t take a decent pic. Five minutes later, the YES newspaper distributors were standing beside him and I left him to be educated by them.
So, I went off for a while and distributed a little homemade package of pro-indy information I had put together which included a long list of websites and youtube links to info plus some information about benefits of independence, also a local issue concerning Ayr Bay. Had a good response from people, only encountered three who volunteered that they were No voters and one of those took the pack and said he would take a look. Quite a few who said they were undecided and said they weren’t sure how to get information. So, I think I helped them out there :-). More than a few people said they had never voted, but, I think I convinced one man that he probably should.
When I had distributed all the info, I returned to the station just before 6pm and everyone seemed to have gone. I thought I had spend a productive hour 🙂
Wish I had a train station to watch! In a day like today I admire everyone from both sides out there. From this side the power is with you, so much achieved by so few people…..in it together for real. Power to the grass roots!
Guys, in the years to come,when our great grandchildren are looking back to these days,I’m sure they will appreciate your efforts.
Glasgow Alexandra Parade was bereft of leafleters 🙁 I have to say that 4-5pm seems like an odd time to be leafleting. I think that one was a red herring. I was a bit disappointed as I had taken along a box of Tunnock’s teacakes for them! I planned to win them over with kindness. 🙂
Back on the subject of the “Big debate” there’s a nice wee program called get_iplayer (Google it) that allows you to download entire programmes, but on the understanding that you (the downloader) manage the requirement to delete it after a reasonable period of time and don’t hang on to it forever.
Once installed, the record command for the programme is:
get_iplayer –get “Brian Taylor’s Big Debate” –type=radio –channel=”Radio Scotland”
That will download it and after a wee while will transcode it into a file that can be played on most media players.
Enjoy 🙂
ahhh … just seen the preview text the “–” is actually two “-” (hyphen) characters one after the other.
Wp, mark my words, there will be a book written about these days. And it will be called ‘And They Did It Deliberately’.
Agree with everyone that The Big Debate today was truly awful.
As said earlier only 3 out of 200 for independece and they said at the time one of them was a teacher!
It’s not full of Lords in waiting though. Much as Strathallan would like it to be it’s nowhere near posh enough for them. The real posh kids go to Gordonstoun or Fettes and if they must stay in Perthshire it’s of to Glenalmond.
Mostly new money chavs kids at Strath, delivered daily by private plated X5’s and Range Rover Sports. Maybe that’s why the researchers thought they might get a more balanced audience!
It’s really worth going to the listen again on Radio Scotland just to hear how truly awful it was.
Ian Brotherhood (2.45pm)
There were 40 of us inside the hall at that North Ayrshire BT launch, 10 of whom were openly for YES, so 75% either NO or Don’t Know.
Add in yourselves outside the hall and it probably was around your figure of 65% BT for the night.
When I saw what Carlaw was saying about the Nazi connotations of golden eagles this week, I was glad I had been there to wind him up that night. Not that any of it punctured his bubble, of course, but did get decidedly bothered for the duration.
I haven’t seen any BT troops on maneuvers in our part of the world since then. Maybe the gave up after their launch went so badly – a bit like the half-built ship Charlie Chaplin accidentally sends into the water in Modern Times.
So Toshstastic, what is it that you have done for the independence debate, that makes you ‘know’ what does or doesn’t work?
You seem to have a very good and clear writing style and you certainly have strong opinions, so do you have a blog yourself?
Please feel free to design the leaflet that will get through to what you describe as those who are stupid and ignorant, and I’m sure there will be no shortage of wings volunteers who will be happy to hand them out.
Actions speak louder than words, so…over to you Tosh
@Aidan –
Cheers mister.
Glad I spotted your reply!
These last half-dozen or so posts must be amongst the busiest WoS has ever had, and no small thanks due to the wonderful ‘Scottish’ Daily Mail (or is it the ‘Mail in Scotland’ – who cares?)
I hope we can work together sometime – sooner the better. I can’t speak for the whole SSP, but a lot of us feel as if we’re not quite fitting under the ‘Yes’ umbrella and are getting a wee bit drookit – know what I mean?
I haven’t seen the latest ‘Yes’ newspaper yet, but I’d be pleasantly astonished if it contains any mention of the SSP. The Greens are, somehow more palatable, so I’m guessing there may be a guest column by Patrick Harvie? (The first ‘Yes’ newspaper was definitely a SNP production, right? Is this one the same?)
Anyway, I salute you mister – more power to ye, and I’m sure our paths will cross again. Cheers!
@Aidan
Looking at the state of some of the folks who went in there, I doubt they’re really up to the task of facing co-ordinated armies of Evil Cybernat troops 😉
I believe the Yes newspapers are SNP productions. We take what we get.
I was at a meeting tonight where both Patrick Harvie and Robin McAlpine spoke and I have to say they were both absolutely inspirational.
Right now I don’t much care what colour anyone’s politics are so long as they are pushing for a Yes vote.
Would be nice if more of the parties involved were allowed to stand up and be counted though.
The media know that a lot of people have accepted the smear campaigning against Alex Salmond and have set out to try to associate the Yes campaign with the SNP in people’s minds.
WE all know it’s a load of rubbish, but there are people who believe it. I’ve talked to a lot of people who have trotted out the line: “I’m not voting Yes because I don’t like Alex Salmond!”
As stupid as that sounds, there are apparently a lot of people falling for it.
But I think if all the other parties supporting independence were seen to be more visible to the public and were seen by the public to be openly supporting the independence campaign, it might go some way towards convincing them that there’s more to this than the SNP.
Just my opinion on it…
“Right now I don’t much care what colour anyone’s politics are so long as they are pushing for a Yes vote”
Spot on 🙂
@Morag, Patrick Roden & Oneironaut –
Agreed.
I don’t want to appear to be whining, but we have good people in the SSP. Colin Fox (as you will all know, having seen his speech at Calton Hill) is a fine speaker and a very smart man. It’s very disheartening for Socialists (forget ‘SLAB’) that our reps are never given any airtime.
We just want a fair crack of the whip – if it was even vaguely proportionate to the amount of street-work we do then I wouldn’t be raising this at all. But the fact remains, and shouldn’t be ducked – the ‘Yes’ newspaper is a full-blown SNP production, and the other parties who presented themselves on the ‘Yes’ platform are all-but excluded from the PR drive. (Caveat: I haven’t seen the 2nd edition yet…)
C’est la vie, and it’s a shame, but, hey, we are where we are, and all know where we want to be. ‘Pragmatism’ is the name of the game, right? – if we learned nothing else from Kinnock and Blair, we learned that.
But let’s not pretend that there isn’t a hefty proportion of Yes campaigners who want to see a harder, more visionary and ambitious line of attack in the months ahead. People like Colin Fox and Allan Grogan are suited for the task, represent hundreds of thousands of people in this country, and deserve to be given space to air their take on it all.
Shouldn’t we be absolutely bloody furious at that travesty of a programme on Radio ‘Scotland’ earlier today? I mean really, really angry.
And yet some are worried about us upsetting some purveyors of BT lies today.
Toughen up or lose people.
@Toshtastic: I appreciate that, and I think thats the big problem lately. About 6 months ago I came to this site looking for information. If voting today then I would vote YES – thanks in part to this site.
Lately though I feel that this site is more about petty attacks and is losing sight of what its power is.
I’ll have to agree to disagree: what you deem petty attacks, I call response to extreme provocation. And quite measured it is, all things considered.
The Daily Mail campaign increased traffic on this site (as well as pressure/stress on the Rev), but Ill be surprised if the majority of them dont think its just a mad ‘cybernat’ site.
Those are voters that could have been convinced to keep looking for themselves.
I know if I came to it now then I am not sure if I would have stuck with it
Then that’s their problem, unfortunately. I make a very concerted effort to remember that everything I say can and will be read by an undecided or No voter, but at the same time, I won’t allow my real thoughts to be tempered by that.
What the Daily Mail have done is nothing short of despicable: they have targeted ordinary people and emblazoned their faces, names, and hometowns for the public, in a manner indistinguishable from criminals. The Daily Mail are equating law-abiding citizens with fraudsters, abusers and thugs – who haven’t even been charged of anything.
Make no mistake, what we’re doing here is not petty or vindictive. This is the future of our country we’re talking about, and the opposing campaign is actively working to ensure perpetuity of the House of Lords, the likelihood of Conservative government, illegal wars, and most importantly, being 8% of a country of 60 million people who don’t share our values rather than 100% with total sovereignty.
@Ian Brotherhood
Thanks, Ian!
You’re right that the papers are produced by the SNP. The first one was SNP-flavoured, through and through.
This second one has a lot more neutral Saltire-tones with notes of pro-Indy Labour. No sign of Greens or SSP – inclusivity of that order would have been a brave and frankly amazing step on their part.
Personally, I’d love to have seen an article by Robin McAlpine but it’s just not structured to carry that kind of content. It’s going for a large number of easily digestible bites of information, like a reduced and greatly simplified version of the Q&A section of Scotland’s Future. I think it manages to get a lot across – no-one reading it can justifiably complain that they’re not getting any answers from it.
You also get the names, faces and words of a range of ‘ordinary folk’ voting Yes, a page comparing Norway and Scotland, a back-page devoted to creative talents for Yes, and (of course) some visible SNP content, including an Alex Salmond sidebar-comment and a two-page interview with Nicola Sturgeon.
I think it’s a big step up from the last one. Controlled, information-rich and reassuring.
The way I see this Yes-umbrella thing is that there’s a single, visionary umbrella for all of us (that’s the one I’m under) and then there are a number of organisational tents. The organisation of Yes-Scotland is one of these tents; it is not the umbrella. It is not the movement of and toward Yes in the country itself. Most of the effective activity in the campaign seems to be, like Wings, occurring outside the tent but under the umbrella.
I wouldn’t be surprised that the SNP-tent (and any publication that comes out of it) isn’t particularly accommodating to other political perspectives and directions – why would it be? – but I think the Yes Scotland tent definitely should be open to all. The SSP are as much Yes as anyone so if you’re not getting in there at a national level, maybe you have to push a bit. You’ll probably find you don’t have to push too hard, though. As for local Yes-groups, they all want help with paper-deliveries and leafletting. 🙂
Seriously, how could there not be room for you if the aim is the same? It’s all just people out there, as far as I can see, and order really does appear to be emerging from the chaos. It’s an emergence being guided by thousands of idiosyncratic combinations of knowledge, vision and action. What a privilege to play even a tiny part in this!
I look forward to meeting up with you sometime soon maybe.
@cauldtattie You used to be our trustie Postie! It was our neighbours farm that used to give you breakfast. Moved north few years ago. But that school still tends to make me want to spit
All who replied :
I think a few people seem to be mistaking my points as an attack. Let me be clear that I am 100% against what the Daily Mail have done, and 100% agree that we need to shout louder just to be heard
A lot of people I know (many who are active canvassers) didnt agree with yesterdays actions – I apologise if I annoyed people by sounding dismissive. All I am trying to say is that yesterdays actions can easily be turned into a ‘sinister cybernats’ headline.
I appreciate that we need to fight hard, but I dont think Im saying anything too harsh when I say we could have approached it better.
Im not intelligent to write my own blog, nor do I have the resource to organise a pro-active campaign – but I am 100% happy to join in or help others with anything. Im not trying to pass the buck, I just wouldnt know where to start on my own
patrick roden : So Toshstastic, what is it that you have done for the independence debate, that makes you ‘know’ what does or doesn’t work?
nothing worth bragging about. To be honest, this is my first time posting on this site.
I have done nothing more than actively engage people I meet daily. Ive brought a number of people to this site and I have convinced a few people to think for themselves
I wish I could write a blog or site like this, but in all honesty Id probably just be copying & pasting text from here onto my own site 🙂
a supporter : And as for @Toshtastic … he really does remind me of someone we used to know and love!
Care to expand on that?
@Aidan
Looking at the weather right now, I’d be happy to duck under that Yes-umbrella myself, hehe 🙂
Anyways, just saying, I’m available if anyone needs any help outs at events or anything.
Haven’t seen any BT activity in the Three Towns area, but apart from that stall I met you at in Saltcoats, I haven’t seen a huge Yes presence either.
Wondering if we should get some folks together and get something started over here 🙂
@ Oneironaut
There’s another leafletting event in Saltcoats next Saturday (8th Feb) 10.30am. There was meant to be one in Beith this morning but it got cancelled due to not wanting people to have to chase their own soggy leaflets down the main street.
I don’t think Yes people have to be confined to ‘official’ Yes events. The idea behind the campaign is the reverse. If we have the time, the energy and the inclination to do something, we should go for it and ask for help if we need it.
Strategy and co-ordination also seem like good ideas, though. Looking on the Yes Scotland site, there is a ‘Yes Ardrossan, Saltcoats & Stevenston’ group listed. They might well benefit from an infusion of lifeblood in the form of volunteers. I know people from there come over to the monthly group-meeting I’ve been going to in Dalry (which the website lists as ‘Yes North Ayrshire’ but which I believe is technically ‘Yes Garnock Valley & West Kilbride’).
The main strategy of the official campaign at this stage is “get the papers out”. This makes sense to me, with the balance of daylight against us at this time of year and the appalling weather. The papers will almost certainly have a good effect and are a way to bypass the MSM and reach out to almost everybody.
Having said that, wouldn’t it be great to see a more frequent and sustained Yes presence? There must be loads of us out there feeling that. If we’re feeling that and we CAN be that presence, maybe we SHOULD be. I think we need to either plug ourselves into a local Yes group and volunteer/ contribute ideas or else bud off a group with it’s own stripe and co-ordinate with existing Yes activities. WE are Yes.
If folks round here are having a get-together of any kind, count me in.
@Aidan –
Good positive stuff and I agree with all you say. (I would’ve replied to you earlier but couldn’t remember what thread we were on!)
@Aidan + Ian Brotherhood
Well I’m really not the leader/organiser type. It’s just a role I lack the capacity to handle I think.
I’m more the “back-room tech support” type! 🙂
Still, if either of you need a hand with anything, feel free to get in touch 🙂
These is all complete bollocks. I know.
I was actually there and the picture painted here by highly partisan “Yes- men” is a travisty of the truth. As for you, Your Reverence, you should be ashamed of yourself for telling fibs.
“I was actually there”
Where? There on the stair?
“Yesterday, upon the stair, I met a man who wasn’t there.
He wasn’t there again today; I wish, I wish he’d go away.”
link to youtu.be