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The language of priorities

Posted on June 23, 2014 by

The Edinburgh Evening News, today:

“Families across the Capital are facing a £780 cut to their annual income following a shake-up of the benefits system, new research has revealed.

Welfare reforms being brought in at Westminster are set to suck £130 million out of the city’s economy – equivalent to £390 for every working-age adult.

The study – produced by experts at Sheffield Hallam University – reveals parents collecting child benefit are most likely to see cuts in their payments while those on incapacity benefit will see the steepest yearly reductions of up to £145. And it has emerged that some of Edinburgh’s poorest areas will suffer the most.

The average family in Craigmillar – the worst-hit neighbourhood in Edinburgh – will lose out on £1240 per year once the full range of reforms are introduced.

But significant losses will be felt even in the city’s most affluent districts, with each family in the Meadows-Morningside ward set to shoulder an average annual hit of £440.”

Well, as long as the poor people are suffering three times as much as the rich people, and the disabled are being hit hardest of all, clearly coalition policy is working as intended. Of course, if Labour get in, it’ll be different – they plan even MORE welfare cuts than the Tories, and they’re proud of it. If you can’t work, you’re dead weight.

We didn’t quite grasp the meaning of the phrase “we’re all in this together” when David Cameron said it before, but we think we’ve got it now.

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    1. 23 06 14 15:03

      The language of priorities | Scottish Independence News

    82 to “The language of priorities”

    1. sydthesnake says:

      enough said, only way to hit back, VOTE YES

    2. Colin says:

      And that is just Edinburgh, what will the total cost be to Scotland?

    3. Ali says:

      So how does this fit with that £1400 union dividend

    4. Luigi says:

      I suppose the SLAB BBC calculation is that soon none of us will be able to afford computer hardware, social media will eventually die, and all will be well again, back at the mushroom farm.

    5. Nigel says:

      This, in effect, sees more and more money sucked into the London economic zone…

      Less coming back to Scotland, widening the gap between tax take and what Scotland contributes to the UK.

      Aye, Stu, I think we’ve got it now…better (all in it) together… what a mess…

      http://nairnyes.wordpress.com/

    6. Dougie says:

      And labour voters are voting No
      You could not make it up

    7. eezy says:

      Pool and share.
      Better Together.
      ………Sure….

    8. Iain (orri) McCord says:

      It’s a bit like the bit in Titanic where one character is lying almost full length on a piece of floating jetsam whilst her boyfriend is hanging on by his fingertips freezing to death. In it together, certainly.

    9. handclapping says:

      I’m sure the people voting No are banking on the incompetence of Westminster to be unable to actually get these “reforms” to work. I’ve got news for them, their incompetence is one sided. If it means their cronies get money for nothing, by mistake ho ho, they can manage it. If it means kicking sand in the face of the weak they can manage that too.

      Take a course of Yes in the time up to the 18th and lets show the bullies.

    10. velofello says:

      @ Ali: £1240 is pretty close to the £1400 divide(nd) you quote.

      We can’t go on like this. Vote Yes.

    11. Nigel says:

      I read this as that contemptible HM Government booklet about how great the Union is drops through my letter box…

      Freeposted back to Bitter Together with ‘No Thanks’ scrawled across the cover…

      http://nairnyes.wordpress.com/

    12. joe kane says:

      Labour Party troll-bots were spinning the last Reeves “tougher than the Tories” interview with the Guardian as a misinterpretation or some kind of deliberate fabrication on the part of the journalist and newspaper concerned.

      Now that we have an actual independently verifiable recording of a Reeves interview we can all judge for ourselves what this ex-City banker has to say on the matter of Labour Party welfare policy.

      I’d imagine that the Reeves interview yesterday on the BBC Sunday Politics show should have just about sunk Labour’s already floundering credibility in Scotland.

    13. Busy-Bee says:

      And then there is this alternative….
      http://www.cityam.com/1403501061/scotland-could-be-financial-powerhouse
      I know which future I’d like 😀

    14. Macart says:

      Oh, I think the message is pretty clear.

      From the parties that claim an independent Scotland’s numbers don’t add up. We bring you the real cost of governmental mismanagement and austerity measures.

    15. Colin says:

      Labour would be just as bad if not worse.

      “We were set up as the party to represent the values of working people, working being the key word. We weren’t set up as some sort of charity to help the poorest in society – the long-term unemployed, the benefit dependent, the drug addicted, the homeless.” (Tom Harris, Labour MP for Glasgow South)

    16. HandandShrimp says:

      Austerity has actually gone pretty quet as we approach the referendum/election. Full blooded slashing will return to a cinema near you the moment they don’t want your vote…especially as borrowing is creeping back up.

    17. Nana Smith says:

      But Alastair Carmichael is busy pushing the great UKOK message. Just hope the Edinburgh folks read the above first.

      http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/alistair-carmichael-what-no-means-for-scotland-1-3453649

    18. manandboy says:

      Ladies & Gentlemen,

      The brilliant Rev Stuart Campbell.

      I met a lovely elderly lady yesterday who told me she didn’t like Alec Salmond and that she would be voting for the Union.

      I got the impression she was a bit confused as to the difference between a referendum and an election.

      I doubt that she is the only one who is not clear on the issue.

      How many votes I wonder will be squandered by people like her.

      A consequence perhaps of the No campaigns’ refusal
      to use the actual wording on the ballot paper
      but choosing instead to muddle the electorate
      by adding words like ‘separated’ in statements of consequence rather than the precise intention of the referendum –

      ‘Should Scotland be an independent country ‘

    19. Graeme Menzies says:

      No voters – Turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind.

    20. joe kane says:

      I’ve already posted this a few times on OWS, but the Labour Party have next to no interest in listening to disabled people themselves when it comes to solving the already endemic poverty that affect people who are born with or are subject to limiting physical and mental conditions (20% of the population).

      Only the other month Labour buried its own commissioned report on disability and poverty. Many of those outraged by this behaviour are Labour members themselves some of whom include the authors and contributors to the report.

      Actions speak louder than words – Labour publish Poverty & Disability taskforce report
      Benefit Scrounging Scum
      25 Apr 2014

    21. Black Douglas says:

      Sorry for going O/T so early but looks like the merry-go-round of project fear turns again, this time on shipbuilding.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27979281

    22. heedtracker says:

      It’s the teamGB lotto of life in action. Brown/Darling “saved” the world by giving RBS nearly £50 billion and it’s all been widdled away, bonuses and what not. The RBS saviour that Crash and the Flipper appointed to save RBS trousered about £6 million which is peanuts for these guys realy. Both Crash and the Flipper will make double that after all their hard work in government. Check out the Daily Heil on Steve Hester.

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2569787/RBS-squandered-penny-46bn-bailout-continuing-rack-huge-losses-financial-crash.html

    23. manandboy says:

      joe kane says:
      23 June, 2014 at 1:58 pm
      ‘… the Labour Party have next to no interest in listening to disabled people themselves ….’

      Very true Joe, except when your mammy’s in the Scottish Shadow Cabinet.

      Then, money’s no object to Labour.

    24. Neil Craig says:

      Assuming an average of £600 per family.

      Government administering taxing people has a cost. So has administering hnading it out. Take those as 15% off both ends (which probably understates at least the handing out) and we get the average family paying £780 (£600 X 130%).

      So what taxes are promised to rise in the glorious new Scotland. Don’t all answer at once.

    25. Stevie says:

      Personally speaking, I happen to be in an okay financial position but the BritNat austerity plans horrify and terrify. If the Scottish people vote NO then they are condemning their children (100K more Scottish kids thrown into poverty by 2020), their old folk, the sick and disabled and the working poor to crushing poverty with no exit. Watch the crime rate rocket and social problems install themseives for generations. FFS use your heads and do what is actually good for you – vote YES, you don’t want the NO alternative, you really don’t.

    26. manandboy says:

      So, to sum up,

      Labour intend to surpass The Tory/LibDem public spending cuts

      while Ed Miliband on being elected PM in 2015, plans to govern like Margaret Thatcher.

      While elsewhere, some take the view that the Tories will be in power for the next 15 years, with or without a little help from coalition friends like UKIP and the LibDems.

      And Labour voters,
      in order to minimise risk,
      following advice from JK Rowling,
      are planning to vote No
      to secure their futures.

      Asylum ?

      This way please.

    27. HandandShrimp says:

      Labour need to set out their stall

      They complain about the proposed Scottish Government proposals on corporation tax yet Brown reduced CT and so has Osborne. Osborne has further cuts in the pipeline. Do labour propose to reverse all these cuts? What is the right CT level?

      Labour talk about pooling and sharing but in the same breath talk about clamping down on benefits. If we vote No what will the impact be on Government disbursements, either through benefits or Barnett? If pooling and sharing means less for everyone then how can they present this as Better Together?

      Labour have two narratives, one for the referendum and one for the election. I have no illusions about which narrative Balls and Miliband are working to. I am fairly confident that Lamont and Darling know too and that what they are engaging in is intellectually dishonest.

    28. handclapping says:

      @manandboy
      Asylum : lunatic or political?

      We could all turn up at the US Embassy and ask for political asylum on the 22nd if there is a No

    29. scottish_skier says:

      @Neil Craig

      So what taxes are promised to rise in the glorious new Scotland

      UKIP think centre-right policies are bad and want a big state with re-nationalisation and tax increases for the wealthy. Farage has been attacking Thatcherism as damaging for great swaths of the UK for example.

      http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/farage-tries-shed-his-thatcherite-skin

      most of Ukip’s supporters favour an expanded state and higher public spending. Polling by YouGov shows that 78 per cent support the nationalisation of the energy companies and 73 per cent back the renationalisation of the railways. Rather than a “code of conduct” for employers (as promised by Farage), 57 per cent simply want zero-hours contracts to be banned. Rather than a 40p top tax rate, the same number support the reintroduction of the 50p rate.

      They also advocate a Scotland having a completely open border facilitating mass immigration even though they tell people the opposite.

      Basically, they seem to be a confused BNP.

      Why do you keep pretending they are centre-right libertarians who want low taxes, a bigger private sector and strict border controls? The polling figures and their open borders policy do not lie. UKIP are increasingly socialists (as long as you are white British).

    30. heedtracker says:

      @ HandandShrimp, if it wisnae the corp tax cut, it’d be something else. You’re right about the going quiet on austerity GB too. It’s interesting watching the Press and Journal here in Aberdeen mimicking the highly localised front page cat stuck up tree BBC in Scotland focus, then their ferocious anti independence attacks on page 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 etc. BetterTogetherBBC/UKpress could actually have a strategy.

    31. Clootie says:

      I cannot believe any government, in any modern democracy, would target the most vulnerable in society to save money.

      Regardless of any party affiliation you may have I’m sure you could not envisage these policies being In acted by a Scottish Parliament.

      Colin’s quote from Tom Harris demonstrates how Westminster sucks the soul from many when they join the dark side.

      We cannot allow this obscenity to continue. It appears to have been forgotten that the crisis was caused by London banks reckless gambling and Politicians failing to legislate. (Brown/Darling)

    32. turnbull drier says:

      Sorry O/T but just found this on the bbc web site…

      “A vote for independence could lead to the loss of thousands of shipbuilding jobs, Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont has said.

      Ms Lamont claimed a “Yes” vote would lead to the loss of UK defence contracts.

      It was “inconceivable” that defence contracts would be offered if Scotland left the UK, she added.”

      ARRRGGGGHHHHHH, how many time must we listen to this pish.. ffs.. recycle, recycle, recycle..

      Why doesn’t anyone just listen to the folk who are actually contracted to build then feckin things..

      rant over…

    33. joe kane says:

      Thanks manandboy.

      Yes, the Scottish Government recently published its own Expert Working Group on Welfare final report to great media fanfare and with obvious pride in standing up for those who find themselves in unfortunate circumstances through no fault of their own.

      Compare the non-obfuscating, straightforward approach of the SNP and Scottish Government to current welfare issues (its buisness-like demolition of the bedroom tax in Scotland was scary in its ruthlessness and efficiency) as well their plans for a future independent Scottish welfare state to that of the Labour Party on welfare – heeing and hawing over the bedroom tax; Scottish Labour’s “ordinary” mum PR joke; buried disability-poverty reports and Reeves who claims to oppose Tory welfare policies whilst at the same time supports them and says they don’t go far enough.

      Reference –
      Expert Working Group on Welfare and Constitutional Reform
      The Scottish Government

    34. frazer allan whyte says:

      I thought the Westminster government was being run by capitalists and the opposition by capitalists-light. Why are they reducing the purchasing power of the general population? Isn’t people having the power to buy things a good thing for capitalists?

      Does this mean that neither the Tories nor Labour have any principles at all? (We already know that about the Fib-dems)Maybe they just like to hurt people because it makes them feel powerful.Like Blair and Brown bombing people in other countries to show that they were “punching above their weight” on the world stage.Leave the locals to starve and suffer because they are also defenseless targets. Government by and for sadists.

    35. Flower of Scotland says:

      @Stevie

      I also am financially ok. However who can say what will happen after a no vote? Westminster will have a mandate to cripple Scotland and rob her of her resources and confidence! We will never be able to hold our heads up high again. It surely must be a human right to govern and be goverened by ourselves and we will be saying that we would rather another country governed us!

      Too many brainwashed feart people! This is the time to stand up and be counted!

    36. desimond says:

      Last weeks STV News opened with “Scottish Governement slammed by child care group”. “Oh whats this?”, I wondered. It turns out it was around 20 folk from kinship families outside Holyrood looking for more support and recognition for people having to raise other family members.

      I was thinking “Wow, must be a right slow news day” but now realise its just another attempt at chipping away at the Scots Governments reputation of actually caring about its people unlike the other parties.

      http://news.stv.tv/north/221527-new-support-group-launched-to-help-kinship-carers-in-scotland/

    37. gerry parker says:

      O/T.
      Livestreem just now, interview with Dr Mark Mc Naught.

    38. Macandroid says:

      @Black Douglas. Usual distortion in headline. Compare and contrast:

      Scottish independence: ‘Yes’ vote means loss of shipbuilding jobs, says Lamont

      There is a danger that if we vote ‘Yes’ in September we won’t have a shipbuilding industry any longer, because we’re reliant on these defence contracts,”

      One is definite, one is not – which to believe – er – neither?

    39. Colin says:

      @turnbull drier

      “It was “inconceivable” that defence contracts would be offered if Scotland left the UK, she added.”

      But it is OK to give defence shipbuilding contracts to South Korea, as is presently done?

      Labour are our worst enemies not the toxic tories.

    40. msean says:

      We’re already skint together even if you work,only way to change it is to vote yes,even the pensions will be affected eventually.

    41. Sinky says:

      Why would anyone vote No and being Poorer Together?

      Don’t forget to return your UK Government propaganda booklet to:

      Better Together, FREEPOST RTAU-ZCRB-TELS, 5 Blythswood Square, Glasgow, G2 4AD

    42. Giving Goose says:

      I wonder what Sarah Boyack thinks about this?
      I wonder if her dad, the late Jim Boyack, would be proud at how Devolution has failed to protect the vulnerable in Scottish society.
      I heard on the grapevine that Sarah was swithering regarding the vote on 18th September. Well Sarah, it’s about time you and others within the Labour Party came clean, please.
      Are you against the poor and vulnerable in Scotland?

    43. manandboy says:

      The UK Gov responds in 1974 to The McCrone Report
      on the implications of Scottish Oil & Gas
      discoveries in the North Sea,
      by deciding to pocket all the revenues
      lie to the Scots about it,
      while placing a 30 yr gagging order on
      McCrone’s report.

      That’s the baseline-
      40 years of lying about Scotland’s wealth

      When Scotland gets Independence,
      the books will be open on ALL the decisions
      which Westminster has taken re Scotland since 1974.

      Now think.

      We’re talking about the stuff that’s secret and will only be revealed after Independence.

      Does anyone in Scotland actually think
      that Westminster has treated Scotland FAIRLY
      in that period.
      Does anyone in Scotland actually think
      that Westminster has treated Scotland GENEROUSLY
      over the last 40 years.

      Or, does anyone in Scotland think
      that Westminster might have treated Scotland UNFAIRLY
      in that period.

      When the TRUTH gets out
      the scales will fall from Scotland’s eyes with a crash.

      Discovery, and with it, hindsight,
      is waiting for us with a Yes

      Continued blindness with a No.

    44. TheItalianJob says:

      @HandandShrimp says:

      “Labour have two narratives, one for the referendum and one for the election. I have no illusions about which narrative Balls and Miliband are working to. I am fairly confident that Lamont and Darling know too and that what they are engaging in is intellectually dishonest.”

      This so true. We are getting fed one thing against Independence from Labour and on the other hand one for to suit their GE in 2015 with the help of the Scottish MPs following a No vote.

    45. Neil Craig says:

      Skier, despite, yet again, telling me I am not allowed, by your definition, to believe what I obviously do believe, you have made no attempt to answer the question.

      Still, puts you ahead of the other smoke blowers.

    46. Neil Craig says:

      And skier I’m not sure you are completely right about the BNP policy being unlimited immigration. You may be confused by the socialist nature of Fascism.

    47. Nana Smith says:

      @manandboy

      Yes indeed and consider how many Scottish mps hid the truth and were prepared to have their constituents called subsidy junkies.
      Makes me so bloody angry….

    48. Macandroid says:

      Labour MSPs secretly planning to vote YES.

    49. dennis mclaughlin says:

      Never mind the bayonet , bring back Madame Guillotine for this bunch of Westminster Shylyocks.

    50. Sinky says:

      Ed Miliband is on a day visit to Scotland this week, no doubt holding up the front page of The Sun proclaiming “This is our England” , and will be feted by the supine Scottish media which to date has been reluctant to publicise the disquiet among Labour’s back benchers with Miliband’s leadership.

      Particularly as a recent poll showed that 43% of Labour voters think he should be ditched as Leader.

      From yesterday’s Sunday Times: Senior figures in the party brief that Miliband is “weird”. His personal ratings have been in steady decline since he became leader.

      Recent efforts to generate positive publicity have brought ridicule. Photographs of Miliband eating a bacon sandwich were the most disastrous interface of politician and food since his brother David brandished a banana.

      What has gone wrong? What do Miliband’s problems say about the sort of prime minister he would be? Why do many of his own supporters think he is not up to the job? And what does he plan to do about it? INSIDERS speak of policy disagreements, personality clashes and poor party management, framed and exacerbated by the character of the leader. Labour’s focus groups show he is still tainted by the act of political fratricide in beating his brother David to the leadership. Female voters think it odd that he was only belatedly added to the birth certificate of his first child.

      According to YouGov, just 11% of voters think he is a strong leader, and 51% say he is weak. Only 16% think he is “an asset” for his party; 43% believe he is “a liability”. A mere 14% think he “looks and sounds like a prime minister”, while 70% disagree. Just 21% think he is “up to the job”, while 60% do not.

      Asked who has been the best Labour leader, only 2% name Miliband, half as many as for Neil Kinnock, the loser of the 1992 election, and just one percentage point ahead of Michael Foot, who was beaten by a landslide in 1983.

    51. seanair says:

      Giving Goose
      Another MSP forecast to “turn” is Macolm Chisholm, but he’s appearing at an “indyref debate” in Edinburgh on Monday and he ain’t on the Yes side. I’m going along to see if he is happy with his constituents losing benefits.
      If Sarah Boyack intended to become a YES, she would surely have said so by now. I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t hold out much hope.

    52. seanair says:

      I just don’t read anything posted by Neil Craig, just as I don’t read the newspapers (Sunday Herald excepted) and I feel so much better.
      Don’t be tempted!

    53. dennis mclaughlin says:

      ‘ Professional Politicians’ plz start a que for the tumblrill…..you’re 1st in line for the final cut.

    54. scottish_skier says:

      @Neil Craig

      I’m not saying you don’t hold centre-right libertarian beliefs, simply that UKIP doesn’t in majority and you should make that clear. If people are to vote UKIP as you wish, you should be honest about the strong support in its ranks for a much more left-wing agenda with a big state, higher taxes and re-nationalisation of key industries.

      Otherwise, you are misleading those you seek to recruit and that will surely in time backfire.

      As for your question; you seem to be attacking the Scottish government for possibly, maybe, increasing taxes in some hypothetical future when UKIP – your own party – in majority support tax rises. Maybe you don’t personally but the party you are trying sell does (57% in that poll) and Nigel has cancelled plans for a flat tax confirming the big leftwards shift.

      Honesty is the best way to win votes. If UKIP activists are dishonest, then UKIP just becomes like the other UK parties.

      What seems to be happening is UKIP, whilst previously outflanking the Tories on the right, has realised this is a lost cause and are now outflanking labour on the left. This is getting into BNP territory (quite socialist so long as you are white British), hence UKIP hoovering up former BNP voters and annoying Nick Griffin.

      Remember, UKIP started out life as centre left; they are just returning to their roots.

    55. Giving Goose says:

      seanair:
      If you get the chance pin Chisholm down. He is either of the Left or he’s not. The time has long passed when being of the Left excluded the possibility of Scottish Independence. By supporting No, Chisholm, Boyack et al are effectively showing support for the Conservative Party.
      They are also demonstrating a callous disregard for the vulnerable in society.
      Hiding behind Unionism is simply not enough any more.

    56. scottish_skier says:

      @Neil Craig

      Both the BNP and UKIP currently support Scotland having no immigration controls with an open border meaning it could potentially be subject to mass, uncontrolled immigration. They also advocate Scotland having no power over its own economy / finances, severely limiting its ability to manage public services in response to immigration.

      If you want Scotland to have strict immigration controls, voting Yes in September is the best way to achieve this as independence would give Scotland power in this area.

      What you are proposing is people vote No to control over immigration in September, leaving this power with the very parliament UKIP complain has created the ‘immigration problem’ they perceive to exist in the first place.

      I’m sorry, but this makes no obvious sense.

    57. R. Duncan says:

      Just had a lad , around 20ish with the better together leaflet.

      This the Dalkeith area.

      We chatted for a min before he told me he is a tory. From the west cost, and a disabled mother on benefits. He told me without a stutter or hesitation that .

      1) The tory govt have been good for Scotland. Labour and SNP are the baddies. they have “bankrupt Scotland”
      2) They have a welfare plan to help his mother. The SNP plan to take her benefits away.
      3) Alecsalmin is a dictator who is only after the leadership of Scotland. Queen out first chance.
      4) We will not get into the EU as iScotland
      5) We are a voice on the world stage. ( he threw in china’s comment but not Obama??)
      6) We would not be able to use the pound.
      7) We don’t have the resources to “manage” our oil and UK does.

      had to stop him as i wanted to punch his jaw.. but i said
      “how will that benefit me”??( Disabled , on benefits , dla)

      WE (tory) will role out a new better system for all of you.

      I said “NO THANKS”and quietly shut the door.

      The reason i write is , it’s all the scares and smears said over and over again. No real positive motives just negative shit.

      This is how they intend to change Dk minds. Scare the bejesus out of everyone. be warned i mentioned Wings and Bella and he looked like he would throw up.(i kid you not)and said “i don’t go anywhere NEAR THAT site”. Like he was a wee laddie caught with a porn mag. You Wings readers should know ,you the BOGEYMAN .

      And that funnily enough makes me feel better.

    58. seanair says:

      Giving Goose
      We’ll see what happens. Anyone who wants to attend the meeting should note it seems to be organised by Leith Central Community Council, and will take place in the Carlton Centre, 121 Montgomery Street at 7.00 pm on Monday 30th June.

    59. TJenny says:

      Boo!

    60. TJenny says:

      Btw, that last comment was in response to R. Duncan. 🙂

    61. No no no...Yes says:

      Based on what Rachel Reeves and Miliband have guaranteed to do to the most vulnerable in society, I am mystified why JK Rowling wants to continue support this type of Labour Party.

    62. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      T Jenny

      Oh.

    63. Nana Smith says:

      Westminster hostile to Barnett formula…should just read Westminster hostile to Scotland!

      http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/msps-told-westminster-hostile-to-barnett-formula-1-3453849

    64. Robert Peffers says:

      @scottish_skier:
      Don’t feed the Troll.

    65. Neil Craig says:

      Skier you are simply making up your own ludicrous claims of what UKIP (& the BNP) “really” stand for (the claim that both stand for unlimited immigration is particularly loony and if anybody in the Radical Independence thugs here believed a word you said they would have to make grovelling apologies.

      May I return your own words to you about the inadvisability, over the long term, of lying to your supporters. It seems that there is nobody here who has any compunction of taking both sides of any issue & declaring both to be separatist policy and the guaranteed outcome of the glorious day of separation. Clearly half the separatists, at least, are bound to end up feeling cheated.

      You make millenarianists look reasonable.

    66. scottish_skier says:

      “Skier you are simply making up your own ludicrous claims of what UKIP (& the BNP) “really” stand for (the claim that both stand for unlimited immigration is particularly loony “

      Let me make this simple. Do UKIP support an open border for Scotland with the rUK (which remains part of the EU) and no Holyrood powers over immigration – meaning Scotland has no way of stopping potential mass uncontrolled immigration to it (and of course little economic controls to deal with the outcome of immigration due to Westminster having power here) – or not?

      And I linked to polls showing a strong majority of UKIPers support a large state with re-nationalisation of industries and higher taxes. The numbers were not trivial at all. I can provide more if you wish – it’s a common theme and why Farage is moving the party leftwards.

      So, no, I’m not making anything up. What seems to be happening is you wish to speak on here for UKIP with your own views and ignore the voice of UKIP voters. I’m sorry, but that’s classic UK party activist behaviour and not what you should be doing if you want to recruit people to UKIP.

    67. scottish_skier says:

      ‘Don’t feed the Troll’

      Neil Craig is not a troll. A troll’s single aim is to disrupt. Neil is genuinely putting forward his own views; he has an extensive website detailing these.

      However, he is not representative of UKIP supporters at all (they seem much more centre-left), and is not being clear about their policy. Voting No to Scottish independence will not give Scotland control over immigration which is the opposite of what he’s trying to sell.

      While I am fine with Scottish government policy in this issue, I do believe it worth pointing out to people that UKIP in Scotland do not support Scotland having any control of immigration at all.

    68. TJenny says:

      Eeek – I’m having probs getting into WOS – refreshing pages results in a frozen dark background on front page – damn these DOS attacks – if this post even gets through. 🙁

    69. R. Duncan says:

      TJenny

      scared me so much am off for a wee lie down

    70. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “However, he is not representative of UKIP supporters at all (they seem much more centre-left)”

      This seems an odd assertion, SS.

    71. Barney Thomson says:

      Neil Craig at 2.11-

      What’s basis of the 30% cost/yield figure?

      Obviously, we cannot be precise as to what the overall cost/yield ratio of a Scottish Revenue Service would be but it is reasonable to assume that it would not be dissimilar to the current UK position.

      In 2013/14, net HMRC receipts were £488,578m.

      https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hmrc-tax-and-nics-receipts-for-the-uk

      For 2013/14, HMRC’s resource budget was £3,600m.

      http://www.accountancyage.com/aa/news/2277699/hmrc-budget-cut-5-in-spending-review

      This gives a cost to yield figure of 0.74%.

      What do you see changing which would increase this to 30%?

    72. scottish_skier says:

      This seems an odd assertion, SS.

      The polls speak for themselves Rev. A lot of UKIP voters are left economically. It’s just they don’t like non-British and/or the EU.

      BNP used to fill this role and are quite centrist to left economically; you just have to be white and British to enjoy that socialism. On the authoritarian-libertarian scale they are up there with Hitler though in terms of state control / dictatorial social policy.

      No doubt Farage started out as Mr Thatcherism Turbo (and still is inside), but just like UK parties, he seems to be flipping policy in the pursuit of power. He wants the working class vote as the rabid Tory Eurosceptics just aren’t enough, hence all the ‘man of the people’ stuff, dropping his flat tax etc and moving more left economically. At least that’s what he says.

      Neil – as a libertarian economically – best be worried about the high level of support for a big state amongst UKIP voters. That and up to 25% of them plan to vote for Scottish independence…

      Oh, and should ask himself ‘Would Farage / UKIP accept Lordships?’ If yes, then they/he can be bought like the rest of them.

      Oh, what’s this?

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27738940

      Seems they are for being bought…

    73. Rock says:

      scottish_skier,

      “Neil Craig is not a troll.”

      Apart from disrupting the threads here, you are achieving absolutely nothing with Neil Craig.

      Can you give it a rest please.

    74. Robert Peffers says:

      @TJenny says: “Eeek – I’m having probs getting into WOS – refreshing pages results in a frozen dark background on front page – damn these DOS attacks – if this post even gets through”.

      You wouldn’t, by any chance, be using Windows XP and/or an older version of IE, would you?

      I have that same problem with my old Netbook running Windows XP. Not though with my main desktop.

      The darkened page does sort itself out after a short wait, though. It does not seem to be anything to do with DOS attacks.

    75. Andrew says:

      Hi folks,

      I’m not trying to hijack this thread so apologies in advance if anyone is offended. But – any chance some of you kind people could repost this link on your Facebook or Twitter accounts to try and raise a wee bit of cash for the Yes Stirling campaign office?

      http://igg.me/at/Yes-Stirling-Office/x

      We’re still a wee bit short and your extraordinary generosity will make a difference as it has in the past for so many other similar worthy causes.

    76. scottish_skier says:

      Hi Rock.

      Like I said, Neil Craig ain’t a troll; he just disagrees with views on here.

      He’s giving his name (which I’d guess is his real one) and linking to his very extensive musings. Trolls don’t do that.

      I don’t debate with trolls, but I’m known to enjoy a spar with those of different views between polls.

    77. Rock says:

      scottish_skier,

      “Hi Rock.

      Like I said, Neil Craig ain’t a troll; he just disagrees with views on here.

      He’s giving his name (which I’d guess is his real one) and linking to his very extensive musings. Trolls don’t do that.

      I don’t debate with trolls, but I’m known to enjoy a spar with those of different views between polls.”

      It doesn’t matter whether Neil Craig is a troll or not. Are your debates with him achieving anything at all for a Yes vote?

      They are simply an irritation. If you want to spar with him, please don’t do it on WoS.

    78. Rock says:

      scottish_skier,

      Of course it is Stuart’s site, not mine, but I am not the only one who is fed up with Neil Craig’s posts. Many other posters have made requests not to feed him, troll or not.

    79. Alastair Seago aka zorbathejock says:

      Hammer the poor but continue to give unelected lords 300 pounds just for signing in.

    80. thoughtsofascot says:

      Well, He had a spectacular explosion in other thread when he was called out on comparing Alex Salmond to Hitler. It was glorious, but as others have said, when you come across someone who has a tendency to blow up when called out, debating with them is ultimately futile.

    81. Black Douglas says:

      Test 🙂 😯



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