The hope of the future
Posted on
September 14, 2013 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
This is a leaflet distributed to pupils at Ellon Academy in Aberdeenshire this week. It was put together by “the school’s Better Together team” as part of the lead-up to a mini-referendum this Tuesday and sent to us by a concerned parent.
Click the images to enlarge.
To be honest, we don’t even know where to start. We’re overwhelmed by despair. But we would quite like to know, given that the leaflet bears the official “Better Together” logo and one of its campaign graphics (and we know how strenuously BT protects its intellectual property), whether the No camp was involved with the creation of, or has in any way approved, these messages. Over to you, Blair McDougall.
Wow.
Stu:
Even if this is the students work and not BT; it is the duty of the school to scrutinize the material used surely !! As a parent I’d be going ‘ding dongs’ as these are out and out lies and will affect impressionable youngters.
Stu : A Taster of Mr Batemans latest on the BEEEEEEEEB – Its V/Good
“Better Together is now urging the BBC to end it’s automatic coverage of anything Johann Lamont and Jackie Baillie say. “They are supposed to exercise journalistic scrutiny and treat everybody the same and challenge what they are told. But with Labour they just broadcast without thought. It’s not good enough. We’re demanding BBC impartiality for all.”
link to derekbatemandotnet1.wordpress.com
Its been rumoured that the temp @ PacificQuay is on the rise.
My word. Main content aside, from the opening sentence; “As a member of the UK …” I thought it was a merger that extinguished Scotland as a matter of international law?
I hope they don’t teach creationism at this school. Do they know that the earth is not flat?
Did the Yes leaflet stick to the real World or did it revert to fiction as well?
I think just for once I might be willing to give BT the benefit of the doubt and guess that it must have been the work of the pupils. I’m not sure even McDougall’s mob would be so brazen as to make some of those claims – although they do repeatedly make the claim about the UK giving Scotland “huge influence” over the EU and UN (that huge influence goes by the name of William Hague, of course).
The ‘Better Together’ School Team can teach their older counterparts like Darling a thing or three it would appear. They certainly went for broke!
The material should have been looked at and moderated by ‘impartial staff’ where there was an obvious untruth or even dubious assertion. ( On both sides of the debate)
In schools & colleges however I have found , in my experience, a leaning towards labour so ‘impartial’ might be hoping for too much.
But it’s not good on the face of it.
@:0/
James Kelly says:
I know its so full of flaws but thats the point – even if its the case that the student sdoctore this – what about the schools role ? Scrutiny of material ?
Duty of care ?
I’m afraid that this ‘leaflet’ is nothing more than a gigantic slap in the face to the teachers at Ellon Academy. Why do I say this?
Well quite simple really. When I was at school everyone was encouraged to think for themselves and question things they didn’t understand. This leaflet does none of these.
All you get from this ‘leaflet’ is regurgitated lies and misinformation. Surely as pupils at school they would want to investigate and question statements from both sides of the ‘debate’ not just take as gospel everything coming out of Better Together HQ. What actually makes this leaflet worse is the simple fact that all the lies printed on the ‘leaflet’ are not even new lies but lies that have have been debunked month’s ago, not just by the YES campaign but actually by the world’s media itself!
Absolutely shocking. Heads should roll for this. Yesterday, Lanarkshire council was forced to remove 2 head teachers for allowing ‘Creationism’ to be taught at a school by a US church.
This is more serious.
Surely this must have been overseen by a teacher?
If so, you’d think he/she would encourage honesty, factuality and integrity.
Arbroath 1320 says
Well said – YES (Nationally) should be raising this at local levels.
Thought Mike Russell would have made a point of this (dont know) but it is going on all over the place.
I’d like to second Murray McCallum’s question – let’s see the Yes team’s material too.
As the leaflet says “Why would we want to give it all up”
Why would we want to give up
1/ Trident
2/The Bedroom Tax
3/Limited pocket money from Westminster
4/Cameron/Clegg/Ian Duncan Smith/William Hague/Lord Freud.
5/Illegal wars around the world.
6/The disasterous Universal Credit thats already cost an extra £2oo million quid.
7/HS2 estimated to have reach £80 billion quid.
8/The House of Lords of which each member receives £300.quid a day just for showing up.
9/The MP’s expenses debacle and their wage rises, when it suits them.
10/Their deliberate and concentrated attempts to destroy the NHS, and privatise every bloody thing thats worth saving under the sun.
Now tell me why would we want ot give all it up.
I’m loathe to comment on what may be the work of pupils but it would be interesting to know where the information was gleaned from ?
For most topics established references are used but the Referendum is an unique subject. Which raises a couple of issues. The old chestnut , our media coverage . Techniquely as quoted in the corner , “the Westminster parties has agreed further powers” They have also techniquely agreed ‘homes fit for heroes’ an NHS free at the point of need and The end of boom and bust ‘ but techniquely that’s only been over 60 years so techniquely correct.
WOW!!! I knew it would be bad… but this is DIRE!
17 ABSOLUTE LIES – AND PROVABLE TO BE LIES – & 8 MISDIRECTIONS AND HALF TRUTHS
We’re apparently not only subsidised by Westminster (oh wait… that’s our share of the national deficit… and its lower than the rest of the UK’s)… and subsidised by the EU for Fishing and Farming (oh wait… that’s our territorial waters that make up the most of europes fishing grounds… and aren’t our farmers getting the lowest subsidies in the EU at a bout 1/3 of Ireland)
I understand why the parent was RAGING!
Jimbo says: Surely this must have been overseen by a teacher? “If so, you’d think he/she would encourage honesty, factuality and integrity.”
Thats just the point theres no scrutiny over these wee side show referendums and they know they can get away with it. This SLAB /BT gerrymandering is going on with a significant section of impressionable voters.
If this was Zimbabwe every would be going mental about such manipulation !
The schools need to be watched !!! They are getting away with murder! over this.
YES will regret it if the do not counter in some way.
@Murray McCallum –
The earth IS flat. It must be. If it wasn’t, Jackie Baillie would’ve rolled away ages ago.
I teach in a Glasgow school. I’m very careful not to let pupils know my opinion on the vote. I don’t have any Yes stickers on my bike and I usually use a plain black or retroreflective Buff rather than the well known Saltire Buff when I go to work.
Surely this is a satirical Better Together poster? Surely?!
No?
Oh dear.
Just a wee thought here, but are wee looking at material being produced by future Labour councillors/MPs and MSPs?
If this is the case then I really despair about the future of any political debate in Scotland. The level of debate is at an all time low thanks to Better Together’s calls for a debate then running a mile every time a neutrally compered one is offered. Reading this guff just fills me full of despair think I’ll just go and jump off the top of Ben Nevis now!”
If anyone has access to the software used by colleges/unis to detect plagiarism, we might be able to source the statements used in this propaganda – they didn’t appear out of thin air.
One point to note – at least their flag is on this material, unlike their stalls.
How did some among our young people come to be so tragically bereft of hope, aspiration, self-respect and language skills?
Oh, how dreadful. But I expect the riposte from the Yes camp will be along in just a moment.
Sorry messed up with iPhone ,the point Iwas going to make was a lot of pupils background info is sourced from the Internet . So it comes back to what Better Together have been allowed to get away with , not factually correct but techniquely worded in such a way as to have a small tenuous link to whatever is being discussed.
Gordoz, I assume there has been teacher supervision but if we should be angry , it should be with our media who have let Better Together Campaign on slogans
@wee folding bike
Maybe it time you nailed your colours to the school mast.
I bet a few other teacher are doing just that, and influencing the next generation, I try and convince or at least get them thinking everyone I meet and speak to young or old, being pro-active is the only way we dont have the luxury, of the MSM.
Send a message to Colin MacKenzie, the chief executive of Aberdeenshire council. I went to school with one of his sons, and I know he’s reasonable man. These lies should not be allowed in a school
Time for an enterprising pupil to open a book offering odds on the Uk requiring an IMF bailout in next 5 years
Why not go the whole hog and say everyone will get a free iPad for Christmas if we vote NO?
Somebody needs to get the big red pen out to correct this work. Maybe a wee “See Me” and “check your sources”.
jeez you would think they
would have been studying for higher lies that leaflet rates at foundation level at best
Scraping the bottom of the barrel.
link to quotes.post1.org
If a teacher is involved they should be sacked unless they allowed similar lies on the YES side. Very hard to match that though.
At least we know what they will be saying next year.
At the risk of being repetitive from a previous thread [At Battle Mountain] this is the outline of the pupils bulletin for Ellon Academy S6 pupils. While I fully understand the upset of the concerned parent and the somewhat amateurish leaflet from the Better Together proponents in the school, you have to acknowledge that both sides of the argument have been given carte blanche.
I agree in the exuberance of youth of such an emotive topic its easy to design a flyer that makes the blood boil. However, like all good debates its up to the other side to do their bit to disprove the lies and prove their cause.
Schools Scottish Independence Referendum
This morning, you have received two leaflets – one from the school’s Yes Scotland campaign team and the other from the school’s Better Together team. Please take the time to read the information as you consider which way you intend to vote in the referendum. The school’s referendum will take place on Tuesday 17th September from 9am to 3pm. At registration on the day, you will each receive a polling card. Your teacher will tell you when you are able to go and vote. Voting is in the library and room 101. S6 pupils can vote at any time during the day. Voting is not compulsory. If you want to get involved with either of the campaigns between now and the 17th, the Yes Scotland and Better Together teams alternate day about between rooms 101 and 105 at lunchtimes. Mr XXXXXXX
megsmaw06 says
“Somebody needs to get the big red pen out to correct this work. Maybe a wee “See Me” and “check your sources”.
I’m thinking more along the lines of Saturday detention megsmaw for persistent lying in class! 😆
I notice it’s already been checked by someone, the word ‘relaible’ has been highlighted. Someone checked the spelling, but not the content.
WTF do they teach the pupils in Aberdeenshire, the home of the oil capital of Europe?
This is an absolutely astonishing leaflet.
I can’t believe that the young people of Ellon are so bereft of ambition and are either willing to produce and/or believe this propaganda.
At least there is still a year to go to counter this sh*te.
Would concerned emails to the school from a former Englander now living overseas be helpful?
Archie [not Erchie]
However, like all good debates its up to the other side to do their bit to disprove the lies and prove their cause.
Well said Archie.
O/T Rev. I do apologise.
The UK labour party has slapped down claims by Jackie Baillie, that they will abolish the bedroom tax if they gain power, so much for Anas Anwars outlandish claim.
link to newsnetscotland.com
ot.
Watching the Triathlon World Championships on BBC. The ‘GB’ strip seems to be a St.Georges cross. The Welsh girl that looks like winning will be happy.
Good grief that leaflet is wrong on so many levels as to be the work of Goebals himself. Free prescriptions? Free Tuition? Whose policies are these?
Debt, Scotland would as a successor nation take debt but if it is not a successor nation then there is no share of the debt. If a successor nation then all the bull about the UN and the EU is just that, complete bullshit.
However, as lying is second nature to Better Together I can believe they had a hand in this. Good! This is the perfect material to both refute and satirise. It is hardly difficult to rip to pieces and it could make for a very entertaining read for the students.
Children of School age are about the only demographic which better together have some hope of temporarily winning over.
It’s actually quite sad really, the thought of Alastair Darling being filled with hope, beaming at a room full of 16 year olds going ‘Aye, the union’s cool and that (can we go now – it’s break time?)’.
Unfortunately for them, most of this group won’t be voting next year as they’ll be too young or too busy out drinking cider in the woods behind the park.
Even if all 16-17 year olds voted it still wouldn’t impact the result to any measurable extent; too small in number and polls suggest it’s fairly even anyway.
The extension of the vote to 16-17 yr olds was in part a red herring. The SNP support lowering the voting age in general (as a social democratic liberal party), but in this instance it was done to send BT off on a wild goose chase. They have duly gone out in search of said wild goose.
I have noted that BT ‘footsoldiers’ have a significant component of very young ‘youth reps’. No offence to young ones, but an adult is highly unlikely to take advice on e.g. Scotland’s status in the EU from someone of that age.
Oh, and the McCrone report is generally all that’s needed for young ones. I’ve found that simple story has nearly a 100% success rate on the student ‘hadn’t given it much thought’ age group (we take on a number of recent graduates regularly).
Surely this latest gaff from Baillie proves that there is no leadership of the Labour Party this side of the border.Every labour MSP appears to have carte blanche with respect to policy and able to make it up as they go along.
Lamont the high heed yin in Scotland must go!She has failed to exert any control on her ‘Dream Team’ and has not produced any policy material since she became responsible for her party in Scotland.
We though J. McConnell was bad, then we had Mr Gray who was one sausage roll short of a picnic and now the silence of the Lamond.Seriously the MSM in Scotland are obliged to scrutinise the situation and bring this state of affairs to the public notice.There are good hard working and no-working citizens in Scotland who still look to Labour for a lead. They deserve better….OH Wait.
I think Mrs Lamont just said the same thing a few days ago.
Come on guys, this is S6 children putting together a project, not a bunch of professional journalists! Almost all the statements on the leaflet can be sourced from BT or the media – and in fact they don’t much differ from what BT is saying on a day-to-day basis. So I say hats off to the pupils responsible – they have gone to the obvious sources, assembled the propaganda and produced their leaflet. No doubt there is a similar group putting together a Yes leaflet.
It’s a bit much to expect S6 students to go beyond the primary source for what is a mock referendum. Maybe, in good advanced higher history classes, students are asked to question the trustworthiness of their sources, but even then, I doubt it’s usual practice…
Let’s just hope that the Yes group at Ellon is putting in a similar effort. Meanwhile, I suggest we save our wrath for those who are supposed to earn their pay by seeking out untruths*
*Extract from NUJ code of conduct:
A journalist…..
2Strives to ensure that information disseminated
is honestly conveyed, accurate and fair.
3 Does her/his utmost to correct harmful
inaccuracies.
4 Differentiates between fact and opinion.
Juteman says
ot.Watching the Triathlon World Championships on BBC. The ‘GB’ strip seems to be a St.Georges cross. The Welsh girl that looks like winning will be happy.
I thought the same at first, but on closer examination, it seems they’ve taken the central piece of the Union flag so it shows tiny smidgeons of blue, but you can only see them when you’re up close.
Come to think of it, that clause 2 from the NUJ code of conduct, isn’t a bad weapon to use when questioning certain of our less-than-honest scribblers. They are all likely to be members of the NUJ, and although that particular union has long been something of a busted flush, IMO, their code of conduct ought to mean something, even to the more reptilian of their members….
Better Together spent most of last year decrying the whole idea of giving 16-17 year olds the vote because, they said, they’re too stupid and too easily led – to open to manipulation and propaganda. The proof they still believe this is in that manipulative propaganda they’re spreading round the kids. And yes, they do have a high number of youth reps. I suspect a lot of that is to do with the fact the NO side seems to be the more powerful, bullying side. Most kids tend to gravitate to that side with relish.
But most young people are not actually stupid, and don’t take well to being lied to and manipulated, especially by politicians. And one big issue for Better Together is that their tactic has been to imply a lot of things, eg we’ll be kicked out of the EU, won’t be able to use the pound, we’re too wee, too poor, too stupid etc, while strongly denying they’re actually saying these things. Or at least, their leaders deny they’re saying these things. But their leaders will be skewered on that next year when all their young, manipulated or older and plain dumb foot soldiers are going round repeating those things as fact. The question then will be whether a majority of Scots are stupid enough to believe those things are fact, or whether they’ve looked even marginally below the surface to see they’ve been debunked massively.
Sounds to me that this could have been a Modern Studies teacher who has lost control.
Part of their coursework involves government and this could be part of some kind of class debate but the question needs asking.
1. Was this leaflet produced by a class as part of a debate and distributed within that class and then a wee vote YES/NO – period bell rings – finish and this was something left over from that produced by the NO kids – but not for wider consumption beyond that single class. This is one left over and taken home by a kid. You would have to assume that there would be YES equivalents.
OR
2. There there has been some kind of debate and vote involving year groups in say the school hall with these leaflets being distributed to the kids on the day before or during the event. Again this has gone home and a parent has seen it. Again you would have to assume that there would be YES equivalents.
OR
3. More worryingly this kind of think was produced as part of a year group debate and and because the teacher did not keep a grip on the distribution they were spread far and wide within the school and this is just one example, reaching children not involved in Modern Studies. Or a No kid with wealthy Unionist parents involved in this has got dozens run off at daddies office for free and blitzed the school with them and this is one. This is where the control by the teacher could have been lost because the advantage in the exercise and the brainwashing opportunity would then be handed to the NO group.
Whatever has happened I cannot believe that a Headteacher would be so dumb as to be behind this to the extent that this pish was part of some kind of formal communication between the parents and the school. They would know their arses would be on fire for that. It is a disciplinary job / their head would roll. More likely to be a 1,2 or 3 above.
gordoz says: at 12.15
Very relevant article in Herald’s Scottish Review of Books by George McKechnie on Nationalism and the BBC which focuses on the Scottish Regional Director David Cleghorn Thomson who was forced out of the BBC in 1932 by London BBC Governors due to his alleged sympathies with Scottish nationalism.
After the recent antics of Sarwar, Lamont and Baillie, along with this rubbish aimed at teenagers, it seems that it is ‘maintain the union at all costs‘ time. Desperate stuff indeed.
The leaflet is so outrageous some Bters might think our side did it….or would they 🙂
The BBC seem to be putting JB on the spot and referring back to Sarwar too. It would seem confusion reigns….just when it looked like Labour had, after 3 and half years, got itself a policy.
These are school kids. Laziness is more probably the cause than malice. They no doubt looked up what Better Together are saying and took it at face value. Besides, they’ll see it as a school competition and they won’t win by telling the truth about everything.
Rooster
A lesson Jackie seems to have taken well on board 😉
Andy-B
No, I can’t do that. I’m no Jean Brodie. I think it would be complely inappropriate for me to influence them either way. I’m happy to encourage them to think about it. I’m happy to give them information. I’m happy to correct their misconceptions.
Turning up every day on a bike is as influential as I’m comfortable with. I hope they notice it and consider how their choices impact on their health, wealth and environment.
@ Kininvie –Maybe, in good advanced higher history classes, students are asked to question the trustworthiness of their sources, but even then, I doubt it’s usual practice…
Well it will be interesting to read the results of the mock mini-referendum at Ellon Academy and whether or not the dubious flyers had an impact on the vote.
As an aside I think its totally unfair on this well respected site to suggest that the teachers of the said Academy are somehow deceiving or misleading their pupils while giving them all opportunities to research and form their own opinions. This is what our own SG wanted to do, to get our young folk involved, and able to vote from a position of certainty.
Sorry O/T but a very amusing take on famous Scottish historical sacrifices at link to derekbatemandotnet1.wordpress.com
o/t just seen an article in the Guardian, was just checking the footie scores, honest, the deputy mayor has said that Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland should spend their tourism money on promoting ….London.
Sorry no link, I don’t know how….sorry.
CHC
@ Kininvie – sorry my ‘aside’ was not directed at your post. It was a general observation. Just wanted to clear that with you.
Archie (not Erchie)
Fine, read it as such. Nae prob.
I wouldn’t get too worked up about this, even if it does look like one of the professionally-produced anti-devolution leaflets from 1979.
In school debates (like other formal/training debates) pupils often have to argue against their own personal opinions, and produce material that they don’t necessarily agree with themselves, taking info from whatever sources are available. I remember conducting a classroom poll in Modern Studies about nuclear weapons that would certainly not have met anyone’s standards of impartiality or accuracy (no weighting, lol), but nobody accused me of bias or spreading misinformation on the subject through my push-polling. ‘Cos I was a schoolkid.
If the Yes side are any good they will be able to take that leaflet apart line by line (though they should concentrate on the free tuition fees claim, given the target audience).
I hate the leaflet, but I’d need to know more before I could get worked up about somebody’s schoolwork. If the Nos win the mock referendum it will of course be reported far and wide as if it was a major news story, but that’s not the kids’ fault, whatever side they are on..
castle hills chavie
London, and particularly the City, is a ‘national benefit’. To do anything other than to continue subsidising it, might undermine the sustainability of this ‘natural order’.
Re. SLAB’s apparent confusion over the Bedroom Tax, while it’s always easy to put their antics down to doltish incoherence, I wonder if this is their version of a cunning plan? They dribble out half-assurances about abolishing the tax helpfully disseminated by the Scottish MSM, meanwhile London Labour issues qualifications and denials which will barely register with the average Scottish voter. SLABbers believe they have to keep pretending they’re a genuine, democratic left wing party only until 18/09/14, after that it’ll just be a matter of time until they’re re-instated to their position as the natural rulers of North Britain.
I remember as a high school kid being aware of teacher political / social bias. Especially the case in history / modern studies:
History 1: Member of Republican Socialist League. Openly claimed in class that his phone was tapped by MI5. His girlfriend’s grandfather (a member of the IRA) was hung by the British.
History 2: Member of SNP. I played my bagpipes with him at an SNP rally in the mid 1970s. As well as being a very good piper I remember him most for always being very serious.
Modern Studies 1: A retired [very] English tank regiment major from WW2 (took part in D Day). He would not call a girl by her name – all were referred to as “Gerty”. Also had the audacity to cut a cricket crease in the middle of a football pitch!
Fact is we laughed at them all (sorry teachers reading this). Maybe us oldies have to step back and let the kids battle it out for themselves.
If I worried about kids laughing I’d need to get a different job.
When there is ice I leave the folding bike at home and use a two wheel drive Longstaff tricycle with winter spike tyres.
On topic, wasn’t the Union dividend of free tuition fees brought up by a youngster in the last Scottish Question Time (the one with Nigel Farage)? It’s understandably a subject that has some traction with teenagers, weird that it should be seen as something secured by staying in the UK.
I’m sorry: “as and when we are financially and socially prepared to accept them”??
So when Westminster thinks we’re grown up enough to take responsibility for ourselves? The nerve of these people.
While we are on the subject of confused youngsters, I came across this little snippet of info about the SLAB shortlist for the Dunfermline by-election on Political Betting:
Dunfermline Labour shortlist is
Cara Hilton (Dunfermline South Cllr, daughter of former Falkirk East MSP Cathy Peattie, works for Dunfermline MP Thomas Docharty)
Fiona Yates (daughter of Cowdenbeath MSP Helen Eadie and wife of a Kirkaldy Cllr)
Lesley Laird (Fife Cllr, daughter of former STUC chairman John Langan)
I wonder if Johann Lamont, Anus Sarwar or Paul Martin have any comment to make about such blatant nepotism.
Cant seem to find this story online in the Daily Record but its definitely in the paper version.
Nick Clegg faces a lobbying row after the Lib/Dems sold access to ministers at their annual conference.
Lobbyists and their big businees clients who want to sway the government can pay £960 quid per head,to join round table policy talks, on what is known as “Corporate Day”.
They can also fork out an extra £420 quid to attend a dinner with senior party members, both events include drinks to a reception hosted by Vince Cable.
Clegg who has publically stood against lobbying has shown his true colours
The Campaign for Lobbying Transparency, has called it access for cash on a grand scale.
This just cannot be acceptable and should be stomped on quickly by the SG and give a serious rebuke for the teachers who sanctioned this. They should be sacked in my opinion.
A school project on any other subject that was so lacking in accuracy, let alone intellectual rigour, would be sent back for re-working.
It’s clearly a cut-and-paste job. Unfortunately, they’ve cut and pasted it from the UKOK website.
I wonder what they think of the University fees in England
and if they’d think we were all Better Together if we (they) had
them too…
In the recent past I have attended two debates on the Referendum, one on defence between Angus Robertson and Jim Murphy, and the other to the Edinburgh Property Professionals Group featuring Dan Macdonald and Blair Macdougall.
Before the latter meeting I saw Blair in a coffee shop discussing his proposed presentation with a colleague.
In both cases the YES proponents went to great lengths to prepare their cases. The BT representatives flew by the seat of their pants. There was no evidence that any meaningful preparation had been made. Indeed Jim Murphy had the audacity to admit the fact.
Such lack of respect for their audience by the BT campaigners must surely be exposed.
Let’s be frank about this School project leaflet, “It’s shyte”; but then again it does typify the Better Together campaign.
This is clearly black propaganda. So who are influencing the pupils in this way? It reflects badly on Ellon Academy that pupils are being encouraged to vote on this basis. It is simply dishonest.
Linda’s Back says:
didn’t know that
cheers
I suppose it really depends on context. Is this a leaflet produced by one side in a school project carrying out their own debate or is it a project in which they were tasked to produce a leaflet which encapsulated the mis-truths and propaganda of the campaign so far?
If it is the latter then they have produced a piece of BBC Scotlandshire style satire and good on them. If it was a leaflet to support a No side in a straight school debate it is a tad worrying that they didn’t get a little more guidance on accuracy of claims and coherence of argument………what the feck am I saying? Sarwar pulled the same stunt last week.
Nice to see Ms Baillie getting slapped down by her own side !!
There is hope
link to facebook.com
Bwahahahaha. Looks as if the kids have it in hand.
I teach college students, and sometimes have to take out my own university lab books to remind myself not to expect the learning and understanding of a 30-year-old from them. I was crap when I was 18 too.
It’s a terrible leaflet, but there are obviously people there who are absolutely fit for them.
Just sit em down on monday let watch Braveheart should balance it out!
Meanwhile Derek Bateman continues his comment on the Beeb with his latest post “Better Together Takes on the Beeb” It is a hoot.
This is likely, purely the work of students. When I was at school in the run up to the devolution referendum we had a mock referendum in school. Students from the school debating club choose sides and we had our debates, we all made our case and then we all voted. It was a really good way for students to explore the processes of debate and democracy.
Given the amount of hype and nonsense being put out by both sides. And the media in particular. It’s not surprising some students might be taken in by the propaganda and reproduce it verbatim. That is part of the learning process. You copy, you scrutinise, you begin to form your own opinion and then begin to understand. It would be nice if scrutiny came first. But that’s not how primates learn. And we really are just naked apes. Monkey see, monkey do.
The plus point of this leaflet is we have a barometer of just how well informed our young people who will have the chance to vote really are. We have an idea of the level of understanding there is about the vital issues. At least those issues perceived to be vital. If the teachers get too involved and say “you can’t say that or this or that thing” then something is lost from the process. The teachers need to be neutral and allow the kids to go through that process of forming an opinion.
The Yes Campaign has been pretty good at getting grass roots activists motivated and turning up to public events. But how involved has it been with the kids who will be voting? I ask this question because I have no idea. Engaging with these young people is something both sides need to do in a positive way. We need to give them all the information in a format they can understand and digest. And frankly I don’t really see that happening out in the open.
I suppose the last thing I’d say about this is it really shows the level of intellect the Bitter Together camp are operating on. I’m having a really hard time drawing any distinction between this leaflet and their official material. In fact it kinda looks better.
gillie.
Nice one.
well all I can say is if you are thinking of going into further education, and if you are thinking of voting no then you better check with your mum and dad to see if they can give you the £9000 per year to go or be sensible and vote yes and you education will be free in Scotland not like England so it`s your chose ???
At the YesAberdeen stall today (which went very fucking well, incidentally), we had a girl come up to us with her mother asking if they could get a few of our leaflets to help with her school work. We also had a modern studies teacher take a few things for his class as well. (They would probably have liked some BetterTogether stuff too, but despite a rumour that they would be having a stall this weekend, they weren’t there.)
But anyway, the point is the kids are using official leaflets etc to make up their own stuff. That’s exactly as you would expect. But it’s interesting to see how the authors of this leaflet have interpreted the information they’ve gotten. It’s pretty hard to deny that even the most blatant lies aren’t rooted in things BetterTogether have been saying – all the lies about the EU stem from the dishonest premise that Scotland won’t be in the EU, for instance.
So even if they didn’t write this leaflet directly, it’s plain to see that their propaganda and misinformation is having the effect they desire. Well, on schoolkids, anyway.
Re Jackie Baillie, in her previous role as Shadow Health her lies went unchallenged by the Labour Party as Health is devolved and as such didn’t cause the Westminster party any problems however Welfare etc. isn’t devolved so if she comments or rather lies about it then there are implications for the Westminster party as it is then assumed to be party policy. Johann should have realised that this position was not best suited to such a prolific liar as Ms Baillie.
I’m a pupil at Ellon Academy, and i’m sad to tell you that a lot of people are actually listening to this leaflet. This leaflet was created by senior students for other students, but i’m not sure whether it’s been read over by anyone else (Obviously debatable.) The pupils have become very opinionated over independence over the past few days, and it’s sad to see a lot of them actually believe this.
The Yes leaflet was along the same lines, although i’m not certain of it’s numerical accuracy or if it was as horrifically inaccurate as this one.
O/T
A French designer is considering suing the UK government, claiming it used his work without payment on vans telling illegal immigrants to “go home”.
Fabien Delage said he was in touch with the Home Office over the use of his font on the mobile billboards.
The Home Office said it was trying to contact the copyright owner to reach an agreement.
The Advertising Standards Authority is investigating the scheme, piloted in London, whose critics included Liberty.
link to bbc.co.uk
Is it really Derek writing that blog? The posts are entertaining, laugh out loud funny in places, but the writer isn’t shooting and missing.
I miss Newsweek, it was best thing the BBC did
Why have the kids not used the UKOK banner? As the arguments are all 2P2W2S and the UK is hardly mentioned is it because they know the UK is not OK?
Err….wasn’t the free further education something to do with the SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT??
Oh wow, Derek Bateman’s blog just gets better and better.
“When you consider the sacrifices made at Flodden and the heroics of Scots at Bannockburn, it’s wrong to omit the Subway Scandal from the hall of fame,” said a spokesman. “If we can re-enact Bannockburn to please the Nats, surely Iain’s unflinching retreat in the face a highly organised ambush deserves the same respect.”
link to derekbatemandotnet1.wordpress.com
@Peter Bell
How did some among our young people come to be so tragically bereft of hope, aspiration, self-respect and language skills?
I would not blame it on the young people. Conditioning has been going on for a long time in Scotland. It has suited the purpose of an influential group of people to talk down Scotland’s potential. I suspect that this kind of an attitude has seeped down over the years. It may even be some of their parents who are still doing it. SLAB in particular controlled Scotland for a long time, and the effects on the Scottish psyche of their negativity towards self-government will take some time yet to heal itself. We just have to try and reach as many people as possible over the next year, and convince them that Scotland has massive potential.
Scottish schools are probably getting into this.
link to news.stv.tv
Yup! Bateman has his own style, entertaining and adeptly skewering Labour / BBC & BT .
With Baillie etal queuing up to stick their foot in their mouth there will be plenty to blog about.
Looks to me from the “Ellon Academy Says Yes” Facebook page that the pro-indy pupils will be more than a match for the other side. That’s encouraging.
Re Derek Bateman – I bet his Labour ex-colleagues are quaking at whatever he might come out with next! A welcome addition to the online indy movement.
@ Doug
Tweeting Bateman as hard as I can…looks as though Scotlandshire has a competitor on the satire front.
‘The BBC said there had been no change of policy. “We have always treated Labour with more respect than they deserved and have given them more favourable coverage than the others and we have no plans to change now,” he said. “Consistency is our watchword in turbulent times.”
Thumbs up. I have only quoted a little part this time Rev Stu.
Doug Daniel
How well did it go today? I know children do not generally grow up in a protective bubble, but really? Do you feel more like ‘one of the peeple’ now?
I can imagine him singing this in the canteen.
I have in the past faced, with a coursework task just handed in any old shite hurridly put togeather because it’s better to do that than miss the deadline. I’ve also advised my daughter that it’s best to submit work of a quality you arn’t sure of rather than not submit at all.
What does one do I wonder, faced with the dirth of actual positive information and unable to source a good case yet have the task of preparing a leaflet to a deadline.
Remember also in these cases it may simply be the case of “Those of you to the left of the class will be supporting a No vote, those on the right a yes one”
Common practice in debating class to have to argue against your own beliefs and it’s very useful for seeing both the flaws in your own arguments and those of your opponents.
Someone will be despatched from Millbank with orders to give Baillie a good kick up the arse. The lucky soul had better hope she farts and gives them a clue.
Cameron – put it this way, if I was basing a prediction of the referendum outcome purely on the response of Aberdeen shoppers today, I’d state with total confidence that it would be a Yes vote. The number of “sorry, I’ll be voting no” types were outnumbered by the numbers we had signing the yes declaration, and nobody who took a leaflet dropped it on the ground or put it in the bin (which is more than can be said for the folk nearby handing out leaflets about Jesus…) That might seem like a little thing, but having handed out flyers for things before, it seemed remarkable to not see a single one lying on the ground at the end.
In fact, so buoyed am I by the response, I’ve decided to do the door canvassing tomorrow as well!
Doug Daniel
Thanks. 🙂
@ Doug Daniel
As the Rev and others have said before there are hardliners who are stuck in the no mode no matter what they are shown and thanks for doing the groundwork for Scotland.
This smacks of the interference of some “better together” zealot masquerading as a “teacher”. It is highly likely that this document was sanctioned by the school in order to inflict the untruths of this misguided bunch for their own ends.
@ Ianbrotherhood
“Someone will be despatched from Millbank with orders to give Baillie a good kick up the arse. The lucky soul had better hope she farts and gives them a clue.”
… that was a beauty!! 😉
It conjures up visions of anti-chemical warfare kit and a breathing mask.
@Midgehunter-
I’m given to believe that it’s a popular joke with midwives.
@ Ryan – Thanks for your input Ryan from Ellon Academy and I do hope you will keep this forum informed about the result on Tuesday 17th September. As Nicola Sturgeon [Deputy First Minister] and others put it, this will be a passionate debate and rightly so. Keep up the good work and believe me you are not alone.
I think Ryan’s post might have been a bit overlooked, perhaps because of a moderation delay, it being the first post he’s made here. I’ll re-post it to make sure people see it.
Ryan said:
I’m a pupil at Ellon Academy, and i’m sad to tell you that a lot of people are actually listening to this leaflet. This leaflet was created by senior students for other students, but i’m not sure whether it’s been read over by anyone else (Obviously debatable.) The pupils have become very opinionated over independence over the past few days, and it’s sad to see a lot of them actually believe this.
The Yes leaflet was along the same lines, although i’m not certain of it’s numerical accuracy or if it was as horrifically inaccurate as this one.
I think there have to be two sides to this, so if the Yes side are able to explain that free university places and prescriptions and so on are actually things we’re lucky to have because Holyrood has prioritised them, that will be positive.
The scary thing about all this is that Holyrood can only do so much with the limited amount of money Westminster gives us. This is being cut and cut, and there are ways within the union for Westminster to force Holyrood’s hand and make us impose tuition fees and privatise the health service. On the other hand, if we have control over our own money, Holyrood can’t be forced to do that.
Everything that leaflet says seems to be founded on the idea that we aren’t rich enough to have these things without getting money from England. The opposite is true. We have enough money to do all that and more. We’re a richer country than most people have any idea about. The only way to get to keep our own money to spend on universities or hospitals or any other damn thing is to vote Yes.
@ Morag – Thanks for picking up on Ryans post. Well done to you and lets hope we hear from him again
That is batshit crazy.
There is no way the kids came up with that themselves. Someone in the area please investigate it further!
@Steve McKay
On it !!
Ryan can do his bit by pointing as many pupils and parents as possible to sites like this.
Stay positive, Ryan, and I’m convinced we will get the correct result next year.
This site is now on the Ellon Academy YES Facebook so thats a start. it went up 20 odd likes just today
I will be speaking to the local YES coordinator very soon and I think Tuesday might give them something to think about from what I’m hearing. Mmmmmm
I think the yes campaign could be seriously damaged if they take issue with this. It’s a school debate ffs. Certainly the school might want to pull them up about their spelling and grammar mistakes (or maybe it’s the school that should be pulled up) but provided it was their own work and not made up for them by someone else then they are entitled to present this as their work. As someone said it is up to the ‘opposition’ to debunk the rubbish contained in it. If I was the creator of this I would be a proud schoolboy/girl that generated such interest. Let’s see the yes groups contribution! What it does reflect is the impact that BT are having in propagating their tripe.
What…the…fuck…?
That as well. 😉
@Wee folding bike: No, I can’t do that. I’m no Jean Brodie. I think it would be complely inappropriate for me to influence them either way. I’m happy to encourage them to think about it. I’m happy to give them information. I’m happy to correct their misconceptions.
Turning up every day on a bike is as influential as I’m comfortable with. I hope they notice it and consider how their choices impact on their health, wealth and environment.
That’s the absolute best thing you can do. Encouraging them to think, give them information (or even better, give them the means to find this information themselves), correct misconceptions, all without actually stating your own opinion. You don’t need to be a Jean Brodie (not least because Brodie was, ahem, not right in the heid), you just need to instill in them the desire and resolve to find out the truth.
@BillyBigbaws: In school debates (like other formal/training debates) pupils often have to argue against their own personal opinions, and produce material that they don’t necessarily agree with themselves, taking info from whatever sources are available. I remember conducting a classroom poll in Modern Studies about nuclear weapons that would certainly not have met anyone’s standards of impartiality or accuracy (no weighting, lol), but nobody accused me of bias or spreading misinformation on the subject through my push-polling. ‘Cos I was a schoolkid.
Of course, the difference is that there is a (meagre and continually diminishing) case to be made for nuclear weapons. There is no case for the union.
@Stewart:I’m sorry: “as and when we are financially and socially prepared to accept them”??
THAT is what really leapt out at me. “You aren’t READY for independence, you aren’t smart/grown up/responsible enough.” Just another way of saying Too Wee, Too Poor, Too Stupid – though at least this time there’s the suggestion that we might be ready someday. I just have to ask: when WILL we be “ready”? What has to change? What financial and social responsibilities will we have to change accordingly?
@muttley79: I would not blame it on the young people. Conditioning has been going on for a long time in Scotland. It has suited the purpose of an influential group of people to talk down Scotland’s potential. I suspect that this kind of an attitude has seeped down over the years. It may even be some of their parents who are still doing it.
Absolutely. After the devastation of our industries, the misappropriation of our wealth and the suppression of the true value of our resources, the Scottish people are suffering a truly breathtaking inferiority complex – one that’s not only exacerbated, but actively promoted by the state.
@Ryan:The Yes leaflet was along the same lines, although i’m not certain of it’s numerical accuracy or if it was as horrifically inaccurate as this one.
Ryan, do you happen to know if the leaflet’s online anywhere? I’d love to see it, and I’m sure everyone here would too.
As an aside, my cousin (the one who’s doing a wee piece on the referendum) asked me, with all honesty and fear based on what people have told him at school: “will we kick out immigrants if Scotland becomes independent”? I was so dumbfounded I couldn’t immediately reply, except to ask where he heard it. “Some of the kids at school.” Where did THEY hear it? “They didn’t say, they just heard it.” So I pointed to the foreign-born Yes supporters I know (including politicians) and contrasted it with the Hate Van and the current UK government’s policies of social cleansing. My cousin’s a sensitive soul, and we have many immigrants in our family & circle of friends, so he was upset when presented this information (as am I, I am FURIOUS at the implication I support a movement which aims to kick my aunt & several of our friends out of the country.) I just had to wonder where on earth our children are getting these hurtful misconceptions.
“Someone will be despatched from Millbank with orders to give Baillie a good kick up the arse. The lucky soul had better hope she farts and gives them a clue.”
Presumably because a more material ejecta would still leave room for ambiguity.
Well done Morag on picking up Ryan’s comment. Hope he takes the info. back to school and encourages more youngsters to find the truth.
Surely the biggest lie is ‘Keeping Calm Since 1707’?
‘Calm’ is not exactly the first word that comes to mind when trying to describe the last three hundred years of British history, is it?
Naa,
Its really no worries there.
My own town will now almost certainly be voting Yes.
It will be a hard slog but we will get there!
BT might not like it but the truth and organisation wins the day.
I am now working with people I didnt get on particularly well with, from other parties, and people I felt didnt like me at all, but we our going to win Yes in our town.
?
Now for all you’s saying its lies, we got this information through proper research and yes I have my criticisms as well, I am NOT insulting my school or my friends. A lot of you people are grown adults! Can’t you imagine that the whole of the better together team (consisting of people with an age range 11-18) will be reading your harsh comments?? Think of how crushing it would be for a child to get hate for something they may be so proud of?? Rethink what your saying please and try not to Insult my friends or my school.
“we got this information through proper research”
Well, no, Sam, you didn’t, because by definition if you’d got it through PROPER research it wouldn’t be such complete bollocks.
1. Nobody knows what an independent Scotland’s inherited debt would be. Analyses of varying plausibility have suggested anywhere from zero to £270bn.
2. Scotland cannot, under ANY circumstances, be forced to join the Euro. We’ve explained in detail why on numerous occasions.
3. Free prescriptions are a function of the Scottish Parliament, nothing to do with the UK. People in England don’t get them. They are ONLY at risk if we stay in the UK, with all three parties of the Union opposed to them.
4. We would not be “giving up” trade with England in the event of independence. Why on Earth would we?
5. Your assertions about devolution are simply complete rubbish. You claim it enables us to take on more powers when we ask for them. Yet in 2011 Scotland elected a government with a clear manifesto mandate to ask for several specific powers to be devolved to Scotland. The Scottish Government duly asked for them, and was unceremoniously told to get stuffed.
link to scotsman.com
Etc etc.
Your “research” seems to have comprised copying things direct from Better Together leaflets, like the lines about the Euro rebate and the embassies and consulates and the ridiculous “roadsign” graphic. Don’t be surprised when people therefore dismiss it as partisan cobblers. Age is no excuse for doing a bad job.
My son was the team leader in his school debate (when in third year last year) for the Yes side and he said that the no side were very confident and loud until it got to the debate and then their rubbish was torn to shreds, one of the arguments put from the no team was “my dad says if we get Independence we would have to move to England as he works there”………my son said “That sounds a tad ridiculous but you can explain why would that be…?” and guess what, the person hadn’t the slightest idea why.
He also caught them out by ‘asking for a positive case for the union’ getting nothing for that one whilst he and his team had positive cases for Independence, and said that the class began to laugh when the better together team said we would be a ‘new country’ so not in the EU and yet we would inherit the ‘old debts’ of the uk…..he said it took ‘about two minutes’ for most of the class to see that this was not possible, it had to be one or the other…………so hope yet!
He also used ‘a lot of humour’ directed at the other side……sound familiar?
“Rethink what your saying please and try not to Insult my friends or my school.”
A bit arrogant to believe you solely represent the views of your school little kid.
you do know that a parent was concerned about what is palpable nonsense in the silly pamphlet, you do know that ‘free’ tuition fees are courtesy of the Scottish parliament and NOT provided by westminster for England and Wales for instance?
Come back in a few hours and my son can directly respond to you about the difference between ‘research’ and copying ridiculous claims from the no campaign because he and a few of his pals know that one- he is coming up for fifteen but being a normal real kid he is in bed the now and I could give him a shout but reckon it can wait!
Was just rereading the words of the ‘unionist kid’ who gets up at 9 on a non school day to read Wings Over Scotland.
I think either his English teacher needs his ass kicked for the atrocious grammar he displayed or it is some weird adult parodying a text message in the manner they believe a 6th former would write. ha
Sam says:
15 September, 2013 at 9:54 am
‘Now for all you’s saying its lies, we got this information through proper research’
I doubt first that you are a pupil or even a ‘child’, But in the supposition that you are, Doubt strongly that ANY proper research was done. In any school based debate, the teachers assist and guide the research. Clearly this hasn’t happened
Sam
I was the head janitor for 14 years in a large secondary school and believe you me , our senior pupils would have been embarrassed to have put out a leaflet like that due to it having so many lies and half truths .
“our senior pupils would have been embarrassed to have put out a leaflet like that due to it having so many lies and half truths .”
Never mind all the spelling mistakes. Jeez.
In fairness, the Yes one is also a total mess, but at least it’s not full of flat-out lies.
This leaflet is very accurate in that it truly reflects the wider NoScotland campaign. They really do want Scots to enter the polling booths next September believing a load of lies.
It really is disgusting.
You’s is often used in Glasgow . Normally on a card for say a Wedding it doesn’t say congratulations to yous, that would be you
is there a link to the Yes leaflet?
“is there a link to the Yes leaflet?”
Here:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
They got too many 0’s on point 2 of the yes flier.
Other than that its accurate.
In fairness, the Yes one is also a total mess, but at least it’s not full of flat-out lies.
Oh come on Stu, it’s not half bad for a school project.
“Oh come on Stu, it’s not half bad for a school project.”
I like to think that even when I was 11 I didn’t get numbers wrong by a factor of 1000…
Cheers, Rev!
Looking at both the leaflets, I think they’d both benefit from actually citing their sources: this not only makes it look like they know what they’re talking about, it also means that readers would be more motivated to look online for further information and context. Also, more quotes: the Yes leaflet’s quoting Cameron was a good example.
@Sam: Now for all you’s saying its lies, we got this information through proper research and yes I have my criticisms as well, I am NOT insulting my school or my friends. A lot of you people are grown adults! Can’t you imagine that the whole of the better together team (consisting of people with an age range 11-18) will be reading your harsh comments?? Think of how crushing it would be for a child to get hate for something they may be so proud of?? Rethink what your saying please and try not to Insult my friends or my school.
Sam, if it means anything to you or your classmates: most of the criticisms I’ve seen levelled here are exactly the same sort I’ve seen given to major unionist politicians and advocates like Alistair Darling, Blair MacDougall, all the way up to David Cameron. So if nothing else, you’re in prominent company.
I will say, however, that calling several of the statements “lies” is not necessarily an attack on your characters, so much as a criticism of the sustained perpetuation of these misconceptions by certain “grown adults” who should know better. For years, countless people genuinely believed that people in the Middle Ages didn’t believe the world was round, simply because that was the popular narrative at the time – that doesn’t make those people liars, simply that the misconception was so widespread that it becomes ingrained. Consequently, several of the statements in the leaflet can and have been debunked, but because of the persistence of these misconceptions, are still repeated.
All we want for our young people is the chance to think, and to get the right information, regardless of their voting intentions – and regardless of your voting intentions, several of the statements in the BT leaflet are incorrect. I don’t doubt that you’ve done the research, but the problem is the information you’ve gathered is inaccurate. You’re the next generation, you deserve better than this.
I like to think that even when I was 11 I didn’t get numbers wrong by a factor of 1000…
My subject is biochemistry. People do that all the time. Graduates, PhDs, even professors. Sometimes patients die, too.
If that’s you’re only gripe (and I agree it’s valid, just not that big a deal in context), it’s not a bad effort. Certainly in comparison to the blatant lies in the other leaflet.
Think of how crushing it would be for a child to get hate for something they may be so proud of?? Rethink what your saying please and try not to Insult my friends or my school.
Sam, dear, welcome to the real world.
If someone is “so proud” of something which is in fact utter and complete rubbish, nobody in this real world is going to give them praise and brownie points to coddle their little egos. It does no good at all to a child to tell him that bad work is good. It fatally damages his ability to buckle down and do good work. If he doesn’t discover this before he leaves school he is in for a hell of a shock.
Also, nobody is giving anyone “hate”. What is being offered is robust, no-holds barred criticism. With a bit of ridicule thrown in, because it’s deserved. If you can’t tell the difference between justified criticism and hate, again you are going to be in serious trouble in your adult life.
Oops. “your” only gripe.
I used to go to Ellon Academy, my modern studies teacher was great though, made us look a lot closer at the incoming Scotland Act and notably the reserved powers.
We ain’t all bad. I’d expect the youth to vote No though and a fair few to not even vote. The youth, remember, are youth. Easily scared and not made their way in the world.
If the ellon yes team can also print off something about the McCrone report, the actual decisions scotland has power over….then that will turn some of them.
Get on it.
It’s a funny thing, though. Even when I was at school, I would have jumped at the chance to vote Yes. I knew without necessarily analysing the economic details that we would be far better off controlling our own resources and our own affairs. I was also, even at that age, bitterly ashamed that my country wasn’t recognised as a country in the internatinoal community – even though I’d never been abroad! And this was before oil was even known about.
And before you ask what sort of a nationalist indoctrination college I was at, I attended the same school as Anas Sarwar, who recently boasted that in a mock referendum there, Yes only got 8%. What has happened to our young people? Even as the country has become stronger and our resources have increased, even as the international advantages of small nation-states that are responsive to their local communities are recognised, even as we watch Norway, a remarkably comparable country that gained its independence in the early 20th century, steam far far ahead of us on practically every measure of health, wealth and happiness that exists, our young people are “scared”.
If this is another “union dividend”, young people with no conficence and no vision, the sooner we’re out of it the better.
Out of curiosity. Did the Yes campaign at the school produce a leaflet?
Wow just read this and I despair if this is the level of debate that Yes will stoop to confront a school project aimed at getting school children involved in the democratic process. I have read both leaflets and I could just as easily rip apart the Yes campaign leaflet. I will only say that it’s claims are also far fetched. However I notice no one chose to do this.
The fact is that both sides in the debate will no doubt have used information produced by the main stream campaigns and rather than savaging the school children’s work you should be tackling the source of the information. I personally find the comments of many here disgusting and tantamount to a group of adults cyber bullying school children and that will only damage the Yes campaign.
@Taranaich Thanks for remembering who produced the leaflet and bringing a more reasoned argument with positive criticism
@ Juteman This leaflet is more serious than Lanarkshire council removing 2 head teachers for allowing ‘Creationism’ to be taught at a school by a US church. Get real they talk about the BT campaign using scare tactics – read your post again… shake my head
@Rev. Stuart Campbell. I thought you would be a voice of reason, providing an intelligent, logical counter argument…. “complete bollocks”… that’s what you’ve got. Love to know which church you preach at and ordained you.
@Morag re your reply to Sam (a school kid)….I.don’t know where to start…I would however suggest professional help
You are all missing the point, you are losing the argument and the comments on this page do the Independence cause no good, I have attached the election results from the Aberdeenshire Web Page proving this point.
link to aberdeenshire.gov.uk
“I have read both leaflets and I could just as easily rip apart the Yes campaign leaflet.”
No you couldn’t. It makes the odd error, but it’s not full of blatant flat-out lies.
“you should be tackling the source of the information”
We do that all day every day. We’ve attempted to find out if the official “Better Together” campaign was involved in or approved the content of the No leaflet, but as usual they refuse to answer any questions. They’re the ones who’ve dropped the kids in it.
“tantamount to a group of adults cyber bullying school children”
Don’t be stupid.
“the election results from the Aberdeenshire Web Page proving this point”
It’s being widely reported that teachers at the school in question distributed No leaflets but failed to give out the Yes ones, so that result might be proof of something altogether more disturbing.
Yes Leaflet
The United Kingdom is the 16th wealthiest country in the world independent Scotland would be the 6th.
This one is close 8th according to this article
link to snp.org
The useless nuclear Trident Missile System cost the Scottish people £130,000,000,000 in tax per year
link to banthebomb.org
link to theguardian.com
No it wouldn’t it would cost the UK, (Scots, English, Welsh and Irish)
In an independent Scotland by 2015 there would be around an additional £19,000,000,000 more in the economy, that’s £4000 per Scot.
Would? based on what data and is this really guaranteed? This same article say the surplus is £824
link to snp.org
In the past 30 years Westminster has taken around £200,000,000,000 of Scotland’s oil money with almost no return for Scotland.
Cant have it both ways we’re not independent yet so it was UK oil revenue, and no one can guarantee what sector would be awarded to an independent Scotland.
link to en.wikipedia.org
The UK is not democratic…etc
We are having a referendum, we have Parliamentary, local and community elections…. if you don’t think were democratic try living in Egypt or Syria
The UK’s economy is expected to grow by 0.3% over the next four years; Scotland’s is expected to grow 2%.
Sounds about right as far as know
Westminster destroys Scotland’s heritage, such as the disbandment of the Gordon Highlanders regiment.
Even if I agreed with this, which I don’t, what do you think will happen to the rest of the Scottish Regiments if there is to be only one Army Brigade in an Independent Scottish Army. I also consider the contribution of Scots within the United Kingdom part of our Heritage
The UK has no regard for international law, with instances such as Iraq, Afghanistan and possibly Syria.
Ridiculous statement, blame a certain Labour PM Yes, but going back to the democratic statement, Parliament voted against action in Syria and the UK is trying to work within the UN
I am not saying these are lies just that they could have spent more time researching the information.
The last two are similar to earlier ones.
Re the information source : BT haven’t dropped the kids in it, you simply haven’t won the argument and will need to up your game to get your message across.
tantamount to a group of adults cyber bullying school children – I have my opinion, you have yours. Others can decide
“the election results from the Aberdeenshire Web Page proving this point” If what you say is correct that would indeed be worrying but Archie points out that the following was issued to the pupils, and I don’t think there was a conspiracy against the Yes campaign. If you do prove your statement.
“Schools Scottish Independence Referendum
This morning, you have received two leaflets – one from the school’s Yes Scotland campaign team and the other from the school’s Better Together team. Please take the time to read the information as you consider which way you intend to vote in the referendum. The school’s referendum will take place on Tuesday 17th September from 9am to 3pm. At registration on the day, you will each receive a polling card. Your teacher will tell you when you are able to go and vote. Voting is in the library and room 101. S6 pupils can vote at any time during the day. Voting is not compulsory. If you want to get involved with either of the campaigns between now and the 17th, the Yes Scotland and Better Together teams alternate day about between rooms 101 and 105 at lunchtimes. Mr XXXXXXX”
In addition both leaflets are on the Aberdeenshire Council Website
Reading the statement they were given the leaflet and had opportunity each lunchtime to get their message across.
“Yes Leaflet”
Lordy, how I wish I had time to pick through that formatting mess and debate it.
I’ve been just catching up with all the posts and am extremely disappointed with some of the views expressed here. Morag, do you ridicule your student’s work? I can’t understand how you think a high school pupil’s work deserves to be ridiculed, what are you hoping to achieve?
“It’s being widely reported that teachers at the school in question distributed No leaflets but failed to give out the Yes ones, so that result might be proof of something altogether more disturbing.” – can you provide a link or evidence of this if it has been “widely reported”? The result (“8,718 pupils who voted no, with 2,847 voting yes”) was across all of the Aberdeenshire schools, not just Ellon academy.
“Lordy, how I wish I had time to pick through that formatting mess and debate it.” – of course you have time, you have just chosen to do something else and not debate it.
You can not blame pupils for taking in and reproducing information given out by either side, it is what they, and the public, are exposed to. The point of these debates at school level isn’t to influence pupils into voting a certain way, it is to get pupils interested in voting and debating, while improving their critical thinking skills. If the pupils have been exposed to contradictory information then hopefully they will do more research themselves.
I’m just glad there are at least a few reasonable posters on here.