The ghost of devo past
Posted on
November 20, 2013 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
We’ve already had a message from the future today. Here’s one from 101 years ago.
Click to see the full story, and heed the tale well, jam-tomorrow fans.
So, it’s not a recent development then.
Enshrined in Scone
Och aye, they’ve been talking about home rule since about 1856. Been deliberately talked out at Westminster a couple of times too – 1914 and 1924 I think.
We’ve seen votes for women, 2 world wars, the end of empire, the advent of the silicon age, man going to the moon and way beyond…and they’re still talking about home rule, or maybe home rule minus. Who knows.
Vote no if you still want Westminster’s overpaid diddies to be talking about it in another 150 years.
Yeah the one in 1914 stinks, until somebody comes up with a better reason, the glorious UK went to war with Germany to stop the Scottish Home Rule bill.
Ive read lots of books , seen zillions of documentary’s , talked to various German’s and nobody but nobody has come up with a decent reason why Queenie Vic’s weans went to war with one another.
Calum
How’s progress with your folks?
2014; the year Scotland finally grows a pair.
Three comments in a row; you can’t do that on Newsnet Scotland.
Sorry, O/T alert.
Pamela Nash’s no show is front and second page in this weeks Airdrie & Coatridge Advertiser, she also get a fair bit of grief in the opinion piece and letters in the centre pages. Things don’t look too good for her as the local Labour party is apparently divided about supporting her.
Real Scots don’t want devolution as its better to be bitter together cos its better being bitter than being better.
© any member of the Labour Party, particularly William Young.
We now have a welsh LABOUR MP (BT) on newsnight to explain what an arse we are making of ourselves by wanting independence. FFS
There’s a simple test. If a Westminster politician promises you devolution/ more devolution/ Devo Plus/ Devo Max/ Home Rule/ Federalism and you can see his or her lips moving then you can be sure they’re lying.
Ms Nash has divided the Airdrie Labour Party for some time. The local agent was a decent guy, even if he did support John Reid. He resigned over the shenanigans related to her selection.
Just when you thought things couldn’t get any worse for Scotland…….
Scotland is estimated to be the largest oil producer and the second largest gas producer in the EU.
link to newsnetscotland.com
@Papadocx
He also confirmed that the Barnett Formula would be ending and a new way of funding the four countries of the UK would be agreed by all the countries.
That would lead to massive cuts to our funding, on top of the Austerity cuts.
First Minister of Wales its been nice meetin you,,
noo fuck off!!!
O/T
Have to mention fascinating speech today from Fiona Hyslop regarding the TV Licence fee and the future of Scottish broadcasting after Independence.
link to news.stv.tv
Carwyn Jones, Noo whit did diddy Dave promise you, let me quess mair money under the new look Barnet Formula , your on tae gooseberry jam, Scotland wiz promised strawberry jam, fek off your times nearly up,
@ caz-m
This is hilarious
A spokesman for the BBC said: “On the question of the future of the BBC, we have stated that we will not enter into any public or private discussions about the future or the shape and nature of our services after the referendum until that referendum has taken place.
“To do so might compromise perceptions of the impartiality and balance of our coverage.”
link to bbc.co.uk
Looks like BT crew are going into panic mode. Welch LABOUR FIRST MINISTER rewarded by new tax powers for agreeing to give BT speech in Edinburgh.
Irish foreign minister to go on newsnicht next week to tell daft jocks BT best plan for Daft Scots? (GB promises to buy more green energy from republic as a thank you)
Seasick Dave says:
How’s progress with your folks?”
We’re talking about it- kind of. My dad buggered off out the country a few weeks back and is not due to return until almost Xmas so I may need to wait til the festive season to address it with him. My mum is still saying nothing, even when I am talking…..
History repeating itself ad nauseum. I like this old Election Leaflet for Keir Hardie. Some things never change….
link to en.wikipedia.org
@Tattie-boggle
I wonder how many will refuse to pay the fee until there is a complete change in personnel. Including Bird, Frazer, Adams, Campbell, Brewer.
After all you will be able to pick up all the channels on satellite tv.
@Papadocx
Is that the same Irish Foreign Minister that the BBC interviewed last year.
@ caz-m
Did you notice the priceless quote from the man from the Scotland Office?
“Any bid by an independent Scotland to make use of existing BBC services or content would have to be negotiated, and the potential impact on the services it provides to the remainder of the UK would need to be taken into account.”
Anyone would think they owned the BBC outright! And what’s all this about potential impact? The only impact is we pay them some money and they let us watch some programmes. Oh, we might have to pay for a bit of maintenance on the transmitters, I suppose…
its a fact of life that people who hold power over u don’t want to relinquish it they will say any thing that gives u doubts to keep themselves in a a well paying position its not a job they do its a career they learned about in uni. free prescriptions bus passes parking in hospitals r a wee bit different from westminsters policies, a first minister that will give way on independence
“Any bid by an independent Scotland to make use of existing BBC services or content would have to be negotiated, and the potential impact on the services it provides to the remainder of the UK would need to be taken into account.”
Whit-aboot the shippin’ forecast?
“On the question of the future of the BBC, we have stated that we will not enter into any public or private discussions about the future or the shape and nature of our services after the referendum until that referendum has taken place.
To do so might compromise perceptions of the impartiality and balance of our coverage.”
We need answers…whit-aboot the shippin’ forecast?
My, daybreaks coverage of the London papers, surprisingly included the Daily Record (must be a first), just to highlight the wee front page article, near the bottom, about the Welsh veto scare. Nice of them to discover one of our so called newspapers after all this time and hope to see coverage of all the Scots papers on a regular basis from now on as there are lots of other interesting things to report up here.
Home Rule
Path not taken? A lost opportunity from a long time ago when one or two parties hereabouts had a principle or two. The parties though caught on early that it was never going to happen. Oh they kept it on their books well past its sell by date, just to keep the voters in tow. But really, if it was ever truly on their to do list it would have been a done deal long since. Yet still there are those who believe that devolution will produce home rule or some version thereof and both Labour and the Lib dems aren’t in a hurry to disabuse them.
Their voters want Scotland to run its own affairs, they want Scotland to be a partner on these islands and not a servant. I think that’s a good idea, that’s just how it should be, but devolution won’t deliver that and neither will a non existent home rule. If the devo max or undecided voter want this future there’s only one guaranteed way to deliver it. They should think along the lines of a confederation, a beefed up council of Britain with an independent Scotland as an equal partner. See the thing is, as an independent Scotland, that is a choice of direction which they could urge their collective parties to take. A choice that would be in their hands.
Outwith independence, the parties drive the agenda and devolution will strangle Holyrood and self determination. The claim of right will be a well meaning concept and Westminster WILL slowly and surely attempt to dismember everything we’ve gained in the past ten years. If you think these welfare reforms are stiff. If you think this is austerity, then brace yourself for round two if we vote no next year.
‘Exactly the same together’ … or just a cross on a piece of paper and it can all change for good.
O/T – How nice to see Lord John McFall (?) squirming and avoiding questions on Labours links to CO -OP Bank fiasco ! Great Breakfast TV (ITV)
O/t, sorry so early into the thread.
Evidence of yet more mainstream media bias this morning – from an unexpected source.
Daybreak on ITV at 0644 this morning. Normally they run through the English newspaper headlines. This morning however, the English presenter said words to the effect of (and I paraphrase) ‘I just want to show you the Scottish newspaper the DailtyRecord today, to show you this; the Welsh First Minister has said the Scots can’t use the pound, telling them to keep their hands of my pound’. The presenter then said with a grin, keep your hands off the quid.
The first point to note, is that the story is not even the largest of the front page of the record, it is really small. Secondly, I cannot remember them ever showing ANY Scottish newspaper headline before.
Be assured, the ENGLISH media is ready and willing to propagandise against Scottish democracy and the UN recognised right to self dtermination.
Just stick to Margo’s principle.
‘Convert one person and we’re home.’
That’s all we have to do …convert one person to a ‘Yes’ vote. Do that. We win.
That is our main mission next summer.
Just heard the softest interview ever on GMS with D Fraser ” interrogating” Welsh FM. The guy was given the usual carte blanche to spout all sorts of rubbish Unchallenged. Naughtie said afterwards that the Scot Gov had been invited to comment after 8 in response but have not as yet replied? Why bother dignify such pish and get the Mr nasty treatment from the London so called big hitter. Leave him to interview mrs smiths cat up a tree and hone his debating skills instead.
What has Westminster ever done for Scotland?
It gave us;
1.Thatcher
2. Blair
3. The 40% rule
4. Trident
5. The NHS and is now intent on destroying it.
6. Boom and bust
7. The banking collapse
8. Poll Tax
9. Bedroom Tax
10. Austerity
11. HS 2
12. Expenses scandal
13. Millionaires Cameron, Clegg and Miliband
14. Dr-industrialisation
15. Etonian governance
16. Tory governments
17. Tuition fees
18. Illegal wars
.
.
.
.
Bunter,
Yeah, I also saw the nonsense on ITV Daybreak this morning. They never usually even mention Scottish newspapers, yet choose this ONE story, which is anti independence, regarding the unionist Labour First Minister of Wales spouting demonstrable rubbish.
Denmark or any other country could choose to use the Pound Sterling as their currency tomorrw, without even telling London. It is not the USE of pound Sterling, rather a currency union that is being discussed. However, the English media such as ITV Daybreak will keep on spreading the lies that London has some imaginary power to prevent ANY country using Pound Sterling (it doesn’t), and that the British Pound Sterling belongs only to England (it actually also belongs to Scotland).
Apologies.
I meant to say ‘Convert one person each …and we’re home’
If it was just one single person ….by god, we would be laughing!!
@Bunter
Yeah heard the same interview. Now a Welshman spouting about how you can still be “proud” and “patriotic” still got your football and rugby teams. FFS do they think thats what its all about and we are that stupid !!!
This guys has been given stacks more airtime than yesterdays same sex marriage debate and vote.
@Robert Louis
Happily RL the Welsh FM doesn’t get to have a say in the matter. Reactionary politics at its best. Its freaky how this week has been all about fiscal carnage in the press as presented by the opposition. You’d think they were afraid of something imminent. 🙂
Watch the other assemblies for some quality sound bites in the coming weeks/months. Methinks big brother may be encouraging their intervention. Mr Jones especially will be the more vocal of the other two.
Let’s see.
– England attacking Scotland (Tory led Government).
– NI attacking Scotland (unionists)
– Wales attacking Scotland (Welsh Labour Government)
The end of the union is nigh. We are rapidly reaching the point where Scotland will have no choice but to vote for independence. Friendless within the union and attacked from all sides, it is being driven out. For some reason, unionists can’t see that’s what they are doing.
”
In a statement BBC Scotland said: “On the question of the future of the BBC, we have stated that we will not enter into any public or private discussions about the future or the shape and nature of our services after the referendum until that referendum has taken place.
“To do so might compromise perceptions of the impartiality and balance of our coverage.”
Oh! Ma sides!! Was that said with a straight face I wonder.
Have they a vision in their head of an upright ,honest broadcaster?
If they have ,I have to tell them it’s no them!
@scottish_skier
That’s how it looks skier. For the life of me I don’t get it either as a strategy, but their belligerence and down right animosity is there for all to see. They really don’t like the idea of Scots calling the shots for themselves and are bound and determined to put us in our place. Were it me I’d be going out of my way to let the people know how valued they were, offer some real live guarantees on governmental overhaul, hell even drag the old home rule book out of the crypt and dust it down. Not start making poorly veiled threats and rattle sabres in their faces.
Jeez even if and I do mean IF they won, could you imagine just what kind of UK would be left after all that acrimony? Do they really think treating people as they have that it would be an end of the matter? I’d say to them to have a real hard think about their actions and that its not too late to treat this debate with some respect, but I think I’d have better luck talking to a stone.
I grew up in the Thatcher era. I remember leaving school and being unemployed for years. I remember the dark days before the Scottish parliament. How we had to fight for everything we’ve got – marches in Edinburgh, Rallies in Glasgow – Scotland United. Remember that? How chuffed I was when we got quality Scottish Sunday newspapers (what happened there?). Point is the young one’s don’t realize how far we’ve come and how far we will fall if we lose next September.
The Labour Welsh FM wants to cut our pocket money by 4 billion a year. FFS They’ll be closing hospitals and schools all over the place! Not so much “Vote No OR you’re gettin’ a doin'” and more “Vote No AND you’re gettin’ a doin'”
@CazM
There’s an article in the Guardian today about how Barnet must go. England is SO underfunded and those Scots and Norn Irish just subsidy junkies.
link to theguardian.com
Well, there’s been another managerial muddle over at Pacific Quay. The Labour apparatchik Welsh FM somehow found himself as the BBC’s lead story. Then his remarks about the Barnett Formula were discussed by Labour apparatchiks Jo Armstrong and Jim Gallagher. Oh, what a muddle they’re in!
If it weren’t for people like ex BBC employee Derek Bateman assuring us this isn’t deliberate people might start asking questions.
O/T Arrogance/Ignorance alert!
link to spectator.co.uk
There is one positive passage though.
“Salmond has a reputation as a formidable late-stage campaigner, and even some of David Cameron’s closest advisers think a victory for him next year is not just possible but probable”
But then goes on to liken Scotland as a principality!!!!
This article is crying out for correction. You can sign in using your disqus account.
Training Day is spot on
Another example (GMS at 8.15 am) this morning of BBC Radio Scotland impartiality under James Naughtie’s supervision when at 8.15 the two neutral “experts” chosen to discuss the Welsh First Minister’s intervention and attacking the use of Sterling as currency were Jo Armstrong and Jim Gallagher.
Of course no reference was made of their political connections whereas BBC always at pains to mention George Kerevan’s SNP connections.
Ms Armstrong who was an adviser to another Labour First Minister Jack McConnell is a supporter of PPP and the privatising of Scottish Water,
link to joanmcalpine.typepad.com
Jim Gallagher, who acted as secretary of the Calman Commission as the “independent” adviser on the Scotland Bill, was chosen by former Prime Minister Gordon Brown to oversee devolution, is known to be hostile to the Scottish parliament gaining more powers and oversaw the writing of the Bill meaning he has overseen the Bill from all points of input. He penned an article for The Telegraph with the title: “Why the Scotland Bill is good news for England”
Call Kaye on about Welsh and Northern Ireland having a say on Scotland’s self determination.
scottish_skier ,
I wholly agree. the anti-Scottish rhetoric is now so loud that surely Scots must all be thinking why on earth would we ever for one second want to remain in a ‘union’ with such people. Yet doon in London toon, they think slagging off Scotland will win the referendum.
Apparently we are set for yet another ‘doom and gloom’ report from Westminster today on defence, no doubt re-asserting the tired old nonsense that Scotland is ‘too poor, too wee and too stupid’ (yet other smaller countries manage just fine) to defend themselves without the magnificence and benevolence of England.
As somebody who wants the restoration of Scottish independence, I do hope they continue with their current strategy.
OMG
BBC Radio Scotland now has a English Councillor from Huddersfield complaining that Scotland is being subsidised by England via the Barnett Formula and repeating the Labour line that more money should go to local councils.
I suppose we just have to get used to the State Broadcaster’s propaganda increasing throughout next year.
The Welsh FM is a Labour place man.
Wales is underfunded £1Billion. Scotland is underfunded £5Billion plus.
The Welsh FM supports funding illegal wars, Trident,tax evasion, banking fraud and illegal surveillance. Socialist?
Ken500,
If the Welsh Labour First Minister is a socialist, then so too is David Cameron. The Welsh First Minister should worry about his massive NHS underfunding crisis in Wales, thanks to Westminster, rather than jaunting up to Scotland on an awayday return to spout patronising abuse of the Scottish people.
Away back to Wales with you, Mr.Jones. Scotland needs people like you, like a hole in the head.
@Panda Paws
I love the way they casually quote the report from the IFS as fact. We will not only have savage cuts to our funding because of the ending of the Barnett Formula, but more austerity cuts on top.
Then, what funding we have left will be sent to local government authorities to run hospitals, schools, universities, care for elderly, etc…
The whole point being, that it would make the Scottish Parliament redundant.
And it will be like that for the next 300 years.
“NO” voters, dont say you weren’t told.
Jeez even if and I do mean IF they won, could you imagine just what kind of UK would be left after all that acrimony?
Yes. To save the union, London should really be releasing a series of reports entitled ‘The Economic Benefits of the Union‘ and ‘Options for Enhanced Scottish Devolution within the Union‘ etc. These would be countering the Scottish government’s proposals for independence. Instead, the UK government / unionists just attack Scotland and the concept of independence offering nothing positive.
With 1/3 indy / 1/3 devo max / 1/3 No, support for the union in it’s current form is very, very weak. With trust (to act in Scotland’s interests) levels in the Scottish Government up to 70% (and satisfaction with the SNP up to 60%) with mid teen levels only for the UK government, unless we see a sudden change in tactics from Westminster, then it’s all over. Screaming insults and threats at someone is not the best way to keep them at your party.
No has over halved the poll lead it had in late 2012 with a referendum held tomorrow likely to be extremely close. That’s not mainly down to YesScotland, but as a result of the pro-union campaign itself. Yes are still largely warming up; the campaign proper begins as we move into 2014.
It was always going to be this way. The British Establishment knows no other. The same tactics have been used in various forms every time a country started to seek independence/autonomy from London rule. You’d have thought they’d learn from that. But no.
Total revenues raised in Scotland £60Billion. More than enough for all Scotland’s needs. Scotland gets £48Billion back. (including pensions/benefits £17Billion) Scotland pays £4Billion on debt repayments it doesn’t borrow or spend.
Total revenues raised in the UK £610Billion (including £40Royal Mail theft?)
Westminster spends £720Billion. £120Billion more than it raises.
Scotland is the only one paying it’s way.
Not sure if anyone has seen this
Some unionist troll has created a hate page on Facebook attacking Ale Salmond and Alistair Carmichael , according to the Herald has requested it be taken down
Herald link link to archive.is
Facebook page link to archive.is
The Barnett formula propaganda is just more lies to cover up Westminster gross mismanagement.
Total panic and desperation.
I should note that the strangely low Yes values in face to face TNS polling (also to an extent in MORI telephone) is down to these attacks on Scotland. SoSfS Alistair Carmichael is correct in that people are lying to pollsters; saying DK or even No when they plan to vote Yes. You can see it in the data. It was nice to have a prominent unionist confirm what I’ve been saying for a long time now, even if he was wrong in his reasons as to why this was happening.
Bloody ‘Call Kaye’
Decorating at the moment, and decided to tune in.
We had a Welsh boy on, who gave his opinion that people from NI and Wales should have a say on Scottish Independence. Kaye, then interviewed a Scots Nationalist woman, who gave her opinion. As she began to give her reasons, Kaye cut right in, and told her, ‘Sorry, we need to go to the news’. That was it! The poor woman was silenced.
As soon as the news was over, Kaye decided to talk about bullying. There was no apologies, and let us return to the poor woman who was cut off. Eventually, we did return to her …7 minutes after being cut off. Shocking.
Seriously, don’t tell me Kaye is not a Unionist. This happens all the time on her show.
According to the Guardian. Manchester 1.5milkuon gets 2.3Billuon. Glasgow/Edinburgh 1million each get £1Billion each.
There are reports there will be no cuts to London’s budget.
@Linda’s Back
Actually that one is quite helpful. It goes to demonstrate what many, if not all of us, have been saying to undecideds for the past two years.
Devolution has failed to deliver what they want.
Not only that, there is now growing support to roll it back to a glorified Scottish Office. Who do you think will win any argument against such a move in Commons? The Scottish MPs, some of which openly support this move already?
For the undecided: its started already, before a ballot paper has even been issued, they are calling for devolution to be rolled back. As the Rev would put it ‘don’t say you weren’t warned’.
@ JLT
I won’t tell you that Kaye Adams isn’t a Unionist but I will tell you that Kaye Adams isn’t on the radio this morning. It’s Louise somebody or other. Same tune though.
They’re trying an unusual angle here though – Vote No, Get Less.
Bubbles,
I know. I know, mate. I seem to be making mistake after mistake today! Just found that out about 5 minutes ago. I keep having to walk away from the radio to get bits and bobs. Overall, the two ladies sound almost alike.
I’m not having a good day! I am sick to the back teeth of painting! Two bathrooms, a hallway, and now a Utility Room. By God, the wife has got her money’s worth out of me this week!
@S_S
Do you know if the telephone polling companies use local tele-callers for these polls.
When I’m discussing independence with English folk I’m conscious that they may see a YES vote as in some way being anti-English so I’m careful to point out thats not the case.
Never been polled, but I suspect you don’t get the chance to explain this in a telephone poll, so if the caller had an English accent I can see that could sway the direction of the answers.
@alexicon
It’s worth quoting the Spectator’s actual words:
It is, of course, true that Scotland is big enough to be independent. So is Andorra, and the other principalities who can be seen popping up to vote in the Eurovision song contest.
It’s not so much the comparison with Andorra – it’s the snide reference to ‘popping up to vote in the Eurovision’ that’s truly offensive. That’s all an independent Scotland is good for, eh? Why they make this kind of remark, God alone knows.
@kininvie.
Yep, I did edit my comment and removed “sort of”. The original: “There is one sort of positive passage though.”
Pure arrogance and ignorance, but what do you expect?
Great response on call Kaye (with an e) from someone
who ended his comment on Carwyn Jones’s unwarranted intervention by addressing Kaye (with an e) as “SWEETHEART”
a ended masel, while her teeth grinding could be clearly heard
next caller she said “please don’t call me sweetheart”
gaun yersel bigman 🙂
Stuck my tuppence worth in on the Spectator Alexicon
Just a further update on the Facebook hate page I reported further up
I sent a complaint to facebook and this is what I got back :
You reported Alex Salmond is a deluded wanker . for containing hate speech or symbols.
Status
This page wasn’t removed
Thank you for taking the time to report something that you feel may violate our Community Standards. Reports like yours are an important part of making Facebook a safe and welcoming environment. We reviewed the page you reported for containing hate speech or symbols and found it doesn’t violate our Community Standards.
Note: If you have an issue with something on the page, be sure to report the content (ex: a photo), not the entire page. That way, your report will be more accurately reviewed.
Good to see facebook don’t bother with such things, I wonder if they would feel the same if it were about Cameron or the Queen. No doubt about it, they are happy for such scum pages to exist
I really hope Team Yes finally bring the big guns out and start moving. It seems that there’s less and less time left and there’s still no action other than them keeping their powder dry.
Facebook definitely monitor and delete posts if they are anti royal etc. I saw it with my own eyes when an ex sas soldier made at speech at the Oxford union very recently on how he would never fight for queen and country again. It was a great speech but totally disappeared without trace.
On another note I am reading John MacCormick’s Flag in the Wind, which is all about the fight for what was called then home rule, it’s interesting to read about how people came to realise it could actually be a reality, the same nonsense of too wee etc was used against it of course.
Robert Lous says:
“Be assured, the ENGLISH media is ready and willing to propagandise against Scottish democracy and the UN recognised right to self determination.”
We saw that as an absolute fact this week. Full broadside from the whole UK media.
Now Labour MP Carwyn (what’ll we do without the Scottish subsidy?) Jones trundling up to tell us that if we stay in the union we’ll get less money but that we’ll have a strong union. Huh? Oh, and if we vote to leave the union he’ll stop us using the pound. I never thought of the Welsh as a vindictive people, I’m sure it’s only the labour party welsh that think that way.
There really is a sense of desperation in the union camp.
Macart @scottish_skier
“could you imagine just what kind of UK would be left after all that acrimony? “
Maybe we could crowdsource a copy of “How to Win Friends and Influence people” for them £5.18 on a favorite south american sounding onlince retailer. We could probably put it on expenses.
The old man lying in the grass, looks like Harry Lauder, sadly Harry Lauder lost his only son in the great war of 1914-1918, and wrote (Keep right on to the end of the road) to show his pain of losing his son, to an empirical war.
independence will see no more of Scotlands sons killed, in empirical wars.
@X_Sticks
A copy to each of the current party leaders and two for Lamont (one an abridged version in large script). 🙂
I think this proves there are no separate Labour entities in Scotland or Wales, they are just operating on remote control from London. Funny, they even sound like the Tories, giving condescending lectures to all and sundry.
@Macart
“one an abridged version in large script”
The two page one that says:
DO NOT LIE TO PEOPLE YOU WANT TO INFLUENCE
DO NOT CHEAT PEOPLE YOU WANT TO BE FRIENDS WITH
DO NOT DENIGRATE PEOPLE YOU WANT TO VOTE FOR YOU
That one?